Balance, Not Tangents -- CALLING ALL FORUM MEMBERS

Great teaching from George Verwer (Founder of OM) on the subject of balance and extremism in the Christian life. This will help keep us on the straight and narrow road, and to not go off on tangents(dead end streets).I request that all members of this forum go and listen. George's wisdom could save us all a lot of trouble.Balance, Not Tangents - MP3

Many people on this forum are going down some of the dead end streets that George speaks about in this message. Yet this thread has so quickly fallen to the bottom. Please, give it a listen--Adam

Very timely message.. Well worth the listen.This man speaks from decades of experience.Greg

I was thrilled to hear George Verwer again. I have always appreciated hearing his insight. Here are a few point I drew from this message: Some Tangents which can pull us towards extremism: Ego tripsEmotionalism Signs/wonders/miraclesLocal church (to exclusion of valuing Parachurch ministries)LegalismLiberty cultProsperityPerfectionism We need to balance between: Principles of the word of God and policies of the organizationZeal and wisdomWork and recreation Fellowship and worshipChurch life and family lifeFaith and common senseAnointing and trainingSpiritual warfare and restSubmission and freedomLove and truth“We must develop a bit of reverent skepticism in order to keep from being drawn into extremism. “Adam, I suspect that after you’ve been hanging out here for a while, you might find yourself developing more balanced perception of SI. Because of the large variety of folk who engage in dialogue, this is one of the best places I know where one can develop balance. You can be sure, if you are leaning a little to far to the left, it isn’t long before someone will be giving you a tug towards the right. Diane

:-D

Balance, Not Tangents Annie, are you O.K.?

Lucky for you, I transcripted this message last week!Here you go! http://everydaymadenew.blogspot.com/2006/03/spiritual-balance-not-tangents-by.html

Thanks, Allan for the transcription. I prefer the written form, and especially like it when the main thoughts are highlighted.That ways they stick better in my mind. (Now, there's another challenge for you!) It is our human tendency to pull a swinging pendulum too far over, in our attempt to stop the momentum. It's a blessing to recall that a lot of these points have been touched on in various discussions - even since I started here last year. Diane

We must not use anything we hear though to judge others burdens ... because others will come back at us and say we're obsessesed with Revival or what Classic Authors say or men in general about what The Word says ... ya know ... here we go again ... saying 'my burden' is more SPECIAL than yours.Annie, though G Verwer did not cover this point, he did say that those who are zealous for God are more inclinded to drift into extremism. True, an imbalanced burden for revival can lead us into tangents, as was discussed in the Revival Idolatry thread. Yet, we can misjudge the apparent "extremism" of others, as you say by comparing them to OUR position. What looks balanced may be extremism (the logical Pharisees), but what looks unbalanced may actually be well-ballanced. (someone who weeps a lot) 1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: 2a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, 3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, 4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, 5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, 6 a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, 7 a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, 8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. from Ecclesiastes 3 Diane

We must not use anything we hear though to judge others burdens ... because others will come back at us and say we're obsessesed with Revival or what Classic Authors say or men in general about what The Word says ... ya know ... here we go again ... saying 'my burden' is more SPECIAL than yours.Amen sister.......Blessings in Him, Cindy

Annie, though G Verwer did not cover this point, he did say that those who are zealous for God are more inclinded to drift into extremism. Good point... Maybe the question becomes, "Whose" 'balance'?It comes up frequently enough in the thought train, but never more so pronounced than perhaps when going in and through and back out again of certain seasons; The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Joh 3:8

Good point... Maybe the question becomes, "Whose" 'balance'?Amen, one man's "balance" is another man's "extreem". And those who press on to know the Lord will always be viewed by some as "unbalanced" if they don't follow or go along with the "status quo".But there is a proper balance in the Christian life as seen in the Lord Himself and reproduced in the apostles and ministered through them to all the churches.If we would be "balanced" we need to be much in the Word of God, much in praying through the Word of God, that we may: "grow up in all things into Christ who is the Head, out from whom the whole body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation of the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love."Our indwelling Lord is the Balanced One. And to the degree we are one with the Head, to that degree we exibit that proper balance as clearly seen in the scriptures.Graftedbranch

wow, if you guys agree with george verwer's balanced teaching then no need to listen to wesley, ravenhill and finney's preaching because they preach on Christ perfection (sinless life) wich i believe too. i believe in romans 6, 7, 8. i believe we can have a pure heart and mind. Jesus told the pharisee's that they clean the outside cup, but forsake cleaning the inside where greed and lust are hidden. this is called legalism. focusing on the outer appearance and forsaking the cleansing of the heart. it doesn't matter how clean you look on the outside, that you stop watching t.v. and that your full of good works, God sees the heart. a person full of good works could still have a heart that is full of lust, envy, and jelousy making his work a stench to God.Luke 11:39 (New King James Version)New King James Version (NKJV)39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Jesus came to save us FROM sin not in sin.Matthew 1:21 (New King James Version)New King James Version (NKJV)21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people FROM their sins.”this article by andrew strom is a good example of sinless life."SINLESS" - an INCIDENT that I EXPERIENCED-by Rita.Your recent topic of 'sinless' reminded me of something that theHoly Spirit showed me.I was fasting for three days and half way through the fast I was inthe Christian School photocopying. One of the teachers came intothe office and gave me a piece of birthday cake and a cup of coffee,explaining that it was one of the pupil's birthday and they haddecided to cut the cake mid-morning and celebrate. Without athought I ate the cake and upon swallowing the last mouthful I wasovercome. I suddenly realised I was fasting! Not only was I fasting,I was exactly half way through a three day fast. I said to the Lord,"No! I am so sorry. I am half way through the fast you told me todo. What shall I do? -Start from here for another three days, orshall I stop and start again tommorrow?" I was so upset. And theLord answered and said to me, "I did not see it." I said, "What doyou mean?" At first I thought he was being kind. But He said, "Idid not see. Your intention had not been to do this and your heartis innocent before me." I was amazed by this.It took a few days to realise that the Lord truly meant I was withoutsin. It was not that I had sinned and repented - it was that I wasfollowing God and communing with him - an error did not count. Iwas set free and the lesson I learnt was about being sinless andthe freedom and joy that brought me. I realised that my body hadsinned almost by automation, but I had not sinned. I had notdeliberately rebelled against God and my intention was not todestroy. I know that lesson was the purpose of the fast.ANDREW STROM AGAIN: This is one of the most vital secretsto walking "sinless" before the Lord. -It is pure "Romans 7". Ritasays (above), "I realised that my body had sinned almost byautomation, but I had not sinned. I had not deliberately rebelledagainst God." In other words, her heart and her "inner man" werestill walking in 'innocence' before the Lord - because there wasno DELIBERATE or "KNOWING" sin. And God actually said toher, "I did not see it." So during this whole process of committing'outward' error and stumbling, her heart remained pure before theLord. Therefore from God's viewpoint, she had DONE NOTHINGWRONG - and was still walking in "heart-purity" before Him.Do you realize what incredible liberty and freedom is in thisone principle, my friends? We can walk FREE FROM SIN! Wecan walk "clean" before God! It is the "inner man" that we needto keep clean.Does this mean that we are allowed to just go and sin 'outwardly'then? No - not at all. Then we would be "KNOWINGLY" sinning.The whole point of this is that we do not DELIBERATELY orKNOWINGLY sin. Therefore we remain pure of heart. It becomesour 'natural' state of being. -To walk this way.Note that we must have gone through 'DEEP REPENTANCE'and have an inbuilt "HATRED OF SIN" to even start to walk inthis. Otherwise it simply will not work. We also (of course) needthe Holy Spirit!What freedom - what liberty - if we can simply walk before Godin the "inner man" with no known sin. That's what this is all about!It is the free gift of God in Christ Jesus. Thankyou, Father!"The secret of backsliding is, that reformations are not carried deep enough. Christians are not set with all their hearts to aim at a speedy deliverance from all sin, but on the contrary are left, and in many instances taught, to indulge the expectation that they shall sin as long as they live."-Charles G. Finney

Does this mean that we are allowed to just go and sin 'outwardly'then? No - not at all. Then we would be "KNOWINGLY" sinning.The whole point of this is that we do not DELIBERATELY or KNOWINGLY sin. Therefore we remain pure of heart.This is a good example of extremism. Those who hold this view can indeed regard themselves as 'sinless" But ask their spouse or work associates about them, and you may discover that they may have a more balanced view of the "saint". Diane

Have you ever noticed that our world tends to admire very unbalanced people. They may have one extraordinary talent, have made outstanding acheivements in a certain area, have been the best something in the world... But they may have grave emotional or relational weaknesses, they may have a failed marriage. They may have absolutely no ability to tend to the ordinary maintanance needs of their home. They may lack social skills.Generally speaking well- balanced people are very ordinary people. Diane

diane,if you disagree and call me a extremist (going beyond the word), please use the word and not someone else's experiences. lets look at Jesus and not man. we know if we look at man we will see many errors because many lack faith in Jesus. we need to stop looking at man's weaknesses and look to Jesus's strenght and promises. someone mention that Jesus and the apostles look well balanced. are you seriouse? i know definetly to the lost they would look like lunatics. Jesus defintely looked way out there with the pharisees. many wanted to kill Him. the prophets defintely were not well balance. they got persecuted for being too zealouse and truthful. those verses i posted, what does that mean then? explain romans 6.

if you disagree and call me a extremistI did not call you an extremist. I was referring to the one quote that I copied. It is an example of how good teachings can go overboard - much to the destruction of the testimony of Christ. I will attempt to explain further: Non-Christians can often see sin in Christians that the Christians are blind to, or excuse behind a blanket of "I am perfect in Christ" To say that only CONSCIOUS sin is wrong is rediculous. Most of the root sins of our faulty behaviors and responses in life are unconscious. If they remain unconscious to us, they will eventually destroy us. The Spirit brings them into our conscious awareness so that we can see them and admit them (confession). That is a needed step towards change and maturity. Perfectionism is one extreme: denial. The other extreme is obsession with faults. Both extemes, if carried to their ultimate end can lead to emotional/mental breakdown - psychosis on one hand (there is nothing wrong with me, it's everybody else, it's not my fault, I'm not responsible), or neurosis (everything is wrong with me, it's all my fault, I am a horrible person, I keep failing, I will never be able to measure up, anxiety etc)People typically develop a doctrine that overcompensates for a legitamate concern.***Consider these thoughts - descriptions of the pendulum swing into extremes: George Finney was a remarkable revivalist, used by God to bring countless to Christ. He also produced some excellent, helpful writings, that we aught to read. However, some of his teachings distorted the purity of the Gospel message in an attempt to control the sinful passions. In his article, Holiness Essential to Salvation, he prescribed a high standard of sanctification and then stated "in proportion as they recede from this they fail of salvation". Finney's Sabbath laws were many; for example, "abstinence of all amusements, and abstinence from walking or riding abroad for exercise." I believe that while it is important to strive for holiness it can subtly become a doctrine of works. And the gospel message is no longer preached. Harry Ironside (1876-1951), an itinerant preacher and author, shared in his biography, his experience in the Holiness Movement during the early twentieth century. Early in his ministry, he zealously promoted holiness teachings, and was eager to achieve this high level of perfection. However, he soon came to see that the teachings had some negative effects on people. He wrote: "It left a tremendous train of spiritual derelicts" Pg 89 , A Biography, H A Ironside. Ironside saw disillusioned failures, emotional wrecks, and people who abandoned the faith entirely because they felt that they could never measure up. He also saw many "living in cunningly concealed hypocrisy", trying to hide the fact that they were falling short. In his own attempts to attain this sanctified state, Ironside was constantly nagged by his own imperfections. Eventually, in total frustration, he left the ministry, believing that he was a bad example. Prior to this he had been preaching four hundred sermons a year. He even considered giving up and following the way of the world. The Holy Spirit restored him by revealing to him that he had been focusing on himself all along, and not trusting in the good news. Ironside came to the realization that the grace of Christ was sufficient. As a result, he became an outstanding preacher of the gospel. The Brethren MovementIronside's book, Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement, describes their many struggles to preserve the gospel. The founders of the Brethren Movement had left powerful religious institutions with controlling hierarchies, so that they could form a fellowship where people could be free to practice their faith under the authority of the Holy Spirit. The Brethren were also zealous to achieve righteous living and correct doctrine. However, because of their zeal, dissension and splits plagued their churches - usually over interpretations of doctrine and life style rules. Ironside observed: "The Brethren were remarkable people for rightly dividing the Word and wrongly dividing themselves" and "They were very particular about breaking bread, but very careless about breaking hearts." Nevertheless, in spite of this perpetual weakness in the movement, God did not stop blessing these Brethren believers and instead, he often used them for his glory. Many of them preached a genuine gospel message.Diane

o.k. diane, lets stop lookig at man and lets look at God's words.what does it mean to walk in the Spirit? are we sinning when we walk in the Spirit? paul says that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fullfill the lust of the flesh. we know if we are giving to idols, covetness, jelousies, ect...we are walking in flesh and NOT in the Spirit as gal. 5:19 list the works of flesh.1 john 3:20 says if our hearts does not condemn us, we have confidence towards God.....we are condemned in the flesh so if our heart does not condemn us we are walking in the Spirit (rom. 8:1). our heart is pure giving us confidence toward God to know whatever we ask we shall receive.1 John 3:20-22 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.Romans 8:1 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.Jesus says He came to save us FROM OUR SINS. His grace enables us to live without sin. the Spirit who lives in us helps us to overcome the flesh IF we choose to believe and abide in Him (john 15:4-5).Matthew 1:21 21"She will bear a Son; and (A)you shall call His name Jesus, for He (B)will save His people FROM THEIR SINS.'1 John 5:4 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith. this is why many christians are so bound with sin because they do not believe in Jesus's promises. thru man it is impossible, but thru God all things are possible, IF we believe! we have the victory over sin. praise Jesus! He has made away for us to live godly and escape the corruption in the world thru lust!diane, please meditate on these verses in 2 peter.2 Peter 1-10 2 Peter 1Greeting the Faithful 1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.Fruitful Growth in the Faith 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.SELAH2 Corinthians 3:17 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.God bless,lisa

sorry meagain, i thought i did address it. diane understood and thats why she responded. i thought i was clear, i guess not. read my last post to diane. yes....i believe in Jesus's promises for us... i believe that He came to save us from our sins and made away for us to overcome/escape all sins. He has enable us thru His Spirit to live a sinless life as we abide in Him daily.paul says in galations that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, meaning if we do have jelosy, anger, ect its because we are in the flesh, and not His Spirit. Jesus would not command us to do something that would be far reaching.Jesus says that if we do not abide in Him we can do nothing. so we must abide in Him daily to overcome all things, without Him we will fail, we will fall back to the lust of the flesh. why did He send us a Helper? flesh can't overcome, but his Spirit is our helper to help us overcome, if we believe.i hope this is clear.i so believe this is an important doctrine to teach because it gives us hope, knowing we can live in full deliverence of all things (true liberty). that Jesus has made away for us to be set free from all bondages. He has not left us in sin, but has overcome for us that if we believe we will overcome thru Him.

prayerbone wrote:hi all..i listened to george's sermon today had never heard him..i liked him he reminded me of ray comfort a lot in style..so i looked at his site and is blog,was interested to find this quote on is daily blogI had the joy of meeting Rick and Kay Warren about two years ago. They are humble servants and people of God. I have followed their ministry for years and read some of their material which is being used of the Lord.Yet, I discover there is a campaign by some people to discredit them. Someone even sent me an anti-Rick Warren tape. Why are Christians so ready to criticize and pick apart Christian leaders? It’s very sad!I believe Charles Swindoll’s book The Grace Awakening would help set free from this judgmentalism. i'm normally the last person to raise questions about other christians,what with my own walk being so precarious..but it seems to me his statements closes any avenue of discernment,and if anyone does there neatly fobbed off as critcal or judgemental..i'm aware of many christian who feel very unsettled about the all rick warren thing and there far from judgemental just concerned..andyI would have to disagree with this. Although I'm sure you had the best intentions...I have met George personally and he is a very discerning, prayerful man of God.I can see how you get this image of him, amidst the discussion of balance, grace, and judgementalism-- but let me assure you the image you have is false. George loves people, loves God, and is not afraid to say things how it is to the church.Consider Paul's attitude toward others who were preaching Christ "from envy and strife" and "selfish ambition".Phillipians 1:15-18,5Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; 16the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; 17the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. 18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,Paul simply rejoiced that Christ was being proclaimed! He felt no need to refute their ministry, and defend his own.George Verwer is not endorsing Rick Warrens books. He simply has the attitude of Paul-- George is rejoicing that never the less Christ is being preached!Blessings to you.Adam

i so believe this is an important doctrine to teach because it gives us hope, knowing we can live in full deliverence of all things (true liberty). that Jesus has made away for us to be set free from all bondages. He has not left us in sin, but has overcome for us that if we believe we will overcome thru Him.In my career as a music teacher I see many parallels to the spiritual life. Some musicians are content with a very low level of achievement. They have no vision for anything much greater than where they are. They don’t care to make sacrifices in order to grow musically. They just want to play what they feel like. They think that they are good enough. I think they are very mediocre. (Compare this to the extreme of libertarianism) Some want to be the “sinless” musician – follow all the instructions and obey every marking and play flawlessly. They are afraid of making mistakes. But in order to remain perfect they have to remain at a grade one level for the rest of their lives. I say to them, “If you can do it perfectly, you don’t need me.” I can see (but they don’t) a far greater level that they could attain if they were willing to take risks – and be less than perfect. But they can't do it on their own. They need to to trust me - that I have what they need to move on, and I will not reject them everytime they mess up. That is the path to ever greater victories. I think a lot of people prefer to remain at a grade one level of spirituality. It feels secure and safe where they experience few failures, and life moves along smoothly and in control. God knows that there is a far deeper level of brokenness and crucifixion that we have not yet experienced. So he brings ever deeper trials and tests into our lives in which we discover that we are not nearly as sanctified as we thought we were. In our failures Romans Seven comes alive to us. We experience the nature within us that wars against what we know to be right. But if we stop at Romans Seven, we will only end up sinking into despair or a legalistic trap in order to conquer our flesh. (a form of extremism) We must read on to Romans Eight – that glorious chapter: There is now no more condemnation for those who are in Christ….” We are reminded there that the Spirit has set us free from condemnation. We don’t have to sink into a pit of despair and legalistic traps. We can rest in the Lord trust him to move us on. And we can trust in his provisions to make it possible: his Spirit, his love, his peace, his hope, his word, etc etc. And that is what those verses that you quoted remind us of: the hope that Christ can enable us to move on into ever more Christlikeness. “We have been given fullness in Christ… ‘Col 1:9 It is Christ who completes us, not our perfectionism. The path to spiritual growth is downward. We decrease, he increases. And he'll get us there, but we do need to trust him. Diane

I was reffering to your impression of George. :-)

Something I think that would help us all get along better is if we would understand, "God works with different people in different ways"That simple phrase has changed the way I react to a lot of stuff.Adam :-)

diane,you didn't finsh rom.8:1 this is what you wrote:"'There is now no more condemnation for those who are in Christ….”this is what the verse says in the bible:Romans 8 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.i spoke to you about galations 5:16 on my last post. walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. so we see that if we really walk in the Spirit, the bible says WE WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH! galations list the work of flesh in gal. 5:19-20. so if you have anger or jelousy in your heart you are not walking the Spirit, but the flesh. this is not my opinion, but this is what the WORD says. so romans says there is NO condemnation for those who walk in the Spirit, but if they walk in flesh there is. romans 8 says we are condemned in the flesh. i agree with you on this part, that we MUST decrease in order that He may increase. we cannot even walk with a pure heart and clean mind if there is a big ME in the way.annie, thats why i told diane not to look to man, but look to God's word, His promises. with man we can find so many faults because we can be so critical and find every little imperfection. and a lot of imperfection that christians find on other christians have NOTHING to do with the cross, but nit pickers full of jelousy and envy. alot of people judge outwardly and do not make righteos judgement. Jesus of corse was very discerning and saw the motives thats why when the pharisees ask Jesus something He did not always answer their questions, but say something different that had to do with their wicked motives behind their "what it seems good questions." even Jesus was nick picked on. people were saying, look he sat with sinners, look He's joseph's son, look He drinks wine. all this stuff seemed sinful to those religouse people that they totally missed the Truth. they didn't even see Jesus walking in purity because they judged outwardly!God bless,lisa

This is a very revealing thread, which I think exposes the roots of tangents – attempts to overbalance what we perceive to be out of balance in another person. Our observant “mediator”, MeAgain, made a good point, which I feel applies here: We can sometimes be saying the same thing yet just with different phraseology. First of all, I wish to admit that my initial wording invited the very pendulum swing that we would prefer to avoid. I could have done better. Let me recap our conversation and see if we can steer it on course: Lisa responded to the Verwer article: if you guys agree with george verwer's balanced teaching then no need to listen to wesley, ravenhill and finney's preaching because they preach on Christ perfection (sinless life) wich i believe too. i believe in romans 6, 7, 8. Lisa then defended the doctrine of sinless perfection by quoting Rita: Does this mean that we are allowed to just go and sin 'outwardly’ then? No - not at all. Then we would be "KNOWINGLY" sinning.The whole point of this is that we do not DELIBERATELY or KNOWINGLY sin. Therefore we remain pure of heart. I responded:This is a good example of extremism. You responded: you disagree and call me a extremist Disagreeing with a point is no reason to assume one is also labelling the other an extemistist. In fact, to use any label to broadsweep one’s character is out of place, and not my intent with you. I don’t even wish to view Rita as being extremist. I just wished to point out that one of her conclusions was incorrect and potentially pathological. It basically excuses all unconscious sin. I quoted from Ironside to point out that even Finney and his followers strayed into extremism – and that caused severe damage in the Body. I should have responded initially: “This thought could lead to extremism”. That might have prevented you feeling like I was attacking you or your own doctrine. In fact, as I read your words, I see that you share an abundance of precious truth in the very issue being discussed. I believe that if you knew my background, you would understand why I jump on these kinds of perfection teachings so quickly. You see, for years I had a tendency to swing too far towards perfectionism. It is a devil’s trap. I was never at peace, and always plagued with shame and a sense of failure. I felt that surely God could not love me because I could never reach his mark. I felt that I was never good enough. God knew that this bondage would always keep me from being all I could be for him. He could see the path of self-destruction that I was on. No one else could. In school I had very high marks, many perfect tests. I was praised by my evangelical religious peers, and everyone else for being the model Christian. On the surface I was sinless according to all the standards I understood. (the very thing that Rita idealizes.) On the inside I was far from the mark – mainly because I failed to trust that God was sufficient. I’ll stop there, as I think you will understand the overall sentiment. Good doctrine is healthy doctrine, not only spiritually, but for life in general. It produces well-balanced people. If we see bad stuff coming out of it, we better check it out- where it went off the rails. Diane

someone mention that Jesus and the apostles look well balanced. are you seriouse? I don't know how they looked, but they are "balanced". Christ is the perfect example of God livied out in humanity. In HIm the attributes of God are seen manifest in his human virtues. That is the attributes of Love, of patience, of endurance, of kindness, of forebearance, of Shepharding, of holiness, etc. Christ manifested the attributes of God in His humanity.The world will never regard believers as "balanced" simply because the world is made up of unbelievers and so to live "by faith in the Son of God" is most definitaly "unbalanced" to an unbeliever.The balance is not between faith and unbelief, holiness and sin, rightousness and unrightousness, truth and error. The proper balance is the balance of truth and practice and not taking one aspect of truth to the exclusion of others. Just as Satan's temptation of our Lord was to cause Him to embrace and act on one true thing to the neglect of others, ("it is written, He shall give His angels charge... cast yourself off..."), the Lord replied, 'again it is written". As Tozer says, "a truth made to stand alone often does not stand straight."In scripture, one aspect of truth is balanced by another. for example, some will take election and the soverignity of God to an extreem suggesting it is a waste of time to preach the gospel because, "the elect will be saved anyway". Others take the aspect of our freedom from the Law to suggest that one may live after his flesh with no consequences.Others will take gifts and magnify them to be the center of God's economy to the neglect of Christ as our indwelling Life and our need to "grow up in all things into Christ as the Head, and the need by the Spirit to be "conformed to the image of Christ".Some will take signs and wonders found in the Bible and suggest that that is main thing. To live a sensational life full of miricals and teach that we must not live "normally", working, and such things but rather sit on a rock and wait for ravens to deliver food to us.The Lord Jesus was the perfect man as God intended man to be. He was God manifest in the flesh demonstrating Man as a vessel to contain God's life and manifest God in their humanity. And this LIfe was not just in sensational works of power but in day to day activities, in going and comming, in eating and drinking, in fellowship, in prayer, in all the aspects of living.And Christ as the single grain of wheat was sown into the ground to die and His Life was released and in resurrection He now imparts His Life into all His believers as the "many grains".And the Apostles were those constituted with this same Christ as their indwelling Life and lived Him out in all His balance and reality. And the Apostles ministered this same Christ to all the believers that they too might enjoy Christ as their all, as their indwelling Life, and to manifest Christ as the constituent of all the members of His body to be the corporate manifestation of Christ and His testimony on the earth. That is the many grains of wheat sharing in the Life of the One Grain of wheat as His reproduction.Graftedbranch

"Balance, Not Tangents" i think is a good sermon, a real "spirituality-check" if you will ... i really appreciated that the brother our Lord used to expound on this refered to himself as "a natural extremist like me", and told of how our Lord freed him from some things ...i can totally identify with this brother's statement, for when i was in the world i sure was an extremist for satan ... Thank God not to the extent of say an axe murderer, but i sure was one notorius "party orginizer" ... Me and my (then) crew used to throw bashes that folks came from 4 states to attend because they knew they were gonna have one good ole time in the flesh ... i've heard it said that when a person comes to Christ He will utilize whatever gifts, attribute of character, etc., in the change He'll use to His own advantage ... If that's the case then it would make sense to me that He'd burden me with wanting to be a part of throwing the best possible good ole party in the Spirit we saints could ever attend ... A true Holy Ghost REVIVAL ... My experience thus far has been it's much easier, and folk far more receptive, to gathering for a devil oriented party than a Holy Ghost one ... But forgive me please, there i go being extremist again ... :-? Anyhow sister D posted this from the sermon and i've used it as a check list to see if i've been accused of any of these; Some Tangents which can pull us towards extremism:Ego trips (yes - i'm asked often why i just can't go along with the program)Emotionalism (yes - i've been told that i'm obsessed with God, tho i think it's the other way round)Signs/wonders/miracles (no - the kind of miracles many churches seek i don't see enough purity in the Body for such divine manifestations to display)Local church (no - my loyalty is to Christ first and to the dismay of many i detest denominationalism)Legalism (yes - i'm told i'm pre-occupied with following rules - but really it's only His rules i'm overly concerned about, if that's possible)Liberty cult (no - i think so called liberty is a huge part of our spiritual illness)Prosperity (no - this false gospel irks me to no end and really proves PT Barnum's observation, "A sucker and his money is soon parted")Perfectionism (yes - ok i admit that i think it's better to be to disciplined than not enough ... Pray for me for our Lord is still working on me with this)i admit that i'm an extremist, just seems tho that these days i'm almost opposite of everything that most other saints i know are extremist for ... This sermon would never make it with a lot of saints i know ...Blessings in Christ!

Rah,Have not read all the posts here, but I agree with the spirit of you last one. Wesley was surely labeled a legalist, and I would use his sermon title "Holiness is not Legalism" as a good reference.He said to enjoy the strictist teaching best. I think many Christians do not judge themselves enough. The plain teaching is:1 Cor 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."I think few go too far, but many don't go far enough. It seems like we should take our individual sins more seriously considering that Paul thought he should "die daily."People viewed Christ, Paul (mover of seditions, sect ringleader), and the prophets as extreme, too. How do I know? Well, they killed them. If people think you go a little too far, your probably doing alright.

… sister D posted this from the sermon and i've used it as a check list to see if i've been accused of any of these; Rahman, I see you’ve used my summery list to form an evaluation of yourself….. …oops……. of how others view you. That, from my understanding of Verwer’s sermon is not where he was driving his points. It was not about how others view us, or even how we view ourselves in comparison to others. I suppose we can make “extremist” mean a positive virtue – like Jesus was an extremist. But I think we need to dress this word in its original context in Verwer’s message, rather then just extract it and then use it bare-naked. I feel we need to respect the spirit of Verwer’s message, and the burden that Combat Chuck is carrying. Some of the comments on the thread, to me, seem to suggest a tangent veering off from that. And in the process the punch of the message has been lost. And so has the burden. Ego trips (yes - i'm asked often why i just can't go along with the program) Others could be misjudging, or they could be right. The challenge is knowing the difference. Help, Lord!Emotionalism (yes - i've been told that i'm obsessed with God, While it might not be possible to be too “obsessed” with God, it is possible to be obsessed with certain attributes of God at the exclusion of others. That then becomes extreme. Signs/wonders/miracles (no - the kind of miracles many churches seek i don't see enough purity in the Body for such divine manifestations to display) . The other extreme is lack of faith - scepticism: God doesn’t do those kind of miracles today. Local church (no - my loyalty is to Christ first and to the dismay of many i detest denominationalism) But that could be an extreme view that justifies one’s refusal to submit to others. God works through local churches. Legalism (yes - i'm told i'm pre-occupied with following rules - but really it's only His rules i'm overly concerned about, if that's possible) I’ve heard this a lot, by some of the most pharisaic of Pharisees. “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin – including following the rules” I’m sure you have the balance, though your words may not say it all. Liberty cult (no - i think so called liberty is a huge part of our spiritual illness) This is just another end of the pendulum – as extreme as legalism. It has nothing to do with the freedom that Christ came to give. Perfectionism (yes - ok i admit that i think it's better to be to disciplined than not enough ... Pray for me for our Lord is still working on me with this) Still, you can be over the rails on that one too – fleshly. I’m sure that you wish not merely to be are more polished and self-reliant in the flesh, but that Christ’s perfect character be formed in you. I admit that i'm an extremist, just seems tho that these days i'm almost opposite of everything that most other saints i know are extremist for .... I know the feeling of being counter-culture – as far as the religious culture goes. The challenge is to avoid the extreme of being a lone ranger and failing to see how God uses all those imperfect people around us to form Christ within me. This sermon would never make it with a lot of saints i know .. And yet it is a welcome relief from the bondage of extremism. It leads to a better balanced life. People viewed Christ, Paul (mover of seditions, sect ringleader), and the prophets as extreme, too. How do I know? Well, they killed them. This is true but not what Verwer speaks about. These people were actually very well balanced, no doubt the result of God’s purifying fires - and that’s why they could endure such intense opposition– and not crack up or walk away from God. They keep their eyes on the focus – the Lord. And they kept the message pure. If people think you go a little too far, your probably doing alright. Not necessarily. They could be right: We could be off the wall, and not see it. I believe neither Combat, nor Verwer are calling us to justify our “extremism” but to recognize our tendencies to stray off the straight and narrow by excluding certain truths, embracing only our favored doctrines, and then justifying our positions while turning our noses up at the one’s on the other end of the pendulum. Eventfully our unbalanced doctrines go over the edge and are no longer Biblical. The proper balance is the balance of truth and practice and not taking one aspect of truth to the exclusion of others. This I believe is what is needed. It is all too easy to embrace a partial truth and not see that we have neglected the balancing truth. Wesley was surely labeled a legalist, and I would use his sermon title "Holiness is not Legalism" as a good reference. I don’t know the sermon, but I’d like to suggest that many did end up turning the true pursuit of holiness into extreme conservatism. Gerry Bridges brings the balance back in his book, “The Pursuit of Holiness.” Yikes… what a lot of rambling.. Diane

I believe neither Combat, nor Verwer are calling us to justify our “extremism” but to recognize our tendencies to stray off the straight and narrow by excluding certain truths, embracing only our favored doctrines, and then justifying our positions while turning our noses up at the one’s on the other end of the pendulum. Eventfully our unbalanced doctrines go over the edge and are no longer Biblical. DianeThis is it. Well said.

letsgetbusy wrote:I think few go too far, but many don't go far enough.Agreed!It seems like we should take our individual sins more seriously considering that Paul thought he should "die daily."Agreed.People viewed Christ, Paul (mover of seditions, sect ringleader), and the prophets as extreme, too. How do I know? Well, they killed them.Our problem is that people in this thread are using different meanings for the term "extremism". Some of us think extremism is the normal Christian life. Some of us think extremism is somebody who has gone off down the wrong trail. While it appears that these two defintions of extremism disagree with eachother, the people using them may not actually be disagreeing.I believe the perfect life that Jesus lived is THE example and all of us are called to walk exactly as He did. "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" "be holy for I am holy" "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked", etc, etc...Living exactly as Jesus did is the normal Christian life. Some people call this extreme. I like to call it normal. The standard.Meanwhile, some think that extremism means that you have gone off in some way that is unbiblical. George mentioned several of them. He called them "tangents"-- dead end streets.Do you see how we are confusing this dicussion with two different meanings of the word "extremism"?Anyways, I'm not against holiness-- nor am I against the doctrine of Christian perfection. Nor am I against living exactly like Jesus did. Neither is George Verwer. This is what we should be doing. Call this extreme if you want, (and some people will call it extreme, only because they are used to a lower standard that they think is normal-- but is really sub-normal) -- This is the normal Christian life, walking as Jesus walked.I am not against this. George is not against this... George is against this second defintion of extremism, the tangents. This is where we need balance.If people think you go a little too far, your probably doing alright.You could very well be right-- But just be careful. People do not have to think you are going too far to be a sign that you are living the Christian life. From time to time of course it's bound to happen. But it is not something that one should aim for or use to measure their holiness, rightness, Jesusness-- You know what I mean?

Here's the article that was reffered to by somebody earlier, "Holiness Is Not Legalism" by John WesleyI thought it was good! :-)

It’s about the pendulum vs the plumb line. The plumb line is God’s perfect standard in all things. A plumb line doesn’t swing, but a pendulum does. In the Old Testament, the plumb line referred to God's immovable, unchangeable standard for Israel. Living by this standard would protect them from harming themselves, and also keep them close to God. God declared, “I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line.” sa 28:17 In other words, God measured the success of his people according to his fixed standards. Sadly, Israel got completely out of plumb. So God said, I am setting a plumb line among my people Israel; I will spare them no longer.” Amos 7:7 Because they refused to center their lives on God's plumb line, they reaped the consequence and experienced tough times. When people don’t rest in Christ, God’s plumb line, they may dedicate all their energy to seeking what they believe is the most right, most wise way in order to stay on top. Their minds become preoccupied with thoughts about their need to be right, and a craving to make others see and follow the "right" way. They want to push the pendulum to one side as far as they can - no matter what the cost to themselves or anyone else. Perhaps that is why King Solomon said, "Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise - why destroy yourself?Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool -why die before your time? It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other.The man who fears God will avoid all extremes." Ecc. 7: 16 - 18The far side of the pendulum is an unstable place to be. Life will always feel insecure, filled with fear and mistrust. This is a foolish way to live. We end up making enemies of our friends, our neighbor, our brothers, our fellow worshippers. Relationships turn cold and distant. They even turn into court battles. This is too high a price to pay for our craving to remain on top. No wonder the apostle Paul said, “Why not rather be wronged?" 1 Cor. 6:7 Diane

Sis D wrote;"I suppose we can make “extremist” mean a positive virtue – like Jesus was an extremist. But I think we need to dress this word in its original context in Verwer’s message, rather then just extract it and then use it bare-naked. I feel we need to respect the spirit of Verwer’s message, and the burden that Combat Chuck is carrying. Some of the comments on the thread, to me, seem to suggest a tangent veering off from that. And in the process the punch of the message has been lost. And so has the burden." Yikes, i guess i did approach this from a more personal view than i should have ... i didn't mean to veer off and diminish Combat Chuck's burden or the punch of the message ... :-o Thanks sis D for setting me straight ... :-D Blessings in Christ,Bro R

Rahman wrote: Yikes, i guess i did approach this from a more personal view than i should have ... i didn't mean to veer off and diminish Combat Chuck's burden or the punch of the message ...I doubt that this tendency to veer into our own creative thinking is unsual for any of us. It's just that it's hard to see we are doing it. I see this as just part of human nature - and perhaps quite harmless for the most part. It could lead to some wonderful new ideas. This makes me realize how easy it is to stray off the plumb line, and not know it, because it feel so right. I have often prayed, and will continue to pray the words from the hymn, "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" O to grace how great a debtor Daily I'm constrained to be!Let thy goodness, like a fetter, Bind my wandering heart to Thee. Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,Prone to leave the God I love; Here's my heart, O take and seal it; Seal it for Thy courts above. Diane

brethrenit seems the balance required in the Faith is in recognizing the seasons. there is a time to war and a time to rest, a time to sow and reap and so on. i pray that in in the seeking of this balance that the quest doesn't degenrate to lukewarmness coz that is the worst thing to be. we should be full tilt for God at all times. i suppose for those who aren't full tilt that may appear to be extremism (this is being used in a different way than the original context of the word in this discussion) but the Lord took the matter of our salvation seriously enough to require a perfect sacrifice in Christ so we should take the Faith in all seriousness even unto death. balance is essential in working for God and this balance comes from following the leadings of the Lord's Holy Spirit, who knows and does only the will of God. there are times to work and times to rest and recouperate for the next work.i pray that in seeking balance we don't confuse that with and/or become lukewarm.

Graftedbranc wrote:

Good point... Maybe the question becomes, "Whose" 'balance'?Amen, one man's "balance" is another man's "extreem". Graftedbranch

Hi all ...Our Lord has been ministering to me via this thread, especially out of sis D's post "the pendulum or the plumb line" ... It seems that Eccl. 7:16-18 is as untouched sermonwise as Rom. 9 & Luke 16: 1-13, but here are three that have been of benefit to me ... Especially the first one, in that He surely does have me at this time in "a painful learning process" ...A painful learning process - Ecclesiastes 7:15-29http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=42005163511The Way of Escape - Ecclesiastes 7:15-18http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=660418253(Through The Bible) Ecclesiastes 7-12 by Chuck Smith - Ecclesiastes7-12https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6339 Blessings in Christ Jesus! :-D