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B
boomatt

Just thought you guys would like to take a look at what Iran is doing now!!!

The end is near! PRAISE GOD!

Iran letter precursor to war?
Analysts say it follows Muhammad's instructions for jihad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: May 11, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (courtesy Radio Netherlands)

Some Middle East observers believe Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's letter to President Bush could be a precursor to war, based on a traditional Muslim pattern of offering acceptance of Islam before establishing it by force.

Robert Spencer, editor of Jihad Watch, says Ahmadinejad appears to be following the teachings of Muhammad, who gave specific instructions to followers as they engage in "holy war" against "those who disbelieve in Allah."

In a Hadith, regarded by Muslims as sacred writings about Muhammad, the Islamic prophet says a series of offers should be made to "enemies" to embrace Islam, or at least accept Islamic rule, and if they are rejected, "seek Allah's help and fight them."


In his letter, Ahmadinejad argues only Islam can "overcome the present problems of the world" and asks Bush, "Will you not accept this invitation? That is, a genuine return to the teachings of prophets, to monotheism and justice, to preserve human dignity and obedience to the Almighty and His prophets? Mr President, History tells us that repressive and cruel governments do not survive."

Another observer of Islam, journalist Stephen Adams, said the letter seems to parallel a missive from al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden to Americans prior to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Interviewed on the Michael Medved radio show yesterday, Adams noted bin Laden stated his grievances against the United States and gave Americans the opportunity to "repent."

Based on precedent, Adams continued, he expects the next step will be for Iran to make the invitation public. Then the "crimes" of the U.S. will be published and the grievances will be cited at Friday prayers in mosques. Finally, comes a fatwa, amounting to a declaration of war.

Adams, associate editor of Citizen magazine, said it's possible this scenario could unfold in a matter of weeks.

In a column for WorldNetDaily, Middle East analyst Laura Mansfield said she believes the letter could be a "last warning."

Mansfield says the question must be asked: "Why deliver such a letter when there is little chance it will result in policy changes for either country?"

Like Spencer and Adams, she points out: "Islamic theology documents that no attack can be carried out in jihad without first offering the 'unbelievers' the opportunity to 'repent' and accept Islam. Only when that overture is rejected can an attack occur."

The Iranian president has made clear, at least to audiences at home, Tehran's ultimate intentions.

As WorldNetDaily reported in January, Ahmadinejad told a crowd of theological students in Iran's holy city of Qom that Islam must prepare to rule the world.

"We must believe in the fact that Islam is not confined to geographical borders, ethnic groups and nations. It's a universal ideology that leads the world to justice," Ahmadinejad said Jan. 5, according to Mehran Riazaty, a former Iran analyst for the Central Command of the Coalition Forces in Baghdad.

Ahmadinejad, who drew global attention for his contention the Holocaust was a "myth," said: "We don't shy away from declaring that Islam is ready to rule the world." Two months earlier, he threatened to "wipe Israel off the map"

Riazaty, in a post on the website Regime Change Iran, said the Iranian president emphasized his current theme that the return of the Shiite messiah, the Mahdi, is not far away, and Muslims must prepare for it.

According to Shiites, the 12th imam disappeared as a child in the year 941. When he returns, they believe, he will reign on earth for seven years, before bringing about a final judgment and the end of the world.

Ahmadinejad is urging Iranians to prepare for the coming of the Mahdi by turning the country into a mighty and advanced Islamic society and by avoiding the corruption and excesses of the West.

"We must prepare ourselves to rule the world and the only way to do that is to put forth views on the basis of the Expectation of the Return," Ahmadinejad said. "If we work on the basis of the Expectation of the Return [of the Mahdi], all the affairs of our nation will be streamlined and the administration of the country will become easier."

R
rookie

Also the Taliban are beginning to take over southern Afghanistan.

In Christ
Jeff

C
Compton

I can't say I share your enthusiam here fellas. Iran is trying to get ready for the return of it's warlord prophet like in the days before Gengis Khan...only this time they have nuclear weapons. The scenario is out of some "B" science fiction movie.

If Muslims and Christians are jumping for joy at the prospect of armmegeddon...can we blame the world for fearing and hating religion? Do we not see how we are contributing to the evil in this world when we start looking forward to World War III?

Libera me, Domine, in die illa tremenda. Dies illa, dies irae, calamitatis et miseriae.

MC

C
crsschk

If Muslims and Christians are jumping for joy at the prospect of armmegeddon...can we blame the world for fearing and hating religion? Do we not see how we are contributing to the evil in this world when we start looking forward to World War III?

Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Came to mind earlier, even if it does apply differently in it's context. I may be thinking of an entirely different verse here, but must concur with you MC.

S
sermonindex

Libera me, Domine, in die illa tremenda. Dies illa, dies irae, calamitatis et miseriae.
[i]Liberate me, O God, - - - - ?

? - - ? - - calamity and misery....[/i]

Help me out, please?

B
boomatt

Come on fellas,


You obviously are making something out of this that there doesnt need to be.

I am excited for the Lords return, The bible tells us to look up, because our redemption draws near.

I am not obviously referring to death and destruction to the world, that I am not excited for many of my family members that arent saved, and friends.


Please dont cause division when it is not necessary. You guys knew what I was referring to.

God Bless

R
rookie

Brother Mike wrote:

If Muslims and Christians are jumping for joy at the prospect of armmegeddon...can we blame the world for fearing and hating religion? Do we not see how we are contributing to the evil in this world when we start looking forward to World War III?

This reminds me of this Scripture...

Is. 66:4 \tSo will I choose their delusions,
\tAnd bring their fears on them;
\tBecause, when I called, no one answered,
\tWhen I spoke they did not hear;
\tBut they did evil before My eyes,
\tAnd chose that in which I do not delight.”

And also...

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


The delusions come because we do not love the truth. The war you speak of may come, and His will will be done. Yet what is the outcome for those who love God?

Psalm 66:

7 \tHe rules by His power forever;
\tHis eyes observe the nations;
\tDo not let the rebellious exalt themselves.
\t\t\t\tSelah
8 \tOh, bless our God, you peoples!
\tAnd make the voice of His praise to be heard,
9 \tWho keeps our soul among the living,
\tAnd does not allow our feet to be moved.
10 \tFor You, O God, have tested us;
\tYou have refined us as silver is refined.
11 \tYou brought us into the net;
\tYou laid affliction on our backs.
12 \tYou have caused men to ride over our heads;
\tWe went through fire and through water;
\tBut You brought us out to rich fulfillment.

There will be those who will understand this once again..

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Prov. 12:12 \tThe wicked covet the catch of evil men,
\tBut the root of the righteous yields fruit.

This Scripture brings to mind how the Iranians covet the catch of whom they consider evil, just like others covet the catch of those they believe to be evil. As Brother Mike spoke, there seems something wrong with all of this.

But what does the second part of this verse say?

But the root of the righteous yields fruit. What we are experiencing today is the absence of fruit...

In Christ
Jeff

R
Rahman


Brethren ...

i don't say this in judgment (for i'm included), but in a kind of sad amazement ... But isn't it funny how quickly we saints can come at odds with one another on so many biblical texts, subjects, etc ... It's no wonder why we have so many denoms, and even denoms of denoms ... i wonder what it means to be on one accord, i wonder what that feels like ... i guess the one accord that we all share is that Jesus is the only WAY ...


Anyhow bro Mike brought up Amos ... i've done some delving into Amos because it's there that God said that He'd not make a move unless He telegraphed it thru His prophets first, and here's some commentary (Matthew Henry's) on 5:18 and who God was talking to in reference to "wrongly" looking foward to His day of correction ...

[b]QUOTE:

1) - A just and severe reproof to those who made light of these threatenings, and impudently bade defiance to the justice of God and his judgments, v. 18.

2) - Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord, that really wish for times of war and confusion, as some do who have restless spirits, and long for changes,

3) - or who choose to fish in troubled waters, hoping to raise their families, as some had done, upon the ruins of their country;[/b]

but the prophet tells them that this should be so great a desolation that nobody could get by it.

[b]4) - Or it is spoken to those who, in their wailings and lamentations for the calamities they were in, wished they might die, and be delivered out of their misery, as Job did, with passion. The prophet shows them the folly of this.[/b]

Do they know what death is to those who are unprepared for it, and how much more terrible it will be than any thing that can befal them in this life?

[b]5) - Or, rather, it is spoken to those who speak jestingly of that day of the Lord which the prophet spoke so seriously of; they desired it, that is, they challenged it; they said, Let him do his worst; let him make speed, and hasten his work, Isa. 5:19. Where is the promise of his coming? 2 Pt. 3:4. It intimates, 1. That they do not believe it. They say that they wish it would come because they do not believe it will ever come; nor will they believe it unless they see it. 2. That they do not fear it; though they may have some belief of it, yet they had so little consideration of it, and their mind is so intent upon other things, that they are under no apprehension at all of peril from it; instead of having the conscience to dread it, they have the curiosity to desire it. In answer to this, (1.) He shows the folly of those who impudently wished for any of God's judgments, and made a jest of any of the terrors of the Lord: "To what end is it for you that the day of the Lord should come? You will find it both certain and sad; not a thing to be bantered, for it is neither a thing to be questioned whether it will come or no nor a thing to be turned off with a slight when it does come. The day of the Lord is darkness, and not light, v. 18. Shall it not be so? v. 20. Do not your own consciences tell you that it will be so, that it will be very dark, and no brightness in it?'' Note, The day of the Lord will be a dark, dismal, gloomy day to all impenitent sinners; the day of judgment will be so; and sometimes the day of their present trouble. And, when God makes a day dark, all the world cannot make it light. (2.) He shows the folly of those who impatiently wished for a change of God's judgment, in hopes that the next would be better and more tolerable. They desire the day of the Lord, in hopes to better themselves (though their hearts and lives be not amended), or, at least, to know the worst. But the prophet tells them that they know not what they ask, v. 19. It is as if a man did flee from a lion and a bear met him, a beast of prey more cruel and ravenous than a lion, or as if a man, to escape all dangers abroad, went into the house for security, and leaned his hand on the wall to rest himself, and there a serpent bit him. Note, Those who are not reformed by the judgments of God will be pursued by them; and, if they escape one, another stands ready to seize them; fear and the pit and snare surround them, Isa. 24:17, 18. It is madness therefore to defy the day of the Lord.[/b]


Personally as one who talks about and thinks on the day of the Lord a lot, in this setting that boomat has posted i think Amos 5:18 pertains to the #1 & #5 types who desire (as a taunt) the Lord's day to come, with the #2 type right behind them ... i also think that the #2 type desire is one we saints have to really watch out for ...

i'm torn between desiring the day of the Lord to come ... On the one hand i want it because it would finally put an end to all this suffering here on earth, but on the other hand it ends the harvest into the Body of Christ ... It's easy for me to rejoice in the craziness of world events as signs that my deliverance is getting near because i'm saved, but then i lament at the prospect due to all those that are not saved ...

But then all is left up to God and His timing ... None of us know the day or the hour, and even in light of the worlds escalating madness none of us know or can conjecture just how much time is left ... But we ALL do know this, every minute He gives us on this side is another opportunity for us to confess His name before men in urgent harvest of fellow vessels of mercy until the day of our Lord comes ...

[b]i think it even more interesting the following woe at Amos 6;

[1] Woe to them that are at ease in Zion ...
[3] Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
[4] That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;
[5] That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick ...
[6] That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.
[7] Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed.[/b]

[color=FF0033]Ouch! ... what was then sounds like Laodicea now ... Send us massive Holy Ghost soaked REVIVAL Lord ... PLEASE![/color]

C
ChrisJD

Hi bootmat and everyone. Great grace be upon us all in hearing and listening and speaking.

In a sort of interesting way, I was glad to see this thread as it answered a question I had after hearing something on the way home last night!

I was standing at the corner waiting to cross the street and noticed as this car passed, the driver was talking to himself? rather excitedly; I could hear this because his window was down. He was saying something to the effect of they are going to, or there's going to be, war now.

Well, that made me wonder of course what he was talking about and he seemed excited about it, in a sort of triumphant way. On the rest of the way home I kept my eyes alert to see if I noticed anything in the news on the tv's as I passed by the stores but didn't see anything. Since the attack in 2001, I have a subtle anticipation of hearing something like that again, at least it is a possibility in my mind.

So when I got home and read this thread, I was confident that this is what the man was talking about. Although I could be wrong on this, I think I remember that the driver had a Muslim style beard.

So this leads me to the two sorts of reactions being discussed about this news.

If this man was indeed a Muslim, then perhaps we see what Compton was referring to in his behavior, which reminds me too of the proverb

....he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.

And then I know and have shared what I feel bootmat was expressing, how we sometimes just want it all to end, for the Lord to return, and all of this madness to stop which I think brother Rahman has expressed also.

Maybe it is true of our day also... that it is the best of times, and it is the worst of times as well.

Peace be with you all in Messiah Jesus.

C
crsschk

Please dont cause division when it is not necessary. You guys knew what I was referring to.

Hi boomatt,

In all fairness you are correct on the one hand and yet perhaps we are talking past each other. Actually we likely didn't take this into consideration, what you intended, difficult to know until now.

No division intended nor necessary. Perhaps it was more knee jerk then anything, have heard enough of the unfortunate underlying sentiment that was elaborated on in the replies following, that brought out the considerations and concerns.

To look at it on the surface, don't think it was a reach for some of us to see it that way, we didn't really know what you were referring to exactely.

But it is understood with that clarification. Thanks!

C
crsschk

This is turning into a very intriguing thread...

....he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.

Yes, another there.

And then I know and have shared what I feel bootmat was expressing, how we sometimes just want it all to end, for the Lord to return, and all of this madness to stop which I think brother Rahman has expressed also.

Despite the earlier misunderstandings, certainly a shared sentiment. Some good discussion here brothers.

S
Scroggins

I get so excited when I hear about these things. Not over the clamity, yes while [b]in[/b] the calmity, but the excitement is over the Lord's return no doubt.

Makes me want to scream out from the roof tops, "HIS return fast approaches, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!"

In HIS Love,
Scroggins

B
boomatt

Sorry guys that I didnt make myself a little clearer. I hope you all have a great weekend


God Bless

R
Rahman

Scroggins wrote;
"Makes me want to scream out from the roof tops, "HIS return fast approaches, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!"

--- Part of my burden is believing that He's shown me what it's gonna take for His Bride to be corporately brought (particularly here in America) to this same place ... And tho i have an idea of how judgment will first begin in His house (the knocking down of our idols of ease), i don't know excatly when but my spiritual "spidey senses" are tingling like crazy ...

So why aren't we as preacher/pastor led congregations not shouting from the rooftops REPENT!? ... Again i hate to be a broken record but i believe i hear our Lord's "pounding" intensifying this ...

Rev. 3;
[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

We ain't hearing (collectively) folks! ... It's funny how our Lord has me not burdened by the heathens raging for their escalations does in fact make me lift up my head and rejoice of closer deliverance, but He has me very burdened with the lack of His Church's (corporate) raging, the sense of as Art Katz puts it His Body sounding the alarm under a mantle like Amos' ... It may seem sufficient to leave such warnings to be done by a few seemingly over zealous "jesters for Jesus", but what does God say about the strength of "one" compared to that of "two" and then "three" ... You don't get much bar-b-queing done with a single coal ...

That's why this in Amos 6 is so relevant now;
[1] Woe to them that are at ease in Zion (Christ Church) ...
[3] Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near ...

Our corporate laxity in the "great commission" of Christ is eternal death to the world, and a sure fire coming "rebuke" of correction for us ... But of course as Amos (then) and Rev. (now) both point out, we don't really believe it! ... Pro-active repentance never seems to be the modus-opperendi of God's folk. re-active (to God's harsh grace) seems to be our only way ... i think all we saints must be from Missouri (the show me state) ...

If anyone's interested i've pasted Matthew Henry's commentary on Amos 6: 1-7 ... It's long but man does it speak volumes to me in regards us (His Church) and America as a nation ---


Verses 1-7

The first words of the chapter are the contents of these verses; but they sound very strangely, and contrary to the sentiments of a vain world: Woe to those that are at ease! We are ready to say, Happy are those that are at ease, that neither feel any trouble nor fear any, that lie soft and warm, and lay nothing to heart; and wise we think are those that do so, that bathe themselves in the delights of sense and care not how the world goes. Those are looked upon as doing well for themselves that do well for their bodies and make much of them; but against them this woe is denounced, and we are here told what their ease is, and what the woe is.

I. Here is a description of their pride, security, and sensuality, for which God would reckon with them.

1. They were vainly conceited of their own dignities, and thought those would secure them from the judgments threatened and be their defence against the wrath both of God and man. (1.) Those that dwelt in Zion thought that was honour and protection enough for them, and they might there be quiet from all fear of evil, because it was a strong city, well fortified both by nature and art (we read of Zion's strong-holds and her bulwarks), and because it was a royal city, where were set the thrones of the house of David (it was the head-city of Judah, and therefore truly great), and especially because it was the holy city, where the temple was, and the testimony of Israel; those that dwelt there doubted not but that God's sanctuary would be a sanctuary to them and would shelter them from his judgments. The temple of the Lord are these, Jer. 7:4. They are haughty because of the holy mountain, Zep. 3:11. Note, Many are puffed up with pride, and rocked asleep in carnal security, by their church-privileges, and the place they have in Zion. (2.) Those that dwelt in the mountain of Samaria, though it was not a holy hill, like that of Zion, yet they trusted in it, because it was the metropolis of a potent kingdom, and perhaps, in imitation of Jerusalem, was the head-quarters of its religion; and by lapse of time the hill of Shemer became with them in as good repute as the hill of Zion ever was. They hoped for salvation from these hills and mountains. (3.) Both these two kingdoms valued themselves upon their relation to Israel, that prince with God, which they looked upon as masking them the chief of the nations, more ancient and honourable than any of them; the first-fruits of the nations (so the word is), dedicated to God and sanctifying the whole harvest. The house of Israel came to them, that is, was divided into those kingdoms, of which Zion and Samaria were the mother cities. Those that were at ease were the princes and rulers, the great men, that were chief of the nations, chief of those two kingdoms, and to whom, having their residence in Zion and Samaria, the whole house of Israel applied for judgment. Note, It is hard to be great and not to be proud. Great nations and great men are apt to overvalue themselves, and to overlook their neighbours, because they think they a little overtop them. But, for a check to their pride and security, the prophet bids them take notice of those cities that were within the compass of their knowledge, that had been as illustrious in their time as ever Zion or Samaria was, and yet were destroyed, v. 2. "Go to Calneh (which was an ancient city built by Nimrod, Gen. 10:10), and see what has become of that, it is now in ruins; so is Hamath the great, one of the chief cities of Syria. Sennacherib boasts of destroying the gods of Hamath. Gath was likewise made desolate by Hazael, and not long ago, 2 Ki. 12:17. Now were they better than these kingdoms of Judah and Israel? Yes, they were, and their border greater than your border, so that they had more reason than you to be confident of their own safety; yet you see what has become of them, and dare you be secure? Art thou better than populous No?'' Nah. 3:8. Note, The examples of others' ruin forbid us to be secure.

2. They persisted in their wicked courses upon a presumption that they should never be called to an account for them (v. 3): "You put far away the evil day, the day of reckoning, as a thing that shall never come, or you look upon it as at such a distance that it makes no impression at all upon you; you put it far away, and think you can still put it yet further, and adjourn it de die in diem—from day to day, and therefore you cause the seat of violence to draw near; you venture upon all acts of injustice and oppression, and have fellowship with the throne of iniquity, which frames mischief by a law, Ps. 94:20. You cause that to come near, as if that would be your protection from these judgments which really ripens you for them.'' Note, Therefore men take sin to be near them, because they take judgment to be far off from them; but those deceive themselves who thus mock God.

3. They indulged themselves in all manner of sensual pleasures and delights, v. 4-6. These Israelites were perfect epicures and slaves to their appetites. Their dignities (in consideration of which they ought to have been examples of self-denial and mortification), they thought, would justify them in their sensuality; the gains of their oppression and violence, they thought, would bear the charge of it; and they put the evil day at a distance, that they might give them no disturbance in it. That which they are here charged with is not in itself sinful (these things might be soberly and moderately used), but they placed their happiness in the gratification of their carnal appetites; and though they were men in office, that had business to mind, they gave themselves up to their pleasures, spent their time in them, and threw away their thoughts, and cares, and estates upon them. They were in these enjoyments as in their element. Their hearts were upon them; they exceeded all bounds in them, and this at a time when God in his providence was calling them to weeping and mourning, Isa. 22:12, 13. When they were under guilt and wrath, and the judgments of God were ready to break in upon them, they called for wine and strong drink, presuming that to-morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant (Isa. 56:12), thus walking contrary to God and setting his justice at defiance. (1.) They were extravagant in their furniture. Nothing would serve them but beds of ivory to sleep upon, or to sit on at their meat, when sackcloth and ashes would have become them better. (2.) They were lazy, and humoured themselves in the love of ease. They did not only lie down, but stretched themselves upon their couches, when they should have stirred up themselves to their business; they were willingly slothful, and took a pride in doing nothing; they abound in superfluities (so the margin reads it), when many of their poor brethren wanted necessaries. (3.) They were nice and curious in their diet, must have every thing of the best and abundance of it: They ate the lambs out of the flock (lambs by wholesale) and the calves out of the midst of the stall, the fattest they could lay their hand on; and these perhaps not out of their own flock and their own stall, but taken by oppression from the poor. (4.) They were merry and jovial, and diverted themselves at their feasts with music and singing: They chant to the sound of the viol, sing and play in concert, and they invent new-fashioned instruments of music, striving herein, more than in any thing else, to excel their ancestors; they set their wits on work to contrive how to please their fancy. Some men never show their ingenuity but in their luxury; on that they bestow all their faculty of invention and contrivance. They invent instruments of music, like David, entertain themselves with that which formerly used to be the entertainment of kings only. Or it intimates their profaneness in their mirth; they mimicked the temple-music, and made a jest of that, because, it may be, it was old-fashioned, and they took a pride in bantering it as the Babylonians did when they urged the captives to sing to them the songs of Zion; such was Belshazzar's profaneness when he drank wine in temple-bowls, and such is theirs that sing vain and loose songs in psalm-tunes, on purpose to ridicule a divine institution. (5.) They drank to excess, and never thought they could pour down enough: They drank wink in bowls, not in glasses, or cups (as Jer. 35:5); they hate to be stinted, and must have large draughts, and therefore make use of vessels that they can steal a draught out of. (6.) They affected the strongest perfumes: They anoint themselves with the chief ointments, to please the smell, and to make them more in love with their own bodies, and to guard against those presages of putrefaction which they carry about with them while they live. No ordinary ointments would serve their turn; they must have the chief, such as were far-fetched and dear-bought, when cheaper would have served as well.

4. They had no concern at all for the interests of the church of God, and of the nation, that were sinking and going to decay: They are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph; the church of God, including both the kingdoms of Judah and Israel (which are called Joseph, Ps. 80:1), was in distress, invaded, insulted, and broken in upon. As to their own kingdom which they were entrusted with the government of, the affairs of which they were directors of, the peace of which they were the conservators of, great breaches were made upon it, upon its peace and welfare; and they were so besotted that they were not aware of them, so indulgent of their pleasures that they never laid them to heart, and had such an aversion to the thing called business that they were in no care or concern to get them repaired. It is all one to them whether the nation sink or swim, so that they can but lie at ease and live in pleasure. Particular persons that belonged to Joseph were in affliction, and they took no cognizance of their case of the wrongs and hardships they sustained and the troubles they were in, nor took any care to relieve them, and right them, contrary to the temper of holy Job, who, when he was in prosperity, wept with him that was in misery and his soul was grieved for the poor, Job 30:25. Some think that, in calling the afflicted church Joseph, there is an allusion to the story of Pharaoh's butler, who, when he preferred to give the cup again into his master's hand, remembered not Joseph, but forgot him, Gen. 40:21, 23. Thus they drank wine in bowls, but were not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Note, Those are commonly careless of the troubles of others who are set upon their own pleasures; and it is a great offence to God when his church is in affliction and we are not grieved for it, nor lay it to heart.

II. Here is the doom passed upon them (v. 7): Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and shall fall into all the miseries that attend captives; and the banquet of those that stretched themselves upon their couches shall be removed. Their plenty shall be taken from them, and they from it, because they made it the food and fuel of their lusts. 1. Those who lived in luxury shall lose even their liberty; and by being brought into servitude shall be justly punished for the abuse of their dignity and dominion. 2. Those who trusted in the delights and pleasures of their own land shall be carried away into a strange land, and so made ashamed of their pride and confidence; they shall go captive. 3. Those who placed their happiness in the pleasures of sense, and set their hearts upon them, shall be deprived of those pleasures; their banquet shall be removed, and they shall know what it is to fare hard. 4. Those who stretched themselves shall be made to contract themselves, and to come into a less compass. 5. Those who put the evil day far from them shall find it nearer to them than it is to others; those shall go captive with the first who flattered themselves with hopes that if trouble did come they should be the last who should be seized by it. Those are ripening apace for trouble themselves who lay not to heart the trouble of others and of the church of God. Those who give themselves to mirth, when God calls them to mourning, will find it a sin that shall not go unpunished, Isa. 22:14.


--- i don't believe that we the Church can/will ever shout REPENT to the world until we're brought to our collective knees in REPENTANCE before God first and then empowered by Holy Spirit to doing so by REVIVAL ...

Many see this as far off ... i don't! ---

S
Scroggins

Bro Rahman,

Your input is wonderful. Your thoughts much echo the burning within me myself. Thank you for your Loving response and the info from Matthew Henry.

Repentance for me is a daily thing. I am most likely the least Holy person on the face of the planet. But what else is there but to try?

I am currently in the process of getting into CFNI for studies. I hope to be a "preacher/pastor" (which in todays world, sadly enough, you must be a "learned man" with a degree to preach; otherwise the people take no ear to what you say) so that I may be able to stand at the front and talk to everyone about the judgment and repentance. I dont claim to be anything other than a complete monstrosity, but to prove myself is far less important to me than to prove Christ's deity and to warn people of a masters return to unruly servants. If I go to hell for the mistakes I've made, so be it, GOD is worthy of that choice and I of HIS judgment. You will not see a single soul that is being sent to hell crying out about unfairness. They will see their cause and scream out in the agony of the revelations. But if I should go to hell at the end of it, good GOD, I will be screaming "REPENT, REPENT, REPENT in the eyes of the Lord GOD, Jesus Christ!" on the way down.

I love you all!

In HIS Love,
Scroggins

R
roadsign

Libera me, Domine, in die illa tremenda. Dies illa, dies irae, calamitatis et miseriae.

Dorcas wrote:

Help me out, please?

Try this:
Deliver me, O Lord, in that awful day, that day of day of wrath, calamity, and misery.”

It's church music of the past. These Latin words were often sung in in masses, requiems (vocal music in memory of the dead) and used by composers in their arrangements - Bach, Faure..

Sometimes it seems to me that in our day the song on many hearts has changed to “Yippee! God’s coming and I’m outa here!
Diane

S
Scroggins

HAHA!

Very funny that you say that Diane. That is very true.

But we should also rejoice at the Lord's return. Because HIS return means so much more than "Yippee! GOD's coming and I'm outa here!"

To carve it down to such a thing is something that should not happen. But is that is really the only thing expressed? Or maybe the only thing we care to recognize?

Maybe we need to look so much not at the statements made, but more so the [b]HEART[/b] behind those statements.

But then again, I'm not a smart man. Oh well, it is just a thought after all.

In HIS Love,
Scroggins

R
roadsign

Maybe we need to look so much not at the statements made, but more so the HEART behind those statements.

So true, after all, either could be an extreme that arises from unbelief. There is a balance - a quiet trust tempered by the sober awareness of the reality of God's judgment.
Diane

S
sermonindex

Deliver me, O Lord, in that awful day, that day of day of wrath, calamity, and misery.”
Thanks, Diane. 8-) I'm certainly clearer.

C
Compton

Rahman mentioned how this subject, like so many, creates a sense of division among us. I would say that it creates a sense of division within us as individuals...I understand the inner conflict of joy at the return of the Lord and the dread of a terrible holocaust that it may be linked to.

Please dont cause division when it is not necessary. You guys knew what I was referring to.

It was not my intention to cause division per se…however I suppose I did want to divide our certainty in Christ from our certainty of end times interpretations. Christians have always looked forward to the end, but our current Gospel has become so apocalyptic. Many times in the forum here I have mentioned my childhood growing under the prophetic mushroom clouds of Hal Lindsey and other prophetic gurus who converted Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation into daily headlines, and envisioned locusts as helicopters and fiery judgment as nuclear weapons. I must admit, there appears much validity in these interpretations, but there is a dark side that I don’t think we Christians pays enough attention to. Some look at American military power and accuse America of rising arrogance but I believe it is rising fear that is awakening the sleeping giant.

1000 years ago Christians also feared the end of the world with the new millennium. Yet the difference from them and us is that we have the power to bring an apocalypse on our own.

Consider a few examples. We Christians in this country by in large support the nation of Israel, which is a fine thing. Our public support is leveraged into American military support, which is no secret thing. Yet many of us who see Israel’s' right to defend herself militarily as almost a biblical mandate, would not condone US participation in that same conflict, nor do we cotton to Russia selling arms to Iran. Now I understand why it is so important to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. The whole world is linked to her.

Do we all remember that many Christians were saying that the invasion of Iraq was the fulfillment of a Bible prophecy that Babylon would be destroyed? What is our Christian message to the Islamic jihadist? What attitudes are being nurtured in our children that will result in actions tens years from now?

My point here is that if we believe that war is inevitable for us all in the next few years...how can we think to avoid it? Indeed even as I ask the question many readers will scoff and say. "You can't...it's in the bible." Yes, we know that the end will come, but we cannot know that the next war will signify the return of Jesus. After all he could come like a thief this very day.

Meanwhile millions of American Christians, as well as millions of religiously fascinated bystanders, don't believe the world can survive another ten years. Like a school of fish moving together, we become a type of consciousness that affects the world through our message, our politics, and ultimately our actions. Even our evangelism has moved, by in large, away from starting long term multi-generational works like the Salvation Army to “getting people saved” in a single meeting so they can be ready when the end comes. I would go so far to suggest that “humanism” has grown partly because of the vacuum the Church created when she withdrew from investing into humanity to invest in her own spirituality. Never have we had more prophets among us then now…and never have we been more insignificant in relation to the full ministry of Jesus.

Does it require prophetic talent to perceive we stand at the brink of a terrible war? Not at all. Rational fear can paint the picture just fine. Indeed, contrary to those who see American military power as a sign of rising arrogance, I see it as a sign of rising fears. We fearful Americans can see the biblical picture coming together. We are already assembled in the Middle East ready to start World War III because we know that peace is impossible. Next we can see China and Russia coming down there to protect the diminishing oil reserves. The end of this age is soon coming. Yet…what if all that happens is not the fulfillment of our hopes and dreams, but simply the worst war in human history? What if Jesus’ time is not yet? Are there prophets among us who will guarantee that when the smoke clears Jesus will be on His throne is Jerusalem? Of course not. BTW I am not among those who do not believe he will never return…I believe he most certainly will.

No doubt, because I dare to question these things, some will in turn question the Spirit within me. Like I said, this is a controversial subject even within the individual. Now I really do understand and relate to the hope that we often express in these situations. Maybe we feel helpless and somehow prophetic interpretation of these horrible events is our anchor in the storm.

Libera me, Domine, in die illa tremenda. Dies illa, dies irae, calamitatis et miseriae.

Diane was correct. I grabbed this dramitic latin text on calamity and wrath (removing the word eternity) to identify with those early Christians at the turn of the millinium who understandably did not want bad things to happen to them. ;-)

Wrath, calamity, and misery are apt descriptions of war, which is what I believe this thread is about. I realize that some perceive this thread about the return of Christ, but it was my exact point to show how meshed our message of hope has become meshed with an apocalypse in our lifetime. Certainly our hope in Christ will not end in eternal calamity…but it could bring calamity on others if we do not understand the forces we might unwittingly unleash when we assume war is God’s plan. This is especially true for Christians living in a superpower nation.

If I’m wrong to question all this apocalyptic fever then I am happy as a lark. In all honest it’s hard to imagine this planet surviving another generation…but I brought 3 children into this world and I’m obligated to prepare them for the future anyways. For their sakes, I do not think my questioning of all this prophetic certainty is unhealthy. Like Diane said we must be balanced...my repsonse to these things is in the spirit of that balance. Maybe the Lord has told some when and how the end with happen, but he hasn’t told me. Now my imagination does runaway at times, like it did when I was a child imagining the Soviet Union destroying America like many predicted. (I think an interesting book would be to study the impact that the Cold War had upon American Christianity. I thnk it would be very revealing.)

My apologies if I seem divisive. I know it may seem humanistic, but I hope and pray there is not a war at all and that Lord does come like a thief in the night without a single mushroom cloud to mark the occasion. I don't think the Lord forbids such prayers.

Blessings brothers and sisters,

MC

S
sermonindex

without a single mushroom cloud to mark the occasion
Here is a little balance:

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:24
For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Zechariah 14
and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


I think, sometimes, we forget it is possible 'immediately' to be in the Spirit. It is instant transport. It does not take 'time' to travel and certainly not, for the Son of Man to come back as He ascended ... yes in a cloud, but, not in a mushroom cloud...

Luke 24
and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Acts 1
while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

R
roadsign

World news such as this article reminds me of the infamous ancient newscast episode – when ten reporters returned to the Israelites with news about the giants in the Promised Land. The reporters did their job, yet their reports were filtered through their own perception of God. It is no different today. Reporters typically filter their observations through their eyes of unbelief. And by far, most of their audience accepts their perception – because they also see world events through the eyes of unbelief.

I am convinced that God, in his sovereignty, allows these threats to arise in order to test the faith of his children. That would be nothing new for him; we see that all through scripture.

I don’t want to diminish the actuality of the modern-day “giants” in Iran. Yet, I wonder: Does the household of God look at these reports through the eyes of fear or faith ?

Of course, we Christians all respond unhesitatingly: “Why, faith, of course!” Yet I wonder, why do our thoughts instinctively go to the Lord’s return every time we see dark clouds? Could our response possibly reveal that fear lurks in our minds, and our faith is weak? So, thinking about the Lord’s return becomes like an escape valve for our anxiety.

A faith response is vastly different than a fear response.

In the letters to the Thessalonians Paul addressed believers who, even then, were expecting an imminent return of Christ. I believe that his exhortations still apply to us today. A faith response is required of us too. Whether or not we know the latest news should make little difference to us. We persevere in faith regardless:

“Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith.”1 Thes 3:10

“for this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith.” 1 Thes 3:5

Those who lack faith “are not busy; they are busybodies….” 2 Thes. 3: 11 May God reveal to me where I am a busybody - merely running after bits of juicy information just for curiosity.

I believe that Christ’s return is an unexpected surprise only for those who do NOT have faith – just as in the days of Noah. “But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light.. I suspect that those who live by faith and Spirit will be able to discern when his time is at hand - they will be in tune to his Spirit.

I do not believe that Christ is coming today, or tomorrow. Before our Lord returns the household of God will go through intense refining of faith. That, I believe is what God has revealed to me. We will have many Peter-sifting type of experiences - when our self-assurance in is demolished. We will have our times of bitter weeping when we hear the "cock crow" and the Spirit bears down on us, and we realize that our faith and love is not nearly what we thought it was.

May we all invite God do that work in us - as painful as it may be - so that when the fires are hotter, we will be able to stand our ground - in faith and persevere in love.

God’s calling all of us is the same as it was in Paul’s day.

… Let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate….

Therefore encourage one another and build each other up…” 1 Thes. 5:11

Be joyful always;
pray continually,
give thanks in all circumstances,

… do not put out the Spirit’s fire,
do not treat prophesies with contempt.
Test everything.
Hold on to the good.
Avoid every kind of evil.” 1 Thes. 5:16-22

Never tire of doing what is right.” 2 Thes. 3: 13

“Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life,
to mind your own business
and to work with your hands…

so that your DAILY life may win the RESPECT of outsiders…. “ 1Thes. 4:12


Diane

C
crsschk

I do not believe his return is imminent. I do not believe that he is coming today, or tomorrow. Why? Because he has not revealed it to me.

Hi Diane,

Hate to even pull this out of context and am guessing that this may not have came out as you intended ... But, that last part there is troubling, where do we ascribe to an idea that these things will be told us in advance and solitary? Isn't this the same trouble we have with the modern day prophetic forecasters or fortune tellers? It's not a pointed or accusatory question, just a concern.

R
roadsign

am guessing that this may not have came out as you intended

While you were posting this, I changed some words. Clearly, the parable of the ten virgins reveals that five were ready and waiting for the moment to arrive.

But Noah knew when the time had come for judgment, Abraham knew when God's judgment would fall on Sodom and Gomorah... When the day came God revealed it. In the same way I feel that when the time comes those who are walking with God will know. I could be wrong though.

Those who in the past picked out some year or day down the road obviously didn't get it from God. No one knows the day or hour.

EDIT: If we knew a return date down the road, I suspect that our faith would never become strong.


Diane

S
sermonindex

Thank you for this exposition.

“But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light.. I suspect that those who live by faith and Spirit will be able to discern when his time is at hand - they will be in tune to his Spirit.
I too noticed that verse in Thessalonians, which you quoted. Here is the whole section in the KJV.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For [b]yourselves[/b] [u]know perfectly[/u] that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when [b]they[/b] shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 [b]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief[/b].
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: [b]we are not of the night, nor of darkness[/b].
6 [b]Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober[/b].

It is not a stretch to see what Paul is saying - that if we are [u]watching[/u] as we should (in prayer, and with the eyes of our discerning the signs the Lord foretold), we will not be surprised by His return.

I believe that Christ’s return is an unexpected surprise only for those who do not have faith – just as in the days of Noah.
Then you say this
Before our Lord returns the household of God will go through intense refining of faith. That, I believe is what God has revealed to me. We will have many Peter-sifting type of experiences - when our self-assurance in is demolished. We will have our times of bitter weeping when we hear the "cock crow" and the Spirit bears down on us, and [b]we realize that our faith and love is not nearly what we thought it was[/b].
I really want to challenge, ever so gently, the thought that 'our faith' can ever be sufficient for what we must believe into.

It may be my own past sin and weakness which forced me to call out to the Lord for [b]His faith[/b], but, I could not be where I am now - in peace with Him and at rest in my spirit - if I had depended on 'my' faith.

I notice you say 'faith and love'. I know these are closely linked, but, they are very different from each other, and a struggle with one, need not indicate a struggle with the other. We are uniquely called to our ministries.

Also, we are called to [b]the obedience of faith[/b].

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, [b]for obedience to [u]the[/u] faith[/b] among all nations, for his name:

Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations [b]for the obedience of faith[/b]:

Perhaps I had to face this shakiness very early on in my searching for contact with God, but I do never [i]let myself[/i] consider for a second, now, that [b]His faith[/b] will not accomplish all that He intends it to. (This is a discipline of thought.)

His faith is more than sufficient. I can believe that. I hold His faithfulness. I trust His faith. Maybe, if I have faith now, it is because He has given me His faith.... faith, of God.


As I've been reading the New Testament this year, one of the questions to which I sought an answer, was 'What sort of things pushed Jesus to the edge of His good naturedness?' That's when I began to notice His repeated exasperation with the [b]lack of faith[/b] in Israel.

Young Mark 11:22
And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith [b]of[/b] God;

It is not a surprise, therefore, that He exhorts His disciples to 'Hold (the) faith of God'. I found it immensely helpful to hear this point drawn out, once, in a sermon. You will find other allusions to 'the faith of Christ', in the New Testament. I hope this opens a door of hope in your thinking.

S
sermonindex

If Muslims and Christians are jumping for joy at the prospect of armmegeddon...can we blame the world for fearing and hating religion?

Mike quoting Amos 5:18 is right on. If these things are going to be taking place we ought to be living holy and sharing Christ with this dying world. Are we prepared to meet God ourselves with the work of our lifes? The more these things begin to happen the more I am desiring to be a actual representation of Christ's body on this earth, to be able to speak to people saying as Christ: "don't be afraid, just believe."

The church of Jesus Christ needs to take seriously the commitment to enter into warfare on our knees in prayer. I recommend people to watch this video for this concept of the only redemption america and christianity has to see the gospel spread and these things turn around:

The Power of Prayer (video) by Keith Daniel

S
sermonindex

for this concept of the only redemption america and christianity has to see the gospel spread [b]and these things turn around[/b]:
This is not the picture which I get, Greg, but, I know others believe they see it.

I would like to understand more. Can put some scripture to this hope?

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