Pre-Tribulation Rapture

So I was curious to see what scriptures people quote who support pre-tribulation rapture. I can't find anything in the bible that supports this theory, but tons of scripture that supports the rapture happening after the tribulation. Let me know what you think

UH OH...here we go ;-) I see it already 15,000 posts. :-P

I tend to be pre-trib. Why? Well, I don't have the time to go into that right now. However, as a Christian, I would like to think I'm somewhat (at least) in tune with the Spirit.My heart...tells me pre-trib.My Intellect: "whatever-trib"I guess I'm trying to say that whatever happens, I want to be prepared, and know HIM. That's what is important.Mark

Kristy,Is the pretribulation rapture going to be secret (i.e., the world will not see Jesus coming) or will the pretribulation rapture be visible to the world?You are right though, as Christians we are not going to suffer the wrath of God. However, is it possible that God can punish the wicked and shield the righteous at the same time? Didn't he do something similar in Exodus 12? 12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

I guess I'm trying to say that whatever happens, I want to be prepared, and know HIM. That's what is important.My advice to you, if you are unsure, is to prepare for a post-tribulation rapture and pray for a pre-tribulation rapture.

The tribulation period is what? God's wrath poured out on a sinful world, correct? Before I show you supportive verses for Pre-Trib, can you show me any instances in the Bible that speak about God pouring out His wrath on those who follow Him? (Notice I said "those who follow Him, not "His people"... there is a difference, especially in the OT) 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...Those who disbelieve already have the wrath of God on them.He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Why do I quote that? Well does it not mak a case that believers are already on earth side by side with those upon whom God's wrath abides. So if the tribulation is an outpuring of greater wrath on unbelivers there is no logical reason to believe we can't be here at that time. paslm 91 would certainly allow for believers to have all sorts of calamity round about them but not coming upon them.Perhaps there are other reasons to believe that Christians will be removed from the earth before the tribulation. But I don't find that argument convincing in and of itself.

Sorry about that Krispy. Quick question about what you wrote:If you read the scriptures, there is no way you can be on earth and not be effected by what happens in the tribulation... especially when it comes to buying and selling. Is this God's Wrath or Man's wrath?

No they dont. Sorry, Taco, but thats bad theology. Yea I guess you are right. john 3:36 is a bit spurious.Sorry about that.

Krispy, you saidIf you read the scriptures, there is no way you can be on earth and not be effected by what happens in the tribulation... especially when it comes to buying and selling. Those who refuse the mark will be killed, those who take it will have no way of turning back. Thats plain and simple. The buying and selling you mentioned is the antichrist and his forces wrath against those who do not accept the mark of the beast. The death from not accepting the mark is punishment the antichrist and his forces inflict...not God.The tribulation is God's wrath. How could it be man's wrath? Man's wrath against what? Who are we that we should take out our wrath on the world? We're nothing...This is my point. The tribulation is God's wrath against sinful man, those who are unbelievers. You believe that since Christians are saved and shall not feel the wrath of God this means we will not be around during the tribulation. However, the 'tribulation' you say will happen to Christians during this period is acutally coming from the antichrist and his followers...not God.God's wrath is not upon Christians during the tribulation, we are protected from that...however we still have to deal with the fores of evil in this world. Quick question: Would God ever allow wicked man to hurt a Christian?

The buying and selling you mentioned is the antichrist and his forces wrath against those who do not accept the mark of the beast.The fact that there are "those who do not accept the mark" seems to suggest that there are those who are following God at this time. Again this whould seem to knock Krispy's premise that God won't pour out his wrath on the earth at the same time as those who follow him are there. it matters little if you call them "tribulation saints". If this is the wrath of God - and these people are followers of the will of God how can Krispy's argument stand?

I would really like to see a good peaceful discussion on this subject. This is something that I have been questioning and would like to hear both sides of the debate.One thing I have always thought about God's wrath though is that His wrath is not the tribulation but rather God's wrath is the final judgment of unbelievers. His wrath is eternal damnation is what I have always thought.Is that not true?Mike

One thing I have always thought about God's wrath though is that His wrath is not the tribulation but rather God's wrath is the final judgment of unbelievers. His wrath is eternal damnation is what I have always thought.I tend to agree with that. I do see God's wrath aginst unbelievers during the tribulation and afterwards on the day of judgement. I also agree that this needs to be a peaceful discussion. We can all disagree on this topic and all go to heaven. When we get there we will ask Jesus who was right and who was wrong.I believe in a post-tribulation rapture. I have believed this for about 3 months now. I spent 20+ years on the pre-trib side and a part of me wishes they were right...because I don't want to go through the tribulation period at all...however I do want to be faithful to the word of God.In my study, I see no evidence of 'two' events in which Christ returns to the earth. There is a Second Coming of Christ...not a Third.

WOW!! Page 2 in about an hour... :-o I think everyone is just waiting for the next post ;-)

but if God's wrath abides on the unbeliever, then the unbeliever can shake it off... by believing.Absolutley I have done that myself :-) You are missing my main point however.(Abideth is present tense by the way)

Again this whould seem to knock Krispy's premise that God won't pour out his wrath on the earth at the same time as those who follow him are there. it matters little if you call them "tribulation saintsIf God cannot pour out his wrath on the earth at the same time as those who follow him are there...then that means one of two things:1) God will never pour out his wrath on the world2) There will be no such thing as a 'tribulation saint'I think we can all agree that both options are impossible and unbiblicalSo, what makes us Christians in this present age of grace immune to tribulation and why aren't the 'tribulation saints' as fortunate?

My eyes were opened to the posttribulation rapture by 2 Thess. 2.Read this chapter and see that Paul shows the coming of Jesus and our gathering togther to him take place at the same time. This he refers to as the 'day of the Lord' (or Christ). Paul then says that this day will not come until the apostasy and the antichrist (during the tribulation).Also, Jesus spoke of 1 return: Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. You might say that he is just referring to the Jews...if so why is he telling HIS disciples who would start HIS church?If Jesus spoke of only 1 return and Paul speaks of only 1 return...why do we believe in 2?

So far no one has brough forth any scripture about any of this other than me... just a lot of conjecture and opinions about stuff. Unless we're gonna discuss what the scripture says, then I think I'll leave y'all to your opinions.You mentioned one verse that seems to you (your conjecture) to mean that God won't pour out his wrath on this earth when his followers are there. Others have pointed out counter examples and now you bail out?Stick with it please explain why you beieve believers wont be here for the tribulation. You sound solidly convinced. Out with it :-D

Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------However, the 'tribulation' you say will happen to Christians during this period is acutally coming from the antichrist and his followers...not God.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is referring to people who are saved during the Tribulation.Are people saved during the tribulation considered Christians?Also, I am glad we agree that Christians can be persecuted by non-Christians...so is it impossible to believe that Christians can be persecuted during the tribulation?

Krispy,Let us both pray about this topic. I know where you are at...I was there not long ago.I want more than anything to believe that Jesus will come and take me out of this world before the tribulation. The problem is, I can't find that in scripture.1 Thess. 4 talks about Jesus coming to get the dead saints and the alive saints. We will meet him in the air and be with him forever.2 Thess. 2 deals with the error that the day of the lord has already come. Paul refers to this day as, "the coming of our Lord and our gathering togther to him". He says not to worry about missing this day because this day will not happen until the antichrist is revealed and the apostasy (falling away) occurs.Interesting that in 1 Thess 4 Paul refers to 'according to the Lord's own words'. When did Jesus refer to his coming? Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. When did he say it would happen? Immediately after the tribulation.But don't take my word for it. Study the scriptures and ask God to reveal the answer. Don't come in trying to prove your position, but read and ask God to reveal the truth of the matter.God Bless.

It is interesting that noone has produced scripture only to support the pre-trib theory. I know that for myself, I was pre for many years until I too read 2 Thessalonians 2. Please don't get me wrong, I do not really care whether some one is pre or post, but I think that this could really be part of the falling away that is mentioned as people are not snatched up, they begin to question scripture, their salvation, their pastors etc.. It seems that this would be a wonderful ploy of Satan to trick folks.As for examples in scripture og God protecting His people while dealing with the world around them, look at Noah, and his family. Not saved from the wrath but through it. Look at when God wiped out the cattle etc of the Egyptians in Exodus, yet nothing happened to Israel.Either way, there are far more improtant things to put our hands to. :-)

hi, i base my belief on daniel. the hebrew children were told to bow down and worship the image and said our God is able to deliver(rapture)us from thee o king but if not we will not bow down. this inraged the king so he heated the furnace up 7 times hotter so that his people suffered(wrath). how many did we put in the furnace?3 but there are 4 and the fourth is like THE SON OF GOD. DELIVERENCE..through the tribulation not from it... although i walk through th valley of the shadow of death... the position of this story in the scriptures is also vwry interesting to me... then daniel was thrown into the lions den...delivered through tribulation and wrath repeated. Jesus prayed to be delivered fom the bitter cup but had to indure the wrath ,caused by my sin, for the joy set before Him.i don't know how or what cause i cannot do anything to change or influence what God is going to do;so i am going to live for Jesus today.jimp

Up until a couple months ago I held a neuteral position on this, but I am now firmly pre-trib.I just about spit my drink out when I read this Krispy........YOU were neutral until a few months ago.......I thought you were firmly pre-trib (just didn't debate that particular topic) many years ago while on RR? :-P Blessings in Him, Cindy

I wanted to see what people said and thats why I posted this thread. I'm sorry but pre-tribulation rapture is not going to happen. Matthew 24:16 "let those of Judea flea to the mountains." He is saying this to anyone who reads the bible. If christians where gone at this time, why would he say something like that in Matthew, Mark and Luke? God never, ever contradicts himself and neither does Jesus. I'm sorry but Jesus explains pretty clearly in the gospels Mark 13, Luke 21, that we will all be here for the tribulation and won't be taken until after it is over. The thing about pre-tribulation ,other than being wrong and unsubstantiated, is that I think it is an idea probably created by Satan just like roaringlamb said. If people believed so strongly in pre-tribulation rapture and it doesn't happen, which it won't, millions of people are going to question god and their faith and thats very frustrating. We need to take a stand against this theory because it is not biblical by any means, and will cause many people to fall away from god when the tribulation begins.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."This verse sways me away from pre-trib. A lot of people I respect sway toward or stand pre-trib. I agree that the words I read in Scripture lean me away from this popular theology. I would like to hear both sides, though.Is there a belief that some people will be resurrected to go through the tribulation (besides the two witnesses)? I thought I heard about this from somewhere.Please continue to discuss this, I am trying to take a more firm stance on this subject.

post-trib...pre-trib...all-trib...omni-trib?I am a pan-man...it will all pan out in the end :-P

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation." Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10). In Christ: Phillip

brethrenChrist is returning for a bride without spot or wrinkle so we will go through the refiner's fire coz as raggedy as we are, we better not be kidding ourselves thinking we're waltzing into heaven in this state...no way. now whether that means we'll be raptured pre-trib, mid-trib or pos-trib is of no consequence really because if we find ourselves here, then the Lord will surely give us grace to endure. that being said, the idea that we will escape any sort of persecution be it suffering during the tribulation or otherwise is a lie from hell itself to get us to rest on our laurels. there will be some saints however who will be around during the tribulation, some of them will be saved after the rapture and i think there will be a few who have to stay behind to help tend to them. from them will come the overcomers mentioned in revelation chapt 14. so either way there will be some believers around throught the tribulation. they will not suffer the wrath of God but they will surely suffer the wrath of the enemy.bro roaringlamb said thisIt is interesting that noone has produced scripture only to support the pre-trib theory. I know that for myself, I was pre for many years until I too read 2 Thessalonians 2.Please don't get me wrong, I do not really care whether some one is pre or post, but I think that this could really be part of the falling away that is mentioned as people are not snatched up, they begin to question scripture, their salvation, their pastors etc.. It seems that this would be a wonderful ploy of Satan to trick folks.As for examples in scripture og God protecting His people while dealing with the world around them, look at Noah, and his family. Not saved from the wrath but through it. Look at when God wiped out the cattle etc of the Egyptians in Exodus, yet nothing happened to Israel.Either way, there are far more improtant things to put our hands to.bro the Lord had been showing me the same thing!!!praise God i'm not crazy after all!!!when this tribulation gets going there will indeed be many Christians left behind who will jump ship because it's too hard on them and this whole idea of being raptured unscathed has been so taught and believed many will reject the faith as a result and this i also think is a part of the great falling away. bro Phillip you wrote:I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).yes the believers will not suffer God's wrath but we will suffer the enemy's wrath. because we are covered by Christ's blood we will not suffer the Father's wrath upon the wicked but the enemy will indeed try us. the Lord's preservation of this Church (note He only said this to the church at Philadelphia, not to the other 6 so to apply this to the whole Church is erroneous)is not being whisked away from it all but being gien grace to endure it all for His glory. in truth i'm not afraid of persecution or death for the Faith. at one time i was though coz i thought i'd have to do it of my own strength. When i realized that the Lord's Holy Spirit will be whatever is required to endure the persecution and martyrdom which the Lord has shown me, it's been all gravy. i don't know about the rest of y'all but i'll be here, maybe a good number of you will be here too, either way the Lord will be whatever we require to see His work through. ain't God good y'all?yeah, we serve a mighty God!!!

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.Quote: "the wicked but the enemy will indeed try us."How if the wicked one one toucheth us not, how can he try us unless God try us in submission to Himself in Christ. 1 John 5:19-20 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 1 John 5:19-20 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.If Christ be in us, then Christ will have to go through the Tribulation with us. I think we would all have to fall away and be separated from Christ for this to happen, but since this is impossible or we were not saved in the first place; or we would put Christ on the Cross again and crucify Him, which is impossible also. But this is true. 1 John 5:19-20 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."Jesus is come," And He Lives in brethren, as we are son's of God, Legal and Birthed by Incorruptable Seed. It is no longer we who live but the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself for each one that are His, given by the Father.Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. If we go through the tribulation with Christ in us then we are ministers of sin and must be tried by Satan as you say, what is the tribulation for and who are there? Who can overcome Satan without Christ in Him? He overcame the world we did not or cannot. Pre trip takes care of all this and puts us in our proper place that is being prepared for us by Him that is in us. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. He is not in the tribulation and only those that are alive and left after the rapture will be in the tribulation. Jesus does not come to the earth in the tribulation until the end and we are with Him.In Christ: Phillip

bro PhillipIf Christ be in us, then Christ will have to go through the Tribulation with us. I think we would all have to fall away and be separated from Christ for this to happen, but since this is impossible or we were not saved in the first place; or we would put Christ on the Cross again and crucify Him, which is impossible also.and therein is the problem. part of the falling away is in that this rapture will not happen as is commonly taught so people will be disillousioned and reject the faith. What should we say then about the saints who went before us? did Christ not suffer with them during their trials? did Christ not bear this burden with them till the very end? yes He did else they wouldn't have been able to endure all this and praise His name and preach the Gospel. If we go through the tribulation with Christ in us then we are ministers of sin and must be tried by Satan as you say, what is the tribulation for and who are there? Who can overcome Satan without Christ in Him? He overcame the world we did not or cannot. Pre trip takes care of all this and puts us in our proper place that is being prepared for us by Him that is in us. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. He is not in the tribulation and only those that are alive and left after the rapture will be in the tribulation. Jesus does not come to the earth in the tribulation until the end and we are with Him.but bro this passage in revelation chapt 13 says to me there will the saints here during the tribulation. i mean this is smack dab in the thick of the tribulation when the enemy makes war with the saints. of course this war has been going on ever since Christ came. the tribulation is for the Lord's judgement on the wicked and also a period of purification for the Lord's saints during which the saints who are there will indeed suffer at the enemy's hands (as did the saints of old) for the Lord's glory. now who indeed can overcome the enemy but he who has Christ, we have Christ in us so what's the problem?it seems to me that there is a reluctance by the saints, or should i say those who call themselves saints to sacrifice for the Lord in any way much less suffer persecution. i think this makes for fertile ground for the idea that we will be whisked away before it comes. my contention is that how can we be whisked away in this sorry raggedy state? Christ is coming for a bride without spot or wrinkle so it stands to reason that we will have to be tried and cleaned up first. so if He comes to get us before, during or after the tribulation we need to get cleaned up and cleaning up is not going to be a cakewalk...we will go through a tribulation of our own first. no way Christ is coming for a raggedy bride such as this, no way. if Christ suffered so much for our sake, you best believe that we too will suffer for His and if it is to suffer at the enemy's hands throughout the whole tribulation then so be it. the point is that if we find ourselves here during that time, the Lord has given us grace enough to endure.i don't see what there is to fear about going through the tribulation anyway unless you think God's grace is not sufficient for you. The Lord has me in a place now where i look forward to it all, not coz i like pain (well i'm a rugby player so i have been accused of being a glutton for pain), i don't but rather because the Lord has shown me that He will see Himself glorfied in me and through through this and other ways so it is out of a desire to see the Lord glorified and exaulted that i look forward to all this and the crown of martyrdom. i was reading watchman nee's study on the revelation and in it he speaks of there being i think 4 raptures, 2 involving 144000, the first being 144000 Jews, and the second 144000 virgins then 2 more i believe. this study was really eye-openning. it confirms fo r me that there will be saints here in that time who will receive the martrys' crown and it is these ones among others who will rule with Christ during the millenial reign. the study is here http://ministrybooks.com/books.cfm?id=%23%25ZMU%0Ahere is that portion of revelation 13, some saint will be here so if one of them is you, seek the Lord's grace.1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name F17 of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded F18 to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue F19 forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

bro Krispyyou wroteAnyway, there are those who believe it is the Holy Spirit and some believe it is the church... either way, you cant have a church without the Holy Spirit. So one is removed, or they both are, but the church is definately gone.but bro how is it that the whole church is gone when the revelation says these things?rev 16 vs 2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.this says to me that some saints will be there because the vial is not poured out on all men but only those who have the mark of the beast.rev 20 v 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.evidently these people were around during the tribulation and overcame the beast. it seems to me the issue of the rapture (the whisking away from trial bit which is so poplular) is that it's not going to be a total rapture but a partial one and that the rapture of some will be martyrdom. now those that overcome the beast will reign with Christ for a thousand years. that is AWESOME to me!also it seems that he who is holding back the antichrist is neither the Holy Spirit nor the Church because the Church to some degree is present during the tribulation and like you said, the Church can't be without the Holy Spirit of God. perhaps the thing that is holding antichrist back is an angel? i've been looking for that scripture and have been unable to find it. someone know where it is?

Ok Krisp, I had thought you were firmly pre-trib years ago. As for the passage concerning what "restrains", that would be II Thess. 2. The thing is that that "day" will not come----what day? .........our gathering and the coming of our Lord (1 event) until the falling away (defection from the truth-apostasy) AND the man of sin being revealed. The church WILL be here until those two events happen.As for "who restrains", the church or Holy Spirit, it does not matter. The scripture does not say that the restrainer will be removed from the earth. "Something" is restraining the evil.....and when that restaint is moved out of the way (not taken away), then evil will be given the chance to take over. Moving out of the midst can mean to "move out from the middle to the side", kinda like watching from the sidelines, but not jumping in when it may look like a necessity. In any case, the truth is that NOONE can be saved if they don't have the Spirit. For those who believe multitudes will be saved during a tribulation, how will they be saved if they are not "born again"? There's no indication anywhere in scripture that the working of the Holy Spirit at that time will be any different than what He has done and is doing now in the saints. Another point to remember is this: as long as there are saints upon the earth, part of the "church" is here (Eph. 1:22-23). The Body of Christ=the Church. The Church is not a "part" of the Body of Christ.Blessings in Him, Cindy

bro KrispyLet me ask you this... you would think that if God's people were still here during the Tribulation that someone would have the spiritual discernment to recognize the anti-Christ for who he is, right? At that point, how is Christ's return as "a theif in the night"? All we'd have to do is back up and look at when the anti-Christ came on the scene and signed the peace treaty in the middle east... and start counting. There is no surprise in that. We could then determine... ok 7 years and Christ is coming back.you would also think that we being Christ's Church would have learned from the disobedience of Israel and and not followed in her footsteps in terms of how we treat God...well we know what the deal with that is don't we.now Christ says noone knows the day not the hour but i think the saints will be on the lookout for Him because they know their redemption drawth nigh praise God. we'd know the year perhaps but not the day nor the hour...that is known only to the Father and not even Christ Himself. The other thing is this. We're gonna be caught up in the air, right? This is scriptural. How are we caught up in the air when Christ is returning at the end of the 7 years to set up His 1000 year reign on the earth? When are we caught up in the air? Chronologically it has to happen BEFORE Christ sets up His kingdom.hey man, we could get caught up the instant before He returns, when He is on His way down to set His feet on the mount of olives. that's still before He comes to establish the Kingdom, He's on His way, just not there yet. We come BACK with Christ at the end of the 7 years to rule and reign with Him. We have to go up before we can come back down.check out revelation 20 vs 4, not everyone rules with Him, there have to be people subject to this rule. those which rule with Christ are the ones who were martyred for His witness. so then it is the martrys who rule with Christ for this 1000 yr period, not everyone else.I know we all like to fancy ourselves as being strong enough to go thru the Tribulation. But I personally think that thinking is akin to the Purgatory thinking of the RCC... we have to go thru fire in order to win God's favor. I'm not saying you post-tribbers are thinking like that, just saying that to me that way of thinking is similar to it.personally bro Krispy, i'm a pan tribber, everything will pan out. i know i'm not strong enough to endure the tribulation yet the Lord said to me i'll be there. at first i told Him what i thought of that plan...then i realized that He was not looking for me to endure of my own strength coz i know and He knows i can't do that but by His own Spirit i shall be able to endure. that changed my perspective from "God, i think that's a bad idea" to "ok God lets do this!" it's not about trying to curry favour with God at all but it is because of the realization that the Lord has purposed to glorify His name in me and through me (as He has done and is doing in others) through persecution and martyrdom and that the Lord Himself will hold me up till it's done, i'm cool with it. i look forward to it. bro enduring trials shows the Lord's favour on a person as does anything else God does, if the Lord's favour wasn't upon the person there is no way he or she would endure. now there is reward for this but that's not what's driving me though.if the Lord has it for me to be front and centre in heaven lets say, then that's where i want to be, not in the second row centre or even front and one seat over from centre but front and centre. nothing more nor less. however this is a reflection of how much the Lord has glorified Himself inme and through me on this side so my desire is for the Lord to glorify Himself in me and through me exactly according to what He wants, all the way.ey man, you can think that this is similar to the purgatory thing but i assure you it's not as far as i'm concerned, maybe for some though. i just want to see the Lord glorified to the measure He has purposed in my life, therein is my drive.

Again, there will be those who are saved during the Tribulation.Do you believe they are part of the Church/Body of Christ Krispy? In Him, Cindy

bro KrispyThere are those who will be saved during the Tribulation, IRONMAN... would these not be the saints you'r referring to? Say the rapture happens today (I hope!), there will be a lot people who are just filling pews that will suddenly wake up and get saved, but they are stuck here till the end. I believe these will be those saints your talking about.no doubt some of those people who wake up after the rapture will wake up upon witnessing it. i still don't think that the whole church will go though becuase not everyone who says they are a Christian really is one. these people will also need some saints who are more mature to help them along the way during this time and so there will be some of us left behind to tend to these saints and those who get saved even after that up till the very last possible moment. if the whole Church is swept away, who will be left to preach the gospel or even minister to the ones who are left behind. it seems to me this whole rapture thing where the whole Church escapes is escapism or an attempt to bypass the cross or the suffering which comes with our faith to our own detriment. if we run around here thinking "eh, we're gonna be raptured so what the hey" then we will be sorely disappointed. we should be ready for the very worst which may well be death at the 11th hour and 59th minite and second, but guess what...that martyrdom means ruling with Christ over everyone else for a thousand years...if that's where the Lord wants you, then you'll be there.still don't understand the trepidation over suffering, especially in light of this portion of Romans 8Romans 8:31-39 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

sis CindyOk Krisp, I had thought you were firmly pre-trib years ago. As for the passage concerning what "restrains", that would be II Thess. 2. The thing is that that "day" will not come----what day? .........our gathering and the coming of our Lord (1 event) until the falling away (defection from the truth-apostasy) AND the man of sin being revealed. The church WILL be here until those two events happen.whoa! hadn't even thought of that...this is the beauty of fellowship...the Lord's revelation to the individual and how it edifies the body!As for "who restrains", the church or Holy Spirit, it does not matter. The scripture does not say that the restrainer will be removed from the earth. "Something" is restraining the evil.....and when that restaint is moved out of the way (not taken away), then evil will be given the chance to take over. Moving out of the midst can mean to "move out from the middle to the side", kinda like watching from the sidelines, but not jumping in when it may look like a necessity.well i still feel that this restrainer is not the Church because not the whole Church is raptured and it's not Holy Spirit either because the Church needs Him, i suggested in an earlier post that it may well be an angel. i doubt it's the Church because rather than holding back evil, we are some of the biggest perpetrators of evil, we have blood on our skirts.editalso the word says "he that restrains" this rules out the Church for we are the Bride of Christ.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I have heard many Bible teachers state that the Holy Spirit will go up with the Church in the pre-trib rapture. If this is so, how are people saved? For the Spirit is the one who convicts of sin, righteousness, judgement. Also, if ther happens to be a new dispensation in which people are saved some other way other than Christ's blood, and the conviction of the Spirit, is this not on the border of blaspemous? Just so you know, I was involved in a movement that only allows for the pre-trib thought. So when I began to ask questions, I was told to agree or leave. So I know that this can be a touchy subject. SOO let's stay in the Spirit, and answer in love. :-P

isn't anyone who is saved a member of the body of Christ?Maybe I sould go back to being pan-trib for the sake of argument, and hold to pre-trib privately! LOLlol :-P or maybe pre-tribbers need to reconsider their position. i'm pan trib i think, it'll all pan out and people will get raptured throughout, some in death though.

Maybe I sould go back to being pan-trib for the sake of argument, and hold to pre-trib privately! LOLNow now Krispy. I thought you knew the Bible better than that. 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. That means you have to make your interpretation public, right? :-P

sis Dorcas et alsis dorcas you said Could it be Satan who has the power to restrain the Lawless One, until he is ready to unleash or reveal the Lawless One's demonstration of evil power?i checked out the corresponding scripture which is 2 thessalonians vs 7. somehow for me the person/thing holding back the Lawless One or man of perdition couldn't be the Church because this person/thing is referred to as "he" being the bride of Christ i know that's not us and the Lord's Holy Spirit didn't fit here either for me because He is moving and shaking things as we speak yet the enemy does have much influence already. at any rate either way you cut this cake the Church is around because the falling away can only happen among the body of believers or those who say they are members thereof not among the heathen. when antichrist is revealed that is during the tribulation (though at the beginning) so the whole Church will be here at least for that. even so not everyone will be raptured because even up till the end there will be people being persecuted and martyrd for Christ, the beheaded of which will rule with Him for 1000 yrs. anyhoo i looked up the Matthew Henry commentary on this person and i think we'll all be pretty surprised (hey i know i was) at who this is.His rise is mentioned, v. 6, 7. Concerning this we are to observe two things:—(1.) There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived. (2.) This mystery of iniquity was gradually to arrive at its height; and so it was in effect that the universal corruption of doctrine and worship in the Romish church came in by degrees, and the usurpation of the bishops of Rome was gradual, not all at once; and thus the mystery of iniquity did the more easily, and almost insensibly, prevail. The apostle justly calls it a mystery of iniquity, because wicked designs and actions were concealed under false shows and pretences, at least they were concealed from the common view and observation. By pretended devotion, superstition and idolatry were advanced; and, by a pretended zeal for God and his glory, bigotry and persecution were promoted. And he tells us that this mystery of iniquity did even then begin, or did already work. While the apostles were yet living, the enemy came, and sowed tares; there were then the deeds of the Nicolaitans, persons who pretended zeal for Christ, but really opposed him. Pride, ambition, and worldly interest of church-pastors and church-rulers, as in Diotrephes and others, were the early working of the mystery of iniquity, which, by degrees, came to that prodigious height which has been visible in the church of Rome. 4. The fall or ruin of the antichristian state is declared, v. 8. The head of this antichristian kingdom is called that wicked one, or that lawless person who sets up a human power in competition with, and contradiction to, the divine dominion and power of the Lord Jesus Christ; but, as he would thus manifest himself to be the man of sin, so the revelation or discovery of this to the world would be the sure presage and the means of his ruin. brethren there is so much yet to consider. Lord make it plain to us. AMEN.

bro KrispyHow did God create the world? We're fooling ourselves if we think we'll ever be able to answer all the questions. Thats why more and more I am beginning to view debating as futile. I mean really... what are we accomplishing? Back and forth... back and forth... someone says this and someone counters it... then someone counters the counter... and etc etc... for what?well i think we all have so much to learn and scripture is deep and the Lord reveals this part to this one and that part to that one so that we are all edified. if we have to discard prior beliefs in light of scripture and revelation so be it. love you bro and perhaps you're a bit too public ey :-P

i suggested in an earlier post that it may well be an angel.Yes, some people believe the restrainer is Michael, spoken of in Dan. 12:1 as it appears when he "stands up", great evil is allowed to occur on the earth. Blessings in Him, Cindy

Maybe I sould go back to being pan-trib for the sake of argument, and hold to pre-trib privately! LOLLOL......... :-P That would be the safer bet, eh?? Blessings bro. In Him, Cindy

HI Linn, Quote: know and love you 'Christinyou' logo, but, how do you normally deal with this:Ephesians 2:6 KJVAnd hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: NKJV6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, Before I was in heavenly places I was in earthly places with a deathly taskmaster and had nothing but separation from God available to me. Now I have a loving Master that is mine and I am HIS. He is seated in Heavenly Places and I am seated with Him. I am no longer the person I used to be. I am now a son of God living on this earth just passing through in this school house that is preparing me to live in the Father's House.I don't think of this as just a spiritual fantasy that I belong to. It says that I am dead to sin and alive unto God. I take this literally and believe that is where I am now.Romans 6:8-14 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.Reckon, a big word. 3049. logizomaiSearch for G3049 in KJVSLlogizomai logizomai log-id'-zom-aheemiddle voice from 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):--conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).I am already there, and learning to be there, and some day in body I will be there. Christ in you too: Phillip

He will be revealed to the discerning Judeo-Christians by a seven year contract that allows the re-establishment of daily (blood) sacrifice by the Jews (Daniel 9:27).Daniel 9:27 (NIV) He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’ but in the middle of that ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And one who causes desolation will place abominations on a wing of the temple until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."Whoever is able to make the covenant (contract) that allows re-establishment of daily sacrifice is the Antichrist. At that precise moment in time, we will be in the Tribulation. The seven year clock of the Tribulation will have started.Daniel 8:9-14 (NIV) Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. 12 Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground. 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled--the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?" 14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."http://www.angelfire.com/ca/endtime/trib.htmlIn Christ: Phillip

One of the first questions that a Christian friend and work mate asked when I informed him that I had been saved was "Are you Pre-trib, or Post-trib". My immediate response was "huh". I have spent a bit of time looking over the word of God since then, and my response now would be "neither". I offer up this insight for your thoughts.**Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. There will be a seven year peace treaty agreed to between Israel and her Arab neighbors, that will include an agreement to let Israel rebuild the temple. At the same time a leader of the Ecumenical Church will make a public declaration that they no longer believe that Jesus is the only way of salvation.For 1290 days (31/2 years) persecution will get worse and worse against the Bride, and the nation of Israel. After the 1290 days "all hell breaks loose" as the Bride, and Israel rise up against the anti-Christ.Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be helped with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. I think these verses are quite clear that believers are here and paying for their witness with their lives.The Scripture also teaches that the final, 70th week of Daniel is "cut short"Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that the translation of the Saints happens EXACTLY 45 days after the "man of sin" (anti-Christ) declares himself God from the newly re-constructed temple.Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. The 70th week of Daniel has two parts. The first half is increasing persicution against those that follow God. The second part is the "Great Tribulation" When Satan unleashes all his fury against God's people, therefore God shortens the time to 45 days so that some could be preserved alive. Just a few of my thoughts on the topic. Blessings to all, Greg :-)

bro Karlthe treaty with Israel will facillitate the rebuilding of the temple on the temple mount upon which sits the dome of the rock, a holy muslim site. this is the temple mentioned in rev 11 vs 1-2 which has the outer court trampled on for 3 and a half years (42 months) which is the latter or great tribulation period. in daniel 8 vs 25 the word speaks of this man who will destroy wonderfully and with peace shall destroy many which is the tactic of signing all kinds of accords by which people are subdued and have their rights encroached upon and then taken away altogether. this scripture hereDaniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.seems to be talking about the redemptive work of Christ. this one who confirms the covenant is the same who was cut off after 62 wks in the preceding section which is the Messiah.so you are right in as much as this consummation of the covenant is through Christ before God. the thing is though for the temple to be rebuilt so it can be later dessecrated by antichrist, some sort of deal must be brokered with the arabs because they will blow up the world before they let the Jewish temple replace the temple mount. that's the treaty which we're on about.

Healingwaters:Just for the record I am a 45 days after mid- trib man. I will get into my notes, and post the scriptures concerning the peace accord after I get a little shut eye.. My eyelids are at half mast. Nite all, I will check my research and post more conclusive text tomorrow..Greg

Wow, this topic really took off.I am not as firm on this subject as others, so don't try to beat me up, I am just looking for answers and stating what I read.After looking over Rev 20, I read that "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."And then after this thousand years, Satan is loosed to compass the camp of the saints. I get the idea that the rapture has not occured at this point. It does not speak of a meeting in the air, but a resurrection.It seems that we would be "caught up" after this thousand years.Tell me if anyone agrees or tell me I am way off:1) Falling away, appearance of anti-Christ2) Worldly Tribulation/mark of the beast, etc3) Satan Bound4) First Resurrection/millenial reign5) Satan loosed, fire devours his army6) Satan cast into Lake of Fire before the saints(is this the man that caused...)7) Judgment Day8) Death/Hell/Unbelievers cast into Lake of Fire9) RaptureI would agree with those who posted these thoughts, that it seems that God's plagues are poured out on the unbelievers, and that Satan's worldly powers are the ones going after the saints. God punishing unbelievers, Satan attacking believers.What am I? Post-, confused, or what?

sis annieit seems to me that those who rule with Christ are the ones who are beheaded for His witness. at first in reading that passage i thought it meant all the martyrs and upon reading it again i saw that it was specifically those who were beheaded who rule with Christ during this time over whoever is left alive and whoever is resurrected first.

The important thing is to be ready no matter when this meeting in the air takes place.Get rightorGet left

sis anniewell not necessarily would there have to be multiple resurrections. we know that there are 2, one before the 1000 yrs and the other after. now what i was getting at was that the beheaded who are the overcomers are the ones that will rule with Christ 1000 yrs. now in verse 6 it speaks now of everyone who is reserrected the first time around and in chapt 19 it talks of the great multitude in heaven which it seems are the ones who are ruled over including those alive at the time. but those will be priests of God though. perhaps the dead who are resurrected at the end of the millenaial reign maybe the dead which are killed after satan is loosed from the pit after the 1000 yrs? we're not sure how long he has to deceive the nations,but i think some of those let alive during the millenial reign won't be saved yet. whoa...much to consider still

bro Karlthere are some things which i perceive to be symbolic though the vast majority of things people think are symbolism the Lord has shown me are indeed literal. you don't have to believe as i do and i see you don't which is fine, we should pray the Lord's enlightenment on us. hey man i'm not the brightest in the bunch so i start with the assumption it is literal and unless i hear otherwise from heaven, i'm keepin it locked right there, trying to figure out what this and that means is really hard, my brain can only beshut down and rebooted so many times now...well you may be on a jet and me in a prop-chop but i'ma get there maybe after you though...well then there is the story of the tortoise and the hare... :-P

bro KarlFor many years I held to a Post Tribulation teaching and I was very dogmatic about my position. If you knew me than, we would have blended in quite well together. Ironman, you would have adored me.bro i love you now, and whether you like it or not we're bound by the love of God. now i'd been thinking about my stance on it and it's pan trib, it'll all pan out. i guess where i am coming from (and i figured this out yesterday) that what the Lord has shown me in terms of the work He has for me seems to go deep into the tribulation (the Lord showed me martrydom) so it seems i've been applying that to the whole Church when it doesn't, not sure that makes sense and these revelations are only now falling into place so as to make sense. if you want to know more i could email/p.m. you about it, if not it's cool too.bro karl itsn't it amazing that the Lord has even hose with opposing views in His body for the purpose of edifying one another and rubbing us against eachother to shine us up as bro Rahman says?love you bro

bro Karlyou quotes this scriptureJesus said, John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.indeed, the principalities and powers inflicted all they could upon Christ, all they could muster and it was for nought so they have been made a spectacle. now we not only have Christ's example but the Lord's own Holy Spirit who will be whatever we require in our service to God, courage, good cheer, wisdom etc.In this world, we are going to have tribulation, I believe that with all my heart and just to link that with another key scripture it says,indeed and history confirms it. let it be known that we will taking a licking for the Lord's sake, but in this way those which are God's will indeed be known for they have God's grace and without that noone can stand the fire of refinement. We could ask the Chinese who suffer persecution or any believer in the Sudan, "do you believe that we shall go thru the great tribulation", they will answer you, "I don't know what your talking about, we are in tribulation". indeed bro, they are already being refined by the fire and are being purified to the level the Lord requires. In the West we have the priviledge of debating and talking about it, but they are living in it. I sometimes think that they have it good. I don't wish any tribulation or persecution on anyone, however if we are going to be partakers of His glory we must endure somethings. Amenwell we do have that priviledge yet i think they are so much more priviledged than we for they see the Lord's provision and grace in a light we don't as yet, but we too shall soon know what it is to suffer for Chirst. for if we are to be partakers of His glory, we must share in His suffering. AMEN and AMEN indeed.I pray that when the times comes when you are offered up brother I hope your soul will be so full of joy that you be laughing at the face of the enemy. Oh death where is your sting, O grave where is thy victory?bro thank you for that word and prayer of encouragement. that is my prayer too. the best part is i get to go home at last praise God!

After listening to the Pre-Trib reasoning for 20 odd years and knowing in my spirit that it was not correct I have found someone who can not only back it up by a "feeling" but by a very sound, well thought out outline of the end times.I believe the "Left Behind" series will prove to be one of the best tools invented, promoted by Satan to decieve the end time church into falling away. If a billion christians think they are going to be raptured away...that God will come back for a church unpurified as the Pre-trib outlook promotes...but find that God has not come to "rescue" them from the Tribulation in the sense of escaping unscathed, as one who does not go through the fire...they will become offended at God. They will fall away and toward the false church which will be even more visible, more powerful than it already is...a unified "One World Church". There are so many reasons why a pre-trib outlook does not work.Here is the outline for any one serious enough to consider what will happen...soon it seems.I will post in bite size pieces for ease of read.I.\tDAY OF THE LORD: TWO EXTREMES AT THE END-OF-THE-AGE The day of the LORD is Great and very Terrible (Joel 2:11; Mal. 4:5)A.\tThe Day of the Lord refers to the unusual End-Time events related to the Second Coming of Jesus. These events (positive and negative) will come to fullness in the final 3½ years before Jesus returns. 1.\tIt will be a Great Day for the responsive and the greatest revival in history. 2.\tIt will be a very Terrible Day to the rebellious because they will experience the most severe judgments of God in all history as well as experiencing Satan’s rage against them.B.\tWe will look at the positive trends, events and people of the Great Day as well as the negative trends, events and people of the very Terrible Day (they are building momentum even now).II.\tTHE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD: POSITIVE TRENDS A.\tThe greatest revival in history with a victorious Church full of God’s glory (Eph. 5:26-27; 3;19; 4:13; Mt. 16:18; 22:37; Jn. 17:21-26; Rev. 7:9; 12:11; 15:2; 19:7-8; 22:17). It will include miracles seen in the book Acts and the book of Exodus that will be combined and multiplied on a global scale. It will be the greatest outpouring of the Spirit with great power (Joel 2:28-32).B.\tThe Great Ingathering of souls of probably over 1 billion (Mt. 24:14; Rev. 5:9; 7:9, 14; 14:6).A great multitude...no one could number of all nations...out of the Tribulation... (Rev. 7:9, 14) C.\tThe spirit of prophecy will rest on every believer (Acts 2:17; Jer. 31:9; 23:8-20; Dan. 11:33-35; Isa. 26:9; Rev. 11:3-6; 18:20; Mt. 17:11; Mal. 4:6; Jn. 14:12). I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and daughters shall prophesy... (Acts 2:17) D.\tThe bridal paradigm will be established in the Church resulting in believers being ravished with courageous love in encountering Jesus as the Bridegroom God (Rev. 22:17; Hos. 2:16; Mt. 25:8). The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come!" (Rev. 22:17) E.\tThe worship and prayer movement will operate in great authority (Lk. 18:7-8; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-5; 22:17, 20; Isa. 62:6-7; 24:14-16; 25:9; 26:8-9; 27:2-5, 13; 30:18-19; 42:10-13; Joel 2:12-17). F.\tSupernatural provision of food and water, etc. God will manifest His provision like He did in Exodus. God miraculously provided all the needs of His people as they journeyed through the wilderness. He caused food to fall from the sky and He brought water from a rock. As in the days when you came out of...Egypt, I will show them wonders. (Mic. 7:15) G.\tSupernatural guidance by prophetic revelation (Jer. 31:9; Joel 2:28) as the Lord directs His people to safety, to provision (food, water and refuge), to reconnect in relationships, to be at the right place at the right time, to escape the earthquake, bombs, or the ambush of the enemy. H.\tSupernatural protection (pockets of mercy). God will seal individual saints protecting them from judgments (Rev. 7:2-3; 9:4; Ezek. 9:4-6; Ps. 91:5-7). Do not harm the earth...or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God... (Rev. 7:3) Commanded not to harm the grass...but only those who do not have the seal of God... (Rev. 9:4) 1.\tThe Goshen Principle (Ex. 8:22-23; 9:4-6, 26; 10:23; 11:7): God did not allow the plagues of Egypt to touch the land of Goshen, where His people lived. When God’s judgment fell on Egypt, God protected Israel. For example, Israel’s livestock did not die (Ex. 9:4-6), they had no hail (Ex. 9:26), no swarms of flies (Ex. 8:22) and had light (Ex. 10:23). I will set apart the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there...23 I will make a difference between My people and your people. (Ex. 8:22-23) 2.\tPockets of mercy refers to geographic areas in which God’s people will be protected from His wrath. Prayer can make a difference in various regions (Joel 2:13-14; 3:16). Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth…IT MAY BE that you will be hidden (protected) in the day of the LORD's anger (judgments) (Zeph. 2:3).I also withheld rain from you...I made it rain on one city, I withheld rain from another city. One part was rained upon, and where it did not rain the part withered. 8 So two or three cities wandered to another city to drink water... (Amos 4:7-8)

III.\tTHE BIBLICAL PARADIGM: JESUS’ SECOND COMING AND THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM A.\tOne of the greatest and most prominent themes in Scripture is Jesus’ Second Coming to establish God’s Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. We must have the right perspective (paradigm) to understand these truths. Jesus will rule the earth with the natural human processes not suspended, yet significantly enhanced by the supernatural dimension of the Spirit. We see aspects of this when Jesus appeared with His resurrected body (Jn. 20-21; Acts 1). B.\tThe centerpiece of God’s eternal purpose is for Jesus to come back to fully establish His Kingdom rule over all the earth as He joins the heavenly and earthly realms together. Having made known...the mystery (hidden plan) of His will... 10 that He might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth. (Eph. 1:9-10) C.\tHeaven speaks of the supernatural realm where God’s power and presence are fully manifest. Earth speaks of the material physical realm as the place where human process, emotions and physical sensation reach their fullest expression. D.\tGentile believers usually think of worshipping Jesus as God in the supernatural conditions of heaven. We emphasize Jesus’ deity as the Son of God. Whereas, the Jewish paradigm thinks of reigning with the Messianic King as a man in the natural conditions of the earth. They emphasize the Messiah’s humanity as the Son of David. The full truth is only seen when these two paradigms are brought together.E.\tThere are three types of people on earth when Jesus appears in the sky to rapture the Church. The redeemed will be raptured. The reprobate who took the mark of the Beast will be captured and then executed. The resistors are the unsaved survivors of the Great Tribulation who refused to worship the Antichrist and take his mark. Consider how many unbelievers resisted Hitler without regard to their relationship with God. These will include both Gentiles as well as the unsaved remnant of Israel. The Scripture refers to these as “those who are “left” or “who remain.” These will have an opportunity to be converted after Jesus returns and then to populate the Millennial earth. (Isa. 4:3; 10:20; 11:11; 49:6; 65:8; 66:19; Jer. 31:2; Ezek. 20:38-42; 36:36; Dan. 12:1; Amos 9:9-10; Joel 2:32; Zech. 12:14; 13:8; 14:16). F.\tJesus’ 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom – is one of the major revelations of Scripture. It speaks of Jesus’ establishing God’s Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus will rule all the governments on earth as King of kings after He binds Satan and casts him in prison (Rev. 20:1-6; Isa. 2:1-4; 9:6-9; 11:1-16; 51:1-8; 60-62; 65:17-25; Ps. 2:6-12; 110:1-7; Mt. 5:5; 6:10; 17:11; 19:28; 28:19; Acts 1:6; 3:21). The term millennium is from the Latin “mille”(a thousand), and “annus”(a year).Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. (Matt. 6:10)G.\tAt this time the Kingdom of God will be established on earth affecting every sphere of life (political, economic, spiritual, educational, agricultural, family, media, arts, technology, athletics, environment, social institutions, etc). This period will be initiated by Jesus' Second Coming. H.\tJesus will rule in perfect righteousness, prosperity and continual peace allowing resurrected saints with glorified bodies to rule with Him over the governments of the Millennial earth. Jesus as King of Kings, will personally govern a worldwide Kingdom in partnership with resurrected saints who rule with Him in establishing a biblically based, social order (Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4-6; 22:5; Mt. 19:28; 20:21-23; 25:23; Lk. 19:17-19; 22:29-30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rom 8:17). They shall be priests of God….and shall reign with Him a 1,000 years. (Rev. 20:6) I.\tThe Apostles will rule with Jesus on earth after the Second Coming. Jesus said, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration (Millennial Kingdom), when the Son of Man sits on the Throne of His glory (in Millennial Jerusalem), you who have followed Me will also sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.” (Mt. 19:28)I bestow upon you a Kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. (Lk. 22:29-30) J.\tJesus will rule the entire earth from Jerusalem (1 Chr. 23:25; 2 Chr. 7:16; 30:8; 33:4, 7; Ps. 2:6; Isa. 2:3; 4:2-6; 24:23; 27:13; 59:20; 60:13-14; 62:1, 7; 65:18; 66:20; Jer. 3:17; 31:12; Ezek. 37:28; 43:4, 7; Joel 3:17; Mic. 4:2; Zech. 6:12-13; 8:2-3; 14:10; Mt. 5:35)Jerusalem shall be called the Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. (Jeremiah 3:17)K.\tIn the Millennium all the kings of the earth will be saved and worship Jesus (Ps. 72:11; 102:15; 138:4; 148:11; Isa. 62:2; Rev. 21:24) and base their national governments on the Scriptures. The result will be a 1000-year period of peace, righteousness, prosperity, and unprecedented blessing for the whole earth as Jesus restores the agriculture, atmosphere, and animal life, etc. He will restore part of this earth to the conditions of the Garden of Eden.

IV.\tTHE SECOND COMING OF JESUSA.\tJesus will come to earth to sit on an earthly Throne as King over all kings (Rev. 19:15-16). I refer to the many different events associated with Jesus’ Second Coming as the “Second Coming Procession.” The nature of the Second Coming events is a 3 stage process that includes many events instead of it being only one event that happens one afternoon. B.\tStage #1: Jesus’ procession across entire earth in the sky: to rapture the saints (Mt. 24:30-31; Rev. 1:7). Jesus will be seen by every eye of every person (believers and unbelievers), from all the tribes of the earth. This requires a global procession over every inhabited place on earth. C.\tStage #2: Jesus’ procession on the land: traveling through Jordan killing the rebellious armies that are in alliance with the Antichrist to end the Armageddon campaign (Isa. 63:1-6; Hab. 3:3-18). D.\tStage #3: Jesus’ procession into Jerusalem: on to the Mt of Olives followed by His coronation Jesus will be invited by Israel’s governmental leaders to rule them (Mt. 23:39; Ps. 24:7-10; Zech. 14:4). Jesus enters Jerusalem as the King of kings using the 7 Bowls of wrath (as Moses did against Pharaoh) to destroy the armies of the Antichrist. He kills His enemies to end the Armageddon campaign with an astonishing victory at the Battle of Jerusalem (Rev. 19:11-21).E.\tJesus descends from heaven possibly to Mt. Sinai (Mt. Horeb) which is called the Mountain of God (Ex. 3:1; 4:27). Then He will march through the wilderness (Teman, Mt. Paran, Mt. Seir) through Jordan (Edom, Bozrah, Moab) killing His enemies on His way to Jerusalem. Their blood will be sprinkled on His robes (Isa. 34:5-10; 63:1-6; Hab. 3:3-15; Zech. 9:14; Ps. 110:5-6; Rev. 19:11-16). This march will involve natural human processes enhanced with significant supernatural power. Who is this who comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah (capital of Edom), this One who is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of His strength?-- "I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." 2 Why is Your apparel red, and Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? 3 "...I have trodden them in My anger, and trampled them in My fury; their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, and I have stained all My robes. 4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart..." (Isa. 63:1-4) F.\tJesus’ coming is a procession because He comes from heaven with all the saints (1 Thes. 3:13) and all the angels (Mt. 25:31). He will travel on the clouds across the whole earth until every individual sees Him (Mt. 24:30). He will come with the Father's glory (Mt. 16:27; 24:27-31), with great power (Mk. 13:26) and flaming fire (2 Thes. 1:8) and with the brightness and energy of lightning (Mt. 24:27). He will be announced with a shout, the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God as He raises the dead. (1 Thes. 4:14-17). Jesus will come as King of kings and will kill the rebellious armies of the earth (Rev. 19:11-16). The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (Mt. 24:29). V.\tTHE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD: THE POSITIVE EVENTS AND PEOPLE A.\tJesus’ Second Coming to establish His Millennial Kingdom is the ultimate prophetic theme. Scripture calls His coming our blessed hope (Titus 2:13) The NT has over 300 references to this.B.\tThe Rapture of the Church – as Jesus descends from heaven, He will rapture or “catch up” all the saints in the air from one end of the sky to the other to meet Jesus.For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord... (1 Thes. 4:16-17) 1.\tThe saints will be instantly changed by being given resurrected bodies that radiate His glory (1 Thes. 4:13-18; 2 Thes. 2:1; 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 41-43; Mt. 13:30, 40-43; 24:30-31). We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trumpet...the dead will be raised... (1 Cor. 15:51-52) 2.\tThe Rapture will not be a secret event, but a dramatic event that all the people on earth will witness with their natural eye (rather than seeing Him in a mystical vision or by technology). The Rapture will be a process that takes time to complete. For example, the people in the Pacific islands will not see Him at the same time as those in the Mediterranean islands. Since the earth is round, it is impossible for all the people on the earth to see Him at the same time. Jesus must cover each longitude and latitude in order for each person to see Him in person as He arrives over their region. What height and speed will Jesus travel at so as to be recognizable to people on the earth with the naked eye? His procession across the sky requires that Jesus be close enough to be seen and the process is slow enough for each person (not raptured) to interpret the significance of what is happening so that they mourn.3.\tThe Last Trumpet or the 7th Trumpet initiates the Second Coming procession thus the Rapture (Rev. 11:15-18; 1 Cor. 15:50-52). The fact of the Rapture is a glorious doctrine, however, a deception today relates to its timing in occurring before the Tribulation. C.\tThe Marriage supper of the Lamb and the rewards for each believer occurs in context to the Second Coming and the Rapture (Rev. 19:7-10). The Second Coming describes what Jesus does when He comes back to earth as the Rapture describes what happens to the Church when Jesus appears in the sky. The Second Coming and the Rapture occur in the same time frame. D.\tThe Two Witnesses (prophets) will preach with great power and release God’s judgments for 3½ years during the Great Tribulation. They will work miracles like Moses and Elijah (Mal. 4:5).I will give power to my Two Witnesses, and they will prophesy 1,260 days...5 if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth...6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. (Rev. 11:3-6)E.\tThe 144,000 sealed Jewish believers (Rev. 7:4-8; 14:1-5) are prophetic singers who preach the gospel in power during last 3½ years. They will be divinely sealed or protected by the power of God in the midst of God’s judgments. Other believers (Gentiles) are sealed by God for protection (Rev 9:4; Ezek 9:6). The Goshen Principle (Ex. 8:22-23; 9:4, 6, 26; Zeph. 2:3; Ps. 91).F.\tThe salvation of Israel (Rom. 11:12-15, 25-26) occur as the Church provokes Israel to jealousy by standing with them in affliction and by operating in the power of God (Matt. 25:32-46).G.\tJesus’ victory in the Armageddon Campaign (continues for a 3½ year period) destroys the worldwide empire of the Antichrist and False Prophet along with their armies (Rev. 16:16; 19:11-21; Mt. 25:31-32). The final military conflict will be between Jesus and the Antichrist. Blood is spilled for over 200 miles throughout Israel (Rev. 14:20; Joel 3:2-15; Zech. 14:1-5; Zeph. 3:8).H.\tGod’s judgment on the Great Harlot Babylon (Rev. 17) – is a judgment on this worldwide demonic economic and religious network that seduces many to follow evil and to persecute the saints. God’s wrath will come on Babylon in two stages. The angel proclaimed a double fall of Babylon (Rev. 14:8). Rev. 17-18 describes the two falls of Babylon. The first phrase of fall of Babylon (Rev. 17) relates to worldwide religion system of toleration and syncretism. This will fall in middle of the 7 year period at the hands of the ten kings (Rev. 17:16). The 10 kings burned the Harlot religious system and replaced it with the Antichrist’s religious system that will be based in part of the city of Babylon. Babylon will be established as one of the Antichrist’s headquarters. This second phase of judgment (Rev. 18) will be the collapse of the Antichrist’s worldwide economic system at the end of the 7 year period at the hands of God (Rev. 18:8).

VI.\tVERY TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD: THE GREAT TRIBULATION When you see the 'Abomination of Desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...21 for then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved (physically killed); but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. (Mt. 24:15, 21-22)A.\tThe very Terrible Day will be the greatest crisis in history called the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21; Jer. 30:7; Dan. 12:1; Rev. 3:10) emphasizing the negative dimensions of the 3½ years before Jesus’ return. The great trouble will be caused by the wrath of God on the rebellious by the Antichrist’s reign of terror and the actions of evil people (on both believers and unbelievers) along with convulsions in nature (earthquakes, storms, etc). B.\tThe Antichrist brings tribulation to the saints using his worldwide government (Rev. 13). God brings tribulation against the people in the Antichrist’s empire by the 3 numbered judgment series which are three groups of judgments (7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls of wrath) as described in Rev. 6-19. They describe 21 judgments on the Antichrist that continue through the final 3½ years. C.\tThere are two seasons of time, where people die unnatural deaths (totaling 50% of the population). Behold, a pale horse. The name of him who sat on it was Death...and power was given to them over ¼ of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by beasts…. (Rev. 6:8)The four angels...were released to kill 1/3 of mankind. (Rev. 9:15)D.\tThe purpose of the Great Tribulation is to purify God's people through affliction (Eph. 5:27; Rev. 19: 7-8; Dan 11:35; 12:10), release the Ingathering of souls (including the salvation of Israel), vindicate the saints, expose false believers within the Church, and demonstrate God’s power in protecting the saints (Rom. 9:17). It expresses God’s justice in punishing sin (2 Thes. 1:6-10; Isa. 26:21), and purging the earth from sin (Isa. 24:4-6; Zech. 13:2) before the Millennial Kingdom. E.\tThe principle of judgment: God uses the least severe means to reach the greatest number of people at the deepest level of love without violating anyone’s free will in training the rulers of the earth.VII.\tVERY TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD: FOUR NEGATIVE TRENDS A.\tFullness of God’s judgment (Rev. 14:7; 15:7) includes the 7 seals (Rev. 6), the 7 trumpets (Rev. 8:9) and the 7 bowls of wrath (Rev. 16) as judgment on the Antichrist’s infrastructure.The wrath of God which is poured out full strength (Rev. 14:10) B.\tFullness of Satan’s rage (Rev. 12:12; 9:21; Dan. 7:21, 25; Rev. 13)Woe to the inhabitants of the earth…! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. (Rev. 12: 12)C.\tFullness of man’s sin which comes to maturity (Rev. 9:21; 14:18; 17:5; 18:5; Dan. 8:23; 12:10).They did not repent of their murders...sorceries...sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev. 9:21)1. Murder – the primary sin on earth (Rev. 6:9-11; 7:13-14; 9:21; 13:7, 10; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:2; 2 Tim. 3:3 (brutal); Dan. 7:21, 25; 8:24; 11:33-35; 12:7, 10; Mk. 13:12:13). 2. Sorceries (occult/deception/oppression) Rev. 13:3-4, 8, 12-15; 14:11; 16:13-14; 18:23; Matt. 24:5, 11, 12, 24; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Thes. 2:3-43. Immorality – demonized with perversion (Rev. 9:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:3; 19:2; 2 Pet. 3:3).4. Theft – legislation (anti-Semitism, etc), persecution, mark of the Beast, etc. D.\tFullness of Creation’s groan (Rom. 8:19-24) – the land is directly related to the sin of its inhabitants. Creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans... (Rom. 8:21-22) VIII.\tVERY TERRIBLE DAY: NEGATIVE EVENTS AND PEOPLE A.\tThe Antichrist (Rev. 13) – is the final world leader who wages war against God and persecutes His people. He has a political, military and economic alliance with a ten-nation confederation. He will have the largest army, and the most money and power (spiritual/political/military) of any man in history. He will use demonic miracles to deceive (Rev. 13:12-14) and the political process to kill resistors (Rev. 13:15) using economic oppression (Rev. 13:16-17). The Antichrist will be a cruel man without reason or mercy, like a wild beast. The Antichrist is called the “Beast” 36 times in Revelation.B.\tA 10-nation confederation is a political, military and economic alliance of ten nations that provides the Antichrist the with the greatest natural power base of any leader in history. Gog (Antichrist) and Magog (revived Roman Empire) provide the power base of this world empire (Dan. 7:1-8; Ezek. 38:2-6). The power of the unified resources of 10-nations is beyond any other empire in history (Dan. 11:36-45). The four components of the Antichrist's empire are political authority (10-nation confederation’s power to make laws Rev. 13:1-2; 17:16), military force (Rev. 13:4, 7), economic control (commerce, monopolies, Rev. 13:2, 15-17) and religious control (worship movement by occult powers, miracles, Rev. 13:4, 8). C.\tThe catalytic event – the Antichrist’s dramatic head wound and healing (Rev. 13:3, 12, 14). This event will be the catalyst that launches the Antichrist into world prominence. The Antichrist is seemingly killed and healed causing the nations to worship him. The Antichrist’s death and apparent healing is an imitation of Jesus' resurrection. He claims Jesus is an evil imposter. D.\tThe False Prophet (Rev. 13:11-18) – the leader of the future worldwide religious network that is devoted to causing all the nations to worship Satan and the Antichrist (Rev. 13:4, 8). His three most effective strategies will be by giving demonically empowered public speeches that are confirmed by great miracles to deceive (Rev. 13:12-14), along with the Abomination of Desolation which is based on an idol or image that is demonically empowered to breathe and speak (Rev. 13:14-16) and the mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16-17) which provides a strict way to control finances and the purchases of the necessities of life as well as being a means of daily forcing all to openly declare their loyalty or lack of loyalty to the Antichrist. He also has authority to legislate the death penalty and economic controls by instituting the mark of the Beast system. E.\tThe Abomination of Desolation – the Antichrist will declare himself to being God by setting up an idol (which is the abomination) that stands in the Jerusalem Temple. This idol (image or statue) is demonically empowered so that it is seen to think, talk, breathe, and make laws (Rev. 13:14-16). This idol will be a great abomination to God that causes God’s judgments to desolate the earth. Why? Because this idol is the greatest abomination of all history. It is the key that triggers the Antichrist’s demand to be worshipped by all nations. This abomination is backed up by demonic signs and wonders. No one can buy nor sell without worshipping the devil. All who refuse will be sought out as a criminal of the state under a real threat of martyrdom. 1.\tThe Antichrist sets an idol in the Temple causing the sacrifices to cease for exactly 1,290 days which results in the threat of every human being killed (Dan. 12:11; Mt. 24:15-22). 2.\tThis is one of the most significant prophetic signs in the End-Times. John emphasized this statue ten times (Rev. 13:14, 15 [three times]; 14:9, 11; 15:2; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4). This act of abomination will occur in the middle of the last 7 years before Jesus returns. The Abomination of Desolation is God’s title for this period of crisis. It is mentioned in Scripture 7 times plus 2 other descriptions (Dan. 8:13; 9:26, 27; 11:31; 12:11; Mt. 24:15; Mk. 13:14; 2 Thes. 2:3-4; Rev. 13:12-18). 3.\tThe Abomination (defilement, pollution) is made up of two parts. First, the Antichrist’s demand to be worshipped as God. Second, the people’s acceptance of this. The desolation is made up of two parts. First, the desolations of the Antichrist on those who refuse his demand for worship. Second, the desolations or judgments of God on those who yield to the pressure to worship the Antichrist.F.\tImage of the Beast – a supernatural image or statue (that breathes and speaks) that is set up in the Jerusalem Temple and used to serve a worldwide worship movement of the Antichrist. Dan. 3. G.\tMark of the Beast – a public mark used to identify the people who refuse to worship the Antichrist under the threat of economic sanctions and the death penalty. This mark forces all to regularly and publicly declare their loyalty to the Antichrist.H.\tThe Harlot Babylon is a worldwide economic and religious network that is filled with evil to seduce many to follow them and it will persecute the saints (Rev. 17-18). I.\tThe martyrdom of Christians – the Antichrist will make war with the saints (Dan. 7:21, 25; 8:24; 11:33-35; 12:7, 10; Rev. 6:9-11; 7:9, 14; 9:21; 11:7; 13:7, 15; 16:5-7; 17:6; 18:24; 19:2). J.\tThe falling away from the faith which is called the apostasy (2 Thes. 2:3, 1 Tim. 4:1; Mt. 24:10-12)

IX.\tPOLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS IN THE END-TIMES A.\tIsrael becoming a nation (1948) and governing the city of Jerusalem (1967). B.\tThe formation of the European Union in alliance with a ten-nation confederation (outside of the European Union) with a 3-nation coalition at the core that gets uprooted early on (Dan. 7:8, 20, 24). C.\tThe emergence of a regional political leader (early stages of Antichrist’s career) in the Middle East or Europe that has unusual diplomacy with a 3-nation coalition working closely (Dan. 7:8, 20, 24). D.\tEmergence of a one-world government based in European Union (revived Roman Empire) with a 10 nation confederation support system (Rev. 17:12). E.\tA Middle East peace treaty that brings worldwide counterfeit peace and safety lead by one key man with unusual diplomatic ability (Dan. 9:27; 1 Thes. 5:3).F.\tRe-building of the ancient city of Babylon on the Euphrates as a new worldwide economic and religious center (Isa. 13-14; Jer. 50-51; Rev. 17-18). Babylon refers to the city on the Euphrates River in Iraq (50 miles south of Baghdad) that will be restored and will be one of the Antichrist’s headquarters. Babylon will occupy a major role in four ways: geographically, nationally, spiritually, and prophetically. God’s judgment will destroy this city forever (Jer. 50-51 has not happened yet).G.\tRebuilding the Temple – the Tribulation Temple will be desecrated by the Antichrist yet shall be the context for the ministry of the Two Witnesses (Daniel 9:27; 11:36-45; Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; 2 Thes. 2:4; Rev. 11:1-2). Its outer court will be retained by Gentiles (Arabs). The Millennial Temple is not the tribulation temple that will be built by Jesus (Ezek. 43:1-7; 10:4, 18-19; 11:22-23). H.\tA one world religion that is enforced (Rev. 13, 17-18) – the rise of false prophets who help establish religious alliances between all religions including the occult, New Age, liberal “Christianity” with Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, all with a commitment to moral tolerance that paves the way for a one-world religion. Mystery Babylon will persecute Christians during this time of counterfeit world peace and spiritual persecution (increased birth pangs) (1 Thes. 5:2-3; Mt. 24:9-14, 36-41).I.\tThe increase of travel and knowledge (scientific, communication, technology).Daniel 12:4 "Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and for (travel), and knowledge shall increase." J.\tThe Lord will gather all the armies of all the nations to Jerusalem (Zech. 12:3; 14:2; Joel 3:2; Zeph. 3:8). God wants no nation to be neutral. Therefore, He will gather all nations to make them declare what is in their hearts toward Jesus. Joel calls this the valley of decision (Joel 3:14). The nations of the earth will attack Israel and lay siege to Jerusalem (Zech. 12:1-10; 14:1-2). The Lord will gather all nations to Jerusalem (Zion) which is named prophetically by Joel, the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” (Joel 3:2, 12) or the “Valley of Decision” (Joel 3:14). This is the Valley of Berachah, where Jehoshaphat won a great battle against all odds (2 Chr. 20:26, 16).K.\tThe three prophetic time frames in the End-Times all relate to the final 7-year period of history (Dan. 9:27; comparing Mt. 24 with 1 Thes. 5:2-3) First, the beginning of birth pangs (possibly starting in 1948). Second, the worldwide counterfeit peace and safety (1 Thes. 5:2; Dan. 9:27) which starts at the beginning of the final 7 years and continues 3½ years. Third, the Great Tribulation begins as the heavy birth pangs and lasts for 3½ years. All believers can understand the book of Revelation and End-Time prop

The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in A.D. 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem and Israel.

The Body of Christ, His Church, does not need to have their robes cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb. He has already presented to Himself His Bride, and the Marriage supper of the Lamb has already taken place. I am already crucified with Christ, Gal 2:20, The life I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God, it is no longer I who live but Christ who liveth in me. He does not need to have His robe which is my robe, cleansed by His own blood and His life being born again of incorruptable Seed of the Father which is the living Word of God, who does not need to recleanse me by His own blood and a white robe, which I am partaker of by His resurrected Life and Spirit in me, which we are all partakers of already.

Run from the rapture all you want, but when it comes you won't be able to get away. We are His, bought and paid for in total by the greatest price ever paid, God's only begotten Son, crucified for those that would believe and become the sons' of God by the Blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrected life which we now live.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible;
How much confusion would have been avoided if expositors and Christians in searching for the meaning of this vision, had not lost sight of two great facts: 1. This chapter can have no application to the Church on earth, nor to the Church in glory, for the simple reason that the Church is already complete and translated to glory. 2. The vision states clearly that the sealed company is "of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

The sealed company is of Israel. After the Church is removed to glory, when the fulness of the Gentiles is come in (Ro 11:26) the Lord will turn in mercy to Israel and call, before the judgments fall, a remnant which will also be sealed (See Eze 9). This remnant is frequently seen on the pages of Old Testament prophecy. This sealed company also bears a great testimony. They are the preachers of the gospel of the kingdom, as a witness to all nations before the end comes (Mt 24:14). Therefore, during the time when the judgments are executed from above there will be a world-wide preaching of the gospel of the kingdom, proclaiming the coming of the King, calling to repentance and faith in His Name, and offering mercy still.

Verses 9-17. The application of this passage of Scripture to the redeemed Church in glory is wrong. This Scripture does not apply to the Church in glory, but to saved Gentiles on earth. It is a company which comes "out of the great tribulation." The Church enters the glory before that great tribulation begins. The great multitude represents those Gentiles who will hear the final testimony and believe. They will have turned in repentance to Him and will be washed in His precious blood. Our Lord speaks of them in the great judgment of the nations as sheep, who stand at His right hand and inherit the kingdom (Mt 25:31, etc.). The brethren of our Lord mentioned in Matthew are the remnant of Israel. (For a complete exposition see The Gospel of Matthew, by the author of this volume.) This great company, therefore, does not stand before a heavenly throne, but before the millennial throne on earth. It is a millennial scene after the tribulation is passed. End:

In Christ who needs no white robe, for He is my righteousness, wisdom, sanctification and full redemption.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Christ in me is my glory, not comming out of the tribulation in white robes. We are already in Him, with Him in fulness of His being born again in us. He is my glory and we are His prize, perfect before the Father the Lambs Bride without spot or wrinkle, already seated in the heavenlies in Christ now and will be raptured to fulfill and complete the Fathers House exists which Jesus has prepared for us to be with Him, the Father and the Holy Spirit in us forever.

In Christ: Phillip

hi, i have stated many times here that i should take no thought of tomorrow.here is why: when the beginning of end time study starts in dan. 2 why do we skip dan.3 it has abeast that must be worshipped,it has a way of posible escape, it has a threat of great tribulation, it has the meeting of Jesus in the place of tribulation and it has deliverence through the tribulation without harm. the hebrews were delivered through the fire , dan was delivered through the lions den... although i walk trough the valley of the shadow of death i will fear no evil...the jews were delivered through the waters. there is no example in the old testament of someone being delivered from anything
Jesus was delivered through the cross and the grave and death.laz was delivered through the grave.jimp

Hi Brothertom,

"And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest". And he said to me, ............................

"These are they which came out of Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Poonen says; "They went in; They came out."

The point is, that they surely were not raptured before they went in...it's an impossibility. They went in it, and came out of it.

I strongly reject any teaching as an "absolute" that a "gathering" of the Bride of Christ before the Wrath of God is poured out upon this world is an "impossibility."

In this case, Brother Zac is stating that "out of" is confined to believers who went "in." The suggestion implies that all of those who came out dressed in white were believers who went in at the beginning of that period.

First of all, the Word is clear that there will be many converts during that time. Those who come "out" of the period may simply be those who find Christ in the midst of such great trial.

Next, the argument presented in a matter of rhetorical semantics. The words "came out" can convey several things -- just like the words used in Revelation 3:10 can be selectively interpreted in regard to how believers would be kept FROM the hour of temptation:

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
- Revelation 3:10

I do believe that there are many misperceptions in regard to the views of those who believe (or consider the possibility) of a "gathering" or "catching away" before the wrath of God is poured out.

Those of us who may lean toward such a view aren't saying that believers are immune from tribulation or persecution on this Earth. Obviously, believers have historically been recipients of immense tribulation and persecution. However, the wrath of God is an entirely different matter.

I am convinced that either the Lord will remove His Bride before that time...or that He will supernaturally PROTECT His Bride from God's wrath during that time. This will be vast divine protection, since entire portions of the Earth will be laid waste during that time.

I suppose that the long debates on this topic will probably continue until we are actually experiencing them firsthand. However, I am also convinced that those who have their faith and hope in Christ have nothing to fear -- regardless of how the end comes.

We can be prepared for ANY way the end comes. After all, we aren't even promised that we will be alive by that time. Regarding our eternal preparation, David Wilkerson used to say that we should live our lives in a way that we are ready to depart this life at any time.

In fact, we should long for that ending...because the end result is to be with Him...in a manner that is closer than we experience here on this side of that "glass darkly."