Literalism without context.

Im a literalist, always have been.
But the deeper Ive studied Gods word, the more I have realized that context takes precedence over literalism, it must or some passages in Gods word are irreconcilable.

I corinthians 7:39 and Romans 7:2-3 are favorites among a few brethren that maintain that marriage is UNconditionally binding as long as the former spouse lives, even if divorce for justifiable reasons is made.

Those two passages are seemingly the rock, the foundation of an unwavering, unrelenting doctrine that condemns to hell those who are remarried while the first spouse lives and refuse to put this second spouse away.

I have personally tried to get them to understand there is a context involved that sheds more light upon those verses to no avail.

In this thread, Id like to simply mimic the apparent legalism contained in this doctrine and apply it to other passages from scripture...to show that context does override what seems to be absolutes in His precious word.

Compare what seems to be a simple, direct statement....

[b]But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
And they that weep, as though they wept not;
and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not;
and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
(1Co 7:29-30)
[/b]

versus...

[b]But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
(1Co 7:33)[/b]

In passage one we have Paul seemingly actually stating that a man should literally live as if he has no wife even tho he clearly does.
Is Paul actually stating that I am to go about my own business, leaving me wife at home perpetually, literally living as if I had no wife?

If so the second passage clearly is contradictory.
These two must be understood together, with ALL of scripture in order to see Pauls intent.

Exhibit B:

[b]1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [/b]

Versus

[b]1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [/b]

Now, passage one clearly says 'cannot sin'
Before anyone with another version makes the cliam that the KJV is rendered incorrectly, I suggest you actually pick up an interlinear bible and see the words for yourself. The words rendered there as 'cannot' are used as 'cannot' in many other passages and mean exactly that.

But the newer translations, even tho not word for word renderings, capture the intent in John 3:9 when they show that we dont "practice" sin after coming to God...after being born of Him.

But the greek shows 'cannot sin'.
It takes context, understanding the WHOLE of Gods word to see that 'cannot sin' is in no way correct if taken literally.
If we were capable of living beyond sin, if we could ever be beyond the ability to sin, then Christ died for nothing.

So we see that context must supercede literalism when two ideas conflict. Gods WHOLE council must be taken into account when 'rightly dividing' His holy word.

God bless

I got lost in your post somewhere.
Do you agree or disagree that WE, as fallen human beings, are ever beyond sin?

I know some calvinists who believe the flesh sins, yet the spirit does not....to reconcile "cannot sin"...is this what you believe?

I read your post and cannot discern if you are saying YOU are literally beyond sin or not.

If you are making that claim, I believe you need to read the scriptures that say you are a sinner still, just as Paul clearly presented himself as, LONG after being born of God.

If you are saying you CAN still sin, then my point is proven...that 'cannot sin' must be taken in context with the rest of scripture.

FOC posted:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Versus

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now, passage one clearly says 'cannot sin'
Before anyone with another version makes the cliam that the KJV is rendered incorrectly, I suggest you actually pick up an interlinear bible and see the words for yourself. The words rendered there as 'cannot' are used as 'cannot' in many other passages and mean exactly that.

But the newer translations, even tho not word for word renderings, capture the intent in John 3:9 when they show that we dont "practice" sin after coming to God...after being born of Him.

But the greek shows 'cannot sin'.
It takes context, understanding the WHOLE of Gods word to see that 'cannot sin' is in no way correct if taken literally.
If we were capable of living beyond sin, if we could ever be beyond the ability to sin, then Christ died for nothing.

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Stever's response:

My take on the above is that there is no problem. As long as we remain "in" Christ, we cannot sin. What exactly does that mean?
We cannot be judged for our sin, that's all. We all have sin in our lives, in our bodies of flesh and blood (blood inherited from Adam). Christ made it clear that we sin by thought as well as deed. Just looking at a beautiful woman in lust is the same as committing adultery.
When we sin, we repent, ask HIM for forgiveness, and continue our walk with HIM.

Only the Holiness group have trouble understanding this.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Your response makes it seem as if you are dangerously close to the same teaching as the calvinists I crossed who pretty much believed their flesh could sin all it wanted, but because of dying to sin, their spirit could not and also would not be held accountable even if their flesh sinned intentionally.

Paul does not teach this in the manner that some seem to.
He struggled against sin in his flesh, that fighting against that sin and also walking in the spirit caused him to state 'there is now no condemnatoin" concerning the sin he did still commit on occasion, but I find nowhere that Paul ever states that he is beyond sin, or that his spirit is so separated from his flesh that it could literally sin all it wanted, even deliberately, yet the spirit would be free from guilt.

Please reference me to scripture that states that your spirit is literally His spirit.

Even as late as 1 Timothy (1Tim 1:15...7-8 years AFTER Romans was written), Paul admits to being the chief of sinners.
I pray that we today havent fooled ourselves into literally believing we are any less.

~65 ad
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world [b]to save sinners; of whom I am chief[/b].
(1Ti 1:15)

"Chief (prōtos). Not ēn (I was), but eimi (I am)"

Christinyou wrote:
All I am saying is that the Christ that is born again in our spirit cannot sin. My Spirit is His Spirit. Our mind is becoming His mind and still has the old man syndrome in its memory. I can sin and not even know it until the obscure thought or act is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit and He will keep pulling sin to the forefront that the Christ in me can deal with it, and I can become more like Him every day. Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The Holy Spirit convicts: Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: He also tells me I am righteous in Christ and all concerned will work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The "all concerned," is, Christ in me, The Holy Spirit baptized into me, God the Father with the Son are One, so God the Father is in me also by my birthing, Myself being the principle Character of all the Work of the Father who prepared this Plan before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as He (God The Father) hath chosen us in Him (Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

"I am crucified with Christ," dead to sin and I am being conformed into His image every day, Less and Less of me and More and More of Him.

There is less sin in me now than when I was born again, but all is forgiven and we are new creatures in Christ Jesus being prepared for the Father's House.

Paul fought a good fight and that is our responsibility In Christ, "To Know Him". I am fighting a good fight as Paul said He did. My prayer is, God finds me worth of a good fight also. May we all say when the time comes, we also have fought a good fight. 2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Which is of Christ and not me.

In Christ; Phillip

Stever posts to Christinyou:

1 Corinthians tells us that "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit eternal life". Only at the rapture, when we receive our new, glorified eternal bodies of flesh and bone (exactly like Christ's) will we be able to be like HIM.

1 Cor 13 tells that we "Now, we look through a glass darkly, but then (at the rapture) we will see him face to face, because we will be like him.
"12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

1 Cor 15:50-58
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
*******************
Luke 24:39-40
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
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In conclusion, I believe that we will never be holy with our current body of flesh and blood until we receive our new bodies of flesh and bone at the rapture. Our "holiness" today, before the rapture, is imputed to us by our belief in Jesus Christ, and is HIS holiness that He "puts upon us".

God bless,

Stever :-)

Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary of the English language:

The word is LITERALISM:

LIT'ERALISM, n. That which accords with the letter.

LIT'ERAL, a. [L. litera, a letter.]
1. According to the letter; primitive; real; not figurative or metaphorical; as the literal meaning of a phrase.
2. Following the letter or exact words; not free; as a literal translation.
3. Consisting of letters.
The literal notation of numbers was known to Europeans before the ciphers.

LIT'ERAL, n. Literal meaning. [Not used.]

LIT'ERALISM, n. That which accords with the letter.

LITERAL'ITY, n. Original or literal meaning.

LIT'ERALLY, adv.
1. According to the primary and natural import of words; not figuratively. A man and his wife cannot be literally one flesh.
2. With close adherence to words; word by word.
So wild and ungovernable a poet cannot be translated literally.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever posts to Christinyou:

So you are saying that since you are saved and redeemed of the Lord, that it is possible for you to enter heaven in your present body of flesh and blood and face God in your present body?

Just wondering.

God bless,

Stever :-)

P.S. What then is the purpose of the resurrection?

Scroggins said

We should rather think of it as "can not sin."

All that and you missed one simple little verse...

"1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that[b] ye sin not[/b]. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

Clearly written TO Johns [b]christian[/b] audience and THEIR sin.

Who has this advocate...the lost?
Hardly....it is the reborn man whom Christ represents before the Father when we stumble.

*IF* we were ever beyond the ability to sin, wed have NO need for any advocate.

Christinyou wrote:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

2Cr 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Now, if we don't understand that we are new creatures in Christ Jesus. How come if you have the same bible I have what is the answer to what some people see, that Christ is the center of all that is. That Christ literally is birthed in the believer and the Spiritual part of a human being has been exchanged from the old man to a new man in Christ Jesus. Christ is Spirit now and Christ is in Heaven, flesh and bone. God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit speaks unto Himself. They are Spirit when they deal with Christians. How can we put the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of Christ in a flesh body. It has to be done by God, just like it was done with Mary. No part of man put Christ in Mary, It was The Holy Spirit by the Seed of the Father. No Physical, but overpowering the the worldly with the Spiritual Heavenlies. You cannot put the Gospel of circumcision which is man, earthly, Adam and put forth by Abraham by the circumcising of the Flesh. Where are we Christians circumcised? It is certainly not in the flesh. It is in the Spirit that is now our Heart, which is Christ. We are circumcised in Spirit not circumcised in the flesh to make us children of God.

What does God want? He wants children that obey Him. There is only One Child that obeyed Him. So how can man be restored to what God intended man to be before the foundation of the world, which was Christ in you the Hope of Glory and the Tree of Life that Adam saw but chose sin and death by the tree of knowledge and of good and evil. How can God be justified in restoring this fallen Adam to fellowship with Himself without Making it His rule that makes His Children love Him. He wants love by choice of the child. The only way that child can choose love that God can accept is that child to have the nature of Himself in them. No created being has the Nature of God. How could God possibly make this exchange from created children to children born of Himself. He would provide for His fallen created children which is a chosen created people, Israel. But still created children of Israel chosen, are not children birthed by God with His nature in them, a direct offspring. Israel never birthed by God, was His wife a chosen marriage between God and Israel, but still a wife is not a blood relative, Christ, but Israel was a chosen, not a blood relative. Christians are direct offspring of God by Christ in us, Chosen in us, based on What God did for his birthed children. We the children of God which He calls us son's, not children of Israel. Israel is never addressed as direct offspring of God as son's because of the Son that is born again in them. Born again of Spirit and Water. Christ's Spirit exchanged for our old father the devil's spirit for the Direct Offspring of God, Christ's Spirit birthed in us. We search and search the old testament and there is shadows and promises given about Christ. The New Testament, not Mathew, Mark and Luke which was to Israel, but John and the epistles to the Church of the Born Again Body of Christ the Church of Jesus Christ. The Gospel of uncircumcision, especially expounded upon by Paul in the Gospel of Jesus Christ given direct to Paul, by Christ revealed in Him.

We must see our birth, New Spirit and Living Water, which is the Spirit of Christ in us, and the Living Water Christ flowing out of Us. Lest how could a fallen created people do the Works of Christ and even greater than those He did.

We do nothing, Christ does it all, and we then become the children of God, son's, who were in the Father's house before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 1 Peter 1:19-22 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We cannot mix the old with the new, created son's of Israel are not the Birthed Children of God. The Born Again do not have any kings, prophets or prophesy except Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. None of the old testament will make us son's of God already in heavenly places.

This subject is inexhaustible, study the in Christ position mentioned over two hundred times in the new testament. They point to nothing except the finished work of Christ and His position in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ Phillip

Christinyou wrote:

You said it, "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God". But flesh and bone can. That is what Christ entered His Kingdom in, plus being all God and All Spirit of God.

In Christ: Phillip

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:44)

Stever posts:

The natural body consists of FLESH AND BLOOD

The Spiritual body consists of FLESH AND BONE

"flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God". But flesh and bone can. That is what Christ entered His Kingdom in, plus being all God and All Spirit of God.

In Christ: Phillip
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:44)
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The Gnostics profess that Christ came back as a spirit, but God's word shows us that it was a body of flesh and bone that had substance, that could be touched and handled. A body that that was capable of consuming food, but also passed through walls and rose to heaven.

I think we are all on the same page here, aren't we?

God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever posts:

The natural body consists of FLESH AND BLOOD

The Spiritual body consists of FLESH AND BONE

FOC wrote:

Stever posts:

The natural body consists of FLESH AND BLOOD

The Spiritual body consists of FLESH AND BONE

Just curious....do you have scripture to back this?
ive never seen this teaching in over 2 decades of being a bible student.

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Stever responds to FOC, specifically the question:

Just curious....do you have [b][color=0066FF]scripture[/color][/b] to back this?
ive never seen this teaching in over 2 decades of being a bible student
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First we find Christ in the Garden, and Mary Magdeline thinks he is a gardner, and she tries to touch Him in John 20:11-17:

“11. But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre, 12. And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13. And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14. And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16. Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17. Jesus saith unto her, [b][color=0066FF]TOUCH ME NOT;[/color][/b] for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

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Do you recall when two Disciples were on the road from Jerusalem to Emmaus and Jesus met them? The story can be found in Luke 24:13-33. On this journey, Jesus “opened “ the Scriptures to them about all of the Prophecies in the Old Testament that were all about Him. He also sat down and ate with them, and broke bread with them.

Starting in Luke 24, verse 25 we find:

25. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 28. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. 30. And it came to pass, [b][color=0066FF]AS HE SAT AT MEAT WITH THEM,[/color][/b] he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 32. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? 33. And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

Next, we find him in the upper room, when all of the Disciples are gathered together, except Thomas, and he breathes on them, thus giving them the down payment, the Holy Ghost that will live with them forever (their salvation). You can find that in John 20:19-23.

Luke 24:36-53 recounts the same meeting as found in John 20:19-23

"36. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37. But they were terrified and affrighted, [b][color=0066FF]and supposed that they had seen a spirit.[/color][/b] 38. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39.[b][color=0066FF] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE[/color][/b]. 40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto

them, [b][color=0066FF]HAVE YE HERE ANY MEAT? 42. And THEY GAVE HIM A PIECE OF A BROILED FISH, AND OF AN HONEYCOMB. 43. AND HE TOOK IT, AND DID EAT BEFORE THEM.[/color][/b]

44. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and continues to verse 53.

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Right after that we find that 8 days later they are all gathered in the upper room, and this time Thomas is with them. I will post the entire encounter here:

John 20:
24. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27. Then saith he to Thomas, [b][color=0066FF]REACH HITHER THY FINGER, AND BEHOLD MY HANDS; AND REACH HITHER THY HAND, AND THRUST IT INTO MY SIDE[/color][/b]: and be not faithless, but believing.
28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

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Flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life. Only in our new, resurrected bodies of flesh and bone can we inherit eternal life, bodies exactly like that of Jesus.

In 1 Cor 15 we find that Christ tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life, and then he goes into the prophecy of the rapture, that creates a new body, like His:

50. Now this I say, brethren, that [b][color=0066FF]FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD[/color][/b]; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 13:11-13 Christ tells us that now, in our present state, eventhough we are saved, we still see through a glass darkly, but then at the rapture we will see HIM face to face. Now, in our present bodies we now only know in part, but then at the rapture we shall be known as he is known (because we will be like Him).

“11. [b][color=0066FF]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things 12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.[/color][/b]
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

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1 John 3 tells us that at the rapture, we will be like Him:

2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: [b][color=0066FF] be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is.[/color][/b];
3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

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[b][color=00CC00]Job, under the power of the Holy Spirit, had this prophecy to tell us about how The Messiah (Jesus Christ) and he (Job) would stand on the earth in the last days:[/color][/b],

Job 19:25-27
“25. For I know that [b][color=0066FF]my REDEEMER LIVETH, and that HE SHALL STAND AT THE LATTER DAY UPON THE EARTH[/color][/b]:

26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, [b][color=0066FF]YET IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD[/color][/b]:

27. [[b][color=0066FF]Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins (In Scripture, reins refers to the inward parts; the heart, or seat of the affections and passions. Ps. 73.)
be consumed within me.”[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever :-)

This must mean we have the capacity to not sin.

I agree with the former and completely reject the latter.

Yes or no, do you believe you are beyond sin? that you cannot sin.

Please answer yes or no without an essay so that I can determine clearly what it is you teach.

Thanks
wm

Thanks for the references stever.
this is an area that I havent spent much time with, so when I 'provoke' an answer out of you, please simply understand that this is how I test what you believe so that I can rightly discern if your teaching is in line with Gods whole word.

I believe we should be fully willing to have what we teach exposed to the light and tested thoroughly.
Those who simply want us to take their word for things are usually false ones.

Im going to spend a little time with your passages and may well end up being more in agreement with your ideas at some point.

God bless...

Christinyou posted:
Every drop of blood of the earthly body of Christ was shed at the foot of the Cross, the altar of the world that He died for the sin of the whole. When he appeared in the upper room He had a glorified body with no blood. That is how he ascended into The Fathers presence, Flesh and bone.
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Stever’s response:

The above sounds like Catholic doctrine of some sort, and is not correct. When Christ ascended to the father, He placed his blood upon the mercy seat and the horns of the altar [that are in heaven- where the real mercy seat and altar are, the ones that were copied and recreated by Moses, with the help of God], thus making the final atonement for the sin of all mankind.

This is the “picture”, a "shadow" of that moment, that we see in Leviticus in 16:6-19

6. And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
7. And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. 11. And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself: 12. And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail: 13. And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

14. And HE SHALL TAKE OF THE BLOOD OF THE BULLOCK, AND SPRINKLE IT WITH HIS FINGER UPON THE MERCY SEAT EASTWARD; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16. And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

18. AND HE SHALL GO OUT UNTO THE ALTAR THAT IS BEFORE THE LORD, AND MAKE AN ATONEMENT FOR IT; AND SHALL TAKE OF THE BLOOD OF THE BULLOCK, AND OF THE BLOOD OF THE GOAT, AND PUT IT UPON THE HORNS OF THE ALTAR ROUND ABOUT.
19. AND HE SHALL SPRINKLE OF THE BLOOD UPON IT WITH HIS FINGER SEVEN TIMES, AND CLEANSE IT, AND HALLOW IT FROM THE UNCLEANNESS OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.

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This is Christ, in the Garden, when Mary Magdalene thinks he is a gardener that has moved the body of the Lord:
John 20:15-17

“15. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16. Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

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Ephesians 4:8-11 tells us about this ascension, that he was about to make:
“8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill [fulfills] all things.)”

Shortly after that, we see Him on the road to Emmaus with two disciples, after his ascension and the final fulfillment of all of the sacrifices for the atonement of God’s people since the original sacrifice was set up by God in the book of Exodus.

Luke 24:13-18
13. And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. 14. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. 17. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? 18. And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

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Just like Christ’s death on the cross was the final Passover sacrifice, that occurred on the day of Passover on the 14th of Nissan (Abib) [He was sacrificed on the Cross at 9:00 A.M., the 3rd hour, and died on the cross at the 9th hour (3:00 P.M.)], exactly like Passover sacrifices that had taken place for 1,500 years, always at the 3rd hour and the 9th hour. His death on this Passover day fulfilled God's requirement.

So also was His Atoning death for our sins the last Atonement Sacrifice. All of the Sacrifices of Atonement were only pictures of the final sacrifice. All of the previous sacrifices only covered our sins, while the final Atonement Sacrifice took away our sins and redeemed fallen man to Himself. Read Exodus and Leviticus for more insight into the day of Atonement and its meaning in regards to sacrifice and reconciliation for the sin of the people.

The primary idea presented to us in different forms throughout the Scripture is that the death of Christ is a satisfaction of infinite worth rendered to the law and justice of God , and accepted by him in room of the very penalty man had incurred. It must also be constantly kept in mind that the atonement is not the cause but the consequence of God's love to guilty men (John 3:16; Rom. 3:24, 25; Eph. 1:7; 1 John 1:9; 4:9).

The atonement may also be regarded as necessary, not in an absolute but in a relative sense, i.e., if man is to be saved, there is no other way than this which God has devised and carried out (Ex. 34:7; Josh. 24:19; Ps. 5:4; 7:11; Nahum 1:2, 6; Rom. 3:5). This is God's plan, clearly revealed; and that is enough for us to know.

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God bless,

Stever :-)

See also Leviticus 17:11
11.\tFor the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Christinyou posted:

“Every drop of blood of the earthly body of Christ was shed at the foot of the Cross, the altar of the world that He died for the sin of the whole. When he appeared in the upper room He had a glorified body with no blood. That is how he ascended into The Fathers presence, Flesh and bone.”

Stever’s response:

This again is in error. Christ had the blood of God in His veins, and that is why he never sinned. He never carried Adams blood, He couldn’t. Why? Because His father was the Holy Spirit, and His blood was supplied by Him, and His body was supplied by Mary.

In paternity suits filed today, the paternity of the baby is determined by the blood type of the father, not the mother. The father’s blood flows through the childs veins, not the mothers. The problem is, it is still the blood of Adam.

Christ’s blood was that of the Holy Ghost, was that of God Himself:

Isaiah 7:14
“14. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”

Matthew 1:18
18.\tNow the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:34-35
“34. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35.\tAnd the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

John 1:12-17
“12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

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God bless,

Stever :-)

Christinyou posted:

Also where does it say in God's capacity as the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit is God the Father of Jesus Christ?

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Stever's response to Christinyou:

Matthew 1:18
18. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was FOUND WITH CHILD OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Luke 1:34-35
“34. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35. And the angel answered and said unto her, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

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We all know that the Trinity consists of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Ghost.

The Doctrine of the Trinity consists of:
1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
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God bless,

Stever :-)

Chrintinyou posted:

Where does it say that the Blood of Christ, the physical blood shed on this earth is in a bowl on the mercy seat?
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Stever responds:

There was no "bowl" on the mercy seat. The blood was sprinkled directly on it by the Priest once a year at the day of Atonement.

In the ancient sacrificial system, set up by God at Mount Sinai, specific sacrifies and feasts were established by God FOREVER. The New Testament tells us that Jesus Christ has fulfilled most of these sacrifices. Jesus is our:

1. Passover

2. Firstfruits

3. Atonement

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Passover:
1 Cor. 5:7-8 tells us that Christ was crucified for us. That Christ is our Passover! Christ, in His own body, has now fulfilled the Passover sacrifices that had taken place for over 1,500 years before He finally came as the FINAL SACRIFICE, that God set up at Mount Sinai:

7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. [b][color=0099FF]For even Christ our PASSOVER is sacrificed for us[/color][/b]:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

[b][color=0099FF]Pilot announced this on the morning of the Jewish Passover, the day that he went to the Cross[/color][/b]

38. Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
39. But ye have a custom, [b][color=0099FF]THAT I SHOULD RELEASE UNTO YOU ONE AT THE PASSOVER[/color][/b]: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
40. Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber. [John 18:38-40]

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13. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14. [b][color=0099FF]IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER,[/color][/b] and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15. But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. [John 19:13-15]

Firstfruits:

Christ is our “Firstfruits”. Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week, Sunday, the feast of “Firstfruits” that had been celebrated for over 1,500 years, and was established by God at Mount Sinai, that has now been fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:20 tells us:
20.[b][color=0099FF] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept.[/color][/b].

Christ has given us our Atonement. He has satisfied and completed the sacrifice of atonement for the people, reconciling all of them that believe in Him to God:

[Romans 5:8-21]
8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10. For if, when we were enemies, WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, MUCH MORE, BEING RECONCILED, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE.
11. ][b][color=00CC00]And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the ATONEMENT.[/color][/b].
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[b][color=0033FF]Note- If you have one of the "newer" versions of the Bible, other than the KJV, you won't find this teaching there. The word ATONEMENT has been replaced by the word RECONCILLIATION, so the teaching is lost. The "New" King James also takes part in this error.[/color][/b]

This is a detailed study. If you are interested I will send you more information about the “Sacrifices of Leviticus” that you might find fruitful.

God bless,

Stever :-)

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P.S.
Hebrews 8 tells us that the Tabernacle, and the sacrifices, etc. on the earth were only a “shadow”, only a “picture” of the true Tabernacle that exists in heaven, that was made by God without hands (i.e. spoken into existence):

Hebrews 8

1. Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest (Jesus Christ), who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2. A minister of the sanctuary, and of theTRUE TABERNACLE , WHICH THE LORD PIRCHED, AND NOT MAN.
3. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5. WHO SERVE UNTO THE EXAMPLE AND SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS, AS MOSES WAS ADMONISHED OF GOD WHEN HE WAS ABOUT TO MAKE THE TABERNACLE: FOR, SEE, SAITH HE, THAT THOU MAKE ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN SHEWED TO THEE IN THE MOUNT.

Christinyou posted:

Still don't see the physical blood of Christ shed on the earth as being in heaven. Spiritually sprinkled maybe, still looking. Drink in remembrance of Me, for this is the blood of the new testament

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Stever Responds:

Hebrews, Chapter 9:1-28 offers the teaching in regards to Christ's fulfillment of the [b][color=00CC00]Atonement [/color][/b] at the real Mercy Seat, that sits in the Throne Room of Heaven

[The Sacrifice described here in Hebrews Chapter 9 is the Atonement, that took place once a year, for over 1,500 years until Christ came and fulfilled it]

Hebrews 9

1. Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4. Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5. And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
[b][color=00CC00] 7. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9. Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but BY HIS OWN BLOOD HE ENTERED IN ONCE INTO THE HOLY PLACE [HEAVEN], having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?[/color][/b]
15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20. Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; AND WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD IS NO REMISSION.23. It was therefore necessary that the PATTERNS OF THINGS IN THE HEAVENS SHOULD BE PURIFIED WITH THESE; BUT THE HEAVENLY THINS THEMSELVES WITH BETTER SACRIFICES THAN THESE. 24. FOR CHRIST IS NOT ENTERED INTO THE HOLY PLACE MADE WITH HANDS (THE TABERNACLE, AND THEN THE TEMPLE ON EARTH), WHICH ARE THE FIGURES OF THE TRUE; BUT UNTO HEAVEN ITSELF, NOW TO APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: BUT NOW ONCE IN THE END OF THE WORLD HATH HE APPEARED TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; [b][color=0066FF]AND UNTO THEM THAT LOOK TO HIM SHALL APPEAR THE SECOND TIME WITHOUT SIN INTO SALVATION.[/color][/b]
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God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever said

In paternity suits filed today, the paternity of the baby is determined by the blood type of the father, not the mother. The father’s blood flows through the childs veins, not the mothers. The problem is, it is still the blood of Adam.

Babies have their own blood group, which, depending on the finer details of that blood group, may or may not be the same as either one of its parents. In fact, it may not be compatible with its own mother's, even - meaning it can be a [i]danger[/i] to hers, or, hers can be a danger to it.

So...... as for us having Adam's blood, that's because we are ALL descended from Adam.....

The reason Christ's blood works to cleanse us from sin, is not because it is from the Holy Spirit, but because it is free from the death sentence which our blood bears.

Technically, blood is a connective tissue. (There are three others - bone, nerve and skin/muscle.) It carries oxygen (spirit) to every part of our body, or our body dies. Jesus' blood was free from the SPIRITUAL death which is in ours. That's why HIS blood can cleanse us from all sin, because LIFE overcomes death, in the same way as LIGHT overcomes darkness.

Genesis 3: 15
And I will put enmity
Between you and [u]the woman[/u],
And between [u]your seed and her Seed[/u];
[b]He[/b] shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."

Lev 17:11
the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

An interesting question occurred to me when writing this post.

What does it mean 'your seed'...... when talking to the serpent?