Grace!

I don’t think this was meant to be a OSAS dispute, but I can’t resist inserting a few comments:

The context of the Hebrews verses quoted is about the Israelites in the desert – how they never entered the Promised Land because of unbelief. The writer uses them as a warning to the reader. These Israelites never did accept the Lord by faith. They never entered into his rest, even though they had walked in his blessings. They had Christ’s Spirit in their midst. They had knowledge, miracles,the fire and the cloud, blessings etc.

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
Even in Jesus day many walked with him, but fell away when they learned the cost. So it is with all today who taste of God’s goodness, enjoy the blessings of the fellowship, and learn of his grace but ultimately choose instead to trust in law (themselves) to be justified. They fall from grace because they remain in their unbelief even after they had the chance to have grace.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
God does not have a plan B for all who refuse plan A (after they receive the knowledge about it). There is not another sacrifice available. (Sorry!)

There will always be many, many who are sure they are saved, but they aren't, and you can't necessarily tell for a long time. They've learned to talk the talk and walk the walk. Some day it will be apparent:

“… They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” 1 Jn. 2:19

Just HOW is God’s grace sufficient?
How does God’s grace get us through day by day?
How does God’s grace keep us from falling into the sin of trusting in self and other temptations?
How does God’s grace give us hope?
Diane

J-bird wrote:

None of these verses tell me I can lose my salvation. Not one of them.

one does not continue in me,

Logic, I think this verse supports the many references to perseverance. It also supports Jesus' parable about the seed and the sower. A lot of seed looks like it's off to a good start, but ... well, you know how it goes. Only he who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Richard Owen Roberts says it well: What happens at the beginning counts for nothing. It's what happens at the end. There are a lot who seem to be in the kingdom because they are great camilions. Some day they will say, Lord, Lord.... but.....

It's time we stop handing out cheap eternal assurance policies! It's time we stop making replicas of Christ-followers!

A dog returns to its vomit, and a sow to the mud. And why not? Without true regeneration these are still the same creatures.

Let God's grace do its job! Then you will have the authentic!
Diane

lets not forget "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning," 2 Peter 2:20

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknoledge his name before my Father and His angels," Revelation 3:5

Yep the scripture is pretty clear you are not saved only by grace but also by the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit and the works he predestined for us to accomplish to lead us to perfection...

J-bird wrote:

They can't lose their salvation because God CHOSE them.

It' not that He is their Father, but, the relaitionship they have with Him.

I may always have a father but if I disown him, how will I recieve his inheritance?
I will not, I will refuse it.

J-bird wrote:

So if I decide my father is no longer my father, than that makes him no longer my father? :-o

For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8

Did the thief on the cross have time to do good works before he went to paradise?

Murray

P.S. I believe you must work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This is not the same as works.

When Jesus payed the ransom for our sins on the cross he was paying in advance. Right? He payed that debt before we were born or even thought of by our parents. He was also paying the debt for the saints that had already died and went to Paradise. Right? And he even payed the price for the thief who died with him.

Jesus payed for all our sins PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE. Yes!!! even the ones that we will commit in the future and if he has already paid the debt than why would he have to pay it again.

Wow, I thought that I opened up a can of worms when I started the thread on moral perfection!

I cannot help but notice that noone answered J-Bird according to his own logic. J-Bird has accepted the common theory that the atonement consisted of a payment of a debt. This teaching is completly absent from the scriptures. But scriptures are not used to arrive at this doctrine and so permit me to weigh the natural deductions of the teaching that the atonement consisted in the payment of our debt.

1) The atonement was made for all people. This is plain and let me note here that we are to look to the scriptures for the facts requisite to a proper understanding of this point. Some will postulate their peculiar teaching that the atonement consisted in the payment of a debt and at the same time will see that not all will be saved and then conclude that Christ only paid the debt for some people. We must not involve ourselves in this folly. The scriptures are plain the atonement was made for all people.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb 2:9

We can also see that the atonement must have been made for all people from the fact that God offers salvation to all people.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" Acts 17:30

"that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

"If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." John 7:37

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:22

There are probably a multitude of other verses that could be shown in this connection. The point is this. Could God be fair in offering salvation to all people or any people for whome there was no adequate atonement? It would be like saying to a poor man "Hey come over to my house for a feast it only costs $500". It would be a mockery.

2) Not all will be saved. This is plain from the following verses:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matt 25:41

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1st Cor 1:18

I do not feel the necessity of showing a multitude of verses here at this point because I do not think that any of you will believe that all are going to be saved.

My reasoning is this. If the atonement was made for all people and not all will be saved then the atonement could not have consisted in the payment of our debt because then God would be presented as damning millions to Hell when the debt of their sin was already paid!!!!!And that would be nothing less than preposterous!

For the same reasons the atonement could not have consisted in Christ suffering our punishment instead of us. What!!!!???? Does our good God damn milliions to Hell when the punishment for their sin was already carried out on the cross of Christ???? Wow, now I think that I have opened up an even bigger can of worms.

No doubt, if Christ paid the debt of our sin on the cross then we could never lose our salvation, however, that teaching would be just as forcful in proving that all will be saved. Likewise, if Christ suffered the punishment of our sins then we could not lose our salvation but if Christ suffering the punishment of our sins made it impossible for us to lose our salvation then it would also be impossible for anyone to lose their salvation and noone will be in Hell.

If it is accepted, then, that I am right in my deductions then the question will be asked "How then are we saved by the blood of the Lamb?". Good question and I will, for now, refer the person would like the proper answer to that question to the following:

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/4/EdwardsAtonement/edwardsindex.htm

I simply conclude that the atonement was

[b]a condition[/b] of salvation along with other conditions that must perpetually be fulfilled in order for salvation to take place. I see the conditions as such:

1) Repentance. Sorrowing over your sin and returning to obedience. This must always be fulfilled. If you fall into a state of rebellion then you fall from salvation.

2) The atonement. The atonement was designed to produce a respect for the law of God that would have otherwise been produced by the punishment of the sinner. In order for this respect for the law of God to be produced in the mind of the sinner by the atonement then the atoenement must be believed and so faith in the atonement is also a condition of salvation. There is more than just a respect for the law that is produced by the atonement. Righteousness is also produced.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" Romans 10:10

Please ponder.

The following words caught my attention, as they relate well to this debate (taken from Randy’s Signature):

Let it ever be borne in mind, that no passage or passages of Scripture prove any one doctrine which do not contradict every opposite doctrine.

Romans 8:14 tells us clearly who belongs to God. Those who are led by the Spirit of God, (they) are sons of God.” I inserted the “they” because I just heard this rendering in Ron Bailey’s sermon “Adoption” (found on SI) I had never before heard this verse as a qualifying condition of salvation. Until we accept that teaching, and until we walk in the Spirit and understand in the Spirit, we are just theorizing. Then we find ourselves assuming that “tasting the goodness of God”, “having knowledge of it”, making initial commitments, going forward, being missionaries, being zealous for God, being pastors, etc etc etc are indications of true regeneration.

Sadly, we have turned the condition of “salvation” into a lot of stuff that it is NOT. We have declared countless people saved because of what they did once, or because of some other qualifications based on our fragmented understanding. So no wonder we run into doctrinal snags. Truths don’t fit anymore, so we try to press something in to explain the inconsistencies (all those who obviously are “falling away”).

No where in the Bible does it outright say once you are SAVED, you can lose your SALVATION. But no where in the Bible does it give a specific formula for WHEN one is saved. (It is MAN who likes to do that) Jesus said that only the Spirit can give birth to spirit. “Like the wind, you can’t tell where it is blowing.” But since we can’t SEE the Sprit, we conjure up stuff that we CAN see, and use that as our qualifiers. (Yet God gives many qualifiers that we overlook.)

Until we really let God be God, and let him work in the lives of people in HIS timing, (which may take years), we will fail to comprehend related doctrines.

The names of His children are written in the Book since before time. At what point and through what circumstances his Spirit gives them HIS life is a process between God and his child.

Personally, I am reluctant to use such words as salvation, saved, or born again because, really, they have been redefined through chronic misuse.

Diane

No where in the Bible does it outright say once you are SAVED, you can lose your SALVATION.

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1st Cor 9:27

"Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 2nd Cor 13:5

Now here is a compelling argument. The word "cast away" is the same word as "reprobate". Jesus Christ is in you exept you be "cast away". Paul keeps his body under subjection lest he become "cast away" and "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9

"For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:13-14

Now the argument that I would draw from this verse is very simple. James threatens the "brethren" with God's judgement and states very clearly that faith without the works of the law cannot save you. Now it might be argued that "saved" is not talking of salvation but that is ignoring the obvious import of the text for he says "he will have judgement without mercy who hath showed no mercy".

I am possitive that a great many verses could be shown here where persevearance is a condition of salvation. Now it is plain that those passages would be completely meaningless unless there was the possibility of one losing their salvation.

There is another consideration – and that is the general condition of the church. Our modern day church closely parallels Israel’s history.

Roadsign, i totally agree with this. And the greatest tragedy is that we are pursuing all the 'stuff' in the flesh. Like Israel, we are doing works and calling it salvation, spirit, etc... Is there anybody with this witness in their spirit, that we are like Old Testament Israel, with all their works and services, so are we?

I have not read this whole thread but liked the title and will continue as I can...
thank you all
Rich

When do we receive our salvation? Really not till we enter eternity, right? So how can you lose something you don't yet have?

"...firm to the end will be saved." Mk 13:13

Clearly perseverance is required. Many rely on a false sense of eternal destiny when they don't have it.

Do we persevere because we are saved (how else can we persevere but by his saving grace?), or are saved because we persevere?

Rom. 10:9 "...you will be saved"
Eph. 2:5 "You have been saved"

Consider this:

"...hand this man over to Satan so that his sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of our Lord."

just some stray thoughts.........

Diane

J-bird wrote:

So if my relationship with my father goes far enough south than at some magical point he is suddenly transformed into a sonless father?

When you die, He will not get your inhatritance.

How far will I have to go before it finally happens? Is it different for some people but not others?

Can I jump across the line and jump back real quick like and still keep it? Or am I disqualified once I hit the ground on the other side?

[b]Hebrew 6:6[/b] [color=990000]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/color]

Hi everyone.

RandyJ,

J-Bird has accepted the common theory that the atonement consisted of a payment of a debt. This teaching is completly absent from the scriptures.

While I do not wish to enter into any prolonged discussion about this issue, I would like to put before us a few verses and the definitions of some words as I think they pertain to the assertion you have made. I hope this will be helpfull for our understanding.

Firstly, the word translated propitiation:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood

this is what Strongs says of the word:

Strong's Ref. # 2435

Romanized hilasterion
Pronounced hil-as-tay'-ree-on

neuter of a derivative of GSN2433; an expiatory (place or thing), i.e. (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple):

KJV--mercyseat, propitiation.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines expiate as: 1. To make amends or reparation for; atone: expiate one's sins by acts of penance

it defines reparation as: 1. The act or process of repairing or the condition of being repaired. 2. The act or process of making amends; expiation. 3. Something done or paid to compensate or make amends. 4. reparations. Compensation or remuneration required from a defeated nation as indemnity for damage or injury during a war

Now for Mercyseat. First a passage for context:

And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.

Following in this passage are two words, appearing several times:

Sin offering

H2403

khat-taw-aw', khat-tawth'
From H2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender: - punishment (of sin), purifying (-fication for sin), sin (-ner, offering).

Atonement

H3722

kaw-far'
A primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel: - appease, make (an) atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, to pitch, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liation).

Now the connection with the Mecry seat, or lid of covering:

And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times

It can be noted here that on either side of this Mercy Seat were

two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

they...

shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another

looking...

toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

And this Mercy Seat, or lid of covering, it was...

above upon the ark

and in the Ark was...

the testimony that I shall give thee.

Which testimony, or Law, had been broken.

Elsewhere the Law says:

Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.

Elsewhere scripture says that God:

repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

the word translated repay, according to Strongs is

H7999

shaw-lam'
A primitive root; to be safe (in mind, body or estate); figuratively to be (causatively make) completed; by implication to be friendly; by extension to reciprocate (in various applications): - make amends, (make an) end, finish, full, give again, make good, (re-) pay (again), (make) (to) (be at) peace (-able), that is perfect, perform, (make) prosper (-ous), recompense, render, requite, make restitution, restore, reward, X surely.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines reciprocate as: 1. To give or take mutually; interchange. 2. To show, feel, or give in response or return. --intr. 1. To move back and forth alternately. 2. To give and take something mutually. 3. To make a return for something given or done. 4. To be complementary or equivalent.

Paul says that Christ has:

...redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Another word for us to consider, Purchase. A verse from the Exodus concering the people of God, the Children of Israel

Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

Purchased, according to Strongs

H7069

kaw-naw'
A primitive root; to erect, that is, create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own: - attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

Elsewhere the scripture says

For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

and...

And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine; Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the Lord.

According to Strongs, the word Ransom is

H3724

ko'-fer
From H3722; properly a cover, that is, (literally) a village (as covered in); (specifically) bitumen (as used for coating), and the henna plant (as used for dyeing); figuratively a redemption price: - bribe, camphire, pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village.

Finally, the scripture says that the Children of God are

bought with a price

a

purchased possession

and redeemed with

the precious blood of Christ

It says that Christ

bare our sins in his own body on the tree

and when He had finished said

It is finished

or

G5055

tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

This became much longer than I intended :-(

J-bird, just out of curiousity, what do you think of these portions of holy scripture?

Romans 11,

21[b]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.[/b] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Read the context of these verses for greater understanding... It is absolutly clear Paul is exhorting the gentiles and the natural branch is reffering to Jews....

Also,

Matt. 10,

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What do you think of these things?

J-bird wrote:

What is the greatest motivator that satan has?

FEAR!!!

Also,
please Tell me what you think of the comparison I gave to the natural father so ralationship to God and a son of His that leavs.

Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Quote:
"""When do we receive our salvation? Really not till we enter eternity, right? So how can you lose something you don't yet have?"""

Wrong!,, "thou shalt be saved" does not mean in the future. SHALT 4982. sozo
Search for G4982 in KJVSL
swzw sozo sode'-zo

from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

"be, make whole, now, not future.

Also, "confession is made unto salvation"

Unto us not future either:

UNTO: 1519. eis
Search for G1519 in KJVSL
eiV eis ice

a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.);

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This shall be saved is not future either, but the same word as shalt.
SHALL 4982. sozo
Search for G4982 in KJVSL
swzw sozo sode'-zo

from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

When we believe, we are already there. We are saved. You must separate Body, Soul and Spirit. If not we can never understand our salvation, past, our being saved, present, our will be saved, future. Saved in Spirit by the Spirit of Christ in you. Being saved by the Holy Spirit renewing our Soul, that is the mind will and intellect and emotions to the Mind of Christ. Will be save in body on resurrection day with our new body like His.

Paul very seldom speaks of the Past or the future, he speaks of the now more often, Now we are in Christ Jesus, and now Christ Jesus is in us. Just a small sample:
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the (end) everlasting life.

End means finally to the uttermost, the last thing we will receive, resurrection bodies.

NOW: Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi all,

I have been following this discussion on grace and I would just like to share a couple of thoughts.

I believe the understanding of the saving grace of Jesus Christ is one of the most important things that any born-again Christian should understand. I do believe that true salvation from Christ saves us for good, but not because we deserve it or have done anything righteous, but just because of God's amazing grace.

I agree with J-Bird on this issue, but I believe it's very important that we support our beliefs by what we find in the bible.

Where does the idea of backsliding(loss of salvation) come from? Not all born-again Christians achieve the same level of obedience or working of God in their lifes and sometimes make grave mistakes. These mistakes lead to guilt, and this guilt leads to a sense of hopelessness and failure. In this regard we should remember Rom 8:1

Then there are also those who never got saved and return to their sins.

The bible says that the gate that leads us into salvation is narrow and we should make every effort to enter into it. That's important. Many unsaved people make efforts to enter in, but weren't able. For us that are saved, we know that we have entered in. All efforts should be over. We KNOW that Christ has saved us and we should live through his grace. We CAN know that we WILL go to heaven.

For those who aren't saved or unsure it is important to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. If you are saved and doubt, may Rom 8:16 become true in your life, that the Spirit of God will witness with your spirit that you are a child of God.

Just because we are saved it doesn't give us a ticket to sin as we want to. All the more we should live in the obedience and grace of God

Be blessed
Johann

To: J-bird and n7rooivalk7n

Where does the idea of backsliding(loss of salvation) come from?

It's not a case of backsliding, but a case of totaly departing from the faith.

David back slid but he never lost his salvation but Saul did. Saul totaly departed from GOD.

There is a story of a true born again believer that get angry with God and forsake Him even to the point of fighting again HIM. You can not say that he is still saved and going to heaven further more you can not say that he was never saved in the first place.

No, He didn't just loose his "reward".

Fear motivates a person to KEEP their salvation. The fear of going to hell. Right?

Would you want your wife only to saty merried to you out of fear that you would kill her if she left you?
My wife loves me and therefor stays with me.
[b]1John 4:18[/b] [color=990000]There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.[/color]
In other words:
There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with God punishing us.

As for the inheritance deal. We can lose our inheritance(reward) but we are STILL his son.

If you dissown your father and hate him, would you or could you recieve inheritance?

Please, Tell me from common sence, how this son i'v been writing about will keep his salvation but only loose his reward?

Quote:
As for the inheritance deal. We can lose our inheritance(reward) but we are STILL his son.
If you dissown your father and hate him, would you or could you recieve inheritance?

Please, Tell me from common sence, how this son i'v been writing about will keep his salvation but only loose his reward?

His salvation is not up to himself, also his inheritance is not up to himself either. It is all up to God. I don't receive an inheritance because of what I do, I receive it because of who I am in the Father by the Son. Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Loose salvation, I don't think so, it is not mine to loose. Just like I did not loose my birth and could not loose it, it was not up to me to be born.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:

His salvation is not up to himself, also his inheritance is not up to himself either. It is all up to God.

That is what ous salvation stands on.
If we turn from that, tell me what then?

I receive it because of who I am in the Father by the Son.

How can you be a son in the Father by the Son before salvation to recieve salvation?

Don't make sence.

Loose salvation, I don't think so, it is not mine to loose. Just like I did not loose my birth and could not loose it, it was not up to me to be born.

Think of salvation as a birthright through adoption as a son.

remember Esau?
Though you may be a son, you forsake your birthright.

J-bird wrote:

Saul never lost his salvation. He just lost his annointing as the leader of Israel. He paid the price for his rebellion.

David cried...
[b]Psalm 51:11[/b] [color=990000]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.[/color]

[b]1John 2:20[/b] [color=990000]As for you, you have an anointing from the holy One and have perfect knowledge.[/color]

This anointing is the Holy Spirit as in

[b]2Corinth 1:21-22, 5:5[/b] & [b]1:21[/b] [color=990000]Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath [b]anointed[/b] us, is God;
[b]:22[/b] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
[b]5:5[/b] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[/color]
and
[b]Eph 1:13-14[/b] [color=990000]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[b]:14[/b] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[/color]

If you loose your anointing as Saul did, it is the same as looseing salvation.

Did Samson lose his salvation? He died in much the same way as Saul. His rebellion caused his calamity.

There are plenty of verses that tell me I will be punished.

"""How can you be a son in the Father by the Son before salvation to recieve salvation?

Don't make sence."""

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now you are using semantics. I received sonship from the Father by the Son that is birthed in me. I did not choose to be a son and to be born again, I only believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The rest was up to My Father. He planted the Seed of my new birth just like my earthly father of my old birth, one earthly, the old man, the other heavenly new birth, new creature, new man. That new Seed is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

""There is a story of a true born again believer that gets angry with God and forsakes Him even to the point of fighting againt HIM. You can not say that he is still saved and going to heaven further more you can not say that he was never saved in the first place.""

Who are we to judge. With your quote, the Cross of Christ means nothing and it is all up to man whether he is saved or not, or whether he looses his salvation or not. This is why God had to send His Only Begotten Son, because none of us could make it any other way except to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. When a person is born again it is not just a couple of words used in the bible. Being born again is a new creature, and that new creature is now a Christ person, because of the Spirit of Christ that is now his life. There is only one way I could not have been born from my mothers womb, that is death, either aborted or the death of my mother before I was born. God is not going to die and He is not an abortionist. If God the Father went to all the trouble and pain just to purchase son's for His House, once He has birthed them He is not going to throw them away and they cannot leave Him, He now has His Nature in His son's, both birthed and adopted. That is The Spirit of Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit. If you think we are strong enough to brake the seal, I think you have underestimated God. That is a mistake that Satan will use in any life. The lie: you are god and you choose who you are going to serve and your life is your own to give or take away from God. This leaves a pretty pitiful picture of who our God is. Why every time someone says you cannot loose your salvation does the people of the lesser god come steaming out of the crevices and screaming, yes I can. Well its not up to them. If Christ was not enough to show that God is serious, and Justified in birthing His own children created in Christ Jesus for His Own House, then I don't know what is.

If you think you can loose your salvation, you either never had it or are deceived in your mind by the wicked one who ruled your life until your rebirth. You are saying God did not do and can not do what it takes to save His Children. Well I believe our God is even greater than this and we don't have but the smallest concept of Who He is and what He is capable of or we surely would not say if God has chosen to put His Nature in me by His Son Jesus Christ, who bought and paid for me, who am I to say I can get rid of it if I want to.

If God has chosen for me to be in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Just because I believe what He says about His Son, then it is not for me to say no. Ok, crawl out of the cracks and crevices and prove me wrong. Our God is One God and this is His Creation, He will do with it what He wants and chooses for His Glory, not what I choose to think or do. Go to Hell, loose rewards, loose salvation, only if God says so. But He has said, I have done it all, If you think you can choose go ahead and try.

Do people truly think sin can keep them from God. The Cross of Christ is the answer, God is justified to do what ever He wants. Ecc 5:6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it [was] an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands???
Old and New: Exd 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

If God has power over an honorable vessel, it will be honorable. If not I guarantee it will be dishonorable.

In Christ by the Power of God to an honorable vessel: Phillip

J-bird wrote:

If I thought I had to keep my salvation I would be a basket case. I would never have any peace. My mind would be filled with terror and I would never sleep again.

But, you seem to be doing a graet job so far with your salvation. ;-)

It isn't that mind bogling if you understood Love. [b]1John 4:18b[/b] [color=990000]He that feareth is not made perfect in love.[/color]

I will pray for you.

J-bird wrote:

I appreciate the prayers but your wrong brother.

I know me, and I know that I could'nt keep it. I'm too sinfull and vile.

Do you not understand that we are new creations and no longer sinners?

Do you not understand that it is the Love of God that keeps us.

Our love for Him, for He first loved us, is what keeps us depending on Him.

of course, we all live by the grace of God every day, and it is by that grace through faith.

No one is strong enough and "all our works are as filthy rags, b[]BUT[/b] He has cleansed us and given us His righteousness and when we are weak HE is strong, [b]that is why[/b] we love Him to much to depart from the savlation He offers.

I am not saying that Grace is an desereved, but that [b]He gives us free will to depart from him, otherwise it isn't grace nor true love.[/b]

Could you please explain this

If I thought I had to keep my salvation I would be a basket case. I would never have any peace. My mind would be filled with terror and I would never sleep again.

God is Love and this is the fruit of our salvation.
[b]The [u]fruit[/u] that we bear is born out of this love.[/b]

This is the work that James talks about.
[b]Notice
Jam 2:15-17[/b] [color=990000]Suppose a Christian brother or sister is poorly clad or lacks daily food,
[b]:16[/b] and one of you says to them, "I wish you well; keep yourselves warm and well fed," and yet you do not give them what they need; what is the use of that?
[b]:17[/b] Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.[/color]
Compair this with
[b]1John 3:17[/b] [color=990000]But if any one has this world's wealth and sees that his brother man is in need, and yet hardens his heart against him--how can such a one[b]continue to love God?[/b] [/color]
So you see that the work of faith is love.

This is what Jesus is talking about here when He gives us a choice to abide in Him.....
[b]John 15:4-12 [color=990000]Abide in me,[/b] and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[b]:5[/b] I am the vine, ye are the branches: [b]He that abideth in me,[/b] and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[b]:6[/b] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[b]:7[/b] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[b]:8[/b] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[b]:9[/b] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: [b]continue ye in my love.[/b]
[b]:10[/b] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[b]:11[/b] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[b]:12[/b] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.[/color]

Some thoughts I want to add:

Logic wrote:

[i][size=xx-small]"I am not saying that Grace is an desereved, but that He gives us free will to depart from him, otherwise it isn't grace nor true love."[/size][/i]

I don't believe that we have a complete free will. Regardless of the choice to sin or not to sin, all humans WILL chose to sin and we are all far from God. Regarding salvation, the bible says that none of us are searching or wanting to get saved. God, from His side died on the cross for our sins and made amazing grace possible. He pulls us towards Him and does the salvation work. "Our choice" doesn't save us, it's God's grace that saves us. True love is Joh3:16, that God would save us through grace and pay the ultimate price, while we were yet hell-deserving sinners. (Rom 5:8)

Logic wrote about Joh 15 that speaks about us abiding in the Lord. It is important to abide in the Lord. God made us to have a relationship with Him. However, there are times when we don't pray and read bible and seek the Lord as we should. That doesn't mean that He cuts us off and sends us to hell immediately.

God gives us the assurance. We CAN know that we WILL go to heaven. We just have to let go and allow Him to do the work in us. Total surrender. If God is not in control, then we run into problems.

Hi everyone.

n7rooivalk7n, how are you?

I don't believe that we have a complete free will.

I think this is an important point concerning this whole thread. Since you mentioned this, I hope it is alright if I share some opinons on it?

I think we all agree that we have a [b]will[/b]. :-D

What we probably do not agree about(though not only) is the nature of our will, whether it is free, or partialy free, or not free at all.

My opinion is the last one, that our wills are not free at all. The best way I understand to express this is in what Jesus said concerning sin:

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

the Master goes on to say:

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

So, what are we to make of this? I think it would be helpfull to refer here to how the Apostle Paul described himself, after I believe, he had been set free by the Son. He called himself

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ

According to Strong's this word is

Strong's Ref. # 1401

Romanized doulos
Pronounced doo'-los

from GSN1210; a slave (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary; frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):

KJV--bond(-man), servant.

Elsewhere he says that

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

So, if we compare these things and take them together, could it be then that the freedom of which our Lord was speaking, was not only, or altogether, or in essence, a freedom to choose, but rather it is the freedom of choosing righteousness?

If I may tread carefully here, I think this is ultimately the [b]only[/b] [i]freedom[/i] a creature can ever have. Consider the glorious liberty of His own Being Who

cannot lie

yet will anyone say there is no 'free' will with Him?

Job, during his great afliction said

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Some thoughts about this,

Chris

J-bird wrote:

Do you still sin? That makes you a sinner.

If you bark, does that make you a dog?

No, a dog is a dog and therefore it barks.

same as if you sin, it don't make you a sinner.

A unsaved person is a sinner therefore he sins.

The only differnce between you and a lost person is your a SAVED sinner.

Again, wrong, we are a new creation and made alive with a a new spirit and that is why we are not sinners any more.

A lost person is dead spiritualy and that is the root cause of his being a sinner.

If you offend the law in one area than you've offended in all areas.

[b]Romans 8:7-8[/b] [color=990000]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[b]:8[/b] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[/color]
Those who walk after the spirit do not offend the law but only those who walk after the flesh.

Have you stayed sinless since your conversion? If no than you are a SINNER guilty of breaking the WHOLE law.

"I am not saying that Grace is an desereved, but that He gives us free will to depart from him, otherwise it isn't grace nor true love."

We do have a choice to depart from him. the is a freedom of our will that we do have.

May I ask how old you are?
How long have you been saved?

J-bird wrote:

Are you saying that we get saved because we love Jesus? Because that would be unbiblical.

I hated God before I was saved, however, I knew that I was a sinner because I could not keep Gods' Law and was by nature a child of His wrath, just as other people are.

Then I found that I could be saved from His wrath through Jesus.

So then I accepted His sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection
and God, being rich in mercy, because of the intense love which He lavished on me, even while I was dead in transgressions, He made me alive with Christ

Think of our salvation not as a thing, but a relationship.
[b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000]Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]
Eternal life means to know Jesus.
To know Him is to love Him.
Don't get me wrong, Salvation is [b]VERY[/b] dificult to loose, never the less, people have divorced God, left him because of suffering comes, or persecution because of the word.

[b]Matthew 13:20-21[/b] [color=990000]He who has received the seed on the rocky ground is the man who hears the Message and immediately receives it with joy.[/color]
They got saved...
[b]:21[/b] [color=990000]But he does not have root in himself, and he goes on for a time and stumbles and falls.[/color]
the only one in these parable that doesn't get saved is the stony ground.

Lets say that a man becomes saved, then stumbles and falls and through time he hardens his own haert so much that it is almot imposible for him to repent.
Then He dies in that state being turned away from Jesus, which is Eaternal Life, what do you think?
[b]Romans 6:8[/b] [color=990000]But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him,[/color]
But, if we die with out Christ,(because we left Him) we will not be raised with Him.

How old are you?
When were you saved?

Amen, I agree with you toaly.
J-bird wrote:

Logic, there is a fine line between legalism and liberty.

But the main point I am making is that if one turns away from God and stay out of relaition with Christ and dies in that unrepentant state, He has no Eternal life because died not knowing Jesus(John 17:3)
The word "knowing" is present active.
We need to keep knowing Him, abiding in Him.

I disagree with that interpretation of the parable of the sower.

About 90% of the parables are to the Jewish nation they have nothing to do with us.

J-bird wrote:
I disagree with that interpretation of the parable of the sower. I'm very aware of the whole Ray Comfort teaching on this but don't agree with it. By his interpretation if I'm not doing good works or reading my bible every day like him, than I'm not really saved. That's heresy. Nowhere in the bible does it say that if I don't read my bible every day I've not got the real thing.

No it's not if you do these things then you are saved, but if you are saved you will do these things. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteousness" 1 John 3:7

So how do we know those that have been made righteous through Christ? Because they are doing righteousness. by their fruit you will know them, right?

Hi All,

I very much share JBirds views, because I have a very similar testimony of falling into legalism and then being set free of it.

Interpretation of the parable of the sower is simple according to me. All the seed that didn't fall on the good ground were people that never got saved. They only had the appearence of being saved. But ALL the seed that falls in the good ground perseveres to the end. They truely got saved.

One more thought. Here is a test for legalism. Why do you do anything for God? To be saved (stay saved, not backslide), or because you ARE saved? Think about it!

Look at what Jerhimia says:

[i][size=xx-small][font=Arial]Jer 20:9 Then I said, I will not mention Him, nor speak in His name any more. But His Word was in my heart like a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with holding in, and I could not stop[/font][/size][/i]

Hi Lazarus,

He never got salvation, because he had an unconverted heart. After the king took away his debt, he stopped another person in the street and demanded to be payed immediately. The bible says that those who are saved will bear fruit. He never bore any fruit. He was just glad to get off the hook, he never had Godly sorrow.

God wants to save everybody, but He can't because He is righteous. Salvation is totally and utterly from God and damnation is totally and utterly from man.

Two more thoughts. The bible says clearly that we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. If we are and we still struggle with overcoming sin, it should be a motivation for us to stop sinning through God's power. If we never got saved it should be a motivation to seek salvation. How can we know if we are in the faith (saved)? Rom 8:16 says that the Spirit of God will witness with our spirit that we are saved(children of God). The confirmation comes through the Holy Spirit. The bible speaks in many places of the Spirit of God that gives life. It is the Spirit of God that gives us the rebirth. That which is born of man is carnal and dies, but that which is born of God is eternal and doesn't die.

Have a look at Rom 8, but also the whole of John and 1 John

Be blessed!

Interesting question Jesse,

I agree with n7rooivalk7n on this in the sense that that this man was not converted. It's a most interesting passage of scripture in Matthews 18.

26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

Note that there was no real repentance. He simply said be patient with me and I'll make it up to you. In this case, the forgiveness preceded the repentance but the repentance never came. It's one of the most heartbreaking stories in the scriptures because this man chose to try and make it up to the Lord rather than simply repenting.

Had he truly repented, he would have not treated this other man the way he did. I believe this man's primary sin was not unforgiveness but pride. He really thought he could make it up to God and regardless of what it took He was going to make it up to God, even if he had to run over some poor peasant to do so. That's a heart full of pride. Don't you see Lord I'm a winner and I can pull this off... (The reason I can readily see this is that it has been me for much of my life. Praise God for repentance.)

I used to believe that to make it into the kingdom of God I had to get past the devil but am finding that I must get past myself.

Just my two cents for what its worth...

Hi guys,

I have to agree with n7rooivalk7n when he says that the seed that fell NOT on good soil is people that never got saved but have the appearance of salvation. If you are saved you will (or should) have the lifestyle and the fruits to prove it.

J-Bird,
Earlier you mentioned that the Laodicean CHURCH was dull and sitting on the fence but still saved. If Jesus said that he was going to spew them out of his mouth, do you still consider that 'being saved'? How can you dabble in worldiness AND in the heavenlies? Didn't Jesus say that if you're not for me, you're against me?...making them an enemy of God? How can they serve two masters???

Good comments and testimonies that you guys gave there!

I can't agree more with the thought that we should die to ourselves. I too can testify of occations in my life, after my salvation where I made big mistakes and tried to make it up God. With my lips I would say that I know it's the grace of God that saves me, but with my heart I wanted to proove something.

The graceful gift of salvation is so tremendous that we can sometimes fall in the trap of trying to contribute to it. But wrongly so! We just have to receive it! Accept it! You can compare it to a dad giving his kid a birthday present and the kid being so impressed by the present that he wants to pay his dad for it. Any dad would be grieved even at the thought of it!

How love and grace don't complement each other!
Be blessed!

One last thing. Any thoughts on Rom 8 and the powerful salvation work brought about by the Spirit of God, versus a carnal conversion that can never last? It is the Spirit of God that makes us alive.

Love you guys and love this forum!