Born Again... Process or Immediate ?

Being born again...

Is there a period of 'incubation' prior to the Spirit finally giving birth ? Or is it an all of sudden occurrence without birthpains, struggles, and period of time ?

'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.' John 3:6-8

As for the parable of the seeds and the good soil... plants do not grow as soon as they are planted... is this referring to being born again... or merely the fruits of a Christian prospering when the plants blooms ?

In other words... does salvation occur at inception, or fruition ? Or does salvation involve the entire process of inception and fruition ?

I believe that salvation occurs immediately when you repent and have faith. I think right then you are born again.

You will immediately become much more aware of sin when you are confronted by it. Your eyes will immediately be opened to sin and you will also have the power to resist it.

Not to say there are never struggles, temptations, or even times when you sin, but you will have the ability to see sin by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and will also have the power to resist it.

So I guess to sum up, I think you are born again right at salvation.

Sam,

....chosen in Him before the foundation of the world....(an immeasurable period of time)

...born of the Spirit...

Hallelujah

conception is in the Seed. The Seed has all there is to make from the egg what is programmed in the Seed. The Seed comes form God, be it plant or animal. A Seed of an Oak tree will produce and Oak Tree. That little acorn has all that is necessary to produce a full grown Oak Tree. The Seed must die before it can create The fruit of the Oak tree. The life is in the Seed. The Fruit is in the Seed. The fruit of the Oak Tree is oak balls and acorns, the acorns producing more Oak Trees.

The same is in salvation and the birthing. When we believe, the Seed, The Incorruptable Seed of the Father which is Jesus Christ, the same Seed put in Mary which brought forth Jesus Christ. That same Seed of Christ is planted in the believer and a new creature is conceived. That Creature is now the Seed of the Father planted in the believer which is the same as the egg from the Ovary of Mary.

The Seed was already planted in the ground and was resurrected and gives new birth to an already living egg. Now the living egg, the New Believer Has conceived and new life is born again in the believer. When the Seed is planted, it contains all that is necessary to produce The Nature of the Seed, which is the God Nature which is Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory. New birth, or born again. Now the new life must grow by the power of that Seed, The New Nature that is in the believer, or if you will the Living Egg Rebirthed, and in growing, it will now learn how to become what has already been programmed into the Seed by the Producer of that Seed, which is God our Father. I like to call it the whole bucket of Seed and Grace. You now have it, now we will grow in it and learn who we now are. Line upon Line and Precept upon Precept, working out this New Birth Salvation with Wonderful Fear and Great Trembling and the Fearfully and Wonderfully Made New Creature that our Father has produced. We Got it all, we are Getting it all and we will Get it all. A New Born Babe, already delivered, being delivered, and will be delivered. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

In Christ: Phillip

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

If we believe we are already saved and sealed in that salvation by the Holy Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip

Both :-)

"A crisis that doesn't lead to a process will become an absess." - Ron Bailey

"A crisis that doesn't lead to a process will become an absess." - Ron Bailey

I think I got it from George Verwer of Operation Mobilization.

:oops: Sorry my mistake. :-)

A full Bucket of Grace by birth, Growing in the Bucket forever.

In Christ: Phillip

"A crisis that doesn't lead to a process will become an absess." - Ron Bailey

John 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb, can he?

3:9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, How can these things be?

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, That everyone who believes into Him may hve eternal life".

Numbers 21:8 "Then Jehovah said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live."

The Lord, spoke to Nicodemus conserning the nature of the New Birth, it's divine origin, and it's mechanics being of the Spirit. But then he comes to the great questian of "how".

IN addressing the "how" of the New Birth, the Lord Jesus ultimately brought Nicodemus to Moses in the wilderness and the brazen serpent.

According to our Lord's teaching, the way we are "born again" is by looking to Jesus, crucified for our sins.

The Isrealites had sinned, speaking against Jehovah and Moses and God had sent serpents among them and they were bitten and dying. They confessed and repented and cried out to Moses and God commanded Moses to make a brazen 'firey" serpent, put it on a pole, and when the children of Isreal looked upon it, they lived.

This is God's way. They looked and they lived. They looked away to the One on the pole hanging their symbolic of Christ who was made sin on our behalf.

THe how of the New Birth is repenting (turning our heart) toward God, confessing our sin and lost condition, and looking to Christ, crucified for our sins on the cross. As we do, God applies the Blood of Christ and regenerates our dead spirit, enters into us and we become alive.

This is not a process we enter into, rather it is a once for all event. It is the consumation of a process of the Spirit's convicting, enlightening, and witnessing to the gospel leading us to confession and faith by looking to Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins.

While conviction and such are a process leading up to the New Birth, the New Birth itself is the end of the process and the beginning of the New Life.

The New Birth is a crises (in our experience) that leads to a process (sanctification and growth in life) but the New Birth is not an ongoing process. The New Birth is just that, a Birth.

I don't know many people walking around for 20 years still waiting to complete their first birthday. The New Birth brings the Life of God into us, and we grow in that Life from that day one with proper food, care, and protection. It is growth in that Life already recieved in the New Birth that constitutes the process of sanctification, transformation, and finally transfiguration.

Graftedbranch

"Truely, Truely I say to you, except a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it abides alone, but if it dies, it bears much fruit"

I think a difficulty many have is that we don't see the New Birth as a literal relatity. When the Lord spoke to Nicodemus, he used physical birth to show a literal reality. The New Birth is not a physical reality like returning to one's mother's womb, but rather a spirital reality.

God is Spirit. In His eternal nature He is Spirit. That is what He is. And to be born of God one must be born of the Spirit in the same way that we are physically born of our human parents.

The New Birth is a literal birth. It brings the Life of God into us and makes us children of God, with HIs Life and His nature. It is a literal reality. A life is recieved that was not there before.

To be born of the Spirit is to be regenerated, to recieve the Spirit of Sonship by which we cry "abba Father". And the Spirit literally bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

Just as Physical birth brings us into a physical life in this world, related to our parents by a communicated life, so the New Birth brings us into a relationship with God of Father to sons. We are literally children of God. Not in a metaphorical sense, not even by way of legal adoption and recieveing of privleges of sonship. But literally we are born of God, have His Life and will grow up into full sonship, fully conformed to the image of our Elder Brother, the Lord JEsus who is the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection among many brothers.

We need to have our eyes opened to see these things are not metaphores, but literal relaities. Not physical realities but no less real.

God is Spirit and not physical, Is He any less real? Of course not. He is God and He is Spirit in nature. Only in incarnation does He posses a physical body in Christ.

ANd in regeneration our spiritual birth is no less real and we are no less children of God than we are physically children of our physical parents.

A regenerated Christian is a literal child of God. No less a child of God than the Lord Jesus Himself except that the Lord Jesus Himself as the eternal Only begotton Son of God is the source of our sonship. That is it is His Life that we recieve and partake of His Sonship sharing in His relationship to the Father.

As the single Grain of Wheat, the lord Jesus as the Only begotton Son of God fell to the ground and died and in resurrection He has become the First Born Son of God among many brothers. The Only Begotton has become the First begotton.

He is the One who sanctifies and we are the ones being sanctified and both He and we are of One Source, the same source, the Fasther. And the issue of this is in bringing many sons to glory as Hebrews tells us.

For this cause He is not ashamed to call us brothers.

IN resurrection in John 21 He appeared to Mary Magdoline and said, "Go to my Brothers, tell them I ascend to My Father and their Father, My God and their God. The Lord revealed to Mary that we were no longer friends, no longer just diciples, we are brothers, sharing His Life and sharing His relationship to the Father.

Through the process of incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection, the Lord Jesus has dealt with our sins on the Cross and in resurrection imparts His LIfe into us making us sons of God, literally, sharing in His eternal, Divine, Life. We are literally children of God and as John says, "And children we are. It has not yet appeared what we shall be, but when He appears, we shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is."

We need to be clear on this. WE need to let go of the idea of symbolism and metaphores and have our eyes opened to see the divine realities. And we need to boldness to decare, "I am not just an adopted Son but I have the Father's Life. I am a genuine son of God. Abba Father".

And we are growing into His Likeness not by behavior modification, not by trying to act like God, but by the growth of His Life within us.

Graftedbranch

Graftedbranc wrote:
This is not a process we enter into, rather it is a once for all event. It is the consumation of a process of the Spirit's convicting, enlightening, and witnessing to the gospel leading us to confession and faith by looking to Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins.

While this is true, it takes away from the heart of the comment it is pointing to. "Birth" is not about "exiting the womb", and much as it is about "breathing after you've entered the world". Sadly there are many "spiritual STILL BORNS" and "ABORTIONS", because the "process" is neglected after the intial "crisis". This is the spiritual equivilent to dropping the baby into a rubbish bin, after it's born, and expecting it to live on the scraps it finds. That would be ludicrous, but sadly that is what often happens. New converts are not warned of the "persecutions" that attract toward those who "will live godly in Christ Jesus", for one example, and as a result, fall away disillusioned.

I thank God that someone handed me a copy of Winkie Pratney's "Youth Aflame" the day I put my trust in Christ. I knew that after reading the chapter on "Cleaning out the closet", if this "christian thing" didn't work out, it was because I hadn't repented....daily, of my sins.

"Birth" is not about "exiting the womb", and much as it is about "breathing after you've entered the world". Sadly there are many "spiritual STILL BORNS" and "ABORTIONS", because the "process" is neglected after the intial "crisis".

I would have to say that birth is about exiting the womb. That is what birth is. Although we cannot press the simularities too far in realtion to being born of the Spirit because in the Spiritual realm birth immediatly follows conception. There is no gestation period in the womb.

But the issue is one of life and possesion of Life. Not it's development, not it's nurturing, but the actual possession of Life and that is what the New Birth is about.

When John in 1 John 5 says, "God has given us Eternal Life, this Life is in His Son. He who has the Son, has the Life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life." There is no questian of degrees, or of health of life. Rather it is a matter of either being alive or dead. There is no partial life and no partial death. There are no in betweens.

If there is no life, no amount of feeding, no amount of nurturing, no amount of teaching can cause it to grow or be healthy. If there is no Divine Life, there is nothing to grow. But if theier is the Divine Life then no matter how feeble, no matter how small, how undectible, it is still there. Even if men cannot detect it, nevertheless it is there. There is Life. And if that Life is nourished and nurtured and fed, it will grow and become healthy. Actually it is not the Life that is unhealthy, but we are unhealthy because of the small amount of Life.

And so as to the New Birth. You are either born or you are not. YOu either have the life of God within you or you do not. Your dead spirit has either been made alive or it has not. IT is not a matter of process. It is not a matter of degree. It is an either or situation. "He who has the Son has the Life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life."

As to the experience of this Life, or it's growth in the believer, that is another issue altogether. If the believer is not nourished and fed and watered and cultivated, the Life will be stunted and it's growth hindered. But it is still there. And it is the Life of God and it is Eternal in nature and can never perish and can never be "unborn".

A new born may be coughing, weezing, malnourished, and unhealthy, nevertheless he is alive and there are no degrees of life.

But just as being born physically brings us into the process of growth so it is with the New Birth. The New born Babe longs for the pure milk of the Word. It can't do anything, it can only eat and drink. And it grows. And as it grows it begins to walk and finally to speak. It may be incomprehensable dribble, but it speaks. And as it grows it matures and finally becomes a strong young man. And so on. It grows up in all things into Christ who is the Head...

THe New Birth brings the Life of God into us. Sanctification, transformation, conformation are the processes through which this Life recieved is developed, grown, and matured.

Graftedbranch

Perhaps the reason we have so many "still-borns" is because they never remained long enough in the "womb of conviction." The result is a victim of the premature birth: a dying fetus. I've seen it so many times. The new "Jesus" experience lasts for a few months; they wear the t-shirts, have the flashy bible cover, they put the bumper stickers all over their car...but alas. When the high wears off, it's back to ground zero, and they're even more miserable and shackled to sin then they were before - proving scripture right.

"Birth" is not about "exiting the womb", and much as it is about "breathing after you've entered the world". Sadly there are many "spiritual STILL BORNS" and "ABORTIONS", because the "process" is neglected after the intial "crisis".

You point out: Exiting the womb is not necessarily a birthing of life. There must be an intake of air. So without the air, the birth is really a death process: a stillbirth.

In a spiritual stillbirth there has been a failure to receive the life-giving Spirit when expected. Perhaps this is something like the seeds that fell on unprepared soil. There may very well be some process of hidden beginnings, but when the shout sprouts it doesn’t last - the heart is not ready or fully prepared.

I refer to my first “salvation” as a stillbirth because when the “obstetrician” brought the hidden developing life into the open – there was no Spirit. It wasn’t God’s timing. Your word, abortion (premature delivery), is fitting. Man takes the baby from the womb in man’s timing, without waiting for God to bring about the birth. As you pointed out, there has not been an adequate time of preparation – like counting the cost, or many other considerations. Man tries to hurry it up. He tries to produce life that only God can, and he calls this being born again. No wonder we have so many who say, “Lord, Lord…” who are not His.

Friends, we must learn to value the process of gestation. God knows best.

I explain [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11241&forum=35&0]my story here[/url] I’m sure that there are many similar stories of how God brought about life after a stillbirth. I’d love to hear them.

Diane

roadsign wrote:
You point out: Exiting the womb is not necessarily a birthing of life. There must be an intake of air. So without the air, the birth is really a death process: a stillbirth.

Nice...that is exactly the point. You can repent until the "cows come home", but if the Spirit isn't received as a result of our "FAITH in Christ", then there is no LIFE. Did you know that New Age business manuals now refer to "metanoia" (the Greek word for "repentance") as a necessary ingredient for success? ANd not only that, but their understanding of the meaning of the word is better than most "christians".

I disagree that "Birth" begins in the womb. I believe that their are many who are "heavily convicted" in the "womb of repentance", who never "humble themselves" by "turning toward Christ". They many call on the "name" of the Lord, but it is really a "near perfect replica" of the "authentic God". It is of utmost importance that we allow the Holy Spirit to expose our adherance to "subtle errors" that are born of of "wishful thinking". Otherwise we will be sending many to hell by smiling as we pat the on the back saying, "Good for you brother, your saved!!"

In my Book, it's not until the "Spirit bares witness" that one is "Born Again".

Check out Keith Daniel's [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3994]The Spiritual Birth[/url], for some really good thoughts on this.

roadsign wrote:
I’m sure that there are many similar stories of how God brought about life after a stillbirth. I’d love to hear them.

Diane,

I think that it is the unspoken requirement of membership around here, to have similar testimony.:cry:

I disagree that "Birth" begins in the womb. I believe that their are many who are "heavily convicted" in the "womb of repentance", who never "humble themselves" by "turning toward Christ".

Amen! I believe the birth doesn't begin until the convert is pushed through the womb. But I believe the 'type' of womb one is birthed through is absolutely integral.

Great soulwinners like Charles Finney understood this. This is why they had "anxious benches" back in the day, where sinners under heavy conviction would groan in agony over protracted periods of time. The preacher would call them forward and they would just travail at the anxious bench as God was birthing them.

Sometimes it would take several hours. The Holy Spirit would deal with the individual sinner, bringing him or her under such great conviction and agony that it was not unlike like a woman going through true childbirth. Finney would just let them stay there and go through the labor pains. And when the birth finally came, it was glorious. Hardly any of these converts backslid; no one had teach them holiness or exhort them to not chew tobacco or get drunk. I've heard accounts that over 80% of Finney's converts went to the mission field. Ravenhill's ministry produced similiar accounts. Ravenhill believed like Finney, that the new birth was a slow and painful process, and that anyone who could speak of their new birth and not recall pain and despair during the process, well...was probably still dead in sin.

I think that when we talk about the womb preceeding birth, we have to understand the difference between being "awakened" and being under "Holy Ghost conviction." I believe the two are radically different. Whereas the former is purely emotional (which I believe makes up for the majority of the so-called conversions we see in churches and crusades nowadays), the latter is genuine, wrought by God's supernatural intervention. I think the genuine new birth is the most mysterious thing this side of heaven! Even Jesus didn't go into detail - He just likened it unto the unpredictable blowing of the wind. Men like Ravenhill and Bakht Singh doubted that more than 2 percent of professing Christians were truly born-again of the Holy Spirit! I used to scoff at statements like these, but now I'm beginning to see what these old saints meant. Many are called, yet few are chosen. This is very frightening.

God does not birth stillborns, nor is God the Father an abortionist. God our Father is not a Parent that neglects His Children. Likened unto our physical birth, if we have a good mother and father, we grow into adulthood, but life depends on obedience. If a child does not obey his parents, he will suffer and wind up a child in prison or on drugs of worse. The same goes for Gods birthed children, if we don't listen and learn by the Word and the Christ Spirit and Mind that is in us, being taught by the Holy Spirit, we wind up the same as our natural birth counterparts. But God is true and a gracious Parent, He will never forsake us or turn His back on us. He even birthed His Son in us that we would have the only chance of becoming true son's of God, by His Nature that is in Christ Jesus or new life and Lord.

It is not up to the child in the womb to be born, and there is no disbelief when the child is born, we know that by the first breath and sound we make. It takes God, our mother's and father's to give birth to a child, just like it takes God, the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to give us rebirth, one physical and one spiritual and even future physical new birth. The only difference in our first birth and second birth is we have to believe that God is now our Father by Jesus Christ in us and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Then the process of Birth is out of our hands. If God wants children in His house, is it not up to Him whom He will birth.

Once birthed into sin the spirit of Satan is our life and the soul and flesh will die in complete separation from God. Once birthed by God in Christ Jesus the soul will never die and we will get a new body just like Jesus Christ. In God's perfect timing, so shall we forever be with the Lord. The Spirit of Christ, our spirit, the soul redeemed and being taught by the Holy Spirit to be likened unto this Christ that is now our Spirit, renewed to the new man, the new creature, the old man cast down and never to appear again. The old man is gone but the memories of him in our mind must be renewed to the New Mind of Christ that we now possess. I used to be Carl P. Peterson, Now I am Carl P. Peterson Christ, don't get all upset, no Not Jesus Christ, But Phillip Christ, and God even has a new name written on a white rock just for me.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
God does not birth stillborns, nor is God the Father an abortionist. God our Father is not a Parent that neglects His Children. Likened unto our physical birth, if we have a good mother and father, we grow into adulthood, but life depends on obedience.

So what you are saying is that the reason why people lose children during childbirth, is that they are bad parents? I hope your not, but I also hope that you can se the logic behind this statement.

Phillip, I am wondering if you believe in the existence of "conterfeigt conversion"? Because this is the "still birth" tat I am refering to. The "abortionists" are "unskilled evangelists" who don't know the dangers of presenting the "pearl of great price" to and unbroken "swine" heart. True, God is not "anegligent parent", however in His wisdom, He often entrusts delivery of His children to "spiritual midwives" (aka, evangelists).

I hate to tell you this, but repentance isn't a garantee of salvation, and neither is "faith in Christ". It is only when "repentance leads to faith" that the Spiri imparts life. One can repent to "benevolence", as a "liberal Chritian" would, or "accept Christ" without repentance from dead works, and have "salvation" that isn't worth the money spent on the "decision card" that they fill out.

Siritual Birth requires "inhalation of the Holy Spirit". This is impossible without repenting of our allegeince to the world's philosophy and actions.

The embarking on the "process" is the "spiritual equivelent" to the baby's cry as the midwife spanks it's rear. It is evidence that the birth has occured. The two are unmistakably linked, and cannot be separated. We can discuss somantics of "what happens when", but the fact is that Christ said that we shall "know them by their fruit". Fruit cannot be seen without the process.

The still born in this world are a, is a physical thing that is a very deep trauma for those involved. I cry even when a kitten is still born. Making parents responsible for a still born is a cheap trick of the devil. That is most certainly not what I was speaking of. We are speaking of God and His new birth in the believer, not and earthly tragedy. If a believer is born from above, it is a born again experience of God not man.

There is no counterfeit conversion with God. There is man made conversions, but they have nothing to do with God. God allows abortion to show that man kills his own and that includes false believers, the anti-Christ.

How can anyone repent from dead works that doesn't even know what to repent of. True repentance comes from God revealing in the believer sins that we don't even know we have. Repentance is a works salvation in itself, so is water baptism, so is attendance at church, and on and on. You are speaking in earthly salvation terms and that is only salvation unto their earthly father the devil.

The faith of Christ is the only faith that is of God, all else is believing the chair won't break.

Spiritual Birth requires God, not man. Evidence of Spiritual is true repentance after conversion the rebirth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

The Fruit is from the Tree of Light Himself. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me".

In Christ: PHillip

Christinyou wrote:
Spiritual Birth requires God, not man. Evidence of Spiritual is true repentance after conversion the rebirth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

The Fruit is from the Tree of Light Himself. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me".

Phillip,

What you are describing is a PROCESS. You are saying the same thing tht I have been saying, while at the same time, denying the process. Salvation that does not lead to a process is [b]countefeigt conversion[/b] (ie, a [b]man-made[/b] replica of the real, that looks good, but [b]God is conspicuouly absent[/b]).

What you are describing is a PROCESS. You are saying the same thing tht I have been saying, while at the same time, denying the process. Salvation that does not lead to a process is countefeigt conversion (ie, a man-made replica of the real, that looks good, but God is conspicuouly absent).

This is exactly on target. Salvation leads to a process. And that process is also salvation. NOt eternal salvation, but salvation daily from sin, from self, from Satan, and from the world.

The New Birth is the beginning of a process. Not the process of the New Birth. But the New Birth is the beginning of the process. Just as beng born physically is the beginning of a process.

What is the process? It is sanctification, renewing, transformation, conformation, and finally transfiguration.

The New Birth brings the Life of God into us regenerating our spirit. From our spirit, the Spirit renews our mind, our will, and our emotions through daily taking the cross, denying self and being constituted with the Life of Christ.

And It issues in conformation to the First born Son of God as Christ is formed within us.

And ultimatly at the Lord's return, these mortal bodies will also be transigured and conformed to the resurrected body of our Lord. We shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is.

The new birth is the entrance into this process. It is a process of growth in the Divine Life, not unto the Divine Life.

It is a process of the growth of the Divine Life from within our regenerated spirit, renewing, saturating, sanctifying, and forming Christ in us.

And ultimatly this process will issue in our glorification.

This is the gospel and the salvation of the New Testament.

the New Birth is the beginning, not the goal. It is what brings the Life of God into us and begins this wonderful process which will be conpleted at our Lord's return.

Graftedbranch

Yes gentlemen the process started 35 years ago and when Christ was born again in me it was all of Him I would ever get. The Holy Spirit did not come in parts and pieces either, He was total also at baptism into Him sent by the Father and prayed for by Jesus Christ, that He would be in us forever. New Spirit totally Perfect in every way, The Spirit of Christ birthed in me. The Holy Spirit Teacher of this mystery. Thats why "he that is born from above cannot commit sin". It is not me but Him that makes me perfect, I am just learning this from the Holy Spirit. My mind is being renewed to the Mind of Christ. I have stumbled and fell, and the One who started the work in me has not and will not let me down, the more I trust in Him the more I learn of Him. I have to do it, but He give the desire and want to do it His way. The Love I now have for God the Father and My Savior Jesus Christ and the knowledge imparted from the Holy Spirit is of God, not of me.

Tiptoe around it all you want but it is God who is the nature of Himself in Christ that is in us and Only He will make us perfect as His Son is, if we see it and want it and allow it by His unction and union with us.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I will praise Him all the day long forever for what He has done, and by Him I receive all the reward I need, that is the desire of My Heart and that is to Love Him, that He might be able to know the Love of Christ in me and receive it back just as He gave it. That is happening and will be perfected one day when I stand before Him and am judged by Paul's Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

For now to Him "who is able to establish me", "I press on toward the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Established In Christ: Phillip

G.B. Wrote:

Quote:

"This is exactly on target. Salvation leads to a process. And that process is also salvation. NOt eternal salvation, but salvation daily from sin, from self, from Satan, and from the world."

We are already eternally delivered in Christ, we are being delivered in our soul, and we will be delivered in body.

Salvation is deliverance. 2 Corinthians 1:9-13 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: ((Who delivered us))??? from so great a death,and ((doth deliver:))??? in whom we trust that ((He will yet deliver))??? us; Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf. For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

Already delivered in Christ being delivered in the Holy Spirit and will be delivered When the Father gives us a new Body Like His.

Phillip

After reading everyone's posts I find myself in the position of trying to simplify the subjects that everyone has ended up complicating.

I see so many people write replies that are so deep that they never truely address the subject at hand.

That is one of the things that turn people off to Christianity. We complicate the simple matters, thus authoring confusion amongst the body. Harsh, but true.

Keith

I'm not saying that discussing the things of God and supporting them by scripture is unvalid, but that we often complicate the simple things, and confuse the unsaved around us in the process.

However, I choose to join in on the discussion, even though it appears to have settled down a bit.

My opinion on the subjuct is this:

Salvation comes from calling and believing upon the name of the Lord.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I believe that by this we receive eternal life. However as several people have stated, this now leads to a process. It is the process of laying aside the old self, putting on the new self, being renewed in the spirit of our mind and dying daily to this carnal world. Paul described this process as being a "living sacrifice". He also referrs to this process in Philippians 3:12 as he says, "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus."

Can a person think that they are saved and not really be saved? I think so.

I'd also like to point out that a person does not need to get rid of all of their sins before they come to Christ. Most Christians are deceived in thinking that the transformation must come before the conversion, when it actually comes as a result of it. The only prerequisit to receiving Christ into one's heart is to be a sinner.

But here is a quesion that I desire to hear some repsonses to, where does repentance come in? Does salvation come only after true repentance? Now remember, repentace is a complete turning away from. So let's say someone gets saved, received Jesus into their heart, truely loves the Lord but does not quit the sin that they are bound to, are they saved?

WorldView wrote:
I'm not saying that discussing the things of God and supporting them by scripture is unvalid, but that we often complicate the simple things, and confuse the unsaved around us in the process.

Anyone who regularly reaches out to the lost would know that sinners don't need any help to get confused, they're confused [b]my nature[/b]. After all, they can't make up their mind whether the Cross is "foolish" or "offensive". After all, if it is "foolish", then how could it possibly offend someone? And if it's "offensive", then obviously they can make sence of it, which would mean that it isn't "foolish".

Try witnessing to somone. One minute their telling you that they don't believe in God, and the next they object to this imaginary God casting them into hell. On minute they're telling you that they don't believe in the Ten Commandments, the next they agree that Liars, Adulterers, and theives, are bad people.

You are right, the things of God are [b]simple[/b], and don't need [b]complicating[/b]. The problem is, the various alternatives [b]are extremely complex[/b], and therefore can only be exposed for what they are by [b]silencing every arguement[/b] that they present.

This is kind of "off topic", but the issue has been raised. Bear in mind that most people who come here are Christian (or at least think they are ;-)). In the years that I've been here, I've seen many come and go, and yet there is a kind of unity that exists in our [b]minor disagreements[/b], that is virtually non-existant in most fellowships.

Perhaps this is part of the [b]process[/b] that our [b]crisis[/b] should lead into?

Hmmmmm.....

"Anyone who regularly reaches out to the lost would know that sinners don't need any help to get confused, they're confused [b]my nature[/b]. After all, they can't make up their mind whether the Cross is "foolish" or "offensive". After all, if it is "foolish", then how could it possibly offend someone? And if it's "offensive", then obviously they can make sence of it, which would mean that it isn't "foolish". "

I dont take offense but in that statent you imply that I am not one who regularly reaches out to the lost, which is not the case. But when we witness to the lost let us not replace the worldly confusion with religious doctrinal confusion.

Yes, most people who are lost are confused, and I am most certainly for sound argument concerning the scriptures, but in our argument she should not complicate the simple things which, I find many churches and religions do, which as I said, turns people off to christianity. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Galatians 5:24

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

==================

If you find yourself coming back week after week and confessing the same sins to God, you're not a Christian. If you are a true born-again believer, it requires you first to DIE to self, and DIE to sin with JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS.

Many many many people believe that we can just come into the presence of Jesus as we are as sinners, but Jesus says no, Repent, and only then you shall escape the fires of Hell.

To actually be crucified with Christ is the only hope of salvation. The initial step is Gethsamane, or 'The Crushing Stone.' This is where God lowers the stone on our lives, and we submit everything to God. Sports, Friends, Beer, Sexual lusts / desires, Idle talking, dreams for future promotion, everything must be crushed.

Only then can we live as children of the Most High. Only then can we live in victory. Only then can sinners look at Christians and be inspired. Only then will the church of Jesus Christ rise up and pull down the devils strongholds through spiritual warfare.

Still searching...
Sam

p.s. I'm currently in the process of transferring to Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Please pray for me...

WorldView wrote:
I dont take offense but in that statent you imply that I am not one who regularly reaches out to the lost, which is not the case.

No implication intended. Simply my observations as one who "regularly reaches out to the lost". Sorry if it sounded bad, and after rereading my post, I see how you came to your conclusion. My apologies.:cry:

But when we witness to the lost let us not replace the worldly confusion with religious doctrinal confusion.

This I tink is the key, and the hardest to avoid. For myself in this thread, I simply tried to reiterate that we are [b]saved[/b] by a [b]crisis[/b], in order to be [b]saved[/b] by a [b]process[/b], in order to be [b]saved[/b] from the ultimate [b]crisis[/b] of the [b]Judegement Seat[/b]. You've got to admit, this appears complex from the outside, but for those who cling to Christ, it's the simplest thing in the world.

On top of that, it took a while for me to realise that I was trying to pursuade someone who already agreed with me.

Yes, most people who are lost are confused, and I am most certainly for sound argument concerning the scriptures, but in our argument she should not complicate the simple things which, I find many churches and religions do, which as I said, turns people off to christianity. I have seen it with my own eyes.

It's funny you say this, because I have had many a conversation with sinners, where time was available (and patience) to break down each point of contention, one at a time. At the end of our discussion (which went for over two hours) the sinner commented, "This makes alot more sence than, 'Jesus died to turn God into a nice guy'." I discussed the same issues with Christians and have been accused of "sowing confusion". People as a rule don't like being duped, and appreciate dislosure.

I agree that "overcomplicating" things that need not be, is dangerous and futile. However, clarifying [b]subtle errors[/b] can make the difference between a [b]sound[/b] and a [b]counterfeigt conversion[/b].

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
It's funny you say this, because I have had many a conversation with sinners, where time was available (and patience) to break down each point of contention, one at a time. At the end of our discussion (which went for over two hours) the sinner commented, "This makes alot more sence than, 'Jesus died to turn God into a nice guy'." I discussed the same issues with Christians and have been accused of "sowing confusion". People as a rule don't like being duped, and appreciate dislosure.

I agree that "overcomplicating" things that need not be, is dangerous and futile. However, clarifying [b]subtle errors[/b] can make the difference between a [b]sound[/b] and a [b]counterfeigt conversion[/b].

Well said. I couldn't agree with you more.