When is one free from the law?

“We have been released from the law” Romans 7:6

I realize that there are various ways of using the word “law” But I am referring to legalism – a bondage to law, a spiritual condition that quenches the Spirit and resists grace.

This was constantly a serious threat to the Church - even believers like Peter and his peers got caught in it( Galatians 2:11-14) We are no different. Reverting to law continues to trap people today.

I’d like to turn this fundamental doctrine into practical application - easy even for a young person to understand. I wonder if responses can be as simply as possible. (That may be challenging for those who enjoy in-depth theological explanations)

When is one free from the law?

How can I tell if I am still in bondage to law?
What are the signs?

How can I tell if I am really free from the law?
What are the signs?

(I suspect that these questions could help some diagnose their own unsaved condition.)

Diane

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Great question Diane,

First let me wryly observe that wanting to nail this down into a defined practical thing could also itself devolve into yet another kind of legalism. (sorry...I couldn't resist!)

Now that I've been clever enough :lol: to point that out, let me actually try to address your question!

I've heard the difference between serving Christ and serving the Law expressed this way:

"The redeemed avoid sin because they love virtue and righteousness; The wicked avoid sin from a fear of punishment."

Having said that...it's sad how often the avoidance of punishment, either earthly or eternal, is actually at the root of my service. I say sad, because the love of goodness should be an unconscious attribute of a changed heart. I confess that too much of my "goodness" is very self-conscious and practiced.

Too often I trade Christ's Atonement for my attainment. This is one way I realize that I am not great in the faith...my heart is always engaged in burdensome spiritual calculation rather then weightless impulsive obedience.

MC

First let me wryly observe that wanting to nail this down into a defined practical thing could also itself devolve into yet another kind of legalism.

In a sense, I’m playing doctor here – actually trying to learn how to RECOGNIZE the difference between health and illness (spiritually speaking). It has huge implications for every one of us.

This is one way I realize that I am not great in the faith...my heart is always engaged in burdensome spiritual calculation rather then weightless impulsive obedience.

Reading this thought is like looking in a mirror. I think we conscientious Christians tend to do a lot "burdensome spiritual calculation" which wears us out. And then we tire ourselves futher with a lot of navel-gazing - that is, if we don't take the restful yoke that Christ offers.

I don't mean that self-examination is bad. However, the very things we may read as healthy signs may actually be deadly signs. That is the product of still being in bondage to law.

the love of goodness should be an unconscious attribute of a changed heart

"The redeemed avoid sin because they love virtue and righteousness; The wicked avoid sin from a fear of punishment."

So we focus on what is right and wrong, what we are allowed to do and what we are not, what we should do and what we should not, what is good and what is evil...

Now, there are some symptoms of bondage to law.
Diane

We are indeed free from the law!
We are under Grace and not law,
[b]Colossians 2:14[/b] [color=990000]Blotting out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/color]

[b]BUT[/b]
We are [b]NOT[/b] to be Lawless!
We remain under the Law of Christ, wich is LOVE.
[b]Galatians 6:2[/b] [color=990000]Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil [b]the law of Christ[/b].[/color]
Paul bacame thus:
[b]1Corinth 9:21[/b] [color=990000]to men without Law as if I were without Law--although I am not without Law in relation to God but am abiding in [b]Christ's Law[/b]--in order to win those who are without Law.[/color]

Love fulfills the Law [b]Romans 13:10[/b]
And
Love is the work that makes our faith alive that James calls dead without.
[b]James 2:15-16[/b] [color=990000]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[b]:16[/b] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[b]:17[/b] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.[/color]
[b]&[/b]
[b]1John 3:17-18[/b] [color=990000]But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
[b]:18[/b] My little children, let us not love in word only, neither in tongue only; but in deed and in truth.[/color]

[b]Leagalism[/b] is a very subtle thing. If we try to do anything from the flesh to attain anything of God we fall under a curse, this is Leagalism:
[b]Galatians 3:10[/b] [color=990000]for as many as are of works of law are under a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is not remaining in all things that have been written in the Book of the Law--to do them,'[/color]
Laegalism is what the rest that we read in Hebrews is relaiting to, Rest from the works of the Law. Christ is our Rest

gal.5:13-25
13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[b] 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.[/b]

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

so paul is sayin here in these verses if you walk in the Spirit you are not under law.

how do we walk in the Spirit? by abiding in God.

John 15:4-5

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

what is abiding?

to seek Him with your WHOLE heart (psalm 119:2-3)

to meditate on Him day and night (joshua 1:8)

to obey His commandments (1 john 3:24)

to love our brothers and sisters (1john 4:21)

to pray without ceasing (1 thess. 5:17)

to seek to KNOW HIM, not about Him (2peter1-11)

the greatest commandment is to love the Lord with ALL your heart, mind soul, and strength!!!! as we seek to obey His 1st commandment with our whole heart everything else will flow!!!

Oh God You are Glorious! the beauty of Your truth and deep intimacy with You sets us free!

When is one free from the law?

I think maybe it's when one ceases from the attempts of becoming "a little bit better" in order to enter into God's blessing and rest.

Since this site has a revival theme maybe we can relate this to that topic. Sometimes I hear people say that revival comes at a great price. I think we need to be careful about what we mean. There is indeed a price but it isn't necessarily long days of prayer and fasting or some great sacrifices. What is required is a humbling of our pride so that we repent of sin. The door to revival is on "street level" as Roy Hession would say, under the law we tend to raise that door just beyond reach.

In Christ,

Ron

Diane
I will try to make this simple as you requested.

Say you are driving your car and the speed limit is 55 miles per hour. This is the law.

You want to drive as fast as you want because you have a very good reason for driving fast. Maybe your late or maybe your special. You don't drive faster than the speed limit though because there might be a cop near by and you might get a ticket. You go the speed limit but you don't want to. This is bondage to law.

OR

You know that the Bible says to submit to every ordinance of man and also you don't want to kill yourself or anyone else so you drive at a safe speed requardless of what the speed limit sign says. This is the law written upon your heart and you don't need a sign to tell you what speed to drive because your motive is not just yourself interest but the interest of others i.e. God and your neighbor.

Or

You do like most nominal christians today and say "I am not under law but under grace and use that as an excuse to drive like a bat out of hell just like the lost do.

Hi wyattearp,

Interesting analogy. I like it. I would also like to add to it:

And I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. [u]And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances, and ye shall do them.[/u] (Ezekiel 36)

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us from from the law of sin and of death. Now, we have to make a distinction here between the Law of Moses and the law of [u]S[/u]in. The law of [u]S[/u]in, Paul says is [i]in my members[/i] and is secondary to "another" mysterious law that was bringing him into captivity to the law of [u]S[/u]in (Romans 7:23-25). This leaves us with a need to be 'dead' to the Law of Moses, but [i]emancipated[/i] from the slavery of the law of [u]S[/u]in (Romans 6:7). The Law of Moses brings the law of [u]Sin[/u] to the surface (Romans 7:5,6). This is an interesting truth that cuts with two edges. The Calvinist would stop here and say that man, because of the bondage of the will, cannot rightly OBEY God. But this is [u]not[/u] the case. Tozer points this out in chapter 5 of his book "Paths to Power":

Another doctrinal hindrance is the teaching that men are so weak by nature that they are unable to keep the law of God. Our moral helplessness is hammered into us in sermon and song until we wilt under it and give up in despair. And on top of this we are told that we must accept Jesus in order that we may be saved from the wrath of the broken law! No matter what the intellect may say, the human heart can never accept the idea that we are to be held responsible for breaking a law that we cannot keep. Would a father lay upon the back of his three year-old son a sack of grain weighing five-hundred pounds and then beat the child because he could not carry it? Either men can or they cannot please God. If they cannot, they are not morally responsible, and have nothing to fear. If they can, and will not, then they are guilty, and as guilty sinners they will be sent to hell at last. The latter is undoubtedly the fact. If the Bible is allowed to speak for itself it will teach loudly the doctrine of man's personal responsibility for sins committed.

Men sin because they want to sin. God's quarrel with men is that
they will not do even that part of the will of God which they
understand and could do if they would.

From Paul's testimony in the seventh chapter of Romans some
teachers have drawn the doctrine of moral inability. But however
Paul's inner struggle may be interpreted, it is contrary to the whole known truth to believe that he had been a consistent law-breaker and violator of the Ten Commandments. He specifically testified that he had lived in all good conscience before God, which to a Jew could only mean that he had observed the legal requirements of the law. Paul's cry in Romans is not after power to fulfill the simple morality of the Ten Commandments, but after inward holiness which the law could not impart.

It is time we get straightened out in our thinking about the law. The weakness of the law was three-fold: (1) It could not cancel past sins - that is, it could not justify; (2) it could not make dead men live - that is, it could not regenerate; (3)it could not make bad hearts good - that is, it could not sanctify. To teach that the
insufficiency of the law lay in man's moral inability to meet its
simple demands on human behaviour is to err most radically. If the law could not be kept, God is in the position of laying upon
mankind an impossible moral burden and then punishing them for failure to do the impossible. I will believe anything I find in the Bible, but I do not feel under obligation to believe a teaching which is obviously a mistaken inference and one, furthermore, which both contradicts the Scriptures and outrages human reason.

No word from God is without Power as the angel testified to Elizabeth. The translation, "With God nothing shall be impossible" muddies this [u]important[/u]truth. When God say we [u]can[/u], we [u]can[/u] and we [u]must[/u]. The word carried within it the power to carry it out. When Jesus told Peter "COME" he was able based on the inherant ability within the commandment. When Jesus told the lame person to "stretch forth thine hand" - they couldn't in their own power, but when the word came the ability to "stretch forth" came with it. THIS is why man is quilty before God for breaking His Laws.

HOWEVER, this does not mean that man did not have a sin nature to deal with. Along with the power to obey, arose within the sinful heart of man the desire to REBEL against the commandment. The ability to do it was present, but the question came down to man's will. Man was filled with the spirit of disobedience. This did not make him/her any less guilty of the crimes.

The Law is SPIRITUAL. It cannot accomplish the purpose of changing us from glory to glory; this is the operation of the Holy Spirit as He applies the law to our hearts and minds. He weaves God's ways into the fabric of our nature.

AGAIN, let us make a distinction between the Law of God and the [i]laws of men[/i].

[u]Convictions of men become traditions of men become the commandments of men.[/u]

Let us not get this confised with the laws of God which originated in Him and are revelations of His person and character.

We are NOT under the Old Covenant, but God sought a way to accomplish the whole of the personality of God contained in the Law [i]in us[/i], not by the letter that killeth, but by the Spirit that brings life.

Thank you for all these posts with insightful scriptures and thoughts. I treasure them all. In fact, I think that my question requires that those truths be considered.

And yet… there is that terrible predicament of knowing all this better than knowing our self. And so, I submit my question not to invite a playtime with theological toys, but to enable an increasing depth of freedom - really in myself, and hopefully others too.

We all know that assimilating these truths doesn’t automatically accompany our knowledge of them. And yet, recognizing the inconsistencies can be difficult for us who have been hanging around the kingdom for a while holding the bag of truths. I’m one of those kind.

Though God has done a major work in my life and has given me new life in the Spirit and set me free - totally!, I’ve been suspecting that I do not fully walk in that God-given freedom. I took this matter to the Lord, and asked him to reveal to me just how HE sees me. In other words, how free really am I? How much do I cling to the security of law, or let law be my guide rather than the Spirit?

It was a touching time with my tender Lord. He helped me see myself like a butterfly fully freed from its cocoon, but still with a few “wet spots” on its wings – loads in my mind which keep my from flying fully free in the wind of the Spirit.

I think maybe it's when one ceases from the attempts of becoming "a little bit better" in order to enter into God's blessing and rest.

Be sure to check out Bob Thompsons' excellent article on the subject, [url=http://wor.org/books/g/Gaplaw1.htm]The Gap of Lawlessness[/url] :-)

Beware though, this guy will NOT tickle your ears. :-x

RobertW's: This leaves us with a need to be 'dead' to the Law of Moses, but emancipated from the slavery of the law of Sin (Romans 6:7).

I need to correct myself here. A person can't be emancipated from a 'law' can they? They need to be emancipated from [u]S[/u]in. This is Sin 'personified'.

This is Sin 'personified'.

Diane

Some of you make great theologians but poor doctors, or maybe efficient doctors with poor bedside manner. You hand the ten-pound medical textbook to your patient and say “Here, figure it out!” But you don’t sit down with him and try to understand him. It seems a few of you are not hearing me very well.

Beware though, this guy will NOT tickle your ears.

Now, along with that wee bit of chastisement, of course, I realize firsthand how easy it is to go grab for all those advice packages that sit right ready on the surface of our minds. That’s the risk of being diligent students, experts at God’s holy law. We are quick to dispense heavy doses.

A sidenote: I suspect that if God assigned to his people the job of writing the Law, we’d end up with a 10-pound manual of things to quit doing. But all that would do is make one think about law with every step they took. It’s like trying to lose weight. All you think about is food. So the ‘doctor’ puts his “patients” under the curse of the law. And that just makes them tired, worn out, defeated, and sicker than ever.

At this point in my search, I found one preacher who stands out in this topic of spiritual liberty. [url=http://www.howtolivevictorious.com/victorious.htm]Earnest O'Neill[/url] clearly answers my original question, “When is one really free from law?” in a [url=http://www.howtolivevictorious.com/romans/index.html]Romans[/url] sermon (9:31):

All unrighteousness and sin comes from doubting the Father’s ability to fully love us and meet our needs….. You are free from the law when you have died with Jesus to every source for what you need but Jesus.

People are still in bondage to law when they are preoccupied with being right rather than with being right with God. The tragedy is that people call this being free from the law. They say they are free from the law. However, their friends would say that they are free from righteousness, because they don’t have Christ-likeness in them.
etc

How do we know when we are really liberated?
Or maybe it’s better to ask:
How do we know if we are not? Is that the way we prefer to stay?

It has to do with trust. “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under supervision of the law.” Gal. 3:25

So I ask the Lord to reveal to me the little fragments of doubt that only he can see. That is the path to freedom. I’m going for it!

Diane

Hi Diane,

You are a precious soul... Not sure what to add here other than I can hear you.

Both,

Some of you make great theologians but poor doctors, or maybe efficient doctors with poor bedside manner. You hand the ten-pound medical textbook to your patient and say “Here, figure it out!” But you don’t sit down with him and try to understand him. It seems a few of you are not hearing me very well.

And

CC, why the posturing? Do you think I need the warning? I wonder if you equate empathy with ear-tickling.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; [u]that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.[/u]
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Without adding to the weight and bogging down even more... Somewhere had attempted a dismantling of just what the "Law" is at it's root. Before the variations and the law of Moses there is a 'law';

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Doubt any of this is telling you that which you do not know and maybe the musings I had on it prior was that the root is one of forthcoming alone before God. The "law" of honesty in the core of our beings. The "law" of love as God designed it reciprocally. The "law" of "[i]In spirit and in truth[/i]"...

Maybe the too simple answer to your original question is that we are free from the law when we have all but forgotten there is any law in place.

CC, why the posturing? Do you think I need the warning? I wonder if you equate empathy with ear-tickling.

I was not making a comment with any barbs or any pointing fingers at anybody. :-(

I'm sorry to have been misunderstood that way. I wasn't aiming that at anyone in particular. What I meant to get across is that Bob T. is a great teacher, who says things straight. :-) :-) :-)

What I meant to get across is that Bob T. is a great teacher, who says things straight

Ahh, oh! So you were not talking about yourself but the author. I'm so glad! Now I can sit back and relax. Your first word, "Beware!" put me on the alert - like .. brace yourself, sis.. it's a-comin'!

Actually, I thought the article was insightful, though lengthy. It (or rather, Bob T.) exposed a big gap in our theological presentation - which leaves countless in a dreadful foggy quagmire, where there is neither law nor Spirit to guide their conscience. It reminds us that Christ is the missing ingredient. Is that what you were trying to say by posting it, CC?

Have you considered that this present-day evolvement may be God's way of dealing with mankind? After all while we cling to the security of law (including our Bible knowledge), and while it's working, we will continue to trust in self and fellowman.

Misery may very well be the precursor of victory. I speak from personal experience.

Diane

Hi Diane,

I came across this bit of insightful writing from Larry Crabb that I thought fit the theme of this thread. It really captures the vague seduction for the Christian to return to the law, recast as “biblical principles for living”.

The author's premise is simple. In his own words...

----------------------------------------------

When any ambition other then drawing close to God assumes first-place in our hearts, whether the ambition is blatantly self-serving, or clearly Kingdom-advancing, we’re living the Old Way.

“…The moment we think any blessing other the nearness to God is essential to life and is therefore promised now, we’ve chosen to live the Old Way….Preaching good sermons, raising good kids, building good friendships, developing good ministries, running good businesses---they all become activities of the flesh. The pressure is on. We have to get it right to get what we want.

Do you want a good marriage?
Communicate like this.
Do you want Godly children?
Raise them by these principles.
Do you want significant ministry?
Become this kind of leader.
Do you want spiritual maturity?
Practice these disciplines.
Do you want financial stability?
Follow biblical principles of stewardship.
Life will work! That’s the promise. Get it right! That’s the method.

Read to a person in trouble... Follow principles, expect blessings, keep at it. Your'e under the Law of Linearity." ...Tell him it’s a word from God. But as he responds with excitement, read him another word from God. “Cursed is everyone that does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Biblical principles are reduced to the basic principles of the world when they’re followed in order to gain the Better Life we demand. Biblical principles remain biblical principles when they become guided opportunities to express to others the character of Christ. They’ve always been commands to be obeyed, but when we’re in touch with our new hearts, they’re also seen as privileges we long to seize.

It’s a surprising thought, and not a little disturbing, that obedience to biblical principles can be wrong. But when doing right is a strategy to get what we want, our energy is pride and focus is self.

“Find a way to get on top of life,” the dragon whispers encouragingly. “You don’t have to feel hard pressed, perplexed, persecuted, struck down. Have you been to the latest conference on the spiritual life? Perhaps you should read the best-selling book that promises to unveil the secret of a happy family. There’s a new therapist in town who seems to be helping a lot of people move beyond their depression into a much more satisfying life. And prayer. There are some intriguing new approaches you might want to consider. They seem to work.”

The dragon sounds like a preacher, like a Bible teacher who knows his audience and knows how to make the Bible relevant. He begins with religious talk that not only could but often does come from a pulpit. But it’s only a small step to encouraging divorce or pornography or ethical compromise, because if we live for the satisfactions of a better life, the pleasures of sin will seem quite reasonable when that life falls apart.

The Old Way is really all about me. It’s about my emotional health, my spiritual maturity, my soul’s satisfaction, my circumstantial happiness, my meaningful ministry, my business, or family success. It teaches me to be savvy, to know how to navigate through life so things work out pretty well. The savvy required to be effective replaces the wisdom needed to honor God. If we raise our children this way, that will never happen. If it does, we’ll determine what went wrong and fix it.

I hear a sweet sounding voice, a kind-sounding voice, a persuasive voice, that reminds me how lonely and disappointed I am and how deeply I long to feel good about myself, to be honored, to fit somewhere, to feel significant and secure. That voice encourages that and me to believe that those longings can be satisfied they should be; that the only thing separating the spiritual path from the secular is how I go about arranging for their satisfaction.

Hi Mike,

That is so succient...

It’s a surprising thought, and not a little disturbing, that obedience to biblical principles can be wrong. But when doing right is a strategy to get what we want, our energy is pride and focus is self.

The Old Way is really all about me. It’s about my emotional health, my spiritual maturity, my soul’s satisfaction, my circumstantial happiness, my meaningful ministry, my business, or family success. It teaches me to be savvy, to know how to navigate through life so things work out pretty well. The savvy required to be effective replaces the wisdom needed to honor God. If we raise our children this way, that will never happen. If it does, we’ll determine what went wrong and fix it.

Do you want a good marriage?
Communicate like this.
Do you want Godly children?
Raise them by these principles.
Do you want significant ministry?
Become this kind of leader.

Maybe the closest thing to honesty is just here:

There are some intriguing new approaches you might want to consider. They [u]seem[/u] to work.”

Thus far into the pilgrimage the point of departure is difficult to ascertain, only that it seems to be within the last couple of generations. A great deal of my own early personal confusion stemmed out of hearing things that were 'close' but always lacking this elusive something ... From a 'prosperity' 'claiming' mindset to more surely Biblical ... yes, [i]principles[/i] in large part gathered from better radio ministries and the offshoots thereof would ascribe some understanding to Dorcas' sentiment. These did provide a more stable understanding and opened the eye's to much that was already suspicious inwardly and the challenge of having a "new mind" can be a bit painful after years of abuse, misuse...

Still, for all that, the inward hunger was for that which is truly spiritual, that was the missing '[i]something[/i]'. It seems there is some unfounded fear abroad that mistakes even the word spiritual for "abstract" or to be put in the realm of mysticism so the tried and true now becomes wooden, literal principles tied down to hard and fast rules and practicalities and the rest gets chucked into the realm of spurious Charismatic-ism.

So to toot the horn here a bit, it is why something like SermonIndex is so incredibly needed for just a time as this. These are 'old path's' indeed, the very ones that have led the satisfaction of the inner man to find true food for the spiritual hunger. I know it gets weary to be much about cursing the darkness, pointing out all that which is wrong with the modern day constructs, a venerable attack on todays church and Christendom, it can become a sort of bandwagon to jump on with the 'like-minded' and we can all go shouting off to nowhere with our Amens! and "Yes sir's"!

It is where the prayer would be to God that resources such as these old timers understood the life of the Christian, it's place in the order of Gods desires and would somehow reach first the Christians caught up in so much temporal practicalities.

If I may take one shot at the darkness it would be just that the order is all out of whack. It is as if the unnoticed reasoning is one whereby the attempt is in inducing labor where there has been no conception. Rather than being first born from above and then the out-workings of all things including the day to day practicalities, the inverse is predominant, that which amounts to teaching how to "be" a Christian rather than being born one. It ends up being a constant chasing after the next thing, the next self-help, the next new book on how to mend a wrecked life, all the very things expressed here by Larry Crabb.

There is little doubt that which the statistics have borne out, the vast majority of the present day church is unsaved all the while believing they are and that from the very manner of approach of “biblical principles for living”. It has become that of big business, of buying and selling, a stringing along and making more converts to keep the whole structure supported. The world has firmly grasped the mindset of the church of our day and as it has been well noted finding it's own reflection in it either turns away with scorn or must be manipulated with a certificate of ease of believing some simple statement of historical facts, a 'sinners prayer' and only a slight modification of behavior rather than that which is a whole upturning and radical destruction of the old disposition for that which is the new creation. (Jer 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.)

Since this is now a bit of a rant...
What are the usual and constant questions and considerations being raised now from this manner of approach?

"Once saved\\always saved"
The preoccupation with the gifts of the spirit.
Over emphasis on end times speculation.
All the aforementioned items, of marriage and finance, et al.

He is most certainly right here;

When any ambition other then drawing close to God assumes first-place in our hearts, whether the ambition is blatantly self-serving, or clearly Kingdom-advancing, we’re living the Old Way.

If I may with the greatest of reverence and with trembling put it ... God needs a revival for His name sake and we need it for our sakes, that we might know just how much we have erred and made a truth of [i]Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness[/i]

[i]Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice. And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly. O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.[/i] Dan 9:14-19

I feel kinship with the previous two posts...even though you were just skimming the surface of your journey's I could relate very strongly.

Much like it was in the early 1700’s, we need to rediscover the New Birth within our religious establishment. Although I love books, it is possible these days to learn to speak with such Christian fluency that literally decades may go by before a person realizes they have never known the Lord. We learn our ABC’s of doctrinal precision, denominations play the flute and we dance. Everyone cheers us and affirms sound doctrine and demonstrative gifts, which is so helpful for ignoring our own secret crisis of conscience.

I believe this is the source of our present heart sickness of legalism. It is not being uptight about going to movies and dancing. That kind of legalism is nothing…we step right over that with out breaking a sweat. No, our real legalism is our confidence in Christian principles without the Spirit. We love formulas.

So when Jesus has met some on the roads of Galilee, or others in prison, they find argument from those who have met him on the stormy sea. We want to catch lighting in a bottle and become ensnared by our formulas. We cannot accept that for some prideful souls it is holiness preaching that opened their eyes to a need for Christ...and for some, it was the mercy of Christ extolled that set them free from prison. In all cases of true conversion, it is Christ, his very sufficient person, that becomes revealed to the heart, able to wound and heal and embrace. Yet, we trust our work more then we trust His work. And we fall back on the principles of salvation rather then the Person of Salvation.

Our present day evangelicals are hardly true evangelicals. Like the high church our forefathers went out from, Evangelicals have become the librarians of formalism and systems. We can hardly tell the law from our systems because they are the same. Sure we have correct ideas about doctrine, marriage, finances, child rearing, home schooling, prophecy, church growth, witnessing, and spiritual gifts…we are drowning in good advice but none of these volumes will ever give the water that takes away the souls’ thirst. (Please prove me wrong…)

All of our correct doctrine and deeper spiritual secrets are foolishness when we do not preach the New Birth. On the road of salvation, more of us then we would like to admit are where the Wesley brothers were in 1737; in fervent service but out of union with Christ.

One day, in 1737 November 5th Charles Wesley heard Whitfield preach. He later described the preaching as being notwith the persuasive word’s of man’s wisdom, but with the demonstration of the Spirit, and with power. Whitfield had already been rediscovering the hallmarks of true Christianity, also described as primitive or early Christianity. He would preach with passion from 2 Corinthians 5:17. if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.” Whitfield’s message was simple and unflinching. Christianity was not “a bare outward profession, or being called after His name. It was instead a “an inward change and purity of heart, and cohabitation of his Holy Spirit…to be mystically united to him by a true and lively faith and thereby receive spiritual virtue from him as the members of the natural body do from the head, or the branches from the Vine. ” (I doubt many of us heard a message equal in import at our churches today…)

In his diary, Charles literally records his moment-by-moment conversion under severe physical and spiritual crisis. “I waked…hungry and thirsty after God (May 12). I waked without Christ: yet still desirous of finding him (May 13)…I longed to find Christ that I might show him to all mankind: that I might praise, that I might love him (May 14). Then on May 17th, Wednesday, Charles spent several hours with a good Moravian friend studying through Luther’s commentary on the Epistles to the Galatians, and wrote this; “I labored waited and prayed, to feel who loved me, and gave himself for me. After this assurance that he would come and would not tarry, I slept in peace. By that Sunday, May 21, He found the assurance he was looking for. “I found myself at peace with God, and rejoiced in hope of loving Christ. ”

He immediately wrote the great Hymn Christ the Friend of Sinners.

Where shall my wandering soul begin?
A slave redeemed from death and sin
Come o my guilty brethren come
His bleeding heart shall make you room
His open side shall take you in
Believe and all your guilt’s forgiven
Only believe- and yours is heaven.

A few days later, encouraged and excited by Charles’ testimony, John had a similar experience. After much groaning and self-confession he finally could write. “ About a quarter before nine, while [the speaker] was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, IU felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.”

There is much encouragement in these accounts. However, as men are skilled at doing, soon followed afterward diagrams and flow charts trying to make theological sense of these “second” experiences. Rather then just admit that churches ordain unsaved men, and raises unsaved lay leaders we decided to call this New Birth experience “Entire Sanctification”, implying to young worldlings in the Church that there is also a partial or incomplete surrender to God. I know this well, because I was one of them. And millions of Almost Christians wander just outside the inner courts of union and fellowship with Christ. They laboring sincerely in darkness under this myth that their defeat and fear is quite normal and that sleep will soothe their sore conscience. My own personal testimony of escaping this trap would not only offend my grace friends, because I insist on possesing an assuring inward witness they claim is non-essential to salvation, but also my holiness friends, because I insist that the New Birth is that very passing from crisis into sanctification they claim as subsequent to salvation.

But I am learning that knowing Jesus is everything, and all other preludes and positional claims are trickery. You will know when you have met Jesus my friend…don’t let anyone con you out of meeting Him in person with their pristine Calvinist or Arminian doctrine. Whether you have the cheap grace of scholastized Calvinism, or the cheap altars of Romanized Arminism…many church goers are still laboring under the law…looking for their beloved.

In fact, I am growing increasingly convinced that Spiritless Christianity, as Tozer named it, is the simple explanation for why many in the church are bound up in principles of Christianity…because they do not know the Person of Christ.

MC

Mike B. said:

we are free from the law when we have all but forgotten there is any law in place.

It is an arrangement built on a relationship of trust and love. There is no fear, worry, or guilt. That is freedom, peace, and joy.

This is in essence, what God has offered us! And that is no illusive dream!

Diane

Having been brought up in a very legalistic church I would have to say that the number one sign of a legalistic type bondage is a very dogmatic, bitter spirit. Contempt for anyone or anything that does not look like, think like, act like, or agree with everything you have to say.

Sadly, too true. A bitter root it is and even the realm of Biblical principles and those who would think themselves far from being legalistic are susceptible to it ... We have seen it's cancer even here in discussions at times. A very good word there; "contempt". It is a deadly poison that must be rooted out. Had fallen right into it's trap like a pendulum swinging not long after coming out from under the dubious understandings of those early days and had exactly that, contempt for those I felt had led me and others astray. A half-hearted indignation... Half for what I thought was a unbelievable lie that was insulting the Spirit of Grace and Gods glory (at least what little I grasped of then), the better half the sheer wickedness of my own evil heart, wishing to call down fire from heaven upon them...

This is positively radical! And yet so nourishing to the soul. It makes me think of being asked to care for someone’s home while they are on vacation. They leave no signs anywhere such as: “Turn lights off before you leave”, “Take your shoes off at the door”, “Don’t flush paper towels down the toilet”, etc. You are given only one instruction: Enjoy yourself! The only way you could “disobey” that “command” is to refuse the blessings - ex: not use the china or play the CDs for fear of breaking them and risking punishment, or to refuse the food put in the refrigerator because you feel unworthy.

It is an arrangement built on a relationship of trust and love. There is no fear, worry, or guilt. That is freedom, peace, and joy.

Perfect!

It is a deadly poison that must be rooted out.

My parents are still entrapped in the poisonous death grip of law and punishment. Sadly the venom is destroying my mother’s health. Worse yet, it aims to destroy everyone in its path. Yesterday, in the middle of a delightful family dinner-celebration my mom declared harshly that my children used to behave badly because they were not spanked enough (20 years ago).

Here is a good example of the subtle power of the curse of legalism. It is like a poisonous snake that is trapped in a self-made corner, and then lashes out at all around, inadvertently injecting everyone with its venom. It sends everyone cowering in fear of the next lash.

From that frame of mind, words such as those quoted from Tozer earlier feel more like a paralysing strike from the serpent than words of freedom:

When God say we can, we can and we must.

The impurity of legalism defiles all pure truth because it quenches the Spirit, thus corrupting the mind: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10817&forum=45]A Pure Mind - Tozer[/url]

Diane

Still am just attempting to catch up with Compton's expression...

(MC, I'm wondering if you quoted from L. Crabb's book, "Finding God")
D

Sister Diane asked:

How do we know when we are really liberated?
Or maybe it’s better to ask:
How do we know if we are not? Is that the way we prefer to stay?

It has to do with trust. “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under supervision of the law.” Gal. 3:25

Gen. 26:2 Then the LORD appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Abraham recieved the promise that enabled him to please God. The law of faith liberated him. His life is given to us as an example of the power of God's promise worked out in the life of a fallen man.

Liberty is found in the working out of the promise in the believer by God.

In Christ
Jeff

How can I tell if I am really free from the law?

I think we need first to see that our freedom from the law is not a state or condition but is our reality in Christ.

Romans 7 tells us a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives but when he dies, she is freed from the law regarding her husband. Then the Apostle applies it a little differently saying, "We have died to the law through the body of Christ that we might be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead".

Galatians tells us Christ was born of a woman, born under Law that He might redeem them that are under law.

On the Cross the Lord Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law and then died. IN His death He died to the juristicion of the law. It has juristiction over a man as long as he lives.

IN Resurrection the Lord Jesus lives to God.

And we by being babtised into Him (Romans 6) have been baptised into His death. We are partakers of His death and of His resurrection.

As those in HIm we have died in Him to the requiremtns of the law and the juristiction of the law. And as those who are united to Him in spirit, we partake of HIs resurrection Life and through Him live to God.

We are free from the Law in Christ. It has no claim on us. We are free from it.

Our relationship to God is now one of Life, not of law. We have no relationship to the Law. We are united in spirit with the crucified and resurrected Christ and we live by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus which has set us free from the law of sin and death in our members and we are released from the outward Law of God as a set of demands upon us through Christ's redemption and death.

Christ is the end of the law for rightousness to everyone who believes.

We experience freedom from the law when we have the revelation of the Spirit regarding our freedom from the law in Christ. When we see that we are indeed through with the law in Christ and begin to live by the indwelling Spirit of Christ, then we are liberated in our experience from both bondage to the law and to sin.

Our need is the Spirit's revelation of the divine facts in Christ. We need to see what Christ has accomplished and that we are one with Him and that He is in us and we are in Him and in Him we are free from law and alive to God. When we see this we begin to live in the reality of it and the Spirit liberates us from bondage experientially.

Those who experientially are in bondage to the law are taken up with the law. This is their Christian life. What is right, what is wrong, etc. Those who are free from the law in their experience are taken up with Christ, to know HIm, to experience Him, to live by Him, to love Him and to please Him.

Galatians 2:19,20 Through law I died to law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but it is Christ who lives in me and the life I now live in the flesh, I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me".

"We are the true circomcision who worship God in spirit, glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh".

Graftedbranch

I still struggle with this kind of mentality even though I have been redeemed. It creeps up on me

Someone once said, “When you still feel it, it’s not dead.” I might add: we're still not totally immunized against the poison, and so the sting of law is still felt. Indeed, our struggles keep us close to the ground – at the feet of Jesus. Maybe we’re not totally free till heaven. Like for Abraham, it is a journey.

This is problably why so many of these churches die. They ruin the next generation.

Diane

Mike,

It is wonderful when someone can come along and elucidate that which is finding difficulty in articulation. (Fancy words!)

I believe this is the source of our present heart sickness of legalism. It is not being uptight about going to movies and dancing. That kind of legalism is nothing…we step right over that with out breaking a sweat. No, our real legalism is our confidence in [u]Christian principles without the Spirit.[/u] We love formulas.

Indeed and the formulas are wrecked every time you turn around. It is a puzzlement to me that there is a failure to recognize that... Oh it is so plain and simple as to be easily disregarded;

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, [u]but canst not tell[/u] whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

But we think we can, because we have biblical principles and polished formulas... and [i]promises[/i]! :-)

Yet the Lord continues to defy all these things by throwing a wrench in our plans and arranging circumstances that are contradicting us at every turn. And how happy I am for it! What place would there be for a need of faith if everything was figured out before hand, mapped out [i]according[/i] to principle alone ... Why trust God when we can depend on ourselves and a crafty stitching together of scripture underpinnings to suit our self serving ends?

Oh I must say I am not anywhere near angry. Just as exacting as [i] the wind blow where it listeth[/i] so the Lord has seen fit to visit this poor soul for the last couple of days in a new and different way... very, very difficult to express. It is somewhat like unto:

Phi 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Am still a bit too suspicious of my own possible proclivities to think this is something of an attainment, would adjust it perhaps to [i]am learning[/i].

Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Peaceable. There was something other that come brewing up from within and it went past me and I lost it, a different verse, a better word hidden in the heart. I am unsure where I am attempting to go with this, thoughts are branching off in many directions.

The thing that is always blessedly startling in absorbing the scriptures is how the Lord doesn't work to prescribed formulas... how unorthodox is His orthodoxy! And how true it is in practice in the saints. Anything from the rather bizarre way of deconstruction at the walls of Jericho (Heb 11:30 [u]By faith[/u] the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.) to John the Baptist's 'long' career as an open air preacher or Stephen's grand evangelistic campaign, Joshua's being sold into slavery and later being brought to position, Abraham and Issac or even a favorite [i]think again[/i]; Hosea and Gomer.

So much for formulas.

A digression from the main here but a word that is seemingly out of place when it comes to our God is 'always'...

[i]Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.[/i] Jam 4:13-16

Presumption.

But to get back to walking in the spirit...

In all cases of true conversion, it is Christ, his very sufficient person, [u]that becomes revealed to the heart[/u], able to wound and heal and embrace. Yet, we trust our work more then we trust His work. And we fall back on the principles of salvation rather then the Person of Salvation.

The answer to the 'OSAS' and I find it rather a ridiculous question, a wrong question, is easily addressed by one profound statement, expressed twice;

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

This cannot be taught nor bought nor faked nor learned. It is either there or it is not. And that there is a multitude that have been convinced otherwise ... It is just beyond me.

But I am learning that knowing Jesus is everything, and all other preludes and positional claims are trickery. You will know when you have met Jesus my friend…don’t let anyone con you out of meeting Him in person with their pristine Calvinist or Arminian doctrine. Whether you have the cheap grace of scholastized Calvinism, or the cheap altars of Romanized Arminism…many church goers are still laboring under the law…looking for their beloved.

In fact, I am growing increasingly convinced that Spiritless Christianity, as Tozer named it, is the simple explanation for why many in the church are bound up in principles of Christianity…because they do not know the Person of Christ.

All of our correct doctrine and deeper spiritual secrets are foolishness when we do not preach the New Birth.

And millions of Almost Christians wander just outside the inner courts of union and fellowship with Christ. They laboring sincerely in darkness under this myth that their defeat and fear is quite normal and that sleep will soothe their sore conscience. My own personal testimony of escaping this trap would not only offend my grace friends, [u]because I insist on possesing an assuring inward witness they claim is non-essential to salvation[/u], but also my holiness friends, because I insist that the New Birth is that very passing from crisis into sanctification they claim as subsequent to salvation.

Amazing ...[i]non-essential[/i]?
Your insistance is the Lord's insistance. If there is any biblical principle that is forever fixed it is this one.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he [u]cannot[/u] see the kingdom of God.

How has this become something of almost an 'optional' idea? It is generally said and stated or at least somehow alluded to throughout all the various abominations (Ravenhill) but it is handled with such little care as to be quickly moving on to ...

Biblical principles?

There is a brother here awhile back that was so endearingly forthcoming as to recognize that he in fact did not have a new birth but did have all the outward, even proper understanding of a great deal of biblical ... principles. And, if I recall correctly for a number of years. It was one of the most striking and honest admissions I have ever heard, very similar to what Charles Wesley went through. I believe he is now an open air preacher, full of the Holy Spirit ... and truth.

Thought this was going to be more about walking in the Spirit, sorry Diane, maybe you can steer us back on track here. :-)

Abraham recieved the promise that enabled him to please God. The law of faith liberated him. His life is given to us as an example of the power of God's promise worked out in the life of a fallen man.

We need to see that the Promise of Abrahman was that in his Seed, all the nations would be blessed. And Galatians tells us that his Seed is Christ and it is in Christ that all the nations are blessed.

It is in Christ that we are delivered from the bondage of the law. And the Promised blessing to Abraham is the Promise of the Spirit

Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles out of faith preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham: "in you shall and the nations be blessed"

14 "In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might recieve the promise of the Spirit through faith."

The blessing of Abraham is the Promise of the Spirit though faith givnen to us "in Christ Jesus".

This was not realized by Abraham but as Galatians 3:8 says, The scripture forseeing that God would... and the fullfilment of this is "in Christ Jesus" who is the promised Seed.

Gal 3:16 "And to Abraham were the promises spoken and to his seed. He does not say, And to seeds, as concerning many, but as concerning one: "And to your seed who is Christ".

So the promise to Abraham is the Seed which is Christ and the blessing of Abraham is the Spirit poure out "upon all flesh".

And Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him as rightousness. Abraham believed the gospel concering the comming Seed and though faith in this comming seed Abraham was justified.

Abraham was justified though faith in this comming Seed. And we are justified through faith in this Seed who has come.

The whole point of the book of Galatians is that Abraham was justified by faith in the comming Seed who is Christ before the law of Moses was even given. And the law did not come in for 450 years because of the transgression of Isreal.

And we today are also justified by faith in this Seed who is Christ apart from the law just like Abraham.

But whereas Abraham had only the promise of the Seed, we have the reality of this Promise. We do not believe in the promise of Christ, we believe in the Christ who has come in fulfillment of the promise, has been crucified and redeemed us from the law, and who in resurrection lives in us as the Spirit poured out.

Graftedbranch

Grafted branch said:

I think we need first to see that our freedom from the law is not a state or condition but is our reality in Christ.

Galatians 2:19,20 Through law I died to law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but it is Christ who lives in me and the life I now live in the flesh, I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me".

Maybe we’re not totally free till heaven.

I trust that is correct. Thanks, GB
Diane

Would it be safe to say that many of the people who are trapped by legalism, in some sick, twisted way, actually begin to like this type of lifestyle?

It's easier if you have someone thinking for you. Right? I think it becomes addictive and there is a need for this type brow beating once you become dependant on it.

I think you are quite right here.

Their so miserable, but in their minds they really think their right. I understand we should have convictions about things, but we should never lash out at those that don't have the same convictions. It becomes about control, instead of the Saviour. It feeds on the weak and preys on the unstable.

Brother my heart goes out to you, it is the religion of the Pharisee at bottom, the very thing the Lord struck at with His penetration into the heart ... for those who would hear it.

I believe there is a higher law that overcomes all this though as you alluded to and that can be brought forth through you. It is the 'law' of love that Jesus had and imparts to us by the Holy Spirit. That can take all these things and put them under ... Usually prefer to think these things through a bit more and hope it is helpful to put it this way. Had alluded to the sentiment earlier of [i]And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.[/i]That can be misconstrued and probably should have added an addendum there. It is more subtle than overt, nowhere near hostility or that which say those in India who have turned to the living God from idols are experiencing. Not to sound too mystical about it but it is in the atmosphere. Adding to this;

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

It is all the difference in the world to attempt to talk oneself into this and to actuality have it breaking forth from within. It is a stretch because these are not truly 'enemies' in that sense of the definition but there has been times in the past where my attitude was of such. Maybe what I am hard pressed to extrapolate is both a patience and that which has been of late a great love despite everything, whatever it is, circumstantial, finacial... (Hmmm, coming full circle back to all these 'principles' and outlines from Larry Crabb again). Maybe the simplest and profoundest is that it is the love of God.

It may just be me and certainly we are all at different aspects and places in this journey, but the things we absorb in spiritual truth may come back out from a variety of places. I do not know for certain that it is [i]because[/i] of, or just one of those divine circumstances, regardless, have found this recent gem to be of a great deal of help, one that I wish to re-read over and over again.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10789&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]G.D. Watson ~ Soul Food[/url]

I still struggle with this kind of mentality even though I have been redeemed. It creeps up on me

I think we all struggle with this. And when it "creeps up on us" we need to turn to the Lord and declare we are free from law and thank Him that He has redeemed us from the curse of the law and that in Him we have died to it.

In this way we exercise the "faith of Abraham" and enjoy the liberating Spirit through faith.

Our natural fallen human nature is very religious. And our natural life loves the law because by it we can justify ourselves (we think). WE want to know what good thing we can do to solve our problems or to obtain God's blessing (outward).

Our natural religious nature asks, "what must we do to work the works of God" And the Lord replies, "this is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom He has sent.

I like H.C.G. Moule's "daily affirmation of faith"

"I believe on the Son of God, therefore I am in Him having redemption through His Blood and Life by His Spirit. And He is in me for all my hourly need.

There is no difficulty inward or outward which He is not ready to meet in me today. the Lord is my Shephard. Amen."

Graftedbranch

There is a difference in the "law of the Spirit" and the "law of faith." What is it?

In Christ
Jeff

There is a brother here awhile back that was so endearingly forthcoming as to recognize that he in fact did not have a new birth but did have all the outward, even proper understanding of a great deal of biblical ... principles. And, if I recall correctly for a number of years. It was one of the most striking and honest admissions I have ever heard, very similar to what Charles Wesley went through. I believe he is now an open air preacher, full of the Holy Spirit ... and truth.

Amen to your whole post Mike.

How many believe and are taught that the Christian life is lived by learning and applying "biblical principles"?

That is, do this and you will get this result. Obey this principle and you will get this blessing. Do this thing and you will reap that thing (usually sow money and reap riches).

But the only principles we live by are the Living Christ and "sow to the spirit and from the Spirit reap eternal Life"

That is feed the spirit, feed on Christ, eat Him as the Living food, the Manna from heaven.

Our principle and law is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

This requires not doing this or that but contact and fellowship with a Person. It requires knowing Christ, being strengthened by Him, being filled with Him and living by Him.

There are many genuine born again Christians who are united with the Living Christ but who live in the outer court having the light of the lampstand and some food from the table but who have not entered into the holy of holies to know God as their dwelling place and themselves as God's dwelling place.

These have the Blood applied and have even come out of Egypt but have not entered into the promised land to enjoy their alloted portion with the Saints in the light. They are stuck in the Wilderness but won't cross over the Jordan taking the cross to their natural life to enjoy the rich produce of the Land which is Christ as our dwelling place and rich supply of His bounty.

Graftedbranch

The law of faith is that by which righteousness is imputed to us by believing in Christ for forgiveness of sin(s); the law of the Spirit is that by which we live day by day, (after new birth), making us free from the law of sin (and death).

Amen Dorcas.

Faith is that by which we recieve and walk by the Spirit.

As Paul says, "did you recieve the Spirit by works of law or by the hearing of faith?"

Actually the Spirit and faith are not two separate things but rather faith is the fruit of the Spirit's indweling. That is as the Spirit unveils Christ to us and we begin to appreciate Him, this appreciation of Him becomes our faith by which we believe into Christ uniting us with Christ.

As we believe into Christ by the Spirit's enabling, the Spirit regenerates our dead spirit like a flame igniting a dead wick. As He enters into our dead spirit our spirit is quickened to life and becomes His eternal habitation.

And it is through the indwelling Spirit that we have faith to walk in Him. As it is written in John 14:

In that day, (when the Spirit comes) you will know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you." It is by the Spirit that we know that Christ is within us and we are in Him and through this conciousness we are enabled to walk by faith in Him and enjoy HIm as our rich supply.

Wherever the Spirit is, there is faith. Wherever there is faith, the Spirit is. Or rather one may say that where the Spirit is, there is the revealtion of Christ (He shall take of mine and declare it unto you) and where there is the revealtion of Christ there is the corrosponding faith in Him. It is the revealtio of Christ by the Spirit that produces in us faith. And this faith unites us with Christ and brings into us all the blessings and riches of Christ.

Graftedbranch

Compton, You brought forth (via L Crabb) some of the finer subtleties of legalism. Surely this theme topic would be incomplete without these considerations. If I remember correctly, God took Crabb through a time of personal crisis in order for him to see this insidious affliction. Since then he guarded against it in his writing. In fact, he basically renounced all his earlier books, though really there was not much wrong with them. He felt that they may have tempted readers to seek satisfaction outside of Christ. He is correct. I was one of them. Yet I do not for a minute blame him.

As I pointed out earlier, a big part of the fault lies with the readers themselves. If they have a legalistic mindset, then everything will be seen from a legal perspective: the right way vs the wrong way, even in the attempt to live free from law (as you warned early).

I am one of those who have gone through all the hoops Crabb mentions. I was determined to make a life for myself that worked better than the one I had, and that would put myself and my family on the right track, and maybe even my church. But God (thankfully) toppled all my aspirations. That was a miserable pit to live in, because there was no workable law to get me out!

I suspect that the reason so many of us have craved for law has been to maintain our sanity. Law is like the stitching on a garment. It keeps us all together. (Is that what Adam and Eve were doing when they were sewing their fig leaves?)

Having said that, I do not regret one moment of my long searching after good laws. I learned the value of God’s righteous standards. I learned to love his law, for good reasons: Because it preserves us! Law is not bad! It is holy! (Rom 6)

I’d sure hate to get legalistic about the church’s legalistic attempts to correct the sin problems (caused by legalism), by legalistically suggesting that we ban conferences and burn our church library collections. Then we’d have to burn the bibles too, because the Bible is perverted by legalistic mindsets more than any other book.

The need to distinguish between God’s law and man’s law was pointed out earlier. Yet, I’m not convinced that the dividing line can be placed there. After all, not all man’s law oppose God’s law. Many secular writers support Biblical principles, ex: mutual respect, parental obedience, discipline, marital fidelity, etc. In fact in many cases their understanding exceeds that of Bible followers. They are able to see through the sickness of our legalism, and therefore can help us see our collective blindspots.

Studying laws help us understand God and ourselves. They help us know when we are on track and when we are not. So really, the more we learn law through all these conferences and self-help methods the more we see that we do not and cannot measure up in our own strength – it, that is, we are honest.

All the failings of the church in this matter points to one place – our own hearts. For that is where the trouble lies. And that is also the only place where freedom can begin and our perspectives change, that is, when God gives us a new heart.

… not doing this or that but contact and fellowship with a Person.

And about all our modern-day zealous legalists: Jesus gave a simple way of handling them: “Let them alone… ” Matt. 15:14 Just think, if their followers, peers, fellow parishioners, or family members did that, their sense of power and influence would fizzle, would it not?

We simply must decide to whom we belong.

Diane

Then we’d have to burn the bibles too, because the Bible is perverted by legalistic mindsets more than any other book.

I would not say Amen to any assertion of perversion in the bible. The perversion is in our fallen nature and in our reading of the Bible but not in the bible itself which is "God breathed".

As Paul says, "the law is lawful if it is used lawfully".

The Law was given by God and it is good. But it's intent was not to give life but to reveal our condition that we might come to Christ for Life through faith.

The fact that men twist the scriptures and don't see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and the revelation of the Bible is not in anywise to suggest that the Bible is perverse but that we are the perverted ones.

Our problem is that at the reading of the scriptures there is a veil over our heart as it is written in 2 cor. 3:15-18:

Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their (the Jews) heart; But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. And the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror, the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit."

1 cor. 2:14

"The soulish man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because they are dicerned spiritually"

Graftedbranch

This has turned into one awesome thread, thanks to everyone who has contributed in making us think things out and do some honest searching of our hearts. Much of what has been said here just reverberates within me and has led me to some deep anguish and searching.

I’d sure hate to get legalistic about the church’s legalistic attempts to correct the sin problems (caused by legalism), by legalistically suggesting that we ban conferences and burn our church library collections. Then we’d have to burn the bibles too, because the Bible is perverted by legalistic mindsets more than any other book.

:-? :-o

This whole thread and especially the quote above make me just cry out, "Oh Lord, for the simple faith of a child!"

In Christ,

Ron

So many excellent posts in one thread.

The story about the brother who had to admit that he was not Born Again is especially striking. I mulled over the topic of "Almost Christan", trying to consider if it was too far a branch from Diane's original theme of walking in the spirit vs. legalism. In the end, I do feel the two topics are strongly related, because a key aspect of legalism is that it can instruct the unsaved man in how to walk and talk much like a Christian.

Occasionally, when this topic of the "law" is raised, some consider that the law is more or less irrelevant to the blood saved Christian. I feel much confusion can occur when we critique the law itself. Despite it's hotly disputed role (or lack of) in Justification, I think the New Testament writers were fairly clear that the law itself is supremely good because it tells us what matters to God, though it is not the means He uses to regenerate a sinful soul.

So if the law is good and of God then what departure should we reasonably expect from it? (How is liberty not license?) Maybe someone else can expound on this further, but it occurs to me that the full Liberty of the Spirit is relaized only when we have the very Fruit of God's Spirit alive in our hearts, minds and characters. ...love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.These attributes are all facets of Jesus' righteous character. Jesus' character is of course in perfect alignment with God's Word, and the closer we come to being transformed into Christ...the less law we'll need. This is why Paul says regarding the Fruit of the Spirit, against these things there is no law.

I admit that this thinking is more didactic then dynamic in my own life...I wish I could testify more about the liberty and fruit of the Spirit from personal habits.

Never the less, I believe that it is worth considering that Liberty in the Spirit is best considered as the liberty from our need for the enforcement from the Law, because we can never be excused from the virtue upheld by the Law. So how do we know we are walking in the liberty of the Spirit and no longer "under the law?" Perhaps it's when our inward unconscious disposition is so inclined to God's ways that the outward law itself becomes redundant.

Furthermore, I am convinced, that the closer we come to Christ's nature in ourselves...the less distracted we become by questions of blessing and curses of the Law. Haven't we all experienced the Joy of the Spirit, the sweet forgiveness and passing of God's displeasure, His love and like for us as His Children, the eagerness to lift our brothers and sisters up higher then ourselves, to strengthen their faith and meet their needs, while working hard to be a burden to no one, reserving our speech for buoyant words of life and peace, and sharing with all we meet the happy trust that carries us through financial and physical worries?

In those times, can't we imagine that the impulsive Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the compulsory law of sin and of death? In such uncalculated moments, can't we see how we have indeed died to the law and become alive to God? Before putting on Christ, we needed an outward tutor to teach us the heart of God, but with Christ living in us, we can know that heart firsthand. To possess Christ is to be given a heart of righteousness that is desirous to love God and is filled with concern for each others burdens. Christ, replacing all our old agendas, becomes a soul security that is deeper and a blessing more final then the temporal security and blessings sought under the provision of the Law.

Indeed, perhaps even my own questions of legalism verses liberty, and blessing verses cursing, become less important as my heart becomes more and more satisfied with Christ.

To paraphrase Galations 5:22, Against the indwelling character of Christ there is no law. And to paraphrase Paul in 1 Corinthians, (with perhaps a little license...)"I resolved to know no Bible principle, law of reciprocity, denominational orthodoxy, deeper spiritual secret, truism, hebraism, super naturalism, moral code, marriage counsel, or financial planning strategy,... except Jesus Christ, and him crucified"

Blessings,

MC

(By the way...for any one interested, those excellent L. Crabb quotes were from "The Pressure's Off.")

Edit*

If some poor soul happens upon this otherwise good thread and is reading this... Please disregard what follows in at least the inappropriate placement of the ranting. It seemed all well and good at the time. Of a mind to just remove it wholesale but that isn't any wiser. Will leave it as a fresh reminder of the folly I am still susceptible to. With apologies.

Mike

[i] For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.[/i] Rom 8:15

Does not my heart burn for Thee?

Psa 27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.

We grow cold by drifting, by distraction, by ...

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Distraction must come as the duty of the day beckons. The faculties of concentration upon the work at hand.
And yet to pray always
To walk in the spirit

Are we divided?
Is Christ divided?

Must we not leave therefore, in our minds, one for the other?

The controlling interest of the inner life.
Whose?
Gods thought, which by long use ...

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2Ti 3:15

I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. 1Jo 2:13

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Col 3:16,17

A moment of slight departure from this. A disturbing thought even here that casts a carnal reasoning about the Word of God, whether it be by insinuation intended or otherwise, whatever the motivation it brings forth doubt and leads to death. The authority of scripture is not up for dispute by mere mortals. It is authoritative by it's character. This recent attempt of dividing ink and paper, translation over translation, so called 'legend', what the Word of God is, Gods Word, Gods thought, how it is communicated, kept, preserved, forever and onward disputing and incredibly grieving it is that some would have the notion of prideful reckoning of choosing that which suits some notion cooked up in the carnal mind. Might we be forever done with this nonsense. What shallow and little thinking it is to be disputing and bringing in doubts to those who may yet still be ...

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

That is not a comment of derision is it? Maybe it depends. For those who by now ought to know better, perhaps it would be good to go back on milk again, learn again the humbling aspects that have now been lost by casting doubt back unto the very Word that your new intellect has so grandiosely puffed up your pride as to sit as judge and ruler of God's own thought.

Enough of such nonsense and enough of this Heaven sent idea of the King James translation being all things and the [i]only[/i], absolute, perfect ... It has been stretched beyond credulity, beyond fact, and the level of sheer dishonesty ought to be repented of. Read the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10811&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Preface to the King James Version 1611[/url] itself and find just where all these notions of the authors intent truly is. The endless reams of words put into their mouths, thoughts stuck in their heads and motivations of their hearts is dispelled by their own words. The authors were far more honest and charitable then all the academics and their minds of suspicious conspiracy, it has become the Da Vinci code witch hunt of spurious absurdities. It is a good translation, even a preferred translation, but it does not need to be overstated and lied about to support itself. Enough!

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Might this be the most powerful and final arbitrator of all things, both to us as it applies to walking in the spirit and to all the aforementioned understanding of God's Word and the Word of God. The point of penetration is just this;

They are one and in the same. It comes full circle to Christ being divided and to us being divorced from the Word of God, the Word of Christ dwelling richly in our hearts, in our minds and in our very marrow of being. It is the same!

No need to once again trot out all the scripture verses as support, the question is do you [i]abideth[/i]?
Do verses that are hidden come forth [i]naturally[/i]?(There is such a thing as natural, [i]spiritually[/i])

Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Is it method, program, happenstance or sloth that the Word of God dwells [i]richly[/i]? Is it arbitrary, mandated, manipulated and cajoled, do we need to be poked and prodded, convinced? Exhorted? If we have grown dull and tepid, perhaps, discipline is certainly the root of being a disciple.

But I speak of hunger. Hunger for the Living God.
[i] Give us this day our daily bread[/i]

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Oh my! I am wrong, this belongs along side Hebrews. Oh dear saints it is not sarcasm, [i]it is written[/i] ...

"Every word"

A tall order. Have we every word? This is substance and life blood. Prayer and the indwelling Holy Spirit and yet again, divorced from, divided into compartmentalized area's of study or devotion? Oh we must do these things most assuredly, but do we leave off as the duty of the day comes forth? Divorced from ourselves?

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

It is most similar in underlying sentiment.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Both!

We most certainly can walk in the spirit. It is a choice, a decision of the mind. We can choose that which is to occupy our thoughts even in our busy-ness. We can choose to pray early and often. We can do just this ...

Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.

Wherefore girding up the loins of your mind, be sober and set your hope perfectly on the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance: but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living; because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:13-16

Because it is written. Because we hunger and thirst after the Living God. Because we love Him who first loved us. Because eternity is long. Because death awaits and the judgment. Because fear and familiarity are both gloriously wedded together. Because ...

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

Compton wrote:

those excellent L. Crabb quotes were from The Pressure's Off.

What a great title! This title alone is surely worth the book price. It should be inviting for the countless who feel like they live in a pressure cooker! - for those who feel the heavy weight of countless laws (ways to improve their lives) bearing down on them.

Here is a book review I found on the net:

Larry Crabb describes it, “you have decided that what you most want out of life is within your reach, and you are doing whatever you believe it takes to get it.” But in the New Way of life, “you have realized that what you most want is beyond your reach, and you are trusting God for the satisfaction you seek. You want Him. Nothing less, not even His blessings, will do.”

The Old Way–the way most Christians define life and pursue fulfillment–is fundamentally wrong and harmful. It leaves us tired, in bondage, and feeling distant from God. But the New Way brings true freedom and refreshment as we tap into the power to draw closer to God in a personal way.

“We can’t always make life work. But we can always draw near to God. There is a different way to approach our problems. There is a NEW WAY to live.” —Larry Crabb
There is nothing more important than learning to discern if we are indeed walking in faith or law – eternal difference. We cling to the law as our sense of security, so convinced that it is shocking to find out we are deceived.

I praise God for those authors and preachers who desire to see God’s people find his freedom. From what I read of Crabb, he transforms doctrine from theoretical ideals into real-life application for our contemporary generation.

I pray that as people grow tired of all their self-efforts, they will welcome this kind of teaching as springs of water on the dry ground.

Diane

Dorcas wrote:

after so many apparent battles on SI about whether victory over sin is possible.

Just maybe the underlying reason for this is so that we can have a controllable religion – like building our own Babel Tower. However, we inevitably end up with confused dialogue. We dispute over the def'n of right from wrong, good from evil. We can’t understand each other. And so our project fizzles. (thankfully)

If I return to the medical analogy – it’s like all the experts getting together to study every disease they discover, categorize them, define them, and find remedies. If, instead they would seek Christ and encourage others to, there wouldn’t be most of these diseases we see in our society. So too with studying sin and discovering methods (laws) of eradicating it. There is no victory. It is better to seek Christ and then we wouldn't have so many struggles with sin.

When we are healthy we don’t think about health. Only when we are sick do we try to define health. After all, we need to know what good health looks like so that we realize something is wrong. That's the function of law.

I suspect that we would not be preoccupied with sin and laws if we were spiritually healthy - which is, by Biblical definition, the condition of being FREE from all this stuff, free in the Spirit, fully trusting in Christ.

I now ask: Will we ever be fully and permanently free from the law, experientially, that is?

I am not convinced. After all, throughout life we are constantly faced with new challenges, new temptations, and deeper testings. Just when we thought we had victory, we find ourselves weak in faith. At those low points, we instinctively reach for anything that preserves our fragile ego – including the security of law, those guiding principles that make us feel more secure in ourselves. Yet, our desperate attempt to stay afloat may be worse than the sin we are trying to escape.

Nevertheless, through the trials and failures, the Spirit helps to grow stronger in faith, and we eagerly abandon more and more of our old reliances - as we realize how utterly futile they are.

So, Dorcas, even a discussion about having victory over sin, including being totally free from law has its own risks, as Compton pointed out at the beginning. It may ever-so-subtly divert our eyes off of Christ and on to law - and self. ... and you could end up with battles.

Diane

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I now ask: Will we ever be fully and permanently free from the law, experientially, that is?

I am not convinced.

I am... Proved it perfectly a couple of replies back (Added an edit as well). What I mean to say is, I am convinced that [i]in my flesh dwells no good thing[/i]. A bit of play on words here, but I agree Diane, seems we are right full circle back to Paul's [i]wretched man[/i].

A strange bit but, have you ever read things backwards, meaning from the bottom up, basically backtracking? It is interesting sometimes to notice those things again from a different perspective.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the [u]law is spiritual[/u]: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Going forward again;

Rom 7:21 I find then [u]a law[/u], that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

These 'laws' ...
the law [i]of God[/i]
law in my members
the law of my mind
the law of sin ... which is in my members

Paul is frank enough to just come out and admit it:

[i]but I am carnal[/i]

It seems it is a great leap to come to:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

And the 'answer':

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Right there it seems there is a disconnect of the mind and the unfinished business is:

[i]So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.[/i]

It seems also that there is a duty on our part here that comes up frequently throughout the epistles and elsewhere to [i]deal with[/i] the flesh, to deny it, to put it under, to submit it to the [i] the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus[/i]

The former example of stupidity and very much to my embarrassment and want of removing the entirety of the last post here is the example of the flesh trumping and tripping over that which I know better. I should have been praying in all honesty. The sheer folly of making the same mistake over and over again. I know better than to write early in the morning without really seeking the Lord in solitude of the prayer closet. I got off on some tangent and fully was convinced it had the Lords backing in that rather subtle, subconscious way, something on the order of "This needs to be said and the Lord agrees with me." Though I had never really bothered to [i]ask[/i]. Not that it was some great sin, but it was a dead work, it was out of place and it wasn't until coming back to it later in the day that I just recoiled at it and ... "What in the world was I thinking?" Not to blow this all out of proportion but to just bring back all this to the underlying sentiment that gets lost somewhere that I think Diane hits precisely and will repeat it again:

Will we ever be fully and permanently free from the law, experientially, that is?

That sentiment seems to be "eradication" and I do believe it is highly deceptive, reality in God is constantly throwing the corrective wrench in the whole matter.

It is easy to forget that we do not forget. Our memories are still fully intact even if they are somewhat muddy. There is a real devil, an accuser who is masterful at pulling these past forgiven sins back up again, back to the forefront of the mind. Worse than that we are fully capable of mining these things on our own, 'who' is doing what on any given occasion ... I will borrow Krispy's great line from elsewhere; "You might as well wrap your head with duct tape" trying to figure it all out, your brain might explode. Surely there are times when it is overt, in the heat of prayer some nefarious thought comes barging in ... Think this lends itself to the whole realm of believers harassment and so called 'possession', a whole other topic but briefly the atmosphere of Eph 6:12 [i]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.[/i] has me wondering aloud the mystery of it all ... the battle field is [i]out there[/i] in the spiritual realm seemingly more so than [i]in here[/i]. Not sure if that makes any sense, maybe it is to say just that the flesh has enough of it's own inherent problems, it's own particular 'evil' to contend with.

Thoughts are going in fifteen different directions here but just one more towards all this,

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Can still recall when this used to practically have me reaching for the duct tape trying to understand it.

"Cannot sin" ?

Coupling that and attempting to reconcile it with:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

But the answer is there and I believe it is also the answer to the descriptive attempt of "sinless perfection" as it is coined:

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:

That is truly walking in the spirit. If we are abiding, even if momentarily, fully ...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Christ cannot sin and if we abideth...
Reminded of an old Charles Stanley message where he somewhat upbraided the congregation (with a great deal of charity) with the exhortation of "Did you go without sinning for an hour today? Maybe even the whole day?" The idea was that it is just as easy to forget that we do forget the fact that we can and do go without sinning and hopefully it is the greatest proportion of the time. More so that we do keep very short accounts with the Lord in that continual fellowship that is ours with Him.

It's early again, prayed well this morning, will see what further embarrassment all this rambling might bring later on today.

:-?

I now ask: Will we ever be fully and permanently free from the law, experientially, that is?

That's the purpose of sanctification. It's that the old nature die out totally. Until that work is done in our hearts, we'll go from victory to defeat to victory and so on.

1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

This work of sanctification is not done through our flesh but through the blood of Jesus. Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

This great work of sanctification will cost us everything but it's a work that only Jesus can do. 1 Thessalonians 5:23, 24 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and [b]he[/b] will do it.

Sister Dorcas and Brother GB,

I agree with what you have written...basically, our faith is the product (fruit) of the Holy Spirit.

The law of the Spirit might be defined as God's grace poured out on man. The grace that God dispenses to fallen man can be found in many sections of Scripture. This one sections draws a picture of this grace and God's intended purpose for dispensing this grace.

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.
6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;
\tUnderstanding will keep you,

The precepts found in this Scripture defines God's work that is freely given to all men.

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The Holy Scriptures are able to make one wise for salvation.

Now the law of faith consists of our growing in this understanding that comes from the illumination that the Holy Spirit brings to the word of God in our daily walk. As He directs and counsel us, we begin to live the word of God. We begin to recognize how God makes us wise for salvation. As these real life experiences add up, glory upon glory, we grow wisdom that is of God. The wisdom of God consists, and is totally encompassed in the image of Christ that is revealed to us as we walk with Him.

How does this wisdom and understanding bring liberty into our lives?

His burden is light...

In Christ
Jeff

That's the purpose of sanctification. It's that the old nature die out totally. Until that work is done in our hearts, we'll go from victory to defeat to victory and so on.

I don't find this in Romans 6, 7, and 8. The thrust of these scriptures shows us that we died in Christ to sin, the flesh, and the law. And that only through the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus do we enter into and enjoy the reality of it.

It is Christ who died to sin and the flesh (Romans 6) and Christ who died to the law (Romans 7) and as those who have been baptised into Him, His history has become our history.

As those who have believed into Christ and baptised by one Spirit into Him, we have partaken of His death to sin, His death to the flesh as a ruling master, and His death to the law with it's requirements.

And by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus we enjoy the reality of this in our experience as Romans 8 lays out.

Being dead in Christ to sin and the flesh does not eradicat sin from our flesh, but because of our union with Him, the flesh no longer is our ruling master. In Him we have His death and resurrection and through faith in HIm the Spirit applies this reality and enables us to experience freedon from bondage to sin, the flesh, and to the law as on outward requirement. And by the indwelling Spirit we experience His all victorious overcomming Life and "reign in Life through the one."

Grace does not ereadicate sin from us or clense our flesh. Rather grace imparts into us and makes real to us our union with Christ and through Him we experience all He is and all He has acomplished.

Our flesh is not dead. It is very much alive. But in Christ we have died to it. It no longer has authority over us. It's power has been destroyed in Christ and we are free. Our flesh was not crucified in Christ. Our old man was crucified with Christ. The Man of Old, the man Adam who came under the dominion of the flesh. But our old man has been crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be rendered powerless (it's authority destroyed)

Again, our flesh is not crucified with Christ, but our old man. That is who we were as slaves to sin and the flesh. And in christ we have died to it's rule and now in Christ we are free from it's law of sin and death.

As those alive from the dead we are to present ourselves to God and our members as instruments of rightousness to God. Christ has broken the authority of the flesh and the law and sin, and through Him we are able to live in victory over these.

But this is conditional upon our daily communion, strenghtening by the Spirit, and our enjoyment of Christ. If we cease to pray and to commune and to feed on Christ daily, we lose contact with the Lord who indwells our spirit and we will find the flesh and sin to be quite formadibe masters. It is only by fellowship with Christ through the Spirit that we are able to experience His wonderful Life.

Graftedbranch

It's early again, prayed well this morning, will see what further embarrassment all this rambling might bring later on today.

What I like about the apostle Paul is that he was so real. He was honest about himself and so he could relate to our nitty-gritty, earthy struggles. He admitted that he was still attached to this mortal vessel with remnants of the old nature. Like the psalmists, he didn’t dwell merely in theological ideals. The Bibilcal writers often just poured their thoughts into words – and now it has become holy writ! Amazing.

I think we would do better if we could have the courage to be honest about ourselves rather than hide behind tidy spiritual formulas or obsessions about sins (neither brings us closer to Christ)

And so I guess my original question is really a call for personal honesty. Where am I at in my own faith walk? In order to do that I need some kind of markers. I guess the challenge for me is to find the right markers and throw away the wrong ones (old ones).
And for that I need divine enlightenment.

How does this wisdom and understanding bring liberty into our lives?

And so we must learn to recognize temptation and learn to resist it. The weaker we are in faith, the easier we will fall for the temptations. The more we lean on man (including ourselves) the more easily we will fall. We will find what we are looking for. To the extent that we are in bondage to law we will look for law to make us righteous.
Do we seek self-righteousess or Christ?

His burden is light...

We need to see our struggles through the eyes of faith. Surely we can we trust our Lord to see through us, and see us through - and lovingly steer us back on course.

I have decided to follow Jesus… (freedom)
The cross before me… (Christ’s life)
The world (with its old way of law) behind me..
Though no one join me..

No turning back
No turning back

Diane

Brother GB,

I don't profess to know it all and must admit that this death to self has not occurred but the Lord God of heaven has brought me to this wonderful place where he's going to finish the work. It's His work, so there's no room for boasting. All of the victories in my walk with Jesus have been his victories. There is no victory over sin apart from Jesus.

I know that many have debated whether sin is entirely eradicated or not and I'm not interested in a debate. I saw in my own heart that my pride rose up against what you said and I must repent. I don't profess to know everything and I ask that you would forgive me of this pride.

I'm tired of the intellectual debates. They never change the heart but that's a work of the Spirit. Oh it's a work of the blood of Jesus to change a man's heart and how precious that is.

My dear brother Joe sent this to me yesterday and although it's a long, it's on point with this thread. Blessings to you GB.

New Testament Salvation

John (the Baptist) came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins… And he preached, saying “There comes One after me who is mightier than I… I indeed baptized you with water {for the remission of sins}, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” (Mark 1:4, 7-8)

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His {“zoe”} life. (Rom. 5:10)

God was able to forgive people for their sins prior to the New Testament dispensation. Beginning with Adam, God began reconciling fallen man with Himself by looking forward to the shed blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 13:8) But He could not fill human beings with His life—the eternal life that saves people from their sin nature—until the Son had actually paid the penalty for sin and rose again into a glorified state.

He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. (Eph. 4:10)

While it is a wonderful thing to be reconciled to God through Christ’s shed blood, it is “much more” wonderful to be a partaker with Him in His overcoming life. He has come to enable His followers to reign over the fallen nature received from Adam. “For if by the one man’s offense death {spiritual death and sin} reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness will reign in {“zoe”} life through the One, Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 5:17) How shall we escape if we neglect this “much more” of salvation? (Heb. 2:3)

The Messiah came specifically “to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies {everything that binds us to sin}, might serve Him without fear {of the carnal nature}, in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75) He did not come to save us in our sins, but rather from our sins. “You shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” (Matt. 1:21)

Our heavenly Father began promising, in the Old Testament dispensation, to send a Messiah to provide this greater work of salvation. When Jesus came into the world, He began preparing disciples to receive this long-awaited “Promise of the Father.” And then, just prior to His ascension into a glorified state, He said, “Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49) Once He was glorified, He could begin filling each of His fully yielded disciples with His eternal “zoe” life.

The Old Testament saints were expected to live for God and His purposes. But they could not become holy in nature like God is holy. This initial work of bringing people under the restraint of His laws is what prepares them to receive the much more glorious work of entering into His eternal “zoe” life. Jesus has only promised to manifest His life within those who obey His teaching. (John 14:21)

Adam’s choice to follow Satan’s self-directed and self-exalting form of life caused God to put up a barrier that prevented man from coming into His heavenly Presence. Before this barrier could be removed, the Son, as the Second or Last Adam, had to overcome sin in the flesh and reestablish how God had originally intended for man to walk. His death, to pay the penalty for sin, is what removed the barrier and has made it possible to come back into God’s heavenly Presence. But one must choose to follow Jesus and walk as He did before they can come through the rent veil and begin sharing with God in His “zoe” life of holy love.

The only way to find Christ’s eternal life is by losing the old “psuche” life. (Matt. 16:24-25) It is in this sense that the temple of the body needs to be prepared according to God’s specifications and fully consecrated to the Lord before it can be filled with His glory.

The saints of old were able to memorize the Scriptures and submit to God’s word. But this way of conforming to certain laws does not make anyone like Him in His nature of “true righteousness and holiness.” (Eph. 4:24) This greater work of salvation was beyond their power. They had a fallen nature that prevented them from walking as God had originally planned for His human children. We can therefore find Him promising to send a Savior to change their inward nature so they would not profane His name among the nations.

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant… I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts {by the Spirit}… No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they all shall know Me {by sharing in the same “zoe” life}, from the least of them to the greatest of them… (Jer 31:31-34)

I will show the holiness of my great name, which you have profaned among the nations… Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes… And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws… I will save you from all your uncleanness… (Ezk. 36:23, 27-29 NIV)

Under this new covenant, each individual believer would have an opportunity to “know” the life of God within their inner being. In contrast to the Old Testament way of trying to memorize Scriptures, which never truly put the nature of the command within the heart, the Lord God Himself would reveal His life of holy love within the inner being of His submissive children so they could do by nature what the law required.

This Promise of the Father was not received by any of the Old Testament saints while living in this world. They died in the faith, not having received the Promise. They too had to wait for Christ to be glorified. Only then was He in a position to “fill” each individual who had chosen to respond to Him in faith with His life of perfect love.

And all these {the great saints of the Old Testament}, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise {the long awaited Promise of the Father}, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect {in the divine life of holy love} apart from us {in this age of fulfillment}. (Heb. 11:39-40)

Every Christian is to live through the life of the Son now that He is glorified. In contrast to living by law {by trying to conform to the code of written commandments using human effort}, which could not make anyone perfect in holy love, the Hebrew writer speaks of this new way. He says, “there arises another Priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life…for the law made nothing perfect {in holy love}; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.” (Heb. 7:15-16, 19)

Those who press forward in an obedient faith will be “filled” with Christ’s Spirit. He will manifest His divine life within them so they may “Know the Lord.” This is what makes it possible to “know the love of Christ which passes knowledge.” (Eph. 3:19) In other words, instead of trying to rely on what we can learn with our mind alone, which the Old Testament saints could do, we are to come to an experiential understanding of God’s heavenly life of love. It is only by becoming “one spirit with Him” that we can truly walk as Jesus did.

Once the Son—the Living Word—has made Himself known within our inner being, it is no longer necessary to depend on others to teach us how to live in righteousness. His indwelling Presence reveals true righteousness and holiness within our heart. We begin sharing with Him in His divine nature. (2 Pet. 1:2-4) “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Jer. 31:34)

Everyone within the Lord’s church, regardless of their position in the body, can come to know Christ in the power of His endless life. By choosing to live through Him and walk by His Spirit alone, we can depend on the Spirit to reveal within us everything we need to manifest His “zoe” life and godliness in this world. (2 Pet. 1:3)

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him… Love has been perfected among us in this…because as He is, so are we in this world. (1 John 4:9, 17)

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things…and just as it {the anointing} has taught you, you will abide in Him {live through Christ}. (1 John 2:27)

Not every church member enters into this New Covenant level of salvation. After trusting in Christ’s shed blood for the forgiveness of their sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, many of them end up trying to make themselves right. They are still trying to live by law through their own efforts. While law does have a limited glory in that it works well to help restrain the outbreak of sin, it cannot make God’s children like Him in holy love. The law does not change their nature. In other words, we cannot “know God” by simply trying to conform ourselves to His teachings.

The Galatian Christians had entered into this same error. They started out right by receiving the Spirit through faith. However, they had turned back to the old way of living by law in an attempt to make themselves right. Because they were being deceived into living through a self-originated form of life, they were actually separating themselves from the righteousness that comes from God by faith. Christ could not be formed in them until they had lost this self-originated form of life. (Gal. 2:20)

My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you. (Gal. 4:19)

You have become estranged from Christ {you are separating yourselves from His Spirit}, you who attempt to be justified by law {trying to make yourself right}; you have fallen from grace. For we {as Christians in this age of fulfillment} eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Gal. 5:4-5)

Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! {The law is designed to constrain sin and turn people to Christ for a complete deliverance from their sin nature.} For if there had been a law given which could have given life {the heavenly life that comes from God by faith}, truly righteousness would have been by the law. (Gal. 3:21)

God does require His called-out children to submit to His teachings. After receiving the Spirit we are expected to yield to all truth. But our hope is not in making ourselves right. We are expected to make every effort to respond to truth in the time of testing as a means for preparing the temple to be filled with God’s glory. But in the end, once the consecration is complete, it is looking to God in faith that will enable the temple to be filled with God’s glory.

There remains therefore a rest {of faith} for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works… Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest… (Heb. 4:9-10)

Admittedly, there have been people deceived by the devil because they tried to rest from their own works before they had properly prepared their body to be filled with God’s life of true righteousness and holiness. For example, there were people in the past who were classified as “Quietists.” Some were real Christians and some were totally deceived, as is the case even among holiness people today. The problem with many of the Quietists is that they attempted to enter into the rest of faith without ever coming under the law and acknowledging that God requires every righteous requirement of the law to be fulfilled. They ended up living in gross sin.

On the other extreme, we must not remain under law. The way of law will never make anyone perfect in love. And without perfect love, it is impossible to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. Our inability to truly conform to the law is what prepares us to pay the full price for the heavenly Pearl—Christ’s Kingdom-life. (Matt. 13:45-46) “But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ…” (Gal. 3:23-24)

After we have responded to Christ’s teachings, which will separate us from the ways of the world, we will be prepared to look to God in faith to fill the temple of our body with His glory. Only then can we truly expect to fulfill all the righteous requirements of the law.

For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them…” Therefore “Come out from them {the ways of the world} and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you…” Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Cor. 6:16-7:1)

He who has My commandments and keeps them {in the time of testing}, it is he who loves Me…and I will love him and manifest Myself {the Kingdom-life} to him. (John 14:21)

For the kingdom of God is…righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Rom. 14:17)

Put on the new man {the Christ-life} which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. (Eph. 4:24)

There is a need to keep coming back to the fact that God does not permit the self-originated works of the flesh to enter into His eternal kingdom. He will never permit anyone to glory in what they have done – in His Presence. That is why we must deny ourselves and follow Christ through the cross before we can find His heavenly life. And, as Paul learned, we will eventually discover that we can only find the true righteousness that comes from God by faith after we have chosen to count everything, including our most effect form of righteousness, as loss.

If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so…concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless… Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things {everything from the self-originated form of life}, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ, and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection… (Phil. 3:8-10)

True Christianity is quite simple in contrast to the religion of the Pharisees. Those who live by law naturally multiply their rules in an attempt to maintain certain behavior. They try to regulate righteousness through their manuals and denominational standards rather than leading people into a Spirit-directed way of life. If they would focus their attention on leading people into the fullness of Christ’s Spirit, His anointing would reveal within them the true righteousness that comes from God by faith. The anointing would teach them to live through His life.

Christians will inevitably go astray in various matters until they have truly died to self-will. Jesus said there was no unrighteousness in Him because He did not seek His own will. Choosing not to do anything out from Himself, He could be led by the Spirit of God in all matters. It kept Him in perfect harmony with His Father.

We too can be perfected in love and become one with each other by walking in the Spirit as Jesus did. He is now prepared to share with us the same glory He received from the Father. Only in this way can we all become “perfect in one.” (John 17:22-23)

The Word of God is constantly making statements that exceed what the human mind can comprehend. But that should not bother the children of faith. While “no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him…God has revealed it to us by His Spirit.” (1 Cor. 2:9-10) With this in mind, it may be helpful to look more closely at how God changes our very nature when He fills our heart with His life of love. It will reveal how love is able to meet all the righteous requirements of the law. First Corinthians chapter thirteen describes this love that surpasses knowledge. Not only does it provide the positive traits of the divine nature, it also eliminates the negative traits of the carnal nature.

“Love suffers long”—it removes all impatience.
“Love is kind”—it leaves no room for unkindness.
“Love does not envy”—all jealousy and resentment is banished.
“Love does not parade itself”—boasting and self-assertion disappear.
“Is not puffed up”—the prideful desire for honor finds no place in the heart.
“Does not behave rudely”—disrespect and foolishness is eliminated.
“Does not seek its own”—all selfish sin dies when self dies.
“Is not provoked”—self-centered anger and fleshly wrath will not be seen.
“Thinks no evil”—brooding over wrongs and uncharitable feelings are gone.
“Bears all things”—it does away with a complaining spirit.
“Believes all things”—there is no mistrust within the heart to destroy fellowship.
“Hopes all things”—despair, anxiety and despondency vanish.

God’s life of love “never fails.” When “that which is perfect” fills the heart, we have everything we need for life and godliness. (2 Pet. 1:3) Even those good things we once depended upon for our spiritual support and understanding become less important and begin to fade away. “But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.” (1 Cor. 13:8)

This lesson was given to a group of Christians who had many spiritual gifts. Unfortunately, they did not have God’s life of holy love filling their souls. And their focus on these lesser gifts kept them blinded to this greater truth about becoming vessels of God’s life of love. After instructing them to desire the best gifts, Paul then went into the greater truth of chapter thirteen. “And yet I show you a more excellent way.” (1 Cor. 12:31)

How did Paul know that the Corinthians were not yet spiritual? For one, He was unable to speak to them about the deeper truths they needed to understand. They could not hear what he was saying.

The language of carnal Christians and the language of spiritual Christians are like two different languages. In effect, carnal Christians still think and act like “mere men.” They therefore speak in the language of this world. They have not yet learned the language of the heavenly world.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able {to hear the deeper things of God}; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? (1 Cor. 3:1-3)

Here is where we need to see the importance of receiving the “much more” of Christ’s New Testament salvation. Quite early in His ministry we hear Jesus saying to His disciples, “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48) Even though they were still carnal and did not understand this heavenly language, He wanted them to realize that New Testament salvation takes people beyond the realm of human nature.

Jesus is the one who gave this command. It must not be ignored. Our Lord and Savior would never give a command that is beyond the realm of possibility. He definitely instructs us to possess some form of “perfection”—a perfection that somehow resembles the Father. And instead of simply rejecting His Word in unbelief, let us remember: “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:27) By living through the Son, we can become like our heavenly Father, in love, in this world.

And the glory which You gave Me I have given them…that the love with which You loved Me {perfect love} may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:22-23, 26)

Love has been perfected among us in this…because as he is, so are we in this world. (1 John 4:17)

The glory of God is revealed through His image of holy love. We were created in a way that permits Him to reveal His Glory through our mortal bodies. We are therefore expected, in this age of fulfillment, to reveal the same glorious life of holy love that Jesus revealed in bodily form.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels {weak human bodies}, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us…that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. (2 Cor. 4:7, 10)

Peter, speaking by the Holy Spirit, gives a similar command: “But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, ‘Be holy, for I am holy.’ ” (1 Pet. 1:15-16) Since God is holy, and He created us in a way that permits every believer to share with Him in His “zoe” life, we can become holy as He is holy by choosing to live through the Son. In effect, we must learn to live through Him if we hope to avoid living in rebellion against these clearly stated commands.

God expects us to be like Him in holy love. And our heavenly Father would never give these commands if He had not made a provision to enable us to do what He requires. As previously quoted, this was His promise: “Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes… And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws… I will save you from all your uncleanness…” God’s divine Presence within our inner being is what enables us to do by nature what He requires.

The path into this heavenly life always begins with a complete submission to all revealed truth. The Lord examines our heart in the time of testing to determine if we are willing to yield to everything He commands. While we will inevitably fall short of this heavenly standard while passing through the wilderness testing period, it will prepare us to pay the full price for the heavenly Pearl. When we have reached the point of choosing to “sell all” from the old self-originated form of life, Christ will manifest His eternal Kingdom-life within our inner being.

But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. {Our likeness to Him in holy love reveals the source of our life.} He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. (1 John 2:5-6)

It will also be necessary to use much caution in how we interpret what it means to be “perfect” like our heavenly Father is perfect. We know that our infinite God is perfect in everything. And we are finite beings with very limited knowledge and capacity. Each one of us will also have individual infirmities until we have received our glorified bodies. He therefore does not expect us to be as perfect in all things as He is. Such “perfection” is not intended for human beings.

But Jesus stills say, “Therefore you shall be perfect.” That word “therefore” refers to something that was said before this command was given. What does it mean? We will find that it refers to loving others with the same kind of holy love that God displays toward a sinful world.

But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. (Matt. 5:44-45)

We are to become sons of our Father in heaven by becoming vessels that He is able to use to display His life of holy love in this world. This command naturally takes away all hope of making ourselves “right.” It is a very high calling that leaves us without any choice but to learn how to live through Christ. As the anointing teaches us, we must abide in Him. It will entail walking in a way that permits Him to keep the vessel of our body filled with His “zoe” life from heaven.

For this reason I bow {in prayer, and I pray}…that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts {with His life of holy love} through faith; that you {may}…know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph. 3:14-19)

God’s life of love surpasses what can be grasped by the human mind. It is a supernatural love that needs to be revealed within our inner being by Christ Himself. It cannot be developed through our human thought processes. Even when it comes to having a life of holy love, God does not want anyone following the devil in His self-originated form of life. The life must be received by faith through a work of God’s grace.

God’s life of love is far above human love. The people of this world are capable of loving others. Even people who reject Christ can be found loving their families and friends. But God requires us to love even those who treat us poorly. And He wants us to do it naturally—not with a forced love that comes from human effort under law.

“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you.” (John 13:34) “As I have loved you” is the standard. To conform to the New Testament standard requires a new form of life and a new nature that naturally lays itself down for the good of others, regardless of how they treat us. And since we do not have the ability to naturally display this kind of love in our own strength, we will need to have the Living Word—Jesus Christ—residing within our heart.

By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. (1 John 3:16)

Are you willing to share with Christ in His heavenly life of love and walk as He walked? Remember, “He saved others; Himself He cannot save.” (Mark 15:31) You cannot live for yourself and live for the good of others at the same time. And He has only promised to manifest His reigning life within your heart after you have chosen to deny, and die, to your “psuche” life. (Matt. 16:24-25; John 14:21)

There is only one Christian life. And that life needs to be received from the Son. God “chose us in Him {to live through the Son} before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.” (Eph. 1:4) The life we must possess is to be found in Him. And it is the work of the Church to lead everyone into this same heavenly form of life before they depart from this world.

{This is} the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints {in the New Testament dispensation}. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory {the hope of revealing His image of holy love}. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present ever man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Col. 1:26-28)

This “love of God” that is “in Christ” is what truly sets us free from sin. Christ Himself cleanses us from all unrighteousness by showing Himself holy through us. “But now having been set free from sin, and having becomes slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.” (Rom. 6:22)

Now, whatever we may think about these words from Scripture—whatever our past failures—however impossible it all seems—we cannot deny that the Bible offers a salvation that enables Christians, in this age of fulfillment, to walk as Jesus did in holy love. And if we reject the requirement and the provision, we are effectively rejecting Christ, regardless of what we may profess with our mouth. May we all choose to die to the old “psuche” life and begin living through Christ’s eternal “zoe” life. This is the essence of New Testament salvation.

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savior. (Eph. 5:1-2 KJV)

The law of the Spirit provides what man needs in this world.

In Proverbs 2:

7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.

Who is 'He" in this section of Scripture?

What does it mean to be given the understanding of righteousness?

And how does this understanding liberate one from the law given on Mount Sinai?

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff,

Your questions led to some fruitful meditation...and perhaps a few more questions of my own. Sometimes, posting our opinions can come across like "teaching" or at least postulating some position. Well, I post the following hazy thoughts only in an attempt to draw out discussion from other able saints.

Jesus said that unless our ”righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven” (Matt 5:20). As a young Southern Baptist kid I grew up being taught that this verse was not talking about an actual experienced righteousness, but rather it was a codeword that meant the perfect imputed righteousness of Christ. Wonderful news I thought, yet what about the Sermon on the Mount, with it's Beatitudes, the exposition of the law, and the discourse on holiness? Jesus didn’t mention anything about imputation as he declared blessed are the meek and the poor in spirit. He seemed to imply that there really would be people who were meek and poor of spirit. Yet, as I child I was taught that these verses were simply foils for our spiritual pride, to would help us realize how hopelessly impossible God’s standard is, thereby humbling us to accept the Gospel of justification by Faith. Again, this certainly seemed reasonable to anyone equipped with the slightest modesty.

Yet we find Jesus publicly shaming the Pharisees…never mentioning Justification by faith. On the contrary he accuses them of something much more direct…he accuses them of observing the law only outwardly while resisting it inwardly. Like many of Jesus’ teachings there are two approaches to take with this episode in Matthew 23. One approach is to let the Sermon pass right by us, either spiritualizing it or isolating it within a dispensation not our own…that is to say that Jesus wasn’t talking to us, but was summing up the Old Covenant in total failure, before opening a new era. This approach says that Jesus’ main point was that the law was designed to help us see the futility of our own righteousness and make us ready to accept his atonement and imputed righteousness. Thinking this way, in my opinion may miss the mosaic (pun intended) portrait of God, that was contained in the Law. Again the promise of “imputed Righteousness” is glorious but I do not think we close the Bible at this point, satisfied with our forensic understanding of righteousness.

There is a second, less obtuse way to approach the Sermon on the Mount: square up and let it hit you full force with it's literal expectations. :-o Surviving the impact seems impossible, and certainly unprecedented in the 2000 years since Christ ascended. Can this approach be taken to it's fullest extent? I am skeptical and yet...

Having been Born Again, how can we ignore our thirst for living water, and our hunger for bread? Yet for much of modern evangelical Christianity, Jesus never really needed to grow up and offer his life giving words…most of our present Gospel could exist simply if the baby in the manger would have been discovered by King Herod, and carried straightaway in his swaddling clothes up to Golgotha to be crucified for our sins. Just what are redeemed Christians supposed to learn from Jesus’ preaching ministry? What man can ever live up to it’s standards? And if we dismiss the Sermon then what of Jesus’ complaint that the Pharisees observe the law but have no real inward righteousness? Are we to believe that we have dodged the Sermon on the Mount and outwitted the Pharisees simply by claiming Christian immunity, while remaining corrupt on the inside just like they were!? God forbid! Just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

So I have more or less wrestled with two approaches to righteousness, one on my left and one on my right. Yet, recently I have come to see a third focus... it is held together by more then my uneven success as a Christian, or by forensic or legal claims of positional righteousness, but by the knowledge of the Holy Spirit for His patient, painstaking, compassionate and transforming ministry within my being.

” For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God.more than burnt offerings.”Hosea 6:6.

And again in Ephesians 1...“…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him; having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

I am concluding that an understanding of Righteousness is not satisfied by the doctrine of imputed righteousness, nor is it limited to such goals of eradicating sin and doing good works. The understanding of Righteousness lies in knowing God as he wants us to know Him through the fellowship of Christ Jesus…not just His ways but His heart and thoughts. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

What the law began to do nationally, the Spirit achieves in inwardly. This intimate understanding, this indwelling fellowship with God through the accord of Jesus, liberates us not from the Spirit of the law, but from its stone letters because the author of the law Himself is writing it in our hearts, and teaching us about the Father. Even as we continue to stumble, our sin weary souls are drawn to the purity of the Beatitudes, if only to experience more of God's heart. And not only is He who is mentioned in Proverbs, the Spirit of Jesus living in us, teaching us about God’s heart from the inside out, but He also brings great power to raise our desires for righteousness. and what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might which he worked in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places.

In the end, I am not arguing of course against the liberating hope of imputed righteousness…but I am saying that this great doctrine is not the sum of the liberation contained in the Gospel. The Gospel is not to be filed under “justification” or “sinlessness” as is the preoccupation with many in the church today. Instead, I believe the Gospel is aimed at restoring fellowship between rebellous man and merciful God through Christ Jesus. More then the gift of forgiveness for my transgressions, the real hope of his calling is to once again hear the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day. This fellowship with God's Spirit is Jesus' greatest gift to me, the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints. The inevitable and irresistable outcome of this union is more then just an understanding of the stone tenants of righteousness, as 'do not touch this or taste that'....it is an invitation to touch and taste living bread so that we might know more of our God.

Today we may taste something of His righteous character, his great love, his just and perfect thoughts in very limited and imperfect portions. Yet it is these small tastes that nourish our souls from glory to glory through various trials, temptations, and tribulations, to press on towards that day when we will know Him as he truly is.

MC

Brother Mike wrote:

And if we dismiss the Sermon then what of Jesus’ complaint that the Pharisees observe the law but have no real inward righteousness?

Paul explains this a bit differently...

Romans 10:

2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Think of the time in which Jesus ministered to the nation of Israel. Jesus was condemned by the Pharisees because He did not obey their Talmud. Jesus obeyed the law given on Mount Sinai, yet disobeyed the laws created by men. So now look to what Paul says of this the Pharisees and their righteousness. Paul is pointing to the apostacy of the religious leadership of his day. He is pointing to the efforts of men obeying the law written by men.

2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

Here Paul states that these men lack knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness,

The lack of knowledge that Paul is point to is defined in the above Scripture.

They were ignorant of God's righteousness. They instead sought to establish their own righteousness.

Why did they lack the knowledge of God's righteousness?

"... have not submitted to the righteousness of God."

So here we find that they rejected what was available to them. What was available to them?

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Paul teaches in another place...

1 Corinthians 10

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

The law of the Spirit is God's provision for fallen man.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Mike wrote:

I am concluding that an understanding of Righteousness is not satisfied by the doctrine of imputed righteousness, nor is it limited to such goals of eradicating sin and doing good works. The understanding of Righteousness lies in knowing God as he wants us to know Him through the fellowship of Christ Jesus…

Prov. 10:20 \tThe tongue of the righteous is choice silver;
\tThe heart of the wicked is worth little.
21 \tThe lips of the righteous feed many,
\tBut fools die for lack of wisdom.

Prov. 10:24 \tThe fear of the wicked will come upon him,
\tAnd the desire of the righteous will be granted.
25 \tWhen the whirlwind passes by, the wicked is no more,
\tBut the righteous has an everlasting foundation.

Prov. 10:28 \tThe hope of the righteous will be gladness,
\tBut the expectation of the wicked will perish.

Prov. 10:30 \tThe righteous will never be removed,
\tBut the wicked will not inhabit the earth.
31 \tThe mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom,
\tBut the perverse tongue will be cut out.
32 \tThe lips of the righteous know what is acceptable,
\tBut the mouth of the wicked what is perverse.

In the above verses look to what righteousness brings to those who are declared righteous by God. We know that all men, in their carnal minds, are unable to know God. They are unable to please God. They are enemies of God.

With Romans 3 firmly cemented in one's mind, what then enables these men and women to know, speak, and be righteous?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Mike wrote:

What the law began to do nationally, the Spirit achieves in inwardly. This intimate understanding, this indwelling fellowship with God through the accord of Jesus, liberates us not from the Spirit of the law, but from its stone letters because the author of the law Himself is writing it in our hearts, and teaching us about the Father. Even as we continue to stumble, our sin weary souls are drawn to the purity of the Beatitudes, if only to experience more of God's heart. And not only is He who is mentioned in Proverbs, the Spirit of Jesus living in us, teaching us about God’s heart from the inside out, but He also brings great power to raise our desires for righteousness. and what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might which he worked in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places.

The love of the truth is powerful and able to set us free from the teachings of man.

Amen

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Mike wrote:

In the end, I am not arguing of course against the liberating hope of imputed righteousness…but I am saying that this great doctrine is not the sum of the liberation contained in the Gospel. The Gospel is not to be filed under “justification” or “sinlessness” as is the preoccupation with many in the church today.

Look to Proverbs for all the things that Wisdom empowers one to do...there you will find what God will do for those who ask...

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff

Mike, do you ever wonder if the Biblical writers ever felt that way?

Yeah, Paul's "[i]I regret, but I do not regret[/i]" letter comes readliy to mind.. To think about the pause in there before the happy conclusion. A bit different in scope but...

I think we would do better if we could have the courage to be honest about ourselves rather than hide behind tidy spiritual formulas or obsessions about sins (neither brings us closer to Christ)

It is just that, a life of honesty. Honest before God, honest about ourselves, before each other... especially over doubtful things, things we are still processing, grappling with.

I think we have to accept the fact that learning to walk in our God-given freedom is a very personal – and even lonely journey. We can’t expect our churches, our families, or anyone to join us. In fact, we will always sense the pull towards the old way, because the entire world operates that way.

23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,46 you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to you!47 How often I have longed48 to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but49 you would have none of it!50 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate! 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me from now until you say, 'Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!'"51 (Like this manner of translation!)(The NET Bible)

And this after all the [i]Woes[/i] ... True love if there was ever an expression of it.

I guess I am just tacking off your comment about our families to isolate it slightly ... To let them go to God, to entrust them into His care, to not defend ourselves or become insulted, nor to allow ourselves pity or become misled by our s-light suffering as Paul had it and either feel superior for it or depressed over it. It still stings, it still hurts, it hurts to love, it hurts that there is misunderstanding...

But there is also a peace that passages through everything, that 'evenness' that makes the right spiritual sense when we are walking in it... Perhaps that is it.

Some good words here sister.

Mike B wrote:

…. our families … [b]to let them go to God, [/b] to entrust them into His care, to not defend ourselves or become insulted, nor to allow ourselves pity or become misled by our s-light suffering as Paul had it and either feel superior for it or depressed over it. It still stings, it still hurts, it hurts to love, it hurts that there is misunderstanding..

I extract these words to emphasise that freedom often grows best in the soil of a heart imprisoned in adversity. The “slave” can rejoice in his freedom. The weak can rejoice in strength.

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor. 12:9,10

It is just that, a life of honesty. Honest before God, honest about ourselves, before each other... especially over doubtful things, things we are still processing, grappling with.

Just today a dear Christian mother/wife shared most honestly with me about her exasperation over her painful marriage caused largely by her unrepentant, hardened husband. She plans to remain committed to him just as God would desire, and now she is seeking measures to improve the relationship. When I asked her what she wished, she said, “I just want to be happy.” Of course, as a direct result of this thread discussion, I had a ready respond, and asked, “Who is the center? “ And she said, ‘Well, me, I guess”. This was precious honesty – so simple, but so true. That gave me the freedom to point out, “You need to repent of this idolatrous desire.” I may as well have offered her a holiday on a cruise – It relieved her of her endless futile efforts to bring about righteousness in her family. She welcomed it eagerly like a refreshing glass of water. And why not!

This is what it’s all about!

This is heaven touching earth.

Grace and love like mighty rivers
Poured incessant from above.
Heaven’s peace and perfect justice
Kissed a guilty world in love.

from the song, Here is Love

Diane

Compton wrote:

an understanding of Righteousness is not satisfied by the doctrine of imputed righteousness, nor is it limited to such goals of eradicating sin and doing good works.

I can’t add any more insight to what you wrote in your post, nor could I ever state it as thoroughly, but I am going to attempt to put some related thoughts into my own words – I guess as my way of trying to process it. I hope this isn't too cumbersome:

I think that these two faulty methods of achieving “righteousness” are difficult to detect because they get masked behind a huge pile of assorted religious trappings. Yet if you let all that stuff settle out, I suspect you end up with two little mounds - basically Calvinism-ish (imputed righteousness) and Armenianism-ish (earned righteousness). And mankind just swings back and forth between the two, as long as they reject the place of rest and freedom (God’s unmovable plumbline).

And when people get disillusioned with one of these forms because it’s not working, they swing to the opposite. That is an easy and tempting option in our modern day of ecclesiastical variety, where we will always find a religious group that defines itself largely by what it is not (the side we are trying to escape). So by and large, many remain either in denial or in endless effort – or maybe a blend of both.

However, these distinctions are really irrelevant when we see their common ground: Man’s desire to reject God and instead be God, and be his own savior – just like our first parents did in Eden. For, as long as “self” rules, then “self” must seek its own redemption –either by law or by cheep grace. Since the latter does little to curb the sin nature, laws of some kind end up being instituted - either spoken or unspoken. Legalism of some form falls on the heals of antinomianism.

It’s all man’s attempt to erase the guilt and sense of condemnation that lurks deep down. It should be obvious that guilt is the fuel that fires every form of religion, while evading the key solution:

Just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

” For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.”Hosea 6:6.

a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him; having the eyes of your hearts enlightened

This fellowship with God's Spirit is Jesus' greatest gift to me,

With the “enlightenment” of recent years, it would seem that we are indeed bringing the focus back to experiencing and knowing God. Just read the words of our praise and worship songs and observe our worship trends. There seems to be such a freedom from the law – in the collective experience of blissful “oneness” with the divine.

However, that whole trend is becoming a bondage worse than ever. Why, if you’re not raising your arms and if your eyes aren’t glazed over, you must surely be resisting the Spirit. So you play the game and “obey the law” in order to avoid feeling guilty for “rebelling” against God’s new move of the Spirit.

And… since this kind of “experiencing” God does nothing to develop maturity, legalism creeps in faster than ever. How can it not?

“Christ is the end of law.” We’re not! We are not the end of the law. We cannot bring about freedom from law, or fulfilment of the law. Without him, we remain forever a slave to our sins, along with the conviction declared by the law. We cannot absolve ourselves – ever..

Clearly, there is no escaping law unless one is truly trusting in God – that is, who he really is. How deeply do we believe it? God knows and deepens faith through Spirit conviction.

From time to time, a quiet inward voice of the Spirit parts the curtains and exposes a secret longing to be God and to redeem ourselves. And we admit, “Lord, you are right, I cannot save myself. I cannot release myself from this haunting sense of guilt for not measuring up to your righteous standards.”

And so we repent again, and cling yet more fervently to the all sufficiency of Christ and his righteousness. Well, that's the way it is for all who are real Christ-followers, I believe.

Diane

Thanks Jeff and Diane,

I appreciated your thoughtful posts and spent time considering your understanding in these areas! I'm sure these posts will continue to minister to me!

Blessings,

MC

Just today a dear Christian mother/wife shared most honestly with me about her exasperation over her painful marriage caused largely by her unrepentant, hardened husband. She plans to remain committed to him just as God would desire, and now she is seeking measures to improve the relationship. When I asked her what she wished, she said, “I just want to be happy.” Of course, as a direct result of this thread discussion, I had a ready respond, and asked, “Who is the center? “ And she said, ‘Well, me, I guess”. This was precious honesty – so simple, but so true. That gave me the freedom to point out, “You need to repent of this idolatrous desire.” I may as well have offered her a holiday on a cruise – It relieved her of her endless futile efforts to bring about righteousness in her family. She welcomed it eagerly like a refreshing glass of water. And why not!

Your second post ... My goodness you are bringing forth some tremendous things here.

Clearly, there is no escaping law unless one is truly trusting in God – that is, who he really is. How deeply do we believe it? God knows and deepens faith through Spirit conviction.

This is really the crux of the matter isn't it? I find it easier to be busy serving God than to simply trust God to do in me what I cannot do. And if I don't trust God to do what He says He will do in me, how can I ever trust Him for others?

In Christ,

Ron

Sister Diane wrote:

When I asked her what she wished, she said, “I just want to be happy.” Of course, as a direct result of this thread discussion, I had a ready respond, and asked, “Who is the center? “ And she said, ‘Well, me, I guess”. This was precious honesty – so simple, but so true. That gave me the freedom to point out, “You need to repent of this idolatrous desire.” I may as well have offered her a holiday on a cruise – It relieved her of her endless futile efforts to bring about righteousness in her family. She welcomed it eagerly like a refreshing glass of water.

This is an example of Scripture found in Proverbs...

Prov. 10:11 \tThe mouth of the righteous is a well of life,
\tBut violence covers the mouth of the wicked.

Prov. 10:20 \tThe tongue of the righteous is choice silver;
\tThe heart of the wicked is worth little.
21 \tThe lips of the righteous feed many,
\tBut fools die for lack of wisdom.

Prov. 10:30 \tThe righteous will never be removed,
\tBut the wicked will not inhabit the earth.
31 \tThe mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom,
\tBut the perverse tongue will be cut out.
32 \tThe lips of the righteous know what is acceptable,
\tBut the mouth of the wicked what is perverse.

Do you see how Scripture paints a picture of what we ourselves experience according to the law of the Spirit?

In Christ
Jeff

Sister Diane wrote:

I think that these two faulty methods of achieving “righteousness” are difficult to detect because they get masked behind a huge pile of assorted religious trappings. Yet if you let all that stuff settle out, I suspect you end up with two little mounds - basically Calvinism-ish (imputed righteousness) and Armenianism-ish (earned righteousness). And mankind just swings back and forth between the two, as long as they reject the place of rest and freedom (God’s unmovable plumbline).

Imputed righteousness is freely given based on the mercy of God. The law of the Spirit is available to all who call out to God...

Prov. 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,
\tAnd understanding lift up her voice?
2 \tShe takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
\tBeside the way, where the paths meet.
3 \tShe cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
\tAt the entrance of the doors:
4 \t“To you, O men, I call,
\tAnd my voice is to the sons of men.
5 \tO you simple ones, understand prudence,
\tAnd you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 \tListen, for I will speak of excellent things,
\tAnd from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 \tFor my mouth will speak truth;
\tWickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 \tAll the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
\tNothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 \tThey are all plain to him who understands,
\tAnd right to those who find knowledge.
10 \tReceive my instruction, and not silver,
\tAnd knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 \tFor wisdom is better than rubies,
\tAnd all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 \t“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
\tAnd find out knowledge and discretion.

The grace of God enable those who hear to grow in wisdom and understanding. The law of faith brings this to the believer.

Rom. 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We have access by faith into this grace in which we stand...this is where liberty from the law is learned in obedience to the law of the Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Do you see how Scripture paints a picture of what we ourselves experience according to the law of the Spirit?

Love that you often draw us out by way of presenting these things in the form of a question.
To see if I am tracking with you ...

Pro 15:23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!

Found it interesting that there is two somewhat parallel threads running right now, one on Romans 8:1 and this one that carries out primarily from Rom 8:2 [i]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/i] Something about the direction they are going ...

On a side note. Was listening to a remarkable series from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?op=&cid=129]Devern Fromke[/url] yesterday that he brings forth some incredible wisdom out of the life of David as the tittles suggest. But that is almost a bit deceiving, the tittles. What he ends up doing is drawing out spiritual 'principles' not 'biblical principles' per se and found it feeds directly off much of what is being discussed here, couldn't recommend it more highly, he gets right down to the heart of the matter.

There is something of a great importance that is being developed here ...

Imputed righteousness is freely given based on the mercy of God. The law of the Spirit is available to all who call out to God...

I really should have written "ASSUMED imputed righteousness" to express the (hyper?) calvinism-ish bent. I suspect such off-balance develops when professing Christians try to make God's truth accommodate their as-yet-unredeemed condition.
Diane

Brother Mike wrote:

To see if I am tracking with you ...

Pro 15:23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!

Yes.

Psalm 119

12 \tBlessed are You, O LORD!
\tTeach me Your statutes.
13 \tWith my lips I have declared
\tAll the judgments of Your mouth.
14 \tI have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
\tAs much as in all riches.

As the Lord prepares us for good works, we walk along paths of righteousness. There are times where we share words with others because He Himself has prepared us in the Scripture or in our meditations, hours or days before.

When we experience where this Wisdom comes from, and see the result of where we have been, understanding comes as we continue to grow into a fountain of living water...

Amen Brother Mike...

In Christ
Jeff

Phil. 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

In this section of Scripture, Paul speaks of his own understanding that God has given to him. Look carefully to these words...

"that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law,"

Paul understands that one can easily continue to be in bondage of the law given on Mount Sinai. He himself admits that the righteousness that comes of the law of Moses is without value. His prayer is that he continues to learn through faith, the rigtheousness that Christ teaches.

The law of faith overcomes the carnal mind. For the carnal mind cannot please God. How often do we come up empty in our own efforts? How often do we hurt one another, even with what we believe to be acceptable in God's eyes.

These experiences of failure and frustration paint a picture of the weakeness of the law of Moses because it is dependent on the flesh.

When one begins to understand what the law of faith brings, the substance of what we experience begins to introduce us to our Savior. We begin to understand how He is our Savior. We begin to understand how lost we are. We begin to see the wonderful truth of Scripture and then how His voice faithfully continues to teach us about what and how He goes about His day, caring for us.

The substance of this understanding creates the hope that becomes more precious than gold and silver. Because He has changed the substance of what we hope for, the path we begin to walk creates the evidence of His promise.

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff wrote:

As the Lord prepares us for good works, we walk along paths of righteousness. There are times where we share words with others because He Himself has prepared us in the Scripture or in our meditations, hours or days before.

May we remind each other that living by the Spirit is not a passive condition in which we wait for “something” to happen to us, or through us. Walking in the Spirit means we assume our own responsibility: We draw close to our Lord and seek him for enlightenment through his word. In that way we grow in his righteousness, and are equipped to be his workman. And those around us can’t help but be touched. It is the product of our walk in the law of faith.

On the contrary, a carnal life is like an empty cup of water – it has nothing to give. It is too self-absorbed in its pursuit of self-righteousness and the right answers.

The law of faith overcomes the carnal mind. For the carnal mind cannot please God. How often do we come up empty in our own efforts? How often do we hurt one another, even with what we believe to be acceptable in God's eyes.

These experiences of failure and frustration paint a picture of the weakness of the law of Moses because it is dependent on the flesh.

The following thought is rich – and I believe, the overall message of Psalm 119:

When one begins to understand what the law of faith brings,
the substance of what we experience begins to introduce us to our Savior.

We begin to understand [color=CC33CC]how[/color] He is our Savior.

We begin to understand [b][color=CC33CC]how[/color][/b] lost we are.

We begin to see the wonderful truth of Scripture

and then [b][color=CC33CC]how[/color][/b] His voice faithfully continues to teach us
about what and [b][color=CC33CC]how[/color][/b] He goes about His day, caring for us.

The substance of this understanding creates the hope that becomes more precious than gold and silver.

Because He has changed the substance of what we hope for, the path we begin to walk creates the evidence of His promise.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be filled. Matt. 5:6

Ps. 119: 18 Open my eyes that I may see
wonderful things in your law.

20 My soul is consumed with longing
for your laws at all times.

24 Your statutes are my ,b>delight;
they are my counselors.

32 I run in the path of your commands,
for you have set my heart free.

45 I will walk about in freedom,
for I have sought out your precepts

72 The law from your mouth is more precious to me
than thousands of pieces of silver and gold.

These are Old Testament verses. What law is the writer thinking about? What precepts, statutes, decrees, promises?

Diane

“When I was a child,
I talked like a child,
I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child.

When I became a man,
I put childish ways behind me.”
1 Cor. 13:11

Childish ways and childish reasoning make me think of self-centeredness, inability to consider the well-being of others, and inability to delay gratification. ie, “I want it NOW.”

We have already established that these are also the symptoms of living under the law. The adult child does not grow up into spiritual maturity. He behaves “properly” in order to win the approval of others and avoid punishment. But his heart is still self-centered.

If you’ve worked with children, you likely discovered that this describes them quite accurately. Also, they are very concerned about fairness and rules. They are really all little legalists. But they are not good at understanding the spirit of the law. Their minds cannot comprehend it. If they were free to reason out their own choices, they would likely choose selfishly (depending on their level of maturity).

I wonder, is that the childish reasoning that Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians? I think that the answer lies in the context of this epistle. Clearly, he was speaking to a childish church. Their various issues revolved around their immaturity.

These people had been offered the wonderful freedom of Christ. Yet they viewed their new-found freedom through childish reasonings – ie: what’s in it for me, what can I get away with, I want….

They totally misunderstood their freedom. They still had to do some mature reasoning, and realize that some choices are unhelpful, and some choices are enslaving. Paul explained:

"Everything is permissible for me" —but not everything is beneficial.
“Everything is permissible for me" —but I will not be mastered by anything. 6:12

They also had to become more other-centered in the exercise of their freedom.

Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 1 Cor. 8:9

Paul uses himself as an example of the mature exercise of freedom:
Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.” 9:19

It should stand out in our minds that Paul doesn’t impliment rules and laws to correct these people. He doesn’t set up a system of guidelines, a constitution, or a court system. That would merely keep them in their childish condition - bound by law. That may be what some of them, especially the leaders, would have craved - in order to squelch the problems.

Instead, Paul helps them develop mature reasoning, in order that they would be able to think through their choices themselves - without having to run to someone for help every time a silly little problem arose. (which is what they were doing)

They had to remember WHO they were:

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own… 6:19

For we were all baptized by one Spirit
into one body—
whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free
12:13

And them Paul explains what the expression of that relationship with God and one another would look like:

Love is patient,
love is kind.
It does not envy,
it does not boast,
it is not proud.
It is not rude,
it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil
but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects,
always trusts,
always hopes,
always perseveres.
Love never fails….

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.

But the greatest of these is love.

Cor. 13

Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave...

Is there a better "definition" of love then this? With love in mind we can't always measure "legalism" or "liberty" in our brothers or sisters motives and actions.

Is there a more loving, yet more paradoxical example of New Covenant liberty then this?

Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Or this...

He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek.Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

MC

Love is the outcome of exercising our God-given freedom. Love is our “trademark” If love is not “stamped” on our being, then we are just cheep imitations.

“A New Commandment I give you: love one another.
As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
By this all men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another.”
Jn. 13:34

“Freely you have received, freely give” Matt. 10:8

We are not giving freely when we give reluctantly, when we want to cling to our own reputation, our status, our rightful income, our dignity… or hold back something for ourselves..

We do not love freely when when we become impatient or fed up. Then our love is defiled - an indication that we are as yet flawed products of God's perfect grace - still in need of purifying.

That is where I see myself. My love has been polluted because of my reluctance to let go of all that I cling to for sense of security and well-being - all my idols. I realize that my love can only grow as my trust in God grows.

“Humble yourself…”

“Consider others better than yourself”

“You were bought at a price, do not become slaves of men.” 1 Cor7:23

EXAMPLES
Moses:
“Oh what a great sin these people have committed… But now, please forgive their sins – but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.” Ex 33:32

Paul:
“For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers…. “ Rom. 9:2

“Was it a sin to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel to God to you free of charge.’ 2 Cor. 11:7

Christ: ‘…may your will be done” Matt 26:42

Can you think of more examples of those who practised a life of love? It is worth considering how their freedom from law enabled them to love to the extent that they could.

Diane

Sister Diane asked:

Can you think of more examples of those who practised a life of love? It is worth considering how their freedom from law enabled them to love to the extent that they could.

The book of Ruth portrays this kind of love...

In Christ
Jeff

more examples

Diane

David's heart for his son Absalom...

In Christ
Jeff

Living and experiencing the freedom that is found in Christ brings a change to our understanding of what fills our life with peace and joy. As we live this life and respond to the upward call of the prize of God in Christ Jesus, we are taught by the Spirit the ways of God. These ways cover everything that we His creation, are given as a means to grasp what can only satisfy His creation.

The law of Moses points to all that is "worthless" in our carnal life. If we continue to dwell and seek to be righteous in our own understanding, we continue to find emptiness. But if we listen for His voice and hear and do, day by day, we learn of a life that has existed before the foundations of the world. That life is found in everything that Christ has revealed to man. The light of life is imparted day by day. It becomes a fountain of living water. The thirsts of the carnal mind and heart are supplanted by a new way of understanding our life, our world, our God.

Love as God imparts to the believer, fills like nothing else. Being filled with the Spirit actually brings us to learn to love as God loves. It is this work of the Spirit that changes the substance of what we hope for. It is this filling, this renewing, this washing, that brings us to yearn for more. This yearning softens the heart. The pride melts away as dross. The things that are worthless diminish. The cravings that once held us captive, that once held us in bondage to this world begin to subside in the prize of the all things found in Christ Jesus.

All these experiences are found day by day. They are not imparted to us without consequence.

John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

This is the promise to those who live day by day. Not according to the law of Moses, in that, it is weak because of the flesh. The law of the Spirit imparts to us the law of faith. We are saved by grace through faith. We learn to love because we begin to experience the fountain of life. Our spirit is renewed, our hearts are filled with gladness. We see the prize, and we see the worthlessness of our former life. It is this promise, this treasure that overcomes the world that has so corrupted our minds and hopes. We are given this life freely. The Lord is our salvation.

Salvation that is of the Lord will free us from the law of Moses. The grace is always there to wash away that which is corrupt. The question is do we seek wisdom or do we desire to remain simple and foolish.

We all suffer from this attitude, we all walk in the wilderness.

Prov. 1:22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.

Prov. 1:32 \tFor the turning away of the simple will slay them,
\tAnd the complacency of fools will destroy them;

Prov. 8:5 \tO you simple ones, understand prudence,
\tAnd you fools, be of an understanding heart.

In Christ
Jeff

r. Even as we continue to stumble, our sin weary souls are drawn to the purity of the Beatitudes, if only to experience more of God's heart.

Yes, not only exposing God's heart, but who He is in us. That is, what the beatitudes reveal to us is not only God's heart, but what Jesus Christ is to us. He is all these things to us. He is holiness, He is purity, He is rightousness. He is everything God wants from us.

Knowing more of God's heart in terms of what He wants is not liberating, the beatitudes applied to ourself is more condemning than the Law of Moses. But when we know the indwelling Christ and know we are liberated from the law, all law, the moral law, the cerimonial law, every law, then we can enjoy Christ as everything God requires of us, and this Christ is within us to be in us everything to us.

Graftedbranch

Yes, not only exposing God's heart, but who He is in us. That is, what the beatitudes reveal to us is not only God's heart, but what Jesus Christ is to us.

Knowing more of God's heart in terms of what He wants is not liberating, the beatitudes applied to ourself is more condemning than the Law of Moses.

I think I know where you are coming from...Yet, without staking any dogmatic banner here, I want to share how the Beatitudes have been of growing interest to me.

There is indeed a great peace afforded knowing that Christ is our sufficient righteousness. Still, as I get older I am wondering if we are more concerned with the legal merits of the deed to the house, rather then the experience of living in it! When I consider the Beatitudes as a revelation of Christ’ nature, I can not help but conclude we are to know more of these things then outward knowledge of them. To say that Christ is described by the beatitudes, but then to say that the beatitudes are beyond my experience implies that I we may not know who Christ is firsthand but rely on orthodox scholasticism.

Admittedly our swim in the Beatitudes is limited to brief plunges in shallow depths, but for those brief moments we may still know in part who Christ is through tasting for ourselves what it is to love our enemies or to thirst for righteousness. And when I love feebly, or work briefly, I become all the more humbled by God whose love is unfailing and whose deeds are wonderful.

Now I am forever thankful that Christ is my perfect righteousness, but I am learning to be equally thankful that I can know just a small portion of who he is through the inward changes he brings to all of us. Part of knowing is experiencing. If I say the word “apple”, most of us know what I am talking about not only by the outward image of a red softball sized object…but also by the experience of it's inward texture and taste. I believe that this is akin to how a born again Christian must learn to “know” Christ. Not from pages of proper scholastic doctrines of forensic righteousness, but by communion with that very righteousness. I want to stress that I am not suggesting a self-prescribed mystical journey or legalistic methodology whatsoever…for I think all Christians have a new nature, whether they have a theology for it or not. Simply put, we have been born again.

Experiencing aspects of the character of Christ must be part of what Paul meant when he talked about the New Man verses the Old. (Romans 6:6, Ephesians 2:15, Ephesians 4:22-24, Colossians 3:9-11)
Certainly the New Man enjoys positional security in Christ through faith…I rejoice daily at this promise. Yet, I also rejoice that my new relationship to the headship of Christ, being severed completely from the headship of Adam, has given me a new heart, one that is inclined towards God, and not hostile towards Him or His righteousness. Note that I would not resort to using extra biblical language such as “moral perfection” here. Any hard metrics we use for measuring outward perfection only seems gets us in trouble with one anothers different expectations. (We love saddling each other with our own imperfect demands…)I simply maintain that part of Christian liberty is learning what it is to be set free from those evil desires we know in our heart displeases God. If I did not think this was possible, then I do not see the reason for reading Christ’s words at all. The Gospels could be truncated into the passion chapters where Christ was killed to atone for my guilt.

Yet, as I believe Christ’s words, yea his life and not just his death, are meant for the Church, I then believe the Beatitudes were meant for the Church. Firstly to teach God to us (If you have seen me you have seen the Father…), but second to describe the new nature that has been placed in our beings that insures we will never be comfortable with our sins again. (…Since we have put off the old man with his deeds.) For me, I hope that Liberty in Christ is more then an expeditious release from all obligations towards God, but instead that we are being daily renewed for those obligations. Liberty is more then the relief granted through Christ’s death, but also the revival though Christ’s life, in both humble obedience, and ressurected glory...

I feel Pauls' references to the New Man, is in part a practical echo of that piercing and undiluted description of the 'Blessed' man in the Beatitudes. As such, I believe the Beatitudes are an important key to understanding the blessings of Christian Liberty in Christ. Paul's letters were spiced with the scent of the Beatitudes, and while even his imperfect and fleeting experiences with Jesus’ utter character in this life may not have justified him towards God, they were a vital result of Paul's ‘justifying’ faith in God. (Faith is certainly more then an agreement with unlived Pauline theology!)

So my growing conclusion (as a reformed reformed Calvinist!) is that Christian Liberty is not simply the welcome relief felt from a legal discharge of unpayable debt, but Christian Liberty is also a deed to a whole new nature that we must believe is ours and decide, in addition to rejoicing that our name and legal claim is registered with the courts…we must decide once and for all to move in and live in it! This is Liberty in the Spirit…

Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

MC

Knowing more of God's heart in terms of what He wants is not liberating, the beatitudes applied to ourself is more condemning than the Law of Moses.

However, if our foundation really (not ideally or theoretically) is Christ then the beatitutudes give us hope of an amazing Lord at work within and through us.

To a world so pained with the effects of selfish ambition, surely such a glorious standard of love and respect is also an incredible ray of hope. Christ says, there is a better way; there is a better view of God than is normally presented in our world. There is hope of pure clean water even if we only see and experience polluted water.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit….”What refreshing words of freedom - freedom from our pride, our fractured self-reliance, our worldly view of self-betterment.

“Blessed are those who mourn” … What freeing words for us in our stiff- upper-lip society that values the tough well-put-together outer frame. Christ gives us glorious freedom to weep for the sins of our dying world and also for our lost hope in self. We will indeed receive the comfort of God - even if no one else cares about our grief or comes along to comfort us.

And I could go on and on…... I could add that the entire Bible is torture to the law-dependant individual. It is even hellish (apart from some form of psychological redefinition). Christ himself is the worst form of condemnation any of us could ever experience - apart from his new life birthed within us. No wonder the Bible says he is the stumbling stone to all who reject him.

Still, as I get older I am wondering if we are more concerned with the legal merits of the deed to the house, rather then the experience of living in it!

Diane

I am writing from Hershey Pa...We have not settled into any permanent residence or job...

Sister Diane quoted

“Blessed are the poor in spirit….”What refreshing words of freedom - freedom from our pride, our fractured self-reliance, our worldly view of self-betterment.

I look to the Beatitudes as a fulfillment of the promise. The carnal man,mind cannot experience or manufacture what is promised. It is only when one finds his life, his walk in the Spirit, will one begin to realize what blessedness is for those who walk with Jesus.

A carnal driven man can only look to the beatitudes and say what a wretched man I am. A man who is led by the Spirit will fall down in praise in times when he himself finds moments in life where he recognizes the blessedness of what the carnal man sees as duty and obligation.

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff

Christ himself is the worst form of condemnation any of us could ever experience - apart from his new life birthed within us.

A carnal driven man can only look to the beatitudes and say what a wretched man I am. A man who is led by the Spirit will fall down in praise in times...where he recognizes the blessedness of what the carnal man sees as duty and obligation.

These are such wonderfully cogent statements of spiritual blessing to me. How blessed it is to be able to partake in the reality of Christ, and not just the theory of Him. Taste and see that the Lord is good...amen.

Have you ever read the four Gospels, and did you not observe in the life of Christwonderful instances of humility, love to God, love to religion, wonderful instances of zeal for God's glory, steadfastness in resisting temptations, entire trust and reliance on God, strict adherence to all his commands; astonishing instances of condescension, humility, meekness, lowliness, love to men, love to his enemies, charity and patience? Why this is holiness. When we imitate Christ in these things, then we are holy and not till then."

Jonathan Edwards

MC

Yet, I also rejoice that my new relationship to the headship of Christ, being severed completely from the headship of Adam, has given me a new heart, one that is inclined towards God, and not hostile towards Him or His righteousness.

Our problem still remains. Though our heart may incline toward God and His rightousness, yet we remain powerless to do it.

This is still the great delimna in Romans 7-8:3 Here we find 4 laws.

1. The Law of God
2. The Law of good in our mind (the leading part of our heart).
3. The Law of sin and death in our flesh.
4. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

The Law of good in our mind wants and desires the rightousness of the law of God. But alas there is a defferent law, a stronger law than that in our minds. LIke an ungly big brother, when we would do what we would like, this big brother exerets his stronger power and takes us captive.

What then will set us free from this captivity? It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. It is the resurrected Life of Christ who indwells our regenerated spirit.

The Christian does not live by his "new heart" with it's new desires. No, the Christian lives by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

This implies our organic union with Christ as branches grafted into the Rich Vine and partaking of the rich Sap of the Vine.

We go on, we bear fruit not be exercising our new heart. But rather by abiding in the Vine and deriving our LIfe from the Vine and enjoying the rich supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

IN salvation God regenerates our dead human spirit. And He put's His Spirit within our spirit. And from this INdwelling Spirit flow all the riches of Christ.

God has not made bad men good, He has made dead men alive. Alive not with a new natural Life but alive with His LIfe. We are begotton of God and are sons of God because we have the Life of God. And it is only as we enjoy the rich supply of this Divine Life, only as we are made partakers of the Divine Nature, do we experience the liberating freedom from the law of sin and death in our flesh.

It is only as we leart to touch and exercise our spirit to contact God, to drink of the Living Water of the Spirit in our spirit, to eat Christ as the Bread of Heaven and to be strengthend by His Spirit into our inner man to know Christ, to apprehend Christ, to experience Christ that He makes His home in our hearts through faith and fills us up unto all the fullness of God.

This is the only Christian Life and the Normal Christ Life. One not lived by our renewed nature but one lived by the Divine Nature of God inplanted within in HIs LIfe and lived by faith in the Son of God.

Gal. 2:20: "It is no longer I who live but Christ lives within me, and the Life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and Gave Himiself for me."

We do not live by a new nature created in us by God. We live by the Divine Natare implanted in us in the New Birth making us children of God with HIs indwelling LIfe. And only by living by this Life, by minding this Life, by walking in and according to this Life and by experiencing this LIfe do we overcome the law of sin and death in our flesh and find the just requirements of the law fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Graftedbranch

I am writing from Hershey Pa

I could add more comments about our USA trip experience – ex about the many Christian radio stations that we heard while driving……. (we don't have that in Canada)

This thread is a great place to return after all the excitment. There are nourishing words here – in my opinion, the kind of language was lacking on the radio stations (not to generalize)

The following words are sweet, reviving, and encouraging. They are words of life. Oh, that God’s people would speak them more – better yet, KNOW THEM MORE. This I believe is what PREACHING THE GOSPEL really is:

Taste and see that the Lord is good

It is only as we learn to touch and exercise our spirit to contact God, to drink of the Living Water of the Spirit in our spirit, to eat Christ as the Bread of Heaven and to be strengthend by His Spirit into our inner man to know Christ, to apprehend Christ, to experience Christ that He makes His home in our hearts through faith and fills us up unto all the fullness of God.

We live by the Divine Natare implanted in us in the New Birth making us children of God with HIs indwelling LIfe. And only by living by this Life, by minding this Life, by walking in and according to this Life and by experiencing this LIfe do we overcome the law of sin and death in our flesh and find the just requirements of the law fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

None of this glorious food from heaven can ever be replicated – even the best drama, the best music, lighting and sound effects etc, it’s all like Moses’ Tabernacle – a replica of the real – and yet, not the ultimate path to the real.

It is only when one finds his life, his walk in the Spirit, will one begin to realize what blessedness is for those who walk with Jesus.

When we imitate Christ in these things, then we are holy and not till then."

Diane

Grafted Branch...

One not lived by our renewed nature but one lived by the Divine Nature of God implanted within in His Life and lived by faith in the Son of God.

So many times I think we are talking past one another, yet I can see that we are talking about many simiar things. With that better good in mind, allow me to press you a little on the dualism (I feel) is implied in your expression here.

Certainly we agree that if the Spirit were somehow pulled out of a Christian, the righteous life in that Christian would leave. Indeed this is the problem with much of our society...a Christless morality and a spiritless Church. So when the Paul talks about a new Creation he is talking not about a creation infused with it's own independent self-sustaining live and righteousness.

However, because of some of the excesses I have seen in my own dispensational circles, I want to maintain that the heart that lives by the Spirit is different then the heart that doesn’t not. American evangelicals have become a vast superstructure of dualism that celebrates unlived righteousness through their pristine justification theology. They are not orientated to seek righteousness, but instead master doctrine by which they can ‘teach’ Christ, or they crave the 'anointing' by which they intend to simply "channel" Christ in their preaching, prophecy, and healing.

What is at stake here for me is this constant uhealthy reaffirmation that unreal is quite normal in actual Christian lives. The Gospel does not say that Christians secretly dream about the same dark things the world dreams about and that the only difference is that the Christian spasmodically channels the life of Christ.

I am not interested in controversy...just sore of heart from hearing too often that Christians can never approach the sermon on the mount except through mystical speculation and that desiring to live according to the Beatitudes is only self-righteous ambition. Just this week a pastor told me that the Sermon on the Mount is nothing more then a foil to help us see how hopeless it is to be be like Christ. Doesn’t this dispensational extremism break His heart? It does mine! And it’s very confusing! I certainly agree that only Christ truly lived these things seamlessly, but can't we hope for a seamless abiding in Christ? If so, how can an evil unrenewed nature even hope to abide in Christ? (Note that I am not implying that you ever said such a thing brother!)

In these days of Christian dualism (Spirit good/flesh bad) we need to stress that Jesus’ life is not only 'spirit' but an actual three-dimensional life that does not glide through our human nature effortlessly like a ghost through matter. The Gospel is not so intangible and mystical that it never touches the actuality of human nature.

Whether we attribute our new 3-D life to the miracle of Christ living in us, or Christ giving us a new nature, the effect should be the same. We will want to conform to Christ inwardly as well as outwardly. This won't be a religious toil but a good thing to us.

And this disposition to love God and his ways is all I mean when I say "new nature."

My particular statements are not concerned with finding my own inherent self-sustaining righteousness, as if a spark from God turns our hearts into little righteous self-burning power plants that no longer needs Jesus every hour! But I do believe the Gospel offers a true desire for Christ that is deeper then my intellectual and willful efforts, but from the very matrix of the heart. Its origination is in an area that is beyond human manipulation and must be wrought about by God! The battle against sin and death within us may still rage, but the very real and eternal part of us has switched sides in that battle.

As always I am feeling foolish for all my forensic talk on these things. In light of the change experienced in many Christians, it is easy to see why many New Creations, amazed that they sincerely desire God, burden themselves with trying to understand the spiritual circuitry of that love...I am the most guilty of this. Instead of refining my beliefs with talk...I talk myself out of God's promises because I won't believe until I see the wiring diagram for myself! So... I'll just end with this quote from Oswald Chambers who expresses very well perhaps the only concern I really have here.

Beware of refining away the radical aspect of our Lord's teaching by saying that God puts something in us to counteract the wrong disposition---that is a compromise. Jesus never teaches us to curb or suppress the wrong disposition; He gives a totally new disposition, He altars the mainspring of action...someone cannot imitate the disposition of Christ it is either there or it is not. When the Son of God is formed in me, He is formed in my human nature, and I have to put on the new man in accordance with His life and obey Him.

However Christ lives in us, I am glad he does! Blessings,

MC

In these days of Christian dualism (Spirit good/flesh bad) we need to stress that Jesus’ life is not only 'spirit' but an actual three-dimensional life that does not glide through our human nature effortlessly like a ghost through matter.

"No good thing dwells in me..." mmmmm What does that mean? Do we believe that we are rotten to the core, and excuse our fleshly responses, while imagining another person - ie a divine presence mysteriously at work too. Sounds like a great way to live in denial.

My mind is wandering here. I think of many of the words of our modern prayer-songs where we ask God to make us holy, make us kind, make us loving, give us unity, give us peace ….. And so passivity develops as we await this magical transformation to happen to us (ie - revival???).

Such a perception disables us from the ability to think and make our own choices. (fearing that could be the flesh at work) But get this: It can also absolve us of personal accountability in bringing about these godly qualities that we are praying for.

To be honest, now that I think about it, I went through a time of confusion in this area (maybe somewhat still there) – trying to understand the difference between living by law and living by the Spirit. Maybe it was a case of trying to find the right formulas to plug in to. Now I see it as a preoccupation with self - trying to get rid of it but ending up thinking about it.

It would be worth taking time to learn to distinguish God’s role and our role.

In salvation God regenerates our dead human spirit. And He put's His Spirit within our spirit. And from this INdwelling Spirit flow all the riches of Christ.

4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

What has God given us?
His divine power = his Spirit... We participate... we must live the life....

What should we be praying for?
What should we be taking our own responsibility for?

just some things I'm wondering about.....

Diane

Do we believe that we are rotten to the core, and excuse our fleshly responses, while imagining another person - ie a divine presence mysteriously at work too. Sounds like a great way to live in denial.

My mind is wandering here. I think of many of the words of our modern prayer-songs where we ask God to make us holy, make us kind, make us loving, give us unity, give us peace ….. And so passivity develops as we await this magical transformation to happen to us (ie - revival???).

Ooohh, you are hitting some nails here. Think a great deal of Oswald Chambers expressions are towards this stripping away of an ideal that things happen by passivity over getting our natural bents and proclivities [u]under[/u]... [i]His[/i] control, transformed [i]into[/i] the spirtual...

One difficulty and misunderstanding is that word "work" or "work's". There is far too much exhortation to get our spiritual\
atural 'hand's' dirty in this business. Things to be cast down, things to be repudiated, forsaken and those that are too be enhanced and ....

[i]worked on[/i]

"Work out what God has worked in" as he often put it.

As far as revival is concerned ... So much that is entwined, from one standpoint would bounce off Richard Owen Roberts sentiment of "[i]Who wouldn't want revival[/i]"? Meaning in the sense of Heaven drawing closer to earth, God's Presence [i]known[/i] and 'felt' as it were. The very One we long for ... What greater joy, even in the midst of the very present fright and awe ... back to exposure again. The outworkings and straightening out of so much misrepresentation by a divine visitation another highly sought after prayer for revival from my perspective.

But as something to desire as a cure all for passivity, for not doing what we ought to be doing on our own .... Oh, I couldn't agree more!

Work out what God has worked in" as he often put it.

I think he was quoting Paul in Phillipeans. "Work out your own salvation... for it is God who is at work within us to will and to work for His good pleasure"

I like what one said, "taste and see that the Lord is good".

What is lacking in most who have difficulty in comprehending the "dualism" which emerges is a little experience of Christ as our indwelling Life.

As are most truths which have two sides, the presentation of one side leaves some with a false conclusion. Just as to present clearly "justification by faith" as is clearly presented in Roman's 5 leaves many with the conclusion, "let us sin that grace may abound". But Paul does not back up and retract his unveiling of justification by faith, but rather goes on to present our organic union with Christ as both the motive and source of personal holiness and an overcomming life.

Wheras one group will react against the teaching of the Spirit and the indwelling Christ by giving themselves to self effort, other's will take this divine truth and reality and become passive waiting for God to move them. This also is a wrong position to take.

If one will take the time to pray through Galatians 2:20 instead of reading it with one's own concept in mind, you find that "It is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me". Yet, Paul also tells us how He lives by Christ. "The Life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me".

Paul was not passive but exercised his spirit and exercised his whole being. But he did so in faith. Faith in the son of God. We first need the revealtion to know that Christ is within us and is ready and availibe to be everything to us. We need the Spirit's enlightment to see Christ and what He is to us. And when we see, we act according to what we know. We know He is within us and we know He is everything we need. And we reckon on Him to be in us all that He is. And as we go on day by day, the Spirit shines in us, exposes us and our Self effort, reveals Christ to us as the answer to our need, He gains something in us and we gain more of HIm in our experience. We learn to live by Christ.

The basic facts are that the only thing of genuine value in the Christian Life is Christ in us. And only what is the product of the Spirit's forming of Christ in us is acceptable to God.

John 15 and the organic relationship of the believers to Christ as illustrated by Christ in the Vine tree show us clearly that "apart from Me you can do nothing". And that fruitfulness in the Christian Life is by abiding in the Vine and He in us and therby deriving from the True Vine the rich Sap of the Spirit.

The whole of the New Testament is related to our union with Christ, His indwelling Life and our becomming by the Spirit's work within us sanctified, transformed, and conformed to His image. As Paul in 2 cor. says, "We all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit".

Only the Spirit can transform us into the image of Christ and that only as we behold Him through the Word (as the context of 2 Cor 3 reveals) as the Spirit unveils Him to us. And as we see Him, we are transformed into the same image by the Spirit who indwells us. Not all at one time. But little by little, day by day as we behold Him, as we are exposed, as we see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, we see some aspect of Him by the Spirit's light in the Word, we call on Him, we apprehend and we are transformed. He is worked into us and we become constituted with Him. And we live Him out and we know it. We are conscious that there is another Life at work within us and we know it is not of us but it is Christ in us.

What we need is revelation of the Spirit first as to His indwelling us. We need to spend time comming to the Lord, praying through and over His Word and asking the Lord to reveal these things to us and not take for granted that we know them.

We need to pray and ask the Lord to strengthen us by His Spirit into our inner man that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith... This is something the Spirit does in response to seeking and prayer. Our need here is not to understand a doctrine, but rather to be strengthened by the Spirit into our inner man. IT is not to get a hold of a concept, it is something the Spirit does strengthening us to apprehend these things. We can think about them all we want but apart from the Spirit's strengthening and unveiling, we cannot know them.

The proper balance between activity and dependance upon Christ as our Life is one which we have to learn by experience. It is something we all have to dive into and learn by making mistakes, by being corrected, by being taught by the Spirit.

Learing to live by Christ is not something we learn in a sermon and just do. We have to take the time daily to contact the Lord, to pray, to experience Christ, to call on Him and cry to Him to teach us to live this Life. We are no more capable of just taking up a teaching and going with it than the man in the moon.

We need to spend time in these things. We need to pray over these devine truths. We need to take the verses in the New Testament which deal with these things and pray about them, ask the Lord to lead us into them. To give us understanding, to work these things into our experience. Not in a passive way but by beseeching Him, by opening to Him and by exercising our spirit to call on Him and pray. And we need to give ourselves to studying these things.

I can testify I came to a place where I said, "Lord, either these things are true or they are not. And either they are true for me or they are not. If they are not, then I might as well just give up and live like the world. But if they are, I want to know them. Either I can know the Spirit's work in me, either You will bring me into the reality of these divine truths or you won't. Either Roman's 8 is for me or it is not.

When I took this position, I immediatly began to find a response in my spirit. The Word began to open to me. I had the Spirit's testimony in my spirit and the Lord began speaking to me through His word. And I began to experience something of the reality of these things in a genuine way. The bible came alive and as the Lord said in John 14, "in that day you will know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you".

Graftedbranch

Sister Diane wrote:

To think… we were just in Hershey on Wed! The Hershey Chocolate Factory was our first culture shock experience of our Pennsylvania trip. We are not accustomed to such high intensity, high energy, loud, fast level of stimulation. (We were expecting a tour, rather than an amusement park-type venue) We also visited Amish country (What a contrast!),

Hi Sis...

The first brother that I met at my new job here at the Hershey Medical Center is struggling with the concepts that are contained within this thread. According to his testimony, he was raised up in a strict German holiness type church. He spoke with sorrow for all the souls that struggle under leagalism. He was frustrated and lonely.

In two days of sharing we have been blessed by each other. Our hearts have quickened. I myself have been restored by the fellowship. All the work of the relocation became a wilderness experience in itself.

Song 8:

5 \tWho is this coming up from the wilderness,
\tLeaning upon her beloved?
\tI awakened you under the apple tree.
\tThere your mother brought you forth;
\tThere she who bore you brought you forth.
6 \tSet me as a seal upon your heart,
\tAs a seal upon your arm;
\tFor love is as strong as death,
\tJealousy as cruel as the grave;
\tIts flames are flames of fire,
\tA most vehement flame.
7 \tMany waters cannot quench love,
\tNor can the floods drown it.
\tIf a man would give for love
\tAll the wealth of his house,
\tIt would be utterly despised.

May we always lean upon our beloved.

God Bless
Jeff

The first brother that I met at my new job here at the Hershey Medical Center is struggling with the concepts that are contained within this thread

He spoke with sorrow for all the souls that struggle under leagalism. He was frustrated and lonely.

The “apple” from the tree seems so appealing at first: Why! We can manage our own lives and chart our own path to God! We can define what is good and evil! We can make our own laws and we will live by them!

For many this apple goes down tasting sweet. But it eventually turns sour. It destroys the soul, and pulls everybody else with it. I know of no more “pushy” evangelism than this kind of “gospel”. It tries to capture its victims and hold them in its constricting web for the rest of their lives. Yet it is the way of death.

“Those who have faith are blessed…. “ Gal. 3:9

“Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even thought you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your soul. 1 Pet. 18

Diane

This is copied from another thread...but it speaks to this thread as well...

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth
and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store
up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for
where your treasure is, there your heart will be also (Matt 6:19-21).

"SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS and give to charity; make yourselves
money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven,
where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. For WHERE YOUR
TREASURE IS, there your heart will be also" (Luke 12:33-34).

In both of these sections of Scripture we find the word "treasure." The carnal mind has not the capacity to understand the treasure that is of heaven. The carnal mind is subjected to that which is seen, that which is created.

Likewise we find other Scripture which point to the same precepts.

Luke 14:25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, “This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

I have found myself counting the costs. I have ventured in my flesh seeking to conform to the precepts commanded of us by Jesus. I myself have found that frustration and striving is all that comes from living according to the commandments. And this is expected of all who come to seriously consider the demands of Scripture in our lives. We have been corrupted by the treasures that the world seeks. We have been taught that gold and silver can bring security and gladness. We are bombarded by Madison Avenue's messages which glorify the creation and not the Creator.

Jesus defines for us the nature of worldly treasure. It is clearly defined throughout the OT and NT. The carnal mind is given a clear picture of what Jesus demands of us. However, the Scripture alone, does not enable the carnal mind to understand the "heavenly treasure." Thus man is trapped and convicted by the law of God.

So attitude or oaths alone lead man to dispare. Legalizism takes root. Those who continue along this path might well be spoken of by Paul when he cries for his own people.

Rom. 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Do you hear and understand what Paul is declaring here?

Read each word, contemplate the sequence of thoughts, seek Wisdom.

In Christ
Jeff

Now there is a more excelent way. A way that looks to God for deliverance of coventousness...

Psalm 119:33-37,

Teach me, O Lord, the way of Your statutes, and I shall keep it to the end. Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart. Make me walk in the path of Your commandments, For I delight in it. Incline my heart to Your testimonies, and not to covetousness. Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things...

In this section of Scripture the Psalmist prays that God will deliver him from covetousness. Look carefully to the last verse...

"Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things"

The Lord through Scripture, and the work of the Holy Spirit replaces the things that we once treasured with things that are of His kingdom. This is the "way of His statutes."

In another place in Psalm 119:17-19,

"Deal bountifully with Your servant, That I may live and keep Your word. Open my eyes, that I may see Wonderous things from Your law. I am a stranger in the earth; Do not hide Your commandment from me..."

The treasures of the kingdom replace the treasures of this earth. Only by the bountifull grace of our Lord are we able to overcome those things which binded us to this earth. Look closely at the last part of the verse..."I am a stranger in the earth"

What does this say about the things this Psalmist values?

In Christ
Jeff

In spending some time reviewing recent posts, Grafted Branch wrote:

Only the Spirit can transform us into the image of Christ and that only as we behold Him through the Word (as the context of 2 Cor 3 reveals) as the Spirit unveils Him to us. And as we see Him, we are transformed into the same image by the Spirit who indwells us. Not all at one time. But little by little, day by day as we behold Him, as we are exposed, as we see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, we see some aspect of Him by the Spirit's light in the Word, we call on Him, we apprehend and we are transformed. He is worked into us and we become constituted with Him. And we live Him out and we know it. We are conscious that there is another Life at work within us and we know it is not of us but it is Christ in us.

This thought that you developed reminded me of this Scripture.

Proverbs 8:

32 \t“Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
\tFor blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 \tHear instruction and be wise,
\tAnd do not disdain it.
34 \tBlessed is the man who listens to me,
\tWatching daily at my gates,
\tWaiting at the posts of my doors.
35 \tFor whoever finds me finds life,
\tAnd obtains favor from the LORD;
36 \tBut he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
\tAll those who hate me love death.”

All those who listen and do not disdain instruction will come to recognize the Holy One.

Proverbs 9:10

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

As you wrote:

He is worked into us and we become constituted with Him. And we live Him out and we know it. We are conscious that there is another Life at work within us and we know it is not of us but it is Christ in us.

Knowing the Holy One is understanding.

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff