JESUS As "LOVER"??

Has anyone experienced anything like this?JESUS As "LOVER"?? -by Andrew Strom. What does the term "Passion for Jesus" mean to you? Would it surprise you to learn that whole Christian movements are now using it to mean a kind-of "eros" love for Jesus - a 'passion' for Him similar to what an earthly husband and wife have for each other? (-From the word "eros" we get the word 'erotic'). And what does the term "Intimacy with Jesus" mean to you? Would it surprise you to learn that many are now using it to mean sensual "eros"-type encounters with Jesus – with Him as the Bridegroom and them as the 'Bride'? You may think that such unscriptural practices must be out on the "fringe" somewhere. Surely they cannot be part of mainstream Christianity? Well, look around you, because this stuff is now everywhere. I live very close to one of the world's largest and most influential prayer centers here in Kansas City - and it has been a major source of this type of teaching for many years. And now it is all around the world. At this center you will find hundreds of young men and women who will tell you about being "ravished" for Jesus, "kissing" Jesus and 'swooning' in His arms, etc. Their entire understanding of "WHO GOD IS" and their relationship with Him is being shaped by this teaching. -And it is an utter twisting of Scripture. Why is it important to have a right concept of "WHO GOD IS"? Why does it matter so much? Well, this one thing shapes every- thing else about our faith and our relationship with the Lord. At the heart of a lot of cults and deceptions is a fundamental mis-apprehension of the true character and nature of God - ie. "Who He is - How we approach Him". It really does affect EVERYTHING. Now, imagine that there is a new doctrine that re-invents our very understanding of God - a doctrine that sweeps the world and catches up many young people. So, is this new doctrine based on a careful exegesis of the New Testament, you ask? -No! To your surprise you find that it is largely based on "spiritualizing" the SONG OF SOLOMON. Yes, that's right. An entire re-inventing of our relationship with God based not on the New Testament, but on Solomon's lovestruck poetry about the body and breasts and comeliness of one of his 700 wives. -Wonderful poetry to be sure, but what kind of basis is that for such a drastic change in our basic beliefs? (So is there no benefit to be gained from an 'allegorical' understanding of the Song Of Solomon? -Certainly there is! Hudson Taylor and others used it this way. But that is not the point I am making. The real issue is this:- Should we re-invent our entire understanding of "Who God is" and how we approach Him - to fit in with a tiny book of semi-erotic poetry from the Old Testament? Should this become our dominant understanding of God?) As history shows us again and again, to the equal degree that we lose our grasp of the real character and nature of God - to this same degree we will lose genuine Christianity. You cannot have the true New Testament Faith if you have lost the true New Testament Jesus. -Which is why it is so serious when people say that in the West today we have invented a kind-of "American Jesus" to suit our self-centered, "me"-focused lifestyle. They point out that today you mostly hear of a Jesus who exists to make you "happy" rather than holy, a Jesus who is always a "friend" but never a Judge, a Jesus who does not any longer hate sin or demand repentance, but only wants you prosperous and 'blessed'. This is a Jesus that utterly suits our selfish Western mindset, but is found nowhere in the Bible. And the new "Jesus As Lover" doctrine is just another twist in the ongoing tale of modern Christians distorting the character and nature of God. Does Jesus love us? Of course He does - more than words can tell. And are we to love Him? Of course! -With all our heart, mind, soul and strength! But does this mean that we are to approach Him with a sensual "eros" love, like some sexual adolescent schoolgirl, "swooning" and smooching with our 'lover' Jesus? Is that what God's love means? Are we to exchange 'agape' for sensual "eros" and act like Jesus's "girlfriend" here on earth? (-Men as well as women?) God forbid! Of course we know that in Scripture the corporate body of Christ (particularly at the end of the age) is described as the "Bride" of Christ. But isn't it obvious that this is talking about the 'CORPORATE' Body - not individual Christians? Are we each to become Jesus’ little "girlfriends" here on earth - or is it the "WHOLE BODY" that is to one day be the Bride of Christ? -Clearly it is the latter. The effect of this doctrine on young men is particularly distressing. To describe it as "effeminate" is quite an understatement. As it is, the modern church is already known for being an "anti-masculine" zone, with its flower displays, pink walls, mauve carpets, emotion- laden music, etc. A lot of commentators point to this when discussing the low attendance of men in our churches. But this new doctrine takes this theme to undreamt-of depths. Can you imagine zealous praying young men who relate to Jesus (ie. another MALE) as a "lover" whom they kiss and 'swoon' over? Can you imagine what happens when this becomes their basic approach to God? -And this is just the beginning of the gender- bending weirdness that is starting to become "normal" in this movement. (Some are in such deception that they even have experiences of "Jesus" kissing them on the mouth, etc. The movement itself warns against "sensual encounters" but their very teaching leads directly to this kind of thing. Deceiving spirits are always super-active in this kind of environment. Where do you think the famed 'incubus' and 'succubus' originate from?) The ironic thing is that a lot of the people who are into this doctrine claim to be "seeking Revival". They really think that this is the kind of 'intimacy' that God desires. It is greatly influencing the modern 'Prayer' movement, the Prophetic movement and the 'Worship' movement (-which explains the recent rash of songs with "Song of Solomon" type themes: "I kiss you with the kisses of my mouth", "Take me into your chamber", etc). I find their talk of "Revival" particularly ironic, because I have studied Revival for many years, and I am aware that all the old Revivalists prayed to a God who is very different from what is being presented here. -And their understanding of "WHO GOD IS" was utterly crucial to their obtaining Revival. They prayed to a God of holiness and majesty and awe - a God of glory who hates sin, yet sent His son to die for sinners. The God that the old Revivalists prayed to was the "throneroom" God that Isaiah described- "I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple... And one cried to another and said, Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts: The whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips..." (Is 6:1-5). This is the "throneroom" God who is described again in Revelation chapter 4 - where we are told that the four beasts cry, "Holy, holy, holy" day and night without ceasing, and the 24 elders cast down their crowns before His throne - over and over again. It is "HOLINESS" that is the chief characteristic of God! No other characteristic is ever repeated three times together in the Bible - let alone over and over, day and night! -"HOLY, HOLY, HOLY." And actually, the full title of the book of Revelation is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ". So in other words, it is a 'revealing' of who Jesus is and what He is really like. And when John (the 'beloved' disciple) first sees the glorified Christ in Revelation 1, we are told that such is His terror-inducing holiness and glory that John fell at his feet "as though dead." -This is the true Jesus - as He really is. In every true Revival, it is the God of majesty who reveals himself. For Revival is the "Glory of God" coming down. It is His very 'throneroom' presence coming down amongst men. The God of Revival has always been a God of holiness - a God of great glory. This is who we have for a 'Father'. Thus, even His children should approach Him with awe. And if we do not pray to this God, then we should not expect Revival at all. -That is one of the basic lessons of Revival history. -We must pray to the 'RIGHT GOD' if we are going to see true Revival. Incidentally, the 'Bride of Christ' in Revelation is described as a 'holy city' - a "new Jerusalem" coming down from heaven. (Rev 21). So it is clearly a 'CORPORATE' entity that exists at the end of the age. -Not some individualized "girlfriend of Jesus" in the here-and-now. It is a very serious thing to tamper with our understanding of 'WHO GOD IS' and how we relate to Him. In a lot of ways it is like preaching "another Jesus". -It really is that bad. If you hear phrases today like 'Lovesick for Jesus', 'Bridal Paradigm', "Bridal intimacy", "Wooing", 'Romancing', "Kisses of our mouth", 'Fascinated', etc, then you can be pretty sure that you are being exposed to this deceptive doctrine. I believe it is serious error, and I urge you to flee from it as far as you can, my friends. Please forward this to anyone whom you believe may be influenced by this doctrine. Feedback welcome! Our email- prophetic@revivalschool.com God bless you all. Andrew Strom.

so who or what,and where is there website? on this info on this doctrine?

Andrew Strom's (the author of the article) website is - www.revivalschool.comThe website to the IHOP (International House Of Prayer) and Mike Bickle who have(according to Andrew) start this "cotton candy" "lover" Jesus and are spreading this nonsense across the country is - http://www.fotb.com/Patrick

This is ridiculous. Andrew Strom is a person that used to be involved in the movement (if that is what you care to classify it as) he is now bent on proving it wrong. He has totally misused the verbage and the context to which he so crudely put the term "jesus's little girlfriends" to. I feel like this is a bully statement typical of someone in elementary school and one who needs a courageous young lad to punch him in the nose for.We must above all be very careful as to what the "Bride of Christ" means to God. If there is such ignorance to this subject; those addressing it should tread very lightly. Think about it... the Bride of Christ is THE GIFT that the Father God will give to His Son Jesus at the end of this age...complete with a great wedding ceremony. To belittle this into simply a corporate affair with no personal meaning is foolish at best and very scary when considering who we are trifling with...which of course is God and His gift. To turn this bridal concept into a "heavenly sex fest" as implied by Andrew Strom is even worse...but IS NOT THE CASE AT THE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED KANSAS CITY IHOP. Granted it is no easy concept to grasp...especially for a guy...especially with all the sexual peversion so prevelant in our society and all society's of the world today. But just because we do not understand fully...don't close the door on a view that may sound different than what you are used to. The one you are used to, though comforatble; may be DEAD WRONG. I challenge any and all who read this thread/post to go to the ihop.org website which is the site to the International House of Prayer in Kansas City and do their own research as to the Godliness or lack there of of this organization.Specifically go to the site and on friday, saturday (7 pm CST) and sunday(10 am CST) go to the media tab...then to watch tab and follow the leads to the live webcast which are free and you will hear Mike Bickle speak to what God has put on his heart over the past 30 years. Also many downloadable notes/messages from the past available as well. This man is full of integrity and LIVES the life that is base on the beattitudes or sermon on the mount. Great strides are being made currently in spreading this concept to many tried and true organizations who are seeing the benefit in and embracing a "crying out to the Lord...night and day". This place is different...this place is after Gods heart for this day and age. Is this place perfect? By no means...does it need more brotherly love in the true sense...absolutely. But as is quoted by Ravenhil and used as a signature by so many on this forum...(and i of course cannot find the exact quote at this time) but it goes like this..."give me one man who will teach the body to pray and then we will have revival" (someone know the exact quote?Any way this is what the ministry is based on night and day prayer....and has been doing so for over five years...24 hours a day 7 days a week...growing from a small number to now having thousands involved to one extent or another.The other big thing this ministry is based on is end time judgment of the Body(purification) and the world. Trust me this is presented in truth and is not lace with any "eros" or erotic peversions as it is being accused of by Andrews disortation. It is hard, cold and bloody but Just coming from the Judge of All, even as it is presented by the scripture.I have spent time looking into this andrew strom and find him to be lacking in love but very big on slaughter of people in the body. I believe he is venting his own percieved or even actual "hurt" he has encountered through his personal walk in his messages to the Body. He is dangerous in my opinion.So there it is the big decision once again...who is right. I challenge any to not go by someone elses hearsay but by experience/knowledge and above all TRUE DISCERNMENT (which is always a trick if any are honest) from God as to judging others in the Body which I am very much for if done with the agenda of God in mind and not a personal agenda. I also have been involved and participated in (still do) the Forerunner School of Ministry at the IHOP in KC. I have spent the past 40 years looking for what is real and true in the Body. Mike Bickle's revelation on the Love of God and the end times has convinced me that this is a great place to be...again perfect?----NO!This is what we as chrisitians are so good at...being overly critical of that which we have only very limited knowledge of.I quote this in response:"IT IS NOT THE CRITIC WHO COUNTS; NOT THE MAN WHO POINTS OUT HOW THE STRONG MAN STUMBLES, OR WHERE THE DOER OF DEEDS COULD HAVE DONE THEM BETTER. THE CREDIT BELONGS TO THE MAN IN THE ARENA, WHOSE FACE IS MARRED BY DUST AND SWEAT AND BLOOD; WHO STRIVES VALIANTLY...WHO KNOWS THE GREAT ENTHUSIASMS, THE GREAT DEVOTIONS; WHO SPENDS HIMSELF IN A WORTHY CAUSE; WHO AT THE BEST KNOWS IN THE END THE TRIUMPH OF HIGH ACHIEVEMENT, AND WHO AT THE WORST, IF HE FAILS, AT LEAST FAILS WHILE DARING GREATLY, SO THAT HIS PLACE SHALL NEVER BE WITH THOSE COLD AND TIMID SOULS WHO HAVE NEVER KNOWN NEITHER VICTORY NOR DEFEAT. Teddy Roosevelt---From the cover page of Wild at Heart by John Eldridge (great book by the way:))When Andrew Strom gets the Body praying to our Father, pleading for His mercy, grace and justice to be over us and the nations of the world; to the tune of thousands of prayers going up ALL THE TIME. Then maybe he can critique someone like a Mike Bickle who through obedience to Gods call on his life has done so.I was originally planning to send more posts later on this...but no arguing/discussing matters until you research the Godliness of each ministry yourself. So this is the last of my posts on this thread. (i hope)Blessings,TSp.s.The Asbury revival which is big news to many on this forum is tied to this IHOP...not to Andrew Strom. The Director of the Forerunner School of Ministry, Allen Hood has his Doctorate from Asbury. His Bio is very interesting having come from a "dead" Methodist Seminary prior to being led by God to Asbury. Aslo Mike Bickle is extremely interesting...as he preached against the flowing of current day Holy Ghost gifts prior to his life changing experience. This said to peak your interest in getting to know those you may be shooting down.

Whoops!---I forgot...Annie i really like your take on doing the research thorugh tried and trusted Saints of the past like those you listed. Thanks for the balance. Check out Count Zinnzendorfs prayer house of Germany, and Cumgall of Bangor Ireland...the Celtic prayer movement...look at the results! TS

Interesting article. I think it does a fair job of balancing an awe and reverence for the Lord with an understanding of our close union with with Him individually and corporately.I have had experience with some ministry that included what they call a "bridegroom fast" where they mourn in "lovesickness" for the purpose of "experiencing" more of divine Love. Seems to be really over-emphasizing emotional experiences. I have done some Bible study on fasting, especially in Isaiah 58, and find different purposes for fasting than this "experience" they seek. Again, as in all things we need balance.This article scares young folks away from that relationship we "do" in fact have with our God and Christ.Dear Sister, how did you come to this conclusion? How many young folks that you know have been scared away? In Christ,Ron

I saw this on Andrew's site and have been thinking this morning on what he said and I'll limit my comments to my own heart and what I believe the Holy Spirit has shown me.The word "eros" as far as I could tell is not located in the New Testament Greek. What I fear more and it's happened at times in my life where I fixated on sentiment (i.e. an emotional response) of some sort. I viewed the love of Jesus through a prism of sentiment.The fruit of this type of belief in my own heart was that I may have had many tears but my heart didn't seem to change. There was an old secular song some years back entitled "Hooked on a Feeling" and I was hooked on a sentimental view of God.That's how I view this article. The love of God is completed in us as we mature in Him and submit ourselves to Him. It's reflected in how I treat my brother and my sister and whether or not I keep his word. It's shown in whether I actually lay down my life for others. The agape love is a consuming self-sacrificing love that we want to pour out simply because we love Jesus and want to be obedient to Him. There's no sentiment attached to this type of love, although obviously we will have emotional responses at times to things.Here's the word love in 1 John from the Authorized Version and it's stirring to me that it was very practical and not emotional.1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. 1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren. 1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. 1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. 1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.May we all be consumed by the love of Jesus to forsake the world and all of our ways and simply follow Him.

May we all be consumed by the love of Jesus to forsake the world and all of our ways and simply follow Him. Well said - and as usual Habakkuk3, I believe you have brought much insight and balance to this issues. Very good post brother!Patrick

hi ron,your quote;"I have had experience with some ministry that included what they call a "bridegroom fast" where they mourn in "lovesickness" for the purpose of "experiencing" more of divine Love. Seems to be really over-emphasizing emotional experiences."Fasting in this sense is to give up fleshly pleasure's even necessity's for a time...such as eating. When we "conquer" our flesh in this way our spirit man is strengthened and able to not really get closer to God (we are positionally by legal rights of the Blood) but able to remove the distractions imposed on us humans by the very needs of keeping this flesh alive. I have started a thread on a more precise presentation of what fasting is (as taught me at IHOPS Forerunner School of Ministry...but written in some personal experience and thoughts)The name of the thread is "Fasting to be Full"...it seems that some have looked but none have left there thoughts on fasting...not sure if it is the fault of a poorly written thread or lack of interest in the body towards fasting or intimidation based on a lack of working knowledge of fasting itself. (this is a poorly disguised plea for someone to start a discourse on fasting from my thread:))you also said this in your response:Quote:"This article scares young folks away from that relationship we "do" in fact have with our God and Christ.Dear Sister, how did you come to this conclusion? How many young folks that you know have been scared away?"I can speak from my heart and maybe touch upon what this sister meant. When I was young the only relationship I could think of with God was that of a mean, judging super being in heaven waiting with a hammer to knock me on the head every time i did something wrong or sinned. Needless to say I grew up with an extreme sense of the law being highlighted...(a legalistic Baptist background...which could fill pages)Mike Bickle's revelation of the Love of God as shown specifically through the life of David is but another step on the path God has cleared for me to get a better understanding of His love. It by no means and in NO way undermines the fact the He is Most Holy, Most to be Feared and most to be Awestruck by. It does in fact just help get rid of all the MAN MADE crap (sorry for lack of a better word) that has been placed as a filter between Gods Love for me and the way I am able to process it or grow in (as in become a more mature christian).....So you hopefully can now see why Andrew Stroms words could lead a young immature christian or non-christian to even be interested, to a place of fear and wanting to run from the kind of God that is percevable as you read in-between the lines of his "message" or "warning" to the Body.Blessings,TSp.s. I said I would stay off this thread...it is hard as it is near to my heart.

Dear Habakkuk--as to your comment-"The fruit of this type of belief in my own heart was that I may have had many tears but my heart didn't seem to change. There was an old secular song some years back entitled "Hooked on a Feeling" and I was hooked on a sentimental view of God."I fully agree that this is indeed an extreme danger that can/does happen to those that take the message of "Love" to the wrong conclusion. This does not mean "throw the baby out with the bath water". It does mean that if a leaders led to promote the benefits of being a "lover" of Christ..he must preach against the dangers of abuse within this structure. I am aware of the abuses that can and have happened when you start using the word to promote "fleshly" responses...right up to sexual abuse of women, children etc, all in the "name of the Lord".However the fact remains that "it is His kindness that leads us to repentance". Kindness is of course an expression of Love...when love received prompts one to give love (read obedience to what God desires) then the message is sound and Biblical. The reason King David is such an enigma to us is that he was such a failure and such a success all at the same time. A murderer, a lustful sinner, a fearful man...yet at the same time one called by God Himself "a man after my own heart". This is because of the Love David received from God and the consequential repentance David had usually immediately upon realization of the offense he committed against the one he also Loved.The alternative to not focusing on this great and mysterios Love which God gives to us (undeservedly) and deserved love he should have given back to him in the best capacity humans can give (whatever that is)...is dead legalism...driven by fear and subservience not love and kinship. Remember He is the Kinsmen Redeemer.Also the tears you had many of while involved with this "Love Movement" is interesting to one such as I. My tears seemed to have dried up over twenty years ago...mostly having to do with growing up under legalism and having my heart cauterized to emotion...in the 2 years involved with the International House of Prayer, my tears are still bound up...but I sense a movement of my heart towards a true love that God has for Humans in general and me in particular (being me) not special as in He loves me more. This is unthawing my heart...not towards emetionalism but towards a heart that is able to respond in Love back to Him and out to my Brothers. Again....nothing to do with "being Jesus's little girlfreind".....a statement that really gets me riled. (still working on peace.)Blessings,TS

When he says eros.. is he saying it in a mystical sense or in a more solid way?

Hello TS,Clearly when you saw God as mean and waiting to come down on you all the time, you had a distorted and unbalanced view of the nature and character of God. Andrew's article addresses an equally unbalanced view that swings the other way. I see Andrew's article as clearly exhorting the body about the need for a balanced view of the nature and character of God as revealed in Scripture. Why should seeking a full and clear revelation of God's character causes people to run away from Him?In Christ,Ron

I also believe that balance is essential - if we paint a picture of God as a mean old task master constantly waving a stick of wrath and condemnation it is just as bad as painting Him as a mushy, old Santa Clause grampa who is all love no wrath or holiness. Both views of God are un-Scriptural and equally as dangerous - and should be torn down and corrected when ever we see them.MeAgain brought up the point about John. John knew Agape-Love. He rested his head on Jesus' chest and was called the disciple who Jesus loved and was given the Revelation. And John also knew balance - when John was given the Revelation and he saw Jesus in the pure holiness of His resurrected state - did he run up and give Jesus a big hug? or dance before Him? no he fell on face as if dead!!!! Is this balance we are looking for? When you see Jesus what do you picture? A big hug? A dance? Or flat on your face trembling in fear and awe before the righteousness and holiness of the King of Kings the Son of the Almighty God? Patrick

Hi All,After reading through the article and some of the comments I wish to help bring some clairity to this by sharing from the many personal conversations Andrew and I have had on this topic. As he stated, he lives close to IHOP which is in the Grandview are suburb of KC. Many people attend there and that by the hundreds if not thousands. I admire their work as they pray 24/7 365. The 'concern' (as I have seen also and share with him to a certain extent) is that many (not just IHOP but in many circles) are entering into a relationship with God that seems almost eroto-mystical (I made that word up). They are approaching God with the same type of affection as one would have towards a girlfriend or boyfriend. I have 4 teen aged children and I often (carefully as not to discourage them) point this out in the newer worship and 'Christian' music. Consider these lyrics:DEEPLY IN LOVEIn my life You`ve heard me sayI love youHow do I show you it`s truehear my heart, it longs for more of you..I`ve fallen deeply in love with you..You have stolen my heartI`m captivated by youNever will you and I partI`ve fallen deeply in love with youYou and I, together foreverNothing can, stand in the wayMy love for you, grows strongereach new day.I`ve fallen deeply in love with you I have to say, that this is boyfriend/girlfriend music in the 80's when I was a teenager. I could cite many such songs. Our church sings this as a worship song btw. Contrast that with:ROCK OF AGES1. Rock of Ages, cleft for me, let me hide myself in thee; let the water and the blood, from thy wounded side which flowed, be of sin the double cure; save from wrath and make me pure. 2. Not the labors of my hands can fulfill thy law's commands; could my zeal no respite know, could my tears forever flow, all for sin could not atone; thou must save, and thou alone. 3. Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross I cling; naked, come to thee for dress; helpless, look to thee for grace; foul, I to the fountain fly; wash me, Savior, or I die. 4. While I draw this fleeting breath, when mine eyes shall close in death, when I soar to worlds unknown, see thee on thy judgment throne, Rock of Ages, cleft for me, let me hide myself in thee. I understand everyones concerns not to discourage our youth or get out of balance. Is it not alarming that we have gone from Rock of Ages to Deeply in Love? God Bless,-Robert

Thanks for the clarification Robert,There's a great danger of creating a God in our own image. In our church, we call it the "cotton candy Jesus" that requires no repentance, no separation from the world, no holiness, etc.As one who was quite legalistic in my earlier years, there's a clear distinction in the Spirit between obedience and legalism. God is not a taskmaster but He does require separation from the world and obedience. There is great joy in submitting to God, even in the midst of great trials. I'm finding that the lack of joy I sometimes experience is an indicia that I'm unwilling to let go of something (e.g. perhaps an attitude, an old habit, whatever He has laid His finger on).I think we all need great discernment in these days to test the spirits and allow the Holy Spirit to continually search our own hearts.Is it not alarming that we have gone from Rock of Ages to Deeply in Love? Yes, it's very disturbing to me.

Hi Habakkuk3,It is such a contrast for me as I attend by-weekly meetings in nursing homes where only the old timey hymns are sang. not the old 10 verse Wesleyian hymns, but older ones pre 1960 at that. The message of the songs is so much deeper and richer than what I experience in other more contemporary circles in most cases. I have lots of newer worship and Christian songs I do like, but there is still a sharp contrast and we have lost something in my estimation and I think it has to do often with the peoples' perspective of God.

Annie:Quote-"but until we've had a true encounter with Love Who became Incarnate ... we legalize His Love back to laws rather than a Father who made those laws because He Loves us."This is exactly right---we need to protect the Body from legalism---it is so much easier to hold someone accountable to breaking a law than it is to love someone who is not lovable---of which the total human race is of such.This is a turning into a HOT TOPIC:)---oh well, I tried to say just one or two things but am being overcome with a need to respond.side note---those commenting should definitely read the WHOLE thread in order to know where/why/what of this thread.Quote---Robert"Consider these lyrics:DEEPLY IN LOVEIn my life You`ve heard me sayI love youHow do I show you it`s truehear my heart, it longs for more of you..I`ve fallen deeply in love with you..You have stolen my heartI`m captivated by youNever will you and I partI`ve fallen deeply in love with youYou and I, together foreverNothing can, stand in the wayMy love for you, grows strongereach new day.I`ve fallen deeply in love with youI have to say, that this is boyfriend/girlfriend music in the 80's when I was a teenager. I could cite many such songs. Our church sings this as a worship song btw. Contrast that with:ROCK OF AGES1. Rock of Ages, cleft for me, let me hide myself in thee; let the water and the blood, from thy wounded side which flowed, be of sin the double cure; save from wrath and make me pure. 2. Not the labors of my hands can fulfill thy law's commands; could my zeal no respite know, could my tears forever flow, all for sin could not atone; thou must save, and thou alone. 3. Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross I cling; naked, come to thee for dress; helpless, look to thee for grace; foul, I to the fountain fly; wash me, Savior, or I die. 4. While I draw this fleeting breath, when mine eyes shall close in death, when I soar to worlds unknown, see thee on thy judgment throne, Rock of Ages, cleft for me, let me hide myself in thee. I understand everyones concerns not to discourage our youth or get out of balance. Is it not alarming that we have gone from Rock of Ages to Deeply in Love?"END QUOTEI cannot but say ---GET YOUR MIND OUT OF THE GUTTER!Why is it not right to sing of the love our heart has/wants for God? Why must a man twist this into some sexual fleshly desire?Is the Rock of Ages better becasue it is older?Is it better because the words agree with you and does not make you "flashback" into the girlfreind/boyfriend days of your youth?I will say that when I was young the "rock of ages" was used in my dead church that preached the "love" of God yet walked in the hatred of man. LEGALISM. Yet I would not still take away the value of this song...from a dead brother who was doing what the new song is doing; Communing to God thoughts of our inadequacies to make it in the world without Him.I will say it again....stronger....come sit for a couple hours a day in the Prayer room of this Kansas City phenomena. Listen to groups of kids who have so many choices in life as they give up their time to pray for you and me and the world 24/7. Hear them sing to the Father and speak from their heart. It may not sound like the old organ music and the 200 year old songs song at your church; my thoughts are why should it?We humans put God in a box....sometimes there are people that come along in history and open this box up to realize He is not in their after all. Such was Martin Luther, Wesley and the Moravians and countless others. Reread the line of thoughts on this thread from the beginning and say something that lifts God up instead of letting some "OLD" hymn do it for you.If the Lord tarries should we be singing the Rock of Ages in 1000 years as the acceptable song of praise to the Lord? If you give it enough time Deeply in Love will also be a classic...unless legalism wins and it just dies out...a song of one lone child...seeking to Love her Master more.Sorry for the heat...but lets be real at the least. TS

Hi TS,I cannot but say ---GET YOUR MIND OUT OF THE GUTTER!Why is it not right to sing of the love our heart has/wants for God? Why must a man twist this into some sexual fleshly desire?I see you did exactly to me what you did to Andrew's post. Hmmm. Don't believe I'll respond.

TS wrote: This is ridiculous. Andrew Strom is a person that used to be involved in the movement (if that is what you care to classify it as) he is now bent on proving it wrong. He has totally misused the verbage and the context to which he so crudely put the term "jesus's little girlfriends" to. I feel like this is a bully statement typical of someone in elementary school and one who needs a courageous young lad to punch him in the nose for.This is one of the most immoderate things I have ever heard from a Christian in these forums. To suggest that someone out to "punch Andrew in the nose" beloved is not the love of Christ or a reaction of the Spirit of God- end of discussion. It is hard for me to grasp how a person could proclaim agapE love and react like this. It only lends weight to the shallowness of the whole concept of God. If the Holy Spirit in his fulness is flowing the fruit of the Spirit also will be present. If we disagree that is one thing. I know the concern is genuine as I know Andrew personally. He is not a 'bully', he is a repentance preacher who longs to see revival come to America in deep repentance before its too late. I have disagreed with Andrew myself, but I believe this statement needs to be challenged.

Ron--I guess I'd be at a loss for words as well. If I wrote anything that was not implied by the WORDS of your message please clarify.Dorcas: maybe this will help claify what I mean by quoting Andrew's "Jesus's little girlfriend".You put this quote on your response: "TS, please take a deep breath. Here is the paragraph which you are misquoting slightly - enough to make a difference, I think, to what is being said by the writer.Quote:Incidentally, the 'Bride of Christ' in Revelation is described as a 'holy city' - a "new Jerusalem" coming down from heaven. (Rev 21). So it is clearly a 'CORPORATE' entity that exists at the end of the age. -Not some individualized "girlfriend of Jesus" in the here-and-now. "END QuoteMy response to this is that this is not the complete reference to the "Jesus's little girlfreind" phrase.This is it in context and more complete:Quote from Andrews Message:"But does this mean that we are to approach Him with a sensual "eros" love, like some sexual adolescent schoolgirl, "swooning" and smooching with our 'lover' Jesus? Is that what God's love means? Are we to exchange 'agape' for sensual "eros" and act like Jesus's "girlfriend" here on earth? (-Men as well as women?) God forbid! Of course we know that in Scripture the corporate body of Christ (particularly at the end of the age) is described as the "Bride" of Christ. But isn't it obvious that this is talking about the 'CORPORATE' Body - not individual Christians? Are we each to become Jesus’ little "girlfriends" here on earth - or is it the "WHOLE BODY" that is to one day be the Bride of Christ? -Clearly it is the latter."How sick this is. How does one swoon and smooch with the Creator? To imply that that is what is taught at the International House of Prayer is absurd and a loathsome lie. To say that the actions of this ministry is to act like a "sexual adolescent schoolgirl" is off the wall? I bring these comments to bear because of the fact that I see what goes on and it is not this.If the references did not imply directly or by association that this Kansas City IHOP was in league with those ministries (IF THERE ARE ANY) that do this is outragous.Search the organization out for yourself...if one judges another not by what that person or organization is saying/doing but by hearsay then discernment is not being used and the words are but of the devil to sow strife.I have plenty to talk about of issues that are publicly made by organizations not inventions of someones warped mind based on I do not know what. Should I take kindly to be "dumped" into a group that based on Andrews message goes around in some sort of heightened sexual state...waiting to climax in worship? AS IS IMPLIED BY HIS OWN WORDS...FOLLOW THE THINKING. It is sick and very much not appropriate to be said or done or even thought of for that matter.I wish I had not stumbled onto this thread. Another Quote from Message:"They point out that today you mostly hear of a Jesus who exists to make you "happy" rather than holy, a Jesus who is always a "friend" but never a Judge, a Jesus who does not any longer hate sin or demand repentance, but only wants you prosperous and 'blessed'. This is a Jesus that utterly suits our selfish Western mindset, but is found nowhere in the Bible. And the new "Jesus As Lover" doctrine is just another twist in the ongoing tale of modern Christians distorting the character and nature of God."end quote The Doctrine of "Jesus As Lover" is not new twisted or modern. It came into view the moment he took the lower form of a human, culminated in the Cross and Resurection and will be shown in its full Glory at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb.It is not about quick riches, name it claim it, or any such fallacies Andrew claims to associate it with.Blessings,TS

TS,In fairness I think it fair to say that he is not taking a direct swipe at IHOP. He is taking on the Song of Solomon philosophy. I have been to IHOP to pray myself as has Greg and others on this site. I conclude that the prayer is a Godsend and we need more of it. I sensed a wonderful presence of God at my times there. No slam on them from me. But I remain concerned with the emphasis on a relationship with God that is akin to human beings courting one another. Not because it goes on at IHOP, but because it is filtering down to my kids and youth group. Moreover, I do not sense the same level of 'sexual' undertones that maybe the article seems to suggest; but I have not been in some of the prophetic meetings Andrew has. He has a tremendous reach and experience in ministry. I know he is very grieved by some of what he has seen. It may have no connection at all to your experience. God Bless,-RObert

That is ridiculous, have you ever been to the IHOP? If the answer is no then you have no right or reason to bash them. This "movement" shouldn't be that at all, it's something the entire body of Christ should actively be a part of. Songs of Songs is not "Soloman's lovesick poetry" about a woman, it is directed towards Jesus. Jesus is the lover looking for his "beloved," ( the church), take for instance the verse in it that says " I am dark yet lovely." This verse is coming from the beloved, it is saying that even though she (us) sins and does things she regrets, her lover ( Christ) still loves her unconditionally. This paradigm is written all throughout the Bible, in Isaiah 63 it tells us of Jesus coming to claim vengence on the ones who spoiled his bride and turned their backs to him, which is another aspect of this paradigm. This love is something that cannot be explained easily in words alone. We are brides of Christ, men and women, who are going to spend the rest of eternity with him. So whatever this Andrew guy is meaning to do by saying all this nonsense, I'd like to know what part of it is building anyone up or benefiting the body of Christ.

Andrew Strom is bullying other Christians who don't believe what he believes, but actually once did himself, making him somewhat of a hypocrite. Did any of that essay build up or benefit the body of Christ in any way? I think not, it merely puts down and demeans a certain "movement" in the church. Also, if he his opinion about Song of Soloman is correct, why is it in the Bible? In Matthew and many, many other places in the Word Jesus tells us that lusting is bad and that we should honor our wives and not commit adultery etc etc. Song of Songs looked at from a sensual and purely secular viewpoint devoid of any knowledge of the bridegroom paradigm would seem like a story of lust in every way. God would not put that in the Bible, so that erradicates Stroms premise right there, the Bible cannot and will not ever contradict itself.

I am grieved by some of the replies in this thread.. Note: I said 'some' (meaning: if the shoe fits, dont be afraid to wear it..)Do we really have to resort to calling names, using strong words like 'bullying', 'hypocrites', and most of all, is this topic REALLY about who is right and who is not..I wish I'd see a balanced view somewhere in here.. but no, it's turned mostly into taking sides and slinging mud..That grieves me..Some of yall oughta know better!However, I must say that I really enjoy Annie's posts lately. May God give you his abundant blessing! Now, let's repent of our attitudes and have some edification in this here thread..

Strom needs to be put in his place, he is bullying other Christians who don't believe what he believes, but actually once did himself, making him somewhat of a hypocriteThis is incorrect. I do not believe Andrew was ever part of what he wrote about. It was this and other things as to why he 'left' the prophetic movement. Did any of that essay build up or benefit the body of Christ in any way?That depends on whether or not it helps bring clarification on this doctrine. We need to ask if the doctrine is biblical or not. Also, if he his opinion about Song of Soloman is correct, why is it in the Bible? In Matthew and many, many other places in the Word Jesus tells us that lusting is bad and that we should honor our wives and not commit adultery etc etc. Song of Songs looked at from a sensual and purely secular viewpoint devoid of any knowledge of the bridegroom paradigm would seem like a story of lust in every way. God would not put that in the Bible, so that erradicates Stroms little theory right there, the Bible cannot and will not ever contradict itself.Are you suggesting that if a man and woman in the confines of marriage were to behave as we read in Song of Solomon that it would be sinful behavior?

Just want to apologize to Annie for my question about her comment concerning young people being adversely affected by this article, it was an unecessary question on my part.In Christ,Ron

I do not wish to enter into the discussion about A. Strom, but merely insert related thoughts.Let’s face it: the vast majority of those who sit on our churches have never truly encountered Christ or his love. They have no relationship with him. And so the soil in our churches is fertile for all kinds of aberrations of love to develop – largely through the infiltration of the culture. Our culture equates love with sex, and so it shouldn’t be surprising that there is a distorted enmeshment of God and sex. Consider these thoughts: "They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man.." Rom. 1:22,25 In other words, when people don't really want God, they reshape him into image that is actually a reflection of themselves and their own thinking. And they worship that image - really an idol. John Bevere, in his book, A Heart Ablaze, wrote,"Idolatry is a very convenient form of worship. An idol gives its creators what they want - the dictates of their own hearts, since they are the ones who create it. Yet it satisfies the inborn need to worship a higher being. If the creators of the idol are passionate for sexual pleasures, then their idol will dictate to them ordinances that will gratify those desires.The Lord makes this very clear when he says through Isaiah, "Who would form a god or mold an image that profits him nothing?" Is. 44:10 “…If [the sinner] did not want to give up his rebellious ways to conform to the ways of the Lord, then a way to satisfy both his conscience and his appetites was to create an image representing Yahweh that would give him what he desired. It was done so subtly, without his being consciously aware of it." *This is exactly what the Israelites were doing when they made the golden calf. Of course, they thought that they were worshipping God. That satisfied their conscience without having to face their sinful hearts. In their minds, that re-created God was delighted with their religious observances (the burnt offerings) as well as their socials which included lots of food and fun (the Bible called it revelry).Today we see the “golden calf” of sexual gratification in our culture - and also in the churches. The Corinthian church struggled with it. People were bringing their pagan values into the church. It shouldn’t be surprising that they were not bothered by immorality in their midst. They were even delighted – after all, in their very recent past, prostitution and immorality was a form of worship in their pagan temple. I deeply empathize with Robert’s concern. Though we can’t judge heart motives of songwriters and the song leaders, we have to admit that there is a reason for deep concern. We are a culture that idolizes our youth. Our churches want them to have a kind of worship that “meets their needs”. And we have permitted “whatever it takes” to keep them in the church. A few years ago I was on a worship forum. Believe me, I was concerned. The level of spiritual and emotional maturity was disturbing. They did not know scriptures, and they had a lot of relational problems – quite immature (generally speaking). I asked myself, Are these the future leaders of our churches? As long as the religious "worship" experience remains the center of our church life, we will continue enabling sensual gratification, along with the musical expression of it. And the pit is deep. We will slide deeper and deeper down. I don’t even want to imagine what that could look like. The solutions do not come from changing our music or our worship style. They come from a radical change of heart. And if that process happens best outside of the church entirely, then so be it. God will do whatever it takes, for he will not abandon us forever. Diane

Hi Diane,I wish to key in on your quote from John bevere,“…If [the sinner] did not want to give up his rebellious ways to conform to the ways of the Lord, then a way to satisfy both his conscience and his appetites was to create an image representing Yahweh that would give him what he desired. It was done so subtly, without his being consciously aware of it." *I went back last night and this AM and went through Song of Solomon again (an overview) to try to make sure my heart is right in this and that I am not overreacting. Yet, it seems that slowly God is being brought down onto a 'human' level. Annie made a tremendous post as did others reminding us of how ultimately love must be the motivation and it will do much more than fear as fuel for our zeal (my summary). I have a saying that when the 'love' runs out the 'fear' has to kick in. The love we had at first or our first love (as it were) relationship with God is a time of tremendous growth. So I appreciate the need for a love fueled relationship with Christ.My concern also as you have pointed out is that society is getting confused on what 'love' really is. To piggy back off that concept, it seems to me that folk are trying to apply a 'romantic' type love towards the Lord. Again, I know the various pictures of the Bride and Bridegroom in scripture; but I think to attempt to exercise that type of relationship (romance) on earth can only spell real trouble. Could we not all agree that the expression of Bride and Bridegroom and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb are realities that will exist post-resurrection? Many movements jump the rails because they have an overly realized eschatology. This can exist towards extreme doctrines of physical healing and extreme holiness doctrines. Folk try to make in the 'here and now' realities meant for the post-resurrection 'world'. These eschatological over realizations create problems for man in a fallen world. I am not so sure we can fully appreciate our relationship with Christ without a glorified body and mind; though we can press with all our might to know Him and walk in fellowship and love. So the whole Bride and Groom thing, to me, cannot find its full expression in the here and now. We need to cleave to our first love and not depart from Him, but to take that into some sort of romantic type 'feel' is way uncomfortable and alarming to me. God Bless,-Robert

So the whole Bride and Groom thing, to me, cannot find its full expression in the here and now. We need to cleave to our first love and not depart from Him, but to take that into some sort of romantic type 'feel' is way uncomfortable and alarming to me.The consumation happens at the resurrection! For now We walk by FAITH and not by sight. That surely, includes the other natural senses. Walking in the Spirit is very different than walking in the flesh. I think we mix these up, and attach spiritual virtue to fleshly passions. Also we view spiritual-seeming people as authentic followers, but they as yet, may very well be dead in Christ.For now, any attempts to simulate the consumation of the Bride with Christ only leads to spiritual adultery of some kind. The epistle of James reminds us that we are led astray by our sinful desires. Satan is quite able to give us what we desire, and then convince us that it is the authentic thing. Diane

Could we not all agree that the expression of Bride and Bridegroom and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb are realities that will exist post-resurrection? Many movements jump the rails because they have an overly realized eschatology.Great point. Also, the usage of the husband/wife and bride/bridegroom imagery in the Bible always seems to be in a corporate context. The New Testament individual relationship with God is primarily pictured in the Father and son/daughter relationship. I believe that this touchpoint of seeing God in a paternal light helps bring all the facets of His nature and character into proper perspective and balance.This issue of "WHO GOD IS" and how we think about Him is of tremendous importance for the church. The following quote touches on this idea very well...The history of mankind will probably show that no people has ever risen above its religion, and man’s spiritual history will positively demonstrate that no religion has ever been greater than its idea of God. Worship is pure or base as the worshiper entertains high or low thoughts of God.For this reason the gravest question before the Church is always God Himself, and the most portentous fact about any man is not what he at a given time may say or do, but what he in his deep heart conceives God to be like. We tend by a secret law of the soul to move toward our mental image of God. This is true not only of the individual Christian, but of the company of Christians that composes the Church. Always the most revealing thing about the Church is her idea of God, just as her most significant message is what she says about Him or leaves unsaid, for her silence is often more eloquent than her speech. She can never escape the self-disclosure of her witness concerning God.-from The Knowledge of the Holy by A.W. TozerIn Christ,Ron

And then he also wrote 1 Corinthians 13 though he rebuked Peter and not a few others. That was Paul's Love though staunch in doctrine love came first ... even in rebukes (or WHY some rebukes.Peter got the hang of it too ....1Pe 1:22,23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.This is certainly true as James also agrees reminding us that the wisdom from above is contrary to that which is earthly+sensual+demonic. We simply cannot have a bad spirit even when we may disagree. As Annie states, love does have to come first. I also think we have to give place for liberty of conscience in our expression of faith. God forbid that I would tred upon that. I am equally concerned that a generation would develop a false sense of who God is as a result of the infiltration of a non-biblical posture towards God. There are many variables in this and we have been fashioned towards Him by many 'tools'. Would to God that His Word be the tool of choice and through our times with Him in devotions and prayer and worship we would be changed into His image from glory to glory. I fear that we can also get comfortable coming into the presence of God (as it were) with a boldness that is more arrogance than grace. Watchman Nee reminds us that we come by the blood every time we come. This means that our works never allow us to come by them. And if I might so say, nor would be our close relationship of fellowship with Him. its the blood, the first time and every time there after. Familiarity breeds contempt- as subtle and quiet as that contempt might be; even if it is expressed in our confortableness in failing to recognize these things in prayer and fellowship with Him. What if I put it like this, "I don't need the blood anymore, me and God are friends."?

Hi Annie,Seeking signs and wonders, etc. etc. and all that I've heard on here of late has been overwhelming and all the recent "articles" by these new Prophets and Teachers have just about leveled me in disbelief that we stand on some of the greatest Authors this world has ever seen and right behind them or along side them, we're bringing in the world's greatest and Last Deception ... the Mother Load of Deceptions.For me I think I focus perhaps too much on error and deceptions as it gets me out of balance. There are indeed many false teachers leading folk into false doctrines and experience (what a deadly combination). You are right concerning the genuine presence of God, one could not help but bow the knee. Brother, you know that I respect you, and if anyone had read Watchman Nee enough and properly, how on earth could "familiarity bring contempt" from being in His Presence which Paul also calls walking/living/praying/etc. in the Spirit ? And if it's the REAL PRESENCE that we are in, (unlike modern evangelists) as Patrick pointed out, we'd be flattened out onto our face at first ... so this "arrogance" thing I hear so much about or thrown about so much is because We are NOT in "HIS" presence ... as I think that is what you are obviously saying.Your quote wasn't coming against "the real thing" ... but the point is we need to get "our stuff" as Paul did and why I believe the compelling to post what I posted above ... This opens the door for some very tough questions. What would one be coming into the presence of if they are not compelled to great reverence? I am not expressing that as accurately as I want to, but I hope you get the jest of it. The only word that comes to mind is 'counterfeit'. In the US when you do to department stores and such the cashier will sometimes use a brown colored marker to swipe across the $20 bill (or $50, $100, etc.). This marker reacts to the paper and changes colors if it is a counterfeit bill. Now get this, if a person worked hard for that $20 or $100 bill or it was a gift given in good faith and now the revelation comes that it is worthless; how would a person react? They believed it was legit and have suffered a considerable loss. We have never lived in a time when there are so many counterfeit things; money, clothing, shoes, consumable items, you name it. The thing I see with the original article is that the lovey dovey feelings that accompany bygone love songs is being mistaken for the REAL presence of God. Many modern worship songs have that same feel I recall as a teenager listening to the radio late at night. Notice how many worship songs only use personal pronouns as the object of the worship or praise? We see less and less of "Jesus", "Christ", "Lord", "Savior", and even God.

I am posting a follow up to the original article here as we continue this discussion:DEEP INTIMACY with GOD-by Andrew Strom.With all this talk about the error of the sensual "Jesus as Lover"teaching, I don't want to give the impression that I am againsthaving a deep intimacy with God. The fact is - my whole ministryis devoted to bringing people into a closer and closer walk withHim - a walk of deep communion and intimacy. But there is one very important difference. -And it is all to do with the 'CHARACTER'of God, and how we approach Him.Since I was 17 years old - when I first went through a true"Revival" experience in my life - I have found myself in deepcommunion with God in prayer. Many times I have found myself(as it were) in the very 'throneroom' presence of God, where allI could do was behold His glory and majesty in awe - often withtears streaming down my face. "HOLY HOLY HOLY". Sometimes I have been unable to speak or utter any word for hours at a time - because what words are sufficent for such things? -This is the God that I came to deeply love. -A 'HOLY' God. For many years now I have had these experiences - and I believe they are totally "normal" for all believers. In fact, this is what I spoke about at our recent 'Gathering'. -How to become 'Revived' and come into a state of deep communion with God. I am totally committed to the fact that this is God's will for every Christian. -Nothing 'unusual'.But there are "foundations" that must be laid to come into this.And one of the most important of these foundations is a rightunderstanding of God as a 'HOLY' God. -I mean deeply andutterly "Holy". -Holy beyond words and almost beyond comprehension. The more we get a grasp of God's HOLINESS, the more we ourselves desire holiness, and the closer and closer to Him we become. I have seen this and I know it is true.We all know the Scripture- "The FEAR of the LORD is the beginningof wisdom." But what a lot of us don't realize is that it is throughthis reverent 'Fear' of the Lord that we ultimately come into a deep'LOVE' relationship with Him. In other words, as this foundation ofGod's majesty and glory and holiness is laid in our hearts - our whole approach to Him changes. We start to see Him as He reallyis - in all His GLORY - and we start to LOVE Him more and more. And as His holiness works its way more and more into our lives, we come closer and closer to Him - until we have a 'LOVE'relationship and a holy intimacy that is beyond words. -This isthe secret of the truly 'Revived' life. It is all about apprehending the 'HOLY' character and nature of God. -That is where it starts. Which is why I have such a problem with the "Jesus as Lover"teaching. -Because it brings God down to "our level" - a sensual,'earthy' level rather than a 'throneroom' one. It is an awful distortion.I know from Scripture and all Revival history that it is the God ofGLORY and HOLINESS - the "throneroom" God - that we mustget to know if we are to come into the deepest heart communion and intimacy with Him. I know it from all my studies of Revival and I know it by personal experience. -It really is possible to come into the deepest kind of heart-communion with a 'HOLY' God. -And that is the key: A 'HOLY' God. Through the free gift of the cleansing blood of Jesus - a FREE GIFT - we can truly and deeply become the 'FRIEND' of the King of Kings. -Now, how precious is that?? How many billions of dollars couldyou pay for that?? -We can actually become the 'FRIEND' of the God of all glory - Creator of the Universe. This is the God thatwe can come to intimately know and love. And a major key to this is first apprehending Him as "HOLY". (-ie. The 'Fear' of the Lord). If you come to our Friday night online Prayer Meetings then you will see how often we simply tell God how much we love Him. -So I am all for LOVING God!! -But to have any real depth, this "love" must come from a place of apprehending His holiness and glory - ie. The TRUE GOD.Real love certainly does not come from apprehending Him as some sensual "lover"! I am not Jesus's girlfriend - and I will neverapproach Him in that way. If we cannot approach God as 'HOLY'then we will never truly see Him at all. 'HOLINESS' is whereit is all at. -And everything develops from there. That is how wecome to deeply 'LOVE' Him.By the way, it is important to clarify that the prayer center in Kansas City does NOT teach "sexual encounters" with Jesus. But they do major on "Jesus as bridegroom/ Lover" - which causesthese problems down the line. It is totally predictable that as these teachings go out wider and wider - then "sexual" experiences will result. -Which is exactly what has been happening - even if they never intended it to. Their teachings totally lay the groundwork for such encounters. But I just needed to clarify that point.So in summary, what I have found (-and all Scripture and Revivalhistory back this up) is that an approach to a "HOLY" God iswhat is necessary if we are to develop a true love and intimacy with Him. And He is calling every one of us to come into this deeper walk. Tell me, friend, will you heed His call?

Hi Dorcas,Yes, and also there was a tremendous amount of truth contained in the songs. They were very 'doctrinal' if I could say it that way. Today, songs are so shallow and devoid of real truth. It may help to point out also that worship music and worship are almost becoming synonomous these days. :-?

MeAgain wrote :-I stick EVERY BODY in Google ... sorry ... but how else do you learn both sides when folks ask for both sides.I stumbled across Sermonindex a little over a year ago while I was comparing the "Google reputation" of a certain "minister" with that of David Wilkerson... :-DPassingThru [Edit: corrected my spelling!]

I will try and refrain from remarks that are not needed...presenting quotes and questions in a way that will hopefully provoke thought and insight and not emotion. Roberts Quote:“The thing I see with the original article is that the lovey dovey feelings that accompany bygone love songs is being mistaken for the REAL presence of God.”Please explain why yours or anyones REAL experience of God (and even what you presume is the same as the old time Revivalists) is the version the rest of the Christian Body must use as the acceptable standard for what a real presence means. God showed up to many in many different ways and even forms throughout the Bible. How is a REAL presence of God defined by mere humans? With God being Holy an Fearful and Awesome can it be grasped truly in our terms? Robert Quote:“By the way, it is important to clarify that the prayer center in Kansas City does NOT teach "sexual encounters" with Jesus. But they do major on "Jesus as bridegroom/ Lover" - which causesthese problems down the line. It is totally predictable that as these teachings go out wider and wider - then "sexual" experiences will result. -Which is exactly what has been happening - even if they never intended it to. Their teachings totally lay the groundwork for such encounters. But I just needed to clarify that point.”I appreciate the gesture of “kindness” at the least and Truth at best towards the IHOP. However as you will read from the below quote taken from the original message of Andrews it is not in his mind to exclude IHOP from these “sexual perversions” but in fact holds them being” largest and most well known” as being mostly responsible. This is the section that if it had not been incorporated into the mix would have kept me and my contempt for his judgment at bay. But seeing as how it is in the mix it cannot but be confronted as being wrong...and in fact a sincere apology would be prudent for Andrew to put on the public “airwaves” as he so easily put these accusations out there.If you look at who is putting out the slams of those that do not fit in the mold of what the consensus so glibly makes the “standard” for Christianity you will find that there is no defaming words coming out of IHOP towards other groups. I am deeply distressed at how the arrows fly to someone who is doing something and doing it well. It seems that no one thinks they should find out first hand but use google searches to see who has the most “bad” comments about them and then to write them off accordingly. I wonder if they had Google in Christ’s day....would the search reveal such overwhelmingly good reports of Him that all would accept Him? I think the opposite would happen He would only have been crucified sooner, because no one wanted to think He was good...after all he was “doing it all wrong”.quote from original Andrew Strom message: (which is what this thread is about)“What does the term "Passion for Jesus" mean to you? Would it surprise you to learn that whole Christian movements are now using it to mean a kind-of "eros" love for Jesus - a 'passion' for Him similar to what an earthly husband and wife have for each other? (-From the word "eros" we get the word 'erotic'). And what does the term "Intimacy with Jesus" mean to you? Would it surprise you to learn that many are now using it to mean sensual "eros"-type encounters with Jesus – with Him as the Bridegroom and them as the 'Bride'? You may think that such unscriptural practices must be out on the "fringe" somewhere. Surely they cannot be part of mainstream Christianity? Well, look around you, because this stuff is now everywhere. I live very close to one of the world's largest and most influential prayer centers here in Kansas City - and it has been a major source of this type of teaching for many years. And now it is all around the world. At this center you will find hundreds of young men and women who will tell you about being "ravished" for Jesus, "kissing" Jesus and 'swooning' in His arms, etc. Their entire understanding of "WHO GOD IS" and their relationship with Him is being shaped by this teaching. -And it is an utter twisting of Scripture.”THIS IS STILL A SICK AND DEMENTED OUTLOOK OF THE IHOP.THIS IS PROOF THAT IT IS REALLY INTENDED TO “HURT” THE IHOP...IT IS THE ONLY MINISTRY MENTIONED BY NAME. IT IS A LIE FROM HELL TO STIR UP STRIFE WITHIN THE BODY.TELL ME WHERE IS THE LOVE?Here is an excerpt from what one well know conservative Christian Preacher wrote about The Bride>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------SEEING OURSELVES AS GOD SEES US—Look long enough into the eyes of our Savior and, there, too, you will see a bride. Dressed in fine linen. Clothed in pure grace. From the wreath in her hair to the clouds at her feet, she is royal; she is the princess. She is the bride. His bride. Walking toward him, she is not yet with him. But he sees her, he awaits her, he longs for her. “Who could bear to live without her?” you hear him whisper. And who is that bride? Who is this beauty who occupies the heart of Jesus?It is not nature. He loves his creation and creation groans to be with him, but he never called creation his bride. It is not his angels. His angels are ever present to worship and serve him, but he never called the heavenly beings his bride. Then who? Who is this bride about whom Jesus speaks and for whom Jesus longs? Who is this maiden who has captured the heart of God’s son? You are. You have captured the heart of God. “As a man rejoices over his new wife, so your God will rejoice over you.” (Isaiah 62:5) The challenge is to remember that. To meditate on it. To focus on it. To allow his love to change the way you look at you. Do you ever feel unnoticed? New clothes and styles may help for a while. But if you want permanent change, learn to see yourself as God sees you: “He has covered me with clothes of salvation and wrapped me with a coat of goodness, like a bridegroom dressed for his wedding, like a bride dressed in jewels” (Isaiah 61:10)Question: What does it mean to you that God rejoices over you?By Max Lucado----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Just because YOU (if the shoe fits) do not understand what IS being taught at the IHOP does not mean it should not be taught or that the revelation of it is FALSE. If you remember throughout history any one or group that moved the Body forward and out of its darkness usually did so at extreme cost. Their lives or persecution was often the reward for standing firm when “every” other “Christian” took shots at them. The responsibility of perverting the “Jesus as Lover” doctrinal truth is not on the shoulders of those preaching it correctly but on those that would pervert it....as is and has been the case of all perversions that MAN has thought of to twist the Gospel into something for his personal gain versus the betterment of the Body. One last note: information is cheap and getting cheaper....look at all the information at our fingertips...who can possibly pick out someone to claim as their leader? It is for Christ that each of us must live. When we stand before God it will not be “under” anyone. Blessings,TS

MeAgain wrote :-Glad you found SI, but what about Wilkerson ?I respect David Wilkerson. I just did a search on his name to use as a comparison to see if articles criticizing ministers found via Google tend to majored on the "false" or simply slandered everything Christian.I'm not advocating this as a fool-proof method of discerning ministers, but the Bible does say that an elder is to have a good standing before the world. "PassingThru"

Referencing my capitol letters; i was not trying to yell...just emphasize. As for personal knowledge...i have been (as stated) involved with IHOP (Mike Bickle) for a few years...is there a lot I do not know about him yes. Is there a lot I do? Yes. My point is that He is not propagating a perverted form of the Truth as far as I can tell...by research. by personal experience...by what I can discern in the Spirit. To have someone else come along and make accusations for the world to see is wrong. It is not even Biblical is it? What is an ecumenical heritic? and why do you put this label on Max. It sounds as though we were judge jury and hangman all at once. We look to the external(what we see, hear, taste and smell....all the research, personal expereience etc) God is the one who looks at the Heart.Do we really believe that we are so much better than those in the spotlights? or could it be we just sound better on these forums...becasue we are not influencial enough to be quoted. As in a 1992 quote from Mike Bickle that is still being used evidently to defame him. How silly...He was admitting a mistake (sin?) and acknowledging the consequence of it. How is that bad? Yet this is still the measurement of what he has been led to do since 1992?I must jump off this thread...no time...no words that matter.TS

Hi TS,Roberts Quote:“The thing I see with the original article is that the lovey dovey feelings that accompany bygone love songs is being mistaken for the REAL presence of God.”Please explain why yours or anyones REAL experience of God (and even what you presume is the same as the old time Revivalists) is the version the rest of the Christian Body must use as the acceptable standard for what a real presence means. God showed up to many in many different ways and even forms throughout the Bible. How is a REAL presence of God defined by mere humans? With God being Holy an Fearful and Awesome can it be grasped truly in our terms? This is a good question and I consider it often. There are a lot of things in our experience that are subjective. This is why I believe we need to stay as close to the Biblical Revelation as possible. I need to stop here also and insert a thought and it is that I do not oppose the fact that there are many different means of folk expressing their faith. Different cultures do different things. I also notice that things are often different between big city churches and country churches. They 'express' their faith in Christ in various different ways. However, I still believe that scripture offers enough light to have some parameters. As for the REAL presence of God I believe that would be a good topic for a different thread. Robert Quote:“By the way, it is important to clarify that the prayer center in Kansas City does NOT teach "sexual encounters" with Jesus. But they do major on "Jesus as bridegroom/ Lover" - which causesthese problems down the line. It is totally predictable that as these teachings go out wider and wider - then "sexual" experiences will result. -Which is exactly what has been happening - even if they never intended it to. Their teachings totally lay the groundwork for such encounters. But I just needed to clarify that point.”This is actually Andrew's article. THIS IS STILL A SICK AND DEMENTED OUTLOOK OF THE IHOP.THIS IS PROOF THAT IT IS REALLY INTENDED TO “HURT” THE IHOP...IT IS THE ONLY MINISTRY MENTIONED BY NAME. IT IS A LIE FROM HELL TO STIR UP STRIFE WITHIN THE BODY.TELL ME WHERE IS THE LOVE?I don't agree with this. I believe the concern is genuine and the topic worthy of examination. If it is legit there is no need to get out of sorts trying to defend it. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.It is not a sin to discuss these issues. Nor must we assume that to 'question' anything that is going on is somehow bringing division. We need to be good Bereans and test everything. We need to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. Just because YOU (if the shoe fits) do not understand what IS being taught at the IHOP does not mean it should not be taught or that the revelation of it is FALSE. If you remember throughout history any one or group that moved the Body forward and out of its darkness usually did so at extreme cost. Their lives or persecution was often the reward for standing firm when “every” other “Christian” took shots at them. I cannot reccomend taking this approach to our beliefs as many have died for false doctrines and teachings and philosophies. That we are persecuted or 'shot at' is not the canon for measure; but the word of God is.

Web \tResults 1 - 10 of about 520,000 for kansas city prophet movement (this copied off the heading page of the Google search link that Annie posted on her response)Which of the 520,000 pages do you believe? And why...because someone says so? If the answer is because it is backed up with scripture the same will be said of those that are not making a living tearing down other peoples ministry’s. God is well capable of bringing down what He wants....he after all sets the Kings of Nations in place does he not? I do not remember a sect/group of “Christians branching off and forming a “watchdog” ministry. Imagine asking for donations so that they may further the great and noble effort of “deciding” who is Godly and who is not. Typical of our modern day attitude to want the work done for him so he does not have to think for himself. Annie...this is not directed at you, but is directed to any and all who would use this set up to “discern” truth from the false. Don’t we know that the Christian media...of which this watchdog site is....is just as corrupt at the least as those they presume to “watch” over. (are we not all human) They take quotes out of context, they take quotes from years ago and they twist and turn it to uphold their view of whomever they are “diagnosing”. I am not coming after anyone except Andrew Strom...I apologize again for being defensive...sounding defensive; I seem unable to get out of the mode. The fact of the matter is that I am trying in my very weak way to defend what seems to be taking a very bad rap.Annie Quote:“Why do we hate Apologetic/Discernment Ministries so much ? “Because men are in charge of them...which inherently makes them sketchy at best and evil at worst....re-read above reasoning.Quote from Andy....“maybe the truth of all this is were to far away from it and ur to close?”This is very likely and highly probable...it helps me gain better perspective on the issue at large. If someone was talking about your wife or your daughter and mis-representing them while others were taking the lies as truth....you may empathize better with my passion. I know I need to try and see this through the eyes of someone not here....i obviously do not do this well.Robert---I offer my apology to you for sounding like or even attempting to “come after you”. I am sure that you love God and are honestly trying to promote the Truth of the Gospel. When I disagree it is not personal but hopefully based on what I see (or at least think I see) in writing.This is another quote from the original message of the 1st post of this thread.From Andrews message---Quote“The real issue is this:- Should we re-invent our entire understanding of "Who God is" and how we approach Him - to fit in with a tiny book of semi-erotic poetry from the Old Testament? Should this become our dominant understanding of God?)”I would ask Brother Andrew...if I ever got beyond the ihop slam....What is our understanding of “Who God is” and how we approach Him? As we can all see the Church is in a pitiful shape, the world is going down even faster and we actually want to stand on “our view” of Who God is! If ever there was a time to re-think our understanding and our approach isn’t it now? We need a Josiah to bring out the Truth for the Body to see so that we may repent and find the path that God wants us on. If the old tried and true method was working so well would we be in this mess? Would abortion, divorce...sex sin, pornography etc etc have risen to the levels it has both within the church and without?We need to see God in a REAL way....but tell me why we want it to be the same way it has been? Where is the fruit? If the relationship had been real would not we be in a place of spiritual knowledge, just living and righteous actions.Robert, you put this in one of your responses; I think I mis-understood...to me it sounds like you are saying it is in Andrews article posted as the 1st message of this thread, I could not find this in the message on this thread. I thought you had typed this as your own post to the thread.Quote: Robert Quote:“By the way, it is important to clarify that the prayer center in Kansas City does NOT teach "sexual encounters" with Jesus. But they do major on "Jesus as bridegroom/ Lover" - which causesthese problems down the line. It is totally predictable that as these teachings go out wider and wider - then "sexual" experiences will result. -Which is exactly what has been happening - even if they never intended it to. Their teachings totally lay the groundwork for such encounters. But I just needed to clarify that point. This is actually Andrew's article." (????)We live in a scary day...no doubt. May the Lord have Mercy on us.TS

I copied this from another Thread under scriptures and doctrines (pretty sure).I think it fits into this thread just to get us to think how critical we are...should we take this guys word for it?Or should we google the "revivalist" and the mentioned faith healer...Katherine Khulman? I am sure it will tell all kinds of reasons why she is a fake and certainly did not walk in any power...or if there was power it was demonic. What do the "watchdogs" say?My heart is almost so cold that I can do nothing but doubt. I pray God will forgive my unbelief, and soften my heart to accept what I do not understand.TSBelow is the the first post to another Thread copied and pasted----There ain't nothin' like a Holy Ghost meetin' " Not by might, nor by power, but by MY SPIRIT, saith the LORD of hosts."---Zechariah 4:6 "Now the LORD is that SPIRIT: and where the SPIRIT OF THE LORD is, there is LIBERTY. ---2nd Corinthians 3:17 ( emphasis mine )________________________________________________________________________________Now, right at the outset of this message, I would like to acknowledge that I really do know that the TITLE of this message is not in proper diction---( actually, I only know this because my beloved wife is an ENGLISH MAJOR, and taught English in the public schools, ....and she finds my particular brand of "English" especially atrocious and offensive to her refined and educated sensibilities. ) So, I said all of that to say, that, yes, I do know that my TITLE should probably read---"THERE IS NOT ANYTHING QUITE LIKE A MEETING WHERE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS PRESENT " ----but, I like my TITLE much better, so let's get on with it.Most preachers, it seems, will have three points and a poem to their sermon. I don't really know how many points I'll wind up with, or if there will be any point at all, but I do have TWO POEMS to start off with. The first was written by "yours truly" and I do not know who penned the second."There ain't nothin' like a Holy Ghost meetin', I declare,I can feel a Holy Ghost meetin' comin'--it's in the air--There'll be shoutin', runnin', praisin' and preachin'---When you have a Holy Ghost meetin'---There ain't nothin' like a Holy Ghost meetin', I declare.""Well, they call us "Holy Rollers" and, you know, I guess it's really true---But, if you knew why we were rolling, Brother, you'd be rolling too."Speaking of "Holy Rollers", I'm reminded of an old fashioned Holy Ghost Meetin' which we attended a few years ago here in Dallas, Texas. Evangelist R.W. Schambach came and set up his HUGE Gospel Tent, seating SIX THOUSAND people. Right at the outset, of this Holy Ghost Meetin', I was very disturbed by two "characters" who were seated right in the front row. These two young men were, I'd say, between 20 and 25 years of age. They were always seated right next to each other and they were getting on my nerves---BIG TIME ! You see, every service, afternoon and evening, everyday, these two guys were up and on their feet---right from the opening song ! I mean, it really did not even take an opening song---if somebody so much as shouted a "HALLELUJAH !!!" or maybe a good "GLORY !!!!!!" these two were up and at it. You ask---"Up and at what, brother Carl ? " Well, maybe I shouldn't even tell you....many of you might get just as upset as I did....You, know, we all know the Scripture about everything being done "decently and in order " and everything, and well, this which was taking place, before my eyes, wasn't too "decent" and not very much "in order"---BUT, WHAT MOST OF US NEVER TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION IS THAT IT'S---GOD'S ORDER--WHICH THE BIBLE IS SPEAKING OF, AND GOD IS NOT NEAR AS BASHFUL AND REFINED AS MOST OF US "DECENTLY AND IN ORDER" FOLKS ARE.Ok, I'll tell you about it. But, I caution you, reserve your judgement until you read all the way to the end of the story---At the very outset of music, song, praise, worship, or almost anything else,the one young man was on his feet and dancing all over creation....and I mean--DANCIN'.He really got with it and--- HE REALLY DIDN'T CARE WHO LIKED IT OR NOT---he was oblivious to everything and everybody, with his eyes uplifted to Heaven and a certain GLOW on his face. But, he irritated ME ( the BIG I ) because, I did not think that he was "decent and in order ". Now, this second fellow,.... maybe I better not tell you ?!.... Ok, I'll tell you. But you'll get all offended , just like I did.-----This second fellow, at the drop of any hat, was up on his feet,and he was NOT dancin' ....ah,... I better not tell you....Ok, Ok, I'll tell you, but remember I warned you that I probably shouldn't. He was up, out of his seat, and doin' CART WHEELS all over the front of the BIG TENT---I mean, he wasn't hiding over in the corner....HE DID NOT EVEN LOOK EMBARRASSED !!! There he was in full view of thousands---DOING CART WHEELS !!! I mean--- DOING CART WHEELS !!!---AT CHURCH !!!!!!Every time, these two were up and at it, which was most of the time, I would elbow my wife, roll my eyes and whisper---"Why don't those two just sit down !? " Connie, never seemed disturbed about these two, and would just elbow me and whisper back---SHHHHHHHHHHH ! Then, I'd look at the Evangelist R.W. Schambach, and he did NOT seem one bit disturbed by these two "characters" either. In fact, he seemed to be enjoying it. He was all smiles and laughing a good bit. Then, I would disgustingly think to MYSELF ---"Am I the only one in this tent that knows these two guys are---"OUT OF ORDER " ?!Then, one day, after several days of these "goings on", Evangelist Schambach stood in the pulpit and pointed down at these two young "out of order " fellows and called them by name and said---" You two come on up here and tell all these folks your testimonies ! "The two of them JOGGED up to the platform....I mean, they didn't walk, they broke into a run !Now, it was time for the BIG I to be humbled, humiliated, and reduced to ashes and tears.( My wife, she loves times like this and just kind of looks over at me and rolls her eyes and smiles real BIG. )The dancin' fellow was the first to take the microphone and this is what he said----"I was born with Cerebral Palsy and from the time I was born, my body was twisted and contorted and I was confined to a wheel chair and never would have walked---much less danced---as I was a total invalid. Then one day, somebody took me to a Katherine Khulman meeting and THE LORD JESUS touched my body, and I got up out of that wheel chair, and I've been 100% normal ever since---ONLY THING IS, I CAN'T STOP DANCIN' !!!!!!!!!! "Well, you can imagine, the place "went wild".......some were dancin'....some were runnin'.....and EVERYBODY was SHOUTIN'--------"HALLELUJAH !!!!!!!!! " ....."GLORY !!!!!!!!!!! "( except ME, of course. I just had my head bowed ( to the dust of the floor, almost ) with tears running down my face, as I asked the Lord to please forgive ME. )Now, when everybody calmed down, a little, MR.CART WHEELS took the microphone.I could hardly believe my ears !!! I trembled and wept as we all listened to the following----"I was in college at the University of Tennessee, and I was on the football team, and I had a very promising future. Then I got involved with drugs and not only became an addict, but also a drug dealer. Then one day, in an alley, a drug deal went terribly wrong and a guy pulled a gun and put it to my head and shot me, not once or twice, but seven times---IN THE HEAD ! I fell to the ground with seven bullets in my head with blood pouring out of my head. The guy that shot me took off and I lay on the ground bleeding to death---BUT, I never lost consciousness and I began to CALL ON JESUS !--- 'Lord JESUS !!! HELP ME !!! HELP ME LORD !!!! PLEASE !!!! I DON'T WANT TO DIE, LORD !!!!! I'LL GO TO HELL, LORD !!!!!! HELP ME JESUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 'Well, the police came, and the ambulance came, ---I was still conscious as they rushed me to the hospital---the doctors were TOTALLY DUMBFOUNDED. I was not in pain, the bleeding had stopped and after x rays, and much examination, the doctors told me that I had seven bullets in my head. They could not operate to take them out, because to do so they would destroy my brain---which by the way was functioning just fine.....so they had no recourse but to discharge me from the hospital, as far as they could tell there was nothing wrong with me....except, of course, that I had seven bullets in my head !!! "...........Now, earlier, when MR. CART WHEELS ran to the podium, we all noticed that he was carrying a HUGE manilla envelope; and at this point in his testimony, he reached into the envelope and pulled out the contents, saying----"Here are my X-RAYS.....As I hold them up before you, you can plainly see the seven bullets in my head. All seven are still there---BUT, JESUS !!!!!!!---and you wonder why I do CART WHEELS all over this tent ???!!! OH JESUS !!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU, LORD JESUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'D BE IN HELL TODAY !!!!!!!!! THANK YOU, JESUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"Well, you can imagine. All Holy Ghost pandemonium broke out; and all of us ( including ME )who were present, in that Old Fashioned Holy Ghost Tent meeting, can truly testify-----There ain't nothin' like a Holy Ghost meetin'-- Written by Carl Giordano -- 11/23/2005 --

Hi TS,Robert Quote:“By the way, it is important to clarify that the prayer center in Kansas City does NOT teach "sexual encounters" with Jesus. But they do major on "Jesus as bridegroom/ Lover" - which causesthese problems down the line. It is totally predictable that as these teachings go out wider and wider - then "sexual" experiences will result. -Which is exactly what has been happening - even if they never intended it to. Their teachings totally lay the groundwork for such encounters. But I just needed to clarify that point.This is actually Andrew's article." (????)Yes, I posted (one of) Andrew's follow up articles and this was part of that.

I wish to post an E-mail I received from Andrew's list in which he shares some feedback from the original article as well as additional insight into what exactly he is talking about. REPLIES to 'JESUS AS "LOVER"??' Article:Andrew Strom"D--" writes:I ran into this a few weeks ago at our home fellowship. A womanwhom I see to be very Spirit filled, was talking to us at the dinnertable about being taken into the "upper chambers" where Jesuslaid her down on a bed of roses (because He is the Rose of SharonHe can do that, she said), and that He made love to her. Shedescribed to me this whole scene as if it were out of a romancenovel. The thought of Jesus actually making love to me made mesick... I was actually disheartened, grieved and shocked that shewas talking about this. What gets me is that her friends who werewith her all agreed as if this was sound biblical doctrine."J----" writes:I just went to a ladies retreat two weeks ago and the theme wasthis same "lover Jesus" as portrayed in a book they used called,"With an Everlasting Love" by Kay Arthur. It was so Godless andselfish and full of "eros", putting thoughts and feelings in whoeverreads it that certainly did not bring glory to God... I now have theopportunity to confront the pastor's wife about this teaching thatliterally every woman fell for (except me!) and was "wooed" by theirsensuality as women and the need for love, that they sucked it right up."R---" writes:I moved here to KC 2 years ago to attend [the Prayer Center]...I have been so confused by the whole up-sweep of the "BridalParadigm" and ravished heart of Jesus and Song of Solomon.I cannot relate to Jesus as romantic lover, nor do I want to!! I amtrying to have clean thoughts and a pure heart. I want a Godlyhusband to be that for me, to model Christ's love and headship.All my friends tell me, "Jesus is your husband - let Him be yourfirst love and your provider". As if I should shun men and give upon the idea of marriage."L---" writes:There is a strange message behind this Bridal Paradigm - It wasshown at the CALL in Kansas City. I was there. I witinessed this.There was a call to all those young people who were in attendanceat this KC gathering and a few older - to pledge a marriage covenantright then that night to be MARRIED to Christ.There was a Marriage Canopy held up for a marriage procession ashundreds marched under it as to become covenantly married toChrist. They made it seem so righteous and holy. So many threwaway their discernment and followed the leaders - forgetting that themarriage actually takes place in heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb.CBN NEWS REPORT - Jan 6, 2002:"The Call" in Kansas City: A Marriage Covenant with Jesus.By Wendy Griffith CBN News Reporter.Some 20,000 mostly young people packed the Kansas CityConvention Center on New Year's Eve for a wedding ceremonyunlike any other... as each person who came embarked on amarriage covenant with the Bridegroom of Heaven... From noonuntil midnight they danced and sang, fasted and prayed, and gotready to get married to Jesus."There's going to be a wedding and God is raising up friends of theBridegroom to prepare the church, there's going to be a wedding!"One by one, thousands of men and women, young and old, madetheir vows and walked under the prayer shawl symbolizing theircommitment to Jesus.[A COMMENTATOR NOTES: The huppah is in fact an integral partof a binding WEDDING CEREMONY between man and woman;therefore what these young people were doing was getting married -but to whom? The Bible tells us that the marriage of the Lambtakes place "in heaven" and only at the Day of Redemption whenall believers are gathered in. It does not take place on earth as a"preparation" for the Lord's coming].Continuing the CBN Report..."Stewart Greaves, a 30-year-old, said, "I really feel like the Lord iscalling young people to fall madly in love with Him. I've always feltthat the difference between religion and relationship is intimacy withJesus..."Here in Kansas City, there has already been a tremendous focuson the bridal love of Jesus... where for three and a half years, ateam of prophetic singers, intercessors and others have held24-hour-a-day praise and worship focusing on Jesus as thebridegroom. [-END of REPORT].FROM a BOOK that is Required Reading at the School of thisKansas City prayer center:"He [God] has given Himself to both the exhilirations and thewoundings of a lovesick heart. When He gazes upon me, He seesthrough the eyes of love and desire. He comes before me andsays, 'I am a Man in love. I am a God that burns with desire, andI have set My affections on you. I am an all-consuming fire of love,and you are the inheritance that My Father has promised me. Willyou receive My love?'" (Pg 57)."O Gaze Eternal,How penetrating are Your FiresRushing through my darkest placesWith the burning streams of DesireLeaving me naked, purged and bare... Yet embraced...You take hold of my weakest placesAnd kiss them with Your mercyLifting up my low groundsWith your mighty love so holy..." (Pg 52)."She lifted her arms wide to the Lord and said with all of herstrength and her love, 'Enjoy me. Right here, right now, in myabsolute weakness, enjoy me.'" (Pg 84).NOTE: The above book goes on and on in a similar vein for200 pages. We remind you again that this is an officiallyrecommended publication at this Kansas City prayer center, witha Foreword by the LEADER of the movement himself. It is"Required Reading" for the young people at their ministry School.When they talk about a Bridal "Paradigm" - what do they mean?Well, a 'paradigm' is a new mindset or "world-view". These peopleare now viewing Jesus and Christianity through an entirely new setof lenses - so to speak. -Through this 'BRIDAL' Paradigm. Formany, that is now their dominant understanding of Jesus Christ.Comments anyone?*****End of Article*******Ed. As an additional comment I must mention that Andrew told me personally that these are quite moderate examples and are not to be construed as 'extreme'.

Hi Annie,The enemy is a master at taking things to extremes. I think its why so many times in non-pentecostal circles, pentecostalism is thrown out (baby and bathwater as they say). I did have a thought that keeps coming back to me. Does it seem as though folk get into all sorts of weird things when they fail to do what the Lord asked of them? I mean, simple obedience to clear teachings in scripture about 'ministering' to the Lord. I think about:Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matthew 25)Look at the "I was" statements. * I was hungry* I was a stranger* I was thirsty* I was sick* I was in prisonHere are 5 clear examples our Lord gave of how to 'minister' to the Lord. I know this is not popular, but why do folk seek mystical experiences to find the Lord, when He is in every homeless shelter, hospital, and jail cell in the world? I cannot help but understand that our Lord is saying, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Now, either He meant what He said or He didn't. He is telling is how to express our faith. I don't discount other means also such as singing and worshiping and making melody in our hearts to the Lord or even fellowship with the Saints, etc. But I am afraid we have majored on the minors and neglected one of the truest expressions of worship and its good old fashioned obedience. Behold, to obey is better than to sacrifice. Is it not a Saul generation that would prefer a sacrifice to obedience? They will bring the sacrifice of 'praise', but will not do what Jesus described as His definition of ministering to Him. And the cost is a terrible one when we read on in the passage. I mean, really, how can we keep waiting on a word from God to go do what He has already commanded us? We have a messed up idea of what 'worship' really is, in my opinion. Is it not lip-service when our words of adoration do not match our actions? Would God prefer so of our 'offerings' in place of obedience? Would it not bring Him glory to just simply do what He said to do as our primary means of expressing our faith and not continuing to find crafty ways to give Him things that He has not required at our hands?Am I making sense here?

Hi Andy,i find it all very cynical myself..what worries me most is motive..is it for Gods glory or to score some points on ex-friends?I understand. Andrew comes from the 'out of church' movement, which he has written about extensively. He was involved in the prophetic movement as he lived in New Zealand and studied revival. He is very versed on the revivalists and their core doctrines. So, in fairness I think he believed that the prophetic movement should have some real 'prophets'. Ron Bailey (philologos) often talks about being pedantic when using Bible terms. Andrew had one idea of 'Prophet', but those within the movement saw it as something quite different. I think he wanted to change it from within (to be a tool used of God to that purpose), but after a huge prophetic movement meeting in KC in 2004 or 2005, he renounced the movement all together. Being from New Zealand he had read about Kansas City and believes that God was going to start bringing revival to America from KC. He knew the KC prophet thing was way off the rails, but again, hopes to try to see God salvage what he believes God still wants to do. He came here to the US on a 5 year visa in Feb 2004 to try to make a call to those folk who were estranged by the troubles that had happened with the movement. I suppose the whole topic of IHOP has come into play because of the connection. He has felt those things which he has just now made public for at least a few years (maybe longer) as we talked about it early on. He even went as far as to rent out the cafeteria at the old Metro Christian Fellowship Church (home of KC prophets, etc) to try to hold Sunday PM meetings to bring correction to the movement by preaching repentance and revival. That went on for a few months and then IHOP (or someone affiliated) bought back the Metro church and ended his short ministry there. this happened soon after he released the "Leaving the Prophetic Movement" article. He really believed that those guys would come together and repent in light of recent failures high up in leadership; but it was almost the opposite. And for that cause, he rolled out. Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks Robert,This whole thing has truly been an exercise in resistance. Knowing your proximatey in more than one fashion to all this had left off comment and knew you would be able to bring a right understanding to what all is transpiring not only there, but more broadly.I know there was quite a bit of misunderstanding of motives suggested earlier here and if anything that is endearing about Andrew Strom is his willingness and admitting to reverse course and truly come to terms with things as they are. It seems to be a lost part of this walk in our day.But this whole thing is just incredibaly painful and disgusting amongst many a adjective...Earlier points mentioned here about this being even persuasive in other forms of worship, modern music and such was something that is certainly true and where I had originally thought this was all going. But to hear this expressed and as was well put;Well, a 'paradigm' is a new mindset or "world-view". These people are now viewing Jesus and Christianity through an entirely new setof lenses - so to speak. -Through this 'BRIDAL' Paradigm. For many, that is now their dominant understanding of Jesus Christ.It's just beyond me. Let My people think

The purest form of desire...truly the only pure form at the moment, is expressed by the Father through the Son towards man. He desires us....this is the Mystery. If He did not we would not be here and it would not be clearly focused on from Genesis through Revelation. Our correct response back and only as He puts it in us...without Him we have no “good” thing in us; is to desire Him back. This manifests as our knowledge of Him increases in our Spirit man...not in our Flesh man. You can and should substitute the word knowledge of for intimacy with. As is expressed in the allegations; when the intimacy is equated with “fleshly” sexual emotions, thoughts etc., then it is a great perversion of the true intimacy that God intends for us and what is being taught at the IHOP. True intimacy is more on the lines of how it was with Adam-Eve and God when creation was new and unspoiled by sin. We in the Spirit because of the work of the cross have THAT relationship restored though we still walk in these fleshly bodies and perform the work of the flesh...some more some less but all to some extent...until the day the Lord returns and we are then transformed (fully sanctified) into what we were meant to be....of course, only for those that believe. This is a much truer expression of the Bridal Paradigm than that expressed then trashed by Andrew Strom.“Think of a Paradigm Shift as a change from one way of thinking to another. It's a revolution, a transformation, a sort of metamorphosis. It just does not happen, but rather it is driven by agents of change.” (definition found under Google) Consider the paradigm shift that Martin Luther brought to the Body bringing about the Reformation, certainly Grace was a "new" idea...the “leaders” and the “religious” thought he was a heretic....also consider that he dumped on Jews in a horrible way....bringing to mind a question. Just because God is using a man (what choice has He) and that man is being used mightily of the Lord, does it make him infallible?....NO.With this definition of Paradigm Shift it seems logical that a shift in how one (in the Body) thinks about the Bride/Bridegroom issue in the Bible is timely. As most all in the Body believe...there are many and varied signs that would necessitate a Biblical man to think we are on the verge of or actually in the end times. The Bridal paradigm as it is portrayed at IHOP KC is giving leadership, vision and revelation about this subject as it is given by God then dealt out through human hands/mouths. It is not perfect but it is also NOT heretical in what is being taught. This thread has turned into a “witch hunt” and though at times using broad and general phrases to include others, any with an intelligent mind can see it; is as I have said and Why I said the things I did, a direct attack to hurt this movement. Most of the post that Robert posted with all the “info” about the IHOP and specifically about the conference is false. Prayerbone's Quote: his last post----“but i would suggest caution,i just feel in my heart unsettled by andrews ministry,as you can tell i'm no fan of kcp..but what worries me most is where could Andrew go after he pulled out of the all ihop-kc thing? maybe im being unfair but it strikes me as slightly predictable that he goes from there to discernment!”This has to be thought through...one in the “prophetic movement” in New Zealand and hearing from God should not be making mistakes like Andrew has said he made by getting involved with the IHOP. How discerning is he? Once with them he gets burned...could pride be creeping its ugly head? Then gets “out” then initiates a “discernment” ministry to trash what he was involved in. I repeat...how discerning is he? What is his 40 year background? What are his fruits?As I have asked many questions in my threads and most have not been answered to any degree but only ignored and ridiculed...it is hard to waste my time in trying to shed my experience with IHOP and the insight I have because of my “close proximity”. This thread has turned into a big cheering ground for this one sided discussion based on hear-say and lies. Annie Quote---"Robert, you're beating the right drum now brother."This is the drum of war and division...not the drum of Love and Unity.Robert Quote:---“Look at the "I was" statements. * I was hungry* I was a stranger* I was thirsty* I was sick* I was in prisonHere are 5 clear examples our Lord gave of how to 'minister' to the Lord. I know this is not popular, but why do folk seek mystical experiences to find the Lord, when He is in every homeless shelter, hospital, and jail cell in the world?”Put in context with the bashings of IHOP it would be assumed that we are not doing the things listed above. Again this is totally false...the missions base is doing all of these and more. -Twice Weekly---feeding the homeless in downtown KC--3 Times weekly we have food drop programs that help those within the body struggling and those without to have food.-Strangers are reached out to constantly in street evangelism, through the public school systems and many other avenues...bringing in the least desirables a lot of times...finding homes for them, helping them move up in life...and most importantly showing them the Love of Christ in hopes that as they see it in us they will look for the Author of it and make a decision to follow as well. -a large number 100 plus of converts just at the St. Patricks day parade outreach.-etc etc etc.Again don’t assume don’t mislead...as is evident in the following quotes.Quotes off Roberts Post:“"The Call" in Kansas City: A Marriage Covenant with Jesus.By Wendy Griffith CBN News Reporter.Some 20,000 mostly young people packed the Kansas CityConvention Center on New Year's Eve for a wedding ceremonyunlike any other...”There were only about 10,000 in attendance, that is all that will fit. Read a google capacity search for the Arena. My point is if they are 100% percent off in the amount of people attending why is there credibility given to the rest of what they say. Clearly they exaggerated (read Lied) to stimulate the reading audience or put a spin on it to make it sound more dramtic. If they are going to say something as simple as how many people attended why is it not even the truth?“The Arena has hosted nearly every type of event since the Municipal Auditorium opened in 1936 — from U.S. presidential campaigns to NCAA Final Four Championships. With barrier-free access to the main floor, it has comfortable seating for 10,700 people, including 7,300 permanent upholstered seats.”“There was a Marriage Canopy held up for a marriage procession ashundreds marched under it as to become covenantly married toChrist. They made it seem so righteous and holy. So many threwaway their discernment and followed the leaders - forgetting that themarriage actually takes place in heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb.”This is supposed to have happened at the last night...new years eve?I was at the conference, have been for the last 3 years...praying in the new year with the rest there. This did not happen. There are those within the IHOP who have chosen to stay single...even to express vows to setting themselves aside for the Lord. It is not sexual in nature or connotation.CBN: Quote---“One by one, thousands of men and women, young and old, madetheir vows and walked under the prayer shawl symbolizing theircommitment to Jesus.”Two quotes above a lady said hundreds of people went under this canopy to be married to jesus...cbn is quoted as it being thousands. Who is right and is either right?Continuing the CBN Report..."Stewart Greaves, a 30-year-old, said, "I really feel like the Lord iscalling young people to fall madly in love with Him. I've always feltthat the difference between religion and relationship is intimacy withJesus..."Here in Kansas City, there has already been a tremendous focuson the bridal love of Jesus... where for three and a half years, ateam of prophetic singers, intercessors and others have held24-hour-a-day praise and worship focusing on Jesus as thebridegroom. [-END of REPORT].The quote (if quoted accurately and the trend is to inaccuracy) says nothing that would be considered un-biblical.As it is tied in with what they (cbn) says is the focus of the IHOP twists the quote into being related to what they are saying. The prayer singing and praise and worship is just that...many and all things are prayed for...Prayer is a Good thing. This focus on Jesus as the Bridegroom is also a good thing...though not the sole Focus by any means or stretch of the imagination.Another Robert quote:--“When they talk about a Bridal "Paradigm" - what do they mean?Well, a 'paradigm' is a new mindset or "world-view". These peopleare now viewing Jesus and Christianity through an entirely new setof lenses - so to speak. -Through this 'BRIDAL' Paradigm. Formany, that is now their dominant understanding of Jesus Christ.”You again are ASSUMING...it is not the dominant understanding of Jesus Christ. Christ as Savior and King is. Without the dominant understanding of Christ as your means to salvation by the work of the Cross what possible good would there be in a Bridal Paradigm if that is the term you want to exploit.Robert Quote:“Ed. As an additional comment I must mention that Andrew told me personally that these are quite moderate examples and are not to be construed as 'extreme'. “How intriguing. Leave it to the imagination as to just how evil the Ihop (and movement) really is. This is a great marketing promotion for your part in the “discernment” ministry. I am sure he is saving the "extreme" stuff for a later message of "Love" towards the Body. Living 10 miles from the IHOP this all sounds so ridiculous. If you were talking about something I did not KNOW. Then I could put on my imagination cap and think these thoughts with you as so many are doing who are reading Andrews and your take on the IHOP.Robert, I invite you and Andrew to come and sit with me at a meeting....any meeting you pick. Lets take notes...then lets go sit down at a neutral spot and talk this over. Dare I say Brother to Brother?PLEASE STOP SLAMMING THE IHOP....you truly have no clue...no matter the eloquence behind the words.(and please do not reply that Andrews intent is not the Ihop but a more general thing...the gun is pointed directly at the IHOP...)TSFROM a BOOK that is Required Reading at the School of thisKansas City prayer center:

Hi TS,Consider the paradigm shift that Martin Luther brought to the Body bringing about the Reformation, certainly Grace was a "new" idea...the “leaders” and the “religious” thought he was a heretic.... also consider that he dumped on Jews in a horrible way....bringing to mind a question. Just because God is using a man (what choice has He) and that man is being used mightily of the Lord, does it make him infallible?....NO.I would like to insert a note that salvation by grace through faith is a fundamental truth of the Church that had been lost during the dark ages of the Holy Roman Empire while the bible was locked up in the dead language of Latin. Luther, though not perfect, was one of the men instrumental in God restoring that age old truth to the Church. Not a 'new' truth, but a lost and forgotten truth. With this definition of Paradigm Shift it seems logical that a shift in how one (in the Body) thinks about the Bride/Bridegroom issue in the Bible is timely. As most all in the Body believe...there are many and varied signs that would necessitate a Biblical man to think we are on the verge of or actually in the end times. The Bridal paradigm as it is portrayed at IHOP KC is giving leadership, vision and revelation about this subject as it is given by God then dealt out through human hands/mouths. It is not perfect but it is also NOT heretical in what is being taught.First of all I cannot recall using the word 'heretical'. I reserve that word for the most serious of errors. I am concerned about the 'vision and revelation' aspect of this quote. Keep in mind I am Classical Pentecostal, but I still hold to the Chicago statment concerning the inspiration and interpretation of scripture. The Canon is closed. Is there any solid evidence in the New Testament to support the Bridal Paradigm doctrine? I will hear the evidence. t is not perfect but it is also NOT heretical in what is being taught. This thread has turned into a “witch hunt” and though at times using broad and general phrases to include others, any with an intelligent mind can see it; is as I have said and Why I said the things I did, a direct attack to hurt this movement. Although I did not make the original post, I got involved in this thread based on the reaction to that original post in hopes of bringing clarification (as best I can) to some of the questions. I do not view it as a witchhunt at all. I have repeatedly tried to keep the tone of these posts down. Escalating the rhetoric is not helpful to our discussion. I am not angry. My blood pressure is not elevated. I am quite calm really. I hope we can continue this tone as we continue the discussion. As I have asked many questions in my threads and most have not been answered to any degree but only ignored and ridiculed...it is hard to waste my time in trying to shed my experience with IHOP and the insight I have because of my “close proximity”. This thread has turned into a big cheering ground for this one sided discussion based on hear-say and lies. This is not a fair statement because both Andrew and I am also in relative close proximity to IHOP. Andrew lives within walking distance of the former shoping center on Red Bridge Road that is now the campus. I grew up as a teen in Hickman Mills off Hillcrest road and worked just up the road from IHOP at Red Bridge and Holmes in 1986-1988. Born and raised in KC, etc. I also knew a family that went to the Vinyard when it was at Metro and know from that some of the 'concerns'. I was also with Andrew during his meetings at the old Metro church in 2004. Andrew knows several people (some of whom I have also met) who are former attendees of IHOP that are now full blown Out of Church Christians. Some of which packed up from other states and came here in hopes of seeing revival and are sorely disillusioned. People who felt called to KC to come and pray and seek God for repentance in this nation. Instead of finding a John the Baptist style repentance message, that they feel is needed to shake this nation from its slumber; they have found a Song of Solomonish message that (to them) bears little resemblance to "REPENT for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, etc." Without getting too winded here; Andrew is a repentance preacher. He believes that this nation needs a Whitfield, Finney, Wesley style call to repentance. He believes that that was the ORIGINAL mandate from God over the ministry that Mike B. is currently over. He believes the strong message of repentance has been pushed aside for a mild version of Christianity that is missing the calling of that ministry.

Hi Robert,My Quote you posted on your last response: Quote: Consider the paradigm shift that Martin Luther brought to the Body bringing about the Reformation, certainly Grace was a "new" idea...the “leaders” and the “religious” thought he was a heretic.... also consider that he dumped on Jews in a horrible way....bringing to mind a question. Just because God is using a man (what choice has He) and that man is being used mightily of the Lord, does it make him infallible?....NO.and your response:”I would like to insert a note that salvation by grace through faith is a fundamental truth of the Church that had been lost during the dark ages of the Holy Roman Empire while the bible was locked up in the dead language of Latin. Luther, though not perfect, was one of the men instrumental in God restoring that age old truth to the Church. Not a 'new' truth, but a lost and forgotten truth.”As you can see I put new in quotes...”new”...it is obvious that it is not literally a new idea...has not been since the cross. My point was to say that the “spiritual elite” of the day saw it as heresy. You told me nothing new or how it may relate to Mike Bickle restoring a “new” truth. Not being new at all but simply revealed by God in a time that the Body needs to see it. If the Wedding Supper of the Lamb is just around the corner and we (the Body) will be made ready for it...don’t you think God might give some revelation of it that has not been seen before? To go along with this would not history play true by having the “spiritual elite” of this day think it wrong. My question is are you really willing to shut something down that you really are not portraying or understanding in a True way?Your quote:“First of all I cannot recall using the word 'heretical'. I reserve that word for the most serious of errors. I am concerned about the 'vision and revelation' aspect of this quote. Keep in mind I am Classical Pentecostal, but I still hold to the Chicago statment concerning the inspiration and interpretation of scripture. The Canon is closed. Is there any solid evidence in the New Testament to support the Bridal Paradigm doctrine? I will hear the evidence.”I am not sure you used the word or if it was another on the band wagon; but if being accused of “having sexual relations” with Christ and promoting it, as the accusations go is not heretical then I really don’t know what would constitute heresy.There is scripture given to John the Revelator about the fact that the information he was given would be sealed up until the end times...if we are in the end times then that would constitute a “revealing” of this information. It does not mean more scripture to be added to the Bible... it simply means new knowledge given by the spirit for the Body. This is not an un-biblical premise in the least. There is a lot of scripture to back up the Bridal Paradigm within the new testament as well...but certainly the old testament is very sound for teaching and edification of the Church as well...it is written that All scripture is the living word of God not just the new testament....regardless of a denominational background.If you mean you are of the old order of pentacostalism and still uphold a certain letter of the law...i.e. dress code, hair code etc etc. I can see why you would have an issue with a thought like---Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty.I will work on getting the supportive versus for you to hear the evidence.Your quote;“Andrew knows several people (some of whom I have also met) who are former attendees of IHOP that are now full blown Out of Church Christians. Some of which packed up from other states and came here in hopes of seeing revival and are sorely disillusioned. People who felt called to KC to come and pray and seek God for repentance in this nation. Instead of finding a John the Baptist style repentance message, that they feel is needed to shake this nation from its slumber; they have found a Song of Solomonish message that (to them) bears little resemblance to "REPENT for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, etc."My thoughts on this are extremely experiential. This is exactly what we (my family) did. There is much involved as to the why’s/how’s we ended up here but ultimately we packed up and moved from the east coast 8 years ago...God literally called us to MO. I am usually deaf dumb blind and mute about hearing from God in a way like this. Once in Rolla MO we spent 5 years growing with many stumbles and falls along the way in the “Charismatic” side of Christianity. I am the one who is not raising his hands or jumping up and down etc etc...not to say they are bad it is just not in my spirit to do so. I prefer to close my eyes and contemplate who God is...why He wants anything to do with me...and what besides my sin can I ever offer Him. I have been a Christian since around 6-7...brought up in strict legalism with a deep perversion underlaying the whole thing both within the Baptist church we attended and the dark secret sins of incest within my own family. It created a very trying adolescence where no matter how hard I tried to offend God with my actions; I could never make Him go away...what was left after I broke all of His rules was His never ending Love which finally broke my heart and led me to repentance to this day. My point is that I \tKNOW the smell, taste and feel of death which comes from legalism. You may think it makes me very susceptible to the fluff a lot of the charismatic movement perpetuates. On the contrary I am very skeptical about man in general and especially a man saying that he is speaking for God. Sorry...I drifted. Any way after moving to KC. (our house sold in a literal 20 minutes) and God providing me with a great job...(miraculously) My family became deeply involved with IHOP. It is not an easy road...nor is it close to Heaven. As in any typical Christian setting it seems that you can find more Love at the local bar. But the truths that are taught, the purity that is sought after and the intimacy with the God who often seems miles away is worth the fight. After a year here we sold our investment home from Vermont....I then quit my job....used the profits from the house and went to the Forerunner Seminary. I went through the core curriculum and am happy for it...also God put us in the path of a couple from Israel who God has blessed with a true deliverance ministry...my wife and I both went through this...(it is not part of the IHOP and not even necessarily condoned by them)...it has been a pivotal part of our walk. I have been released from issues that have hounded me since I was 6. We also gave and gave and gave of the profits from our house....somehow we believed that God would come through and just provide through a miracle to continue school and not work. Well God has been working but definitely not in the way we thought. Our money ran out....and I (never having any issue finding a job) could not land a job. Praise God that He has seen fit to release me from that situation and I now have a good job again. Some of my point to this is to say that it is and has been very hard to be here. It seems that a lot of things go wrong...that you are constantly under attack. I know that you would assume that it must be God saying you are on the wrong track...and may never think that we consider it the front line where the Devil is working hardest to derail anyone led down this path. But if you follow that logic then surely the first century Christians would have never become martyrs. For if they did not know it was for God that they were in the situation of say being thrown to the Lions and they thought instead that it was because of God (His will) then how would they have had the courage.My flesh is angry that we gave so much...time, money...energy etc. But I go back again and again to Mary of Bethany who broke the perfume over our Lords feet. This was a years salary worth of perfumel. Did she have second thoughts later when she may have been too financially strapped to buy bread for her family? I can not understand what God is up to...I do know that for Eternity He will know that I gave up a years salary plus....put what I felt He wanted above what I wanted and helped others etc. My biggest question though is did I not go far enough? I think I stopped because it became to costly to continue...it would mean selling my very modest home....moving into a small apartment so that we could possibly be at the prayer house more and continue with school. I did not go that far....I backed out so that I could provide for my family...which God has also blessed me with. Those who have opted for the “no church Christianity” have been so hurt that they have become offended. This is no surprise...the surprise is that those that went to their death as martys did not become offended...even though it cost everything...including their lives. We in America specifically are not there...we want the World and we want God. It has not been fun standing in the food lines for food over the past months...but I refuse to become offended. I believe that I past a test (small and insignificant to someone who is actually persecuted or held to task for taking a stand for God as in China say) but God has allowed me to see some sunshine...replaced my job after a very long scare. I will go through another and another test and discipline and growth as the Lord brings me to the fullness of what he has called me for. Many are in this same place at IHOP....what I feel is truly missing is the Unity aspect of the first century church but think it will not come until it cannot be avoided...when persecution comes and the rich are no longer rich...the poor no longer poor the smart no longer smart and the stupid no longer stupid....but All simply classified as Christ followers...then we will unify. Then we lay our life down for a brother and for a King.Your quote:“He believes the strong message of repentance has been pushed aside for a mild version of Christianity that is missing the calling of that ministry.”AMEN!---I believe this too. So does Mike Bickle...so do the majority of those involved with IHOP.Robert---I appreciate your responses...I appreciate your calmness in the face of a very serious subject. Maybe we will find the common ground again...which is the Blood.I would still ask that more of my questions get responded to. Such as the integrity of CBN and their mis-representation of the conference and the other specifics I mentioned...don’t skirt what is convenient to do so with.Blessings to you.TSp.s. I saw no reply to my invite to a meeting of your choice...maybe we could even break bread together.

I find this example of how to handle issues appropriate...I wonder if they(those written to) lived this any better than I do....and if so how.Galatians 6 (Amplified Bible) 1BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also. 2Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and [a]troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete [b]what is lacking [in your obedience to it]. 3For if any person thinks himself to be somebody [too important to condescend to shoulder another's load] when he is nobody [of superiority except in his own estimation], he deceives and deludes and cheats himself. 4But let every person carefully scrutinize and examine and test his own conduct and his own work. He can then have the personal satisfaction and joy of doing something commendable [[c]in itself alone] without [resorting to] boastful comparison with his neighbor. 5For every person will have to bear ([d]be equal to understanding and calmly receive) his own [[e]little] load [f][of oppressive faults]. 6Let him who receives instruction in the Word [of God] share all good things with his teacher [contributing to his support]. 7Do not be deceived and deluded and misled; God will not allow Himself to be sneered at (scorned, disdained, or mocked [g]by mere pretensions or professions, or by His precepts being set aside.) [He inevitably deludes himself who attempts to delude God.] For whatever a man sows, that and [h]that only is what he will reap. 8For he who sows to his own flesh (lower nature, sensuality) will from the flesh reap decay and ruin and destruction, but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9And let us not lose heart and grow weary and faint in acting nobly and doing right, for in due time and at the appointed season we shall reap, if we do not loosen and relax our courage and faint. 10So then, as occasion and opportunity open up to us, let us do good [[i]morally] to all people [not only [j]being useful or profitable to them, but also doing what is for their spiritual good and advantage]. Be mindful to be a blessing, especially to those of the household of faith [those who belong to God's family with you, the believers]. 11See with what large letters I am writing with my own hand. [[k]Mark carefully these closing words of mine.] 12Those who want to make a good impression and a fine show in the flesh would try to compel you to receive circumcision, simply so that they may escape being persecuted for allegiance to the cross of Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). 13For even the circumcised [Jews] themselves do not [really] keep the Law, but they want to have you circumcised in order that they may glory in your flesh (your subjection to external rites). 14But far be it from me to glory [in anything or anyone] except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) through Whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world! 15For neither is circumcision [now] of any importance, nor uncircumcision, but [only] a new creation [the result of a new birth and a new nature in Christ Jesus, the Messiah]. 16Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule [who discipline themselves and regulate their lives by this principle], even upon the [true] Israel of God!(A) 17From now on let no person trouble me [by [l]making it necessary for me to vindicate my apostolic authority and the divine truth of my Gospel], for I bear on my body the [brand] marks of the Lord Jesus [the wounds, scars, and other outward evidence of persecutions--these testify to His ownership of me]! 18The grace (spiritual favor, blessing) of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah) be with your spirit, brethren. Amen (so be it).

Hi TS,If the Wedding Supper of the Lamb is just around the corner and we (the Body) will be made ready for it...don’t you think God might give some revelation of it that has not been seen before? To go along with this would not history play true by having the “spiritual elite” of this day think it wrong. My question is are you really willing to shut something down that you really are not portraying or understanding in a True way?I was giving this a lot of thought this morning and wonder if we ought to just look at the relevant passages dealing with the 'great mystery' as Paul described it. I could get into some hot water here, but, Ephesians 5 gives us a good picture of what we should behave like as the Bride of Christ. I think also of the passage:Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. (I Cor. 6) Lots of things come to mind here that we can build on later when we get to it. I am not sure you used the word or if it was another on the band wagon; but if being accused of “having sexual relations” with Christ and promoting it, as the accusations go is not heretical then I really don’t know what would constitute heresy.I don't want to split hairs here, but wish to make a distinction between heresy and error. Here we read:For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. (II Peter 2:18)This is the Greek word plane and it is used 10 times in the New Testament. (KJV translates as: deceit 1, delusion 1, error 7, deceive 1). The definition is:Gk. PLANE1. a wandering, a straying about a.one led astray from the right way, roams hither and thither2. metaph.mental strayinga. error, wrong opinion relative to morals or religionb. error which shows itself in action, a wrong mode of actingc. error, that which leads into error, deceit or fraudI see in this word the fact that 'error begets error'. Almost as if error can in some way 'mutate' to form a more sinister error. One may get off track biblically and end up in left field as things that are erroneous often still seem to 'make sense'. Here is the other passage:But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.(II Peter 2:1) The word here means to 'storm a city and take captive'. This is a deliberate act of making disciples after ones self causing division in the Body of Christ. It is on the list in Galatians 5:20 as an act of the 'flesh' and is birthed from carnality (I Cor 3). Carnality is the absence of the Holy Spirit in a persons life. Contrasted with those who have the Spirit and are 'Spiritual'. Titus 3:10 reads:A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject, Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.I see here how a person can be in 'error' and refuse the admonishion of those who seek to lead him/her back into truth can become a heretick indeed. Paul said that they are to be rejected. They were to be 'admonished' not bargained with. If they are in error- and that can be clearly shown- the action is admonition and not a doctrinal compromise. My biggest question though is did I not go far enough? I think I stopped because it became to costly to continue...it would mean selling my very modest home....moving into a small apartment so that we could possibly be at the prayer house more and continue with school. I did not go that far....I backed out so that I could provide for my family...which God has also blessed me with.I think of the passage and am certain you did the right thing: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (I Timothy 5:8) I would still ask that more of my questions get responded to. Such as the integrity of CBN and their mis-representation of the conference and the other specifics I mentioned...don’t skirt what is convenient to do so with.I would respond to those questions, but don't feel it is necessary as I simply posted Andrew's response. I cannot verify what Andrew wrote as it would be impossible. I simply wanted to provide additional e-mails he is sending out that are relevant to the original post. I saw no reply to my invite to a meeting of your choice...maybe we could even break bread together.That would be wonderful. We will be downtown on Saturday and Sunday at the park together (Andrew and I) ministering. You are welcome to PM me for the details. :-)

Hi TS,I find this example of how to handle issues appropriate...I wonder if they(those written to) lived this any better than I do....and if so how.At the big conference at the old Metro Church (in which Bob Jones attended) in 2004 (I think it was) Andrew had been using the cafeteria to hold meetings (as this building is HUGE) on repentance and revival. He also packed up his whole family and came here from New Zealand in early 2004 to be used of God to call out many of those who were now Out of Church to get back on track and into the call for repentance and real revival. Andrew went to that conference and genuinely believed that those involved were going to have a time of repentance themselves in light of the recent developments with Paul C. He arranged a time to meet with the main speakers and gave them each a letter of his 'concerns'. When the meeting did not go as he felt it would have in light of all that had happened; and further it was totally off the rails in other ways, he made the notorious comment, "It didn't feel like God to me" and went on to leave the prophetic movement. He wrote about that and we discussed it at length on these forums (as we have many of his writings). Andrew believes he was sent here by God (as your testimony is similar in some ways) to raise up repentance preachers in America before she misses the revival that he and others believes God wants to send. He believes that the groundwork of prayer has been to a great extent laid. The missing element is the 'Wesley, Whitfield, Finney, Evan Roberts, 'type'" ministers that God has used to preach the message of the Gospel with an anointed freshness that recovers the basics and brings genuine repentance of sin and New Birth. He believes the teachings of the whole bridal paradigm are the enemy of the revival God wants to send. He has the final note on that on his site that he sent a link to by e-mail blast yesterday. You can find his site with a simple search of his name.God Bless,-Robert

Hi Andy,I think it is a matter of first understanding each others viewpoints on things and comparing them with the scriptures. We can't go on assumptions so the longer we talk the more we understand each other. This is why its important to be patient in these conversations. I don't want to pigeon hole anyone into a belief that they do not hold. I wish to dialogue until I have a good grasp of their positions. If we keep a charitable attitude we can get there. God Bless,Robert

Hi Andy,amen to that robert..maybe cause im over here in the uk, but this all bridal thing is new to me..i must confess to gettin brain freeze at words like paradigm,wasnt it surpose to be much simpler then this lol..but on a surface glances the idea of being more in love with God,closer etc seem noble ideas i know i need to be..as long as holyness runs alongside it..I hope at some point in the thread to delve into what it really means to love the Lord. I keep thinking of passages like, "If you love me keep my commandents" and others such as, "And this is the love of God that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous," etc. Jesus told of a group that really thought they 'knew' the Lord but were told to depart from Him. When I say 'commandments' I am thinking of the basic teaching He set forth in the New Testament and especially the Gospels. God Bless,Robert

Hi TS and Robert,Just a note. Thanks for your great example here in discussing all this.I don't want to stir anything and seem to recall from the original something that I hope isn't missed by all the concentration just on IHOP.Being that there was some quotes taken from those there that have a misunderstanding whether of what is being 'taught' or however they are being acquired, the point still seems to be that this is a 'new' idea being presented in a variety of ways and that maybe the foundations have been laid well in advance. Am thinking certainly of that which Robert brought up: Error begets error.There has been an undercurrent it seems for quite awhile with where the emphesis is being placed in so much, from a variety of sources ... I guess it just seems to be that there is an 'anything goes' mentality that must accept everything and question nothing in spiritual matters.Even in the more well mannered discussion here as of late the assumption can be made towards the 'spiritual elite' (Sorry, TS I am not taking a dig here) for bringing things into question. Maybe all that I am trying to say is that this, like many other things will likely continue to be even more difficult to work through and difuse if it is seen as a 'we\\they' construct. Fortunately as you are both doing here, providing a better way of going about it.Can't say this all took me completely by surprise, it has been with us in a more subtle way just in CCM for awhile. That it is being 'formulated' as such ... Heard some of it being taught on the radio as recently as yesterday, just going out to get gas at lunch. To be honest, the reception was poor and was straining to hear how it was being presented.But I do wonder just how truly prevelant it is.

I have to agree that I'm probably getting too old to like this kind of "romance" with the Lord. It just doesn't feel right to me.

Just to let those interested that The Bridegroom issue is not just a "new" paradigm. Read carefully...especially the ending and the warnings. Which catagory do you fall in? Are you a friend of the Bridegroom...or a promoter of religion.I could not chop this article up so will include the whole of it. It is well worth reading and comparing against the original article that started this thread by Andrew.A google will bring this up on Henry Law---HENRY LAW (1797 - 1884). The Song of Solomon · Cordials in Temporal Troubles · Beacons of the Bible · Gleanings from the Book of Life · Forgiveness of Sins ...The Article: by Henry LawThe Heavenly Bridegroom "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh." Genesis 2:23Our Bible is a very Paradise of each sweet flower and each regaling fruit. But the believer sits down most gladly in those choice spots, which are thickly set with tokens of the Savior's tenderness. Surely happiness mounts up to heaven, when on Scripture's ground, and under the Spirit's light, the soul discerns that Jesus loves with an everlasting love. Reader! this humble tract will visit you in a favored hour, if it should lead you to drink deeply of such joy. We cannot move far amid the pages of the Word, without hearing the silver voice—Give ear unto Me, that I may tell you of My love. For this purpose each tender image speaks by turn. Does a father love with strength of manly love? Jesus is the Everlasting Father. Is a mother gentle in her soft caressings? Jesus is more constant—"they may forget, yet will I not forget you." Is a brother generous in his affections? Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren. Is the sisterly union as the intertwining of hearts' fibers? The Church is "His sister, His spouse." Is a friend noble in his sympathies? We read, "Henceforth I call you not servants, but I have called you friends." Will not these parallels suffice? No! not if another can be added. As all colors combine to form pure light—so all tints must join to form the full portrait of a loving Savior. There remains the full-blown endearment, when heart flows into heart in bridal-union—and will Jesus claim His people as His bride? It is so! This is the emblem, which is the Spirit's choice delight. It meets us in the garden of Eden. It walks by our side throughout the green pastures of the word. It only leaves us, when Revelation writes no more. "The Spirit and the Bride say Come." Echo replies to echo, "As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you." "I will betroth you unto Me forever; yes, I will betroth you unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies." Following such holy guidance, let us now seek Jesus in that pure feeling, which innocently played in Adam's heart, before sin entered with unhallowing touch. The narrative is simple. "So the Lord God caused Adam to fall into a deep sleep. He took one of Adam's ribs and closed up the place from which He had taken it. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib and brought her to Adam." But the mystery is deep. A greater than Adam and the first spouse are in this history of sinless union. Faith has been taught, and quickly learns, that the spiritual Bridegroom and the mystic bride are here! Earth's first espousals are but the shadow of heaven's far earlier love. The second Adam sleeps a sleep—even the sleep of death; but not in Eden's innocent delights, but on the hard altar of His ignominious cross. His side is pierced. There flow thence the means to constitute the Church. There is blood to expiate every sin—and water to wash from every stain. The Father presents the bride to Adam. The same Father gives the favored bride to Christ. Adam receives her as portion of himself. Christ's word takes up the same welcome. They "are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." We are thus emboldened to draw with reverential pen some lines of likeness. Marriage can only be in kindred race. Here the bride is low in lowly origin. Her coarse material is clay. But Jesus dwells in heaven's bright palace, bright in all the brightness, glorious in all the glories of His own Deity. How can union be? He leaves His home. He veils His Almighty might. He seeks our cell. He scorns not our loathsome rags. He is born a child of man in Bethlehem. He lives the Son of Man in human nature.O my soul! did your Lord thus stoop to make you His forever? He did. Infinite was the distance—but He came with lightning-speed on wings of love—and rested not, until He rested in your far-off abode. The bridegroom counts all efforts light to win the bride's regard. Can it be, that Jesus strives to gain unlovely souls? It is so! He lives, when we love. He scarcely seems to reign, until the heart presents her throne. Hence in the Scriptures He sends letter upon letter, each burning with the pure flame of tenderness. Hence He follows with the fond call—Turn! turn! Look unto me. Come unto Me. Return unto Me. Follow Me. Abide in Me. Hence He sends His faithful ministers—the friends of the Bridegroom—to plead His cause—to appeal in His behalf—to beseech in His name—to set forth His matchless charms—to show that His love is strong as death, and pure as the light, and boundless as eternity. That ministry is most true to Christ—most rich in everlasting fruits, which paints most vividly the mind of Christ. But more than this. The Holy Spirit comes commissioned by the Father and the Son. He reveals the Lord in all the beauties of His person—all the wonders of His grace—all the glories of His work. He subdues all prejudice—turns the stream of opposing will—and kindles a blazing torch in the dark corners of the soul. Thus union is achieved. The faithful soul forgets her own people and her father's house. She casts out the former rivals, which bewitched her thoughts. She comes out and is separate from a once-fondled world. She leaves all, and cleaves to Christ. In nuptial bonds the bride rejects the distinction of her former name. A new address attests that she is no more her own. It is just so in spiritual union. What! though the nature of Jesus proclaims essential Deity—that very nature is the Church's diadem. We are first told, that "The Lord our Righteousness" is His name. The same is her portion, for it is added, "The Lord our Righteousness" is her name too. The bridegroom courts the closest communion. It is even so with Jesus. By His Word, and through His messengers, He allures His people to His side. He opens to them the purposes of His grace—the secrets of His kingdom. He encourages them to tell out their every need, and fear, and desire, and hope. He tenderly invites, "Let me see your countenance, let me hear your voice, for sweet is your voice, and your countenance is lovely." Who can portray a bridegroom's sympathy? It is, however, but a drop compared to the full ocean of a Savior's care. "We have not a High Priest, who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities." "He who touches you, touches the very apple of His eye." "In all our affliction He is afflicted." No suffering member can be pained on earth, but the participating Head cries out in heaven, "Why are you persecuting Me?" Reader! you have often heard these truths. Do they touch a responsive chord within? If not, yours is not the bride-like spirit. The bridegroom brings his dowry. And does not Christ enrich with gifts? Angels may marvel, dazzled by the Church's wealth. He holds back nothing from her. All His attributes are her grand inheritance. His wisdom is hers to guide. His power is hers to uphold. His love is as the sun to cheer. His faithfulness and truth are her shield and support. His Spirit is poured down in unfailing measure to teach, to solace, and to bless her. His righteousness is hers, to be her spotless robe. His heavens are hers, to be her home. His throne is hers, to be her seat. His glory is hers, to be her crown. His eternity is hers, that she may joy forever. Happy the soul, which responds—All this I steadfastly believe! The bridegroom shrinks from no labors, which bring support and plenty to his beloved. Thus Jesus lives a life of watchful work. He rests not night and day. His outstretched hands are ever pleading, and ever pouring down supplies of grace. He purchased all Heaven's blessing, that His people may never lack. And as each need arises, He is all vigilance to see—all bounty to bestow. Earthly union often knows the pang of separation. Duty's stern voice may say—Depart. Necessity may force to lonely distance. But nothing in heaven, or earth, or hell, unlocks the arms which cling around a divine Bridegroom! At each moment He is nearer than the shadow to the side. Life is but leaning on His arm. Death is but sleeping on His breast. There is a never-failing bond in the sure world, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." In this cold world, affections cool. The day, which dawns in love, may close in hate. Tastes vary and cause variance. Discordant tempers make discordance. Far otherwise is the heavenly wedlock. It is ever true, "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." When Jesus calls in love, He changes by His spirit. He imparts a new nature, whose every pulse is unison with Himself. It is heaven's own harmony, when Christ is all. Here a house is often tears, because of godless offspring. Many a one has sighed, "O Absalom, my son, my son!" But from heavenly union nothing springs but heavenly seed. Believers are married to Christ, that they should bring forth fruit unto God. Apart from Him, the heart is the hotbed of evil. United to Him, it is the holy parent of each holy grace. But at present the Church sees her Bridegroom only by the eye of faith. The veil of flesh impedes the meridian gaze. But yet a little while and the day of visible espousals will arrive. A startled universe will hear the shout, "Behold the Bridegroom comes." There will resound, "as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Hallelujah, for the Lord God omnipotent reigns. Let us be glad, and rejoice, and give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." Then shall He shine forth, "to be admired in His saints, and to be glorified in all those who believe." The bride "shall be brought unto the king in clothing of needlework; with gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought, they shall enter into the king's palace." The nuptial song shall be one ceaseless Hallelujah. Happy soul, which responds—All this I confidently expect! Reader! is it your happy privilege to know that a union, which thus lives forever, cements your heart to Christ, and Christ to you? Remember, then, that this blessed relationship demands your faithfulness. The Lord is jealous of His people's love. You must not stray from Him for one single moment, or in one single thought. The caution is needful; for days are come, in which strangers are gone forth, professing to be the Bridegroom's friends. They even stand in pulpits, and give instruction in His name. By this sign you may know them. They exalt the bride rather than her Lord. They magnify His ordinances rather than Himself. They beguile her to admire herself, to lean on herself, to trust in herself, and to decorate herself in the mock robes of false humility and superstition. Take heed; the ground is slippery. It may seem pleasant to self-loving nature; but it slopes towards Antichrist!It may be that some worldling reads this whose life is wedded to another lord. Would that such may turn and burst their fearful bonds! There is indeed the prince of this world. His promises are lies. His dowry is anguish. His embrace is death. His chamber is darkness. His bed is flames of fire. His marriage-wail is agony's wild shriek. Worldling, can you love this spouse?Thank you whoever put this on sermonindex home page as a random article...it just so "happened" that God let me run across it.Blessings,TS

Hi TS,It may be that some worldling reads this whose life is wedded to another lord. Would that such may turn and burst their fearful bonds! There is indeed the prince of this world. His promises are lies. His dowry is anguish. His embrace is death. His chamber is darkness. His bed is flames of fire. His marriage-wail is agony's wild shriek. Worldling, can you love this spouse?I like this quote. By and large the article is good, I think. Although I try to balance it knowing that as a foundational piece, one may build upon it hay, wood, or stubble. I don't recall reading anything new in terms of my understanding of the 'great mystery'. It is a good synthesis, though I think some things were underemphasized (such as the obedience of the Bride).I also think that if we walk in the mindset He presents here we are in danger of eschatological over-realization. If this is the time where the Bride is to 'make herself ready' then there is no way I can take on an almost playful attitude towards Christ. I simply do not find anyone in the New Testament relating to the Lord like this, anywhere. The writings to the 7 churches are sobering enough for me not to take on the playful attitude of two infatuated youth when I approach God. I just cannot relate to God in this way and know of few historical writings in which men have done so. It brings Christ down on a 'human' level almost stripped of His Deity. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire (Hebews 12:29, 30)Perhaps we should examine this passage. I have read where God depicted as a consuming fire is that it is a fire of love, etc. almost like the passage is saying God is burning with love for His Bride, etc. But what is the context? A few verses earlier we read:See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: (12:25)This is a clear warning. It is intended to arrest our attention and embolden our focus. There is a present and real danger to turning away from Christ. We read... For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth.... If we drop back a few chapters to Hebrews 10:28,9 we see a similar statement, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Back in Hebrews 2 the course is set for the whole book with this solumn warning, For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;. Now, lets return to our passage:Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire (Hebews 12:29, 30)How are we to serve God? We have two words joined by the conjunction 'and':1) Reverence aidos (ahee-doce') Bashfulness, i.e. (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe -- reverence, shamefacedness.2) Godly Fear eulabeia (yoo-lab'-i-ah): Caution, i.e. (religiously) reverence (piety); by implication, dread (concretely) -- fear(-ed). As I put these two terms together it seems to militate against an attitude of two lovers looking into each others eyes; or what the old timey Ozark country folk would call 'sparkin'. Shamefacedness means 'downcast eyes' or bashfulness. But it does not end there. We have a '+' or an addition. We have aidos (modesty and awe) + eulabeia (Caution). The only other place eulabeia is used is in Hebrews 5:7,Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;So this is the attitude of our Lord Himself towards His Heavenly Father. The word comes from a root that means to take hold of and act right. In its root form it is translated 'devout'. This lends me to think of a person who truly "feared the Lord". In other words, they had had a revelation of the Majesty of God and understood to a significant degree the contrast between who they were and who God is. I believe it was our Lord showing us an example of how we ought to behave. Notice "though He were a Son". What was the Lord teaching us through His example? He is the Son of God and He relates like this in prayer? To me this is the crux of the case. Is God to be viewed as the Majestic Almighty that He is; or something else? Either He is a consuming Fire or He is not. God Bless,-Robert

Hi Robert;your quote:I also think that if we walk in the mindset He presents here we are in danger of eschatological over-realization. If this is the time where the Bride is to 'make herself ready' then there is no way I can take on an almost playful attitude towards Christ. I simply do not find anyone in the New Testament relating to the Lord like this, anywhere. The writings to the 7 churches are sobering enough for me not to take on the playful attitude of two infatuated youth when I approach God. I just cannot relate to God in this way and know of few historical writings in which men have done so. It brings Christ down on a 'human' level almost stripped of His Deity.This last sentence especially seems ironic. Christ did indeed come down to a “human” level...fully man...fully God. It is a main reason for our ability to relate to Him. It is now and always has been His best try (meaning perfect in His part...the failure was ours) to make someone able to commune with Him...not as subjects... but as His children or sons/daughters on earth...and His Bride when the end comes. The reason we cannot grasp the Bridal paradigm in my opinion is that we have never grasped our relationship as sons/daughters. One is not any weirder than the other...both hard to fathom with our limited/faulty sinful hearts. Both examples; in “human” terms of a God created relationship that is so wondrous that we simply cannot really believe there are no “strings” attached. The strings I speak of are initiated on the human level by putting the letter of the law above the Love of Grace. There by we go back to a works mentality...easing our conscience and somehow coming to subconsciously believe that we are “doing” something to earn heaven...though none or few would ever admit to this. Do not look at what they admit but at what they allow or do not allow as being proof of their “purity” or “holiness” before God. And no I am not preaching a "cheap" grace theology...on the contrary it is worth much more than we can fathom....encouraging us to love and OBEY Him becasue of the value of it...not using it as a license for sin. As far as anyone in the New Testament relating to Christ in a similar way...I should think a retake at John the Beloved’s behavior might be justified. Resting on the Lords breast is something that makes me uncomfortable....likely it made Peter uncomfortable...but Christ and John thought it simply intimate. Is this then something to make a perversion out of? Or should we just not let it be something that we/I do not quite understand...but know that Christ felt it appropriate. In this sad day and age I would find it uncomfortable to rest my head on my own brothers breast...not becasue I don't think I love him but that love and sex has become so pervertedly twisted and intertwined that I could not help but feel uncomfortable. John on the other hand grasped what/who Christ was to the extent that this rough fisherman with all looking on could feel comfortable doing this...what did he see/know that we don't? When we meet Christ as King/Savior/Bridegroom/Brother etc...do you really want to be so stiff as to "love" Him by showing what you have done on earth? Keeping the rules of your particular denomination or even personal beliefs so that you may lay these as some kind of trophy at His feet? Me I hope to simply say thank you for saving me in all the sin that was my life...Please teach me to love you the way John did for I do not understand.The attitude towards the Lord is not just playful it is loving...in the original creation...look at the sense of humor God has....giraffes, kangaroos...skunks! Could this God that we are to approach in only a Kingly manner be so comical? Only if He is equally apprachable as a bridegroom, a king, a father, a brother...we look at these attributes as being seperate from each other...that is becasue we are human and cannot wrap our brains around what He would look like in the multi-dimensions of who He is...All at once. When we see Him as He is (in the reality of Eternity) it will all make sense. Now it is by Faith that we have to take it (the Bridal Paradigm) for what the scripture makes evident that it is...not by our understanding.I will dig and find more evidence...it is simply called Love of a kind we as Humans cannot really understand well...or at all it seems.Blessings,TS

Hi TS,As far as anyone in the New Testament relating to Christ in a similar way...I should think a retake at John the Beloved’s behavior might be justified. Resting on the Lords breast is something that makes me uncomfortable....likely it made Peter uncomfortable...but Christ and John thought it simply intimate.I had the priviledge once of celebrating Passover (thats today btw) first century style. We laid on the floor with our heads towards our food- propped up on our elbow. Imagine lying down on your side with your head propped up. Everyone faced the person they talked to. We were quite close together and had I leaned back far enough I could have put my head on the chest of the guy behind me. I think this is what was happening with our Lord and John. Certainly nothing out-of-bounds. Please teach me to love you the way John did for I do not understand.I certainly sympathize with this. My point is that when this same John saw the glorified Christ he fell at His feet as dead. From that time on we have another facet or Revelation of the Son of God. I have to admit, that the Jesus who carries the lamb in His arms is near blown to bits when I read these passages: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Revelation 1)The more revealing thing is how He begins to deal with the churches. The 7 churches were just as much His Bride as we are. Consider a few quote: Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (2:4, 5)But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. (2:20-23)This is our Lord's approach to calling for repentance. I have to admit, I have rarely even heard these passages preached and we have much of the exact type of behavior going on in churches today. Now, we have to ask, what is the difference between the Lord's reaction to these things and now? All things are equal as we have no change in doctrine or covenant from Revelation 2 until now. And this is the whole point I believe Andrew is trying to present. Why would we depict the Lord as a Groom chasing His Bride madly in love when we already have revelation into what He would truly be doing if he we to find us in the state we are in because He has already shown it in Revelation 2 & 3. To me it is dangerous to tell a people that the Lord is sending one message when the real message is radically different. That is, unless we are prepared to suggest that the Body of Christ today is in a Philadelphian state? Does that make sense?