Romans 8:1

Interesting fact I noticed,

Romans 8:1,
"1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." -NASB (and all translations that rely on the Alexandrian, Minority Texts)

Romans 8:1,
"1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, [b]who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/b]"-KJV (and all translations that rely on the Byzantine, Majority Texts)

That's quite a difference between the texts! I've heard 8:1 quoted by a dear brother and friend of mine, to make the point that there is no condemnation for the believer. But I disagree with him on this, though im not the type to make a stink out of it.......

The KJV (Byzantine text) seems to have a clear definition of what Paul is really saying-- that those who are "in Christ Jesus" are those "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

I think there is no doubt about it that it is possible for the Christian to walk according to the flesh, atleast for a season. Which would also mean that it is possible for the believer to fall into condemnation.

That is, unless you believe that last part of 8:1 was added into the Byzantine later, and not originally what the Apostle Paul wrote. But I don't think so, I think it was removed from the Alexandrian text.

Lets consider the philosophy of a text mutilater for a moment. Both adding and subtracting from God's Word is EVIL, no doubt about it. But put yourself in the shoes of a text mutilator who was a copyist for a moment and think.

What reasons could you have for "adding" the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' to Romans 8:1?

And what reasons could you have for removing the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' from Romans 8:1?

I can't see why someone would add that last line for the life of me! But knowing the wickedness of the carnal human heart, I can see plenty of reason(s) to remove that last line!

(Not to mention Alexandria was the homebase of the Gnostics!)

What do you think?

+1 Points for the Byzantine, Majority, "Textus Receptus"?

What do you think Paul meant by walking "according to the flesh"? And "after the Spirit"?

And is it possible for the Christian to fall into condemnation? And what do you think Paul meant by "condemnation"?

(Lastly-- let's try not to go too far down the rabbit trail of 'byzantine VS alexandrian', unless it directly relates to Romans 8:1.)

Thanks, Adam

Hi Adam,

Wow, when you raise questions for discussion you ask a bunch of important ones! I wanted to repsond to one of your questions. Forgive my longer then normal response to this 2-part question…but I feel it is an important topic.

And is it possible for the Christian to fall into condemnation? And what do you think Paul meant by "condemnation"?

I would think that Paul means something quite serious and dreadful by the word "condemnation." He is referring to the divine verdict, or judgement, that man has failed to live according to the responsibility given to him by God. Techincally speaking, condemnation is not the sentence or punishment, but God's perfect and holy judgement that men do indeed deserve punnishment.

Consider the word condemnation in this context.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

So, according to Christ himself, all men are already condemned. The verdict has been handed down that men are guilty of loving darkenss more then light. Sometimes we argue over the doctrine of "original sin" but none of us can dispute the unavoidable reality of “original condemnation.” Every person alive is born into this total and complete condemnation untill “…whosoever believeth in Jesus should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Can a Christian, having followed after Christ, re-enter into their original condemnation? Our answer depends entirely on our concept of salvation. I feel scripture teaches that being born again is a transformation of our character and will through an inward death, a baptism into the Holy Spirit, and a resurrection into the person of Jesus Christ, who is God’s Word.

Furthermore I believe this incredible position in Christ’s person is just that…it is a position that does not depend on my feelings, experience, or good works to make it so. (Though we are exhorted to look for assuring evidence of this transaction, the assuring evidence we discover does nothing to secure the fact of this transaction.)

Here are some scriptures that lead to believe the way I do.

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13)

"When he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3)

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9)

Obviously my understanding is that biblical salvation is a change in our inner “substance”…our natures are clearly affected by a union with the Spirit of God. We remain man but we are the “New Man.” This inward change, which may be obscured often enough by my own fretting, is never the less the reason for my faith. This faith is different then placing my hope in:

a) a positive balance of works vs. sin for salvation. (False repentance or righteousness)
b)a mental condescension to Gospel theory for salvation. (False faith or profession)

I like what Watchman Nee says about the Christian. “If Christians fight for victory they can never win, but if they fight from victory they can never be defeated. Many times, Christians go through unnecessary periods of defeat because they have a concept of the Gospel that they are responsible to save themselves. (Yea, though few would admit this hopeless strategy. We are experts in the language of justification…but not the hope of it.) So when some fall, they stay down because they feel they have lost their hope…and many of their Christian friends have no help for them because they also are secretly looking to their own lives, instead of the life of Christ, for justification.

The reason I am going through these suppositions is to explain why I feel the answer to your question is “No”: a true Christian can not re-enter into condemnation because he has been changed. Our salvation is not based on us holding fast to a creed. Salvation is the person of Christ holding onto us…that is our only real creed! Abiding in Christ is absolute in it’s power. Pauls’ words to Timothy apply to all men.
This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

So, what I hear there, is that the plumbline we measure salvation by is Christ. Yet this is not some cheap mantra, because if Christ is surely not our ambition, then we are still in love with the world. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him"

Sadly, we do not always taste victory over this sin or that doubt...this much is self-evident. Still if we endure in Christ, which is something quite different then enduring through a sermon every Sunday, we will live and reign with Him. I say this because to endure with Him, means to abide with Him, which will most certainly take it's positive toll on our lives. In other words, if we trust in his power, not giving up, and continue to walk with Christ, we will see outward change in ourselves!

Now I used to find it disturbing to read, that he might deny us if we deny him. Yet I realized that this scripture is referring to those who never recognized the worthy Lordship of Jesus for themselves...they treated Him like a stranger...and so he will do likewise.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

How can a person return to the world, if in fact he has never left the world? Conversely, how can we endure with Christ, if we never knew him in the first place? And how can a person, once they have known the Lord, ever say they have not known him? All of these absurdities become commonplace today, I believe, because we have a commonplace anemic conception of “believing in Christ.” The true Christian is “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

This crucial aspect of the Gospel, is neither Arminian or Calvinistic in it’s origin. It is a mystery that is most practical to every single Christian.

Now, once I remember an unsaved colleague at work who knelt in an empty office with another Christian friend of mine, and with tears in his eyes confessed his need for Jesus. When I heard that he became a Christian I was of course glad, because he and I had talked about these things many times before. Yet, a week later, when we were having lunch, my joy turned to concern. When the topic of sexuality came up, he seemed surprised that I would assume he was quitting his immoral weekend behavior. I explained to him that God’s word was very clear about fornication! At this, my friend looked downcast because he wasn’t going to be following Christ after all. A month later the whole event had been “forgotten”. From then on whenever I would talk to him about the Lord, he simply smiled at me, like I was a child that never grew up in the real world, which told me he simply never tasted the living hope in Christ. To him my hope, my “claims”, seemed like pitiful unreality because he had said the “prayer” and nothing happened.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19)

I learned two things from that experience. One, belief and repentance are mixed into the same hope in the heart for a Christian. We may emphasize one over the other in various stages of our walks, but I believe they are never separate. To dissect one from the other, and analyze them independently is futile academic method that will always produce misunderstanding. (Try understanding fire on just the basis of either oxygen or fuel by themselves.) Two, I realized I wasn’t taking my own walk serious enough, because untill the lost taste and see for themselves that the Lord is Good, we might be all they have to taste. (Sobering.)

In conclusion, condemnation is reserved for those who have not been born again. I feel if we understand the biblical history of being born again, we will discover that such a change is unimaginably deeper, and infinitely more robust then our own trembling definitions of faith and works…and as such I do not believe that a true born again Christian can return to condemnation.

Well, I hope this has been useful. I doubt I have the best answer to your important question. I only attempted to explain my own journey on this topic.

Blessings,

MC

Hi Adam,

Here is an old related thread you might be interested to glean through; [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5514&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Live / Walk in the Spirit[/url]

Now, once I remember an unsaved colleague at work who knelt in an empty office with another Christian friend of mine, and with tears in his eyes confessed his need for Jesus. When I heard that he became a Christian I was of course glad, because he and I had talked about these things many times before. Yet, a week later, when we were having lunch, my joy turned to concern. When the topic of sexuality came up, he seemed surprised that I would assume he was quitting his immoral weekend behavior. I explained to him that God’s word was very clear about fornication! At this, my friend looked downcast because he wasn’t going to be following Christ after all. A month later the whole event had been “forgotten”. From then on whenever I would talk to him about the Lord, he simply smiled at me, like I was a child that never grew up in the real world, which told me he simply never tasted the living hope in Christ. To him my hope, my “claims”, seemed like pitiful unreality because he had said the “prayer” and nothing happened.

[i]They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.[/i] Luk 8:13

[u]If[/u] we endure

Continuity, continuance ... consistency, not in 'perfection' but in the sense of always getting back up again, whatever the case;

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? Even so run; that ye may attain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air:
1Co 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Still have the reverberations of Richard Owen Roberts drifting through;

"[i]It's not how one begins the Christian life, but how he finishes.[/i]"

This is largely in response to the idea of the OSAS model but it also has lead to another range of thought of late: Been musing on just how much unnecessary trouble we can bring upon ourselves and others even, by way of casting so much into the future by a want of certain settlements today.
It is a bit different than a matter of 'assurance' and certainly [i]"Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.[/i]" Mat 6:34 comes into play. But am thinking more broadly and in general terms. "Prophecy" as in a more spurious and decidedly "Christian fortune teller" motif, where there is a created anxiety over things that largely never come to pass. Fears and wasted energy over even current event's and their [i]possibilities[/i]. As example, all the over wrought attention to "The Da Vinci Code" (Well done here saints, barely a trickle of interest) which will be tomorrows forgotten controversy not unlike all the uproar over "The Passion". That is not to say everything of course... But to bring it back to the original question of "[i]is it possible for the Christian to fall into condemnation?[/i]" seems similar as it is in one sense a hypothetical or 'future' looking question. Is it possible? I would say most certainly...

In the end will it be;

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not _____

Or in other words, justifying ourselves, or;

Luk 18:13 And the tax collector, standing far away, would not so much as lift his eyes towards heaven, but beat on his chest, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'

Which is answered in;

Luk 18:14 I say to you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

Am thinking in sentiment and attitude of the heart here. Of course there is an assurance, but an assurance that never takes advantage or presumes anything.

A great deal of this comes round to a false idea of settlement without continuation, of "saying" or believing certain facts and pronouncing or giving a certificate of completion before going to school so to speak. Graduation is not until death.

One word continually hinges on these matters throughout scripture:

[i]If[/i]

Romans 8:9-15 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Since it is mentioned again in Romans 8:5-6 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I guess it would be not an addition, but a oneness with the rest of the text.

If you are in the flesh, not saved. If you are in the Spirit, saved. Romans 8:9-15 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

You are save or you are not saved. We are in the Spirit, those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, we are the ones that walk in the Spirit. For we have the Spirit of Christ and the Promised Comforter born again in us and baptized into the Holy Spirit and into Christ.

Even devils and demon's believe the Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but they do not have the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit birthed in them. They are condemned already. Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Jhn 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Either we have light or we don't. With Christ in us Who is the light, there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In Christ, we are walking in the Spirit. Not my choice but His. Our problem is we don't believe it.

In Christ Jesus: Phillip

I would say that about the KJV only people.

I remember falling inti KJV onlyicsm and I sarted to doubt all Bible vesions including the KJV, I started to study greek so I would be able to read the origenal greek. But then I found that there was so many diferent greek texts and then I was starting to wounder if I would ever know the true WORD of GOD.

I finaly settled that all versions are ok.

The Holy Spirit will keep His Words true, since Christ is the Word and He The Holy Spirit is the Revealer of Christ. If a translation is off, it will be revealed in the believer. A direct translation not a paraphrase.

In Christ: Phillip

Yes, I agree with you. I just noticed that the last phrase is is also in VS. 4. So I guess one could make a strong case that the byzantine text copyist looked down a line while copying and repeated the text. Or, Paul simply repeated himself in verse 4-- either way, it is not crucial. The truth is still in both schools of manuscripts. So basically, I was straining a gnat.

Please, disregard my thinking about byzantine VS alexandrian and romans8:1 :)

Logic wrote:
I would say that about the KJV only people.

I remember falling inti KJV onlyicsm and I sarted to doubt all Bible vesions including the KJV, I started to study greek so I would be able to read the origenal greek. But then I found that there was so many diferent greek texts and then I was starting to wounder if I would ever know the true WORD of GOD.

I finaly settled that all versions are ok.

Combat_Chuck wrote:
Lets consider the philosophy of a text mutilater for a moment. Both adding and subtracting from God's Word is EVIL, no doubt about it. But put yourself in the shoes of a text mutilator who was a copyist for a moment and think.

What reasons could you have for "adding" the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' to Romans 8:1?

And what reasons could you have for removing the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' from Romans 8:1?

I can't see why someone would add that last line for the life of me! But knowing the wickedness of the carnal human heart, I can see plenty of reason(s) to remove that last line!

I must admit that verse was one of the major reason behind me dropping the NIV (mind you, it does contain it in the footnotes). However, in order to play "devils advocate" (read what you want into that), you may note that the "walk not after the flesh" clause is found later in vv3-4.

[b]Romans 8:3-4 (KJV)[/b] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What do you think Paul meant by walking "according to the flesh"? And "after the Spirit"?

The footnote in the recovery version says:

"The condemnation mentioned here is subjective, in our conscience, and is the result of our being inwardly defeated by the evil law of the indwelling sin, as described in 7:17-18,20-24. The blood of the crucified Christ is the remedy for objective condemnation (3:25). The Spirit of life, who is Christ... and who is in our spirit, is the remedy for subjective condemnation."

Here the footnote points out that there are two types of condemnation. One is objecive and relates to our standing with God which was dealt with by Christ on the Cross and His blood is sufficient for all our sins just as Romans 8:33 "who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies. Who is He that condemns?

The other condemnation is subjective related to our conscience and our experience. This condemnation comes in because we are defeated by the law of sin and death in our members. IN other words we have a sense of condemnation because of our failure.

But as we learn to walk by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus we are set free from the law of sin and death and our conscience is liberated from experiential condemnation.

This is not related to eternal life, or our justification and standing, but related to our day to day experience as the whole of Chapter 8 is regarding our experience of Christ as the indwelling Spirit of Life.

So whether you take the Byzentine text or others, the meaning is still the same. It is by walking according to and by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that we experience a liberated conscience because we are liberated from that which brings in the sense of condemnation. That is from the law of sin and death and we enjoy the victorious overcomming life of the crucified and resurrected Christ in our spirit and we have the testimony of a good conscience.

Graftedbranch

Romans 5 deals with our objective standing before God. It shows us that condemnation came upon us by the disobedience of the one man, Adam. Even so justification came in by the obedience of the One, Jesus Christ. So our justification is not based in our personal obedience but in the obedience of Christ who is the Second Man.

Though Romans 5,6, and the 1st part of 7 do touch on our experience, it is primarily dealing with the objective facts of our redemption and union with Christ.

But the last half of 7 and chapter 8 deal with our experience and how all these objective realities are enjoyed.

7 deals with our defeated condition in ourselves and our inability to fullfill God's requirements in ourselves because though we would aspire to what is good, there is a law in our flesh which rises up and takes us captive and therefore we are defeated and cry out, "wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me?" This defeated condition brings us into condemnation. NOt objective condemnation which is dealt with by Christ on the Cross, but subjective condemnation in our conscience.

And God's answer is in Romans 8, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. This is the solution to the problem in Romans 7. We turn from ourselves and look to Christ and live by the Law of Life. This Law of the Spirit of Life is just Christ HImself who indwells us.

And in this Spirit of Life is all of the reality of Romans 5, 6, and 7 regarding justification, our union with Christ in HIs death to sin and the flesh, His death to the Law and our death in HIm, and His victorious resurrection Life. All these things are known and applied to us by the indwelling Spirit bringing us in experience into these realities.

Apart from the indwelling Spirit, though we be justified and "in Christ" we do not experience this. It is only by the Spirit that these things are ours in experience. He is the exectutor of all the things of Christ.

It is only by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that we experience liberation from sin and from the law. Only as we walk by the Spirit and mind the spirit do we find the just requirements of the law fullfilled in us. We actually find the Law lived out in us in our experience because it is Christ who lives in us.

Graftedbranch

I know it is a little late for this comment, but I think this is hilarious:

'+1 Points for the Byzantine, Majority, "Textus Receptus"?'

By the way, I think that the TR is the one to count on. I lost track of the +1's and that's how I made my decision.

Hi Steve,

The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that many translations are off. Especially when it comes to Christ being in the believer. The new age translations have no concept of Christ being their life. They either change the in Christ position to our faith being in Christ from truth of Christ's Faith being in us. Especially Gal 2:20.

Sure Satan wants to keep the whole world from the in Christ Position of the believer. God will do the same thing of blinding eyes to see and making deaf the the ears who can't hear. He did this to Israel because of unbelief. Why are those that don't believe now any different. Those that believe, no one can separate us form the truth and the Love of God.

Satan is judged and is no longer the believers father, Christ has made His Father our Father. The in the old testament could call God father, but they had no exchange of spirit and they were of their father the devil. We are of our Father, the Father of Jesus Christ, for He that is in us has made us heirs, not only by birth but by instant legal litigation of adoption.

Jhn 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

Do you think Jesus was fooled by Satan's manipulation and half truth's of The Word when He was tempted. Either God protects His own or He doesn't. When I started I used the living bible, went to many others, The New American Standard, and finally ended up in KJV. The road was by word upon word and Precept upon Precept. God the Holy Spirit brought me to truth and even has made true the mistakes in the KJV.

Who are we depending on for truth, a book written by man or the Word of God in print that He will keep true to Himself, even in man's mistakes.

Has God not kept you from the deception? God does not need me to keep His Word Pure. He may use me for His Good Pleasure to Help others see the truth, but He does not need me.

Satan does have access to our outside influence but not by our spirit, lest how should he flee.

Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1228. diabolos
Search for G1228 in KJVSL
diaboloV diabolos dee-ab'-ol-os

from 1225; a traducer; specially, Satan (compare 7854):--false accuser, devil, slanderer.

Satan uses God's Word against us, but we are free in Christ. "¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,"

In Christ: Phillip

the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that many translations are off. Especially when it comes to Christ being in the believer. The new age translations have no concept of Christ being their life. They either change the in Christ position to our faith being in Christ from truth of Christ's Faith being in us. Especially Gal 2:20.

Sure Satan wants to keep the whole world from the in Christ Position of the believer. God will do the same thing of blinding eyes to see and making deaf the the ears who can't hear. He did this to Israel because of unbelief. Why are those that don't believe now any different. Those that believe, no one can separate us form the truth and the Love of God.

I read the NASB, am I a new ager? I also read the new King James, am I a new ager?

Oh thats right, I must be blind.

:-?

I guess that would depend on who you are in Christ. I read also NASB also 12 other different versions. God protects His Word in all of them. Truth is Truth, it will be the same, as all Truth comes from God. I also use The Greek, and Hebrew. I am not branding anyone, new age bibles have a great tendency to detract from the Deity of Christ and His position in the Believer. I am so Sorry about your blindness.

In Christ: Phillip :-o

If I ere, then you are saying Jesus was fooled in this discourse between Him and Satan? I think and believe He knew exactly what Satan was doing, even before he said it, and with Christ being born again in us, do we not have the same truth in us to see the lies of the Devil.

In Christ Phillip

Quote:

"I can see that you did not even read my post! Christ responded to Satan's twisted rendering of Scripture with the actual Word of God.

We are to respond the same way when the "spirit" talks to us. Those that don't will be deceived!"

Absolutely, then I did not ere. He was not fooled and we won't be either if we keep our mind of The Spirit. We have the mind of Christ also.

I read you whole post. I just wondered where I erred. Every thing else I agree completely.

Except this: "We, believers in Christ, will never be like Him until we see him as he is, at the Rapture:

1 Cor 13:12
" 12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

We are Him in Spirit, we are becoming Him in soul-mind. The only thing corruptible about us because of Christ in us is flesh. That even has been quickened to contain the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. We are face to face with Him now, He is our Spirit, Our mind is becoming Him as we learn, we have the Mind of Christ. All that is left is the flesh. We know He has given us the privilege to get rid of this body in being planted and bring forth much fruit unto a body just like His.

1 Corinthians 13:11-12 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

4383. prosopon Face to Face.
Search for G4383 in KJVSL
proswpon prosopon pros'-o-pon

from 4314 and ops (the visage, from 3700); the front (as being towards view), i.e. the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication, presence, person:--(outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men's) person, presence.

His presence, His Person, countenance, his fashion, His presence. The only things left, flesh. Lets go to the forth demention, The Spirit of Christ in us. We are not children, we are becoming Men of Christ and in Christ and Christ in us.

Jesus did not die on the Cross to make us mud balls, He died that we become son's of the Living God. God does not look at you as a mud ball He see's His crucified Son in you.

In Christ: Phillip

""""P.s. To sum this up, views like yours that make Christians more than the mudballs they really are, will be those of the apostate Church that enter the Tribulation with the False Prophet""""

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

How? Because of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I don't think By the Cross He thinks His brothers and sisters are mud balls.

In Christ My Brother: Phillip, By Christ my Lord.

There is something missing here. Steve do you believe that the Spirit of Jesus Christ is birthed in you? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is a Person? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit has been given you from the Father by the prayer of Jesus Christ and is Baptized into you. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Word and the Word is a Person.

What is "experiential Christianity"? I thought we were to experience This Christ that is born again in us. I can be betrothed to a spouse, but cannot experience marriage until I am one with the betrothed.

Are we one with Christ in Spirit and soul?
Can we not control these flesh bodies, by the Spirit that gives us the power to overcome sin?

We must be of agreement on some of these.

In Christ: Phillip

I can't believe you just related the Holy Spirit of God as a "downpayment" :-( :-o

That one went over my head. Please explain down payment.

Hebrews 12:18-29 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

You believe we can test the spirits, by the Word of God? We cannot even control our own spirits, for we did not even know the spirit Of Satan was our father until the Holy Spirit revealed it to us. We know have the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in us to reveal wrong spirits. My flesh wants so terribly to maintain the control that I can do something to test the spirits. This is a true lie from the devil. Christ was put in me to make sure I knew the wrong spirit and The Holy Spirit is the convictor of my soul. He will show me wrong spirits and He will use the Words of Christ and God the Father. For He will speak to no man except by the Words given Him by Jesus Christ.

God is the consuming Fire, Not my petty testing of the spirits. Christ is in us, we have this power by the Holy Spirit, all we have to do is make ourselves available to it. The Word will take care of itself.

We have only two tests in trying the spirits.

1 Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

2 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,

If our testing goes any farther than these we are deceiving ourselves.

In compliance with the test, We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:1-6 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

In Christ: Phillip

Ephesians 4:30:
Stop putting the Holy Spirit of God into deep pain, by whom you were sealed until the day of complete redemption.

Which version is that?

There is a course of conduct which will drive that Spirit from the mind as if he were grieved and pained--as a course of ingratitude and sin would pain the heart of an earthly friend, and cause him to leave you." If asked what that conduct is, we may reply,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(1.) Open and gross sins. They are particularly referred to here; and the meaning of Paul is, that theft, falsehood, anger, and kindred vices, would grieve the Holy Spirit, and cause Him to depart.

(2.) Anger, in all its forms. Nothing is more fitted to drive away all serious and tender impressions from the mind than the indulgence of anger.

(3.) Licentious thoughts and desires. The Spirit of God is pure, and He dwells not in a soul that is filled with corrupt imaginings.

(4.) Ingratitude. We feel ingratitude more than almost anything else; and why should we suppose that the Holy Spirit would not feel it also?

(5.) Neglect. The Spirit of God is grieved by that. Often He prompts us to pray; he disposes the mind to seriousness, to the perusal of the Bible, to tenderness and penitence. We neglect those favoured moments of our piety, and lose those happy seasons for becoming like God.

(6.) Resistance. Christians often resist the Holy Ghost. He would lead them to be dead to the world; yet they drive on their plans of gain. He would teach them the folly of fashion and vanity; yet they deck themselves in the gayest apparel. He would keep them from the splendid party, the theatre, and the ballroom; yet they go there. All that is needful for a Christian to do, in order to be eminent in piety, is to yield to the gentle influences which would draw him to prayer and to heaven.

Christians are said to be sealed; to be sealed by the Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13; 4:30; that is, the Holy Spirit is given to them to confirm them as belonging to God. He grants them his Spirit. He renews and sanctifies them. He produces in their hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are an evidence that they are approved by God; that they are regarded as his adopted children; and through birth His son's and daughters, legal and by birthright, that their hope is genuine; and that their redemption and salvation are SURE--in the same way as a seal makes a will or an agreement sure. God grants to them His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that they are His, and shall be approved and saved in the rapture, on resurrection morning, there for comfort one another with these things. In this there is nothing miraculous, or in the nature of direct revelation. It consists of the ordinary operations of the Spirit on the heart, producing repentance, faith, hope, joy, conformity to God, the love of prayer and praise, and the Christian virtues generally; and these things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart, and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption of the body. For we are already redeemed in Spirit and being redeemed in soul.

In Christ: Phillip

Romans 8:10,11

"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of rightousness.

"And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.'

2 Cor. 3:18 "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit"

2 Thess 2:14 "To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

A downpayment is a small and initial portion of the full sum. The full sum is the fullness of the initial portion.

The Holy Spirit is a down payment of our inheritance. But what is our inheritance? A mansion in heaven?

Our inheritance is Christ Himself. He is the good land of which we have all recieved our alloted portion (Colossians 1:12) and He is our inheritance. And the issue of this inheritance is glory.

Galatians tells us that the Promise of the Spirit is the blessing of Abraham.

In the New Testament, the Spirit is called, "the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Holiness, the Life giving Spirit, the Spirit of Life, and in Galatians He is just called, "The Spirit".

WE need to see that as a "downpayment' or "foretaste" He is the foretaste of the complete reality to come.

What is this reality?

In regeneration our spirit is made alive (Romans 8 The spirit is life because of rightousness). And today as members of His body, our soul is being renewed and transformed and conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God by the Spirit who indells us (Romans 8:29, 2 Cor. 3).

When the Lord returns, our mortal bodies will also be transfigured and glorified, by the same Spirit who raised up Jesus Christ from the dead (Romans 8:11).

The Spirit is the executor of all the riches of Christ. Today He regenerates our dead spirit, indwells us, and he grows in us, renewing us and transforming us, and ultimatly will transfigure our bodies and we shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is.

The Spirit is the gift of God. The Spirit is the blessing of God. The Spirit is everything God has for us today and in the future. It is by this indwelling Spirit that we are being conformed to the imgae of the Firstborn Son of God, It is by this indwelling Spirit we cry "Abba Father", it is by this indwelling Spirit we partake of and particapate in all Christ is and all Christ has acomplished. And it is by this inwelling Spirit our mortal bodies will be transfigured into the Likeness of the Firstborn Son of God.

The Spirit is everything in the New Testament. He is the Spirit of Jesus Christ and brings into us all Christ is and all Christ has accomplished and will conform us to His image and will transfigure our mortal bodies.

It is not that God has given us this and that and promises this and that and oh by the way, He has given us the Spirit as a down payment of these things to garentee us that one day we will recieve them. That is, as though one day we will present this deposit and turn it in to recieve the other things.

Rather the Spirit we have today as a downpayment will Himself be our full inheritance also. THe Spirit brings Christ into us and Christ brings the Father into us and the Spirit baptises us into Christ and Christ brings us into the Father.

Everything of God is in Christ and everything of Christ is in this Spirit. Everything we have of Christ today is in this Spirit and everthing we will have tomorrow is in this same Spirit.

Our destiny and our inheritance is glory. The glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. Whose glory? The glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. And how is this glory manifested? By His Spirit within us who will conform us to the image of His glory when He shall come to be glorified in His saints to be marveled at. It is "Christ in us, the hope of Glory".

THe glory we are destined to obtain is the glory of the Lord JEsus Christ which will be manifested from within us at His comming, transfiguring us into His likeness. Every blessing of God we enjoy today and that we are destined to obtain is through this indwelling Spirit. That is, from the Father, through the Son and by the Spirit.

Graftedbranch

Quote, by Jeff

"""""In the New Testament, the Spirit is called, "the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Holiness, the Life giving Spirit, the Spirit of Life, and in Galatians He is just called, "The Spirit"."""""

This is so. But the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit.

Did the Holy Spirit die one the Cross, Did the Father die on the Cross?

Jesus said, "It is finished", what is finished? That Christ and His death, would give us, Life. Who's, "it is finished," Life? Christ Life. Who sealed us and who are we sealed into?

Sealed into Christ, by the Holy Spirit Who did the sealing, Not sealing Himself the Holy Spirit in us as Life, but Christ as Life and the Holy Spirit as the Sealer and Teacher and motivating power and Revealer of the Life of Christ that is sealed in us.

Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for Him hath God the Father sealed. Not the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of My hand. Not even the Holy Spirit.

Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Jesus is the Prince of Life. Not the Holy Spirit. And on and on and on it goes. Christ is our Life, The Holy Spirit is the Revealer of that Life.

Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him. Not the Holy Spirit.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Any time the statement of the of life is given it is accomplished by Christ, not the Holy Spirit. "It is finished" You cannot make the Spirit of Life which is Christ the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is always revealing the Life of Christ to the believer and is the power of the Mind of Christ by the revelation of the Life and Mind of Christ that is already in the believer.

We will have the Holy Spirit in us forever and He will always be revealing God the Father to us throughout all eternity.

2Cr 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

The dying and the Life are always there in the believer, "We have been baptized into His death", in our conversion because we believed. The manifestation of this truth is the responsibility of the revealing of the Holy Spirit. What Christ has done is finished, The Holy Spirit is the revealer of this finished work in us.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is not Jesus Christ that is teaching us, it is the Holy Spirit that is teaching us the things of Christ. The Holy Spirit not being the Spirit of Christ.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Who is sending the Holy Spirit? It is Christ, from the Father. He, The Holy Spirit is the Only Revealer of Truth when it comes to the things of Jesus Christ.

WE cannot mix the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and God the Father, they have three individual Jobs and mixing them only weakens all Three. They are One in Union and in being the One God, because when all is done all will be returned to God the Father and He will be and is our All in All.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Then Shall the Son to the Glory He had with the Father before the foundation of the world.

Then still we have the Seed of the Father by the Holy Spirit delivered just like it was in Mary and brought forth a Son and also us as son's.

In Christ: Phillip

This is so. But the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit.

I must say that this statement is false.

In Romans 8:9 Paul says: "But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet, if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.

In this verse the Apostle identifies the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ. They are one and the same.

How many spirits are there?. Do we recieve 2 spirits when we believe? Is the Spirit of Christ a different Spirit from the Spirit of God? No. Of course not. There are not two spirits but one.

The Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Life, the Life Giving Spirit, the Spirit of Holiness, are all one and the Same Spirit.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are not 4 in the Godhead, only three. The Spirit of Christ is not another Spirit.

Ephesians tells us there is one Body, one Spirit, One Lord Jesus Christ, one faith, one baptisism, one God and Father who is over all, through all and in all.

There is only one Spirit. Not two. Not many.

We have our human spirit and the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

But God has only one Spirit. And this Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. They are one and the Same Spirit.

The Spirit in the New Testament is the Spirit of Christ. And in this Spirit is all that Christ is as the embodiment of the Father. In this Spirit is the Son and the Father.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are eternally distinct but not separate. They are one God. And they eternally coinhere. The FAther is in the Son and the Son is in the Spirit. They are distinct but not separate.

This is the orthodox and biblical revelation of the Trinity. Eternally distinct but not separate.

The Father is the fountian, the son is the Spring and the Spirit is the river of the water of Life. And they are one God, not three.

2 Corinthians 3 tells us, "the Lord is the Spirit". This Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ in the context. And this Lord Jesus Christ in resurrection is the Spirit who indwells us.

IN 1 Cor 15:45 it says, "the last Adam became a Life giving Spirit." That is, In resurrection, Christ is now imparted into us as the Spirit. The Spirit we recieve when we beieve is not separate from Christ. He is Christ. Christ in you, the hope of Glory.

And this Christ is the embodiment of the Triune God. In Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily. Christ is the embodiment of God and the Spirit as the Spirit of Christ is the consumation of the TRiune God in becomeing flesh, crucifixion and resurrection.

The Spirit in the New Testament is all inclusive of God, of Christ as a man, of all He has undergone and all He has accomplished.

this One Spirit is all inclusive.

As Andrew Murray says in "the Spirit of Christ"

"When Christ had entered with our human nature, in our flesh, into the Holiest of all, there took place that of which Peter speaks, 'Being by the right hand of God exalted, He received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost.'In our place, and on our behalf, as man and the Head of man, He was admitted into the full glory of the Divine, and His human nature constituted the receptacle and the dispenser of the Divine Spirit. And the Holy Spirit could come down as the Spirit of the God-man --most really the Spirit of God, and yet as truly the spirit of man.He could come down as the Spirit of the glorified Jesus to be in each one who believes in Jesus, the Spirit of His personal life and His personal presence, and at the same time the spirit of the personal life of the believer. Just as in Jesus the perfect union of God and man had been effected and finally completed when He sat down upon the throne, and He so entered on a new, stage of existence, a glory hitherto unknown, so too, now, a new era has commenced in the life and the work of the Spirit.He can now come down to witness of the perfect union of the Divine and the human, and in becoming our life, to make us partakers of it. There is now the Spirit of the glorified Jesus: He hath poured Him forth; we have received Him to stream into us, to stream through us, and to stream forth from us in rivers of blessing."

When we beleive into Christ we recieve one Spirit as Paul says, 'you were all baptised into One Spirit and given to drink of one Spirit. And this Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ. He is one Spirit and in Him is everything. He is the Triune God, incarnated, crucified and resurrected, indwelling us.

There are many aspects of this One Spirit. And we experience all these different aspects as we grow in Him and as we apprehend him. But He is one Spirit and in Him is everything.

Graftedbranch

Did the Holy Spirit die one the Cross, Did the Father die on the Cross?

Christ as a man died on the cross. Christ is the embodiment of the Triune God. He is the incarnated Son of God with the Father and by the Spirit.

In Christ was the Father. The father was in Him. Jesus said, "the Fahter who abides in Me, He does His works.

And the Son lived and worked by the Spirit. "If I by the Spirit do cast out demons, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you.

The Son is the embodiment of God. He is God manifested in the flesh.

Christ died on the Cross in His humanity. He did not die in His eternal nature as God. He died as a man. And in His eternal nature as God He is one with the Father and the Spirit.

God did not die on the cross as God. The eternal God was incarnated into humanity in Christ. He lived a human life and he died as a men on the cross. He died on the cross as a man. It was a human death He experienced as a man. But in His divine nature He did not die, not as the son, and not as the Father and not as the Spirit. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit experienced death on the cross in Christ's humanity.

As Hebrews tells us it was by the power of an unending Life that He was raised from the dead. It was according to the Spirit of Holiness. It was because of His eternal divine nature that he was raised from the dead. His divine nature did not die. He died in His humanity as a man.

And it was this Divine nature, His divinity that raised Him from the dead.

Did the Father die on the Cross? Did the Spirit die on the Cross? Did the Son die on the cross?

Yes and no. Christ died on the Cross as the embodiment of God. And He died as a man in His humanity. God cannot die but man can die. And God died in Christ as a man, but not as God.

This is biblical. This is orthodoxy.

Graftedbranch

Hi Jeff,

You can make the God Head One in Spirit, for they are all the Spirit of God. If They as God do not have different equations in Their work to be accomplished on this earth, then God is doing something against His Nature. God must in our finite minds teach us Who He is, and in doing this He has chosen three natures in Himself to reveal to us. God the Father who cannot be a Father without giving birth to a Son, This is how God has chosen a Father to be a Father. So it is Plain He wanted to be a Father and He wanted son's in His House. He could not get them by creation. Nothing created is the total of the one creating his creation. I cannot create a car and it be of me, I can give it all the attributes of myself by putting a created program in the computer and tell it what to do and it possibly would do what I gave it orders to do, but not likely, maybe one of billions, names Enoch. If I gave it a choice to do what it wanted, It would make a wrong decision at some point and kill itself. Just like Adam did. The only way I could give it my decisions is to put myself in the computer and it would have the Spirit of me in the car. Then I would have to give it my Spirit to teach it how to understand my Spirit. Do you see where this is going? We must keep the Spirit of Christ and the Teacher Spirit from God separate, even though They are together One God. God dealing as the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit in Himself can keep this total of Who He has chosen to reveal Himself to us, He can keep it just fine and perfect as One God. Now that He is dealing with A created being that now has His Seed in them, He must keep The Spirit of Christ as Life and the Holy Spirit as teacher separate, or all would be so confused no one would be able to keep anything straight. When all things are subdued under Christ's Feet, and the Kingdom is returned to the Father as One God, no longer needing three Person's to deal with His creation, then we will know Him as we are known and coming to know Him Now by the Son in us and the Holy Spirit teaching us who this Son is in the Godhead. Some day we will be One with the Father Just like Christ is with the Father which Christ prayed we would know and even now know and we will be one even as we are now, One complete and then in the Spirit of God will be One also, as Christ is One with Him, for The Holy Spirit, He also is baptized into us. But now we Need to keep them straight for Who They are and What our body soul and spirit is doing and will be doing in the Father's House. You have a wonderful knowledge of Who God is, But He knows Who He is also and He knows best how to keep us on the right track when He is dealing with us, Or Christ would not have had to go to the Cross, And the Father would not have had to turn His back on Him when He was crucified, and the Holy Spirit would not be teaching us who this Christ that died and is birthed in us is, that we might be called the son's of God. 1 John 3:1-3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.

If we don't keep the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit separated in The Work of God this scripture would be so mixed up we could never understand it. Who is Him, He the pure One, Jesus Christ. Or we would be not son's of God but gods of god.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

Nicene Creed:

"I believe in one God the Father Almighty; Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father..."

The Athenasian Creed:

"And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated, nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord...

...For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. God, of the Essence of the Father, begotten before the worlds, and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God, and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by assumption of the Manhood into God."

The Trinity is a mystery. Human language is deficient in expressing this mystery and the human mind is deficient in comprehending this mystery.

But, we must take the revelation of this mystery as it stands in the Bible.

Theology divides the topic into the Essential Trinity and the economical Trinity. That is, the essential Trinity refers to God's eternal being as the Triune God. The economical Trinity is God's operation in time interacting with His creation for the purpose of carrying out His Eternal Purpose and Will.

The relationship of Father and Son did not begin with the incarnation of Christ. Christ as the Eternal Word was in the beginning with God and was God. The same was in the beginning with God and all things came into being through Him. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotton from the Father...

Christ as the Eternal Son has ever existed in the relationship of Son to the Father having His Source in the Father and eternally proceeding from the Father. And the Spirit Likewise eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.

In God's relationship to His Creation, the Father originates, the Son accomplishes, and the Spirit applies. This is the eternal distinction and the eternal operation of the Triune God.

And yet we also have to see that though the Father sent the Son, the Father was also in the Son as Jesus said in John 14 10:

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me, He does His works" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."

He then said, "I am going to the Father".

In vs. 16 he speaks of "Another Comforter" who would not come unless Jesus went away. But then in vs 18 He identifies the Comforter with Himself saying "I will not leave you as orphans, I am comming to you'.

Then in vs 23 Jesus said:

"if anyone loves Me he will keep My Word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him.

And in vs. 20 the Lord said, "In that day (His resurrection, when the Spirit comes) you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me and I in you."

And so in John 14 we have all these aspects of the Divine Mystery. Jesus is going to the Father, but the Father is in Him. He is sending "another comforeter" and "I will not leave you as orphans but I am comming to you.

Who is comming' the Holy Spirit or Christ? Who indwells us, The Holy Spirit, Christ, or the Father? According to John 14 all three. And yet, all of these are "Another Comforter" who cannot come except Christ go away (to the Cross) and return in resurrection as the Life Giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45).

So in John 14 we see that the Father is in Christ and the Spirit brings Christ into us. And so in this one Spirit, this one Comforter, we have the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

In that day, when the comforter comes, you will know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you. The Spirit brings us into this realtiy and makes this reality known to us in our consciousness and in our experience.

The Spirit brings the Son into us and in the Son the Father. And the Spirit also unites us with the Son who is also in the Father. And therefore the place the Lord went away to prepare for us that we might be with Him where He is, through crucifixion and resurrection, is in the Father.

On the one hand, the Father was in heaven and Christ was going to Him. ON the other hand the Father was in Christ.

Also on the one hand Christ in His resurrected body is in the heavens at the right hand of God. ON the other Hand Christ is within us as the Life Giving Spirit.

And so the Father, the Son, and the Spirit eternally exist in their distinctions, but they eternally coinhere mutually indwelling one another. And they cannot be separated. If you have One, you have the other two. And they share one unique LIfe, nature, and essence and they are One God, not three.

This is a mystery but it is the revealtion of the Bible. And we must set aside our natural concepts and recieve the pure revelation of the Bible.

Graftedbranch

I have been wondering about Romans 8:1 lately as well, as I noticed variations to this text.

There are actually three variations in the Greek manuscripts to 8:1

1) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

2) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh.

3) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but the Spirit.

So far as I've been able to see, translations have chosen either option 1 or 3.

What reasons could you have for "adding" the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' to Romans 8:1?

And what reasons could you have for removing the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' from Romans 8:1?

I can't see why someone would add that last line for the life of me! But knowing the wickedness of the carnal human heart, I can see plenty of reason(s) to remove that last line!

Don't think of everything as some big conspiracy. If that's all you look at textual criticism as, then you are going to be a poor textual critic. Instead, we need to look to the evidence at hand instead of just whipping out some wild speculation as to why some evil person might have taken away or added to the text.

Manuscript Evidence (major witnesses)
-------------

Note: (latter correction) = same manuscripts e.g. D, where later addition was made to the manuscript.

(Variant 1) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Primary-Alexandrian: 4th century uncial;
Secondary-Alexandrian: 5th century uncial; 14th century minuscule; 14th century minuscule;
Western: 5th century uncial;
Byzantine:
Other Important: 11th century minuscule;
Church Fathers: Marcion, Origen, Athanasius, Diodore, Didymus, Cyril, Ambrosiaster Augustine.
Foreign translations: Old Latin, Coptic, Arminian, Gregorian

(variant 2) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh.

Primary Alexandrian: 5th century uncial;
Secondary-Alexandrian: 11th century;
Western: 6th century uncial (later correction);
Byzantine:
Other Important: 9th/10th century uncial;
Church Fathers: Chrysostom; Victorinus-Rome, Jerome, Pelagius Speculum.
Foreign translations: Old Latin, Vulgate, Syriac, Arminian.

(variant 3) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but the Spirit.

Primary Alexandrian: 4th century uncial (later correction)
Secondary Alexandrian: 9th century minuscule; 11th century minuscule; 10th century minuscule;
Western: 5th century uncial (later correction);
Byzantine: 7th century minuscule; 9th century uncial; 9th century uncial; 6th century uncial;
Other Important: 9th century minuscule;
Church Fathers: Cyril
Foreign Translations: Lectionaries, Old Latin, Syriac, Gregorian, Slavic.

---

To summarize, the external evidence has the strongest support in variant 1. It's strongest support comes from early Alexandrian and Western texts, and is well attested in other writings, as well as translations. Variant 2 also has decent support in the Alexandrian tradition, as well as in other foreign translations. Variant 3 has the weakest support. Even though it has early support in the Alexandrian and Western text types, these are later additions to early texts by a later copyist. Otherwise, evidence for variant 3 is almost entirely confined to later Byzantine texts, though with some support by foreign translation and next to no support by church fathers.

---

Internal Evidence: Is there any explination as to how variants 2 and 3 might have been added? It is likely that a copyist at some point accidentally introduced this error by a slip of the eye, copying from Romans 8:4 the same phrase, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Theologically, the passage has the same meaning regardless of which variant one accepts as geniune. For the "us" of 8:4 is simply further elaborating on describing those who are in Christ Jesus from 8:1. The Christian, who walks after the Spirit and not the flesh, is under no condemnation in Christ Jesus. At best if either of the variants of 8:1 are geniune, they only add further emphasis to a passage that is rather clear even without it.

----

Conclusion: External and internal evidence strongly favor variant 1. Externally variant 1 has the earliest and widest support, and internally variants 2 & 3 can simply be explained as a mistaken copyist error, in which the passage retains the same meaning regardless (thus, no reason for absurd conspiracy theories that ignore the actual evidence).

It is always difficult in joining a discussion later on. Do we tag onto the end or take the conversation back to the beginning. If we take it back to the beginning we risk repeating what others have already said. My pattern has been a quick scan and then trying to decide where to begin a contribution. My apologies if my 'quick scan' missed things which would have made this contribution unnecessary.

Compton's

I feel scripture teaches that being born again is a transformation of our character and will through an inward death, a baptism into the Holy Spirit, and a resurrection into the person of Jesus Christ, who is God’s Word.

Compton's

So, according to Christ himself, all men are already condemned. The verdict has been handed down that men are guilty of loving darkenss more then light. Sometimes we argue over the doctrine of "original sin" but none of us can dispute the unavoidable reality of “original condemnation.” Every person alive is born into this total and complete condemnation untill “…whosoever believeth in Jesus should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

The word used in Romans 8:1 for 'condemnation' is katakrima and its associated verb is katakrinO. The words are used in Matt 12:41-42; 20:18; 27:3; Mark 10:33; 14:64; 16:16; Luke 11:31-32; John 8:10-11; Rom 2:1; 5:16,18; 8:1,3,34; 14:23; 1Cor 11:32; Heb 11:7; James 5:9; 2Pet 2:6. One of the problems we have in defining our terms here is that the English word 'condemn' is also used in many other New Testament verses, namely Matt 12:7,37; Luke 6:37; 23:40; 24:20; John 3:17-19; 5:24; Acts 13:27; Rom 14:22; 1Cor 11:34; 2Cor 3:9; 7:3; 1Tim 3:6; Titus 2:8; 3:11; James 3:1; 5:6,12; 1John 3:20-21; Jude 1:4. for other Greek words as well as katakrinO/katakrima. This has complicated our task is unpacking the Romans 8:1 passage.

The section quoted above from Compton leans heavily on the passages in John 3, but the word used in John 3 is NOT 'katakrima\\katakrinO but the simple word for 'judge' or 'assess'. This has been corrected by many modern versions but not the NKJV which has stuck to 'condemn/condemnation'. The following quotations from the ASV will make the point:

John 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

To speak, as Christians do so often, of feeling condemned is a near fatal flaw. The law court has no interest in a man's feelings but only in his guilt or innocence. To suggest that Satan can 'condemn' the saint' is equally inappropriate. Only the judge can 'katakrinO' - pass sentence- on anyone.

There is a 'katakrinO/karakrima' which has been pronounced by the 'judge' and Paul refers to it in Romans...the first quotation shows the difference between 'judgement' and 'condemnation'

Rom. 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Rom. 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom. 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The John 3 passages are part of John's accusation that 'He came to his own and his own received him not'. They heard and rejected the witness. The 'sentence' is such a case is 'darkness' and their 'sentence' is what they chose. Is this a final state? Apparently not...

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.”
(2Cor 3:14-16 KJVS)

This one I would need to examine more clearly. Is all condemnation the same condemnation ie does every crime receive the exact same irrespective of the crime?

Romans 5 sums it up;

5:12 Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned-

Then in 13-14 the Apostle demonstrates that death is penal and it reigned from Adam until Moses even over them that had not recieved the law.

In other words it is through the sin of one man that all in him are constituted sinners and subject to death. And even though when there is no law, sin is not imputed, yet, death reigned from Adam till Moses showing they are condemend becasue of being constituted sinners in Adam. This is Paul's argument.

vs. 18 "So then as it was through one offense unto condemnation to all men, so also it was through one rightous act unto justification of life to all men."

His whole point is that through Adam condemnation came to all men, and just so, through Christ justification came to all men (in Christ).

AS in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Yet just as in Christ there is reward in the comming age with regards to maturity in life, faithfulness, the nature of our work, and such, so also in the judgement of the lost, there are degrees of condemnation and each shall be judged according to his deeds.

Condemnation is through Adam and eternal Life is in Christ. But there is also reward and judgement for deeds done in the body.

We are not made sinners because of what we do. We sin because of what we are. To sin is our nature. It is in our constitution. We do what we do because of what we are and in Adam we are constituted sinners. Our deeds are just the expression of our fallen sinful humanity. Though a serpent never stike anyone, yet there is poisen in him. And though a person live a certian way, yet within him is the poisen of the Serpent. He is dead in trespesses and sins, he is devoid of the Life of God, and he is a slave of sin in his flesh. This is all of our condition by nature.

Graftedbrnach

Hi Graftedbranc,

[u]Condemnation is through Adam[/u] and eternal Life is in Christ. But there is also reward and judgement for deeds done in the body.

This sounds like 'original guilt'. Do you hold to that view? Just trying to clarify.

We are not made sinners because of what we do. We sin because of what we are. To sin is our nature. It is in our constitution. We do what we do because of what we are and in Adam we are constituted sinners. Our deeds are just the expression of our fallen sinful humanity.

This is true, yet the reason [u]we[/u] are still guilty is that "no word from God shall be void of power" (Luke 1:37) and what God says, we [i]can[/i] and [i]must[/i] do. We had the nature of Sin, but still yet man could have obeyed what God said do. This comes off almost as Pelagianism, but not really. Man in himself cannot obey any more than a man with a withered arm can "stretch it forth". But when God says, 'stretch forth thine hand' it becomes a matter of just [i]doing[/i] it.

Brother, It is just the plain revelation of the bible. Through one man sin entered into the world and thrugh sin, death so that death spread to all men.

As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

We inherit two things. We inherit guilt and Adam's fallen sinful nature. And our expression of this nature in sins commited only demonstrates the justice of our inherited guilt.

This is why Paul says in Galatians that the Law was given. Not that we might obey it and be justified by it, but rather that through it sin might be shown to be utterly sinful.

That is, the law was given to show us our condition and to show us our inability to obey it so that we might be justified through faith in Christ.

The Law came in to expose us. To show us God's rightousness and to show how we fall short. That we might despair of ourselves, apply to God and be justified through faith in Christ who alone is rightousness.

Nothing of the old creation is acceptable to God. Nothing of Adam can meet God's rightous requirements. God's way is the way of the New Creation. Christ Terminated the old creaiton in Himself on the Cross. And in His resurrection brought into being the New Creation of which we are partakers when we believe into Christ.

The Old Man was crucified with Christ. Christ is the end of Adam and in resurrection as the Second Man, we who are in HIm are acceptable to God, justified, redeemed, regenerated and being transformed into His image.

In christ we also inherit two things. IN Him we are justified before God. And also in Him we recieve His Life through regeneration. And this Life expresses itself in holiness and rightousness.

Just as we have Adam's guilt and Adam's nature, so also we have Christ's rightousness and Christ's nature imparted into us through the New Birth.

Graftedbranch

I wish to make an answer by this recent entry from AW. Tozer here on Sermonindex. It is from a chapter, "Preaching that Hinders Revival".

Tozer:

Another doctrinal hindrance is the teaching that men are so weak by nature that they are unable to keep the law of God. Our moral helplessness is hammered into us in sermon and song until we wilt under it and give up in despair. And on top of this we are told that we must accept Jesus in order that we may be saved from the wrath of the broken law! [u]No matter what the intellect may say, the human heart can never accept the idea that we are to be held responsible for breaking a law that we cannot keep.[/u] Would a father lay upon the back of his three year-old son a sack of grain weighing five-hundred pounds and then beat the child because he could not carry it? Either men can or they cannot please God. If they cannot, they are not morally responsible, and have nothing to fear. If they can, and will not, then they are guilty, and as guilty sinners they will be sent to hell at last. The latter is undoubtedly the fact. If the Bible is allowed to speak for itself it will teach loudly the doctrine of man's personal responsibility for sins committed.

Men sin because they want to sin. God's quarrel with men is that
they will not do even that part of the will of God which they
understand and could do if they would. From Paul's testimony in the seventh chapter of Romans some teachers have drawn the doctrine of moral inability. But however Paul's inner struggle may be interpreted, it is contrary to the whole known truth to believe that he had been a consistent law-breaker and violator of the Ten Commandments. He specifically testified that he had lived in all good conscience before God, which to a Jew could only mean that he had observed the legal requirements of the law. Paul's cry in Romans is not after power to fulfill the simple morality of the Ten Commandments, but after inward holiness which the law could not impart.

It is time we get straightened out in our thinking about the law. The weakness of the law was three-fold: (1) It could not cancel past sins - that is, it could not justify; (2) it could not make dead men live - that is, it could not regenerate; (3)it could not make bad hearts good - that is, it could not sanctify. To teach that the
insufficiency of the law lay in man's moral inability to meet its
simple demands on human behaviour is to err most radically. If the law could not be kept, God is in the position of laying upon
mankind an impossible moral burden and then punishing them for failure to do the impossible. I will believe anything I find in the Bible, but I do not feel under obligation to believe a teaching which is obviously a mistaken inference and one, furthermore, which both contradicts the Scriptures and outrages human reason.

The Bible everywhere takes for granted Israel's ability to obey the law. Condemnation fell because Israel, having that ability, refused to obey. They sinned not out of amiable weakness, but out of deliberate rebellion against the will of God. That is the inner nature of sin always, willful refusal to obey God. [u]But still men go on trying to get conviction upon sinners by telling them they sinned because they could not help it.[/u]

The vogue of excusing sin, of seeking theological justification for it instead of treating it as an affront to God, is having its terrible effect among us. Deep searching of heart and a resolute turning from evil will go far to bring back power to the Church of Christ. Tender, tear-stained preaching on this subject must be heard again before revival can come.

The contradictions observed in the teachings which we have
examined here are another cause of weakness. Christians do not, as a rule, enjoy great power until they begin to think straight. Whether or not the Methodists were right on every point they held is an open question; but their leaders had thought things out so clearly that they were not leading the people around in circles. As far as they could see there were no contradictions in their philosophy of faith, and this was a source of real strength to them.

The same was true in the Finney revivals. God used Finney to get
people thinking straight about religion. He may not have been
correct in all his conclusions, but he did remove the doctrinal
stalemates and start the people moving toward God. He placed
before his hearers a moral either/or, so they could always know
just where they stood. The inner confusion caused by hidden
contradictions was absent from his preaching. We could use
another Finney today.

"Paths to Power" - by A. W. Tozer, CHAPTER 5, page 40

It all boils down to this: there is no salvation outside of discipleship.

Lavish formulas and sayings have been created to try to say otherwise, but, this is the essence of the gospel through and through. Anything that says contrary is a false gospel.

Our moral helplessness is hammered into us in sermon and song until we wilt under it and give up in despair.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Paul's cry in Romans is not after power to fulfill the simple morality of the Ten Commandments, but after inward holiness which the law could not impart.

Lord, let this be our cry as well!

MC

There is no salvation outside of Christ, discipleship comes after The birth of Christ in the Believer. Then we are a true disciple of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Condemnation is through Adam and eternal Life is in Christ. But there is also reward and judgement for deeds done in the body.

Just as we have Adam's guilt and Adam's nature, so also we have Christ's rightousness and Christ's nature imparted into us through the New Birth.

philologos wrote:
What do you see the sentence/condemnation as being? This is my question. Many conclude that it means 'hell', does the book say so? I have no problem with the doctrine of 'congenital sin' but my question is what is the nature of the 'condemnation'?

Could it be that the "condemnation" (ie, sentance) for for Adam's sin, is that we are "given over" to our participation in Adam's sin, thereby justifying the ultimate condemnation to hell, because we have contributed to the problem, rather than avoided it, by trusting Christ? (pant-pant...long sentance)

Effectively Adam's condemnation was to have he and his descendants sold into slavery to their sin nature (notice the cross-over from "judicial terminology" to "slave market terminology" - and yes, I have been listening to your RORA2003 series :-P Pedantics of the world unite against the "Humpty invasion"). I can't think of a specific reference off hand, but I seem to remember their being cases in Leviticus where slaves were given opportunity to become bond slaves, because the children they had while serving out their term of slavery belonged to their master. Therefore the only way to keep their family was to sign their life over to the master.

If my memory serves me well in this matter, then this could be seem as an illustration of our slavery to the "sin nature" (as NIV puts it) and then Romans 8:1 could be a crossover of the slave/judicial terminology, where the death of the old master (ie, the Law) allows the opportunity for the new master (ie, Christ) to take ownership, thereby allowing a disolution of the "bondslave" status, that came about by us desiring to retain the children produced while under the old master (ie, sin - drawing of the matrimonial terminology, used in Rom 6).

As Reidhead would put it, sinners sin because they love their sin. What mother wouldn't love her children, and the Proverb compares God's faithfulness with this "mother's love". Perhaps walking "according to the Spirit" as opposed to the "flesh" could be drawing on this maternal illustration that James raises (ie, temptation=enticement, sin=birth, death=maturity), where "the flesh" is the "adulterous suitor"? It is interesting that Paul uses the words "no condemnation" in this verse, and perhaps the charge is one of "spiritual adultery" which produced the offspring of sin.

Anyway, that's my observation. By the way, welcome back Ron:-).

In Adam we are in condemnation unto death, because of sin. Sin as of the same as Adam. Not obeying God. Because of disobedience, Judgment, because of judgment, condemnation.

IN Christ, no condemnation, because Judgment was put on Christ. Sin is still available, but judgment unto death is taken away, therefore; no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Where we are in Spirit and Soul already seated in the heavenlies, with Christ Jesus which is now our Life. Not the old man, but the New Man in Christ Jesus. How?

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Making no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus, Birthed, Born Again son's of God.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

In Christ: Phillip

Here are some of my thoughts:

to sign their life over to the master.

Of what does God charge me in Adam's disobedience?

What does “die” mean here? It can’t mean physical death. It must mean our final judgment (not equated with the curse we inherited from Adam (death

I think we need to differentiate between curse (this life) and condemnation (eternal verdict).

Jesus seemed to indicate that the Pharisees would suffer for their predecessor’s sins. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matt 23;5

And this happened in 70AD – All the Jews suffered, not just their leaders, even little kids, even the believers suffered. But the final judgment will look very different.

of what does God hold me responsible in Adam's guilt?

But when I stand in God’s court, then I will be held accountable for my response to the God-given choice that I was free to make – that is, how I responded to God’s one and only solution - his Life.

Diane

Thank you Diane for the clear thinking demonstrated in your post. In thinking about your final comment...

But when I stand in God’s court, then I will be held accountable for my response to the God-given choice that I was free to make – that is, how I responded to God’s one and only solution - his Life.

...This is the real condemnation, that men choose [i]not[/i] to be made free and whole. [i]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/i](Joh 3:19). People love darkness because they think it is an excuse for their evil deeds and they hate the light becuase it reveals their true state of filth and nakedness. It's really wilfull ignorance and it will be no excuse on that day.

In Christ,

Ron

Anyway, that's my observation.

'the death' was the sentence and Paul says it followed 'the sin' in its entrance into the human race.

I have to steer carefully around Reidhead as I am pretty sure he did not believe in original sin. Any confirmations/denials, folks?

In Adam we are in condemnation unto death

Quote:

Of what does God charge me in Adam's disobedience?

Does he? The New Covenant seems to delete that charge: (formerly) the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge. Instead everyone will die for his OWN sin, whoever eats sour grapes his OWN teeth will be set on edge.”

What does “die” mean here? It can’t mean physical death. It must mean our final judgment (not equated with the curse we inherited from Adam (death

Jesus seemed to indicate that the Pharisees would suffer for their predecessor’s sins. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matt 23;5

uote:

of what does God hold me responsible in Adam's guilt?

Nothing. Yet I still suffer from the curse of my predecessors back to Adam. It’s not my fault that I will die. I will not be charged guilty for dying. I can't do anything to turn that around. I have no choice in that matter.

...This is the real condemnation, that men choose not to be made free and whole. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.(Joh 3:19).

What about the thief on the cross?

The thief on the cross was living the crucified life!

There is no salvation outside of Christ, discipleship comes after The birth of Christ in the Believer. Then we are a true disciple of Christ.

Matt 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

There is no salvation outside of discipleship.

We will not be charged guilty in Adam dying. We are guilty and die the death of Adam in our own guilt, for as in Adam all die. In Christ all are made alive. Christ died for the sin of the whole world, but all who don't believe die in sin and are condemned to death, complete separation from God. The condemned live in death in separation from God and in oneness with the liar that is the spiritual father, satan.

In Christ: Phillip

Are you saying that the New Covenant automatically deletes the charge as regards the whole race or only for those who receive the New Covenant?

More and more I believe that the New Covenant did not begin at a point on our temporal calendar. After all Christ was crucified before the beginning of time. It is an eternal divine arrangement – and so is applied wherever/whenever anyone receives new Life in Christ. Apart from that, all are still under the Old Covenant, with all the curses, judgments, etc.

Instead everyone will die for his OWN sin, whoever eats sour grapes his OWN teeth will be set on edge.

neither can it mean 'future' as the penalty was to be enacted 'in the day' of the disobedience.

This is not the same kind of 'hereditary' sin and consequence..

“..through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners… Rom. 5:19

This judgement came on the nation rather than upon the descendents of the Pharisees.

I’m sure their descendents experienced it too.

Judgments can fall on masses of people, but divine condemnation is directed to specific people for their own personal sins… I’m a bit muddled, I don’t think I am tracking with you Philologos.

BTW, welcome back. It’s good to have you come along and rattle our brains.

Diane

Apart from that, all are still under the Old Covenant, with all the curses, judgments, etc.

re the meaning of “die” Philologos responded:
Quote:
neither can it mean 'future' as the penalty was to be enacted 'in the day' of the disobedience.

I don’t get it. It can’t mean spiritual death – because we are all born separate from Christ. (dead in our sins) And if it can’t mean final judgment… then ……………. ?

That's the whole point. The 'condemnation' ie the execution of the sentence against Adam took place 'in the day' that he disobeyed God. But Rom 5;16-19 says that this 'came upon all men'. So Adam's condemnation ie spiritual death came upon the whole race, instantly, at the time of Adam's disobedience.

I am not sure that the 'future' punishment awaiting the unreconciled can be called 'condemnation' at this stage. The language of John 3 is not 'condemnation' ie the execution of the sentence but 'judgement' ie the process of assessment.

I don’t know what “hereditary” sin is. Is there such a thing????????? Or have we inherited a predisposition to sin (sinner)– being that we were in darkness.

Judgments can fall on masses of people, but divine condemnation is directed to specific people for their own personal sins

oops, it posted twice. I have deleted the copy.

This 'condemnation' is not condemnation but 'judgement'. the KJV does not distinguish between these two different concepts. We are not 'condemned already' as the KJV asserts but we are 'judged already'.

Perhaps I don't understand your distinction here. It seems to me that their use of 'condemnation' best conveys the meaning in John 3. The unbeliever is condemned already, there is nothing that spares the condemned man except for the delay, and that delay is the undeserved mercy of God. The phrase "dead man walking" applies well here and God's kindness is meant to draw him to repentence and admit his crimes and call out for forgiveness.

philologos wrote:
How about using the other terminology of 'the death'. The sentence was actually built into the prohibition. In the day you eat... dying thou shalt die.

I have to steer carefully around Reidhead as I am pretty sure he did not believe in original sin. Any confirmations/denials, folks?

I have found Reihead's doctrine to be almost as elusive as the German mystics. In [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singefile.php?lid=40]The Right use of the Law[/url], he warns against treating sin as a "congential disorder" because sinners have an excuse to sin, because they have no choice. However in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/url] and also in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3091]The Baptism of the Holy Spirit[/url] he tells the story of the man who needed to be locked in the boot of his Caddilac (and who isn't that man;-)). He also speaks of God's drawing preceding our obedience in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1974]The Hidden Things of God - Part 2[/url] (it is in the part that's hard to hear, so you'll have to listen carefulll. I couldn't work out what he was saying until I'd heard it about 5 or 6 times). And in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=38]Dangers of Third Generation Religion[/url] he mentions that the reason why the Israelites turned to idols can be traced back to the elders neglecting bring them back to the monuments at the Jordan, which he types as of crucified life and baptism.

So while it is true that the sinner sins because he loves his sin, our sin can also be understood as obedience to our master and the offspring of our "sin nature" husband (of which is the only justifiable excuse for "abortion" - in a spiritual sence). For more on these thought see Norman Grubb's [url=http://www.normangrubb.com/Paul's Key to the Liberated Life.htm]Paul's Key To A Liberated Life[/url]. In other words, he [b]are[/b] born slaves to the same master that Adam sold himself to, but "our sin" is to choose to become a "bondslaves" at the age of accountability, because we cannot bring ourselves to separate ourselves from our affection toward the byproduct of our union with our "sin husband", when it's time for us to go free.

InTheLight's

Perhaps I don't understand your distinction here. It seems to me that their use of 'condemnation' best conveys the meaning in John 3. The unbeliever is condemned already, there is nothing that spares the condemned man except for the delay, and that delay is the undeserved mercy of God.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

An example:

“When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man [u]condemned[/u] thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I [u]condemn[/u] thee: go, and sin no more.”
(John 8:10-11 KJVS)

However, the KJV John 3 passage has the English word 'condemnation' several times:

“For God sent not his Son into the world to [u]condemn[/u] the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not [u]condemned[/u]: but he that believeth not is [u]condemned[/u] already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the [u]condemnation[/u], that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
(John 3:17-21 KJVS)

“For God sent not the Son into the world to [u]judge[/u] the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not [u]judged[/u]: he that believeth not hath been [u]judged[/u] already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the [u]judgment[/u], that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.”
(John 3:17-21 ASV)

I am trying to identify the distinction between a 'condemnation' which is still future to an individual and a condemnation that has 'already' come upon all men. Rom 5. So I am asking (and answering) the question 'what was Adam's sentence that has passed to all men?' And my answer is that it is spiritual death, or The Death and Paul designates it in Romans 5.

I am trying to distinguish between Adam's Sin and mine and to see what sentence [u]each[/u] has/will receive(d).

Does that help you to see what I am trying to say? :-)

No matter what the intellect may say, the human heart can never accept the idea that we are to be held responsible for breaking a law that we cannot keep.

Tozer is very dissapointing in this regard. "The heart is decietful above all things and desporatly wicked, who can know it?".

The human heart is fallen, twisted, and centered upon itself.

His argument goes flat against the plain revelation of scripture and Paul's clear arguments in both the book of Galatians, and Roman's 7.

If God gave Isreal a law that could be kept, there would have been no need for the priesthood, the sacrafices, the atonment, etc. which were a picture of the comming Christ.

Tozer, like many takes his understanding of the fall from Genesis 3 and sees only a moral failure. Whereas the context of the fall is the choosing of the Tree of the knowelge of Good and Evil over the Tree of Life.

God never intended man to express his own rightousness, but rather, created him in His image as a vessel to contain God, God intended man to eat of the Tree of Life and thereby recieve the Life of God to be His expression on the earth.

The effect of eating the tree of the knowlege of Good and evil was that man became as God knowing good and evil. He became a self centered, self sufficient, independant being separated from the Life of God.

And it is the effect of this tree which gives man the mistaken idea that he has within him the capacity to do good and to keep God's law. This is the principle of the pharasees.

THe Law according to Paul was given to make sin sinful, to expose man's condition, and to be a child conducter to lead him to Christ.

Paul said, "That I may be found in HIm not having a rightousness of my own, derived from law, but that which comes through faith in Christ. The rightousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.

God did not create man with the ability to keep the law apart from Christ. He did not create man with an inate rightousness. But rather created man as a vessel to recieve Him as Life, to manifest His Divine attributes in his human virtues. Even if man had not sinned, yet he did not have his own inate rightousness. He did not posses the knowlege of good till he ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil.

There was not the tree of good and the tree of evil, but rather the tree of Life and the Tree of the knowelge of both good and evil. Good and evil were both on the same tree. The other Tree represents Life, the Life of God.

God created man to recieve Him as Life and to manifest His rightousness, His holiness, His divine attributes.

God created man in His image as a glove is created in the image of a hand to contain the hand and to express the hand. God created man with a spirit to know Him, to recieve Him and to be His dwelling place.

God created man to be His expression in the earth living in dependance upon God as Life, in communion with God.

IN the fall man's being was corrupted by the poisen of the Serpent. And man became a slave of sin dwelling in his flesh. No amount of law can deliver the man from slavery to corruption.

The law expresses God's rightousness and man does not have it in himself to comply with God's rightousness. Christ met the demands of the law on our behalf, died in our stead, redeemed us from the curse of the law, died to it's juristiction and in resurrection unites us with Himself and dwells within us as the Great Law Keeper.

"you have died to the law through the body of Christ that you might be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead that you might bear fruit to God".

The Christian as Romans 7 and 8 show us does not have even in himself the capacity to keep God's law, but rather though he would do good, there is a greater law in his flesh, the law of sin and death which takes him captive.

God's way is the way of the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. That is, a greater law which is the resurrection Life of Christ.

The just requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Only God is holy. Only God is rightouse. Only Christ is holy. Only Christ is rightouse. And He is, of God, made unto us rightousness, sanctification, and redemption.

The problem Tozer sees as a result of preaching man's inability to keep the law, which leaves the man in despair, is resolved in Romans 8 not with proclaiming man's natural ability, but by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

The problem is that man stops with Roman's 7 and never move on to Roman's 8. Paul's despair of his inability to keep the law is not resolved by trying harder, but by Christ and by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Tozer falls short in this.

Graftedbranch

If I have Adam's 'guilt', of what am I guilty? The legal language in this country is 'guilty as charged' and this is from the Roman concept of law. Of what does God charge me in Adam's disobedience? Guilt is blame-worthiness; of what does God hold me responsible in Adam's guilt?

Hebrews 7:9,10: "And, so to speak, through Abraham, Levi also, he who recieves tithes, has been made to pay tithes, For he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him."

Just as it is written in Hebrews that Levi, who was in the loins of Abraham gave tithes to Mechilzedec showing the superiority of his Priesthood, so also the whole human race was in the loins of Adam.

Adam was as the theologins say, 'the federal head of the race." Both federally and organically we were all "In Adam" when he sinned and therefore sinned in him. Everything we are is derived from Adam. There is nothing in us naturally which is not out from Adam. Evey gene, every part of our DNA is from Adam. Adam comprehends all of us, every human being. Even Eve was taken and built from Adam's substance. And though this preceeded Adam's sin, Eve participated in that sin.

In other words the whole race existed in Adam. When Adam sinned, we all sinned in him. If Adam had physically died before he and Eve gave birth, we too would have physically died in him.

Suppose a man and a woman were banished by law to some deserted Island. And suppose they had children there. Would not the children share in their banishemnt? Suppose they died before having children being executed. Would not their future children also persih with them?

And Paul argues in Romans 5 that through one man's disobedience resulted in condemnation to all men for that all sinned.

And the facts are these. Adam died spiritually, became a slave of corruption and sin in his flesh, was barred from the Tree of Life and cast out of the Garden.

And we also partake of this sentance. We are all born dead in trespesses and sins and separated from the life of God as Ephesians tells us. If it were not so, then we must each be presented with the same choice as children, we must also commit the same act, we must also all repeat Adam's transgression being in Adam's inocent and sinless state to be found in the fallen condition of Adam and be under the curse. If it were not so, then babies could not die because they would not be subject to death.

Death reigned from Adam till Moses even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression. Even Babies die and death is penal.

And just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. By the obedience of Christ we are made rightouse and we have justification unto Life.

Just as in natural birth we partake of Adam's sin and Adam's condemnation, so also in Christ we partake of His rightousness and His Eternal life.

Graftedbranch

If it were not so, then babies could not die because they would not be subject to death.

Death reigned from Adam till Moses even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression. Even Babies die and death is penal.

“And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
(Gen 1:11-12 KJVS)

Ron's: Animals also die but not because they were in Adam.

This process of reproduction is referred to in John 12:24 as 'death'. Death is not always penal, sometimes, as with the animals it is not penal but consequential.

This does damage to my theory that somehow the sin-nature is still to be dealt with through death.

Animals also die but not because they were in Adam.

Animals die because of the curse upon the whole creation brought about by Adams's sin as the head of the whole race and as the one who had "dominion" over all the beast of the field.

And just so, Romans 8:21,22 "in hope that the creation itself will also be freed from slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the Children of God, For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now...

Brother, we need to derive of theology from the scripture and not impose our own logic and concepts into the bible.

The fact from scripture is that the whole creation is in slavery to corruption as a result of Adam's sin and fall and the curse upon the whole earth as a result. And also as a result of Christ's redemption, the creation itself will be delivered from slavery to corruption through the One who has reconciled "all things' unto Himself in Christ.

The Bible is clear, the doctrine of the fall is clear, the truth of man's condemnation is clear, the truth of the creations penal subjection to corruption is clear and the fact of Christ's redemption is clear.

In the end, the consumation of Christ's redemption we have the New Jeruslalem in the New Earth under the New Heavens in which there is no sin and all negative things are in the lake of fire. In the Eternal Age there is no death, no corruption, but God in Christ is All in all and "behold, all things are new". A New heavens and a New Earth in which there is on corruption, no death, but God is all in all.

Graftedbranch