Why I Won't Preach

Do you think that your fiery condemnation resonates with the unrepentant?
oh with all due respect as well i can tell u that if i preach the Loveing Jesus (alone) and the sinner is goin to die in his sin but simply knowing that Jesus is his "hommie" that siner will still end up in hell, ......the Gospel needs to be balanced when preached, preachers can not give a sermon out of one verse alone, without showing the audience the verse that completes the message, I can not preach about the Love of Jesus without tellin the siners that even if Jesus loves them their still gona go to hell, therefore in that same mesage i need to preach about the wrath of God ....

{quote}

But the preacher of God must be one who does not need the encouragements of men, but only encouragements from his Master.
.................................................

Amen!

Grace, mercy, and peace
GaryE

to lazurus....shrug off the shouts of the left wing hippies......preach the gospel u outlined but i warn u as Whitefield and all the prophets before him (John the Baptist, Jeremiah etc.) encountered attack from religious hypocrites.... so will you.

to bartle......

please dont be a hypocrite.....go and do what u told our friend lazurus to do first...then come back and tell us how to do things.

"We need some hell fire preaching about repentance"
-Leonard Ravenhill

well i want to say one should never say anything to someone else that you havent done or lived yourself...in telling people what or how they shold do something... When lazarus is out preaching the way he is... if his wrong anywhere then the holy spirit will tell him i belive... now what you said about going out in the wilderness...thats good for ALL OF US... that would be good for you for me and for any other man or woman of god... and about preaching...i belive god will raise up one preacher who is specially good at preaching the love of god..another about repentence..another of heven and hell... but i dont belive one should preach only about one thing... if you only preach about gods love.... then you havent shown them "all" of god.... its true he is love..but he is so much more.

and why would anyone? accepts gods love in their lives exept they relise they despratly need it? i dident need a savior until i was so lost that ehtier god saved me or i was left to die. We should al remember if you preach about jesus to anyone... then preach the cross... the cross is death!!! not an improved "lifestyle".. ohh you will feel better...you will have a better life... you wont have to go to hell and so on... YOU HAVE TO DIE!!! and that we must preach... preach sin hell repentence heaven.... but most of all jesus christ and his cross....

but then again... when peter asks jesus after the resurection... what about him? refering to john... ehat does jesus awnser him? thats a verse we need to meditate... joh 21:23 what others is called to maybe not be your call.. someones elses suffering maybe not be your suffering...someone elses burden may not be yours... and what others do...what does that have to do whit you??? we all awnser to our lord ..no one else...what they do in jesus name...what they preach in his name... the truth is unless god says you should say anything you shouldent.... god will judge them, that im sure of ... if it is good or evil... i pray we will al focus on the thing thats is the most important... to bring souls to christ... to be christ like.... and what to preach on...that should be quite easy...what did our lord preach? what did the apostle preach? if i will be a preacher thats what i will preach...

gods peace to you
christian

Once again the admonishen is neglected;

[i]Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.[/i] Jam 3:13

[i]Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.[/i] 1Pe 3:16

It might behoove some here to study out this word, conversation ... Taking special note of the Lords own words in conjunction with it;

[i]But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.[/i] Mat 15:18

If anything, humble yourself and read
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11281&forum=34]this[/url]

Carefully, prayerfully

Preach on, Brother Jesse.
It is not the sinner that doesn't want to hear your message.
It is the luke warm in the Church.
They want to believe the prosperity, feel good Gospel.
May God have us at the ditch, His bride, when they fall in, so we can show them Jesus Christ.
The Bible says if the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch.
I would encourage you people on SI to listen to Jesses's Sermons here.
Would to God our young people at Church could hear him.
God Bless you, Jesse, and continue to fill you with Himself.
Nellie

It seems that Laz is telling us to preach what Jesus preached.

Jesus did not preach a message of salvation from some other, but rather said that He, the Son of Man, must be lifted up. He humbly preached His own name.

Jesus preached a narrow way. Black or white. Saved or lost. Wise virgins or foolish virgins. Built on rock or built on sand. Fruit-bearing or condemned to wither. Abraham's bosom or torments in flame. His message was straight, so our's ought to be.

Jesus spoke more of hell than any figure in the Scriptures. I don't think anything else needs to be added here.

Jesus' message included repentance, and in fact, started with it, continued with it, and ended with it. His first word of public ministry was 'Repent' in Matthew. His last word of instuction to the New Testament church was 'repent' in Revelation. And the words of Matthew clearly state that He only had 'began' to command men to repent.

Of false peace, I think of this Scripture:

Matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I put this on myself and no one else, but let it convict or encourage where ever it might. While I have been careful to include all of the above, I have been reading from J I Packers 'Keeping In Step with the Spirit,' and have recognized the lack of the other things Jesus and the disciples preached outside of sin, law, righteousness, judgment, and hell (the big five).

Now let me state that preaching must include these, but I am recognizing that that there were many other subjects in their messages that I disclude from mine that I am seeking to add. The majority of preaching, as far as I can tell, does not include the big five, though it should start with the big five and continue in them. I am just realizing in my realm of living and preaching that there is more than the escape of the penalty of the law of sin. But I also recognize that the Christian walk BEGINS with this.

So I think it might bring some thoughts to agreement to consider that Laz is preaching to the lost, not the church crowd. So while there is the love of Christ to consider in ministry, these under Laz's voice need a Saviour from their sin. He is not preaching to the converted. He is attempting to bring the dead to life. We will give that saved sinner the loving arms of Christ when he steps foot into our fold, but as for now, that individual needs to flee from the wrath to come.

May the Lord sustain you and keep you from falling, Jesse.

Jesse wrote:

The gospel that must be preached today is the biblical gospel, the powerful gospel, not a neutered gospel. We need the sin trampling, death destroying, hell conquering gospel! We need the gospel which plucks men out of the fires of hell, out of the clutches of death, and out of the reign of sin. It is this gospel of light which is needed for this dark hour, this gospel of victory for this day of defeat, this gospel of deliverance for this day of bondage. And it is this gospel that I’m going to preach!

This is true and in the light of this truth one needs to ask himself if the gospel one preaches is in line with this truth. So how do we do this? We look at the fruit. So ask yourself, over the past year how many people have been plucked out of the fires of hell, out of the clutches of death, and out of the reign of sin as result of the gospel you preached? How many people have received victory over sin and had the bondages of sin broken in there life as result of the gospel you preached? How many people have been baptized as result of the gospel you preached? How many people have been filled with the Holy Spirit as result of the gospel you preached? How many people have been crushed with the realization of their sinful condition openly weeping or falling to their knees under the burden of conviction as result of the gospel you preached? How many people have come to complete repentance as result of the gospel you preached? How many people are currently being discipled by you yourself or someone directly related with your ministry as result of the gospel you preached?

If you are preaching the gospel these fruits will be added to you. But are you are preaching a weak and powerless gospel void of fruit?

[b]Matthew 7:15-17 [/b]
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so [b]every good tree bringeth forth good fruit[/b]; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 [b]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.[/b] 20 [b]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.[/b]

The Scripture says "by their fruits ye shall know them". Yet some people claim that they don't know their fruit because they are just sowing seeds and that those seeds may well produce fruit down the road that they don't know about. Well, this is true to a sense, some twist this truth to attempt to explain their lack of fruit. Although we do sow seeds that are harvested later down the road it can never be an excuse for lack of visible tangible fruit, for the Scripture says "by their fruits ye shall know them" If you don't know your own fruit, how can I know you by your fruit? Dose the Gospel you preach produce visible tangible fruit?

[b]John 15:4-6[/b]
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth [b]much fruit[/b]: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Notice how the Scripture says "much fruit" not "some fruit" or "a little fruit" but "much fruit" Does the gospel you preach bring forth "much fruit"? Don't fool yourself by saying "I'm just sowing seeds" if you abide in Christ and preach the true Gospel it WILL bring forth much fruit that is both visible and tangible.

[b]John 15:7-9[/b]
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, [b]that ye bear much fruit[/b]; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Again the Scripture says "much fruit". Over the past year has the gospel you preached brought forth "much fruit" that is both visible and tangible?

[b]John 15:16 [/b]
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

So ask yourself when answering the questions in the first paragraph - Do your answers show evidence of as the Scriptures says "much fruit" or does your answers show evidence of as the Scripture says "a tree that bringeth not forth good fruit" that is hewn down, and cast into the fire. If you do not have visible and tangible evidence of much fruit, I warn you be aware that you are NOT abiding in Christ and preaching a weak and powerless gospel and a gospel entirely other then the Gospel of Christ which plucks men out of the fires of hell, out of the clutches of death, and out of the reign of sin and is a gospel of victory for this day of defeat, this gospel of deliverance for this day of bondage no only in theory and word but in demonstration of power by action.

"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth [b]much fruit[/b]"

Patrick

T-Shirts sold in Christian stores today read: “Jesus Is My Homeboy” but the Jesus of the bible is Lord, Savior, and Judge.

Amen. I think too often today we have put too much emphasis on the "relational" aspect of the gospel. As much as the relational aspect of the gospel is needed in our preaching, as Jesus often emphasized it when He spoke of "the Father", I think much preaching and many Christians have neglected the chief way Christ is understood in the NT: as Lord.

When we preach Christ as Lord, we convey that Christ is not just merely another person who is giving friendly advice, but rather, is One who gives commands that are to be obeyed. The relational aspect of the gospel, of Jesus being "my homeboy" keeps us from carrying out the commandments of Christ in a cold manner, but instead as one whose heart has been warmed by God. But the emphasis in the NT is on the Lordship of Christ.

So ask yourself when answering the questions in the first paragraph - Do your answers show evidence of as the Scriptures says "much fruit" or does your answers show evidence of as the Scripture says "a tree that bringeth not forth good fruit" that is hewn down, and cast into the fire. If you do not have visible and tangible evidence of much fruit, I warn you be aware that you are NOT abiding in Christ and preaching a weak and powerless gospel and a gospel entirely other then the Gospel of Christ which plucks men out of the fires of hell, out of the clutches of death, and out of the reign of sin and is a gospel of victory for this day of defeat, this gospel of deliverance for this day of bondage no only in theory and word but in demonstration of power by action.

Patrick, thank you for your 'fruitful' contribution. I do wish to bring a bit of balance here though.

I have recently been reading a biography of Adoniram Judson to my children. In case you don't know about him, he was America's first foreign missionary. He was called by God to go to Burma in the early 1800's. He and his wife Ann labored faithfully in Rangoon for many years without a single convert. Despite many hardships he managed to complete the only existing Burmese translation of the Bible available even to this day. Eventually, after years of labor, there were converts and a church established and one can look back and indeed say the was "much fruit".

On the other hand, there are certainly others who see 'fruit' almost immediately. Either way it is God who gives the increase in His timing. We are simply called to unswerving dedication wherever He may lead us.

In Christ,

Ron

Thank you Greg for your, as usual, well balanced and timely words of wisdom.

I would like to also state that my previous post was in no way directed solely at Jesse and his ministry. The post was not only for Jesse, but for all others who claim the name of Christ in ministry. This includes myself, you Greg, Jesse and everyone who ministers in the name of Jesus. I think it prudent to continually inspect our own fruit or look to see if in fact we have any at all.

Patrick

brethren
like greg said there must be balance. one can't hear only of a loving Father without knowing that God is just and as such will mete out the prescribed punishment on sinners. The Love of God is something completely foreign to us because it is a thing which is not inherent to us. Therefore our peception thereof is oft very jaded and leans a lot on our pre-Chris view of what love is hence a sentiment like this :

Our God is not harsh, as your words are, He is slow to anger, abounding in love grace and mercy, yet you heap abuse on countless men of God who don't measure up to your fierce immature fiery fleshly zeal.

bro Bartle God's love encompases His Righteousness, Holiness and Justice which means sin is not acceptable before Him. He is harsh toward sin. He is slow to anger indeed but heaven forbid you or anyone else make Him angry coz if you don't have the blood of Christ on you, there is no stopping Him. God's love doesn't mean we can get away with sin, we are forgiven but not exempt from the consequences thereof and we all need to be aware that our Lord requires that we REPENT for if we don't, we will die. God our Father saw the issue of our salvation to be one of such gravity that the only way it could be bought was by the blood of His Son who Himself was and is sinless. That is a frightening thing because it says if we goof off and reject that blood or treat it with contempt or the gospel thereof, God the Father will not be happy. If we are to preach, let us be called of God and preach what He would have us preach. it will offend people because the very nature of our God and His word is an offense to men. Our early Christian brethren didn't end up martyred in all manner of ways for being nicey nicey, they preached as they were led to preach and it was offensive. i'm not saying we ought to be offensive for the sake of it, but simply we ought to be aware that God's word is offensive and if we don't see that reaction from people, perhaps we ought to stop and check ourselves...

ouf job is not to convert/convict, Holy Spirit does that, we are to do whatever our Father says.

Do you think that your fiery condemnation resonates with the unrepentant?

if our Father calls any one of us to preach with such fire at a particular time, should we not obey Him? if the unrepentant person receiving the message doesn't repent and you have done as you were asked, let God deal with it. He will harden whomever He will. Anything beyond what God says we ought to do, is none of our concern.

No...they see some religious freek full of religious pride ranting on religion, they do not see Jesus Lamb of God, Saviour of the World, who humbled Himself to the point of nails driven thru Him.

if they see some religious freak and we've done as we were asked,what is that to us? should we not rejoice for the ridicule we receive for the cause of the gospel? Christ ended up on the cross because what He said was very offensive to the powers at the time, that's why the council had Him crucified, however they didn't know that they were fulfilling what God required for the remission of sins so He was crucified coz He was offensive but for the purpose of God being glorified in our salvation.

our God is Holy and as such requires we His children to be Holy. This Holiness we are called to is an offense to man because the light of it exposes the false holiness and false rightteousness of man. The message of repentance is rarely preached and as a result those who do preach it are looked at with contempt, same goes for those who warn of the eternal nature of damnation and hell, and those who speak of the Holiness and Righteousness of God which is an aspect of Him and His love which demands we be Holy as He is.

brethren, God the Father's Son paid with His very blood for us, i think it unwise to blaspheme His name and blood by misrepresenting Him by poor preaching. If we misrepresent God and hinder anyone from coming to Him either by preaching Him to be a teddybear who'll take us as we are without repenting or one who is seeking to condemn us we shall surely have to give an account and we'll have blood on our hands. i for one would rather not stand before God in such a situation.

let us preach and represent God as HE is, a loving God who requires that as many as would should repent and those who do not will surely die. AMEN.

God's love encompases His Righteousness, Holiness and Justice which means sin is not acceptable before Him. He is harsh toward sin. He is slow to anger indeed but heaven forbid you or anyone else make Him angry coz if you don't have the blood of Christ on you, there is no stopping Him.

Well said, brother.

The message of repentance is rarely preached and as a result those who do preach it are looked at with contempt

Again, so true and concise.

Hi everyone.

I thought this would be a good reminder for us concerning our responses to each other. If you haven't already, or even if you have, may I recommend opening this thread

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=view...

and click on the map of the [b]"Top 500 Spots in the world that access SI!"[/b]

That should give us an idea of amount of people that can potentially view our words.

I was wondering too, if we are praying for those who we disagree with [b]before[/b] we respond to them? I was thinking about this and decided that I had to do it myself before I said anything. When I came back to the computer I did not quite see the same things as I did before. Something else I thought of while praying is the question, why don't we do this, that is pray for those we disagree with before we post something?

Is it because of unbelief? Do we not believe that God will do something about it or perhaps that He will not do what [b]we want[/b] Him to do? Perhaps we are not meek enough to suffer patiently long enough to see God move when we can [b]instantly[/b] take it upon ourselves to mete out justice?

Some thoughts, for myself included.

That should give us an idea of amount of people that can potentially view our words.

I was wondering too, if we are praying for those who we disagree with before we respond to them? I was thinking about this and decided that I had to do it myself before I said anything. When I came back to the computer I did not quite see the same things as I did before. Something else I thought of while praying is the question, why don't we do this, that is pray for those we disagree with before we post something?

Is it because of unbelief? Do we not believe that God will do something about it or perhaps that He will not do what we want Him to do? Perhaps we are not meek enough to suffer patiently long enough to see God move when we can instantly take it upon ourselves to mete out justice?

Thanks Chris.

the left wing hippies.

Tis is a sad day when brothers in Christ, because of a comment, are sifted into politcal-like catogories.

Jesse,

I agree wholeheartedly. I want to read this message to the church that I attend.

I must say I have been disappointed with the attacks directed at your ministry lately. It must mean you are on the right track!!!

Murray

I heard a quote by Ravenhill saying what this generation needs is a good amount of good old fashioned "hell-fire preaching!" and

Greg,

This quote of Ravenhill is abused by many. Ravenhill actually said, "what we need is [b]SOME[/b] hell-fire preaching on repentance...." And indeed, we do need some. But if you examine the writings of Ravenhill and listen to his sermons, he spoke far more on other things. Even though highly focused on revival, I'd say the thing that characterized Ravenhill's sermons the most were the attributes of God. Such should be expected, especially since he sat under Tozer's ministry, who of course, who obsessed with such things.

Noah had no converts outside his immediate family. Jeremiah had zero converts. etc etc. You are mis-applying the scripture, "you'll know them by their fruits". The fruits here are not "converts" but their own personal fruits, the fruits of the Spirit. You measure and judge a man by his own personal conduct and character, but not by his converts.

First of all, you do bring up a good point in regards to some Old Testament prophets. But I am not talking about Old Testament prophets, but rather New Testament apostolic book of Acts Christianity - there is a difference. Can you name one Holy Spirit filled New Testament fruitless ministry written about in the Bible? And do we plant seeds? Yes, Yes, Yes!!!! But open air evangelist and street ministers should be doing more then just planting seed if they are endued with the power from on high. Phillip the evangelist had much fruit and so did every New Testament apostolic ministry written about in the Bible.

"When Christians humble themselves and consecrate their all afresh to Christ, and ask for this power, they will often receive such a baptism that they will be instrumental in converting more souls in one day than in all their lifetime before. While Christians remain humble enough to retain this power, the work of conversion will go on, till whole communities and regions of country are converted to Christ. The same is true of the ministry." Charles Finney

Secondly, I was NOT referring to personal fruit, but rather the fruit of a ministry. Again, there is a difference. Of course you judge a man by his by his own personal conduct and character, but not by his converts - this goes without saying. Should a ministry shine with the fruits of the Spirit and other spiritual fruits - of course, but should not a ministry produce fruits in like kind with the type of ministry it is - of course. What I was saying was that we should all examine our own ministries based on the fruits that they produce. With teaching ministry people should grow in wisdom. In a healing ministry people should get healed. What would you think about a healing ministry were no one got healed? In prophetic ministry things should come to pass that were prophesied. What you would think of a prophet who was always wrong? In a evangelistic ministry people should get saved. What would think of a evangelistic ministry were no one got saved? Point being we should all examine our own ministries based on the fruits that our ministries produce - if any at all.

And yes Patrick, people are getting saved through the ministry. People are coming to Christ. People are forsaking all their sin. People are being baptized. Drug addicts and drug dealers have been saved. Families have been restored. People have fallen on their knees in the streets and wept with conviction.

PRAISE GOD!!! This is truly wonderful to hear!!! I would like to make a suggestion though. Please don't take this the wrong way, just constructive criticism that may very well help you I the future.

Since this is the first many have heard about people are coming to Christ, people forsaking all their sin, people are being baptized, drug addicts and drug dealers have being saved, families have been restored, maybe you would consider writing about this in your news letters, update and semester summaries. I know that I would much rather hear about all of the baptism performed instead of all of the college news papers you made. And all of the salvations and people falling on their knees in the streets and wept with conviction, rather then the radio show and television coverage. And I would much rather hear the stories of drug dealers and drug addicts being delivered and families being restored then about the protests and opposition and "I love porn" signs. I am not doubting these things happen, just suggesting they make much better email update and portray your ministry in a much better light then you have in the past. Just a suggestion.

Patrick

Can you name one Holy Spirit filled New Testament fruitless ministry written about in the Bible?

Stephen had no converts. He did plant a seed though, that made it into the heart of a man named Saul. But he never saw the fruit of that labor.

What I was saying was that we should all examine our own ministries based on the fruits that they produce. With teaching ministry people should grow in wisdom. In a healing ministry people should get healed. What would you think about a healing ministry were no one got healed? In prophetic ministry things should come to pass that were prophesied. What you would think of a prophet who was always wrong? In a evangelistic ministry people should get saved. What would think of a evangelistic ministry were no one got saved?

Teachers teach. Prophets prophesy. Healers heal. Evangelists proclaim. You have confused the manifestation of a gift with the result the gift might potentially produce. The true fruit of a ministry is its faithfulness to doing what God has charged the minister to do.

The evangelist is not responsible for producing converts. That is something God does. The work of the evangelist is simply to faithfully sow the seed God has given him to sow. Whatever soil the seed happens to fall on is not to be his concern. For the seed he sows is still seed. His charge is simply to sow.

Stephen had no converts.

Not trying to be argumentative, but one can't say for sure if Stephen had no converts. In fact, if one was to guess it would be safe to assume he did have converts since the Bible states he was "full of faith and power" and did "great wonders and miracles". So we know that the gospel he preached was followed by and confirmed with power, wonders and miracles. Chances then would be very high that he did have converts. The sermon Stephen was killed for was not his first sermon.

The evangelist is not responsible for producing converts. That is something God does.

Well this is true I feel you a taking a Ray Comfort interpretation of this and perhaps looking at it wrong. I have heard Ray's teaching on this and would have to strongly disagree. Again, what you say is 100% true, but how you are viewing and applying it is wrong in my opinion. You can say that is possible for New Testament, book of Acts, Holy Spirit filled evangelist endued with power from on high to have a fruitless ministry in the sense of conversion, baptisms and disciples until you are blue in the face and I won't believe it for a second. This is not my experience, what I read about in the New Testament, or what I see throughout history.

Here are two very good resources on the subject.

Power From On High - Charles Finney - Chapter 5 is especially good.
http://www.gospeltruth.net/1944power_from_on_high/power.htm

Why London Is Not Converted - Charles Finney
http://www.gospeltruth.net/1849-51Penny_Pulpit/500605pp_whylondon_ntcnvt.htm

Brother Lazurus!

Keep going my brother, go in love......and dont be discouraged by the followers of Jezebel and the congregants of Laodicea!

Preach with that love of Christ in your heart, press on!

An remember that all these hateful and discouraging comments against you are not sent by our living God!

God bless u!!!

With the written Word before us, none of us would need to tell who's to preach what,really, God should have the monopoly over all of HIS messages, but I'm sure that the devil has his messages too! Only the Holy Spirit knows the best of words that come out of [i]HIS[/i] preachers' mouths. Besides, one can preach love till the end of time, but if 'love' is being preached without the Spirit's empowerment, that too is futile.

When Jesse posted this thread, I sensed an honorable heart and his love towards God. Those are [i]personal[/i] stuff !! Even if he's completely wrong, do we need to doubt God's personal Hand in correcting him? Or can we not just pray for him along with gentle suggestions? Is he trying to sell us anything? Is he right out a false preacher?

It's not really fair for Jesse, even if we disagree with him, because, if he were to be Edwards, Spurgeon or Ravenhill, would he be treated the same way? We talk about firey sermons all the time in this forum, would he need to come home with 15000 converts to prove to us that his sermons were fiery or lovingly enough? Besides, does he even need to prove to any of us anything ?

[b]Psalm 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/b]

To 'love' GOD without honoring what HE said throughout the ENTIRE Bible, while holding on to just the 'love' bits, displays one's lack of understanding of how very deep HIS love really is for Christ, and for those who are saved by Christ.

Jesse,

I would simply encourage you to continue pressing into Jesus and pressing on. Romans 2 indicates that God's kindness leads to repentance. It's His kindness that exposes our sins, our utter depravity, our total inability to do it in the flesh. Praise God for the conviction of sin. How could a man repent if his sin was never exposed? I know there's something wrong in my heart if I'm not regularly confronted when I go to the house of the Lord.

Keep on seeking Jesus and preach what the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

Well this is true I feel you a taking a Ray Comfort interpretation of this and perhaps looking at it wrong. I have heard Ray's teaching on this and would have to strongly disagree.

I'm not taking a Ray Comfort interpretation of this. I'm simply taking what the Scriptures teach.

You can say that is possible for New Testament, book of Acts, Holy Spirit filled evangelist endued with power from on high to have a fruitless ministry in the sense of conversion, baptisms and disciples until you are blue in the face and I won't believe it for a second. This is not my experience, what I read about in the New Testament, or what I see throughout history

Well if you are going to have such an attitude, you can be full of pride all you want. However, not once does Scripture put forth a doctrine that in anyway says that geniune Spirit-filled ministry must produce converts. While such will probably occur, Scripture in no way teaches such a thing must occur.

Furthermore, you cannot simply dismiss the likes of Jeremiah and other Old Testament prophets rather "fruitless" ministries simply because they were in the "Old Testament." Paul says these men's lives served as an example for us, upon whom the end of the ages have come. For the minstries of Jeremiah and the like were indeed Spirit-filled ministries.

You can try to drive some sorta rigid division between the testaments in regard to charismatic ministry, but the fact of the matter is that charismatic ministry in both testaments is charismatic ministry regardless of the dispensation. For the ministry of the Old Testament prophet actually serves as a paradigm for all New Testament ministry. It was the hope of Moses that all God's people would become "prophets," and it was the hope of the Old Testament prophets that the experience of the Spirit that they enjoyed would one day be that of the whole people of God.

Therefore, our experience as Spirit-baptized believers is that of the Old Testament prophet, though the exact giftings may differ. It will include not only the success of the Old Testament prophets, but it will also include the experience of the rejection the Old Testament prophet experienced.

Hey Jimmy,

I don't have time to respond fully to your post, but I will as soon as I get the chance. But I did want to apologize if you felt I came across with an attitude. I am sorry. Sometimes it is hard to tell the tone and attitude through the written word on a web forum. I can assure you that I did not intend to come across with an attitude and again, I apologize.

I do however think that we can make a clear and concise case in Scripture that a Spirit filled ministry endued with power from on high will see converts and disciples. I will make this case when I get a chance. Finney does a good job presenting such a case in the links I provided in my previous post.

Hi everyone.

KingJimmy,

Furthermore, you cannot simply dismiss the likes of Jeremiah and other Old Testament prophets rather "fruitless" ministries simply because they were in the "Old Testament."

I think you have a point here. Scanning through this thread, Jeremiah came to my mind also. Ezekiel also...

For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel; Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand....

...Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.

But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

This comes to mind also, in terms of unity of operation through the different periods in the history of God's people...

Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time [b]the spirit of Christ[/b] which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I suppose I have a special interest in this, as my earliest background in the faith has been from the Pentecostal/Apostolic traditions. From them I had gotten the impression that they felt ministry had to be accompanied by certain phenomena as found in the book of acts and elsewhere, in order to be genuiniely Apostolic; this was my impression.

I wonder though is it wise to [b]always expect[/b] a particular demonstration of power or manifestation of the supernatural in every circumstance and in all periods of history, even without regard to the spiritual conditions of the people and culture? Shouldn't we also consider the character of God when determining what we might expect Him to do, and not [b]only[/b] examples of His actions in the past. I suppose the question 'what is God ultimately seeking to accomplish in this' is just underneath the surface and behind the face of this thought.

I think also, of Christ's words to the people He spoke to on earth

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

and what He said here also

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Another question that arises from this: what would be the outcome of a nation such as America, with its [b]rich[/b] religous history and [b]superabundance[/b] of Bible knowledge and Gospel light, experiencing these types of manifiestations of the supernatural, and those of the Apostolic era. Would she still be standing [b]40 years[/b] later?

Some thoughts,

Chris

Dear bartle,
Would you preach Another Jesus?
Would you preach Another Gospel? [b]2Corinth 11:4, Galatians 1:8[/b]
Would you preach A Message Void of Hell?
Would you preach A Message Void of Repentance?
Would you preach A Message Full of False Peace?
Would you preach Anything except the Word of God?

I agree %100 with Lazarus1719 (Jesse Morrell)

Jesse,

I have heard the story of George Street and I love it. Of course we can not tell the fruit that is produced from passing out tracts. This goes without saying and never once did I even suggest this was even remotely possible. I was talking about street preaching and evangelizing either one to one or in small groups as often happens when on the streets. When we pass out tracts most often takes them and reads them at another time and place. This is obvious.

I got out my copy of "Why Revival Tarries" and read Chapter 16 "Give Me Children Or I Die" from which you quoted and I can assure you that in no way Ravenhill is justifying what he refers to in that Chapter as childless or barren ministries and preacher. Please read that Chapter and you will see. He is talking about the agony and humiliation and travail and weeping brought on by a childless or barren or as I have said a fruitless ministry or preacher. To justify such a preacher or ministry is not at all what Ravenhill was doing in that Chapter or in the book. It seems to me you have severely twisted a quote from Ravenhills book to try to justify yourself or prove your point. Read Chapter 16 and see if Ravenhill is even remotely trying to justify fruitless (childless) preachers or ministries. You can try to justify and childless and barren preacher if that is what you wish to do. But I have said my piece and won't be drawn into some contentious argument back and forth. Like I said you can justify barren and childless preacher and ministries if you wish, but it sadly seems you have completely missed the point.

Patrick,

I wouldn't call Jesse's ministry fruitless or barren. Jesse is a great encouragement in my walk and his teaching is excellent and uncompromising.

If numbers are the measure you use to determine a man's fruit. Than Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen must be the godliest men around.

Murray

love, mercy, forgiveness, sonship, friendship, reconciliation, etc etc
…..they all still must be preached in a biblical manner.

Or maybe these words don’t mean much because we ourselves have never experienced them, or are slipping away from our Lord. So they are merely theological theories to our minds. Thus these powerful, radical life-changing realities aren’t good enough for us anymore. So we feel better (and more powerful) when we can blast people out of their slumber by shouting loudly enough about hell, or we confront them about their sins like a bull charging full steam directly at them. We don’t ever ask ourselves the question; Why should anyone believe me more then the JW’s or the Mormons? Our arrogance must first be whittled away before the light of the GOSPEL can be seen through us. For even a tiny bit of pride can become a stench to the non-believer, and can reinforce the skeptics presuppositions about us.

Now, please don’t feel like I’m pointing fingers here. I have had my share of fleshly attempts to remove specks from other’s eyes - ex, my husband. Let, me tell you, there is a reason wives are told in scripture that they will be more effective by living a quiet peaceful life, and setting a good example. It works. We need to apply that truth broadly. There are many times when we speak far louder through meekness and gentleness. And the Gospel (for what it REALLY IS) can readily be seen.

That is not to insinuate that confrontation is out of line. Indeed there are times when it is the loving thing to do. But when divine love cannot be seen in us, our words only reinforce resistance. We must consider how we are treating others in our attempts to point out their sins against us. Treat older men with respect and like a father, younger men like your brother….

Really, we have failed to preach a powerful gospel, but have largely preached an impotent gospel that cannot produce life. I am not equating power with a human brute force of “coming against” another human being. I am speaking of the lack of DIVINE power- the power that awakens the conscience.

This morning I read through Matthew, just to examine the preaching style of our Master. I was amazed! (I realize that someone has already combed through the gospels to point out the times that he called judgment on the Pharisees. But that was not his general manner of dealing with people. Also, that is something other than PREACHING THE GOSPEL).

Look at how successful Jesus was, simply by PREACHING THE GOSPEL. He rarely needed to point out people’s sins. His parables had amazing convicting power in themselves. We should use them more.

Jesus called the disciples and they followed him. That IS repentance. They didn’t need to be told a list of their sins first. They simply left their past behind. I could go through all the examples but that would take too long. Jesus did indeed teach right from wrong, as we read in the Gospels. But, his preaching wherever he went had an amazing effect.

To separate the word “preach” from the word, “Gospel’ would be like separating baseball from the bat and ball. It can’t be done or it is no longer baseball. Paul say, “ I am not ashamed of the Gospel because it is the POWER for salvation….” Rom. 1:16.

Diane

Jesse spoke earlier about his unwillingness to preach another gospel. I praise God for that. I feel that it is better not to preach at all than to preach another gospel.

Galatians is a book mainly addressed to a “different” gospel - one that was endangering the church. I believe that very same “different” gospel is threatening our church today - more than any other perversion of the Gospel. It is the gospel of law rather than Spirit. It is preaching a life of principles rather than the person of Jesus Christ. It is an attempt to clean up lives rather than embrace the new life.
It is a gospel that wears us out rather than empowers us. It is a dead gospel. And it is being preached by countless zealous people in God’s household.

I won’t say more on that now, but perhaps in the near future will start a thread on it.

Diane

I wouldn't call Jesse's ministry fruitless or barren

Neither would I or did I. I honestly don't know. Jesse said that is not, so I will take him at his word.

Patrick,

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

Murray

bartle wrote:

you asked me:

Would you preach Another Jesus?

[b]no[/b] There is only ONE Messiah, and as John said of Him, "God is love, He who lives in love lives in God and God in him".

Would you preach Another Gospel? 2Corinth 11:4, Galatians 1:8

[b]no There is only ONE Gospel[/b], and that is the Blood that the Lamb of God shed that atones for all sins.

Would you preach A Message Void of Hell?

no, if I preach a message that one should get under the Blood, that IS a message that's void of hell.

Would you preach A Message Void of Repentance?

no How could one drink from the Living Water that Messiah offers and not be turned from their unregenerate selves?

Would you preach A Message Full of False Peace?

no What would a message of "False Peace" sound like anyway? To me, "False Peace" sounds like a bunch of religionists wrapping their religion around themselves and feeling very secure and warm in their self righteouness and religiousity,

Be very wary about agreeing 100% with another human being, we are all fallible and prone to error, and two, try and stay away religion.
Religion kills, Jesus saves.

I am far from religion.
Religion is a set of rules a regulations that can not save.
True Christianity is a Liveing Relaitionship with the God Almighty, Jesus the Son of God.
[b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000]Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]

How would you see the first thread in this post so loaded down with religious self-pride.

I see fervor in Truth, and stalwart in his resolution for his preaching.

Our God is not harsh, as your words are.

yet you heap abuse on countless men of God who don't measure up to your fierce immature fiery fleshly zeal.

Do you think that your fiery condemnation resonates with the unrepentant?

No...they see some religious freek full of religious pride ranting on religion,

try and stay away from religion.
Religion kills, Jesus saves.

they do not see Jesus Lamb of God, Saviour of the World, who humbled Himself to the point of nails driven thru Him.

Hear me, don't ever insult our Lord by calling yourself a preacher,

brother slav, beautiful, encouraging spirit filled words. to God be the glory!

Amen NotMe. Recently I was street preaching and some heckler popped up and started quoting Marx about how religion is the opium of the masses, for weak minded individuals who need a crutch to stand on, then started espousing some junk about the Gnostic Gospels and the like. Of course, in such situations one is very tempted to argue at a "scholarly" level about such stuff, and debate apologetically.

I started to go down that road when God showed me to do otherwise. I started to then testify that I indeed was a weak individual who was in need of the grace of God to live out my day, as I was in need of the resurrection power of Christ to live in victory over sin, etc. And then I could talked some about the purity of the word of God, and the inspiration of Scripture given by the Holy Spirit by holy men of old, etc.

This eventually caused the heckler to simply shut up and listen, and others began intently listening too, as frankly, most of them had no ability to even remotely talk about issues of scholarship, and probably hadn't even heard about Gnostic Gospels. But the Spirit of God really seemed to get a hold of a few people, and some of them you could just tell were being drawn by God. Eventually local security came and shut me down, so I wasn't able to continue in my preaching.

However, by the end of it the heckler who was trying to cause me so much trouble ended coming over and shaking my hand. Others did to, saying they really appreciated what I had to share. God only knows what any of them did with what I said that night. But I am quite confident that whatever happened, God did truly do something in some people. However, had I simply whipped out my apologetic tool kit and debate skills, I probably wouldn't have accomplished anything.

God bless.

Amen Jesse, I dont have much time to respond like I would like to but im putting up a article here by a brother Andrew Strom, and a similiar cry about the state of the Gospel. It seems to me that the supposed "church" as a whole has become truly hardened to the true gospel, and its true biblical representation, so much so we are offended and repulsed by the true gospel. We label it unloving, hateful, judgemnetal.

Act 26:20 Instead, I preached to those in Damascus first, and to those in Jerusalem and in all the region of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance.

Everywhere Paul went he preached repentence, and bearing fruits worthy of repentence. As did John the baptist, and Jesus. And Jesus commanded His Disciples to go preaching repentence and the gospel of the kingdom. How can you preach repentence from sins without preaching against sin. How can you preach soberness without breaching against drunkness, this is absurd.

(Mat 3:2) and saying, "Repent, because the kingdom of heaven has come near!"

(Mat 4:17) From then on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, because the kingdom of heaven has come near!"

(Mat 11:20) Then He proceeded to denounce the towns where most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent:

(Mar 1:15) "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the good news!"

(Mar 6:12) So they went out and preached that people should repent.

(Luk 13:3) No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as well!

(Luk 13:5) No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as well!"

(Luk 16:30) "'No, father Abraham,' he said. 'But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

(Act 2:38) "Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(Act 3:19) Therefore repent and turn back, that your sins may be wiped out so that seasons of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

(Act 8:22) Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

(Act 17:30) "Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent,

(Act 26:20) Instead, I preached to those in Damascus first, and to those in Jerusalem and in all the region of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance.

(Rev 2:5) Remember then how far you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.

(Rev 2:16) Therefore repent! Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

(Rev 2:21) I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality.

(Rev 2:22) Look! I will throw her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her practices.

(Rev 3:3) Remember therefore what you have received and heard; keep it, and repent. But if you are not alert, I will come like a thief, and you have no idea at what hour I will come against you.

(Rev 3:19) As many as I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be committed and repent.

(Rev 9:20) The rest of the people, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands to stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which are not able to see, hear, or walk.

(Rev 9:21) And they did not repent of their murders, their sorceries, their sexual immorality, or their thefts.

(Rev 16:9) and people were burned by the intense heat. So they blasphemed the name of God who had the power over these plagues, and they did not repent and give Him glory.

(Rev 16:11) and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, yet they did not repent of their actions.

Peter reveals to us in this scripture that Jesus commanded all His disciples to preach that He was chosen to Judge the world, the apostles were commandent to preach the judgement to come.

Act 10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people, and to solemnly testify that He is the One appointed by God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you, insult you, and slander your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
Luk 6:23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! Take note--your reward is great in heaven, because this is the way their ancestors used to treat the prophets.
Luk 6:24 But woe to you who are rich, because you have received your comfort.
Luk 6:25 Woe to you who are full now, because you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now, because you will mourn and weep.

This scripture speaks so strongly i believe to us, If Jesus was killed by His own people He came to, if they tried to stone Him many times, He said they hate me because i testify that there works are evil. If the apostles except John were all martyerd, if many other faithful brothers were similiarly treated, and if the world is still evil as its ever been if not worse, they why in america are we not being persecuted, i submit because we are not preaching the gospel, but another gospel, just as our brother Jesse is warning us about.

Luk 6:26 Woe to you when all people speak well of you, because this is the way their ancestors used to treat the false prophets.

Everyone speaking well of a ministry, or evangelist is not a good sign at all, especially of fruit. Numbers are not an absolute in succes in a ministry, they sure can a be a sign of false teaching though, you cannot judge a ministry but its outward success ie descions, baptisms, etc.

This nation is so hardened to true christianity and true preaching of the gospel, theres much hard and rocky ground to plow through.

The Law which the bible says reveals knowledge of sin, was intended to be preached to sinners, as paul reveals here he did.

1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, provided one uses it legitimately.
1Ti 1:9 We know that the law is not meant for a righteous person, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and irreverent, for those who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10 for the sexually immoral and homosexuals, for kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching
1Ti 1:11 based on the glorious gospel of the blessed God that was entrusted to me.

How can one repent unless he knows why he needs to repent and what from, how can he understand what he has broken unless he knows the commandment, How can one understand the judgement unless he understands the righteousness by which he will be judged. How can we preach the grace and love of God , without first preaching the righteousness, holiness of God, his law, judgements, and sin, and judgement.

Lets get back to the book, back to real Christianity.

If anything we need to preach harder, Paul said knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade me, and the love of Christ contrains us. I agree we must have love as absolute motives, and empowerment of the Spirit. Yet we truly need more preachers, i believe that will cry aloud against the sins of lost and the lukewarm church, repentence, bearing fruits of repentence, and faith toward Jesus Christ.

May the Lord open our eyes to His truth,

In Yeshua our Messiah,

joshua
WE'VE LOST the GOSPEL
-by Andrew Strom.

There is no tragedy in the world worse than this - the church
losing the gospel. We could have a hundred terrorist attacks, or
earthquakes, or hurricanes, and it would still not outweigh the
tragedy of this one thing - WE HAVE LOST THE GOSPEL.
Nothing can compare to this disaster - nothing.

For when you lose the gospel, you lose salvation. People are
actually no longer becoming saved. (Remember, Paul said that
the gospel is the "POWER OF GOD unto salvation"). And when
people are no longer truly becoming saved, you also lose the
church. For no true gospel = no true church.

People will tell me that I am being too "drastic". Well, I want to
say to you that I am not being drastic enough. In fact, if I were to
shout through 1000 megaphones directly into your ears, it would
not be possible for me to overemphasize just how disastrous and
awful and horrific it is that our backslidden Western church today
has - to all intents and purposes - lost its gospel. And in doing so
it has lost its very reason for being.

We tell everybody that all they need to do is say a little rote
prayer accepting Jesus as their "personal savior". Tell me, where
is such a thing in Scripture? Does such a thing even come close
to existing? Can you recall even ONE person doing such a thing
to become a Christian in the Bible? Did any of the Apostles in Acts
ever say to someone, "Just repeat this little prayer after me"? Or
"Quietly slip up your hand - no need for anyone to see"? Can you
remember ANYONE in Scripture doing anything like that?

No, you can't. That is because nobody ever did. It is all a modern
fabrication - a complete invention. -This is no salvation at all. We
act like people can safely forget about CONVICTION of sin and
DEEP REPENTANCE and WATER-BAPTISM and getting FILLED
with the Holy Spirit. -Just "optional extras", eh? But look at 'Acts'
and tell me - was there ever such a thing as real Christianity with-
out these things? And what about getting a CLEAN CONSCIENCE
(-washed in the blood) and KEEPING IT CLEAN? Are we ever told
how to walk in THAT today?? -To actually "walk" in the washing of
the blood of Jesus? To be clean, to be utterly "Clean", to be
EVERY WHIT CLEAN?? (-The most important thing in the world).
Where is this in our gospel? Where is the transformed life? Where
is the "FREEDOM" from sin?

We have lost it all. Our people very rarely repent. They often go
for years without baptism (-meaning, according to Romans 6, that
their "old man" is not yet dead - and so they simply cannot live
a new life in Christ). Read Romans 6 sometime and ask yourself
this question- "If I have not been baptized, then is my old life
"buried" with Christ or not? Is my 'old man' dead or not?" -This is
why the apostles always baptized people STRAIGHT AWAY.

And then we often fail to get people 'FILLED' with the Spirit straight
away too - let alone "walking" in the Spirit. Tell me, how are we
supposed to have 'HOLINESS' if we have not even been filled with
the "HOLY" Spirit? Why do you think that the apostles always
made sure that people became Spirit-filled STRAIGHT AWAY??

Most of us do not even have "Day One" Christianity as it was in the
Bible. We have lost the gospel and we don't even know it. We have
invented a gospel of 'convenience', a gospel without the cross, a
gospel without holiness or the power to live a Christian life. -A
gospel that shows no-one how to get a CLEAN CONSCIENCE
or how to WALK IN IT. I want to say to you that such a gospel is
NO GOSPEL AT ALL. And we should be ashamed of ourselves
for preaching such a travesty.

No wonder today's church is lukewarm! The gospel is the building
block upon which everything else is built. Without it we have
nothing - literally nothing. It affects all that we do and all that we
are. To lose it is simply the worst disaster imaginable. So how on
earth can we get it back?

Well, we have spoken about "Revival" many times on this List. But
what a lot of people don't realize is that the 'RETURN OF THE
GOSPEL' was often the key that brought about the Great
Awakenings - the GOSPEL being restored and preached in power.
The longest-lasting Revivals always involved the "RETURN OF
THE GOSPEL". That is precisely what was happening with the
preaching of Wesley, Finney, Whitefield, etc. And it has to happen
again today!

So "Revival" to me is far more than just a fleeting visitation. It is
to be the long-lasting restoration of the true gospel - and thus the
true church also. If we want true Christianity restored today, we
must first see THE GOSPEL restored. It is the most important
key to it all. O God, send such a Revival! BRING BACK THE
GOSPEL and those who will PREACH IT! O God, we cry out to
you in the mighty name of Jesus. Amen.

Send feedback to- prophetic@revivalschool.com

God bless you all.

Andrew Strom.

No wonder today's church is lukewarm! The gospel is the building block upon which everything else is built. Without it we have
nothing - literally nothing. It affects all that we do and all that we are. To lose it is simply the worst disaster imaginable. So how on
earth can we get it back?

Truer words have never been spoken. Today the word "Gospel" means far too many things in the church. It means not going to movies, or better financial stewardship. It means feeling peace for one's soul, or feeling sorrow for the world. It means prophetic gifts, moving worship experiences, and picketing abortion clinics...It means everything precious outward, without the most precious pearl we need: A new heart in Christ.

This past year I keep returning to Wesley's sermon "Almost Christian." If there is ever a message for our Western civilization this is it. We are too educated in Christianity to truly hear it. Our Church has too many distracting channels of Christian entertainment and philosophy.

God uses those who I disagree with to shame me...to teach me how ignorant of the gospel I am. I used to want to argue with Finney, but now I wish I could find him in the phone book and call him up. I wanted to dispute Wesley Christian perfectionism, but now I have become a student. I wanted to insist on a gradual death to this world, and a gradual resurrection in Christ, but many on this forum showed me otherwise.

Now I am a novice all over again. I am a fool because I thought I was wise. I was an almost Christian, though I loved all things in the church for so long. But, to my surprise, I feel the Lord telling me we really don't have much time left in this age...there is not much time to shave the flaws off each others philosophy and theology. Instead, I am renewed towards the purpose of grabbing who ever will come, as if fleeing a coming storm. Our evacuation doesn't need to be pretty or orderly...let's just get moving away from this world of death and sin.

Brothers, fellow ministers of the gospel, we are all ragged but hopeful refugees saved from the coming destruction. Let’s not squabble over who knows more about the gospel. I am all ears because I realize how little I know. If you must teach someone...teach me! Some of us are convictors, and some are consolers...I welcome them all under the banner of the true gospel. There should be no war between them...let each serve their part in Christ's whole body.

I have heard that it is possible to catch a monkey in the wild through a simple trap: place fruit and nuts in a hollow gourd, and then bore a small hole in the side of the gourd to tempt the monkey. The hole should be small enough to allow the monkeys fingers to enter the hole, but too small to allow a fist full of fruit and berries to escape.

I fear the Western church is that monkey. Under the banner of the gospel we have included too many concerns. Our anxious fists are grabbing for too many worldly or superficial things, even claiming them as promises from God.

Yet, as I grow tired of my tolerance for sin and loveless ness, (and tired of hiding it from you) I want to let go of the world. I'm not talking about the world in the movie theater, or the bar, or on Wall Street. I'm talking about the world that is quite comfortable in our churches...the ambition to be great and be heard, to dominate one another. The world in our churches keeps people from entering the kigdom of heaven…making even ‘christians’ twice the sons of hell because they no longer see their need for the gospel.

So I welcome the convictors and hard preachers. Spare not my soul to tolerate sin! Spare not the rod...I will not die. Invite the sons of thunder back into the congregation and eject the sons of therapy. Unless a 'Christian' be born again they are damned. Indeed, how great is the condemnation for those who hear the gospel daily...perhaps there is no greater devil then the one who knows the words but, because of unbelief, uses his confession to deceive others. They do not believe Christ gives a New Heart, so they try to whitewash themselves and numb their conscience against lust, greed, and idolatry.

And I welcome the consolers. Teach me about the love of Christ that always believes and always hopes for redemption. Why should we talk about the love of God if our ambition is personal safety just like the world? What is man that God is mindful of him? It is a mystery but the Holy God does indeed think about mankind. How arrogant I am to not be also mindful of man, so self-absorbed even in my own "spirituality." Let me not wrap myself up in garments of praise every Sunday morning if I do not care about the naked and hungry!

At times, we are both these roles, learning and heeding one another’s admonitions...there is no real division here, except in our pride and unbelief. Whatever you are in Christ, live with the clarity of eternity in your heart. This world is a vapor, and unless we can teach that mean must be born gain, completely dead to this world, and completely alive in Christ, they will not see heaven!

Like I said, I seem to be knowing less and less of what I thought I knew. Once again I am letting go of my fistful of useless Christian "knowledge". Unless I can testify of a changed heart I have no useful testimony. I could hide from the rest of you for a hundred years as a Sunday school teachers or even a missionary, but praise be to God I can not hide from him. He is relentless, and I have learned how flaky I am. So please hard preachers lay it on me. And mercy givers live your courage without thought of self. Do not worry about appealing to seekers...God is doing the seeking and if a man is truly thirsty, only the water of life will help him. All others want you to entertain or comfort them in their lost condition. They love this world, including the world church. They will be content to sing our worship songs and shout amen to our sermons for a hundred years if they can keep their evil hearts out of the light of truth and reality!

But we are not with them! We, who want to live holy and love wholly, know that grace has not been extended to the sinner so that we can lie to one another and to God about the real blackness men cover up. There is only one remedy: the death to this worldly religious effort and the new birth to depending on Christ solely for every life-giving breath we take.

MC

"The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil." (John 7:7)

Bartle, you may want to check out John Wesley's diary. You might want to check up on the early street meetings of the Salvation Army. You'd be surprised!

The Lord said that we would be hated for preaching the gospel, persecuted, beaten, cast from religious synagogues, made a mockery of and killed.

"God loves you and has a plan" is not this gospel. Try instead preaching (with tears) the real gospel: "Because of your sin, God hates you (Psalm 5:5) and is angry with you every day (Psalm 7:11), and his plan is to mercilessly judge you and cast you into hell fire." Only then preach the wondrous cross: "But God demonstrates his love towards us in that while we yet yet sinners, Christ died for us. He was crushed in your place so that you might be reconciled unto Him and receive eternal life! Repent of your sin, put your faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from this wicked generation."

I think we should always correlate God's love with a blood-stained cross. Because outside of the cross, it's nothing but unspeakable doom.

If you truly loved souls and the precepts of God, you would compassionatley warn sinners of this very thing. You would plead with them to repent to flee from the wrath of an angry God.

Bartle, but don't take my word for it; study the ministries of the early, heroic saints. Study Spurgeon's gospel, Wesley's gospel, Whitfield's gospel, Jonathan Edward's gospel, William Booth's gospel, Finney's gospel, etc. You'll see uncompromised repentance preaching. You'll see the law of God being used to bring knowlege of sin. The lawless, antinommian heresy that is today's "God loves you and has a plan" gospel started about 100-150 years ago. Go look it up yourself! It's actually a pretty old heresy that has recently had a resurgence. Christians embrace it because they either don't know any better (and I'm sure you're a sincere and well-meaning brother!), or because they don't want to suffer the persecution, hatred and ridicule Jesus promised for all those who preached the true gospel of repentance.

dear bartle, i havent read the whole thread here, i can understand some of your opinions. But something whit the way you bring up your "views",

as i understand it you dont like jesses style/message to warn the sinners that they are in danger of being eternaly lost, but then you warn jesse that he might be?

-- watch out brother, many many religionists will be saying to Him "Lord Lord", to which He will reply, " I never knew you".

i understand jesse and what he is doing, i understand why hes doing it the way he is.
i think you all should read JOHN 21:15 - 23

Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Joh 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, WHAT IS THAT TO THEE? follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

if jesse is preaching , is being persecuted, is suffering , is bringing conviction, is doing his work for the lord... in another way that the lord will have you do it... WHAT IS THAT TO THEE?

follow you jesus christ... i would recomend you would study the fear of god, becuse you CAN NOT KNOW the love of god until you know the fear of god.

i will pray for you all, and whatever road god will have you walk, i pray you will walk on it all the way to heaven so that i can see you there.

gods peace to you
christian

You said "shame on you"......wow i have only ever heard that once before.

secondly.......i would like the fill in the in betweens of what u posted earlier.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Why does he say "depart from me"? Because they continued in their sins......They did not hear the call to repentance at their altar call!

RELIGION! = Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Please dont use the word always in a derogitive manner......

although i understand what u mean...it is still good to have that pure "religion" that James states.....thus i like to use the word.

God bless yall!

Compton,

Amen, Amen, Amen!

Murray

bartle,

I will ordinarily read and consider all that anyone ever write or say until I hear an abusive tone.

I will tell you this Jesse, that what I just read from your pen is so loaded down with religious self-pride that I beg you to seek a time of fasting from writing anything on a computer, or shouting anything from a megaphone. I beg to seek 40 days alone with God.

[b]Take that van and drive to the Mojave Desert,[/b] take 2 five gallon jugs of water, a tent, a sleeping pad, and a Bible, stay alone out there and read the Bible until your water runs out, and pray till you sweat. Beg God to kill the [b]embryonic pharisee[/b] that is rearing its [b]ugly head in your heart.[/b]

shame on you

Who is really displaying relgious self-pride?
So much hate !

Sad

Ormly wrote:

rather than give out with hellfire and brimstone.

By the way, Has anyone seen the video that was made word for word of the NIV called "Matthew"

I loved the way or how the man portrayed Jesus in this Chapter.

Dear Bartle,

I didn't mean for my post to come off as a personal attack. I am sorry you took it that way. If we we're talking face to face, you would see the Christian love I have for you.

When I typed "you", I was indicating the general mindset of popular Christianity today. I wasn't singling you or anyone else out on SI. Noticing in an earlier post, I saw you cited Romans 10:9 as being the true gospel. I felt I needed to respond and explain why I disagree with this. Please forgive me if it sounded like a personal attack.

Respectfully,

Paul

Ormly wrote:

That was Jesus, not us. He didn't tell us to preach that --- nor in that manner.

God uses those who I disagree with to shame me...to teach me how ignorant of the gospel I am. I used to want to argue with Finney, but now I wish I could find him in the phone book and call him up. I wanted to dispute Wesley Christian perfectionism, but now I have become a student. I wanted to insist on a gradual death to this world, and a gradual resurrection in Christ, but many on this forum showed me otherwise.

Now I am a novice all over again. I am a fool because I thought I was wise. I was an almost Christian, though I loved all things in the church for so long. But, to my surprise, I feel the Lord telling me we really don't have much time left in this age...there is not much time to shave the flaws off each others philosophy and theology. Instead, I am renewed towards the purpose of grabbing who ever will come, as if fleeing a coming storm. Our evacuation doesn't need to be pretty or orderly...let's just get moving away from this world of death and sin.

Brother, it seems criminal to extract out of the whole of your expression here. What an outstanding statement, begining to end. Whole heartedly concur.

Thank you MC.

Bartel,

Let me apologize too to you had I offended you with my own tone. It's tough enough to live in this hateful world, let not the devil divide the brethren and conquer us this way on SI.

I do somewhat understand what you were trying to say to us and Laz. And I do appreciate that to a certain degree as well. So often, our posts come with a lot of our past experiences, our own emotional make-up, temperament, and our own understanding pertaining to the things of God.(somewhat like Job's 3 'friends'). So forbearance is so much needed in order to maintain a certain degree of harmony, I guess.

In my mind, unless one comes with blasphemy to our LORD, overt insults to our CHRIST, and heresies against the Gospel, I am learning to forbear and to be patient, and to remind myself with I Cor 13 of how charity works.

Surely, I see Romans 8:28 in action here. Praise God!

mamaluk

Amen, brothers and sisters. Jesus said we'd be known by our fruits and not by our abilities to win arguments. Blessed are the peacemakers.

With Christian love to all of you, Brother Paul

I wanted to return to Jesse's original burden here.

Let me preface with this timely observation from Ron Bailey.

"Well, you might say, how can a person be sure that they have been born from above? This truth is captured in the phrase ‘the witness of the Spirit’. Notice we are back into the realms of a witness. Modern contemporary evangelistic counseling relies on a linking of Bible texts to convince the seeker of their regeneration. This is what A W Tozer inveighed against when he accused evangelicalism of ‘substituting logical deductions drawn from proof texts’ for the true Biblical doctrine of the Witness of the Spirit."

Looking back over some of my earliest posts on this forum, I wince at my vain thoughts. I leave them in place, because they show a progression...raw and embarrassing as it is. I thank God that "before I called He answered me..." He is the only seeker among us, while our seeker friendly churches are anything but friendly to God.

Though some might critique Jesse's style and tone...and perhaps his emphasis...I would not want our good intentions to stamp out the flame in his heart. (I know this is not the wish of ayone here.) Jesse believes that a person can be set free from sin, and this belief reflects faith in a living God who does indeed change men’s' hearts…not just their theological opinions.

I am ashamed to admit I did not see the great reason for revival in the church until just very recently. Now I see it more clearly brethren. I had thought that revival was like whip cream on top of a perfectly acceptable dessert. I thought revival was a matter of taking standard Christians and supercharging them, making them more energetic and zealous.

I was so very wrong.

Revival is needed because without it many in our "spirit-filled" churches will know nothing of the Gospel of the New Testament church. Revival is nothing less then a rediscovery of Jesus' life within the dead branches of Christianized institutions, church organizations, 501c non-profits, and even our own families. Simply put, without revival I fear there are many almost Christians who will go on falsely believing that they can enter heaven with hearts full of wickedness and deceit. Jonathan Edwards once preached that if everyone who thinks they are going to heaven actually goes there, then heaven will be filled with adulterers, fornicators, idolaters, practices of witchcraft, haters, liars, murderers, and drunks.

I wish I could compel in writing what I sense in the Spirit on this most important topic. Do we not understand that when we comfort people with simple prayers of "accepting" Jesus that we are greatly hindering them from entering the Kingdom of Heaven? A brother recently asked me if I am a heretic on this point. I said, according to the church I might be, because I weep with the sudden realization that in church there are professing Christians, even upon our Sunday morning platforms, which cannot testify of authentic salvation in Jesus...though they love to comfort others with their hollow evangelistic prayers and songs. They have never heard the Spirit call their name to face the charge of their awful sin and so they have never experienced the blessed deliverance from that burden, and the matchless fellowship with God that is there's in Christ.

There is greater hope for a burdened sinner then there is for an almost Christian. When one realizes they are a sinner, their sin can be met with the cross and blood of Christ. But for the almost Christian, there is less hope because they are blind.

There is no revival because our churches have become gospel-proof. The "accept-Jesus-go-to-heaven" message is the chief ingredient in a powerful counter-revival drug that has made the church drowsy and ineffectual. The moment one of us is stirred by the spirit of God to actually flee our sins and the wrath to come, others of us quickly rush to administer more of this drug. Another desperate crisis of conscience avoided. At all costs, Christians must feel peaceful and content like so many elderly being medicated and managed in a rest home…yet what many of us need is a season of anxiety, unrest and remorse.

Instead pious contemplative spirituality is becoming more and more popular these days. I like contemplation but if "spiritual contemplation" keeps you from actually entering into God's promises of deliverance from sin then contemplation will leave you damned my friend.

Yet there is a savior! We ask what do we need saving from? We are already saved! We are all expert theologians who "believe" the truth. It's the other guy that needs Christ...I'm already part of the 99! Lord help us...we do not weep for others because we do not weep for ourselves!

I have received recent comments that my writing has changed...well why not? What are we doing here? Buttressing our arguments? God forbid that I should ever claim anything but the cross of Christ...although I have clung to a great deal of other things with envy and strife even as I pretended to be Christian.

Even now to admit pretense and hypocrasy is hard. But admit it some of us must...where else will revival unto life begin if it does not come from an admission of death? O how easily we churched people allow ourselves to be embarrassed away from the blessings of God through Christ Jesus.

I challenged a ‘knowledgeable’ Christian recently with a box of crackers. I read them the ingredients on the box and asked them if they believed in these ingredients? Of course! Now I asked them to describe the cracker's taste for me. They could not because they had not eaten of it. Sure they could recite how to make a cracker but they had no experience of it!

Well, many in the church today can describe with poetic eloquence the righteousness and love of Jesus...why he came and died, and how men can be saved...but they have no real experience of it. They have not tasted and seen the goodness of the Lord. In fact, they don't believe that this goodness is real enough to change them at all. They don't believe because they know they are secretly, quietly, and desperately bound by lust, hate, jealousy, and unforgiveness.

For them the Gospel has been reduced to psychological comfort from the guilt of their sins. And upon this tragic carcass of a once living grace they invite "seekers" in to gnaw on dry bones of comfort with them. Yet right in their very bibles is described meat they know not of!

So Jesse sounds like he is preaching a hard word. But while we admonish him to 'balance' his delivery, let's not administer our "seeker friendly" Nyquil to him. Jesse will grow and certainly in the years to come will become wiser and more experienced. But his obedience and willingness is ever so precious to me. (As is all fervent preachers, teachers, and evangelists here in these forums are!)

I marvel at how Noah preached for a lifetime...seemingly to no effect. But there was an effect...his testimony stood the test of time. Even if a hundred generations of mankind reject Christ, let's not adjust the message because the 101st generation that does live for Christ will thanks us!

Bonhoeffer said that mankind has come of age, presumably because we are scientific and reasonable now. He was wrong...we are the same rebellious irrational children we always were. God offers his only son to redeem our corrupt hearts and we say no thanks…our well-meaning hearts are just fine the way they are. In Wesley and Whitfield’s day the church was pious, religious and dead, and so true Christians went to the fields and streets to preach. So it is in our day...many of us are almost Christians but alas, the last inch to the cross of Christ is the longest. We who were invited to the Lord's Table are in the end resistant...we do not pray…we do not fellowship with Christ, and instead kiss the world tenderly. We are friendly to seekers because we secretly seek the same love from the world they do.

So Jesus must invite others. They will overcome this world …they will be set free from their former sinful hearts and given a new heart at liberty to obey God. And they will see God. I want to be in their number!

In the meantime Jesse, continue your commitment to preach please. Yes consider the wise counsel of others...as I know you do. Without a savior, there is no salvation from sin, no matter how sorrowful we become. But never doubt your calling to preach repentance.

And if no one listens to you in your lifetime, know that others will thank you in future generations for not adjusting your message.

MC

Hi everyone.

Compton,

The moment one of us is stirred by the spirit of God to actually flee our sins and the wrath to come, others of us quickly rush to administer more of this drug. Another desperate crisis of conscience avoided.

This reminded me of something [i]I think[/i] I heard in one of the testimonies of Duncan Campbell, concerning an old farmer. This man was in such distress of soul, yet instead of instantly seeking to console him, the comment was made along the lines of [i]let him stew[/i]in it.

I'm reminded just now of Saul of Tarsus who was

three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

before a certain disciple...

Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be [u]filled with the Holy Ghost[/u].

O how easily we churched people allow ourselves to be embarrassed away from the blessings of God through Christ Jesus.

Amazing but true. I have found nothing so hard as facing embarrasment [b]after[/b] following after Christ(or should I say starting to follow Him and leaving off along the way?). What happened to that miserable wretch that was completely free to be smitten to pieces before a whole crowd of people having dropped all pretense of anything worthy in himself in a pool of tears upon the carpet? What happned to that man? I pray I find him again and loose this foolish air's of being anything other than dust.

In much need of an up-to-date confession,

Chris

Looking back over some of my earliest posts on this forum, I wince at my vain thoughts. I leave them in place, because they show a progression...raw and embarrassing as it is. I thank God that "before I called He answered me..." He is the only seeker among us, while our seeker friendly churches are anything but friendly to God.

MC, thank you for this. I too over the long course here have winced much, been embarrassed and humiliated, even feared to come back on here after some of the ill thought, emotionally driven ... prayerless, careless considerations allowed to escape this fallible mind. At the same time I am just as strangely glad for it and as I had mentioned to someone recently about the matter of deleting posts. I think it is for a good reason beyond just keeping matters of discussion intact.

Of all people, we ought to be the most honest and forthright, allowing ourselves this powerful humbling, being quick to forgive, to correct, to clarify ... to ... change our mind. And admit it. It is endearing to this soul and pray to the Lords thought as well. It seems strangely odd to me that we would want to hang unto that which would prove the opposite, that we are not proud by being more forthcoming about our shortcomings. It's a blessed thing brother.

Having said all that, I don't really recognize a 'change' in your writing as mentioned here;

I have received recent comments that my writing has changed...well why not? What are we doing here? Buttressing our arguments? God forbid that I should ever claim anything but the cross of Christ...although I have clung to a great deal of other things with envy and strife even as I pretended to be Christian.

Well said!

Wanted to tie this into your thoughts on revival. MC, I have also have begun to look at this in a different light...

Revival is needed because without it many in our "spirit-filled" churches will know nothing of the Gospel of the New Testament church. Revival is nothing less then a rediscovery of Jesus' life within the dead branches of Christianized institutions, church organizations, 501c non-profits, and even our own families. Simply put, without revival I fear there are many almost Christians who will go on falsely believing that they can enter heaven with hearts full of wickedness and deceit. Jonathan Edwards once preached that if everyone who thinks they are going to heaven actually goes there, then heaven will be filled with adulterers, fornicators, idolaters, practices of witchcraft, haters, liars, murderers, and drunks.

There is no revival because our churches have become gospel-proof.

And proud of it, seems we are coming even more full circle back to the sentiment expressed about [i]"How much is being 'accomplished' without the Holy Spirit"[/i].

Somehow I think your earlier expressions are tied to what kind of revival is needed if I could be so bold to put it that way, it has been my prayer at any rate, why this passage hasn't truly sunk in to the depths... Perhaps to break it up a little;

If my people,
Which are called by my name,

Shall humble themselves,

And pray,
And seek my face,

And turn
From their wicked ways;

Then

Will I hear from heaven,
And will forgive their sin,

And will heal their land.

2Ch 7:14

I know this may be emphasizing away from the matter at hand specifically, it may yet prove out some matters in how we deal with each other here.

"[i]I marvel at how Noah preached for a lifetime...seemingly to no effect. But there was an effect...his testimony stood the test of time[/i]"

!

I have tried to read this post in it's entirety, and would like to comment.

In my personal experience, and also as I see it in the Word of God, it is God's JUDGEMENT that convicts us and His KINDNESS and LOVE that brings us to Him in repentance. That is why both Jesse and Bartle are correct. We are all different, but I know that I personally want to hide and run in shame in the face of God's rod (as I should be), but the knowledge that the rod is held by hands that are nail-scarred for me is what melts my heart completely and turns me to God.
I completely agree that repentance and judgement are much needed in our world today. However, I see them as a wake-up call to the church and to people who are adament in their soft religionism. I think we who have been Christians so long sometimes forget what it is like to be out in the world--loaded down with sin and guilt and shame and addictions, longing for meaning and help, looking for truth--then the news that God loves you and died to set you free is like a breath of fresh air, hope, light in the darkness.
Let us not neglect the love and kindness of God along with the sterness and judgement. If God was not love, He would have let us all perish in our sins. Many, many lost people are fully aware that they are lost and sinful and perishing (the harvest is ripe), they need to hear the rest of the story--"God so loved"
As the song says:

God so loved the world that He gave
He gave and gave
He still gives today
And the only thing He came to take away
Was our sin
So we could all begin
To love His way

So grateful for His Love,
Phebe

P.S. Please remember that the judgement and wrath we speak of is God's--so let's not judge each other and speak condescendingly. Let's be careful that we do not have to repent of our attitude towards one another while speaking of repentance. And above all, let's remember to show God's love to our brothers as we speak of His love towards us.
:-)

Bartle,

I am not against those things you said, yes they are the gospel, but so is what i said, and the back drop to the gospel has always been repentence. I think your misunderstanding where were all coming from, im not saying the gospel, is only preaching the law, sin, repentence, heaven, hell, and no christ crucified for our sins, and Him raised for our justification. But only making a point that the back drop is a much needed and scriptual thing, that is much lacking in the modern gospel, and evangelism efforts today. I hope you understand where im coming from. Bless you Bartle.

Love in Christ,

joshua

Amen brother Amen.

THe previous Amen was to you Compton, well put.

Preach, PREACHER.....PREACH!!!