ok now i used to believe 100% about hell being for eternity, but now im thinking about how that could be. I don't understand how you would suffer for ETERNITY. I mean i know im not god and that i wouldn't understand fully, but i guess i want people here to just tell me an explanation so i can believe it because i don't feel right not being 100% about all gods word...my question is i can not understand about why muslims or other countries who would go to hell if they have never had the gospel preached to them...it doesn't make sense i mean they had NO way to hear the gospel and what if all they had to do was hear about jesus for 1 second yet they had NO way of knowing and then they die and they go to hell.....?Im just hoping to get sense so that my faith wont be less than 100% with those 2 things from the bible...thats all i have been struggling with
one question about hell and one question about countires who never hear the gospel
Answering a student's question, 'Will the heathen who have not heard the Gospel be saved?' thus, 'It is more a question with me whether we, who have the Gospel and fail to give it to those who have not, can be saved.
-Charles Spurgeon
God is just and God is judge.
Perhaps you may like to read Romans 1-3.
God bless u!
This is one of those questions that will vary a lot in the answers that people give. Concerning an eternal hell, it is just as the word of God says. Why do you suppose Jesus himself warned about it so much. Mark 9v42-48 and Isaiah 66v24 tells us that the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. And it is eternal. Forever. And as has been stated before, Romans chapters 1-3 need to be studied and understood as God demonstrating in nature His very existence. Romans 9v18 says...He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. God help us not to be hard hearted. And accept God's rebuke, correction, chastiement and whatever else needs to be meted out. God can and will reach the heathen without us. He has. So I have read. However, the word of God is our first authority concerning this world, this life, and eternity to come, whether in heaven or hell. Let's hope it's heaven. God bless.
This is a very difficult question to answer and I too have wondered about this...
However, I want to ask you a question. Before you answer, please take time to think it through.
Which is worse: A (EDIT: person) who has never heard the gospel dying and going to hell
or
A person who has heard the gospel, died without believing therefore going to hell?
My thoughts:
There is no difference. They will both end up in the same place and receive the same punishment. However, we (as humans) view the first person with sympathy but do not view the second person with the same sympathy. Why is this? Both are going to the same place to suffer the same punishment.
God is a God of justice. He will punish sin wherever it is found. It just as true today as it was in the Old Testament that God has chosen to reveal himself to some but not others. God is not wrong in doing this.
The example I heard was the following:
A warden has 1,000 prisoners in his prison. The warden choses to grant a pardon to one of the prisoners based not on what the prisoner has done to deserve the pardon, but on the mercy of the warden only. The warden pardons the prisoner and he goes free and his life is changed for the better.
Now, was the warden merciful?
Was the warden just?
Did the warden has the right to pardon the prisoner?
What if someone accused the warden of being mean and sadistic? Why didn't he pardon all the prisoners? If he is such a merciful warden, why did he not show mercy to all prisoners?
The fact is, all the prisoners deserve their sentence. If the warden choses to pardon some, it only highlights his goodness and mercy.
God is merciful in that we do not all end up in hell where we belong for our sins. Praise the name of the Lord!!!
Dear luckyd,
When I was first saved, I struggled with the idea of Hell a bit myself. I could not believe that the Lord would let someone suffer for eternity. However, I prayed over this matter.
Of course, you should immediately take these questions to the Lord in prayer. Not to say you haven't, but just making sure that you have. Give your heart and mind to the Lord, so that He may fill you with truth.
The reason I stress and emphasize prayer is because at the core of this question is an issue of trust. In the Lord's judgments, we must trust Him and trust that He is righteous. He is perfectly fit and capable to judge those who haven't heard the gospel rightly. We may not always understand the entire process by which He will make His judgments. We do know the basis. We know Jesus Christ. We know all authority has been granted to Christ, and that He will judge. We also know that Christ spoke of Heaven and Hell, both in terms of eternity. However, we do not know how Christ will judge. We do not know who is saved or not. All we can do is obey Christ in love, being completely abandoned to Him. If the Lord says speak, we should speak. And if the Lord says remain silent, then we should remain silent. Only then shall His work be complete, for only He knows the hearts of men.
We must trust Him. We must have faith in Him. This comes first. When this has been established, then the Lord will bless us with knowledge. Faith must come first because there is a danger for anyone to put their trust in logic and reasoning. Faith based upon logic and reasoning is empty and weak. If our faith is based on logic and reasoning, then we can easily be shaken by confusion. We are easy prey to the Devil, the author of lies and confusion. Thus, we must base our faith in Christ our Lord, placing all our trust in Him.
Think of children who know so little, and yet Christ said we need to have the faith of a child. We need to trust our Lord in Heaven just as a child trust his/her parents. We need not know how or why God works, but just trust in His person. Once we trust in Him completely, then He can work in us freely. Imagine if we have given up everything to Jesus....imagine what Jesus can do in us. Christ would be free to do anything. We could move moutains.
When this issue of faith has been dealt with, and our faith is at 100%, then the Lord will open our eyes to what our heart already knows. The Lord gives us knowledge not so we may have faith, but so that we may delight in His ways.
And I am a firm believer that no person should ever believe something just because it's in the bible. You should first seek after the Lord, and if He should choose to direct you toward the bible, then let Him speak to you through it. However, the Lord may use countless ways to speak to you. The answer may come through another believer, through an experience, or through personal revelation. The important thing is to first seek the Lord.
You may be tempted to first seek the answer. And you might say to the Lord, "I can't believe in you Lord unless you first give me an answer." If that is the case, the Lord will not give you an answer. The Lord wants to be first in your life. And so, my advice is to pray continually, seeking after the Lord persistently, and then He will answer your question. Once your faith is in Him, then He will bless you.
You are in my prayers.
In Christ,
Blake
And I am a firm believer that no person should ever believe something just because it's in the bible. You should first seek after the Lord, and if He should choose to direct you toward the bible, then let Him speak to you through it. However, the Lord may use countless ways to speak to you. The answer may come through another believer, through an experience, or through personal revelation. The important thing is to first seek the Lord.
I would only say, check all this with the scriptures themselves.
I would only say, check all this with the scriptures themselves.
Who is your God, the scriptures or Christ? Who do you serve, the scriptures which contain the law, or Christ who set us free from the law?
If you read the scriptures, they all point to Jesus. And so, what should come first? Should scripture come first, or should Christ? Should we put our faith in Jesus or scripture? Should we trust in Jesus or scripture?
If you read scripture, it tells us to trust in Jesus. No where in scripture does it say to test all things against scripture. No where does it say scripture is the authority of all things. Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:16 that scripture is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". The word profitable suggests an increase. Scripture is not the source of righteousness, however, it can help us increase in our knowledge and understanding of righteousness.
Scripture is not the authority on all things. Rather, John recorded Jesus as saying, "I am the way, and the truth" (John 14:6) and "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:3). As a believer, we are to place all our faith and trust in the Lord. Never once does scripture say we should check or test it against scripture. The bible is not greater than Christ or the Spirit.
There is a great danger in telling anyone to read scripture without consulting Christ or praying first. In order for anyone to read the bible and discern the truth within, they must first be lead by the Holy Spirit. If we tell a person to read the bible without first praying or seeking the Lord, then they are reading it with their own understanding. They are reading scripture and drawing conclusions in accord with their own logic and reasoning. When this happens, the person is lead farther away from Christ.
Scripture says this:
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Indeed, scripture is profitable for teaching and instructing. However, first we must submit ourselves completely and entirely unto the Lord. When we do this, when we first pray to Christ and ask Him to reveal truth to us, then we can read scripture and discern it. However, when we just throw scripture around expecting people to understand it, or worse yet, when we treat it like our Lord, expecting people to obey every word, then we are heading into dangerous ground. We are putting the bible above the Lord Himself.
Seek after the Lord first, and then we won't need the bible to tell us about God. Rather, the bible will be profit. It will be extra, like icing on the cake. Our faith will be in Christ, and the bible will be an affirmation of what we already know.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
In Christ,
Blake
I agree Mike, if it doesn't line up with the Word of God, the Bible, leave it alone.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
I believe also that God will be just. I do believe hell is eternal, and that it is eternal destruction. The Scriptures are very clear about that.
Concerning those who haven't heard the gospel, listening to Paris Reidhead's testimony of the natives in Africa was eye-opening. He said he would ask them who made a stick or a leaf, and they would give him a name, we will say Alpha is his name. Then he would ask the natives who they sacrificed to, and they would say another name, we will say Bravo for this name.
When asked why they worshipped Bravo, the natives said they didn't want him to destroy their crops, wreck their lives, etc. When asked who they faced when they died, they said Alpha. When asked where Alpha lived, they pointed to the mountain tops. Paris then asked them what would get them in trouple with Alpha, they said stealing, lying, adultery, basically all Ten Commandments.
So even in the jungles in Africa, they knew that the God that created everything would judge them after their death, which basically is what Romans 1 and other Scriptures says, that they are without excuse. I like what a street preacher on one of Ray Comfort's video said, that our conscience has already told us that we stand before a perfect God, condemned.
We will see on Judgment Day, let's just make sure we are preaching the gospel to someone.
Hi luckyd,
my question is i can not understand about why muslims or other countries who would go to hell if they have never had the gospel preached to them...
I would like to offer some verses for you to consider in your seeking concering this question and I'd like to share a bit of my own understanding along with them and I pray that God will bless our discussion. :-D
Some verses to consider first from John...
..but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
and this is "how" I think....
And this is the condemnation...
..that light is come into the world,...
...and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
I think(only opinon) that John is at least hinting that all men sin against the light(see also John 1:4)
Now also compare these with what Paul wrote in Romans chapter 1...
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,....
again connecting this with sinning against the light...
who hold the truth in unrighteousness
I believe that Paul goes on to explain this very specifically in the next few verses.
He says things like...
a knowledge of God is...
manifest in them
he says...
God hath shewed it unto them.
He says these things are..
clearly seen
so that...
they are without excuse:
That is some pretty heavy stuff brother. But I really think he is making a strong case that all of us, that is humanity, sin against the light.
Now, from verse 21 on I think he goes on to talk about what happens because of this, specifically idolatry, or you might even say false religon?
In religous terms, we might consider there are two types of people, those who had the law and those who didn't. The Law was(but not only) a special gift of God to reveal His righteousness and to reveal sin.
And Paul says that both of these groups are condemend...
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law...
....and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
After treating with different aspects of this, he restates this point again in chapter 3..
..for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
And after this comes the well know passage about there being none righteous, not even one.
What is interesting about the description that follows is all the parts of the body that are mentioned... the throat, the tounge, the lips, the feet, and the eyes...as though he were saying we are corrupt from head to toe!
I hope that these verse will be helpfull. This is a pretty heavy topic but important too.
Peace be with you all in Christ Jesus
Once again we see a false teaching attacking the word of God. If you need experiences, voices etc, then you are left questioning if that voice or experience is from God, for satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Anyone who can say the Bible is not the word of God is self deceived. This is totally changing the original question concerning hell and the heathen. What I can't understand is if blake doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does he quote scripture? Isn't that a contradiction?
Isaiah 8v20 says 'To the law and to the testimony if they say not according to THIS WORD, it is because there is no light in them'
Blake is using the Bible to try to prove that the Bible is not the word of God. Does anyone else understand this oxymoron?
beenblake,
I think I know what you are trying to say...however I don't agree with the way you are saying it.
You are trying to make the point that the Bible is great but it is not Christ. You are saying this as a reaction to people who seem to place more emphasis in reading the Bible than consulting God through prayer.
I can follow your line of thinking to a point...
We must remember that God created the Bible for a reason and that reason is to provide us with the written words of God. The Holy Spirit leads us in all truth and the Holy Spirit also points me plenty of times to scripture.
I don't see the Holy Spirit and the Bible ever competing against one another. What I mean by that is the Holy Spirit will never say anything that will contradict God's written word. If there is a contradiction then I need to examine which is in error...usually from reading the Bible I find that I have strayed from listening to the Holy Spirit and have listened to that 'angel of light masquerading...'
Who is your God, the scriptures or Christ? Who do you serve, the scriptures which contain the law, or Christ who set us free from the law?
Yes!
That may sound strange brother but I hope to unravel this here, I pray so. The scriptures contain the 'law' as you have stated, but far much more than that. Blake, I plead with you to bear with me...
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
[b]Luk 24:32 -
Our heart burn within us
[b]He opened to us
This narrative shows us,
1. How blind people may be to the plainest doctrines of the Scriptures until they are explained to them. These disciples had often read or heard the Scriptures, but never, until then, did they fully understand that the Messiah must suffer.
2. It is proper there should be those whose office it is to explain the Scriptures. Jesus did it while on earth; he does it now by his Spirit; and he has appointed his ministers, whose business it is to explain them.
3. If people attempt to explain the Bible, they should themselves understand it. They should give their time and talents to a suitable preparation to understand the sacred volume. Preaching should consist in “real,” and not “fancied” explanations of the Scriptures; the real doctrines which “God” has taught in his word, and not the doctrines that “men” have taught in their systems.
4. Here was convincing evidence that Jesus was the Messiah. This was but one of many instances where Jesus convinced his disciples, contrary to their previous belief. In this case the evidence was abundant. He first satisfied them from the Old Testament that the very things which had happened were foretold; he then dissipated every doubt by showing “himself” to them and convincing them that he was truly the Christ. There was no chance here for deception and juggling. Who would have met them and talked with them in this way but the real Saviour? Who would have thought of writing this narrative to help an imposture? What impostor would have recorded the dulness of the disciples as to the plain declarations of the Old Testament, and “then” have thought of this device to prop up the narrative? Everything about this narrative - its simplicity - its tenderness - its particularity - its perfect nature - its freedom from all appearance of trick - shows that it was taken from real life; and if so, then the Christian religion is true, for here is evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 15:20 [u]Remember the word that I said unto you
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Brother, these are not just random verses as proof text. Is not all of communication ultimately rooted in what is meant? What we discuss here amongst ourselves, a sequence of letters stringed together to form words to communicate thought. [i]Meaning
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Blake, look how well everything is codified in the "both" of the matter;
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the [u]whole
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the [u]word
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
And again...
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Is this not so? The same Word of truth, brought to remembrance by the Holy Spirit because it is hidden in the heart and brought to the mind.
Heart to heart communication that is not contradictory, we are the contradicted, the divided, the fallen, the fallible. If I had the ability, I wouldn't trust myself to throw myself across the street. I realize that [i]I don't know
Blake, how I could but wish to get to the very bottom of all this once and for all and be done with it. There is something about a mindset among us that often cut's across every discussion and it is this partisan spirit, this either\\or thinking, this leaning hard on one area and neglecting another. We can build up whole constructs and\\or doctrines on a select verse or even a handful. Whole denominations have been constructed this way and then everything is held up to the ideal, instead of the ideal being held up to the whole.
What you are doing again as in the recent past is no different. We are so proud and so slow to hear and to listen, to take the whole counsel of the Lord. We would prefer to wield the scriptures, Gods thought, the Lords intent, that which if we recall ...
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
... rather than to submit to it, to come under it, to humble ourselves before all that the Lord has spoken, is speaking and still constantly communicates to us without contradiction, through His word, in His word by His word, by prayer, by the Holy Spirit ... [u]who
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and [u]in you all
Blake I do very much grasp the emphasis of the heart that you are trying to convey due to the wreckage and incredible mis-management of the scriptures themselves. The very thought communicated to the heart is lost on so many. The combustion just lying below the surface, ready to explode at the slightest challenge ... I just do not understand it completely. The scriptures as a solitary scholastic study. As a weapon to bludgeon the foes with or each other by mere mortals. As some sort of reference manual to jostle over a jot or a title as if it were sport .... Surely it is expressed in Ephesians as a sword and in Hebrews as a double edged sword, meaning it cut's both ways;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Jam 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more severely.
Jam 3:2 For all of us make many mistakes. If someone does not make any mistakes when he speaks, he is perfect and able to control his whole body.
I am somewhat grieved seeing the amount of hostility expressed between brothers of late. Time and again I must wonder at ... "Are we reading the same Book"? Or to dissuade a misunderstanding, "Has the Book read us"? Has the thought of God penetrated far enough into our very marrow that we do not see, feel and recognize just how far off we are or can be?
Blake, it is a whole. One of the best and accurate lines of thought I have ever heard that still resonates when it comes to scripture was stated by our own Philologos who has much more traction and longevity than the two of us combined; That we lift up a section or verses to examine them, but to be sure to put them back into their context when we are through with them. It is no different in the attributes and matters of the heart, of prayer, of contemplation, the Lords thought is unified and communicated without error as a whole. Where it is off is where we must struggle and relinquish, humble ourselves and change both our minds and our hearts.
There is a great deal of agitation and hostility towards one another, so much so that we are ready to lunge at each other with unkind words and thoughts, malice and ill will. The Lord is left out of the entire picture while we yet talk of Him. Amazing!
Blake, I will come along side you here and draw up the one aspect for inspection before dropping it back down into the pool of marrow ... It is obvious that we are not praying as we ought, more concerned about what we [i]think
That we might apply this broadly, to the whole man, to what is evidently lacking;
Jam 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jam 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Jam 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jam 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jam 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jam 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Dear Enid and Mike,
if blake doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does he quote scripture? Isn't that a contradiction?
The bible is not the word of God. Jesus Christ is the word of God. The bible is a testimony of men to the word of God who is Jesus. The bible bears a testimony inpsired by God of Jesus.
How many times must I explain this before you will listen???
It is you who wish to turn the bible into God saying making it equal with Christ. When will you listen? The bible is not equal with Christ, it is a testimony of Christ.
The bible is a great and wonderful book. Indeed, it is filled with truth, and of all things on the earth that does not have a spirit, this book is the closest we have to truth. The bible is good and profitable for doctrine and instruction. Indeed, the bible was given to us by God through prophets over many generations. Yes, the bible is a useful and good book. The bible, however, is NOT Jesus Christ. The bible is NOT the WORD OF GOD.
Jesus Christ lives inside people. The Holy Spirit dwells inside of people. The bible is a book with words inside of it. The Word of God is living and active. The bible is an inanimate object. Human beings are living. Don't you see!!! You are denying Christ inside of you.
The true oxymoron comes when people say, "I am a Christian" and then say "The bible is the Word of God." Who is your God? Is Jesus your God, or the bible? Do you not see this? Do you not know that the Word of God is God? Have you not read scripture that testifies to this? Read the bible. In John 1:1, is says, "the Word was God."
Throughout the bible, it says that scripture is a testimony. The apostle Luke recognized this when he said:
Luke 1:2(KJ)
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luke was an "eyewitness" to the word. When he wrote the book of Luke, he was writing his testimony. He was not writing the exact words of God. He was writing his testimony to Jesus, who is the word. Likewise, there have been many ministers of the word who recorded what they heard and saw. The result is a testimony to the word. However, the bible is not the Word itself. All scripture is a testimony.
This is a huge difference. Especially when you read scripture. Every place in the bible where it talks about the Word of God, it is really talking about Jesus. However, our society has substituted it with the bible. We have replaced Christ with the bible. It is sad and disgusting. The Church is worshipping the bible above Christ. She is committing adultery and is in complete denial. She refuses to see this.
Go through the bible. Where ever it says, "the word", it is really talking about Jesus. Replace "the word" with "Jesus." Then you will see the truth. Stop worshipping the bible. Jesus is God.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Do you not see? This is speaking of Jesus. Faith comes by hearing Jesus. However, people have replaced the Word of God who is Jesus with the bible. The Church has falled away from her first love. She has given herself over to the Master's servant. Rather than love her King, she commits adultery with His servants. The bible was given to us by God, but the bible is merely a servant to Christ. The bible is less than Christ.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Do you not see? Their hearts burned because Christ was speaking to them. It was not because of scripture. It was because of Christ.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Yes, yes, Jesus Christ is the Word of God. He speaks the very words of God. Those that hear His word that comes through the Holy Spirit. It was not the bible that convicted me on the day of my salvation. It was the Holy Spirit. I heard His voice speaking to me, calling me unto repetance. This came through Christ speaking through others.
The Word of God can come through the bible. The bible is a vessel which God can use. The bible is God's servant. However, this does not make the bible into God. There is a difference. God may also use you Mike, to speak His word. A person may repent and be saved from a sermon you give. Their heart may burn within them as you tell them the gospel. But this burning came from Christ, not from you. When the Holy Spirit fills you, and Jesus puts words into your mouth, does that make you God? Does that make you the Word of God?
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Was the bible written by Jesus? It was written by men who were recording a testimony of what they heard and saw. The gospels quote Jesus. Indeed, these quotes tell us what Christ said. However, they are not the original words. They have filtered through another person. When Jesus spoke, He spoke God's words as it says in John 2:34. When John recorded Jesus, he was not speaking Jesus's words. He was repeating them. There is a difference. Jesus is God, and His words are God's words. John is a servant of Christ. John's words are still John's words. They are his testimony.
In regard to the above scripture....When Jesus comes to dwell in a believer, he also fulfills the law within them. That person obeys God's commandments and Jesus's sayings as a result of being transformed. Christ works inside a person to make them righteous. This comes about through love. A person loves Christ by giving their own life to Him. That is love. We give our lives over to another. Christ did this on the cross, and we do it in baptism. When this happens, when we give our love to Christ, we abandon ourselves to Him. When this happens, Christ controls us, and we obey His commandments naturally. It is not something we strive for or do, it is fruit, something that results by being transformed. Thus, we keep the sayings of Jesus by being completely abandoned to Christ. We don't need to read them in the bible. We know them by heart because Christ is living in us.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Jesus was stating a fact, not a command in the above scripture. He was saying as a matter of truth, "if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." If Jesus is truly living inside of us and working in us, we will naturally live in accord with the law and scripture. It will not be forced. It will be known by Christ in us.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Yes, yes, Jesus is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit.... Who convicts a person? It is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Jesus said He was the bread of Heaven. Have you tasted the word of God? Have you eaten of this bread.
The whole bible is like this. And yet, the Church has failed to see the truth. They fail to see Christ is the Lord. He is the Word of God. He is supreme. He is King. He is greater than the bible, and is the one working in all believers.
When we make the bible into the Word, we are falling again into our old ways of the law. Following the bible requires we obey it. This means we do so by our own power. However, following Christ requires we give ourselves to Him in love. This means we give ourselves to Jesus, so that He may enter in and control us. This is so different. Can't you see the danger in calling the bible the Word of God? It is dangerous for unbelievers who think they can be saved by the bible. It is dangerous for those who base an entire faith or religion on the bible. And it is dangerous for believers, who deny Christ in them, and substitute Him for an idol they can see and touch and use to remain in control. When will the Church see her sin and turn back to her first love?
The servant is not greater than the master. The bible is not the Word of God. The bible is a testimony that testifies to the Word of God who is Jesus Christ.
The bible is a vessel by which the Word of God can come. Jesus can use the bible to speak to us. However, that doesn't make it Jesus. It is just a vessel. Without Christ, the bible is just a book.
Let us all hold fast to our first love. Let us not follow the bible, but follow Christ who lives inside of us. Has anyone who truly submitted themselves unto Christ, ever been lead astray by Him?
In Christ,
Blake
Dear Enid and Mike,
if blake doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does he quote scripture? Isn't that a contradiction?
The bible is not the word of God. Jesus Christ is the word of God. The bible is a testimony of men to the word of God who is Jesus. The bible bears a testimony inpsired by God of Jesus.
How many times must I explain this before you will listen???
It is you who wish to turn the bible into God saying making it equal with Christ. When will you listen? The bible is not equal with Christ, it is a testimony of Christ.
The bible is a great and wonderful book. Indeed, it is filled with truth, and of all things on the earth that does not have a spirit, this book is the closest we have to truth. The bible is good and profitable for doctrine and instruction. Indeed, the bible was given to us by God through prophets over many generations. Yes, the bible is a useful and good book. The bible, however, is NOT Jesus Christ. The bible is NOT the WORD OF GOD.
Jesus Christ lives inside people. The Holy Spirit dwells inside of people. The bible is a book with words inside of it. The Word of God is living and active. The bible is an inanimate object. Human beings are living. Don't you see!!! You are denying Christ inside of you.
The true oxymoron comes when people say, "I am a Christian" and then say "The bible is the Word of God." Who is your God? Is Jesus your God, or the bible? Do you not see this? Do you not know that the Word of God is God? Have you not read scripture that testifies to this? Read the bible. In John 1:1, is says, "the Word was God."
Throughout the bible, it says that scripture is a testimony. The apostle Luke recognized this when he said:
Luke 1:2(KJ)
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luke was an "eyewitness" to the word. When he wrote the book of Luke, he was writing his testimony. He was not writing the exact words of God. He was writing his testimony to Jesus, who is the word. Likewise, there have been many ministers of the word who recorded what they heard and saw. The result is a testimony to the word. However, the bible is not the Word itself. All scripture is a testimony.
This is a huge difference. Especially when you read scripture. Every place in the bible where it talks about the Word of God, it is really talking about Jesus. However, our society has substituted it with the bible. We have replaced Christ with the bible. It is sad and disgusting. The Church is worshipping the bible above Christ. She is committing adultery and is in complete denial. She refuses to see this.
Go through the bible. Where ever it says, "the word", it is really talking about Jesus. Replace "the word" with "Jesus." Then you will see the truth. Stop worshipping the bible. Jesus is God.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Do you not see? This is speaking of Jesus. Faith comes by hearing Jesus. However, people have replaced the Word of God who is Jesus with the bible. The Church has falled away from her first love. She has given herself over to the Master's servant. Rather than love her King, she commits adultery with His servants. The bible was given to us by God, but the bible is merely a servant to Christ. The bible is less than Christ.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Do you not see? Their hearts burned because Christ was speaking to them. It was not because of scripture. It was because of Christ.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Yes, yes, Jesus Christ is the Word of God. He speaks the very words of God. Those that hear His word that comes through the Holy Spirit. It was not the bible that convicted me on the day of my salvation. It was the Holy Spirit. I heard His voice speaking to me, calling me unto repetance. This came through Christ speaking through others.
The Word of God can come through the bible. The bible is a vessel which God can use. The bible is God's servant. However, this does not make the bible into God. There is a difference. God may also use you Mike, to speak His word. A person may repent and be saved from a sermon you give. Their heart may burn within them as you tell them the gospel. But this burning came from Christ, not from you. When the Holy Spirit fills you, and Jesus puts words into your mouth, does that make you God? Does that make you the Word of God?
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Was the bible written by Jesus? It was written by men who were recording a testimony of what they heard and saw. The gospels quote Jesus. Indeed, these quotes tell us what Christ said. However, they are not the original words. They have filtered through another person. When Jesus spoke, He spoke God's words as it says in John 2:34. When John recorded Jesus, he was not speaking Jesus's words. He was repeating them. There is a difference. Jesus is God, and His words are God's words. John is a servant of Christ. John's words are still John's words. They are his testimony.
In regard to the above scripture....When Jesus comes to dwell in a believer, he also fulfills the law within them. That person obeys God's commandments and Jesus's sayings as a result of being transformed. Christ works inside a person to make them righteous. This comes about through love. A person loves Christ by giving their own life to Him. That is love. We give our lives over to another. Christ did this on the cross, and we do it in baptism. When this happens, when we give our love to Christ, we abandon ourselves to Him. When this happens, Christ controls us, and we obey His commandments naturally. It is not something we strive for or do, it is fruit, something that results by being transformed. Thus, we keep the sayings of Jesus by being completely abandoned to Christ. We don't need to read them in the bible. We know them by heart because Christ is living in us.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Jesus was stating a fact, not a command in the above scripture. He was saying as a matter of truth, "if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." If Jesus is truly living inside of us and working in us, we will naturally live in accord with the law and scripture. It will not be forced. It will be known by Christ in us.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Yes, yes, Jesus is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit.... Who convicts a person? It is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Jesus said He was the bread of Heaven. Have you tasted the word of God? Have you eaten of this bread.
The whole bible is like this. And yet, the Church has failed to see the truth. They fail to see Christ is the Lord. He is the Word of God. He is supreme. He is King. He is greater than the bible, and is the one working in all believers.
When we make the bible into the Word, we are falling again into our old ways of the law. Following the bible requires we obey it. This means we do so by our own power. However, following Christ requires we give ourselves to Him in love. This means we give ourselves to Jesus, so that He may enter in and control us. This is so different. Can't you see the danger in calling the bible the Word of God? It is dangerous for unbelievers who think they can be saved by the bible. It is dangerous for those who base an entire faith or religion on the bible. And it is dangerous for believers, who deny Christ in them, and substitute Him for an idol they can see and touch and use to remain in control. When will the Church see her sin and turn back to her first love?
The servant is not greater than the master. The bible is not the Word of God. The bible is a testimony that testifies to the Word of God who is Jesus Christ.
The bible is a vessel by which the Word of God can come. Jesus can use the bible to speak to us. However, that doesn't make it Jesus. It is just a vessel. Without Christ, the bible is just a book.
Let us all hold fast to our first love. Let us not follow the bible, but follow Christ who lives inside of us. Has anyone who truly submitted themselves unto Christ, ever been lead astray by Him?
In Christ,
Blake
luckyd,
I would guess all of us had to deal with this question. I also have to ponder the one of 'eternal hell' and I have been a Christian many years and now am 59 YO! I do not understand it. But there are lots of things I do NOT understand and still act in faith that these things are so. For example, I do not know how a car engine works, but do know it needs gasoline to run and needs a regular tune-up. So I will gas it up so I can operate the vehicle. So it is with Bible doctrine. The concept of eternity is beyond our capability to understand because we are finite: everything has a begining and an end.
luckyd, there are testimonies of people who live in closed countries where the LORD revealed himself supernaturally and they served the LORD faithfully. Check out the story of Sammy Morris - you should be able to find his story on the web. There is another dear lady who the LORD spoke to supernaturally and her name is Jayapradha Bandela, and she presently lives in Florida. luckyd, I believe Jesus will reveal Himself to people who will accept Him, even those in Moslem countries - there are too many testimonies of this having occurred.
Take heart, brother. Just because something does not make sense, does not mean it ain't true! It just means we are ignorant! :-( or human - take your pick! :-D
ginnyrose
You are denying Christ inside of you.
No, no, no, Blake, Isn't this a copy of the other post you had written? Brother, I really think you are missing the thought, did you really read any of this? There is no division and no need to continue talking past each other here. I understand much more of what you are saying than it may appear I am letting on to, am only attempting to keep the 'sides' from pulling away from each other. I will leave it be.
The original question concerned hell and the heathen. If blake does not believe the Bible is the word of God, when we do reach the heathen, do we give them a Bible or not?
Dear Crsschk,
Did I write that in another post? I do not recall doing so, but I may have.
You are my brother and I love you dearly. I have been praying for you that the Lord would open your eyes and show you what He has shown me. I have been praying for us all. We desperately need Christ, including me.
I really think you are missing the thought, did you really read any of this?
I have read it, however, I may not have been listening as well as I could have been. Please, my brother, explain to me again.
In Christ,
Blake
You are my brother and I love you dearly. I have been praying for you that the Lord would open your eyes and show you what He has shown me. I have been praying for us all. We desperately need Christ, including me.
Am smiling broadly brother ... Have been praying something similar :-)
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever [i]I have said
Many ways this could be looked at it seems. Surely it meant this, and will take it out of order for a moment;
[b]and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you
John Gill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another that needs to be recalled here briefly;
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Remember ...?
Joh 20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
Joh 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
Even though He had told them repeatedly about what was to come.
[b]he shall teach you all things[u]had said to them
Where our perfect agreement meets is in the Lord, Who, if we recall to mind (speaking to everyone here) is alive ... [i]Now
What is it that is recalled to mind in our experience but that which we have read, or heard preached? What are the "[i]all things
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, [i]have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying
The Bible is not ... many of those same things that you have described elsewhere, granted. The paper, ink, almost strange that it would need to be addressed, kind of like saying air is colorless. It's a given and I do understand what you mean by the way it can be [i]used
Where I would be utmost concerned is where you would have Gods thought somewhat relegated to a corner by way of "Good for instruction" etc. You had stated that it was the icing on the cake, brother it is the cake.
It was recorded by and for good reason. To what will we appeal to? The often fuzzy notions mingled in with the ongoing renewing of our minds and hearts? Trust yourself and your own thoughts?
You may but I refuse, have found far too much folly that can distract me, emotions, circumstance, lack of prayer and resting on whatever 'knowledge' I may have absorbed. Lest we forget there is a real devil who comes often not in overt, overbearing ways as we are often inclined to think, but by tripping us up on our own reliance of self, with [i]good[i]disguised
If we really stop to think about it ... Better, a different approach. Brother, take away all the scriptures.
What do you have?
Need to qualify that, forget everything you know about the Lord and take away the scriptures.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[i]A note; This all may seem far off the question of the orginal post, but I have a hunch it may well lend a great deal towards an answer.
luckyd,
luckyd wrote:
ok now i used to believe 100% about hell being for eternity, but now im thinking about how that could be. I don't understand how you would suffer for ETERNITY. I mean i know im not god and that i wouldn't understand fully, but i guess i want people here to just tell me an explanation so i can believe it because i don't feel right not being 100% about all gods word...my question is i can not understand about why muslims or other countries who would go to hell if they have never had the gospel preached to them...it doesn't make sense i mean they had NO way to hear the gospel and what if all they had to do was hear about jesus for 1 second yet they had NO way of knowing and then they die and they go to hell.....?Im just hoping to get sense so that my faith wont be less than 100% with those 2 things from the bible...thats all i have been struggling with
I understand this one. You have a trememdous amount to learn about God, and about the nature of man, before you let this one settle. The Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 1 explains that man is without excuse, because of the fact that all mankind have been given enough in their make up to acknowledge the truth, but instead the suppress the truth in ungodliness. There is also some stuff you will need to learn about God chosing who He wants. I suggest you take a time out, ask God to open your eyes to His word and read through the whole of Romans.
In His service,
Aeryck
sis Enid
i think blake's point (and i agree with it) is that we need to be in line with the Lord first for scripture to be in any way profitable for us. We know Christ to be the Word of God and the scriptures to be the word of God and there is a difference. the one was with God and was God and so points to the Father, the other is the testimony of the Word (Christ) which points to Christ who then points to the Father. so while there is a difference, the 2 are intimately intertwined such that we must have both.
If we are not rooted in the Lord firmly, even scripture can quickly become an idol and we ought to be wary of this too.
brethren
i have been following this discussion and am led of God to share some things for His glory via our benefit. The struggle with the notion of an eternal hell to pay for a life of maybe 70 yrs seems grossly unfair to most people no doubt. it seems to be a stumbling block for some of the saints also. However there are some things we ought to consider which would help us graps this concept.
1) our sense of what is just and righteous stems from our flesh and therefore is perverted. not many of us think we deserve hell for what we've done because we can always find someone who has done worse in our book, however our book is rather partial and self-serving. we think "oh that sin can't be bad enough that it deserves hell" brethren our opinion on this is of no consequence, the only opinion which matters is God's because He's the one who does the sentencing.
2) because our sense of what is just and righteous is perverted, we are unable to see these 2 things as God does rendering us unable to be sympathetic to Him. to be sympathetic to Him is to then labuor with Him to bring us to a point where we conduct ourselves as He would have us so that the true Righteousness of God is shone forth and men will be convicted by God and repent. if we saw sin as God did, this would not be an issue. there is no sin which is underserving of hell and we would see that we ourselves are deserving of hell but are under the mercy of God by Christ's blood. When we see this, the Faith becomes for us a priviledge rather than a right and we are compelled to share the gospel.
God's Righteousness is revealed from heaven and is made plain throught creation. there is noone on earth who doesn't know there is a God. even the athiest knows there is a God but in professing himself wise, his foolish heart was darkened and eventually because he didn't like to retain thoughts of God, he was given over to a reprobate mind, hence all the foolish ideas out there like evolution etc.
now while noone may have expressly gone to a country/person to preach the gospel, the Lord will send an angel to proclaim the gospel to all nations in revelation 14 vs 6. so ultimately no one will have an excuse.
the judgements of a Righteous and Holy God are alien to an unrighteous and unholy people as we are. by nature we are averse to all things of God especially (i think anyway) His judgement. it's always (or almost always) fine when the judgement falls on someone else, however when it falls on you, suddenly it's not fair...the Lord convicted me by showing me how i responded to getting speeding tickets. i have a heavy foot and a powerful german sedan capable of high speed (by God's grace i've only gotten 1 ticket in this car, however in past cars i was not as fortunate) now when i'd get a ticket i'd get mad at the officer for writing it. never mind the fact that i had no business doing 80 in a 65 in the first place...when someone else gets tagged with a ticket i'd be gleeful...the Lord showed me i deserved those tickets and had no business driving that fast so i had no business being mad. how many of us honestly don't get mad when we get a ticket? if we struggle even with this, how much harder will it be to grasp the judgments of a Holy God?
I haven't read all the post on here, but have responded to this question many times before on the streets to unbelievers who ask about those who haven't heard. I have started making a list of [url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Q_&_A_To_Christianity.pdf]Frequently Asked Questions and Answers
Dear crsschk,
I am not sure how to explain this. We agree on many things, of course, the foremost being Christ is Lord.
I am certainly not denying the importance and significance of God's Word, that being the things God has said, or the teaching and sayings of Jesus. I do believe in agreement with scripture that the words that came from the mouth of Jesus, were the very words of God, as it says in John 3:34 (KJ), "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him"
The teachings of Jesus and the words of Jesus are the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. However, the bible is a testimony to the Word of God.
When God spoke, the words proceeded from His mouth. His speaking was then witnessed by another person and recorded. Imagine this, you are the apostle Luke living in the time of Christ. You stand there before this man called Christ, and listen in amazement to the truths He is speaking. Your heart burns within you. Sometime later, the Holy Spirit stirs within you, and recalls all these teachings to mind. You write out everything you experienced in a letter to a friend whom you wish to inform of these events.
The book of Luke, as with all the bible, is a copy or recording of what Jesus taught. When Luke sat down, he recorded what He saw and heart. Luke wrote His testimony. He witnessed to the Word of God.
The same was true of the ten commandments. God wrote on two stone tablets with His very finger His Word. The Word was recorded or copied onto stone tablets. The stone tablets were then called a testimony because they testify to the Word of God. In Exodus 31:18 (NAS), it says, "When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God." The stone tablets are a recording or testimony to the Word of God.
You are correct in saying the words Jesus spoke are the cake. Indeed, Jesus is the cake. However, the bible is the icing. The bible is a recording of Jesus. This difference may seem small, but it is immense. The words that came from Jesus were the words of God. The words that came from Luke were a recording of the words of God. This means that Jesus is God. His words are God's words. The bible, however, is not God. The words of the bible are not God's words, but rather a recording.
Immediately, when I highlight this truth, people become shaken, because they feel that if this is true, then the bible cannot be trusted. Of course, this does bring into question the validity of the bible. I believe with all my heart the bible is trustworthy. These men and women who wrote the bible did so under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit. As such, they were not acting upon their own facilities.
Even still, some people might say that proves the bible is the Word of God. But if that were true, then we also have to say all the writers were also God. Jesus Christ is the only person who ever lived that it can be said, "The words of Jesus are the very words of God." Are the words of Luke the very words of God?
God may use Luke to speak, as a vessel. He may use me or you to share His Word. You may stand up and preach to the Church and be used by God to speak His Word. In that moment, the Holy Spirit may fill you, and you may speak the God's Word. But no matter how many times that occurs, you will never be God. You will always be a vessel used by God.
The same is true of the bible. The bible is a testimony to the Word of God. The bible is a vessel through which the Word of God may come.
It was recorded by and for good reason.
I do agree with you. The bible was recorded for a very good reason, for reasons we may never know or understand. I also believe the bible is a gift from God, commissioned by God, and directed by God. However, even though this is true, it still does not make it the Word of God. The fact it is a testimony is also significant. God could have written out the entire bible Himself. However, He chose to use human beings. This is important.
To what will we appeal to? The often fuzzy notions mingled in with the ongoing renewing of our minds and hearts? Trust yourself and your own thoughts?
We should always make our appeal to Christ first. The bible then can be used as a way to test if what we are hearing is correct.
I do understand where you are coming from in this. My mind often travels in chaotic places. However, my best test has not always been the bible, but rather the very person of Christ as I know Him to be. Is this reflective of Christ? Even this, however, has loopholes, and so I used multiples things to test theories and doctrines. I pray first. I then ask if it resonates with what I know about my Savior. I check the bible. I present it before the Church. I continue to seek until Christ confirms the matter in me.
You also have to consider this when reading the bible. If you turn to the bible for all your answers, as the authority of all doctrines, then you face the issue of interpretation. How do you really know you are interpreting the text correctly?
Truly, we know if it is correct because of Christ in us. When we read the bible, the Holy Spirit explains it to us. However, what if in that moment you are not listening? We have all had moments where we thought the bible said one thing, only to discover later we were wrong. As we grow in Christ, we learn more. As time goes on, we learn that we know very little.
The only true way to know truth is to seek it. Jesus Christ is the truth. And so, if we constantly seek Christ, He will direct our path. We must place all our trust in Jesus. Otherwise, we could be misinterpreting the bible. Imagine the danger in that? What if we were misinterpreting the bible and were acting as a false teacher? Will not teachers and preachers be judged greater? We had better make sure, absolute sure, we have given ourselves over to Christ before we teach or preach, otherwise we are entering in a very dangerous ground. We are putting someone else's life at risk with our own.
If we really stop to think about it ... Better, a different approach. Brother, take away all the scriptures.
I have three responses to this. The first is this: I agree with you that the scriptures are significant. They are important for many reasons. However, this does not make them the Word of God. If the bible was the very Word of God, it could not be changed in anyway. It would be perfect and unbreakable.
The law is perfect and unbreakable. The law is recorded in the bible. The bible is a recording of the law. It is a testimony. If someone were to change a few words in the bible, would that change the law? No, the law will always be the same. The law is not restricted or contained by the material it is written on. The law is given by God, and authorized by God as well.
The scriptures are significant because they help deliver a message of truth. This message is preserved in the bible. However, this still does not make the bible the Word of God. The bible is a recording of the message. The bible is a testimony to the Word of God.
The Word of God can come through other things. It can be revealed to you directly apart from the bible. It can come to you from another person. It can come through documents other than the bible. However, we can always be sure that the Word of God will always be the same. Since it is the same, since the Word of God never changes, we can test all things against one another. If two or more come together in the name of Christ and agree, Christ is there. Likewise, if something you think disagrees with the bible, then obviously Christ is not there.
My second response to the above question is this: what happens when the bible is taken from us?
There may come a time when we will not have the bible. What will you do when you don't have it? What happens if tomorrow, the United States is overturned by apostacy, and the bible is banned? What will we do then?
The teachings of Jesus were recorded in the bible. The Word of God is recorded in the bible. However, the Word of God is also recorded in each one of us. When the bible is gone, the Word will still dwell in each believer. We will then have to trust in the Holy Spirit to recall it unto remembrance, just as the apostles did.
If Jesus truly lives in us, then we are walking bibles. We have the bible in us. Truly, it is nice to have it all written out for us. It is easy to be able to sit and read the words for ourselves, and then put a measure of faith in the bible versus our own understanding. By this agree. However, there are people who don't have or haven't had easy access to the bible. They truly had to live by faith, completeing trusting in Christ to lead them.
I hope we will always have the bible. I love to read it. The Lord has revealed so much to me from the bible. However, we must also be careful that the bible does not become a substitute for faith. There is a danger which is present in the Church where people are substituting a faith in Christ for a faith in the bible.
I am not saying this is you, my brother. I have never thought that of you. However, unless we all open our eyes to this reality and start teaching the truth, our fellow brothers and sisters will continue to walk wayward and we will be held accountable.
This is my appeal to the entire Church.
In Christ and love,
Blake
Hello there all. It's been a while since I've visited this site. I had a brief look at this discussion and would like to add my bit.
I believe that all the doctrines of the Bible are reasonable in themselves even though some involve unaproachable mysteries (like the Trinity). The doctrine of Hell, however, can be very easily understood by a couple of fundamental considerations.
1) The human soul is eternal. Nothing shall cease to exist unless there is that which contradicts its existence. To suppose otherwise is the same as affirming that there can be an event without a cause which is absurd. The human soul is not material in its constitution and owes its existence to God alone and this I believe to be quite manifest. God alone can destroy the human soul.
2) If the human soul is eternal then so are the natural consequences of sin. If the natural consequences of sin are eternal then so must the corresponding retributions for sin be else God is unjust.
Even if the punishment for each sin were not eternal yet the sinner should be in Hell eternally. Consider the following.
1) God in order to satisfy the demands of public justice (the good of his creatures) must punish sin. If he does not punish sin then His government would necessarily fall into contempt.
2) God judges the heart of man and not only the outward actions.
3) The sinner even after being punished will remain sinful. No sinner will ever be saved outside of the influence of the Gospel. I believe this point to be quite clear. The sinners punishment is to be cast into "outer darkness" where there is no positive moral influence whatever and thus will remain in a state of rebellion against God.
4) The sinner continuing in a state of rebellion against God will impel more and more corresponding retributions to be devolved upon him.
I hope this helps.
Another thing that I would add is this. I did not thoroughly look through all that was said, however, I did notice that there were no metaphysical arguments given in defence of this Biblical doctrine. The God-given nature of man requires us to look into the reason for things and longs for a fuller understanding. I would state that we should not satisfy ourselves with the fact that the Bible says such and such a thing to be true. I don't think that it was in the purpose of our God to stop us there. Let us enable ourselves to argue for the truth of Biblical doctrine on all fronts. I do not say that the Bible is not enough to prove that such a doctrine is true but rather that we should confirm our convictions that the Bible is indeed the word of God by subjecting it to scrutiny. The Bible has, can and will stand up to any honest scrutiny that we can give it. Also, there are some that will not believe that the Bible is the word of God when the doctrines contained therein are thought to be unreasonable. Let's not give philosophy and metaphysics into the enemies hands.
Please consider this link for a fuller presentation of the arguments just stated.
Sincerely in Christ Randy.
http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/4/Endless_Retribution.html
the 2 are intimately intertwined such that we must have both.
Thanks IRONMAN, that would have saved me a mile of typing that I just scrapped... Probably to momentous a task to attempt to draw out Blakes matters with the questions started here. Re-reading some bits on the other thread about this matter of the bible being God's Word (Or not), it just became endless semantics. It really needs no defending nor distracting from it despite Blakes overbearing approach or my silly attempts at trying to state the obvious. His point is not lost IF he would have kept it in the realm of those who are [i]using