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Is coming national ID 'mark of the beast'?

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sermonindex

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Is the national ID card the next step toward the imposition of the biblical "mark of the beast" Christians believe will be required to buy and sell during the Last Days?

That's the contention of a growing group of believers who are working to turn back the approval of the Real ID Act by Congress last year. Public Law 109-13 requires the national ID portion of the plan go into effect by May 2008.

"There is a prophecy in the Bible that foretells a time when every person will be required to have a mark or a number, without which he or she will not be able to participate in the economy," states the Christian website NoNationalID.com. "The prophecy is 2,000 years old, but it has been impossible for it to come to pass until now. With the invention of the computer and the Internet, this prophecy of buying and selling, using a number, can now be implemented at any time. Has the time for the fulfillment of this prophecy arrived?"

The site asks visitors to sign an online petition vowing not to vote for any candidate who does not commit to repealing the Real ID Act.

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RobertW

The site asks visitors to sign an online petition vowing not to vote for any candidate who does not commit to repealing the Real ID Act.

I have listened to this ministry off and on for a while now and they hope to gain enough petitions to get this issue in front of Christians. They hope that this issue will trump even abortion as the primary factor in casting ballots.

Personally, I think a lot of factors are coming to play also that are leading us to something of the sort. I refuse to spiritualize this text as it seems to me to be meant literally. Excesses in prophecy circles have not changed my view. I think we need to keep an eye on this.

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Scroggins

My only hope is that HIS return be soon. I dont know about anyone else here, but my bones burn to be home. I really can not wait until I see HIS face.

These things leave me so excited. I want to get up and scream that the end is coming, and our Lord will be here! :-P

Lord, come to us now, I do not want to wait any longer!

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ginnyrose

In the current issue of "Consumer Reports" - June 2006 issue that came today, there is an article titled "The End of Privacy?" with a subtitle "Tiny devices attached to everything you buy could put you under extensive surveillance". This title says it all. Now is this prophetic? Is this the fulfillment of this prophecy? I am certain there will be challenges ahead of us if you do not participate and then survival will be more serious then what we have ever known before.

My opinion but I believe the scriptures means what it says and we do well to believe it and act accordingly.

ginnyrose

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dohzman

When I see things like this, I rember the prophesies in Daniel where the term the whole world is used, however that didn't mean the entire world. The mark of the beast I don't believe will encompass the entire earth. Russia and China for example will not come under this control, neither will America (Thats my personal opinion), knowing that America isn't specifically named in the prophetic scripture, unless you use texts like the Isles that lived carelessly, etc... I personally believe that America's government has its agenda and where they would like to go in the "Big Brother" scheme of things, however the events in the near future will keep government reacting rather than acting and actually very little actual change , I believe, will come to pass, outside of the judgements (chastisements??) on this country which will stack one upon another. I see our country becoming a poor nation and one where fear and hopelessness abounds. But that means the true bride of Christ will have the only answer has actually has tangible results in a persons life---the gospel of Jesus Christ.


It has been my observation that christian groups---ministries??----use these topics to stir up people to react a certain way which usually fits into thier hidden agenda. And in the process they always seem to gather people to thier side. That gives them a larger more powerful Lobby.
I still like what the late Keith Green said,"whether pre, mid, or post trib, I'm preparing to go post and will be to ready to go pre". ;-)

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sermonindex

The Mark of the Beast

It seems very clear to me that those that take the "Mark of the Beast", either on their foreheads or hands, take it knowingly, with the understanding that they are worshiping antichrist. The taking of this mark will be for all of those that are lost sinners and deceived by Satan during the Tribulation.

Rev 13:18
13. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17. And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

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It is also clear that many non-believers will come to belief in Jesus Christ as Lord during the Tribulation. These people will not be deceived, and will not take the mark. They will most undoubtedly be killed, but will immediately be in heaven, in the presence of the Lord:

Rev 6:9-11
9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,

How are Christians killed during the Great Tribulation? By beheading!

Revelation 20:4 reveals to us that these believers were beheaded during the Great Tribulation because of their belief in Jesus Christ, and in their refusal to take the mark of the beast:
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

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In conclusion, I think that the time of the end is close. All of the signs are in place. All of the Nations surround Jerusalem, and Jerusalem is indeed a cup of trembling. There is now more anti-semitism than I have ever witnessed in my entire lifetime of 63 years. The World is getting ready to create it's one world government, that Nimrod tried to start in Genesis, before God came down and confused their language. The currencies in Europe are becoming one with the Euro. Our borders in America are disapearing. By 2010 America will be "borderless" --between that of Canada and Mexico.

The Church is becoming Apostate. No one wants to hear sound doctrine. Many today want teachers that give them what they want to hear-prosperity, name it and claim it, and materialism. They would rather listen to their flesh, and Satan (who they think is the Holy Spirit) talking to them, than studying God's Word. If they studied God's Word, they would know how to test the Spirit that talks to them.

God's Word tells us that the end is almost upon us:

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

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Time is close, come Lord Jesus, come.

God bless,

Stever


P.S. Israel was not even a Nation when I was born in 1942. Who would think that such a thing could happen? It has never happened before to a people group anywhere, once they were dispersed to form their own nation again. Dispersed for 1,500 years, and then become a Nation again--impossible! With God, nothing is impossible. God prophesized this event in Isaiah 66:8, that Israel would become a nation again, in one day, in the end times. That day occurred in 1948, 6 years after I was born. Once this event happened, end time events started falling into place, all with the Lord's timing. The Lord is indeed in control of history:

8. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.


Let's read the rest of the prophecy:

9. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11. That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12. For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14. And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, AND HIS INDIGNATION TOWARD HIS ENEMIES.
15. FOR, BEHOLD, THE LORD WILL COME WITH FIRE, AND WITH HIS CHARIOTS LIKE A WHIRLWIND, TO RENDER HIS ANGER WITH FURY, AND HIS REBUKE WITH FLAMES OF FIRE..

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CJaKfOrEsT


dohzman wrote:
It has been my observation that christian groups---ministries??----use these topics to stir up people to react a certain way which usually fits into thier hidden agenda. And in the process they always seem to gather people to thier side. That gives them a larger more powerful Lobby.
I still like what the late Keith Green said,"whether pre, mid, or post trib, I'm preparing to go post and will be to ready to go pre". ;-)

I'd have to agree with you Dohz, and personally I think that if guys like Alex Jones and Mike Moore are warning people about microchips and smartcards, then it is highly likely that they won't be "the mark". I personally believe that it will be much more subtle than that, after all it "requires wisdom" to figure out who "six hundre, threescore and six" refers to. And how silly are all the 'Hagee's, 'LaHaye's, and 'Van Impe's going to feel if they find out that the mark had been and gone before they were even born (check out Edgar Parkyn's 'Church History' series for this 'Historicist' viewpoint).

Yep, that Kieth Green was a wise man, that's all I can say. ;-)

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rookie

Listen to the Scripture which marks a saint...

Deut. 11:18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 19 You shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 20 And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, 21 that your days and the days of your children may be multiplied in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, like the days of the heavens above the earth.

It is the word of God that marks a saints hand and his forehead. How might we see this in application? The mark on the hand may mean that everything we do with our hands is influenced by the word of God. What of the sign of the word of God between our eyes? Might it mean that our minds are renewed daily by the word of God?


In terms of the mark of the beast, what then might this mark mean in terms of the spiritual world? Do we go along side, do we yoke ourselves to the same thing the world hopes for? Do we with our hands work for the things the world strives for?

Do we yoke ourselves to the worlds thoughts and philosophies? Is this the mark of the beast?

The mark of the beast is not physical but spiritual...

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie

Brother Robert wrote:

I refuse to spiritualize this text as it seems to me to be meant literally.

We have another example given to us in Scripture concerning a mark that is placed on the forehead of the saints...

Ezek. 9:4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”

Ezek. 9:6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.

In Christ
Jeff

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CJaKfOrEsT


rookie wrote:
In terms of the mark of the beast, what then might this mark mean in terms of the spiritual world? Do we go along side, do we yoke ourselves to the same thing the world hopes for? Do we with our hands work for the things the world strives for?

Do we yoke ourselves to the worlds thoughts and philosophies? Is this the mark of the beast?

The mark of the beast is not physical but spiritual...

To be honest, this is the direction that I lean. I believe that Art Katz mentions a similar theory in his book, "Apostolic Foundations".

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CJaKfOrEsT


Stever wrote:
It seems very clear to me that those that take the "Mark of the Beast", either on their foreheads or hands, take it knowingly, with the understanding that they are worshiping antichrist. The taking of this mark will be for all of those that are lost sinners and deceived by Satan during the Tribulation.

I think that there is room for ignorance, on the part of the receiver of the mark, as to it's ultimate consequence. Note that the text say "he causeth all", not "they will choose". Also note that the beast "deceiveth them all", which means that there is the possibility that he has "tricked them" regarding the implication of the reception of the mark.

Note that Israel had deceived themselves into believing that worshipping the Golden Calf was a valid expression of worshipping Jehovah (they actually named it Jehovah), suggesting that they were unaware that they were worshipping Satan. Also, consider Samson, who "knew not" that the Lord had left him, until it was too late.

Perhaps it is a matter of being careful not to embrace the world, as you may not get another chance to repent of it, and we won't know when God says, "Enough is enough."

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sermonindex

Stever responds to CJaKfOrEsT:

Revelation 20:4-5 tells us that the believers did not accept the mark of the beast. I have to believe that the Holy Spirit, that resides within the believer, provides the spiritual discernment and knowledge on what to do (i.e. not take the mark, and suffer death by beheading):

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which [b]HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS[/b]; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

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I personally don't think we have to fear the mark. It has to be voluntary. We have to want to worship the beast (and accept him as Lord), and want to accept his mark.

The same goes for accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. It has to be voluntary, no one can force us or deceive us to become a Christian, no one can force us to worship Him. He knows our hearts, and judges us as saved or lost by our hearts.

At the the Great Tribulation--many will choose the beast, and worship him and live. Also, many will choose Jesus Christ, and worship Him, and be killed. If the Christian is truly saved, he/she will not be deceived by the Antichrist or his minions, in my opinion.

God bless,

Stever :-)

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CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

Stever wrote:
It seems very clear to me that those that take the "Mark of the Beast", either on their foreheads or hands, take it knowingly, with the understanding that they are worshiping antichrist. The taking of this mark will be for all of those that are lost sinners and deceived by Satan during the Tribulation.

I think that there is room for ignorance, on the part of the receiver of the mark, as to it's ultimate consequence. Note that the text say "he causeth all", not "they will choose". Also note that the beast "deceiveth them all", which means that there is the possibility that he has "tricked them" regarding the implication of the reception of the mark.

Note that Israel had deceived themselves into believing that worshipping the Golden Calf was a valid expression of worshipping Jehovah (they actually named it Jehovah), suggesting that they were unaware that they were worshipping Satan. Also, consider Samson, who "knew not" that the Lord had left him, until it was too late.

Perhaps it is a matter of being careful not to embrace the world, as you may not get another chance to repent of it, and we won't know when God says, "Enough is enough."

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CJaKfOrEsT


Stever wrote:
I personally don't think we have to fear the mark.

I agree.

It has to be voluntary.

i don't agree that this is clear. Although I see where you're coming from, I believe that 'worshipping the beast' and 'receiving the mark' are two separate things, but those who worship the beast will be "compelled" to receive the mark (whatever it is).

The same goes for accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. It has to be voluntary, no one can force us or deceive us to become a Christian, no one can force us to worship Him. He knows our hearts, and judges us as saved or lost by our hearts.
....
If the Christian is truly saved, he/she will not be deceived by the Antichrist or his minions, in my opinion.

I only agree in part here. While it is true that one cannot "accidently accept Christ as Lord" one doesn't need to worry about accepting Antichrist as lord because we are all born under his lordship. Considering Christ statement about being wary of the "many Christs" that will and have already appeared, I believe that there will be many if not all who will bow down to Antichrist, believing him to be Christ. After all, consider those who already bow down to the Anti... I mean ... Viccar of Christ today. They think that their bowing down to Christ, or at least his perfect representative.

As I said earlier, what if the mark has already been and gone? Or, what if it came and stayed? Perhaps we are being protected from it in ignorance, as a child is protected from "ritual satanic abuse" or "pedophilea"? You do realise that God doesn't have to let us know what He is protecting us from, even if He has spelled it out to us in criptic terms, just in case it become so close to us, that it's dangerous?

Food for thought, from one "fallen head" to another. :-)

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sermonindex

Stever posted:
The same goes for accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. It has to be voluntary, no one can force us or deceive us to become a Christian, no one can force us to worship Him. He knows our hearts, and judges us as saved or lost by our hearts.
....
If the Christian is truly saved, he/she will not be deceived by the Antichrist or his minions, in my opinion.


CJaKfOrEsT responded
I only agree in part here. While it is true that one cannot "accidently accept Christ as Lord" one doesn't need to worry about accepting Antichrist as lord because we are all born under his lordship. Considering Christ statement about being wary of the "many Christs" that will and have already appeared, I believe that there will be many if not all who will bow down to Antichrist, believing him to be Christ. After all, consider those who already bow down to the Anti... I mean ... Viccar of Christ today. They think that their bowing down to Christ, or at least his perfect representative.


Stever responds to CJaKfOrEsT:

Have you ever considered that Christ was addressing Jewish believers when he made the remarks we have been discussing?

If you believe in the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation takes place, then the Church is not on the scene during the Tribulation. Who is on the scene? Jews who are not believers, and are still looking for their Messiah, as well as Non Jews who hate God and have rejected Christ. With this as a given (for me anyway) it is easy for me to see that Christ is talking to Jews that come to belief in Him during the Tribulation, as well as non-believing Gentiles who have also come to belief in him during this time.

Luke 21:7-38 becomes clear to me, with the above understanding. This is a description of Jews, as well as Gentiles that believe in Him during the Tribulation:

7. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8. And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11. And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13. And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19. In your patience possess ye your souls.
20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30. When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
37. And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

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Since I do believe in the pre-Tribulation of the Church I see the above as having no reference to me or other believers that will not have to go through God’s poured out wrath on an unbelieving world.

God bless,

Stever :-)

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RobertW

I think that there is room for ignorance, on the part of the receiver of the mark, as to it's ultimate consequence. Note that the text say "he causeth all", not "they will choose".

It seems that the consequence will be death for those who 'refuse' this mark. I am not aware of any exceptions in the Revelation for those who receive it, so it would appear to me that anyone taking it would 'know' what they were doing. I am open for input though.

God Bless,

Robert

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MrBillPro

I like seeing this kind of information just strengthens my faith knowing that what the Word says is coming to pass, we all should be rejoicing when we read anything that the word says will come to pass, and not be afraid at all.

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rookie

In terms of accepting the mark of the beast, there will come a time where coersion wiil play a part in promoting this acceptance.

I think about the debates in our nation, that currently speak to defining what constitutes torture. There are those who are against torture for any purpose. Then there are those who believe that torture can be used or justified.

I believe one day, those who are given the choice to take or not the mark of the beast will also be exposed to torture in one form or another.

Do you see how the philosophies of men who rely on pragmatism today will one day impact those who will have to make a choice between satan and Christ.

There is no turning back, there is no turning back...

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie

Another thought along this line, I heard today that the nation of China requires that children in 6th grade begin to learn English. Soon this requirement will be changed to 3rd grade age students.

English is the language of the world on the internet. With this development what examples in Scriptures come to mind?

There is nothing new under the sun...

In Christ
Jeff

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RobertW

Do you see how the philosophies of men who rely on pragmatism today will one day impact those who will have to make a choice between satan and Christ.

Especially as christianity is pigeonholed in the same category with other 'fundamentalist' religions. Maybe it would be better to distinguish between true and false converts. A believer in 'name only' will be little trouble to the plans of the enemy.

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RobertW

English is the language of the world on the internet. With this development what examples in Scriptures come to mind?

God confounded the languages at Babel as a preventive measure against the spread and severity of wickedness. Scriptures? "As it was in the days of Noe..."

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sermonindex

There is a prophecy in the Bible that foretells a time when every person will be required to have a mark or a number, without which he or she will not be able to participate in the economy

We already have that... it's called a "Social Security Number".

Krispy

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CJaKfOrEsT


RobertW wrote:
It seems that the consequence will be death for those who 'refuse' this mark. I am not aware of any exceptions in the Revelation for those who receive it, so it would appear to me that anyone taking it would 'know' what they were doing. I am open for input though.

Isn't it funny how no matter how hard we try, there always seems to be a liitle bit of the "doctrine of the masses" that creeps in and hides amongst the truth of Christ? :oops:

Consider this hypothesis though, someone receives the mark, and then later repents and trusts in Christ savingly. WOuld that meant that he would be excluded from participation in the "Millenial Reign of Christ" (Rev 20:4)

Perhaps this is the consequence that I was refering to (although it wasn't what I had in mind at the time ;-))

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sermonindex

CJaKfOrEsT posted:

Consider this hypothesis though, someone receives the mark, and then later repents and trusts in Christ savingly. WOuld that meant that he would be excluded from participation in the "Millenial Reign of Christ" (Rev 20:4)

Stever's response:

I can't find any scripture to support your hypothesis, as much as I would like to find some. It seems to me that this is an end time choice- choose this day who you will serve- Antichrist or Jesus Christ. If you choose Antichrist, and you receive his reward while you are still alive on this earth. Your reward? To Worship him as your Lord, and you will not be killed. The end result of your decision? You get to spend eternity in eternal torment in Hell (that was origianally prepared for Satan and his fallen anges) with Satan and his demons.

Your reward if you choose Jesus Christ as Lord? Immediate death by beheading, and immediate presence with Him in Heaven. Your reward? Is Jesus Christ, a person, who you will spend eternity with in your glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone.

Luke 24 tells us:
38. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE.
40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42. And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43. And he took it, and did eat before them.
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God bless,

Stever :-)

C
CJaKfOrEsT


Stever wrote:
CJaKfOrEsT posted:

Consider this hypothesis though, someone receives the mark, and then later repents and trusts in Christ savingly. WOuld that meant that he would be excluded from participation in the "Millenial Reign of Christ" (Rev 20:4)

Stever's response:

I can't find any scripture to support your hypothesis, as much as I would like to find some. It seems to me that this is an end time choice- choose this day who you will serve- Antichrist or Jesus Christ. If you choose Antichrist, and you receive his reward while you are still alive on this earth. Your reward? To Worship him as your Lord, and you will not be killed. The end result of your decision? You get to spend eternity in eternal torment in Hell (that was origianally prepared for Satan and his fallen anges) with Satan and his demons.

Stever,

It would seem that we have been going head to head on a few issues lately. It would appear that you are happy to seperate our disagreements from our personalities, as things have remained light (at least I hope that the feeling is mutual in this regard ;-)).

My hypothesis was slightly loaded. Obviously those who have received the mark will not participate in the Millenial Reign, at least in an "administrative" role anyway, however as Robert correctly pointed out, there is no direct statement to say that those who receive the mark will be excluded from heaven, leaving room for the possibility of a later repentance. (Mind you personally I wouldn't want to bet on it though, because the Word gives us no assurances either way).

If we were to consider the historicist stance (which I tend to lean toward) there is an excellent historical illustration.

Historicist's believe that the "mark" is a "spiritual mark" as is the mark that the man with the inkhorn put on the foreheads of the Israelites that "sight and cry for the abominations" that were done in the temple, as discribed by by Ezekial. Parkyns, for one believed that this alluded to the "sign of the cross" the the Roman Catholic's baptised their converts with, because in the dark ages one could not trade, or even own possessions if the were even suspected of heresy against the Papal Church and the Holy See.

I think it was Bishop Riddley who recanted his testimony against the Roman Church, and later repented of his recantation and was burned to the stake. When he was burned, he asked that the hand that signed his recantation could be burned first, and this was the hand that betrayed him.

If Parkyns was right, then Riddley perhaps could be an example of my earlier hypothesis of exclusion from "reigning with Christ" in the Millenium, but entering into heaven as on "snatched from the fire" (mind the pun).

Note that Revelation is the only book of the Bible that has a curse attached to anyone that either adds or subtracts from its contents. A wise man would admit that their speculations are just that (hence my use of the words "hypothesis" and "perhaps"), except where there is a clear statement to be read.

Blessings.

S
sermonindex

Hi Adam: I have given this a tremendous amount of thought over the years. In regards to the Mark of the Beast, we are warned in Revelation that ANYONE who takes this Mark will receive God's wrath. That to me eliminates any "wiggle" room.

REV.14:9: AND THE THIRD ANGEL FOLLOWED THEM, SAYING WITH A LOUD VOICE, IF ANY MAN WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND RECEIVE HIS MARK IN HIS FOREHEAD, OR IN HIS HAND,
10: THE SAME SHALL DRINK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF GOD, WHICH IS POURED OUT WITHOUT MIXTURE INTO THE CUP OF HIS INDIGNATION; AND HE SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB:
11: AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND WHOSOEVER RECEIVETH THE MARK OF HIS NAME.
REV.16:2: AND THE FIRST WENT, AND POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE EARTH; AND THERE FELL A NOISOME AND GRIEVOUS SORE UPON THE MEN WHICH HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST, AND UPON THEM WHICH WORSHIPPED HIS IMAGE.


No one who holds the Bible to be the inspired Word of God will doubt, but that here before us is portrayed the MOST TERRIFYING THREAT IN ALL SCRIPTURE; A PROPHECY OF UNPARALLELED IMPORTANCE TO EVERY SOUL ON EARTH. [Also, this Prophesy is specific to anyone who takes the Mark of the beast].

Today, thanks to the "Left Behind" series, we have experienced a Paradigm shift, that clouds our understanding of this specific end time prophesy. You might want to go to the websites at the bottom of the page.

I really have to disagree with you on this one. I see no wiggle room, and no hope for anyone that takes the Mark of the beast, based upon Scripture, and the specific prophecy that relates to it (the Mark).

"The Mark of the Beast Paradigm shift"
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/mark_of_beast_paradigm_shift.html


"Can a Christian willfully reject God and take the Mark of the Beast?
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/christian_reject_god_and_take_mark.html


"If I was Satan, what would I do?
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/what_would_satan_do.html


God bless,

Stever :-)
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CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

Stever wrote:
CJaKfOrEsT posted:

Consider this hypothesis though, someone receives the mark, and then later repents and trusts in Christ savingly. WOuld that meant that he would be excluded from participation in the "Millenial Reign of Christ" (Rev 20:4)

[Long post snipped- read entire post below]

C
crsschk

Recalling past conversations on this and am of the same notions of Robert as he also has expressed elsewhere, well expressed here;

Personally, I think a lot of factors are coming to play also that are leading us to something of the sort. I refuse to spiritualize this text as it seems to me to be meant literally. Excesses in prophecy circles have not changed my view. I think we need to keep an eye on this.

Especially that last line. It is more than slightly interesting that the technology is available and already in effect though only limited at the present moment. The ideals of technology has always been towards smaller, more powerful and cheaper, one only has to look at the brains behind what we are typing on here and marvel at the differences just in the last ten years alone.

But to throw another thought into the mix for consideration it dawned on me yesterday listening to a message, this passage and how it may or may not apply;

Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

For a sense of letting the air out a bit here, some might enjoy the following commentary;

[b]Gen 4:15 -
The Lord set a mark upon Cain[/b]
- What this mark was, has given rise to a number of frivolously curious conjectures. Dr. Shuckford collects the most remarkable. Some say he was paralytic; this seems to have arisen from the version of the Septuagint, Στενων και τρεμων εση, Groaning and trembling shalt thou be. The Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel says the sign was from the great and precious name, probably one of the letters of the word Yehovah. The author of an Arabic Catena in the Bodleian Library says, “A sword could not pierce him; fire could not burn him; water could not drown him; the air could not blast him; nor could thunder or lightning strike him.” The author of Bereshith Rabba, a comment on Genesis, says the mark was a circle of the sun rising upon him. Abravanel says the sign was Abel’s dog, which constantly accompanied him. Some of the doctors in the Talmud say that it was the letter ת tau marked on his forehead, which signified his contrition, as it is the first letter in the word תשובה teshubah, repentance. Rabbi Joseph, wiser than all the rest, says it was a long horn growing out of his forehead!

Dr. Shuckford farther observes that the Hebrew word אית oth, which we translate a mark, signifies a sign or token. Thus, Gen_9:13, the bow was to be לאית leoth, for a sign or token that the world should not be destroyed; therefore the words, And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, should be translated, And the Lord appointed to Cain a token or sign, to convince him that no person should be permitted to slay him. To have marked him would have been the most likely way to have brought all the evils he dreaded upon him; therefore the Lord gave him some miraculous sign or token that he should not be slain, to the end that he should not despair, but, having time to repent, might return to a gracious God and find mercy. Notwithstanding the allusion which I suppose St. Paul to have made to the punishment of Cain, some think that he did repent and find mercy. I can only say this was possible. Most people who read this account wonder why Cain should dread being killed, when it does not appear to them that there were any inhabitants on the earth at that time besides himself and his parents. To correct this mistake, let it be observed that the death of Abel took place in the one hundred and twenty-eighth or one hundred and twenty-ninth year of the world. Now, “supposing Adam and Eve to have had no other sons than Cain and Abel in the year of the world one hundred and twenty-eight, yet as they had daughters married to these sons, their descendants would make a considerable figure on the earth. Supposing them to have been married in the nineteenth year of the world, they might easily have had each eight children, some males and some females, in the twenty-fifth year. In the fiftieth year there might proceed from them in a direct line sixty-four persons; in the seventy-fourth year there would be five hundred and twelve; in the ninety-eighth year, four thousand and ninety-six; in the one hundred and twenty-second they would amount to thirty-two thousand seven hundred and sixty-eight: if to these we add the other children descended from Cain and Abel, their children, and their children’s children, we shall have, in the aforesaid one hundred and twenty-eight years four hundred and twenty-one thousand one hundred and sixty-four men capable of generation, without reckoning the women either old or young, or such as are under the age of seventeen.” See Dodd.

But this calculation may be disputed, because there is no evidence that the antediluvian patriarchs began to have children before they were sixty-five years of age. Now, supposing that Adam at one hundred and thirty years of age had one hundred and thirty children, which is quite possible, and each of these a child at sixty-five years of age, and one in each successive year, the whole, in the one hundred and thirtieth year of the world, would amount to one thousand two hundred and nineteen persons; a number sufficient to found several villages, and to excite the apprehensions under which Cain appeared at this time to labor.

~ Adam Clarke

Something else that came to mind was the star of David given to the Jew's during the Holocoust, though that is the inverse of the matter at hand...

S
sermonindex

Stever posts, to add to what Mike had to say:

The Mark of the Beast is not defined in the Bible. In other words, we are not told in plain language what the Mark is. At this point one may be tempted to ask: 1) Why didn't God tell us what the Mark of Beast is? 2) How can He expect His followers to resist receiving the deadly Mark of the Beast if most of them don't even know what it is?

These are fair questions; but you will soon realise that God has not left us (His people) in hopeless ignorance in regards to this matter. In the Bible He has given us several meaningful clues, which if followed through will guide the interested believer to the correct understanding of this puzzling prophecy.

The Most High has set before mankind a spiritual riddle, the answer to which is so amazing that once you see it, you will never again wonder what the Mark of Beast is.

Let's examine just two scriptural clues and follow their lead.

Two Clues

1.To begin with the Mark is described in Revelation 14:11 as The Mark of his name.What the Beast's name is we are not told; but it would appear from this clue that the Beast's mark is in some way related to his name.

2.Secondly we are told in Revelation 13:16 that the mark is to be placed in the foreheads or right hands of those who accept it.

Let's consider these two clues.

There exists in Scripture a fundamental principle regarding the origin and understanding of Bible prophecy. The principle is mentioned in this passage:

2 Peter 1:20: \tKnowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Bible prophecy is not the product of human intellect or will power. It is a gift from God. Holy men of old were inspired by the Holy Spirit: or, as the text says, "they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

In exactly the same way, the understanding of Bible prophecy is also not a matter of human intellect or will power. One must be given the understanding just as the prophets of old were given the prophecy. In other words, spiritual eyesight is also a gift from God. This means that without the Holy Spirit it is virtually impossible to correctly understand, appreciate or even believe a Bible prophecy. Understanding must come from above either through:

1) Direct revelation, which few of us are privileged to receive, or

2) From the Bible itself, and then only if the Holy Spirit opens our minds to understand.

As far as this generation is concerned, we must look to the Bible to interpret itself: for none of us can compare with the prophets of old who had direct revelation.

Bearing these basic facts in mind, we will now seek to solve the mystery of the Mark of the Beast by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

When we do this we see that God also places His Name (His seal) in the foreheads of those who follow Him.

Rev. 7:2: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev.14:1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

After examining these verses about God's name, one cannot fail to see a similarity with those verses containing those two clues about the Beast's Mark or name. For here in this prophecy we are given a preview of two groups of people.

1.Those who accept the Father's Name or Seal in their foreheads. (Rev.7:2-4, Rev.14:1)

2.And those who accept the Beast's Name or Mark in their foreheads. (Rev.13:16)

In other words, the Mark of the Beast and the Seal of God are both names and are both placed in the foreheads of the people who receive them.

Here we can clearly see that the Beast is attempting to duplicate or counterfeit the Almighty God's program by similarly inscribing his mark, his name in people's foreheads. This passion to counterfeit the Almighty is a typical Satanic trait: for he never tires of counterfeiting the handiwork of God: not just to be like Him - which would be admirable - but to replace God.


These facts leads us to the conclusion that the Beast's Mark is simply a counterfeit or substitute of God's signature and seal. It follows that any information which we obtain concerning the Seal and Signature of God will obviously help us decipher the mystery of the Mark of the Beast.

xxxxxxxx


God bless,

Stever

S
sermonindex

Stever posts:

I once heard an excellent Bible Study about the "Mark of Cain".

What was the Mark of Cain? GIANTISM


The study was quite intense, going all of the way back to Cain and forward to the time of the world wide flood. The study indicates that Ham, the son of Noah, was married to one of the daughters of Cain, therefore she was a giantess.

When we read in Genesis about Noah cursing Ham's son Canaan, and we study it closely, we realize that it is not a curse, but a Prophecy of Canaan and his seed (children) and their future:

Genesis 9:25-27
"25. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."

The Bible study then went into detail about where each of the sons traveled to and settled as a Nation. Ham, his wife and Canaan ended up in the promise land, and it was called the land of the Canaanites, the land of the Giants. All of the various tribes in this land descended from Canaan, Ham's son.

It is a detailed Bible study that I will have to listen to again, and follow up with more Scriptural detail.

For generations we have all wondered what the "Mark of Cain" really is. Some have thought that the Mark was making Cain's skin black. Ask any black man or woman that you know if the color of their skin ever saved them from harm. The answer has to be no. But Giantism would provide an advantage. The Jews were afraid to enter into the promised land, into the land of the Canaanites because of the "Giants in the Land".

Numbers 13
30. And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
31. But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
32. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
33. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Joshua 12:8 tells us who occupied the Promise land before their arrival:

8.\tIn the mountains, and in the valleys, and in the plains, and in the springs, and in the wilderness, and in the south country; the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites:

God bless,

Stever :-)

C
crsschk

Thanks Stever,

This has given pasue to go back and re-read and reflect on just what exactely the scripture states. Somehow it is easy to overlook the fact that there are two marks and more interesting that the mark of the beast is more descriptive, at least in name, number, placement.

Some brief observations;

[i]... [b]we[/b] have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[/i]

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels,..."

The "we" being the angels of course.
The other interesting note is that this seal is only in the [u]foreheads[/u] of the servants of [i]our God[/i]. Stressed that as another interest, [i]'our'[/i], the things one can miss reading too fast through scripture. It is wonderful to note that not only are these incredibaly powerful beings but they are 'our' emissaries here in this instance to set apart and seal, mark out the Brethren [i]before[/i] leveling their destruction.

Of course this all dependant on how one might look at it, but it is high honor indeed regardless to be marked as servants of God.

S
sermonindex

Stever posts:

What exactly were the sins of the Canaanites?

Leviticus 18 tells us:

Leviticus 18

1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.
3. After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4. Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.
5. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.
6. None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the Lord.
7. The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
8. The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
9. The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
10. The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
11. The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
12. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
13. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
14. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
15. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
16. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
17. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
18. Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
19. Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
20. Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
21. And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.
22. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25. And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27. (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28. That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29. For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.

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God bless,

Stever

S
sermonindex

Stever posts as a follow-up to Mike:

I love the way the Bible reveals things to us. With our western minds we tend to expect God's Word to be presented in the way that we express our own ideas- in chronological order, with an Introduction, followed by the body of what we are discussing, and then the conclusion. In the Bible, God starts off with an introduction that is similar to a skeleton. The book that we are reading then follows with filling in the skeleton with the muscles, sinews, organs, and the skin. And, it is not revealed in chronological order, but rateher a bit here, and a bit there, until the entire thing He is discussing is revealed to us. Genesis Chapter one is an example of that. The entire Chapter of Genesis 1 is a description of the creation. Genesis Chapter 2 starts off with "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all the host of them." So, we realize that the description of the creation is finished in the first verse of Chapter 2. The ideal spot for Genesis 2:1 would actually be at the end of Chapter 1.


God's Word tells us in Revelation 20 that the Mark of the Beast that was received by those going to hell was either on their foreheads or on their hands. It also tells us that Jews and Gentiles that became Christian believers that went through the Tribulation, and were beheaded, and were on their way to rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years did not receive this mark, nor worship the beast:

"4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."


In conclusion then, since those believers that went through the Tribulation, and enter the 1,000 year reign with him DID NOT RECEIVE HIS MARK, then anyone receiving it are on their way to hell and will be at the Great White Throne. This also tells me that those that accept the mark of the beast are unable to repent, since there is no description of this anywhere in Revelation, that refers to this specific Prophecy.

God bless,

Stever :-)

G
garoldr

Fear that which is 666. Computer technology is advancing so rapidly that RFID chips will soon take the place of currency. Read the current edition of "Consumer Reports magazine" article on Privacy...RFID chips. Look up verachip or digital angel on the net. One must conclude that we are close to becoming society that will have the RFID chip on or in all merchandise. Digital Angel was touted as an implantable chip with your medical info etc. It would be good to chip ex-cons and prisoner, tracking them by gps. The company has backed off that use because of the negative publicity. It lingers in the shadows though so be ready. You see the handwriting on the wall. Credit cards will all soon have rfid chips you wave near a reader to complete a transaction. Cash will no longer be needed. Oh, and implanting the chip will be necessary for proof it is your chip,...and to track your movements and purchases. There is a likelyhood you will be forced to take the chip (MARK) or you don't buy. Scary? Not if you trust in the Lord. You know it is close when the governments tell their citizens that they need this for their own security from terrorists. You see people are willing to surrender freedoms for security. DO NOT take the sales pitch and condem your soul to hell. There will never be peace until the King of Kings, JESUS CHRIST returns.

Num 6 24-26
Gary

I
IRONMAN

greetings saints
i have been following this discussion with interest and feel led to bring a couple of points up.

[b]5 And he had power to give life F20 unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive F21 a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. [/b]

Now the word says that all will be caused to take this mark irrespective of class, nationality etc. It seems to me that this is both a spiritual [i][b]and[/b][/i] physical mark. Spiritual in that those with it are tied to the beast and worship it, physical in that somehow it is used to buy and sell. could this mean those RFID chips, probably so, but it is clear to me that this mark has a dual purpose. not nation will be exempt from this influence whether named specifically in the word or not. China seems more likely to me to fall into this trap since it is a largely heathen nation (athiests, taoists etc) with a small number of Christians. how on earth an athiest government can tell believers how they are to worship is beyond me save to say the Lord allows it to be so.

bro Dohzman wrote:

The mark of the beast I don't believe will encompass the entire earth. Russia and China for example will not come under this control, neither will America (Thats my personal opinion), knowing that America isn't specifically named in the prophetic scripture, unless you use texts like the Isles that lived carelessly, etc...

The fact that America is not mentioned specifically in scripture says that at the time these things happen America will not be a nation of any consequence or much influence in those days. The Lord has shown some saints of the coming economic collapse. the Lord has shown me (and i'm sure some others too, though i've not come into contact with any as yet) that this will happen some time next year. The situation surrounding this will point to anything but economic collapse. the dow jones will probably be at a record high, the experts won't see it coming as the Lord will have blinded them to this and those who have the task of proclaiming this message will be thought of as lunatics. We know the Lord has appointed the foolish things to confound the wise, the weak to confound the strong and the worthless things to confound those thought to be of importance, this is so that it is plain that His hand is at work and so no man can glory in His presence.

what can come of this? Those who purport to be Christians and are not will surely fall away. those who gave money to prosperity ministries will lose everything and those ministers who preached such filth will be at the mercy of their congregants. This will be a judgement on them. it would not surprise me at all to see such ministers having their homes pillaged by angry congregants and even killed. The military will fall apart because there is no money to support it and the system of government will fail after anarchy ensues. This then is the end of the 3 things we pride ourselves in most, our wealth, military might and system of government at which point there will be only 2 alternatives, get with God or with the enemy. Those who get with God are going to have a hard time for sure but God's grace is sufficient for us to endure and hold onto Him until it is all done.

in short saints, there is nothing to fear for if the Lord be for us, who then can be against us? like paul i am convinced that there is no height, depth, angel, demon, persecution not even life not death itself can separate us from the Lord Jesus Christ and His love for us. AMEN.

i'm a pan tribber, it'll all pan out. whether we leave before it all (which i have my doubts about) in the middle of it or after it (the word says we'll be caught up and meet Him in the clouds: perhaps He's on His way back?) is ultimately of no consequence for whatever situation we find ourselves in (i know for sure i'll be here a while) God's grace is sufficient for us.

all glory and honour be to the most High God, to Christ by whom we are reconciled to Him and His Holy Spirit through whom we can know the will of God and do what He would have us do to His glory. AMEN.

S
sermonindex

The following goes hand and hand with the subject matter. The U.S. is building an embassy in Iraq that consists of 21 buildings on 104 acres of land! It is a veritbale city, totally self contained with its own defense force

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12319798/

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The fortress-like compound rising beside the Tigris River here will be the largest of its kind in the world, the size of VATICAN CITY, with the population of a small town, its own defense force, self-contained power and water, and a precarious perch at the heart of Iraq’s turbulent future.

The new U.S. Embassy also seems as cloaked in secrecy as the ministate in Rome.

“We can’t talk about it. Security reasons,” Roberta Rossi, a spokeswoman at the current embassy, said when asked for information about the project.

A British tabloid even told readers the location was being kept secret — news that would surprise Baghdadis who for months have watched the forest of construction cranes at work across the winding Tigris, at the very center of their city and within easy mortar range of anti-U.S. forces in the capital, though fewer explode there these days.

The embassy complex — 21 buildings on 104 acres, according to a U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee report — is taking shape on riverside parkland in the fortified “Green Zone,” just east of al-Samoud, a former palace of Saddam Hussein’s, and across the road from the building where the ex-dictator is now on trial.

The Republican Palace, where U.S. Embassy functions are temporarily housed in cubicles among the chandelier-hung rooms, is less than a mile away in the 4-square-mile zone, an enclave of American and Iraqi government offices and lodgings ringed by miles of concrete barriers.

5,500 employees at the embassy

The 5,500 Americans and Iraqis working at the embassy, almost half listed as security, are far more numerous than at any other U.S. mission worldwide. They rarely venture out into the “Red Zone,” that is, violence-torn Iraq.

This huge American contingent at the center of power has drawn criticism.

“The presence of a massive U.S. embassy — by far the largest in the world — co-located in the Green Zone with the Iraqi government is seen by Iraqis as an indication of who actually exercises power in their country,” the International Crisis Group, a European-based research group, said in one of its periodic reports on Iraq.

State Department spokesman Justin Higgins defended the size of the embassy, old and new, saying it’s indicative of the work facing the United States here.

“It’s somewhat self-evident that there’s going to be a fairly sizable commitment to Iraq by the U.S. government in all forms for several years,” he said in Washington.

Higgins noted that large numbers of non-diplomats work at the mission — hundreds of military personnel and dozens of FBI agents, for example, along with representatives of the Agriculture, Commerce and other U.S. federal departments.

They sleep in hundreds of trailers or “containerized” quarters scattered around the Green Zone. But next year embassy staff will move into six apartment buildings in the new complex, which has been under construction since mid-2005 with a target completion date of June 2007.

Iraq’s interim government transferred the land to U.S. ownership in October 2004, under an agreement whose terms were not disclosed.
“Embassy Baghdad” will dwarf new U.S. embassies elsewhere, projects that typically cover 10 acres. The embassy’s 104 acres is six times larger than the United Nations compound in New York, and two-thirds the acreage of Washington’s National Mall.

Estimated cost of over $1 billion
Original cost estimates ranged over $1 billion, but Congress appropriated only $592 million in the emergency Iraq budget adopted last year. Most has gone to a Kuwait builder, First Kuwaiti Trading & Contracting, with the rest awarded to six contractors working on the project’s “classified” portion — the actual embassy offices.

Higgins declined to identify those builders, citing security reasons, but said five were American companies.

The designs aren’t publicly available, but the Senate report makes clear it will be a self-sufficient and “hardened” domain, to function in the midst of Baghdad power outages, water shortages and continuing turmoil.

It will have its own water wells, electricity plant and wastewater-treatment facility, “systems to allow 100 percent independence from city utilities,” says the report, the most authoritative open source on the embassy plans.

Besides two major diplomatic office buildings, homes for the ambassador and his deputy, and the apartment buildings for staff, the compound will offer a swimming pool, gym, commissary, food court and American Club, all housed in a recreation building.

Security, overseen by U.S. Marines, will be extraordinary: setbacks and perimeter no-go areas that will be especially deep, structures reinforced to 2.5-times the standard, and five high-security entrances, plus an emergency entrance-exit, the Senate report says.

Higgins said the work, under way on all parts of the project, is more than one-third complete.
© 2006 The Associated Press.
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This sends chills up and down my spine. How about yours? The time of the end is near.


God bless,

Stever :-)

X
Xtian

The original post assumes that there is still a future end times, mark and anti-christ ahead of us.

What if it already happened in the past?

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I say to you, there are [u]some of those who are standing here who will not taste death[/u] until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Granted this is only one verse but its from Jesus Himself. So unless there are some original disciples still hanging around, I have to contend that all this end times stuff was fulfilled in AD 70 when God punished Israel for its sin and rejection of Christ.

TC&GB (take care & God bless),

Xtian

I
IRONMAN

bro Xitan
Christ didn't say anything about the mark of the beast, the 7 trumpets, seals or bowls which were reserved for the end to the disciples. John however received the revelation much later wherein the warnings of the mark of the beast are. if the judgements which are spoken of in the revelation have occurred, then we would be in heaven now coz the 1000 yr reign will have passed. these things have yet to occur. concerning the scripture you quoted, that is indeed something to chew on and seek the Lord's counsel that we may understand the meaning of it.

X
Xtian

Ironman, my comments in bold... :-)

by IRONMAN on 2006/6/5 19:58:51
bro Xitan
Christ didn't say anything about the mark of the beast, the 7 trumpets, seals or bowls which were reserved for the end to the disciples.

[b]So the passages in Matt 23 and 24 (and Luke 21) have nothing to do with the end times depicted in Revelation?[/b]


John however received the revelation much later wherein the warnings of the mark of the beast are. if the judgements which are spoken of in the revelation have occurred, then we would be in heaven now coz the 1000 yr reign will have passed.

[b]Your missing something.

If all the judgements in Revelation already occured in our past (the first century) then only those who were beheaded [i]back then[/i] were to reign with Christ for 1,000 year (IOW not everyone will reign with Christ). Here is the scripture...

Revelation 20:4
... And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Most people are taught to read revelation with the understanding that it has to happen in a time still in our future. That biased outlook requires that the book was addressed to us today, when simply, it does not (it was addressed to seven actual first century churches.

The good thing is that it doesnt matter because when we die, we will still go to heaven :-) [/b]


these things have yet to occur.

[b]"these things"... are you refering to the things that Jesus said were the sign of His coming, and the sign of the end of the age as seen in Matt 24? The false christs, the wars & rumors of wars, famines, fearful events & signs from heaven, earthquakes, etc? If so, there are many scriptures that show a first century fulfillment of these - the problem is that we are looking in the wrong place & time. If your interested, I can share my findings about these things.[/b]


concerning the scripture you quoted, that is indeed something to chew on and seek the Lord's counsel that we may understand the meaning of it.

Yes, it is a huge undertaking which rocked my belief about end times, but if you use the whole of scripture, in context, it reveals itself quite clearly. Like I said, a future rapture, end times, and this "left behind" theology has only be in the states since around the 1830s.

I
IRONMAN

bro Xtian
the passages you brought up indeed speak of the end times, however Christ speaks to the disciples first of things which shall immediately happen, namely the destruction of the temple, the disciples being martyred etc.

from matthew chapt 24

[b]

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another
[/b]

in vs 6 we see Christ says that all these things will happen but the end is not yet because there will be pestilences, earthquakes etc. it is said that this is the beginning of sorrows, not the end. here it doesn't necessarily say that the disciples would see the end, but would witness the beginning of sorrows. however then there is the issue of matthew 16 vs 28...

If all the judgements in Revelation already occured in our past (the first century) then only those who were beheaded back then were to reign with Christ for 1,000 year (IOW not everyone will reign with Christ). Here is the scripture...

i'm indeed aware of that scripture and that only the beheaded would rule with Christ in the thousand years, however that is a period of perfect peace wherein the enemy will not be able to tempt anyone and as far as i can tell (which i concede may not be far) has not yet happened. even if it was that those beheaded for Christ in the 1st century only would rule, we would have seen or heard of these ones by now at least right?

Most people are taught to read revelation with the understanding that it has to happen in a time still in our future. That biased outlook requires that the book was addressed to us today, when simply, it does not (it was addressed to seven actual first century churches.

well i think that most people read the book of revelation as being in the future because there is nothing really to support the idea that the things which are described therein have occurred (sea turning into blood, the moon turning blood red etc) and these are the things i was referring to.

the matthew henry commentary says this about matthew 16:28 which may be a starting point as we seek to understand what the Lord is trying to get across.

[b]Behold the Judge standeth before the door. It is spoken as a favour to those that should survive the present cloudy time, that they should see better days. Note, It is desirable to share with the church in her joys, Dan. 12:12. Observe, Christ saith, Some shall live to see those glorious days, not all; some shall enter into the promised land, but others shall fall in the wilderness. He does not tell them who shall live to see this kingdom, lest if they had known, they should have put off the thoughts of dying, but some of them shall; Behold, the Lord is at hand. The Judge standeth before the door; be patient, therefore, brethren.[/b]

perhaps Christ was speaking of the disciples remaining alive in Him in spirit after death and speaking of some rather than all because Judas was yet in their midst? if this is so then we know Judas would be the only one to taste death for betraying Christ, death being the final death in the lake of fire. and why would (assuming this refers to all the disciples) they die when Christ returned?Paul also speaks of "We who are alive in Christ when He returns" when he speaks of the changing of all believers from corruptibility to incorruptibility. Perhaps this has to do with being alive in Christ only being possible by being dead to the world?

whoa... a LOT to chew on...

X
Xtian

Just wanted to say I am going to reply back but work has kept me busy (we are trying to finish rehabbing a house this week). I hope to have one this weekend. Warning tho because it could be a long post.

What is most important tho is that Jesus offers salvation, strength and peace to those that repent and follow Him.

:-)

I
IRONMAN

bro Xtian


Xtian wrote:
Just wanted to say I am going to reply back but work has kept me busy (we are trying to finish rehabbing a house this week). I hope to have one this weekend. Warning tho because it could be a long post.

What is most important tho is that Jesus offers salvation, strength and peace to those that repent and follow Him.

:-)

a long post?!?! NNNOOOO!!!! :-P i'll be looking forward to it bro so we can learn whatever the Lord would have us learn.

in regards to the last part of your post i say yay and amen.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


Xtian wrote:
The original post assumes that there is still a future end times, mark and anti-christ ahead of us.

What if it already happened in the past?

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I say to you, there are [u]some of those who are standing here who will not taste death[/u] until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."


Hey Xtian,
If I was to say "there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste [b]haggis[/b] until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." would that mean that if someone was force fed haggis, then Christ has come back? The point that most eschatologists miss here is the word "taste". According to W.E Vine, tasete here is translated from the Greek word:
geuo (1089), “[b]to make to taste[/b],” is used in the middle voice, signifying “to taste” (a) naturally, Matt. 27:34; Luke 14:24; John 2:9; Col. 2:21; (b) metaphorically, of [b]Christ’s “tasting” death, implying His personal experience in [u]voluntarily[/u] undergoing death[/b], Heb. 2:9; of believers (negatively) as to “tasting” of death, Matt. 16:28; Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27; John 8:52; of [b]“tasting” the heavenly gift (different from receiving it)[/b], Heb. 6:4; “the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,” 6:5; “that the Lord is gracious,”

The issue here would appear to be one of [b]willing participation[/b] more than the [b]experience alone[/b]. This view is considerably reinforced when the verse is placed into the context of what Christ is actually saying here,

Matthew 16:24-28 (KJV)
[b]24[/b] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man [b]will[/b] {thelo (2309), to will, to wish, implying volition and purpose - W.E. Vine} come after me, let him [b]deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me[/b].
[b]25[/b] For whosoever [b]will[/b] {thelo (2309)} save his life shall lose it: and whosoever [b]will[/b] {thelo (2309)} lose his life for my sake shall find it.
[b]26[/b] For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
[b]27[/b] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
[b]28[/b] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which [b]shall not taste of death, till they see[/b] the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Note that this seems to display a "cause and effect" senario, with "will" leading to "shall". Paul uses similar terminology in 2 Tim 3:12:
Yea, and all that [b]will[/b] {thelo (2309)} live godly in Christ Jesus [b]shall[/b] suffer persecution.

Anyone who studying Greek wil notice that the wor "shall" has been inserted into the sentance, in order to help us "non-greeks" understand it. Try reading the sentances without the shall, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Basically, Christ and Paul are saying, "If you [b]will[/b] choose something, the there will be an ensuring result, that [b]shall[/b] happen." The "shall" isn't chosen, the "will" is.

Relating this back to Mat 5:28, it could be said that there are some who will not [b]choose[/b] to "taste" until Christ returns to establish His Millenial Kingdom. But at that point, it will be too late to "lose (your) life for (His) sake" in order that you may (find) it.

Granted this is only one verse but its from Jesus Himself. So unless there are some original disciples still hanging around, I have to contend that all this end times stuff was fulfilled in AD 70 when God punished Israel for its sin and rejection of Christ.

I tend to lean away from the "futurist/pre-trib" stnce that is prevailent in most of christendom today. However, preterism had too many whole. Like for instance, the presence of the "wailing wall" in Jerusalem, in light of Luke 21:5-6 and the conspicuous absense absence of a return to Israel with brokeness and weeping, that comes after the "time of Jacob's trouble" and the coinciding anihilation of the remainder who are not part of "the remnant that will be saved" (for more on this, check out [url=http://www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/shoah/shoah.htm]The Holocaust, where was God?[/url] by Art Katz, for an adequate treatment of this theme).

For myself, I tend to lean toward a fusion between the kind of "Progressive Historicist" views typical of [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2411&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Edgar F Parkyns[/url] and the "Messianic Madrashic" views of [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5497&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]J Jacob Prasch[/url]. I've noticed that God rarely allows "His things" to be easily defined (isn't that right, all you "modified Arminians" out there). Be careful of living in the extremes. Sometimes when it comes to choosing between "black and white", black is a choice in greys, where white is the thing that has never been considered. Eschatology is best explained like this. It has to be precise, because God pre-ordained it. Mind you, that doesn't guarantee that you can speculate what will happen, or tick off what already has. The point is, as Parkyns puts it, is to always "know where you are in the book" (if you don't get that, listen to Parkyns;-)).

I
IRONMAN

bro Aaron
very interesting indeed...

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