Does god know the future?

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ryanelijah Apr 5, 2006

So I was wondering what people thought about god being able to see into the future. I know that god declares the beginning to the end and what he declares, he brings to pass. I know that there is prophecy all over the bible but what I am curious to see is if people believe that god knows everything that will happen in the future. I would like to see some scripture from both sides. By the way the words Omniscient , omnipresent , omnipitent nare never found in the bible so if we could stear clear of them, that would be great! Thanks!

L

letsgetbusy Apr 5, 2006

Here are some verses that show what you are looking for:1 Chr 28:9 "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?"18 "Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all."31 "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?"36 "Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?"Psalm 139:5: "Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me." 6: "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." 7: "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?" 23 "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:"Matt 9:4 "And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?"Matt 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father."John 15:5 " I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."Col 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."2 Pet 3:8 "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."Rev 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."Hope these help.

B

BRudel Apr 5, 2006

Hi Ryan:No! god does not know the future.However, Almighty God does. You still have free will, though Ryan. Regards,-Bill Rudel

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Logic Apr 5, 2006

You don't need to see some scripture from both sides to answer this.God is greater than the greatest concievable being. Of course He knows the future, if He didn't He wouldn't be the greater than the greatest concievable being.God is outside of time.Was & is & is to come means omnipresent, so it is in the bible by what is meant.Alfa & Omega, the Begining & the Last.Rom 4:17....God,.....calles those things which be not as though they were.If God didn't know something, He would cease to be God.He created time, how could time be greater than He is?If He didn't, be afraid, very afraid!

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sermonindex Apr 5, 2006

If God created time then before He created it, time could not exixst. This would be impossible because no duration could exist.Time is a natural attribute of God. God did not create time. Time is apart of God's eternal uncreated essence and make-up. Just like the other natural attributes, God cannot control the fact of it. He can not be outside of it nor separate Himself from it. He is time and nothing that He ever does will change this fact. Time, like God, has no beginning or end. Every idea, thought or action of God must of necessity have some duration or interval of existence. In the sequence of events there is some interval before a creation, the creation itself and the interval after the creation. Each creation or thought of God must have these three basic truths. Every creation of God must take place within a series of events. It is impossible for any creation not to have these three truths.

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GaryE Apr 5, 2006

I think that God knows the future and has told phrophets what was to come when the prophets forthtold the future. The following verses also make me think of this.Isa 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I showed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

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CJaKfOrEsT Apr 5, 2006

In a word..."Yes." (Next question).Ryan,This reminds me of something Tozer said about a guy who asked him to explain how God took on human flesh, in Jesus. He responded by saying that he didn't have the answer because he didn't have the question. He only knew "that" God came in the flesh, so he wasn't worried about a "how". Too many people are trying to answer a "how" or "why" where God only said that.Predestination is simple. We are here to do as we are told. Who really cares whether we are walking out God's preplanned route or if we a "trailblazing" for Him. It's none of our business. If you just get on with obeying Him because He's worthy, all these inconsequential things will sort itself out.Consider this next time you watch a movie or a TV show. Notice that the characters aren't all concerned about the fact that the whole story was mapped out before the show started. They just walk out the story playing their part.Whether our life is "Broadway" or "Hollywood" (to use a pretty lame metaphor) let's live it for God.

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sermonindex Apr 5, 2006

Hi freecd,I absolutely love your post, but I don't think I can agree with any of your statements! Might your wires be slightly crossed?If God created time then before He created it, time could not exist. This would be impossible because no duration could exist.Why does this matter? (To you.)Where do you get the idea that 'duration' existed before the beginning of creation, or that sequence is anything other than a function of finite beings?Any scripture?

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ryanelijah Apr 5, 2006

Predestination is simple. We are here to do as we are told. Who really cares whether we are walking out God's preplanned route or if we a "trailblazing" for Him. It's none of our business. If you just get on with obeying Him because He's worthy, all these inconsequential things will sort itself out.CJaKfOrEst. I like what you said and it is a pretty good pat christian answer, though incorrect. God did not predestine us from the beginning. Predestination goes totally against the character of god. God loves us so much and because of this he gave us free will; the choice to determine everything in our lives. If god had not done this and pre-destined or lives then we are a bunch of robots and there is nothing beautiful about that. The incredible thing about my wife and I being married to each other is that she choose me. She could have choosen any person in the whole world but she choose me and that is beautiful. Since every person has free will, it is not possible for god to know the future. God know every person on this earth better than we could ever imagine. He knows our tendancies and every one of our thoughts so he can predict us and put things before us and be pretty confident that we will do what he thinks we will do. Still, we have the ability to make our own decisions and that keeps god from knowing what will happen tomorrow or the day after. All of the scripture I have seen on this thread points to prophecy and thats it. God doesn't see prophecy in the future, he declares it will happen and brings it to pass. You guys need to provide a little more concrete evidence than propecy to show that god knows what is going to happen tomorrow.

B

BeYeDoers Apr 5, 2006

freecd, God did indeed created time. Time is not an absolute. It is dependent upon matter and velocity. It cannot exist otherwise. Time began in Genesis 1:1 "in the beginning". I believe it was Tozer who defined eternity as the absence of time, not the infinite extension of it. Theologically, if time was absolute as God is absolute and "eternal" as God is "eternal" then He couldn't know the future or the past because He can't know more than He knows.This probably didn't make a whole lot of sense partly b/c the subject is somewhat unfathomable, and mostly b/c I don't have much "time" to spare right now to better explain. Take some time to think about the implications of time being an uncreated dimension. As for the original post: God indeed knows EVERYTHING in and out of time. As another poster said, if not, He would cease to be God b/c time would be greater than He was.Eschew Obfuscation,denver

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sermonindex Apr 5, 2006

hi all,i guess running along side this question is if he knows the future why pray? there's vairous scripture that could imply that God does change is mind by are actions or prayers Jermiah being one 26:13Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.i seem to remember there is also a scripture that says God tells someone not to pray stoppp praying 'cause God would have to answer (ive forgotten the verse,anyone??)..so does God know that he would change is mind b4 he did..if the future is know to God and his mind cant be changed,then why do we pray..aj

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sermonindex Apr 5, 2006

ps the idea that God does change is mind/or the future is not set in stone,seems to me the way round predestination..aj

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sermonindex Apr 5, 2006

dorcas, you said"Might your wires be slightly crossed?"Who knows? If so, was I created this way or did I use my free will? Did God create his own power? Can he change the fact that He has it? Was there a time before time? When did God start?You can not seperate His power from Him anymore than you can seperate time from Him.Once God thinks a certain thought He cannot somehow go back in succession. He can create something and then destroy it, but it did exist for some interval or duration. He can not travel back in time before he created it. No matter what God did He could never undo any of His actions or thoughts as though they never existed. God cannot think a thought and then unthink it. God can think a different thought and change His mind, but He can never go back in time or the series of events. God is very personal and active. He has made many choices and will continue to make many more. God has a free will. His thoughts are really his own creation. God is part of an endless and continuous sequence of thoughts, ideas and actions. Once God thinks a thought it becomes forever embedded in the essence of time.

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MSeaman Apr 5, 2006

Hi Ryan, I was wondering what your thoughts are on this subject? I believe that God knows the future. He knew before He created the earth that man would fall and need a Saviour. It's not like he stuck them in the garden, they disobeyed and he said Oops Plan B, better make a redemption plan. I will give some scripture to back up my belief shortly.Take care.

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ryanelijah Apr 5, 2006

Hi MSeaman. I would love to see some scripture that god knew man would rebel against him. That sounds schitzophrenic to me. No offense to you or god but why would he create us if he knew we would rebel against him. That makes no sense at all?

M

MrBillPro Apr 5, 2006

Logic wrote:You don't need to see some scripture from both sides to answer this.God is greater than the greatest concievable being. Of course He knows the future, Your right on there if not were all in trouble. :-?

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MrBillPro Apr 5, 2006

Deu 31:27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Psa 75:5 Lift not up your horn on high: speak [not with] a stiff neck. Jer 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.

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CJaKfOrEsT Apr 6, 2006

ryanelijah wrote:CJaKfOrEst. I like what you said and it is a pretty good pat christian answer, though incorrect. God did not predestine us from the beginning.Firstly, you might like to reread what I wrote, and not assume you know what side of the Calvin/Arminus debate that I sit on. The reality is "predestinated" is the word used is Eph 1. What Paul actually meant has had Christians scratching their heads since he wrote it (after all Luther and Augustine were both more "Calvinistic" than Calvin). My point in my post was that too many people spend too much time stressing about the this one word that occurs so little in scripture.Sorry to say, but God does know the future. He knows the end from the beginning. He is surprised by nothing. Whether that makes him like a master chess player who can predict every possible outcome, or whether He actually mapped it out from the beginning I don't know, and I don't lose any sleep over it, trusting the He is bigger than silly questions like this.Keith Daniel put it this way, "Be careful of choosing a side. When it comes to choosing a side, choose the Bible." (slight paraphrase) Fact: He chooses us before we choose Him, and we can't come to Him unless He calls us first. Fact: We are responsible for our own actions, and will be judged accordingly. Fact: If God has appointed some for salvation and some for damnation, that's none of our business, He is God after all.Flesh that out how you will, because both a Calvinist and a Arminian could say that they agree with those statements, but the fact is, they would both more likely claim that they are wrong.Call that a pat answer or not, but my Bible tells me the the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" is the birthplace of all sin. I believe it was Karl Barth who stated (and seconded by Art Katz):The man who lives under the sign of the tree of life, cannot know of himself, that which he must know, and which has therefore to be told him (to be explained and interpreted to him). The reality of Devinely given life speaks for itself. The possibility of Devine likeness does not do so. It obviously does not commend itself. Man has to be told specifically and in fact is told that from that tree he must not eat. It's not an opinion. Not an evaluation he makes, he needs to be told, and to recieve the word that comes to him, from God, as being the statement of the Lord. This is the relationship that God has wanted to establish, from the first in the garden, that man is not to make his own independent assessments or determinations by the operation of his own mind, which is eating of the wrong tree, but that he recognises that there are things that he can not know.The reality is, most "pat answers" are an admission to the fact God has given no comprehensive answer to the question. The question that really should be asked is why we need to fill in gaps, that God has left open, with human logic that God refers to as "A way that seemeth right unto man..." (need I finish the verse)?In Him.

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sermonindex Apr 6, 2006

Dear freecd,I regret ever putting "Might your wires be slightly crossed?" in my first post. It was way too clever by far and completely unnecessary. Please accept my wholehearted apology?The other points which you raised in both your posts, I will address in my next post.

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IRONMAN Apr 6, 2006

bro Ryanelijahit seems to me (after an ivestigation into this matter on the thread 'Predestination and Free will" in this section) that we have a warped view of what it is to have free will. our perception of it is rooted heavily in the liberty which we hold so dear as americans and when we hold this up to the light of God, we see it's not as it appears. We can't do anything outside of what the Lord allows. God is SOVEREIGN in ALL things. nothing happens outside His will. so what we perceive to be free will is bound by His own, nothing happens outside of it. have you read Romans chapter 9? if the Lord leads read it and meditate on it. the bottom line of that is there are those which are vessels of mercy (and i am one) and those who are vessels of wrath. the mechanics of predestination are rather unwieldy (as i quickly discovered in that thread) but C.S. Spurgeon said that predestination and free will while they seem to be mutually exclusive are 2 lines which are parallel and don't meet on this side but meet before the throne of God. The Lord showed me that predestination is a mystery which can't be comprehended on this side but if one is a vessel of mercy, then one should conduct himself as such. the truth of predestination is that the Lord is SOVEREIGN IN ALL and to understand this doctrine in it's purest form is to acknowledge that God is in total control of all things. God knew what would happen when He created everything.EDIT TO ADD even in our salvation we don't come to God of our own volition but rather we must be called of God. from John chapt 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.now we are God's elect, by election (since we're a democracy) we know it means to be chosen. to be God's elect is to be chosen by God. i love God's sovereignty!!!if left to my own devices i'd be in hell. Thank God He had a different plan!we lose our way in this whole thing because:1) we are not used to hearing anyone speak about God's All-sovereignty so we think we operate independently of Him which we don't.2)we have a mind designed to grasp finite things yet God HImself is infinite and so we can't get a grip on Him that way, which is why we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth for God is Spirit and we must meet Him on that plane.Still, we have the ability to make our own decisions and that keeps god from knowing what will happen tomorrow or the day after. All of the scripture I have seen on this thread points to prophecy and thats it. God doesn't see prophecy in the future, he declares it will happen and brings it to pass. You guys need to provide a little more concrete evidence than propecy to show that god knows what is going to happen tomorrow.now tell me do you know what will happen tomorrow? probably not i imagine. i don't think anyone does unless God Himself reveals it or some demon does (there have been some people in scripture who see the future because of demons) at any rate God does (so does satan to some degree)let me be frank, i feel burdened of the Lord to tell you this. if the God you worship isn't sovereign in all, he is no God at all and is an idol of your own fashioning which needs to be cast away and this idolatry repented from because it is an abomination before the Most High God. REPENT BRO, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!

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MSeaman Apr 6, 2006

Ryan,I haven't had much chance to give this the time in deserves, in the light of your response to my post, I have another couple of questions for you.Do you think that God didn't forsee the rebellion of satan and the angels before it happened? Do you think that He is surprised by anything that happens on a daily basis? Do you not think that He already knows the outcome of this discussion even though it hasn't reached its end?I will be gathering the Scripture to answer your questions.

K

KingJimmy Apr 6, 2006

If God created time then before He created it, time could not exixst. This would be impossible because no duration could exist.The concept of time is the measurement of how long it takes to get between two points. Since God does not change ever, He cannot be measured, and therefore is outside of time. God simultaniously experiences the past, present, and future, all that the same time. If such seems a little difficult to conceive, imagine if you were examining a timeline on a single sheet of paper that spanned all of history. Such is what time is like for God. Time is not an attribute of God, for if time were an attribute of God, we would be saying God changes. Time is no more an attribute of God than the earth is an attribute of God. Both are His creation. If God exists "in time," then God is therefore a slave to time, and time therefore is something that contains God. But God cannot be contained by time.

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IRONMAN Apr 6, 2006

bro Prayerbonehi all,i guess running along side this question is if he knows the future why pray? there's vairous scripture that could imply that God does change is mind by are actions or prayers Jermiah being one 26:13well well well!!! bro prayerbone this is an excellent question! now God knows the future so why should we pray. we should pray to get involved in what the Lord is doing. what are some of the prayers we pray? we pray a lot but the vast majority of it is garbage, foolishness, not fit to be called prayer. the essence of prayer and indeed the thing which the Lord wants us to grasp is pure prayer and perfect prayer before Him is prayer which is according to HIS will and not our own. this sacrificing of our own will (which mind you is still goverened by His own, again the mechanics of this are unwieldy) is what is a pleasing aroma to Him in terms of prayer. This is why we have to pray according to the Holy Spirit of God because He KNOWS AND WILL PRAY ONLY THE WILL OF GOD. Youve no doubt heard it it said it is impossible to please God without the Holy Spirit and this is why. The Lord's Holy Spirit says and does only what He hears from Heaven and intercedes for us on that same basis, according to the will of God, so to follow the Lord's Holy Spirit is indeed to do the things which are perfect in God's sight. God's mind is not changed from one thing to another by our prayers. now let me qualify this. God is not strongarmed into doing anything. case in point, Terri Sachaivo had half or more of American beseeching the Lord to spare her and it didn't happen. When the devil went up to heaven to present his case to hurt job God said this to himfrom job chapt 2Job 2:1-6 1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy F12 him without cause. 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.now it would seem that God was hustled into letting satan have his way but the truth of the matter is that the Lord is displaying His sovereignty and manifold wisdom to the enemy and his minions by showing him that they have no power over job save for what God allows (this is again echoed when Christ told Pilate that he had no power over Him save for what was given him from heaven)God is not strongarmed into anything, nor can anyone convince Him He is wrong or is in need of repenting of any kind. There is the story of Hezekiah who was told he was going to die (i think it was by Jeremiah) and he wept and asked the Lord 10 more years and the Lord granted him this extension. during this time many reforms were made in an effort to bring the nation of israel back to God. now the Lord was going to do this anyway but He required Hezekiah to get involved in a deeper level in all this and so Hezekiah was compelled to seek the Lord. bro prayerbone we pray to get involved in what the Lord is working out. all this which is happenning, the building up of the Church and so on is all to display the Lord's manifold wisdom to the principalities and powers of the air to let them know that they have no power! we have to realize that this whole thing is far beyond just you and me but it is God showing Himself as He in fact is not only to us (if we will see) but to the powers of the air and to satan himself, God showing Himself to be ALL-SOVEREIGN.

M

MSeaman Apr 6, 2006

Although I haven't found a Scripture that says "I, The Lord of Heaven and Earth knew that when I made you humans, you would rebel against me," I have found some scripture that shows that He knows the heart and mind of man before the man himself.Psalm 139 (King James Version)1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2Thou knowest my down sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

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IRONMAN Apr 6, 2006

bro RyanelijahHi MSeaman. I would love to see some scripture that god knew man would rebel against him. That sounds schitzophrenic to me. No offense to you or god but why would he create us if he knew we would rebel against him. That makes no sense at all?while what you asked may seem schitzophrenic i sense not guile in you asking but that you're lookin for the truth. not sure you'll like the truth though. now i'm not aware of any scripture which specifically says that the Lord knew man would rebel but it seems obvious to me that He did because He already had a plan for salvation which had to do with the making of sacrifices until the ultimate sacrifice was made on the cross. God is God and does as He pleases whether we like and approve, or not and disapprove of His doings, this then speaks to the SOVEREIGNTY of God which we are so out of touch with. untill we grasp the Lord's sovereignty in all things we'll see things amiss.

S

sermonindex Apr 6, 2006

Hi ryan and prayerbone.Ironman made an excellent response here.well well well!!! bro prayerbone this is an excellent question! now God knows the future so why should we pray. we should pray to get involved in what the Lord is doing. what are some of the prayers we pray? we pray a lot but the vast majority of it is garbage, foolishness, not fit to be called prayer. the essence of prayer and indeed the thing which the Lord wants us to grasp is pure prayer and perfect prayer before Him is prayer which is according to HIS will and not our own. this sacrificing of our own will (which mind you is still goverened by His own, again the mechanics of this are unwieldy) is what is a pleasing aroma to Him in terms of prayer. This is why we have to pray according to the Holy Spirit of God because He KNOWS AND WILL PRAY ONLY THE WILL OF GOD. Youve no doubt heard it it said it is impossible to please God without the Holy Spirit and this is why. The Lord's Holy Spirit says and does only what He hears from Heaven and intercedes for us on that same basis, according to the will of God, so to follow the Lord's Holy Spirit is indeed to do the things which are perfect in God's sight. I have found it very helpful to pray aloud (when I'm alone), so that I have the extra input of what is going in through my ears... Why? Because I believe that part of why we have to pray, is so that we know what God's will is. So that we hear what we are asking Him (sometimes again and again), and start trimming our sails to catch the wind of His Spirit.

S

sermonindex Apr 7, 2006

The concept of time is the measurement of how long it takes to get between two points.I hope this was a joke.God is depicted in the Bible as One to whom time is real and essential. All of the time words are used to describe His actions in the same way as used for man. And the words for eternity have proven to be not of a timeless nature, but one of endless time. All of this is not to suggest that there are not some problems philosophically with the concept of unending time. The primary problem is how to conceive of a Being who had no beginning and yet for whom time is real.Time is a function of personality. It is the center of our thoughts, feelings, and volitions. Every thought, emotion, or choice elicits a new sequence. One thought follows another. One act succeeds another. Thoughts and actions move in successive order, one right after another. Therefore, time is intrinsic to personality. Often, time is defined as a structure that exists externally or outside of God. If time were extrinsic to God, we must object to His being a subject of it. However, any attribute that is intrinsic to the nature of God must not be viewed as a limitation. Because anything that is binding on God internally from His Being is simply by definition who He is and what He is like. For example, God cannot lie. Intrinsic to His nature is this character quality. This is a limit only in the sense that it is derived from within. It is not a limit in the sense of being controlled or deprived from without. Hence, time is an empowering attribute that serves God's love for creating new things.

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IRONMAN Apr 7, 2006

bro FreecdGod is depicted in the Bible as One to whom time is real and essential. All of the time words are used to describe His actions in the same way as used for man. And the words for eternity have proven to be not of a timeless nature, but one of endless time. All of this is not to suggest that there are not some problems philosophically with the concept of unending time. The primary problem is how to conceive of a Being who had no beginning and yet for whom time is real.time is real (it is His creation) to God but then again a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. this says to me it is under His total control, subject to Him. in the Spirit, past present and future are all before God. The fact that His workings in the past and in the present and future are written as you say in the same way as used for man, says all this was written for our benefit. since we can't comprehend life without/outside of time (eternity) the Lord made it so that His word was written with that in mind. like you said the problem is in trying to perceive a being who had no beginning and yet time is real to Him. Time is the Lord's creation and He is not subject to it, hence everything is in His own time. the finite mind can't grasp eternity because all we perceive to be real is finite. we will not understand that on this side and to try to seems futile to me. who knows the mind of God? :-?

K

KingJimmy Apr 7, 2006

If God is confined to time, then He has a beginning. But the Scriptures say, "In the beginning, God created..." Time did not exist before creation. Time is the measurement of how long it takes an object to get from point a to point b. Since God does not change, there are no measurements that could be done on God. God is immeasurable. To say that time is a virtue of God is to say God is measurable, and changes.

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sermonindex Apr 8, 2006

Hi freecd,I shall be applying myself to a proper reply to your posts, in a few hours. Meantime, I'd like you to look at Young's Literal Translation. I have not combed it for other examples, but I happen to remember this one, and would place it beside two other scriptures. In the first, you will see that the PROPHET is speaking in the past tense. Then, when the prophecy is coming pass, the account is being given in the present continuous. But in the KJV, which I will leave you to examine, the prophecy is given in the future tense.YLT 2 Kings 316 and he saith, `Thus said Jehovah, Make this valley ditches--ditches; 17 for thus said Jehovah, Ye do not see wind, nor do ye see rain, and that valley is full of water, and ye have drunk--ye, and your cattle, and your beasts. 18 `And this hath been light in the eyes of Jehovah, and he hath given Moab into your hand, 19 and ye have smitten every fenced city, and every choice city, and every good tree ye cause to fall, and all fountains of waters ye stop, and every good portion ye mar with stones.' 20 And it cometh to pass in the morning, at the ascending of the [morning] -present, that lo, waters are coming in from the way of Edom, and the land is filled with the waters, 21 and all Moab have heard that the kings have come up to fight against them, and they are called together, from every one girding on a girdle and upward, and they stand by the border. 22 And they rise early in the morning, and the sun hath shone on the waters, and the Moabites see, from over-against, the waters red as blood, 23 and say, `Blood this [is]; the kings have been surely destroyed, and they smite each his neighbour; and now for spoil, Moab!' 24 And they come in unto the camp of Israel, and the Israelites rise, and smite the Moabites, and they flee from their face; and they enter into Moab, so as to smite Moab, 25 and the cities they break down, and [on] every good portion they cast each his stone, and have filled it, and every fountain of water they stop, and every good tree they cause to fall--till one had left its stones in Kir-Haraseth, and the slingers go round and smite it. My second scripture is from Exodus 3 (YLT)11 And Moses saith unto God, `Who [am] I, that I go unto Pharaoh, and that I bring out the sons of Israel from Egypt?' 12 and He saith, `Because I am with thee, and this [is] to thee the sign that I have sent thee: in thy bringing out the people from Egypt--ye do serve God on this mount.' 13 And Moses saith unto God, `Lo, I am coming unto the sons of Israel, and have said to them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you, and they have said to me, What [is] His name? what do I say unto them?' 14 And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.' 15 And God saith again unto Moses, `Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel, Jehovah, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this [is] My name--to the age, and this My memorial, to generation--generation. 16 `Go, and thou hast gathered the elders of Israel, and hast said unto them: Jehovah, God of your fathers, hath appeareth unto me, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, I have certainly inspected you, and that which is done to you in Egypt; My last is from Ephesians 1, of course...3 Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, In a nutshell, 'time' is God's servant, to accomplish that which He designs for it. We perceive time as sequential, because of the limitations built into our experience by the type of creation which God has made us. But He Himself is always NOW. We may attribute to God, our own limitations, (that is, our sequential existence) but that in itself is no proof that God is like us in that respect. I will say more tomorrow.

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CJaKfOrEsT Apr 9, 2006

IRONMAN wrote:bro Prayerbone

hi all,i guess running along side this question is if he knows the future why pray? there's vairous scripture that could imply that God does change is mind by are actions or prayers Jermiah being one 26:13well well well!!! bro prayerbone this is an excellent question! now God knows the future so why should we pray. we should pray to get involved in what the Lord is doing.

To paraphrase Soren Kierkekaard "Prayer doesn't change things. Prayer changes men, and men change things."

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sermonindex Apr 9, 2006

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

IRONMAN wrote:
hi all,i guess running along side this question is if he knows the future why pray? there's vairous scripture that could imply that God does change is mind by are actions or prayers Jermiah being one 26:13xxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:I will never forget the words that were on a plaque, hanging on my Grandmothers bedroom wall that said: God is still on the Throne, and Prayer Changes Things.2 Kings 20:1 goes into great detail about King Hezekiah, who was near death, and prayed his way out of it. I will post it here:1. In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. 2. Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying, 3. I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. 4. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5. Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord. 6. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake. 7. And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered. 8. And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the Lord the third day? 9. And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees? 10. And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees. 11. And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the Lord: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXGod is a merciful God, that keeps every prayer that believers have ever prayed in Golden Jars (vials), in the Throne Room of Heaven:Revelation 5:8 " 8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxIn conclusion, God's word tells me that Prayer Does Indeed Change Things. Christ told us that if we had the faith of a mustard seed, we could say to that mountain move, and it would be cast into the sea.Our faith is in Christ. Our little faith, as small as a mustard seed is all that is needed. Our faith in the fact that He is who He says He is, and that He can do anything, anytime, anywhere.God Bless,SteverGolden Vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS

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sermonindex Apr 9, 2006

I hope no one gets upset but I am reposting Stever's response so everyone can read it.Stever's response:I will never forget the words that were on a plaque, hanging on my Grandmothers bedroom wall that said: God is still on the Throne, and Prayer Changes Things.2 Kings 20:1 goes into great detail about King Hezekiah, who was near death, and prayed his way out of it. I will post it here:1. In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. 2. Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying,3. I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. 4. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5. Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord. 6. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.7. And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered. 8. And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the Lord the third day? 9. And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees? 10. And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees. 11. And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the Lord: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXGod is a merciful God, that keeps every prayer that believers have ever prayed in Golden Jars (vials), in the Throne Room of Heaven:Revelation 5:8 " 8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxIn conclusion, God's word tells me that Prayer Does Indeed Change Things. Christ told us that if we had the faith of a mustard seed, we could say to that mountain move, and it would be cast into the sea.Our faith is in Christ. Our little faith, as small as a mustard seed is all that is needed. Our faith in the fact that He is who He says He is, and that He can do anything, anytime, anywhere.God Bless,

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sermonindex Apr 10, 2006

Hi freecd,Your philosophy of time is fascinating. However, you do make many assumptions, answering questions which are not being asked; not using either scripture or science to justify your view; and most of all... attributing a raft of human limitations to God, thereby.I have to admit that I can 'see' what you are saying and why, but, your conclusions are necessarily based on God's dealings with man, rather than His Uncreated pre-existence.You began by saying 'If God created time then before He created it, time could not exist.' but you have not explained why would this matter?Surely it is obvious that if we humans are living 'in time', then God has no alternative but to interact with us 'in time'. It is pure guesswork to say that He Himself IS time and it is unscientific at the least, to suggest that He is 'unending time', or time-without-a-beginning.You say God cannot 'control' time, yet one of the scientific facts that points to the existence of God, is that the universe is expanding steadily.... neither randomly nor excluding the theory of a 'big bang' beginning. I'd say this definitely suggests God controls time, and surely Einstein drew attention to the 'relative' aspect of time?You said: 'Every idea, thought or action of God must of necessity have some duration or interval of existence.' Again, this is a human statement... you are attributing to God, human limitations.'Each creation or thought of God must have these three basic truths. Every creation of God must take place within a series of events. It is impossible for any creation not to have these three truths.'Agreed. You are talking about creations - things that have been spoken into being out of nothing. This does not mean that God is tied to time by anything other than His sovreign choice. 'You can not seperate His power from Him anymore than you can seperate time from Him.' I may not be able to, but I believe He can.Once God thinks a certain thought He cannot somehow go back in succession. He can create something and then destroy it, but it did exist for some interval or duration. He can not travel back in time before he created it. No matter what God did He could never undo any of His actions or thoughts as though they never existed. God cannot think a thought and then unthink it. God can think a different thought and change His mind, but He can never go back in time or the series of events. God is very personal and active. He has made many choices and will continue to make many more. God has a free will. His thoughts are really his own creation. God is part of an endless and continuous sequence of thoughts, ideas and actions. Once God thinks a thought it becomes forever embedded in the essence of time.God has a free will. Can you find one scripture to confirm this?God has a will, yes, but, is it 'free' in the way which you meant by your statement?'His thoughts are really his own creation.' If this is true, then, having the mind of Christ ought to mean the same thing.... yes? But what do we find in Christ? We find a Man who only did and spoke what His Father showed Him. Can we define 'free will' in these terms?KingJimmy saidThe concept of time is the measurement of how long it takes to get between two points.to which you (freecd) replied, 'I hope this is a joke.' But this is a perfectly acceptable statement, within the confines of creation - which is where we are. There would be no 'time' or 'distance' if it were not for God having created light. Even this has to be viewed in the 'light' of Psalm 139: 12 Also darkness hideth not from Thee, And night as day shineth, as [is] darkness so [is] light.You said: ‘All of the time words are used to describe His actions in the same way as used for man.’ There are reasons for this which have nothing to do with our consciousness of sequence and duration. This is a very ‘left-brain’ way of seeing everything. There are many people (about a quarter of the population) who don’t think in such a linear construct. Maybe though, that doesn’t matter. Perhaps these differences all fall to the ground as long as we know Him?‘Time is a function of personality.’ I feel you are talking about consciousness and awareness, rather than 'time'.‘If time were extrinsic to God, we must object to His being a subject of it.’ Absolutely. Why should God be ‘subject’ to time, just because He is extrinsic to it? Cannot 'time' 'be subject' to Him, and remain extrinsic?Lastly,1 John 1:5This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (NKJV)James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (KJV)God is uncreated Light. We sing about this every Christmas. The created light within which we make all our actions and do all our thinking, is subject to all of His word. That's how when the Elisha prophesied, it came out in the past tense, even though the events had not yet happened on earth. Elisha was speaking what he heard from the eternal Spirit.

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IRONMAN Apr 10, 2006

Who's Stever? :-P The story of Hezekiah is a very interesting one which shows the Lord's mercy but shows also Hezekiah praying the will of God. praying the will of God gets us involved in what the Lord is doing. The Lord's plan was to indeed let Hezekiah live on until the reforms were done. Prayer is not a platform for us to strongarm, beg, compel or push God to do what He will not do or have our way but the way in which we must get involved in what the Lord is doing. This is why we have to pray in the Spirit because He only does what He hears from heaven. Any prayer which is outside of that can't be called a prayer at all, it makes the Lord out to be an errand-boy who is to do our bidding.

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IRONMAN Apr 10, 2006

sis Dorcasbless the Lord! this was some heavy stuff and i learned much! bless the Lord for the beauty of this fellowship!

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PreachParsly Apr 10, 2006

freecd,How do you interpret the phrase I have underlined?Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: Thanks.

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CJaKfOrEsT Apr 10, 2006

stever wrote:In conclusion, God's word tells me that Prayer Does Indeed Change Things. Christ told us that if we had the faith of a mustard seed, we could say to that mountain move, and it would be cast into the sea.Our faith is in Christ. Our little faith, as small as a mustard seed is all that is needed. Our faith in the fact that He is who He says He is, and that He can do anything, anytime, anywhere.If you read the quote again, you'd realise that it is not sop much the Omnipotence of God that is brought into question, but our understanding of God's ways. Consider James 4 where prayer isn't answered due to the lust of the "pray"er. Consider Jesus inability to heal in Nazareth (in spite of the disciples having success there - see the account of this in the Gospel of Mark).The point that I believe the quote was addressing was that it is our "faith in Christ" that brings the change, not the activity of prayer in itself. Through prayer, God alters the opinion of the "pray"er to His opinion, thereby installing faith to believe that the answer will come. Thus the answer truly comes by God's Soveriegn grace, but we are used in the process, through prayer, as a means of displaying His glory, so at least one person can testify that the answer came as a result of God's response to their petition.Notice that both the Calvanist and Arminian camps could accept this explanation in principle, but again the nature of the conflict and human tendancy to "choose sides" rather than "choose God" will cause both sides to tend to reject it. I hope that this will open the door a crack to this fact, but alas history tells me that it is unlikely.

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sermonindex Apr 11, 2006

I brought up an old thread calledIs 'everlasting' meaningfully different from 'eternal'? where Logic has now posted (p1) some interesting thoughts on how we might understand 'infinity' and 'eternal', though not with reference to the scripture quoted by philologos.https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6425&forum=36&5Picking up on the word 'eternal', here it is as I used it in my last post, with 'Spirit'.Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? This is important if we are to understand prophecy as being what us humans call the word of God spoken directly to us through one of His servants (whether it is for today or centuries hence).Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been [just] slain...John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world. Does God know the future?EDIT:(NKJV) Hebrews 1:1 - 3God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of [His] glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

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sermonindex Apr 11, 2006

I believe that the Bible tells us to pray for ourselves and others with Faith- Faith that whatever we are praying for will be answered by the God that we pray to. The God that has the power to do anything. The God that spoke everything into existence out of nothing. The God who heals the sick, and blesses those that he chooses with unmerited favor.I will never forget the evening that my wife and I went to a Church because they were calling a special time of prayer for a missionary that had returned from the mission field with cancer of the pancreas. The entire event reminded me of Christ when he returned to his home town, and because of the non-belief he found there, hardly anyone was healed. All of the members of this faithless body gathered together, several even layed hands on him, and the prayers had no belief, no conviction of the power and majesty of who they were praying to. The prayer for his healing was ended with a sad “if it be your will, Oh Lord”. I really believe the prayers never left the ceiling of the Church Sanctuary that evening. How sad this event really was. As believers we are commanded to pray for the sick. How on earth can we do that if we do not pray with faith?As Christians we are called to do this, to earnestly pray in the Name of Jesus Christ. Gods Word gives us the understanding that God has the power to do anything, at anytime. Our total faith is in Him. If we pray for healing, then we know in our hearts that He alone has the power to heal and to restore. If the person we are praying for ends up not being healed in his/her physical body and ends up passing on-- then we know that they are with the Lord and are in total health and total happiness and total peace. “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”.Does God use sickness and disease to draw people to Himself? Does God use all circumstances to draw people to Himself? I believe He does. In fact, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose”Throughout the New Testament we find statements of the tremendous miracles He performed:“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. 24. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. 25. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.”xxxxxxxxxxxAs believers in Jesus Christ we are required to have faith. What kind of faith—giant faith, or little faith? We are only required to have the faith of a mustard seed (the littlest of seeds). But, our little faith is focused on Him who can do anything.Mark 16:15-20 reminds us of our commission:“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”When we pray, let us pray with all of our hearts that the person we are praying for will be healed, in the Name of Jesus. That is our commission. God is the one that will do all of the restoration. If the person is not healed, then it does not reflect upon us, or our prayers, but on God's soverign will and majesty. God bless,Stever

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rojam Apr 12, 2006

PreachParsly recently asked freecd the following question. - How do you interpret the phrase I have underlined?- Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, - and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, - and the sea, and the things whice are therein, that there should be time no longer: I hope no one minds if I jump in to answer, as it does pertain to what I was about to post on this subject. I am not one for entering into a theological discussion lightly. My experience has shown that in most cases they tend to produce a lot more heat than light.Starting with verse 5, the RSV renders this passage, “And the angel whom I saw standing on sea and land lifted up his right hand to heaven and swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there should be no more delay.” NKJV - “there should be delay no longer,” ASV - “there shall be delay no longer.” BBE - “there would be no more waiting.” ESV - “there would be no more delay.” Let me make a couple of points here. If there ever would be a occasion that time would be eliminated, it is unlikely that an angel would be the one to declare it. If the passage does mark the declaration where time would be done away, why does time continue after the declaration is made? We still have not seen the thousand year reign of Christ. From my reading on this passage, most scholars agree that this passage is the answer to the question posed in Re. 6:10, “And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” That would be my interpretation, for what it’s worth.I think it is fare for everyone to know that while I believe God is omniscient, I don’t believe that means that He must posses all absolute knowledge of future decisions made by moral beings. I believe that means He knows everything that is knowable, or can be known. That is not to say that God could not have created a universe where He did have absolute knowledge of all future events and choices. He simply does not appear to have done so.We all approach this discussion with certain presuppositions. I have one that I think is critical. I believe that no one is better qualified to describe what God is like, than God Himself. Therefore, if God says something, I think we should think long and hard before we conclude that He didn’t mean what he said. With that thought in mind, I would like to pose three questions.1) Where does the bible say that God has absolute knowledge of the future?2) Where does the bible say that God dwells outside of time?3) Does the bible ever say that time was created, or does it ever state that time has an end or a beginning?Just reading over my reply, it sounds a little terse. I don't mean to come across that way, my hope is that we can shed some light on a very hotly debated subject.God Bless.

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sermonindex Apr 12, 2006

Hi rojam,Your caution is appreciated, and also, the desire to adhere to scripture. In general, I think the apparent discrepancies between what may be going on in God's eternal realm, and our temporal realm, especially since we spend all of our time here.... make is easier for us to use human terminology and experience to try to describe God's terms of reference. I'd like to pick your second question:"2) Where does the bible say that God dwells outside of time?"Please could you read another thread (very short - only five posts) in this forum, called "Is 'everlasting' meaningfully different from 'eternal'?" - where Logic has now posted some helpful thoughts on how we should understand the difference between 'infinity' and 'eternal', though he does not refer to the scripture quoted by philologos. He draws out a definition of time, which helps us to think clearly. (The thread is linked from my post on the previous screen page.) Once one takes scripture references to 'eternity' and 'eternal' into account, and scripture I've already quoted in this discussion, it is difficult to explain the phenomenon of prophecy, without attributing to God considerably more foreknowledge than you suggest.

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sermonindex Apr 12, 2006

Hi rojam,Your caution is appreciated, and also, the desire to adhere to scripture. In general, I think the apparent discrepancies between what may be going on in God's eternal realm, and our temporal realm, especially since we spend all of our time here.... make is easier for us to use human terminology and experience to try to describe God's terms of reference. I'd like to pick your second question:"2) Where does the bible say that God dwells outside of time?"Please could you read another thread (very short - only five posts) in this forum, called "Is 'everlasting' meaningfully different from 'eternal'?" - where Logic has now posted some helpful thoughts on how we should understand the difference between 'infinity' and 'eternal', though he does not refer to the scripture quoted by philologos. He draws out a definition of time, which helps us to think clearly. (The thread is linked from my post on the previous screen page.) Once one takes scripture references to 'eternity' and 'eternal' into account, and scripture I've already quoted in this discussion, it is difficult to explain the phenomenon of prophecy, without attributing to God considerably more foreknowledge than you suggest.

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rojam Apr 13, 2006

Hi dorcas,I appreciate your reply.I'm not sure which verse or verses you were referring too, but I did not see a verse that referred to God dwelling outside of time. I understand the tendancy to interpret the word “eternal” as timeless eternity, but I don’t see the scripture describing that at all. If you look at all the words in both Greek and Hebrew that are translated eternity, or eternal, you will find that they all, for the most part, mean unending time.I have to confess, Logics post was very well stated. I’m certain that I could never compete with him on that level of eloquence, but to date, every verse that I have seen that is used to support God dwelling outside of time assumes that eternity means outside of time. The Greek and Hebrew simply doesn’t support this. For example, philologos mentioned the Greek word “aionios” which means without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be, never to cease, everlasting. It is closely related to the word “aion” which means age (a span of time, like ice age, or iron age, etc.). The Hebrew word, “ad,” means unending time, or perpetuity. “Qedem” (Heb) means ancient, “olam” (Heb) or “alam” (Aramaic) means continuous existence or perpetual. All of these words assume time.For example, Isa 57:15 read, “ For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.” The word eternity is “ad,” so this is not saying that God is timeless and lives outside time, it is saying, “...thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits unending time.”Oscar Cullmann did a great treatment on this subject in his book, Christ and Time. In it, he explains that the concept of a timeless eternity is a Greek or Platonic concept, rather than a Biblical one. This is not surprising when you the consider that the Greeks were almost Borg like when it came to assimilating other societies (an association that will only make since to Star Trek TNG fans I suppose). They took what was in the new society and mixed it together with what they had, and what they taken from other societies.One of my favorite authors on this subject is Gordon Olson. He puts it this way, “God lives in a duration.” I think the word duration is a good definition of what we mean by time. With out duration, it is impossible to have succession, and succession is necessary for anything to happen, even for God. There has to be a “before the world was made,” and an “after the world was made.” If there isn’t, then just like God, the world has always been, and He never really created it.I should probably leave it at this for now. My daughter has a friend over, and they are waiting for me to cook dinner. Why don’t you chew on this for a while, I look forward to your response.God bless,rojam

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BeYeDoers Apr 14, 2006

I'm going to repeat this...and then probably not say any more on this subject, unless someone asks specifically. Time is a function of mass and velocity. It is relative. God is not relative. Time did not exist until Gen. 1:1. We could not have been chosen from the foundation of the world if God did not know the future. If God and time are running parallel, how do you explain prophecy? How do you explain the cross? The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. He entered time in order to relate to us. God is in total and complete control of time, and therefore MUST work outside of it. We are walking on very thin ice if we question God's knowing of the future or his dominion over time. I'm not trying to pass judgment on anyone. I'm sincerely watching out for my fellow sheep. It's dangerous. I think this thread has been good in many different aspects, but I think some of the implications out there have not been. To read more about this topic, check out http://www.carm.org/open.htmblessings