Abrahams Boosm

Stever responds:

In the Book of Luke Christ told us about this place----Abraham's Bosom. A place where the prophet Abraham was confined to. In the parable, Christ compares Abraham's Bosom, where those who will eventually go to heaven live, with Hell, where all sinners go when they die:

Luke 16:19-31
19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

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In the Book of Psalms we read the prophecy that the Messiah will take "Captivity Captive":
Psalms 68:18-19
" 18. Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them. 19. Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

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In the New Testament it is revealed to us that Christ has fulfilled this prophecy, and also tells us that before ascending he descended to the lower parts of the earth:

Ephesians 4:7-10

7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Psalms 16 gives us more insight in that it tells us that Christ (Messaih) will not be left in hell and that he will not see corruption:

Psalms 16:9-11
9. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

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In the new testament, after the cross, Paul tells us that to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now that the sin problem is taken care of, we all go immediately to heaven!

2 Cor 5:6-8
" 6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I hope this is what you wanted, Logic.

God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever responds to Logic:

PARADISE is only mentioned 3 times in Scripture. Once, by Jesus Christ, before his death and resurrection, Once by Paul, and once by Christ again in Revelation:

Luke 23 tells us that Abrahams bosom was called Paradise, before Christ’s resurrection:

39. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41. And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in PARADISE.

2nd Cor 12 indicates to us that Heaven is now referred to as Paradise:

2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In Revelation 2:7, we find Paradise mentioned again, which describes Heaven:

7.\tHe that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God.

God bless,

Stever :-)

letsgetbusy wrote:
Is it possible that the captives were held by death, and that was the prison? Not really a place, but a state. Like OT saints were resting until Christ returned? Not spiritually hanging around, just spiritually asleep?

Just a thought. Is there any Scripture that contradicts this idea?

Stever responds:

Spiritual sleep is a false teaching of the 7th Day Adventist Church, and is doctrine that is not found in the Christian Church.

God bless,

Stever

Logic posted:

"What do you mean? Jesus believed in this.
Matthew 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn."

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Stever's response:

So, based upon your understanding of the word "sleep", the above refers to Jesus and his raising the maid from "sleep"??

Or, that Jesus Christ never DIED on the cross, he just gave up the Ghost and went to "sleep"?

This is Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary definition of sleep:

1. To take rest by a suspension of the voluntary exercise of the powers of the body and mind. The proper time to sleep in during the darkness of night.

2. To rest; to be unemployed; to be inactive or motionless; as, the sword sleeps in its sheath.

3. To rest; to lie or be still; not to be noticed or agitated. The question sleeps for the present.

4. To live thoughtlessly. We sleep over our happiness.

[b][color=FF0000]5. TO BE DEAD ; to rest in the grave for a time. I Thessalonians 4.[/color][/b]

6. To be careless, inattentive or unconcerned; not be vigilant.
SLEEP, n. That state of an animal in which the voluntary exertion of his mental and corporeal powers is suspended, and he rests unconscious of what passes around him, and not affected by the ordinary impressions of external objects. Sleep is generally attended with a relaxation of the muscles, but the involuntary motions, as respiration and the circulation of the blood, are continued. The mind is often very active in sleep; but its powers not being under the control of reason, its exercises are very irregular. Sleep is the natural rest or repose intended by the Creator to restore the powers of the body and mind, when exhausted or fatigued.

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Please note #5 above and compare it to the rest of the definitions.

The 7th Day Adventists believe in this FALSE DOCTRINE OF "SOUL SLEEP" (SOUL SLEEP- THAT OUR SOULS ALL SLEEP, WHILE WE ALL WAIT FOR THE RESURRECTION), [b][color=0000FF]that has never been part of Christian Orthodoxy [/color][/b].

Sleep is only a reference to death. When the believer died before the cross, his soul went to Abrahams bosom, awaiting for the Messiah to eliminate sin. The believer today (since Christ has taken care of the sin problem) that dies goes immediately to heaven, in the presence of the Lord. The unsaved dead go immediately to hell, waiting for the great white throne judgment for the lost. The Bible tells us that Hell is a place of torment. Hardly something that anyone would have the good fortune to "sleep" through! We can even see that in the story that Christ told, that Hell was a place of torment at that time.

Nothing has changed here. It is only man, with his innate sin nature, trying to find "wiggle room" in regards to God's Word, and the doctrine that is established there. When we die, there is no "soul sleep". Our souls either go to be present with the Lord, if we are saved, or directly to hell, waiting in torment. One group awaits for their new resurrected body exactly like Christ's as well as for a judgment of rewards. The other group awaits for their resurrection and for final judgment at the great white throne. There, the lost are judged by their own works. The Chrisitan will not be present at the Great White Throne to be judged. How do we know that? Because the Christian is trusting in the woks that Christ performed on his behalf at Calvary to save him. The Christian understands that he can never be righteous himself, that any righteousness that he has is imputed to him by Jesus Christ. The lost, on the other hand compare themselves to others and say--hay, I am better than he is because he is an adulterer and I am not. God does not look at us in this way. We either are saved or lost. We are lost if we have ever committed one sin, by thought or deed. We are saved ONLY by our belief in Jesus Christ, and upon his birth, death, and resurrection, and upon His work for our behalf.

"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".....FOR THE SAVED!
[2 Cor 5:6-9]

God bless,

Stever :-)

Stever responds to Logic:

It seems to me that Paradise was a place in the Old Testament where saved man was waiting for Christ to come, to take away all sin, in order that he could go to heaven and be with God.

Today, after the Cross, Paradise is synomonious with Heaven, where God and saved man dwell together. Although the souls of men and women that have died in faith are there with God (in Heaven), time has ended for them because God is outside of time and space, and they are there, dwelling with God. At the rapture both those before the Cross, and those after the Cross will recieve their new resurrected bodies and be just like HIM (Jesus), at the same moment in time:

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (those believers that are living) shall be changed.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
[2 Cor 15:52-53 and others]

Also, the Saints will come with Christ at the second coming. Please notice that at the rapture he comes for His Saints--- in the Air, at the 2nd coming He comes with His Saints to the earth:

[Zechariah 14:1-5]
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE

God bless,

Stever :-)

Logic wrote:
Stever wrote:

It seems to me that Paradise was a place in the Old Testament where saved man was waiting for Christ to come, to take away all sin, in order that he could go to heaven and be with God.
Today, after the Cross...

You are forgetting that there is no before and after cross with GOD, because of this verse...

[b]Rev 13:8[/b] [color=990000] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of [b]the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/b][/color]
And
[b]Rom 4:17[/b] [color=990000]GOD....calleth those things which be not as though they were.[/color]

There was no need for a place to wait for Jesus to come and die on the cross, even you agree that...

God is outside of time and space

I may be a little slow on answering in this thread untill tuesday, because my internet is out untill then.

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Stever responds to Logic:

Psalms 16:10 gives us the Propehcy that the Holy One (Messiah) will not be left in hell. It also tells us that his body will not see corruption. Why? Because He will be resurrected from the dead!

“10. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Psalms 68:18 tells us that Messiah will lead Captivity Captive (Old Testament believers that believed in the Messiah to come, and because of their belief did not go to hell, but to a place adjacent to it called Abraham’s Bosom, as described to us by Jesus)

18.Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.
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Ephesians 4:7-12 tells us that Jesus Christ fulfilled the both prophecies above:

“ But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8.\tWherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
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1 Peter 3:19-22 tells us that Christ also witnessed to the unsaved, when he went to the “lower parts of the earth” as prophesized in Psalms 16:10, as wells as fulfilled in Ephesians 4:7-12

“19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

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Eventhough I do not particularly like the “Living Bible” because it is a Paraphrase, I find it sometimes interesting to look at the same verses in 1 Peter 3:19-22 and compare to the King James:

“19. and it was in the spirit that he visited the spirits in prison, and preached to them--
20. spirits of those who, long before in the days of Noah, had refused to listen to God, though he waited patiently for them while Noah was building the ark. Yet only eight persons were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.
21. (That, by the way, is what baptism pictures for us: In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ; not because our bodies are washed clean by the water, but because in being baptized we are turning to God and asking him to cleanse our hearts from sin.)
22. And now Christ is in heaven, sitting in the place of honor next to God the Father, with all the angels and powers of heaven bowing before him and obeying him.”

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Who exactly was held captive in Abraham’s bosom? All of the “Heroes of Faith” that are mentioned in the New Testament, that all lived before the cross, that can be found in Hebrews, Chapter 11:

“4. By faith Abel
5. By faith Enoch
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7. By faith Noah
8. By faith Abraham with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
11. Through faith also Sara

13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

22. By faith Joseph,
23. By faith Moses, Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

31. By faith the harlot Rahab
32. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
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What were these saints before the Cross all about?
34. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36. And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38. (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
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Many say that the story of Abraham’s bosom is a parable, but it is not. Why? Because actual names are given, and thus it is not a parable but a description of an actual place provided to us by Jesus Christ himself.

Luke 16:19-31 gives us the description of an actual place, with real names, of a place called Abrahams bosom. It is also called Paradise at this time, because Christ told the thief on the cross that “today you will be with me in paradise”. He did not ascend to heaven for 3 days, but His (Christ’s soul) was in the belly of the earth. First on the side of Abrahams bosom, where He dropped the thief off, and then he went to the other side, Hell, and “preached to the captives before the flood”:

“19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Logic wrote:
IRONMAN wrote:

no one could go to heaven right away (except Enoch and then Elijah who were taken by Him) so there was need for a place of holding.

Answer both why and how Enoch and Elijah could be with God and the righteous dead couldn't?

Abraham's Bosom is part of the holding place called hell.

If you get this from the great gulf fixed between the rich man & Lazerus both being in hell, I say that the gulf is from heaven to hell; Lazerus being in heaven & the rich man being in hell.

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Abrahams Bosom and Hell are two different places, as explained by Christ:

Luke 16:2023
"20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21.And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22.And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

In regards to Enoch and Elijah, I personally think that these two are going to be the “two witnesses” during the Tribulation. The reason, they never died, and to receive their resurrected bodies, they will have to come back to die. Where is God keeping them now? This is not revealed to us in Scripture.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Ccchhrriiisss posted:
"Still, I think it can be problematic to make definitive doctrines out of issues that are not totally clear from the Scriptures."

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Stever's response:

The Catholics feel the same way, especially about the Book of Revelation, as well as Genesis. They say it is an "allegory".

"The Bible should not be read allegorically."

This statement, or the equivalent, may be commonly heard in evangelical, fundamental, or charismatic churches. Conservative Christians believe the Bible is factually, historically true: that it must be read and understood literally, and not spiritualized into an allegory. Though this sounds very pious and orthodox, there's one small flaw in this position -- it seems no one told the apostles, or Jesus! For all the writers of the New Testament, and Jesus Himself in the Gospel accounts, refer to the Old Testament PRIMARILY as spiritual allegory. (Of course, we may excuse their oversight, since they never went to seminary!)

According to Webster's dictionary, an allegory is "The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form." If we look in the New Testament, we find that the NORMAL and USUAL interpretation of Old Testament Scripture is allegorical in nature.

Let us look first at the Gospel authors' use of Old Testament Scripture. We may go straight through the Gospel of Matthew (which is the New Testament book richest in Old Testament citations) and tick off one allegorical reference after another.

"You shall call his name Emmanuel" (Matthew 1:23, referring to Isaiah 7:14) This is not a literal reference to Jesus' name, but a figurative reference to His nature. The allegorical nature of this prophecy is even more clearly seen in Isaiah 7:15ff., where the destruction of Judah's enemies represents the downfall of Satan and his cohorts through the death and resurrection of Christ.

"Out of Egypt I have called my son" (Matthew 2:15, referring to Hosea 11:1) Here an allegorical comparison is made between the Exodus and the circumstances of Jesus' infancy, showing that Jesus is the one who will bring His people out of bondage.

"A voice was heard in Rama, Rachel weeping for her children …" (Matthew 2:18, referring to Jeremiah 31:15) Matthew compares Jeremiah's description of the Babylonian captivity with Herod's massacre of the infants in Bethlehem. The comparison is purely allegorical, for the factual details are quite different. Herod's massacre took place in Bethlehem and not Rama, which is a town belonging to the tribe of Benjamin. Those who were killed were not even Rachel's offspring but Leah's, because Bethlehem belonged to the tribe of Judah. The two events, though factually disparate, are undergirded by the same spiritual principle, namely the unrighteous ravage God's people because they have wandered from Him.

Next, we look at the Epistles. Paul in particular is extremely creative in his allegorical treatment of the Old Testament. We should of course mention his description of the story of Hagar and Sarah as an allegory for the old and new covenants (this is the only place in the Bible that the word "allegory" is used explicitly).

Paul's other interpretations are no less allegorical. He takes Genesis 2:24, " Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh", and applies it PRIMARILY to Christ's marriage to the Church, then SECONDARILY to human marriage.

Paul even interprets the Mosaic law allegorically. For instance, Paul takes the instruction, "Do not muzzle the ox which treads out the grain", as a characteristic instantiation of a general principle, that the laborer (whether man or beast) should be allowed to partake of the firstfruits of his own labor (1 Corinthians 9:7-10). As another example, Paul takes the Law's permission for widows to marry, and applies it to our death to the law and remarriage by faith to the resurrected Christ (Romans 7).

Apart from Paul, Peter in his epistles also made use of allegory, comparing the waters of Noah's flood with the saving waters of believers' baptism (1 Peter 3:20-21). The writer of Hebrews takes the figure of Isaac's deliverance from sacrifice to represent the resurrection of the faithful (Hebrews 11:17-19).

Finally, let us look at Jesus' own allegorical use of the Scriptures. Recall Jesus' famous statement as recorded by John: "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man shall be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in Him should have everlasting life" (John 3:14). In this brief statement, the episode of Israel's rescue from the fiery serpents is unveiled as an allegorical representation of our eternal salvation through Jesus' death. Another striking example is Matthew 12:40, "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth", which indicates an allegorical parallel between the ministries of Jonah and Jesus.

In effect, all of the Old Testament Scriptures comprise a living allegory. Jesus summed them up by saying, "These testify of Me" (John 5:39). But as we have already seen, the testimony of the Scriptures is not through direct, literal reference, but rather through dramatic or pictorial representation.

The Bible is nothing if not an allegory. But it is an allegory with a difference. It is a living allegory, acted out through real people and genuine events rather than invented characters and imagined plots. It is God's novel, written originally in flesh and blood and only later set down with paper and ink.

The Bible is indeed an extremely practical book. Nonetheless, the Bible must be understood as spiritual allegory first, before it can be applied practically. Take for instance the Song of Solomon. Historically, many commentators have viewed the Song as an allegory for Christ and the Church. However, many modern evangelical authorities are denying this interpretation, and treating the book instead as a practical manual for love in marriage. But when Jesus said, "These Scriptures testify of Me", He made no exceptions for the Song of Songs! ALL of the Old Testament scriptures, Song of Songs included, are primarily intended to bear witness of Him. Not to say it does not tell us something about sexual love! But before we can apply this book properly to human sexuality, we must understand how it applies spiritually to Christ and His bride. If we do not, we will inevitably misuse the Scriptures -- just as the Pharisees misused the Law, because they did not understand its fulfillment through Christ.

Prayer: Father, grant us grace that we might truly be workmen worthy of Your approbation, and that we might rightly divide Your Word of Truth(2 Timothy 2:15).

God bless,

Stever :-D

Ccchhhrrriiisss posted:

“I believe that we need to be careful about doing this. Should we isolate ourselves from those with whom we simply disagree? I am not speaking about what is completely clear from the Scriptures. But often, one groups of believers treat with contempt those that do not agree with their particular doctrinal beliefs. Entire denominations form over peculiarities of interpretation. I truly feel that some things should be left to the individual believer to make up his/her own conclusion on a matter -- rather than having it forced as a matter of affiliation.”

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Stever’s reponse:

I have found that the Scripture is quite clear on the issues that I have posted. There is much prophecy in the Old Testament, that is fulfilled in the New. Specific fulfillment of Prophecy that when it is fulfilled in the New Testament refers to what is prophesized in the Old Testament. What is wonderful about Christianity is that each of us has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the God of the Universe. It is not a Religion, it is a relationship.

This specific thread is Scripture and Doctrine, and that is what we are discussing- Scripture and Doctrine as it relates to Abraham’s Bosom and those that were saved before the Cross.

There is nothing to be “careful about” if we stick to God’s Word the Bible and focus on that alone, and what it teaches us. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

If you think there are OTHER meanings to the prophecy that I have quoted in regards to the Messiah in the Old Testament, and fulfilled in the New Testament, then please post it.

Again, go through what I have posted, and point out my error.

We are all here to learn and to share Christ Jesus Crucified.
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Ccchhhrrriiisss posted:

"................ Unfortunately, it is difficult to find two believers that agree on everything. It is usually the small interpretations that divide the Body of Christ."
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Stever's response:

The Body of Christ will continue to be "divided" until He comes again to rule and reign with a rod of iron. It is the mantra of Catholocism and "eccumenicism" and the council of World Churches to all join together,and put aside our differences, and divisions, and combine into a one world Church Body.

Once this is a done deal, the church that is created will go forward into the Tribulation, led by the false prophet.

God bless,

Stever :-D

IRONMAN POSTED:
well if abraham's bosom is heaven, it's certainly not referred to as such in the revelation for instance which leads me to believe that heaven and abraham's bosom are 2 different places.

Stever responds:

I think the reason it is not mentioned in Revelation is because when Christ ascended on the first day of the week He took "Captivity Captive" with Him to Heaven, and cleared Abraham's bosom out.

There was no need for it once He took care of the sin problem.

God bless,

Stever :-D

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Stever

you said:

Stever wrote:
IRONMAN POSTED:
well if abraham's bosom is heaven, it's certainly not referred to as such in the revelation for instance which leads me to believe that heaven and abraham's bosom are 2 different places.

Stever responds:

I think the reason it is not mentioned in Revelation is because when Christ ascended on the first day of the week He took "Captivity Captive" with Him to Heaven, and cleared Abraham's bosom out.

There was no need for it once He took care of the sin problem.

God bless,

Stever :-D

does this mean you think Abraham's bosom and heaven are 2 different places? :-?

to me it seems if the 2 were the same it would be obvious. or maybe i'm missing something? :-?

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Stever's response to IRONMAN:

Abrahms bosom was referred to as Paradise in ancient Judaism. Christ told the theif on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise", meaning Abrahams Bosom.

Today, Abrahams bosom has been emptied, and now Heaven is referred to as "Paradise"
2 Cor 12:
"3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities."

Christ refers to this place (Paradise) in Revelation as a place where believers and God are together:
7. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

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In conclusion, there is never again mention of Abrahams bosom after Christ's resurrection from the dead, when he led captivity captive to heaven. Paradise is now synominous with a place where man and God come together,in Heaven.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Stever responds to Ccchhhrrriiisss:

The teaching that I have posted here was common 30-40 years ago, before the change to the "NIV" and all of the "Newer Versions".

If you disagree with my conclusions, then give me your understanding of the same scripture. Be specific, and respond to what I have posted. I have quoted Scripture to support my position, and as of yet you have not. If you disagree, then give us your answer from Scripture.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Ccchhhrrriiisss posted:

"I was raised in a Church that taught that Abraham's bosom was simply a holding place for the righteous before Christ's victory over death. However, IT DOES SOUND AN AWFUL LOT LIKE PURGATORY. In my opinion, it may simply be that Lazarus was within Abraham's embrace when the Rich Man noticed him. Or were we possibly seeing timeless eternity rather than Earthly present? Regardless, I cannot state with absolute certainty any truth in this matter."
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Stever responds:

Purgatory is totally false doctrine and cannot be found in the Bible. It is Catholic doctrine.

All of the people in Abraham's bosom were saved, in direct contrast to those that were lost on the other side in hell.

All believers are made righteous by their belief in Messiah, Jesus Christ, the Seed of the Woman.

Christ's righteousness is imputed to all believers. We have no need to go to a place to make us clean. Christ's blood cleanses us all, both before and after the cross. Our "work" is to believe in Him. Those before the cross had to wait until He finished His work at the cross and at the resurrection.

This is the False Doctrine of Purgatory:

I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).
Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

Temporal Punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Venial Sins

All sins are not equal before God, nor dare anyone assert that the daily faults of human frailty will be punished with the same severity that is meted out to serious violation of God's law. On the other hand whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Habakkuk 1:13). For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.

So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity. ("Aeneid," VI, 735 sq.; Sophocles, "Antigone," 450 sq.).

II. ERRORS

Epiphanius (haer., lxxv, P.G., XLII, col. 513) complains that Acrius (fourth cent.) taught that prayers for the dead were of no avail. In the Middle Ages, the doctrine of purgatory was rejected by the Albigenses, Waldenses, and Hussites. St. Bernard (Serm. lxvi in Cantic., P. L. CLXXXIII, col. 1098) states that the so-called "Apostolici" denied purgatory and the utility of prayers for the departed. Much discussion has arisen over the position the Greeks on the question of purgatory. It would seem that the great difference of opinion not concerning the existence of purgatory but concerning the nature of purgatorial fire; still St. Thomas proves the existence of purgatory in his dissertation against the errors of the Greeks, and the Council of Florence also thought necessary to affirm the belief of the Church on the subject (Bellarmine, "De Purgatorio," lib. I, cap. i). The modern Orthodox Church denies purgatory, but is rather inconsistent in its way of putting forth its belief.

At the beginning of the Reformation there was some hesitation especially on Luther's part (Leipzig Disputation) as to whether the doctrine should be retained, but as the breach widened, the denial of purgatory by the Reformers became universal, and Calvin termed the Catholic position "exitiale commentum quod crucem Christi evacuat . . . quod fidem nostram labefacit et evertit" (Institutiones, lib. III, cap. v, 6). Modern Protestants, while they avoid the name purgatory, frequently teach the doctrine of "the middle state," and Martensen ("Christian Dogmatics," Edinburgh, 1890, p. 457) writes: "As no soul leaves this present existence in a fully complete and prepared state, we must suppose that there is an intermediate state, a realm of progressive development, (?) in which souls are prepared for the final judgment" (Farrar, "Mercy and Judgment," London, 1881, cap. iii).

III. PROOFS

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God? So true is this position that prayers for the dead and the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls. Those who have opposed the doctrine of purgatory have confessed that prayers for the dead would be an unanswerable argument if the modern doctrine of a "particular judgment" had been received in the early ages. But one has only to read the testimonies hereinafter alleged to feel sure that the Fathers speak, in the same breath, of oblations for the dead and a place of purgation; and one has only to consult the evidence found in the catacombs to feel equally sure that the Christian faith there expressed embraced clearly a belief in judgment immediately after death. Wilpert ("Roma Sotteranea," I, 441) thus concludes chapt. xxi, "Che tale esaudimento", etc.,

Intercession has been made for the soul of the dear one departed and God has heard the prayer, and the soul has passed into a place of light and refreshment." "Surely," Wilpert adds, "such intercession would have no place were there question not of the particular, but of the final judgment.
Some stress too has been laid upon the objection that the ancient Christians had no clear conception of purgatory, and that they thought that the souls departed remained in uncertainty of salvation to the last day; and consequently they prayed that those who had gone before might in the final judgment escape even the everlasting torments of hell. The earliest Christian traditions are clear as to the particular judgment, and clearer still concerning a sharp distinction between purgatory and hell. The passages alledged as referring to relief from hell cannot offset the evidence given below (Bellarmine, "De Purgatorio," lib. II, cap. v). Concerning the famous case of Trajan, which vexed the Doctors of the Middle Ages, see Bellarmine, loc. cit., cap. Viii.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Logic posted:

"It doesn't make sence that Enoch and Elijah go to heaven but the rest can not.

Quote:
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From Stever:

Where is God keeping them now? This is not revealed to us in Scripture.
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Logic continues:

They are a given to represeant a picture of the rapture.
Therefor they are in heaven.
2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It would not make sence to go up then back down to Abrahams Bosom if that is where it is.

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Stever's response:

Abraham's bosom was for the Spirits of those that were saved, not for men of flesh and blood.

Both Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven, but where? They were still in their bodies of flesh and blood. God can do whatever he wants to do, I know that. However, there is no mention of where they are in Heaven. A special place, just for them. I don't know. It is not clear. Some Bible teachers think they are in a special place. I am not sure.

God bless,

Stever :-D

IRONMAN wrote:
thanks bro stever, i think i got it now.

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God bless you and be with you always, IRONMAN!

Steve :-D

Logic posted:

Why do you think that they didn't have Glorified bodies?
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

We know that the Mount of Transfiguration is a view into Jesus Kingdom, therefore Elijah, just as Moses, would have been in his glorified body here;
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

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[b][color=0000FF]Jesus Christ, the Firstfruits of the Resurrection[/color][/b]

Stever's response to Logic:

Because Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection. He is the first man resurrected into a new glorified body, and those that believe in Him will follow at specified times. We will still be part of the "Firstfruits", part of the "First Resurrection".

1 Cor. 15:20-23 offers the teaching on this:
" 20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Christ is the first of the Resurrection, and all believers will follow Christ.

The Bible reveals that there will be more than one resurrection and more than one judgment.

If we look in Matthew, we have a picture of Christ’s second coming to the earth, where he separates the Sheep from the Goats. Please notice that He comes as a thief, to kill and destroy. This description is given to the Jews by Jesus Christ, and occurs at the end of the Tribulation:

Matthew 25:31-34

31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

This is a description of the Goats, that were all lost, who were/will be sent to everlasting punishment.

“41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

However, this is not a description of the Great White Throne Judgment, where all of the damned are called from their graves, and are judged for their own works. This event (The Great White throne Judgment) takes place at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, and will include all of unsaved dead, including those who were sent to punishment in hell at the end of the Tribulation:

The Harvest Imagery

In Bible times the harvest was conducted in three stages. It began with the gathering of the first fruits which were offered as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God.

It proceeded with the general harvest. But not all was taken in this harvest. Some of the crop was left in the field to be gathered by the poor and the needy. This was called the gleanings (Leviticus 19:9-10).

Using this imagery, the Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

But there is a third and final stage to this resurrection of the righteous. It is the gleanings, and it occurs at the end of the Tribulation when the Lord's Second Coming takes place. At that time two final groups of the righteous will be resurrected: 1) the Tribulation martyrs (Revelation 20:4), and 2) the Old Testament saints (Dan 12:2).

Some people are startled by the thought that the Old Testament saints will not be resurrected until the end of the Tribulation. But keep in mind that the Rapture is a promise to the Church, and the Church only. Also, the book of Daniel makes it clear that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at the end of the "time of distress" (Daniel 12:1-2).
So the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous, occurs in three stages, beginning with Christ, continuing with the Church at the Rapture, and culminating with the Tribulation martyrs and the Old Testament saints at the return of Jesus.

The Resurrection of the Unjust

The second type of resurrection, "the resurrection of the wicked" (Acts 24:15), will take place all at one time at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus. This is at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment, the judgment of the damned (Revelation 20:11-15).

Every person who ever failed to relate to God in faith will be resurrected at this time, regardless of when he or she may have lived and died — whether before or after the Cross. This resurrection will also include the unjust who died during the Tribulation and the Millennium.
There will be no need for an additional resurrection of the righteous at the end of the Millennium, because all those born during that time who accept Jesus as their Savior will live to the end of the Lord's reign (Isaiah 65:19-20). "'As the lifetime of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,'. . . says the Lord" (Isaiah 65:22,25). In other words, life spans during the Millennium will be returned to what they were at the beginning of time, before the flood.

The Certainty of Judgment

Resurrection will be followed by judgment. Solomon wrote, "Fear God and keep His commandments . . . For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).
The apostle Paul emphasized the certainty of judgment. In Romans 2:16 he wrote, "God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." And in Romans 14:10,12 he stated, "We shall all stand before the judgment seat of God . . . So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God." The writer to the Hebrews summed it up succinctly: "It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

The Completed Judgment

But not all people are going to be judged at the same time. Just as there are going to be several resurrections (all part of the Firstfruits of the Resurrection started by Christ, and continuing as the “First” Resurrection) there are also going to be several judgments.
One judgment has already taken place. It is the judgment of believers for their sins.

This comes as a surprise to most Christians. Some find it hard to believe.

Let me put it to you in another way. If you are truly born again, then you will never stand before the Lord and be judged of your sins. That's because the judgment for your sins took place at the Cross.

You see, all your sins, and mine, were placed upon Jesus as He hung upon the Cross, and the wrath we deserve was poured out upon Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). He became our substitute. He took our judgment for sin (Romans 8:3 and Galatians 3:13).

If you have appropriated the blood of Jesus to your life by accepting Him as your Lord and Savior, then your sins have been forgiven. They have also been forgotten in the sense that God will never remember them against you again (Isaiah 43:25 and Hebrews 8:12).

Think of it — forgiven and forgotten! That is grace!

The Judgment of the Just

If the Redeemed will never be judged of their sins, then what will they be judged of, and when will the judgment take place?
The Bible teaches that the Redeemed will be judged of their works, not to determine their eternal destiny, but to determine their degrees of reward.

Christians do not work to be saved; they work because they are saved. In fact, the Bible says they are saved to do good works (Ephesians 2:10 and Titus 2:14). Such good works, if properly done, will be done in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 4:11) and for the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

The Significance of Spiritual Gifts

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 that every person who is born again receives at least one supernatural spiritual gift from the Holy Spirit. A person may receive more than one gift. And, if you are a good steward of the gifts you receive, then you may receive additional gifts as you develop spiritually (Luke 19:26).
God expects us to use our spiritual gifts to advance His kingdom. This is what the judgment of works will be all about. Each of us who are redeemed will stand before the Lord Jesus and give an accounting of how we used our gifts to advance the kingdom of God on earth.
We will be judged as to the quantity of our works (Luke 19:11-27; Romans 2:6-7). We will be judged as to the quality of our works (1 Corinthians 3:10-14). Finally, we will be judged as to the motivation of our works ( 1 Corinthians 4:5).

I can imagine some famous evangelist being brought before the Lord for judgment.
"How did you use your spiritual gifts to advance my kingdom?" asks the Lord.
"I used my gifts as a teacher and evangelist to preach the gospel to millions," replies the preacher."Yes," says the Lord, "you certainly did that. But, I know your heart, and thus I know your motivation. You preached not because you loved Me but because you wanted to become famous. You wanted to have your picture published on the cover of Time magazine. You accomplished that in February of 2006. Here's your picture. That's all the reward I have for you!"

And then I can imagine the Lord calling up a little old lady that no one has ever heard of.
"Dear, on the day you accepted Me as your Lord and Savior, I gave you one gift — the gift of mercy. And every time someone was ill, you were the first to offer comfort and encouragement. You were the one who organized the prayer chain. Every time someone went to the hospital, you were the first to visit them. Every time someone died, you were the one who organized the meals. And you did all of these things simply because you loved me."

The Lord will give her a crown full of so many jewels that she will have a neck ache for eternity!

Seriously, there will be degrees of rewards. They will be manifested in the crowns we receive (2 Timothy 4:7-8), the robes we wear (Revelation 19:8), and the degrees of ruling authority which we exercise with the Lord (Luke 19:11-27).

The Timing of the Judgments

When and where will the judgment of the Redeemed take place? The Bible indicates the judgment of believers who have lived and died during the Church Age will occur in Heaven before the judgment seat of Jesus, immediately following the Rapture of the Church (2 Corinthians 5:10 and Revelation 19:6-9).

Those who are saved and martyred during the Tribulation will be judged at the end of that period when they are resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ (Revelation 20:4). The Tribulation saints who live to the end of that terrible period are another group that will be judged at the Second Coming of Jesus in "the sheep and goat judgment" portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. The Old Testament saints will also be judged at the time of the Second Coming (Ezekiel 20:34-38).

All the unrighteous who have ever lived will be resurrected and judged at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus.

The Judgment of the Unjust

The terrible judgment of the unrighteous is pictured in Revelation 20:11-15. It is called the "Great White Throne" judgment.
We are told that the wicked also will be judged of their works. But their judgment will be radically different from the judgment of the Redeemed. Whereas the Redeemed are judged of their works to determine their degrees of reward, the lost are judged of their works to determine their eternal destiny.

And since no one can be justified before God by their works (Isaiah 64:6 and Ephesians 2:8-10), all will be condemned to Hell. That's why I call this judgment "the judgment of the damned."
The unjust are also judged for another reason. There are going to be degrees of punishment (Luke 12:35-48; 20:45-47).

There is a popular myth in Christendom that says, "All sin is equal in the eyes of God." That is not true. The only way in which all sin is equal is that any sin, whether a white lie or murder, condemns us before God and necessitates a Savior.

But all sin is not equal in the eyes of God. For example, Proverbs 6:16-19 lists seven sins that the Lord particularly hates, including "hands that shed innocent blood." And the Bible makes it very clear that idolatry is a sin that is especially heinous in the eyes of God (Exodus 20:3-5).

Because God considers some sins worse than others, there will be degrees of punishment (Revelation 22:12), and these degrees will be specified at the Great White Throne judgment.

A Call to Repentance

Where do we stand with respect to the inevitable judgment which we will face before the Lord?

If you are a Christian, do you know what spiritual gifts you have been given? Are you using them to advance the Lord's kingdom? Is your motivation a love of the Lord?

If you have never confessed Jesus as your Lord and Savior, do you really want to participate in the judgment of the damned? Do you realize that the Bible says, "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"? That means Hitler and every vile person like him who has ever lived will one day make the confession of Jesus' lordship. You will too.

We should all make that confession now so that you we participate in the resurrection and judgment of the righteous. As we consider our decision, we should weigh carefully the following words from the book of Hebrews:

"Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him" — Hebrews 9:28

Notice carefully that this verse promises that for those who are ready for Him, Jesus will come "without reference to sin."

That is a wonderful promise.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Stever responds to ccchhhrrriiisss:

If you feel the way that you do on this issue, then it is best for you to be silent.

I feel that Scripture supports the position that I have taken. This is not alegory, as I have stated previously. Alegories never mention specific names of people or specific locations. These Words are from Chist himself.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Christinyou wrote:
and this one: Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
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Stever's response: These, resurrected from the dead did not receive new resurrected bodies like Christ's. They died, just like Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead.

The resurrection that we are discussing is the "Firstfruits". Christ was the first of the "Firstfruits" of the resurrection. He resurrected from the dead on Sunday, the first day of the week, and also the day of the celebration of the "Firstfruits". Jesus is alive, at this minute, in Heaven, sitting at the right hand of the father. The other people you mention above are in heaven, waiting for the resurrection.
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Christ in you posted:

Enoch most certainly is with God.

Stever responds:

Yes, but God took Him in his body of flesh and blood. The Bible tells us that Christ is the first man resurrected from the dead in a glorified body.

Enoch will probably receive his resurrection during the Tribulation if he is one of the two witnesses.
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Christinyou posts:
What about Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration.

Stever responds:
This again was only a preview of coming events. Christ was not glorified yet, and neither were Moses and Elijah. Since that time we know that Christ has been glorified, in His new body of flesh and bone. However, Moses and Elijah will have to wait until later to receive theirs.
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Christinyou posted:
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Do you think this is the same translation as in:

Stever replies:

God took him "Enoch", but he has not received his resurrection body yet like Christ.
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Christ in you posted:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Stever responds:
You have just described the rapture, that occurs before the Tribulation and provides the dead in Christ, as well as those that are living (and saved) on the earth with new resurrected bodies, like that of Jesus Christ. Bodies in which they will live eternally with.

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Christinyou posted:

The ones that came out of the graves at Jesus's resurrection, doesn't say they were with the Lord, It says they walked into town, Jesus was still on the earth also. All very un understandable. I have ideas but no conclusions.

Stever responds:
Again, these men and women died. They resurrected and came back to life like Lazarus (Mary's brother) who had been in the grave for 4 days, and then died at a later date. They were not glorified like Christ was, and neither was Lazarus.

The difference here is the resurrection to eternal life that believers receive when they finally get their glorified bodies like that of Jesus Christ:
Luke 24:36-45
" And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE.And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, HAVE YE ANY MEAT (FOOD)? And they gave him a piece of a BROILED FISH, AND OF AN HONEYCOMB. And he took it, AND DID EAT IT BEFORE THEM. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
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In Christ: Phillip

P.S. These things are in the word, what do we do with them. Keep asking, I quess.
:-? :-? :-? :-?

Stever concludes:

We must study, to show ourselves approved unto God, a Workman that needs not to be ashamed, and be able to rightly divide the Word of Truth (The Bible).

The Bible teaches us all things. It has all things necessary for Doctrine.

1 Timothy 4 tells us:
9. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11. These things command and teach. 12. Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Stever responds to ccchhhrrriiisss;

The difference between us is probably 40 years in age. The gulf between us is as far as the east is from the west. I grew up at a time when Believers that had the Holy Bible in their hands knew that it was the very "Spirit Breathed" Word of God, passed down from the Disciples to the early Church, and finally in the form of the Protestant Bible, the King James Version. The teaching that took place then was dynamic and on fire, as the word of God that we studied was Spirit-Breathed.

Today, we have an entirely new generation. A generation raised on the belief that God, who created everything out of nothing, by the word, did not have the power to PRESERVE his Scriptures and they were lost and so now, in these last days has required the intellect and wisdom of sinful man, that has been able to RESTORE the scriptures. The Word of God that they read--the NIV, NASB, and all of the newer versions is changed or lacking from the Protestant Bible that was passed down to us and PRESERVED for us by the Soverign power of God.

We have gone head to head on Sermonindex since the first time I posted. That is fine with me, as I think everything that takes place in this regard glorifies God.

Like I have said to you on this thread (Abrahams Bosom), what I have presented here amounts to the teaching that was in the Churches 30-40 years ago. The Scripure that I have quoted SUPPORTS THE POSITION that I have taken.

As usual, you are the one that has not bothered to read this thread. If you would go back to the beginning, you would see that this has been a very interesting subject, with lots of input by Logic, IRONMAN, Christinyou and others. You are the only one that has come here with a "sky is falling", wringing your hands, hysterical attitude.

I would suggest that you examine yourself in this regards as to what you are trying to accomplish by your input on this thread.

If you have scripture to post that would add more light on this subject (Abraham's Bosom) --that would be very helpful. If you have scripture to quote that would modify our understanding of this issue (Abraham's bosom), that would be helpful as well.

If you have nothing to add to this thread, other than what you have posted to date, then I stand by my prior post. Silence.

God bless,

Stever :-D

ccchhhrrriiisss posted:

"It is sad when the conclusions of some believers are quickly disregarded by others who feel bold enough to state their own conclusions as fact. In my opinion, this sort of behavior is what leads to the greatest divisions in the Body of Christ"

Stever responds:

There will be nothing BUT DIVISION in the body of Christ until he comes to rule and reign during the millennium.

There will be, and there is a movement, starting with Roman Catholocism, that is working hand in hand with the World Council of Churches to unite all religions into one. The way this is brought about is that everyone of those Churches will compromise on the Truth presented in God's word, so that they can all get together and "GET ALONG" (As Rodney King said--"Why can't we all just get along!").

When they accomplish this feat, and they will, the Church that is created, the Great Whore, will be ready to march into the Tribulation, led by the False Prophet.

God bless,

Stever :-D

P.S. I posted this reponse to you once before about "division within the body of Christ", but you never answered it. That shows me that you probably never even read the response. If you disagree with what I have posted, please respond to this issue of "division within the body Christ".

Ccchhhrrriiisss:

We will just have to agree to disagree. The Scripture that I have quoted backs up my position on what I have posted. Whether you agree or disagree with my style or lack of style is of no interest to me. God’s Word and the doctrine found in it, and the teaching that it provides to those willing to study it is what motivates me to post here. I am responsible to God, and will answer to Him and Him alone on this matter.

We have gone over the issues before on various posts. It really is never going to change.

You have opinions, and have expressed them here. However, you never support your opinions with specific examples from my posts, only conclusions.

Your posts on this thread have provided no value in regards to the subject matter—Abrahams Bosom.

God bless,

Stever :-D

Stever posts:
There will be nothing BUT DIVISION in the body of Christ until he comes to rule and reign during the millennium.
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Ccchhhrrriiisss responds:

Wow -- do you have any Scripture to hold such a position? I believe that we will always have differences in opinion about doctrine -- but the true Body of Christ can all agree on the major tenets of the faith (such as are written in Hebrews 6:1-2).

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Stever responds to ccchhhrrriiisss:

Division is not always bad! These are the very Words of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 10:
"34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

This is what A W Tozer had to say about DIVISION:

Division Is Not Always Bad
A W Tozer
When to unite and when to divide, that is the question, and a right answer requires the wisdom of a Solomon.
Some settle the problem by rule of thumb: All union is good and all division bad. It's that easy. But obviously this effortless way of dealing with the matter ignores the lessons of history and overlooks some of the deep spiritual laws by which men live.

If good men were all for union and bad men for division, or vice versa, that would simplify things for us. Or if it could be shown that God always unites and the devil always divides it would be easy to find our way around in this confused and confusing world. But that is not how things are.

To divide what should be divided and unite what should be united is the part of wisdom. Unions of dissimilar elements is never good even where it is possible, nor is the arbitrary division of elements that are alike; and this is as certainly true of things moral and religious as of things political or scientific.

The first divider was God who at the creation divided the light from the darkness. This division set the direction for all God's dealings in nature and in grace. Light and darkness are incompatible; to try to have both in the same place at once is to try the impossible and end by havng neither the one nor the other, but dimness rather, and obscurity.
In the world of men there are at present scarcely any sharp outlines. The race is fallen. Sin has brought confusion. The wheat grows with the tares, the sheep and the goats coexist, the farms of the just and the unjust lie side by side in the landscape, the mission is next door to the saloon.

But things will not always be so. The hour is coming when the sheep with be divided from the goats and the tares separated from the wheat. God will again divide the light from the darkness and all things will run to their kind. Tares will go into the fire with tares and wheat into the garner with wheat. The dimness will lift like a fog and all outlines will appear. Hell will be seen to be hell all the way through, and heaven revealed as the one home of all who bear the nature of the one God.

For that time we with patience wait. In the meanwhile for each of us, and for the church wherever she appears in human society, the constantly recurring question must be: What shall we unite with and from what shall we separate? The question of coexistence does not enter here, but the question of union and fellowship does. THE WHEAT GROWS IN THE SAME FIELD WITH THE TARES, BUT SHALL THE TWO CROSS-POLINATE? The sheep graze near the goats, but shall they seek to interbreed? The unjust and the just enjoy the same rain and sunshine, but shall they forget their deep moral differences and intermarry?

To these questions the popular answer is yes. Union for union's sake, and men shall be brothers be for a' that. Unity is so devoutly to be desired that no price is too high to pay for it and nothing is important enough to keep us apart. Truth is slain to provide a feast to celebrate the marriage of heaven and hell, and all to support a concept of unity which has no basis in the Word of God.

The Spirit-illuminated church will have none of this. In a fallen world like ours unity is no treasure to be purchased at the price of [u][b][color=FF0000]compromise[/color][/b][/u]. Loyalty to God, faithfulness and truth and the preservation of a good conscience are jewels more precious than gold of Ophir or diamonds from the mine. For these jewels men have suffered the loss of property, imprisonment and even death; for them, even in recent times, behind the various curtains, followers of Christ have paid the last full measure of devotion and quietly died, unknown to and unsung by the great world, but known to God and dear to His Father heart.

In the day that shall declare the secrets of all souls these shall come forth to receive the deeds done in the body. Surely such as these are wiser philosophers than the religious camp followers of meaningless unity who have not the courage to stand against the vogues and who bleat for brotherhood only because it happens to be for the time popular.
"Divide and conquer" is the cynical slogan of Machiavellian political leaders, but Satan knows how to unite and conquer. To bring a nation to its knees the aspiring dictator must unite it. By repeated appeals to national pride or to the need to avenge some past or present wrong the demagogue succeeds in uniting the populace behind him. It is easy after that to take control of the military and to beat the legislature into submission. Then follows almost perfect unity indeed, but it is the unity of the stockyards and the concentration camp. We have seen this happen several times in this century, and the world will see it at least once more when the nations of the earth are united under Antichrist.

When confused sheep start over a cliff the individual sheep can save himself only be separating from the flock. Perfect unity at such a time can only mean total destruction for all. The wise sheep to save his own hide disaffiliates.

Power lies in the union of things similar and the division of things dissimilar. Maybe what we need in religious circles today is not more union but some wise and courageous division. Everyone desires peace but it could be that revival will follow the sword.

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Stever concludes:

[u][b][color=FF0000]There will always be division between Conservative and Liberal Christians. There will always be division between Conservative Christianity and Liberal Christianity ![/color][/b][/u]

God bless,

Stever :-D