The bible is NOT the Word of God

The Bible is NOT the Word of God. Upon hearing this, some people will become upset and/or concerned. Some will accuse me of promoting lies, or having a spirit of the Anti-Christ. I do understand why some will say such things as the bible has been widely believed by the Church as being the Word of God, though it is not. Before I am judged in this matter, all I ask of you is to open your heart and mind. Please let me plead my case, for I am doing so for Christ. This is what my Lord has asked of me and I know it will not be well received.

There is a great danger that has presented itself through the establishment of this lie by saying the bible is the Word of God. This danger does not present itself in the Church, for actually it has been beneficial for the Church to promote such. By saying the bible is the Word of God, the Church has been able to push the authority of the bible. There is no doubt the bible has authority granted by the Lord, however, the question of authority is not being addressed in this letter. All authority belongs to Christ whether the bible is the Word of God or not. Christ is Lord.

The danger this lie presents is this: unbelievers (and possibly some believers) are unsuspectedly pushed into idolatry, specifically bible worship. Calling the bible the Word of God is the equivalent of saying the bible is God. For true believers, this does not pose a threat, as they have already accepted Christ as Lord. For the lost, for seekers of God, the bible itself can become a stumbling block. They may believe the bible is the Word of God, and accept it as though it were God Himself. As such, they will have an entire faith based upon the bible and not on Christ Himself. What a dangerous place for any person to enter.

We know God is good, and that He would not allow any true seeker to remain lost. Even so, I believe it is the responsibility of the Church to uphold the truth, which is Christ. And so, here is my plea and testimony as Christ has shown me to deliberate before the Church. The bible is not the Word of God. Rather, the bible is a vessel by which the Word of God can come. All scripture is a testimony of the Word of God, of Christ, our Savior and Lord.

This is key. The bible is not the Word. Christ is the Word. The bible is a bearer of the Word, that is, a means by which the Word can come to us. As such, it is no wonder Christians have long confused this truth. Since the bible is a vessel by which the Word may come to us, we often think it is the Word of God. We read the bible and feel awakened by the Word that comes to us. Because of this, we think the bible itself is the Word when truly, the bible was just the vessel used by the Word.

It is quite obvious to unbelievers who read the bible and do not encounter the Word, that the bible has no life. Rather, it seems to be a confusing book of fanciful tales. They often think Christians are quite insane to place so much stock in a book, but also wonder if they should not as well. The Churches treatment of the bible as the Word of God has supported many other false religions in believing they could find God in the bible, and rather than through Christ. I was once a part of one of these religions who worshipped the bible like a God, but denied Christ His Lordship. Let it be known to all, the bible is only a vessel. This vessel may be filled with Christ, or it may be emptied of Christ in accord with God's Will. The Lord Christ is the Word of God, and He may choose to come unto whomever He wishes. He may also be denied by whoever should deny Him.

As established above, scripture does have authority. This authority does not come from the writings alone, but from God who grants authority. Just as the apostles were given authority by Christ, so does scripture have authority that cannot be broken. This comes from above. However, this authority is not greater than Christ, and it certainly cannot be manipulated by any person or lawyer in order to justify any sin.

With the above said, I wish to explore this issue in the bible and plead my case to you in accord with the Will of the Lord. For the purpose of this discussion, I will use the New American Standard bible.

John 10:35
"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Many people will be quick to point out that the word "scripture" and "word of God" are paralleled in this verse. However, there is another word included that many don't take into consideration that adds emphasis on a particular characteristic of scripture. It is this word "came." This word little word may seem insignificant, however, it is a theme carried throughout the entire bible. In over 98 verses, the phrase "the Word of the Lord came" appears in the New American Standard bible. This phrase appears over 93 times in the King James version. The Word does not just speak, it comes.

The word "came" suggests a personification of the Word of God, meaning that the Word of God is not just something that comes from God, the Word is a person. If God were speaking to a person directly, the bible would say, "The Lord said..." However, in these passages it says, "the Word of the Lord came saying," as though the Word was a person speaking.

This, of course, is not a new notion for Christians. The first chapter of the gospel of John establishes that the "Word became flesh." Jesus Christ is the Word of God. We know Jesus Christ is a person. The Lord comes to all Christians and saves them. Before Christ was born as a man on earth, He came to prophets in times past. These scriptures speak well of this. "The Word of the Lord came" which means Jesus came to old testament prophets. These prophets recorded what they heard and saw in what we now call the bible.

If you notice, the Lord comes to people speaking. He comes giving a message that is to be delivered. Only on a few rare occasions has God spoke Himself directly. These occasions are told about in the bible, but who can say, "God has spoke directly to me?" On many occasions, God sends a messenger, a human being or angel, to speak on His behalf. He gives them the words to say, and they speak His Word.

These prophets or apostles have experienced the Lord first hand. They have a real life experience with the Word of God. As it says, "The Word of the Lord came." The Word came to these people. They have encountered the Word of the Lord and have met His person. They have heard His command. They then have written this experience down in accord with God's Will. The Lord has chosen men and women who have abandoned themselves to Him, so that they will do exactly as He commands. As such, these writers have written as God has commanded them.

Even still, what was written, was not the Word of God, but rather a testimony of the Word. The Word of God is a person. A person can be written about, however, what we have is a story of the person. No person can never know another person unless he or she has experienced the person in reality. Reading a written document of someone does not mean you have actually met him in truth. For example, I may have read a great many books about Abraham Lincoln, but do I really know him? I cannot know Abraham unless I meet him in person. LIkewise, no person can know the Word of God just by reading about Him. They must meet the real person, Jesus Christ, in order to truly know Him in truth.

Each of the writers of scripture recorded a personal testimony of the Word of God. The Word came to them, and they wrote what they saw and heard. By this, the writer has become a vessel of the Word through which others can hear about the Word. The written text, scripture, is also a vessel by which this Word can come. Scripture is a written testimony of the Word.

The word "testimony" appears 107 times in the New American Standard bible and 75 times in the King James version of the bible. One key document spoken about in the bible is the ten commandments. This document is most unique of all documents as this document was written by the very hand of God. Of all the texts we have throughout history, none is like this. Every other time, there has been some human writer who wrote down the words. This one document, however, was written by the hand of God Himself.

Of all the writings we have, would you not think that the ten commandments would be called "The Word of God." Even with this document, the Lord calls it a testimony. There are many scriptures where the Lord refers to the ten commandments as a testimony. The following is one such:

Exodus 34:29
It came about when Moses was coming down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the testimony {were} in Moses' hand as he was coming down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because of his speaking with Him.

The stone tablets that Moses held in His hand were called a "testimony." The tablets were stone. The commandments written on the tablets have no power or authority apart from God who wrote them. As such, they were called a testimony because they testified to God. They spoke of the nature and person of God.

The commandments, not the words or tablets, are the Word of the Lord. They cannot be broken. No person can change the Word of the Lord. The Word of the Lord was recorded on the tablets as a testimony. As such, the tablets are a vessel by which the Word of the Lord can come. The tablets are a testimony. The commandments are the Word. As shown above, the Word of God is a person. These commandments tell of the person of God. They are the person of God. God is Holy, and this is made manifest in His Word.

This concept may be a difficult one to grasp because it is a bit abstract. The best way I can describe it is like this. Let us say you were commissioned by God to preach the Word of God. The Lord commanded you to go out and send a warning. You are the vessel God has chosen to deliver His Word. The Lord has come to you, and put His Word on your tongue. You then go out and preach to the nations. You are preaching the Word of the Lord as it was given unto you telling it exactly as you heard and saw. Does this mean you are the Word? No, you are not the Word. You are merely a vessel that the Lord is using. Is your words the very words of God? No, they are your words. The words you speak are a testimony of the Lord's Word. You are telling what you saw and heard. However, within this testimony, within you, is the Word of the Lord. And so, it will proceed forth from you. The Word of the Lord will either be accepted or rejected. If it is accepted, then the Word of the Lord will have power over the person who accepts it. The Word will be alive in that person.

The same is true of the bible. The bible is a vessel by which the Word of the Lord may come through. The bible is a testimony of the Word. Through this testimony, a person may come to accept the Word. When this happens, the Word of God enters into that person. As such, the Word is in them, and the bible then becomes affirmed. The bible becomes true for a person, when truth Himself enters into that person.

2 Samuel 23:2
The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue.

As such, based upon this, we can see the words of Paul made true. Scripture is inspired of God. Scripture is God-breathed. Scripture is the testimony of the Word as given by the Lord. As such, Jesus is spoke about in the bible, but Jesus is not actually in the bible. The bible is inspired of God, having come from God through men, however, the bible is not God. Jesus Christ, the Word, is God. We worship Jesus. The words of Jesus are the words of God. Jesus is the Son of God.

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

We do not worship the bible, or seek to obey the bible in and of itself. The bible is a written testimony of Jesus, written by our fellow brethren. We seek to obey the Word of the Lord. We seek to obey Christ. We worship God by keeping His commandments in our heart. We worship God by keeping Christ in our heart. With Christ inside of us, we are a vessel by which the Word can come. We are a living testimony of Christ.

However, there are people who think that the bible is the Word of God. They seek to obey the bible in order to worship God. They seek to obey the bible as the Word of God. This is a dangerous proposition. The bible is not the Word of God. The bible is the testimony to the Word. The bible should lead us to Jesus, in order that we may be saved by Christ. The bible should not be our salvation. Christ is our salvation, and Christ is our Lord.

I am deeply concerned about this matter. More and more I am seeing signs and billboards promoting this lie. More and more Churches are pushing people toward the bible rather than toward Christ. I have seen billboards and signs that hold the bible in higher esteem than Christ.

I am also concerned for the Church who in many cases is placing more faith in the bible than in Christ. Indeed, the bible was given to us as a guide. The bible is good for testing and edification. The bible affirms our faith.

However, each believer should have a personal testimony of Christ. The entire Church should be able to share these testimonies and be strengthened in unity by them. There is one testimony of Christ as given by the Holy Spirit through all believers. The bible is a collection of testimonies, and we can compare and contrast this with each of our own. We can use the bible to test and see if they agree because we know God is not an author of lies or conflict.

However, the bible is not our only source of testing. We are a body of believers who need each other. We have replaced a proper relationship with one another with a deep reliance on the scripture. We have replaced Christ in us, with Christ in the bible.

I am concerned for seekers. I am concerned they will not see Christ in us, because we push them toward the bible. I am concerned they will not find body of Christ in the world, because we force the bible upon them. The Church is the body of Christ on earth. We need to step up and speak the Word of God and obey our Lord Christ in word and action.

I pray for all of you my brothers and sisters to consider this message I am sharing with you. Please do not discard this message without prayer and consideration. The Lord has given me this testimony to share with you that we may draw nearer to Christ.

I submit this to you in love and in Christ.

May Christ be our Lord and may His Kingdom reign,

Blake

What kind of cereal did you eat this morning?

:-P :-?

Haha...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Dear Brother,

As the Lord liveth I truly appreciate you spending so much of thy God given time to, out of love I presume, share your advice in this matter. I regret that I do not an equal amount of time to sacrifice to give you a sufficient response-- but what little I do have I offer you. I say this most humbly brother, but your title is a little miss-leading. There is no argument that can be stated to say that the bible is not God's word. I believe what you were intending was that the bible is not our manifested Christ--true--when I die there won't be a burgundy KJV sitting on the great white throne commanding me to give an account of my life. However, Christ IS the bible. To say that he is not would be to contradict when our Lord said before the religious people in his day "this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing". No doubt this topic is an interesting play on words, but let us not focus on the order of words dear brother, but the order of concepts. When the Holy Ghost spake by peter saying "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The Bible is infallible, inerrant, and I argue it is the only perfect thing in this fallen world :) But I get your point, it is NOT God per say, as in the physical. But it is God word for word, and every word you read from cover to cover is Christ. He is the word, He speaks the Word, and he preserves the word. So Dear brother I completely heartily agree with you when you said we should not worship the bible, --of course! Why worship the command when we can worship the commander? You are wise indeed to bless us, thy family members, with such profitable advice. However, couldn't we say brother that we would not know how to worship God lest his word instructed us? I know nothing printed is of the godhead, but I also hath read "the letter killeth", and it is God himself that quickens what I read. Again, thank you for such a knowledgeable post, I pray it helps whom our Lord sees good to teach.
May we Grow in grace together in Christ....

;-) ;-)

all scripture is Godbreathed.....

Jesus is the word.

we do not worship the book made by hands....but rather we worhip the One who gave us the word.

people can make the church building into and idol..so shall we knock down all church's? people make the pulpit into an idol shall we knock down all pulpits???

surely not.....i did not read your enitire post...and i did not want to i have read nonsense before but that is like icing on the cake.....

ciao

Actually it is the "Inspired" Word of God and I am running with that.All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16)

bro Stever
i think bro blake is referring to how Jesus Christ is the Word of God (with the capital W) while the bible is the word of God (small w) and the 2 are different. i don't think bro blake doubts that the bible is the word of God.

[i] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[/i]Joh 5:39

Seem to recall we have traveled this road before Blake. What it boils down to is this is not necessary and I wonder if you have considered what manner of confusion you can be adding by this. You wouldn't have even the first understanding of what you are attempting to begin to say without the scriptures.

Fully realizing what in part you are trying to state it only will amount to circular reasoning in this manner. If you look at, this is circular reasoning that you are doing. If one is reading, studying, absorbing and becoming that which is written in the Bible (The scriptures), is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and taught by the same Holy Spirit, that person would not be worshiping a book, but the God and Savior expressed through it and in it.

It [i]is[/i] the Word of God, much more than a binding and wood pulp.

[b]Joh 5:39 -
Search the scriptures[/b] - The word translated “search” here means to “search diligently” or “search anxiously.” It was applied to miners, who search for precious metals - who look anxiously for the “bed” of the ore with an intensity or anxiety proportionate to “their sense” of the value of the metal. Compare the notes at Job_28:3. It is applied by Homer to a lioness robbed of her whelps, and who “searches” the plain to “trace out” the footsteps of the man who has robbed her. It is also applied by him to dogs tracing their game by searching them out by the scent of the foot. It means a diligent, faithful, anxious investigation The word may be either in the indicative or imperative mood. In our translation it is in the imperative, as if Jesus commanded them to search the Scriptures. Cyril, Erasmus, Beza, Bengel, Kuinoel, Tholuck, DeWette, and others, give it as in the indicative: Chrysostom, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wetstein, Stier, Alford, and others, regard it as in the imperative, or as a command. It is impossible to determine which is the true interpretation. Either of them makes good sense, and it is proper to use the passage in either signification. There is abundant evidence that the Jews did search the books of the Old Testament. It is equally clear that all people ought to do it.

[b]The scriptures[/b] - The writings or books of the Old Testament, for those were all the books of revelation that they then possessed.
In them ye think ye have eternal life - The meaning of this is: “Ye think that by studying the Scriptures you will obtain eternal life. You suppose that they teach the way to future blessedness, and that by diligently studying them you will attain it.” We see by this:

1.\tThat the Jews in the time of Jesus were expecting a future state.

2.\tThe Scriptures teach the way of life, and it is our duty to study them.

The Bereans are commended for searching the Scriptures Act_17:11; and Timothy is said from a child to have “known the holy scriptures, which are able to make us wise unto salvation,” 2Ti_3:15. Early life is the proper time to search the Bible, for they who seek the Lord early shall find him.

[b]They are they[/b] ... - They bear witness to the Messiah. They predict his coming, and the manner of his life and death, Isa_53:1-12; Dan_9:26-27, etc. See the notes at Luk_24:27.

Albert Barnes

However, there are people who think that the bible is the Word of God. They seek to obey the bible in order to worship God. They seek to obey the bible as the Word of God. This is a dangerous proposition. The bible is not the Word of God. The bible is the testimony to the Word. The bible should lead us to Jesus, in order that we may be saved by Christ. The bible should not be our salvation. Christ is our salvation, and Christ is our Lord.

[i]These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.[/i] Act 17:11

I am deeply concerned about this matter. More and more I am seeing signs and billboards promoting this lie. More and more Churches are pushing people toward the bible rather than toward Christ. I have seen billboards and signs that hold the bible in higher esteem than Christ.

To call it a "lie" is something you might want to reconsider, this is really a matter of perception and I think you are creating one where it doesn't exist. To say this does not happen, a higher and misapplied esteem for the "Bible" in itself as a means to an end, as a purely historical or scholarly piece of material to dissect and interpret at mans will and a thousand other heretical conjectures, there is no dispute there. But the way you are attempting this is to devalue the scriptures themselves even if you are trying to draw greater attention to the the Lord, [i][b]they are they which testify of me[/b][/i].

Have you ever done a thorough study of how the scriptures came together, the painstaking, exacting process of how the Old Testament was written, the history behind what we are so blessed to hold in our hands, the lives given and martyred so that you and I can even begin to postulate such thoughts? It's not meant to be pointed brother, but I believe you are greater misrepresenting that which you do not fully understand.

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
Luk 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
Luk 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

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Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

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2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(notice what precedes and includes in that context)

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

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93 instances of "[i]It is written[/i]"

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Unnecessary to list them all. The Lord Himself appealed, refered and in the ultimate sense is the Word made flesh, that is not in dispute.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

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Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

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[i]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.[/i] Heb 4:12,13

It is right here Blake where I would wish to concentrate and give you your due where not all is misunderstood. Even the proponents of the KJV "only" have to wrestle with the cutting aspect of the substance of this exacting passage. Not to single them out alone, there is a plethora of what is noted just here abroad in this day;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The cults, the legalist, the prosperity seeker, the proud in the heart, the high minded, the Pharisee, the conspiracy minded, fault finding mind, on and on it could go, even the very Devil himself [i][b]using[/b][/i] scripture, abusing scripture ...

But not coming under it, not submitting to it's cutting and dividing of the very substance of what we are. There is a certain ultimatum expressed in that passage that could be said to be all inclusive and if there is anything that it is to be boiled down into just one word ...

Honesty

That is requirement throughout scripture. Have been giving much thought of late to just this as it always comes full circle back to it. Reading of the "Law" straight on through, even before there were [i]law's[/i] (plural) this law has been in place. David in the Psalms spoke of it constantly and seemed to have in mind a variety of expression to state the same thing;

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
Psa 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
Psa 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

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Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

[b]And in his law[/b] - On his law, or his truth. “He doth meditate.” The word used here, הגה hâgâh, means properly to complain, to mutter; then, to speak; then, to utter in a low complaining voice, as is often done by a person in deep meditation; hence, in the usual sense, to meditate on anything; to think of it. So Jos_1:8 : “Thou shalt meditate therein (the law) day and night.” Psa_77:12 : “I meditate on all thy work.” Pro_15:28 : “the heart of the righteous meditateth what to answer.” The meaning here is, he thinks of it; he endeavors to understand its meaning; he has pleasure in reflecting on it. It is not a subject which he puts away from him, or in respect to which he is indifferent, but he keeps it before his mind, and has satisfaction in doing it.

[b]Day and night[/b] - That is, continually - as day and night constitute the whole of time. The meaning is:

(a) he does this habitually, or he intentionally forms the habit of meditating on divine truth, by disciplining his mind in order that he may do it;

(b) he takes time to do it - designedly setting apart suitable portions of each day, that, withdrawn from the cares of life, he may refresh his spirit by contemplating divine truth, or may become better acquainted with God, and with his duty to him, and may bring to bear upon his own soul more directly the truths pertaining to eternal realities;

(c) he does this in the intervals of business, the moments of leisure which he may have during the day - having thus an unfailing subject of reflection to which his mind readily reverts, and in which, amid the cares and toils of life, he finds relaxation and comfort; and

(d) he does it in the wakeful hours of night, when sick and tossed upon his bed, or when, for any other reason, his “eyes are held waking.” Psa_63:5-6 : “my soul shall be upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night-watches.” Psa_119:54 : “Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.” Compare Psa_119:23, Psa_119:43; Psa_143:5. It is probable that the psalmist had the injunction in his mind which is contained in Jos_1:8.

Albert Barnes
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Apologize for the length here, these are excerpts out of something that has been coming together in just recognizing what this [i]One Law[/i] is, in principle if you may. A earlier example from the Book of Job;

Job 22:22 Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.

[b]Job 22:22 - Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth[/b],.... Not the law of Moses; for it is a question whether that was as yet, or could come to the knowledge of Job; rather any doctrine, as the word signifies, any revelation of the mind and will of God, made unto the patriarchs in former times, and which was handed down from one to another, and was to be received as coming from the mouth of God, not as the word of man, but as the word of God; and as such to be received with meekness and reverence, with readiness, cheerfulness, and gladness; and not only to be attended to but obeyed:

[b]and lay up his words in thine heart:[/b] as a rich treasure, very valuable, and preferable to gold, silver, and precious stones, laid up in chests and cabinets because of their value, and that they might not be lost, but be preserved safe and sure, and that they might be come at, and made use of on proper occasions; as the words of God and doctrines of the Scriptures may be, against the temptations of Satan, the lusts of the flesh, and for the instruction of ourselves and others; and therefore should be retained in our minds, hid in our hearts, and dwell richly in us; and, unless they are in the heart, and have a place there, they will be of little avail to have them in the head or on the tongue; but if they come with power into the heart, and have a place there, they work effectually, and influence the life and conversation: these Job had, and had a great value for them; see Job_6:10.

John Gill

Keeping all this in mind and in heart, this matter of honesty and appealing back to the passage in Hebrew's the question raised in my mind is what doesn't fit under it?

What is repentance but a turning back to this.
What is correction and our rebelling against it
but a lack thereof?
What is sin but dishonesty ... ultimately.
What is meant by [i]In spirit and in truth[/i]?

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him [b]must[/b] worship him in spirit and in truth.

We tend to close our ears to that which we prefer not to deal with, run off on tangents to peripheral matters to busy ourselves away from dealing with heart cuttings, over expound on areas of personal preference and a whole host of things that can be nothing more than distractions at times.

I have gone on long enough here. The facts are that the opposite of what you Blake have stated here is the need of the day. Christianity has become by and large a commodity to be bought and sold, crafted to taste, applied at will (of man) and to buttress you underlying sentiment, yes abused and worshiped for all the wrong reasons in many instances, but let that fault be applied where it belongs on mere men who refuse to become honest in heart, not because the [i]"Bible is not the Word of God"[/i]. The fact remains that it is because of the Biblical illiteracy rate is not only high in understanding of the mind but a lack of humility and soberness as it is approached prayerfully and reverently in the very core of our being.

The Word of God, [i]is[/i].

Bro. Stever

I agree with Bro. Krispy on the tone of your reply. I feel it was somewhat off balance, though I also agree with you that this is not word from GOD but a trick from Lucifer himself. Still we must be ever mindful of our tongues Brothers.

The Word (the Bible) [i]IS[/i] GOD, therefore the Bible (the Word) [i]IS[/i] the [i]word of[/i] GOD. As is Christ (the Bible, the Word) GOD.

Bless you though Bro. Blake for bringing this to the forums. It has been tested among the Brothers and Sisters.

In HIS Love,
Scroggins

I don't know of anything in the Bible that did not oringinate from God. Does anyone else? If the Bible is a reflection of the character of God and His dealings with man, why shouldn't it be called "God's Word" if it oringinated from His Spirit?

I do know some men fall into the folly of just head knowledge of theology. They will study to make sure all their theology is "correct" and can't be disputed, not out of a love for God, but out of pride. They do not want to be shown they are wrong. That is a trap you can fall into. It's no different than a pridefull scientist that want's his theories to be precise, so he won't be confounded by others.

But praise God for these verses!

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Isa 50:7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

The rebuke to Blake was in love, because if brother Blake does not repent and seek forgiveness, he could be lost forever. At the present time he is in grave error.

Yes Bro. Stever, that may very well be true. But remember the process in place for rebuking. Lets not make this thread a "rebuking fest" on Bro. Blake. But rather lets bless Bro. Blake. Because in his current state, I believe, he of all people may just need it. And whats more is the simple fact that he did bring it here to be tested. Among us Brothers and Sisters.

Whether he is oppressed by demonic forces (that attack the train of thought and basis of belief) or not, I cannot say for sure, and none of us really can but Bro. Blake himself.

lets continue to speak loving words in balance with the rebuking of bad doctrine. Public rebuking is quite a difficult task. So I feel it must only be a last course of action. All I can say further is that we must watch our words closely and speak them ever mindful of our tongues and the evil that dwells on them.

In short Bro. Stever, your rebuking was what I believe to have been necessary. But still, I pray that you put just a tad more emphasis on the grace. (as I am sure you will)

Lets hope that this doctrine that Bro. Blake has brought to us has not been presented to a non-believer or young in faith. This could be just as damaging, if not more, than that of the Da Vinci Code or any other blasphemous theory/doctrine. Regardless of its efforts or intent. The road to hell is paved with "good" intentions.

In Christ's Love,
Scroggins

Stver, believe me, I would rebuke you! You can be sure of that. But I would not punch you in the face in the process. At least not at first...

Amen.

Not at first.

:-P

In all honesty ...

I disagree.

Just as unecessary is the jumping to conclussions about motives and intent of our brother here. To point out the wrong is needed, to go beyond that to accusations of 'where his source' is coming from is conjecture and speculation. Seems ill advised to be leveling such a heavy charge, what are the few instances in scripture we have that would support this in this case?

If we were to read between the lines and be honest about it his point isn't entirely lost, the manner of how it was expressed is where there is concern and rightfully.

But his sentiments to the idea that many do indeed either hide behind the Bible, use it as a weapon to weild at their own discretion, a sheild to hide their real lives from (paradoxically), even to make an idol of it while missing the very life giving and soul ratifying understanding that it is...

There is the great danger of mis-expression that is always evident here, just as their is always the muddying problems we have as failable human beings, our thoughts mixed up with the Lords thought's that we understand inwardly. It is very much why personaly I am reticent to make the variable expression; "The Lord told me...". To let it escape the lip gate brings the sense of finality with it, something that seems missing in large by many of our modern day prophets, the seemingly little concern for those things that are said to be in His Name.

Nothing is being compromissed here either way, it is dangerous to let our emotions rule or overrule in these important matters, while at the same time not misappropriating a brother whose only offense may be that of misunderstanding or misapplication. To be sure it is periously close, borderline heresy, but still the bordeline nonetheless.

This verse came to mind earlier;

The high priest then asked Jesus about His disciples and His doctrine.

Jesus answered him, “I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing. Why do you ask Me? Ask those who have heard Me what I said to them. Indeed they know what I said.”

And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, “Do You answer the high priest like that?”

Jesus answered him, [i]“If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?”[/i]

John 18:19-23

It is a question for our hearts as well.

Agreed Bro.

I believe I stated in some other thread a while back that many times I think we forget that what we must look for is not the suggested material... but rather the heart behind that material.

Not a single person can say Bro. Blake is oppressed or anything of the sort. As I stated before only Bro. Blake can attest to that. The only thing we can say is that his idea, at the just of it, if understood only for that, is to be rebuked. Not Bro. Blake per se, but this ideology.

We must Bless Bro. Blake and lift him up if he is in the wrong, and if we misunderstand, we must beg him forgive for the ignorance.

Bless you Bro. Blake, keep seeking the heart of GOD.

The example above does really not apply here. The example should be directed to one Christian that has found grave doctrinal error in a brother (another Christian). How would that situation be addressed in the New Testament?

Would really appreciate a thoughtful, documented answer.

You are correct, by way of application and thinking on this again I missed something there. To attempt to unravel it now would be just more confussing.

I understand where you are coming from but I also think you are splitting hairs. Your exposition could have been more succinct and therefore more profitable to the readers.

Just something else to add, brother. The Bible as we have it is His written revealed will. The scriptures are inspired by God. To coin your blog as "The bible is NOT the word of God" puts you in a suspect position and breeds confusion.

I also will add and agree with you that the Bible is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end and that is God Himself. I agree that we must be aware of Bible worship. We must be worshippers of God. However, scripture is one of the safeguards of God towards authentic Christian experience.

I am also aware that there have been countless other saints such as Enoch, Noah, and Abraham who had no Bible but were reputed to have walked with God. It all comes down to the revelation that God has given us and how we walk in that light.

One in Christ
grod95

Dear all,

I have been away on vacation, and though I have a quick minute to post, I will not be able to adequately read everyone's responses for another 10 days at least.

I do want to make something clear. By saying the bible is NOT the Word of God, I am NOT saying the bible is untrustworthy. The bible is inspired of God and is good for testing doctrines. However, just because this is true, does not make it the Word of God.

I am a servant of Christ, saved by His grace, annointed by His sovereignty. Does that make me the Word of God? Christ has used me to speak to countless people, few of which were saved by my words. Does that make me the Word of God? Does that make my words, the words of God?

And yet, this is what so many people do with the bible. They call it the Word of God, and worship it as their Lord.

Indeed, in moments when the Lord has used me as His vessel, my words were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Christ gave me the words to say, just as it is recorded in scripture. However, this does not make my words the very words of God.

Rather, the only person who ever lived whose words were declared as being the very words of God was Jesus alone. Who else can it be said of such a thing?

And I ask you, what bible has been written by the hand of Christ? What gospel was recorded by His very hand?

We do not have anything written by the very hand of God besides the ten commandments. We have a testimony of what have seen and heard. Do you not see who important it is we have four gospels? Do you think four would be needed if God had written them Himself? Would not one be enough? These are testimonies of Christ. The more testimonies we have, the more God is glorified. Christ is proven by each one.

And what should we say of living testimonies? What do we say of all that Christ does in the lives of each believer? Are these to be discarded? Are they not worthy? Of course they are. We are a body of believers. We have each other to encourage and lift in faith. Did not the early Church give themselves to each other in love? We don't love one another. We live by the book. We would sooner give someone a bible, then sacrifice our possessions or time to help a person in need. Did Christ die for the bible? Or did He die for us?

I have heard it said that this is such a small matter. Why does it matter? Isn't it better that people believe the bible is the Word of God?

Why will you not listen? People's lives are at stake here. Do you not go forth and share the gospel? Do you not take it seriously when people proclaim blasphemy against Christ? And yet you say this is not a serious matter.

Shall we in the Church allow this idolatry to continue? Should we let it go so long as it serves our needs? Would Christ be pleased with this?

And what happens when the bible is taken away? What happens when the Church no longer has scripture? All we have is the Church, the body of Christ on earth by which to help one another. What will you do then? Will you lose faith?

This is a most serious matter. The Church must keep her faith in her husband. He is the one she will one day marry. Christ is King. Christ is the Word of God. The bible is not.

In Christ,

Blake

[i]And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.[/i] Mar 11:17

[u]"It is written"[/u]

93 instances.
A sampling;

And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts. But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Luk 7:24-27

Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[u]"Write"[/u]

82 Instances:

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

2Co 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write;
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira
write;
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; [i]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[/i] Heb 4:12

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[u]"Doctrine"[/u]

50 Instances:

Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Mat 7:28,29

Mat 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Mar 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (*All of this chapter)

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[b] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [u]even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ[/u], and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;[/b] 1Ti 6:3

[b] All scripture is given by inspiration of God[/b], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:16

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come [u]when they will not endure[/u] sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[u]"Scriptures"[/u]

21 instances;

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20-21

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luk 24:25-27

And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? Luk 24:32

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:14-17

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But ye have not so learned Christ;
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: Eph 4:20,21

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Speech written, recorded, heard, absorbed, preached, exhorted, spoken. However you wish to state it, it is Gods word and the Word of God and the Word made flesh.

Mix up the order anyway you choose it is all revelation that has been revealed and recorded, appealed to and IS the Word of God. It is indeed hair splitting that you are doing here and very, very dangerous. It is not mere doctrine or [i]good for[/i] merely that. The Bible is 'cannonised' on one principle alone and that is it's character as well as it's cohesion to it's own revelation. "Scripture interpt's scripture" is not some fanicful, theological high mindedness, but fact. The books that were left out were not by whimsy or vote or opinions of mere men alone. Whatever is displaced has no place against that which has been put in place.

Study it out yourself and reconsider what it is you are promoting here. Take special note of just how it is that cult's are developed, it is always at some point of departure from that which [i]Is written[/i].

It seems brother Beenblake has more of an issue with definition of terms rather than with the Bible itself.

And He does address an issue which is genuine. That is that the Bible itself can become a substitute for the Lord Himself.

As the Lord Himself said to the pharasee's, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal Life but it is they that testify of Me and you will not come to Me that you may have life."

It must be observed however that in this passage the Lord did not undermine the authority of scripture, but rather pointed out the blindness and unwillingness on the part of the Pharasees to see it's revelation and to embrace it.

What the Lord spoke here says that the scriptures testify of Him and they will not come to Him that they may have life.

The Apostle Paul spoke to Timothy how that from his youth he was taught the sacred scriptures which are able to lead one to a knowlege of salvation which is through faith in Jesus Christ and follows with the well known statement that "all scripture is God breathed and profitable for doctrine... etc."

What is sure is the scriptures self testimony of it's divine origination and it's authority. But what it reveals conserning itself is that it testifies and reveals the living Christ. And it is this Living crucified and resurrected Christ who is our salvation.

And the poiint made by both the Lord and the apostles is that the function of the scripture is not to impart Life in and of itself but rather to reveal and impart Life in the Son of God whom it reveals and testifies to.

It is quite possible to use the Bible in an unscriptural way as a book of rules, of regulations, of requirements, and to pound this upon people as "the Word of God" when in fact the function of the scriptures is to reveal Christ in whom is Eternal Life.

Speaking of the Jews, the Apostle Paul in 2 cor. 3 says that to this day at the reading of Moses a veil lies over their hearts. But whenever their heart turns to the Lord the veil is removed and we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit.

Our need is not to disregard the scriptures, but rather to turn our heart to the Lord and apply to Him that the veils may be removed from our heart that we can see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. In this way the Scriptures become Life and light to us revealing the Living crucified and resurrected Christ for us to enjoy, to partake of, to experience, to live by.

Graftedbranch

I agree that we might want to be slow to "jump to conclusions" or in the writing of such harsh verbal rebukes (unless completely justified). Before we go around "rebuking in love" (which is often neither a real rebuke nor done in true love) those that simply disagree with us, perhaps we should consider the following.

I imagine that it would be difficult to find any two believers here (or in any fellowship) that totally agree on a given matter. While we mostly agree on what is important (the core doctrines of believers), we all hold to other beliefs and doctrines that are suspect to one another. We must be careful not to slay one another with our words, and by doing so, believe that we are doing God a favor.

While I do not agree with Stever on his [i]KJV-only[/i] beliefs, I do prefer the KJV as the best translation made from the Textus Receptus. But I also respect the NIV as a serious and faithful translation taken from other source texts. But does such a difference in conclusion afford me the right to consider Stever "[i]deceived[/i]?" Or does it allow Stever the right to consider me "[i]deceived[/i]?" Of course not! I am totally entitled to my own opinion about any matter of faith, belief or doctrine -- as long as it does not openly contradict the Scriptures and as long as I truly seek this matter out through much prayer and study.

The problem that often occurs on SermonIndex is that we are often so completely (and sometimes rightfully or prematurely) convinced that we are right in all matters of belief, that we are willing to consider anyone that does not agree with us as "deceived." There are so many doctrinal arguments that become heated. One person believes in [i]KJV-only[/i], the other doesn't. One person believes in "once saved/always saved" (or something to that effect), and another doesn't. One person believes that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues, and another doesn't. One person believes in a pre-trib rapture, and another believes post-trib. One person believes that a woman can preach to men, while another believes that she should sit on a pew with her mouth shut and head covered with a cloth. Such a list, of course, could go on and on. Too often, we are too willing to declare someone a heretic for disagreeing with our particular established belief. We must be careful to love and respect the believer -- even if we do not necessarily totally agree with what he believes.

Yes, there are deceivers in this world. And yes, there are many that are deceived. But the bulk of the arguments made by believers in the SermonIndex forums are not about absolute, undeniable truths. Rather, they are arguments about our (sometimes petty) doctrinal differences. We must be very careful before we state "God told me..." to a fellow believer (or unbeliever for that matter).

How should we discuss doctrinal differences? We should use Philippians chapter 2 as our guide:

3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

:-)

i feel sometimes people make things more complicated then they have to.

Jesus is god.... Gods word are in the bible...the bible is gods word...

now we can twist it and turn it...but if tou want to know what jesus said and did...you read his word............the bible.

christian

[b]Psalm 138:2[/b] [color=990000] I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: [b]for thou hast magnified thy word[/color]Commandment [color=990000]above and/or according to all thy name.[/b][/color]Honor, Authority, Character

In the septuagent, the word for "name" is LOGOS which is the same greek word used in John 1:1.

This psalm in not refering to the WORD that was GOD and is GOD but His revieled word that we call the bible.

[b]Word[/b] H565 אמרה ,אמרה 'imrâh, 'emrâh, im-raw',
em-raw':
The second form is the feminine of H561, and meaning the same: - commandment, speech, [b]word[/b].

[b]Name[/b]: H8034 שׁם shêm, shame:
A primitive word (perhaps rather from H7760 through the idea of definite and conspicuous position; compare H8064); an appellation, as a mark or memorial of individuality; by implication honor, authority, character: - + base, [in-] fame [-ous], [/b]name (-d), renown, report.

I agree that The book is not Jesus(the Word made flesh) as you are saying but, the Bible is literaly the word of God.

As we say in an oath, "you have my word on it".
And
"Your word is only as good as your name."

Your name is who you are, it represents you.

The bible represents God.

I have nothing new to say about this post, but the scripture says that God is not the author of confusion, 1 Cor 14v33. And this post is confusing. Who would want to cause confusion among the body of Christ other than the enemy of Christ? He has caused people to question God's word ever since the garden of Eden, has God said?
And it has worked good for 6,000 years so why change tactics now? He has done it more recently with the Da Vinci code and no doubt other plans are on his satanic way. I reject wholly the statement that the Bible is not the word of God, irrespective of who wants to dialogue and reason with the said statement. We don't need to pray for discernment concerning this. It's too obvious. It is total heresey. Let's keep praying and reading the Word in these last days. We need too.

enid wrote:

Who would want to cause confusion among the body of Christ other than the enemy of Christ? He has caused people to question God's word ever since the garden of Eden, has God said?

I remember falling inti KJV onlyicsm and I sarted to doubt all Bible vesions including the KJV, I started to study greek so I would be able to read the origenal greek. But then I found that there was so many diferent greek texts and then I was starting to wounder if I would ever know the true WORD of GOD.

I finaly settled that all versions are ok.

By Gertrude Grace Sanborn
(1904-2988)

Gertrude lived a long time (-: .

Graftedbranch

The Bible

“Majestic, eternal, immutable BOOK,
Inspired, inerrant, complete.
The Light of my path as I walk on life’s way,
The Guide and the Lamp to my feet.

It’s writings are Holy and verbally true,
The unalterable Statue of Light,
For profit, for doctrine, for correction, reproof,
Infallible Guide to the Right.

My Treasure, my Comfort, my Help, and my Stay,
Incomparable, Measure and Rod,
Each page is replete with its textural proof,
The Bible, the exact WORD OF GOD!

By Gertrude Grace Sanborn

Here is a question for thought.

Consider the above quote and ask:

Could this be honestly quoted by a pharasee?

Where is Christ mentioned?

Could this not be the creed of the legalist also?

Could we not hold this Creed, have "correct doctrine" and yet be void of Christ?

Surely the Bible is all these things but not to us without Christ as our indwelling Life. The Bible to us without the indwelling Spirit is death. It kills us. But the Bible with the Spirit within us is Life and Light to us.

"Ye search the Scriptures because in them you think you have eternal Life but it is they that testify of Me and you will not come to Me that you may have Life"

"The Letter Kills but the Spirit gives Life"

We can hold to the letter of the Bible, contend for it, condemn those who deny it, and hold in contempt those who do not measure up to our understanding of it. And we can do all this with a wrong spirit deviod of Christ.

"To the messenger of the church in Ephesus write...I know your works and your labor and your endurance and that you cannot bear evil men; and you have tried those who call themselves apostles and are not... But I have one thing against you, that you have left your first love. Rmember therefore from where you have fallen and repent."

Without love for Christ, all our correctness is worthless. And without the Spirit there is no revelation of Christ and without revealion of Christ there can be no love for Christ.

And we must not confuse zeal for the Bible or doctrine as Love for Christ. Saul of Tarses was full of zeal for the Bible (as to the law? Found blameless). Full of zeal for his religion (as to zeal? A persecuter of the church). But void of love for Christ until He met the living Christ on the road to Demascus.

Graftedbranch

Dear All,

I don't have time to write responses to everyone just yet. I intend to do so. There are a few that stood out I want to address.

As the Lord Himself said to the pharasee's, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal Life but it is they that testify of Me and you will not come to Me that you may have life."

Graftedbranc has said it well. The bible is slowly replacing Christ.

now we can twist it and turn it...but if tou want to know what jesus said and did...you read his word............the bible.

And when you enter Heaven are you going to be justified by what the bible says, or by Christ? Will you argue with God using scripture, or will you stand firm on what Christ did on the cross?

The bible was not written by Christ. The bible was written by witnesses. The words written in the four gospels are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Truly, the message of Christ was preserved, but words are not the exact words of Christ. They are not the words of God. They are the words of God passed through another person. This changes everything. This means that the bible is not the Word of God. Instead, it is a testimony to the Word of God.

I know people think I am arguing over semantics, but this is not an issue of semantics. The difference is immense. If you say "the bible is the Word of God" then you are saying the bible is God. It is true that God's Word will stand forever. God's Word is full of living power. This is speaking of Jesus Christ, not of the bible which is a record of Jesus. The bible is a testimony that testifies to Christ.

The Church needs to stop worshipping the bible, and turn to Christ. He is calling out to His bride, but she will not listen.

I will write more when I have time,
In Christ,
Blake

Perhaps a better title to this thread could of been.....

"The NIV is NOT the word of God"......

Then i would agree......haha

The (NIV) stands for the following.....

Never. Issues. Victory

Newly. Invented. Version

Nothing. In. Version

Hi W_D_J_D...

Actually, "NIV" stands for "New International Version."

:-)

And when you enter Heaven are you going to be justified by what the bible says, or by Christ? Will you argue with God using scripture, or will you stand firm on what Christ did on the cross?

We are justified because of what the scripture says. What kind of christ on the cross do you have without the scriptures?

If you say "the bible is the Word of God" then you are saying the bible is God.

Dear Blake,

I think this may well sum up the problem right here. That is not what anyone is saying nor implying, it is a notion you are implying on others. That does again not take away from the bottom line argument you are attempting to convey, that you started out from at the outset.

Would say the majority here has not been lost to your point, but it is semantics and really unnecessary other than to the spiritual 'lawyer' if you will and maybe that is your point just as well.

Ultimately your argument is also with Christ as well as He Himself appealed constantly to [i]it is written[/i] if not directly, by inference, by parable, to the devil himself, to the Pharisee, to the Scribe, to us. What you are intimating here is dangerous because you are attempting to make a dividing line, a divorcing by way of being overly didactic, making a mountain out of a mole hill.

They are not the words of God. They are the words of God passed through another person.

Which means that they are then ... ?

No need to bring forth all the scriptures again and I think there is much here that demands an answer as you have stated you will reply to. To turn this around a bit and look at it from the perspective of those who are decidedly against the manner you are using here... Look at it from this perspective, what doubt's might you be implanting in the minds of the new believer? Do we not already have much of a problem with version and translation issues casting all kinds of doubt upon the same?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The Bible:

John (AMP)
1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.(A)

(KJV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Rev. 19 (AMP)
10Then I fell prostrate at his feet to worship (to pay divine honors) to him, but he [restrained me] and said, Refrain! [You must not do that!] I am [only] another servant with you and your brethren who have [accepted and hold] the testimony borne by Jesus. Worship God! For the substance (essence) of the truth revealed by Jesus is the spirit of all prophecy [the vital breath, the inspiration of all inspired preaching and interpretation of the divine will and purpose, including both mine and yours].

(KJV)
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The Word is GOD, the Holy Spirit is GOD, Christ is GOD, but we are commanded not to worship Word, Holy Spirit, or even Christ, but [b]worship GOD[/b] [u]through the Word[/u], [u]through the Holy Spirit[/u] and [u]through Christ[/u], the manifestations of GOD.

Even though the Bible is the Word of GOD and is also Christ, which is also GOD, therefore stating that the Word is GOD. You do not worship the Word, you do not worship Christ, you do not worship the Holy Spirit, but you [b]worship GOD.[/b]

Dear brother Sean Hobson,

Christ IS the bible

Do you know who Abraham Lincoln is? I am sure you have read about him. You might even say that you know him. You probably have heard many things about him, and may have even read many books about him. But, do you really know Abraham Lincoln as a friend and lover? Have you ever met Abraham Lincoln? Have you ever spent time with him?

Jesus Christ is NOT the bible. There is in fact a living God who dwells in the Heavens apart from this book. The bible is a testimony of Jesus Christ. It is a collection of stories about Him. There is so much more to be had than just reading the bible.

The true and living God wants to have an active relationship with humans. If you say you know Jesus Christ because you have read about Him in the bible, or that Jesus Christ is the bible, then you really don't know Him at all. Jesus is alive here and now. He is a Spirit who wishes to dwell inside of you. Jesus is God. The bible tells some things about Him, but not everything. You can have a real relationship with interaction apart from the bible.

You don't need the bible to learn about Christ. There are many testimonies besides for the bible that proclaim Christ. I can share you my own testimony of how I met Christ in person, and was transformed by His grace. The bible did not play a role in this. I had read the bible my entire life and it did nothing for me. Christ, the real and living God, came to me and I was transformed. This is not just my story, but the story of many others.

There is a real living God in Heaven who wants to reveal His true person to you, and to everyone. He wants to have a real relationship. If you only know Jesus because of the bible, then I challenge you to seek Him out in life. Put down your bible and spend some time alone with God. Give your life over unto prayer and fasting, so that your relationship with God may be enriched.

May Christ in Heaven be yours,

In love,
Blake

Dear BillPro,

Actually it is the "Inspired" Word of God and I am running with that

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof , for correction, for training in righteousness;

Indeed the bible is the "inspired" Word of God. The literal translation is {God-breathed}. If you think of the metaphor here, God's breath came from His mouth and fell upon something else.

When God created Adam, He "breathed" life into Adam. Would that make Adam the "Word" of God?

The bible is inspired of God. This means that the Holy Spirit filled different men and women who then wrote in accord by the direction of God.

God filled another person with His Spirit inspiring that person. This means that the words we have are not directly from God. We did not hear the words come directly from the mouth of God. Rather, we are reading words that were inspired by God. They are not the words of God, but rather the inspired words of God. This means that these inpsired words are a testimony, and not the exact or actual word of God.

The importance of this is great. It means that the bible is not the exact Word of God. This means that if we read the bible, we may hear about God, but since it is not the Word of God, it means we really don't know God.

If we really want to know God, we have to meet Him. We can't just read the bible and know God. We may know about God by reading the bible. We may know His different commands and know what pleases Him and displeases Him. Does this mean we really know God as a friend? To really know God, we must become one with Christ. We must be united as one with Christ. We must know Christ in our heart as a lover and friend. Then we may know God.

The bible is inspired by God, but the bible is not God.

Have you ever watched a movie that was inspired by a true story? Do you think that movie you watched is true and accurate down to every last detail? Are you watching the exact event as it actually happened, or are you watching a movie?

The bible is not the actual words of God. Rather, the words of the bible are inspired by God. This means they are a copy of His words. They are a testimony.

Because the words of the bible are inspired by God, they are profitable for teaching, for reproof , for correction, for training in righteousness. However, because they are not the actual words of God, in order for a person to be saved, that person must meet Jesus Christ. They cannot just read the bible and be saved. They must come to know Jesus Christ in person, as a real and living Savior who dwells inside them. They must call out to Jesus, and not just read the bible.

In Christ,
Blake

Dear PreachParsley,

I don't know of anything in the Bible that did not oringinate from God. Does anyone else? If the Bible is a reflection of the character of God and His dealings with man, why shouldn't it be called "God's Word" if it oringinated from His Spirit?

Excellent question.

Exodus 31:18 (NAS)
And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Why does are the ten commandment that were written by the very finger of God called a "testimony." Should these not be called the Word of God?

The reasoning is very specific. The stone tablets where two vessels by which held a recording of God's commands. Think of it like this, when God speaks His Words proceed from His mouth. These words come directly from God and are God. They cannot be changed or altered. They cannot be destroyed. They are as firm and true as God Himself.

These words may be recorded or repeated. They can be recorded on stones or on paper. Or they may be repeated by another person. The stones or the person relays the message. However, the substance that speaks is not God Himself. The stones are not God, and neither is the person. And so, the words are not from God. Rather, the stones are a testimony. They are relaying the message of God in another form or substance. A person is also speaking a testimony. They are sharing an experience where they actually encountered or heard the true Word of God.

There is only one person in all of history whose words were ever said to be the very words of God. This is Jesus. John the baptist said of Him, "He speaks God's Words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit." John 2:34 The Words that come from Jesus are the Words of God. They are not a testimony. Jesus did not witness God, rather Jesus is God.

The bible is a witness to God. The bible tells about God. However, the words of the bible are not the Words of God Himself. The bible is a testimony to God, but not God Himself.

This is a really abstract concept, I am sure. And for many, it may seem insiginifacnt and unimportant. But rather, it is very important. The Word of God is God. The Word of God is as true and sure as God Himself. A testimony of God is something that is fallible, but is a also a vessel by which the Word of God comes through.

For example, you are a preacher. Hopefully, God uses you to speak. His Spirit will fill you and give you the words to say. In that moment, you are speaking the Word of God. You are being used like a tool or a vessel to speak the Word of God. Does that mean you are the Word of God? Does that mean your words are the Word of God?

No, it does not. Your words are still your own. Your words are inspired by God, however, they are still yours. You are just a messenger. You are bearing a testimony to those you preach. You are not God Himself, but a messenger of God.

The same is true of the bible. The bible is a testimony of God, specifically Jesus. (John 5:39)

This is not a small matter. This is significant. When we say the bible is the Word of God, we are saying the bible is God. This is a great deception leading many people away from Christ. There are many people who think they know God or Jesus because they read and follow the bible. There are people who worship the bible as if it were God. There are people who are going to Hell who don't know Jesus as their Lord and Savior because they believe the bible is the Word of God, but yet, do not know Christ in Spirit and truth. There are people who believe in the bible, but do not believe in Christ.

When I die and stand before Christ, though I am saved, I will have to give an account of every word and deed I done here on earth. Because of this, I am fighting for the truth. I do not wish the blood of many on my hands.

I pray the Lord will open the eyes of many more,

In Christ,
Blake

Dear boomatt,

We are justified because of what the scripture says. What kind of christ on the cross do you have without the scriptures?

A living God who gave His life in exchange for others.

If you believe you are justified by scripture, then there is not much I can say or do. I will pray for you.

I have been justified by Christ. Now, many will point out saying, "The Christ of the bible." And I will be quick to point out that I have been saved by Christ in Heaven. I am justified by the God who lives, through His death on the cross.

The bible is just a story of what happened. It is not the actual even itself. What happened on the cross took place whether the bible was written or not. The bible is a testimony of witnesses who observed this event. The bible is a record of what happened. Christ, however, lives in Heaven. He is the one who saves and transforms. He baptized with Spirit.

I am not justified by the story of Christ, I am justified by Christ Himself and what He did on the cross. I may read the bible all my life and never come to know Jesus, and never be justified. Sure, I know about Jesus. I have heard of Him. I have read the bible. But how is it I am saved? How is it I am justified by God?

I am justified by sharing in that experience on the cross with Christ. I died on the cross with Christ. I partook in His death and ressurrection. This happened through my baptism.

The bible was an aid in this process as it convinced me to repent and turn to Christ. However, the bible was not the only aid. My brother played an even larger part in this. God used my brother to speak to me continually for six months. I had read the bible my entire life to no avail. My brother, however, a person alive in Christ, showed me Christ through His steadfastness. I could see Christ in Him, without know it. Through His love, I turned from my wicked ways.

My brother and the bible aided my turning to Christ. When repented before Christ calling out to Him for salvation, He saved me. The bible did not save me.

After being saved, I then read the bible from cover to cover. Christ revealed to me the truth within. The bible did not save me or did it give me faith. Rather, it was an aid in my faith. It helped to affirm my faith.

There is a significant difference between basing your faith on the bible, and being affirmed by it. As Christians, our faith should always be based on Christ. The bible should help affirm our faith, but never be the reason for it. Likewise, the testimonies of others should also affirm our faith. When we see other people turn to Christ, we should be able to share our stories of how God is working in our lives and be affirmed in our faith. We always base our faith and keep our faith in Christ, the living Christ in Heaven. The testimony of the bible and of others helps to make our faith stronger by affirming it.

I hope you can see the difference. It is an extremely important difference.

In love,

Blake

If you believe you are justified by scripture, then there is not much I can say or do. I will pray for you.

I doubt the intention but what you may be failing to see is that you are doing a "bait and switch" with all this and it is very wearisome and grievous that you find yourself seemingly above it all by what you are bringing forth here.

It is a unnecessary dividing that you are doing and a extreme overemphasizing. The scriptures are not a plaything to be tossed around at whim but a [i]record[/i] of Gods thought and much more than mere "stories", you are denigrating that which you do not fully comprehend nor have all the collective minds of all the ages ever fully mined to a conclusion nor will they ever.

To give just the smallest iota of agreement with your sentiment about those who have understood the gospel without this precious record ... I recently listened to a message by DeVern Fromke where he attested to a group of saints in then Communist Russia who [i]heard[/i] the gospel at some point and were saved but due to the restrictions of their country never had the scriptures until the curtain fell. The situation he described was of them hearing a preacher expounding the scriptures they had never heard and afterwords many of them coming up to him and stating "Yes, yes, we knew this, the Lord told us these things."

The point of the matter is this is of course possible and at the same time it also proves the "both" of the matter, they are not divorced from each other and just as well somewhere along the way somebody had to have an understanding of these same scriptures to tell them from the outset just what the gospel is, not unlike what your brother did in your case.

At the rate you are going you will be promoting not only an anti-Berean mindset as well as having nothing but an inward witness that is still contained in a body of sinful flesh, a mind, that if you have come to recognize anything at all is full of deceptions and a devil who wishes nothing more than to deceive you into believing you can do without the very scriptures that contain and express Gods thought. The former example is the exception, not the rule.

[i] It is written[/i] for good reason, if we do not have this to bring all our fallen understanding as a safeguard and check against, then it is everyman for himself, that which we have far too much of in this day. This is the very stuff cult's are made of. You need to think this over again and think very seriously about what it is you are doing.

Dear crsschk,

I would ask that you read all the posts I wrote above to others on this issue. I will leave it up to you to read them.

That is not what anyone is saying nor implying, it is a notion you are implying on others.

I am trying to help people to understand the importance of this notion. I agree with you that people don't think that is what they are saying. Somehow, people have misunderstood this connection that God and His Word are one. Jesus Christ is the Word and He is God. We are to worship God's Word as we are to worship God.

This is a truth: God's Word is God. However, not many people will believe this. God's Word proceeds forth from God. It comes from Him. In our limited earthly form, we speak by uttering words out of our mouth. We have a voice that echos through waves in the air. God's Word, however, is much greater. God's Word is full of power. When God speaks, it happens. God spoke the world in existence. Have you ever spoke something into existence? Can you imagine having such power?

God's Word does not rely on air waves or ears. God's Word is like so much more than a voice, it is an active power. The best way to say it is like this: God's Word is God's Will in action. God's Word is that thing that does God's Will. Otherwise, God's Will would just be dreams inside His mind. He would sit and think, and nothing would ever be done. When God speaks, His Word comes forth and does whatever He commands.

God's Word is the image of God, because God's Word is what acts. Think of it like this. You have a heart. No one can see into your heart. However, you also have a body. People can see your body, and can know your heart because of what you command your body to do. Your actions come from your heart, however, it is your hands, feet, and mouth that move. Likewise, the Word of God does the Will of God, and they are one.

God's Word is alive and living. It is not a static message written on stones or paper. God's Word is alive. God's Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Which means that they are then ... ?

GOD'S WORD AND THE TESTIMONY OF IT

When God speaks, His Word proceeds from Him. In order for this Word to be recieved, it must take a form. For instance, it must become sound in order that you can hear it with your ears. The sound itself is not God's Word, rather a carrier of God's Word. You might also call it a vessel by which God's Word comes. God's Word may be carried through many different forms.

The vessel then carries God's Word to a recipient. For instance, you may hear the sound of God's Word. You have recieved His Word coming directly from His mouth carried through sound. You then have witnessed God's Word.

As we know, God's Word is Spirit. God's Word comes to us in Spirit. Except in the case of Jesus, when God's Word became flesh. Otherwise, God's Word is Spirit. When God breaths on someone, His Spirit fills them.

When God's Spirit fills a person, they become a vessel holding God's Word. They themselves are not God's Word, they are filled with God's Word. They are then inspired by God. When that person speaks, they are speaking words inspired by God.

That person is witnessing the Holy Spirit. They are filled with the Spirit and are experiencing it. When that person speaks, they are giving a testimony to this experience. They are witnessing. The words coming from the mouth of a person filled with the Spirit are not God's Words, rather, they are a testimony to the Word of God. They are inspired by God and are from God, but are not God Himself.

The testimony of all the saints is significant. It is the testimony of Christ. The bible is one part of this. However, each and every person who ever lived and was filled with the Holy Spirit has a testimony. They have experienced and witnessed the Word of God. This body of believers who have lived throughout all time is the Church. The Church is the living testimony of Christ. The bible bears the testimony of a few number of believers. These believers have been proven by the giving of their life to God. In some cases, this life was taken in martyrdom. The testimony of saints, of the entire Church, has been proven by blood of the saints.

Revelation 6:9 (KJ)
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

THE BIBLE IS TRUSTWORTHY

When I say the bible is not the Word of God, people often times take the opposite extreme. They think, "If the bible is not the Word of God, then it is not true. It is just a book of error that can be discarded." I ask, why do you take such an extreme position? Check your faith, because you may be placing too much faith in the bible rather than in Christ.

By saying the bible is not the Word of God, I am not calling into question the trustworthiness or the authority of scripture. All scripture has authority as granted by God, and all scripture has been proven by God. God has proven scripture through bloodshed, the martyrdom of saints. God has not proven scripture by preserving original documents. Rather, the proof of scripture as being inspired by God comes from so many people in the Church giving their life over to preserve the message. The bible has been preserved by God by working through the saints.

In our modern era, the saints who wrote and preserved the bible message are being called into question. I am seeing many books arising and being written attacking the people who have preserved the bible over the last 2000 years. The bible is being called into question. The accuracy of the bible is being attacked. And it is an appropriate attack by the Devil. First, the Devil established the lie that the bible is infallible. He has gotten so many so many people believing the bible is the Word of God. Think of how many people the Devil will drive away from Christ by discrediting the accuracy of the bible. So many people have built their entire faith on the bible, and when they discover even the smallest error, their faith shatters. Is this not the story of the man who wrote "The Di'Vinci Code"??

Look at it from this perspective, what doubt's might you be implanting in the minds of the new believer? Do we not already have much of a problem with version and translation issues casting all kinds of doubt upon the same?

Before I was saved, I read the bible many times. I could not understand it at all. Instead, I drew from it my own interpretation and hung on scriptures that fitted my own opinion of God. I used the bible to justify my beliefs.

After I met Christ and was saved, the truth of the bible was revealed to me. I could read it easily and understand the message of Christ. I could see Christ revealed throughout. The bible was no longer my justification. Rather, it was affirmation.

The bible did not lead me to Christ. My brother lead me to Christ. It was Christ who saved me and changed me. After I was changed, and Christ was living inside me, I could then read the bible and know the words that were true. The bible was an affirmation of truth. It is a testimony and witness to Christ.

I am not planting any doubt's in the mind of believer's. My message is simple. Christ is your Lord. Turn to Christ. Abandon yourself completely and entire to Christ. This is the only possible way anyone can read the bible and discern truth. I fear more a person turning to the bible without Christ expecting to find answers, and being lead astray by their own interpretation. Christ should always be first. If a person is following Christ in complete abandonment, they will not be lead astray.

We should doubt the bible. We should not doubt Christ. We should question the bible and pray over it. We should always obey the command of Christ.

The problem becomes that many people live dependent on the bible as being the Lord of their life. Rather than pray and seek after the Lord, they read about Him in the bible. They do as the bible commands. The bible is not our Lord. And not every answer is in the bible. Sure, Christ may lead you to the bible, or even affirm a request with scripture. We can test ourselves against the bible. However, it should not be the source of our convictions. We should not be bible followers, or let the bible be the Lord of our lives. We should be followers of Christ, always seeking Him first and foremost.

I fear believers worshipping the bible. This has become prominent in the Church. Rather than seek after Christ, we are told to seek Christ in the bible, as if that is where He is found. Christ is spoken about in the bible, however, Christ lives in Heaven, and in believers.

WHY SHOULD WE NOT SAY THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD...

First and foremost, because it is not true. However, with lies comes consequences. Some people might say, "By saying the bible is the Word of God, it gives the bible authority. It helps us to stand confident on God's commands. We have something that is proven by which to give us authority." Shall we be like the Pharisees?

Calling the bible the Word of God has lead to many terrible things. Let me review some of the problems...

1) Bible Worship and idolatry. This is not as prominent in the Church who have devoted their lives to Christ. However, it is common among different religions who use the bible as entire basis of faith. Additionally, it is becoming more prominent among people who reject all religion and hold onto the bible as the only truth. For people who have truly accepted Christ, this is not a problem. However, mixed among the sheep are the lost who think they know Christ because they have read the bible. They worship the bible by obeying it's every command. They live by it as the exact word of God. They defend it as if it saved their life. They give their life over to it. And worst of all, these people don't realize that they are submitting unto their own interpretation.

This bible worship has been promoted and encouraged by the telling that the bible is the Word of God. We must obey God. We all know this. And so, they use the bible to defend their injustice and hate. I have heard just about every evil justified by the bible. People can twist it to say anything they want.

The truth is, we are to obey Christ. We are to worship Christ as our Lord and Savior. This is the message of the bible. However, some people don't want to accept Christ as Lord. Instead, they make the bible their Lord, instead of Christ.

2) Christians are pushing people toward the bible rather than Christ by telling them the bible is the Word of God. Because of this, people are not coming to Christ, rather, they are living under the canopy of the bible. They have a faith based upon the bible, rather than on Christ. In their heart, they do not know Christ. Rather, they only know about Him.

People are lost and remain lost because we push them toward the bible. Is that where we find God? Is God in the bible? Information about God is in the bible, but God is living in Heaven. We need to preach Christ, not the bible. People need to have faith first in Christ, and seek first Christ.

Some people will enter Heaven with bloody hands because they did not take the time to love a person and share Christ inside with them. Instead, they handed them a bible and walked away.

3) The plan of the Devil. The Devil has been planning his every move, and his latest attack is even more demonic. He has been promoting this lie and dependence on the bible for a very good reason. He has helped encourage and push the bible above Christ. He has made it into the Word of God. He has done this, because now, he will raise up His army of apostates.

With everyone believing the bible is the Word of God, the devil will now show through evidence and proof that it is not. He is calling into question the saints who upheld the bible. He is calling into question the authority and authenticity of the bible. He has slowly been adding lies to the bible, and now he will call those errors into the spotlight making people argue and question. His next move is to make the bible hated, and to remove it. The Church has grown so dependent on the bible, he will find a way to remove it entirely so the Church will be lost. What will the Church do without the bible?

Some people have blamed me of being a part of this, saying that I am from the Devil. Have you not been listening to me? I did not say the bible was untrustworthy. I have defended the bible as being the testimony of saints, preserved in message by God. I proclaimed Christ which is the message of the bible. The bible is the testimony of the Word of God. It is inspired of God. It is an awesome book given as a gift from God to His people.

The Devil, however, will take the opposite stand. He will say the bible is to be discarded. He will say, "If one part is untrue, then we have to reject the whole thing." The Devil has made the bible into a god, and now, the Devil will bring down that god so that he can establish his own throne on earth.

If there ever was a time when the Church needs to draw close to Christ, it is now. The truth must be known about the bible. We must realize our complete and entire dependence on Christ in Heaven.

Let us not be weak in faith, depending on the bible as our only source of Christ. Let us not rely on the bible as the only way to know Christ, or to even connect to Christ. Let not the bible be your God.

Lastly....I challenge you. I challenge you with this: search through the bible where it speaks of the "word of God" or the "word of the Lord." Take these statement and replace them with "the bible". Then take them and replace them with "Christ". Which proves to be true? In your heart, which is the truth? Are these scriptures speaking of the bible or Christ?

In Christ,
Blake

Dear crsschk,

The scriptures are not a plaything to be tossed around at whim but a record of Gods thought and much more than mere "stories"

The bible is a message. Scripture testifies to Christ. A record of God's thought would be likened to a journal. A journal is kept not in order to deliver a message, but rather to express a need to communicate. God does not have such a need. He would never keep a journal. Rather, the bible is a gift to us. God has given us this record, this testimony, to help us. He did not give us the bible in order that we might know Him, rather, He gave us the bible in order that we seek Him.

The bible is a record of what God has done and is doing. It does not tell His thoughts. How easy would that be if it did? I would not have to seek Him out. I could just read the bible.

"Yes, yes, we knew this, the Lord told us these things."

Does this not prove the source? Does it not prove Christ? The bible is a recorded testimony of Christ. Does this not confirm that?

The bible isn't necessary to know Christ, as this shows. They knew the Lord without the bible. However, the bible is like sweetener in tea. It is not necessary, but it makes the tea sweeter. The bible is not necessary to have faith. However, it does affirm our faith.

I am no way saying the bible is not true, or that it bears lies. I am not saying the bible is false. At no time did I ever say that. I am saying the bible is NOT the Word of God. Indeed, it may have some error in it. Indeed, it may be misinterpreted. It may also be denied. The Word of God has no error. The Word of God cannot be denied.

We know truth because the Lord comes to us. We then can confirm these truths by searching them out in scripture. Sometimes, we may read something that doesn't seem quite right. We have read it wrong. However, since we know Christ, we can be sure He will not lead us astray. For anyone who is truly seeking the Lord and following Him will not be lead down the wrong path.

It is written for good reason, if we do not have this to bring all our fallen understanding as a safeguard and check against, then it is everyman for himself, that which we have far too much of in this day. This is the very stuff cult's are made of. You need to think this over again and think very seriously about what it is you are doing.

And has not many cults arisen by a complete misinterpretation of scripture?

Cults arise from a rejection of Christ. The Devil is the father of lies. Whether a person accepts or rejects the bible has nothing to do with cults arising.

I am not saying we should reject the bible. I am not saying the bible is false. I am not saying the bible is garbage. I am saying that we should first follow Christ and abandon ourselves to Christ. When we do this, then we will know the bible to be true because Christ is first in us.

Indeed, "it is written." It is true many things have been recorded for our sake. Many things have been preached for our sake. Many things have been done for our sake.

However, just because "it is written," does that make it the Word of God? Is everything that has been written the Word of God? What are we to say of the missing books of the bible, the books referrenced in the bible that are not included, like the book of Noah or the book of Enoch?

The bible is not our only way to test. There have been many bible based doctrines that have been proven false later. Many people have used the bible to justify false religions and lies of all sorts. How should we then be any different? How can we know if what we are believing is true or not? Surely not by reading the bible alone.

First and foremost above all things we have Christ. We should always, always abandon ourselves to Him, sacrifice our lives, and seek Him out. This should always be our first response and test. Then, with it offered to Him as a sacrifice, we should open our hearts and listen to His commands. We can then test what we have recieved against several sources. The first source being the bible. We also have each other. We are called a body for a reason. The parts work together in unison. Are we not in this debate to help encourage one another in faith. We should always rely on other members of the body. We can also test things in accord with previous experiences where we know God has worked in our lives. We can also ask ourselves if it matches the person of Christ. Would Christ do this? These are some ways to test. The bible is not our only source.

In love,
Blake

brothers
What is the point of endlessly debating a obviously heretical contention with someone who is not teachable.

Western churches are slipping further and further into apostasy precisely because they are NOT reading and taking the Bible as the word of God.

BeenB

Eph 6:17b; and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

\tSince your first post you have been denying the Bible as the Word of God. Your whole posting history reflects this mindset, and it seems that with this posting you have come full circle.
\tThe very fact that Jesus over and over again referred to the the old written record ( the Old Testament) to validate his claims, should prove conclusively to anyone with a sincere heart to understand, that the bible can be trusted, and indeed is the "Word of God."
\tI have no problem with the idea that Satan has his forces at work to discredit this website, and sew discord with the believers that come to learn here. I have no problem stating that I believe that you are more and more proving that you are one of his sons.

A word of advice for you:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

A few words of warning for those who might be believing some of doctrinal error that you are introducing here.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Consider your ways and repent, the time is at hand

\t\t\t\t\t\t\tBlessings Greg

Ormly

As I was responding to a beenblake post, I thought that would be obvious. The "you" I refer to is beenblake, and his ongoing efforts to cast doubt on scripture.
Most who venture here still seem to be seeking Truth, and answers to help in thier walk with the Lord.

Blessings Greg

ps. Go Oilers Go!

[b]Defend the Bible? I would as soon defend a lion! Unchain it and it will defend itself. – C. H. Spurgeon [/b]

Combat_Chuck wrote:
[b]Defend the Bible? I would as soon defend a lion! Unchain it and it will defend itself. – C. H. Spurgeon [/b]

Nice ;-)

ps. Go Oilers Go!

Most who venture here still seem to be seeking Truth, and answers to help in thier walk with the Lord.

Isn't it time this non essential, long winded, divisive, confusing thread was ended? I think we have all got the message by now. We can take it or leave it. I'm leaving it.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
[b][size=large][color=FF3300]GO HURRICANES!![/color][/size][/b]

It sounded like you were "[i]prophecying unto the wind[/i]... (Ezekiel 37:9)" But then I figured out that it was about ice hockey. I can't say that I am much of an ice hockey fan, because there isn't alot of ice in south Texas.

:-)

The bible was not written by Christ. The bible was written by witnesses. The words written in the four gospels are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Truly, the message of Christ was preserved, but words are not the exact words of Christ. They are not the words of God. They are the words of God passed through another person. This changes everything. This means that the bible is not the Word of God. Instead, it is a testimony to the Word of God.

The Bible was written by Christ. Christ is God and all scripture is God breathed. THe Lord said,"When He the Spriit of Reality shall come, He shall bring to your rememberance all that I have said. He shall take of Mine and declare it unto you".

The scripture is Christ's own record in the gospels and Christ's own interpretation of His person and work and application in the epistles. The Scripture is Christ's own words. THe Scripture is the living Crucified and resurrected Christ, in His apostles as the indwelling Spirit testifying to Christ, revealing Christ, applying Christ.

In saying we can have the Bible without Christ is not to say the Bible is not the Word of God. It is merely the written Word of God and without the Living word, it is dead. Or rather we are dead. It is of no benifit to us if we don't come to the Christ whom it reveals.

But this in no way undermines the authority or the Divine origin of the scripture, but rather testifies to what the Scriptures say. That is apart from Christ we are dead. And unless our dead spirit is quickened to Life by the living resurrected Christ, the Bible does not benifit us.

If we put our trust in the scriptures, yet fail to come to the Christ whom it reveals, the scritpures in which we have set our hope will condemn us in that day. The Lord will indeed judge us by the scriptures as Paul says, "Those who have the law will be judged by the law". Those who don't have the law will be judged without the law, their own conscience condemning them..."

Those who have the law are condemend by that law. And those who don't have the law are condemend by their own conscience, they don't even live up to the standerd of their own concepts. So without Christ, both those who have the scriptures and those who don't are dead in trespasses and sins.

Graftedbranch

Perhaps I missed it in all the posts but did anyone ask what Christ believed?

“Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;”
(John 10:34-35 KJVS)

The Holy Spirit 'spoke' by David, the same Holy Spirit 'wrote' by John, Paul et al. The Psalms are as much 'the Word of God' as was the law, as are the prophets, histories, gospels, epistles. The book we hold is God's spoken Word, Christ is the incarnate word. We don't have to deny the first to believe the second.

The book we hold is God's spoken Word, Christ is the incarnate word. We don't have to deny the first to believe the second.

Amen Ron B.

Graftedbranch

If this post isn't satan unleashed, I don't know what is. Please don't listen to him, he is obviously self deceived. Read the word, obey it, live it and glorify God. God bless you.