Can Salvation be lost?

Hi
I just joined a calvary assembly of GOD curch las month. I was baptized in water(although I have been saved since 1993).As I am getting to know more about Pentacostals,I have been doing some researching and came across something on the internet which said that some pentacostal churches believe you can lose your salvation. Now I believe that once your name is written in the Book of Life, thats it! But my pastors wife emailed me to look at II Peter 2:20-22.It seems to suggest that salavation CAN be lost.Does anyone have any info on this.
Thanks!
John

Hi,

You might have just started a thread that will have a million responses, so before everyone goes all out, I will just give you Chuck Smith's feelings on this. He said that as long as you abide in christ, you are eternally saved.

Galatians 5:18-26

John,

Hebrews 10:26,27

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

Murray

You can loose your salvation, but not like you loose your car keys.

You walk awy from it and denie God as divorce is to marrage.

Say, you dissown your father and he would have an inheritance for you, but you will not take it.
Though he remains your father, it does not matter, for it is the relaition[u]ship[/u] that counts, not the biological relaition.
Or
You let your heart become so hard against your wife that you divorce her.
These are the same as when you loose your salvation.

BUT, you can not be born again [b]again[/b].
Once you loose it, your finished!

[b]Hebrews 6:4[/b]

[color=990000]For [b]it is impossible[/b] for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[b]:5[/b] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[b]:6[/b] [b]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance[/b]; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/color]

I realize this can easily turn into a battle of Bible quotes,and I apologize in advance for that.
I thought maybe someone out there experienced the same type of teaching in pentacostal churches.
I believe that even after we are saved,,we are still flesh and therefore sin still lives in us.If we fall into our old ways(or backslide) we have grieved the spirit,but have not lost our salvation.Isnt that what the parable or story of the prodigal son was about?

Yes,

I definitely have been taught that in the pentocostal church. I have gone to several church of God's, and they are very heavy into this teaching. I feel there has to be a medium. I hear a lot of preachers that sit there and condemn people all day long, and on the other corner I hear people that let sin thrive in their church.

We need to keep this in prayer and go to the source, The Word.

I have heard a lot of debates on this, and have swayed both ways on the issue, but I still have to agree with Chuck Smith's teaching on this.

John,

I am not looking to turn this into a battle of bible quotes. But the word is our authority on our relationship with God. If God tells me that I cannot DELIBERATELY keep on sinning or else I become his enemy, I believe Him.

I realize we sin unintentionally(Sins of Omission), like being ungrateful,etc. It is a question of sin being your master or Jesus being your master.

1 John 2

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

We know that we have to come to know him if we obey His commands. The man who says "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

God bless your hunger for truth John.

Murray

If you can choose your "salvation" then you can lose your "salvation". If you view salvation as accepting a gift that can be returned at anytime then that is something you can lose because it was never there in the first place.

Many people falsly view God with outstrecthed hands just begging people to take salvation from him. They feel that people can see it for what it is and take it or leave it simply at their own discretion.

When in reality, nobody wants his salvation (Rmns 3) at all but he he gives it freely to those whom he wishes. Then when our eyes are opened to this wonderful gift, we cling to it tightly and there is nothing that can remove it from us.

This type of salvation...the salvation that comes by grace through faith--not of works that no man may boast...cannot be lost.

This salvation, that is true salvation, is nothing that we earn and nothing that we deserve. This salvation that is solely based on the grace of God, cannot be lost by what we do because it was not given based on what we do.

If I cannot earn my salvation, why would I believe that I can lose my salvation?

Galatians 2:20 says, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Habbakkuk 2:4 says that the "righteous shall live by faith."

How can I be crucified with Christ with Christ living in me, living by faith and lose my salvation, my hope, my Lord? Impossible!

Does this mean that my faith never goes weak? Of course it does on occasion. But thankfully God has already planned for that!

Romans 8
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

Hebrews 7:24-26

24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

So, if I am weak then Jesus himself intercedes for me. So, if I live by faith and are called by God, and Jesus himself and the Holy Spirit are interceding for me...I will never fall! Because if I fall then that means Jesus has failed...which can never happen.

This is not to say that I am perfect and will never sin...but it does mean that I will never fall from grace and lose my salvation.

[sorry about the duplicate]

I am going to look for that Chuck Smith teaching.
Thanks to everyone for helping a brother out.
GOD Bless!

WORD!

.......sorry, had to do that.

I love you all.

In HIS Love,
Scroggins

I prefer to refer you to the words of Jesus:

John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He tahes it away (remove).

John 15:4 "Abide in me..." (why would He say that if it would be impossible)

John 15:6 "If a man does not abide in Me, he is cast uot as a branch..." and it ends up in the fire.

Who can this hapen to? The branch that is in Him. The rest of the chapter explains it even better as a whole. God bless you.

Well, I just read the Chuck Smith article on balance and I have to say that it gave me insight I never had before! I thank the person who recomended that.If uncertainty only makes us search the scripture deeper, than we are better for it.It is only when we are unwilling to believe something and never consider it, that we are in danger,I believe, of getting trapped by our own wrong interpretations.
GOD Bless!

This is taken from www.calvarychapel.com

Chuck Smith's book
Calvary Distinctions

11. Striking The Balance
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
II Timothy 2:15
An important characteristic of Calvary Chapel Fellowships is our desire not to divide God's people over non-essential issues. This is not to say that we do not have strong convictions. When the Bible speaks clearly, we must as well. But on other issues we try to recognize the Scriptural validity of both sides of a debate and avoid excluding or favoring those in one camp over the other.
An example of this kind of inclusiveness is found in our approach to the debatable issue concerning the ministry of the Holy Spirit. We don't take a typical Pentecostal view, nor do we take a typical Baptist view. The minute you set your position one way or the other, you've lost half of your congregation. Why would you want to lose half your congregation? Our desire is to be able to minister to as broad a group of people as possible. The minute we start taking hard-line positions on any of the non-foundational controversial issues, we alienate part of the people. In the essential doctrines of the faith, we must take a firm stand. But in the non-essential areas, we accept that people may have differing views, and we accept these in the spirit of grace. It's important to recognize that we can agree to disagree and still maintain a spirit of unity and love.

We do believe in the validity of the gifts of the Spirit, and that these gifts can be expressed today. But we don't believe in excesses that so often accompany a freedom in the use of the gifts of the Spirit. So we avoid the controversy.

If people want to speak in tongues, we encourage them to do so in a private devotional setting to assist in communicating their love, their praises, and their prayers to God. We look to I Corinthians 14 as our biblical example. We don't insist that a person speak in tongues as the primary evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We believe that there are other evidences that are more credible than speaking in tongues. As Paul said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." (I Corinthians 13:1). We don't emphasize tongues as the primary manifestation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but we look for love as the fruit of the Spirit. I believe that we can stand on a solid Scriptural basis doing that and, at the same time, encourage people to receive the gifts of tongues.

As Paul explained, you may use it for your personal prayer life and for your devotional life, singing unto the Lord. "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?" (I Corinthians 14:14-16). If you're in a public assembly with no interpreter present, and someone is speaking in tongues, how is a person sitting in the seat of the unlearned going to understand? You might well be praising God, but the other people aren't edified. We need to do all things decently and in order. In this area, we don't fit in the Pentecostal category, nor do we fit in the cessionist category that would deny any valid experience of the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit today.

Another example of maintaining a balance on debatable issues is our approach to Calvinism. This is an area that people get very emotional about. We're neither 'Five Point Calvinists', nor are we Arminian. We do believe in the security of the believer. We don't believe that you can lose your salvation because you lost your temper or told a lie and, as a result, need to go forward next Sunday night to repent and get resaved.

We believe in the security of the believer but we also believe in the 'perseverance of the saints.' We don't believe that because you are a saint you will necessarily persevere, but that you need to persevere because you're a saint. Jesus said, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31), and "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." (John 15:6-7). Jesus Himself is the One that brought up the possibility of a person not abiding in Him. So we seek to take a balanced position rather than getting on one side and pressing the 'Five Points of Calvinism.' When you take hard stands on these non-foundational issues, you'll just empty your church of all of those who have Methodist, Nazarene, and other Arminian-infiuenced backgrounds. Why would you want to do that?

The eternal security of the believer is a debatable issue at best. There are Scriptures on both sides. You have John 3:16. What does "Whosoever believeth in Him" mean? Does that mean that anybody can be saved? It appears to me to mean that, and so we don't take the hard-line Calvinistic position of limited atonement that says Jesus didn't die for everybody, only those who would believe in Him. We do not accept that believing in Him has nothing to do with human responsibility, but is totally the sovereign choice of God. This position states that God has ordained some to be saved and some to be lost. If God has ordained you to be lost, tough luck, buddy. There's nothing we can do. This is a denial of the free moral agency. Instead, we believe that God has given us the capacity of choice. The reason He gave us a capacity of choice is so that the love we express toward Him might be meaningful and real. That's the balanced position that we take.

There are people who are always trying to pigeon-hole Calvary Chapel. Do you believe in eternal security? I say, "Yes, of course I believe in eternal security. As long as I abide in Christ, I'm eternally secure." Now, dispute that. If you don't abide in Christ, are you secure? Can you have security outside of Jesus Christ? I don't know of any security outside of Jesus Christ. But I believe as long as I abide in Him, He's going to keep me from falling, He's going to present me faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. And no man can pluck me out of His hand. I believe that, and I experience God's security.

So often these issues come down to a matter of semantics. People end up dividing over the interpretation of a few words. We had a staff member here at Calvary who was very much committed to support groups. During his time with us he led many to faith in Christ. Unfortunately, we had a parting of the ways that left this man so bitter that he now belongs to a group called "Fundamentalists Anonymous." He is now actively encouraging people to abandon a biblically based faith in Jesus Christ.

Is he saved? In reality, he's an enemy of Christ. If I were an Arminian, I'd say he's backslidden. If I were describing him from a Calvinist position, I would say he was never saved. Now we're both describing the same man, but the terms by which we describe him create the division.

We recognize this fact. The man has turned his back on Jesus Christ. It's obvious. Is he backslidden, or was he ever saved? The problem is if I say he was never saved, then where's my security? How do I know I'm saved? He had the earmarks of being saved. He had a desire to serve the Lord. He was seeking to lead others to Jesus Christ. I desire to serve the Lord and I desire to lead others to Jesus Christ. So maybe I'm not saved. Now, that isn't security to me.

So, you see, it's a matter of semantics. How can we describe what we observe in a person's relationship with the Lord? The whole division is over whether I describe him as backslidden, or whether I just say he was never saved. If we divide, we naturally create a division. We drive half the people out of the church because I'm going to say he's backslidden and the next guy is going to say he was never saved. When we allow this kind of debate we divide the church.

That's why I don't take a dogmatic position on this because I believe that the Scripture teaches both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. If you take either of these positions to an extreme, to the denying of the other, then you've got a real problem because the Scriptures teach both. But then you might ask, How can we reconcile them?" I don't. I don't have to. God didn't ask me to. God just asked me to believe. When I come across a person living in fornication, in adultery, or walking after the flesh and he says, "Don't worry about me, man! I accepted Christ at a Billy Graham crusade when I was a kid." Yet the person is a drunkard and fornicator. But he says, "Once I've been saved I'm always saved! So don't worry about me." Believe me, I'm going to rattle that guy's cage as best I can. I'm going to take him to Galatians 5 where the Bible talks about the works of the flesh. At the end of that listing the Bible declares, "As I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:21). I'll take him to Corinthians and to Ephesians. I'll show him where those who are living after the flesh and devoted to living after the fallen nature's desires, are not going to inherit the kingdom of God.

Yet, on the other hand, if I'm speaking to saints with an oversensitive conscience who, every time they mess up and do something wrong, feel that they've lost their salvation, I'm going to take them to the Scriptures that give us the assurance of God's love. I'll show them how Christ is holding them and that no man can pluck them out of the Father's hand. I'm going to take them to the passages that will give them assurance.

So the position I take on the issue all depends on the condition of the person I'm talking to. I can take either side and argue it ad infinitum. I can trade Scriptures with people on both sides of the issue. I can let you choose what side you want, and I'll take the other side. I can produce as many Scriptures and make as good an argument as you can.

So the very fact that it is an argumentative issue demonstrates that there are two sides. If there was a clear definitive teaching, then there would be no argument. If we didn't have Scriptures that declare, "Come! And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely," (Revelation 22:17), then you'd have no argument. But the fact is that there is the clear teaching of choice given to us by God. He expects us to make that choice. "Choose you this day whom ye will serve," (Joshua 24:15). "How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him." (I Kings 18:21). But yet Jesus said to His disciples, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:" (John 15:16). There are two sides to this issue, and it's important that we not get caught in a hard-line position on one side to the exclusion of the other, because then you've effectively divided your congregation.

I, like every other student in Bible college, wrestled with this issue. I was reading Arthur W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God. I got so confused because Pink states that man has no choice in the issue of salvation. It is all up to God. There's no human responsibility. As I was reading the book, I got so confused that I finally stood up, took the paperback, and threw it across the room. I felt like Martin Luther throwing an ink well at the devil. I said, "God, I can't understand it." I was frustrated mentally. It was then that the Lord spoke to my heart and said, "I didn't ask you to understand it, I only asked you to believe My Word."

I rested from that point on. I still cannot in my mind rationalize the two positions. I can't bring the two together, which is the problem that we so often have. It's like a railroad track. The two rails are running parallel and if they come together you're in trouble. So I believe them both, even though I'm not able to reconcile them in my mind. But I don't have to anymore. I can be satisfied just to believe them without having to reduce them to the narrow limits of my intellect.

Trying to bring God within the confines of my intellect is a real lesson in frustration. Try to understand eternity! Try to understand infinity! Try to understand the limitlessness of space! Try to imagine where the edge of space is. How far do you have to go out before you see the sign that says, "Dead end. No exit. Nothing beyond this point"? We need to recognize that God is greater than what can be confined or understood in our mind. He said, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9). Now if God says that His ways are beyond our finding out, then it's an exercise in futility to try to find out. It's beyond our finding out.

We need to just accept the limitlessness of God. When I come to these crisis points now, those places where my intellect starts to hit a dead end, I simply stand there and worship the God Who is so awesome that I can't reduce Him to my understanding.

As you begin to minister, as you go through the Word, you will come across those Scriptures that speak of the sovereignty of God. When you do, teach it. When you come across those Scriptures that teach the responsibility of man, then teach that. In this way, you can be sure that the people are getting a well-balanced spiritual diet.

;-)

“What? Loose my Salvation? I don't think so, Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have of God, and you are not your own? For you are bought with a price (the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross) therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit which are Gods” (1 Cor. 6:19 & 20)

Jesus Christ purchased our freedom out of the slave market of sin. We were born as a slave to sin with a dead human spirit and condemned to the Lake of Fire.

“As by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death (spiritual) by sin,
and so death spread to all men…” (Romans 5:12)

“The wages of sin is death (spiritual) but the gift of God is eternal life.

Our sin problem must be solved before we can enter into Heaven because no sin is allowed in the presence of God. We must have righteousness (sinless perfection)
which is equal to Gods righteousness in order to live with God for eternity. We can do good works, go to church, give money, pray a dozen times a day, feed the poor, walk the isle, put on our pious face, get the rosy glow, jump up and down, speak in tongues, light candles, sing Do Lord, go to other countries and give kids new shoes, eat bird seed and lettuce leaves, bring someone to church, get baptized every time you change churches (in case the first one didn’t take) dedicate your life to Christ, rededicate your life to Christ (because the first one didn’t take), make Christ Lord of your life, bring a pot of beans to the church social,feel sorry for your sins, kick the devil out, confess your sins to another sinner who is just as bad a you, recite hundreds of false clichés but guess what, all of these things and anything else you do will not give you Gods perfect righteousness.

In other words our works cannot save us. Our attitude toward Jesus Christ is salvation. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:31) Notice that Paul here did not say “you might be saved if you meet certain conditions in the future.” He said “will be saved.” Salvation is a decision. It is a belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. It is not living a sinless life or a life of doing good works. There are no preconditions to be saved such as cleaning up your life or repenting of your sins.

Titus 3:5 tells us “Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us…

There are false teachers today who tell us that we are saved by Grace through faith but we can loose our salvation if we commit a BIG sin such as murder or if we sin enough small sins. God will get enough of it and take our salvation away.

Brother Logic wrote:

You walk awy from it and denie God as divorce is to marrage.

7 \t“For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
\tAnd people should seek the law from his mouth;
\tFor he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8 \tBut you have departed from the way;
\tYou have caused many to stumble at the law.
\tYou have corrupted the covenant of Levi,”
\tSays the LORD of hosts.
9 \t“Therefore I also have made you contemptible and base
\tBefore all the people,
\tBecause you have not kept My ways
\tBut have shown partiality in the law.”
10 \tHave we not all one Father?
\tHas not one God created us?
\tWhy do we deal treacherously with one another
\tBy profaning the covenant of the fathers?
11 \tJudah has dealt treacherously,
\tAnd an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem,
\tFor Judah has profaned
\tThe LORD’S holy institution which He loves:
\tHe has married the daughter of a foreign god.
12 \tMay the LORD cut off from the tents of Jacob
\tThe man who does this, being awake and aware,
\tYet who brings an offering to the LORD of hosts!
13 \tAnd this is the second thing you do:
\tYou cover the altar of the LORD with tears,
\tWith weeping and crying;
\tSo He does not regard the offering anymore,
\tNor receive it with goodwill from your hands.
14 \tYet you say, “For what reason?”
\tBecause the LORD has been witness
\tBetween you and the wife of your youth,
\tWith whom you have dealt treacherously;
\tYet she is your companion
\tAnd your wife by covenant.
15 \tBut did He not make them one,
\tHaving a remnant of the Spirit?
\tAnd why one?
\tHe seeks godly offspring.
\tTherefore take heed to your spirit,
\tAnd let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
16 \t“For the LORD God of Israel says
\tThat He hates divorce,

Is this the type of divorce you are speaking of?

In Christ
Jeff

Right On MrBillPro!!
I agree 100%.You gave scriptual backup which is what I needed. I believe there are times of backsliding,but as you said,"Paul here did not say “you might be saved if you meet certain conditions in the future.” He said “will be saved.” "
I believe in a judgement for believers as well as non believers alike.

Everybody has their own interpretations that can only be revealed by constant studying and praying.I thank GOD for this board. It makes me want to know my bible.
GOD bless

Aman or Amen or Awoman or Awomen or even Asatan have anything to do with salvation. It is All God Our Father, All Christ our Life, All the Holy Spirit our Teacher. Can we choose to go to Hell? No, that was already chosen by one Adam in the garden. Can we choose our own salvation? No, that was already chosen by God by Christ on the Cross. This pretty much leaves us out of the whole equation does it not. Wow, what a blow to man's integrity and self righteousness. If we have no nothing, sip, Nada, can't, won't and never will to do with anything in our selves that brings us to godliness. What is left? Only One Thing, God wants children in His House. God and God alone can make children from His Seed. That Seed is Christ Himself. God chose from before the foundation of the world as we know it now, that we should be predestinated to have His Seed in us which is Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Who's pleasure, Who's will, Who's Seed, Who's Heaven, Who makes us holy, who makes us without blame, Who's adoption, By His Christ, Who are we adopted to and for, again for Who's pleasure, Who's will.

Who can loose all this, which is called salvation? If I can loose it that make me greater than God. I don't think so.

God will never abort one of His Own children only man in his Petty control over his own flesh does that.

If we can't attain our own salvation how can we loose what we never had in the first place. We will never loose the Salvation of God, for it is His Salvation not ours.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Has He come, is He in you, Can you loose Him, Is He now your Spirit, Is He now your Life? How can so great a salvation be lost? Impossible.

Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Even if we neglect this salvation we cannot escape. Those that neglect will have to learn Christ when He calls, Those that don't neglect and embrace this salvation will learn Christ even while on this earth. Quickened.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

We cannot get out of His Hands so don't even try.

In Christ: Phillip

Sin cannot and should not be allowed to be actively present in a church.

I do believe that if you abide in christ you are saved, BUT, If you are actively participating in sin, than obviously you are not saved. We will know them by their fruits.

I have a Baptist Grandmother who tells me that my cousin is saved, when I know he actively participates in drugs, parties etc. :-?

Do I believe he is saved? NO
Could he have been? YES, because I knew the old cousin, and he was a good example of a christian. Do I know people that fall? YES

I have participated in sin, And I knew without a shadow of a doubt,that if I were to die on the spot, that I would have woke up in HELL!

We must abide in christ to be eternally saved, we cannot have a free pass and say we are just saved forever no matter what, because their are too many verses in the bible that tell us these things wont enter the kingdom of heaven:
1 corinthians 6:9-11
Galatians 5: 18-23
We cant interprit these scriptures any different. We must remeber that we are the temple of the holy spirit, and we were bought at a price, and repentence should a constant focus in our lives.

Like I said in my earlier post. I am not in any camp for either side, I am just trying to show both sides of the playing field here.

I love you all greatly,

god bless

Who does the abiding first?

1 John 2:20-27 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Don't be deceived or seduced. " But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you. Who first does the abiding?

In Christ: Phillip

Logic said:

You can loose your salvation, but not like you loose your car keys.

First of all, I love that statement!

However:

Once you loose it, your finished!

I'm not sure about!

I don't pretend to be a sholar of any description, or a paid-up member of either side of this debate, but I am puzzled by this statement. Obviously representatives from both sides of this issue have Scripture from which they derive their opinions (hopefully), and I can see how Heb. 6 v. 4-6 could lead to the second statement I have quoted.

Logic - do you mean by this statement that you can lose your salvation, and then desire to regain a relationship with God by faith in Jesus, but be unable to do so?

If so, then I cannot see how that can be so, when the Bible continues to say whoever believes, trusts and lives for Jesus is saved.

If you mean someone can come to the place where they are no longer able to repent (as per Heb. 6 v. 6 that you quoted), I can agree; but if you mean that someone can come to a point where Jesus will turn them away because of sins they have committed, and are sincerely repentant of, I cannot. I don't see how He can reject somebody who sincerely comes to Him in faith & repentance, when the invitation is to all, to come to Him.

Blessings,

Dom

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jhn 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Jhn 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jhn 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
8-)

Hello...

[i]Can salvation be lost? [/i]
That question has been debated for years (including several lively debates on SermonIndex).

But here is another question to consider:
Suppose a person truly comes to Christ, truly has a salvation experience, truly and humbly seeks the Lord daily, and even ministers in His Name. What happens if such a person falls back into the things of this world? Suppose they fall into a sinful lifestyle (including sexual sins, lust, hatred, lying, etc...), a lazy lifestyle (neglect of Christ, the Word, prayer, their family, etc...), a heretical pattern of beliefs (such as "Christian" mysticism), and/or eventually, they simply discontinue their fellowship with Christ. [i]If that person dies in such sin, will that person be counted among the righteous[/i]?

If a person that once came to Christ and walked with him, turns back to their former life (or even a new lifestyle of sin), and then dies in such sin, will that person be considered a sheep or a goat? What if a once-humble pastor is caught in an addiction to gross lust and pornography for years, and he dies in this sin, does he go to be with Jesus?

Any thoughts?

:-)

DomSpencer wrote:

Logic wrote:
Once you loose it, your finished!

I'm not sure about!

I don't pretend to be a sholar of any description, or a paid-up member of either side of this debate, but I am puzzled by this statement. Obviously representatives from both sides of this issue have Scripture from which they derive their opinions (hopefully), and I can see how Heb. 6 v. 4-6 could lead to the second statement I have quoted.

Logic - do you mean by this statement that you can lose your salvation, and then desire to regain a relationship with God by faith in Jesus, but be unable to do so?

If so, then I cannot see how that can be so, when the Bible continues to say whoever believes, trusts and lives for Jesus is saved.

If you mean someone can come to the place where they are no longer able to repent (as per Heb. 6 v. 6 that you quoted), I can agree; but if you mean that someone can come to a point where Jesus will turn them away because of sins they have committed, and are sincerely repentant of, I cannot. I don't see how He can reject somebody who sincerely comes to Him in faith & repentance, when the invitation is to all, to come to Him.

Blessings,

Dom

But he never found it.

Sir Thomas Scott,
Once president of the English Lower House said: "Up until this time, I thought that there was no God neither Hell. Now I know and feel that there are both, and I am delivered to perdition by the righteous judgment of the Almighty."

He proclaimed the knowlege of GOD but couldn't find the faith to repent.

The description of the unpardonable sin is a sin so grievous that when committed it cannot be repented of, cannot be forgiven and the perpetrator cannot be cleansed of all unrighteousness as 1John 1:9 promises.

This sin leads to eternal condemnation – hell. This is a couple of testimonies.

The gut-wrenching truth of these desperate souls was their complete knowledge of their sin, the fact that they had said “No” to the Holy Spirit’s call to salvation and subsequently had their hearts hardened to the point where there was no turning back. No chance to make retribution. They were damned and they knew it and they were terrified.

One might ask if they knew of this, why couln't they just trust that God would forgive then since the Bible says HE would?

Read the words of a young man in an account who, after being told he was dying responding to his doctor’s beseeching that he could come to salvation in this eleventh hour:

"My eleventh hour," he rejoined, "was when I had that call of the Spirit. I have had none since and never again shall not have. I am given over to be lost. Oh! I have missed it! I have sold my soul for nothing -- a feather -- a straw -- undone forever!"

This was said with such indescribable despondency, that nothing was said in reply. After lying a few moments, he raised his head, and looking all around the room as if for some desired object, he buried his face in the pillow, and again exclaimed in agony and horror, "Oh! I have missed it at last!" and died.

Notice this similar account and the realization of a hardened heart:

Some one else gives the following account of what he witnessed. He says:
"I went to see William Pope, and as soon as he saw me he exclaimed, 'You are come to see one who is damned forever!'

I answered, 'I hope not; Christ can save the chief of sinners.'

He replied, 'I have denied Him, I have denied Him; therefore hath He cast me off forever! I know the day of grace is past, gone -- gone, never more to return!'

I entreated him not to be too hasty, and to pray.

He answered, 'I cannot pray; my heart is quite hardened, I have no desire to receive any blessing at the hand of God,'
and then cried out,
'Oh, the hell, the torment, the fire that I feel within reel Oh, eternity.' eternity! To dwell forever with devils and damned spirits in the burning lake must be my portion, and that justly!'

We read these accounts and we think: Surely one can be saved if one knows how lost he is. If one knows the way to salvation then why not choose it?

But the choice was made when the Holy Spirit called, presented the Truth, and the individual refused. A hardened heart that could no longer be circumcised, could no longer be redeemed, and was condemned to outer darkness.

NO!!!

I dont believe that

I feel if they committ such sins, they obviously arent saved, but at the same time, I dont feel we can tell someones family we know that since they killed themselves, that they werent saved. SO, in all reality, I guess I'm not too sure on this issue.

But read those scriptures I posted earlier in galations, and 1 corinth, as well as john and Romans.

what does everyone else think on this issue?

I guess I'm still open to the scriptures on this. does anyone have any references?

Someone wrote:

I agree 100%.You gave scriptual backup which is what I needed. I believe there are times of backsliding,but as you said,"Paul here did not say “you might be saved if you meet certain conditions in the future.” He said “will be saved.” "

Romans 8:

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

This is a conditional statement. What choice does Paul present to the brethren?

In Christ
Jeff

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Yes, it does say you will die but it sure don't say when you do your going to Hell, once saved always saved are Jesus at the cross was all in vain.

1) to die

a) of the natural death of man

b) of the violent death of man or animals

c) to perish by means of something

d) of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted

e) of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell

Yes, I can read all you definitions of die here, but you can't add to the word and the word say's you will die show me were it say's you will did and go to hell, that exact scripture, it's bad enough that "none" of really know scriptures but God, if we did there would be no scripture fighting here "that's what I call it" but it's really bad when we start altering them.Bottom line we all have our own beliefs but "I personally cannot loose my salvation" and that is what I am going with, heck if we fought scriptures enough it might get to the point there is no salvation. :-?

The issue of once saved always saved essentially boils down to this: can you continue on in unrepentant sin once you are saved, and still be saved?

I believe many people have a false sense of what salvation is. Many of it simply think of it as being delivered from the fate of hell and given the fate of going to heaven. But if you think of salvation primarily in these terms, you are mistaken.

What did Jesus come to do? To save us from hell? NO! When Joseph was told about Mary's conception through the Holy Spirit, the angel of the Lord told him, "She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt 1:21)

If you closely study the Scriptures, line upon line, precept upon precept, you will find that salvation in the Scriptures is primarily thought of in terms of salvation... not from hell... but from SIN. But to talk to many proponents of once saved always saved, this concept of salvation is seldom ever mentioned, and seldom ever understood.

Forgiveness and righteousness are not simply judicial terms that declare those guilty as being now not guilty. There is that aspect of forgiveness. But when God declares somebody not guilty, they actually become what God says they are. As Isaiah said, God's word will not return void, it will accomplish what it sets out to do. So when God declares you "righteous," you actually are what God declares you to be... the very righteousness of Christ.

Forgiveness actually makes a difference. If you were a billion dollars in debt to somebody, and were slaving away working 80 hours a week in order to pay that debt, and suddenly you were forgiven of that debt, would you continue to work like a dog? Of course not. So it is with us, who are in debt to God because of our sin. But in Christ, God has forgiven us our debt. So, how can you and I ever remain the same?

(just some thoughts)

Yes, I can read all you definitions of die here, but you can't add to the word and the word say's you will die show me were it say's you will did and go to hell, that exact scripture

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Please read the book of Revelation. Chapter 2 and 3.

How would the prodical son gotten his robe and his ring on his finger, had he not made a decision to leave the swine and come back to the father?

Do think Ananias and Sapphria went to heaven?

I think not.

It all comes down to a decision.
Follow christ or not

By the way, the definition of Die is taken from www.blueletterbible.org, that is the meaning in greek.

I think this is the best explanation I have ever found and I agree with this 100%

Fortunately whether you believe you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Your salvation isn’t dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.

The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Rom. 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Rom. 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).

There are on the surface good verses for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Pet. 2:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 10:26; 6:4_6; Ps. 69:28, and there are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27_28; Heb. 13:5; Matt. 7:21_23; 1 John 2:19; Rom. 8:38_39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God, only in our uninspired misunderstanding.

It is my opinion, and I stress opinion, that it is not possible to lose one’s salvation. I base this on scriptures that seem to have a more "eternal" perspective on them. For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). They were never known, that is, they were never saved although they appeared, from the human perspective, to be saved. Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life" (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish.

If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39). I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective, that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6). However, 1 John 2:19 says in dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us," (NASB).

I see this verse saying two things: First, that if it appears that false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, they will remain in the faith.

Nevertheless, there are different positions on this issue. One position states that it is possible to lose your salvation, but only if you want to. In other words, having been set free from sin, the person is then able by an act of will to deny the Lord and desire not to be a part of Him any longer.

Another position states that it is possible to lose your salvation if you sin too much. Then you need to go and confess your sin and get saved again. This has obvious problems because it could lead to someone trusting in his works and God’s grace to be saved.

Another position states that it is not possible at all to lose your salvation, that because Jesus has redeemed you and you are a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) you cannot, then, turn your back on God. Since attaining salvation did not depend on anything you did, keeping it does not depend on anything you do, then also, losing it can’t occur because of anything you do.

Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.

Very, Very Good Mr.Billpro:

Me tooooooo. 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

Even though we have been anointed by Him in us, and no man can give this anointing, so the anointing must be Christ in you. If He lives in us and by His anointing He is there. How can a human being a little lower that the angles with no power when it comes to spiritual things even think he could reject the Holy One that is truth and not a liar, how could you send Him away, the biggie is why would you want to send Him away. This kind of thinking is illogical and just plain stupid. Maybe Satan thinks we are that stupid but I don't think so, especially since Christ in us has already defeated him and he has no power over us. All he can do is lie, and with the Truth in us, Christ makes him look stupid.

I too know by the The Christ in me that I will never loose my salvation. Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There is no law that says I can loose my salvation which is in Christ and not myself. Even if there were I could not break it, for I am dead to it.

This I say, I can be righteous if by the Law I can get rid of Jesus Christ and not have salvation. This is what must be done to loose ones salvation. I don't think so. The only way this could be done is to never have had it in the first place.

In Christ: Phillip

Amen Mr. Pro,

God Bless and I look forward to seeing you all in heaven.

Hi KingJimmy...

The issue of once saved always saved essentially boils down to this: can you continue on in unrepentant sin once you are saved, and still be saved?

I believe many people have a false sense of what salvation is. Many of it simply think of it as being delivered from the fate of hell and given the fate of going to heaven. But if you think of salvation primarily in these terms, you are mistaken.

What did Jesus come to do? To save us from hell? NO! When Joseph was told about Mary's conception through the Holy Spirit, the angel of the Lord told him, "She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt 1:21)

If you closely study the Scriptures, line upon line, precept upon precept, you will find that salvation in the Scriptures is primarily thought of in terms of salvation... not from hell... but from SIN. But to talk to many proponents of once saved always saved, this concept of salvation is seldom ever mentioned, and seldom ever understood.

To me, we must search for an answer to this question: [i]Is a person currently living in sin truly saved?[/i]

We will always hear someone say, "How can you turn away from Christ once you've known Him?" But from personal experience, I can vouch that the enemy is constantly attacking believers with temptations. How many believers have you known that have walked with God, only to "fall away" on account of a sin that they could not or would not forsake? God has given us a free will -- allowing us to decide whether or not we will trade our relationship with Christ for the temporary pleasures of sin for a season.

To live in continual sin all the while openly proclaiming the concept of [i]eternal security[/i] seems rather offensive to the precious blood of Christ that was shed to save us from our sins. In fact, it seems to cheapen the Blood of Christ and seemingly insults the Spirit of Grace (Hebrews 10:26-31).

And of course, we should never walk away from the Lord. Is it possible to walk away from Him? Remember the words of 2 John 1:8-11...

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 [b]Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. [/b]
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

On a side note, KingJimmy's words remind me that Leonard Ravenhill has a wonderful message called "[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=1]A Pure Heart[/url]" ([url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=615]part 1[/url] and [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=616]part 2[/url]). It is one of my favorite messages from Brother Ravenhill. There is also a message called "[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3857]The Shocking Sin of a Perfect Heart[/url]" by David Wilkerson that sort of covers this topic quite well.

:-)

SI members,

I believe you can lose your salvation:

"IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, IF THEY FALL AWAY, TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO REPENTANCE, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Hebrews 6:6

The people mentioned in that verse are not mere pretenders but actual partakers, ie.(shared in the Holy Spirit).

I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:5

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons, and perform many miracles?" Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" Matthew 7:15

They want to be teachers of the law, but do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. 1 Timothy 1:7

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matthew 18:6

Nothing can seperate us from the love of God when we abide in Him. But if we don't......

Murray

murdog wrote:
SI members,
I believe you can lose your salvation:Murray

That's OK Murry we won't hold that against you even if we don't. And you like everyone else you have a right to your opinion. :-)

So I personally will just stand on this thought below:

Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.

John Wesley once said, "We know no gospel without salvation from sin." I must say 1000 times, amen. Frankly, if you are preaching a gospel of salvation from hell without salvation from sin, you are preaching a FALSE gospel.

Keith Daniel once addressed this issue well, and said of faith, "you are not saved by works, but you are not saved unless your faith WORKS."

Sadly, once saved always saved commonly teaches that discipleship is an entirely optional way of life, when Christ taught it as the only way to life. The Scriptures know nothing of salvation outside of discipleship. Is this not what Christ said when he said "Whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it?"

John Wesley,Keith Daniel,Spurgeon, Wilkerson,Tozer,Ravenhill,Moody etc. Bless there hearts, but I always go by what Jesus Christ said can go wrong there. :-)

I'm new here but felt the need to jump in real quick------ some scriptures that must apply (i must say that I strongly supported that salvation could be lost---because I thought that would promote holiness and 'security' would produce sinfulness)

Alright the parable of the sower
4 hearts the second example on shallow ground is the "proffessing" Christian who looks genuine but doesn't last (how long? it doesn't say) but the real Christian will bear fruit and endure to the end.
People have quoted I John 2 but have seem to left out some verses that apply
I John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Consider what this means, the proffessor again didn't endure but it seems that it sure "looked" like they were with them.

Romans 8:30
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God justifies and God sanctifies, without justification there is no sanctification and without justification there is no sanctification.

Willful, habitual, sin without repentance is the mark of the hypocrite, but we all whether in deed or thought sin willfully but we are convicted, but we are broken and thus we seek God

COnsider also that what we see are and what God sees are often treated different in the word of God. Like James' works and faith doesn't contradict Paul's faith and grace. God's view: faith Our view: works God knows already those whom are His even if believers are fooled but sometimes we can see that someone is not genuine because their is no fruit

Gotta go God bless who holds you, who secures you?

Mat 25:14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a
man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents.

Mat 25:17 And likewise he that [had received] two, he also gained other two.

Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.

Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mr. Billpro,

how do you interpret this scripture?

God Bless you Brother,

boomatt

King Jimmy,

I totally agree with you, it is salvation from sin and eternal life.

Murray

boomatt wrote:
Mr. Billpro,
how do you interpret this scripture?

God Bless you Brother,

boomatt

How do I interpret any scripture should be the question, since it called the "living" word of God I read it and listen to what "God" is telling me personally through that scripture. If we really believe it's called the Living word of God the same exact scripture might say one thing to me one day and something different the next day and I personally believe this is what God intended, or it would not be called the "living" word. As for as what any scripture anyone posts about salvation, I totally believe "MY" personal salvation is totally between God and I and that's for the record and I totally believe once saved always saved and that is what God tells me, now if you want to argue or debate that with God that is you business and that is between you and God. :-D

It's like what I posted here earlier, we are looking at scripture from a human prospective and unless there is a perfect human here to interpret the scriptures for us, any scripture we read and try to figure out can be fallible on our part this is fact, so unless Jesus Christ himself post an opinion here everything else is really just opinions right? and not necessary the exact meaning of that scripture.

[b]Eze 3:20[/b] [color=990000]Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.[/color]
[b]Eze 18:24 [/b] [color=990000] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. [b]:25[/b] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[b]:26[/b] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.[/color]

Those scriptures were before there was even a sacrifice for our sins isn't that old Testament? how can they be related to salvation after the sacrifice? there was no salvation achievable yet.Just wondering.

MrBillPro wrote:

Those scriptures were before there was even a sacrifice for our sins?

[b]Revelation 13:8[/b] [color=990000]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of [b]the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world[/b]. [/color]

isn't that old Testament? There was no salvation achievable yet.

The only difrence between the Old Testament and the new Testament is that the new is written on our hearts and not on stone.

All men are only condemned or justified by God in the New Testament for their rejection or accepting of Christ
and
in the Old Testament They were only condemned or justified by God for their [b]unbelief and disobedience or belief and obedience[/b] to HIM. (See Romans & 1:18-20, 2:14, 15)
[b]Galatians 3:6[/b] [color=990000]Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[/color]
[b]Job 19:25[/b] [color=990000]For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:[/color]
And also for the non-Jews
[b]Jonah 3:5[/b] [color=990000]So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.[/color]
Their fast was the obedience.
Before the flood they all believed for it was plain to all since Adam would have been alive with them, or he would have been known for his fame of being the first man ever created.

how can they be related to salvation after the sacrifice?.

Notice that He will judge [b]his[/b] people.

for the true believer, absolutely not. for the religious gameplayer, true saving grace should be questioned. just stick with jesus and we really should have no problem. we must look at all these questions through the lens of christ. 8-)

How do I interpret any scripture should be the question, since it called the "living" word of God I read it and listen to what "God" is telling me personally through that scripture. If we really believe it's called the Living word of God the same exact scripture might say one thing to me one day and something different the next day and I personally believe this is what God intended, or it would not be called the "living" word. As for as what any scripture anyone posts about salvation, I totally believe "MY" personal salvation is totally between God and I and that's for the record and I totally believe once saved always saved and that is what God tells me, now if you want to argue or debate that with God that is you business and that is between you and God.

Mr. Billpro,

I was not trying to debate you. I was just wondering how you interpret these scriptures. I want to see your perspective on this?

Have a good day brother.

Brother Bill wrote:

The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Rom. 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Rom. 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).

It is not we who convince ourselves of this fact. In all of Scripture it is God who reveals His promise to you. This promise has manifestations which become the fruit of the Spirit. Convincing oneself according to the carnal mind can not please God...

As Brother Phillip writes always... It is Christ in you...He Himself through the Spirit seals those that are His...we who are His know His voice...this is the origin of the faith that saves...

In Christ
Jeff

I sometimes need reassurance that i am saved as roman says it is your spirit that tells this question if i am not fully saved. I do not want to decieve myself.
I want more and more to know the glory of the living god and be in no doubt that I am and others are saved.I do not want any doubt in my life
Jesus help
Dom

Luke 8:16 “No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light. 18 Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.”

In this Scripture, there is a warning...18 "Therefore take heed how you hear...

The things which divides us is found in this warning. Denominations exist because of this. Many doctrinal arguements finds it source in how we hear.

If Christ's voice is heard, unity will manifest itself because of the source from which faith is created in us. The Holy Spirit gives to us what is of Christ. It is we who must submit and listen carefully to what He says.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Dom wrote:

I sometimes need reassurance that i am saved as roman says it is your spirit that tells this question if i am not fully saved

2Tim. 2:11 This is a faithful saying:
\t\tFor if we died with Him,
\t\tWe shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
\t\tWe shall also reign with Him.
\t\tIf we deny Him,
\t\tHe also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
\t\tHe remains faithful;
\t\tHe cannot deny Himself.

He remains faithful always to those who seek Him. Today is always the day of salvation.

2Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

God Bless
Jeff

AMEN

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The prayer has been answered, Yes? If it be the Holy Spirit is in us, that is the Comforter, which is parakletos, which is teacher, intercessor, consoler:--advocate, comforter.

What is He to teach us? John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Why would Christ want to be in us? The Father also wants to be in us. This is our new birth, Christ Jesus in us, The Father in and The Holy Spirit in us teaching us all things Jesus is saying and even more. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Teacher: John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The Comforter will show us Christ and the Father.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Even things that we don't understand of know will be revealed to us: Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
How are we perfect? Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. This has happened when we believe and that Which is Perfect is born again in us. 1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. We are no longer in Part for that which is Perfect has come. Is He in us? Is He Perfect?

Again: Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

How do we know? By the Christ that is in us and by The Holy Spirit revelation of this truth. Christ In you the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Pray for the salvation of Jews and every person that has been given to Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Here's a question

If you are either saved for good or never saved at all........what do you make of these people?

2 Pet 2:20-22
20\tFor if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21\tFor it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22\tBut it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(KJV)

Are they
A. People who have never been saved that had once escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,who knew the way of righteousness, and were washed.

or are they......
B. Christians who once again were entangled in the pollutions of the world. Who would have been better off not knowing the way of righteousness, and have returned to their wallowing in the mire.

Or could it be the natural understanding........
C. They were once saved and had at one time escaped the pollutions of the world but got entangled in them again. And they are now worse off than they were before. Once saved and now lost.

I choose answer C!!

IN the whole context of 2 Peter 2 he is speaking of false teachers. These are apostates who deny the Lord and His redemptive work. And their condition grows worse and worse.

Peter is not addressing their state as regenerated believers or unregenerated. He is speaking of their way and their apostacy from the truth and holy commandment delivered to them. They have heard the truth, known the Truth, and even made an outward "commitment" to the truth. But these have turned from it, it has not become their reality. But have forsaken what was delivered to them and chosen to perpetuate heresy denying the Lord and His redemption.

vs. 22 Speaks of a dog returning to his own vomit and a sow after washing, returning to wallowiing in the mire.

Being a dog signifies his condition as unregenerated. He does what he does becasue it is his nature. Washing and wallowing signifies outward washing and wallowing.

It is a difficult passage regarding OSAS But it must be understood in light of all the other scripture conserning the permanence of salvation and the Eternal Life recieved through redemption and regeneration.

As Tozer says, "It is not a matter of "It is written," but a matter of "it is written and again it is written". No truth stands alone and a truth made to stand alone often does not stand straight."

Our understanding of salvation must come from the whole body of scripture and the revelation of the New Testament and not be derived from one part which has a particular emphasis.

If you are conserned as to whether or not you have lost your salvation and are a heretic, then you still have it.

It is those who are "daring, self willed" who should be conserned but it is they that are not conserned.

No genuine born again regenerated believer will be found denying the Lord's redempion. The Life within him will not allow it. IN my opinion.

Graftedbranch

what about solomon?

surely we know he truly tasted the Lord. he was used to write a few books in the bible. we also know towards the end of his life that he was lead astray by his wives into worshipping false idols!

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

may we all see the need of abiding in Him daily lest we fall.

Matthew 26:41

41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

what is Jesus saying here?
we must daily watch and pray that we may be lead by the Spirt. if we are not watching and praying (abiding) we will easily fall back into the flesh and be overtaken by temptation because our flesh is weak.

It is evident in the bible that salvation can be lost.

Jesus talked about how people will come to him on Judgement Day and say "we've done great things in your name. We've cast out demons, healed the sick, done many miracles,etc." And Jesus said to them "depart from me I never knew you".

How could of they gotten those gifts of healing and miracles signs without being saved or knowing God at first? It is that at one time they were saved and living for God and even developing gifts given by the Holy Spirit and then they began to worship their gifts and forsake God. So thats why God forsaked them, because they forsaked God. We have to remember that God is Love, but also Just.

What about in Revelations when Jesus was speaking to the churches? He told many of them to repent or he will remove his lampstand from them. His lampstand is his annointing, his spirit. How can one be born of God if his spirit does not live in him?

What about when Paul spoke in 2 Corinthians 8:5 telling them to exam themselves to be sure their in the faith. He wasn't talking about certain people in the church, he was talking to the whole church, christians. Why did Paul say that? Because he knew that one could be close with God and gradually fall away. He knew that even strong christians could be deceived, for thats why he spoke about heresy in the church, other christs, and other gospels.

The majority of revivals in history begin with people in the church getting saved. People who thought they were saved, but they were far from God and beginning to exam themselves and see they have fallen from the faith. From that the church awakens and the fallow ground is broken and revivals comes and God can now use his people.

It all boils down to this: there is no salvation outside of discipleship.

Lavish formulas and sayings have been created to try to say otherwise, but, this is the essence of the gospel through and through. Anything that says contrary is a false gospel.

Thanks KingJimmy,

That's true. Can I be a follower of Jesus and not really follow Him? To be a disciple means that I follow in His footsteps. If I'm not doing that how am I a disciple?

King Jimmy,

Well put. Of course salvation can be lost. I can't believe it took sixty responses to get to King Jimmy's answer.

Murray

If salvation were of myself, then I could and most assuredly would loose it. When God gives birth to a new believer, He is not an abortionist. Once saved by God, always saved by God. Once saved by man, salvation lost by man.

In Christ: Phillip

How can The Salvation of God be Lost? If it can be lost then the Cross was just a work of futility on the Part of God and His Christ.

Hi jamccor,
Can a Christian be Damned ?

Why not read the article and find out. All the major objections are dealt with in this article and is gauranteed to be a blessing to those who are unsure of their security in Christ.

In Christ,
Aeryck
;-)

Christinyou.....

What seperated Adam and Gods relationship?

(Psalm 7:12)
If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

But more so to any one who believes in the "no matter what you do" stuff plz read the following verses.

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So my question to you is can i do those things and inherit the kingdom of God?

Col 3:5
. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

And also i ask what does the following verses mean?

Jn 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jn 15:5
I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jn 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

God bless u all! and i leave in peace. ciao

WOW! I never thought I would get this many responses. I appreciate each and every one of you who have given your input. I am beginning to think that maybe salvation can indeed be lost. Why would Jesus say Many shall come in my name and heal the sick, raise the dead and I will say..depart from me I never knew you.I know that is not verbatim but actually soething Keith Green said.I encourage more input.It can only point me to the bible to learn even more!
GOD Bless
John

Dear John,

'Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?'
Matthew 7:22

Interesting that these people 'were doing stuff' but not what he required, and John what is the work of God and how does one come to do the work of God ? Have you ever read anything in the Scriptures about predestination and election, foreordination, called, chosen etc ?

In Christ,
Aeryck
Ephesians 1:4-6

Hi John,

I don't know if you are familiar with the Westminster Confession, but it explains this rather complicated idea very well. It is from Chapter 5: Of Providence, and as you can see section 5. (I have put the scripture after as well)

SECTION 5: THE most wise, righteous, and gracious God, oftentimes leaves for a season his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to make known them the hidden strength of corruption, and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;(19) and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for various other just and holy ends. (20)

Scripture:

[19] 2CH 32:25 But Hezekiah rendered not again according to the benefit done unto him; for his heart was lifted up: therefore there was wrath upon him, and upon Judah and Jerusalem. 26 Notwithstanding Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, both he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the Lord came not upon them in the days of Hezekiah. 31 Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to inquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart. 2SA 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

[20] 2CO 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. PSA 77:1 I cried unto God with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me. 10 And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High. 12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings. (cf. MAR 14:66-72 with JOH 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Should you wish to read the full confession, I suggest this link: here

Did you enjoy reading the other article, "Can a Christian be Damned ?" I know it is quite long but it deals with most of the main objections that people use who believe that a child of God, can become a non-child of God.

lol aeryk.......

is that a pic of spurgeon?

u better check what he preached man.....that confession makes him a heretic does it not????

ciao

Yeah, you right I have been away far too long. I need to get myself a picture of a bible, I just haven't found one with a beard yet.

There is another section from the Westminster Confession that addresses this topic far more directly.

There is such wonderful security with Christ in God.

In Christ,
Aeryck
:-P

Here it is John,

Chapter 5 section is helpful to some degree, but is more specifically about how God disciplines us, but this below is what I wanted to actually share with you, and others reading here.

Chapter XVII
Of the Perseverance of the Saints
I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

Scripture quotes:

[1] PHI 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1PE 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[2] 2TI 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. JER 31:3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

[3] HEB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. HEB 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. ROM 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. JOH 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. LUK 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. HEB 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[4] JOH 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 1JO 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[5] JER 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

[6] JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 2TH 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 1JO 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[7] MAT 26:70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

[8] PSA 51 (the title) To the chief muscian, A psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

[9] ISA 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. 9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people. 2SA 11:27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord.

[10] EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[11] PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. REV 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. SON 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. 3 I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? 4 My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. 6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer.

[12] ISA 63:17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. MAR 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened. 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

[13] PSA 32:3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. 4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

[14] 2SA 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

[15] PSA 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 1CO 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

In Christ,
Aeryck

ps. I found a bible for my avatar...but not beard...

If salvation were of myself, then I could and most assuredly would loose it. When God gives birth to a new believer, He is not an abortionist. Once saved by God, always saved by God. Once saved by man, salvation lost by man.

How can The Salvation of God be Lost? If it can be lost then the Cross was just a work of futility on the Part of God and His Christ.

Matt 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Luke 14:25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26 If anyone comes to Me, and does not £hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’

31 Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.

33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Salvation is the free gift that will cost you everything. If you decide that after a while, being a disciple is just not worth it, then you have forfeited your salvation and will be shown as a fool.

Matt 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he said* to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 20 The young man said* to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Interesting when approached and asked about what one must do to be saved, Jesus didn't give this rich young man some sort of "sola fide" formulated response. Though no doubt, Jesus like the apostles taught justification by faith alone. This may mess with your doctrine pretty good, but here Jesus is preaching justification by faith alone, and this justifying faith demanded a complete surrendor to God.

I think the only way we can loose our salvation is to denounce Jesus.Once we accept Jesus as our lord and personal saviour, we are santified by his blood. It is therefore not dependent on what we do, only by grace.
But the presence of grace does not mean the absence of the Law. God still expects us to live ourlives to please him, he want us to work towards our salvation with fear and trembling obeying everyone of his laws. He makes up for what we cannot do because of our frailties.

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This two headed monster, 'He loves me, he loves me not ' which was I believe was started by a fella named Arminius centuries ago, has never really been stamped out; for it's fires are allowed to burn based on erroneous interpretation of Scripture. (Heresy)

As long as believers continue to argue for the T.U.L.I.P or the D.A.I.S.Y., this ancient argument is destined to be with us for many more centuries.

So unless we agree to disagree, the argument will remain and just keep burning and burning and ultimately achieve absolutely nothing in the end, but that it went on and on and on and on ... burning and burning and burning with no conclusion...other than it went on burning and burning and burning...

I call it, The Eternal Debate sort of like the Creation vs Evolution debate....

Perhaps it would be better to decide on ways to end the debate. Perhaps the Administration, could lock it and explain why.

Amen ?
:-P

"My Sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give to them eternal Life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My Hand. My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are One. (John 10:27-30)

Romans 8:31-34: What then shall we say to these things. If God is for us, who can be against us? Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies, Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and rather who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also interceeds for us. Who shall separate us from the Love of Christ...?

Graftedbranch

This two headed monster, 'He loves me, he loves me not ' which was I believe was started by a fella named Arminius centuries ago, has never really been stamped out; for it's fires are allowed to burn based on erroneous interpretation of Scripture. (Heresy)

Jacob Arminius was not nearly as "Arminian" as many who followed after him.

Arminius did not believe one could lose ones salvation. His statements argued that the verses which teach ones eternal security were very clear. However He argued that the Calvinist's treatment of those scriptures which seemed to teach one could lose one's salvation were unsatisfactory.

In other words He believed that salvation was secured to the beleiver, but did not find satisfactory explination of the passages which seem to teach otherwise to be sufficent.

This was his position and others took it and ran with it to great extreams.

I believe Arminius was closer to the truth than both his followers and the Calvinist. Both views are deficient not recognizing in scripture the distinctions between Eternal Life, the eternal age and the age of the Kingdom which is a reward to faithful, perservering, and overcomming Christians.

D. M. Panton used the illustration from astronomy saying that for years astronomers believed Uranus to be the last planet in the Solar system. However it did not behave properly according to the laws of physics. Then finally when Neptune was discovered, the behaviour of Uranus was explained.

When the distinctions of the Kingdom and the Eternal Life and Eternal Age were brought to light in the scripture in subsequent generations, then all the related scriptures behave properly.

When it is seen that the Apostles (and the Lord Jesus) made this distinction, then it is clear in such passages as "They who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God" and can be reconciled with such things as Pauls assertion in the same epistle conserning the Adultrous brother, "That his spirit might be saved in that day".. etc.

Eternal Life which is the free gift of God in Christ Jesus is seen in distinction from the reward of the Kingdom which only those who "suffer with Him that they might rein with Him", Those who treat their brothers fairly, those who are mature having sufficient oil in their lamps, etc, will enjoy.

When these things are seen clearly, then our fear is abated and we are encouraged to pursue the Lord with all our heart not to avoid eternal judgement and condemnation, but to obtain the prize. Not eternal salvation, but the prize of the Kingdom.

Romans 8:16,17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are childern of God and if Children, then heirs. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ if so be that we suffer with Him in order that we might also reign with Him."

Graftedbranch

Well done grafted_branch, you just added another x quantity to the Eternal Debate. Well, maybe one day we will realize who it is that is in our midst.

In Him,
Aeryck

So unless we agree to disagree, the argument will remain and just keep burning and burning and ultimately achieve absolutely nothing in the end, but that it went on and on and on and on ...

Seems like the assumption is that there is no resolution and that the only way is to agree to disagree.

I propose a third way. That is the way of the Spirit, the way of life and the way of Light.

That is if we are willing to let go of our precious held preconcieved opinions and open to the Lord and seek His Light in the scriptures, the One Spirit of the One Lord in the One Body of Christ will lead us into the one Faith of the One gospel.

Agreeing to disagree is not God's way, but rather forbearing and recieving one another even if all do not see the same light we see or differ. But our goal is not just mutual tolerance, but that we all be brought into the Oneness of the faith and of the Full knowlege of the Son of God unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

This is accomplished primarily by prayer and not by arguments and debates. It is the Spirit who unites, the Spirit who unveils, the Spirit who reveals truth and the Spirit who is our inward teacher.

Our prayer should be, "Lord make us one, bring us into the one accord, enlighten us all and cause us all to drop our concepts. Lord, perfect us into One, open our eyes, manifest from within us the Oneness of the Spirit and the uniting bond of peace and grow us up in all things into Yourself as the Head."

God's goal is not people shaking hands over fences, nor agreeing to disagree, but His goal is the genuine oneness, the one accord, being one mind, with one faith pursuing the One Lord out of a pure heart.

I suggest that the one hinderence to the One accord and the One mind and one soul is our Self. Our failure to take the cross, in denying ourselves, in denying our soulish opinions and pride. If we would take the cross to our soul life, we would find the resurrection Life of Christ within us enlightening us, and brining us into the One Accord. Not by agreeing to disagree, but by genuinly brining us to one mind to see the one truth by the One Spirit.

Graftedbranch

Don't you think that every great argument started out with such noble aspirations.

Jesus is the truth, the life and the way.

Don't you think that every great argument started out with such noble aspirations

Maybe in the natural world among men. But if we are Christ's we are not of this world, nor are we natural men, but we are born of God, having His Life and baptised into one body by One Spirit haveing the One Life. And this Life is not divided. It is not disagreeable.

Paul told the Philipeans to strive together for the Unity of the Spirit and the uniting bond of Peace. And he went further. He told them to be "one souled". That is not just of one spirit, but also "one souled" or "like minded". This is possible only by the Spirit's Light and the Spirit's enabeling. But it's issue is One soul striving together for the faith of the gospel.

It this possible? with men it is impossible. But with God all things are possible.

The more we take the cross to our natural life, the more we let go of our right to our opinion, the more we apply to Christ as the indwelling Spirit, the more we shall find ourselves brought into the unity of the faith. The More we shall be brought into the Oneness of the faith and experience the Oneness of the body of Christ by the One Spirit of the One Lord.

Christ did not pray to the Father in John 17 to presever them in their opinions and to keep them amiable in their disagreements. No, He prayed that they be perfected into One that the world might know that "thou has sent Me". And this oneness is based in the Oneness of the Trinity and our union with Him. It is not based in a philosophy of mutual tolorence, but rather on the experience of the reality of the Oneness of the Triune God and our union with Him. This and this alone is the basis for Christian unity. Not agreeing to disagree, but oneness with the Triune God.

A husband and wife can adopt the habit of mutual tolorance and even appear over time to be "one souled" but it is not genuine. We all know couples like this. But let them learn to take the cross to their natural life and over time Christ will be formed in them and they will indeed be "one soul". They will grow up in all things into Christ who is the head and there will be the reality of Christ in them and in their relationship. Others will see it. They will share one life and manifest one Life and be a testimony to Christ. It is the same in the church life. When believers learn to take the cross to their natural life, deny their soul life and experience Christ, there is the oneness of the Spirit and the genuine testimony of Christ.

Graftedbranch

YOU IDIOT

I could not read your post after seeing this expression...I think you need to read you Bible some more, especially Matthew 5:22. Then come back here and post.

i will lock this thread, such language is not fit for a christian. When we speak to each other it should be in a christian manner and attitude. A fragrance of Christ, not even Paul spoke like that to brothers in error, Christ himself did only to my understanding speak harshly to hypocrites, it is amazing how one can believe in the doctrines of grace and yet be so ungraceful in their speech?

And i find it hard anyone would ever consider your teaching or compare it with their own with such an answer or attitude in discussion..

thread locked