Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

There are also instances in Acts where people received the Holy Spirit and there is no mention of tongues.

We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. You can not be saved without having the Holy Spirit. Tongues is NOT the Biblical evidence of being filled w/the Holy Spirit. The Biblical evidence is the FRUITS of the Spirit, not the gifts. That was Pauls who point when he wrote to the Corinthians.

Krispy

Stever posts:

This is excellent teaching about the difference between salvation, and the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, the Baptism of Fire that empowers believers to witness and go about his business with boldness.

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The Baptism in the Holy Spirit versus Salvation
I. Question #1: Is every Christian, those who are "born-again", also baptized in the Holy Spirit, that is, is the baptism in the Holy Spirit automatically received with Salvation?

A. Read John 20:22
" 22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

The context of this passage is the time between the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus. Here Jesus breathes on His apostles, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit (that is, they are "born-again", i.e. "saved"). However, the first time that the baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs is on Pentecost, which occurred after the ascension.

B. Read Luke 24:49
"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed (endued) with POWER from on high."

During this same period between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the ascension Jesus promises the apostles the baptism in the Holy Spirit and orders them to wait for it in the city of Jerusalem.

C. Read Acts 1:5
"for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with [in] the Holy Spirit not many many days from now."

Again the same promise and order not to leave the city of Jerusalem to the apostles by Jesus, before He was taken up into heaven.

D. Read Acts 2:4
"And they were ALL filled with the HOLY GHOST and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
This is the point where the apostles received the baptism IN the Holy Spirit. However as we have seen there existed a period of time between where they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit and were BAPTIZED IN the Holy Spirit. These were separate acts and each have a different reason. Salvation comes with receiving the Holy Spirit, that is we are saved from the penalty of sin. We become sons of God, that is we receive the authority to act as the sons of God. With the baptism in the Holy Spirit we receive the power to act as the sons of God (incidentally, there is a third level where we receive the direction to act as a son of God).

II. Question #2: Ok, I can see that the apostles were first saved and THEN baptized in the Holy Spirit later, but what about ordinary people like me?

A. Read Acts 8:5
"And Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming CHRIST to them."
B. Read Acts 8:8
"And there was much JOY in that city."
C. Read Acts 8:12
"But when they BELIEVED Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike."

They were preaching the message of Jesus and His offer of Salvation. They also accepted the message and signs which Philip brought, thus they were "born-again".

D. This is just what Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
He who has BELIEF and has been BAPTIZED shall be SAVED; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

At this point the people of Samaria are born-again, but nothing has been said, one way or the other, about BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

E. Read Acts 8:14 through 17
"Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they SENT them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.
For He (THE HOLY GHOST) had not yet FALLEN UPON ANY of them; they had simply been baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.Then they began laying their hands on them , and they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit."

Thus, we see that the people of Samaria first were born-again, then baptized in the Holy Spirit later; this is just what we saw with the apostles themselves.

III. Question #3: Are there other examples of people first being born-again,
A Read Acts 19:1 through 6
"And it came about that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found some disciples,and he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED ?' And they said to him, 'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit'.And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized? And they said, 'Into John's baptism',And Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling people to believe in Him who was coming after Him, that is Jesus.'And when they heard this, they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.
And when [b]Paul LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM[/b], [b]the HOLY SPIRIT came on them , and they began speaking with tongues and they were prophesying[/b].
The people had believed the message preached by John about Jesus, they were believers, THEY WERE "SAVED" OR "BORN AGAIN". However they were never taught to be water baptized as the completion of righteousness (enter the death and resurrection as a symbolic act)-they were baptized only for repentence. Also, they were NOT BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. When Paul told them of these things, first they were water baptized in the NAME of Jesus and second he LAID HANDS on them and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Thus, these examples here explain my personal understanding of what really happens to the believer. The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST is an entirely separate event that takes place by the LAYING ON OF HANDS. Each of us can say that one do receive the Holy Spirit at the new birth, be saved, but NOT BE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

IV. Question #4: Does this mean that some large period of time must pass between the new birth and the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

A. Read Acts 10:44 through 48
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the Word (Gospel).
And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.

For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'
And he ordered them to be baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.

These people were Gentiles who were not raised knowing God, they were God fearing people, they were good people. They asked Peter to come deliver the message of salvation because God told them to do so in a vision. These people were not Christians, that is, they were not "saved" or "born-again". Peter delivered the salvation message as stated in verses 34 to 43, in verse 43 he specifically defined the requirement to be "saved", "Of Him all prophets bear witness that through HIS NAME everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins". After this they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit. Here the group is preached to, they believed and thus were "born-again". Immediately after the new birth they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, even before the water baptism. This is the only case in the New Testament where this is seen, the normal case is first salvation, then later the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

V. Question #5: Is there a Scripture which lists these sequence of steps toward the baptism in the Holy Spirit?
A. Read Ephesian 1:13
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE,"
The steps to the baptism in the Holy Spirit are 1) listen to the message of truth (the gospel), 2) believe the message (become saved), and 3) then be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

VI. Question #6: How does God decide who to baptize in the Holy Spirit?
A. Read Luke 11:13
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK Him?"

First off, God is not the Father of the evil people, Satan is their father! Secondly, if God is your Father you are His child. If you are a child or a son of God then you are born again, i.e. saved. Read John 7:38 and 39, "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Thus first we must be a child of God, then last and most important we must ask for the gift of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Thus, God does not make the decision as to who He baptizes, we must as children of God request the baptism from our heart.

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I pray this has been a blessing to all.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever, I dont deny what that there is a point when believers seem to become empowered from on high. Some call it Baptism of the Holy Spirit, others call it The Second Blessing, still others call it Sanctification. However, I strongly disagree that a case can be made from scripture that the initial sign is tongues, and that if one has not spoken in tongues then they have not received the Baptism. Scripture does show 3 cases where that happened, but it did not happen in ever case.

No one here would question whether Billy Graham has been empowered from above, and yet he has never spoken in tongues. I dont agree with everything Billy Graham has done, especially concerning his fellowship with the wicked Roman Catholic Church, but thats beside the point.

John Wesley did not speak in tongues. Charles Finney did not speak in tongues. Are we to believe that these men did not move in the power of the Holy Spirit? No, I think not. As far as I can tell most of the men who were martyred by the Roman Catholic Church as the Reformation was beginning to take shape never spoke in tongues.

Matthew Henry, who wrote the greatest and most insightful Bible commentary in history never spoke in tongues.

Where is the evidence that tongues is the sign of the Baptism? There isnt any... unless you follow jokers like Copeland, Hagin, Hinn and Marilyn Hickey. And these hucksters cant hold a candle next to the men of God I mentioned previously.

Tongues [i]can[/i] be a sign of the Baptism... but scripture shows and teaches that the real signs of being Baptised in the Spirit are the following:

[b]love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, & temperance[/b] (temperance... otherwise known as self control)

Krispy

The most amazing aspect of tongues - which you might rather consider - is where a minister will be preaching and in his audience there will be a person who cannot understand the language he speaks but is understanding the sermon perfectly. I personally know of a couple preachers/evangelists this has happened to. Now this is awesome, IMHO!

I personally know missionaries who have experienced this. And this is the tongues that happened in Acts Chapter 2.

As for other religions, every major religion has some sect in it that practices tongues. To me... tongues isnt a sign of anything if it isnt accompanied with fruit.

Krispy

I dont have a problem with that, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for Chuck Smith. I believe (and Acts 2 backs me up) that tongues are earthly languages, and not some gibberish called "heavenly" or "angelic" language. No where in scripture are we encouraged to pray in the "tongues of angels". When Paul mentioned "tongues of angels" he was using a that as a way of making a point. He was using an exagerative expression. We do it everyday. Lawyers utilize it all the time. Yet many have made a whole doctrine based on one verse, and that verse has been grossly misinterpreted.

Anyway... I believe that what Chuck Smith is describing here is the legitimate gift of tongues. Not the normal for what we see in the usual Sunday morning circus.

Krispy

What is the difference of praying in the spirit and praying in the understanding?

Preach... I never said people shouldnt pray in tongues. I said scripture does not support the theory of a heavenly or angelic language that believers will speak in.

Krispy

linda7 wrote:
Hi letsgetbusy,

Thank you for addressing my question. The thing that I am eager to know is, how do you know that you have been Baptized in the Holy Ghost?

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Stever's response:

The first thing that happened to me,as well as my wife, is that we immediately spoke in an unkown tongue. Soon after that God's Word came alive for both of us.

I had been praying for over 2 years that my wife would get into God's Word, but she never did. Every time she got in my car she wanted Christian radio off and the Oldies but Goodies on. Everytime I got into her car, the dial was always turned to the Oldies. After her Baptism in the Holy Ghost God's Word came alive to her. She is still involved with two separate Bible Studies each week. She also reads and studies her Bible each and every day. Also, she never listens to the Oldies anymore, either.

Both of us now find ourselves compelled to witness to others that the Holy Spirit puts in our path.

Our lives have been changed by this Baptism. We are both on fire for the Lord, and for His Word, and for His will in our lives.

God bless,

Stever

Hi Linda: I just wanted to provide you with more information about the wonderful thing that you are about to ask for and receive--the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

My wife and I both received this baptism on the same evening, on 6/4/1999 at the home of our friends. Jerry had the most wonderful walk with the Lord. What he had is what I wanted.

All those things that I described in my previous post were true on the night of 6/4/1999. We had originally planned to have a Bible Study that night at Jerry & Audrey's home, however that morning I talked to Jerry and told him that I would like to receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. His response was- come in expectation of receiving it.

My wife sat on the floor, in front of the couch, and I sat in a chair. Jerry asked me if I had prayed to receive this Baptism of fire, and I said yes. He came over to where I was sitting, anointed my head with oil, and layed hands on me and prayed that I would receive this Baptism of Fire and Power, and that I would immediately speak in tongues.

I could not speak in tongues. I was frozen, and couldn't get past this point. He then asked me if I had ever been critical or negative of this spiritual gift from God in the past. I then remembered that many years ago, while I was in College, I had written a paper in one of my Psychology classes about the total gibberish that tongues consisted of. It went hand in hand with an article that had appeared in Psychology today, on the Front Cover (probably in 1973-1974).

He then took authority over "whatever negative spirit or force" that was blocking me from receiving this Baptism, and from receiving this gift of tongues, and bound it ---in the name of Jesus Christ, and I immediately started speaking in tongues, and crying, and praising the Lord.

Jerry turned to my wife, and looking down at her said, would you like to receive this Baptism? I could not believe it--she got up, and said----yes. I gave her my seat and he led her into the Baptism of the Holy Ghost in the same way he led me. However, she had no problem with speaking in tongues.

I hope this helps you, as well as Letsgetbusy, and anyone else who God has put it on their hearts to receive this Baptism of Fire, this Baptism of power.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Hi Linda, Great testimony! Did you know that the Baptism represents the priestly garments spoken of in Ezk.44.17. Read it and you'll see the great for it and the responsibilty we have when baptised.

Blessings,

:-)rm

If you carefully read it it stipulates Linen as the garment, a garment that doesn't make you perspire ---- and God gives His reasons. I've mentioned elseware that there are three manifestations of the Holy Spirit. "With", "in", and "upon". The baptism is the "upon" manifestation. Read Jesus' last words before His ascension in Luke 24:49 (NASB-U)
"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father [b]upon[/b] you; but you are to stay in the city until you are [b]clothed[/b] with power from on high."

And again in Acts 1:4 (NASB-U)
Gathering them together, He commanded them [b]not[/b] to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

He said this to His disciples already "indwelt" and born again by the Holy ghost in John 20:22 (NASB-U)

"And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

Acts 2 and the coming upon came 50 days later.

Baptism is not for salvation. Baptism is for the unction to function as Father purposed for us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

I hope that helps clear some of it up it for you.

Blessings,

:-)rm

Absolutely!

Here's a paper that will help all who seek the gift; The Promise of the Father.

In Him,

:-Drm

JESUS CHRIST, THE BAPTIZER

“THERE WAS A MAN SENT FROM GOD, whose name was John. .. . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.... And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

“And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:6, 29, 32—34).

Every one of the four Gospels spells out John’s declaration, “I indeed baptize you with water; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” When the Pharisees asked, “Why baptizeth thou?” he replied, “That he should be made manifest.. . therefore I am come baptizing with water” (John 1: 25, 31). Furthermore, John assured them that he was sent to baptize with water (vs. 33). It was his ministry. This fact was recognized to such an extent that he became known as “John the Baptist.”

I doubt whether one could find a ten-year-old in Christendom that has not yet learned about John the Baptist. All through the ages, generation after generation, men have learned of this great prophet, but they know him by what he did and not by what he said or prophesied. Yet we know that he was both prophet and baptizer.

In recent times I have been astonished to find that very few Christians have ever heard that Christ is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. They know Him as the Lamb of God, as Saviour; and as the Son of God, our Lord; but they are unfamiliar with the fact that He was announced to the world as the One to whom God gave the ministry of baptizing with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus Christ is both Saviour and Baptizer. We have no doubt that He is as much the Saviour today as when He died on Calvary as the Lamb of God. Even so, He is still the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as much as He was when He commenced this ministry on the Day of Pentecost, for He is the “same, yesterday, today and forever.”

I have just traveled in seven countries and addressed over 300 ministers belonging to seven of the major classical Protestant churches. During these three months I have read a great variety of ecclesiastical writings, touching upon almost every subject and event between Easter and Pentecost. From Ascension to Pentecost. I have listened to many radio talks in several languages. Not once did I hear a minister, see in a paper, or hear over the radio any mention that Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit. In conversations many that questioned me or spoke to me expressed some surprise at my strong emphasis upon the message that Christ is the Baptizer in the Spirit. I have heard much about the work of the Spirit, about receiving the Spirit, and even about the coming of the Spirit, but nothing is ever said about being baptized with the Spirit.

The first intimation in history that a baptism with the Spirit was a possible event in the life of a human being came from John the Baptist. However, he did not announce the experience but rather the one who gave such an experience. He announced that the Baptizer was coming. He clearly states that God had told him that Christ would be the Baptizer with the Holy Ghost. He also assures us that the image for this act of Christ was his own act of baptizing in the river. From the very beginning, therefore, all John’s converts fully expected an experience that would be as overwhelming as their baptism in the river. These converts had an encounter with the baptizer and not with water or even the river. What they were to expect was an encounter with the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and not with the Spirit or with the work of the Spirit in their lives.

For every baptism there must be an agent to baptize, and an element with or into which to baptize, and finally a candidate to be baptized. Such a candidate must present himself and ask for baptism. Then there must be a total and complete surrender to the baptizer and not to the element in which he baptizes. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is an encounter with Christ, the Baptizer. The candidates are those who have already had an encounter with Him as the Lamb of God, the Saviour, who took away all their sin and made them worthy temples of the Holy Spirit.

The disciples who left John and followed Christ that He might baptize them with the Holy Spirit discovered that He was full of the Spirit. They saw His miracles to prove it and heard His word to confirm it. Then He gave them power and authority to cast out devils and heal the sick, but that was not the baptism in the Spirit that they expected. Finally they saw Him weak and as a Lamb led to the slaughter, and He opened not His mouth. He died on the cross and was laid in the tomb, and no one had been baptized in the Spirit. What about John’s prophecy? Was it all mythical or mystical?

In the evening of that first Easter day of Resurrection, He suddenly and unexpectedly appeared in their midst. Then He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” This was after He had explained, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” But how did His Father send Him? First He came, born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35), and then He was endued with the Spirit (Luke 4: 1) to commence His earthly ministry. So here the disciples became the very first members of a new body, the church. He breathed eternal life into them. Calvary, the all-effective altar of God, had dealt with the sin question, and those who were dead in trespasses and sin now could receive the life-giving, regenerating Holy Spirit. This was for them the occasion where they were baptized into one body by the Spirit (I Cor.12:13).

But John said that God had said that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not that He would give the Spirit. I wonder how these disciples thought and felt about all these strange things? However, a few weeks later Jesus again spoke to the same men to whom He had said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Now He confirms John’s message. He says to them, “John truly baptized with water: but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1: 5). Here Christ accepts and confirms the same image that God had given to John, a baptism in water and a baptism in the Holy Spirit—indeed a river baptism, but the river of life must first begin to flow upon earth.

Several predictions were confirmed on the Day of Pentecost. The Father gave the promised Holy Ghost, who was heard as wind and seen as fire. Jesus began to baptize in the Spirit and fire. The immediate consequence of this baptism was that the candidates began to speak with other tongues as Jesus had promised (Mark 16: 17). Then the Holy Spirit began to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment as Peter preached to the multitude (John 16:8). But the record says, “They were all filled {overflowed] with the Holy Ghost, and [of which was] they began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts2:4).

It seems that from this very day onward much more emphasis was given to the experience of the disciples than to the act of Jesus the Baptizer, and the whole controversy began to revolve around glossolalia—speaking with other tongues—which was the very simple consequence of this baptism in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the gift and tongues was the consequence. These tongues were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and not a manifestation of the ecstasy of the human spirit. Speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit or, as Paul puts it, “Praying with the Spirit,” is an act of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit which transcends the understanding (I Cor.14: 14, 15).

Thus it seems clear that on the day of Pentecost the spirit of the disciples was baptized into the Holy Spirit and their bodies were filled with the Holy Spirit—overflowed with the Holy Spirit. The fact that they commenced to speak “with the Spirit” was proof of this overflowing.

In our day many pray for an infilling, an experience, instead of seeking the Baptizer. They ask the Holy Spirit to fill them when they should be asking Christ to baptize them. The baptism will produce the filling. This filling of the body by the baptism of the human spirit into the Holy Spirit produces an overflowing (see John 7:38) which causes the vocal organs to go into action and speak a language that is unknown to the candidate. He may be fully aware of what he is doing but does not know what he is saying (I Cor.14:14).

On the day of Pentecost God gave the Holy Spirit and Christ then baptized His followers into the Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4). About 10 years later, according to Acts 10:44—46, when the Apostle Peter dared to preach to the Gentiles for the first time (Acts 11:19), these same Gentiles received exactly the same experience that the apostles and the disciples of Christ had on the day of Pentecost. The record says, “And they of the circumcision [Jews] were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God” (Acts 10:46). The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem objected to all this. (Acts 11:2). Then Peter in his defense said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11: 15, 16). In other words, it was the same Baptizer who baptized into the same element, with the same consequences. The consequences were what convinced the Jewish Christians that the experience of the Gentiles was valid, for they heard them speak with tongues (Acts 10:46).

From this record it is quite clear that during the first decade Peter and the church in Jerusalem believed that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and that “speaking with tongues” was the immediate consequence or confirmation of this baptism. During this last decade in our time the Christian world has become more conscious of the Holy Spirit and many are reaching out for His power and a charismatic ministry. However, it seems to me that unless the church once again lifts up Christ as the Baptizer, many will seek the blessing from the Holy Spirit and fail to find it because He will always honor Christ.
To get the baptism in the Spirit everyone must seek an encounter with the Baptizer, who began this ministry on the day of Pentecost when He truly came back in the Spirit to baptize His disciples. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever (Heb.13:8).

David Duplessis .......[Mr. Pentecost]

Your post was perfect teaching on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, Ormly.

David du Plessis' book "A Man Called Mr. Pentecost" can be found at
http://www.blretail.com/mancalledmrpentecost.htm

This is another book by du Plessis--The Spirit Bade Me Go:
http://www.blretail.com/mancalledmrpentecost.htm

However, with my endorsement of du Plessis understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and how to receive it, I have to differ with his understanding of the Church. He was involved with
the Ecumenical movement, the bringing together of Rome (Catholicism) with the Protestant Church as well as teaching that the Church, not Jesus Christ, would establish Christ's Kingdom on this earth!

So, even though he is absolutely correct in his understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that provides power to the believer, and the speaking in an unknown tongue, he was absolutely WRONG on what that Baptism of power was to be used for!!!!!!

This is from the foundations of Apostcy:
http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/founda1.htm

The Forties
I only want to mention two things about this decade. One is a man and the other is an organization.
40s: DAVID DU PLESSIS. In 1947, the First World Pentecostal Conference was held in Zurich, Switzerland. This conference brought into prominence David Du Plessis, "Mr. Pentecost," who went on to organize three other World Conferences.

Du Plessis participated in the first of six assemblies of the World Council of Churches (Amsterdam, 1948), a council which :

1. concluded that men have an obligation to recognize the brotherhood amongst denominations and to recognize all churches alike,
2. introduced the idea of worldwide unity to "claim for Christ the whole world and all aspects of life,"
3... and to bring to light the idea that the Kingdom of God was being established upon the earth.

Du Plessis's involvement in the WCC assembly was not a one time event. In his book and lectures, he went on to promote the WCC's "Week of Prayer for Christian Unity," whose theme was "The Unity of the Local Congregation in the Unity of the Universal Church." The exhortation for the eighth day of prayer went like this:
"As you pray remember that you are a member of the whole Body of Christ and in particular reflect on the need FOR MANIFESTATIONS OF UNITY through Church organizations - denominational boards, church synods, confessional alliances, local and national councils of churches, and especially for the World Council of Churches."

Du Plessis was a watchdog of the pentecostal experience. He said that from 1900-1908, the historic Protestant churches fought the Pentecostal revival and denounced it as from the devil. But by 1950-1958, the climate had changed and the Protestants' attitude had reversed. Du Plessis said that by 1961,
"I beheld the results of the change and can declare the Pentecostal revival within the churches is gathering force and speed."
By 1963, Du Plessis had preached the Pentecostal experience in 45 countries. He was a major player in the ecumenical movement from the pentecostal faction, and became a bridge between Rome and the world of Pentecostalism. In his book, The Spirit Bade me Go, he states his call by God as being
"called to labor for better understanding and closer fellowship between the Pentecostal movements, and to bring the Pentecostal message and blessing into the ranks OF ALL THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES."
40s: LATTER RAIN In Canada, other seeds were being planted that would eventually affect the future direction of the Church as a whole. George and Earnest Hawtin and George Warnock became early leaders in what would become known as the Latter Rain movement. Latter Rain brought with it the belief that one had to have special knowledge, or "gnosis," to attain the fullness of God. Those who achieved "gnosis" would become the "true seed" who would bring deliverance to the world and establish Christ's Kingdom on earth.

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God Bless,

Stever :-)

Notwithstanding, he did give us rectification in the matter of recieving the gift in the way that closes the door to any counterfeit desiring entrance to our mind. The gift will edify us in Christ Jesus per John 17 and carries with a reciprocal from the Father who is also present in the equation.

David De, as well as most other teacher-leaders, didn't possess ALL the truth. The church doesn't possess ALL the truth, either. That's why we have so many denominations of it and why it is so vitaly necessary we have the unction to function in the matter for the reason stated in my above remark.

One of the contributers to my spiritual growth has been Oswald Chambers and authors who have influenced him like Geo. MacDonald, a universalist, but his own experience in recieving the gift of the baptism of the Holy Ghost leaves me wanting and yet there can be no denying his intimacy with the Father.

Thanks Stever,

Ken

Amen, Linda!

View this article of what it can really be all about if we were taught properly.

http://www.jesus.org.uk/congo.html

Blessings,

:-)rm

Ps. "God does not give us overcoming life; He gives us life as we overcome......Arise from the dead".

[i]Oswald Chambers[/i]

Linda posted:
"A second point I would like to make is, I have a friend who received tongues many years ago, but does not have any power to witness and it bothers her. She fell away from the faith also for about 20 years. I am beginning to wonder what did she receive then? "

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Stever's response:

David du Plessis fell into lots of trouble after receiving this Baptism of the Holy Ghost in his later years. This is not a one time event, the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Once you receive it, you have to continually pray to God for a refill! Based upon the way that du Plessis ended up, by embracing Catholicism and the Virgin Mary, I really wonder if he was even saved at all. At the very least he was deceived, and based upon his actions, Christ will be the final judge of whether he was really saved or not.

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[u][i][b][color=00CC00]DU PLESSIS WORKED WITH CATHOLICS -[/color][/b][/i][/u]-

David du Plessis was known as "Mr. Pentecost" but "Mr. Ecumenical" would have been just as accurate. At his death in 1987, he had been active in World Council of Churches and Catholic-Pentecostal dialogues (see 4/15/87 CC). He accepted the Catholic dogma of papal infallibility and tolerated apparitions of the Virgin Mary. [b]He was the first non-Roman Catholic ever to receive the distinguished Renemerenti Medal (11/98 Charisma). [/b] He was a resident consultant on ecumenical affairs at [b][color=00CC00]Fuller Seminary[/color][/b].
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This should provide some light on your friend. Just because she said that she received this baptism does not mean that she really did. Anyone can babble and pretend they are speaking in tongues. The person that has been Spirit Filled fells the anointing, the unction that is in his/her throat before the words come out (at least that is the way it is with us [my wife and myself]. One of the difficulties in the Spirit Filled, Baptised in the Holy Ghost movement is that there is lots of flesh out there. There are also those that say they have received this baptism, but have not.

Christ said that none of His would ever escape His hand.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever posts:

This is more information about David du Plessis and his fall into Catholicism.

By David W. Cloud
Copyright 1991

Another example of Townsend’s (Cameron Townsend, founder of Wycliffe, and he established Wycliffe on a doctrinally compromised foundation) extreme ecumenism is found in the following testimony of the late David du Plessis, the charismatic leader who was instrumental in bringing Pentecostals together with Rome:

“Cam Townsend (founder of Wycliffe) came to me ( du Plessis ) and indicated that he was going to send me to the [Roman Catholic] Vatican II Council in 1962 as Wycliffe’s representative. When I arrived in Rome, a particular cardinal called and said he was going to pick me up at my hotel. ... The cardinal arrived at my hotel, and when he came in the room, we both hugged one another and cried.

“I believe that God is going to unify the church. When you study the history of the church, you will notice that when Christianity became less and less ecumenical and more and more national, she also became less and less charismatic and more formal and divided by theological dissensions. The unity that God will bring about will be both charismatic and ecumenical” (David du Plessis, “David du Plessis Speaks On,” Paraclete Journal, Fellowship Christian Church, Cincinati, Ohio, Oct. 1986, pp. 11,14).
The remainder of this article can be found at:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/wycliffebible.htm

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One thing that I feel here is pride, and one thing I see here is the flesh. Pride always precedes the fall.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Begging you pardon Stever, It is NOT an infilling that needs repeating when speaking of the baptism. It is the "Coming upon". A one time event. One is infilled when born again. If you don't see it that way then please explain what being again means and what happens when one is. Our example for this is Jesus Himself. One infilling, His birth, one baptism, the beginning of His ministry. Now what needs to be maintained is our allegiance to the Father as He maintained it when He uttered to Himself in the wilderness: "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". For Him the word was the Christ of Himself, equal to the Father. For us it is Himself as we are born again of His Spirit, full of the Godhead.

Being full of the Holy Ghost is for others to experience the anointing upon us because of our intimacy with Him and in Him.(Jn 17)We may not be aware of our influence at such moments but "Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me." It is done by diligence and the the anointing [b]upon[/b] our lives; The unseen guest [b]within[/b] us who is [b]with[/b] us. His Life, His Faith, lived out BY us. Gal 2.20.

Thanks and Blessings,

8-)rm

Stever responds to Ormly:

I have found in my walk that once I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the “overflow” that it is referred to, that it was not as powerful over time, as it was on the first night that I received it. The more I thought about it, I realized in my spirit that it was exactly what it is called--the overflow. So, I started asking God for this Baptism of the Holy Ghost again each day, the Baptism of Power, the overflow.

Why do I do that? I have found that it gives me a closer walk with God. The “overflow” that I received is exactly that—an overflow. On the first night that I received this Baptism I was overjoyed in my Spirit, and close to God beyond measure. As the weeks and months went by I did not feel as close to HIM as on that night. I started praying for the overflow again, for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost to come UPON me for the work that he had for me for that day.

It has helped my walk, and I surely need more of His Spirit in my life. This prayer also keeps me on track, and keeps me focused me on my purpose for living. My purpose is to do His will, to witness to anyone that He sends my way, and to lead others into the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (the Baptism that comes UPON the believer by the laying on of hands and provides the power and boldness to go about His work).

To sum this up, I am very concerned about the FLESH that gets in our way, once we have this Baptism of power. By continually focusing on God, and praying to Him each day to empower me for another day, my flesh is constantly kept in check. If something supernatural happens, I know that He is behind it, not me. I know that He is what it (life) is all about, not me.

By doing this I have come to the understanding and belief that:

1. He is the one with the Healing ministry, not me. He only uses me when He wills

2. He is the one with the Word of Knowledge ministry & Words of Wisdom ministry. He only uses me when He wills.

3. He is the one with the faith ministry, not me. He only uses me when He wills.

4. He is the one with the Miracle Working ministry, not me. He only uses me when He wills.

5. He is the one with the Prophecy ministry, not me. He only uses me when He wills

6. He is the one with the "distinguishing of spirits ministry", not me. He only uses me when He wills.

7. He is the one with the tongues ministry, not me. He only uses me and gives me this gift as He wills.

8. He is the one with the "interpretation of tongues" ministry, not me. He only uses me, and give me this gift as He wills.

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God bless,

Stever :-)

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In other words you must feel this overflow and sense of His presence or feel disconnected from Him? Is that what I'm given to understand? If that is the case then I wonder what Jesus must have felt when he was in the wilderness?

Blessings,

:-(rm

Stever posts to Linda and Olmy:

The following represents my position on the "re-filling" that is supported by Scripture, as well as my own personal walk. My position is also supported by D.L. Moody, Floyd Nolen Jones, Pat Robertson and others. Most important is that it is supported by Scripture.

[b][color=0066FF]Discipleship[/color][/b]

[u][b][color=0066FF]The Filling of the Holy Spirit[/color][/b][/u]

By Joel Comiskey

CBN.com – For two years, I lived in Pasadena, California, the home of the famous New Year’s Day Rose Parade. One year during the parade, a beautiful float suddenly sputtered and coasted to a halt. It was out of gas. The whole parade was held up until someone could get a can of gas over to the float and get it moving again. The amusing thing was that this float represented the Standard Oil Company! Even with its vast oil resources, the company’s truck had run out of gas.

In much the same way, Christians often neglect their spiritual maintenance, and although they have been filled with the Holy Spirit, they need to be refilled. When the greatest evangelist of the nineteenth century, D.L. Moody, was asked why he said he needed to be filled continually with the Holy Spirit, he replied, “Because I leak!” Like Moody, we all run out of gas and need the power of the Holy Spirit to recharge our lives. This article will clarify how to be filled continually with the Holy Spirit.

The Power of the Holy Spirit

In Ephesians 5:18, Paul wrote: “Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.” In the original Greek, the phrase be filled is a present-tense verb. To signify a “one-time filling,” Paul would have used the past tense or a future verb tense; instead, he chose the present tense to denote that the filling of the Holy Spirit is not a one-time event, but a continual experience. Scripture says that we must be continually filled with the Spirit, not just once or twice.

The word filling seems awkward when referring to the Holy Spirit’s entrance into our lives. The Spirit of God is not a liquid, like water. He does not fill a person the way cold milk fills a cup. The Holy Spirit is God—He is one in essence with the Father and the Son—but He is also a distinct Person and has all the attributes of a person. That is why we refer to the Holy Spirit as the third Person of the Trinity. Many Scripture passages point to these facts. 1 Like a person, the Holy Spirit searches, helps and guides.2 He knows; He feels; He wills. Scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit’s mind, His love and His instruction.3 In Ephesians 4:30, Paul wrote: “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” The only way we can grieve someone is if the one we are grieving is a person.

Because the Holy Spirit is a Person, it makes more sense to talk about the Holy Spirit’s control or compulsion in our lives, rather than His filling of our lives. Holy Spirit-driven is a good way to look at our response to His control. A person who is filled with the Spirit is driven by the Spirit—driven in a gentle, loving way. A Spirit-driven person allows the Holy Spirit to direct and guide every decision, plan and activity. Because the world, the flesh and the devil oppose the Spirit-controlled lifestyle, we need to be filled and renewed continually.

I was first filled with the Holy Spirit in early 1974. In September 1973, approximately four months earlier, I had received Jesus by praying the prayer of salvation in my bedroom, yet I lacked power in my life. During those initial months as a Christian, I was afraid to proclaim to others my newfound faith in Christ. I was in my last year of high school and desperate to become bold about my faith. My lack of spiritual power led me to attend a miracle service of Shekinah Fellowship that gathered in a Foursquare church in downtown Long Beach, California.

Although I responded to the general altar call after the service, I knew exactly what I needed. I longed for power and boldness so that I would not be ashamed of my Christian faith. The elders at Shekinah prayed for me to receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I knew that they hoped I would immediately receive the gift of tongues as a sign that the Holy Spirit had fallen upon me.

I did not speak in tongues that night, but change was evident the very next day. My mom and I went to Pastor Chuck Smith’s church, Calvary Chapel, in Costa Mesa, California. All I could do was talk about Jesus—I witnessed about Jesus to everyone I saw that day. I even grilled my mother repeatedly about her faith. (She graciously overlooked a lot of zealous behavior in those days!)

My life was totally transformed from that night onward. I began to carry my Bible with me everywhere, setting it down on the right corner of each classroom desk at Millikan High School. I wanted people to know that I was a believer—and I had the confidence to prove it. The Shekinah Fellowship experience, however, was not enough. I needed repeated fillings of the Spirit’s grace and power.

Later, I did speak in tongues: I stepped out by faith and spoke in an unknown prayer language to God. Speaking in tongues was not a grand emotional experience for me, but it has helped me greatly during times when words cannot express my yearnings and petitions to God. I am thankful for the gift of tongues.

Some would call what happened to me at Shekinah Fellowship that night in 1974 “the baptism with the Holy Spirit.” Other would classify it as Joel Comiskey’s “first filling after conversion.” The most important point, however, is that I desperately needed His fullness in 1974, and I need it just as much today. I believe that my first filling in 1974 was not sufficient—it was only the first in a long line of subsequent encounters with the Holy Spirit.
Even in the book of Acts, those who experienced the Pentecostal outpouring with tongues of fire in chapter 2 still needed a fresh wind of the Holy Spirit in chapter 4. Only two chapters later, those same apostles prayed to the Lord and the place was shaken: “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly” (Acts 4:31).

It seems to me that our debates over terminology have often prevented us from seeking the Spirit’s continual fullness. All Christians can come together under the banner of eagerly desiring the Spirit’s fullness, even though not all believers label that experience in the same way. Craig Keener, a Southern Baptist professor at Eastern Seminary who had an experience of Holy Spirit similar to my own, said:

If we could get past some semantic debates in our discussions about the timing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we would have more time available for the more practical questions surrounding the Spirit’s empowerment. Nearly all Christians agree, for example, that all Christians have the Spirit by virtue of being born again. We also agree that we all should regularly experience a Spirit-filled life, walk in the Spirit, depend on the Spirit’s power in our behavior and witness, and be open to experiences from God’s Spirit subsequent to conversion.4

Before leading a small group seminar for Southern Baptist missionary leaders in Prague, Czech Republic, in 2003, I was approached by one of the missionary leaders who told me: “The only way to reach Eastern Europe with the Gospel is to seek the fullness of the Holy Spirit and operate in all of the gifts of the Spirit.” This missionary leader understood that heathen, demonic forces are too powerful for us to minister effectively apart from yielding completely to the Holy Spirit’s working. He wisely guarded his terminology, but he was speaking the same language that I hear repeatedly around the world. This Southern Baptist missionary wanted what other hungry believers across Christendom have desired throughout the ages: the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit’s presence in life and ministry.

Order your copy of The Spirit-Filled Small Group: Leading Your Group to Experience the Spiritual Gifts

More from Joel Comiskey

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God bless,

Stever :-)

Dear Bro Onesimus,

You assume much and leave out crucial reasoning for the evidence of tongues and why it is not only something to be desired but is shown by Paul's teaching to be vital/crucial in our journey to become what Father purposes for us.

Paul said that he prayed with the understanding, his own mind, and also in the Spirit where spirit to Spirit communication/fellowship in intimacy with Father more directly, happens. Should we not desire this intimacy MORE than anything?? Think of what would happen in our local assemblies if more of us did seek Him with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength! They would be "turned upside down".

Here:

1 Cor. 14:14-15 (NASB-U)
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

May I say that this is NOT the gift of tongues meant to directly edify the church, which was the point he was trying to make in the context of the chapter. He was alluding to his own PERSONAL/INTIMATE prayer life. However, we can say, by his life's example, that such a prayer life would indeed edify the church. Think about that aspect of it as Paul exemplified it by the power of his walk with the Lord. No doubt some will and presently do see it as one, but we know this was NO MERIT BADGE for him or any of the ones [b]properly[/b] taught and it recieved from him on such things in Christ. Consider this example:
Acts 19:1-6 (NASB-U)
It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. [2] He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." ...............[6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Was this the gift of tongues or the simple evidence of the baptism? I say the latter. Certainly Paul was justly persuaded of that. But then what gift[s] did they receive? We know from context they prophecied. Was it the gift of direct prophecy, as Prophet might do, or was it the gifts of tongues and interpretation? I'm also inclined to believe the latter. They have schools for Prophets but there is no school for the gift of tongues and interpretation.

Was this a merit badge they were looking for? Indeed, they didn't know of any merit badges. They didn't even know of the baptism! And this was about twenty years after Paul's conversion!

Again from Paul:

1 Cor. 14:1-5 (NASB-U)
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. [2] [b]For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God[/b]; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. [3] But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. [4] [b]One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself[/b]; but one who prophesies edifies the church. [5] Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

Many against private "tongues speaking" are quick to say that to edify yourself is selfish-self gratifying. Was Paul? He spoke in them more than all; his life was one of establishing as ours should be. And again will not this edifying of the individual, the one who is pursuing LOVE by his experience [b]into[/b] Christ, this baptism into His Body be, as a consequence, edifying to the church?

I'm sorry but there is much too much evidence to the contrary of your and bro. Com's argument. The need in this seems to be discernment that needs to be sought for by the one seeking. Will the lord give a stone when bread is asked for? There will always be the sorcerer type out there who will persuade the weak that the stone is bread. He will be judged in that day along with the willful weak. Kindly read the post just a few back by David Duplesis concerning one's desire for the Baptism. It points up what really needs to be pursued.

In conclusion may I say that salvation can be looked upon contextually as "going steady" and the Baptism as the "engagement ring". It all depends on the understanding of the one seeking and how much we want HIM. Many are called, few chosen -- Why? ------
When you pray for things, you don't get them because you want them for the wrong reason........"James 4:3

Blessings,

:-Drm

Onesimus posted:

So in closing, I would think that we should be about our great commission of preaching the Gospel and loving our God and our neighbor as ourselves, and let the Holy Spirit decide who needs and who gets what gifts. The emphasis needs to be more on Jesus Christ and Him crucified and not entirely on the Holy Spirit. Instead of coveting the gifts of the spirit from God, we often covet the gifts in another, and even to the point of jealousy, or on the other end, esteeming one person with gifts over another. All of this is counterproductive in the kingdom of God. If saints were more busy doing the word instead of talking about it, the church and the world would be a different place today.

Yours in Christ Jesus,

"0"

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Stever's response:

I think everyone on this thread totally agrees with your sentiments above, however this thread was generated by Linda who was concerned about this Baptism--the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes upon the believer that was promised by Christ and given at Pentecost.

It shouldn't take that long to go back to the beginning of this thread and read through, and then post again.

We are all trying to come beside Linda to help her make sense out of this, and to give her direction in not only how to receive this Baptism, but also how to use this power once she has received it.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Paul tells us it is ok, wonderful in fact, to covet spiritual gifts, and especially that we should prophecy. Even though Paul claimed to pray in the Spirit more than anyone, he put more emphasis on prophecy.

Only for the church did he have in mind when stating this. His private prayer and communication with the Father was a different matter as he explains in 1Cor14.4. Where would be the need/necessity to prophecy in that instance?

So in closing, I would think that we should be about our great commission of preaching the Gospel and loving our God and our neighbor as ourselves, and let the Holy Spirit decide who needs and who gets what gifts. The emphasis needs to be more on Jesus Christ and Him crucified and not entirely on the Holy Spirit.

#1. This should never be about the Holy Ghost but our abiding in Christ.

#2. Salvation notwithstanding, the great commission is to make disciples? How does one do that without the "unction to function". That IS the great need not only for the great commandment but the great commission also. No where are we told to go and get people saved. We can't do that. We are told to go and make disciples of them that are saved. If you do this correctly, i.e., live the life of Christ, you will soon find out who is and who isn't, saved. That was the way Jesus did it and the way He said we must do it. That is why He said "don't leave Jerusalem unto you receive the PROMISE [of power] from the Father.

It could be said that the church, in this present day, left too soon.

Blessings,

:-(rm

Onesimus4God wrote:
Thanks Stever,
How do you receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit? By asking the Father and waiting on Him until you get it, by faith in His promise through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Alleluia. It is wonderful and glorious to have your entire inner being completely consumed with His presence.

"0"

Stever replies:

The Disciples had to wait for Pentecost, to receive this gift. However, Paul tells us that we can receive this Baptism by the laying on of hands of other Spirit Filled, Baptised in the Holy Ghost believers.

Do a "search" in the New Testament, and use the word "hands" and see what comes up. It will blow you away.

That is what Paul was concerned with, and really had no interest in water baptism. He said that he only baptised 2 or 3 people with water.

God bless,

Stever

Stever posts:

the definition of "Witness", found in the 1828 edition of Noah Webster's Dictionary of the English language is:

WITNESS, n.

1. Testimony; attestation of a fact or event.

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5.

2. That which furnishes evidence or proof.

Laban said, this heap is a witness between me and thee this day. Genesis 31.

3. A person who knows or sees any thing; one personally present; as, he was witness; he was an eye-witness. 1 Peter 5.

4. One who sees the execution of an instrument, and subscribes it for the purpose of confirming its authenticity b his testimony.

5. One who gives testimony; as, the witnesses in court agreed in all essential facts.

With a witness, effectually; to a great degree; with great force, so as to leave some mark as a testimony behind. He struck with a witness. [Not elegant.]
WITNESS, v.t.

1. To see or know by personal presence. I witnessed the ceremonies in New York, with which the ratification of the constitution was celebrated, in 1788.

2. To attest; to give testimony to; to testify to something.

Behold, how many things they witness against thee. Mark 15.

3. To see the execution of an instrument, and subscribe it for the purpose of establishing its authenticity; as, to witness a bond or a deed.
WITNESS, v.i.

1. To bear testimony.

The men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth. 1 Kings 21.

2. To give evidence.

The shew of their countenance doth witness against them. Isaiah 3.

[Previous page in the dictionary] [Next page in the dictionary]

witness is also found in 91 definitions:

abintestate
adduce
affirm
agree
attainder
attest
attestation
attesting
authority
bear
belief
bribe
petency
competent
condemn
confront
council
cross-examination
cross-examine
deponent
depose
deposing
deposition
detest
disqualify
draw
evasion
evidence
examination
examine
examiner
except
exhibit
faith
fall
false
fidelity
foulmouthed
gracious
holy
impair
improve
incapacitate
incompetency
incompetent
infamous
infamy
instance
interested
interrogate
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God bless,

Stever :-)

Easy Stever, Witness and Martyr are of the same root meaning. With that revelation you might want to reappraise your position considering it is your total being that is to exhibit the character of the Father..

Orm........... ;-)

FWIW ... His Character is learned.

Martyr is a witness who suffers death, for any cause. The cause can be for Christ, or for his Country, or other causes (you name it):

Websters 1828 Dictionary of the American Language:

M`ARTYR, n. [Gr. a witness.] One who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel. Stephen was the first christian martyr.

To be a martyr signifies only to witness the truth of Christ.

1. ONE WHO SUFFERS DEATH IN DEFENSE OF ANY CAUSE. WE SAY, A MAN DIES A MARTYR TO HIS POLITICAL PRINCIPLES OR TO THE CAUSE OF LIBERTY.
M`ARTYR, v.t. To put to death for adhering to what one believes to be the truth; to sacrifice one on account of his faith or profession.

1. To murder; to destroy.
[Previous page in the dictionary] [Next page in the dictionary]

martyr is also found in 6 definitions:

confessor
crypt
martyrdom
martyrize
protomartyr
stake

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God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever wrote:

Martyr is a witness who suffers death, for any cause. The cause can be for Christ, or for his Country, or other causes (you name it)

Ok, I will. Witness-Martyr, as implied in most ALL context in the NT, has to do with dying to self; the dying to our self emotions, overcoming them that the Life Christ within can be revealed. This can only be done achieved by union with Christ and is the prime reason for the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.. His was the [b]work[/b] of the cross while ours must be the [b]way[/b] of the cross. In the sense we die daily His Life will come though to effect our relations with others. Make sense? Read your own post below in this light. I'm sure you will agree.

Read Oswald Chambers some more. He will say the same thing. Do you have his complete works?

Blessings,

Orm ..... :-)

Olmry posted:

"Ok, I will. Witness-Martyr, as implied in most ALL context in the NT, has to do with dying to self; the dying to our self emotions, overcoming them that the Life Christ within can be revealed. This can only be done achieved by union with Christ and is the prime reason for the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.. His was the work of the cross while ours must be the way of the cross. In the sense we die daily His Life will come though to effect our relations with others"

Stever's response:

Of all the people that I know of that have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the requirement of "dying to self" had nothing to do with receiving it. Look at the Church at Corinth, who had received all of the gifts.

No, I don't believe that dying to self is a requirement for this Baptism, because the Bible tells that ALL that we have to do is ask for it from God in prayer to be able to receive it. It is a GIFT, and nothing we have to WORK for to receive.

However, I think that dying to self is a good thing for all mature Christians to seek.

God bless,

Stever :-)

".............Before the disciples were endued with power from on high, they still went out and preached that men should repent.

Mark 6:12 "And they went out, and preached that men should repent.""

As everyone knows this was a special ordination before the cross. This was done before the new birth could be experienced never mind the baptism. You might want to study to find out why Jesus did this.

So while I do think we go out too quick, I don't think this is a blanket to discount Christians from witnessing who are not filled with the Holy Ghost, but rather that all Christians who are witnessing should be praying to be filled with the Holy Ghost.

So I guess you believe you can do it without Him? You have the discernment, the Spirit without the Spirit?
?Hmmm?

Blessings,

Orm

Stever's response:

Of all the people that I know of that have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the requirement of "dying to self" had nothing to do with receiving it. Look at the Church at Corinth, who had received all of the gifts.

And Paul brought correction into that church, right?

No, I don't believe that dying to self is a requirement for this Baptism, because the Bible tells that ALL that we have to do is ask for it from God in prayer to be able to receive it. It is a GIFT, and nothing we have to WORK for to receive.

Wasn't it you who said it came by the laying on of hands? I'm confused.

However, I think that dying to self is a good thing for all mature Christians to seek.

#1. I never said it was a [b]requirement[/b] for receiving the baptism. Try reading my remarks again for the first time.

#2. Dying to self is NOT an elective. It is the way of the cross. If one wants to be mature one learns early on that dying to self is a prerequiste.

Blessings,

Orm

Olmry posted:

"#2. Dying to self is NOT an elective. It is the way of the cross. If one wants to be mature one learns early on that dying to self is a prerequiste."
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Stever's response:

I think all of us will be surprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.

I think there will be many who are in heaven who have no knowledge of dying to self. It is not a requirement for being saved, to be clear, but it is important to die to self for a mature walk-- some make it early on, some later, and some Christians never make it.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Ormly wrote:

Stever's response:

Of all the people that I know of that have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the requirement of "dying to self" had nothing to do with receiving it. Look at the Church at Corinth, who had received all of the gifts.

And Paul brought correction into that church, right?

No, I don't believe that dying to self is a requirement for this Baptism, because the Bible tells that ALL that we have to do is ask for it from God in prayer to be able to receive it. It is a GIFT, and nothing we have to WORK for to receive.

Wasn't it you who said it came by the laying on of hands? I'm confused.

[Snipped]
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Stever's response:

Paul was more concerned about the Baptism of the Holy Ghost than he was water baptism. He states that he only baptized 2 or 3 with water.

What does God's Word say about how Paul brought Christian believers into this Baptism of the Holy Ghost, that provides power to the beleiver?
Why is the gift of the Holy Spirit missing in our Church today? We have all been water baptized, but where is the power that Christ promised the believer?

John tells us that he baptized with water, but that He (Christ) would baptize believers with the Holy Ghost and Fire. This Baptism would provide them with the power to be a witness for Him, and to do the work of the Church. This is the missing element in todays Church, to be sure. After Pentecost the Bible teaches that in most instances the filling of the Holy Spirit does not happen at the time of water baptism. When does it happen?

The Bible tells us that it happens most often by the LAYING ON OF HANDS OF OTHER SPIRIT FILLED BELIEVERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. Some examples of this are as follows:

Acts 6: 5. And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:6. Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, THEY LAID THEIR HANDS ON THEM.
7. And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Acts 8: 14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17. THEN LAID THEY THEIR HANDS ON THEM, AND THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST.

Acts 8: 18. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19.\tSAYING, GIVE ME ALSO THIS POWER, THAT ON WHOMSOEVER I LAY HANDS, HE MAY RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.

Acts 9: 17. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; AND PUTTING HIS HANDS ON HIM SAID, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, AND BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST.
18.\tAND IMMEDIATELY THERE FELL FROM HIS EYES AS IT HAD BEEN SCALES: and he received sight forthwith...”

Acts 13: 2. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3. And when they had fasted and prayed, AND LAID THEIR HANDS ON THEM, they sent them away.
4. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus."

Acts 19:" 5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6. And WHEN PAUL HAD LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7. And all the men were about twelve."

Acts 28:" 8. And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, AND LAID HIS HANDS ON HIM, and HEALED HIM.

1 Timothy 4:" 13. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the LAYING ON OF THE HANDS OF THE PRESBYTERY."

1 Timothy 5:" 22. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure."

2 Timothy 1: 6. Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, WHICH IS IN THEE BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS.
7. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Hebrews 6:" 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of LAYING ON OF HANDS, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permit."

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I pray that this is helpful for all those interested in this Baptism of Fire. Have you received this Baptism?

"Ye have not because you ask not!"

God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever's response:

I think all of us will be surprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.

I think there will be many who are in heaven who have no knowledge of dying to self. It is not a requirement for being saved, to be clear, but it is important to die to self for a mature walk-- some make it early on, some later, and some Christians never make it.

But is a requirement for joint-heirship with Jesus Christ. Think otherwise and that the "casual" Christian will be also and your are in deception.

Blessings,

Orm

Yes, one can. Judas preached the gospel and fooled all the other disciples. So one can do anything that they want without Him.

He fooled no one. Why do we persist on ignoring the fact Jesus gave a special ONETIME commandment? It wasn't repeated and it was for a reason, to reveal the power of Jesus' name. Certainly this is not the reason to believe that the Holy Ghost descended before Pentecost and gifted men. And wouldn't you think it strange that one "gifted" with such power and evidence of God would betray His Son?
Question: Do we really know that Judas actually performed miracles as directed by Jesus? The scriptures just allude to "they", the disciples in general. Wouldn't unbelief have hindered him? I don't know what he did and this is only speculation on my part. But it is based upon what we do know of him and how such a disposition as his would hinder the work of the Holy Ghost today. But on the other hand I believe we have a lot of "Judas'" out there on the stage working the miracles of God who will be judged as ones who worked with/in iniquity. Luke 13:27 (KJV)
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. [Lawlessness] Why will that be except they haven't died to their self-natures that press to be as God. That is the reason for the way of cross and the needed power of the Holy Ghost to be with us, in us and upon us. It is that task of "overcoming" by the "Blood of the Lamb" be performed in us without dissimilation. No nihilism or asceticism here. Love for God is required and alone, is accepted.

Need more scripture for this?

----------------------------------

It seems many here want to "learn" from these discussions only to disprarge given contextual facts so that their pet doctrines can be preserved.

Blessings,

:-orm

I don't think there are any hard dogmatic rules here. Various antedotal stories don't invalidate or substantiate any doctrines. Overall, regardless of our positions, I think it's prudent to accept that certain manifestations are not indisputable proof of the Holy Spirit. Even tongues themselves, in some form, are "practiced" by many other religions.

Please name them,I'm sure we all would like to know..

Orm

I suppose that is the reason it's worth remembering that not all "power and evidence" should be attributed to the gift of Holy Spirit. This is the risk we take when we rely on manifestations of power as faithful witnesses.

This should be remembered though perhaps for different reasons you have in mind.

The devil can afflict. We know that from Job's circumstances. Would it be unreasonable to believe that when words, prayers and commands all in the name of Jesus mind you, be recited, Satan would retract the affliction and God permit it for the destruction of the individuals involved?

Consider it.

Orm

I didn't taken offense, I've heard all the arguments and pretty much know what generates them, but someone else might have. Thanks for your explanation.

But here you ask:

(Ever wonder why Paul spends so much time on the subject matter with the Corinthians? I think it's because that Greek city was exposed to all sorts of carnal and pagan counterfiets of supernaturalism and superstition.)

No I haven't. I believe the record, as written, is quite clear. Very simply put, they were not using their gift properly. I never attempted to read anything more into that.

Side note:

I personally know of some deaf and dumb who have spoken as evidence of the baptism and when it was over they went back to hand signals. True story.

:-)rm

linda7 wrote:

Stever's resonse:

I think all of us will be suprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.

Hope you don't mind me poking my nose in but the devil believes this about Jesus also. That word believe ought to be examined.

In His Love
Linda

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Stever responds:

I wonder what the thief on the cross would have to say about your opinion?

How about the 85 year old man on his deathbed, who repents of his sin, and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, and dies 1 second later.

What would he have to say to you?

We must all be careful about our opinions, and base them on Scripture, and not just our own understanding. We are still in this flesh and blood that we inherited from Adam, that is deceitfully wicked.

God bless,

Stever :-)

P.S. Christ is the only one that sees the heart. We still see through the glass darkly, but he sees through everything:

[Hebrews 4:12-16]
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Logic wrote:

it is AN evidence, but not the evidence.

Since Holy Spirit baptism is an IMMEDIATE happening, not unlike water baptism where one gets all wet, what other IMMEDIATE evidence could there be except something such as tongues, in your estimation? Certainly it was the only evidence given in Acts 2; 10 and 19.

Orm.. :-)

Ormly wrote:

Stever's response:

I think all of us will be surprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.

I think there will be many who are in heaven who have no knowledge of dying to self. It is not a requirement for being saved, to be clear, but it is important to die to self for a mature walk-- some make it early on, some later, and some Christians never make it.

xxxxxxx
Ormly responded:
But is a requirement for joint-heirship with Jesus Christ. Think otherwise and that the "casual" Christian will be also and your are in deception.
Blessings,

Orm

Stever responds:

Linda made a similar statement, and my answer is really the same:

What about the thief on the cross, what would he have to say about your opinion.?

What about the 85 year old man, that is on his deathbed, repents of his sin, and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, and dies 1 second later?

As human beings, we do not see clearly. Unless our opinions are supported by Scripture, it is best not to share them with others. Christ is the only one that sees the heart, and He is the judge, not you and not me.

Brother Ormly, your beliefs, as shown above and elsewhere on this thread in regards to this issue would preclude these two men of entry into heaven.

What did Christ say about the matter? "Today, you shall be with me in paradise!" [Luke 23:43]

God bless,

Stever :-)

What about the thief on the cross, what would he have to say about your opinion.?

Which part?

What about the 85 year old man, that is on his deathbed, repents of his sin, and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, and dies 1 second later?

He didn't have time repent but only ask to be forgiven.

As human beings, we do not see clearly. Unless our opinions are supported by Scripture, it is best not to share them with others. Christ is the only one that sees the heart, and He is the judge, not you and not me.

Brother Ormly, your beliefs, as shown above and elsewhere on this thread in regards to this issue would preclude these two men of entry into heaven.

What did Christ say about the matter? "Today, you shall be with me in paradise!" [Luke 23:43]

You are asking me to pass judgment. Entry into heaven is a heart issue judged by Christ Himself.
Joint-heir-ship, while also being a judgment issue by Him is, nevertheless, a different one..

There are presently in heaven many who were never born again in their earthly life. Can you agree with that? If you can, where does that take in your thinking?

Blessings,

Orm
PS. Words do mean something

Stever posts:

All believers are “joint heirs” with Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ, the “Seed of the Woman” [Genesis 3:14-15) is what saves us, and is what makes us joint heirs at the same time.

Christ is the "heir of all things" (Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:15). Believers are heirs of the "promise," "of righteousness," "of the kingdom," "of the world," "of God," "joint heirs" with Christ (Gal 3:29; Heb. 6:17; 11:7; James 2:5; Rom. 4:13; 8:17).

[Hebrews 1:2]
2.\tHath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

[Col 1:15]
15.\tWho is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Galatians 3:29
29.\tAnd if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 6:17
17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Hebrews 11:7
7.By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

James 2:5
5.Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Romans 4:13
13.For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 8:17
16.And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Saving faith is so called because it has eternal life inseparably connected with it. It cannot be better defined than in the words of the Assembly's Shorter Catechism: "Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation, as he is offered to us in the gospel." The object of saving faith is the whole revealed Word of God. Faith accepts and believes it as the very truth most sure. But the special act of faith which unites to Christ has as its object the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 7:38; Acts 16:31). This is the specific act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom. 3:22, 25; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; John 3:16-36; Acts 10:43; 16:31). In this act of faith the believer appropriates and rests on Christ alone as Mediator in all his offices.

All believers are joint heirs. Those before the cross, who BELIEVED God in what happened in the Garden, that the seed of the woman would come and bruise Satans head, and in the process have His own heel bruised, and redeem fallen man to Himself were saved. Adam was still living and was approximately 685 years old when Methusaleh was born. They lived in the same area, and tilled the same earth. After Methusalh was born Adam lived another 245 years before he died. At that time, Methusaleh was 245 years old and lived another 725 years before dying (in the same year as the flood- before the flood). Adam lived a total 930 years and during that time he was living, passing the story (the seed of the woman) on to whoever would believe. The revelation of who God is, and His plan for salvation was a continuing revelation, first through Adam, then Abel, and Seth and down to Noah. Shem carried it forward on the other side of the flood, and then Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the rest. All of these men had faith, faith in God, and faith (belief) in the Messiah to come. Others, who heard the story, and did not believe it had faith in man. Men like Cain before the flood, and Canaan, the son of Ham after the flood. These were godless men, that wanted nothing to do with God, nor in His promise. All of the believers before the cross, who were housed in Abrahams bosom, were taken captive to heaven by Christ, after the resurrection. [Ephesians 4:8-10]. The same endless story continues today---those that believe God, and trust in him, and those that will not.

Those that are saved after the cross have faith (belief) in Jesus Christ, and in his birth, death, and resurrection from the dead, and have accepted Him as Lord.

All of these believers will be "joint heirs" with Jesus Christ. There is no division between believers- those of the Old Testament, before the Cross, and those of the New Testament, after the Cross.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Genesis 3:14-15
14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed [WOMEN DO NOT HAVE SEED, MEN HAVE SEED); it (HER SEED, JESUS CHRIST, THE MESSIAH) shall bruise thy head [SATAN'S], and thou shalt bruise his [CHRIST'S] heel [THE CRUCIFIXION IS THE ONLY FORM OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT THAT BRUISES THE HEAL. THE PERSON ON THE CROSS IS SUFFOCATING, AND HAS TO CONTINUALLY PUSH UP FROM THE HEAL THAT IS NAILED CLOSEST TO THE CROSS, IN ORDER TO CONTINUE GASPING FOR AIR TO TRY AND BREATH].

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Olmry posted:

[snipped]

You are asking me to pass judgment. Entry into heaven is a heart issue judged by Christ Himself.
Joint-heir-ship, while also being a judgment issue by Him is, nevertheless, a different one..

There are presently in heaven many who were never born again in their earthly life. Can you agree with that? If you can, where does that take in your thinking?

Blessings,

Orm
PS. Words do mean something

Well my brother Stever, as someone awhile back suggested we do is, take another look at the word "believer". I'm telling you here and now that all "believers", the confessors of His name as the one who has saved them, will NOT be joint-heirs with Christ. Why? Because there is a price to pay that Jesus and Paul speak of that you are completely ignoring and most others who want Jesus, but on their own terms, without intimacy, are also. It is a painful way. It is the way of the cross. Away that relies heavily upon the power of the Holy Ghost for victory, making the Baptism of the Holy Ghost vitally important. Everyone should desire it because everyone should desire victory and helps that make victory possible. How does one receive the genuine article? ---- How bad you want relationship with the Father because that's what it is all about--relationship?

Psalm 34:8 (KJV)
[b]"O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him."[/b]

Blessings,

Orm

Stever responds to Ormly:

I think we have all heard your position on this, now many times.

Please, support your position with proof text from Scripture.

God bless,

Stever :-)

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wrote:
Well my brother Stever, as someone awhile back suggested we do is, take another look at the word "believer". I'm telling you here and now that all "believers", the confessors of His name as the one who has saved them, will NOT be joint-heirs with Christ. Why? Because there is a price to pay that Jesus and Paul speak of that you are completely ignoring and most others who want Jesus, but on their own terms, without intimacy, are also. It is a painful way. It is the way of the cross. Away that relies heavily upon the power of the Holy Ghost for victory, making the Baptism of the Holy Ghost vitally important. Everyone should desire it because everyone should desire victory and helps that make victory possible. How does one receive the genuine article? ---- How bad you want relationship with the Father because that's what it is all about--relationship?

Psalm 34:8 (KJV)
[b]"O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him."[/b]

Blessings,

Orm

I have Wigglesworth' teaching and much he can't explain scripturally or otherwise. God will do what He will do. If Wigglesworth wants to place his understanding/persceptions in there well, what can I say. Let God be true and every man a liar, right? It doesn't releave us of our responsibility to seek God. And it doesn't negate the teaching of Paul and the evidence given that we should expect to be the norm. Wigglesworth attested to this truth.

Orm

That contradicts scripture and is heresy.
Proove such claims with Chapter & verse when making them.

That's easy but first let me ask the question: who could be born again before the cross? ---Who were they held captive in Abrahams bosom, paradise, that Jesus set free ---Hmm?

Seems some here need a good Bible 101 course.

Orm

It was not the only evidence given in those chapters.
The danger is to look over the greater evidences and see what you want to see.
I do agree that toungues was a preasent evidance, but I keep it as Paul has it, the least of the gifts.

But we are not speaking of a gift but evidence. The baptism, in this context is the gift; the promise of the Father with the evidence of tongues. That is NOT to be confusd with the "gift of tongues" Paul speaks of purposed for the edification of the church when accompanied by interpretation..

Orm

Stever responds to Ormly:

I think we have all heard your position on this, now many times.

Please, support your position with proof text from Scripture.

God bless,

Stever

Well Stever, may ask what you think this verse means: Hebrews 2:3 (NASB-U)
"how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard"

What does that say to you? Do you see any distinctions being made by the writer of Hebrews, in this remark? Who do you believe the distinctions to be between?

Orm

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Very true. But He NOT speaking of salvation but the Kingdom of God. Different issues.

being born again is an old testement concept because Jesus told Nicodemus this and he was old testement.

John 3:10 Jesus replied: How can you be a teacher of Israel and not know these things?

Seems some here need a good Bible 101 course.

OT concept?? I'm afraid you will have to show that to me. Not only that but Jesus wasn't referring to Nic's lack of knowledge about that part of what He was speaking but rather the issues dealing the Spirit as mentioned in the OT.

I believe there is a clear distinction between salvation by the Blood of Christ and being Born again of His Spirit.

Orm

Linda, How can the "coming upon" be an "infilling"? I don't get it except to be full of the Holy Ghost connotes intimacy with the Father. The "coming upon" is to lead one to it.

:-)rm

Ormly wrote:
{quote]John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Very true. But He NOT speaking of salvation but the Kingdom of God. Different issues.

I believe there is a clear distinction between salvation by the Blood of Christ and being Born again of His Spirit.

Orm
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Stever responds:

[b][color=0066FF]Then Prove it by Biblical proof texts. Otherwise you position is nothing more than an OPINION and means nothing![/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever :-)

Olmry, please respond by Biblical Proof texts on your positions expressed below. Mere words are not acceptable, unless supported by proof.

You mention a good Bible 101 class- it is your turn to give it.

God bless,

Stever :-)

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Olmry posted on 6/25/06:

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Well my brother Stever, as someone awhile back suggested we do is, take another look at the word "believer". I'm telling you here and now that all "believers", the confessors of His name as the one who has saved them, will NOT be joint-heirs with Christ. Why? Because there is a price to pay that Jesus and Paul speak of that you are completely ignoring and most others who want Jesus, but on their own terms, without intimacy, are also. It is a painful way. It is the way of the cross. Away that relies heavily upon the power of the Holy Ghost for victory, making the Baptism of the Holy Ghost vitally important. Everyone should desire it because everyone should desire victory and helps that make victory possible. How does one receive the genuine article? ---- How bad you want relationship with the Father because that's what it is all about--relationship?

Psalm 34:8 (KJV)
"O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him."

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Posted on 5/25/06
There are presently in heaven many who were never born again in their earthly life. Can you agree with that? If you can, where does that take in your thinking?

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Posted on 5/25/06
Ormly responded:
But is a requirement for joint-heirship with Jesus Christ. Think otherwise and that the "casual" Christian will be also and your are in deception.
Blessings,

Orm

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Posted on 5/26/06
That contradicts scripture and is heresy.
Proove such claims with Chapter & verse when making them.

That's easy but first let me ask the question: who could be born again before the cross? ---Who were they held captive in Abrahams bosom, paradise, that Jesus set free ---Hmm?

Seems some here need a good Bible 101 course.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Jesus said he didn't come to save the righteous but sinners. There was 4000 years of people of whom many were righteous, justified by their faith in God and when Jesus died on the cross He shed His precious blood that finally reconciled them with the Father. They were set free from their captivity, held there by Adam's sin, that their own righteousness could not free them of.
Romans 5:1 (NASB-U)
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

That's not being born again. That's being saved from sins penalty --- death.

Being born again is for our lifes journey to become a begotten son of God. A Child is born and a son is given. Jesus was the first of the first born that we can witness as an example of what Father purposed for us before the foundation of the world, i.e., joint-heirship with Jesus.

That is the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Wrong teaching brings wrong conclusions in this matter. If you believe me to be wrong show me what I violate.

Orm

Olmry, please respond by Biblical Proof texts on your positions expressed below. Mere words are not acceptable, unless supported by proof.

You mention a good Bible 101 class- it is your turn to give it.

Should I begin in Genesis and work my way through?
Would you be persuaded if I gave you all the "proofs" you require?

Better yet, why don't you ask yourself some questions you have to have because of the gaping holes in your understanding.. I had them most of my life. I have very few left after I learned the Fathers perspective.

God is good and we must be open for adjustment to understand things from His perspective. What is His purpose for my/your life from the beginning; when He first thought of bringing me/you into existance?

Begin to read your Bible from that perspective, you will find it a new book.

Orm

Spiritual birth is the beginning of our spiritual walk. Thus it is referred to as a birth. We then grow as we feed on the sincere milk of the Word, and then we progress to eating meat and being teachers.

In capsule form you are correct but it needs to be expanded that the sustaining vision be formed.
For instance: You will know them that begin their spiritual walk. They will have problems and will ask questions. Why? Because the spiritual walk begins when it is recognized that death to self is the objective leading to intimacy with the Father, all kinds obstacles will rise up to cause doubt. Where are the teachers who can answer these questions from their own experience in "dying to self"?

Bare grain to be planted = the born again --- clean, pure, made innocent by the Blood of the Lamb, buried in the Kingdom to soak in the early and the latter Rain and then quickened by the Holy Ghost to new life that God can be pleased with and others can be blessed by. Without the pleasing to God blessing to others will be as a tare, empty of life. Jesus gives us this example from His earthly life.

The obedience from us (as grain) must stem from our love to the Father; a desire to be a part of whatever He is doing.

Keep in mind that Jesus (the man) did not need to transform His natural into the Spiritual. He had to protect His innocence (sinlessness). Now the same power given Him to protect is the same power given us, by Him, to overcome our sinful natures (sinfulness). Ergo, the need to “abide” as He did is quite the necessary thing.
He, willingly, laid down His life and became the pattern by which we must needs, lay down ours. It was from love [b]to[/b] the Father He functioned as a man. Can we function from less desire if we abide in Him? Can we say we abide in Christ and be indifferent to the command to Love the Father? Can we overcome aside from LOVE’S compelling? Can we overcome without a revelation of Christ that will produce the same vision that was His, that sustained Him to the cross where He proclaimed: "It is Finished"?

Blesings,

Orm

Thank you, Linda. :-)

Ormly posts:

Jesus said he didn't come to save the RIGHTEOUS BUT SINNERS. There was 4000 years of people of whom many were righteous, justified by their faith in God and when Jesus died on the cross He shed His precious blood that finally reconciled them with the Father. They were set free from their captivity, held there by Adam's sin, that their own righteousness could not free them of.
Romans 5:1 (NASB-U)
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

That's not being born again. That's being saved from sins penalty --- death.

Being born again is for our lifes journey to become a begotten son of God. A Child is born and a son is given. Jesus was the first of the first born that we can witness as an example of what Father purposed for us before the foundation of the world, i.e., joint-heirship with Jesus.

That is the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Wrong teaching brings wrong conclusions in this matter. If you believe me to be wrong show me what I violate.

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[b][color=0033FF]Stever responds to the above WRONG (FALSE) TEACHING of Ormly:[/color][/b]

Matthew 19:10-13
10. And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12. But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

What Christ is saying here, contrary to your post, is that the Pharisees and the Saducees and the Jewish leaders were “self righteous” and thought themselves saved by following the law and BY THEIR OWN WORKS. They didn’t need a Messiah, they didn’t need God, they believed that they were saved by their own actions of following the law. Christ exposed them on the sermon on the Mount. Their thoughts made them guilty, not only their action

Contrast that type of “righteousness”, which is nothing more than being self righteous, with that of a person who knows in his heart that he is a sinner and calls out to God. A person that knows that now matter how many lambs, goats, or bullocks that he sacrifices for his sin, that he is still a sinner. He knows in his heart that his sin in only COVERED by the Blood, but still feels in his heart that he is a sinner.

To clarify this issue for us, in Matthew 5:20 Christ tells us that unless our righteousness EXCEEDN the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, THEY WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN:

Matthew 5:20
20.\tFor I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[u][b][color=00CC33]Olmry, what you are “teaching” here is false teaching.[/color][/b][/u]
The Bible tells us that we have the Heroes of Faith, not the heroes of works, that look down upon us from the stands, urging us on towards the finish line. Men like David, and Abraham, and Noah. Men that had the most personal of all walks with the God of the Universe. Men who knew they were sinners, and not righteous. Men who knew there was only one righteous- God. [u][b][color=0033FF]ALL OF THESE WERE MEN OF FAITH, THE SAME KIND OF MEN THAT WE ARE CALLED TO BE![/color][/b][/u]

The names on this list: Abel, Encoh, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sara. Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, David, Samuel, and the Prophets, all of who:
“33. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. 34. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36.\tAnd others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38. (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Hebrews 12 sums it up, and compares these saints with us, and their walk with our walk. [u][b][color=0033FF]THERE IS NO DIVISION BETWEEN US![/color][/b][/u]

“1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

God bless,

Stever

P.S. Gods Word tells us that NO MAN/WOMAN (ONE) IS RIGHTEOUS, NOT NOT EVEN ONE:

7. For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8. And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Read it and weep:

Matthew 9:13 (KJV)
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 2:17 (KJV)
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 5:32 (KJV)
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Righteous as He uses the word is NOT self-righteousness, Stever.

I assume you know who Anna and Simeon were, you know, in the NT, the gospels? Tell me do you believe they were righteous folk? How about Zacharis and Elizabeth, Mary, the Disciples? Do you believe they were self-righteous folk or good righteous folk obedient to God as best they knew how to be? Your reply doesn't mention folk like that. How come?

I don't believe you read my post very well. Perhaps another go at it would help.

Orm

Logic,

You can't read very well either. Perhaps there is something in the water? Words do mean something. What part of my post didn't you understand? Perhaps re-reading it, a word at a time for understanding, would prove helpful.

The second part of your reply is standard stock "Tulip" speak that contradicts itself upon investigation.. Ergo, not Biblical because it is twisted, wretched from its moorings scripture, that it accomodate Calvin's theme.

:-xrm

Logic,

Not hardly. You just resent what I have to say. It's revealing. The Pharisees didn't like what Jesus said about their twist on things either.

He didn't apologize for that, must I?

Orm

Stever responds to the false understanding AND FALSE TEACHING of God's Word offered by Ormly:

Our righteousness is as filthy rags to God, because He (GOD) is the only one that is RIGHTEOUS.

THERE IS NONE, RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE.

5. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6. God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7. For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8. And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10. AS IT IS WRITTEN, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE:
11. THERE IS NONE THAT UNDERSTANDETH, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD.

Our righteousness is as filthy rags to God, because He (GOD) is the only one that is RIGHTEOUS.

4. For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for HIM THAT WAITETH FOR HIM (GOD).
5. Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6. [b][color=0033FF]BUT WE ARE ALL AS AN UNCLEAN THING, AND ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS[/color][/b];and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7. And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8. But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9. Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

[u][b][color=00CC00]In conclusion, you Ormly are in a delusion . NO MAN IS RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE. ALL OF THE REFERENCES IN GOD’S WORD, THE BIBLE, TO MEN THAT ARE RIGHTEOUS REFER TO MEN WHO ONLY THINK THAT THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS! GOD'S WORD TELLS US NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS. WHY DO THEY FEEL RIGHTEOUS? BECAUSE THEY FEEL IN THEIR MINDS THAT THEY DO NOT NEED GOD AND FEEL THAT THEY HAVE KEPT THE LAW AND HAVE EARNED THEIR WAY TO HEAVEN.[/color][/b][/u]

[u][b][color=0033FF]ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS, ARE NOT. ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS ARE ON THEIR WAY TO HELL!

Omlry, could you be on your way to hell as well? What does the Bible tell us about FALSE TEACHERS?[/color][/b][/u]

[u][b][color=0033FF]2 PETER 2:1-4 TELLS US OF THE DESTINATION OF FALSE TEACHERS:[/color][/b][/u]

1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

God bless,

Stever :-)
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Omlry posted:
Read it and weep:

Matthew 9:13 (KJV)
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 2:17 (KJV)
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 5:32 (KJV)
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Righteous as He uses the word is NOT self-righteousness, Stever.

I assume you know who Anna and Simeon were, you know, in the NT, the gospels? Tell me do you believe they were righteous folk? How about Zacharis and Elizabeth, Mary, the Disciples? Do you believe they were self-righteous folk or good righteous folk obedient to God as best they knew how to be? Your reply doesn't mention folk like that. How come?

I don't believe you read my post very well. Perhaps another go at it would help.

Ormry posted:
Read it and weep:

Matthew 9:13 (KJV)
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 2:17 (KJV)
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 5:32 (KJV)
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Righteous as He uses the word is NOT self-righteousness, Stever.

I assume you know who Anna and Simeon were, you know, in the NT, the gospels? Tell me do you believe they were righteous folk? How about Zacharis and Elizabeth, Mary, the Disciples? Do you believe they were self-righteous folk or good righteous folk obedient to God as best they knew how to be? Your reply doesn't mention folk like that. How come?

I don't believe you read my post very well. Perhaps another go at it would help.

Orm

More "Tulip" growing by Stever:

In conclusion, you Ormly are in a delusion . NO MAN IS RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE. ALL OF THE REFERENCES IN GOD’S WORD, THE BIBLE, TO MEN THAT ARE RIGHTEOUS REFER TO MEN WHO ONLY THINK THAT THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS! GOD'S WORD TELLS US NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS. WHY DO THEY FEEL RIGHTEOUS? BECAUSE THEY FEEL IN THEIR MINDS THAT THEY DO NOT NEED GOD AND FEEL THAT THEY HAVE KEPT THE LAW AND HAVE EARNED THEIR WAY TO HEAVEN.

You haven't answered my simple question regarding Anna and Simeon, et al. Were they as you posit in your above "ripped out of context", scripture?

Orm

Logic wrote:
I love the truth!

I will be persuaded if you tell me truth

I have and you don't believe it. It may not traditional, but it is Biblical. Hence I say again: Washed by the Blood and being born again two different things. The OT greatly speaks of this by the animal blood sacrifices no longer needed because of the more precious Blood of Jesus, shed once and for all. But that is NOT the born again experience.

John 3:10 (NASB)
Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher ......., and do not understand these things?

and maybe if you speak with grace, [b]seasoned[/b] with salt.

When haven't I?

Ormly wrote:
You haven't answered my simple question regarding Anna and Simeon, et al. Were they as you posit in your above "ripped out of context", scripture?

Orm

Stever responds again to Omlry:

I have already answered this at least once on this thread:

Those that trust in God are covered by the blood and God’s righteousness is imputed to them. Those before the Cross trusted God, and believed (had faith-in) the Messiah to come. Those after the cross who trust God, and believe (have faith in) the Messiah that came are saved. THOSE BEFORE THE CROSS ARE SAVED BY THE BELIEF IN GOD, THEIR FAITH IS WHAT SAVES THEM. THE SACRIFICES THAT THEY CONTINOUSLY MADE ONLY COVERED THEIR SIN. THOSE OF US THAT LIVE AFTER THE CROSS ARE SAVED BY OUR BELIEF IN GOD, OUR FATH IN GOD IS WHAT SAVES US, AND CHRIST SHED BLOOD ON THE CROSS (THE MESSAIH) IS WHAT RELEASES US FROM SIN- BOTH THOSE BEFORE AND AFTER THE CROSS.

Ephesians 1 tells us the fate, since the foundation of the world, of those who have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, the seed of the woman (found in Genesis 3 if you have a King James Bible.. If you have the NIV or any of the “newer” versions, you won’t find the 1st Prophecy given by God in the Old Testament):

1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Genesis 3:13-15 (KJV) tells us of the ultimate fate of mankind for those that trust in, those that believe in God:

13. And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. AND I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN THEE AND THE WOMAN, AND BETWEEN THY SEED AND HER SEED; IT SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, AND THOU SHALT BRUISE HIS HEEL.

This prophecy speaks of the:
1.\tVirgin Birth. Women do not have seed, men have seed.
2.\tThe crucifixion, where the heel is bruised
3.\tThe restoration of man back to God, when Christ bruises Satans head. The poison of the serpent is in his head.

God bless,

Stever :-)

P.S. Romans 1:17 tells us about the power of FAITH in God. What does it do? It keeps us in God’s hand, and makes us acceptable to him:

“17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

That's not an answer! Were they righteous or self-righteous??!

Stever respons to Ormly:

All of us THAT BELIEVE IN HIM are imputed to be rightous by God because we believe in HIM, we call on HIM, we trust in HIM.

No man is righteous on his own terms. God has already told us NO MAN IS RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE.

Can you NOT understand any of this? Either you are so indoctrinated with false teaching that you cannot understand this OR YOU ARE A FALSE TEACHER AND YOU DO NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND IT.

God bless,

Stever :-)

P.S.
God judges the heart of all people. He is the one that makes the decision. That decision has nothing to do with our own works, and eveything to do with His works! God makes that decision, not you or me. If these two BELIEVED GOD, CALLED OUT TO GOD, TRUSTED GOD, AND NOT MAN, AND HAD FAITH IN CHRIST AND THE WORK THAT HE PERFORMED ON THE CROSS AND AT THE RESURRECTION, THEN THEY (WHO LIVED AFTER THE CROSS) ARE RIGHTEOUS IN GOD'S EYES. GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS IS IMPUTED TO THEM BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEF IN HIM!

COMPRENDE?

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Ormly wrote:
That's not an answer! Were they righteous or self-righteous??!

You still haven't answered the question. Is there something about it you don't understand?

You have answered it yourself, Ormly. You are indeed a false teacher that I pray Christ has mercy on your soul.

Where is the other part of your tag team--Linda? She usually "supports" whatever you post on this thread. Where is she??

God bless,

Stever

Stever wrote:
You have answered it yourself, Ormly. You are indeed a false teacher that I pray Christ has mercy on your soul.

Never mind my soul just answer the question I asked you refuse to answer. Were Anna, Simeon et al, righteous people in the sight of God? You seem to believe and wish everyone to believe that there were no righteous people God had regard for. That's blatantly false. There were good righteous folk, Jesus said there was. You want to argue with Him? This is not rocket science, Stever. Why did God choose Mary?

BTW Do you even know who these two were?

Orm

Ormly posted:

"Never mind my soul just answer the question I asked you refuse to answer. Were Anna, Simeon et al, righteous people in the sight of God? You seem to believe and wish everyone to believe that there were no righteous people God had regard for. That's blatantly false. There were good righteous folk, Jesus said there was.

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Stever responds:

You continually take things out of context. Prove your assertion that anyone is righteous before God.

Prove it, no more words or demands. Prove you position WITH SCRIPTURE. The one proof text that you provided mentioned the "righteousness of the Scribes and Pharasees.

Matthew 5:20 tells us about their righteousness:
20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

THE ANSWER--THEY ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS. THEY JUST THINK THEY ARE!

You cannot prove it, and that is why you persist with this thread. You indeed are a false teacher.

This is the definition of "righteous" in the Bible. WHO IN THE BIBLE MEETS THESE STANDARDS ON THEIR OWN MERITS--ANSWER--ONLY THOSE THAT TRUST GOD AND BELIEVE IN, HAVE FAITH IN--HIS MESSIAH, JESUS CHRIST:

Topics: Right'eousness

Text: See JUSTIFICATION.
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Topics: Justifica'tion

Text: a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified.

It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom. 5:1-10). It proceeds on the imputing or crediting to the believer by God himself of the perfect righteousness, active and passive, of his Representative and Surety, Jesus Christ (Rom. 10:3-9).

Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ's righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8). The sole condition on which this righteousness is imputed or credited to the believer is faith in or on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith is called a "condition," not because it possesses any merit, but only because it is the instrument, the only instrument by which the soul appropriates or apprehends Christ and his righteousness (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 26; 4:20, 22; Phil. 3: 8-11; Gal. 2:16).

The act of faith which thus secures our justification secures also at the same time our sanctification (q.v.); and thus the doctrine of justification by faith does not lead to licentiousness (Rom. 6:2-7). Good works, while not the ground, are the certain consequence of justification (6:14; 7:6). (See GALATIANS, EPISTLE TO.)

To Ormly :

This charade is over as far as I am concerned. Whatever cult you belong to is of no interest to me. The doctrine that you have tried to present here is identical to that offered by Satan in the Garden of Eden- a little bit of the truth, laced with error, laced with poison.

If you notice, only two besides yourself (I consider you and Linda to be one and the same) that are posting to this thread is me and Logic.

When I look up your profile on sermonindex I find a ghost. No name, no personal email address, no testimony, nothing.

I hope you and “Linda” have fun posting to each other.

God bless,

Stever :-)

You may choose not to review these scriptures. I expect that. But let it be clear from me that you wilfully misrepresented what I have posted to imply something I'm NOT saying. But you asked for scriptures. I offer but a few here:

Hosea 14:9 (NASB)
Whoever is wise, let him understand these things; Whoever is discerning, let him know them.
For the ways of the Lord are right, And the righteous will walk in them, But transgressors will stumble in them.

Habakkuk 2:4 (NASB)
"Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.

Malachi 3:18 (NASB)
So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.

Matthew 5:45 (NASB)
in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 9:13 (NASB)
"But go and learn what this means, 'I desire COMPASSION, and not sacrifice,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Matthew 10:41 (NASB)
"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Matthew 13:17 (NASB)
"For truly I say to you, that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it; and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Matthew 23:35 (NASB)
that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Luke 1:6 (NASB)
And they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Luke 2:25 (NASB)
And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

Luke 23:50 (NASB)
And behold, a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man

Acts 10:22 (NASB)
And they said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you." (Who didn't know about Jesus)

1 Tim. 1:9 (NASB)
realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
-------------------

You need to make distinctions between a righteousness that God does and has in times past, honored, self-righteousness He never does and the "stamp" of unrighteousness placed upon all mankind, because of Adam, that mankind, on his own, cannot remove. (Someone outside himself was/is needed to remove that indelible stain of unrighteousness)
To Quote Paul quoting Psalms quoting David mixed with a little Isaiah is no way to arrive at what you conclude,i.e.,implying that Paul was stating that man could not do righteously; could not honor God. That's a false reading of his words. There are specifics, its called context, in what Paul was saying (Rom 3.10--)you are completely overlooking --- and based upon your borrowed approach to my remarks I don't believe you can be dissuaded. You'll have to try to sort those issues out on your own.

May I suggest putting aside your "borrowed" books and just stay with he Bible.

That's my last.

Words mean something ----Show me my lack of love and I will. If you can't then don't accuse me as being as Stever who has unlovingly accused me.

Blessings,

:-(rm

need I say more Ormly!!!

Yes, you need to say more. How about the three !!!next to your kind remark? What do they represent?

Please show any loveless-ness in my remarks.

Must all such expression be deemed by the critics to be a lack of love? How about reviewing what provokes remarks you deem loveless. I think you will find your loveless-ness.

Then back off me because I feel I have gone out my way to draw out good discussion and all that seems to be accomplished is my being accused of heresy by someone who doesn't realize what the issues are.
I haven't accused, gotten angry, shouted in BIG GREEN letters and then call it a charade. Please redirect your comments. THanks

Orm

Boombat posted:

"We need to be united, not divided."

Stever's response:

The only time that the Church will ever be "united" is when Jesus Christ comes to this earth to rule and reign with a rod of iron.

At the present time, there are tares among the wheat, meaning there are sinners among the saved, sitting side by side with us in the Sanctuary.

The Whole Council of God tells us that until that time we are to contend for the faith. We are to protect the flock from wolves that pretend to be sheep. Ormly is such a wolf.

God's Word requires Christian believers to CONTEND FOR THE FAITH. What exactly does that mean?

The Bible tells us in Jude 1:3-5 to CONTEND for the faith:
3. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly CONTEND for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude 1:9 tells us that “9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”

What is the definition of CONTEND in the Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary of the American Language?

CONTEND, v.i. [L., to stretch. Gr., See Tend, Tenet.]
1. To strive, or to strive against; to struggle in opposition.
Distress not the Moabites, nor contend with them in battle. Deuteronomy 2.
2. To strive; to use earnest efforts to obtain, or to defend and preserve.
You sit above, and see vain men below contend for what you only can bestow.
Ye should earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. Jude 3.
3. To dispute earnestly; to strive in debate.
They that were of the circumcision contended with him. Acts 11. Job 9.
4. To REPROVE sharply; to chide; to strive to convince and reclaim.
Then contended I with the rulers. Nehemiah 13.
5.To strive in opposition; to punish.
The Lord God called to contend by fire. Amos 7.
6. To quarrel; to dispute fiercely; to wrangle. The parties contend about trifles.
To contend for, to strive to obtain; as, two competitors contend for the prize.
CONTEND, v.t. To dispute; to contest.
When Carthage shall contend the world with Rome.
This transitive use of contend is not strictly legitimate. The phrase is elliptical, for being understood after contend; but it is admissible in poetry.
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contend is also found in 55 definitions:
• altercate
• antagonize
• bandy
• battle
• bicker
• buffet
• camp-fight
• chide
• combat
• combatant
• con
• conflict
• contention
• contentious
• contentiousness
• contest
• controversy
• controvert
• cope
• deal
• debate
• differ
• dispute
• earnestly
• fall
• far
• fight
• grapple
• intercede
• open
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CONTEND is not a gentle word. It is a word that describes a struggle in opposition, To strive to defend and preserve, to list just a few definitions.

When we have a person who says they are a Christian believer, yet presents false doctrine to the body of Christ we are instructed to contend for the faith.

Proverbs 9:8-9 tells us that if a wise man is rebuke, he will love you:

8. REPROVE not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. 9. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
Websters 1828 Dictionary gives us this understanding of “rebuke”:

REBU'KE, v.t. [See Pack and Impeach.]
1. To chide; to REPROVE; to reprehend for a fault; to check by reproof.
The proud he tam'd, the penitent he cheer'd, not to rebuke the rich offender fear'd.
Thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor. Lev. 19.
2. To check or restrain.
The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. Zech. 3. Is. 17.
3. To chasten; to punish; to afflict for correction.
O Lord, rebuke me not in thine anger. Ps. 6.
4. To check; to silence.
Master, rebuke thy disciples. Luke 19.
5. To check; to heal.
And he stood over her and rebuked the fever. Luke 4.
6. To restrain; to calm.
He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea. Matt. 8.

REBU'KE, n. 1. A chiding; reproof for faults; reprehension.
Why bear you these rebukes and answer not?
2. IN SCRIPTURE, CHASTISEMENT; PUNISHMENT; AFFLICTION FOR THE PURPOSE OF RESTRAINT AND CORRECTION. EZEK. 5. HOS. 5.
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rebuke is also found in 32 definitions:
• chasten
• check
• chide
• chiding
• come

DOCTRINE, n. [L., to teach.]
1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master. The doctrines of the gospel are the principles or truths taught by Christ and his apostles. The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion.
2. The act of teaching.
He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in his doctrine. Mark 4.
3. Learning; knowledge.
Whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Isaiah 28.
4. The truths of the gospel in general.
That they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. Titus 2.
5. Instruction and confirmation in the truths of the gospel. 2 Timothy 3.
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doctrine is also found in 180 definitions

REPROOF', n. [from REPROVE].

1. Blame expressed to the face; censure for a fault; reprehension.
Those best can bear reproof, who merit praise.
He that hateth reproof is brutish. Prov 12.
2. Blame cast; censure directed to a person.
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reproof is also found in 40 definitions:

• rebuke
• admonition
• censure
• check
• chide
• chiding
• corrector
• correption

When a brother in the Lord posts heresy, he must be rebuked. If he comeS forward with false doctrine, we must EXPOSE IT FOR WHAT IT IS-FALSE!

That is exactly what I did with Ormly. Did it offend you? I surely hope not. We are all called to be CHRISTIAN SOLDIERES, prepared to do battle for God's word, for God's Doctrine.

[b][color=0033FF]Proverbs 19:25 tells us “25. Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and REPROVE one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge.”-THIS APPLIES TO ORMLY!
[/color][/b]

Ephesians 5:8-16 tells us to REPROVE those who have fallen away:
8. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9. (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10. Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather REPROVE them. 12. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13. But all things that are REPROVED are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16. Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Many times I presented to Ormly the error of his ways by providing Scripture. His response? He never addressed my posts, line by line (that were all scripture that exposed his heresy). He came back with questions, and subterfuge, and games.

9.A man that is an HERETICK after the first and second admonition REJECT; 11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Admonition:
ADMONI'TION, n. Gentle reproof; counseling against a fault; instruction in duties; caution; direction. Tit. 3. 1Cor. 10. In church discipline, public or private reproof to reclaim an offender; a step preliminary to excommunication.

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admonition is also found in 25 definitions:
• admonishment
• admonitive
• forewarning
• iterate
• reprove
• steel

[b][color=0033FF]We are all called to be Christian Soldiers, in a battle for the faith. We are not called to compromise God's Word, to compromise God's teaching so that we can all "get along". As Christian believers, we will all face Christ at the Bema Judgment and he will see through us with His eyes of fire. Everything that we have done for Him will give us reward, everything we have do for self will be burned before our eyes as wood, hay and stubble.[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever

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