Fruit Inspections

"Ole people" repeat themselves 8-) .First answer ... "The Mix"Second answer ... THE WORD ~Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock. Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Signs and wonders was what Jesus warned about the most in the Last Days ... besides false teachings and prophecies. I don't listen to anyone who has "a word" for me. Been there - done that and 3 months later found out he was Jesus Only.In order to know the "character of Christ", one must get that from the Gospel Accounts Alone.Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ" ... so Paul is our instructor for any "ways or means" of how HIS character is acted out in a Follower/Servant.I posted Mattew 7 because we cannot pull verses and get wisdom. That was 'one' discourse of JESUS, that actually started in Chpt. 5.Pulling verses is how we come up with the junk we have and our "paramount fascinations".God Bless

The fruit man, Paul. Ha, I once saw a made up "resume" for the purpose of applying for the Pastorate at any Church seeking a Pastor.I wish I could find that thing. It was an outline of Paul's life in general ... and nobody would hire him if he paid them the salary. Ha.We were talking about Paul and Barnabas "getting into it" over John Mark.Too many folks blame Paul (Isn't that the easier way ? ha) but it was Barnabas' mistake, because John Mark 'bailed' on them in Paphos and went back to Jerusalem. Wanna see why ? Act 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister. Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: Act 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. Act 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Act 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? Act 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. Act 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord. Act 13:13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. Paul, the writer of Gal.5 - displayed his "fruit" by blinding a guy by the authority of the LORD. No wonder John Mark split and none of those Churches who read that resume would hire him. :-? Then just a bit before the fruit chpt., he rebukes SAINT PETER (ah oh) in front of everybody. And that's just the half of it, for Paul's doings. Then after ALL of it, he has the nerve to write 1Corth.13. They'd have called him a phony bologna for sure in today's church."Da man", just had no character whatsoever. :-?

You underlined "who" and the LORD told us "who".G5578ψευδοπροφήτηςpseudoprophētēspsyoo-dop-rof-ay'-taceFrom G5571 and G4396; a spurious prophet, that is, pretended foreteller or religious impostor: - false prophet.More questions ... "Who" are the dogs and swine ?How does one determine or discern who is a dog or swine and what do we do with dogs and swine, besides "throw them out".But how do you know if they are a "dog or swine" or "of us" ?Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

With the "dogs and swine" verses ... I had meant to put a QUESTION mark after that sentence you quoted and for a very pulling reason. Because we who say we don't "judge", are all but daily labeling, here, there, or elsewhere, who we choose to talk to, etc..I don't particularly care for the Alpha course method of getting to a point, and was questioned myself for starting a thread with a question also.It's like - let's just get right to the point and like Paul would - he didn't have time to sit around with folks and ask endless questions to get at an answer or just like the Alpha Course, go on and on with "opinions" and not THE WORD but tongues-sticking-out icons only in almost all of our posts, mocking in essence the others.I think everywhere here on this board and in the churches - everywhere - we need to get down to brass tacks because obviously this method isn't working and whether people choose to believe it or not - Time Is getting short and too short for games and pussy-footing around.We can't even judge our own hearts. If Any one thinks that they "know" their own heart, they are totally deluded. That's the worse case of delusion that comes just before the Grand one.Yet, that swine and dog verse was in the same discourse of Jesus', as was this thread topic of "discerning fruit of prophets or teachers".Mike went on to - how do we apply this to those who aren't "them" ?Well, there ya go ---- who do you decide are pigs and dogs - because that decision is made just on this one site enough by each person --- whether it's here on board or at work - Wherever.Yes Diane .... I've been scalded in boiling water by folks .... but I will not call them pigs or dogs .... I pray they will see what on earth that they are doing and come to a knowledge of truth just as I pray to be not found wanting when I see Him for myself ... but it is not for me to call them pigs or dogs.Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Notice that this pig/dog verse is Jesus' next breath. He's saying no motes and beams for "fault finding in nit-picky things" BUT when it comes to those things which are HOLY and Represent the teaching of The Kingdom (which pearls represent), don't waste your time with those who should know better, once the "discernment" is given you, what they are about and that they truly don't Want Truth, in it's fullest sense.Discernment is the bottomline here - because WE CANNOT JUDGE A MAN'S HEART - but the Lord will reveal unto His Elect "what" we're dealing with, with certain folks.The pigs and dogs has Nothing to do with sharing our heart and then being backstabbed or "gossiped" about. That is Not what that verse is talking about.It's 'NOT ABOUT US' at all ... actually NONE of it is - when we're talking about what this thread is intended for ... it's TRUTH AGAINST NON-TRUTH in the final analysis and CANNOT be for or be led in ANY other direction --- because 'Truth' is the issue, now and Forever. Boil it down friend ! See where this thread is going ???You're a sharp cookie ... but keep the focal point that it has to be - nothing of "us" ... our reputation, our opinions, Nothing matters a feather's weight in the Kingdom ... Only that which is Spirit and Truth is on the Line Now.HIS GLORY - not our opinions or feelings or reputations, etc. etc. etc..HE "IS" THE TRUTH. And that's the BATTLE OF THE AGES. LIES AGAINST TRUTH. "FLESH" AGAINST SPIRIT. The battle since Cain rages on until the end or our end with the "beheadings" of Revelation.HIS TRUTH. That's what dogs and swine hate and that's how you can tell. When they are "fed" --- how do they eat ???Dogs and swine eat about the same. They don't eat like the real McCoy -- The Sheep.Yes, you're right ... at that point you do brush the sand off your feet ... 'IF' God tells you go.All 'discernment' even, has to be "tested" to be sure it isn't our deceitful/flesh/heart.If we're willing to have our "heart's" broken for the TRUTH'S sake, then we're getting on the right track with all of this.But let's just say what we mean and mean what we say and be sure we know that what we are saying is divinely inspired somehow - else our enemies destroy "truth" in the eyes of those desirous of it, by the demonic scheme of killing the messenger ... as what this dog/swine thing is really focusing on. It's not about "us", it's about the Holy things and Pearl things of God in Christ .... whether it be about "false prophets and teachers or dogs and swine" .... it's TRUTH AGAINST the LIES always ..... Until He Comes.

Diane said ~ "Of course we must inspect., or else how will we know them?"Yes, that is BY 'THE WORD OF GOD' and "discernment" is by The Spirit, as I posted above.We cannot know what a man is "in his heart or in secret places -- where his wife may not even know about" .... but that is where "discernment" that ONLY GOD can give comes in.BUT - going back to your quote above ... YES, where it comes to false teacher's and prophet's "TEACHINGS OR WORDS" ... THIS is where we are to INSPECT 'BY' HIS WORD.And the only way to know how to Inspect ... as in --- "a fruit "inspector" goes to "training" on "how" to 'inspect' the "fruit of Teachings or Prophecies"" ..... is by "Studying" to show thyself APPROVED UNTO "GOD", a WORK-MAN that needeth not to be ashamed, ]rightly dividing the Word of Truth. If a man is "obviously" a sinner, than what is there to inspect ??? So this is not about "THE OBVIOUS" as in - "is he demonstrating to us love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. IF - IF - IF - that were the case, then all of us are Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves .......... because, find for me ONE MAN OR WOMAN who can have that fruit Inspected by all and not be found wanting. See ???This is NOT about the fruit of The Spirit of Gal. 5 and that SHOULD be obvious or none of us could ever open our Mouths or keyboards again.Jesus was WARNING us here of something far more Dangerous and subtle and hard to uncover, IF you combine this verse with 'all others' about the Last Days False Prophets AND Teachers.IF it were possible - even the Elect would be deceived .... so let's see JESUS' WORDS here and not make this "fruit" a lesser "fruit" than what HE Meant. Whether it be these heretics - false teachers/prophets, who may display the Gal 5 fruit in the flesh, just as New Agers do ... but are those "righteous ministers of Christ" that are actually from Satan himself ..... or if we're looking at who are dogs and swine ..... we're right back again to IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.The SPIRIT 'discerns' the 'hidden nature' of the beast and 'THE TRUTH/HIS WORD' discerns if he/she is IN Truth.

Diane, you know that you are more than welcomed, by me, to challenge anything I write.roadsign wrote:MeAgain, you have lots of good points. There is one I would like to challenge:

The pigs and dogs has Nothing to do with sharing our heart and then being backstabbed or "gossiped" about. That is Not what that verse is talking about.Christ said that whatever others do to us, they do to him. We ARE Christ's living letters. We are not separate from his truth. When we share from our heart, we are sharing from a part of us that Christ is united with. We carry his truth as part of us. We identify with him, in suffering and rejection when the swine trample on us - or rather, our words. Now, I admit, some people get trampled on because they are just being obnoxious, overzealous, "evangelists" trying to push God on everybody. (another topic)Here again, is a need for fruit inspection. Not all who are zealous for God are fruit-bearers. Diane

Mike, what you've done here is unfair scholarship.You've taken one sentence of mine and blew my 3 posts on page two totally beyond recognition.I am surprised at this. And NO USE OF THE WORD to back up a single thing you've said here.You are depending on your own intellect and not seeking God on these issues, as your answer lacks all things spiritual.Basically, discernment is in Webster's, if you have a problem with it ... and all things pertaining to Godliness MUST consist of Spirit and Truth and if not, they are the wood, hay and stubble of 1 Corth 3.Also Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. Jam 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. You didn't lack "courage" when you were in that other Church, you lacked "wisdom" or "discernment".Wisdom is the knowing 'how' to use "Knowledge".Your post is full of awful ungodly New Age "extra-sensory" mumbo-jumbo spiritism and it's disgusting to lean on what you've written and use my quote to write such a blasphemous pile of fear tactics against Spirit and Truth."I'M" not offended, it's what you've done to the WORD OF GOD, with your "natural instincts" towards spiritual things.Consider for a second the obvious... If God’s word is continually on a man’s lips, do we need to “discern” he is speaking God’s word? No! It becomes evident. All other claims of a prophet outside of his own character are vanity.Then you've never sat under a Wolf in Sheep's clothing Mike.2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. I had a very docile-gentile brother from Australia who's hardest word he's ever said to anyone is "What a pile of tripe". With whatever respect is due here Mike, I must say what you've done to the things of God here is beyond what I thought was capable here. I knew something was coming in response to my 3 posts on page 2, but never to the gravity of what you've just done. May God forgive you and open your "spiritual" eyes to see what days we are living in and if our dependence is not 100% on Spirit and in Truth .... if you leave off the "Spirit" of God from this equation, you are headed for the worst deception that has ever hit this planet.MOST will fall away during these days, because they hadn't enough "oil" in their lamps and if you have "followers" that read your post, you will stand before HIM with their blood on your hands if they are deceived because of the awful thing you have done to mix Satan's witchcraft in with the true Discernment that the Sheep are given by "Knowing His Voice and Following".To bring in the occult and ESP etc. etc. and post it under my one sentence is the worse injustice I've seen here as yet.This is a shame for you and again I am not the one offended ... Truth is thrown in the Streets as the Word says, I just didn't quite figure it would be by you.If a man nourishes the weak and takes an honest rod to the stubborn do we need discernment to see he has a shepherds heart? No. The Word is already become flesh! All other claims to assume a position other then that of a submissive heart are vanity!This is more nonsense. The Mormons do this.Where are you getting this stuff ?Certainly, there may be imposters disguised in our midst. But Jesus promised in due time their own character will undress them. There is no need for anxious fretting or supernatural power to detect the truth…the only spiritual equipment that can faithfully test others is the very character of Christ in us. Otherwise we are just beasts biting and devouring each other with our spiritualized egos.No Jesus said in the verse we've been discussing """Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."""How long do you wait before you know "what" He was talking about here ???It is NOT ALL IN "CHARACTER" ... my God - don't you see those verses above from 2 corth 11 ?Herbert Armstrong had "character" ... What about the Bible quoter of them all ... Jim Jones ?The Lord said, Lean NOT on your own understanding, in ALL your ways acknowledge HIM and HE will direct your paths.He said, HE has given the gifts for our own building up and obviously for our Protection against these false prophets and teachers that He warned us will multiply daily in these days.I said repeatedly on page two, In Spirit and In Truth, which is gleaned from His WORD.Paul said, that he had "NO confidence in the flesh" ... you've put MOST of your confidence in your own reasonings, etc. in your post.Where is The Holy Spirit in your post ?Are you a cesstationist ? If you are I could understand your fears of the "super-natural" in the negative sense, but don't use my quote to spring board into such phobias and accusations.You rob others who are going to need Spirit and Truth to get through the days ahead that JESUS warned, "Do Not be deceived" and we are not protected from deception by the flesh."Special Ability" my foot. 1 Corth 12 is in your Bible, isn't it ?You messed up with your false church, but don't lay that lack of discernment on us too bro.This was wrong Mike and I would appreciate you keep my post out of yours, as you've done nothing but mix God's gifts with putrifying "WITCHCRAFT". That borders on a word I dare not say.I received no "blessings" from your post this time at all Mike. It's made my spirit grieve for what you've done.Character without Discernment and utter dependence on the Holy Spirit to guide and protect is just a nice guy who's going to get nailed by something out there sooner or later.Sad.

The verses in question -~~~ Remembering that when these verses were "spoken", these words were one discourse ... and when "written" ... there were no division of Chpt.s - Verses - or even punctuations.Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. ~~~ Self-explanatory here with 1-5. Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. ~~~ This is a BUT added to the first five verses. There must be a "discernment" given from God and His Word to "know" WHO is a dog or swine.Truth is trampled by them and the messenger is torn apart so that the Truth cannot stand and be received by others. An attempt is made to destroy both the truth and disgrace the messenger to hinder the message. BUT HOW is this "discernment" gotten ? Answered in next verses. Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? ~~~ In Luke these same verses above pertain to the giving of The Holy Spirit.Where "discernment", empowering, Etc., is gotten.If we in humble 'dependence' take the time to "ask" for wisdom also, he "unbraideth not". If we jump ahead of "asking" , we ere.Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. ~~~ In the middle, we have LOVE, as always, if you watch things in Context throughout the O.T. and New. "For this is the fulfillment of all the law and the prophets" as it is versed elsewhere.Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. ~~~ How is our entry into the Strait Gate tied into "Love" ? There's about 200 verses on "Love" in the New Testament, that when read together say, we will not stay saved if we do not Love.If we LOVE Him, we will obey His commandments to Love and if we Love, we will not want to sin against Him. Easy to understand ... far from "legalism", isn't it ?Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ~~~ These should be lumped together. The wheat and the tares here. The sheep and the goats. Or the sheep and the wolves.Their "fruits" are not singular, as in the "fruit" of Gal. 5. These "fruits" are manifestations that can only be discerned through Spirit and Truth/HIS WORD. The warning is to "observe" (beware) before you pour out too 'freely', the deeper things of God or commit yourself to others.Notice these are "signs and wonders" folk too... that HE never knew.These are also those like the false prophets above that "deceive" by any means possible. They lure in by those means.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock. Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. ~~~ Whoever basis his walk on the WORD of God and hides it in his heart AND "Walks in the Spirit" and not the Flesh, will be saved. That is Jesus' Doctrine.DECEIVED AND DECEIVE ~ Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perditionRev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever 1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Compton, I thought this was very lucid, and made me understand your last post, better. (Bolds, mine.)'To illustrate the point here is an analogy:I was born an apple tree standing in an orchard. The problem is that the owner of the orchard I was standing in wanted orange trees instead. When I heard about the masters desire for oranges I became anxious to please him but how can an apple tree grow oranges? I can spray-paint my fruit to look orange but when the insides are tasted the truth comes out. And merely wanting to be an orange tree does not change the fact that I am still an apple tree! What does a sincere apple tree do? To make matters worse, the world market adores my red delicous apples. Indeed, because of my wonderful red apples, many buyers and sellers are visiting the master’s orchard. Isn’t this a good reason for the master to consider growing apples as well as oranges? Yet, the master will not relent…he insists on having only orange trees in his fields.And so, I say goodbye to the buyers and sellers, and watch as the owner of the orchard takes his axe to my roots. This Apple Tree must be cut down and burned and in my place an Orange Tree must be planted. I could not produce oranges…Only a real orange tree can do that, and only the the master can plant his seeds. Now an orange tree stands where an apple tree once was rooted. This is the difference between the false and the real. ”I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” This is not merely a reformation positional creed, but a daily working out in our character. Zeal, passion, intellect, persuasiveness, even some moral conduct…all these prized qualities can be faked or perhaps fueled by the hope of worldly rewards. They can be spray-painted on! But Jesus said to Peter When thou were younger, thou didst clothe thyself and didst walk where thou wouldst.(the apple tree...) But when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee and lead thee whither thou wouldst not.(The orange tree..)'

Hi Diane,Picking up on Annie's point about 'fruits', I did a quick search, and found a few verses which may help to steer our thinking.... not that you don't make a good point about the necessity of the fruit of the Spirit, and as Compton says, unless that means more than gifts, it will not show up in testing circumstances.James 1:18 (These are all from the KJV)Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:Matthew 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.Philipp 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. Revelation 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Psalms 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. Psalms 52:8 But I [am] like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever. Psalms 92:12The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Proverbs 11:30The fruit of the righteous [is] a tree of life; and he that winneth souls [is] wise.Proverbs 13:12Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but [when] the desire cometh, [it is] a tree of life. Proverbs 15:4A wholesome tongue [is] a tree of life: but perverseness therein [is] a breach in the spirit. Ecclesiast. 2:5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all [kind of] fruits Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Annie,For a long time, I've been under the impression that there was a (?Greek) philosophical significance to the terms 'dog' and 'pig', and wonder if you know whether they were associated with specific schools of thought, before Christ? In a very interesting conversation in the US, I learned there is a lot more in the New Testament which directly addresses Greek philosophy than has ever been brought to my attention by preachers. In another thread, something was said about the 'Alpha' and the 'Omega' as a beginning and ending, (a measurable concept), but I believe the reason they are linked in symbol, is they represent the same point on a circle (or contiguous points)..... therefore being nothing to do with a beginning and ending, but rather, the unbeginning and unending qualities of God.But, we have Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. Zeke,I think there is a 'greed' (pig) factor in Peter's exposition, apart from the bringing on of heresy and the returning to a life of sin (or being led back into a life of sin). Like pigs, dogs appear to eat anything.... But there is also another connotation, which fits in with Peter's exposition above. In Alexander Hislop's 'The Two Babylons', he says the word cannibal is derived from the phrase 'priest of Baal'. (This can be found in good (and old) enough dictionaries - the eating of a (human) sacrifice by the priest.) Diane, I thought your point about non-believers being able to judge the meaning of a person's actions, sometimes more easily than a believer, is true. I laboured under an unwillingness to label sin (both in myself and others) because I thought it wasn't 'Christian' to 'name' such things. It is just as well God had His hand on other aspects of my thinking, though, because I was also praying He would do whatever work was necessary for me to be able to trust myself (which I think Compton touched on fleetingly) and that He would deliver me from myself. Paradoxically, I'm sure both are necessary!

Here are a few more verses to think about.2 Kings 9:35 And they went to bury her: but they found no more of her than the skull, and the feet, and the palms of [her] hands. 36 Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This [is] the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:So apart from the love of excess, sensuality and money, (pig personality) there is also a religious side to the 'dog'. Could this be a reference to pagan infiltrators who were appearing to worship with believers, but were doing other things too? (See Ezekiel 8, for 'other things' which appear religious, and Leviticus 18, for other idolatrous practices.)Exodus 22:31And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat [any] flesh [that is] torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs. Deuteronomy 23:18Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God. Revelation 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Mark 7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] unto the dogs. 28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. Philipp 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. Just to look at 'evil workers'..... sounds like the opposite of those who 'work righteousness'.....Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. Questions: Who is 'free' enough from their own (flesh) difficulties to address those who are carnal in the church?1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; Where do the gifts of the Spirit fit into Peter's solution?

crsschk,This is good:אל תשליכו הפנינים לפני החזירים, "do not cast pearls before swine", nor deliver wisdom to him, who knows not the excellency of it; for wisdom is better than pearls, and he that does not seek after it, is worse than a swine.''

HA, this is funny.I posted, "we can't even judge ourselves" or our OWN HEARTS - or at least that Book we all have a copy of says so. I said, we 'can't' depend on "ourselves" to "discern" but must depend wholly on That Book and The HOLY Spirit.I said, for the false prophets in Matthew 7, it says "Fruits" - Plural .... and combined with all the other verses Jesus gave, about these same FALSE PROPHETS --- it is Obvious it has Nothing to do with "the Obvious" -- such as the Gal. "Fruit" ... as we Should see, just in 2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. And asked... by viewing these verses above here ... how do YOU DISCERN THESE ??? HAAA !!!In pretty much every post I stressed - WE CAN'T LEAN ON OURSELVES .... doesn't the Bible say that somewheres ?Yet, here we have so many queries --- so many opinions --- so many tirades (musical term) --- so many declarations without the Book.Such "wisdom" without the BOOK.I just don't think Paul would know what to do with all of this.To look at THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT again ... one would not look on this forum ... one would need to look at Jesus or Paul. And if you know The LORD's Nature and Paul's "character" and/or "behavior" ... than you know "THE FRUIT" of Galatians. "THE FRUIT" singular - is the very IMAGE OF CHRIST !!!Remembering that JESUS - as in "Who is JESUS ?"? - is the same GOD of the Old Testament ... THE SAME GOD. Not a whimpy re-make as some are portraying HIM as.In "that" thread ... I posted "HAVE WE CHANGED THE IMAGE OF JESUS ?" and that if we have a wrong "Christology" than EVERYTHING else will be off.That is what I see is the problem here.Thank God He chose Paul to do the job to be able to say, "Follow me as I follow Christ".Eee-iii-eee-iii-ooo. Tongues now ... haaaa.Ya'll can "inspect" or keep "inspecting" as you all keep saying that word (and keep on inspecting everyone that comes on this forum and forming your "take" on them :) despite that that word "inspect" isn't even in THE WORD ... but I think it would be wise in lue of what days we are living in, to read what Jesus and Paul and Jude and Peter really meant by all these that are entering the church as ravenous wolves seeking to Destroy & Rob the Truth and DECEIVE the church away from JUST 'HIS' WORD.

Oops and I forgot ... in the last days even the MORE SO ... we do not deal with just flesh and blood but with demonic counterfeits like never before in man's history.Try "inspecting" them by their "fruit" from Gal 5.Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Hoy Vey !!!

The Beauty of Scripture --- One verse or Chapter leads to another and then another and then another Forever ....1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to naught: 1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. And so on it goes and so on Forever ....

Had appealed for a slowing down... This is supposed to be a discussion. If it isn't profitable to you and you have nothing to add except hostilities, please beg off. This thread has been hi-jacked, but that seems to be of little concern to the others here.Stop with the agendas and pronouncements, if it's too simple, or if everyone is decieved and that is your opinion, keep it to yourself ... My goodness, even the discussion itself is revealing much that isn't even being noticed.Find your own self in this, I am not about to do it...Mike, I came on this afternoon to many posts and did my best to reply and now you are judging me.It struck me as "funny" because there were so many - I DIDN'T KNOW WHICH TO ANSWER ... can't you see that ?Can't you see where I am trying to answer the "Beware" and "how do we beware ?" by my posts ?Sad that you would see my attempt to answer some of them the way you just have.1 Corth 2 tells us HOW to "discern" spiritual things - THAT is why I posted that and 1 Co. 4.And to reply to the "beware" question that you started, I had to look up Scriptures.And now the definition of "beware" because that is the Word The Lord used and NOT INSPECT ... in that "that" would imply "self" examining without the Spirit and the Word, which is why I posted 1 Corth 2 and 4.Yet you turn this around to a 'me' thing again and with "hostilities" in these posts on page 4 ?Anyhow, definition of your word "beware" - that this thread started with ....BEWARE ~ 4337. prosevcw proseŒchoµ; fut. proseŒxoµ, from proŒs (4314), to, and eŒchoµ (2192), to have. To have in addition, to hold the mind or the ear toward someone (Sept.:Jer 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward ): , to pay attention. As a nautical term, it means to hold a ship in a direction, to sail towards. Intrans. it means to hold on one’s course toward a place.[addition: what and Who is our "Compass" ?] In the NT used only figuratively.(I) Used in an absolute sense (with toŒn nouŒn [3563], the mind, implied), to apply one’s mind to something, attend to, give heed to, and used as follows:(A) Generally and with the dat. of person or thing spoken (Acts 8:6; Heb. 2:1; 2 Pet. 1:19; Sept.: Deut. 1:45; Ps. 141:1). In the sense of to yield assent, believe, embrace (Acts 16:14; 1 Tim. 1:4; Titus 1:14). With the dat. of person, meaning to care for, watch over (Acts 20:28).(B) Reflexive use with the dat. heautoµ (1438), unto oneself, meaning to take heed, beware, mostly in the imper. (Luke 17:3; Acts 5:35); with heautoéŒs (pl. of heautoµ), to yourselves, followed by apoŒ (575), from (Luke 12:1; Sept.: 2 Chr. 35:21); by meµpote (3379), lest (Luke 21:34; Sept.: Ex. 34:12). Also elliptically with heautoéŒs implied, unto yourselves, with a neg. meµ (3361), not, and the inf. (Matt. 6:1, “Be careful not to do” [a.t.]); with apoŒ (575), of someone or something (Matt. 7:15; 10:17; 16:6, 11, 12; Luke 20:46; Sept.: Gen. 24:6, followed by meµ and the subjunctive).(II) Used intrans. or with heautoŒn, himself, implied, meaning to hold to a person or thing, to apply oneself, give or devote oneself to something, e.g., with a dat. of thing (1 Tim. 3:8, “to much wine”; 4:13, “to reading”; Heb. 7:13, to give attendance to, to minister). With the dat. of person or thing, to adhere to, follow (Acts 8:10, 11; 1 Tim. 4:1).Syn.: horaŒoµ (3708), to take heed; epeŒchoµ (1907), to give attention to; phulaŒssoµ (5442), to guard; phrontéŒzoµ (5431), to be careful; teµreŒoµ (5083), to keep, guard; greµgoreŒoµ (1127), to be watchful.Ant.: ameleŒoµ (272), to neglect. G4337προσέχωprosechōpros-ekh'-oFrom G4314 and G2192; (figuratively) to hold the mind (G3563 implied) towards, that is, pay attention to, be cautious about, apply oneself to, adhere to: - (give) attend (-ance, -ance at, -ance to, unto), beware, be given to, give (take) heed (to, unto) have regard.G4337προσέχωprosechōThayer Definition:1) to bring to, bring near1a) to bring a ship to land, and simply to touch at, put in2) to turn the mind to, attend to be attentive2a) to a person or a thing: of caring for, providing for3) to attend to one’s self, i.e. to give heed to one’s self3a) give attention to, take heed4) to apply one’s self to, attach one’s self to, hold or cleave to a person or a thing4a) to be given or addicted to4b) to devote thought and effort toPart of Speech: verbA Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4314 and G2192With 1 Corth 2 in view ... plus many other Scriptures .... when we are told to "Beware" .... can we do that with "the natural man" within us or Only by The HOLY Spirit and THE WORD together ?

MrBillPro, ain't nobody more confused right now then me.I sit back and read threads sometimes for hours and don't participate at all, but just sit back and enjoy the free expression by all.I've got Friends watching this out there in cyberspace and I think today has been the worse confusion ever seen for many.I need now to ask .... How many posts per thread or per page is a poster permitted without it being labeled "hi-jacked" ... because after viewing as many threads as I've seen here and all, we're not getting the definition on, nor perimeters for, what "hi-jacked" is.And if I say repeatedly through out a thread, without ever "rabbit trailing" the thread, that we are to "have NO confidence in our flesh" but ALL the Confidence in the world on The Word Of God .... then where is "this" coming from ?Had appealed for a slowing down... This is supposed to be a discussion. If it isn't profitable to you and you have nothing to add except hostilities, please beg off. This thread has been hi-jacked, but that seems to be of little concern to the others here.Stop with the , if it's too simple, or if everyone is decieved and that is your opinion, keep it to yourself ... My goodness, even the discussion itself is revealing much that isn't even being noticed.Find your own self in this, I am not about to do it... I am only asking so that I am aware of the definition of "hi-jacked" and what other rules I may not be aware of, so that I and 'others' might be enlightened, so that this type response is not provoked again by my hi-jacking but not rabbit trailing on a thread.Where have my "agendas and pronouncements" been, but to point to the Word of God and the HOLY Spirit Only. How are these things not part of this "discussion" ?I never said "everyone is deceived" ... we were talking about how NOT to be.I disagreed with one brother here for a simple reason ... the Discernment that the LORD can give us, if we want it, was being misunderstood and compared to e.s.p..I had compared it to John 10 - "My sheep are 'hearing' my Voice and 'Following'". [present active participle]It is my experience from Paul, that if one is openly accused ... they have the right to openly defend themselves.I am not going that far, because the 4 pages speak for themselves or me, but only to question this entire post so that I am aware of what hi-jacking etc. etc. means here.If as I 'think' it is, just to get me to "beg off" or bug off, then just say that, because I don't understand the rest of your post Mike and feel we Need to understand.Annie

I believe that is why I posted the whole of Matt 7 because "in context" you get the message rather clearly, besides Rom 8:28 is For 29 and to whom much is given, all the much more is required. If one doesn't know that first, one is risking their very 'Salvation'.But Matt 7 that this thread began with and why I quoted the whole of it - starts out with -Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. This is describing "the fruit inspectors" as in those of Gal 5.It is not looking at "Doctrines". We are to look at the doctrines of teachers and false prophets, according to Jesus and Paul and Jude and Peter.To fear man is a snare but to fear God with "fear and trembling" is an absolute necessity.We'd have to walk a mile in someone's shoes to know if they have "fruit" or not and I don't judge for the Gal 5 fruit in others .... I know better. What I do look for, as mandated by Christ that we DO look for, is "LOVE REJOICES AT TRUTH"For ourselves, 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself {holiness}, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. The "Fruit" is the "Image of Christ" (Rom 8:29), no lesser character and I will have to go with Paul, for me and us, coming into That Image.Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

the 'third class' is where I was going with all this, the Brethren. Is this not a very large problem in how we go about things with each other? Whatever construct they may be in, denominational moorings, so on and so forth ...crsschk,You've hit something important here (in bold), which I had not appreciated until this thread. Thanks for drawing it out, at least to my attention.

Dear brothers, I am very wasted now and must prepare to get up early for tomorrow's Dr. appt.I'm sure you understand, but I can't even see this small print now. Not bad eye sight, just exhaustion. I was just re-reading this beautiful writing for the I don't know how many times since, but it just speaks so much of what I "try" to say but can in no way express words the way this man did.Please read it at your leisure or if you desire to. To me it/he is a God send.Lord Bless.Anniehttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10233&forum=31&0

Extract from Annie's link, above.Truth in The Inward Partsby T. Austin-Sparks 'In the course of our spiritual history God deals with us in ever-deepening ways. Down, down, down, He goes, until He touches bottom to have things true at our very depth. He undercuts all our professions, doctrines, assumptions, pretensions, illusions, and customs.There is no mere formalism about this; no mere Jewish ritual in this; no mere outward observance of rites and ceremonies in this! No! This has got to go right into the inmost being, in the inward parts. God works toward that. God is ever working toward the most inward parts. Do you recognize that? Do you understand what He is doing with us? Oh, He will meet us with blessing on a certain level, as we walk before Him, like the man in Psalm 1. He will meet us with His gracious provision when we transgress and trespass and fail, and do wrong - He will meet us there in grace. But God is going to pursue this matter to the most inward place of our being, and register there His work of grace and redemption."Thou desirest...", and David did not come to that until he reached the profoundest, the deepest place of need, of failure, of conscious weakness and worthlessness. Then he cried. It is not enough to just please God in ordinary ways; it is not enough to observe the ritual of the Law, and go to the ceremonies, and carry out all that which is external. God is after truth in the inward parts, right down into the depths of our being. Why? Why? Because truth is a major feature and constituent of the Divine nature. God is called the God of Truth; Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Godhead, called Himself the Truth - "I am... the truth"; "To this end am I come into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth"; the Holy Spirit is described as the Spirit of Truth - "when He, the Spirit of truth, is come...".The Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are characterized by this one feature - truth! And God desires and has set His heart upon having people who are partakers of the Divine nature, and so He is working ever more deeply toward this end: what is true of Himself shall be true of His children - those begotten of Him - that they should be true sons of God in this sense.'If anyone believes this, (above, and I do), then we have to believe that walking by faith pleases God, living in the Spirit satisfies God, and that in Christ God sees us as perfect. Victory over sin is eminently accessible and 'fruit unto God' is inevitable.

I'm beginning to think that the word 'flesh' is used in more than one way in scripture, and we ought to be much more careful with it. Sometimes it refers to our natural inheritance (eg 'we have Abraham as our father'), sometimes to the outworking of sins (such as listed in Gal 5), sometimes to a state which pleases God (marriage is honourable), and sometimes to the frailty of now being mortal (you shall surely die). Yet, when Jesus read from Isaiah in His local synagogue, He said "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." 22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth." (Luke 4, NKJV)18 "The Spirit of the LORD [is] upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to [the] poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to [the] captives And recovery of sight to [the] blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD." 20 Then He closed the book, and gave [it] back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.Now that I can 'hear' what MikeB had in mind in opening this thread, I'm tending to agree with Diane that 'fruit' is about distinguishing whether a person has been grafted into the Vine and is abiding there. Jesus's use of the picture of fruit-bearing trees, is that it doesn't require 'discernment' to spot an orange on an orange tree (for instance).In that the verses I looked at yesterday refer to 'fruits', I have begun to think about other parameters.These might include rejoicing when under persecution; enduring hardship; the discipline / training necessary to be always ready for battle; instinctively putting on the armour of God (every day) and using it; obedience to the Master's commands; speaking the words He gives; worshipping Him in spirit and truth; praying without ceasing; walking in the light as He is in the light, at all times; loving one another out of a pure heart fervently; singing and making melody in our hearts to the Lord; believing what He speaks into my being..... ... I'll stop here but would be interested in any others which come to your mind....In thinking about those outworkings of the life of Jesus Christ in a believer, I see that bearing the fruit of the Spirit, is in the same category as the leaves on the tree (of life) (which are for the healing of the nations). The ability of a fruit tree to bear fruit is basic. It shows the tree is alive and functioning. It is only when testing and trial comes to the tree, that one discovers how deep its roots and whether it will shoot forth new branches after pruning. Pruning and drought should not kill, it. Neither should temptation, the cares of this world, nor the deceitfulness of riches.One last thought about the Vine. For any branch to be grafted in, a separate 'wound' has to be made in the main stem. Then it has to be bound in place and left in peace to heal. That means that both the Vine and the branch have suffered a wounding, to be joined by this process. It cannot be hurried; it has to be done at the correct season, and the plant has to be watered in the right measure and kept free from pests and disease. Perhaps this is a good picture of how the Lord identifies with the broken-ness we must experience in order to receive His life.At the same time, the new 'bond' is a binding into life. This is completely different from tbe 'bondage' from which He delivers us through faith in Him.Hebrews 2:12 - 15 saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You." And again: "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me." Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Romans 7:4 - Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter. The word 'should' seems to say 'newness' is exclusive of 'oldness'. Being crucified with Christ transforms the (death-bearing) apple tree into the (life-bearing) orange tree, which then must bear the nurturing, pruning and disciplining of the Father (husbandman).EDIT: Two last thoughts: 1) We do not eat our own fruit....... others do. 2) It is not possible for a grafted-into-the-Vine branch to bear fruit until the union with the main stem has been established (healed). The life of the main stem (from the root) has to supply all the needs of the branch, for its own health and well-being. Then it may bear fruit.

Please bear with me. I have just come across these verses, which speak for themselves. Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard [them;] So a book of remembrance was written before HimFor those who fear the LORD And who meditate on His name. 17 "They shall be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him." 18 Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him. Especially interesting .... 'Then'... 'again' that is when there are people keeping the law with all their heart and mind and soul and strength - which now can be done only through regeneration of the Holy Spirit - after faith in Christ.Titus 3:4 - 7But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

crsschk wrote:For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. Luk 6:43-45Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:15-20Have heard a great deal of what seems to be mixing up of intent and motivations in this manner in times past. Whole sermons (not here) on being 'fruit inspectors' and that being applied quite liberally. Rather than starting off with too much opinion on the matter, a question or two.Should we be of a particular motivation to be applying this beyond the intents in Matthew?Secondly, am also reminded that just prior to Luk 6:43 is verse 41 and 42;And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. Luk 6:41,42Verse 43 starts off with the all important word;For ...Would expect this to lead directly into the whole area of judgment and right judgment as it is such. Maybe it's the 'inspector' part that is causing another reflection.Excuse any misunderstanding of which direction this was intended to go, but I thought every aspect of this post above has been covered in one way or another on this thread.For the 30 years that I've been exposed to Christianity, I have both seen and heard of things that have mainly come from Missionaries, Ministers and Christian Couselors.These were not "Later Rain", etc. etc., but very grounded, solid, acedemic-feet on the ground type folks.Story after story, of how a certain one would come into the Church and eventually seek and gain a "position".One person would be given "discernment" that the one was ---- well just an example of one --- in one case in a Church we attended, the woman was into white-slavery and wanted to lead the youth group in order to get the kids and have them shipped out of the country. There was no "outward" way to know this about this "lovely Christian woman".It finally came out to the disbelieving congregation that that was indeed the case and she was escorted out of the Church.Story after story from Missionaries etc., that have saved numbers of people by this same protective "act of God".When they come posing "as righteous ministers or light or wolves in Sheep's clothing".I suppose having mostly and only been taught by these missionaries and having mostly they and ministers as friends, ya hear and see an awful lot of these stories of God's protective grace.Sorry if I misunderstood, that that is not what this thread was about due to Matt 7 above.All the best.Annie

Are there some verses that don't speak for themselves?Bill,Perhaps I should have said they were not hard to understand... because without doubt, some verses in scripture are hard to understand.... don't you think?

roadsign wrote:Annie, thank you for explaining your experience with deceptive leaders in the church, including the very disturbing account of a “sweet” lady /wolf. I think that helps me understand what glasses you are looking through. I hadn’t been able to recognize that from the previous posts. The dialogue got too confusing for me, so I sort of “tuned out”. (I can be bad for that.) That brings me back to a recurrent theme on this thread: simplicity. Perhaps there is a good reason: Simplicity clarifies our vision. There is something that I’ve had to learn (and still need to): When our feelings are strong, we can’t always see clearly, so we need a cooling down time. It helps to write everything down in a text file – I mean everything – every thought, every scripture that pops into the mind, etc. Then lay it on the altar overnight and ask God to burn away all the chaff and leave only the gold nugget of truth that needs to be shared. In the morning that gold nugget will be easy to see. Our penchant for excessive verbiage can make it hard for the average person to find the main point, and runs us the risk of being misunderstood. I admit, the most frequent criticism I receive of my articles on my site is that they are too long. Frankly, I like to include absolutely everything I’ve discovered about a topic. While that is good for me, it is not helpful for the readers. It muddies their vision. And it wasn’t Jesus’ way of communicating. I conclude: Scripture seems to indicate that fruit is evident, and that fruit helps us understand others. We need to accept that. We just need to develop better eyesight – and learn how that can happen. DianeTo each there own they say and "tuning out" is something we should not do to each other IF we are family. And if you couldn't "follow", then it may be that mostly Scripture in Posts is what throws you.Our penchant for excessive verbiage Diane ??? I almost just choked on my coffee. Haaaaa. But I find, having looked at ENOUGH posts on here, that when someone just jaws away without lots of Scripture to speak for them or back up a word that they're saying, I sort of 'tune out' too. But not to those who have something worth reading because I know they're coming from a SCRIPURAL base or that they TRULY ARE SEEKING --- the others without the ample Scripture to base their "excessive verbiage" or beliefs .. yes - I do tend to tune out at some point .... but sometimes tune-out AFTER I've already been bit by their verbosity cloaked in 'something' ominously non-scriptural.That is something I'VE had to learn. Hoy Vey.I don't have nor want a Website, because I've seen since 2002 on Forums how "anyone" can have a website, but no experience in 'the Field', as they call it and "think" they are "somewhat", as Paul called some, just based on them blabbering away in cyberspace on 'their' site.What "glasses" someone wears ?Too bad we couldn't just stick to HIS Word.There are So many 'made up phrases' now.I think that, in and of itself, is a sign of our times. And that is where "Pride" really hides itself.So is our writing "style", as in the polite, polished, pride type without an ounce of Jesus The Word in them.Each post on this thread was quite "telling" in the end.And some feel --- Without Scriptural Backing --- that they've had the Last Word. No, I think GOD IN CHRIST will -- By HIS WORD ... but that's WHEN the Last days really hit it's peak and MOST FALL AWAY and When He Comes.Matt 13 and 25.I almost can't believe that it is those that go on the most who are saying to others "don't talk so much" to others.I don't mean number of posts ... I mean length and DRONING ON without Scriptural backing at all.Ho hum. I conclude:Scripture matters little to most. And your conclusion is not Scriptural. But to each their own. This isn't an Apologetic forum so I shouldn't expect any more from all.My insults are not as polished as yours, but I rather read a new born child of God quote THE WORD OF GOD, then someone who does what you just condescendingly wrote here to someone you don't KNOW from Adam and don't care to, neither show where in The Word 'your conclusion' came from.Chew on that for a while as I've had to chew on your polished- stealthfully nasty-pride-filled post above and Mike's rebuke. Clean your own glasses some of you.I've been the target enough times for just using The Word but the same some can drone on forever and not be seen for what confusion they are bringing to His Truth that is His Word.And this "Jesus didn't speak much" is a lie from the pit.He hasn't quit speaking since HE created humans.But folks don't hear HIM. :-( Just themselves.MY sheep hear, He said. We just drone on with our own 'thoughts' for years and years....

Jealousy for Godby T. Austin-Sparks THE SPIRITUAL VERSUS THE 'NATURAL'That is, as I have said, the broad line of the principle. Let us get nearer to the heart of things, so far as what is represented by this chapter is concerned. When the SPIRITUAL stands to confront the merely formal, traditional, nominal and 'natural', then there is going to be trouble. This is not now merely the reaction from the world: it is the reaction from religion. I would go further, and say it may be the reaction from Christianity. There is a very great difference between formal, traditional, nominal, 'natural' Christianity, on the one side, and spiritual Christianity, on the other; a great deal of difference. So much so, that this also becomes a battlefield - the battlefield of a lot of trouble.Leave formalism alone, and everything will go on quite quietly. Leave traditionalism alone - that is, the set order of things as it has always been; that framework of things as it has been constituted and set up and established by man; that Christianity which is the fixed, accepted system of things - and you will escape a great deal of trouble. But seek to bring in a truly spiritual order of things, and trouble arises at once. And YOU are the trouble maker! The truth is that the trouble lies in the existing condition, the situation, the state; but it is only brought out by your action. And so spiritual men and women, and spiritual ministry, are called 'trouble makers', because the two things cannot go on together. That is where Israel was. They had the traditions, they had the oracles, they had the ordinances, they had the testimonies; they had the forms, they had the system - they had it all; BUT, in the days of the prophets, there was ever this vast gap between the 'externals' and 'internals' of life in relation with God. The heart is far removed from the lips. The spiritual reality is not found in the formal. You may have it all - but then bring in the truly spiritual meaning of things, and trouble begins in that very realm. It is the trouble which arises when what is external and traditional comes into conflict with something which is truly spiritual. I used the word 'natural' a few moments ago - of course in quotation marks, taking it out of the New Testament: it means, literally, that which is merely 'soulish', 'of the soul'. It is important to realise how very soulish a thing can be, even in Christianity. There can be tremendous passion, tremendous earnestness, tremendous enthusiasm, tremendous arguments and conviction; and yet the thing may be far, far removed from what is spiritual. It may be another world altogether. The conflict arises between those two things. When the natural mind is manipulating Divine things; when the natural reason has taken hold of the Word of God and the things of God; when man's own passions and interests are being served through the work and service of God: that can become the ground of a great deal of spiritual conflict and trouble. Trouble will arise in the realm of religion, and in 'Christian religion', as such, when what is purely spiritual comes up against the fixed system and tradition of men. It can happen as truly within Christianity, as it did between Christ and Paul, and Judaism. There was the tradition, and, in itself, there was nothing wrong with it; there was nothing wrong with what God had given, with the oracles and the testimony, nothing spiritually or morally wrong. But they had become ends in themselves, things in themselves; and the real meaning, significance and interpretation of them was lost; THEY were the things. The temple was the thing: with God it was not the thing; it was only a sign of something else. With them the sacrifices were the things: with God they were not the thing at all; there was only one Sacrifice that was true with God. And so we might go over the whole gamut. The THINGS - the forms and the means - were everything, and it was criminal in their eyes to say otherwise, to give any other interpretation than the historical and traditional. That is where they fell out with Paul. He had come to see the meaning of things, he had advanced from the things to the meaning; and they had not. Therein lay the conflict and the trouble. 'SOUL' IS THE GROUND OF SATAN'S KINGDOM But now, let us come to the very heart of it. There is the wide circle of the world, of mankind and of human nature; and, within that, the smaller circle of religion, whatever the religion may be. These are realms of conflict when God's full mind is present. But right at the heart of both of those, there is something else, something that is easily discernible right through the Bible: there is the Satanic. Now, if Satan is alive to anything, sensitive to anything, touchy about anything, it is on this matter of the place that the Lord Jesus is to have - and to have, not formally, but vitally; not just historically, but spiritually: so that the Lord Jesus becomes not merely a name in history, not merely a figure in history, not merely a teacher in history, not merely a historic factor, but a vital, potent force in this universe, right up to date. That is the point upon which Satan and his kingdom are most sensitive. They are alive to any little thing that points in that direction, and they recognise immediately a potential menace to their kingdom. Human nature is a good playground for that. Hence the story of missionary martyrs: those who have touched the raw material of human nature with the testimony of Jesus, with all the terrible conflict, suffering and cost. The natural man - the natural mind, the natural will; that which is merely the soul of man - in moving and working, exercising itself, asserting itself and drawing to itself, in the realm of the things of God, is a splendid playground for the evil forces. You assert any little bit of your soul life, and see what the Devil will do with it! You uncover any little bit of your soul life, and see what a wreck Satan will make of you! It is the whole story of the devastation that results when self-occupation, introspection and self-pity - all the forms of self-life - assert themselves and become accentuated. Does not the evil one just play havoc with people like that! They have opened the door, and he is not slow to present himself there for access. Now, set over against all that - the natural man brought into the spiritual world (if that is a possibility), or into the realm of God's things - is that which is purely and truly spiritual, that which is of the Spirit. And when those two things come into collision, there is trouble - for they are both great systems - simply because, in the realm which is truly of the Spirit, Satan has no place at all! 'The prince of this world cometh', said Jesus, 'and hath nothing in Me' - the Man who lived in and walked by the Spirit. In all things, in ALL things, He referred and deferred to the Spirit of the Anointing which was upon Him. The prince of this world had NOTHING in Him. Poor Peter was just at the mercy of the Devil, because, with all his sincerity, with all his well-meaning enthusiasm, he moved in his own soul. His relationship to Christ was one purely of the soul. When Peter came to be a man under the government of the Holy Spirit, that matter underwent immediate adjustment, and you can almost watch the process of that soul-life of his being brought more and more under control. Perhaps I should pause to safeguard this, by saying very emphatically that it is not wrong to have a soul. No, God has given us a soul, and it is our soul which has got to be saved. But the point is - what is the base upon which and from which we operate, the instrument that we are using, the ground of our living? Either it is the soul, which is the seat of our SELF-life, in every sense; or it is the spirit, which is the seat of the DIVINE life. Here, then, is the explanation of the conflict. Satan works hard to get hold of 'soul'. He can lead everything out on to a false stream in that way. A thing that may start in the Spirit, can at some point, without sufficient watchfulness and prayerfulness, be led right out on to a false trail, and end up as something altogether different from what it was at the beginning.But, to return to this eighteenth chapter of First Kings - Baal and all the rest of it - the heart of the thing is this. It is not Baal, it is not Ahab, it is not Jezebel: it is the evil powers; and THEY are after this man Elijah. Behind Jezebel, there are evil forces set upon the destruction of this man, because his very presence means a breach in their kingdom. He is the man in touch with God, in touch with the Throne. In him and by him, THAT throne becomes imminent - that throne is present. And these two thrones, these two kingdoms, are against one another. http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/001248.htmlWhole of Message gets clearer.

Yes Zeke, according to The Bible, yes, I can justify it.Not according to scales that are not balanced by His Word alone, you could not.My appeal is to get back to His Word and that is and has been my only appeal.Not to follow a person or me, but to follow Sola Scriptura. What 'any' others say, matters little to me if it isn't backed by His Word.And to respond to patronizing insults that are sometimes stealthily hid within a post, with as much arrogance as I've been accused of on many occasions here, and directed at "whomever", just for having confidence in His Word and nothing more .... YES, I do see Biblical justification to address these type posts.His Word speaks for itself ... and Paul is a good example of times when one would defend themselves .... even against your sarcasm or Diane's or Mike's judgments against me some pages back, that were quite harsh.I 'am' a Sister too - a child of God also.No smilies for this one.

Now that Zeke has brought this up ... What WAS this thread started for ?Was it started by a "fruit exhibitor extroidinaire" and were all those who posted it, the same "fruit in action only posters" ???I said, we are NOT to judge by the Gal 5 fruits of the spirit, because they represent The actual Image of Christ Himself and I cannot judge anyone on that ... because NONE of us have "attained" as Paul said in Phil 3.But apparently Mike, Zeke, and maybe one or two others, feel they "have attained".In order to start a post like this .... I see one finger pointed out and 3 or 4 pointing back at the posters themselves.Judge not is about the fruits .... but again, we all don't want to see that, because obviously we think we have displayed the actual Image of Christ enough to imply we have.I posted that "we" have not attained His Image and have no right to judge others for their love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness self-control .Again, some here obviously think that they have attained in these, if they think "these" are THE FRUIT that we are supposed to "judge others by."By making judgments in light of these, (in some people's view of HOW these are manifested) or of what they represent, then Jesus and Paul just failed all 'your' tests and every Godly man in the O.T..

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of "vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another". Hellooooo. Jesus "walked in The Spirit" and called the Pharisees ROUGH names and made a whip and cleared the temple.Paul walked in the Spirit and threatened the church "don't make me come over there, because you won't like me when I'm mad" [paraphrased but true], then he rebukes Peter openly, blinds a guy, etc. etc. etc. YET, they both walked In the Spirit.The O.T. Prophets etc. What did they do in their "meekness" ???????So you think these verses mean that a person doesn't get angry when GOD'S WORD is twisted and perverted and people are led astray by our "vain interpretations" ???Most of the Church's VIEW of "The Fruit" is wishy washy and "self-suiting".As in "be nice to me but I don't have to be nice to you" .... THAT is human nature and until Christ comes back, we'll be being formed into HIS IMAGE (the same name calling - temple clearing God of the O.T. also, who destroyed cities etc.). JESUS IS ALSO THE SAME GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT. HE HASN'T CHANGED !!!!!!I did not start this thread, so again I will say that we CANNOT JUDGE EACH OTHER ON love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness BECAUSE YOU CANNOT "JUDGE" UNTIL "YOU HAVE ATTAINED" in THESE. PERIOD.Phew. What can I say now ? You'll find out at work or in traffic or at home everybody ?What NON-SAVED FOLKS HATE ABOUT CHRISTIANS, IS THAT THEY DON'T ADMIT THAT THEY DON'T HAVE THE "FRUIT" BUT YET JUDGE OTHERS ON THEM.UNSAVED FOLKS DO NOT HATE "HONEST REAL" PEOPLE.Yeeeesh. I give up.Why did Paul say these words, as someone brought up Galatians 4 in this thread....Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Gal 4:17 "They" zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them. WHO are the THEY in that verse ???This "fruit Inspector stuff", is a severe case of SELF-righteousness, yet, because I say the Bible isn't saying all of the above that I just probably wasted time 'again' to write .... "I" will be called every name under the sun again that have already been and can be called.GOD will test your FRUIT to it's absolute LIMITS NOW that you all have gone to this judgmental "I've attained this" attitude with others. Even a Minister will tell you that they are always "tested by God" on whatever they just preached.I'd rather continue to rely on the beginning of Matt 7 ... Judge not and no MOTES AND BEAMING.Have a good month or two folks.

Another judge. And always the same tongue sticking out icon ... Now THAT'S the FRUIT that gives you the right to judge ... right ?Do you realize that's all you do for the most part, is go thread to thread and mock with your favorite tongue-sticking-out icon with little content or scriptural additions ?Just another judge and usually just a tad nasty too. Usually the biggest judges are those who say the least.

I love humor MrBillPro, but your humor was sarcasm and mixed with judgment.If I could post Christian humor all day.. I'd think I died and went to Heaven .... and what I've been TRYING to say, through-out this whole thread, is WE'RE ALLLLL are "work still in progress" and our goal is not to "be as good as some" ... but to just walk with Jesus and let "Him" transform us ... not to look at others in a bad way or a way that makes us feel Inferior.Jesus Loves you and us ... but that Love does not come through when the "inspecting and judging" starts based on our "Christ-likeness".NONE of us are there yet.No offense taken BillPro .... just trying to get an understanding here on what this thread is all about and the feeling of a need to make sure we understand what "judging/inspecting" ISN'T.If we don't get this right ... we'll all be judged by GOD.Matt 7 :1-5 is not verse 6 or 15. Major difference there.None of us have "attained" in the Fruit of The SPIRIT of Christ.That's all.But the point of "Christians" is ... they may not be perfect in the FRUIT, but are they willing to die for each other ?

MrBillPro wrote:This thread is beginning to produce some fruits. :-?But I will not judge rather there good or bad but some of the ones I have tasted here were bitter. :-P Man threads like this could scare someone away from the word, one might say if it's that complicated, I don't have a dying chance.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10233&forum=31&0Apparently we won't understand each other's posts... so maybe a man could do a better job here. Hope you can listen to a real man of God in link above.

It helps to read those who have "stood the test of time" and are now with THE LORD.Not just you .... ALL of us.MrBillPro wrote:Lordy, Maybe we need to spend a little more time inspecting our own fruits, I think were are about to end up with some bad fruit if we don't get this discussion refrigerated soon. :-P Or is the word Chilled out? :-? Man if we have to know all this to get to Heaven, God please beam me up now Lord, I just can't keep up, or have no desire to dig this deep, just give me a C+ and I will take a lower room, Can't possibly be anything like it's been here on earth. :-(

MeAgain wrote:I love humor MrBillPro, but your humor was sarcasm and mixed with judgment.If I could post Christian humor all day.. I'd think I died and went to Heaven .... and what I've been TRYING to say, through-out this whole thread, is WE'RE ALLLLL are "work still in progress" and our goal is not to "be as good as some" ... but to just walk with Jesus and let "Him" transform us ... not to look at others in a bad way or a way that makes us feel Inferior.Jesus Loves you and us ... but that Love does not come through when the "inspecting and judging" starts based on our "Christ-likeness".NONE of us are there yet.No offense taken BillPro .... just trying to get an understanding here on what this thread is all about and the feeling of a need to make sure we understand what "judging/inspecting" ISN'T.If we don't get this right ... we'll all be judged by GOD.Matt 7 :1-5 is not verse 6 or 15. Major difference there.None of us have "attained" in the Fruit of The SPIRIT of Christ.That's all.But the point of "Christians" is ... they may not be perfect in the FRUIT, but are they willing to die for each other ?

Mike, two things I can't handle - praise and apologies.Please Mike - I Love you and nothing on earth or hell could end that. How many times have we said, "We're growing together" as a gang on here.I only came back in January, as I told you, because I couldn't shake the Love part ... That was the Only reason. I don't need to be on a forum ... I have other things I can be doing ... but ALL youse guys did it to me last year ... you know all about that part.If I had one post that I would have to say sums up all of what I dream of and desire, it is the first post on this thread and JOHN 17 .I see JESUS humbling Himself before GOD, Who He was/is Equal To. That prayer gets me in the dead center of my wee heart.God Bless and let's have a HAPPY GREG'S B'DAY DAY.okey doke ?No one's right or wrong ... Only He is Right 110% of the time.Don't worry - Be happy - tomorrow's Friday :-D .His Love to you and ALL.me again again

crsschk wrote:Mat 7:16 - Ye shall know them by their fruits,.... By "fruits" are meant, not so much their external works in life and conversation; for a false prophet may so behave, as not to be discovered thereby. So the Pharisees were outwardly righteous before men; and false teachers among Christians may have the form of godliness, and keep it up, though they are strangers to, and even deny the power of it: but their doctrines are here meant, and the effects of them. When doctrines are contrary to the perfections of God, repugnant to the Scriptures of truth, tend to depreciate the person and offices, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice of Christ, to lessen the glory of God's grace, to exalt the creature, and to fill men's minds with notions of the purity, self-sufficiency, and ability of human nature; when they are calculated to feed the pride and vanity of men, to get money, and gain applause, to serve their own interests, and gratify men's lusts and passions, they may be easily discerned who they are, and from whence they come. The Jews have a proverb pretty much like this (u), בוצין מקטפיה ידיע, "a gourd is known by its branches". The gloss upon it is, "it is, as if it was said, from the time it buds forth, and goes out of the branch, it is known whether it is good or not;'' i.e. the goodness of the gourd is known by the fruit its branches bear. So a good preacher is known by the good doctrine he brings, and a bad one, by his unsound doctrine. Christ is not speaking of these false prophets, as men, or as private professors of religion, but as prophets, or teachers. "Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" Grapes and figs were common fruit; there was great plenty of them in Judea; we often read of the "gathering" of them. It is a matter in dispute with the doctors (w), "if a man intends ללקט תאנים ולוקט ענבים, "to gather figs, and he gathers grapes", black ones, and he gathers white ones, white ones, and he gathers black ones, whether he is guilty of a sin offering or not.'' One says he is, another says he is not. These words of Christ put me in mind of another passage, which seems to speak of grapes of thorns (x); "he that marries his daughter to a scholar, it is like to grapes of the vine, with grapes of the vine, a thing beautiful and acceptable; but he that marries his daughter to a plebeian, it is like to grapes of the vine, הסנה בענבי, "with grapes of the thorn", a thing ugly, and unacceptable.'' Though ענבי, in the last sentence, must be taken for berries which grow on some thorn bushes, and not what are properly grapes; for grapes do not grow upon, and are not to be gathered from thorns, and bramble bushes. The meaning of our Lord is, that from the false doctrines of men comes no good fruit of faith, holiness, joy, peace, and comfort. Their doctrines are like "thorns", which prick and pierce, give pain and uneasiness; and, like "thistles", choke, and are unprofitable, afford no solid food and nourishment; yea, their words eat as do a canker, are contrary to vital religion and powerful godliness. This sense I prefer; because, on the one hand, it is possible for a false teacher to do works, which may be externally good; though indeed no good works, properly speaking, can be performed by an unregenerate man, because he has neither good principles to act from, nor good ends in view: and, on the other hand, a man who is destitute of the grace of God, and lives ill, may yet have right notions of the Gospel, though he has no experimental knowledge and relish of it; but where false doctrines are imbibed, and propagated, no good fruit can follow upon it. BarnesMat 7:6 - Give not that which is holy to the dogs,.... Dogs were unclean creatures by the law; the price of one might not be brought into the house of the Lord, for a vow, Deu_23:18 yea, these creatures were not admitted into several temples of the Heathens (h). Things profane and unclean, as flesh torn by beasts, were ordered to be given to them, Exo_22:31 but nothing that was holy was to be given them, as holy flesh, or the holy oblations, or anything that was consecrated to holy uses; to which is the allusion here. It is a common maxim (i) with the Jews, שאין פודין את הקדשים להאכילן לכלבים, "that they do not redeem holy things, to give to the dogs to eat".'' Here the phrase is used in a metaphorical sense; and is generally understood of not delivering or communicating the holy word of God, and the truths of the Gospel, comparable to pearls, or the ordinances of it, to persons notoriously vile and sinful: to men, who being violent and furious persecutors, and impudent blasphemers, are compared to "dogs"; or to such, who are scandalously vile, impure in their lives and conversations, and are therefore compared to swine; neither cast ye your pearls before swine. But since the subject Christ is upon is reproof, it seems rather to be the design of these expressions, that men should be cautious, and prudent, in rebuking and admonishing such persons for their sins, in whom there is no appearance or hope of success; yea, where there is danger of sustaining loss; lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you: that is, despise the admonitions and reproofs given, and hurt the persons who give them, either by words or deeds; see Pro_9:7. The Jews have some sayings much like these, and will serve to illustrate them (k); אל תשליכו הפנינים לפני החזירים, "do not cast pearls before swine", nor deliver wisdom to him, who knows not the excellency of it; for wisdom is better than pearls, and he that does not seek after it, is worse than a swine.'' (h) Vid. Alex. ab. Alex. Gaeial. Dier. l. 2. c. 14. (i) T. Bab. Temura, fol. 17. 1. & 31. 1. & 33. 2. Becorot, fol. 15. 1. Hieros. Pesachim, fol. 27. 4. & Maaser Sheni, fol. 53. 3. (k) Mischar Happeninim apud Buxtorf. Florileg. Heb. p. 306.Gill

You Shall Know Them by Their FruitsBy Joy A. VeinotThe most used and abused verse of scripture among cults and pseudo-Christian groups, in my opinion, is Matthew 7:16 where Jesus said to His disciples, “You will know them by their fruits.” Every cultic group, by ignoring the context, misuses this verse to prove to outsiders that they are the true Christians. The common attitude of the cults is, “LOOK AT OUR GOOD WORKS AND JUDGE FOR YOURSELVES WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE THE TRUE CHRISTIANS.” The Jehovah’s Witnesses (JWs) boast, “We don’t participate in war, and we are the only ones going door to door.” The Mormons brag, “We are the only group that has a living prophet and apostles, and we also have the strongest and closest-knit families.” “Oh, you think that’s Christian?” Marshall Applewhite (of Heaven’s Gate fame) might have retorted. “We have left our families to follow Christ, and we are the only ones who have truly followed Jesus’ advice about cutting off any offending body parts,” the Heaven’s Gate crowd might have crowed. “Isn’t it obvious from our fruits that WE are ‘the truth’?” Sorry fellas. Jesus Christ said that He, not any organization or religion or church, is “the truth” (John 14:6). And you’re really going to have to give Matthew 7:15-20 another look, because it does not say what you try to make it say. Jesus was not talking about identifying Christians at all! He was warning them to beware of false prophets (verse 15), and telling them to judge whatever prophets come to them by their fruits! And what, my dears, are the “fruits” of false prophets? False prophecies! Apple trees bring forth apples, pear trees bring forth pears, and false prophet trees bring forth false prophecies! You can bank on it. These false prophecies can be in the form of false predictions of future events, or they can be in the form of false teachings that contradict scripture. Cults usually have both. Did the end come in 1914, 1925, or 1975 as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (JWs) predicted. Is Jesus actually Michael the archangel whom has already returned “invisibly” as they also claim? Can human beings become gods as the Mormons teach? Was there, after all, a space ship behind the Hale-Bopp Comet as Applewhite asserted? Why did Jesus warn the people to look for false prophecies and false teachings to help them identify the false prophets? Shouldn’t they have been able to judge them by their “works”? No. In fact, Jesus cautioned them that the false prophets who came to them would be wearing sheep’s clothing. If one is wearing sheep’s clothing, what is one going to look like? A sheep! People cannot identify false prophets by the way they appear, because they look like true prophets (or true Christians)! False prophets, false Christians, and false religions will be able to show you good works, but do not be fooled — GOOD WORKS DO NOT A CHRISTIAN MAKE. You say, “But wait a minute, Joy! The New Testament is full of exhortations to Christians to do good works, imitating the love and goodness of their Father in heaven.” That is very true. In fact, Paul told us that we were “created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” (Ephesians 2:10). But faith in Christ is what makes one a Christian. Salvation is a free gift with no strings attached. Along with salvation comes a new nature; the good works that Christians do come out of hearts that have been changed. Let me give you my apple-tree illustration: This apple tree represents a true Christian. See the apples? They are his Christian works produced from his very nature as an apple tree. The new nature is one of love and love always produces good works.But what about this tree? Does the fact that this tree has apples fixed onto it make this tree an apple tree? No! This is obviously an evergreen tree in apple-tree clothing! Beware! On the outside he may be decked out like an apple tree, but inside he is a ravenous evergreen! So instead of checking out the apples, we should be looking for the “pinecones” of false predictions and teachings. Can we always tell a tree by its apples? What if we were to find a genuine apple tree with no apples on it? Would we then label that tree an evergreen? That would be silly, because an apple tree, with or without fruit, is not an evergreen tree. We know that in nature, there are sometimes good reasons why a tree might not be bearing fruit. It may be out of season or, perhaps, it is merely immature. Maybe it suffered an injury from a particularly bad winter, a late frost, or a crippling storm. By the same token, we all know someone who claims to be a Christian, and yet, our inspection does not turn up any evidential apples. Does this mean that the fruitless one is not a Christian? Perhaps. But sometimes we need to be patient. Then the miracle happens. The tree matures, blossoms, and then—APPLES! How is an evergreen tree transformed into an apple tree, and gain eternal life and acceptance into God’s family? Paul tells us in Romans 4:5, “To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned [credited or counted] as righteousness.” You do not have to “try to be a Christian.” Only believe. Leave the rest to God. W Love to all, Midwest Christian Outreach, Inc., Lombard Illinois.Don VeinotPresidentJoy Veinot Vice President http://www.midwestoutreach.org/journals.html