Intresting Experience this last saturday!!

Whoa,Indeed.That was mighty courageous of you Greg. To go see for yourself all that we have been hearing about.Frankly, I didn't know this was still going on there, but I guess that I am sadly not surprised.After reading all that you wrote, I can only say that it grieves me as well....I pray that the Lord will use this site in such a way as to bring Glory to Himself. The preaching here NEEDS to be heard. I just wrote out a rather long post to reply to the ongoing Bonnke discussion and had been hesitating whether to post it or not.I think I will now.From the nominal, comfortable, Sunday going only church to the whacky manisfistations, "itching ears",blasphemy......this just makes me sick.Where is the narrow road?I believe it is here, in these great men of God of the past and thankfully for the few that are still faithful.I have to agree with Mr. Ravenhill, about being accused of taking all this to seriously. So be it. Let us be labled, legalist, fundementalist, "Old fashioned", "living in the dark ages" whatever. Even if the labels are misapplied. It's not to men we have to give an accounting to anyway.I am praying for you Brother._/crsschk\\_

Quote:"I have to agree with Mr. Ravenhill, about being accused of taking all this to seriously. So be it. Let us be labled, legalist, fundementalist, "Old fashioned", "living in the dark ages" whatever. Even if the labels are misapplied. It's not to men we have to give an accounting to anyway."Amen! This is easy to say, but as my mother said to me this evening, "too many of us are afraid to be disliked." I mean, it's natural that we want everyone to think we are nice, open minded people... but the fact is, if we desire to be in Christ, we will NOT be liked by those who do not LIKE Christ!"He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him." Isaiah 53:3 THIS is the Jesus that we have been called to follow after. "The one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked." 1 John 2:6Do we really want revival? Do we really want to pay the price?"They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised." Hebrews 11:37-39 "Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets." Luke 6:22-23 The problem is, a lot of us have been brought up in churches, schools or homes that teach that we are to be happy and liked, and "nice" and open and and and... but Jesus said:"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way." Luke 6:26 I'm NOT saying that we go around with grumpy "woe is me" faces. And I'm NOT saying we throw ourselves into places of suffering and mistreatment. I'm only saying that we all need to accept the fact that we aren't always going to be accepted by those, even in the professing church. I know how painful this is, trust me... but it's something we have to accept. If we don't, we will find ourselves giving into things little by little and before we know it we will be just outside the will of God. Hopefully you get my point.No offense to Greg, but I don't think it is neccesary for any of us to "try out" or be "open minded" about these ministries... below is something I typed on another post a while ago:I think it's in Another Gospel or The Redeemer is Returning to Zion where David Wilkerson says concerning false teachers: "They may start out right but they are TRANSFORMED by the gospel they are preaching." This is so true! May God help us if we ever begin to nose around doctrines that are not from His heart!! As Carter Conlon says in "Run For Your Life," "CURIOSITY KILLED THE CAT!!" These ministries, even though they are not truth, are very, very powerful. "And Jesus answered and said to them, "SEE TO IT that no one misleads you...For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance." Matthew 24:1, 24-25 "BEWARE of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Matthew 7:15 NONE OF US ARE ABOVE FALLING... and no matter how much knowledge we have, if we give the flesh opportunity, we might slip!"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and MAKE NO PROVISION FOR THE FLESH in regard to its lusts." Romans 13:14 "I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that YOU CANNOT TOLERATE EVIL MEN, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false." Revelation 2:2 "From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way." Psalms 119:104 My heart has been so grieved over these things lately..Don't be discouraged, y'all! He is worthy to be praised! Following after and seeking TRUTH (which is the only thing can possibly unify anyway) will be worth it in the end! Like Len Ravenhill says, I don't think God is going to tell us when we get to heaven that we were too serious about this Gospel here on earth."For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels." Luke 9:26 "For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart." Hebrews 12:3 Blessings in Christ!--Maria

No offense to Greg, but I don't think it is neccesary for any of us to "try out" or be "open minded" about these ministries.Hmmm..don't think that is really the case here.Will have to let Greg answer for that. It seems to me that someone who is right there and can give a first hand account can only help us all. I think that you can still leave your presupositions at the door without letting your guard down, "open minded" dosen't necessarily have to be "empty minded".

Quote:"Hmmm..don't think that is really the case here."My point is that it's dangerous. These ministries are powerful and it is normally not in one's best interest to subject themself to this -- I was not trying to attack Greg or anything because I know where he stands and I pretty much agree with him. But the point remains we should take Paul's advice and "flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness." 1 Timothy 6:11 Besides, I thought Greg said on another post that he had already seen video footage?? Maybe I'm wrong about this. Quote:"open minded" dosen't necessarily have to be "empty minded".While you are right, my point still remains. No matter how much knowledge we have, we are not above falling... I'm just saying that I don't recommend everyone doing that. Greg heads this site and that's fine if he wanted to do that, to share his insight with all - but it would probably not be a good thing for everyone to do this. Besides, there is plenty of material out there from people who have been in these ministries - Many, like Greg have gone and reported first hand what they have seen - but it makes no difference to most. Most hold to "well that was his opinion..." and "everyone should check it out for themselves." If it's on video, on internet and everywhere else what is going on, there is no reason for all of us to go and subject ourselves to that. I've had people get on me for mentioning Benny Hinn as a false prophet because I have never been to a crusade -- but I don't NEED to go to a crusade because I have watched video footage of him blaspheming God. To go would be unwise in this case.Please read what I wrote in context. I do not think I have all the answers or anything... just sharing my thoughts.--MariaP.S. Maybe it would be best not to emphasize that one statement where I mentioned Greg - what I wrote was not directed to him personally.

Looking back at it, probably not the best choice of words. Meant nothing by it....There are some disadvantages to communicating through these forums sometimes because of the delayed response, unlike a normal conversation, where there is give and take.I could not agree with you more about the dangers, about the fact that you don't have to be present to know that these things are true. What you stated about Benny Hinn for instance.I have both been to his crusades and to a "teaching conference" as well. At that time I was a babe in my walk, and when I first started hearing opposing arguments against him, my intial reaction was "How dare they!, Look at all the people being healed and saved because of his ministry", I pretty much had bought into the whole "touch not the annoited of the Lord". But as I began to delve into it more, I realized I had to have an open mind towards why there was so many voices crying out against what he was teaching and saying. What was THERE motive? Was it personal? Was it out of concern? Again, I was young in my walk then, so at the same time it was impressed on me that I need to test EVERYTHING by the scriptures. I can still remember the day, with tears in my eyes, standing at my door as my wife came in and telling her we had been duped, mislead, that most of these teachers we had been following were filling us with false doctrine. I had been telling her prior to this that I had some concerns and her reaction was about the same,"what do they know?" So, I was concerned about her response, fortunately she was open to what I had discovered. It's not an easy thing to come to a realization that you have been following a lie.You feel stupid, gullible,angry.You begin to think, "who can you trust?"So, is it dangerous? Absolutely.I guess what I was trying to get at earlier is, when you have "been there, done that" that it carries a lot more weight than just, as you said "well, thats just your opinion"....No! That's not my opinion, that's my experience!In one sense, I guess we are both right. God Bless you for your strong stand against false teaching! It needs to be said, without a doubt.I feel empathy for those who are being mislead, because I have been there, I pray that their eyes may be opened as mine where.Lastly, towards the end of the original post here, there is a strong rebuke! One that I am sure we would both agree on."For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain."......."Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth." Titus 1:10,13_/crsschk\\_

Thanks Greg,Your response is edifying and what we all have come to expect from you, O Great Webmaster!(JUST KIDDING!) (I think that was more for me, I need to lighten up a little)No, that dosen't change the seriousness of the issues whatsoever....Benny Hinn.....My experience obviously was quite different. As I was transitioning out of all that stuff and listening to Christian radio, I remember a lot of confusion. One of the things that Benny used to teach was about the will of God. How we should never pray "if it be thy will" because we should KNOW what His will is. Needless to say, that brought up all kinds of contradictions with more than a few scriptures...(Big red flag!)From experience: When we attended the teaching conference in L.A. At one point, kind of out of the blue he started saying "The Holy Spirit is here! The Holy Spirit is here! Everybody line up against the walls, come on everybody" I can remember thinking "this is kind of weird" So, somewhat reluctantly we lined up and then they had us face the walls, they had everybody move towards the front a few at a time to receive the "annointing"(by the way I have come to loathe that word, because of the abuses, not the original meaning)When I got there it was Rex Humbard (spelling?) who put his hand on my forehead, with the "catchers" behind me, I don't recall what he said, but I thought "this is a man of God, what an honor to be receiving this" so with a slight shove I was expecting to be "slain in the Spirit" and felt ....nothing, not a single thing, but not to be embarrassed or thought not "spiritual" I kind of just went along with it and let them set me on the ground. It left me with an impression, an impression that something wasn't quite right, another red flag. The other thing I remember was the whole money issue. About people who God was telling him could give $1,000 dollars each, a certain number of people, I don't recall how many.Talk about extortion, at the time I thought, well "He is a man of God, so this must be from the Lord" even though I had more doubts rising up.There was a touching moment though, when in the midst of all this money raising,a young guy came up and offered up his gold watch to Benny, with tears in his eyes, then a few people came up to offer this poor guy their watches to him. Touching, in that this guy was obviously giving from his heart. Looking back on it, it's grieviousbecause of the methods he used to draw peoples money from them.More could be said and it gets old after awhile.But this is some of my experience._/crsschk\\_

Ok. First, I give you credit for making the trip out there. But if you simply went there and observed it would be no wonder that your state now is worse than the first. My encouragement/challenge was not to simply go and observe with an open mind, though that's a start. they key to the whole thing is loving the actual people and being open minded and humble enough to engage with them before or after in conversation and/or maybe prayer. Quote:"The first thing I noticed when I can in was two guys at the front of the church before the service, one person was waving his arms up and down and pointing upwards, and the other person was infront of him hopping back and forth and then once in awhile launching himself higher with his arms and letting out a yell. Thats weird and I didnt see how it had anything to do with God." First, what's wrong with weird? There is tons of "weird" stuff in the BIble. I don't feel the need to reference anything because it's all over the place. It seems like you didn't go with such an open mind after all. It seems you were asking "why" instead of "why not?" Your initial thoughts were "guilty until proven innocent" instead of "innocent until proven guilty." that's not just, that's not fair, and that's not loving. and besides, that wasn't even part of the "service." have you never jumped around and yelled? have you never been weird? why coudln't you assume that they were seeing a vision or just worshipping God? Did you ever ask them about it? Quote:"So at this point I am thinking this is way to non-biblical, non-christian, what in the heck is going on here! lol"What is unbiblical about soaking in the presence of the Lord? It's just sounds to me like different terminology for "waiting" or "meditating" or just "being" in His presence? I would really appreciate some Scripture that would contradict this type of thing. Quote:"and personally I can talk alot more about what else happened but it just gets worse and it really grieves my heart and Gods. This so called "revival" is a mockery of the word and also of God. Its so plain to disern it."I dare you to prove any of this. Your opinions/intuitions/feelings do not constitute proof. You may think it's implied that these things are only your opinion but you are stateing them as fact. i suppose you may, if you dare, say that the movement is a mockery of God (at least the way you know HIm) and that is not so easy to prove or disprove. but where we can be objective about this is when you say it's a mockery of His word. Please, if you have proof for this, espeicially from your experience there, bring it forth. Quote:"Todd I respect you and others that are in agreement or are more openminded to the things that are happening in Christianity. But I have to tell you and warn you as a brother in Christ that you have to get yourself away from these false teachers and false manifestations (they are not from God). "I appreciate your acknowledgment of respecting me, but is it only in word? DO you respect me enough to take seriously what i say? to be fair and up front with me? why, aside from your feelings and convictions, are you sure enough that all of the teachers and manifestations are false that you can make such bold claims? Quote:"I dont want to argue about it, its just what I feel God has shown me by his SPIRIT that dwells in me and the plain counsel of God's WORD. Its doctrines of demons and its false."Well I suppose you don't have to "argue" about this anymore. But you brought it back up again and made some extrememly bold cliams with little backup. So i felt it necessary to express myself as well. the ball is in your court and if you want to leave it alone that's your decision. again, as far as the "plain" counsel of God's word, make it plain for me to see. as to the rest, very bold. if you did stay around and ask questions but just didn't mention it i think it would be good to elaborate on that. i am very interested to hear their defense of your accusations. have you given them a chance? I have listened to both of those messages.

Todd,if i may, i wish to relate something of my own experience. My experience is not of the church at Torrento, but there are enough similarities for me to consider that this may be relevant enough to deserve your consideration.First a context, for the scriptures talking about false manifestations, in particular 2 Thessalonians 2 ; 2 Timothy 4 and the other that in particular, comes to mind is in Revelations 13:13-14.the words false / counterfeit / lying.There is within this, an implication that I find is important- especially in dealing with this particular issue.That the signs themselves, the manifestations are real, but that as profiting the believer, they do nothing. John 6:63- the flesh counts for nothing, but what is of Spirit imparts life. And that life is the life of God. The words of Jesus, are Spirit, being of God. And Jesus is the way the truth the life, so His words are HIM, they give true life.We are transformed, as we behold our Lord Jesus- to behold to look at intently, to perceive increasingly clearly, to understand, to see.If you look up the word ' know', in a Vines dictionary, there are so many layers and shades of meaning- i hope that i do not express myself badly by saying that, it is more about the difference between the mental ascribing to a form, kinda like a one dimensional image, and the transformational growth, that comes from a true change that comes from deep within.10 years ago.My experience was of power that touched my body, and definitly made me feel good. But there was this question in the back of my mind that would not go away. The experience was so real, and i soaked in the presence of the spirit for hours at a time.But i wondered, why, with so much of God did i not change? Surely if the manifest presence of God was surrounding me and filling me, if i stayed in that presence for so long that afterwards, i could not walk but only stagger- and sometimes barely crawl- i was so full with God, why didn't i change?Jesus said to the pharisees 'stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgement! [John 7:24] , and you judge by human standards, I judge no-one, but if i do judge, My decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father. [John 8:14-17].So obviously i cannot judge anything by the appearance of it either way. It seems to be only one Judge and that God, since He made all it is according to Him after all....The Spirit of truth cannot dwell in a lie.A lie is a nothing, is nothing. It is empty and void, powerless and worthless. It is death, empty of the life that dwells only in the Spirit of truth.It in itself is the opposite of God who is Truth, and opposing God, by its appearance, that deceives -the deceiving is the taking away the truth of life, and the life that is given by the Spirit of truth, is also taken away.Left then with an image [ the sense and meaning of O.T.idol] that seems good, but is not what it seems.The appearance of a thing does not equal the sum of its parts.The image does not equal the essence of a thing, and the essential thing to know, is essentially the of Spirit thing.My experience of God, in the last three years, has been, so dramatically different. Another quote from John - that we are given the Spirit of truth, who leads us into all truth.My experience is of, The God who loves me enough to challenge me ruthlessly, in the presence of Him, there is little place for my former religion of ....'all for me, all for mebut i'll say its all You Lord,' -and no place but for the pain of real change. That time 10 years ago, was lying signs and wonders, i knew nothing of God, and i was utterly deceived as to what was God, it was nothing, no-matter how dramatic, the healings, the manifestations, my heart was still unbroken and desperately wicked- so those manifestations affirmed my state, i thought that i was o.k. because of the signs.I do not know, if it was because they [the signs and wonders themselves] were false, or if it was because the falseness was entirely of me. See that is the thing, that being false myself, i simply could not receive the truth.I know i was false, so safely that is all i can know.The point to all of this? Well when it comes down to it, God can make a Paul out of Saul, and only He knows, in this what is true, and what is a lie and most importantly Todd, this question is for you.Is there any change? Please realise in this i am not in any way saying that you are as i was, but rather - does these things bring change.....?This is my continuing question, i do not ask you as such, but rather pass it to you, and pray for the grace given to me- of a 1000watt light, from which there is no hiding that if you need to ask this question too, that God might trully honour you.So that we may know Him, that we might be granted the spirit of revelation of truth, that in truth He we can behold.With eyes unveiled and hearts afire, we in ever increasing measure may perceive in Spirit and truth, Jesus Christ our Lord.God bless JOBEE :-D

JObee, As I mentioned in the welcome section, I greatly appreciate your spirit of humility. I also appreciate and respect that you are speaking from first-hand experience. Quote:"I do not know, if it was because they [the signs and wonders themselves] were false, or if it was because the falseness was entirely of me. See that is the thing, that being false myself, i simply could not receive the truth.I know i was false, so safely that is all i can know."I think this is a very fair statment. but then how do say right before that "That time 10 years ago, was lying signs and wonders..."?It seems that underlying this is some seemingly false assumptions that I would like to address.1. That the manifest presence of God will automatically change you and sanctify you. I think this is nothing more than an assumption. God never "forces" us to change. We make that choice, it's not automatic. Right? It seems to me very reasonable that God might just want to bless His children in certain ways simply becasue He loves them. Who says His intention has to be to change us? He loves us just as we are. I would think that such an experience would change a man, but it's not a given. Is there a verse that says, "The manifest presence of God will profit you"? I think God is pouring out His Spirit on all flesh. Spirit on flesh. There's flesh involved. 2. That you have to be a certain type of Christian for God to bless you in whatever way He may choose to. That's why the "I felt this power but it couldn't have been God because I was so screwed up" view doesn't seem to hold to me. God is all-loving and loves to love people if they will let Him and recieve it. Right? You said:"That time 10 years ago, was lying signs and wonders, i knew nothing of God, and i was utterly deceived as to what was God, it was nothing, no-matter how dramatic, the healings, the manifestations, my heart was still unbroken and desperately wicked- so those manifestations affirmed my state, i thought that i was o.k. because of the signs."This seems to be faulty logic as I described above. It seems to me that it was simply your mistake to assume that you were ok because you were experiencing these things. It also goes to show that these things are not to be the focus, only a natural by-product of God working, which is often supernatural. It is man's mistake to focus too much on these things. The Bible seems to clearly show that witnessing these things says nothing about you. ANyone can witness them and still be messed up. The Pharisees saw all kinds of sings and wonders, but they were unchanged by it. In fact, it seems to me that it made them worse to witness these things because they became more hard-hearted. ANd I think this is what often happens today. 3. It is a rare thing for God to show signs and wonders so wherever it happens it must have a certain significance that we can understand. First of all, while it may seem rare or unique to us today, it wasn't that way in the New Testament. It was the norm. The normal Christian life. And I think it's becoming more normal and common amongst Christians all the time. As far as our understanding the reasons and significance for it: God's ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. We don't have to understand any of it, and a lot of the time we probably won't. 4. The vessels God uses to show forth His signs and wonders must be "special" Christians. I can't exactly word this the way I want to but I think I am expressing the spirit of this conception. That if God is using a man to heal others or if they are performing other signs and wonders, then that man must be exceptional in some way for God to be using him. Beyond reproach. But I see no evidence for this scripturally. Peter walked on water and cast when he was still very messed up and I think it was later that Jesus rebuked him saying, "Get away from me Satan." Yes, the same man who walked on water and cast out demons got called Satan by Jesus. Right? In Luke 9 Jesus gives the disciples power and authority over all the demons, and to heal diseases. But if you continue to read, in the same chapter Jesus rebukes them for their unbelief and they make other mistakes. Esp. check out verse 41 ("Jesus said, 'O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and put up with you?..."). Then in verses 46 and following they are arguing about who's the greatest. Then verses 49 and 50 are ones that desperately need to be read and meditated upon today. "And John answered and said, 'Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to hinder him because he does not follow along with us.' But Jesus said to him, 'Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you (or 'on your side')." Mark records the instance in this way, "John said to Him, 'Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to hinder him because he was not following us.' But Jesus said, 'Do not hinder him, for there is no one who shall perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us." (Mark 9:38-40)I think all Christians have the ability and the right to walk in signs and wonders if we would only have faith. Though God is sovereign in His choosing.Also, if there's a counterfeit than there's the real thing. If all that's going on is counterfeit (and I believe some of it may be) then where's the real thing? QUote:"My experience of God, in the last three years, has been, so dramatically different. Another quote from John - that we are given the Spirit of truth, who leads us into all truth.My experience is of, The God who loves me enough to challenge me ruthlessly, in the presence of Him, there is little place for my former religion of ....'all for me, all for mebut i'll say its all You Lord,' -and no place but for the pain of real change."It truly gives me great joy to know that you have matured so in the past 3 years. Now it seems you are experiencing different aspects of God's love, but it's only my humble opinion that you might have been experiencing other aspects before. QUote:"most importantly Todd, this question is for you.Is there any change?"Thank you for what I perceive to be your true concern for me. This might surprise you, but I have actually not experienced God in a way like you described. I have experienced Him in other ways, but not like that, hours soaking in His manifest presence. Though I hope to. And the ways I have experienced God do chance me, but they don't force me to change. It's always up to me how I will respond. It has been a huge blessing in the last month to realize His overwhelming love for me despite my mess-up's. I have really been experiencing how it's His kindness that leads to repentance. Quote:"So that we may know Him, that we might be granted the spirit of revelation of truth, that in truth He we can behold.With eyes unveiled and hearts afire, we in ever increasing measure may perceive in Spirit and truth, Jesus Christ our Lord."Amen. May this be so.

todd, just some short answers. The long answer- well it is long.'the lying signs and wonders thing'.- I can understand the confusion, it would sound absolutely contridictary, if I was talking in a general sense. I was just talking about me. So then it makes sense. It was a lie, [in that in me it was], but the thing that I am sure of -is the fault that lay with me. The rest, being anyone else, I honestly am not sure.And now the points.1. Yes I think that the same breath of life, that carried on it the Words of God and brought our entire world into being, by that same Spirit, that raised Jesus from the dead, In the presence of the Holy Spirit, of our Holy Lord-Yes!If it is indeed the MANIFEST PRESENCE of God -[ wow,] that to be in that presence is to change....but somehow automatically- just dosn't seem to fit.It sounds like car, kinda mechanical. Which is nothing like the amazing God we serve. Whose creativity, really blows my mind. Even on one tree, every leaf is absolutely individual- on only one tree there could easily be at least 100s of leaves, each one after its kind, and utterly unique.So yes- not automatically though.2. Yes- and that certain type, is called a real one. You know the tares and wheat thing.As for the rest, well every human being that has existed in the entire history of the Human race, has been blessed with the greatest opportunity possible- in that God has given them life, and that life their opportunity to know Him. There is no blessing that can compare with that.2a. yes- I did assume that because I was part of the experience of this thing, that I was o.k. Is that faulty logic? Absolutely.3. I don't think that these things are rare.We live in a world where obviously demonic manifestations, of definite immediate life benefit, are so common, that to strip this world of them- might even leave it naked? That is a interesting thought.I do not at all think that these things are rare.I am priveliged enough to have watched first hand, a genuine medically documented miracle. Cancer, advanced.Because of my church background I am familar with the various workings of all the spiritual gifts, and have seen manifestations of all different types.4. what does 'special' mean. When I was a teen, to be 'special'- was actually quite an insult. [As my 7yr old would say DAAA mum- you know the homar thing]. to be special meant, that you were an absolute dawk. I hope that dawk dosn't mean anything more where you are.. than well, -idiot I guess.As for special- well God chooses the weak and foolish things of the world, the things that are not....so that no flesh may glory in His presence.I'm not special, except for one reason, and that reason is the only reason that counts. I'm special, being honoured beyond words, in that God has chosen me to pour His love out on.But that makes us all special dosn't it.So yes, i will have the ability, by the grace given by God to receive and so do, all that He has prepared for me to do.4a.The real thing is there. Because it is God Who gives, there is not one who can according to place in history, geographical location, or some kind of superstar sensation- have any advantage. God is the giver. And as He is entirely Just, in that there is great hope and expectancy of good, great good from Him who Is absolutely Good.4b.Thank-you for your humble opinion. You are being much kinder than I deserve, but it is not the truth.It is important that this is absolutely clear.What I have received from God, I would lose by not being truthful, - the Spirit of truth cannot dwell in a lie. To make me better, I have to then make Him lesser, so I stay a scoundrel I'm afraid.One of my most amazing and precious realisations of the wonder and beauty of God, came at a time where, in struggling I had once again messed up; utterly failed in fact.In that moment of time, it was revealed to me in such powerful way, in the understanding He showed me, how much I was loved. That changed my life.God Bless JoBee :-D

arn't i going to be everyone's favourite person now?
luke 11:9
9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

we pray for revival, we get revival, we don't always get what we expected revival to be.
say if you wrote up a list of how you think the Holy Spirit should manifest. how different would it be from God's list?

we also have to see the ministries that came out of TACF and the ministries related to it. an excellent example would be Rolland and Heidi baker's iris ministries. would the devil start 1000s of churches, preach the gospel, get people saved, raise the dead, heal the sick, multiply food as Jesus did?

Rob Rufus says "oh we have such a small God that clearly all these manifestations have to be the devil, because the devil is so big and God so small. no, friends!"

January 20 1995 toronto airport church was kicked off the vineyard team. the leader of vineyard said he believed that God wan't calling him to lead churches like toronto airport.
they've 'kissed and made' up since then though.

mark 9:38

38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."

39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

mark 3:20

20Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[c]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."

23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

perhaps we should be a little cautious when speaking against Christ's bride.

Zac Poonen has a sermon on avoiding deception. The main point is watch how they handle the money - the remainder of their doctrine may be spot on!

Having been in and out of a handful of churches of different types and 'temperatures', I agree with him. It is the first thing I checkout when evaluating a ministry. If they mishandle money, they will definitely mishandle spiritual things, [b]even if the gifts are genuinely from God![/b]. If I can't trust someone with my wallet, how can I ever trust them with the smallest opening to my spirit?

I don't know the TACF, but selling 'soaking kits' smacks of shameless commercialism. If a ministry is genuinely concerned with God's honour and the salvation of souls, their last concern should be how many pennies are left in someone's pocket and how to get to them. If people really 'need' this stuff to 'find God', why not give it to them? Did Jesus or the apostles ever sell 'soaking kits'? On the contrary, he broke the bread and fed five thousand. Isn't another man's relationship with God worth more than earning a quid?

I believe God's gifts are for today, and that we need them more than ever. But before God gives them to us, we need to find and hold onto thorough repentance. We also need a deep respect for the fact that the gifts of God are holy and priceless, and that they should only be used with the utmost respect for God's purpose. If not, they will become razor blades in the hand of a baby.

Under no circumstances should God's gifts be used as entertaining party tricks, nor to catch a quick buck.

[color=000099]
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, [b]Thy money perish with thee[/b], because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
[/color]

If Simone the sorcerer was cursed for trying to buy the gifts of God as a new believer, how much more damnable is it to try to sell them as an 'experienced' leader?

PassingThru

Another scripture on mixing God's power and financial interest :-

[color=000099]
2Ki 5:26 And he said unto him, Went not mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from, his chariot to meet thee? [b]Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and maidservants?[/b]
2Ki 5:27 [b]The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed forever[/b]. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow.
[/color]

It's sobering to think that if Gehazi lineage hasn't been broken, he still has descendants suffering today because of his greed.

It's interesting that both examples of mixing God's power with greed invoked a curse.

The biblical account regarding the prophet Balaam probably adds to the list.

PassingThru

what about the 1000s of people saved because of TACF? not mentioning the ministries that came out of there and the people they got saved.
people healed and their lives changed. read 'Jesus and beelzebub'.
satan does not permanently heal people and change them to lead Christ-centred lives.
TACF arn't aginst us, which means they're for us. let's get back to the scriptures. even micah in the OT (read the book) intersceeds for God, it's much more dramatic than our dog barking TACF friends.

also, God is the most passionate being in the universe, he'll do anything for us to love him. He want us to love him, he loves us in return.

Again it wasn't forced or unnatural, but with a sense of great joy and euphoria. In fact (and mark this) it was the nearest thing to the feeling I'd had when first born again. The sense of blessing was tremendous.

Just a note, this is a almost 4 year old posting.

stantheman wrote:
what about the 1000s of people saved because of TACF? not mentioning the ministries that came out of there and the people they got saved.
people healed and their lives changed. read 'Jesus and beelzebub'.
satan does not permanently heal people and change them to lead Christ-centred lives.
TACF arn't aginst us, which means they're for us. let's get back to the scriptures. even micah in the OT (read the book) intersceeds for God, it's much more dramatic than our dog barking TACF friends.

Stan,

Having been one that was not only involved, but also a strong advocate and promoter of such phenomena, I feel I can speak into this, with a degree of unbias. I had a conversation with a Muslim on the street, one day, and he pointed to the changed lives, as evidence of the truth of his religion. Having met and spoken to many devout atheists (by that, I mean dedicated to the "belief in disbelief"), who attribute the beginning of their moral integrity to the day that shed aside their "superstitious belief in God" [[i]sic[/i]], and accepted the fact that they are alone in the universe.

There are countless people, tonight, who have "joy in their lives" as the result of substance abuse. And their are many broken lives as a result of the euphoria of "Toronto" style Christianity. I know MANY personally, who are now not only dubious of the phenomena, but God Himself. They woke up one day, realising that they were caught up in the momentum of what was going on around them, and then question everything else as well.

May I suggest the following audio, and articles for consideration:
Art Katz -
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3324]Holiness or Blessing[/url] (Audio)
[url=http://www.benisrael.org/site_content/writings/articles/articles_artkatz/Holiness_or_Blessing.htm]Holiness or Blessing[/url] (Text)
[url=http://www.benisrael.org/site_content/writings/articles/articles_artkatz/Lying_Signs_and_Wonders.htm]Lying Signs and Wonders[/url] (Text)

J Jacob Prasch -
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=11890]Midrash - First and Second Born[/url] (Audio)
[url=http://ditc.podomatic.com/enclosure/2006-04-02T15_13_31-07_00.mp3]The Spirit Of Truth And The Spirit Of Error[/url] (Audio) - Note: You might recognise the reference to fellow South Australian, Andrew Evans (unnamed), as the former AoG chairman.
[url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/charismatic_laughter.htm]Charismatic Laughter (Part 1 of 2)[/url] (Text)
[url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/charismatic_laughter_part_2.htm]Charismatic Laughter (Part 2 of 2)[/url] (Text)

Paul Gowdy (Former Toronto Vineyard Pastor) -
[url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/toronto_deception.htm]The Toronto Deception[/url] (Text)

The underlying issue to be raised is that John exhorts us to "test the spirits, to see if they are of God", while "Toronto Blessing" proponents say "Don't question it, just go with it." You can't have it both ways.

If you think this is about "God can move however He wants", then consider that all this has occurred as the result of people "seeking a sign" (which Jesus said that a "wicked and perverse generation" will do). Brownsville AoG's pastor, John Kilpatrick, actually walked into his church, and left the keys on the pulpit, saying something to the affect of "God, if you don't send revival, I quit." The following Sunday, after Steve Hill talked the frustrated pastor into letting him preach on Fathers Day's morning service (which was an unheard of thing, for Kilpatrick), 'revival'[[i]sic[/i]] broke out. Seems to be that Kilpatrick wasn't content with God doing things how He was doing it. After all, Sunday night prayer meetings, for years on end, should equal "something" happening.

I'm not asking you to agree with everything that is being offered here, only that you consider these guys words, weighing them in the light of Scripture.

i know of non-toronto related pastors that arn't pastors anymore, some don't even go to church anymore.
http://www.irismin.org/

Rolland and Heidi Baker regularly speak at toronto. they oversee over 6000 churches and take care of over 3000 children. their site is outdated
http://www.irismin.org/p/background.php

Rolland speaks of a time when he was younger and went to toronto for a month. revival till early morning, they wake up late the next day, only to just line up at toronto. He says he didn't get into one theological argument over the whole time.

If TACF is demonic, then http://ibethel.org/ is also. i God is doing creative miracles there all the time.
now i have a sermon for you:
http://www.ibethelmedia.org/sotw/force.php?file=ThePowerisintheMessage24kbps.mp3&id=60

while i listen to the ones you posted, please listen to this one :)

stantheman wrote:
while i listen to the ones you posted, please listen to this one :)

Deal :-)

stantheman wrote:
If TACF is demonic, then http://ibethel.org/ is also. i God is doing creative miracles there all the time.

I want you to notice that I have been careful not to use the word "demonic" for three reasons:
1) Peoples understanding of demonic tends to imply a kind extreme overt evil that is directly influenced by "Satan & Co".
2) Demonic possession, etc is a serious thing, not to be pinned onto everything that is disagreed about.
3) It could be possible that it is something that is sent "from God", but that God is "not in it" (as the fire and the earthquake that God sent to Elijah, before speaking with His "soft still voice").

Apart from this, I am open to to the possibility of being wrong, however I believe that God will honour my zeal in desiring to seperate the "holy from profane", being cause of something which is "deeply sensual", as possibly being "woldly and carnal". I for one do not dictate how He choses to move, whether or not it appears that He is doing nothing, I am keenly aware that He is at work.

stantheman wrote:
i know of non-toronto related pastors that arn't pastors anymore, some don't even go to church anymore.
http://www.irismin.org/

I think you missed my point. I do not judge a work of God based on its temporal success/failure (I don't suppose you have heard Paris Reidhead's [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/url] yet?), I was merely using your standard of measure to show it's irrelevance. This is one of the problems with the "church", particularly here in Australia, it is so caught up on success, that it ignores failure. Have you ever noticed that the Bible leaves nothing out? It graphically includes successes and failures of these men of God, and at times calling these "failures" righteous, of men after God's own heart? It is integrity from woe to go, and God requires that His church be likewise.

In light of this, when was the last time you saw a pastor get up and say, "I need to apologise. Last week we prayed for Sister Betty and she testified that she was healed, however, once the euphoria of the moment wore off, she realised that she was mistaken."? I for one have never, however in spite of this, there is testimony after testimony of "healings", and one must wonder how many of them are "Sister Betty" going up again in hope that this time is for real? Figures and statistics shouldn't impress us, nor should they be the basis of our endorsement. Otherwise we should cast aside AW Tozer, Paris Reidhead, Art Katz, Keith Daniel, to name but a few.

On top of that, your standards of measuring success can be applied to cults and false religions. Christianity isn't the fastest growing religion in the world, Islam is. Does that make it true? Of course not. Wiccans see "healings" regularly. Does that mean we should all become witches? To quote Leonard Ravenhill, "Every good Mormon speaks in tongues." If signs and wonders are the basis of recognition, then we are better forget about John the Baptist, Martin Luther, John Wesley, George Whitfield, Johnathan Edwards, Charles Finney, and Charles Spurgeon.

Note that I am in no way a cessationist. I have seen true healings first hand, however I have also seen many false ones. I can point you to close personal friends, who ascribed to what i would consider to be proper orthodoxy, that have fallen away. All that proves is that we need to be careful, lest we think we stand. The thing is, I am not pointing to my, or others success as the basis of endorsement. In fact, I am but the basest of men, speaking out of concern.

well, if something is not from God, and it's supernatural, chances are it's demonic.
>>3
Yes but i bet God speaks to people at toronto directly, not just through these earthquakes of falling over etc.

LittleGift says that it didn't feel right.
I don't think it felt right to a lot of people in the bible.
disciples when Jesus was crucified (they wern't for it at any stage)
Acts 2 when the disciples got filled with the spirit. A lot of people didn't think that was right.
Or when i was introduced to unconditional grace that is lavished on us through the blood of Jesus. I'm still getting my head around that.
God doesn't have to feel right, if he felt right to the world, the world would all be christians. Or perception on what feels right is based on our earthly expereince.

by the way, i like your attitude, he who seeks the dorr will be open. I'm also seeking with you, bro. You know, in dubai some unsaved people say to themselves "I just want to know the truth about God". I kid you not, people show up to them and say "I can take you to a place where you can find out about Jesus". they take them to churches, and they dissapear. the people never see them again. they're angels taking people to churches!

Just a note, this is a almost 4 year old posting.

OH! Does that mean we have to start a new one???

No dear sister, just a mention that's all.

stantheman wrote:
well, if something is not from God, and it's supernatural, chances are it's demonic.

>>3
Yes but i bet God speaks to people at Toronto directly, not just through these earthquakes of falling over etc.

[b]11[/b] And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the [b]LORD passed by[/b], and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks [b]before the LORD[/b]; [i]but[/i] the [b]LORD [i]was[/i] not in the wind[/b]: and after the wind an earthquake; [i]but[/i] the [b]LORD was not in the earthquake[/b]:
[b]12[/b] And after the earthquake a fire; [i]but[/i] the [b]LORD [i]was[/i] not in the fire[/b]: and after the fire a still small voice.
[b]13[/b] And it was [i]so[/i], [b]when Elijah heard[/b] [i]it[/i], that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, [i]there came[/i] a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
[b]1 Ki 19:11-13[/b]

Notice that Elijah recognised the subtle absence of God in the manifestations that occurred [b]before the LORD[/b], and ignored them all, awaiting the familiar voice, which he responded to? These "Toronto style" ministers would no doubt argue, "Look at that. The wind, earthquake and fire must be a sign from God, because they all occurred as He passed by." And yet the Biblical record clearly states that He was not in them. Considering that Elijah is mentioned by name in Malachi's end time comments, symbolically in one of Revelation's two witnesses and by Jesus himself, pointing our attention to John the Baptist (who did no miracle, was the Elijah to come, and was to be "voice crying aloud in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the LORD, making straight paths for his feet"), don't you think that this allusion should be considered?

As you stated earlier, "if something is not from God, and it's supernatural, chances are it's demonic". If this is truly your view, then why are you not open to the consideration that they may not be from God? The Roman Catholic Church was the movement getting all the numbers in the dark age, does that mean we should heed their doctrine? Of course not. In that case, what do you have to support that the "LORD is in" these phenomena, apart from the say-so of these people who have earned your respect by their "great works" (ie, miracles, vast amounts of people would have "said a prayer", in their meetings, etc)?

The sermon that you recommended was full of commercial hype (which Johnson claimed to avoid) and insertions into the plain Biblical record based upon humanistic reasoning. Show me one verse that was taken out of context in the material that I recommended to you (considering that Prasch, in particular in fluent in both Koine Greek and classical Hebrew, having a thorough knowledge of both Church and Hebraic history).

I hope you can see this, Stan. I say this as someone who was where you are (I'm sorry if that sounded arrogant or condescending), until people patiently showed me, in the Word of God, where God spoke against such things, both verbally and typographically. I can remember arguing with someone in my lounge room that he was in danger of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit". For me, one of my earliest moments of realisation that something was wrong with all this, was entering into such a type of forum thread, regarding the phenomena of Gold Dust/Teeth (I watched my wife's teeth had turned gold in a meeting before my eyes). Through some of the comments said, and passages of Scripture referred to, I began to see a little clearer, and cease to try to convince myself and others that there was nothing wrong with such things.

All I ask is that you consider the possibility that you may be wrong. That's all. Toronto would have us ignore our discomfort about these things, in spite of Scripture clearly exhorting us to discern all things. Check it out in Scripture. What's the harm in that? Consider these chilling words, from Art Katz:

Well, if this is not the lying signs and wonders that we have been warned would characterize the Last Days, then when those lying signs and wonders do come, how will they be substantially different in form and appearance from what is presently taking place? How will we exercise then the discernment that we are incapable of exercising now? The Church needs to be stirred up, saints. We need to be called to maturity. If we are not able to recognize the false prophets now, then how will we recognize the greater deceptions that are to come? There will be wonders. There will be miracles. There will be demonstrations of power. They will be beneficial, but they will be lying signs and wonders. If we are only concerned with the benefit and not all that much with the source, then will we discern it?

This discussion reminded me of statement by Duncan Campbell -- It is true that we have seen man's best endeaver in the field of evangelism leaving communities untouched. We have seen crowded churches. We have seen many professions. We have seen hundreds, yes, and thousands responding to what you speak of here as the altar call. But I want to say this, dear people, and I say it without fear of contradiction, that you can have all that without God! Now, that may startle you, but I say again, you can have all that on mere human levels and it's supernatural, chances are it's demonic.

what are you saying?

stantheman wrote:
what are you saying?

Good, it's not just me ;-)

Just sticking my nose in here to let Aaron and rlh know I agree.

Phenomna do not validate any ministry. Meaning: just because miracles are happening does not mean they are from God. Actually, it could it should serve to us as a warning that what we are seeing needs to investigated more deeply. I had a client who was involved in a cult who spoke in tongues. Now my exposure to mass deception was on a different level then what Aaron was sharing on this thread.

Now I wonder, how do these people live where the rubber meets the road? How to they handle annoyances - with anger? How are their marriage relationships? How do they treat their children? An unfavorite dog? (Really! I have heard an evangelist say you can tell whether a man is a Christian by the way he treats his dairy cows - he was talking to a lot of dairymen then. Hey, having milked cows in my youth, he is right on. Why is this so? How do you respond when the cow kicks you? Steps on your foot with only a flimsy sole between it and the concrete? Or when she does not go where you want her to? Listen up, I actually had a dairyman apologize to me one time for the way he mistreated his cows! He had an encounter with the LORD, you see.) While Aaron has made valid points using scripture one should check out their lifestyles in how they cope with aggravations, how they handle business, how they make money.....oftentimes these speak louder then anything else you are hearing...

Interesting thread, brothers!

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
While Aaron has made valid points using scripture one should check out their lifestyles in how they cope with aggravations, how they handle business, how they make money.....oftentimes these speak louder then anything else you are hearing...

While I do agree with you, at the same time, changed lives are not enough. Contrary to popular opinion, there are many moral people outside of the Kingdom of God, in the sense that that they give to philanthropic causes, are compassionate to people and animals, hoest in their business dealings. Paris Reidhead even cited Albert Schweitzer, in his sermon Ten Shekels and a shirt, describing him as a "brilliant man" who was "utterly consistent" in his philosophy of "reverence for life", even to a cockroach and a microbe.

The point is, it is not "one thing" which we can use as an indicator, but many (dare I say "all"). Lifestyle is important, as is theology, as are demonstrations of faith. The one thing that I look for in a life is whether or not the person has realised the futility of trying to make up for God's "apparent inadequacies". You know what I mean? Like when they read something and say "Oh no. God couldn't have meant that. It's completely out of keeping with His character."

The one thing that we have, to test whether a thing is of God or not, is His Word, period. You may say His Spirit, and that is true, but Jesus said that the Spirit will bring to remembrance his words, and consider that the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. In other words, the words that He brings to remembrance are every word of Scripture. The Spirit will not speak of Himself. If His Word has testified something to the contrary to what is going on, then question it. Sadly, it seems that there has been much "ignorance" in order to justify these phenomena.

when they pray in Jesus' name, then they get the genuine work of the Holy Spirit. You can't heal someone or change someones life (ie. addictions etc) with deamonic power if you pray in Jesus name.
Not possible.
and what's with "it's of God but God's not in it."
that is the biggest rubbush i've heard in my entire life.
You pray for someone and they get healed and you say "nah, It was of God, but he wasn't in it". there is no in between. it's either of God or of satan. we as people can't work the miraculous.

stantheman wrote:
You can't heal someone or change someones life (ie. addictions etc) with deamonic power if you pray in Jesus name.
Not possible.

and what's with "it's of God but God's not in it."
that is the biggest rubbish I've heard in my entire life.
You pray for someone and they get healed and you say "nah, It was of God, but he wasn't in it". there is no in between. it's either of God or of satan. we as people can't work the miraculous.

One of the worst instances I saw of this "charismatic fraud" (albeit by well meaning ministers, who no doubt believe that what is happening is real, and valid) involved a man with crutches who was asked to put them down, and walk around the church with the "healer", an Australian by the name of John Melor. The man was grimacing in obvious pain as we hobbled out of the church, "healed" [[i]sic[/i]].

Perhaps God is on Bethel, perhaps not. My question is, what is the reason that you won't question this? After all, we are exhorted to test all things.

Regarding being "of God, but God not being in it", consider that God sent a strong delusion to Ahab, via deceiving spirits. But hang on, God does not lie. In other words it was "of God", in the sense that the ideas point of origin was from God, but God was not in it, because a lying spirit is obviously a demonic thing.

My earlier illustration, which you obviously ignored, was God passing by Elijah on the mountain. The terminology used was "but God was not in.." the events that occurred as a result of Him passing by. That fact that it was His "passing by" that caused these events to happen, means that technically they were "of God", but the Scripture clearly states that "God was not in" them. [b]These are not my words, but the words of Scripture. Call it the "biggest rubbish (you've) ever heard", if you want. Just take it up with God, not me[/b].

Apparently, gut feelings and subjective experiences are more important than the Word of God. Sorry, I missed that memo from the Godhead.

1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I'm sure that toronto acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. We could even call John Arnott on the phone and ask him

JWs and mormons do not belive in the same Jesus we believe in.

The Mormon church views Jesus and Satan as spirit brothers and sons of God. God put forth His plan of salvation for the world, and Satan proposed his own plan. Jesus accepted the Father's plan and offered to implement it as the Savior. The Father chose Jesus, and the spirit of Jesus was given a body through the virgin Mary. He was crucified on a Roman cross, and rose from the dead three days later to establish His deity. The character and life of Jesus is attainable by anyone who performs at such a righteous level.

According to Jehovah's Witness' theology, God is a single person, not a Trinity, who does not know all things and is not everywhere. He first created Michael the Archangel through whom He created all "other things," including the universe, the earth, Adam and Eve, etc. This creative work took God 42,000 years.

see how they are really wrong?

by the way, please note, your analegy is out of context.

stantheman wrote:
1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I'm sure that toronto acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. We could even call John Arnott on the phone and ask him

JWs and mormons do not belive in the same Jesus we believe in.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
[url=http://ditc.podomatic.com/enclosure/2006-04-02T15_13_31-07_00.mp3]The Spirit Of Truth And The Spirit Of Error[/url] (Audio) - Note: You might recognise the reference to fellow South Australian, Andrew Evans (unnamed), as the former AoG chairman.

stantheman wrote:
see how they are really wrong?

by the way, please note, your analegy is out of context.

The sad thing is, I can see how the JWs and Mormons are wrong, in that they put claims upon Jesus which they justify by taking Scripture out of context, and yet when Arnott and co take Scripture out of context, we'll just ignore that. They subtly distort who He is by putting implied meanings upon words that He said, ignoring the context of what was said, and/or the OT passages that He was referring to. Therefore, it could be said that they also believe in a different Jesus. After all, not acknowledging that Jesus is from God, include ignoring the pretext to many of His statements, bearing in mind that the contrast is against acknowledging that he came in the flesh? And which would you consider to be the more dangerous distortion, the obvious, or the subtle?

I'll be interested to know which analogy I offered is "out of context", or in which way.

I also wonder if you have ever questioned this phenomena? You are speaking to someone who has embraced such thing things, and yet now has seen the truth of them. Similar frustrations come when speaking to an atheist, who has never looked into the claims of Christ.

It seems that you are simply ignoring everything that I raise, and then reply by quoting these guys in the context and terminology that they use. Bring me Scripture Stan, in proper context, rather than ignoring the history behind the statements. I'm not just filling in time here. I'm firmly aware of the damage that embracing such [b]deception[/b] can cause.

Consider my statements being offered in the Spirit of being prepared to "jump on the grenade that has been thrown into the camp", by allowing myself to be ridiculed and rejected by someone who has apparently shut themselves off form rationally testing an apparent move of God, with nothing but Scripture. Perhaps that sounds a little arrogant and condescending. Well trust me, I'm embarrassed to speak as such, except that I know that ones came before me, who did me the same favour. Otherwise I would still be as deceived as you are right now.

All I have asked is that you consider the possibility, and even the implications, of such phenomena not being "of God". Have you done it? If not, and you won't, then my apologies for wasting yours and my time.

Aaron wrote:

The point is, it is not "one thing" which we can use as an indicator, but many (dare I say "all"). Lifestyle is important, as is theology, as are demonstrations of faith. The one thing that I look for in a life is whether or not the person has realised the futility of trying to make up for God's "apparent inadequacies". You know what I mean? Like when they read something and say "Oh no. God couldn't have meant that. It's completely out of keeping with His character."

I agree 100%. Yes: how to they respond to Biblical directives? Make excuses for their disobediences?

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
Aaron wrote:

...they read something and say "Oh no. God couldn't have meant that. It's completely out of keeping with His character."

I agree 100%. Yes: how to they respond to Biblical directives? Make excuses for their disobediences?

In the sermon that stan recommended we listen to, the preacher ascribed to what would be known as "Kingdom Now" theology. That is the belief that God's Kingdom will progressively manifest on earth. It is the idea that things will progressively get better as we draw closer to Him, and have a greater measure of faith, seeing everything come under God's dominion.

For instance, sickness isn't God's will, so God's kingdom manifested will mean healing. Where there is poverty, God will make you rich. Where there is rejection, God will bring acceptance, etc. This appears to ignore statements like "[b]All[/b] that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." for example, because Jesus "grew in wisdom, stature and favour with men."

There are statements that imply Christ's poverty, but these would have us say that He was rich. Paul spoke of having a thorn in the flesh, and yet these would say that Christ heals all.

Simply put, their Christ is one that puts the felt needs of man first, where the Christ of the Bible's priority was the glory of God, often neglecting man's perceived needs from their own good.

You see how subtle it is? And because there is such an expectation built up, people get caught up in the excitement, testifying of "healings", but failing to retract their testimony, when they realise they were never healed at all. Worse yet, they continue to delude themselves into believing that they are in fact healed, out of fear of "losing their healing" through lack of faith, and meanwhile their symptoms continue to fester under the surface.

Being that I am married to one who convinced herself that she was healed of depression and anorexia, only to reach the point seven years on, when she would be curled up in a ball, unable to meet her children's needs, due to a paranoid fear of taking antidepressants. If she was healed, she shouldn't need them, and besides, the church looks down on such as these, calling them to get out of their "pity party".

As I have said, the danger is in its subtlety. When ministers "test" others by asking "You you believe that Christ came in the flesh?" when if we're honest, even the demons of hell believe this, they open themselves up to deception. Rather they should be testing to see if the "spirit" of their message testifies and confirms to the fact. Sadly, through the superstitious asking of a question, they allow ones who come with excitement to rob them of their inheritance of apostolic authenticity.

Allow me to just add this:

The Bible says "by their fruit ye shall know them"
Do they live a life of victory? Is the main enemy sin, the world and the devil?

One of the leading "Church leaders" in our country is divorced, married again and is still the pastor.

Get to know them personally, and within a short time you will see if the bear good fruit (a bad tree does not bear good fruit)

Thanks

and besides, the church looks down on such as these, calling them to get out of their "pity party".

Hi,
A friend of mine and I were talking about our church and of some fake stuff that was going on.He said to me you know elijah on the mountain top,their was elijah,the prophets of baal and the people of Isreal."Which one are we like?"He said.Knowing the answer I replied "we are like the Isrealites always sitting on the fence".
When he said to me no we are like the prophets of baal,jumping about,shouting,fooling around geniunely thinking God is going to answer our false worship.Ultimately they were killed,that doesn't happen nowadays thanks to God's Grace but he does kill the falseness in us,
Rgds Staff
p.s The toronto-ists are the prophets of baal doesnt mean they are'nt Isrealites,doesnt meant they are not saved,does'nt mean God won't deal with them in fact it ensures that he will!

I was recently handed a CD entitled "Marinating in God...Pickling in His Presence"
On it scripture is spoken (dramatically and with much repetition) and music is in the background.

Is this along the same lines as the "soaking" that is mentioned early on in this thread?

I listened to it, (after an hour and a half in the Presence of God - I say that to bring the point that I was sensitive to the Spirit)
but this CD was somewhat "annoying" to me.
However, the person who gave it to me, had really been spiritually touched by it; and is a highly respected minister in our community.

How could one person be moved by something, and another be absolutely NOT.?

I personally do not like when "soft music" is accompanying preaching...it is distracting. I hang on to each word that is spoken and don't want to have to push the "noise" out of the way while I am "processing" the message.
and if the Spirit of God is not on the music (or the words for that matter) it is just "noise" to me....

Am I alone in this?