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Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi Killed in Bombing Raid

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sermonindex

I, for one, say "Praise God!"

Of course the Lord does not rejoice in the death of sinners, but this is a man deserving of what he received. This is a great day for America, and for our allies in the global war on terror.

Now, if we can just get Bin Laden!

There may be some who wonder how I can feel good about the death of another human... I recommend you watch the videos of Al-Zarqawi hacking the heads off of two Americans with a small knife. It will change your mind forever about this animal. If the videos do not convince you that demonic forces do exist, nothing will.

Krispy

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Tears_of_joy

This is a great day for America

:-o
Now, if we can just get Bin Laden!

:-o

'we' - who are you?

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sermonindex

Hey... truth be told, it's a great day for the world to be rid of one more murderer.

Krispy

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Truthspeaker


Jesus died for him as well.

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Tears_of_joy

Krispy,

Can you differentiate who are 'you' and who are 'they' against whom 'you' are fighting?

Kire

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sermonindex

Jesus died for him as well.

Jesus did indeed die for him, and all mankind. However, to ignore Scriptures clear teaching on justice and human governments responsibility to enforce it is to ignore God's Word.

As for who am I? What kind of question is that? Fact is, this man is a cold blooded murderer. When you sit on a man whose hands and feet are bound and mouth is gagged, and you proceed to slowly hack off his head as he screams... you deserve to be brought to justice.

If someone has an issue with this... then why dont we just get rid of all laws and all attempts to enforce them and just let everyone do anything they want. After all... Jesus loves everyone.

What warped and unscriptural thinking.

I suppose 60 years ago you would have done nothing about Hitler, and just let him kill whoever he pleased? Whats the difference?

Krispy

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Tears_of_joy

Krispy,
You said:

"Now, if we can just get Bin Laden!"

You divide here the things into two camps. My question is who are 'you' (plural) and 'they' against whom you are fighting?

Sorry for repeating my question... :-( maybe for you it is stupid question, but for me is not, it will clear up some things.

And can you give some Biblical New Testament support for your joy?

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sermonindex

We... being those of us who were attacked on 9/11, as well as those who have been attacked by terrorism around the world, be it London, Tel Aviv, Jordan, Iraq, etc. "They" being those who have no problem murdering innocent non-combatants such as women, children and unarmed non-military men just because they do not subscribe to the terrorists particular religion. And make no doubt about it... for those folks this is a religious war. To me, this is a war against murderers.

It's pretty black and white to me. Not sure why the line seems fuzzy.

As for New Testament support, are you saying that since Christ's death, burial and resurrection we have no institution of law and order, and even if we did we should not enforce it? Where does this line of "reasoning" come from?

I'm not rejoicing that this guy is in hell... I'm sure it sounds like I'm dancing on his grave. But if you think that then you are missing my point. I'm rejoicing because perhaps just maybe we are one step closer to ending this bloodshed. I'm optimistic about it.

By the way, I served over there as a US Marine a decade ago when it was called Desert Storm. I've been in combat, I saw the "Highway of Death" first hand. So I have a little better perspective on war and what needs to happen than the average arm chair quarterback who gets their (mis)information from CNN.

Krispy

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enid

It seems there are more than two sides to this discussion. Prov 11v31 says if the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, how much more the sinner and the ungodly? Romans tells us the wages of sin is death. I know it means eternal death, but we can ask how many have died not only in their sin but because of it? I really don't want to watch a video of someone's head being hacked off, but vengance belongs to God. For me, he has meted out justice for this sick attack. As for Bin Laden, if he gets captured,or killed, they will only find someone to take his place, just like they did with Arafat. It won't be the end of anything, they'll just move on. I don't really get any joy out of this man'd death. But, in my eyes, justice has been done to this worker of iniquity.

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sermonindex

enid... you got my point. Thank you.

As for this line of thought that we shouldnt go about hunting down murderers and bringing them to justice because Jesus is all about love and peace... suppose someone breaks into your house and begins to attack your children... what are you going to do? Stop him, or try to love him?

It kinda looks different when YOU are the one being violated.

Krispy

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sonofadam777

I recommend you watch the videos of Al-Zarqawi hacking the heads off of two Americans with a small knife.

I would strongly recommend NOT watching any of these video's.

I did and it took me over a year to get the images out of my mind and soul. They are VERY demonic and damaged my life for a long time. Think in things that are pure, lovely and nice!

Grace and peace,
Doug Renz

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Tears_of_joy

Krispy,
Here is what I believe: that there are two kingdoms, two totaly different kind of citizenships.
Two kinds of people, those are death spiritually and those are life in Christ.
And in these two kind of camps, different like darkness and the light, have soliders. And there is a war and there are weapons for that war.
Their war is carnal, against the flesh and blood.
Our war is spiritual [i]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.[/i] and that is: [i]loins girt about with truth, breastplate of righteousness, feet shod with the preparation of the [b]gospel of peace[/b], shield of faith, helmet of salvation, [b]sword of the Spirit,[/b] which is the word of God, all prayer and supplication in the Spirit[/i]

Their war can be won with carnal swords and bombs.
Our war can be won only by [i]Puting on the whole armour of God [/i]
Christ has called us to the second kind of war.
And the Scriputre is very clear, [i]3 For though we walk in the flesh, [b]we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal,[/b] but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds[/i]

We are soliders of Christ, [i]3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.[/i]

And He instructed us:[i]52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 [b]Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?[/b]
[/i]

The question is still there.

Christ's call to us is for different kind of warfare. We will surely lose the battle if we take the carnal weapons, and how can it be to go in their camp and fight with them their warfare, [i]14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? [b]and what communion hath light with darkness?[/b]
[/i]
and therefore we can not take joy for their carnal victories.

You said murderess, but check this about USA:
[i]How many? During the 1980s and 1990s total abortions stayed about 1,550,000 annually, slowly decreasing in the 1990s. Note that the Guttmacher Institute reported that 10% of known abortion providers did not report. Adding 10% to its 1,550,000 equals 1,700,000. The total reported slowly decreased in the 1990s. When the unreported abortions are added (income tax evasion, cover-up for privacy, etc.), a figure of 1,800,000 may be more realistic. Live births have hovered just under 4,000,000. Therefore: [b]Almost every third baby conceived in America is killed by abortion.[/b][/i]

If we value things by your logic, in usa are more murderess. But I not value them like that.

We should seek justice, long for it, but we will not received with carnal weapons and when we return evil to the evil. The Scripture teach us unambiguously 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [i]18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, [b]avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.[/b]
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.[/i]

Above is mentioned what kind of weapons are ours.

Yes it is difficult to be violated. But Jesus, look unto Jesus. [i]And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.
[/i]

[i][b]7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.[/b][/i]

And yet Jesus said: 53 [i]Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [/i] But no. Our warfare is with different kind of weapons. And we should take our Lord as example and we should know that [i]18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.[/i] and again [i]15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
[/i]

Your brother in Christ,
Kire

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Truthspeaker


KrispyKrittr wrote:

I suppose 60 years ago you would have done nothing about Hitler, and just let him kill whoever he pleased? Whats the difference?

That was way outta line and you know it..

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sermonindex

Well, as a person who has been very active politically in trying to change the laws in America concerning abortion, and as a person who puts a lot of charitable money toward crisis pregnancy ministries, and as the husband of a woman who is very active in ministering to women who are considering abortions... I agree.

But that doesnt take away the fact that we as a nation have the right to defend ourselves against a threat. Which is what we're doing. Also, when someone like Hitler, Saddam or someone like al-Z is openly murdering people... we can not sit back and do nothing. The truth is, this man was killing way more of his own people than he was Americans!

As for looking to Jesus is someone is attacking my children... I would not be a godly father if I stood back and allowed my children to be harmed and did nothing to prevent it.

David was a warrior. David was a sinner too. David was not perfect. God called David a man after His own heart. Moses was a warrior. Joshua was a warrior. Sampson was a warrior. Granted, that was a different dispensation, however all of these men were very dear to the heart of God, and instrumental in God's plan for the history of mankind. Jesus... son of David... a warrior.

Believe me, I'm all for peace... but peace with honor, not peace at all costs. If I am attacked for my faith I will not lift a hand in my own defense. If someone is breaking thru my door, or harms a loved one... it's a different story.

In fact, in a America if you are witnessing a violent crime and do nothing to prevent it you can be arrested for accessory to that crime.

Krispy

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sermonindex

That was way outta line and you know it..

How was that out of line? That was an honest question. Dont scold me for asking that... there is no difference between Hitler exterminating a race of people and terrorist wanting to exterminating not ONLY the same race of people, but anyone else who doesnt believe as they do.

Krispy

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boomatt

Amen Krisp,

I agree with you 100%. My brother, who is about to go back to Iraq for his second tour, said that the insurgents werent only using innocent people as shields, they were actually going into Sudanese refugee camps and using them as human shields, and unfortunately, my brother had to do what he had to do to exterminate this threat.

This was gods appointed time for Zarquawi.

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SeanHobson

As for looking to Jesus is someone is attacking my children... I would not be a godly father if I stood back and allowed my children to be harmed and did nothing to prevent it.

Well of course brother, that would be the sin of omission. He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, it is sin.

Brothers I do side with Krispy Kritter on the fact that this man was very wicked. I personally did see the video of him killing the American (before I was saved), and it was horrible. Yes, Christ did die for this man and Christ loves him and as well my wretched, sinful self. However, Let us not forget the first and foremost characteristic of God --Holiness.

Proverbs 29:1. Deuteronomy 32:39, Job 5:18, Ezekiel 16:50.

Brothers I am in no way running for president of the Baptist union trying to reinstate the stoning of sinners. I am not being Holier than thou and pointing the finger at men’s sins who are outward, mine being less visible. However, we cannot ignore the excessive abominations that some men manifest themselves to be. True we were all sinners and ungodly until Christ quickened us. But some men without Christ, instead of embracing false religion, embrace Satan and sin itself committing wickedness unthinkable. Yes, I believe God STILL kills people. I remember reading how our Lord sent an angel (it sure didn't do it of it's free will) to go and kill herod--after the cross. So it's entirely possible and feasible that , just as we think it's the "Christ-like" thing to do (and it is in most cases) to mourn over the death of the wicked, yet we need to remind ourselves and fellow men of the goodness and severity of God.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Sure, its easy to reprove a brother for giving way to his natural inclinations and rejoice to see divine justice poured out. But there's no way after you listen to CNN, or read in a newspaper how men sodomize two year olds and rape preteens off myspace that you don't feel a sense of relief, thankfulness, and joy that they were caught—even executed. If you do not, that's fine, I stand alone. Its something I'm ashamed of--but not ashamed of.

Addressing the post more specifically, I strongly advise you read a couple of unbiased books or watch a few documentaries before you swallow what our government and news channel spew out to the mass public brother Kritter. You can get one flick entitled “loose change” for cheap on eBay that goes into detail concerning 9/11. This is no rebuke in anyway, just a little advice that bin laden, 9/11, and anything else is not as one sided as our local news channel would like us to believe.

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MrBillPro

O Krispy you opened up the can of Liberal worms with this post hope you saw it coming and are prepared to deal with it, hey better you than me :-) this might be another one of those Marriage, Divorce, and ReMarriage.. Toward a Biblical Perspective threads. :-o

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sermonindex

Just down the road from here a female Clemson University student was found raped and strangled to death. Thanks to DNA it didnt take long for the authorities to figure out who was responsible. They arrested the man in Dandridge TN (only an hour or so from where I sit), and now he is confessing to numerous rapes and attemtped rapes in Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, etc. Even in the county I live in here in NC he had a sex offender record.

If we follow the logic of some people here we should just hand him a tract and invite him to church and let him go free and pray that he gets saved.

You say "thats not what I said!" ...but it is. If you follow the logic of some who have posted to this thread, we should not punish those who perpretrate crimes. I dont understand this thinking, and can only attribute it to how some believers have turned Jesus into some sort of hippie "peace and love" Jesus.

There is a reason we have governments, and there is a reason we have laws. We can not attain salvation by observing the Mosaic Law. But without law and order mankind would never have last as long as it has.

God is a God of order. And God is a God of justice. In fact, justice, even in a human court, is a reflection of God as Judge.

Krispy

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MrBillPro


KrispyKrittr wrote:
suppose someone breaks into your house and begins to attack your children... what are you going to do? Stop him, or try to love him?
Krispy

Democrat "Love Him" Republican "Stop Him" :-P

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sermonindex

O Krispy you opened up the can of Liberal worms with this post hope you saw it coming and are prepared to deal with it, hey better you than me this might be another one of those Marriage, Divorce, and ReMarriage.. Toward a Biblical Perspective threads.

Yea, well I'm packing the family up tomorrow and headed out of town for a couple weeks for a much needed vacation... Nothing like stirring the pot and then taking off! LOL

Krispy

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MrBillPro


KrispyKrittr wrote:
If we follow the logic of some people here we should just hand him a tract and invite him to church and let him go free and pray that he gets saved.
Krispy

:-)

I
IRONMAN

whoa
i don't have t.v. any more so i didn't know about this till i signed on...interesting viewpoints from everyone and krispy stirs the pot and dashes off :-P

at the end of the day it seems to me the die because we are sinners. the question is do we die in sin, or in Christ? We must also consider what things which happen to us individually or corperately are judgements from God lest we kick against the goards of His will rather than fall on our faces and repent. we know full well judgment begins in the House of the Lord.

let us all consider prayerfully the mercy the Lord shows us each day for our own transgressions and remember that were it not for God's grace and mercy, every one of us could be as the heathen, believing doctrines of demons and worshipping satan in one way or another. perhaps we may be more compelled to share the gospel to His glory?

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brentw

As Ray Comfort would say...IF somebody rapes your MOM, beats her, burns her body, what should the punishnment be? $5.00 fine, slap on the wrist, or FULL PUNISHMENT!!??

You answer this with an honest heart.

The terrorists are killing sons and daughters of moms and dads!!

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sermonindex

Stever posts:

It seems that there is such misunderstanding in this world from well meaning Christians. Nations have a right to defend themselves. America was attacked by militant Islam, who wants nothing more than to destroy us, and Western Civilization in it's entirety and replace it with Islam and Sharia law.

[b][color=0000FF]Romans Chapter 13 offers understanding about Nations, their right to defend themselves, and their right to go to war, and carry the Sword, and bear arms AND TO RESPOND AS A REVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH UPON THOSE THAT DO EVIL.[/color][/b]

1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3. FOR RULERS ARE NOT A TERROR TO GOOD WORKS, BUT TO THE EVIL. WILT THOU THEN NOT BE AFRAID OF THE POWER? DO THAT WHICH IS GOOD, AND THOU SHALT HAVE PRAISE OF THE SAME:
4.FOR HE (Government, [our Military]) IS THE MINISTER OF GOD TO THEE FOR GOOD. BUT IF THOU DO THAT WHICH IS EVIL, BE AFRAID; [b][color=0033FF]FOR HE BEARETH NOT THE SWORD IN VAIN: FOR HE IS THE MINISTER OF GOD, A REVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH UPON HIM THAT DOETH EVIL.[/color][/b]
5. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7. [b] [color=0033FF]Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.[/color][/b]

As Christians, we are not only "Christian Soldiers" that are fighting a "Spiritual Battle" as individuals while alive on this earth, we are also part of a Nation that has been attacked and have the God given right to destroy those that would attack us. Our Government has a God given duty to respond to this threat and destroy it, wherever it is on the Globe. God has given Governments the right to bear the sword. When we are in the Military, we are not acting as individuals, but as part of the Soverign Nation that we belong to, as part of the Government that represents us as a Nation.

God bless,

Stever :-D

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sermonindex

When we are in the Military, we are not acting as individuals, but as part of the Soverign Nation that we belong to, as part of the Government that represents us as a Nation.

Amen brother, thank you for bringing scripture to this conversation. I hadnt had time to look that passage up today, and you stepped in and did that for me.

When I was an active duty Marine I did not do the things I did as an individual. I represented my country and my government. Not everything our country has done has been right. Slavery, for instance. What finally put an end to slavery? War. (And my ancestors were Confederates!)

What ended Hitlers attempt to exterminate the Jews? War.

What ended the systamtic murder of thousands of people in Iraq by Saddam? War. Say what you want about WMD's... I believe we should have gone in based on the fact that Saddam was exterminating his own people. My only problem is that I dont understand why we dont do that with other nations as well... like the Sudan.

What put an end to the murderous rampage of Bonnie & Clyde 70 years ago? A hail of bullets from government agents.

God established government not to terrorize and control people, but to maintain order. I have several friends who are police officers AND Christians. Every single one of them have at one time or another drawn their guns on people when they were in threatening situations. There is nothing wrong with that.

I was in combat during Desert Storm. I personally have drawn a bead on other men while a Marine. While I was not a Christian at the time, I served with other Marines who were... and they were right beside me. So far as I know, they had no feelings of guilt. Pity on those on the other side of the conflict, but not guilt.

I think everyone here should feel free to hold whatever opinions they want to, but it is always interesting to me that those who have never served, or have never been under fire really do not understand the reason and purpose of the military.

Others will die in this conflict and fight against terrorism. The death of this man does not mean the end of the fighting. However it does mean that THIS man will not be able to terrorize, torture and kill other human beings. I think that is a good thing. It's a victory to people around the world who love peace and despise the murder of innocent blood.

Krispy

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IRONMAN

bro Krispy

By the way, I served over there as a US Marine a decade ago when it was called Desert Storm. I've been in combat, I saw the "Highway of Death" first hand. So I have a little better perspective on war and what needs to happen than the average arm chair quarterback who gets their (mis)information from CNN.
\\

what about fox news? :-P

I
IRONMAN

bro Krispy
i'm a bit confused here, i'm not disputing that every nation has provision in scripture to defend itself as Stever very well showed and backed with scripture. however i must ask a question:

you wrote this:

I, for one, say "Praise God!"
Of course the Lord does not rejoice in the death of sinners, but this is a man deserving of what he received. This is a great day for America, and for our allies in the global war on terror.

praising God for this man's death and touting it as a great day for the nation.

then you wrote this:

There may be some who wonder how I can feel good about the death of another human... I recommend you watch the videos of Al-Zarqawi hacking the heads off of two Americans with a small knife. It will change your mind forever about this animal. If the videos do not convince you that demonic forces do exist, nothing will

if God is not rejoicing over the death of this sinner ,should we? or perhaps you're not rejoicing and i'm misreading yuor post? just seeking clarity.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone. I can appreciate the sentiments expressed concerning our Goverment's rights and also see them as God given, as has been pointed out.

A couple things for balance...

Maybe our brother Kire is expressing the tension that exists for us as we walk in this world but must gaurd against becoming entangled in the affairs of it; we exercise influence upon it and the authority of Heaven in it, yes, and that may be through or under the systems of this world, nevertheless there seems to be always that tension that we must be mindfull of?

Secondly regarding our response to the destruction of the ungodly. I find in my own relationship to God a deficiency concerning my love for justice as compared to His. I suspect that this is true for all of us to varying degrees and is evinced in our reponse to the judgement of Hell, excepting perhaps those who are freshly and or newly convicted of the heinous nature of sin by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

So then, in seeing justice excecuted upon others, knowing somewhat how corrupt and worthy I am of justice and how much I have been spared from God's just demands, I can feel a sense of soberness and sadness when it is meted out in others. It seems for me there is a difficulty in the unjust loving justice, at least in the same way that our Holy God does? Maybe it is, that this condition improves along with sanctification?

I am reminded too of this famous qoute which says something like

there but for the grace of God go I

I know that some beloved brethren may not believe that they could ever have sunk down to the level of this man who was killed but I am becoming more and more convinced that this is so, not because of any virtue in our souls, but rather because of the providential care of them by our Father.

Peace be with you all in Christ Jesus.

I
IRONMAN

brethren
let it be known that i believe that if one violates the law, he/she is subject to the consequences thereof. as surely as we all have sinned, so shall we die because the wages of sin is death.

in reading this thread and seeking the Lord on some of what has been brought up, i feel led of the Lord to bring some things up for consideration. we know the Lord doesn't rejoice in the death of a sinner for He would that all would come to repentance as the word says, so we ourselves ought not to rejoice for if the Lord is grieved, what right have we to rejoice?

bro Krispy brought up the topic of a multiple rapist who was caught and admitted to more rapes and i'm sure he is being duly prosecuted. again in case someone missed it at the beginning of this post, i'm not for people not being punished as the law makes provision for their crimes. this goes for anyone and everyone from the pauper to the president for noone should be exempt from the law. so i'm not saying we should give him a tract and let him go free. let us also keep in mind that when crimes are committed, great or small there is another victim beside the one the crime is committed against. that victim brethren is God Himself. How it must hurt Him so to see us behave so wickedly! yet for all that grief, who among us can say that when they sought His forgiveness they were denied? sure we suffered the consequence for our sins but were forgiven.

what then? should we not witness to such people? should we not love them and reach out to them with the gospel as led of God? does the word not say to love our enemies? did God not love us first while we were yet sinners? let us consider the enemy here in this instance, the terrorists. as per the word of God, we are to love them too. WHAT?!?!How can we love such barbaric people? How can God love us despite our own sin and iniquity? He does and we are to express this same kind of love to all men. sure it's easy to love our other Christian brethren, that's cake. try loving bin-laden...if the heathen can love oneanother, it can't be that the love we as Christians show is the same as what the heathen show, NO WAY. like the word says, how different then would we be from the heathen? the love we are to express is that love which issues forth from the throne of God Himself. that love which loves all men despite their faults. that's a tall order...it requires that we empty ourselves of the love which we have naturally (which we primarily operate in)if we operate in this sort of Love, which indeed is the only true love because that which comes from our flesh (natural love) is not sufficient for the lofty purposes of a Holy God.

it seems to me brethren (if i am wrong please correct me) that this Love is the most powerful thing there is and nothing can withstand it. what does the word say? for God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. WOW! look at what that love has accomplished in your own life. look at some of the sins that love has feed you from? That same love is what cause Saul of Tarsus to give up his life as a persecutor if Christians (he may have killed a few even, we know he was at stephen's stoning. if i remember correctly because he did nothing he could be tried as an accessory to murder? yet stephen pleaded with God as he died that God forgive them for what they did...that's heavy)to become a champion for the Faith he desparately tried to extinguish. that same love is what has brought all of us here to Christ.

brethren if i am wrong and a fool forgive me and seek the Lord to loose me from this, but i am convinced that if we were to operate in the Love of God, nothing would be out of reach. even bin-laden himself would be brought to Christ if the pure love of God were to confront him. the cost however of operating in such love is nothing short of everything you are and everything that i am. to have the Love of God operating in you and i is to relinquish even that love that we express naturally. it means to yield completely to God. it means a trip to the cross, to hang on it and to die, no matter how long it takes. after which we are raise to Life, the Life of Christ and we can say like Paul, i am crucfied with Christ and i live, yet not i but Christ lives in me. to have the Life of Christ (which is the only true Life for it doesn't die) is to also have the Love of Christ by which He endured the death on the cross and all the humiliation associated with it for the glory of God by redeeming us.

Dare we put on the Love of Christ? Dare we underestimate the power in the Love of a Holy God? Dare we mess around and turn this love loose in our lives and on the world? Dare we Love as God loves? who is sufficient for such things!?!? the trouble is brethren, once we come to Christ God expects nothing less of us than to Love as He does. Anything less is not acceptable. the cost is everything, are we prepared to pay this cost? We have been warned and are without excuse before the Lord as far as what is expected of us by the Father. oh the gravity of the calling of God and it's dear cost!!! Oh my Lord what shall we do? brethen what shall we do?

I
IRONMAN

brethren

I know that some beloved brethren may not believe that they could ever have sunk down to the level of this man who was killed but I am becoming more and more convinced that this is so, not because of any virtue in our souls, but rather because of the providential care of them by our Father.

this is most sobering. we are how we are by the grace of God and His mercy. let us not ever for get this lest we become conceited and begin to see salvation as a right rather than a priviledge extended to us undeservedly so by a merciful God.

Lord bring us low and shatter our pride. AMEN.

L
letsgetbusy

Haven't read all the posts, and I could tell from the first few where it was going. Two Bible verses:

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

C
ChrisJD

Brother Ironman, this is a deep well! I pray we could all drink in more brother; I sure would like more.

that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Is it not this love which has enabled our fathers through the centuries to face the lions and the fires of this evil world? Of course they did this by faith but doesn't the scripture say that faith..

worketh by love

Wouldn't this love be a nourishiment of our souls?

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

and by it would we not be

more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I for one want more of it. Is this not true riches?

W
wyattearp

KrispyKrittr
Here in the west we'd of strung him up
Wyatt

S
sermonindex

Stever posts:

I wonder if today, in this politically correct, effete society that we presently have in America that if we had to fight the Revolutionary War all over again today------if today's Christian would have the fortitude and the courage to give his life for his country and his progeny.

We are in a world battle at this moment. Evil is evil, and it must be stamped out for our children and grandchildren.

Is there any sentiment on this Christian site that can match early America? The Pastors are the ones that preached the truth from their pulpits. The Pastors are the ones that spread the news about the British atrocities on the Americans living in the colonies (all of the Newspapers were owned by the Crown). The Pastors were the ones that led the cry to battle over and over again. The Church (that's us) followed them into battle. Where are we today?

Where are these men of principle, and integrity, and understanding, and guts with the ability to tell the difference between good and evil? Where are they at this time in history when we need them so badly?

Todays Church reminds me of the Church at Laodicea, which was neither hot nor cold, and Christ is going to spit us out of his mouth:

Rev 3:14-22
"14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

[b][color=CC3300]Laodicea[/color][/b]---This is where we are today, in regards to Church History, as well as world history and our timeline in regards to end-time events. We are neither cold nor hot, and willing to compromise, and willing to hide behind anything and everything to not have to identify evil as evil, and good as good.

I pray that God will help us, and I pray that God will help America.

God bless,

Stever :-D


I
IRONMAN

bro Chris
i knew from the moment the Lord rolled me by this thread He has something to show me. the thing is once the Lord shows you something either you conform (which is hard because it requires further death to self) or stay put (then you're liable before God and subject to whatever consequences come from disobedience) it is a frightful thing to mess around and let the Lord reveal something to you...

the gravity of the issue of the Love of God encompasses all. perhaps in reading the scriptures we've assumed the love we had in ourselves was sufficient or that this was the love which was spoken of? either way that love doesn't cut it, we need God's Love. oh to know the Love of God! what is the depth, breadth and length of it? dare we go as deep, as wide as far? is that beyond where we would go with God?

Is it not this love which has enabled our fathers through the centuries to face the lions and the fires of this evil world? Of course they did this by faith but doesn't the scripture say that faith..

that seems to me a very deep, wide and long love to me which passes all understanding. oh the love of God is a most powerful thing! if it can redeem men from their sins and reconcile them to God, surely there is nothing that can't be acomplished in this Love for we are indeed more than conquerers through He that Loved us.

Oh my Lord what shall be do?!?!

I
IRONMAN

bro Stever

I wonder if today, in this politically correct, effete society that we presently have in America that if we had to fight the Revolutionary War all over again today------if today's Christian would have the fortitude and the courage to give his life for his country and his progeny.

this is a good question. would we have what it takes but since it is hypothetical (we're not in that situation) i'm unsure it can be answered accurately. however do we have what it takes to lay down everything for the cause of the Glory of God? This is the true essence of our existence as Christians, to shine forth God's glory into a dark world. the cost of such is terrible, everything. we have to ask ourselves this question. how far would we go with God and for God, how much would we give up?

Todays Church reminds me of the Church at Laodicea, which was neither hot nor cold, and Christ is going to spit us out of his mouth:

AMEN!

Laodicea---This is where we are today, in regards to Church History, as well as world history and our timeline in regards to end-time events. We are neither cold nor hot, and willing to compromise, and willing to hide behind anything and everything to not have to identify evil as evil, and good as good.

indeed and we should also direct this need to identify good and evil, love one and hate the other inward as well as outward lest we see only the evil without and neglect the evil within. that would be a terrible folly just as the opposite would be.

S
sermonindex

bro Stever
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if today, in this politically correct, effete society that we presently have in America that if we had to fight the Revolutionary War all over again today------if today's Christian would have the fortitude and the courage to give his life for his country and his progeny.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IRONMAN REPLIED:

this is a good question. would we have what it takes but since it is hypothetical (we're not in that situation) i'm unsure it can be answered accurately. however do we have what it takes to lay down everything for the cause of the Glory of God? This is the true essence of our existence as Christians, to shine forth God's glory into a dark world. the cost of such is terrible, everything. we have to ask ourselves this question. how far would we go with God and for God, how much would we give up?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Stever responds to IRONMAN:

So, it would by my understanding from what you have said above that you do not see the current global war being fought by militant Islam, over much of the globe, as well as in your own country, as equal to the magnitude of Revolutionary War?

What is your insight and understanding of the gravity of what is taking place in regards to this mis-named "War on Terror"?

God bless,

Stever :-D


I
IRONMAN

bro Stever

So, it would by my understanding from what you have said above that you do not see the current global war being fought by militant Islam, over much of the globe, as well as in your own country, as equal to the magnitude of Revolutionary War?
What is your insight and understanding of the gravity of what is taking place in regards to this mis-named "War on Terror"?

i'm not sure there is a lot in common between this current war on terror and the revolutionary war. then again i'm a man born in this country and raised in ZImbabwe so i've always considered ZImbabwe home. so if mean my country as being Zimbabwe, i'm unsure militant islam has anything to gain from causing trouble there... yet now that the Lord has found me, my home is the Far Country and that is my primary concern and as far as i know militant islam has no sway there. i guess i don't see it that way but perhaps you could give some insight on why you may think the war on terror and the revolutionary war may be similar or of equal gravity?

my insight as far as the gravity of this war is this (if this can be called insight)to me it is evidently a serious issue, it has required the use of military force, death of soldiers and a bunch of money so that makes it a big deal. but for me an even [i]bigger[/i] deal (if there can be such a thing) is the Glory of God and the primacy of this very thing in the life of the Christian. Bro Stever, you asked if we would be willing to give lives for country and progeny right? from your response to my question could i then infer that you think to give up all for God is not a thing as important as country and progeny? if i am a fool then let me be a fool untill the Lord straightens me out. but is the cause of the Glory of God not a thing of even greater significance than the war on terror? This is how i feel and this is my concern. We're quick to lay it down for what is temporal (no doubt there is provision for this in God's big plan) but it seems less so for God. We're not willing to give up what we feel are rights if called upon by the Lord. yet Christ calls us to hate our lives, families and love Him first (if we don't we're unworthy of Him) and to lose our lives for His sake that we may find them. We're not willing to go to the cross and die (give up our lives) to be raised up by the Hand of GOd (finding our lives in Him). Brethren the Glory of God is our all in all and everything we do should spring forth from the desire to bring God glory. Anything less than that doesn't cut it.

the war on terror is a big deal, but as far as i'm concerned God knows all and sees all and the thing i'm to focus my whole attention on is His glory and everything else will spring forth from that. what does Christ tell us? seek ye first the kingdom of GOd and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.this says to me if we put God first, God will become all and we won't have to worry about anything else because ALL these things will be added unto us. another question which we need to address is what if what happened on 9/11 was judgement? the Lord has used peoples from outside israel to come through and demolish them as retribution for transgression. What if the Lord is dealing with us similarly for our own transgressions? what should we do? if we are guilty before the Lord and He judges us should we not repent? it seems few people are willing to entertain that thought, perhaps coz it means we have to closely examine ourselves and confess our sins and repent? bro Art Katz spoke on the 9/11 tragedy and said something to the effect of, the church which refuses to entertain the possibility of this being judgement is one which has lost it's savour. he has spoken of the holocaust as a judgment on the jewish peoples for their own idolatries and transgressions. what if he is right on both counts? ought we not give serious prayerful consideration to these issues?

it seems we are willing to sacrifice for country and children but i ask again, what about sacrificing for God? are we willing to go as far if not even further for God since the latter is by far a more important issue?

brethren these are difficult things to wrestle with. but let us seek the Lord in all dilligence lest we are heading down the wrong road and continue when we should back it up and change routes.

S
sermonindex

Dear Ironman: This is in response to your most recent post. What I see in the Church body today is a form of effite Christianity. One of the reasons I compared the war that we are presently involved in with militant Islam with the Revolutionary war, is that Christians were deeply involved in the war, not with the pen, but with the gun and the bayonette.

This is an Article by Scott Lively that addresses this issue-Masculine Christianity:

Masculine Christianity
by Scott Lively

Scripture teaches in Genesis that when God created man in His image, He created us male and
female. The implication is that God’s character spans the full spectrum of masculine and feminine qualities.

This attribute is also revealed in the person of Jesus, born as a male, but manifesting both masculinity and femininity in His actions. When exhibiting feminine qualities, Jesus was more nurturing and relationship-oriented than any woman. When exhibiting masculinity, Jesus was more forceful and results-oriented than
any man.

Unfortunately, the modern American church, along with the majority of its leaders, has rejected
masculinity in favor of an effeminate Christianity. Too many (though by no means all) of today’s pastors,deacons and elders shrink timidly from the challenge of the world, more interested in decorating the interior of their church buildings THAN IN DOING CULTURAL AND POLITICAL BATTLE WITH THE ENEMIES OF GOD.
Ravening lions rage unchecked throughout the land, while Church leaders hold potlucks and retreats.

Where is the masculine Jesus of the Bible in the life of today’s church? The Jesus who threw
down the tables of the moneychangers and drove them out of the temple with a whip? The Jesus who faced down and tamed the Gerasene demoniac? The Jesus who, to their faces, excoriated the cultural and political leaders of the day as a “brood of vipers,” and “whitewashed sepulchers full of dead men’s bones”? THIS MASCULINE JESUS HAS BEEN EJECTED FROM THE AMERICAN CHURCH. In His place is a FALSE and EMASCULATED CHRIST,
as submissive and fearful of controversy as the men who now lead His flock.

Brethren, this is not an attack on femininity. If anything, the church should be commended for its appreciation for and fulfillment of
the feminine aspects of its role. Such vital relationship-centered ministries as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and soothing the broken-hearted are prospering today. These ministries are very much a reflection of the feminine side of Christ’s complete personality. Instead, this is vigorous rebuke to both women and men within the church who reject the
masculine side of Christianity and have thus abandoned those outside our “church families” to fend for themselves against the forces of evil in the world. This is a rebuke to male church leaders, who channel their masculine competitiveness into sporting contests in church gymnasiums instead of contending for
influence over the community outside the church walls.

This is a rebuke to those pastors’ wives who keep their shepherd husbands safely close to the flock when they should be sometimes out hunting the bears and wolves.

Masculine Christianity fights to CHAMPION WHAT IS RIGHT AND TO DEFEAT EVIL. It is the APPLIED FORCE FOR GOOD AGAINST WHICH THE GATES OF HELL CANNOT PREVAIL. It is an EMBODIMENT OF THE SPIRIT OF CONQUEST IN WHICH THE GREAT COMMISSION WAS GIVEN. It is the unyielding determination to prevail against all odds and at any
cost to achieve a righteous goal -- even unto death on a cross. Masculine Christianity is the engine of revival: prophetic, expansionist, uncompromising.

In Biblical history, the greatest heroes of the faith exemplified masculine Christianity. Abraham did not sit idly by when his brother Lot was captured by the four kings. He armed his servants and went out to rescue him by force. Moses faced down Pharoah in a series of aggressive confrontations. David fearlessly
challenged and defeated Goliath and then cut off his head as a trophy of battle. God blessed these righteous men and backed their righteous deeds with His power.

Josiah is honored in scripture as one of the most righteous of all the kings for banishing the “perverted persons” from the land and destroying the foreign idols. Joshua and Caleb were the only men of their generation allowed to enter the promised land because, out of all the Israelite spies sent into Canaan,they alone called for immediate invasion of Canaan when the others backed away out of fear. John the
Baptist, who boldly and publicly rebuked Herod for his sexual immorality was praised by Jesus Himself.

Jesus stated that among men there was none greater than John.

Extra-Biblical history is also replete with examples of MASCULINE CHRISTIANITY. The period of the AMERICAN REVOLUTION is one in which deeply religious men took up the sword to overthrow an unrighteous oppressor. THE GREAT MISSIONARY AND REFORM MOVEMENTS ARE ADDITIONAL EXAMPLES OF MASCULINE CHRISTIANITY AT WORK.

The defining characteristic of each of these examples is the conquest of evil by God’s people -- mostly men. Masculinity is by no means the exclusive domain of men, but it naturally has greater appeal to men in the same way that feminine ministries of the church appeal more to women. Indeed, this explains why the majority of church members today are women or married couples in which the husband attends church at
the request of the wife. Where are the men of this generation? Though some are in church, they are significantly outnumbered by women, and they tend to be the least active members of the congregation. Is it any wonder in the light of the de-emphasis of masculinity by the church?

The church and this nation cry out for a revival of masculine Christianity, which is to say that our church leaders need to stop being such, for lack of a better word, sissies when it comes to social and political issues. They need to spend as much time confronting perpetrators as they do comforting victims. They need to do less fretting, and more fighting for righteousness. For every motherly, feminine ministry of the
church such as a Crisis Pregnancy Center or ex-gay support group, we need a battle-hardened, take-it-to-the-enemy masculine ministry like Operation Rescue (questions of civil disobedience aside). For every God-
hating radical in government, academia and media we need a bold, no-nonsense, truth-telling Christian counterpart: trained, equipped and endorsed by the local church.

These are not easy words to hear for those in authority in the church today, but I offer no apology for saying them, because this is the hard truth that all of us must confront. We are on the brink of utter defeat by our cultural adversaries and the church is only now beginning to wake up to the consequences of our past passivity. We are rapidly nearing a point in time when even a strong call to action, were it to be heard from every one of America’s pulpits, would be insufficient to resolve our nation’s moral crisis. There comes a point of no return in every declining culture.

I imagine us Christians as reclusive householders in an Old Testament walled city. A few of us have stepped out onto the street, confused and dazed, to find our city overrun by enemy soldiers with more coming over the walls. Buildings are burning, the watchmen are falling back under an incredible onslaught,and most of our warriors are still sleeping soundly. We have reached that split-second of decision in which
we must choose whether to rush forward into battle on the chance that we can defeat the invaders, or to surrender and look on in resignation as our children are marched off into slavery in a foreign land.

Copyright 2001, Scott Douglas Lively
This 1200 word editorial may be freely reproduced and distributed on the condition that our contact information is provided with it. Contact: Scott Lively, Abiding Truth Ministries, 6060 Sunrise Vista Drive,
Citrus Heights, CA 95610 (916) 676-1057, lively@abidingtruth, www.abidingtruth.com

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

In conclusion, this thread started off as a celebration for an enemy of the Cross, and an enemy of America being killed while involved in a war--a war that he was involved in that amounted to beheadings, murder, rape, car bombs, people bombs, kidnap and ransom, and mayhem. How did that celebration end up as a treatise on Christ's love.

What is missing here? What are we all about? Do we "Spiritualize" everything in order not to face evil, head to head like Abraham, David, and all the others? We are NOT Jesus Christ, we are men of flesh and blood that have a job to do. The job cannot be done while sitting on the couch, or sitting at our computers fantasizing that we are Jesus Christ, or that we are even like Him. He sees us that way because we have the down payment, the Holy Ghost that lives in our hearts, but we are still not like Him. We have Adams flesh and Adams blood in our veins. We will not be like Him until the rapture. In the meantime, let's all get to work!

God bless,

Stever :-D

C
ChrisJD

Hi Ironman,

perhaps in reading the scriptures we've assumed the love we had in ourselves was sufficient or that this was the love which was spoken of?

It sure is easy to rely upon our own love - it just can't support the weight of our walk before God in this evil world, you know?

My own experience has been that when the love I have for others and my fellow man is actually [b]tried[/b] by the fires of hostility, or dishonesty, or some wrong done, or when the cost begins to rise above the convience of [b]my own[/b] tolerance for discomfort or heaviness or temptation, or some pre-arranged tidy thought of generosity or compassion, [b]then[/b] the true weight and worth and depth of my love is [b]exposed[/b]. It doesn't go very deep.

Maybe if we could meditate upon a verse that speaks to the measure - that length and width and depth and height of our God's love, it would be this one..?


..consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself

Yet, isn't this available to us also?

And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it:

in the recent film The Gospel of John, the translation in the movie says it similar to this:

"I have revealed You unto them, and will continue to reveal You"

but for what puprose...

that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

It sounds like the Lord is saying that the [b]same[/b] love with which the Father loves the Son can be in us! Would this not mean, but not only, that we would be assured of God's love for us....?

before this the Lord says

for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ohh brother, what could we not bear if our hearts were so assured? How charitable would we not be if so vast a treasure, the eternal unfailing love of the Father, as unchanging as the Immutable God Himself, were laid up in our bossom and spilling out for want of room to contain it!? Would we not view the richest man as poor, the wisest as fool, the meanest as pleading the Father's compassion, the hurting as inviting His living waters to flow?

Brother, I am needy for sure.

T
Tears_of_joy

Oh this article made me sad...I had no plans to post more on this thread, but this article made me so..

DOING CULTURAL AND POLITICAL BATTLE WITH THE ENEMIES OF GOD.

Cultural and political battle!? :-o

[i]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
-Eph.6

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
-2 Cor. 10[/i]


It is the APPLIED FORCE FOR GOOD AGAINST WHICH THE GATES OF HELL CANNOT PREVAIL.

There is no such thing in the bible.

Masculine Christianity is the engine of revival: prophetic, expansionist, uncompromising.


In Biblical history, the greatest heroes of the faith exemplified masculine Christianity. Abraham did not sit idly by when his brother Lot was captured by the four kings. [b]He armed his servants and went out to rescue him by force.[/b] Moses faced down Pharoah in a series of [b]aggressive confrontations[/b]. David fearlessly challenged and defeated Goliath and then [b]cut off his head[/b] as a trophy of battle

I can not find Jesus to teach us to "get armed our servants and to went to rescue something by force", "cut of someone's head".

But rather:
[i]1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 [b]And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.[/b]
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, [b]but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:[/b]
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, [b]but in the power of God.[/b]
-2 Cor.2 chapter[/i]

Oh, thank God that when we are weak, the power of God can flow through us. And only then! Because we and our force have misirable failed. And we are doing just bad to His kingdom.

[i]26 For ye see your calling, brethren, [b]how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:[/b]
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and [b]God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;[/b]
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/i]

Praise God for that!

John the
Baptist, who boldly and publicly rebuked Herod for his sexual immorality was praised by Jesus Himself.

John is taken as a only New Testament example of masculinity. But let us see where does his power come from:
[i]20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a [b]just man and an holy[/b], and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.
-Mark 6[/i]

John was a holy man and that's why Herod feared him.


The period of the AMERICAN REVOLUTION is one in which deeply religious men took up the sword to overthrow an unrighteous oppressor.

The author has epxressed himself very well, maybe they were "deeply religious men". There are many religious men even today.

[i]52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: [b]for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
-Mat.26
[/i]
[/b]


The church and this nation cry out for a revival of masculine Christianity,

I would rather agree with Duncan Campbell when he said:

[b]A baptism of holiness, a demonstration of godly living is the crying need of our day.[/b]

God bless you.

L
Logic

Stever wrote:

What is missing here? What are we all about? Do we "Spiritualize" everything in order not to face evil, head to head like Abraham, David, and all the others? We are NOT Jesus Christ, we are men of flesh and blood that have a job to do. The job cannot be done while sitting on the couch, or sitting at our computers fantasizing that we are Jesus Christ, or that we are even like Him. He sees us that way because we have the down payment, the Holy Ghost that lives in our hearts, but we are still not like Him. We have Adams flesh and Adams blood in our veins. We will not be like Him until the rapture. In the meantime, let's all get to work!

But we are in Christ as He is in the Father.

[b]Ephesians 1:20, 2:1,5-6[/b] [color=990000]Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[b]2:1[/b] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[b]:5[/b] Even when we were dead in sins, [b]hath quickened us together with Christ,[/b] (by grace ye are saved;)
[b]:6[/b] [u]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus[/u]:[/color]
[b]Colosians 3:3[/b] [color=990000]For ye are dead, and [b]your life is hid with Christ in God.[/b][/color]

Our place is on our knees and in fellowship with ministry.

Let the politicians do their own work and and let us not becoming entangled in the affairs of this world and this life.

Too many (though by no means all) of today’s pastors,deacons and elders shrink timidly from the challenge of the world, more interested in decorating the interior of their church buildings THAN IN DOING CULTURAL AND POLITICAL BATTLE WITH THE ENEMIES OF GOD.
......Instead, this is vigorous rebuke to both women and men within the church who reject the
masculine side of Christianity and have thus abandoned those outside our “church families” to fend for themselves against the forces of evil in the world.

[b]2Corinth. 10:3-5[/b] [color=990000]For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[b]:4[/b] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
[b]:5[/b] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;[/color]

[b]Ephesians 6:12[/b] [color=990000]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.[/color]

I
IRONMAN

bro Stever
a most interesting article indeed. if i remember well, Jesus did upturn the tables of the moneychangers because they were defiling the temple. Jesus also didn't hit back when they beat Him before His crucifixion, and He told us to turn the other cheek...now i'm not saying that nations don't have a provision in scripture to defend themselves, but i am calling for us to more closely examine ourselves in light of the Love of God. were it not for His grace you could have been like Zarqawi, i could have been him, anyone could have.

you said this:

In conclusion, this thread started off as a celebration for an enemy of the Cross, and an enemy of America being killed while involved in a war--a war that he was involved in that amounted to beheadings, murder, rape, car bombs, people bombs, kidnap and ransom, and mayhem. How did that celebration end up as a treatise on Christ's love.

how can we celebrate the death of a sinner (who could have been any one of us save for God's grace) when God doesn't? i think it's dead wrong to celebrate such when the Lord doesn't, i mean how rebellious is that? of course the things this man did grieved God and many others, but let us not forget the many things which we do that grieve God. it's easy to point out sin out there but by far a much harder thing to look for, identify and deal with when sin is within. This is a BIG problem which we must all tackle. it's easy to love eachother as Christians but we're also called to love our enemies...man Jesus Christ left a tall order, but the fact that we are called to such is proof that it can be attained in Him, for the word says "we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us" right?

The reason for the Lord having me share all this about His Love is that His love is the most powerful thing there is. If we walk in that, what can stop it? the only thing is i feel that deep down we don't really believe in the power of His love else we would walk in it.

What is missing here? What are we all about? Do we "Spiritualize" everything in order not to face evil, head to head like Abraham, David, and all the others? We are NOT Jesus Christ, we are men of flesh and blood that have a job to do. The job cannot be done while sitting on the couch, or sitting at our computers fantasizing that we are Jesus Christ, or that we are even like Him. He sees us that way because we have the down payment, the Holy Ghost that lives in our hearts, but we are still not like Him. We have Adams flesh and Adams blood in our veins. We will not be like Him until the rapture. In the meantime, let's all get to work!

the point bro Stever is the best way and the only way in which victory can be secured is to confront all of this with the Love of God. that is how evil is defeated. look at what Christ did on the cross, He defeated the principalities and powers by letting them think they won in His death, then God pulled a fast one and raise Him to life and that was that. they were paraded before creation in defeat!or perhaps we don't believe that God's love can conquer all? you're right in that we are not jesus Christ, but to have the Holy Ghost living in us ought to make us more and more like Him daily in our conduct, thoughts and everything else. if not then what is the point of having the Holy Ghost? i'm not about sit on my butt and grive Him by not wrestling with Him so that i may grow in Holiness and Righteousness to the glory of God the Father and neither should anyone else. if i may ask, what does the "down payment" mean? :-?

bro this is the work, putting Christ on daily, dying to self daily.

C
crsschk

This attribute is also revealed in the person of Jesus, born as a male, but manifesting both masculinity and femininity in His actions. When exhibiting feminine qualities, Jesus was more nurturing and relationship-oriented than any woman. When exhibiting masculinity, Jesus was more forceful and results-oriented than

That's utterly absurd

R
roaringlamb

Is there any sentiment on this Christian site that can match early America? The Pastors are the ones that preached the truth from their pulpits. The Pastors are the ones that spread the news about the British atrocities on the Americans living in the colonies (all of the Newspapers were owned by the Crown). The Pastors were the ones that led the cry to battle over and over again. The Church (that's us) followed them into battle. Where are we today?

I will tread carefully here, but I suggest you double check history. Those who brought about the Revolutionary War wer not Christians, but Masons. They had an agenda for America to be the new Atlantis. The Christians were there, probably in William Penn's area (Pennsylvania), and had very little to do with the war.
How can anyone here rejoice over the death of someone? Especially knowing that he could be in hell? What if it had been you, or worse yet one of your loved ones?
Perhaps I am asking the wrong questions, but "love rejoiceth not in evil", now you may say exactly, but I say this also means the death of even this man, as Christ died once for all mankind.
When I saw all the photos, my heart sank, I did not rejoice at all, but prayed for the Iraqi people, and the American soldiers who are over there. May GOD touch our hearts with HIS compassion, even for non Americans.

C
crsschk

How can anyone here rejoice over the death of someone?

Would agree... to a point, a different point. Thinking back to David in the Psalms and ... my turn to tread a bit carefully. To be honest, this whole matter left me rather non-pulsed, it's just not something that is at the forefront of the mind. Would also admit to an earlier sentiment expressed of the belief that God still kills people. Annias and Sapphira for a more 'New' Testament example. Of course He still kills everyone by death. This verse seems to have gone greatly unnoticed, I hardly remember seeing it (in it's context) until fairly recently;

Eze 18:4 [i]Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.[/i]

The last part certainly, but the first part...

That a madman has been killed leaves no impression of happiness, nor rejoicing, neither does it bring forth any particular sentiment of sorrow, it all seems very peculiar to me to be emotionaly swayed one way or the other. The first thing that came to mind upon this news was;

Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

R
roaringlamb

Brother Mike it is always a pleasure to have your input. It seems to bring balance. Praise GOD that we have all these differing views yet can for the most part keep CHRIST at the front of it all!

C
Compton

What of the American soldiers who are...raping, and committing atrocities...

:-o ?

MC

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

I would like to recommend a series recently made available here at SI to you all that I think is relevant in some ways to the discussion here. The messages are by Josef Tson

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=516

The series is called "Communism, Islam, Sept 11, Soverenty Of God"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=11439

I would also recommend the other two messages and in particular "Truth, Love, and Self-Sacrifice - the Weapons of Christ and the Christian"

I pray it will be edifying to you all.

C
ChrisJD

Roaringlamb, how are you brother?

I would like to comment on something you said and hopefully can share some reasons I have come to think differently about this...


I will tread carefully here, but I suggest you double check history. Those who brought about the Revolutionary War wer not Christians, but Masons. They had an agenda for America to be the new Atlantis.

It is specifically the claim, that those who brought about the Revolution were Masons, that I want to address.

A few years ago, shortly after I was converted to Christ, I spent some time looking into the 'conspiracy theroies' on the internet and visted different sites that dealt with the topic, mostly those that attempted to prove the conspiracies were real. Eventually, even though I was convinced there was some credibility to the claims, I stopped examining the issue and realised that I was missing the work the Lord had for me to do.

What I have since realised, through the voices of vairous Christian ministires that defend the 'counter-claim' that America was founded as a 'Christian nation' is that alot is perhaps 'left-out' of the discussion on the other side. For instance, I was amazed to learn that according to David Barton of the Ministry called WallBuilders, [b]over twenty[/b] of the signers of the Declaration of Independence had degrees from seminary!

I was also surprised to learn of different facts that run counter to the oft-heard assertion that so many or even 'most' of the founders were Deists, such as reading the prayers or speeches of George Washington; as I understand it Deists do not pray to a personal deity asking for his intervention? What's more, while I did find reason to believe that President Washington was a Mason at some point in his life, what was not mentioned by the conspiracy theorists was that he supposedly also left the lodge.

That brings me to an important point, and one that I think you alluded too in prefacing your statement by [i]treading carefully[/i]. When viewing and commenting upon the lives of historical figures, we have to be cautious, rememmbering that isolated events or periods of time from a person's life do not nescessarily represent the whole content or character of that life. It would be easy for instance, for someone years from now, if they had access to my personal history, to portray Christopher Joel Dandrow as a reckless, godless heathen. They could do so, doing great harm to the testimony of my conversion to Christ, if such things were taken out of the whole context of my life up to this point.

For this reason, I think we should excercise great caution in repeating claims about men and women of history or even the present. Remember brothers, that false harmfull speech about others is [i]slander[/i]; something the father of lies is known for. And becuse it seems like this is part of the whole conspiracy discussion, I get the impression that it could be a deception, mixed with some truth, that works to errode confidence in our government, foundation, and values, especially in the minds of the youth.

I am not in anyway implying you or anyone else are participating in that. I just wanted to share these things for the sake of our awareness.

Blessed be the Lord God almighty.

R
roaringlamb

Thank you for your post brother. To me it seems that yes there are bits and pieces left out of both sides. I think that the one thing that is most important is that we follow CHRIST. It seems that I (cannot speak for others) can so easily trust in the Government, the President, the economy etc... anythig but GOD. Perhaps that is why there is the warning in Isaiah 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin Isa 30:2 That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt Isa 30:3 Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.
I do not fully understand the history of this country, but there are certainly alot of confounding facts. But it is always best to seek Love as love edifies, while knowledge puffs up.
Again, thank you brother, and forgive me if I have offended you in any way.

C
Compton

For this reason, I think we should excercise great caution in repeating claims about men and women of history or even the present. Remember brothers, that false harmfull speech about others is slander; something the father of lies is known for. And becuse it seems like this is part of the whole conspiracy discussion, I get the impression that it could be a deception, mixed with some truth, that works to errode confidence in our government, foundation, and values, especially in the minds of the youth.

This is an important observation Chris.

In recent years I've noticed that many of us Christians, exasperated by current events, have succumbed to simplistic and worldly conspiracy theories to try and make sense of it all. Since Christians are supposed to 'hate this world' it seems unimportant if these cyncical narritives are truthful...just that they appear antagonistic to the current order.

I realize it is part of the Christian's walk to not be bound to an Earthly 'kingdom', having a message that is peaceble and kind to all men regardless of thier nation or creed. Yet I see many Christians today that still seem bound to an Earthly kingdom...they have joined the ranks of those who recklessly talk down their own nation on the basis on secular and socially liberal books and blogs without first hand knowledge or experience of the facts or the people involved. In a time of war they do not remain peaceble to all men, but picking sides, they choose to tear down their own flag rather then simply lift up a higher banner.

(Edit: I'm not talking about exercising free specch criticism of our government. I'm referring to the low practice of treating conjecture and theory as factual knowledge.)

MC

I
IRONMAN

bro Chris

It sure is easy to rely upon our own love - it just can't support the weight of our walk before God in this evil world, you know?

oh indeed, and i'm finding that to be the case more and more. the lofty purposes of God can only be realized if we yield wholly to Him in all things and give up everything we are for Him. nothing we can bring to the table is sufficient in anywise.

It sounds like the Lord is saying that the same love with which the Father loves the Son can be in us! Would this not mean, but not only, that we would be assured of God's love for us....?

that's what i see too!

Ohh brother, what could we not bear if our hearts were so assured? How charitable would we not be if so vast a treasure, the eternal unfailing love of the Father, as unchanging as the Immutable God Himself, were laid up in our bossom and spilling out for want of room to contain it!? Would we not view the richest man as poor, the wisest as fool, the meanest as pleading the Father's compassion, the hurting as inviting His living waters to flow?

what would we not bear indeed bro? nothing. we could indeed to all things to the glory of God the Father. but the cost bro is dear bro. everything we are. we must be stripped bare of self that God only may live. Not very many are willing to make that sort of sacrifice. this is not a comfortable thing to do and clearly not for the faint of heart...God be our courage. AMEN.

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike (Balog)

Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

that should make us sit down and consider our own pittiful state before God lest we start thinking more of ourselves than we ought...

as far as God still meting out judgment by killing men, this is still in effect and none of us is exempt for we have all fallen short of the glory...

Let us consider our pittiful state before a most Holy God and repent or we too shall likewise perish...

God help us!AMEN.

S
sermonindex

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" -- Ezekiel 33:11.

M
MrBillPro


freecd wrote:
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" -- Ezekiel 33:11.

Yea that would be the scripture I would leave them with after they cut off my sons head and raped my Wife and Daughter. :-(
Like my old Pastor used to say the creator may be tough be he ain't blind.

T
Tears_of_joy

Brethrens, some good points have been brought up here.

I realize it is part of the Christian's walk to not be bound to an Earthly 'kingdom', having a message that is peaceble and kind to all men regardless of thier nation or creed. Yet I see many Christians today that still seem bound to an Earthly kingdom...

Yes, brother, this is my concern as well. I just read a quote from Ravenhill who says: [b]My generation is not so heavenly minded that it is no earthly use, it is so earthly minded that it is of no heavenly use!'[/b]
I want to add few verses here about our citizenship.

[i]1 [b]If[/b] ye then be risen with Christ,[b] seek those things which are above,[/b] where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 [b]Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.[/b]
-Colossians 3[/i]


[i]17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, [b]pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:[/b]
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
-1 Peter 1[/i]

[i]14 For they that say such things declare plainly that [b]they seek a country.[/b]
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 [b]But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God:[/b] for he hath prepared for them a city.[/i]

-Hebrews 11

Very deep verses for pondering.

M
MrBillPro


Tears_of_joy wrote:
Brethrens, some good points have been brought up here.
I just read a quote from Ravenhill who says: [b]My generation is not so heavenly minded that it is no earthly use, it is so earthly minded that it is of no heavenly use!'

Wonder if Ravenhill would have quoted the same thing to Jesus? Jesus was both heavenly minded and was of earthly good and also earthly minded and he was of heavenly good. :-)

T
Tears_of_joy

I would like to recommend a series recently made available here at SI to you all that I think is relevant in some ways to the discussion here. The messages are by Josef Tson

ChrisJD, hi brother.
Thank you for these messages, I will check them out.
I think Josef Tson is romanian pastor who has been through communism persecution?

Also I would like to bring attention to the messages that brother Wilkerson preaced after 9/11, I think these messages are must heard for every american and everyone else, especially the second one.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4218]The towers have fallen, but we missed the message[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3400]Sodom's Sister[/url]

I
IRONMAN

bro bill
Christ was not earthly minded in the sense Ravenhill is speaking of, in fact Christ came to do the will of His Father which is a purely Heavenly thing and in so doing was of use for God. Being heavenly minded is not being unconcerned with what goes on here on earth but it is to be concerned for the Glory of God and then out of this primary concern that everything else (whatever worldly concerns) is taken care of.

Christ's example was this, He dealt with the issues on earth in the context of only wanting to glorify God the Father by doing His will. This is the same thing we are called to as Christians.

S
sermonindex


Stever posts:

As Christians, we still have two natures—human nature, inherited from Adam, and God’s nature, that lives within us, in our hearts, where the Holy Spirit dwells.

Why is it so difficult to be glad that a man killer, a mass murder, a terrorist that not only killed his declared enemy, the U.S. Soldier, but also his own people. The man that was not a man of God, but a man like Cain, a man of Satan.

1 John 3:12 “12. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one (SATAN), and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

When I was in the service, the following was our understanding of the matter:

[b][color=FF0000]"We’ll Kill'em all, and let God sort'em out!"[/color][/b]

Our first reaction to war is usually one of repugnancy. It entails massive death and destruction from all parties and we can see how this type of "problem solving" is outside of God's perfect will for humanity. However, God's perfect will for humanity was for man to never sin. Since man has a sin nature, it may not be possible to live in a world where wars don't exist. Let's try and unravel what position the Bible takes in respect to Christianity and war.

Before going too far, we need to establish first that the Bible makes a distinction between individual moral responsibility and governmental responsibility. As free moral agents, Paul tells us "See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people." (1 Thess 5:15) Individual Christians should show Christ's love to those who personally wrong them. But this does not mean that if someone physically threatens us we should not fight back. Nor does it imply that we shouldn't use physical force to aid another person being threatened. In such situations it would be a greater sin to stand by and do nothing that to help a person who is in danger.

The same type of responsibility God requires of governments. They are specifically put in a position of power to protect their citizens. Paul shows us this in Romans 13: 3-5 where he writes,

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Note how the Scriptures say that the ruling body "does not bear the sword for nothing."

In other words, governments are to function in a guardian role, both dealing with crime inside its own borders (such as the police) and also any enemy who would attack its citizens from outside (such as our armed forces).

[b][color=0000FF]THIS BRINGS UP ANOTHER CONCEPT THAT IN RECENT YEARS PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN; THAT THERE EXISTS SUCH A THING AS A JUST WAR.[/color][/b]

The Romans passage above is very clear on this point. A government can function as an avenger of God to bring His judgment upon them. The Old Testament is replete with examples of this, but I'd like to look at a more modern situation.

In World War II Hitler was bent on conquest of Europe. He also sought to exterminate the Jewish race from the face of the planet. Those allied against Hitler and his plan were just in fighting him and his armies. To ignore him is morally the same as a police officer who does not try to stop a mugging attempt. There were good reasons, moral reasons to go to war in that instance and it would have been more immoral for the United States not to get involved.

[b][color=0000FF]The question that we must ask, then, is does our current situation fit the criteria for a just war? Is the United States justified in using its considerable military might against Militant Islam, bin Laden and other terrorists? Let's look at what we know already.[/color][/b]

1.The terrorists have attacked United States property and people before in the bombings of our two embassies in Africa and the attack on the USS Cole.

2.They have intentionally killed thousands of innocent civilians for no other purpose than to try and hurt us.

3.There will be a continuing threat of danger to U.S. citizens as it is highly likely the terrorists will try other acts in the future.

Taken together, I believe that it is the God-given responsibility of the United States government to protect all its citizens by declaring war on those who would seek us intentional harm, and FOLLOWING THROUGH WITH IT UNTIL THEY ARE DESTROYED.

I believe that Romans 13 commands the government to not shirk its role of protector and guardian of all those who fall within its care, just as a police officer should not shirk his role of protecting those who fall within his care. To ignore such a dangerous threat to our population would be a bigger sin.

I also would hope that those that have posted here would have the understanding to know that when Christ told the disciples not to use the sword to defend Him, He was fulfilling prophecy by going to the cross, to take care of the sin of the world. Why on earth would he want them to blow it BY KEEPING HIM FROM THE CROSS?

Is there any common sense on this issue, or is it the feminization or soft headedness of the men of God in these last days?

God bless,

Stever :-D


I
IRONMAN

bro Stever
i don't think that anyone has issue with governments (the u.s. gvt included of course) having provision and responsibility to defend the people (Romans 13 makes that plain)i for one have no issue with this. the thing is though God doesn't rejoice at the death of a sinner so i don't see why we should. perhaps i'm foolish, if so let the Lord enlighten me.

as for the war in iraq, i've heard people for and against, some claiming it's just others adamantly saying it is unjust. at the end of the day, God made it so for His own glory for in His Sovereignty nothing is outside His will.

as it pertains to the individual, you wrote:

(1 Thess 5:15) Individual Christians should show Christ's love to those who personally wrong them. But this does not mean that if someone physically threatens us we should not fight back. Nor does it imply that we shouldn't use physical force to aid another person being threatened. In such situations it would be a greater sin to stand by and do nothing that to help a person who is in danger.

when Christ was threatened, He did not resist but yielded and let sinful men do whatever they wished. i don't know of any apostle who was martryed who kicked and screamed on the way there, or any other Christian who was executed for that matter. if the threat is for the faith, what's the harm in getting beat up? doesn't the word say we should rejoice when such happens for God's sake because there is a great reward in heaven for enduring such? What's the harm in dying? Satan would have enslaved to him for fear or pain and/or death. but the word says to rejoice for persecution and of dying for the Faith, a crown is reserved in heaven. it's a win-win for us!

if someone is being attacked i agree that we should come to that person's aid.

Is there any common sense on this issue, or is it the feminization or soft headedness of the men of God in these last days?

again, i for one am not averse to the government doing what it must, the Lord clearly makes provision for this. However, the rejoicing over the death of any sinner is not right, like bro mike brought up what Christ said, let you repent, ye shall likewise perish. i guess my thing is to highlight that aspect, evil is indeed out there, but it is also within and we can't focus on it out there at the expense of it in us also or we will become like those people out there.

let us fall onour faces and REPENT, REPENT, REPENT before a Holy God or DIE. AMEN.

S
sermonindex

Stever responds to Ironman:

If you were a present day citizen, male or female, of Israel, you would be in the military until the age of 50. It is mandatory. You would also take your weapon home with you each evening.

The reason? To be prepared for war, to defend your Country, your family and yourself, as well as your way of life and right to your land.

Who is this declared enemy of Israel, that wants them driven into the sea and wiped off the earth? It is the same enemy that is fighting against us at this moment---Militant Islam that wants the death of all infidels. Who is an infidel? Jews and Christians first, and then all other Gentiles.

I am way past 50 and would only hope that my Brothers and Sisters in Christ would have the understanding of their need to go to war to defend this country and our way of life, if it ever became necessary and the draft was implemented. Thank God we have a voluntary Military! But some day, we might need many more to help out, and the draft would be necessary then.

What I have seen posted here makes me seriously doubt if todays Christian can be counted on to take up arms and defend His/Her Country. I think that they would all be willing to pray, and fast, but that's it. They would be willing to wait on the Lord for a miracle, but other than that, they would rather go up into the atmosphere in a mushroom cloud rather than take up the sword and take action.

Action that was taken by our forefathers and those before them. Action taken by them in Word War II that has made it possible for all of us in America to speak English, rather than German.

God bless,

Stever :-o

This is truly a sad day from where I sit.

I
IRONMAN

bro Stever
if there was a draft (and i am subject to the laws of the land as per scripture)and the Lord required me to sign up, i'd sign up, if He expressly said not to, i wouldn't.

What I have seen posted here makes me seriously doubt if todays Christian can be counted on to take up arms and defend His/Her Country. I think that they would all be willing to pray, and fast, but that's it. They would be willing to wait on the Lord for a miracle, but other than that, they would rather go up into the atmosphere in a mushroom cloud rather than take up the sword and take action.

you know, it seems to me (and i may be wrong, if i am, forgive me dear brother) that you don't have much faith in prayer and fasting as a way of achieving victory hence the leaning toward more worldly methods. has God not in past times honoured such? when Jericho was taken, didn't then men of Israel march around it singing to the disdain of it's defenders? i suppose we don't believe much in God's power to trust Him if He were to say "kneel and pray to me" in the face of attackers. is our God that small and weak that we don't trust Him so? if the Lord were to say "fast and pray and wait on a miracle" would we dare disobey what HE asked us in favour of operating our own way? or do you not believe God would grant a victory after being faithful to what He has asked? or does God not do miracles upon request any more?

the enemy has to weapons he uses against us, our sins and fear of death. we are Christians! what is there to fear from death? nothing! for in death the enemy is defeated! he can't hold us hostage via fear any more and the best part is we get to be in heaven! if it so happens to happen that our bodies are vapourized in the process it is of no consequence, we're headed to heaven.

America is a nice place to live, but i'm sure we'd all agree (or at least i hope so anyway) that heaven is nicer. if our Lord were to say to me "take up arms" i'd do it and be right there with you (if you can keep up, i'm half your age...but then again there is something to said about old age...treachery :-P )if He told me not to, you'd be on your own.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone. A few comment from different responses...

RoaringLamb, no offence at all brother, none at all :-D

it is always best to seek Love as love edifies, while knowledge puffs up.

Yeah and amen brother. I also thought the refrence to the passage from Isaiah was appropriate and also brings to mind

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the Lord our God.

Compton, I think you expressed alot of what I was thinking about the blogs for instance. Also..

they choose to tear down their own flag rather then simply lift up a higher banner.

I really appreciated the way you put this in particular. As I was looking up the refrence to the psalm above, I noticed this verse which seems to fit nicely

We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners:

Ironman,

nothing we can bring to the table is sufficient in anywise.

Do we really believe it though brother? Or maybe just in the really 'tough' things, so we think?

I am wondering though if the yeilding you mentioned is not directly connected to the revealtion of God's love for us, as in they both work by and through each other?

Tears_of_joy, I believe you are correct about him being from Romania(almost certain) and the communists as he discusses this in the messages. And thank you for the recommendations also, will definitely check these out!

I
IRONMAN

bro Chris

Do we really believe it though brother? Or maybe just in the really 'tough' things, so we think?

well maybe just in the tough things/times but we must come to realize that this insufficiency applies across the board.

I am wondering though if the yeilding you mentioned is not directly connected to the revealtion of God's love for us, as in they both work by and through each other?

and i think this is key too, unless these things are revealed to us from the very throne of God (by whatever means), there is no way of coming to such realizations. however once the Lord has put the revelation out there, we have a responsibility (i think anyway) to go before God, have Him reveal to us if the revelation is of Him, if so then we are to govern ourselves accordingly. if not we are liable before Him without excuse.

just got through listening to Joesph Tson speak and it was most powerful. there is much he speaks of which is possible only after one dies to self. there is no way one can endure the sufferings he has unless one has no regard/consciousness of self and if has only regard/consciousness of God such that persecution and death for the gospel are not things to be fearful of, but to be embraced.

may the Lord do with us as He will. AMEN.

C
crsschk

Hi Stever,

I don't think the perception here is as much as you have stated. It seems at best that those who are not particularly rejoicing over this and are addressing that aspect need not be cast in this light.

But, I do hear you and agree there is much confusion over the ideas of war, defending and so forth. I have never understood pacifism as derived from what the Lord either taught or expressed throughout scripture. It would be pure presumption having never served in the military to make anything other than observations based on that. I think you are right in that there is much more emotion tied to all this than just to look at things as they in fact are.

Is there any common sense on this issue, or is it the feminization or soft headedness of the men of God in these last days?

I think there is and must mention again that I found the earlier article posted about this idea of 'feministic' qualities of the Lord absurdly out of place, it had the ring of a humanistic philosopher attempting to explain aspects of Jesus from his fallible mind. Not to belabor the point, but it seems statements like that contribute more to the misunderstanding than help to clarify them. It just furthers the soft headedness in my opinion.

Moving on.
This is something that has been a musing for quite some time. It has come up here any number of times in the past in various forms and understandings. I have a great admiration for the Quakers as saints and others who feel it best to withdraw from forms of violence as war, etc. But I do not think it is as easy as just to camp on "turning the other check" as the be all end all, nor do I believe it was ever intended to be what it has become characterized as.

What it amounts to is a forcing into "camp's" of one mindset or the other, for or against and I know I have harped on this before but is there not a [i]neither[/i] in this? That is what I meant by non-pulsed as well as intimating Jesus' reaction to these matters of war, soldiers, commanders and so on. To look through all His dealings in these matters, it is indeed strange that anyone could misconstrue His words or His intentions, generally speaking the ideas that have been fostered by men as belonging to Him just are not to be found.

What I do mean by 'neither' is only that there is an understanding of the 'sides' and that I do not feel any compulsion to lend particular support to any extreme, especially when it is of a political nature. We have had some rather heated and incredibly ugly discussions here on these matters in the past, where the emotions and\\or politics leave it difficult to just take an honest look at it from the scriptures.

Stever, I will match you for longevity, make that loquacity here. Had pulled a lot of the reply to follow together earlier and waited... I am not really fond of expressing things that I don't really know about by experience, it is just what I have looked at and mused on for awhile. I do have the utmost respect and understanding of not only our American military but any military that is set to rule and defend it's people justly. As Sparks stated by way of Paul; "[i]There would be no need for law if there was no lawlessness.[/i]" How that cut's across everything. To the headline here that started this original post under discussion, I would only add that I am glad, but not rejoicing.


S
sermonindex

Stever responds to IRONMAN:

You misunderstand the intent of this thread. I am very much a man of prayer and fasting, and waiting on the Lord. I am a spirit filled, baptised in the Holy Ghost Christian believer that witnesses to the lost, lays hands on the sick, and loves the Lord.

My position on this thread has been to provide balance.

We all live in America, and you have finally taken a position on your response to the my concern.

Specifically IRONMAN posted:

"bro Stever
if there was a draft (and i am subject to the laws of the land as per scripture)and the Lord required me to sign up, i'd sign up, if He expressly said not to, i wouldn't. "

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What troubles me about your response is that IRONMAN HAS posted before on another thread that CHRIST HAS TOLD HIM that he will not be part of the rapture, but stay here and go through the Tribulation in order to witness to the lost.

We have to test the "Spirit" that talks to us. Like I have said many times. Why is that? Because Satan still has access to our minds, as well as our flesh (inflated ego,pride, cowardice), as well as Satan's demons, as well as the Holy Spirit that lives within our heart.

1 John 4

1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
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Stever continues:

In regards to your (IRONMAN) going through the Tribulation, or any other believer, I offer the following from God's word:

1 Cor 15:51-53
" 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Please note, it did not say SOME would be changed, but ALL.

2 Thes 2:1 gives us more insight:
2 Thessalonians 2

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

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Please note, Paul is talking to the believers at Thessalonica and he mentions OUR gathering together unto him---not some, not all BUT IRONMAN, but the entire Church.
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So, how do we test the Spirit that talks to us? We check it out against God's Word.

That is what I find lacking in many, many Christians today--Spiritual Discernment.

Romans offers us understanding in that it tells us that God is the one that sets up Governments, and that he is right in the middle of what takes place on this earth.

Right now, we are involved in a righteous war.

How do I know that? Because we have been attacked by Militant Islam that wants to kill all of the Jews and Christians (Jews 1st, then the Christians, unless we convert to Islam), and then they want to kill all of the Gentiles in the rest of the world (unless they convert to Islam). God does not have to tell anyone if they should be part of this war or not. The common sense that he gave us tells us that!

We also live in a Nation that elects politicans to represent them- we live in a Republic. We also live in a nation with a military that was created to defend us. If you or I get "drafted" into the service, we don't have to have a direct revelation from God almighty to go, or not to go. We have a duty as a citizen of this country to serve. We do not have a "standing army" like China, or Russia, or other countries. We have a military made up of American citizens. Presently it is a totally voluntary force. However, during major wars (Civil War, World War 1, World War II, and Vietnam) the Government imposes a "draft". The difference between us and other nations is that we are a military made up of America Citizens, that after the conflict go back to their occupations and their lives.

It is an honor to live in this country, and an honor to serve.


Romans 13

1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 11. And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lust


This is how we test the "Spirit" that talks to us, and it has already spoken loud and clear!
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God bless,

Stever :-)

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IRONMAN wrote:
bro Stever
if there was a draft (and i am subject to the laws of the land as per scripture)and the Lord required me to sign up, i'd sign up, if He expressly said not to, i wouldn't.

What I have seen posted here makes me seriously doubt if todays Christian can be counted on to take up arms and defend His/Her Country. I think that they would all be willing to pray, and fast, but that's it. They would be willing to wait on the Lord for a miracle, but other than that, they would rather go up into the atmosphere in a mushroom cloud rather than take up the sword and take action.

you know, it seems to me (and i may be wrong, if i am, forgive me dear brother) that you don't have much faith in prayer and fasting as a way of achieving victory hence the leaning toward more worldly methods. has God not in past times honoured such? when Jericho was taken, didn't then men of Israel march around it singing to the disdain of it's defenders? i suppose we don't believe much in God's power to trust Him if He were to say "kneel and pray to me" in the face of attackers. is our God that small and weak that we don't trust Him so? if the Lord were to say "fast and pray and wait on a miracle" would we dare disobey what HE asked us in favour of operating our own way? or do you not believe God would grant a victory after being faithful to what He has asked? or does God not do miracles upon request any more?

the enemy has to weapons he uses against us, our sins and fear of death. we are Christians! what is there to fear from death? nothing! for in death the enemy is defeated! he can't hold us hostage via fear any more and the best part is we get to be in heaven! if it so happens to happen that our bodies are vapourized in the process it is of no consequence, we're headed to heaven.

America is a nice place to live, but i'm sure we'd all agree (or at least i hope so anyway) that heaven is nicer. if our Lord were to say to me "take up arms" i'd do it and be right there with you (if you can keep up, i'm half your age...but then again there is something to said about old age...treachery :-P )if He told me not to, you'd be on your own.

C
crsschk

This realm is something that has been something of a peculiarity in all the misunderstanding and confusion as it applies to the Christian. It seems that often it has been overblown to mean something entirely different than what was intended, both as fact, that is, as things are and that which is either to be defended or not defended as the saint is concerned.

[b]Pacify
PACIFY[/b]
, v.t. [L., peace, and to make.]

1. To appease, as wrath or other violent passion or appetite; to calm; to still; to quiet; to allay agitation or excitement; as, to pacify a man when angry, or to pacify his wrath or rage; the word being applied both to the person and to the passion. So we say, to pacify hunger, to pacify importunate demands.

2. To restore peace to; to tranquilize; as, to pacify countries in contention.

[b]Pacifism

pac·i·fism[/b] (păs'ə-fĭz'əm)
n.

1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.

2.

A. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.

B. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Before launching out here, the purpose is to just get a scriptural and honest perspective. What has always struck me sideways is this idea that the Lord Jesus was of such a mind as to oppose all violence, war, soldiers, defending ones self, on and on until He has become in our parlance a 'pacifist'. This could not be further from the truth. To be sure of being clear of what is [i]not[/i] being said, the starting point here is not one of being either crowed into or 'supporting' anything as the want is often to do, in other words, "Are you saying then that you believe...?"
No, that this may be forgotten at the onset along with the politics of our day for whatever reasons the hubris is. Rather than to add commentary alongside commentary am hopeful that some examples might draw out the matter on their own, will save my thoughts towards the end.

[b]Lam 3:30 - He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him[/b],.... Either to God that afflicts him, and patiently bears it; see Isa_9:13; or rather to men. To be smitten on the cheek is always reckoned a very great affront; to turn the cheek to an injurious man is to give him an opportunity and leave to smite, and signifies the taking of it patiently, and agrees both with our Lord's advice and example, Mat_5:39;

[b]Mat 5:39 - But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil[/b],.... This is not to be understood of any sort of evil, not of the evil of sin, of bad actions, and false doctrines, which are to be opposed; nor of the evil one, Satan, who is to be resisted; but of an evil man, an injurious one, who has done us an injury. We must not render evil for evil, or repay him in the same way; see Jam_5:6. Not but that a man may lawfully defend himself, and endeavour to secure himself from injuries; and may appear to the civil magistrate for redress of grievances; but he is not to make use of private revenge. As if a man should pluck out one of his eyes, he must not in revenge pluck out one of his; or should he strike out one of his teeth, he must not use him in the same manner; but patiently bear the affront, or seek for satisfaction in another way.

[b]But whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also[/b]: which is to be understood comparatively, rather than seek revenge, and is directly contrary to the Jewish canons, which require, in such a case, a pecuniary fine (g).

"He that strikes his neighbour (which Maimonides explains, he that strikes his neighbour with his hand shut, about the neck) he shall give him a "sela", or "shekel": R. Judah says, in the name of R. Jose the Galilean, one pound: if he smite him (i.e. as Maimonides says, if he smite him with his double fist upon the face; or, as Bartenora, with the palm of his hand, לחיי, "on the cheek", which is a greater reproach) he shall give him two hundred "zuzim"; and if he does it with the back of his hand, four hundred "zuzim".''

R. Isaac Sangari (h) manifestly refers to this passage of Christ's, when he says to the king he is conversing with,

"I perceive that thou up braidest us with poverty and want; but in them the great men of other nations glory: for they do not glory but in him, who said, "Whosoever smiteth thee thy right cheek, turn to him the left; and whosoever taketh away thy coat, give him thy cloak".''

(g) Misn. Bava Kama, c. 8. sect. 6. Vid. Maimon. & Bartenora in ib. (h) Sepher Cosri, Orat. 1. Sign. 113. fol. 56. 1.

John Gill

[b]Mat 5:39 -
Resist not evil[/b]
- Or, the evil person. So, I am fully persuaded, τω πονηρω ought to be translated. Our Lord’s meaning is, “Do not repel one outrage by another.” He that does so makes himself precisely what the other is, a wicked person.

[b]Turn to him the other also[/b] - That is, rather than avenge thyself, be ready to suffer patiently a repetition of the same injury. But these exhortations belong to those principally who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake. Let such leave the judgment of their cause to Him for whose sake they suffer. The Jews always thought that every outrage should be resented; and thus the spirit of hatred and strife was fostered.

Adam Clarke


[b]Mat 5:38-41 -
An eye for an eye[/b]
... - This command is found in Exo_21:24; Lev_24:20, and Deu_19:21. In these places it was given as a rule to regulate the decisions of judges. They were to take eye for eye, and tooth for tooth, and to inflict burning for burning. As a judicial rule it is not unjust. Christ finds no fault with the rule as applied to magistrates, and does not take upon himself to repeal it. But instead of confining it to magistrates, the Jews had extended it to private conduct, and made it the rule by which to take revenge. They considered themselves justified by this rule to inflict the same injury on others that they had received. Our Saviour remonstrates against this. He declares that the law had no reference to private revenge, that it was given only to regulate the magistrate, and that their private conduct was to be governed by different principles.

The general principle which he laid down was, that we are not to resist evil; that is, as it is in the Greek, nor to set ourselves against an evil person who is injuring us. But even this general direction is not to be pressed too strictly. Christ did not intend to teach that we are to see our families murdered, or be murdered ourselves; rather than to make resistance. The law of nature, and all laws, human and divine, justify self-defense when life is in danger. It cannot surely be the intention to teach that a father should sit by coolly and see his family butchered by savages, and not be allowed to defend them. Neither natural nor revealed religion ever did, or ever can, inculcate this doctrine. Our Saviour immediately explains what he means by it. Had he intended to refer it to a case where life is in danger, he would most surely have mentioned it. Such a case was far more worthy of statement than those which he did mention.

A doctrine so unusual, so unlike all that the world had believed. and that the best people had acted on, deserved to be formally stated. Instead of doing this, however, he confines himself to smaller matters, to things of comparatively trivial interest, and says that in these we had better take wrong than to enter into strife and lawsuits. The first case is where we are smitten on the cheek. Rather than contend and fight, we should take it patiently, and turn the other cheek. This does not, however, prevent our remonstrating firmly yet mildly on the injustice of the thing, and insisting that justice should be done us, as is evident from the example of the Saviour himself. See Joh_18:23. {[i]Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?[/i]} The second evil mentioned is where a man is litigious and determined to take all the advantage the law can give him, following us with vexatious and expensive lawsuits. Our Saviour directs us, rather than to imitate him rather than to contend with a revengeful spirit in courts of justice to take a trifling injury, and yield to him. This is merely a question about property, and not about conscience and life.

[b]Coat[/b] - The Jews wore two principal garments, an interior and an exterior. The interior, here called the “coat,” or the tunic, was made commonly of linen, and encircled the whole body, extending down to the knees. Sometimes beneath this garment, as in the case of the priests, there was another garment corresponding to pantaloons. The coat, or tunic, was extended to the neck. and had long or short sleeves. Over this was commonly worn an upper garment, here called “cloak,” or mantle. It was made commonly nearly square, of different sizes, 5 or 6 cubits long and as many broad, and was wrapped around the body, and was thrown off when labor was performed. If, said Christ, an adversary wished to obtain, at law, one of these garments, rather than contend with him let him have the other also. A reference to various articles of apparel occurs frequently in the New Testament, and it is desirable to have a correct view of the ancient mode of dress. in order to a proper understanding of the Bible. The Asiatic modes of dress are nearly the same from age to age, and hence it is not difficult to illustrate the passages where such a reference occurs. The ordinary dress consisted of the inner garment, the outer garment, the girdle (belt), and the sandals. In regard to the sandals, see the notes at Mat_3:11.

In the girdle (belt) was the place of the pouch Mat_10:9, and to it the sword and dirk were commonly attached. Compare 2Sa_20:8. In modern times the pistols are also fastened to the belt. It is the usual place for the handkerchief, smoking materials, inkhorn, and, in general, the implements of one’s profession. The belt served to confine the loose-flowing robe or outer garment to the body. It held the garment when it was tucked up, as it was usually in walking or in labor. Hence, “to gird up the loins” became a significant figurative expression, denoting readiness for service, activity, labor, and watchfulness; and “to loosen the loins” denoted the giving way to repose and indolence, 2Ki_4:29; Job_38:3; Isa_5:27; Luk_12:35; Joh_21:7.

[b]Whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile[/b] - The word translated “shall compel” is of Persian origin. Post-offices were then unknown. In order that the royal commands might be delivered with safety and despatch in different parts of the empire, Cyrus stationed horsemen at proper intervals on all the great public highways. One of those delivered the message to another, and intelligence was thus rapidly and safely communicated. These heralds were permitted to compel any person, or to press any horse, boat, ship, or other vehicle that they might need for the quick transmission of the king’s commandments. It was to this custom that our Saviour refers. Rather, says he, than resist a public authority requiring your attendance and aid for a certain distance, go peaceably twice the distance.
[b]A mile[/b] - A Roman mile was 1,000 paces.
[b]Twain[/b] - Two.

Albert Barnes

[b]Mat 5:44 - But I say unto you, love your enemies,....[/b] That is, as the Apostle Paul may be thought to interpret the words of Christ, Rom_12:20. "If thine enemy hunger, feed him: if he thirst, give him drink": unless our Lord should be supposed rather to regard the internal affection of the mind; since outward expressions of love, by words and works, are urged in the following exhortations: the actions of a man may be hated, and just indignation be expressed against them, and yet his person be loved, tenderness be used to him, and pity shown him: all men, even enemies, are to be loved with a natural love, as men; though they cannot be loved with a spiritual affection, as brethren in Christ: and in natural affection there are degrees, according to the relation and circumstances that persons stand in to one another.

[b]Bless them that curse you[/b]: when wicked men curse you, as Shimei cursed David, do not "render evil for evil, or railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing"; give good words, use kind language, mild and soft expressions; such as may either win upon them, or put them to shame and silence: "bless, and curse not"; the latter belongs to them, the former to you; "let them curse, but bless thou": curses better fit their mouths, and blessings thine. Blessing here, does not signify praising them, for that would be sinful, which is sometimes the sense of the word; nor wishing, or praying for a blessing on them, which is right and good; but this is mentioned afterwards, as distinct from blessing; wherefore, it is better to understand it of a sweet and engaging address unto, and behaviour and conduct towards such, whose mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.

[b]Do good to them that hate you[/b]; such as hate you in their hearts, and discover their hatred by their actions; do not make returns in the same way, but on the contrary, do them all the good you can; perform all the kind offices that lie in your power; let them partake of your bounty and liberality; if poor, feed, clothe, and supply them, as you are able, with the necessaries of life; and give them wholesome advice for the good of their souls: by "so doing", you will "heap coals of fire on their heads"; of enemies, make them friends; engage their affections to you, and you may be happy instruments in doing them good, both in soul and body:

[b]and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you.[/b] What Christ here commands and advises to, he himself did; for as he hung upon the cross, he prayed for his crucifiers, who were then using him in the most despiteful, as well as cruel manner; saying, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do": and in this he has left us an example, that we should tread in his steps; and here in he was quickly followed by his holy martyr Stephen; who, whilst he was being stoned, prayed for his persecutors and murderers, saying, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". This breathes out the true spirit of Christianity, and is peculiar to it. The whole of this is directly opposite to the tenets of the Jews, particularly the Scribes and Pharisees; who allowed of revenge, and keeping anger against any person that had done them an injury, as has been observed: and which were also the sentiments of the Karaites, or Scripturarians, another sect among them who kept to the letter of the Scriptures, and rejected the traditions of the elders, which the Pharisees held: but in this they agreed with them,

"that it was right to do good to their friends, and to forgive them that asked pardon of them; but to such men who rendered evil, and did not return to do well, that they might receive forgiveness, אינו אסור לנקום ולנטור מהם, "it is not forbidden to revenge, and to keep anger against them" (s).''

It is indeed said (t) of their former holy men, חסידים, "Hasideans", which some have thought to be the same with the "Essenes", and a sort of Christians; however, were a better sort of Jews; that these

"heard their reproach, but did not return it; and not only so, but they pardoned him that reproached them, and forgave him.''

And it is reported of these men, that they used to pray to God to pardon and forgive all that disturbed them. But the Pharisees, whom Christ had to do with, and against whom he inveighs, were men of another complexion.

(s) R. Eliahu in Adderet, c. 3. apud Trigland. de Sect. Karaeorum, c. 10. p. 166, 167. (t) Maimon. Hilch. Talmud Tora. c. 7. sect. 13.

John Gill

Luk 22:36 [i]Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.[/i] Luk 22:38 [i] And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.[/i]

[b]Luk 22:36 -
But now[/b]
- The Saviour says the times are changed. “Before,” he sent them out only for a little time. They were in their own country. Their journeys would be short, and there was no need that they should make preparation for a long absence, or for encountering great dangers. But “now” they were to go into the wide world, among strangers, trials, dangers, and wants. And as the time was near; as he was about to die; as these dangers pressed on, it was proper that they should make provision for what was before them.

[b]A purse[/b] - See the notes at Mat_10:9. He intimates that they should “now” take money, as it would be necessary to provide for their wants in traveling.
Scrip - See the notes at Mat_10:10.

[b]And he that hath no sword[/b] - There has been much difficulty in understanding why Jesus directed his disciples to arm themselves, as if it was his purpose to make a defense. It is certain that the spirit of his religion is against the use of the sword, and that it was not his purpose to defend himself against Judas. But it should be remembered that these directions about the purse, the scrip, and the sword were not made with reference to his “being taken” in the garden, but with reference “to their future life.” The time of the trial in Gethsemane was just at hand; nor was there “time” then, if no other reason existed, to go and make the purchase. It altogether refers to their future life. They were going into the midst of dangers. The country was infested with robbers and wild beasts. It was customary to go armed. He tells them of those dangers - of the necessity of being prepared in the usual way to meet them. This, then, is not to be considered as a specific, positive “command” to procure a sword, but an intimation that great dangers were before them; that their manner of life would be changed, and that they would need the provisions “appropriate to that kind of life.” The “common” preparation for that manner of life consisted in money, provisions, and arms; and he foretells them of that manner of life by giving them directions commonly understood to be appropriate to it. It amounts, then, to a “prediction” that they would soon leave the places which they had been accustomed to, and go into scenes of poverty, want, and danger, where they would feel the necessity of money, provisions, and the means of defense. All, therefore, that the passage justifies is:

1.\tThat it is proper for people to provide beforehand for their wants, and for ministers and missionaries as well as any others.

2.\tThat self-defense is lawful.
Men encompassed with danger may lawfully “defend” their lives. It does not prove that it is lawful to make “offensive” war on a nation or an individual.

[b]Luk 22:38[/b] -
[b]Are two swords[/b] - The Galileans, it is said, often went armed. The Essenes did so also. The reason was that the country was full of robbers and wild beasts, and it was necessary to carry, in their travels, some means of defense. It seems that the disciples followed the customs of the country, and had with them some means of defense, though they had but two swords among the twelve.

[b]It is enough[/b] - It is difficult to understand this. Some suppose that it is spoken “ironically;” as if he had said, “You are bravely armed indeed, with two swords among twelve men, and to meet such a host!” Others, that he meant to reprove them for understanding him “literally,” as if he meant that they were then to procure swords for “immediate” battle. As if he had said, “This is absurd, or a perversion of my meaning. I did not intend this, but merely to foretell you of impending dangers after my death.” It is to be observed that he did not say “the two swords are enough,” but “it is enough;” perhaps meaning simply, enough has been said. Other matters press on, and you will yet understand what I mean.

Albert Barnes
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Already a picture can be formed of intention and [i]application[/i] as it were. The largest part of the understanding centering around the ideal of taking revenge, not defense as if there was to be none and certainly not of loving our enemies as a matter of course, generalities of a certain pacifism towards war that must be fought.

Next up, war, soldiers, commanders, what Jesus thought and expressed towards it all.

C
crsschk

Hello Stever,

Specifically Mike Balog posted:

"bro Stever
if there was a draft (and i am subject to the laws of the land as per scripture)and the Lord required me to sign up, i'd sign up, if He expressly said not to, i wouldn't. "

Just wanted to point out, that is not my quote.

M
MrBillPro

Read my signature line! and lets also not forget this scripture below that a lot of folks here seem to forget, my personal understanding of this simple to understand scripture is that in plain English "not Biblical words" is that what goes around comes around in plain Texan, so to me if you kill someone, you are going to be killed, rather the killing is justified under this scripture is in my opinion is Gods business and if God was standing on this scripture and his killing was meant to be and God wanted this carried out well I am not doubting what God does, I will leave that to the doubting Thomas folks.


"YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW."
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)

S
sermonindex

MrBillPro posted:


"YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW."
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)


Stever responds:

Thou shalt not MURDER is the commandment to man.

MURDER--to lie in wait, and to kill.

This is a personal commandment that is waived when we are in the military service, as an instrument of our Government- Read Romans to get further clarification in this matter.


God bless,

Stever :-D

MrBillPro posted:

Read my signature line! and lets also not forget this scripture below that a lot of folks here seem to forget, my personal understanding of this simple to understand scripture is that in plain English "not Biblical words" is that what goes around comes around in plain Texan, so to me if you kill someone, you are going to be killed, rather the killing is justified under this scripture is in my opinion is Gods business and if God was standing on this scripture and his killing was meant to be and God wanted this carried out well I am not doubting what God does, I will leave that to the doubting Thomas folks.


"YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW."
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)


C
crsschk

[i] And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, and saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.[/i]
Mat 8:5-13

[b]A centurion[/b] - Εκατονταρχος. A Roman military officer who had the command of one hundred men.

John Gill

The point of stressing here is to call to mind every instance that the Lord or the disciples had with the military of their time. Whether they be soldiers or commanders, nowhere is an ideal of pacifism expressed towards them or expected from them, nowhere does He or do they instruct them to lay down their arms and cease going to war, to battle.

John the Baptist, as the forerunner to the Lord Himself had the same mindset;

[i] And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages.[/i]
Luk 3:14

If I might interject something here I think what has been greatly misunderstood and wrenched completely out of it's proper context is a humanistic or 'humanism' philosophy that recasts the Lord and His intentions in our own image or way's of thinking.

The difficult emphasis I am attempting to bring forth is just to look at things and understand them from the point of view that He Himself gave towards these matters. And for the most part the impression He left was that of being unmoved, even non-pulsed by it all. Just facts as they are, pushing to a more penetrating and important question.

[i]There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.[/i] Act 10:1,2

[b]A centurion[/b] - Ἑκατονταρχης, The chief or captain of 100 men, as both the Greek and Latin words imply. How the Roman armies were formed, divided, and marshalled, see in the notes on Mat_20:16 (note). A centurion among the Romans was about the same rank as a captain among us.

The band called the Italian band - The word σπειρα, which we translate band, signifies the same as cohort or regiment, which sometimes consisted of 555 infantry, and 66 cavalry; but the cohors prima, or first cohort, consisted of 1105 infantry, and 132 cavalry, in the time of Vegetius. But the cavalry are not to be considered as part of the cohort, but rather a company joined to it. A Roman legion consisted of ten cohorts; the first of which surpassed all the others, both in numbers and in dignity. When in former times the Roman legion contained 6000, each cohort consisted of 600, and was divided into three manipuli; but both the legions and cohorts were afterwards various in the numbers they contained. As there were doubtless many Syrian auxiliaries, the regiment in question was distinguished from them as consisting of Italian, i.e. Roman, soldiers. The Italian cohort is not unknown among the Roman writers: Gruter gives an inscription, which was found in the Forum Sempronii, on a fine table of marble, nine feet long, four feet broad, and four inches thick; on which are the following words: -

l. maesio. l. f. pol.
rvfo. proc. avg.
trib. mil. leg. x.
appollinaris. trib.
coh. mil. ITALIC. volunt.
qvae. est. in. syria. praef.
fabrvm. bis.
See Gruter’s Inscriptions, p. ccccxxxiii-iv.

This was probably the same cohort as that mentioned here by St. Luke; for the tenth legion mentioned in the above inscription was certainly in Judea, a.d. 69. Tacitus also mentions the Italica legio, the Italic legion, lib. i. c. 59, which Junius Blaesus had under his command in the province of Lyons. We learn, from the Roman historians, that the fifth, tenth, and fifteenth legions were stationed in Judea; and the third, fourth, sixth, and twelfth in Syria. The Italic legion was in the battle of Bedriacum, fought, a.d. 69, between the troops of Vitellius and Otho; and performed essential services to the Vitellian army. See Tacitus, Hist. lib. ii. cap. 41. The issue of this battle was the defeat of the Othonians, on which Otho slew himself, and the empire was confirmed to Vitellius.

Wherever he sees it necessary, St. Luke carefully gives dates and facts, to which any might have recourse who might be disposed to doubt his statements: we have had several proofs of this in his Gospel. See especially Luk_1:1 (note), etc., and Luk_3:1 (note), etc., and the notes there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Decided against stringing this out too much longer by example upon example. Was not the Lord addressing the root of the matter, the most important aspects, the [i]other[/i] concerns predominately?

Mat 24:6 [i] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: [u]see that ye be not troubled[/u]: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet[/i].

Whatever ones particular eschatology, the sentiment is still the same. Whether it be His dismissing the disciples questions in regards to "[i]the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices, or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?[/i] The response is the same: [i]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.[/i] Luk 13:5

Mar 8:31 [i]And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.[/i]

Interesting is it not that it was the Roman soldiers who [i]put[/i] the Lord to death, but who was it that had long before murdered Him?

Mat 5:21 [i]Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[/i]

[b]Thou shalt not kill[/b] - See Exo_20:13. This properly denotes taking the life of another with malice, or with an intention to murder him. The Jews understood it as meaning no more. The comment of our Saviour shows that it was spiritual, and was designed to extend to the thoughts and feelings as well as the external act.

Mat 5:22 [i]But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:[/i]

[b]Mat 5:22 -
But I say unto you[/b]
- Jesus being God as well as man Joh_1:1, Joh_1:14, and therefore, being the original giver of the law, had a right to expound it or change it as he pleased. Compare Mat_12:6, Mat_12:8. He therefore spoke here and elsewhere as having authority, and not as the scribes. It may be added here that no mere man ever spake as Jesus did, when explaining or enforcing the law. He did it as having a right to do it; and he that has a right to ordain and change laws in the government of God must be himself divine.

[b]Is angry with His brother without a cause[/b] - Anger, or that feeling which we have when we are injured, and which prompts us to defend ourselves when in danger, is a natural feeling, given to us:

1.\tAs a proper expression of our disapprobation of a course of evil conduct; and

2.\tThat we may defend ourselves when suddenly attacked.

When excited against sin, it is lawful. God is angry with the wicked, Psa_7:11. Jesus looked on the hypocritical Pharisees with anger, Mar_3:5. So it is said, “Be ye angry, and sin not, Eph_4:26. This anger, or indignation against sin, is not what our Saviour speaks of here. What he condemns here is anger without a cause; that is, unjustly, rashly, hastily, where no offence has been given or intended. In that case it is evil; and it is a violation of the sixth commandment, because “he that hateth his brother, is a murderer,” 1Jo_3:15. He has a feeling which would lead him to commit murder, if it were fully acted out. The word “brother” here refers not merely to one to whom we are nearly related, having the same parent or parents, as the word is commonly used, but includes also a neighbor, or perhaps anyone with whom we may be associated. As all people are descended from one Father and are all the creatures of the same God, so they are all brethren: and so every man should be regarded and treated as a brother, Heb_11:16.

Albert Barnes


[i]And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: [u]for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.[/u]

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. [u]For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?[/u] Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.[/i]
Mar 8:32-38

Another point stressed strangely enough by way of military comparison and which I will leave off at. Would note that there is something just as peculiar in the entangling that we all can get ourselves into by missing the expressed sentiment that the Lord and the disciples were always pointing to:

[i]Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with [u]the affairs of this life[/u]; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.[/i] 2Ti 2:3,4

[b]2Ti 2:4 -
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life[/b]
- Having alluded to the soldier, and stated one thing in which the Christian minister is to resemble him, another point of resemblance is suggested to the mind of the apostle. Neither the minister nor the soldier is to be encumbered with the affairs of this life, and the one should not be more than the other. This is always a condition in becoming a soldier. He gives up his own business during the time for which he is enlisted, and devotes himself to the service of his country. The farmer leaves his plow, and the mechanic his shop, and the merchant his store, and the student his books, and the lawyer his brief; and neither of them expect to pursue these things while engaged in the service of their country. It would be wholly impracticable to carry on the plans of a campaign, if each one of these classes should undertake to prosecute his private business. See this fully illustrated from the Rules of War among the Romans, by Grotius, “in loc.” Roman soldiers were not allowed to marry, or to engage in any husbandry or trade; and they were forbidden to act as tutors to any person, or curators to any man’s estate, or proctors in the cause of other men. The general principle was, that they were excluded from those relations, agencies, and engagements, which it was thought would divert their minds from that which was to be the sole object of pursuit. So with the ministers of the gospel. It is equally improper for them to “entangle” themselves with the business of a farm or plantation; with plans of speculation and gain, and with any purpose of worldly aggrandizement. The minister of the gospel accomplishes the design of his appointment only when he can say in sincerity, that he “is not entangled with the affairs of this life;” compare the notes at 1Co_9:25-27.

[b]That he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier[/b] - That is, him who has enlisted him, or in whose employ he is. His great object is to approve himself to him. It is not to pursue his own plans, or to have his own will, or to accumulate property or fame for himself. His will is absorbed in the will of his commander, and his purpose is accomplished if he meet with his approbation. Nowhere else is it so true that the will of one becomes lost in that of another, as in the case of the soldier. In an army it is contemplated that there shall be but one mind, one heart, one purpose - that of the commander; and that the whole army shall be as obedient to that as the members of the human body are to the one will that controls all. The application of this is obvious. The grand purpose of the minister of the gospel is to please Christ. He is to pursue no separate plans, and to have no separate will, of his own; and it is contemplated that the whole “Corps” of Christian ministers and members of the churches shall be as entirely subordinate to the will of Christ, as an army is to the orders of its chief.

Albert Barnes

Finally and more importantly, to redirect this even more so ... Received the following from a brother who has traversed this site in the past as I was still forming my thoughts, the timing was quite interesting: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10974&post_id=85389&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=35#85389]Has the church missed the real war?[/url]

M
MrBillPro


Stever wrote:
MrBillPro posted:


"YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW."
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)


Stever responds:

Thou shalt not MURDER is the commandment to man.

MURDER--to lie in wait, and to kill.

This is a personal commandment that is waived when we are in the military service, as an instrument of our Government- Read Romans to get further clarification in this matter.


God bless,

Stever :-D

So are you saying one scripture outweighs or supersedes another one? this is what I am reading on your post.

S
sermonindex

MrBillPro posted:

"So are you saying one scripture outweighs or supersedes another one? this is what I am reading on your post. "

Stever responds:

No, what I am saying is that we have to understand what we read that gives us guidance in what to do, and how to act.

What you have posted is directed to individuals. What I have posted (about Murder) is directed to the individual. However, my reference to Romans is directed to an indviduals duty while in the military and police service of his Government. They are two entirely different teachings, that many in America and the majority of the Church has forgotten.

Romans 13 shows us that when we are in the military or on the police department, that we operate as a "minister" of the Government, and the individual rules you have posted are
WAIVED and REPLACED WITH THE FOLLOWING:

" 1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

God bless,


Stever :-D

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


MrBillPro wrote:

Stever wrote:
MrBillPro posted:


"YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW."
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)


Stever responds:

Thou shalt not MURDER is the commandment to man.

MURDER--to lie in wait, and to kill.

This is a personal commandment that is waived when we are in the military service, as an instrument of our Government- Read Romans to get further clarification in this matter.


God bless,

Stever :-D

So are you saying one scripture outweighs or supersedes another one? this is what I am reading on your post.

M
MrBillPro


Stever wrote:
MrBillPro posted:
What you have posted is directed to individuals.

You reap what you sow is only directed to individuals? I don't understand what you mean, you kill it's possible you might be killed right? that's pretty simple.

S
sermonindex

MrBillPro posted:

Stever wrote:
MrBillPro posted:
What you have posted is directed to individuals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You reap what you sow is only directed to individuals? I don't understand what you mean, you kill it's possible you might be killed right? that's pretty simple.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

So, let's put your understanding of scripture into perspective.

If I am a policeman, and respond to a bank robbery and end up forced to kill the bank robber, as well as two bystanders, that God will hold me accountable?


If I am a Marine, fighting in Iraq, and I have to kill an insurgent in the line of duty, that God will hold me accountable for this? If nine other people, that were not insuregents die in this battle, will God also hold me personally accountable for this?

Can you see the difference here, or, maybe you just don't want to see the difference?

Please re-read Romans, Chapter 13 and then tell respond as to the actual meaning of it. Also, please respond in regards to the police officer and the marine mentioned above, and their fate in regards to your understanding of Scripture.

God bless,

Stever :-D

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


MrBillPro wrote:

Stever wrote:
MrBillPro posted:
What you have posted is directed to individuals.

You reap what you sow is only directed to individuals? I don't understand what you mean, you kill it's possible you might be killed right? that's pretty simple.

I
IRONMAN

bro Stever
very well bro. you know however how i feel about your position concerning the rapture. if i am wrong then the Lord rebuke me and correct me and if you are, then may He do the same to you all for His glory.

What troubles me about your response is that IRONMAN HAS posted before on another thread that CHRIST HAS TOLD HIM that he will not be part of the rapture, but stay here and go through the Tribulation in order to witness to the lost.

and i think that gathering together of all the saints occurs after the tribulation, first with those martyred during (this is called the first resurrection by the word) and then everyone else after the 1000 yrs. so i think you're wrong on that issue. at any rate that is not the issue at hand. in as much as what i've heard from heaven, thus far the Lord has confirmed it all to His glory.

i'm glad though that i misunderstood you about being a man of prayer and faith. i wonder though if we have "fleshalized" the walk, for it seems to me if is a thing of the spirit and to get it right in the flesh (if i can say that) we have to have it right in spirit.

it is an honour to serve and i considered it seriously but the Lord evidently had other plans for me which He saw through.

I
IRONMAN


crsschk wrote:
Hello Stever,

Specifically Mike Balog posted:

"bro Stever
if there was a draft (and i am subject to the laws of the land as per scripture)and the Lord required me to sign up, i'd sign up, if He expressly said not to, i wouldn't. "

Just wanted to point out, that is not my quote.

yeah, it's mine so y'all will know.

I
IRONMAN

brethren
i guess ultimately we are all subject to death because we have sinned in one way or another so whether death comes at the hand of a man (whether we're killed or not) or something else entirely, we will all likely die at some point. However because we are of the True Faith, death is the beginning of something new and even better. i hope that at the end of the day we reazlize that the Far Country which we are called to is infinately better than anything the world has to offer. i for one can't wait to get there, just have to finish my work here first, then i'm out like a light!

homeward bound!

R
roaringlamb

It is interesting as i have participated in this thread, and watched it go this way and that way, it seems brethren we have forgotten one chief lesson.
"death to self"
You know it's funny, because I have views that do contrast with some on this topic(war etc.) but after I posted the other day, it was as if the Spirit reminded me that those are my views, my understanding of things. But the important unchanging Truth we are all bound together by is CHRIST Himself!! Not conspiracy theories, or patriotism. Not pro-this or anti-that. Instead brethren it seems this topic is dividing along lines that are not essential.
Oh I am guilty, and I ask you all to forgive me.
Let us labour to keep unity.
I remember once being challenged by this statement "you can tell a man's spiritual maturity by how he reacts when you touch his theology, views, etc."
Brethren I lay down any stones, and ask that we would seek HIM who holds all things.
Blessings to you all in Christ"s name

I
IRONMAN

bro Stever

How do I know that? Because we have been attacked by Militant Islam that wants to kill all of the Jews and Christians (Jews 1st, then the Christians, unless we convert to Islam), and then they want to kill all of the Gentiles in the rest of the world (unless they convert to Islam). God does not have to tell anyone if they should be part of this war or not. The common sense that he gave us tells us that!

perhaps we ought to seriously consider the issue of the Lord judging us using millitant islam for our own transgressions and/or reluctance to deal with islam as we should, by spreading the gospel. if 9/11 was judgment (the Lord has used heathens to chastize the Jews before and i don' think we're exempt from that as Christians) and we didn't call for repentance then this war might be a bad idea, nonetheless it would not be were it not God's will. in listening to Josef Tson's sermons yesterday when he spoke of how God raised up Khomeni and Bin-laden to get us to focus on spreading the gospel there, that made sense to me. if i'm a fool, Lord help me!

if we say that 9/11 was simply a tragedy which shouldn't have happened, or a thing which caught God by surprise,we are faced with equating that with a God who is not in control. if we view it as judgement, then we have to repent for whatever we are being judged for and do right.

there is so much to consider...

M
MrBillPro


Stever wrote:
Can you see the difference here, or, maybe you just don't want to see the difference?

I think that remark was uncalled for "yes" I do want to see the difference! do you always say that to folks just because they don't understand something you say? When you or anyone makes remarks like that they tend to lose their creditability with me because that is "not" very Christ like, remember some folks in this world are not as smart as others and we need to be helped along in a gentle "Christ Like" manner.

S
sermonindex

IRONMAN, I think that we are from different ages. You continue to be intent on "Spirualizing" this issue.

At this moment in history, at this dark time in history, with Sodom and Gomorah alive and well everywhere, you want to take this issue of serving in the military and put it under the covers, again.

Feel free to go wherever you want to go on this issue. Wherever you lead it, I am sure that it is not going anywhere that I can be part of. Sort of like a big circle, that goes back to Spirtualizing our walk.

God bless,

Stever ;-)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


IRONMAN wrote:
bro Stever
How do I know that? Because we have been attacked by Militant Islam that wants to kill all of the Jews and Christians (Jews 1st, then the Christians, unless we convert to Islam), and then they want to kill all of the Gentiles in the rest of the world (unless they convert to Islam). God does not have to tell anyone if they should be part of this war or not. The common sense that he gave us tells us that!

perhaps we ought to seriously consider the issue of the Lord judging us using millitant islam for our own transgressions and/or reluctance to deal with islam as we should, by spreading the gospel. if 9/11 was judgment (the Lord has used heathens to chastize the Jews before and i don' think we're exempt from that as Christians) and we didn't call for repentance then this war might be a bad idea, nonetheless it would not be were it not God's will. in listening to Josef Tson's sermons yesterday when he spoke of how God raised up Khomeni and Bin-laden to get us to focus on spreading the gospel there, that made sense to me. if i'm a fool, Lord help me!

if we say that 9/11 was simply a tragedy which shouldn't have happened, or a thing which caught God by surprise,we are faced with equating that with a God who is not in control. if we view it as judgement, then we have to repent for whatever we are being judged for and do right.

there is so much to consider...

R
roaringlamb

I wonder if we could just put this to bed already as it is not doing any good for us spiritually!
2Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. RSV
Eph 4:2 ¶ With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:17 ¶ This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
[b]Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.[/b]
Please don't get me wrong discussion is good, difference is good, but not over unessentials, and not when it hurts parts of the body.

S
sermonindex

Sorry, Bill. I really thought you were playing around with me.

If I hurt your feelings, I do apologize.

It just seems that today, in 2006 we have so many Brothers and Sisters in the Lord that are pacifists, and would rather run away than to actually serve their country. They would rather "Spiritualize" everything, and that is what is so very sad.

Again, if I hurt you it was not intentional.

God bless,

Stever :-)


MrBillPro wrote:

Stever wrote:
Can you see the difference here, or, maybe you just don't want to see the difference?

I think that remark was uncalled for "yes" I do want to see the difference! do you always say that to folks just because they don't understand something you say? When you or anyone makes remarks like that they tend to lose their creditability with me because that is "not" very Christ like, remember some folks in this world are not as smart as others and we need to be helped along in a gentle "Christ Like" manner.

I
IRONMAN

bro Stever
well bro we're from different times and i think it best to leave this alone, at the end of the day the Lord will have His way and He will be right. we can agree on that.i feel strongly about where i stand as you do so we'll leave it at that. bro if i have caused you to stumble in any way, please forgive me.

love you bro

R
roadsign

1Why are the nations in an uproar
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed, saying,
3"Let us tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!"

King David viewed war as nations fighting against the Anointed One – that is, Christ. In other words, war is an indication of nations trying to save themselves, trying to break free and make kingdoms for themselves. War is an indication of nations taking matters into their own hands rather than cry out to God for his mercy and redemption. War, then is an outcome of sin.

What ended Hitlers attempt to exterminate the Jews? War.
What ended the systamtic murder of thousands of people in Iraq by Saddam? War

This sounds like a humanist’s conclusion. Was it the might of man that won those wars? Where was God in it all? What about intercessors: ex, Rees Howells What about the miracles?


have the fortitude and the courage to give his life for his country and his progeny.

No where does it say in scripture that we are to give our life to our nation. We are to surrender it to God. I do not believe we can equate a nation with God. Nations come and go, but God’s kingdom lasts forever.


"See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people." (1 Thess 5:15) Individual Christians should show Christ's love to those who personally wrong them. But this does not mean that if someone physically threatens us we should not fight back. Nor does it imply that we shouldn't use physical force to aid another person being threatened.

This seems like a contradiction.
In such situations it would be a greater sin to stand by and do nothing that to help a person who is in danger.

“Help? Is there no better way to help someone than to exterminate the threat? What about crying out to God rather than take vengeance in your own hands? Can he not perform miracles? Has he not done so countless times? Think of all those incredible missionary accounts? I think of a Canadian pastor who once saw a woman about to be murdered. He ran up and stood in front of her and said to the evil men. “Shoot me, not her”. And they all dropped their guns. He was willing to die.

Evil is evil, and it must be stamped out for our children and grandchildren.

Seeking to guarantee a safe place for our children may be an idolatrous dream. But, yet, we can seek God with all our hearts, and perhaps he will be merciful. I see no way to stamp out evil other than through Christ – His Anointed One – beginning with ourselves. And he has given us weapons that are guaranteed to work: Ex “the shield of faith with which we can extinguish the flaming arrows of the evil one.” That is amazing - even faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains. Think what would happen if thousands have faith in our Lord.

Can I suggest that the desire to take vengeance is an indication of a lack of faith in our sovereign God? And without faith, man takes matters into his own hands?

the Bible makes a distinction between individual moral responsibility and governmental responsibility.
Yes, true: “Give to Caesar what is Caesar and to God what is God’s”. “For we are strangers and aliens here….” I owe Caesar my taxes, my respect, revenue, honor… and my love.” From what I can see in Scripture I do not owe him my life. That belongs to Christ and his kingdom. The best gift I can give my country is the Gospel – through my life, as a living epistle. That includes my prayers, my faith in God, and my total surrender to God – even if it costs me my life. The life Christ calls us to is not a passive religion that sits back and lets evil rule. We are warriors who fight evil by standing firm in the Lord.

perhaps we ought to seriously consider the issue of the Lord judging us using millitant islam for our own transgressions and/or reluctance to deal with islam as we should, by spreading the gospel.

Just suppose we took this statement to be true, that God is judging the West. Then our way of dealing with the problem would look different, wouldn’t it. We would turn to God and admit our sins and repent. And if we did, then, might it not be possible that God himself could subdue the enemy? Or does he not work that way in this day and age? ………….Something to think about…


It looks like our views in these matters has more to do with our understanding of God than anything – and especially His Anointed One (Ps. 2:2)
Diane

S
sermonindex

Stevers response to Roadsign:

To summarize: God has nothing to do with Governments. God had nothing to do with Ancient Iraq conquering Israel. God had nothing to do with the Meads and Persians conquering Iraq. God had nothing to do with Greece (Alexander the Great) conquering the Meads and the Persians. God had nothing to do with Rome conquering Greece, thus setting up the conditions for Christ to be crucified.

God did not need David to use the sling to kill the giant Goliath. David took 3 stones to do the job-because Goliath had two brothers, but once David killed Goliath the other two never came after him.

I guess God did not even need David because He could have just done it himself. David could have prayed and God would have zapped him.

All we have to do is pray, and God does all the work.

How about Romans Chapter 13, what shall we do with it?

How about the Book of Esther? Should we forget it's message of God working with man (woman) to fulfill His purpose?

Esther 4:12-17
10. Again Esther spake unto Hatach, and gave him commandment unto Mordecai; 11. All the king's servants, and the people of the king's provinces, do know, that whosoever, whether man or woman, shall come unto the king into the inner court, who is not called, there is one law of his to put him to death, except such to whom the king shall hold out the golden sceptre, that he may live: but I have not been called to come in unto the king these thirty days.
12. And they told to Mordecai Esther's words.
13. Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews.
14. For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
15. Then Esther bade them return Mordecai this answer, 16. Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.
17. So Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him.

On the third day, Esther went into the King, risking her life in the process. The result, the Jews were saved and Haman was hung on the Gallows he had prepared for Mordacai!

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The Bible tells us that He works through man, and uses man for his purposes.


God has established nations and individuals for His purpose. In the New Testament book of Acts, chapter 17, verses 26 and 27, we read, "...He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;..."

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The Bible says God intervenes in the lives of Nations and men.

God intervenes in the lives of both nations and individuals because He cares for them and has a purpose for them. Regarding nations, he promises to bless those who follow Him and curse those who do not (see Deut. chapters 29 and 30 in the Old Testament).

He does this because He has revealed Himself as a personal God, not a vague "force", or a god who inhabits all living things, which would make him different in all beings. In fact, He has a name. Several, actually; the most common being "Yahweh". Somewhat like us when we name our pets, He has even named the stars. We read in the Old Testament book of Isaiah, chapter 40, verse 26: "Lift up your eyes on high and see who has created these stars, the One who leads forth their host by number, He calls them all by name;..."

Being thus a personal being, He has a specific personality. He has emotions, a will, an intelligence, and standards for right and wrong. While He exists independently of man, He has made man in His image, as the being He treasures most. This infinite God from eternity past also actually loves this finite, fickle, creation of man. This is really a pretty staggering thought.

We read this in Psalm 8: 3 -- "When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained; what is man that You take thought of him, and the son of man that You care for him?'"

There is no support in the Bible for the existence of extra-terrestrials. Hebrews 2: 7,8 say: "You have made him for a little while lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, and have appointed him over the works of Your hands; You have put all things in subjection under His feet." In the New Testament we see that God sent His Son for a vital purpose, one dear to His heart, the redemption of mankind. Jesus wasn't sent to die for the forgiveness of sins for animals or space aliens.

As part of His intervention in the course of nations, He raises up rulers and disposes of them at will. For example, in the Old Testament book of Jeremiah 27: 6, 7 we read "Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and I have given him also the wild animals of the field to serve him. All the nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will make him their servant." Nebuchadnezzar was a heathen king, not initially a believer in Yahweh, but was literally putty in the hands of God. Many other examples of God intervening in the course of nations can be found in the Bible.

He establishes nations and individuals for His purpose. In the New Testament book of Acts, chapter 17, verses 26 and 27, we read, "...He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;..."

A logical question to ask would be, are these stories really true? Do we have any proof that these people of long ago existed? There are many examples of the historical reliability of the Bible by archaeology. Nelson Glueck, a Jewish archaeologist, wrote in his book Rivers in the Desert; History of the Negev, Jewish Publications Society of America, 1969, "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference." Just a very few of the ways archaeology has confirmed biblical accounts of rulers, nations, and cities have been the excavation of the Elba tablets in Syria in 1964, confirming the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis; and Publius, a ruler of Malta (we read about him in the book of Acts, chapter 28) which we see confirmed in excavations as reported by F. F. Bruce, "Archaeological Confirmation of the New Testament", from Revelation and the Bible, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1969.

While this will not prove to all people that God does intervene in the courses of nations, we have good reason to believe that the nations, cities, and individuals cited in the Bible did exist. Indeed, history backs up the Bible more than any book of ancient literature. Finally, simply look at how nations have fared according to how they have denied or followed God. The basic history of nations will show if they have been blessed or cursed according to how God says He will deal with them.

For example, which nations have produced the most important inventions, and progress in science and medicine? Where did penicillin, anesthetics, organ transplants, the telegraph, electric lights, microwave ovens, radio, computers, telephones, trains, airplanes, weather satellites and many other advances come from? Christian nations that obeyed the God of the Christian Bible!

There are countless cases of God intervening in the lives of individuals in the Bible. In fact, He knows us and has a plan for our lives before we are born. In Psalm 139:16 we read, "Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." That passage also tells us that human life begins in the womb.
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How do we ever "step out in faith", after we have received the Word from God, if we expect that God will do all of the work?

What about America becoming a Nation? Did God have anything to do with that? How many men lost their lives bringing this about? God uses man for his purposes, and God uses Nations- he builds them up and tears them down.

How about World War II? Did God have anything to do with the outcome of that war?


According to the prophecies of
Daniel, one more Nation will arise during the Tribulation that will rule the earth one last time. A nation of Iron and Clay. The ruler of that Nation? Anti-christ.


God bless,

Stever :-D

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roadsign wrote:
1Why are the nations in an uproar
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed, saying,
3"Let us tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!"

[Long post snipped]

B
Basis_Hound

IronMan,

I have just today found these forums and am already fascinated by the discussions going on here.

In reading your post, I am confused about a couple of your statements:

You say: i'm not for people not being punished as the law makes provision for their crimes. this goes for anyone and everyone from the pauper to the president for noone should be exempt from the law.

And you also say: should we not witness to such people?

And you also say: brethren if i am wrong and a fool forgive me and seek the Lord to loose me from this, but i am convinced that if we were to operate in the Love of God, nothing would be out of reach. even bin-laden himself would be brought to Christ if the pure love of God were to confront him.

Based on what you have said, I have a few questions:

One: You say that you are in favor of punishing criminals. How is executing justice on a Terrorist different? The man admitted (and even gloried in) his crimes. He received the prescribed penalty.

Two: Who has said that executing a murderer means that you don't love him? I think you are answering an argument that hasn't been put forward here. Besides, if it is indeed the case that executing a murderer means that you don't love him, then God doesn't love those whom He executes (or worse, those who end up in Hell).
But we all know that God loves Everyone, so punishing a wrongdoer is clearly not at odds with loving him. Also, I would venture to say that everyone on this site would indeed have witnessed to Zarqawi, if given the chance.

Three: You seem to be saying that it is inappropriate for Christians to rejoice at justice being done.
I found this quote by the one God calls "A man after My own heart" - David in Psalm 58:10

"The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked"

It is in context of rejoicing at God bringing judgement upon the wicked.

If you have a problem with Anyone alive today rejoicing that a mass murderer was stopped, please show how David was wrong here. If you cannot show how David was wrong to rejoice at the bloody death of the wicked, then you also cannot show how anyone alive today would be wrong to do so. Please keep in mind that Jesus, the Son of David, never changes and that the same Holy Spirit that inspired David inspires us today as well.

So either you must prove that God changed on something so basic as rejoicing AT (-not IN) the death of a wicked man,
or you must agree that there is validity in rejoicing in the Justice of God being made manifest.

Four: You say brethren if i am wrong and a fool forgive me and seek the Lord to loose me from this, but i am convinced that if we were to operate in the Love of God, nothing would be out of reach. even bin-laden himself would be brought to Christ if the pure love of God were to confront him.

What if Bin-Laden was confronted with the pure love of God and still rejected it? If you say this is not possible, then you are saying that Man does not have free will. In order to choose to Love God, Mankind MUST have the freedom to reject Him. One must be very careful when speaking about Moral Freedom of choice (Men and Angels) - it is the only thing in the Universe God has chosen to limit himself from ruling completely.


A final note: You must remember that Christianity is a religion of Paradoxes, it IS possible to rejoice at the death of a Murdering Madman AT THE SAME TIME AS mourning the death of a human made in the Image of God.

Have I read you correctly?
Let me know.


C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone. I reading and watching this discussion move along I have been reminded of the importance of checking our motives before we act, or speak. For instance, even though our doctrine [i][b]may[/b][/i] be pure, if the reason and manner in which we bear the sword of the Spirit is [i][b]not pure[/b][/i] then are not our works disqualified, not to mention in danger of being destructive?

Blessed indeed are the [b]meek[/b], or as I understand it, those whose power is[i] under control[/i], God's control that is.

Peace be with you all in Christ

S
sermonindex

Basis_Hound posted to IRONMAN:

"A final note: You must remember that Christianity is a religion of Paradoxes, it IS possible to rejoice at the death of a Murdering Madman AT THE SAME TIME AS mourning the death of a human made in the Image of God."

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Stever's response:

Amen, Amen, and Amen!

I totally agree, and it is nice to have you on board.

God bless,

Stever :-D

P.S. You have read correctly.

I
IRONMAN

bro Basis Hound
welcome to S.I!

well to your first question, i never objected to Al-Zarqawi's execution not said it wasn't justice. i just disagreed with the rejoicing over it because God doesn't rejoice over the death of a sinner. Now relief i suppose is called for but unless we also repent we will likewise perish.

again i never said that executing him meant not loving him at all, if i came across that way it was unintended. however you do bring up a good point which i was unaware of, the fact that the rejoicing may not be for the death of a man (albeit a wicked one) but for the justice of the Lord being manifest and mourn the death of a man. i thank God for that revelation!

What if Bin-Laden was confronted with the pure love of God and still rejected it? If you say this is not possible, then you are saying that Man does not have free will. In order to choose to Love God, Mankind MUST have the freedom to reject Him. One must be very careful when speaking about Moral Freedom of choice (Men and Angels) - it is the only thing in the Universe God has chosen to limit himself from ruling completely.

if Bin-Laden was confronted with the Love of God he would not resist. do i think man has free will, yes but only in the confines of God's Sovereign will. Consider this,if we can do whatsoever we want without God having any control, He is not sovereign. nothing happens outside His will, nothing catches Him by surprise, His forknowledge of events is His determination on how they should be. our perception of what free will is, and indeed many other things eg love is warped. it is shaped mainly before we come to Christ from our flesh. That too must die on the cross if we are to be successful for Christ. We've delved into this before and i learned that i'm called to be a vessel of mercy from before the foundations of the world...better yet just read Romans 9 and some of the other epistles of Paul wherein he says you who were called from before the setting of the foundation of the earth (or something to that effect)

I
IRONMAN

by the way bro Basis Hound you read some things correctly and others wrong.

I
IRONMAN

brethren

Hi everyone. I reading and watching this discussion move along I have been reminded of the importance of checking our motives before we act, or speak. For instance, even though our doctrine may be pure, if the reason and manner in which we bear the sword of the Spirit is not pure then are not our works disqualified, not to mention in danger of being destructive?

i think we all in some measure have neglected this most important issue :cry:

R
roadsign

Stever wrote to Roadsign,

Your response would be welcomed.

I admit, Stever, that we haven’t had many conversations together, so you haven’t had a chance to know my headspace. So, I can see that some of my points could seem unbiblical. For example: You are justifiably concerned about “faith” being a mask for passivity and fatalism. This pervasive position has indeed crept under the umbrella of Christianity.

On the other hand, because our western world operates on a humanistic foundation, humanism has also infected our thinking – quite unconsciously. In other words, man, though he may take God’s name and call himself Christian, still wants to be in charge. Man must control his own destiny. And so we see countless professing Christians trying hard to follow God’s laws in their own strength (trusting in “self”), but they still really wish to be master of themselves – their own god. That’s what the Pharisees did, and we see that pervasively in our churches. It affects our entire worldview – including our view of war.

In the OT, God did indeed use nations to bring about judgment. But that was no indication that the aggressors were obedient to God. Later on they received their own judgments. In fact, God didn’t even show any favoritism to his beloved nation, Israel. Israel could not count on his protection as long as they took his name in vain (ie called themselves children of God without trusting in him)

It is worth noting that in the OT, military victories were clearly also spiritual victories. For example: Gideon and his 300. Clearly, when God goes before us, numbers are not needed, nor is the might of man. One smooth stone was enough to knock down Goliath. It was a divine victory. David was rewarded for his FAITH (in God, not himself)

Ancient Israel was to be a theocracy – a nation state under divine authority. But after their failure God’s people would no longer form a nation state. Jesus himself pointed out to Pilate that if he had come to set up an earthly kingdom, his disciples would have been fighting it. Now God’s holy “nation” includes all his TRUE followers and they are all over. Right now God is calling thousands even among our “enemy” nations. We are called to protect God’s children, and I think that we have failed to do that, because of selfish interests - like oil, land, dominance, self-preservation, etc.

Someone earlier stated that war was the only thing that stopped Hitler. I would like to suggest that war was the result of a failure to subdue him long before he ever got to where he did. For a while he was even considered a hero by the Brits because of his ant-Russian stand. Also, the USA delayed involvement because of conflicting interests. I’m not a historian, so I refrain from too many details. But, keep in mind that history books are written by the victors. God has an entirely different perspective.

My parents were in Holland during occupation. My paternal grandfather had a strong faith in God and lived it with all his strength. He trusted in God, and he and his family risked their lives over and over again to hide Jews and others who were in danger. They provided food and clothing (provided in miraculous ways). God spared them many times from certain death. My predecessors fought with the weapon of faith. And oh.. the blessings even down the generations!


surely there is nothing that can't be accomplished in this Love for we are indeed more than conquerors through He that Loved us.

Romans 8: 38 is not speaking to those who have some level of supremacy. It is speaking to God’s children – those who have nothing in themselves, no power, no influence, no status, no wealth. Clearly, victory over the enemy is not accomplished by the might of man – but by the power of Christ – and that happens through him ruling in the hearts of man.

A recent thread pointed out two kinds of fire: The fire of God or the fire of hell.
God’s fire always points towards mercy. It is redemptive. It leads people to heaven. Fire from hell leads people to hell. It takes vengeance into its own hands – it destroys. One fire is life; one is death. One is “unauthorized fire” , one is given by God.

Which fire are we using in our efforts to conquer evil? Which fire is burning in our bones?

Diane

B
Basis_Hound

You said:

if Bin-Laden was confronted with the Love of God he would not resist.

I agree, and that is precicely the reason that God does not confront those whom He has forseen will reject Him. Namely, to preserve their free will. Otherwise, freewill is an illusion and nobody need go to hell because God could just confront everyone and we would all choose Him. I think it is one of the chief agonies of God that his own creation chooses to reject him, but in order to have the possibility of voluntary Love, there must be the option of voluntary rejection.

You said:

do i think man has free will, yes but only in the confines of God's Sovereign will. Consider this,if we can do whatsoever we want without God having any control, He is not sovereign.

What if God's will is that we "do whatsoever we want"?

The "confines of God's Sovereign will" include man's free choice; it is God's will that we choose our own destiny, therefore any choice we make is within God's Sovereign will. There is no contradiction.

Romans 1 & 2 say several times "God gave them over" As C.S. Lewis said "There will be two kinds of people in the end: Those that will say to God 'Thy will be done' and those to whom God will say 'Thy will be done.'"

Also, a perspective on Foreknowledge and Predestination is that God is able both to foreknow AND to allow ABSOLUTE freedom.

It is like when I ask my daughter (who HATES pickles and LOVES Ice Cream)

"Would you like Ice Cream or a Pickle?"

I KNOW without doubt which one she will choose, yet I am not forcing her to choose one or the other.

If you say "That is no choice at all! She would never choose a pickle!" you are right! If she was choosing based on what she truly desires, she would never choose a pickle.

But if she was choosing just to spite me...

Who would Choose Hell? Yet, according to Matthew 7:13, Many will choose hell.

Anyway, thanks for making me think!

But I seem to have wandered from my original point, which was that it is Biblical to rejoice at the Justice of God being made manifest in the death of the wicked.(Psalm 58:10)

I
IRONMAN

bro basis Hound
in doing a bit of digging about foreknowledge using matthew henry's commentary, the same word in the greek which is used for foreknowledge is also rendered fore-ordination. then in john 6:65 the word says that noone may come to Christ except the Father calls him...and Christ says the same in vs 44 of that chapter. this speak to the tragedy of our fallennes that even if we wanted to we couldn't even begin to come to God because it is completely foreign to us. God's grace and mercy must first move for us to even become aware that we need salvation. what a most pittiful state we are in as humans! God help us indeed for without that, we're done.

when did you first know about free will? before or after Christ? if before, what shaped that view and has that view changed?

in short bro free will and predestination are 2 things which seem mutually exclusive to our fleshly mind, but when predestination is fully understood, that is the mystery thereof, then God's mercy and sovereignty become plain to the recipient so that he doesn't boast he is saved, but is humbled, and is in constant repentance and supplication for the other vessels of mercy out there. such a one is so acutely aware of God's mercy that he shows that mercy to all.

now let us wander back to your original point :-P

i stand corrected and increased in the knowledge of God about rejoicing in the manifestation of the judgement of God. i was ignorant of this so i thank God for the beauty of fellowship wherein we all learn something to His glory.

B
boomatt

great post Ironman!!!

I love this one:

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

I
IRONMAN

brethren
sis diane brings up a compelling issue again, the need for death of self. in short everything we are and have must go to the cross to be crucified, ambitions, ideas, common sense even the love we have naturally. all this is of no use in the work of God and must be stripped off lest we dare boast and say that we did something for God on our own strength...

after all brethren, don't the heathens also have these same attributes? do they not also love and have common sense and ambition? if they do, how different can we be from them? the word says the old man must die, we must die that Christ lives in us and we have a lot of dying to do...the truth is we ought to lean wholly on the ability of God in all things for anything else will ensure that whatever we are wrestling against will not be subdued.

bro Stever you said that i'm spiritualizing our walk, if we don't tackle the issue of our faith in spirit, how can we hope to see it manifest in the flesh? if one is to be a martyr or indeed suffer anything for Christ, he has to be dead in the flesh first. if not the flesh will fight tooth and nail to keep from suffering. one can't die for Christ unless one is dead in the flesh, sure one can say he is dying for Christ, but then there is the issue of doing so without love as paul says and it all amounting to nothing. the only way the martyrs of old endured what they did was because they were dead to self and had no regard for their existance but were concerned with giving God glory. we need to see the primacy of this and that all we do, and i mean every single thing issues forth from that, even those things which seem like no brainers. before Christ we saw those things and dealt with them accorning to our fleshly knowledge and experience, should that not change now that we are in Christ?

I
IRONMAN

bro Matt
i love that about God too! man to be conformed to the image of His Son who sought to do the Father's will and glorify Him...whoa...that is HUGE!!!or should i say that is ALL in ALL!!!

B
Basis_Hound

IronMan,

I agree with you that freewill and predestination seem to be mutually exclusive, but remember, Christianity is a religion of Paradoxes and, as I said, there is no contradiction.

I think you misunderstand my emphasis. I am saying that God foreknew which choice each of us would make "of our own free will" and predestined us accordingly, so "Everyone who seeks, finds." Again, I say there is no contradiction!

We, in the end will each freely choose the choice which God foreknew and predestined.

You asked:

when did you first know about free will? before or after Christ? if before, what shaped that view and has that view changed?

I am wondering what you mean by that

To answer your question: I came to Christ at the age of 5 ('Calling on the Name of the Lord' is a moral choice, not an intellectual one)and so all of my theology has been developed after I came to Christ.

About your final paragraph: I am genuinely impressed by your humility. It is a beautiful thing and far too rare in this world.

I guess you'll now call me "Wondering Basis_Hound" :-)

I
IRONMAN

bro (wondering/wandering) Basis hound :-P

I agree with you that freewill and predestination seem to be mutually exclusive, but remember, Christianity is a religion of Paradoxes and, as I said, there is no contradiction.

oh i agree bro, i think we've been talking past eachother. yes the 2 seem mutually exclusive and impossible to reconcile yet this is the case. When we get on the other side the mechanics of this mystery will be made plain, for now i'm content to see it as the Lord's Sovereign exercise of His mercy and that i'm called to be a vessel of mercy so i'll do whatever it is vessels of mercy do.

well since you came to Christ at such an early age, the Lord certainly had great influence on how you perceive the world and this is a most important thing.

About your final paragraph: I am genuinely impressed by your humility. It is a beautiful thing and far too rare in this world.

well bro, you have the Lord to thank for that because if it were not for Him, i'd be a very different man...naturally i'm very stubborn but the Lord let me know that in spite of how highly i thought of myself, i needed redemption and i was not even aware of it. till He let me know anyway. that'll set you down right quick. When the Lord reveals the extent of His mercy on you, you can't think highly of yourself any more coz His mercy smacks you in your face in a way you can't quite ignore. anyway i bless and thank God and give Him the glory coz it is a testament to His mercy working in me!

S
sermonindex

Dear Daine: You are correct, I am not aware of your headspace. However, I have a question for you that will hopefully resolve this issue.

If your country, Canada, was attacked by another country, and all able bodied men and women were required to serve in the military, would you comply, or would you leave your country in order to not comply?

God bless,

Stever :-D


roadsign wrote:
Stever wrote to Roadsign,
Your response would be welcomed.

I admit, Stever, that we haven’t had many conversations together, so you haven’t had a chance to know my headspace. So, I can see that some of my points could seem unbiblical. For example: You are justifiably concerned about “faith” being a mask for passivity and fatalism. This pervasive position has indeed crept under the umbrella of Christianity.

[Post snipped]

T
Tears_of_joy

Hi, Stever,
Let us imagine next situation.
Your country and my country are in war. And as I can understand you will take sword. Let us say that I will take sword also. And both of us are in front lines. And we start shouting each other, because we are in war for our country. From your logic we should fight for our country.
And can you imagine the face of our Lord Jesus?
Can you see the tragedy of that?
God is watching Hid children fighting, with carnal weapons. Imagine that your pastor will be there, and mine pastor will be there. And many members of our churches. What a tragedy of that.
These are last days. And there is a spritual war, that few can see it. There is no time for other battles. The devil is with all his might against us. To destroy the believers.

Two nights ago I was going through revelation and without intention for searching verses, this verse came to me like thunder:

[i][b]9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.[/b]
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: [b]he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.[/b][/i]

Is this something with double meaning, are we trying to avoid what Jesus said, and to change the meaning of it, it is simple. the bible is also fom simple and plain people. people who don't have education and don't know to make bible complex. people just with faith like childrens.
how can you explane to your children that it is ok to kill for the government, when you children knows that Jesus tells them not to kill. it is simple.
And so the arguments come pouring forth in quick succesion-all to prove that the Lord Jesus could not have meant what He said. there are no contradictions in the bible.

[i]15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.[/i]

we don't need PhD to understand the words of our Lord, we need just an open heart with faith like child.

You are refering to what David, Abraham and others did in the old testament. But you are not saying what Jesus said to us.

[i]It hath been said... [b]But I say unto you,[/b] [/i]

there is new commandment.

May the Lord give us faith like children, to accept His words with all our heart and believe them with no doubts.

S
sermonindex

Dear Tears of Joy:

As an individual believer in Jesus Christ, what you posted most definitely applies to me and every other christian individually.

It does not apply if we are in the service of our country--if we are acting as a policeman, or as soldiers, we are to take up the sword to defend righteousness.

I truly pray that you can see the difference between individuals and those working for the Government when they are no longer judged as individuals by God, and have a specific duties and functions in the Governments that God set up on this earth.

This is the work done by J. Vernon McGee in his Bible Commentary on Romans 13:


[b][size=small]RELATIONSHIP TO GOVERNMENT


Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God [Rom. 13:1]. [/size][/b]

We are to submit ourselves to governmental authorities for the very simple reason that they are ordained of God. It is true that the kingdoms of this world belong to Satan and that injustice and corruption abound in all governments; yet God still has control. History is the monotonous account of how a government flourished for a time in pomp and pride and then was brought to ruin and rubble. Why? Because corruption and lawlessness became rampant. As it did, God brought the government to an end. God still rules—even over this earth. God has not abdicated His throne; He is riding triumphantly in His own chariot. Neither is He disturbed about what is happening on this earth.

You will recall that when Uzziah, king of Judah, died, Isaiah was disturbed and very much discouraged. Uzziah had been a good king, and Isaiah thought the government would disintegrate after he was gone. So Isaiah went into the temple, which is a good place to go at a time like that. He came into God’s presence, and He saw the Lord sitting upon the throne, high and lifted up. In other words, God had not abdicated. Uzziah was dead, but God was not dead. God was still on the throne.
Now the allegiance of the Christian is to that throne. And his relationship to his government on earth is submission.


[b][size=small]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation [Rom. 13:2].[/size][/b]

In other words, anyone resisting the authority is resisting the ordinance of God. And those resisting shall receive for themselves judgment.
The principle stated in verse 1 raised many questions which the following verses amplify and explain. This verse seems to preclude the possibility of a believer having any part in rebellion or revolution. What about it? James Stifler cites the examples of Cromwell and Washington. Both of those men led a revolution. Stifler offers no solution. I am not sure I have one either, but I am going to do the best I can to solve this. The believer has opposed bad government and supported good government on the theory that good government is the one ordained of God. The believer is for law and order, as over against lawlessness. He is for honesty and justice, as over against corruption and rank injustice. At great moments of crisis in history—and that’s where we are today—the believers have had difficult decisions to make.

I want to briefly give you my viewpoint, and I believe that it will coincide with history. During these last days, which I believe we are in right now, lawlessness abounds. The believer must oppose it; he must not be a part of it, even when it is in his own government. We need to beware of those who would change our government under the guise of improving it. Remember John the Baptist was beheaded by Herod, Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, James, the brother of John, was slain with the sword of Herod, and Paul was put to death by Nero. Yet Paul says, “Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation” (v. 2). Therefore, Christianity never became a movement to improve government, help society, or clean up the town. The gospel was the power of God unto salvation of the individual. Paul never went around telling about the deplorable conditions of Roman jails—and he knew them well from the inside. When visiting Rome, my wife and I went to the Mamertine prison, and I got claustrophobia down there. I said to my wife, “Let’s get out of here!” But Paul couldn’t get out; they kept him down in that damp, dark prison. Remember he wrote to Timothy, “Bring my cloak with you” (see 2 Tim. 4:13)—he was getting cold down there.

It is very difficult to say that we are to obey a corrupt government. I am not impressed by these men—preacher or politician—who are running up the American flag and singing the national anthem as promotion for themselves. And behind it is corruption. Frankly, I feel resentful when I hear of certain government officials and certain wealthy men in positions of power who pay no taxes at all when I have a heavy tax burden. There is corruption in government from the top to the bottom, and it is not confined to one party. These unsaved, godless men who are in positions of government actually do not understand the American system. You see, the men who made our laws had a Bible background. I don’t know that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian—he was a deist—but he had great respect for the Word of God. Many of those men were outstanding Christians—John Hancock, whose name is first on the Declaration of Independence, was a real Christian. However, in our day the government is corrupt. I go to the civic centers in our cities, and I see fine buildings, costing millions of dollars, which have been built by contractors who are friends of the politicians. Also I see poverty areas. While both parties talk about eliminating poverty, the poverty remains. Oh, corruption is there. What’s wrong? Well, the thing wrong is the human heart.
What is the Christian to do? My business is to get out the Word of God, and my business is to obey the law. That is what Paul is saying here. Christianity is not a movement to improve government or to help society clean up the town. It is to preach a gospel that is the power of God unto salvation which will bring into existence individuals like the men who signed the Declaration of Independence and gave us a government of laws.

My friend, nothing is wrong with our form of government; there is something wrong with the individuals who are in positions of power. A professor in the history department of the University of Michigan summed it up well when he said, “America is in the hands of those who do not understand the spiritual heritage that we have.”


[b][size=small]For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil [Rom. 13:3–4].[/size][/b]

The government is to maintain law and order. When it does not do that, it has failed. I feel that a Christian should be opposed to the breakdown of law and order. We are to respect our rulers who are enforcing the law. I have great respect for our army, although it is honeycombed with corruption. I have great respect for police officers, although I know they make mistakes.


[b][size=small]Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake [Rom. 13:5].[/size][/b]

Christians are to obey the law not only because we’ll be judged and have to pay a fine if we don’t, but obey for conscience sake.


For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing [Rom. 13:6].[/size][/b]

Although we may resent the way our tax money is being used, we are to pay taxes anyway.
In this verse the word for minister is one from which we get our word liturgy. It is strictly religious and is the same word used of angels in Hebrews 1:14 where they are called ministering spirits. This means that the ruler occupies a divinely-appointed office. He has no religious function, of course, but he holds a God-appointed office. That makes me pay my taxes, although I resent doing so.

We need today a heaven-sent revival. I am sick and tired of those who are shedding crocodile tears. They remind me of Lewis Carroll’s brilliant satire, Alice in Wonderland. You remember that the Walrus and the Carpenter in this story were walking along the seashore weeping because there was so much sand and not enough oysters. They kept on eating and eating and weeping and weeping. What a picture of corruption! But in all of this the believer should submit to his government.


[[b][size=small]Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour [Rom. 13:7].[/size][/b]

Although there may be unworthy men in the office, we are to respect the office. When I was in the army, I was told to salute the uniform. There were some folk in that uniform that I didn’t care about saluting, but I saluted the uniform. We are to show respect for authority. A Christian will be the best citizen although his citizenship is in heaven.

McGee, J. Vernon, Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 2000, c1981.
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God bless,

Stever :-D

B
boomatt

Great post stever,

and please pray for my brother William, he is going back to Iraq Aug. 1

R
roadsign

Stever said:

If your country, Canada, was attacked by another country

Let’s suppose that other country was the USA. There would be 100 of you against 1 of me. All-out war against you would be a sure defeat for us. So I doubt my country would call me to fight you. So what might my people do in order to protect our nation? You’ve heard it said: if you can’t beat them you join them. Now that’s a better idea. We could be your friends instead, and join your way of life – buy your movies, watch your TV stations, read your books, adopt your philosophies, order your Christian music and adopt your religious trends. We could let you own our companies on our land. We could buy your franchises and give your some of our air space. So, now, we are friends. There is no need for war. Thankfully. (really?)

Suppose we don’t want to buy your way of life, and we want to maintain our own identity and religion. We can’t defeat you, but we can try to weaken you. So my leaders might choose terrorism. What a great idea! We have no other choice. Anyway, there is nothing to lose. And if all fails, at least we have a reward in the next life. After all, we have God on our side.


You see, a confusion arises when we wrap our flag around the cross too tightly. So we get this horrible dilemma:

Your country and my country are in war. And as I can understand you will take sword. Let us say that I will take sword also. And both of us are in front lines. And we start shouting each other, because we are in war for our country.

Let me tell you, if your God tells you to obey your rulers – even when they tell you to drop a bomb on me and my children and my friends, then I want nothing to do with your God.

Diane

R
roadsign

Stever continued:

and all able bodied men and women were required to serve in the military… would you comply, or would you leave your country in order to not comply?

This question gives me only two options. One is fight and the other is flight – both are fear responses. Are there no other options???

Now, let’s examine God’s thoughts on these two options presented.

When Israel was under captivity in Babylon God, through Jeremiah, gave them strict instructions to remain, to accept their ruling authorities, to grow crops, and make homes. However, the Israelites could not trust God to care for them during their captivity, so they disobeyed God’s instructions and fled to Egypt. (the flight approach) They got walloped!

Now fast forward to 70 AD, when the Jews took the sword against the Romans. (the fight approach) They got walloped – this time for good. Their entire civilization was dispersed. I ask, should they have known better? What was their sin?

In both historical accounts the sin was the same: unbelief. They could not see any other option in “dealing” with their oppressors.

Romans 13:1 says
Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished.

Clearly, the Jews were warned not to oppose their present authorities – the Romans, but simply accept them, and instead trust God to protect and provide. Jesus also made that clear in many ways. He came to be the governor of another kingdom – and that kingdom keeps on growing.

So if neither flight nor fight (both fear responses) are God-given options in dealing with our threats, then we must ask, Has God given us some clear workable viable options? What are they?

Diane

S
sermonindex

Stever posted:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and all able bodied men and women were required to serve in the military… would you comply, or would you leave your country in order to not comply?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
xxxxxxxxxxx
Roadsign responded:
This question gives me only two options. One is fight and the other is flight – both are fear responses. Are there no other options???


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever concludes:

How did I know that you would not have a straight yes or no answer?

I knew in my heart that this would be your response. That is why I cut to the chase and asked the specific question above.

God bless,

Stever :-D

I
IRONMAN

brethren
sister diane wrote this

You see, a confusion arises when we wrap our flag around the cross too tightly. So we get this horrible dilemma:

i am led of God to speak to this issue. why should we wrap the cross in our flag? should we not rather wrap the flag in the cross. what good is it to say we are a Christian nation of this is not the case? by nature, the Christian is a different breed of person to the heathen. Should we as Christians then react to issues and events like the heathen do? God forbid! should our patriotism not be touched or defined by the cross? if it isn't how does it differ from the patriotism exhibited by a satanist, muslim, bhuddist etc? if we look at the nation of Israel, when they conducted their affairs as led by God, all went well, when they didn't things went downhill...fast. the way the did what they had to do was definately different. gideon led a small group of 300 against a large force, at jericho, they marched around the city singing...in both instances the Lord gave them victory.

perhaps our problem is that we are Americans, Canadians, Englishmen etc first and Christians somewhere down the line. ought we not be Christians first and then let that determine how we conduct ourselves as Americans, Canadians Englishmen etc? like sister diane i wonder how it looks before God when His children who are Christians kill eachother for country. which is a higher priority to you and me? God or country?

for us Christians our only concern if the glory of God. everything else must issue forth from that if we are to succeed and be effective for God. If we put God not first but only (seek ye first the kingdom of God ect) then everything else is taken care of. may the Lord quicken us to our sole existence for being, His glory and may He see this realization wrought in us to His glory. AMEN.

R
roaringlamb

Bro Ironman, and Sister Diane I would like to share this quote with you
"my first allegiance is not a flag, a country, or a man, my first allegiance is not to democracy or blood - it's to a king and a kingdom"
And at the risk of sounding un-patriotic, Christ does away with nationalities, there is neither Jew nor Greek, He does away with Social classes Bond or free, not even division along sex "neither male nor female, but instead He does something wonderful, He puts us in Himself as one "ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Why is it so hard to lay down Nationalistic pride and arrogance, and love our brothers and sisters.
I hope all of us are aware that ther are Iraqi Christians that have had ther lives destroyed not just by Saddam, but also our military activities.
Hopefully we are not so gullible as to swallow all that the media tells us about what is going on over there.
One other thing, there was a woman, a child, and another man also killed in the bombing. Are they expendable? Do the ends justify the means? Couldn't they just go in and take him, rather than stoop to do the very thing that he was guilty of? Just points to think about.

R
roadsign

Ironman wrote:

Should we as Christians then react to issues and events like the heathen do? God forbid! should our patriotism not be touched or defined by the cross? if it isn't how does it differ from the patriotism exhibited by a satanist, muslim, bhuddist etc?

I would like to make some comments about patriotism ( or nationalism) We should seek to know what the Bible has to say about it. First, I share this because I don’t think it is an unusual case. It is the outcome of nationalism:

Germany was reeling under the humiliation of defeat of WW1. They were saddled with unbearable debts demanded by the victors. So when Hitler rose up and brought about reforms, he was a welcome and wonderful leader. Even the Bible Colleges supported Nazism. They had a promising leader and philosophy. All were eager to do what ever was needed of them in order to restore their beloved nation from its shame and humiliation, and bring it to glory.

As time went on many saw morale compromises, but they were afraid to question for fear of ending up in a labor camp. Besides, there was a higher cause. And so the machine grew stronger. They were in it, with all their heart soul and mind – and their lives! By the time they knew it was not a good idea, it was too late.

So, I ask, where does one draw the line? How much nationalism is good? At what point does a Christian have to stand apart from it?

As Roaringlamb pointed out, in Christ there is no national identity, no Greek or Barbarian, no Canadian or American. In Christ, we are citizens of heaven – with Christ as our master. I don’t think it matters if our ruler is Ceasar, Nebudkudnezer, Bush, Stalin, or Harper.

"my first allegiance is not a flag, a country, or a man, my first allegiance is not to democracy or blood_ it's to a knig and a kingdom"

We who are true followers live according to our true identity in Christ.

But we can’t expect our rulers or the vast majority of citizens to live like this if they don’t belong to him. They are from the world and live by the principles of the kingdoms of the world.

Give to God what is God’s, and to Caesar what is Caesar.
We will give our lives and our loyalty to the one we believe will save us. I ask, is it possible to give a bit of ourselves to each? Or must it be one or the other?

If we give ourselves to God, how might we respond to “Caesar” or his servants?
Biblical examples?

Diane

T
Tears_of_joy

perhaps our problem is that we are Americans, Canadians, Englishmen etc first and Christians somewhere down the line. ought we not be Christians first and then let that determine how we conduct ourselves as Americans, Canadians Englishmen etc?

Amen!

Oh thank you brother for this.


like sister diane i wonder how it looks before God when His children who are Christians kill eachother for country. which is a higher priority to you and me? God or country?

this question still remains.

for us Christians our only concern if the glory of God. everything else must issue forth from that if we are to succeed and be effective for God. If we put God not first but only (seek ye first the kingdom of God ect) then everything else is taken care of. may the Lord quicken us to our sole existence for being, His glory and may He see this realization wrought in us to His glory. AMEN.

Yes!

I
IRONMAN

sis diane wrote:

As time went on many saw morale compromises, but they were afraid to question for fear of ending up in a labor camp. Besides, there was a higher cause. And so the machine grew stronger. They were in it, with all their heart soul and mind – and their lives! By the time they knew it was not a good idea, it was too late.

the same which happened in Germany can happen elsewhere, after all Germany was considered the epitome of civilization. so let us be wary lest such a fate befall us here in America also. i think nationalism outside of God is no good because it comes from our flesh. our sense of nationalism must be touched and defined by God is it is to be what it should be. the heathen has a deep sense of national pride, should the Christian's sense of national pride be the same? i think not.

But we can’t expect our rulers or the vast majority of citizens to live like this if they don’t belong to him. They are from the world and live by the principles of the kingdoms of the world.

as a result this puts that much more pressure for us to live in a manner pleasing to God and reflective of our relationship with Him and it's effect on us. this way God is made manifest to everyone.

Give to God what is God’s, and to Caesar what is Caesar.
We will give our lives and our loyalty to the one we believe will save us. I ask, is it possible to give a bit of ourselves to each? Or must it be one or the other?

we can't serve 2 masters so i say we give ourselves wholly to God and through that giving of ourselves to God, giving Caesar what is his is done in the way God demands. ie we will pay our taxes cheefully and not try and evade them etc. however if the government in power makes laws which are contrary to God (although God Himself has appointed it) should our allegiance to heaven not become priority in that instance?

so much to consider

C
ChrisJD

Greetings everyone,

Now then we are [b]ambassadors[/b] for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

I would like to express the thought that as ambassadors for the Kingdom of our Lord on earth, we can work through the means and agencies of the kingdoms of this world to further and promote the purposes of our own King. while I don't think anyone is suggesting we remove ourselves from public life I thought this point would be good for balance.

Something else also,

Brother Roaringlamb mentioned how some of our brothers and sisters have no doubt suffered or even had thier bodies killed during the currecnt fighting. I find some cloudy/murky areas in my own thinking on this subject, however I am willing to hold out the thought that the homegoing of God's elect children, even through war [i][b]may[/b][/i], or must even, in some respects, have a place in the providential workings of God.

Peace be with you all in Christ

I
IRONMAN

bro Chris

I would like to express the thought that as ambassadors for the Kingdom of our Lord on earth, we can work through the means and agencies of the kingdoms of this world to further and promote the purposes of our own King. while I don't think anyone is suggesting we remove ourselves from public life I thought this point would be good for balance.

i think the balance is struck when we put the Lord first, from there everything else is taken care of, then we can be good citizens of whatever couuntry we live in.

Brother Roaringlamb mentioned how some of our brothers and sisters have no doubt suffered or even had thier bodies killed during the currecnt fighting. I find some cloudy/murky areas in my own thinking on this subject, however I am willing to hold out the thought that the homegoing of God's elect children, even through war may, or must even, in some respects, have a place in the providential workings of God.

this is indeed true also

R
Rahman


Greetings all :-D ...

i'm following this thread with great interest and have only posted to say that the words of The Battle Hymn of the Republic keeps coming to mind ...

BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord, He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored; he hath loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword -- His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watchfires of a hundred circling camps, They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps; I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps -- His day is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never sound retreat, He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat; O be swift, my soul, to answer Him! Be jubilant, my feet -- Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea, With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me; As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free, While God is marching on.

Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah! His truth is marching on.


i like history a whole lot, and am always fascinated that like the words of the Battle Hymn of the Republic as we men vie back and forth with one another be it verbally, or with sticks, stones, swords, shields, ships, guns, cannons, bombs, airplanes, rockets or nuclear weapons, His truth, His plan, His will goes marching on ...

i also am fascinated by the fact that somehow many folk think that what we "will" as men is somehow apart, seperate and above His "will" ... i certainly don't claim to understand how "man's will" operates within the confines of "His will" for as of late i've really been brought to the point of understanding that i don't really understand the workings of the Father at all, but personally i believe that nothing happens apart from the will of God, that somehow every event that transpires on this planet down to the death of a sparrow and below all serves toward His ultimate purpose and goal, and therefore i see the hand of a really long-suffering God in everything ...

The problem with we humans is that we can see His hands in what we think we understand Him having His hand in, but we argue, debate, fuss and fight with one another about what we can't see Him having His hand in ... So therefore even amongst saints we have those who vote because of God, and those who don't, those who enlist in military service to their country because of God, and those who don't ... The list is as endless as our debate, but in the meanwhile whether we agree or disagree God and His plan are ever marching on ... Some would say in spite of us (as i've often said), but actually it's because of us and via us that His plan keeps on marching ... All this crap that every generation from the fall is going thru (including now terrorism and the war in Iraq) has stemmed from one man and one woman's putting humanity at enmity not only with God, but with one another ... God the Father provided His Son to bridge the enmity gap between Him and us, which if we as individuals exemplified Christ to the fullest could even bridge that gap between one another - but it's obvious that we don't, even in Christ, for tho we're suppose to be we don't operate in the accord of oneness (how many denominations do we have) ... So even we saints go back and forth in debate about matters of is God of this or of that, while the plan, and more importantly the ultimate solution (the Revelation) of God, on the backs of mankind, governments and our international conflicts go marching on! ...

The Battle Hymn was written as a stab of explanation for the "judgment" of the Civil War that came upon this nation due to it's Federal governmentally sanctioned enslavement of an entire group of people toward the financial benefit of the nation ... Thus this stanza in reference to the Union soldiers, "As He (Christ) died to make men holy, let us die to make men free" ... This seems like a pretty noble cause, and even back then the debate amongst saints as to military service or not raged on, but it certainly did not stop God's march on to the Revelaton's fulfilment because even after this came both WWI (with saints still debating) and then WWII which argubley was probably the last war America could justify as solely a fight to keep men free ... Tho this may not make a lot of sense to some, i'm one who has come to believe that God does have a plan for each of us in our lives ... i also believe that (due to OT accounts) His hand may rest harder on some than on others, as i certainly believe this to be the case with me when i look back on my life ... i didn't have to worry about enlisting in the military (tho i wanted to be an airman) because i was raised JW (they don't do war) by a father whom i loved so much that it took me to age 28 to really rebel against ... When i was 17 i sat before a Selective Service Board as a CO, and after my JW tutored answers to their questions was given an "extreme hardship" status and was defered from service ... Was this by accident or by His design for my life? ... Was i just lucky to be born into an adamant JW household or did God in fact know exactly where He wanted me to be placed? ... God knows that had it been otherwise i probably would have been drafted, sent to Vietnam and more than likely killed ... In my subsequent dealings with our Lord i believe He saved me from that, toward something He has for me to do which i still sense to this day that i've not fully come to ...

i think the problem with us is this ... History (even that which has not transpired yet) is His-story ... God knows exactly where everything and everybody is going, and whether we're saved or heathen, pacifist or warrior, or whatever, His plan rides atop all that we do or don't do, and both facilitates His ultimate plan as time goes marching on ... Now in the midst of entertaining the mind-boggling brevity of the will/plan of God ask yourself what is my-story (which is the my-stery) in His-story, for i totally believe finding this out should be the ultimate quest of every Christians ...

My bottom line is to know His ultimate purpose for my life, tho how He gets me there i haven't the slightest idea, but in the meanwhile i do what only any of us can do and that's to continue to walk in the faith place we're all presently at ... We can do no more or less ... My final comments have to do only with what many saints call the grey areas like voting and military service ... i believe that if ones faith presently tells them to vote, or not to vote, then one should follow their faith ... i believe that if one's faith tells them to serve militarily for their country, or not, then one should follow their faith ... i'm a firm believer in the scripture that says "whatsoever is not of faith in sin", and that all that we do, or don't do, should be because of God ...

As during the time of the Civil War i believe America (mainly because the salt has lost its savor) is at the onset of His judgment/correction for continuing down the broad and spacious ... And i thank God that no matter what we think, don't think, agree or dis-agree on, His plan just keeps on marching on till His will is done on earth as it already is in heaven ...

Men have a tendency to think that our wars have all to do with us but i think there's more than meets the eye with this verse of The Battle Hymn ...

"He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored; He hath loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword "

We all know the OT history of how God uses nation against nation, in Ezek. 38 He speaks of putting hooks in the jaws of Magog to lead them as He wants, and in the Revelation it says He gathers the nations to the place of Har-meggedon ... What is our puny "self-will" in comparrison to His "divine-will"? ...

This is a break down to the stanzas of The Battle Hymn, some may find this interesting ...

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1188.cfm

All glory, praise and honor to the Alpha and Omega, our only wise and true God ... Amen

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