Learning to "Rest in the Lord" or "The Waiting Room" experience ...

i guess the following could be classified as my testimony to where our Lord has me right now, i pray that it will be of benefit and blessing to someone ...One thing i can say about my 25+ years of walking with God is it certainly hasn't been what i'd call restful ... It's often times been exciting in illumination, intense in communion and works, joyous in praise and worship, painful in rejection and expanding faith and most excruciating in His continual tearing down of my "self" ... but never restful ... Of all the places our Lord has had me right now in probably the most peculiar place i've been in thus far ... i call it "The Waiting Room" ... It's sorta like a "wilderness" experience in that it's only Him and me, but unlike a wilderness experience it's neither lonely in the sense of my feeling all by myself, or gritty and dirty in the sense of His exposing and expunging some obvious sins in me that need be demolished, or revelatory in the sense of believing the recieving and commisioning of a special outward mission as was my case in the past ... On the contrary this "Waiting Room" in itself is spacious, pure-clean and white, with ample provision of all kinds of spiritual food, and in the midst of it is a most plush-big-comfortable chair which faces a door before it that's locked, and a door behind it that i can still open ... It would actually be a very pleasant place if it were not for the fact that it's a "Waiting Room", and i ain't never been one who liked to wait, but the only instruction i'm hearing from our Lord at present is "Rest in Me", and i know that He will not open that door in front of me until i've learned to rest in Him ...i keep hearing our Lord tell me to rest in Him, and i know why He's saying this to me ... Out of everything that i've done so far in what i believe to be my calling none have proved as difficult as "resting" in Him, which i concider being idle, and this has really brought to the forefront that i've never truly ever rested in God before ... In my own little part of the world, in my own little assignment, i've been on a long mission toward sounding the alarm verbally, and in writings, for our need of repentance, revival, and that things in the Body of Christ are totally out of wack in some very serious areas ... Then early last year (5/05) i heard our Lord say to me regarding the church and pastor He assigned me to, "Cease, I will handle it from here" ... Shortly after that i sensed an unction to publish a book (i believe) He gave me back in 1987, which was finished and published by 9/05, and then i heard Him say to me, "Cease, you have done all that I've required of you in this season" ... At first i was overjoyed to hear "rest in Me" and to no longer feel like i had fire shut up in my bones, then He showed me how fickle i was in that i'd complained all along in the initial work, and in the "rest" was now complaining that i had nothing to do ... That's when Holy Spirit showed me "The Waiting Room", and made it clear to me that yes i did have something to do ... i now had to learn probably the hardest lesson any Christian has to learn ... To wait/trust/rest in our Lord, and to do so in the same manner as Paul and Silas when they were at a place of confinement ...The other morning as i was preparing for work Holy Spirit said to me, "Resting = trust, trust = faith and faith = pleasing Him ... i'm a pretty hands on type guy when it comes to getting things done, and i also firmly believe that if i want a job done right i need to do it myself (or at least be their to supervise) ... This may be thinking beneficial if fellow human beings are involved, but not so with God ... When God says "cease" that's exactly what He means, and in this case Holy Spirit is comforting me to an understanding that without my resting in Him it's impossible for me to please Him ... What i've come to realize thus far is that there are a couple of reasons why we may not be able to rest in God, one important one being if we still have sin(s) in our lives that He's been attempting to kill but we won't let Him ... i can tell you from experience that if you're truly saved there is no way you can do the devil's dirt and rest in God too ... But my own difficulty with "rest" now in my better and more cleaned up walk with God has to do with "trusting" God ... Not for the things of scripture that are promised to us all, but for the things i believe i've heard Him say for me to proclaim concerning the coming economic upheaval in America, Revival, and my own ministry (next season of work) in the midst of His refinement of His Church ... Now my mouth is shut, and i'm now in "TheWaiting Room" where our Lord is determined to turn my "when and how long must i wait oh Lord" into "whenever You say oh Lord and in the meanwhile i'll be both praising and confessing Your Holy name" ...Holy Spirit just told me this morning that if i (or any saint) ever truly learns to rest in our Lord i'll never, ever, have to have another care in/of this world ... This may sound as impossible to some as Jesus' mustard seed saying, but i think i got the gist of what Holy Spirit was saying ... He wasn't saying that i'd (you'd) never have another hardship or heart-ache down here on this low plain, but if i (you'd) truly rest in our Lord i (you) don't have to care ... i (you) can throw that care on our Lord ... How is it that Psalms 37 starts off? ... "Fret not ... Bless His holy name that our Comforter wishes to teach us how not to fret, if only we'd surrender to His teaching ... What has started out to be a most painful lesson for me is becoming with each passing day one most soothing - i actually feel lighter! :-POne final thought/irony about my walk/calling with our Lord ... All during the past time when it seemed the majority of folk around me were at rest, i wasn't allowed ... Now when it seems the majority of folk around me are becoming more and more restless, i'm allowed to rest ... i can't say for sure what this is all about, but as with everything God and time will reveal it, so in the meanwhile i'll be learning from Holy Spirit to rest more and more in our Lord ...Heb.4[9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.[10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.[11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest ...Now in the meanwhile i've attempted to find some sermons on "Resting in the Lord", and would you believe i could only find (3) over on SermonAudio ... i'll post them here if Holy Spirit leads ...Blessings to all in the name of Jesus!

Amen!!!Thank you for sharing that. God is good, isnt he? When your out of this waiting room, and into your next season, You will be rejoicing and thanking god.I just recently got out of a waiting room. He helped to expose my sin I thought I never had.(I'm not saying that you have an unknown sin) but God puts us through this for a reason.God is goodbless you

Thanks Brother to sharing what Jesus is doing in your life. Learning to wait for Jesus is a wonderful thing, just wanting to spend time in his presence versus having a laundry list of things that Jesus has to take care of. It doesn't come easy to us Americans, we've got to be some of the most inpatient groups of folks in the world. The need for "productivity" is the flesh I believe, at least it is in my own heart.I call what you're going through as "being on the shelf" so to speak and am going through a similar experience. The Lord has been convicting me of late on my unwillingness to wait on him and I got behind a car the other day and the license plate said "I wait for no one" and I said Lord that's my heart isn't it? He's going to teach you to wait in the prayer closet as He is teaching me and as we wait He'll deal with our hearts. Jesus always knows how to speak to us in whatever place we are in our walk with Him.Blessings to you brother...

Bro Boomatt ...Amen ... our God is good!!!You wrote;"When your out of this waiting room, and into your next season, You will be rejoicing and thanking god."Ha! ... ha! ... you mean even "more"! ... That's one of the things Holy Spirit has shown me via Paul and Silas, to thank and praise Him in the midst of my confinement ... In fact to do so releases our spirit in the Holy Spirit who cannot be confined ...You continued;"I just recently got out of a waiting room. He helped to expose my sin I thought I never had.(I'm not saying that you have an unknown sin) but God puts us through this for a reason."Praise God on your release! ... And bro i have sins (we all do) still both known and unknown, but bless Him they're no where near the quantity and magnitude of what they once were, and He that began this good work in us is determined to finish it ... And thank God that i no longer fight against Him with the same intensity i once did ... Yes i know He has me here for a reason, and some of them have already been made obvious, one in particular my tendency toward "contempt" ... He's shown me that contempt, like vengeance, is not my domain ... Contempt can cause a man of God to strike the rock twice ... i pray Holy Spirit to ever keep me mindful of this ... i believe our Lord has me in the final stages of preparation for His wider ministry (my next season of work), i can only continue to hope as it's something i've prayed to Him for a long time ... Bottom line is tho, He calls all the shots ...Lord bless you! :-D PS - A note of interest about that door behind me that i can still open ... i know what that's about, and this experience has let me know just how much it turns me off to think of going back ... Where i've been has nothing to offer me, no allure ... It's thru His closed door in front of me where i want to gain entry!

Greetings in Christ bro habakkuk3 ...You wrote;"The need for "productivity" is the flesh I believe, at least it is in my own heart."i'm suspect of this too bro, which is why i've always had a running conversation with our Lord about whether the things i've believed led of our Lord to do were of Him or me ... i call it being "live (Him) or memorex (me)" ... It actually scares me to think that i'd be doing anything in the name of our Lord which is not of our Lord ... You continued;"He's going to teach you to wait in the prayer closet as He is teaching me and as we wait He'll deal with our hearts."This is believe is His major thrust, the refining of our hearts ... i've always told our Lord i wanted to be like His apostle Paul for Him, and He's always answer back, "No son, I want you to be like my apostle John" ... It's really been only of late that i began to surrender to His will in this respect, and in light of where i believe He's shown me that the Church in America is headed "love", "love" and more "love" is gonna be needed big time in both our ministering to one another and our fellow man ... i truly believe a glorious hour is coming for His Church in our time of refinement! ...Let us shine on in our Lord bro in the power of His/our Holy Spirit no matter where He has us ... To God be ALL the glory forever and ever - Amen!

Rahman, you have no idea how much your testimony blessed me. God worked in my life in similar ways, though through very different circumstances. I put my thoughts about God's rest in an ebook - Entering the Place of Rest It needs a lot of redoing. I'm wondering if I should add an appendage - and include the various testimonies like yours, as I come across them. This is awesome fellowship!Diane

Praise the Lord for all of you,This site is so awsome!! :-D May the Lord continue to bless everyone of you all. feel free to email me with any prayer requests. at boomatt@adelphia.net

i keep hearing our Lord tell me to rest in Him, and i know why He's saying this to me ... Out of everything that i've done so far in what i believe to be my calling none have proved as difficult as "resting" in Him, We get a lot of gratification from our efforts. As good as they may be, even divinely ordered, they can subtly become a dependency for us. It feels scary to let go. We fear an empty life. For me the only way I could let go of “responsibilities” was by moving away. But I fought it. I remember being angry each time we had to move. I wanted to maintain my loyalty to my church and community involvements. Each time we moved I had to start all over again. I would immediately go looking for things to do. My inability to rest was symbolic of my inability to trust in God’s spiritual rest. Not until my long-term illness did I learn to rest – and accept it. – it was God’s rest I really needed. That has nothing with what I do or don’t do, but a condition of the heart – quiet trust. "Cease, I will handle it from here" .Cease, you have done all that I've required of you in this season" ... This reminds me of the Sabbath rest, and the Sabbath year. Those were times God instituted for Israel to learn that they could trust him. They were tangible pictures of deeper truths about rest. Holy Spirit showed me "The Waiting Room", and made it clear to me that yes i did have something to do ... i now had to learn probably the hardest lesson any Christian has to learn ... To wait/trust/rest in our Lord, While “The Waiting Room” is a short (we hope) period of time that God institutes for us as our personal Sabbath rest, there is a permanent Sabbath rest God has called us to - a rest for, not only our bodies and minds, but for our spirit. This was the kind of rest I knew nothing about, even though raised in the church. It was the rest Christ came to give – to set our conscience free from guilt and self-effort. God’s permanent Sabbath rest has such enormous implications in our daily lives. Most of our problems come from a failure to enter into God’s rest. And then we are driven by guilt, fear, unbelief, selfish goals, religious zeal, etc – just like Israel’s history. And we get legalistic about the Sabbath Day - and make it more a day of carrying loads than of being set free from loads (ie, loads on the conscience). when it seemed the majority of folk around me were at rest, i wasn't allowed ... Now when it seems the majority of folk around me are becoming more and more restless, i'm allowed to rest ... i can't say for sure what this is all about, but as with everything God and time will reveal it, so in the meanwhile i'll be learning from Holy Spirit to rest more and more in our Lord ... This speaks to me of the importance of walking the path of obedience by faith. We just can’t follow the crowd. And where better can we learn to cut the umbilical cord of our religious and cultural ties than in the place of quite solitude with our Lord. Diane

Rahman,Thanks so much for sharing.I have been in His Rest, but have let the cares of this life draw me away.I always feel like God wants me to do something, but Jesus paid it all.I know that when I was in His Rest, I didn't have any agenda but His.When He said Go, I went, and when He said stay, I stayed.I know God wants to bring me into His Rest again.I love Him, and I will His will in my life.I'm so thankful for this site, and people who will share.Diane, I printed some of your Entering the place of Rest.Will study it.ThanksIt is my Prayer to do only the Master's bidding.God Bless all of you.Nellie

It actually scares me to think that i'd be doing anything in the name of our Lord which is not of our Lord ... Similar circumstances here as well Rahman and that well sums up the sentiment, even the 'doing' entailing 'saying' or speaking. Breaking with that somewhat by response here...There seems to be but one thought running concurrently at the moment; (Two, actually)"Is this the Spirit of Jesus"Left off the question mark as it also seems to be both statement as question and applies right on across the board. To myself first and foremost but to others as well, I can neither state it nor ask it of myself for others to apply (If that makes any sense) ... That may be as to a mis-intent and mis-motivation, misunderstanding. A great deal of that often is seen here in how things are approached with each other."The need for "productivity" is the flesh I believe, at least it is in my own heart."The self life trumping, forcing itself in so many fashions .. Agree wholeheartedly. Think it was Diane awhile back making mention of the whole of "oughts" and "shoulds" as we might think everyone needs to be doing just as 'we' are. Not in a matter doctrinal constructs and understandings, just in dying truly to the self and learning to subject every thought captivewhether the things i've believed led of our Lord to do were of Him or me It can be quite humbling to find that a great deal of the time they may not. The benefit is when it's recognized even as a possibility, bringing that soberness that need not be depressing even if it is convicting, repentance is axiomatic, automatic, a reflex, normative.The other running and similar thought;"Grieve not the Holy Spirit"Same expressions as above. It is a good season brother and maybe it is to be continual in one sense, as a foundation, as a undergirding, as returning to... Wouldn't pour any excess meaning into that than is warranted, we most certainly are at war with that which is to be warred with spiritually speaking, not to mention the putting to death the nature of the greatest enemy we contend with, this self of ours...Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Just to look to the Lord while recognizing how He responded, reacted, His waiting, His praying, His actions and maybe the most overlooked... His non-reactions, all those things missing from His character (difficult word there, applying it from our perspective) yet still often present in ours. Yet we have the same Holy Spirit indwelling.the refining of our hearts Yes.A lot of this waiting and necessary slow down personally. Circumstances being heavy, difficult, at times overwhelming, responsibilities, burdens and a 'hard taskmaster' not to put it too severely, demanding, yet needed, discipline and a whole new realm of challenges and revealing of personal character flaws and submission issues, complaining, murmuring even if mostly inwardly, still they escape the lips ... Worse is the repeating of the particular hostilities of the course of the day on occasion, to hear one's self repeat them as if they were being told by someone else ... The anger, justifying the frustrations ... Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Ugly, down right ugly. Feeling somewhat compelled to break with this silence for the moment, one last thought. If anything is seemingly at odds in general and may even be evident just here ... While all these things are well and good, to come full circle back to what Rahman stated and to shorten it a bit more into a narrow focus; "... in the name of our Lord which is not of our Lord.." Might I add, 'to our Lord' as well as 'for our Lord'.For His intents and purposes, for His glory, for His majesty ...Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminenceAm thinking of the bottom line at "Ten Shekels and a Shirt". Those that apply as a byproduct and regard us and that which is the 'prime product', which is the Lord Himself.It may be of some source of benefit to expand on this once again and to further the point. Along with the fear you mentioned Rahman, perhaps my biggest and the one most grievous is just a misrepresentation of the Lord. So many speaking of Him and even more bewildering in His stead, with such an ease as to put forth their own interpretations of what He is doing, saying and speaking that is in direct contradiction to His person, to His ... manner. To the scriptures most certainly, His own Word, but more so in the direct and demanding expression 'back of it' to borrow Tozer's sentiment. The root of the matter, the heart of the matter, the spirit and truth of the matter. Cannot pretend to have attained to much beyond a limited scope of things, but something out on the peripheral seems to have overtaken things into practical application only and largely missed the very marrow of that which is always first and foremost spiritual.It is where so much of the great resources that are stored up here ... If we knew half the importance of what is before us...Let me cut to the chase. I do pray that all these things are being utilized to the hilt. There are treasures untold still lurking in our midst. Messages to be not only heard, but absorbed. Great foundational truths buried in the articles (Am at present reading some of William Law, his presentation of what the fall of man is and the contradiction largely as it is supposed in this day ... another topic). But to uphold one example among the many, T. Austin Sparks. He may be equally difficult to grasp at certain points in each of our own particular walks and his style quite different from many. But the standout notice is his exalting and expressing the Lord Jesus, everything pointing to Him, His majesty and honor and glory, everything due Him. To get the church, His church back to that singular focus, to the Lord Himself. The noticeable missing aspect is how little and disinterested is the man T. Austin Sparks mentioned. That is not to say everything nor to belittle anything, just to put it in it's right ordering of matters.2Co 8:5 and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us. ... the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; who is one the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1Pe 3:22 My, had no intention of going on so long here.That we might all keep ourselves in prayer and in waiting as it seems best to us and to the Holy Spirit. It is good to wait on the Lord.

Mike wrote:Along with the fear you mentioned Rahman, perhaps my biggest and the one most grievous is just a misrepresentation of the Lord. So many speaking of Him and even more bewildering in His stead, with such an ease as to put forth their own interpretations of what He is doing Ah, yes, we have an evangelistic fervour to proclaim our convictions – eager to take a stand for truth, certain that we are defending our Lord. I suspect that tendency is absorbed from our religious background – a message we constantly hear: WE are called to be God’s ambassadors, to change the world, to turn the wrong into the right. And so, our message becomes our identity. Yet we are blind to cold pricklies and weedy patches in our message. It needs to be fine-tuned through the work of God in our lives. We hear little about a preceding time of rest in the backside of the desert. Moses’ burden for his people burned within him, and so he acted prematurely by killing the Egyptian. The desert experience had to come first. And then a brand new Moses came forth forty years later. So too our burden must first be broken up in the desert – where are put into solitary disablement. We must have our “40 years” of rest and silence. And then, in God’s timing, he will birth his divine work within us, using us in a way we cannot accept yet, a humble and “small” way, a way which is so opposed to our fleshly sense of worth. We must be stripped of our evangelistic fervour. The capitol ‘E’ in Evangelistic is reduced to a small ‘e”. (I am preaching to myself here.) A difficult aspect of rest is silence , that is - being quiet, not speaking, not responding when everything inside is screaming for expression – to defend truth (as we see it). As Rahman seemed to indicate, there are times when God muzzles us. I have had many such times, and am slowly learning that it comes from God. In the past, I it would frustrate me. I would feel guilty for not “speaking out”. I would ask myself or God, “Why could I not say those words that were on the tip of my tongue,” or “ Lord, why did I fail to think fast enough of a proper response to that comment? Why didn’t you put the right thought into my mind? Why did I say something stupid instead?” And I would kick myself for failing God. (really, for failing MYself. ) Yet, at times God seems to loosen the muzzle and I say the right thing. But also many times I blurt out absurdities which I later regret. Those (many) times cause me to run as fast as I can towards the cave of silence. I seek to hide in shame. And then I appreciate God’s muzzle. The humiliating silence feels like defeat. Yet it is a needed death process. “I must decrease, he must increase.” This feels unpleasant until we our self is sufficiently crucified. This seems to be a constant, ongoing process – many times around the same mountain. But it's worth it. As our minds learn to silence the constant, obsessive thoughts and mental churnings, we become still, and can then hear the quiet voice of God. I suspect that we in ourselves will never succeed in crucifying our tendencies to “jump the gun” – until God works in us. And until God works in others in the same way, we will never be able to "set them straight". We will just waste a lot of energy coming against a strong resistive force. Oh, how I praise God that he knows how best to handle us. Diane

Hi ALL ... :-Di praise God for the beauty of this fellowship, and what YOU ALL have shared concerning "learning to rest in our Lord" ... i've bookmarked your site sister D, and the link you provided sister Dorcas, for future reading ... Bro. Mike i'm also taking under consideration what you've posted ... i understand what you meant when you posted "It can be quite humbling to find that a great deal of the time they may not.", but i pray our Lord to be even more humbled by the fact that it was/is Him leading me to do/say ... Many of us experience the humility that comes along when God can finally show us that we've been barking up a wrong tree, a 'self" tree, but few are we who come to such awsome humbling as to find out that we were right, and it was/is our Lord manifesting Himself thru us ... That's the humbling experience i so desire, but of course i'll take whatever humbling He sends my way for at this point i'm resting in Him ... Bro Dave i hear this that you've posted "You are not to worry about ministry." ... In this "Waiting Room" the door in front of me is like one of those old fashioned office doors with that type of glass in it that obscures, but behind it i can see all kinds of light and lightning movements - very bright, and i know it's God moving on the other side of this door ... i want to be on that other side because i see ministry there, the new season of work ... The old season, including this waiting, seems preparatory of me for what's on the otherside of that door ... You best believe that if learning to rest in Him is what's required for my going thru that door, i'm all about being comforted in our Comforter! ... 8-)But regardless of all else i'm telling you this is something great and wonderful our Lord has brought me to, in that it's even affected my sleep ... At one point i'd noticed that my dream activity, mainly of stressful situations, had increased and i'd awaken not rested - But not of late, i find myself sleeping like a baby ... Whenever anything pops up now regarding what i've had a tendency to stress over (which is pretty much where am i going in You Lord) i just say "I trust You Lord", and for the first time in my life i can honestly say i mean it ...Sis D you wrote;"We get a lot of gratification from our efforts. As good as they may be, even divinely ordered, they can subtly become a dependency for us."i've had to search myself on this one, and i think i can safely say that i've gotten no gratification out of my efforts (except maybe that i've done, even tho i didn't want to, because i believe God told me to) ... All the past work i believe our Lord gave me to do i see no fruit from whatsoever ... In fact probably the major reason i've found it so hard to rest in our Lord is due to this ... But then the Word tells us that man may be used of God to plant and water, but only He can make it grow ... So i'd become pre-occupied with nagging God as to when He'd make grow what i believe He had me do ... And to be more precise when would He make manifest what i believe He had me do to vindicate/substantiate my having done it ... Back to "self" again ... :-? Another point you touched on that robbed me of my rest in our Lord was my always questioning Him (and myself) if what i was hearing to do in fact was "divinely ordered" ... i had no rest in this when i was doing it, and when i heard "cease" i had no rest because all my energy then went to "when Lord will You manifest what i believe You've told me" ... Some have alluded that this work i was doing was of myself, and that caused me unrest in that i began thinking that if i were taking myself on such a grand delusion that's lasted 20+ years then i was in dire need of serious psychiatric help ... This is what has somewhat baffled me with this scripture our Lord has just recently brought to my fore ...Heb.4[10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.i don't quite know what God's saying to me here ... Have i been ceased from a work He gave me, or have i been ceased (finally) from a work i gave myself ... But in this place of His rest i leave the final answer of this to Him, for what's most important for me to get from this verse is that whatever it was, it is now ceased ... So if my past mission was of God, He will manifest it to fruition ... If it wasn't, then praise Him that i'm covered under Rom. 8:28, and i can still go on in my new found rest in Him for i'm done with it now (therefore no further need to wonder of psychiatric help) ... :-PPss.91[2] I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in Him will I trust.Isa.12[2] Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; He also is become my salvation.Blessings in our Lord Jesus Christ!

All the past work i believe our Lord gave me to do i see no fruit from whatsoever ... In fact probably the major reason i've found it so hard to rest in our Lord is due to this I’m not convinced that there was no fruit. What about the fruit within you - the kind of fruit scripture talks about? I suspect that there has been a lot of fruit-growth in the process. Perhaps God wishes you to lay your work on the altar - your Isaac. Maybe it is your first fruit offering to God. I suspect that much fruit is ripening in that process. In the life of the Russian composer, Shostakovich, there was a period of time when he wrote primarily for his desk drawer. At the time Lenin controlled the kind of music that was acceptable. That was very stifling to the composer. He wrote “proper” music but he couldn’t and wouldn’t stop writing what was on his heart - even if it could not be performed at the time. I think of Fanny Crosby who wrote some 8000 hymns and even more poems. She couldn’t stop, though someone once tried to make her stop. It was within her, and needed to be expressed. (though, who needs that many hymns and poems!! ) She didn’t analyze if it was intended for watering or planting, or if it was practical, or whatever. I think that we can freeze ourselves up if we are constantly sifting our efforts through the grid of “evangelism” or ‘God’s will” I was trapped in that for too long. That’s how people end up as evangelical salesmen, and compromise what God has truly put within them, yet convinced they are doing “God’s Will”. That reminds me of our music industry and it’s sad. Beautiful, deep, honest, and creative expression is replaced with a lot of shallow dribble. It is the will of the masses, but surely doesn’t impress our Lord. What sells or even what’s “working” is not synonymous with what’s fruitful or what’s God’s will. Does God not allow room for the freedom of expression, as part of the gift of free choice? If we are submitted and surrendered to him, can we not trust him to help keep us moving in the right direction? Surely, God’s legs aren’t too short that he can’t catch up to us if we get too far ahead. I believe that trusting him to be a good heavenly parent brings us rest, and also keeps us from the psychiatrist. Over the years, I’ve been plagued with a fear of myself – worrying about getting outside of God’s will. That is a nightmare way to live. It is better to be an unbeliever. They just create and do whatever freely, without all the anxiety of wondering what God thinks. i don't quite know what God's saying to me here ... Have i been ceased from a work He gave me, or have i been ceased (finally) from a work i gave myself .. Do I hear another echo of my own thoughts? I wonder if this is even an issue with God.Is rest about our activity or about the state of our conscience? Is God not interested in what we CHOOSE to do freely – as our expression of worship – not doing it because we feel obligated do the “right” thing, but because we really want to? I think of the women who poured perfume on Jesus. She just did it! I doubt she even asked him if it was okay (his will) or proper? She had a lot of nerve – or was it that she was so free that she did just what she really WANTED to do – as a heart-felt expression of worship? And THAT is what thrilled the Lord.Was your creative offering not a pouring out of yourself – “wasted” on Jesus? If it wasn't, then praise Him that i'm covered under Rom. 8:28, and i can still go on in my new found rest in Him for i'm done with it now (therefore no further need to wonder of psychiatric help) . Amen! God’s love for us doesn’t change even when we flounder like a toddler – still learning with faltering steps – still coloring outside the lines at times. I think that authentic creative expression of any kind comes from a place of rest – rest from anxiety, people pleasing, people fearing, pressure, cultural trends, religious expectations. In its best, it portrays the authentic relationship we have with our divine Creator - which can only be sustained in a place of rest. Diane

Sis D you wrote;"I’m not convinced that there was no fruit. What about the fruit within you - the kind of fruit scripture talks about? I suspect that there has been a lot of fruit-growth in the process. Perhaps God wishes you to lay your work on the altar - your Isaac. Maybe it is your first fruit offering to God. I suspect that much fruit is ripening in that process." Sis D when i spoke of fruit i wasn't speaking of within myself but without, tho yes there has been much growth within me and i thank God for it now (but it was very painful in the process) ... "Perhaps" and "maybe" rate right down there with "if" for me in terms of clarity, and it's the seeking of clarity (seeing for sure) that became a major cause of my increasing un-rest, but i surly don't put it past God to give us something and then require it as a sacrifice back only to show us if we love Him more than His gift ... God's funny that way (and i don't mean this disrespecfully) ... It's like a conversation a brother and i had in which we came to understand that God's definition of such things as love, fairness, discipline, grace, obedience, etc. are light years apart from our own puny self absorbed human definitions ... The OT gives prime examples of what i used to think of as the tricks God played on His chosen vessels back then, one in particular that i've given much concideration to concerns Isaac ... i've always found it interesting that God made a promise to Abraham regarding his son that took so long Abraham gave up hope, and more alarming in the process at one point attempted to aid God's promise and produced Ishmael ... See in my past i've heard promises from God, some have suggested that i've heard promises from myself, but that's neither here nor there for me now for within this rest God and time will tell which ... Sis D you continued;"I think that we can freeze ourselves up if we are constantly sifting our efforts through the grid of “evangelism” or ‘God’s will” "Over the years, I’ve been plagued with a fear of myself – worrying about getting outside of God’s will. That is a nightmare way to live. It is better to be an unbeliever. They just create and do whatever freely, without all the anxiety of wondering what God thinks."i understand where you're coming from here but i take the exact opposite tack ... i wouldn't have had any problem at all if what i believe i've heard from Him regarding my ministry, The Called, America's economic demise and revival was delivered from a burning bush, Gabriel or a Damascus road experience, but they were'nt ... i heard these things in my spirit ... What i need to clarify here is that our Lord took a former JW, saved me and initially taught me in a Baptist surrounding, then sent me to a Pentecostal surrounding ... Talk about culture shock! ... Everything that happened to me in that surrounding i questioned, because i saw a whole lot of what was termed spiritual as overly emotional ... So the first time in that surrounding i heard what i believe to be the voice of God in my spirit it totally scared me, and then to react to the point of carrying out what i was hearing really gripped me with fear (but eventually i went on and did) ... i don't sift what i hear thru "evangelism", in fact i don't even know what that means, but i sift everything that i believe i'm hearing God say for me to do thru "is it His will" - and if His Word agrees then eventually i will move ... For me "not worrying" about getting outside of God's will would be my nightmare, and for me there is no experience in our Lord, however unpleasant it may be, that would merit the better situation being an unbeliever ... i believe why our Lord called me (and others) in the first place, with the message of much needed repentance amongst His Body, is because a whole bunch of His leadership, and subsequently those led, have not worried enough over whether we're outside of God's will ... And so they've created freely of themselves, without any anxiety as to what God thinks ... This is dangerous enough when the world does it, but deadly when the Church does does it as is obvious today ... Sis D you continued;"If we are submitted and surrendered to him, can we not trust him to help keep us moving in the right direction? Surely, God’s legs aren’t too short that he can’t catch up to us if we get too far ahead. I believe that trusting him to be a good heavenly parent brings us rest, and also keeps us from the psychiatrist."Amen, "submitted and surrendered" the two key elements we must choose to do in His being able to move us along (expediently) in the right direction ... i remember a little while back when a SI member told me that i needed to cut myself a break ... My response was apparently that's what too many of us saints are doing already, and since i didn't believe i'd set myself on the course i was on then in the first place, it wasn't up to me to take a tasty-break on my own ... Little did i know then that He'd soon give me one, and that He'd have to teach me to take it ... Praise Him! - and you're right, as the perfect heavenly Father He knows how to bring each of His children to rest (keeping us from earthly shrinks) if we'd but submitt/surrender to His rest ...Sis D you continued;"Was your creative offering not a pouring out of yourself – “wasted” on Jesus?"i don't quite know what you mean by "creative offering" ... If you mean that i created something to do for our Lord as an offering to Him then that's not what i believe i did, and i truly hope and pray that i've not been that twisted a Christian to have done so for all these years ... i've not wanted to do many of the things i felt led of our Lord to do, particularly when it came to delivering "words" to pastors ... Most pastors i've come in contact with are good at delivering God's "word" to the flock, but not so good with one of the flock delivering God's "word" to them ... But i, in His blessed rest, leave the verdict so far as still out in God right now as to whether He will prove my actions of Himself or myself in future ... i've heard "cease" and "fret not" and i'll be doing neither from now on, especially in light of Rom. 8:28 ... As one called according to His purpose, and i certainly believe that i am, i can't lose one way or the other in what i believe He's had me do so far ... Even if it wasn't Him He'll work it out to both mine, and His own good ... And i can certainly "rest" in, and "trust" Him in that! ...Sis D you ended;"In its best, it portrays the authentic relationship we have with our divine Creator."i think this is a very good definition for "resting in the Lord", and i agree whole-heartedly ... Have a very blessed day in our Lord Jesus Christ ... one and all! ... :-D

Diane said: Was your creative offering not a pouring out of yourself – “wasted” on Jesus?"Rahman responded: i don't quite know what you mean by "creative offering" ..Rahman, you've given me lots to think about. I will address those thoughts later, but for now I would like to expound on one thought: That of being "wasted" for Jesus:It seemed wasteful to pour an entire bottle of expensive perfume on Jesus' head. None of the perfume could ever be retrieved. Why, even the bottle was broken! The perfume did nothing more than make Jesus smell nice for a day. A dab would have been enough. Surely the costly perfume could have been used for the kingdom in a more economic way. It was worth a year’s wages! What a waste! A waste of an ENTIRE year of labor! We have a natural tendency to assume that we're worth more than merely being 'wasted' on Jesus. Why, we could be something useful for Him, by doing something productive with our time, gifts, talents, and efforts. However when we are eager to BE something for Jesus, we focus on ourselves. We are like the perfume - still sealed up in the bottle, yet unbroken. When we lose ourselves, what we do, or what we did, we are like the perfume spilled out, irretrievable, no longer useful. It feels like a dreadful loss. We resist this as much as we resist death - because really, it is a death process. It is dying! It is losing ourselves! Forever!When we sense ourselves being poured out and “wasted” we react by mustering up all our energy in an effort to hang on – to prove to others that our efforts were NOT a waste. We justify ourselves. We may even dull the pain of loss by imagining ourselves being successful. We want to convince ourselves, if no one else, that we are indeed someone significant, and our efforts are worthy. We cannot bear the thought of being “wasted”. Only after we stop striving to BE something useful, we discover that we were never called to BE, but to BELONG! It is so simple! That is what we are anointed for - to belong to Christ. He becomes our center, not us. We receive new life - Christ’s life in us. And his life flowing through us is immensely productive - from His point of view, though not necessarily ours.At various points in our spiritual journey, we are tested with the challenging question: Are we willing to watch our “year’s wages” go up in smoke – never to be seen again? Only when we have truly let go, only when we no longer grieve our loss, then we will be at rest – content merely being like a broken bottle of “wasted” perfume. Dianemore later....

Sister D you wrote ...- It seemed wasteful to pour an entire bottle of expensive perfume on Jesus' head. - None of the perfume could ever be retrieved. Why, even the bottle was broken! - The perfume did nothing more than make Jesus smell nice for a day. A dab would have been enough. - Surely the costly perfume could have been used for the kingdom in a more economic way. It was worth a year’s wages! What a waste! A waste of an ENTIRE year of labor!i've pondered these statements and while they are true i just can't seem to tie them to my experience ... Whatever i've done in my past season whether it proves of unction by our Lord, or myself, i don't concider a waste either way, especially in light of my even newer found rest in Rom. 8:28 ... All that has transpired in my saved life thus far must have been necessary for me to get to, or as i like to think of His getting me here to this place of rest ... Perhaps (ughhh that word again) at the onset of my being saved i wasn't capable of intering into His perfect rest then ... Lets say perhaps i thought myself so unworthy of just plain grace i unconsciously thought i had to do something for our Lord - something great in the way of works! ... If that was the case then still i have to put my actions on Him (for if it wasn't Him then i'm a lot more capable than i realized), as i did initially pray fervently to be used of Him, and i did seek the gift of prophecy (even tho i wasn't sure then what it was) because Paul said we should because it was of benefit to His Church ... Perhaps our Lord took advantage of what may have been my early misconception to His use, and my future growth, by putting me to work until He could bring me to the point i am now ... Or perhaps, as i've come to believe, He placed in me a pre-disposition that once i recognized Him for who He is i went all out (in my first love passion/zeal) to break all that i possesed of His gifts, talents, etc. that He'd given me from before the setting of the foundation of this world to break upon Him at the point of His bringing me in ... Others may concider my past efforts futile, or wasteful in light of not seemingly have served any good purpose, but i honestly don't ... i think that a great many of the folk Holy Spirit directs to SI are extremist in the sense that placing a little dab of themselves on Jesus just ain't enough ... It's breaking ALL of oneself on Him, or none at all, either hot or cold, no lukewarmness ... As i also think that the reason a lot of SI'ers find it so difficult in organized religion/denominations is because the status-quo is so comfortable in luke-warmness ... We long for "hot" collective fellowship, worship, praise and prayer to our Lord in the action of Holy Spirit breaking us over our Lord's head! ... That's why so many of us are so Revival oriented ... But alas such a seeming extreme to much of the Body today echoes the same sentiments of the disciple back then, instead of a recognition of our opportunity to being broken over our risen Lord as an annointing to His second coming ...Matt.26[6] Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,[7] There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.[8] But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?[9] For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.[10] When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.[11] For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.[12] For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.[13] Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.i have to admit that in my youth there was a glimmer of "self" attached to my seeking, and it was that of wanting some recognition ... But i was soon to be made very aware that the type of message, and experiences i would carry/have got me a kind of recognition i hadn't bargained for, but the more i then tried to run away from it the more it seems our Lord sought me ... It was not a fun time ... Now this is the part of your post that i can identify with ...Sis D you continued;- We justify ourselves. - We may even dull the pain of loss by imagining ourselves being successful. - We want to convince ourselves, if no one else, that we are indeed someone significant, and our efforts are worthy. Been there, done this ... These are some of the things that eventually cropped up after so much rejection, and what our Lord has had to free me from in order to come into His rest ...But this one i still have trouble applying to myself ...- We cannot bear the thought of being “wasted”.Even if my past actions prove to be of myself i know that all i did i did out of faith, and toward His glory and the good of His Church ... Rom. 8:28, after John 3:16, is a most favorite scripture for me ... i know that nothing is of "waste" or "wasted" in the life of "the called" ...Sis D you continued;"Only after we stop striving to BE something useful, we discover that we were never called to BE, but to BELONG! It is so simple!That is what we are anointed for - to belong to Christ. He becomes our center, not us. We receive new life - Christ’s life in us. And his life flowing through us is immensely productive - from His point of view, though not necessarily ours."Amen ... i can say that i understand this now ... But you say "it's so simple" ... Was it always so simple to you, or did our Lord have to bring you to this simplicity thru much complexity? Sis D you ended;At various points in our spiritual journey, we are tested with the challenging question: Are we willing to watch our “year’s wages” go up in smoke – never to be seen again? Only when we have truly let go, only when we no longer grieve our loss, then we will be at rest – content merely being like a broken bottle of “wasted” perfume.In terms of what i believe i've heard our Lord say He had in store for my life i can truly say that "now" if none of it comes to pass i'm ok with it ... What's important is where i am now, where He has me now, and that's in His rest, which truly is the most comfortable place i've been in Him thus far! ... My new years motto is "Lord, Your will be done" ... Whatever He wants, does,does not do, is fine with me ... It's like finally this huge recognition has dawned on me that He's in complete control, and all things transpire by His timing ... i trust God!Blessings in our Lord Jesus!PS - Sister D i have a question ... Your web-site is amazing, and i believe by the unction of Holy Spirt ... But would you call your site your own "creative offering" or an unction by Holy Spirit (thru you) to the uplifting of other saints?

Sister D i have a question ... Your web-site is amazing, and i believe by the unction of Holy Spirt ... But would you call your site your own "creative offering" or an unction by Holy Spirit (thru you) to the uplifting of other saints? My site is my “thought processor” as well as my creative expression. Many of the articles arose from personal bible studies. Many were aided by divine revelation – like dreams/visions/ experiences/ discussion etc. And I would say that God helped me along by putting certain ideas or scriptures into my mind, helping me “stumble” across the ideal reading etc. However, God did not do the work – as should be obvious. I don’t want to give God the “credit” for all the mistakes, bad sentence structure, weak thought line, and possible doctrinal errors. I am in training. Only a few years ago, while I was going through my anger-at-the-church stage, my writings would get quite tainted by my feelings. I hope most of that has been cleaned out by now. Some might look at my site these days, but I suspect not many. That’s okay. It leaves me time to fix up articles. If God wants to send anyone, that’s up to him. My earlier writings need a lot of redoing. Just a few years ago I couldn’t write a coherent sentence. Perhaps because of my long illness, I seemed to be left with a weakness in the area of speaking and writing, even worse than my high school days. Actually earlier today I was kicking myself for being so bold as to submit to you a link to an ebook that needs editing. I was thinking of skipping supper so that I could fix it before you got there.... Ha ha... oh well. Amazingly, guess what I do now more than anything? I even write for the local paper and get a lot of warm fuzzies. So as you see, God is helping me along. But his more important work seems to be in my mind, not on paper. Yikes! It’s going to take me a while to respond with all my thoughts to your thoughts…. More later…. Diane

The Lord's rest is not to be in a situation where all our circomstances are at peace. 2 corinthinians makes this abundantly clear.The Lord's rest is the inward rest we have in Him. He is at rest, His work is finnished, He is ascended and is imparting Himself as rest in those who abide in Him.We enter into His rest by entering into the Holy of Holies. That is, to be in our spirit, which is His dwelling Place and experinecing Him as our rest.This rest exists in the midst of our tumultious circomstances. It is not the alievation of problems, of hard circomstances, of difficulties, of persecutions, or anything outward. His rest is experienced when we abide in Him. We experience by the rich supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, rest in our environment, peace amist unrest, joy amidst sorrow, and patience in tumult.The reality of Christ is experienced when we abide in Him, lay hold of Him, and press forward into the Holy of Holies living in His Presence in our regenerated spirit.Graftedbranch

Thanks sister D ... When i say "unction of Holy Spirit" i didn't mean the content so much as you're being moved to share it ... i know when i had a website i felt led of our Lord to put it up to share a message i believe He gave me to share, and when i heard Him say take it down i took it down ... But i think i ubderstand what you meant in your post, for my site wasn't out of my experiences in our Lord per se, but more of sharing a direct word i believe our Lord told me to share ...i'll post no more and just check back when you post some more of your thoughts ...i bless God for this back and forth, and thank Him that He's clarifying some things for me via you ...Blessings in our Lord Jesus Christ! ...

GraftedBranch you wrote;"This rest exists in the midst of our tumultious circomstances. It is not the alievation of problems, of hard circomstances, of difficulties, of persecutions, or anything outward."Amen! ... it's an alleviation of caring about the tulmut, problems, hard circumstances, difficulties, persecutions and more so in my case "expectation of things hoped for that i have not seen" ... Whatever our Lord has in store for me He has in store for me, and He will reveal it in His own good time if in fact there's anything to reveal ... In this i rest, and in the fact that where i was in terms of anxiety i no longer am ... As i told a fellow saint our Lord's rest is always available to us, so if we don't have it the apparent problem is with us, we're doing something to block it ... i give Holy Spirit all the credit for teaching me that it's as simple as our choosing to rest/trust in Jesus that He has all concerning our lives well in hand ... All we gotta do is remain calm, hold our peace, and trust Him, especially in situations in which there's nothing we can do but worry and/or fret ...Blessings in Christ, and thanks for your input!

The Lord's rest is the inward rest we have in Him. He is at rest, His work is finnished, He is ascended and is imparting Himself as rest in those who abide in Him.GB, I'm going to quizz your mind for a moment - because I don't think you completed your thought. Can you explain what exactly this REST is that Christ came to give us? What happens in the Inner Sanctuary. What work is completed? And how does it give us rest (in a practical everyday way)I think you made a big leap to another aspect of rest when in the next phrase you speak of outward circumstances: This rest exists in the midst of our tumultious circomstances.Do we miss some inward dynamic when we think mainly on the outward?Diane

Sister D and GraftedBranch ... i'm praying that our Lord will unction a dialog between you two for it seems that you two know something of rest light years beyond my beginners position here ... i look forward to learning all that He has for me to learn regarding His "rest" ...May Holy Spirit move on you both in a mighty way!

But you say "it's so simple" ... Was it always so simple to you, or did our Lord have to bring you to this simplicity thru much complexity? That latter, for sure…. “much complexity” is a good way to put it. It is one thing to know theological truth, and quite another to internalize it – into all aspects within our complex mind. It is a constant process. Whatever i've done in my past season whether it proves of unction by our Lord, or myself, i don't concider a waste. Perhaps our Lord took advantage of what may have been my early misconception to His use, I think that this is my point exactly. I see no need to get obsessed with navel-gazing, wondering if God willed it or I willed it. I think that part of God’s will is that we exercise free will. And then we learn from that. This is bringing me to a thread I posted, “Love God and then do what you want” so I’ll save some thoughts for there. Over the last while I have heard so much God-talk, ex: “God led me, God called me, God spoke to me, God told me, God wants, God …” that I am very turned off. A lot of these people who use this constant God-talk are no better than the ones who don’t. And if they are so in tune with God, I wonder, why is their church just like most of the rest – quite dead on a whole. Just lately I’ve seen some very messed up people use this God-talk as a way to excuse some very stupid decisions they were making. Their God talk seemed to be a way to “cover” themselves so that they would never have to take ownership of their own problems. In a sense it feels scary to speak without backing my words with “God told me.” It can give a sense of authority. Yet, I have also learned that if it is truly from God, others will discern it. Even unchurched can understand truth when it is spoken. I’d prefer to make people discover truth themselves, just help them along: ex: What do you think of this thought? So, if you see me reacting to God-talk you’ll know why. I want to scream out, “No, God did not "make" you do it, YOU chose it, you WANTED to do that, and that’s okay. Even if you are messing up in the process, I love you anyway, and so does God. God refines us through it” I have learned that even if God does call me directly into something, I can’t assume that conceding means I will succeed. I have come to realize that “In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps.” Prov. 16:9 We make a lot of decisions, but God’s bigger purposes rule. ****Re “Waste” Rahman, Trusting that your life and efforts are not a waste is good thinking, I believe. It keeps you at rest and peace. Yet, I with to hang on to the word, “waste” and not replace it with “everything has a purpose” just yet. We need to be honest about our sense of loss, wasted talent, or whatever. We Christians can have a tendency to gloss over pain and anger with fine sounding spiritual ideals – to make ourselves feel better: “It was all God’s will.” In a sense Christ’s “untimely” death was a waste. He had so much too offer – so many more miracles, so much more teaching, so much more potential – all unused. We see “wasteful” losses all the time. I cover this idea in the “Sabbath Year” paragraph on my site – the year when crops were to “go to waste”. It was God’s way of teaching them to trust him, not their crops. We need constant reminders to trust God, not our “crops”. And crop losses have a great way of doing that.

Sister D you wrote;"It is one thing to know theological truth, and quite another to internalize it – into all aspects within our complex mind. It is a constant process."Amen!You also wrote;"I see no need to get obsessed with navel-gazing, wondering if God willed it or I willed it. I think that part of God’s will is that we exercise free will. And then we learn from that. This is bringing me to a thread I posted, “Love God and then do what you want” so I’ll save some thoughts for there.""Navel gazing", that's funny! ... You know i know that i have free will, but i also know from experience that my will can not say "no" to God's will if He's determined that there is something that He has for me to do ... i've tried in the past to run from some things i believed i heard our Lord tell me to do, and the result was what i call my "Jonah experience" ... i also know what it's like to have "fire shut up in my bones", when a word is required to be delivered (in my case over 20 years to one pastor) and i decided i just wasn't gonna comply ... i can tell you i got no rest in my spirit until i delivered that word ... There have been a few things that i believe i've heard God say to me that were easy, like hearing about a future ministry and recieving The Called ... There were other things that required my dealing with folk, primarily having to do with approaching pastors with a "word", that i grew to really dislike doing but did anyhow ... i thank God that whatever that was it's now a past season, and that He's also freed me from hind site navel gazing ... :-? i saw your thread “Love God and then do what you want” and just the very phrase caused me consternation ... "Love God" and "do what you want" sounds like the most horrible of oxymorons to me, and instantly reminded me of the scripture "theres a way that appears right unto a man but the end result is death" ... Now "Love God and do what He wants" i find soothing to my spirit, and that's what i try to do ... i've been used of our Lord to counsel a young single brother who holds to your thread title, he says he loves God (and i don't doubt him) but does what he wants and now he has a sexually transmitted disease ...Sis D you continued;"Over the last while I have heard so much God-talk, ex: “God led me, God called me, God spoke to me, God told me, God wants, God …” that I am very turned off. Yeah, me too - and i'm one of those "God told me" people ... But i'm careful not to through the baby out with the bath water, as i'm also careful not to let my frustration with the majority of the "God told me folk" just make me completely dismiss all of the "God told me folk" ... Generally the "God told me folk" that i get turned off to are the ones that promote "seed for greed" and repeatedly quote that scripture "pick up that phone" that i've not been able to find in my Bible yet ... i also believe that Holy Spirit has gifted me to be able to discern a true "word" from a false, and self serving "word" ... It's been my experience that a true "word" calls ALL the attention to our Lord, our need for purity and holiness before Him, constant repentance, a seeking of His face and feet and not His hands, service to His Body, commision and charity to the poor, and it doesn't cost me any love $$$ to the deliverer of that message ... i can tell you ther's not many words/messages going around like this today ...i can only use my circumstance as an example, but i was assigned to a church/pastor where "words" of ear ticking promises of material blessings are readily accepted from Balaam's by pastor and the majority of the congrgation alike - but "words" from a few who deliver that God requires the ministerial staff on their faces before Him, a need for calling solemn assembly and seeking revival are patronized, if not outright rejected ... A church reflects what it chooses to listen to ... Sis D you continued;In a sense it feels scary to speak without backing my words with “God told me.” It can give a sense of authority. Yet, I have also learned that if it is truly from God, others will discern it. Perhaps for some, but i know in my case had i not percieved God telling me to i'd not of said anything ... And yes, as is quite obvious today, if it's truly from God others will discern it ... Alas its the remnant few, and not the majority ...Sis D you continued;"Even unchurched can understand truth when it is spoken. I’d prefer to make people discover truth themselves, just help them along: ex: What do you think of this thought?If you mean by un-churched "unsaved" then i don't agree with this at all ... i believe the only reason any of us understand anything about the truth of God is because we're chosen and called to it, and then thre's His determination to finish the good work He started in us in spite of ourselves ... All that i know of our Lord and His truth since my salvation has been wrought via my causing Holy Spirit much grief and pain initially, but then i realize that i'm more like the son who told His Dad "no" but in fit of conscience/conviction went on and did ... i'm learning to prefer being whatever tool God wants me to be in His making someone discover His truth, for i can't make anyone discover anything concirning Him - that's Holy Spirit's job ... i believe i'm called to the prophetic ... i believe that God does not make a move, especially in chastisement, unless He sends warners first ... His Church has been warned, is still being warned of what we're bringing upon ourselves, but it doesn't seem the majority (saved and unsaved) are discovering His truth ...Sis D you continued;"So, if you see me reacting to God-talk you’ll know why. I want to scream out, “No, God did not "make" you do it, YOU chose it, you WANTED to do that, and that’s okay. Even if you are messing up in the process, I love you anyway, and so does God. God refines us through it”i hear you ... i'm tired of the God talk (as you put it) too ... To be even more honest i'd grown real tired of being an instrument of "God talk" (in the warning sense) ...That's how i got so wrapped up into the most unrestful "when are you gonna show em Lord?" ... i bless Him that He's freed me from that too!Sis D you continued;"I have learned that even if God does call me directly into something, I can’t assume that conceding means I will succeed.Amen ... especially if that calling has to do anything with proclaiming a message of repentance to a rebellious house ... OT history shows us that we should be prepared to fail ...Sis D you continued;I have come to realize that “In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps.” Prov. 16:9 We make a lot of decisions, but God’s bigger purposes rule.On this point you understand far more than me ... This statement affects me like Rom. 9 ... i'm really not sure how this whole free will/His will thing works, He does and that's all i need to know ... That, and i know that in it all i'm a vessel of mercy ... Now in regards to your ending statement on "waste" i can digest all that you said except for your statements regarding Christ "untimely" death being a waste ... See i don't think God is capable of doing anything "untimely" for all He does is perfect timing - And His saying on the cross "it is finished" tells me that He'd done all that was necessary to our Father's satisfaction ...i'm really being blessed by this dialog, and i sure hope you are too sister D! ... Hey check out this sermon if our Lord leads, i think it has something to say to "Love God then do what You Want" ...Heaven is our Rest - Hebrews 4:1-13http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=3906181537

Can you explain what exactly this REST is that Christ came to give us? What happens in the Inner Sanctuary. What work is completed? And how does it give us rest (in a practical everyday way)Objectively What is completed is the Lord's work on the Cross. On the Cross He solved all our problems, He terminated in Himself the Old Creation, Sin, The Law, Satan (and His dominion) the ordinances, all the distinctions of race, of nationality, of gender, of social status, of everything pertaining to the Old Creation.And IN resurrection He brought into being the New Creation, In Himself. That is, IN HIm, in His resurrection we are regenerated and partake of Him in resurrection.Christ haveing solved all the problems of Mankind by terminating them on the Cross, has finished His work, been ressurrected, ascended and sat down on the right Hand of God as a Man.And now, as our High Priest, and as the Great Shepard of the Sheep is working to bring all His redeemed belivers into the experience of all He has accomplished.And to do this, He has Imparted Himself as the indwelling Spirit of Christ into all His redeemed, regenerated believers. His Spirit which indwells us is all inclusive of all Christ is and all Christ has accomplished,And as we come to Him, call on HIm, and avail ourselves through faith, of His finnished work on the Cross and His resurrection Life, the Spirit within us brings us into the reality of all Christ is and all He has done.And the result is, through the rich supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, even though our circomstances may be overwhelming, we may be pressed, we may be shaken, we enjoy in the depths of our being the reality of the Peace of Christ, the Joy of Christ, the Rich overcomming Life of Christ so that we can say with Paul, "In all these things we are more than conquerers through Christ" who loved us".We are tripartite, We have a body, a soul, and a spirit. And when we belive into the Lord Jesus Christ, our dead spirit is regenerated and resurrected from the dead. And Christ indwells our regenerated spirit. And though in our soul, that is our mind, our will, our emotions, we may be experiencing tumultious situations, our inner being which is quickened to Life is at peace. Though we may be shedding tears, yet within our innermost being is a conciousness of the Peace of God. though our circomstances are hard, we are being persecuted, we are experienceing trials, yet by the rich supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ we are able to bear them because in the depths of our being we enjoy the sweet fellowship with Christ, we enjoy Him as our indwelling peace, our indwelling rightousness, our indwelling hope.We carry this treasure in earthen vessels.Graftedbranch

Christ having solved all the problems of Mankind by terminating them on the Cross, has finished His work I’m going to tweak this thought here - and add to your good thoughts: The main problem of mankind is specified in scripture: condemnation and separation from God. This problem causes humans to cover up with fig leaves, just like Adam did in order to avoid the unbearable experience of shame when standing naked before God. Remember, before sin, the garden couple was naked and KNEW NO SHAME. Since then, as a result of the fallen condition, we all know shame – whether we are aware of it or not. Shame, along with guilt, is the core root problem of man, and the cause for many of their troubles. It is the core motive behind bad choices – man attempts to make fig leaves for himself. This is true for all from the drug addict in the gutter to the high-class executive who is addicted to his status. It is true for the pagan or the religiously upright. Religion along with self-righteousness, rituals, roles is a big fig-leaf and does wonders to cover shame. It is man’s attempt to cover up guilt. Religion, along with its legal-minded frame requires a life of laborious work – work to appease guilt and shame, to atone for one’s own sins. This is what it means to live in the six working days, and not the Sabbath rest. If you want to see the full-blown effects of this reality, go visit the psych wards. However, you don’t have to go there to see its effects in every day life around us. The advertising industry depends on man’s shame by offering whatever will dull it – like white teeth or a good loan. Much of the “work” is not outward – but happens in our conscience – where we work hard to appease it. Christ’s atonement gave us rest from all this hard work by letting us off the hook – ie forgiving us, giving us a new start, ie a new nature. Through Christ we enter into rest. The work is done. Christ finished it. Our guilt before God is removed. Diane

You know i know that i have free will, but i also know from experience that my will can not say "no" to God's will if He's determined that there is something that He has for me to do ... i've tried in the past to run from some things i believed i heard our Lord tell me to do, and the result was what i call my "Jonah experience" ... i also know what it's like to have "fire shut up in my bones", when a word is required to be delivered (in my case over 20 years to one pastor) and i decided i just wasn't gonna comply ... i can tell you i got no rest in my spirit until i delivered that word ... I like Jonah because he really is a picture of our human nature. At least he didn’t pretend. He did what he wanted! And that was no deterrent to God. God shaped his will in the fish. I think God can superimpose his will on ours at times. I've had such experiences. It was like he put words in my mouth that I hadn't even thought of. But God doesn't side step our need to wrestle and grow into good thinking. How many Christians today are running too, even while they stand in the pulpit or sit in the pew. At least with Jonah, it was obvious – that’s better than pretending. I think that God himself permits our failures – maybe even sets us up, so that we can SEE that we are actually running in the wrong direction. It is a divine act of mercy. Thanks for mentioning Jonah. He needs to be mentioned on the “love God then do what you want” thread. i've been used of our Lord to counsel a young single brother who holds to your thread title, he says he loves God (and i don't doubt him) but does what he wants and now he has a sexually transmitted disease ... This fellow doesn’t know what “love God” means, wouldn’t you say? He doesn't KNOW God's love for him, and so he doesn't value and love himself - his own body. ... A church reflects what it chooses to listen to ... This is a good thread topic. Sis D you continued;"Even unchurched can understand truth when it is spoken. Rahman said: If you mean by un-churched "unsaved" then i don't agree with this at all ... Well, of course, unchurched are blind to a lot of truths, as well as Christians. Yet I have met atheists who have sharp discernment when it comes to some biblical truths – even better than those in the church. Truth is truth. It is everywhere, and many can grab on to parts of it here and there. i believe the only reason any of us understand anything about the truth of God is because we're chosen and called to it, Well, someone once gave me a rather stern rebuke. He said, “You Christians think that anyone who is not a Christian is stupid, can’t think, can’t understand. So you talk down to him – like he can’t understand anything. The truth is, a lot of those outside the church are very clever and can understand a lot of deep truths. You don’t have to keep on talking down to him, or treating him like you’re so much better than him.” ... i'm learning to prefer being whatever tool God wants me to be in His making someone discover His truth, for i can't make anyone discover anything concirning Him - that's Holy Spirit's job ... This reminds me of how when Jonah was thrown out of the boat the sailors acknowledged God! Some mission work that was! Jonah wasn’t exactly a hero. Clearly, God can get his messgae through, even through the failures of his people – even because of their failures! God used Baalam's ass, so there is hope for any of us. i believe i'm called to the prophetic ... i believe that God does not make a move, especially in chastisement, unless He sends warners first ... His Church has been warned, is still being warned of what we're bringing upon ourselves, but it doesn't seem the majority (saved and unsaved) are discovering His truth ... I think of Isaiah who was called to warn, and was even told they wouldn’t listen. So their blood was on their heads. I’ve been around that mountain – warning a church what God placed in me. Of course it was mocked (who am I anyway). And now I watch the product of disobedience: an impotent church with constant problems. Now they must learn through their failures. It is no time for me to say, “I told you so.” The Spirit is in charge. i hear you ... i'm tired of the God talk (as you put it) too ... To be even more honest i'd grown real tired of being an instrument of "God talk" (in the warning sense) ...That's how i got so wrapped up into the most unrestful "when are you gonna show em Lord?" ... i bless Him that He's freed me from that too! Boy! Can I relate to this. This is the very point where we must learn to rest, to wait on God, to be like Habakkuk and rest in faith in God even though our land is disintegrating. Sis D you continued;"I have learned that even if God does call me directly into something, I can’t assume that conceding means I will succeed.Amen ... especially if that calling has to do anything with proclaiming a message of repentance to a rebellious house ... OT history shows us that we should be prepared to fail I include another kind of failure – OUR OWN –own failures to carry out God’s calling perfectly. Like Jonah, we may, in various ways we still have to deal with stuff in the heart. Or like me – tainted with personal issues or weaknesses. The biblical prophets didn’t come out perfectly. Moses had the fire burning in his bones when he slew the Egyptian. Joseph had it when he told the dreams to his family (yet God used it all to refine him in prison) David, had his failure time. And on it goes. I’m convinced that not all is written about the prophetic formation of our Bible writers. Sis D you continued;I have come to realize that “In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps.” Prov. 16:9 We make a lot of decisions, but God’s bigger purposes rule.On this point you understand far more than me ... This statement affects me like Rom. 9 ... i'm really not sure how this whole free will/His will thing works, He does and that's all i need to know ... That, and i know that in it all i'm a vessel of mercy ... I think we have to accept the fact that God is far bigger than our minds. That keeps us humble. Now in regards to your ending statement on "waste" i can digest all that you said except for your statements regarding Christ "untimely" death being a waste ... See i don't think God is capable of doing anything "untimely" for all He does is perfect timing Of course you are right. I am presenting this point through the eyes of natural thinking – in order to expose the contrast between God’s purposes and man’s assessment of God’s ways. Hey check out this sermon if our Lord leads, The Lord may lead, but I can’t get to it. I think they want my address or something first. Heaven is our Rest - Hebrews 4:1-13 I had to chuckle when I saw this. I had just that moment set aside a book called, “ The Saint’s Rest” by Richard Baxter – an 1872 printing. Heaven is his theme. Really, heaven is our promised land. We REST in that assurance. PS I see spiritual truths in color, and Rest needs to be in green not blue – symbolized by green pastures, where he makes me lie down… Heaven is our Rest -Diane

Wow GraftedBranch! ... Yours is a very profound explanation, and i can hear the voice of our teaching Holy Spirit all throughout what you've posted ... i've copied and printed this to read to a sister who's going thru some turmoil right now ... Praise God for His teaching me concerning His "rest" thru you!Sis. D ...i have to say that some of your comments give me serious pause for thought, and then others you just knock outta the park and make me shout "home-run"!!!You wrote;"Christ’s atonement gave us rest from all this hard work by letting us off the hook – ie forgiving us, giving us a new start, ie a new nature. Through Christ we enter into rest. The work is done. Christ finished it. Our guilt before God is removed. Religion along with self-righteousness, rituals, roles is a big fig-leaf and does wonders to cover shame. It is man’s attempt to cover up guilt. Religion, along with its legal-minded frame requires a life of laborious work – work to appease guilt and shame, to atone for one’s own sins.This is what it means to live in the six working days, and not the Sabbath rest."i've copied this too to read to my burdened sister ... This "sabbath rest" topic is a new one for me and i've come across two sermons regarding it that i'm saving for last ... It's interesting that at the time of reading yours and Grafted Branch's posts i'd just got finished listening to these two sermons that touch on the same nerve ...Entering into God's Rest (Pt. 1): Let Us Therefore FearHebrews 4:1-2http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=62605173151Entering into God's Rest (Pt. 2): Let Us Believe the PromiseHebrews 4:1-13http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=7100516156This "Waiting Room" seems to be becoming more of a "School Room" with each passing day ... Blessed be our Lord Creator Comforter who teaches/leads us into His truth!

Sis. D you wrote;"I like Jonah because he really is a picture of our human nature. At least he didn’t pretend. He did what he wanted! And that was no deterrent to God. God shaped his will in the fish."Ha! ... ha! ... me too ... Regarding the young brother you wrote;"This fellow doesn’t know what “love God” means, wouldn’t you say? He doesn't KNOW God's love for him, and so he doesn't value and love himself - his own body."Well as a young man myself once i know the battle of raging testosterone, and thank God that's He's allowed me to get to my mid 50's - this place of waning testosterone where it's so much easier for me to have the mastery over myself ... i read in my Men's Health mag sometime back that young men think about sex on the average of once every five minutes ... To be honest when i was young(er) sex was pretty much all i thought about, i even destroyed my first marriage because i couldn't keep within my marital confine ... So being able to much more identify with this young brother, and a whole lot others who are hiding their battle losses in this department, i'm not as hard on him/them as you might be ... It's interesting that in many cases when i'm talking to a sister who has a son or husband who's in Christ but battling some type of sexual addiction, when i say to them i understand what they're going thru or why they're doing what they do - they get the most puzzled look on their faces ... Mainly because they only know/see me as the God fearing, scripture spouting, old dude i am now ... Yes you're right in the greater/higher sense of this young man not truly understanding what loving God means, or just how much God loves him, i'm a witness as i was once where he is ... But as with myself i believe God has His hand on him, that as time goes on he will more fully learn of His love, and eventually of His rest in battles with the flesh ... It is truly a mega-massive satanic onslaught of what todays young(er) folk are having to battle with in the flesh arena ... i thank God that i'm not a young man in todays world ... Sex, especially promiscuous sex, can actually kill you now, and the devil has kicked up the draw like never before ... i find today that the sin that so easily besets young folk today is sex ... There was a time when we could say "besets young men", but satan has orchestrated it to the point that females are just driven/loose ... It's amazing to me how far things have fallen in just the past 20 years ...Sis. D you wrote;"Yet I have met atheists who have sharp discernment when it comes to some biblical truths – even better than those in the church. Truth is truth. It is everywhere, and many can grab on to parts of it here and there.Hmmmm ... i must have only met dumb athiest (not that i've met that many), the ones i've known had only sharp rebukes for any Bible truths ...And in a comparisson between a sharp witted atheist with some discernment of Bible truths, and a dull witted saint who has only gotten the one most important truth from scripture that the sharp atheist couldn't (that Jesus is Lord and the only way to salvation) - i'd say the saint grabbed on to the best part of any and all that truth floating about ... :-PSis. D you wrore;"I’ve been around that mountain – warning a church what God placed in me. Of course it was mocked (who am I anyway). And now I watch the product of disobedience: an impotent church with constant problems. Now they must learn through their failures. It is no time for me to say, “I told you so.” The Spirit is in charge."Amen ... that's the same place i was in ... Things at the congregation i was assigned to are in the same boat ... Things are crumbling, commitees are failing, saints are quitting their posts, tithers are waning, offerings are getting less to the point where vows are now being asked for and many of the sheep are beginning to grumble and rebel against the newest (now just repackaged) formula for success spouted from the pulpit ... The only "i told you so" i want to be right about anymore is that revival is coming!Sis. D you wrote;"Boy! Can I relate to this. This is the very point where we must learn to rest, to wait on God, to be like Habakkuk and rest in faith in God even though our land is disintegrating."Amen again ... and that's just where He has me now!Sis. D you wrote;"I include another kind of failure – OUR OWN –own failures to carry out God’s calling perfectly. Like Jonah, we may, in various ways we still have to deal with stuff in the heart. Or like me – tainted with personal issues or weaknesses. The biblical prophets didn’t come out perfectly. Moses had the fire burning in his bones when he slew the Egyptian. Joseph had it when he told the dreams to his family (yet God used it all to refine him in prison) David, had his failure time. And on it goes. I’m convinced that not all is written about the prophetic formation of our Bible writers."i know you're right! ... My own personal weaknesses (after i found out my calling meant even more rejection) were the very things i threw back at God when it became obvious to me He wasn't about to leave me be ... Needless to say it didn't work ... :-? Sis. D you wrote;"I think we have to accept the fact that God is far bigger than our minds. That keeps us humble."Yes, humble now ... but before this was what kept me frustrated ...Sis. D you wrote;The Lord may lead, but I can’t get to it. I think they want my address or something first."They ask for it when you click on the .mp3, but there is a box to click on that says "later" and then you can hear the sermon ... Sis. D you finished;"PS I see spiritual truths in color, and Rest needs to be in green not blue – symbolized by green pastures, where he makes me lie down…Heaven is our Rest -Amen ... you know i can get to that ... When i think of soothing i always think of blue, sky blue actually, and that is representative of our heavenly rest - but green, especially pastures, does speak to our rest down here on this low plain ... God bless you sis D for being His vessel of ministering to me regarding His rest(s) ...

Rahman, Well, I sure am basking in all the warm fuzzies here. Thanks for the encouraging words. And thanks also for somewhat disintegrating my tidy little response regarding the man with the moral issues. Truly there is a need for clarifying the words, “Love God”. It is easy to grossly oversimplify those words, for example, equating it with typical use of the word, “Love” today, - which, of course is why the formula doesn’t work. Your comments and humble testimony make me aware of the continual need to grow in the love of God – in order to master the insurmountable temptations of this life. I do believe that as we grow in love for God, which is to have an ever-deepening experiential knowledge of his love, we will conquer our bent to submit to temptations. Think of the disadvantage we leave our youth when we don’t constantly teach and model the love of God (so deep and wide) and its sufficiency This, sorry to say, is not an automatic in our families and churches. I wonder if you would agree with this, based on your own past experience. ***I wish to share a true story in response to earlier discussion about applying prophetic insight: A farmer was selling crates of apples and would hide rotten apples on the bottom. Someone with prophetic gifting happened to visit one day, and learned of his scheme through divine revelation. Rather than say to him, “God told me that you are hiding rotten apples” (which was too direct) he casually shared with the farmer a little story about someone who had cheated in something and got caught. This did the job – the farmer’s conscience was pricked. I’ll never forget that story. It reminds me that being too blunt can actually be counterproductive. It can cause people to get their backs up and develop a defense, which moves them further from confession than towards it. Also, we can easily invite discredit – along with all the self-acclaimed “prophets”. There are shrewd but gentle ways to encourage people to admit their failings, while saving face (avoid harmful exposure). I have found that one of the most effective ways is to simply share something about myself. People process my words through their own experience. If I’m honest, it invites them to be honest. This is a vulnerable way to operate, but it works. We relate on level ground, I am no better than them. This brings us into fellowship with each other. I can relate to almost any sin problem. When you get down to the core of the heart, underneath the manifested sin, there is a lot of common ground – from the self-loathing drug addict to the shame-bound religious junkie. our Lord took a former JW, saved me and initially taught me in a Baptist surrounding, then sent me to a Pentecostal surrounding ... Talk about culture shock! .Hey! This is similar to the path I took. I started CFC (legalistic, like JW) then Baptist (got lots of good teaching there), and then semi-charismatic (with Vineyard influence) I think the changes were good, and also helped me see the bigger picture of the religious community. i saw a whole lot of what was termed spiritual as overly emotional ... So the first time in that surrounding i heard what i believe to be the voice of God in my spirit it totally scared me, and then to react to the point of carrying out what i was hearing really gripped me with fear (but eventually i went on and did) .. For sure, what we witness in our religious environment - so full of mimicry, causes us to be apprehensive. That's not all bad. Also, if we're not looking for certain kinds of manifestatins and callings, and it does happen, we can be more assured it is not of us, the devil, but of God who is speaking. Uncertainties in the revelatory practises forces us to develop discernment – to learn to differentiate the fake from the authentic –lest we throw the baby out with the bath water. i don't quite know what you mean by "creative offering" I see the realm of the prophetic intertwined with many creative elements. It was so all through scripture. Just look how creative the prphetic books are. I realize that this idea of creativity has gone off the rails in charismatic circles, but that doesn’t mean we discount it. If you study the lives of the composers, you discover that they had a very strong prophetic bent - expressed through their music. They could “see” far beyond their own cultural confines and religious trends. That’s why their music is so timeless. While not all of them submitted their lives to God, we can sense the depth given to them by God. They were often rejects in their own society because they were so “other”. Creation and nature has always been a frequent subject of musical composition: ex Vivaldi’s Four Seasons, Beethoven’s Pastoral Symphony, Haydn’s “Creation” oratorio, and much more – also among painters, and writers. Only a few works from this vast hoard of gifted people, for one reason or another, became well-known. So you see you are one amidst a great throng of gifted dear folk who expressed a creativity put within by the divine Creator. As I said earlier, I believe that authentic creativity and deepening spiritual insight is birthed in rest. So if God calls us to a Sabbath rest - we aught to relish the invitation. Perhaps it is a gestational period. Perhaps it is a time to lay our past creative projects at the feet of Jesus, as an offering consumed by fire, perhaps so that he can birth something new within us. Enough rambling for now….. ***I will listen to the “Rest” sermon when I can. Rest is an important topic for me – and I’m always open to learn more about the implications of Resting in the Lord. God bless. Diane

Sis D you wrote;"Rahman, Well, I sure am basking in all the warm fuzzies here. Thanks for the encouraging words."- You know sis D our Lord prompted me to purchase a book a while back that stressed the importance of "recognition" ... Recognition of not only how He talks to us in these "blessed are ye who have not seen" days, but also of those whom He oft times speak to us thru ... i believe that the prophetic in both calling and gift are foremost of exhortation/encouragement, about the building up of the Body individually and collectively ... The reading of that book really made me think about Heb.3:13 "But exhort one another daily, while it is called today", and so whenever i recognize our Lord talking to me via another saint i thank Him first but also thank His word bearer for being available to my benefit ... Such recognitions (to me) attest to, and affirm our faith in Him as our ultimate reality -Sis D you continued;"Your comments and humble testimony make me aware of the continual need to grow in the love of God – in order to master the insurmountable temptations of this life. I do believe that as we grow in love for God, which is to have an ever-deepening experiential knowledge of his love, we will conquer our bent to submit to temptations.- Amen ... i know for myself i'd always expected God to turn me into a dust spot at any minute for losing some of my flesh battles in the past ... But He never did, He just kept on loving me into submission, and as time went on i became increasingly aware of how much i was hurting Him, and more importantly that after all He was doing for me He was the last person i should want to hurt ... It was primarily this recognition that soon gave me the ability/strength to "STOP" - tho i'd be only telling most of the truth if i didn't also say that escalating HIV infection also was a huge deterent - Sis D you continued;"Think of the disadvantage we leave our youth when we don’t constantly teach and model the love of God (so deep and wide) and its sufficiency This, sorry to say, is not an automatic in our families and churches. I wonder if you would agree with this, based on your own past experience." - Amen ... i'm gonna speak on older guys because older guys are what i know ... i generally get them (especially absentee Dads) a bit twisted when i point out that's what's wrong with our kids is "us" ... i'm often amazed at how blind we can be when it comes to who caused the major damage in our (fatherless) childrens lives ... It also amazes me how so many of we now older men seem to have forgotten our own youthful struggles with our flesh in tandem with our faith ... But i think the biggest horror i see is that there are a lot of older men in the church who can't minister to the youngers because they're still having their own (hidden) flesh problems (tho it's now more a head fantasy than bodily actuality) ... The stats on men in Christ with the porn problem is pretty high, especially amongst older guys ... i don't have a problem with the fact that many older men of God battle with a draw to porn, even as a saved man i understand what that draw is (Eph. 2:3, 1 John 2:16, James 1: 14,15) , but my problem with such older men is that they still childishly indulge in the draw and hide it instead of standing in thier maturity in Christ and choosing to make no provision for their flesh (1 Cor. 13:11) ... They last thing a person with any kind of sexual addiction needs in this day and time is a computer (Rom. 13:14, Gal 5: 16,17) ... Scripture says that we should confess our sins one before another, not that it has to be explicit but to let others know they're not the only one battling ... i think this especially true amongst men, especially elder to younger - Sis D you continued;"I have found that one of the most effective ways is to simply share something about myself. People process my words through their own experience. If I’m honest, it invites them to be honest. This is a vulnerable way to operate, but it works. We relate on level ground, I am no better than them. This brings us into fellowship with each other. I can relate to almost any sin problem. When you get down to the core of the heart, underneath the manifested sin, there is a lot of common ground – from the self-loathing drug addict to the shame-bound religious junkie. - Amen ... i know that one of the things that really tweaks me about a lot of saints is that mask that we've all learned to put on ... i know in my own Pentecostal circle the mask is very obvious ... Ask many a saint how they're doing and they're quick to fire back "I'm blessed", but at altar call many of these same saints are broken down at the altar in need of much prayer ... It's like it's become a game ... i think one of the things that does make me a little bit more effective in talking to younger men is that i will tell them exactly what the deal has been, and is right now with myself, and how i still battle to keep my nose clean before our God, and why ...Wow sis D "from the self-loathing drug addict to the shame-bound religious junkie" ... This is a very hard but true statement, sis you don't pull any punches -Sis D you continued;"Hey! This is similar to the path I took. I started CFC (legalistic, like JW) then Baptist (got lots of good teaching there), and then semi-charismatic (with Vineyard influence) I think the changes were good, and also helped me see the bigger picture of the religious community."- Amen ... Being raised a legalistic, law bound, JW is something that had also kept me questioning God as to the motivation behind this calling i believe He's called me to ... Is it You God using my past grooming for Your work, or is it me using my past grooming and calling it your work? was the question i used to ask ... But now that that's behind me i don't have to ask that anymore (thank God!) ...i totally agree, i also think the reason why He led me on this diverse path was to let me see the wider Christian community - tho i must say that over time Pentecostalism has made my head hurt ... i can deal with error because none of us are perfect, but i can no longer deal with loud error ... If our Lord does not make it plain to me that there is still a further work for me to do at my past assignment, i'm leaning toward attending a nice quiet Presbyterian church in my neighborhood -Sis D you continued;"If you study the lives of the composers, you discover that they had a very strong prophetic bent - expressed through their music. They could “see” far beyond their own cultural confines and religious trends. That’s why their music is so timeless. While not all of them submitted their lives to God, we can sense the depth given to them by God. They were often rejects in their own society because they were so “other”. So you see you are one amidst a great throng of gifted dear folk who expressed a creativity put within by the divine Creator."- i love a lot of classical music - adagios especially ... i'd read a while back that a great deal of the classicals were in honor to God ... In fact when i get up on Sunday mornings that's what i usually play ... i find these instrumentals much more soothing, and they prepare me much better toward worship than the loud and raucus that Gospel has become ... i like the plain ole hymns, and i like the Gaither's type of worship music ... it definitely was our Lord who sent me to the Pentecostal camp for whatever His reasoning to yet be manifest ... "a creativity put within by the divine Creator" ... This is exactly how i see it, and long to see just what He'll do with the "creative expression" manifested thus far ... Tho i must say that when i say "long to" now, it's in rest of His timing for me to see, if in fact it's His will for me to see -Sis D you continued;"As I said earlier, I believe that authentic creativity and deepening spiritual insight is birthed in rest. So if God calls us to a Sabbath rest - we aught to relish the invitation. Perhaps it is a gestational period. Perhaps it is a time to lay our past creative projects at the feet of Jesus, as an offering consumed by fire, perhaps so that he can birth something new within us."- You know i was gonna post this before but didn't ... i was once a painter in oils, and thought that one day i'd be a world famous artist (delusions of granduer for sure) ... But for me my "creativity" didn't come out of "peace" but out of "angst", out of my "unrest" ... i once thought that it was rest in Christ that made me stop painting, but in retro i see that it was my "calling" that stopped me from painting, and that the angst/unrest that once prompted me to paint became the fuel for my new creative project, that of doing what i believe i heard our Lord telling me to do ... My first season ministry (including the writing of The Called and God on Earth), what i now see as my being faithful in least, became what either God or myself (He and time will tell) used to expend all my pent up angst/unrest to that release point of last year ... Of course i believe it was the Lord who orchestrated all this in my life, for there's no way i can see myself orchestrating all of the intricacies it's taken for me to have gotten from there to here ... If i did so then i'm a genius and i don't even know it ... Now all my previous angst/unrest has been consumed in the fire of my past work, and now i'm at rest ... For myself i believe that this "rest" period, this "Waiting/School Room" is in fact a time of "deepening spiritual insight" (as is obvious by all that He's teaching me on this thread alone) ... i still don't have enough grasp on the understanding of a Sabbath Rest, as i haven't really delved into your site explanation because i've not yet finished listening to the sermons ... But i'd definitely say that i'm now in a "new" gestational period ... And yes i know that the past creative project is done and behind me because i heard Him say so in my spirit ... i see the new door in front of me ...It's funny, this Sunday i woke up to Holy Spirit prompting me to get my Bible and going back to Hebrews 4 ... i hesitated at first because i just wanted to lay there, but i soon reached over and grabbed my Ryrie ... As soon as i opened it He focused me to Heb. 3: 7-19 and again i found myself asking Him, "Lord what are you saying to me"? ... After a while i said to Him, "Lord You know that i'd never entertain unbelief toward my salvation in You and all that entails" ... Then i thought concerning the things i believe i've heard Him say to me, and how i'd relied on Him to get me thru to the point of doing those things and then it dawned on me what i believe He's saying to me regarding such ... i believe what He's saying to me is that we've been thru to much history in regards what i believe He's said to me, and that i've done by Him, for me to freeze up in unbelief now that i'm at my Jordan ... With this in mind i say yea and amen, for i have no intention of settling for the transjordan ... When He's ready to part the river, i'll be ready to go over and conquer! -Sis D you finished;"I will listen to the “Rest” sermon when I can. Rest is an important topic for me – and I’m always open to learn more about the implications of Resting in the Lord."- Amen ... do so at your liesure ... 8-) Blessings in Christ sis!

Rahman, you have given a lot to chew. For now I'd like to highlight one part of the dialogue because I sense that it touches many - including some of those who visit SI or are members.

As you point out, there is no hope of freedom while one tries to hide the truth about their sexual addictions.

Rahman said:
i know for myself i'd always expected God to turn me into a dust spot at any minute for losing some of my flesh battles in the past ... But He never did, He just kept on loving me into submission, and as time went on i became increasingly aware of how much i was hurting Him, and more importantly that after all He was doing for me.

He was the last person i should want to hurt

... It was primarily this recognition that soon gave me the ability/strength to "STOP" - tho i'd be only telling most of the truth if i didn't also say that escalating HIV infection also was a huge deterent –

Sis D said:
"Think of the disadvantage we leave our youth when we don’t constantly teach and model the love of God (so deep and wide) and its sufficiency. This, sorry to say, is not automatic in our Christian families and churches. I wonder if you would agree with this, based on your own past experience."

Rahman said:
Amen ... i'm gonna speak on older guys because older guys are what i know ... i generally get them (especially absentee Dads) a bit twisted when i point out that's what's wrong with our kids is "us" ... i'm often amazed at how blind we can be when it comes to who caused the major damage in our (fatherless) childrens lives ... It also amazes me how so many of we now older men seem to have forgotten our own youthful struggles with our flesh in tandem with our faith ... But i think the biggest horror i see is that there are a lot of older men in the church who can't minister to the youngers because they're still having their own (hidden) flesh problems (tho it's now more a head fantasy than bodily actuality) ... The stats on men in Christ with the porn problem is pretty high, especially amongst older guys ... i don't have a problem with the fact that many older men of God battle with a draw to porn, even as a saved man i understand what that draw is (Eph. 2:3, 1 John 2:16, James 1: 14,15) , but my problem with such older men is that they still childishly indulge in the draw and hide it instead of standing in thier maturity in Christ and choosing to make no provision for their flesh (1 Cor. 13:11) ...

The last thing a person with any kind of sexual addiction needs in this day and time is a computer (Rom. 13:14, Gal 5: 16,17) ... Scripture says that we should confess our sins one before another, not that it has to be explicit but to let others know they're not the only one battling ... i think this especially true amongst men, especially elder to younger -

Might I be right: It was your deepening love for God that gave you the "want-to" to change your ways?

Many thanks, See ya later....
Diane

Rahman, Here's the rest of my response. There is quite a conglomeration of thoughts going on here, so I’ll pick away at it as best I can.

- i was once a painter in oils,

But for me my "creativity" didn't come out of "peace" but out of "angst", out of my "unrest" ...

Oh right, of course! Thanks for the reality check! You caught me asleep for a moment – in an illusion. In actual fact, much genuine creative expression comes, not from rest, but from unrest, through deep angst,– ex the Psalms. Think of our well-loved timeless music, art, poetry, etc. Perhaps a motivation behind the work is through facing of this world as it really is, grieving over the unattainable perfect rest in this life. In this way authentic creations empathize with common human experience and longings. And so they give far more than merely an aesthetic, entertaining, or decorative appeal.

An added thought:
I believe that many gifted people, who have not found Christ, crave for a vent to express their hopelessness. So their work is the ultimate outcome of humanism, unbelief, and atheism. That, perhaps explains some of the pointless, bizarre stuff of our present era. Compton made an observant comment: “…. music was a form of misdirected unhappy humanist prayer for many composers.” …sort of like the altars to the “unknown God” Paul saw in Athens…. “profound and mournful prayers to a God that was never known.”

i once thought that it was rest in Christ that made me stop painting, but in retro i see that it was my "calling" that stopped me from painting, and that the angst/unrest that once prompted me to paint became the fuel for my new creative project

i believe that the prophetic in both calling and gift are foremost of exhortation/encouragement, about the building up of the Body individually and collectively ….. "But exhort one another daily, while it is called today…… Such recognitions (to me) attest to, and affirm our faith in Him as our ultimate reality –

… one of the things that really tweaks me about a lot of saints is that mask that we've all learned to put on ... i know in my own Pentecostal circle the mask is very obvious ... Ask many a saint how they're doing and they're quick to fire back "I'm blessed", but at altar call many of these same saints are broken down at the altar in need of much prayer ... It's like it's become a game

Ahh, but it’s so much fun! …………..…...( for a time)….

This comment grabbed my attention:

If our Lord does not make it plain to me that there is still a further work for me to do at my past assignment, i'm leaning toward attending a nice quiet Presbyterian church in my neighborhood –

…. i have no intention of settling for the transjordan ... When He's ready to part the river, i'll be ready to go over and conquer! –

Are you speaking about your eternal destiny – heaven, apprehended for now in faith? Or are you also expressing a hope that God will give you something important to do while here on earth – like a big ministry, or something? I know lots of people who believe the later, and, maybe that’s okay and proper….. But, I wonder…. … just what if …….God doesn’t make it come about as expected?…. … And one is destined to be an ordinary obscure “foot-washer” for the Lord. (May God bring on more of those!!!)

Now all my previous angst/unrest has been consumed in the fire of my past work, and now i'm at rest ... For myself i believe that this "rest" period, this "Waiting/School Room" is in fact a time of "deepening spiritual insight"

May God be your prime delight as you rest in him!
Diane

Enjoying this ... :-)

Hi sis D ...

--- Yes now i paint with words, His words ... That's exactly the same conclusion i came to sometime back when a few of my old friends got upset that i'd abandoned painting (and the libertine mindset) ... He altered me creatively from a "painter" to a "writer", or as i see it to a "scribe" ... Writers can claim something of themselves, whereas a scribe realizes we're but Holy Spirit's secretary, a "called" stenographer if you will ... i now take "notes" and "letters" from Him :-D ... This became really evident to me at my recieving of The Called ...

You said you were reading my "work" ... Not sure what "work" you're refering to here, but if glorious music and visual imagery surfaced in your mind behind anything our Lord has revealed in my writing it down, then praise God becaues that's the reason He has us do it ... And ahhhhh "imagination"! ... After recieving The Called our Lord revealed to me that helping others to use their imaginations to "see" Him was an important part of my calling ... Isn't it sad that we imagine big time on the things of this world, but sag greatly in our imaginings of God, His Word, and wonders ... i guess i wouldn't be able to do it either without His predisposing me to it ...

What did i paint? ... Impressionisn was always my favorite so in that mode i began to do "architecturals" (old Parisian store fronts and european flower markets, etc), and landscapes ... i also did one large "religious/cubist" style painting called "The Final Hour" (which i believe He caused me to do and is the only painting i still have), and have always seen as a book cover ... Your question made me remember this ... A fellow painter and myself back then used to refer to ourselves as "Van Gogh and Gauguin" (i don't have to say who was Van Gogh huh?) ... But my motto back then was, "But this time it's gonna be the worlds ear" ... Perhaps our Lord will use this too to His benefit, but to my speaking in it instead of cutting it off :-P ...

No i have no desire to paint at all any more ... Of the talents God gave me He seems to have narrowed it down to writing, and this i only do when i feel led of Holy Spirit ... i can do nothing without our Lord's leading (at least that's how i feel) ... i guess that's why even a revised "Love God: THEN do what you Want" still scares me ... Especially at this point in my life, without His direction, i haven't the slightest idea of what to do ... Right now i hear "rest in Him" so that's what i'm doing ... ---

Sis D you wrote;
"In actual fact, much genuine creative expression comes, not from rest, but from unrest, through deep angst,– ex the Psalms ... Perhaps a motivation behind the work is through facing of this world as it really is, grieving over the unattainable perfect rest in this life. In this way authentic creations empathize with common human experience and longings. And so they give far more than merely an aesthetic, entertaining, or decorative appeal."

--- Wow sis D, like we used to say back in the day: That's heavy! (i agree) ---

Sis D you wrote;
"An added thought: I believe that many gifted people, who have not found Christ, crave for a vent to express their hopelessness. So their work is the ultimate outcome of humanism, unbelief, and atheism. That, perhaps explains some of the pointless, bizarre stuff of our present era.

--- Amen - that's exactly how i see Surrealism, and Abstractism i see as painting's greatest exercise of self indulgence ... Angst produces "edginess" and the world (particularly the young)
likes edgy (i know i did), but peace can only produce serenity (which as an oldster i really enjoy) ---

Sis D you wrote;
"Compton made an observant comment: “…. music was a form of misdirected unhappy humanist prayer for many composers.” …sort of like the altars to the “unknown God” Paul saw in Athens…. “profound and mournful prayers to a God that was never known.”

--- Hmmmm ... another "heavy" statement ... Bro Compton also made a profound statement on your thread about the scripture "Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart" that was very similar to what our Lord showed me ... That it's impossible for us to truly delight ourselves in Him, and still end up with the same selfish desires that cause many of us to gravitate to this verse in the first place ... True delight in our Lord will alter our own selfish desires to becoming His more universal desires ---

Sis D you wrote;
"I have come to agree. We can affect far more change in each other by building and affirming, rather than poking at flaws and errors. (which only makes people strengthen their defences)"

"There are plenty prophets out there who are good at putting all the X’s in the right places. They can give us dreadful warnings if we don’t shape up. But few who can actually help us move on from there."

--- When i read the OT prophets i see men raised up to warn of God's impending correction on gross laxity, and then a consolation message of how good it would be to pro-actively repent, or a consolation message of healing after re-active repentance ... i believe when our Lord raises up prophetic voices that's exactly why we're sent, to poke at flaws and errors and to attempt bringing to repentance those who will hear, as well as bringing added guilt upon those who will only strengthen their defences to continue in error ... i think it the same today ...

Also a prophet can't help anyone move anywhere, only God can do that ... A prophet comes with a warning and a solution from God that God would really like to be the only thing necessary to turning the hearts of His folk, but we know that this is not usually the case ... True Prophets of God are mocked, maligned and marginalized, and if our Lord hasn't marked His prophet for martyrdom folk will only seek the prophet after His correction has fallen ... If in fact our Lord has further ministry for me i'd not be surprised it was in this capacity of explanation and consolation, after God's correction to tenderize His Church to moving on ---

Sis D you wrote;
"Are you speaking about your eternal destiny – heaven, apprehended for now in faith? Or are you also expressing a hope that God will give you something important to do while here on earth – like a big ministry, or something? I know lots of people who believe the later, and, maybe that’s okay and proper….. But, I wonder…. … just what if …….God doesn’t make it come about
as expected?…. … And one is destined to be an ordinary obscure “foot-washer” for the Lord. (May God bring on more of those!!!)

--- No i'm not speaking of my "eternal destiny" but my "earthly destiny", His ultimate purpose for me down here, that's why i posted this earlier;

QUOTE: from my previous post;
"It's funny, this Sunday i woke up to Holy Spirit prompting me to get my Bible and going back to Hebrews 4 ... As soon as i opened it He focused me to Heb. 3: 7-19 and again i found myself asking Him, "Lord what are you saying to me"? ... [b]After a while i said to Him, "Lord You know that i'd never entertain unbelief toward my salvation in You and all that entails" ... Then i thought concerning the things i believe i've heard Him say to me, and how i'd relied on Him to get me thru to the point of doing those things and then it dawned on me what i believe He's saying to me regarding such ... i believe what He's saying to me is that we've been thru to much history in regards what i believe He's said to me, and that i've done by Him, for me to freeze up in unbelief now that i'm at my Jordan[/b] ... With this in mind i say yea and amen, for i have no intention of settling for the transjordan ... When He's ready to part the river, i'll be ready to go over and conquer! -"

So no i don't see myself with a "big ministry" as such empires we see today, but a small one in people size that does "big things" ... As i said before i believe i've heard things from our Lord in this regard;

- I will make you a spokesman first to My Church, and then to the nations ...
- When your ministry takes off it will take a multitude with it ...
- Remain as you are (don't get tempted to flash) ...
- You will handle great wealth but you will never be rich (in the worldly sense) ...
- Start/fund a Christian Philanthropy (in store for the needs of His Body - which by law a
philanthropy requires only 3 board members) ...

Now as to "just what if ... God doesn’t make it come about as expected" ... i have to say i don't know, but here is "rest", He knows and i know He'll show me how/where to move on to after this lesson ...

"Just what if ... God doesn’t make it come about as expected" is a question i've been asked many times before ... i've been pretty verbal to so many folk about what i believe i've heard from our Lord about the coming economic correction, Revival, The Called and my future ministry thru which Holy Spirit will capture a multitude ... i know it all sounds so far fetched but Lord knows i believe it, and the only thing that has kept me believing on thru all odd is this, "Just what if ... God DOES make it come about as expected" ... i can only imagine the far sweeping positive effect it would have amongst my family, friends and job co-workers, to say nothing of my pastor, congregation, saints i know, folk here on SI, and people yet unknown who would hear my testimony ... So in the meantime at this Jordan He's taken my focus off "myself", and "the ministry", and placed it squarely on "A MULTITUDE" ... It's for them, in parallel with my new found place of rest, that i steadfastly continue in my "assured expectation of things hoped for" until our Lord shows me otherwise ... Only He, and He alone, can free me from this if i'm in error ---

Sis D you finished;
" May God be your prime delight as you rest in him!"

--- Aaaaaaaaa-men! ... i believe that's His whole reason for having me here in "The Waiting Room" ... i am to have no other gods before Him, including my belief/vision of a much anticipated promise of service and ministry in and for Him ---

Blessed be the name of our Lord jesus!

Bro. Mike you wrote;
"Enjoying this ..."

Praise God! ... Every good and perfect gift ... :-D

Hi, Rahman,
We’re digging right in here! Even stirring up some roots! It looks like there is a definite tilt towards the prophetic going on in this thread (which a part of me would like to evade). Yet, there is a strong divine wind blowing in that direction in the church at large. So I feel that it is good to pursue. Let’s take off the Sunday-best, and get into those grubbies!

However, before I make further comments, I’m going to review Art Katz’s [url=http://www.benisrael.org/onlinebooks/prophetic_call/the_prophetic_call.htm]The Prophetic Call[/url]

Will be back…
Diane

Sis D you wrote;
"We’re digging right in here! Even stirring up some roots! Let’s take off the Sunday-best, and get into those grubbies!"

--- i think He took me outta my Sunday best a long time ago :-P ---

Sis D you wrote;
"It looks like there is a definite tilt towards the prophetic going on in this thread (which a part of me would like to evade). Yet, there is a strong divine wind blowing in that direction in the church at large. So I feel that it is good to pursue."

---"Tilt"? ... With me it's full blown :-P ... i hear you on wanting to evade this issue, tried that, doesn't work (at least for me) ... i also find that many of us who suspect we have such a calling after a while of learning of the special turmoil it puts on us want desperately to evade it ... i know i did ... It's scary ... It's like extra carricular activity that sets one apart like a sore thumb (a real inconvienece to the Body) ... So we don't have to get into again if there are, or aren't prophets today, God will have to make that plainer, plus we've already done that on other threads ... But my interest has been peaked in your phrase "part of me", this division which plagues so many saints, this division that questions His mission for us, this division that oft keeps us from His "rest", is what i believe this thread is moreso about ... So may i ask you? ...

- What part of you do you think it is that "wants" to evade the prophetic? ... and ...

- What part of you do you think it is that trumps the former and decided re: the prophetic tilt that "it's good to pursue" ... and finally ...

- In regards this touchy subject of the prophetic, in your loving God, which part of you is "doing what you want", and which part "doing what He wants?"

Sis D you wrote;
"However, before I make further comments, I’m going to review Art Katz’s The Prophetic Call"

--- Amen ... i'll listen again myself ... [color=006600](Edit - Ha! ... ha! ... Listen? ... i just clicked on this and i remember this from a ways back ... Holy Spirit thru Katz has blessed me a lot from this)[/color]

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Rahman wrote:
- What part of you do you think it is that "wants" to evade the prophetic? ... and ...

- What part of you do you think it is that trumps the former and decided re: the prophetic tilt that "it's good to pursue" ... and finally ...

- In regards this touchy subject of the prophetic, in your loving God, which part of you is "doing what you want", and which part "doing what He wants?"

I just finished read [url=http://www.theschoolofchrist.org/articles/reluctant.html]Letter To A Reluctant Prophet[/url] by Chip Brogdon, and here I am stumbling into this thread that I have put off looking into for a while now. And I have two questions, why did I put it off so long, and why have I put off looking into Brogdon for so long?

Anyway, check it out, as it addresses some of these questions that Bro Rahman has raised.

Peace.

Thanks Bro. Aaron ...

Sis Chanin awhile back brought bro. Chip to my attention ... i got one of his teachings on the prophetic calling and not only enjoyed the content but the humble manner and delivery from this brother ...

Here are a few things that popped out at me from his letter ...

- If you are a Christian first you will remember that you should walk softly, with meekness and humility, while esteeming others as better than yourself. Then the prophetic word, when and if it comes, will be seasoned with the appropriate amounts of mercy and grace.

- Remember that without love you will inevitably become as sounding brass - all judgment. If we cannot or will not stay in Love, God will set out to humble us shamefully before our brothers and sisters that we may know the depths of our hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

- As much as possible, stay away from money. Freely you have received, freely give.

- Refuse to promote yourself, "your" word, or "your" ministry. If God gives you something to say, let Him see to the promotion of it.

((( This is another conformation to me regarding The Called )))

- Don't be afraid to make tents. If you want to eat, work.

- Be slow to anger and quick to forgive.

Bro. Aaron you wrote;
"I just finished read Letter To A Reluctant Prophet by Chip Brogdon, and here I am stumbling into this thread that I have put off looking into for a while now."

--- You didn't stumble here bro :-P You were led ---

Bro. Aaron you wrote;
"And I have two questions, why did I put it off so long, and why have I put off looking into Brogdon for so long?"

--- If you truly don't have a nagging idea of "why" deep down inside, earnestly ask Holy Spirit - He'll tell you "why" ...

Blessings in our Lord Jesus bro! :-D

Rahman asked Diane:

- So may i ask you?
What part of you do you think it is that "wants" to evade the prophetic? ... and ...

- What part of you do you think it is that trumps the former and decided re: the prophetic tilt that "it's good to pursue" ... and finally ...

- In regards this touchy subject of the prophetic, in your loving God, which part of you is "doing what you want", and which part "doing what He wants?"

Right now I feel a bit like I’m sitting in a shrink’s office – across the desk from Dr. Rahman – feeling at a loss to express what I’m thinking, even not really knowing what I’m thinking.

Well I followed your “prescription”, Dr. R, and sought the Lord, and then – just then – I stumbled on my inbox and saw a mailing by Chip Brodgen – of all things: an excerpt from "etter To A Reluctant Prophet". That occurred shortly after seeing Aaron’s post:

I just finished read Letter To A Reluctant Prophet by Chip Brogdon, and here I am stumbling into this thread that I have put off looking into for a while now.

Well, that article took me to one that perfectly suited for the moment: [url=http://www.theschoolofchrist.org/articles/savant.html]The Prophetic Savant[/url] This literary piece has "guts"! (If you know what I mean) I love to read it from time to time. For me it is like a prod – pocking into my heart and then stirring up all the dormant feelings and thoughts. It articulates what I can’t find words for
..... There, now I feel a lot more settled – restful, so to speak, content to accept the reality of the unsettled way of life – really a life of paradoxes - as you see when you read it.

That partly answers your first question. However, perhaps for me the real issue is more a desire to evade discussion of the prophetic rather than “being” it. There are always many experts who tire me with their “wise” explanations when, really, they have no experience of anything these articles explain. (I hate to think how much I myself try to explain something I know little about.) Articles by Katz, Brodgen, Ravenhill etc make good buffers in those situations.

I dislike talking about myself regarding this. It is too personal, and I think, has greater implications for the future than now. I am always reluctant to refer to myself as anything more than someone just trying to follow my Lord – barely a Christian. I guess when you’ve been mortified by the Lord (or by your own foolish impulsive words or actions) enough times, you end up like feeling like that.

You asked, what part of me is doing what I want, and what part is doing what God wants.

Well, I’m not sure, I keep asking God to reveal any discrepancy. I really want what God wants – the ingathering of saints – whatever it takes …. though, I know there is a part of me that craves for the comforts of this natural existence – eat and sleep – you know, like my cat. Though leaping in the grass is fun sometimes too – now that it is spring.

Anyway, it seemed like you kept touching on the prophetic in your comments so I thought it appropriate to dig in. I think that there are blessings in it: there is fellowship with one another – and also a deeper insight into your original topic of rest and “waiting room” – which is fellowship with the Lord.

Blessings in him,
Diane

Rahman wrote:
Bro. Aaron you wrote;
"I just finished read Letter To A Reluctant Prophet by Chip Brogdon, and here I am stumbling into this thread that I have put off looking into for a while now."

--- You didn't stumble here bro :-P You were led ---

Touche. Ahh...the Divine "stumble" of faith. Isn't faith exciting? You never know what you'll trip over ;-).

Bro. Aaron you wrote;
"And I have two questions, why did I put it off so long, and why have I put off looking into Brogdon for so long?"

--- If you truly don't have a nagging idea of "why" deep down inside, earnestly ask Holy Spirit - He'll tell you "why" ...

The question was kind of a longing rhetorical question. I've kind of given up asking God why. I tend to trust that He'll "guide my path through righteousness for His name's sake", after all He hath "holden me by (His) right hand, and afterward receiveth me into glory". If He wants me to know the details, He'll tell me when I need to know.

I know why I've been "shielded" from Brogden. I had some trials to endure before I could appreciate him. Oh, the loving kindness of my God, who knows how dumb I can be at times, and waits for me to catch up.

Rahman,

Thanks for posting this! You describe so well where I am at at the moment, except my circumstances are totally different. I get very weary praying for the prodigals in the family and wonder does God hear? Does he care? Of course he does and He does speak, but will they listen? is the difficult question where the answer appears to be 'no'. To realize I am NOT the HS and to back off and let Him work is easy and difficult at the same time because I want everythig to have been done yesterday!

Yes, waiting is difficult and while you wait the enemy comes along with temptations of questioning your worth to Christ, society, to the church and anyone else. Now I must wait some more, and more and more...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Sis D you wrote:
"Right now I feel a bit like I’m sitting in a shrink’s office – across the desk from Dr. Rahman – feeling at a loss to express what I’m thinking, even not really knowing what I’m thinking."

--- Amen ... i can in-turn identify with your "shrink" analogy with the questions you ask me ... But again i see it as Dr. Holy Spirit asking those questions thru you to make me think beyond where i am ... Bro. Rookie's questions affect me the same way ---

Sis D you wrote;
"My, aren’t we a stumbling bunch! But, at least, going in the same direction."

--- Praise His holy name, yes we are! ... Good thing we're on the straight and narrow, we could really stumble way off if we we're still on the broad and spacious ---

Sis D you wrote;
"Well, that article took me to one that perfectly suited for the moment: The Prophetic Savant This literary piece has "guts"! (If you know what I mean)"

--- Aaaaa-men! ... our Lord had someone send that to me a while back when i was in yet another of my funks re: Am i nuts or what? ... This writing freed me in a way that no other has so far ... i read it and at the very opening i saw myself ... it was yet another of those "mustard seeds" (but in this i found it a watermelon seed) that our Lord always sends me when i'm tired and want to give up, but can't ... i think you know how excruciating it is to want to give up, but can't ...

Quotes from Savant that freed me -

- What then is genius? Could it be that a genius is a man haunted by the speaking Voice [of God], laboring and striving like one possessed to achieve ends which he only vaguely understands?" - A. W. Tozer

- However it happened, for one moment at least, the clouds parted and the veil was rent, and he saw something that is unseeable; he heard something that is unhearable; Heaven itself was opened up to him, and he saw into another world. The thing he saw and heard now burdens him like a mantle that has been draped over his shoulders. He feels its weight, for it is with him day and night, whether he is eating or drinking, working or resting. It is the impression that everything around him is a lie, and what he has seen and heard is the Truth, and this Truth is not static, but it is living, growing, and increasing within him from the day it comes to him in the form of a seed.

For a long time he struggles to find words and vocabulary to express the inexpressible. He cannot explain why he feels the need to try and express it, but for some inexplicable reason something drives him to open his mouth, or take up his pen, and make it known. Whatever it is, it will not permit him to savor it or keep it to himself, and it seems intent on coming to the surface and interrupting the normal course of his life. This process can be frustrating and painful, so much so that he may give up several times, content to simply walk in what he has seen and heard and leave it at that.
But try as he might, he cannot run away from what he has seen and heard, and he cannot deny the compulsion to bring it forth.

- He cannot read the Scriptures as others do, for after only a few verses the Heavens are opened up to him again and he is lost in its depths. A single passage may keep him occupied for months as Heaven unfolds it to him, and he cannot tear himself away from it.

- His preaching is affected, because he cannot decide in advance what he will say, and even when he would like to bring forth something new and exciting, he usually ends up saying the same thing, like, "Repent!"

- When he leaves a place he almost never sees the result of his labor

- He cannot go through the motions of religion like most mortals. It is a dead, shallow thing to him because it cannot compare to the reality of what he has already experienced. He finds it difficult to listen to another person preach when he knows they have not yet ascended to the heights nor plumbed the depths that he has already navigated. And when he tries to lead them into these heights and depths himself he is often misunderstood or rejected altogether. So either he attends the meeting and suffers in silence, or stays home and suffers in solitude; but either way, he suffers.

- He is so at one with what he has seen that he speaks of it as having already happened, because he has, in essence, already experienced it and lived it. It is the Prophetic Tense, which calls those things that be not as though they were. In his world, the world of the Spirit, they exist already. We call it "prediction" because we cannot yet see it with our natural eyes, but he simply stands outside of Time and views Past and Future as one unbroken and continuous Present.

- He no longer trusts his natural ears, because the Heavenly Voice and the inner witness are more reliable. Thus, he is able to hear God speaking, while the rest of the crowd says, "It thundered!" or "It was an angel!" He is also able to hear when God is not speaking, and does not get carried away with the multitudes who claim to speak, see, and hear things from God when they have not heard or seen anything from Heaven. He cannot bear to listen to them.

- His concentration is affected in such a way as to make him appear obstinate and unyielding to others. The truth is that he is actually quite flexible and pliable before the Lord, but before man he is as solid and impenetrable as a rock. No amount of persuasion or argument from man will move him - but the slightest touch from the Lord will bring him to his knees. Having discovered the One Thing that is needed, he will tenaciously and ruthlessly shun the "many things" which crowd in to seek his attention, for he sees everything else as a distraction.

- Even his praying is affected, for he can no longer pray as he wills and for what he wants. He seemingly has no will of his own. Instead the Heavenly Voice bids him to pray with a Heavenly perspective, and all too often the Heavenly perspective is at odds with the Earthly perspective. So when his brothers and sisters pray for blessing and increase, he finds himself praying for destruction and decrease; and when they are resisting and praying against something, he finds himself asking God to perform the very thing the rest of the world is against. ---

Sis D you wrote;
"However, perhaps for me the real issue is more a desire to evade discussion of the prophetic rather than “being” it ...

... I dislike talking about myself regarding this ... I am always reluctant to refer to myself as anything more than someone just trying to follow my Lord – barely a Christian."

--- Aaaaa-men ... i too have learned to steer far clear from discussion of the prophetic, and have learned first hand here on SI the cost of daring to refer to oneself as a prophet ... Before i was dumb to both costs, but i praise Him that only He can "prove" by making events come to pass, and if it stumbles my brethren to not hearing then the title of calling is unimportant ... God Himself will evidence what we are, if in fact He's called us ---

Sis D you wrote;
"You asked, what part of me is doing what I want, and what part is doing what God wants.

Well, I’m not sure, I keep asking God to reveal any discrepancy. I really want what God wants – the ingathering of saints – whatever it takes …. though, I know there is a part of me that craves for the comforts of this natural existence"

--- Amen ... The question i now ask, in light of the previous, is how can we: Love God-THEN do what we want - if we're not "sure" what we want? ... See it's my knowing that all we saints are at least two parts that makes me more prone to: Love God? - Then do what He wants ... First off His word tells us ALL what He wants ALL OF US TO DO ... Very basic things like love Him, love our brothers/sisters, love our fellowman, confess His name before men (great-commision), study His word, aid the poor, etc ... But what to do
if you've been called to His special service, one of the four/five fold ministries, especially in one of the two unmentionable ones? ... i'd say within those two we haven't the slightest idea of what we want except to escape it, to get away from it, unless our wants become His wants so that He can show us ---

Sis D you finished;
"Anyway, it seemed like you kept touching on the prophetic in your comments so I thought it appropriate to dig in. I think that there are blessings in it: there is fellowship with one another – and also a deeper insight into your original topic of rest and “waiting room” – which is fellowship with the Lord."

--- Amen ... i can't help but continue to "touch on" what He's "touched me" with ... This touch has become an inextricable part of me ... And as to deeper insight into "rest" and "waiting room" this ...

This is the part that Holy Spirit (thru you sis D) has brought to my attention as to what He's doing in me in my "Waiting Room" ...

Quote from Savant;
- The prophetic savant bears a similar stigma. But if you engage him at all, you soon discover that [b] he sees all of this as absolutely normal; the way it is supposed to be. He no longer wishes for a normal life, because the life he has now IS normal: he has lost his
own life in exchange for a new life. He lives in the Heavenlies while he walks on the Earth. He does not think of himself as special, as anything other than a regular person,[/b] but often wonders aloud why others cannot see what he has seen when it is all so self-evident and plain -

What's outlined in bold is where He's brought/bringing me to right now for normal is never how i've described my saved life before, and as to wondering why others don't see i wouldn't either had He not chosen me to ... When He opens that door in front of me, and i walk thru it it will be completely in my "new" life (whatever He deems), His life for me, the residuals of the "un-rest" of my old life left behind on the floor of this "Waiting Room" ...

i thank our Lord, you sis D, and all you other saints whom He has brought into this discussion, for the teaching and uplift i've recieved thus far! ...

His strength to us all to continue the good fight!

Bro. Aaron you wrote;
"Touche. Ahh...the Divine "stumble" of faith. Isn't faith exciting? You never know what you'll trip over ."

--- Ha! ... ha! ... yeah sometimes "excruciatingly" exciting ---

Bro. Aaron you wrote;
"The question was kind of a longing rhetorical question. I've kind of given up asking God why. I tend to trust that He'll "guide my path through righteousness for His name's sake", after all He hath "holden me by (His) right hand, and afterward receiveth me into glory". If He wants me to know the details, He'll tell me when I need to know."

--- Praise God bro, i'm just now at such peace in Him ... It seems that it's taken me so long to stop asking God; Why? ... and How? ... and When? ... It feels wonderful to finally "rest" in Him! ---

Bro Aaron you wrote;
"Oh, the loving kindness of my God, who knows how dumb I can be at times, and waits for me to catch up."

--- Aaaaaa-men ... shall we all just begin to shout, praise and adore Him for His loving kindness to us "dumb" sheep? ---

Blessed be the name of our Lord God and His Christ!

Hi sis ginnyrose ... you wrote;
"I get very weary praying for the prodigals in the family and wonder does God hear? Does he care? Of course he does and He does speak, but will they listen? is the difficult question where the answer appears to be 'no'."

--- Sis i have a very good friend (sister) in our Lord who is going thru a similar situation with her estranged husband who is saved (tho many question it by his continued actions - i don't) but continues in an adulterous relationship and is addicted to crack ... She's been struggling in prayer and the claiming of victory for her husband and marriage for a long time now, and has been very verbal in expecting the victory ... Recently he got sick, had to have quadruple bypass surgery, and of course like so many of us when we get scared we run back to our Lord ... He did such, talked a good game, she took him back in in his recovery, and now but some four weeks away from such intense surgery he's back at his girlfriends house smoking crack anew ... Now my dear sister is at wits end again ... She's feeling pretty much like a fool for all the praying and prophesying to a positive outcome to her marriage, because this sister really don't believe in divorce + she still loves her husband, but now she's feeling really defeated ...

Now i don't believe that it's by accident our Lord has us in fellowship, and i've told her that if He's brought me to this place of "resting in Him" (since i have the tendency to exhort from the place He has me), then it was time for her to also "let go and let God" ... See the bottom line that our Lord has just recently shown me is that just becasue we can't see any positive outcome to our prayers in the natural, does'nt mean that in the spiritual He's not moving ... God does whatever He wants to do in the time frame He wants to do it, and the best that we can do is to keep on praying about situations that only He can do something about ... i believe as led by Holy Spirit to tell her as with David's praying for his child, if her husband ain't physically dead then keep on praying ... And if she's tired of praying then rest in our Lord and leave it up to Him (that's where i am right now) ... Of course she's having as hard a time with "resting" as i did when He first started me out, but by His making me an example she's beginning to secumb (bless His holy name) ---

Sis ginnyrose you wrote;
"Yes, waiting is difficult and while you wait the enemy comes along with temptations of questioning your worth to Christ, society, to the church and anyone else. Now I must wait some more, and more and more..."

--- Amen, this couldn't be said any better ... This type of questioning is what i was going thru, and verbatim what my sister in Christ said to me ... In fact she said, "It looks like the devil has won" ... At which point i said, "It ain't over till it's over" ... But here is rest; when we stop "waiting" and replace it with "trusting" that our Lord's will will be done in whatever circumstance we're praying about ... When i think of the word "wait" it makes me anxious, but when i think of the word "trust" it soothes me ...

Sis ginnyrose may our Lord Creator Spirit comfort you to quiet, soothing, "trust" in our only wise and true Savior Jesus Christ ... Amen

Ginnyrose said:

"Yes, waiting is difficult and while you wait the enemy comes along with temptations of questioning your worth to Christ, society, to the church and anyone else.

I was just sharing with a friend about this wonderful thread. She added a point:

[color=006600]When you come to a dead end, just wait! [/color]

Diane

--- Sis i have a very good friend (sister) in our Lord who is going thru a similar situation with her estranged husband who is saved (tho many question it by his continued actions - i don't) but continues in an adulterous relationship and is addicted to crack ... She's been struggling in prayer and the claiming of victory for her husband and marriage for a long time now, and has been very verbal in expecting the victory ... Recently he got sick, had to have quadruple bypass surgery, and of course like so many of us when we get scared we run back to our Lord ... He did such, talked a good game, she took him back in in his recovery, and now but some four weeks away from such intense surgery he's back at his girlfriends house smoking crack anew ... Now my dear sister is at wits end again ... She's feeling pretty much like a fool for all the praying and prophesying to a positive outcome to her marriage, because this sister really don't believe in divorce + she still loves her husband, but now she's feeling really defeated ...

Rahman, thank you. The prohesying notwithstanding and all the inherent let downs associated ...This is somewhat close to home though not to that degree.

God does whatever He wants to do in the time frame He wants to do it, and the best that we can do is to keep on praying about situations that only He can do something about ... i believe as led by Holy Spirit to tell her as with David's praying for his child, if her husband ain't physically dead then keep on praying ...

It could be said to be defiant praying;
[i]Despite it all I will pray anyway and always[/i]

Thanks brother.

Bro. Mike you wrote;
"The prohesying notwithstanding and all the inherent let downs associated ..."

--- Sadly i say amen to this ... How well i know so many false prophecies, so many let downs, so many prophecies yet hanging in the balance ... This has been another reason why i'd not been able to rest in our Lord, saying things out of my mouth that i believe He's said for me to say and them still hanging in the balance ... Then after such a long passing of time wondering if it truly is of Him, or did i somehow allow myself to get caught up in the Pentecostal hype, or worse yet just flat out been played by the devil ... Ughhhh, it's like having the sword of Damocles hanging over my head ... Only God Himself can give me rest in this, and He has ---

Bro. Mike you also wrote;
"Sometimes it's just good to hear things you may already know repeated in your hearing.

It could be said to be defiant praying;
Despite it all I will pray anyway and always"

--- Amen, as i said before "Every good and perfect gift ..."

Phil.4
[6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

If we believe and "trust" in this indisputable word of God we will have peace ... Doubt it, or try to make sense of it, we won't ...

Defiance against the odds seems to be a trait that many here on SI share in one way or another ... If it's of and for the glory of our Lord, then i pray that we having done all to stand will be empowered by His Spirit to stand some more!!! ... If it's not for His glory, and His alone, then i pray His same Spirit knock it down to correction!

Blessings of the perfect peace of Christ Jesus bro! --- :-D

[i][b]That once closed door in front of me is now standing wide open! ...[/b][/i]

i'm posting a Photoshop image (one i came across some time back) as representative of what i see in my spirit/vision ...

[b]THE OPEN DOOR[/b]
(click on image for enlargement)
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/reuben19027/album?.dir=/96a1re2

2007 is posted above the door as but the year beginning this door being opened to me ... i pray this "door" not only for me, but for every saint, for His Church (particularly here in America), that He summons us thru and away from a Loadicean past and to His future glory into the attributes of Philadelphia and Smyrna ...

Tho this door is now open i don't sense in my spirit that i'm just supposed to walk on thru it, nay - but much in the same way as when a door was opened to John (Rev.4:1) he had to wait for the "come up hither", so i still have to wait for Him to summon me thru ... i don't know exactly how He'll summon me thru so i'll not even waste time with my speculations, but i know in my spirit that it will be within this year ... No matter tho, just the mere fact that it's open is a soothing balm to my spirit ... i'm now experiencing a "relaxation" that i even feel in my body ... My tensions gone! ... i feel like i'm about to be embarked upon His ultimate purpose for my life ...

i have some christian friends who are very concerned about my spiritual/mental health, as some of you on SI might be also ...They don't see my "weirdness" as stemming from something sinister on my part, but that somewhere i've gotten off on a wrong track ... A saint prayed a prayer for me at the end of 2006 asking our Lord in 2007 to "break" in my life ...

1 - Every curse ...
2 - Every unscriptural prayer ...
3 - Every misunderstanding ...

In a wrong mind i would have taken afront to such a prayer, but i had to say amen because if i'm operating out of even one of these concerns (let alone all three) then God knows i surely want to be freed from ALL error (if this be so i trust Him to show me just how Rom. 8:28 is applied to me in this instance) ... So in a right mind i appreciate the love and concern of such a prayer, but i've come way to far on this mission to not have it play all the way out to conclusion ... By years end, yea - i believe even before, God will show whether it's Him operating in my life, or whether i'm in need of such serious spiritual re-adjustment ...

In the meanwhile i'm looking forward to being thrust single mindedly into "the work" ... Here's some info i've found on what it is to be presented an "open door" by God ...

[i][b]Abingdon Bible Commentary:[/b][/i]
[i][b][color=CC0000]An open door can indicate an opportunity for missionary effort as in 1 Cor. 16:9 ...[/color][/b][/i]

[i][b]Matthew Henry Bible Commentary;[/b][/i]
[i]1 Cor.16:9. A great door and effectual was opened to him; many were prepared to receive the gospel at Ephesus, and God gave him great success among them; he had brought over many to Christ, and he had great hope of bringing over many more. For this reason he determined to stay awhile at Ephesus.

- Note: Success, and a fair prospect of more, was a just reason to determine an apostle to stay and labour in a particular place. And there were many adversaries, because a great door, and an effectual, was opened.

- Note: Great success in the work of the gospel commonly creates many enemies. The devil opposes those most, and makes them most trouble, who most heartily and successfully set themselves to destroy his kingdom. There were many adversaries; and therefore the apostle determined to stay. Some think he alludes in this passage to the custom of the Roman Circus, and the doors of it, at which the charioteers were to enter, as their antagonists did at the opposite doors. True courage is whetted by opposition; and it is no wonder that the Christian courage of the apostle should be animated by the zeal of his adversaries. They were bent to ruin him, and prevent the effect of his ministry at Ephesus; and should he at this time desert his station, and disgrace his character and doctrine? No, the opposition of adversaries only animated his zeal. He was in nothing daunted by his adversaries; but the more they raged and opposed the more he exerted himself. Should such a man as he flee?

- Note: Adversaries and opposition do not break the spirits of faithful and successful ministers, but only enkindle their zeal, and inspire them with fresh courage. Indeed, to labour in vain is heartless and discouraging. This damps the spirits, and breaks the heart. But success will give life and vigour to a minister, though enemies rage, and blaspheme, and persecute. It is not the opposition of enemies, but the hardness and obstinacy of his hearers, and the backslidings and revolt of professors, that damp a faithful minister, and break his heart.[/i]

[i][b]Abingdon Bible Commentary:[/b][/i]
[i][b][color=CC0000]An open door can also be a God opened entrance to spiritual priveledge in Messianic fervor (marked by idealism and an aggressive crusading spirit) toward His glory ...[/color][/b][/i]

Is it Him in me, or me operating out of deluded self? ... After all these long years i'm about to soon find out, so in the meanwhile i continue to rest in - and wait on Him

[b]Happy 2007 All![/b] ... May this year mark the beginnings of weeping repentance back to our primal first love and works glorification of Him, Holy Ghost fired revival to His Church and the diligent reaping of the harvest of souls predistined and called as we already are ...

[i][b]Lord manifest Yourself in our lives, and in the land, in such ways that only those under the strongest delusion cannot attest to the thrusting of your unmistakable and almighty hand into the affairs of we wayward men ... This is my prayer in Jesus precious name, for His sake, the sake of the kingdom and His righteousness, and for the sake of all those who need to be made plainly aware that an eternal Hell waits for all who deny Him past their deaths in this period of grace ... Lord help us please, we are so in need of YOU! ... Amen[/b][/i]