Rick Warren to Preach in Communist North Korea

In fact i already know whats he is going to preach........

CAPITALISM!

simple and plain.....he will convert many and get a real big mailing list...asking for money, here by my book.....

"God had a plan for your life......."he wants u to prosper, to be happy, to be real cool, to be like the South Koreans"!!!!

ahhh and if he preached the pure and un-adulterated gospel well im truly not a prophet lol.

Yeah ill pray that he doesnt even make it there, to spread that so called "gospel" he has. Or that he ges converted on the way.

ciao

W.D.J.D
AMEN
WYATT

Figured I'd post this to let everyone chew on for a bit.

[b]Calvary Chapel Rejects Purpose Driven
and Emerging Spirituality [/b]
June 16, 2006 - Costa Mesa, CA: Last week at Calvary Chapel's annual pastor's conference, founder and Senior Pastor Chuck Smith announced that Calvary Chapel was rejecting various movements and practices that have been taking place within the Christian church at large as well as in some Calvary Chapel churches. According to a number of pastors who spoke with Lighthouse Trails this week, Smith asked that those Calvary Chapel pastors who were going in the direction of the emerging church would no longer call themselves Calvary Chapel churches.

This week a notice was placed on the Calvary Chapel Distribution website recalling Chuck Smith Sr's book, When Storms Come (which had been tampered with). The notice also stated: "The teaching and positions of Rick Warren have come into conflict with us at Calvary Chapel. Pastor Chuck has directed us to discontinue this product effective immediately."
Both Purpose Driven and the emerging church promote contemplative spirituality, which is a belief system that is contrary to biblical Christianity. Popular authors such as Richard Foster, Brian McLaren, Rick Warren, Henri Nouwen, Brennan Manning and many others teach contemplative spirituality (also known as spiritual formation)
Here is an official statement more concerning emrging churches
[url=http://www3.calvarychapel.com/ccof2/parsontoparson.pdf]Calvary Chapel Document[/url]

My wife is Korean and South Korea is much like North America. North Korea, however, is much different and you will likely be killed if you claim to follow Christ. The revival in Korea actually started in the capital of what is now North Korea.

There's many problems in the church in South Korea. My brother-in-law, who is a Korean Presbyterian minister who immigrated to the U.S., said that many in Korea become pastors simply because it's a very high paying job, not because they were called by Jesus. They certainly need our prayers, probably much more than those in North Korea who are suffering. God's hand won't move in our lives as long as we insist on saying we're rich and in need of nothing.

May we keep both of these countries lifted up. I'm praying that God will bring revival to all of Korea one more time.

brethren
in as much as i don't agree with much of what Rick Warren teaches/preaches, we must remember that the plan of God which is to glorify Himself in and through His Church marches on. He will call to repentance as many as He will and by whatever means He sees fit. the way it is is simply that in spite of ourselves, the plan of our Lord marches on somehow. it remaines to be seen how our Lord will use this because this in fact is something He has made possible for his own glory, but if out Lord can use an ass as He did with Balaam to get His message across, Rick Warren, you or myself even with all our shortcomings will be powerful tools in the Master's hands.

i pray ouf Lord's will be done in Korea. AMEN.

Hi everyone.

Brothers...

I know they're going to use me," Warren said, responding to a question about whether he was concerned that the invitation could be a set-up, a ruse to draw out Christians so that the government could punish them.

I think this is a serious concern. What good, or benevolent, or even benign reason could the North Koreans have for allowing this? Beloved, before I believed that this nation had any sort of change of heart concerning the preaching of the Gospel or the worship of God in Christ, I'd expect they would

Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance

so to speak, concerning our brothers and sisters in chains for example, perhaps setting them free?

Since, according to this article, Mr. Warren says

"So I'm going to use them."

we might all the more then pray that those who might genuinely be seeking after Christ would not fooled, and that God would reach them and feed them the Bread of Life by the hands of His [b]true wheat[/b] which he surely has hidden in even this nation's barn. And we should pray for them also, that they be not even tempted to be fed in thier wilderness by any other than Christ, the rock Who follows them.

I would humbly suggest this, anyway.

I think this is a serious concern. What good, or benevolent, or even benign reason could the North Koreans have for allowing this?

The real movement in China is in the underground churches and I'm certain that will happen at some point in the Western world as well.

From watching others in attacking Lazarus's preaching ministry on this forum, caused me to realize first hand how ugly it is for someone to attack a brother/preacher even when one doesn't agree with his preaching style.

I am deleting my previous post in regards to 'attacking' Rick Warren's ministry,even though I totally disagree with his writings and messages, but to leave the judgment in God's Hands with them.

May God overlook that post had I offended Him with it.

mamaluk

I thought I would post this for all to read.

"When you go in they have to loosen up on religious freedoms," Warren said. "They have to just by your presence. It's like Mandela going into a country. Automatically people start loosening up."

Suzanne Scholte, chairman of the North Korea Freedom Coalition isn't so sure.

"This is a Satanic regime," Scholte told Chad Groening of American Family Radio, "and to go in there and believe that you could actually preach freely is an illusion. It won't do anything to help the church. It will only put the true church at risk, and it will be used as a propaganda piece by the Kim Jong Il regime."

Warren said he is aware that some might misinterpret his visit as an endorsement of the North Korean regime.

"When Billy Graham went to the Soviet Union, there was a lot of criticism of: 'Well, they're using you.' And he said: 'Well, yeah, they're using me, but I'm using them too.'," Warren said.

Graham was criticized following his 1982 visit to Moscow for letting himself be used by the communists when he said he had seen no evidence of religious persecution by the Soviet government and observed that religious freedom was somewhat greater among the people than he had anticipated.

When preaching at the Yelohovski Russian Orthodox Cathedral, Graham exhorted his audience to be better members of the communist state: "God can make you love people you normally would not love. He gives you the power to be a better worker, a more loyal citizen because in Romans 13 we are told to obey the authorities."

Scholte questions what message Warren will be allowed to deliver.

"Kim Jong Il has set himself up as a god. Is he going to say, 'Kim Jong Il is not your god – God is God'?" she asked. "They are raised to believe Kim Jong Il is god and that the God we worship doesn't exist. And so, what is he going to preach?"

Since 2001, North Korea has been designated a "country of particular concern" for violations of religious freedom. Its citizens may not belong to unauthorized religious groups, and believers who proselytize or have ties to evangelical groups in China are arrested, tortured or executed, a 2005 State Department report said.

Given North Korea's history of persecution, Scholte's fear is that the government will use the crusade to identify Christian believers who will be "rounded up and sent to a political prison camp" once Warren leaves the country.

Hi Habakkuk and everyone else.

I don't pretend to know the heart of this evil dictator but China has the Three Self Church, which is sanctioned by the government. Perhaps Dictator Kim is imitating his comrades in China?

As a sort of aside to this thread, when I saw the refrence to the Three Self Patriotic Church I remebered something I read in the February 2006 VOM newsletter and thought I'd share some of it here. No particular point to make here.

According to the article, some of the tenets of this church are:

[b]One has no ability to have faith[/b]
[b]There is no hope of salvation[/b]
[b]Athiests are in heaven[/b]

and...

[b]Socialisim, China, The Communist Party and the government must be loved/supported above all else.[/b]

those were a few they listed.

Yeah, I heard that the Chinese govt., also removed Genesis and Revelation from Bibles, is the devil 'cunning' or what! Talk about spiritual darkness in the high places..

The saddest part, is that people fall for it, hook, line, and sinker!!!
I also wonder why is Rick Warren the spiritual head of Rwanda now, which basically equates with head of Rwanda. Why does his P.E.A.C.E. program look just like that of the U.N.? And why did Jesus say "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. Lu 6:26"? or "that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."
Simply some questions to answer.

Matthew 24:24 (kjv)

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive [i]the very elect.[/i]

Unlike in the days of Hudson Taylor, a ministry by poverty and perils. In the present time, it is often the glamor and sensationalism from America, by prosperity and media hype that draws crowds. I'm sure in time, all will come to the true light. Rick Warren will not be the first or the last false prophet if indeed he is one.

If Mr. Warren's message is a false one, the North Korean government, under the 'satanic' regime will obviously not mind. Just as in China, Satan knows what he's doing, he even arranges his own version of 'bible' for the Chinese 'churches'.

Consider this also, that the North Koreans have heard the real Gospel for years, even just from their South Korean brothers, that's why, this whole Warren thing is perhaps only going to be an exciting and sensational American celebrity show case for them, I'm sure the 15,000 souls will be sent home with a great deal of heart-warming 'hope' by Mr. Warren, whatever the kind of hope it may be.

Just mumbling my 2 cents on a Saturday evening,:)

Regardless, our God's sovereignty over all the nations will reign, please come quickly, O Lord !

mamaluk

Was thinking about this again...

Warren said North Korea would allow him to preach in a stadium seating 15,000, but that he could preach in a larger venue...

[b]...if he could fill the seats.[/b]

Again, the concern here about motive and what this could mean for our true brothers. Who knows what reasons they may have to attend this or expose themselves to being discovered. So I wanted to encourage us all to remmeber to pray for them.

Oh, yeah, I totally forgot about that (praying for the true brethren). Being discouraged is not going to help for sure.

Will be praying. :)

bartle

It would be just fantastic if an evangelical pastor was to be allowed to preach in North Korea. Unfortunately that is not Rick Warren. He is the author, and promoter of the foulest false gospel to invade the church in many many many years.. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Blessings to all Greg

Hi Brother Bartle,
I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. I was estatic to hear about Rick Warren going to North Korea and I will DEFINITELY be praying.

I hope that you guys have not missed the point here. I grew up in South Korea (8 yrs old to 18) and no one EVER goes to North Korea. This is TRULY a miracle!! (I heard of a man that defected to North Korea instead of out of it, and they later found his decapitated body floating in a river). I've stood at the Demilitarized Zone and looked into North Korea and listened to their propaganda and it was so strange to see a group of North Korean tourists looking back at us. It was like looking over into a different world, and being separated only by a line on the ground.
When I was 17 (10 yrs ago) I had the opportunity to visit Dandong in China--a city on the northern border of North Korea. That border is not as guarded. It was the dead of winter and there were no other tourists there but us. A boatman offered to take us out on the Yalu River "really close to North Korea" for a sum. He took us so close to the opposite bank that I could have jumped out and walked right in. We saw some North Korean boats on the river and we shouted Korean phrases at them. I don't think they heard us over the roar of the engine. Back at the hotel, we turned on the TV to catch North Korean television. It was a creepy experience. At the time I spoke Korean pretty well, but I wouldn't have understood hardly a word without the Korean subtitles. The accent was really different. And, weirdest of all was that the programs were COMPLETELY propaganda! The people were quite literally praising Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il as gods.
The point here is that God has worked a miracle in opening this door. We should pray fervently for Rick Warren and the words that he will speak. I live here in Southern California and know some people that know him. I don't agree with everything in his books, but I know the man is truly a believer and I will be praying for him that God would order every word that comes out of his mouth.
It is true that this will make things more dangerous for the believers in North Korea, but I think it will be a huge encouragement as well. I met a man that had been able to get into N. Korea on a tour and "strayed" a little from the tour to meet with underground believers. It was a terribly dangerous thing to do (I would not suggest everyone do that), but the believers wept as they all shared communion together--"we didn't know anyone on the outside cared. We are so encouraged to know that people are praying for us" Can you imagine being in their shoes?
Bartle, thanks again for sharing this. I will be praying. I haven't been to S.Korea in more than 7 years, and I would gladly go back (or to North Korea if God opened the way). I LOVED korea! I'll never forget waking up at 5 am with my mom and seeing the churched dotted across the city with lighted crosses on them to guide people on their way to early morning prayer. North Korea opening would be the answer to many of those prayers.

Love
Phebe

bartle

Nothing would thrill me more than to know that the GOSPEL is being preached to the masses anywhere in the world. God has never failed to bring the GOSPEL wherever He has wanted it preached.
However, PLEASE help me to understand! If God went to the lengths that He did to bring the world the TRUE GOSPEL (the sacrifice of His only Son), why would He now send a false prophet, with a false gospel, to evangelize a nation?

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: (go ye not therefore after them. )

Blessings Greg

Hi everyone.

Dear Phebe and others,

I'm wondering as I write this if my thoughts about this are worth sharing, that is, does it really matter and is it edifying others or is it for me just some intellectual speculation.

Still, and I say this with only gentleness in my thoughts, I guess I would be more encouraged by this if perhaps some of our brothers and sisters in chains in N. Korea were instead the ones being invited to speak about the Gospel. Or perhaps all of them in prison(as I have read they are but I do not know it first hand) could be released to go and hear Mr. Warren speak? Maybe Mr. Warren could be allowed to visit them? I say this with no sarcasm intended dear ones, but trying to express my heart for what is an [i]awkward[/i] situation as I see it.

Whatever the case, I suppose what is more important to know is that you and others will be praying. :-D

Chris

Now for my 2 bits worth. From what I have read and heard about Rick Warren, I don't believe God will use him. Why? He would only take the glory for himself, not God. I don't like his ministry, he is a deceiver. Pray all you want for him. I only pray for those who I believe have honoured God. How has he honoured God? Go to his website and learn about his ministry and see if it isn't man-centred instead of God-centred. Is this how the first century church functioned? Read Acts 2 and compare with Warren's ministry. He is no threat to the North Koreans. Let them invite Paul Washer or Keith Daniel, then I'll pray for God to move. Like I said, that's my 2 cents worth. God bless.

Hey guys,

What's the big deal with Rick Warren? Why are some people here labeling him as a false minister and deceiver? Those are pretty heavy accusations! I don't know anything about his ministry, other than it being a bit soft and seeker-friendly. A Chaplain's Assistant gave me a copy of the "Purpose-Driven Life" and I thumbed through for about 5 minutes. I normally read Ravenhill, G. Campbell Morgan and the Puritans, so it didn't do anything for me. It was fluffy and shallow. But is this man a "false minister?"

Again, I don't know anything about his ministry or church (is it Saddleback or Saddlebrook?) apart from what I read in the book. Yes, it was shallow stuff, and I couldn't find any clear teachings on repentance, atonement, the new birth, sanctification and the self-denial of the cross...but, hey, does this qualify him to be a wolf? If it turns out he IS a brother and truly saved and a child of God, then some of you will answer for these statements at the Judgment. Be so careful, brethren. You may disagree with his ministry, but take heed like David before Saul in the cave.

In anycase, I may be completely wrong. Can somebody please show me on what grounds this man deserves to be called a false minister and deceiver, other than pastoring a mega, seeker-friendly church and writing watered-down Christian New York Times bestsellers?

Bro. Paul

I see what you're saying, Krispy.

He preaches the Joel Osteen-type gospel. Not an accurate account of the true gospel, but rather a Jesus-the-great-social-worker-in-the-sky message. Yeah, the church is plaqued with this stuff. I hate it. I hope he gets a life-altering vision en route to Korea! In anycase, I'm not too sure these North Koreans will buy into this foolish nonsense like we have in America. They've been through too much to be bamboozled by it. The prosperity gospel seems to take hold only with the comfortably sloth and naive. Bingo North America. Christians in poorer countries like India and Africa bemoan us here in America, with all our modern luxuries yet utterly bankrupt spirituality and our stupid greedy prosperity heresies. I pray the North Koreans will discern the same if Warren attempts to spread this poison over there.

For many, this will be the first and only presentation of the gospel they'll ever hear. I hope they get the right message.

Bro. Paul

Hi everyone.

Dorcas, how are you?

It so happens I was reading in Joshua today and came across this

Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them.

this was sort of a [i]discovery[/i] for me as I had not known it or noticed it before, at least to memory.

I don't want to take away from the point you were making, but since I happened to notice this today, and this story came up, I thought maybe I could share something else from this story that might be edifying for us to consider, even for ourselves, and apart from MR. Warren, though I do think it could apply.

In thinking about this I came across a question you asked

How could Rick Warren go wrong, if he is open so to be used?

I think here of [b]motive[/b] in connection with the story from Scripture.

Remember back [b]before[/b] the Lord [i]sent[/i] Balaam He told him, no.

And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.

[i]Before I continue, let me digress for a moment.[/i]

For those who hand out tracts, you might have one or more questions you ask people in offering them the tract. Ray Comfort suggests asking

have you gotten one of these?

The question implies the person is missing something, which they are, especially if they are not saved. But someone might object, asking if this is genuinely honest, to ask a question to which you already know the answer. I've thought about this myself and find precedent in the word of God - from God Himself.

For instance to Adam

Where art thou?

or to Cain

Where is Abel thy brother?

or to Saul of Tarsus

...why persecutest thou me?

In our story, God even asks Balaam a question

...What men are these with thee?

We can be sure it wasn't that God didn't know the answer! That would be absurd. So why does God ask questions?

I have grown to suspect that God asks them [i] for our sake[/i], that is, for the benefit of those who He is asking.

Perhaps then, in this case, it was though God was saying to Balaam, stop and think about this, [b] what kind of men[/b] are these before you?

And Balaam knew who they were - the king of Moab sent them.

I did a little digging with a thought in mind and found this

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto [b]Molech[/b]; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Easton's Bible dictionary says Moloch was

"the name of the national god of the Ammonites, to whom children were sacrificed by fire."

and that "this god became Chemosh among the [b]Moabites[/b]."

Even if there is no connection here, we know that Scripture does say they came

with the rewards of divination in their hand

So Balaam got his answer. It was [b]no[/b].

But then, look at how he responds to the men sent by Balaak. First how he doesn't respond:

he doesn't say 'get out of here, how dare you ask me to curse what God has blessed!'

no, he doesn't say that

he doesn't even rebuke them or warn them!

he says

...the Lord refuseth to give me leave to go....

And in this I think the character of this [i]prophet[/b] is revealed - I think he was a [b] prophet for hire[/b]

The inspired Apostle speaks of those who are

exercised with covetous practices

and who follow

the way of Balaam

This time God tells him to go but we see that

God's anger was kindled because he went

In the end, while it is true that blessing was pronounced upon Israel, did not the people

commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.

through the counsel of Balaam

I'll leave the implications and applications for us all to consider, both in this current thread and our own lives.

bro Greg

Nothing would thrill me more than to know that the GOSPEL is being preached to the masses anywhere in the world. God has never failed to bring the GOSPEL wherever He has wanted it preached.However, PLEASE help me to understand! If God went to the lengths that He did to bring the world the TRUE GOSPEL (the sacrifice of His only Son), why would He now send a false prophet, with a false gospel, to evangelize a nation?

bro Greg this is a good question. We could ask even more Questions of God,

1)if He wanted to free His children from Pharoah and He had a Hebrew man as a prince of Egypt (moses) why would He take Him from the palace into the wilderness for 40 yrs first?

2)why would God use Paul (a man who was there when Stephen was stoned who persecuted Christians) to preach to Gentiles?

we could go on and on but you get the idea. i also remember of a time God sent Jeremiah to the nation of Israel and [i]told[/i] Him that His children wouldn't listen to Jeremiah. Jreremiah of course retorted "what's the point then?

it seems to me our Lord likes to use the most unqualified people for His work so that He gets the glory. Look at David, an adulterer and a murderer and yet Christ is called "the Son of David" surely God could have used a much more wholesome king to name His son after.

As for Mr Warren, i don't agree with much of what He teaches but we must remember that our Lord is not hindered by our shortcomings. God speaks through us, i have my own issues i wrestle with yet God uses me to speak sometimes, He uses you Greg with all your issues. the plan of God marches on Rick Warren false prophet or not, whether we see him as that or not, whether we agree with what the Father does or not. it is no accident rick warren is going there, God ordained it for His own glory. this may not be about evalngelizing a nation,it may be that God has 1 person there He's trying to reach and Rick Warren is who He'll use. we may not like it or agree (it seems pretty obvious to me we're averse to some degree), but if God has seen fit to do so, who can tell Him He is wrong? who knows what God is trying to do, our concern should not be "why is God using Rick warren?" our concern should be,"God what do you want me to do? we leave much undone by worrying about the next man... We have no idea what our Lord is looking to do here but if He leads let us pray for all this that His will be done to the glory of His name which is our benefit as His children. AMEN.

bro greg i've not dismissed the scriptures you posted for they are indeed valid, many people will go after false prophets etc but remember this scripture which you also posted:

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: (go ye not therefore after them. )

we should be watchful but also not neglect our responsibilities. God is not unaware of the false prophet, but let us not be distracted by him either to the point of forgetting that our God is sovereign over all and we ought to seek after Him and what we ought to do.

sis enid

Now for my 2 bits worth. From what I have read and heard about Rick Warren, I don't believe God will use him. Why? He would only take the glory for himself, not God. I don't like his ministry, he is a deceiver. Pray all you want for him. I only pray for those who I believe have honoured God. How has he honoured God? Go to his website and learn about his ministry and see if it isn't man-centred instead of God-centred. Is this how the first century church functioned? Read Acts 2 and compare with Warren's ministry. He is no threat to the North Koreans. Let them invite Paul Washer or Keith Daniel, then I'll pray for God to move. Like I said, that's my 2 cents worth. God bless.

let us turn this same perception/view on you and ourselves. if we reason that a man is not usable by God for any reason, let us think of our own shortcomings.

i have been a fornicator, an adulterer, a liar (i guess some of Mr warren's preaching is lies), thief, slanderer...i could go on but you get the point. yet it pleased God to come into my life and work on me and use me to preach His word to His glory. you sis enid may have been all or none of those things yet it pleased God to deal with you. if we use the same logic you used in your above post, we should pay you no mind because you yourself have sinned in some form or other; you may not have been a false prophet but you are no better, neither am i. think of Paul, moses, david etc, all these men had problems, david and moses were murderers, paul was at least an accessory to murder (stephen's stoning) and very much a hater and persecutor of Christians yet it pleased God to use such to His glory.

We may think God needs to send in Keith Daniel to Korea, evidently God doesn't agree coz Rick Warren is going. ouch! let's get over our prides,do we trust God or not? do we think we can do better than He? we oft think we can help God with our bright ideas...i think He's got it well covered don't you? we have no idea what God is going to do, but we can be sure He will see His will done. this is not to say we ought not speak out against false prophets or not be cautious but when God has determined to do something, He's seen every possible outcome (we don't have such insight) and decided to go ahead.

it is easy to think Keith Daniel or Ravenhil to be a better choice than rick warren for this mission, but then we would end up praising that man rather than God who enabled it all. we do give men all the props for a work done rather than acknowlege God, we say ravenhil was a great preacher, how about God preached many great things through Ravenhil? just a thought. in this case many of us think Rick warren totally unqualified for this. let me tell you brethren, that is the point. whatever happens in Korea afterward will be to God's glory because there will be no other way to explain it. we see rick warren as a false prophet but if a nation is brought to repentance after a false prophet goes in, then what can we say [i]but[/i] that it was the hand of God?

Time will tell.

"We're kind of the Linux of Christianity," Warren says.

CNN.Money is quite impressed with his abilities as a CEO.

But I would have to say God is not impressed at all.

What did Uzziah receive as his reward when he tried to touch the ark ? What happened when the jews tried to modernize the ark of God with a cart on wheels ?

What is going to happen to Rick Warren and his contemporary Christianity ? It will all undergo the test of God's holy fire, and it will all burn away.

sis enid

Time will tell.

time will tell indeed and the purposes of God will be fulfilled to His glory. AMEN.

bro iwantanguish
our Lord will surely try the works of rick warren and his ministry and like you say much of it will burn away. what concern of yours or mine is that? this is not to say we should not be aware, but we should also see what works of our own will burn away...let's be willing to turn the same light on ourselves. i am convinced that the reason why our preaching is ineffective is because much of what we preach has not been wrought in our own lives. we preach abstinence before and fidelity in marriage and yet our children fornicate and we commit adultery. the heathen can see through that and if that is not falsely professing God then i don't know what is. if we ourselves have not reckoned with what we preach and admonish people to do, we speak truth yes but truth without the life of Christ for it is the life of Christ which changes people. we could yack, yack and yack all day long but if there is no evidence of what we're yacking about in our own lives, then the yacking serves no purpose and it is in fact bearing false witness.

But I would have to say God is not impressed at all.

let us ask then "is God impressed with me?"

What did Uzziah receive as his reward when he tried to touch the ark ? What happened when the jews tried to modernize the ark of God with a cart on wheels ?

what reward will we receive if we do the same? dare we condemn (even if we are right) any man and think ourselves exempt somehow or not FIRST examine ourselves?

What is going to happen to Rick Warren and his contemporary Christianity ? It will all undergo the test of God's holy fire, and it will all burn away.

what will happen to rick warren is of no consequence to what will happen to us. the only thing which is of any consequence is what will happen to the works which WE have done. if i have failed God, you will not receive the condemnation thereof and vice versa but if you have failed then you receive the condemnation for your failiure.

what will happen to what we have done?

sis dorcas
you know, when our Lord had me post, i'd not read what you'd written but this is the beauty of fellowship. i did then read what our Lord had said through you and just was blown away at how our Lord works.

praise God for bringing us together in this place!

another thing which struck me is many of us are upset in some measure that it's rick warren going, how many of us really would go if given the chance. some of us don't have guts enough to even say a peep when someone curses (i'm guilty) who among us has guts enough to risk our lives to go there? just some things to consider prayerfully.

I would ask everyone to look at some of the articles on this site.[url=http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/index.html]Lighthouse Trails[/url]
These folks are concerned with what is going on with the Purpose Driven, and Contemplative movement in the Body. It is interesting to note that when we warn others of questionable teachings, why is it that we are told not to judge, or let's just see what happens. Brethren if someone placed cyanide in your water would you want me to warn you before you drank it, or should I wait and see what would happen?
Rick Warren has strong ties to Robert Schuller as does Bill Hybels, their doctrine is not far from his, just heavily disguised in Christian terminology.The basis of this doctrine is man, the beneficiary is man. It is interesting that we all have heard "Ten shekels and a shirt" yet here we are defending someone preaching the very thing Brother Reidhead warns us of.
Are we or are we not to defend the faith once delivered?
Now just so you know, I am not saying that GOD cannot use Mr Warren, but I would say that Mr Warren would first have to know intimately the one whom he preaches about, and HIS Gospel. I am amazed that GOD can use anyone anywhere, but this does not mean that we just blindly put our heads in the sand and say "well GOD will do what HE will do" that is laziness, and that is part of the reason we are in this debacle in the first place. Please just look into who this man uses to help train his pastors. It is a man named Ken Blanchard who has, and maintains strong ties to New Age beliefs, and seminars. He even wrote the foreward for the book if I remember correctly. What fellowship has light with dark? Also look at what this is doing to congregations where the PDL is brought in. Those who stand up and say this is wrong are forced out of the church.
[url=http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/resistersdieorleave.htm]Resist Die Or Leave[/url]

Hi everyone.

Hi again Dorcas, glad you are doing well :-)

A couple things as I'm reading over the responses in this thread.

...if anything suggests God has His hand on whatever Rick Warren is going to do in N Korea, (just as He has His hand on what Satan is allowed to do), it is that a number of us broke away from false teaching to seek a relationship with God which answered all our hearts' desire to be experientially saved.

Can see your point here, although I'm not sure if this isn't a case of perceiving an ultimate good instead of seeking a present one? Sort of like the difference between the theology of

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

and the application of

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Just an observation.

Am thinking of all this in the light of something Roaringlamb has posted about Mr. Warren so that is where my thoughts are headed.

Whatever the state of Rick Warren's faith, I think he deserves not a little honour for being willing to agree to go.

Sister, that is true, there is a certain honor in going there, but I'm not certain it is a godly honor? Thinking back to the story of Balaam, he was willing to go and [b]speak only the words of God[/b]. But it appears too that, becuase he couldn't profit in it, he was also [b]willing[/b] to earn [i]the wages of unrighteousness[/i] by other means, by teaching Balak to entice the children of Israel into fornication and idolatry and thousands of them fell because of it.

Brothers and sisters, I watch and read and interact here, striving always to maintain unity amongst us, to look beyond much that I might disagree with, even strongly disagree with, intending to know nothing among you all, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

But I agree with these sentiments of Roaringlamb also,

It is interesting to note that when we warn others of questionable teachings, why is it that we are told not to judge, or let's just see what happens. Brethren if someone placed cyanide in your water would you want me to warn you before you drank it, or should I wait and see what would happen?

Yet I also find no small difficulty in discerning how and when to do this. :-(

Even a simple sentence such as 'Jesus is alive'... if empowered by the Holy Spirit in the ears of the hearer, is totally transforming.

Reminds me of the testimony of Nicki Cruz :)

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?op=&cid=335]Nicki Cruz testimony[/url]

Peace be with the Israel of God.

bro Roaringlamb

I am amazed that GOD can use anyone anywhere, but this does not mean that we just blindly put our heads in the sand and say "well GOD will do what HE will do" that is laziness, and that is part of the reason we are in this debacle in the first place. Please just look into who this man uses to help train his pastors. It is a man named Ken Blanchard who has, and maintains strong ties to New Age beliefs, and seminars. He even wrote the foreward for the book if I remember correctly. What fellowship has light with dark? Also look at what this is doing to congregations where the PDL is brought in. Those who stand up and say this is wrong are forced out of the church.

actually bro, God will do whatever He wants to do, the thing is we ought to put down what [i]we[/i] would do and jump on the train of what He is doing. i'm not saying we should bury our heads in the sand or not speak out against false doctrine, but we ought not to stray from God's will coz that amounts to rebellion even if the intent is noble in our eyes. i'm reminded of job's friends when they accused job of sinning and that being the cause of his trouble. God said of them that they ought to offer sacrifices because they didn't speak rightly of Him.

it seems to me there is a good amount of disobedience going on as it pertains to speaking out against such as many choose silence and perhaps some speak out not out of s spirit if glorifying God, but oneself.

Chances are, if its mainstream, its not of God, its of the world.

bro IWantAnguish

IWantAnguish wrote:
Chances are, if its mainstream, its not of God, its of the world.

true...

sis dorcas

Amen to the fellowship we enjoy on this forum. I've not put into words before, I don't think, that I've noticed we are very much on the same page. Your posts in this thread, about turning the searchlight on our own lives, very much accords with my thinking. I would caution, though, that while one can be open to correction from on High, unless the word comes from on High, our attempts to correct ourselves will lack the necessary ingredients of God's healing love and creative transformation. Iow.... it would be pure works.

good to know we're not crazy! :-P i agree wholeheartedly that the correction as we turn the spotlight on ourselves ought to come from on High. also should the light with which we look at ourselves, lest we look on ourselves more favourably that we ought and fail to be where God wants us to be.

Hi everyone.

The following qoute is from the news item which Bartle provided for us.

According to Warren's own account posted on his Web site, [u][b]a delegation of South Korean businessmen[/u][/b] visited him at Saddleback Church in late June [u][b]and invited him[/u][/b] to speak at the public outdoor Christian service to be held in the North Korean capital

I was under the impression that it was the N. Korean government that invited Mr. Warren?

Brother Bartle,

Kim Jong Il reached out to Rick Warren because he's the most well known world wide preacher.

But how do you know this brother?

If I may share something with you all - I am quite apprehensive of saying [b]thus sayeth the Lord[/b]. I'm apprehensive, though probably not always as aware of it, to say it in the many other ways one can say it, when I do not read it clearly in His book. I'm very comfortable speaking on the authority of Scripture but when it comes to saying God is doing such and such, should we not all tread [b]much[/b] more carefully?

For the scripture says

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

but..

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Covet to prophesy indeed. But, should we not remember how weighty a matter it is as well?

A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.

If ANYONE deviates from the written Gospel preached by Jesus, Paul, John, Peter or any of the apostles, LET HIM BE ACCURSED !

The written Gospel is fallen man, Son of Man crucified, man crucified to sin, live the resurrection life dead to sin, dead to money, dead to self.

Wake up guys... Satan wants you to promote this heresy to further his own ends.

Warren, a 52-year-old pastor who had his name on lists such as ``100 Top Celebrities in the World'' by Forbes magazine and ``15 People Who Make America Great'' by Newsweek

doesent that just say it all??? if one is in christ the world can not love him....

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out FROM us, but they WERE NOT of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I do not understand, how it is that a man can teach a man centered gospel, and this is alright with the majority who have been posting on here. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Gospel renunciation of self, and rising to Christ's life in you? Also, how many of us have actually read the book? Isn't it interesting that if Joel Osteen was going many here would tear him apart because he preaches a man centered gospel, yet RW is untouchable? Thye preach the same thing which is not much different than Norman Vincent Peale, and Robert Shuler's message of self. You are wonderful, you have meaning, you have a purpose, your dreams are important, you can improve yourself. Sounds an awful lot like "I will ascend into heaven, I will be like the Most High" doesn't it.
Someone brought up a valid point earlier in this discussion about how Kim Yong has declared himself to be god, and I highly doubt RW will say anything to discredit that. It is hard to see this happening, but are we really buying this? A man who heralds Bono as a Christian, and promotes not only a man centered message, but a strictly social gospel, and we're saying that this will bring revival in North Korea? Look at the men and women who have tread the path to preach in Asia in the past. Men like John Sung, Samuel Lamb, Jonathan Goforth, Hudson Taylor, etc. Their message dealt with sin, repentance, and renouncing of sin. Not let's all see how we can do away with poverty, and sickness, and hunger, and set up heaven on Earth.
As far as the Emerging Church within my hometown, I want no part of it. They are simply a bridge into the Roman Catholic Church. They promote prayer labrynths which are from Eastern Mysticism, they pray to icons, they even had the stations of the cross set up downtown at Easter time. Last time I looked we are Protestants, and there is a reason for that. Nothing has changed as the Roman Catholic system has not changed their goal of world domination under the guise of Christ and His kingdom.
If any of the things that I have said are in question, pm me, or e-mail me, and I will be more than happy to provide evidence of these things.

Yes I know about Bro Sung. I also know a little bit more about Vintage Faith because I live here, and see the effects that it has on people. I do not seek to get people off track, as I am all for The Gospel of Jesus Christ to be preached in all the world. But answer me this please, what do prayer labrynths, praying to statues, having a god you can feel, touch, see etc have to do with any of this? Please come out to Santa Cruz, you can stay at my house, and we can go to Vintage Faith and you can see for yourself that it is not right. Many groups have doctrinal statements that sound wonderful, but you don't know how they truly are until you go.
Also, why don't we discuss the fact that just because something is popular or achieving great success does not mean it is right or from GOD. Jehovah's Witnesses are rapidly growing, and they study the Scriptures, so should I link up to them? or how about the Mormons they teach a gospel, so it must be right, right?
Come on, I never had any intention of bickering over this, I cannot stand to see people deceived into something wrong. What if Jesus had said, "well Judaism is okay, so no cross, no need for me to die, and I don't need to warn anyone about its pitfalls."
We know He didn't do that. Instead out of love, and genuine heartfelt concern for their souls He warned them. The same goes for me, and I appreciate your praying for me.
I end with this scripture
"Ga 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
I hope not, because I do love you and all those in North Korea as well.

From the 2006 Worship Conference - The Purpose Driven Life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeES0PUN78o

Is this a joke!?

This must be a joke...

Brother Bartle and all,
I have to say that in many respects I agree with you. I don't mean to have the if-you-can't-play-by-my-rules-then-I'll-take-my-marbles-and-go-home attitude, but there is something very, very wearisome about sermonindex in the last several months that I can only take for so long and then I just have to go away for awhile. It's an attitude of sprirtual superiority. It's an attitude of "I have all the truth and everyone else is going straight to hell--do not pass go, do not collect $100". Maybe many do not say this in so many words, but this is the attitude that comes across loud and clear.
Remember, it is quite possible to be right and yet still be SO wrong. If you think about it, the pharisees were right. They knew the law and followed it. They were "holy", and yet, they missed Jesus. Let us not get so caught up in being right that we miss Christ. Brothers and sisters, what if God wanted to speak to you through your Catholic neighbor, or through you r brand-new doesn't-know-a-lick-of-theology friend, or (dare I say it?) Rick Warren?! Would you be so concerned with being right that you would miss Christ? Remember, God uses imperfect vessels. We are all learning. When we get to heaven, we're going to find out everything that Rick Warren said that was wrong. We are also going to discover that much that Diane and Neil and Phebe and Krispy and (can it be?) even Greg said was wrong. But thank goodness that God sees through our imperfections to the heart underneath--I hope he finds a loving, trusting, believing heart in each one of us and not a divisive one.
"The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'". If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." Galations 5:14-15
I remember when I had the pleasure of interacting with the underground church in China, there were some pastors from a certain large American denomination that visited. They did not introduce themselves as followers of Christ, but as "______" (part of this denomination). The Chinese believers were bewildered. They had never heard of this. To them either you were a Christian or not. They were unimpressed. Later on, they had a small festive gathering to welcome the pastors. At it they served alcohol, as is customary there (I can only speak of the city in far northern China where we were). The American pastors were incredulous and started trying to tell the Chinese they were "living in sin". I personally had not had one drop of alcohol, but I sat there at that table seething. HOW DARE THEY! The Chinese believers had endured for Christ under persecution and some even bore the evidence of their loyalty to Christ on their bodies. The American preachers may have been right (or not!), but their attitude was dead wrong and they had missed Christ...

Anyway, speaking of underground churches... My parents are here visiting, and my mother told me that some friends of hers with connections in N.Korea told her that things are worse than ever there. Please pray for our brothers and sisters in North Korea. My mom said that the Chinese are finding blood in the Yalu river often now (presumably from potential defetors being shot). By the way, an interesting window into the propaganda and deception of the N.Korean government can be found on their official website:
www.korea-dpr.com
(They have a "e-store" there and I have to admit that I was tempted to buy a "propaganda KPA soldier poster" or "Korean People's Army Chorus Volume 29", but I'm not sure that sending my credit card number to North Korea would be wise. :-) If anyone gets up the nerve to try, then please get me a copy of the set of 5 "Bronze Kim Il Sungs" postcards, okay?" :-)

Love,
Phebe

Hey guys, I don't mean to further stir things up, but I just watched that 2006 Worship Conference link.

Words fail me.

I truly had no idea. It is hideous, wicked, demonic. I felt like vomiting. Absolute apostasy.

Is this RW's gospel? If so, he would be better to not say anyting in N Korea. I'm sorry, Bartle. But if this is any indication...

Dear brother, have you seen the video??

I didn't want to post this here, brother. I couldn't find that new post you said you made. Please forgive me.

In Christ, Bro. Paul

Words fail me.

Same here. My mind is not capable to find the exact words after watching this. I thought it is a joke. Then I saw the official site..it is true...

Brother Bartle,

I can understand why you started another thread and perhaps that will be fruitfull, I do not know.

But, doesn't our brother Roaringlamb deserve to be heard also? Afterall, this thread [b]is[/b] about Rick Warren, preaching in N. Korea, even if that is not primarliy the thing you wished for us to discuss? Shouldn't he be permitted to share that concern with us within the context of the ongoing discussion?

I genuinely believe that Roaringlamb is expressing his heartfelt concern over something which he views as harmfull and dangerous to others. And does not the scripture say

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

and remember too that love

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth

Chris

Brother I am concerned for you as you have no problem accussing people of being religious for being Bereans of the scriptures. I would be the first one to allow someone to look at my life and way it against scripture. Oh sure there would be some areas that need work, but why is it that when we simply warn people of something un-scriptural you rail against it as "religious".
The religious thing would be more along the lines of "if it works, don't change it" as you don't need the Holy Spirit, and it becomes flesh empowered, and enslaving to all involved.
Perhaps you are misunderstanding me, I have no problem with Mr Kimball, or Mr Warren. The problem lies in what they teach, and while it is true that they will answer to GOD one day for that, a shepherd does not allow the flock to be harmed by wolves(false doctrine in this case).

Brother Bartle,
I somewhat agreed with you until now. If you reread your post, you will notice that you are now redirecting your own thread to attack the religious right. You hijacked your own thread, not someone else.

I have no doubt that you have a good heart, but you need to not devour people in your anger like this. I have more than an inkling that you are angry against empty religion and religionists in your own life and are taking this out on others here. That is NOT fair. If you are very angry, take a few deep breaths and leave your computer alone for a while. Do not say what you will regret.

Apologies are in order...

Phebe

Why are so many of you upset with those of us that want to point out that the gospel that pastor Rick Warren preaches is a false gospel? I believe that pastor Rick needs our prayer, as do the North Koreans, and anyone else who has not repented, and believed.
How can so many people who claim to be Christians on this site, respond so flippantly, with total disregard to scriptural teaching on this subject of false teachers?
I have not found a single reference in any of Rick Warrens teachings regarding the need to repent to follow Jesus. This makes it a false gospel! Please consider the following verses of scripture.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

What is so hard to understand? How can we remain silent and allow false teachers to corrupt God's gospel?
Blessings Greg[/color]

bartle

God is God, and He will always be God, and He can do anything he wants.

Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

He says that He could even send the stones to proclaim the gospel. The only diffrence between the rocks and Rick Warren is that the rocks would declare The Gospel.

barytle PLEASE explaine why God would go to the extrordinary lengths that He did to bring us The GOSPEL,( sacrificing His own Son) and then use a false teacher to take a false gospel to anyone? That suggestion is completely anti-biblical, and totally contrary to the teaching of scripture. Can you present a single scripture to support your position?

That is the only response that I want to see..

Blessings, Greg

Bartle... do you work for Rick Warren ?

Just curious...

Honestly, just compare Rick Warren's teachings with the bible.

Don't take our word for it.

Go straight to the Word.

What does it say? If it supports Rick Warren, then great, pray for him. If it denies Rick Warren, then you be like Jesus, drive out the money changers and the thieves.

TAKE THESE THINGS HENCE, MAKE NOT MY FATHER'S HOUSE A HOUSE OF MERCHANDISE.

The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Amen.

Basically... do not ever forget that Satan is at work in this world.

His grip on the United States of America is so great, just look at it with open eyes.

Americans are more concerned about saving the trees while 4000 children are murdered everyday.

Even after purpose driven life sold millions here in the states. We are still murdering 4000 children EVERYDAY !

YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. What fruit has come out of Rick Warren other than mediocre Laodicean luke-warm church promotion ?

On another approach...

Matthew 6:2,3 by our Lord Jesus...

There when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have GLORY OF MEN. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.

=========

Not only does Rick Warren's left hand know what his right hand is doing, he is making sure that everyone across the world knows what he's doing for God... As if God were so desperate that He would have to rely on a fallen pastor preaching fallen doctrine to a dying generation.

James 4:4

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a f riend of the world is THE ENEMY OF GOD.

Amen.

sis dorcas

If we could just get our eyes of the short-term issues, and onto God's long term plan to have North Koreans from this generation in His Bride, perhaps we could work on our lack of faith in His power and judgment, rather than on crossing our t s and dotting the i s of our theology and our ungodly allegiance to men (whether we think they are of God and cruising, or, deserving of His bruising for their seemingly overt compromises).

i think this is a meaty thing to consider here, our own lack of faith in our Lord's power and sovereingty (which causes us to question the rationality of some of His decisions) God is sovereign and His purposes will be acomplished. i think our Lord raised up and put Rick warren in this position for that purpose but ultimately it will all be for His glory, not entirely sure how it will work out, i just know it will.

again the key issue here is not the doctrine of this man because ultimately God is sovereign and that is the key issue. how many times has our Lord used us in spite of our many faults, false theologies, self-righteousnesses and so on to His glory?

bro Roaringlamb

I do not understand, how it is that a man can teach a man centered gospel, and this is alright with the majority who have been posting on here. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Gospel renunciation of self, and rising to Christ's life in you? Also, how many of us have actually read the book? Isn't it interesting that if Joel Osteen was going many here would tear him apart because he preaches a man centered gospel, yet RW is untouchable?

i don't think it's true that we agree with rick warren's theology, in fact it seems to me we all agree that we disagree with his theology and have established it to be a man-centred one. you'll get no arguement from me on that. the issue however is we also need to consider the sovereignty of God. here we are saying this man is unfit to preach the word to this nation, yet this is the man God has appointed. i wonder if much of this has to do with our own egos and wanting to be the one to go so we may get some time in the limelight. our Lord shine His light on all our hearts to reveal if this is true that we may repent if it is. AMEN.

the bottom line is, qualified in our eyes or not, God has made it so that this man goes. when paul got saved he was the very [i][b]last[/b][/i] person any Christian wanted anything to do with coz he was not a nice guy yet God used Him. Abraham and sarah were both way past having kids yet it pleased God to use them to birth His nation of Israel. God has a knack for doing such and the key issue is we need to get over ourselves and reckon with our Lord's sovereingty in all things. honestly who among us is a better man that rick warren yet it pleases God to use us. i say we seek our Lord and get with whatever He is trying to do. God's plan will not be stopped so we should get with it.

i don't like the man's theology but i trust in our Lord's sovereignty and that He will see His will done.

Brother Bartle, I think we are all forgetting something here, and that is that there will always be a false spiritual empire, and there will be a true Church. There is a true Church in North Korea as I have read many reports from Voice of the Martyrs, and other missions groups. These folks will have nothing to do with this, as it would be too much of a danger to the underground fellowships there.
I know you said you did not want to go point by point through the Saddleback beliefs, but I simply wanted to ask about one in particular.
Under the "view of man" it says that man has potential to do good or something to that extent. This is contrary to scripture. For the Scriptures say that the heart of man is deceitful and wicked, and that the heart of man imagines evil constantly(these are paraphrases, but check Gen 6:15) The only way our heart can be changed is when GOD in mercy fulfills what HIS promise is in Ezekiel 36 about HIM giving us a new heart, and putting HIS Spirit within us. This only can happen when we die to self. We cannot do good apart from CHRIST read Romans 1. Notice also the Pharisees did all kinds of good, preached how to join their "purpose", and yet Jesus said that they were of their father the devil.
The people of North Korea will hear the Gospel of our Lord, but not through Rick Warren, or any other government sanctioned speaker it just doesn't work that way. They will hear it through brothers and sisters who risk all for HIM that is worthy. We may never know their names or faces, but rest assured they have a treasure awaiting them.
I'm also sure that if Kim Yong knew the Bible, guess what chapter would quickly become his favourite Romans 13. Why, because all kinds of governments like to throw this around as to not get any questioning about what they are doing. Hitler told Lutheran Pastors as well as others to preach from this chapter, and he also used the phrase "god is with us" as he destroyed millions of people. Sorry a little off topic, but just so you know.
One last point, you mentioned earlier that Kim Yong is searching for GOD, again that is contrary to Scripture. The Scriptures declare "there is none that seek after GOD". But here is the beautiful thing GOD seeks after men !!

bro Smokey

barytle PLEASE explaine why God would go to the extrordinary lengths that He did to bring us The GOSPEL,( sacrificing His own Son) and then use a false teacher to take a false gospel to anyone? That suggestion is completely anti-biblical, and totally contrary to the teaching of scripture. Can you present a single scripture to support your position?

well one could also ask God why He used Paul who was a pharisee and a persecutor of the Church to preach the gospel. why would God use Moses not as crown prince of egypt but as a shepherd to lead his people out of egypt, moses too was a murderer. then christ is always identified as the son of david, david was an adulterer and a murderer...i think this is scriptural evidence enough that God can use whoever He wants. but maybe we also ought to consider that noone who we think qualified was willing to go and rick warren (false gospel and all) said "i'll go" perhaps we who think we can preach it better don't have guts enough to go and God is exposing our fear to us and once again showing that He is SOVEREIGN. This is the issue here. we must also look beyond what we see in the natural and know that everything is moving toward the fulfilment of God's will to His own glory and we ought to get on that train.

should we speak out against the false gospel? we should, and rick warren preaches a false gospel. however this is who God chose...i fear that for all our complaints against rick warren and him going to korea, none of us would dare go if God asked us to go...

our God has exposed our foolishness and unwillingness to go forth for Him by sending a false teacher to a starving land...He has shamed us. sure rick warren will have to answer for preaching falsely, but we will have to answer for sitting onour butts in disobedience...God help us!AMEN.

please explain why God would use a false teacher to take a false gospel to anyone? That suggestion is completely anti-biblical, and totally contrary to the teaching of scripture. Can you present a single scripture to support your position?

Smokey, I respond, using a variety of personal experiences. (I just posted this on the Emergent Church thread but realize that it belongs here. Oops….)

One day, some years ago, I found myself alone in a RC church facing a life-size true-to-color crucifix. I had no idea what was to happen. The Spirit awoke in me a reality of the cross that had never been part of my experience. I was deeply broken as I gazed on my beloved Savior – via a replica. I wept. For years I had become desensitized by seeing polished crosses all the time. I needed the shock value of the “real thing”. ( I didn't need to accept the RC doctrine)

On another occasion the Lord brought deep conviction through some secular music. Again, it had a shock-value, much needed because I had become slightly desensitized to scriptures that were meant to say the same thing that God spoke to me through the songs.

One time the Lord took me into the Red Light District in Amsterdam and spoke a powerful, life-changing message to me. (It’s on my site) I needed the shock-value of the unusual experience.

Another time God led me to a healing and deliverance organization and there I was healed of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. The organization was not altogether what I would call “orthodox”.

I could add many more examples, and so could you.

I have learned that God is not opposed to using, quite deliberately, organizations and individuals who are quite “off the wall” as far as pure orthodoxy. Who are we to get in the way?

This is the risk that God seems to take: When one has a powerful spiritual experience, he or she is tempted to go back to that place and stay put. Who doesn’t want to relive what happened in their past? However that’s when one can get hooked to that group, and to the voice of its leaders.

Sadly many don’t wish to move on with God. There will always be many who prefer to attach themselves to man-made organizations and charismatic leaders through whom they felt blessed in their past. I know some Mormons and JW’s who stayed put for that very reason. .. Oh, by the way, I forgot to include examples of how God used even these people to speak to me.

Now I’m sure you will consider me a heretic if I say that God even used Scott Peck and Henry Nouwin to get through my mental callouses. These people, though, they may be off, have an amazing way of seeing right through our religious hypocrisy, and in some ways they think more Christ-like than many Christians.

As much as we like playing hockey with theological pucks, there comes the time when we realize that we will never win. So we put the equipment on a shelf and look to our blessed Lord, and trust that he works in the most outlandish ways.

Diane

Does it matter whom God chooses to deliver His word? I think we should pray for him as christians that the Holy Spirit will touch his tongue and place his word in his mouth, so that he can proclaim the word God boldly and unadultrated.
The biggest problem I see among christians is the fact that, we cut each others throat thinking we are doing God some good, instead of going down on our knee in prayer.
God in these times need some praying christians!!! LETS SUPPORT HIM INPRAYER, NO MATTER WHAT WE FEEL ABOUT HIM.

Hi everyone.

I'd like to share this qoute again from the news item which brother Bartle provided for us. [b]It seems like maybe we are discussing something here that isn't really taking place as we understand it?[/b]

The emphasis is added by me.

According to Warren's own account posted on his Web site, a delegation of [b]South Korean[/b] [u]businessmen[/u] visited him at Saddleback Church in late June [b]and invited him[/b] to speak at the public outdoor Christian service to be held in the North Korean capital in March next year marking the 100th anniversary of the Pyongyang Revival in 1907. [b]The South Koreans[/b] had [u]obtained permission[/u] for the service, which will be the first of its kind in 60 years as the dictatorial North Korean regime virtually bans any religious activities in public.

Is it the N. Korean Goverment that is actually inviting Mr. Warren? Or has he simply been invited by South Koreans to an event they are holding in N. Korea, for which they had already gotten approval for. Not that that approval isn't significant in itself, but this seems to change the whole dynamic of the discussion, to some degree anyway.

Chris

Beloved, it is possible to understand [b]all of human history[/b] through the lense of Divine Providence.

But is it fitting that our earthly gaze should be so besmudge by the sin tainted efforts of man that we loose our zeal for righteousness and truth?

Becuase iniquitiy abounds, will our love wax cold?

Love...

[b][i]Rejoiceth not in iniquity[/b][/i]

[b][i]but rejoiceth in the truth[/b] [/i]

[i]Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men. And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: [b]but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth[/b]; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the Lord.[/i]

Ironman

Thank you for the insight. I think if you check scripture more closely you will find out that when Moses took it upon himself to lead his people, he ended up killing an Egyptian, and having to flee into the desert. Only after 40 years of living on the back side of the desert, and an encounter with God at the burning bush, did God send him to deliver his people out of Egypt.

As for Paul, you are quite right that he was a pharisee, and a persecutor of the the Church. However, on the road to Damascus, God brought him to his face, and after 3 days, filled him with the Holy Spirit. He then spent 3 more years in close relationship with God before he was sent to preach the gospel.

I appreciate the point that you are trying to make, however your examples do not cover this situation.

As a side note the example that bartle uses about the donkey being used of God to deliver a message. You will find that God used the donkey to REBUKE the man who was spreading a false witness.

Blessings Greg

P.S. These are my last comments on this thread..There is really nothing else that I can add to what I have already said.

Alot prayer opportunities!
- (North)Korea
- The NK dictator
- Rick warren
- The (15k+ or more) people
- That God will be revealed in that area!
- Many more..

I'd love to see Rick Warren change and go for the Lord walking on the narrow way!
Imagine the impact this would make on his ministry and the people that follow his examples!
And then there re many more things that could happen with the other prayer points.

Exciting topic!

Often amazing the things one finds in threads...

Now I’m sure you will consider me a heretic if I say that God even used Scott Peck and Henry Nouwin to get through my mental callouses. These people, though, they may be off, have an amazing way of seeing right through our religious hypocrisy, and in some ways they think more Christ-like than many Christians.

Fox News has a current news clip under Hanity and Colmes interviewing Franklin Graham. Franklin, who had an interview with the Prime Minister of North Korea in 2000 is suggesting that the US should talk with North Korea much like president Nixon and Henry Kissinger did in the early 70's. Franklin’s father Billy went to the Soviet Republic before the Cold War ended and got a lot of ridicule by people like me and yet in a few years the Iron Curtain fell and I had to admire him for going.

Obviously, God could be working out things in North Korea just like he did in the Soviet Republic when the Cold War ended and the gospel ended up being freely preached in Russia and many of the countries that it controlled up to that time. In either case, God uses base things. Sometimes rocks and sometimes donkeys. Why is it that praise is perfected in the mouth of babes instead of the professor at the seminary?

God bless you all,
GaryE

bro Gary

Obviously, God could be working out things in North Korea just like he did in the Soviet Republic when the Cold War ended and the gospel ended up being freely preached in Russia and many of the countries that it controlled up to that time. In either case, God uses base things. Sometimes rocks and sometimes donkeys. Why is it that praise is perfected in the mouth of babes instead of the professor at the seminary?

yea! the babe is not worried about details while the professor is and God is looking for willing people. i think God sending this man whom we have such disdain for proves God may use whom He wants for whatever He wants. Nothing happens without God's permission. it also brings to light that perhaps we have been preoccupied with our own righteousness to hear and obey God.

How many of us would go to this country if God asked?

I'd Go !!!

I speak korean... a little bit

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