About tongues, again...

I see exactly what you mean. I've heard of Missionaries going to countries that they didn't know the language, but through tongues the people understood them. Is that what you mean?

Is this a fair comment? Do you see what I mean?

“For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.”
(Is 28:11 KJVS)

Good post. I believe there's a great misunderstanding about the differences between interpetation and translation. Two different things entirely.

Hi Linn,

Quote:

"Is this a fair comment? Do you see what I mean?"

Answer: No not yet.

Either the apostles spoke in a language that the hearer understood in his own language, or the speaker spoke in their language specifically and in understanding in their own language spoken were edified in the things of God. Either way it was a miracle, and God was Glorified in the speaking. These are not unknown tongues or a personal heavenly language that edifies no one.
Maybe by ones own personal pride in the speaking, but no understanding. Like Paul, either speak with understanding or don't speak.

1 Corinthians 14:18-19 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

What language do you think God speaks. Unknown? I don't think so. What language does the Holy Spirit speak, Unknown? I don't think so either. In What language do we hear God, one that is understood for the upbuilding of the saints and the truth of the Word of Who This Jesus is that is birthed in us, even to the things we don't understand, they are revealed also. If we can't understand why listen? If we can't speak understanding why speak?

1Co 14:18
Verse 18. I thank my God. Paul here shows that he did not undervalue or despise the power of speaking foreign languages. It was with him a subject of thanksgiving that he could speak so many; but he felt that there were more valuable endowments than this. See the next verse.
With tongues more than ye all. I am able to speak more foreign languages than all of you. How many languages Paul could speak, he has nowhere told us. It is reasonable, however, to presume that he was able to speak the language of any people to whom God in his providence, and by his Spirit, called him to preach. He had been commissioned to preach to the Gentiles, and it is probable that he was able to speak the languages of all the nations among whom he ever travelled. There is no account of his being under a necessity of employing an interpreter wherever he preached.

In this I won't put God in a box and say even if Paul spoke to a people whose language he did not know, which one might have been Asian where he was forbidden to go, I can not say that if he new no Asian languages that God could not have made it possible for the Gospel to be heard.

I see no where in any of Paul's writings that he needed an interpreter, he either spoke a language that his hearers understood or he did not go there or speak there. No matter, 5 words, 1I 2will 3praise 4the 5Lord, rather than 30 minutes of speaking words no one understands especially ones self.

I have always understood what I read, or hear, maybe not the depth of understanding that comes by study and revelation by the Holy Spirit but I can read and my hearing is still able to understand what I am hearing audibly, praise God. Why is it that unknown tongues are unable to be written and unknown languages are able to be written and them interpreted? I go to a Pentecostal church and no one is writing notes on the tongues that are spoken or even able to write what is being said then interpreted. I see no interpreted tongues in the bible especially written unknown tongues, just unknown not acquired languages by learning from birth that can be interpreted, and then understood in our acquired languages.

In Christ: Phillip

I think it is fair.

We try to put God into categories and systems that I think will be confounded when we all meet in glory. I mean that some of what we thought will be true, but there will be much we overlooked or just took at face value when there was much more.

I am not one to limit God. I think it is a legitimate idea. I was not there at Pentacost. I think we assume things must happen just like they did that one day. But I don't think we pray for earthquakes to drive people to Christ, but this was God's way in Acts.

I think we don't know as much as we think about what happened in those 28 books, and I think that we tend to forget about the other 27 books besides Acts 2. I don't see many riots, or preachers being punched in public, or Christians around here being thrown in jail, or people dropping dead for lying to the Holy Ghost, etc, etc, etc.

So it is interesting we have so many experts on tongues, and so few experts in continuing stedfastly in the apostle's doctrine, and I put that on myself, too.

1Co 14:181Co 14:18
Verse 18. I thank my God. Paul here shows that he did not undervalue or despise the power of speaking foreign languages. It was with him a subject of thanksgiving that he could speak so many; but he felt that there were more valuable endowments than this. See the next verse.
With tongues more than ye all. I am able to speak more foreign languages than all of you. How many languages Paul could speak, he has nowhere told us. It is reasonable, however, to presume that he was able to speak the language of any people to whom God in his providence, and by his Spirit, called him to preach.

Something else that seems to escape people is that tongues doesn't nessarily need to be human language >>> 1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels >>>. :-) Just to re-state your comment above with the reference and set it alone, just incase someone needs that reference. God Bless

All I mean is, that the disciples spoke in tongues, and as with my German friend, the Lord gave the other nationalities the interpretations as the tongues were being given.

It may well have been that for some reason God allowed the German friend to 'interpret' the tongue utterance but we cannot use this as a model and I doubt very much that she would have called what she 'heard' her 'own language'.

bro Dohzman

dohzman wrote:
Something else that seems to escape people is that tongues doesn't nessarily need to be human language >>> 1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels >>>. :-) Just to re-state your comment above with the reference and set it alone, just incase someone needs that reference. God Bless

true... :-) so true :-D

I can see the possibility of 2 scenarios, 1) all of those present spoke in tongues, there could have been many different tongues (languages) at once since they were all filled and speaking in tongues. 2) I 've observed that God for His own reasons doesn't always tie things up for us nicely, as we would like. Leaving some things for a mystery or even a miracle, this could be one of those times.

You do have me curious though, how do you see that passage in Acts2?

Isaiah 28:9-13 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

These particular Isaiah scriptures cannot be used to make an argument for speaking in unknown tongues, only the tongues (Languages) spoken at Pentecost.

Isa 28:11
For - This verse is to be understood as a response to what the complaining and dissatisfied people had said, as expressed in the previous verses. God says that he will teach them, but it should be by another tongue - a foreign language in a distant land. Since they refused to hearken to the messages which he sent to them, and which they regarded as adapted only to children, he would teach them in a manner that should be "much more" humiliating because of their lack of understanding of their own prophets, Quote: Isaiah 28:7-8 "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. He would make use of the barbarous language of foreigners to bring them to the true knowledge of God.

This is the same thing that happened a Pentecost, for what did they say? Acts 2:6-8 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The same adaptation of language but different outcomes. In Isaiah They were spoken to by foreign languages that they could not understand and hear the truth of God through them. In Acts The truth of God given to Galileans, and the Jews, (Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.) understanding in each's own language. One earthly adaptation of language and the other heavenly adaptation of language, and both to bring the Truth of God to man, one as scorn of Israel the other, the blessing of Jesus Christ and the filling of The Holy Spirit.

Isaiah:
With stammering lips - The word which is used here is derived from a verb ( לעג laag ), which means to speak unintelligibly: especially to speak in a foreign language, or to stammer; and then to mock, deride, laugh at, scorn (compare Isa 33:19; Pr 1:26; 17:5; Ps 2:4; 59:9; Job 22:19). Here it means in a foreign or barbarous tongue; and the sense is, that the lessons which God wished to teach would be conveyed to them through the language of foreigners - the Chaldeans. They should be removed to a distant land, and there, in hearing a strange speech, in living long among foreigners, they should learn the lesson which they refused to do when addressed by the prophets in their own land.

Chaldeans to teach Jews? Not good. Scorn.
Galileans to teach Jews? Especially in their own language? Wow! "No Prophet comes out of Galilee" Jhn 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Jhn 7:9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode [still] in Galilee.

Jhn 7:41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

Jhn 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

This is the reason the great men of Jewry of all nations were addressed by Galileans. Even as a scorn unto them.

If as someone had said before on this thread, if tongues had of been written language, instead of tongues there would not be such an uproar over the gift of languages. One for self indulgence, the other for the Gift of God by the Holy Spirit Teaching us This Christ that is in us, and we will hear Him. Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

In Christ: Phillip

Isaiah:
With stammering lips - The word which is used here is derived from a verb ( לעג laag ), which means to speak unintelligibly: especially to speak in a foreign language, or to stammer; and then to mock, deride, laugh at, scorn (compare Isa 33:19; Pr 1:26; 17:5; Ps 2:4; 59:9; Job 22:19). Here it means in a foreign or barbarous tongue; and the sense is, that the lessons which God wished to teach would be conveyed to them through the language of foreigners - the Chaldeans. They should be removed to a distant land, and there, in hearing a strange speech, in living long among foreigners, they should learn the lesson which they refused to do when addressed by the prophets in their own land.

“In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.”
(1Cor 14:21-22 KJVS)

“And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,”
(Acts 10:45-46 KJVS)

Am I right in thinking that you interpret all the Corinthian references as pertaining to Paul's linguistic ability?

To refer to 'Language A' as if all the disciples would be speaking in the same 'tongue' (that is, the spiritual gift of tongues) and as if you really mean to imply this is what you think the scripture means - that 120 people were speaking exactly the same spiritual language - frankly, if I may say so respectfully, I don't believe of you.

Now, I have a question for you.... When God speaks to you, do you always hear Him in English? Or, does He sometimes communicate to you without what we would normally call 'words'?

Hi Ron,

Quote: You wrote:

I have no doubt that the prophecy had an earlier fulfillment in the experience of Babylon but Paul is not referring to the Babylonian captivity. He is referring to the way in which God had used tongues as a sign to 'unbelieving Jews'. This also explains the phenomena in

1Co 14:21
In the law it is written. See Isa 28:11-12, for the quotation. The Jews were there told that for their sins they would be carried into the Assyrian captivity, where they would hear strange languages. This was a judgment. Wherefore, do not force the church to listen to listen to strange tongues which serve to remind of the judgment of Israel.

When you get to :23 It explains, the Church should be speaking in understanding to those that are without, that they might be edified and brought into the fold and not say these people are mad speaking in languages not understood.

1Co 14:23
11If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are sunlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
11. Another argument: the gift of tongues without prophecy is not only unprofitable to the faithful, but also hurts very much, both the faithful as well as the unfaithful, who should be won in the public assemblies. For by this means it comes to pass that the faithful seem to others to be mad, much less can the unfaithful be instructed by it.

s. See Ac 4:13.

Why must it be so hard to allow people speaking in tongues to understand that they are speaking gibberish and no one understands, why speak these things. Every time I hear a person speak in an unknown tongue, be it a different language such as Russian, or what some say is Angle talk, The Spirit checks me and tells me watch the people speaking, what do you see. So far all I see is a pride in what they are doing. I have pride in my salvation, but it is pride in Christ Jesus for what He has done, not that I speak gibberish and then say what was meant to be said in the first place with understanding, not the prideful gift of spiritual gift that has been given that other might see my spiritual maturity, and how God has blessed me with the gift of tongues.

Ac 10:46
They heard (êkouon). Imperfect active, were hearing, kept on hearing. Speak (lalountôn). Present active participle, speaking, for they kept it up. With tongues (glôssais). Instrumental case as in Ac 2:4,11 which see. The fuller statement there makes it clear that here it was new and strange tongues (language)that Gentiles never spoke, also as in Ac 19:6; 1Co 14:4-19. This sudden manifestation of the Holy Spirit's power on uncircumcised Gentiles was probably necessary to convince Peter and the six brethren of the circumcision that God had opened the door wide to Gentiles. For Peter then said, "Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? It was proof that a Gentile Pentecost had come and Peter used it effectively in his defence in Jerusalem (Ac 11:15).

These are not special heavenly languages, that is tongues, that are a spoken prideful exercise of man to show how a spiritual give brings one into Godliness, in other word watch me and do as I do and God will give you the same gift. The Holy Spirit disperses spiritual gifts as He wills, not as man wills, that goes for speaking to other in their own language that they might understand the Gospel of Paul, which is Christ in them the Hope of Glory. The Holy Spirit would never us a gift to promote the gift receiver to build up anyone but the Gifted One Himself, Jesus Christ. He never spoke without understand to who He was speaking to.

In Christ: Phillip

Every time I hear a person speak in an unknown tongue, be it a different language such as Russian, or what some say is Angle talk, The Spirit checks me and tells me watch the people speaking, what do you see. So far all I see is a pride in what they are doing.

This is not my judgment Ron, it is the word of God. If we look at scripture with a mind to the Holy Spirit teaching us truth about Christ, which Christ said He would send to us for this very purpose, we see that tongues have been since the 1800's and 1900's the most divisive doctrine in the Body of Christ.

It also detracts from The Truth of Christ In us, who has done the change in our nature by His Nature being born again in us. Jesus spoke always, every place He went with understanding and truth. The Holy Spirit will be the same Teacher of this truth and understanding. He even teach us things we don't understand. With the truth of scripture Paul said as all know in this particular subject, "I would rather speak 5 works with understanding that 10,000 in an unknown tongue, unknown tongue is the very center of this discussion. Unless we can translate the language being spoken, it is said, "keep silent in the churches".

I am sorry you think this is a judgment on my part. If it is my judgment then I am in very thin Ice and in and area that God will change very aggressively and I will repent. The Holy Spirit keeps revealing truth and building upon the truth that Tongues are different languages of the Earth that God dispersed at the tower of Babble and bringing all of us into one mind until we all come to the truth and using the gift of tongues (Language interpretation and speaking different languages to reveal the Gospel of Christ in you to the world) of bringing us together in Christ, the gift of tongues, that is interpretation of languages and give the truth of Jesus Christ to all that will hear, no matter their nationality or language. The gift is for the unsaved, not the saved to be used for self.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Phl 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

In the Unity of the Faith, Christ in us: Phillip

hmmm...Well I have just read through the thread form beginning to end and I must say, I feel like it is on a carosel...round and round and round. Interresting points are being presented though.

Well I hesitate to say anything at all because I sense doing so is like standing between two companies of soldiers shooting at each other.

Oh well,
Well, this is comming from a person who prays in tongues daily. Though I cannot help but to imagine that if any of you were in the same room as me when I am praying in tungues every one of you would think me insane.

When I pray in tongues it builds up my spirit. How can I explain it? Well first of all, if you have never prayed in tongues you will not be able to fully grasp this, but I feel my inner man strengthen. Have you ever been in a church service and the message being preached is so good that your spirit gets excited and encouraged and you walk out of church energized and refreshed. That is how I feel whenever I pray in tongues. I may be sitting at my computer like I am now and just say a few words in tongues and my spirt just jumps in excitement and I have a sensation similar to that of water being poured over dry skin. Not that my spirit is dry, but that tongues brings a refreshing. When I pray in tongues, it is like my spirit is in a gym and is working out. You know how your body feels when you just come out of the gym, bulging? Without the soreness though.

I have prayed for many things in my life using my tongues prayer language and seen the miraculous happen.

I also find that praying in tongues stirrs up the prophetic within me. Being on the mission field I get the opportunity to pray for people after I hold a church service. I like to minister out of the prophetic when praying for people, because it actualy gives understanding to the person being prayed for rather than rambling off in tongues and saying nothing in english. Not that it is bad, but their minds need something to either encorage it or correct it. Sometimes I will lay hands on someone and have absolutely no word to give them or nothing about their life to pray for. So I will just pray in tongues and it stirrs up the Spirit, and God will show me something to either tell them or pray for. The prophetic is not just foretelling but also forth-telling and bringing correction.

I will admitt, I do not understand what I am praying in tongues nor does it sound like an earthly language, though God often reveals to my spirit what it is that I am praying for.

There are several diversities of tongues. Not every time you speek in tongues there is going to be an interpretation or understanding of it, that is why Paul was correcting the Corinthians, because they went so far as to preach in tongues. Though he does go to say that speaking in tongues is not wrong, for he claimed to speak in tongues more than them all.

Well, I've stuck my head in the path of somone's argument.

Be blessed and encouraged.

WorldView's

There are several diversities of tongues. Not every time you speek in tongues there is going to be an interpretation or understanding of it, that is why Paul was correcting the Corinthians, because they went so far as to preach in tongues.

?? That is basically what I said, but I was a little more specific about it. Imagine you attend a church where the pastor just gets up on stage to preach and for an hour long speaks only in tongues and with no interpretation and then at the end says, "Got it? Amen yall be blessed now." That is an example of the kind of stuff that was going. Is that an exact example? No, because I wasn't there, but the idea is that they went around speaking in tongues to each other as if people somehow understood it.

I hope that clarifies what I meant.

I'm willing to believe they were actually speaking the earthly languages of those that were 'hear'ing in their own language, but my original point was simply that perhaps God gave the interpretation of 'other' tongues, to those who heard, in the same way as there is an intellectual disconnect between the tongues given in church meetings, and the interpretation by someone which a gift of interpretation.

“...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.”
(Acts 2:11 KJVS)

?? That is basically what I said, but I was a little more specific about it. Imagine you attend a church where the pastor just gets up on stage to preach and for an hour long speaks only in tongues and with no interpretation and then at the end says, "Got it? Amen yall be blessed now." That is an example of the kind of stuff that was going. Is that an exact example? No, because I wasn't there, but the idea is that they went around speaking in tongues to each other as if people somehow understood it.

The Corinthian assembly seems to have become an arena for people to display their 'gifts' with the principle purpose of 'self expression' rather than a building up of the body of Christ. They were indifferent to each other as they 'ministered' their gift. This is contrary to all the 'body' means and their failure to 'discern the body' had resulted in sickness and even death among them.

I don't think the sense is that 'they went around speaking in tongues to each other'. The sense is that they gave repeated 'tongue utterances' without waiting for the edification factor that only comes through the interpretation.

One of the great things about tongues, generally speaking, is that when someone has given such a tongue utterance he has to be quiet until God gives someone else the interpretation.

Yeah, unless you're Smith Wigglesworth. The tongue followed by the interpretation all in one package.

What language did Wiggles worth speak. If you study the truth of the Word and give it to others, why use a tongue no one understands except the speaker and save time an give the truth in the first place. I see only one reason.

In Christ: Phillip

There is only one gifted One and He is the only one able to offer them to men. Hbr 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: This is man even the gift giver of man giving gifts man to man.

This is the Heavenly Gift Giver. Hebrews 5:4-5 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Christ is all the gifts Himself and the Holy Spirit is the user of these gifts in men dispersed as He pleases. I don't see any gift used by man as of his own working. The Gift of Christ in us is the most important Gift. The Body building gifts are Used By The Holy Spirit to build the Body of Christ, His Church, which the gates of hell will not prevail against it, by the revelation of God that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. This is the revelation upon which Christ will build His Church. Matthew 16:17-18 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not need to speak in an unknown tongue or a heavenly language, He language. He needed no interpreter. He always spoke in truth with understanding to who ever he was speaking to. Paul was the same, Because he spoke more languages that us all. Paul needed no interpreter either. If the Holy Spirit is going to use the gift of Languages in a person, what the person says will be interpreted by the Holy Spirit in the person spoken to that Christ will be glorified, that is the precious work of the Holy Spirit to teach us Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the only One that can be trusted with the Gifts of Christ, to use and operate as He see's and to His good pleasure. No gift is a permanent operation in any person.

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 12:28-30 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The ones set in the church are first, second and after that. After that are the gifts of the Spirit of Christ a dispersed and operated by the Holy Spirit as He pleases.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The Gifts and Manifestation of the Spirit are give to every man, but is up to the Holy Spirit to use them. Not man to receive them and the Gift be His. I don't have the gift of tongues but the Holy Spirit has complete use of these Gifts given to men by Christ. If I am to speak to someone in a language I don't know to save them, by the Holy Spirit I will speak. By the Holy Spirit He prays for us in language we don't understand, by groaning to deep for us to understand, but the Prayer is Given, not by us, but for us. When you pray, pray with understanding.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

I the spirit of a man pray, he should pray with understanding. Not separate, but also.

We don't sing in unknown tongues, we sing with our spirit and understanding also. Not separate.

In Christ: Phillip

bro Phillip

What language did Wiggles worth speak. If you study the truth of the Word and give it to others, why use a tongue no one understands except the speaker and save time an give the truth in the first place. I see only one reason.

if our Lord decides it best for one to study the word and speak in another tongue (and provide the interpretation) who are we to question it. our Lord does some things which are really weird to us. it seems logical for one to study the word as in this case of smith wigglesworth and deliver it in english but evidently God can choose to do it any way He sees fit. for example God told Jeremiah to speak to His children about their need to repent and the coming judgement, He also proceded to tell Jeremiah that they wouldn't listen to Him, to which Jeremiah asked "so what's the point?" the issue is about obedience to whatever HE says not what is convenient or seems logical to us. this is the wisdom of God which is foolishness to us.

such gifts like tongues benefit the unbeliever and the new believer because they are a manifestation of of God's power. there is also the benefit of self edification when one prays in tongues as paul said to the corinthians but if one does speak in tongues at an assembly it should be when there can be an interpreter so everyone is edified. i've found that (like bro worldview) praying in tongues does indeed lift up my spirit, i don't always get an interpretation but it seems to me that the benefit of tongues and praying in them for the believer, is for the inner man primarily. sometimes i do receive visions concerning what i'm saying in tongues which works well as a means of interpreting coz the vision somehow is easier for me to grasp, i guess that's why our Lord shows me visions frequently.in our fellowship with my wife, mother-in-law and my brother-in-law James (jimm on this site), James seems to have that gift of interpretation operating constantly because our Lord instructed us to pray out loud in tongues and He's interpret through James. previously we'd pray quietly in tongues if we felt unctioned.

there is so much more to consider, our God will not be contained in neat little boxes but rather because He is God tends to explode out of our boxes once we confine Him, or at least that's what i've found.

I see only one reason

would that be to show off? i've also found that when i see and have issue with a certain thing someone does (such as someone spending an obscene amount of money on say a car) it's because it's a thing i know that i'd be guilty of if i were in the same position. does God's gift of tongues operate in you?

bro Phillip

We don't sing in unknown tongues, we sing with our spirit and understanding also. Not separate.

is this the Church in general or in your fellowship? i've found at times i've sung (ok, ok my voice is more like a noise, a not so outwardly joyful one to the Lord) in tongues praising our Lord and so has my brother-in-law James. what do we make of this?

Hi Steve,

This is what I have been saying all along. There are legitimate Languages spoken from Gods Children that the Holy Spirit is distributing a message to others through a gift that is absolutely specific for the enlightenment of the hearer to who Jesus Christ and what the Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory is.

This is in what you have written the very reason the gift of Languages are given.

Quote:One evening two young Mormon Missionaries came to her front door. Her Husband was there with her. She invited them into her home, and went through the scriptures with them. This went on for hours. Finally the Holy Spirit convicted her to speak in tongues. While she was speaking in tongues one of the two boys broke down in tears. He understood every word she spoke, while the other boy, as well as her husband, only heard the tongues. As the boys were leaving, the one who understood said to her that he didn't know what to do. His parents were Mormon. His fiance was Mormon, and all of his friends were Mormon. But now he knew that Jesus Christ was Lord!

He left her home in tears, saying as he left, that he had never heard such beautiful things, ever, than what he had heard from her that night. One boy heard what the Spirit had to say, while the other did not!

This is specific direction by the Holy Spirit and I believe in this instance it was a wonderful clarification of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The young Mormon heard the Holy Spirit through this man's wife, he was the interpreter direct from the Holy Spirit through the wife into the Heart of this young Mormon and he new that Jesus was Lord. This is just like Acts 2, they heard the Gospel in their own language.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Linn,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Tongues are a necessary Gift? There is nothing new under the sun. There is nothing new in the Word of God, and is not to be added to. Within the Word are truths that we don't even know, but nothing new will be added to the completed Word, or else the plagues and curses will be added to the one adding.

Prophesy is already written in the bible. Prophesying is the revealing Of the Truth that is given in Gods dispensations of Time, when the fulfillment is attained. If you mean by a fresh word to the Church, a revealed truth that was already there, I agree. If you are saying God is giving prophesy for a person of something that adds or takes away from the Word of God, I disagree. Jesus did reveal to Paul how much he would suffer for Christ and His name sake. This is only done by direct revelation: Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. We are sent to: Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. That we might know what was revealed to Paul. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

Dorcas'

the miracle (and gift) was of being able to speak a language which could be understood by some - naturally.

Usually, though, the interpretation of a tongue given clearly to the whole assembly, when interpreted, is prophetic - that is, a word for the church (the Body) that day.... a fresh word from God.

What you make of the term 'gift of utterance'(Acts 2:4, 19:6)) as a separate 'gift' from 'gift of tongues' (1 Cor 12:28), or, is there no scriptural basis for believing there's any difference?

It is often presumed that those who spoke in tongues were preaching the gospel. The text does not indicate this. The account says "...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.”
(Acts 2:11 KJVS) The word used for speak is simply 'laleO' which not the normal word used for preaching. laleO simply means 'to speak'. It may be that they heard the 120 simply 'praising God' in foreign languages. This would make tongues 'God-ward' again and so the pattern of 1 Corinthians would be maintained. Acts 10:46 also uses the simple word 'laleO'. In the latter, Cornelius, experience there would have been no point to 'preaching the gospel in foreign languages; they had all just heard the gospel in Greek!

The word "utterance" used in Acts 2:4 is only used there and in...Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them [u]utterance[/u].
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and [u]said[/u] unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Acts 26:25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but [u]speak forth[/u] the words of truth and soberness. it seems simply to imply 'speaking out'

Acts 2:8-11 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, (of foreign origin; a Parthian, i.e. inhabitant of Parthia:--Parthian.) and Medes,(inhabitant of Media:--Mede.) and Elamites,(of Hebrew origin (5867); an Elamite or Persian:--Elamite.) and the dwellers in Mesopotamia,(as lying between the Euphrates and the Tigris; compare 0763), a region of Asia:--Mesopotamia.) and in Judaea,( a region of Palestine:--Judaea.) and Cappadocia, in Pontus,(a sea; Pontus, a region of Asia Minor:--Pontus. and Asia,( (usually) only its western shore:--Asia. Phrygia,( and Pamphylia, in Egypt,(Ægyptus, the land of the Nile:--Egypt.) and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene,(Cyrene, a region of Africa:--Cyrene) and strangers ((be) dwelling (which were) there, stranger.)of Rome, Jews and proselytes, (an arriver from a foreign region, i.e. (specially), an acceder (convert) to Judaism) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Began to speak with other tongues. In other languages than their native tongue. The languages which they spoke are specified in @Ac 2:9-11.

As the Spirit gave them utterance. As the Spirit gave them power to speak. This language implies plainly that they were now endued with a faculty of speaking languages which they had not before learned. Their native tongue was that of Galilee, a somewhat barbarous dialect of the common language used in Judea, the Syro-Chaldaic. It is possible that some of them might have been partially acquainted with the Greek and Latin, as both of them were spoken among the Jews to some extent; but there is not the slightest evidence that they were acquainted with the languages of the different nations afterwards specified. Various attempts have been made to account for this remarkable phenomenon, without supposing it to be a miracle. But the natural and obvious meaning of the passage is, that they were endowed by the miraculous power of the Holy Ghost with ability to speak foreign languages, and languages to them before unknown. It does not appear that each one had the power of speaking all the languages which are specified, (Ac 2:9-11,) but that this ability was among them, and that together they could speak these languages; probably some one, and some another.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: "divers kinds" 1085. genos
Search for G1085 in KJVSL
genoV genos ghen'-os

from 1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):--born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. "diversities of tongues"
Same word. 1085. genos
Search for G1085 in KJVSL
genoV genos ghen'-os

from 1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):--born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

From this it appears that the power was well known in the church, and was not confined to the apostles. This also may show that, in the case in the Acts, the power was conferred on other members of the church as well as the apostles.

(4.) It was very important that they should be endowed with this power in their great work. They were going forth to preach to all nations; and though the Greek and Roman tongues were extensively spoken, yet their use was not universal; nor is it known that the apostles were skilled in those languages. To preach to all nations, it was indispensable that they should be able to understand their language. And it was necessary that they should be endowed with ability to speak them without the slow process of being compelled to learn them.

(5.) One design was to establish the gospel by means of miracles. Yet no miracle could be more striking than the power of conveying their sentiments at once into all the languages of the earth. When it is remembered what a slow and toilsome process it is to learn a foreign tongue, this would be regarded by the heathen as one of the most striking miracles which were ever wrought in the establishment of the Christian faith, 1Co 14:22,24-25.

Hence Paul's statement I speak in languages more that you all. That is "tongues". That is why he said if you speak in languages with no one understanding, he would rather speak 5 words with understanding. Misuse of this gift is a travesty in the church, as praying in an unknown tongue and should not be even spoken in any of the churches as a gift from God.

1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1Cr 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1Cr 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Don't forbid this gift, because it is spreading the Gospel to the whole world, but as it is spread the need for this gift gets smaller and smaller.

In Christ: Phillip

It seems that Peter new what he was saying, because of what he and the other Apostles were saying, 3000 were saved. Then they were of one accord adding to the Church daily.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

The 3000 that were saved must have called upon the name of the Lord because of what Peter was preaching, as he said, "be this known unto you and hearken unto my words".

Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Joel 2:30-32 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

All these things Peter spoke to all that were there.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

If this is not preaching, I don't know what is.
Also including all that were with him to the effect that they were not drunk, but were witness to all being said. All that were there are those that were hearing them speak in their own language.

Acts 2:31-32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Then Peter confirming that which they were hearing in their own tongue, language, which they also "see and hear."

Acts 2:33-35 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

This is what the gift of tongues is to operate in, that is the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the whole world.

Speaking to all that were there, Peter made the altar call and 3000 were saved.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 2:39-40 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

How many were called by the Lord our God?

Acts 2:41-42 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

The three thousand were added to them. Who are them?

Can you imagine the marvel at all these different men being in one accord, with the Gift of the Holy Spirit being given to them and "steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship and the breaking of bread and prayers. If there was any praying in tongues this most certainly was when it was done. All understanding each other in praising God and teaching all the three thousand that were added to "Them". You talk about promise keepers. Wow! This should be our order of business in the Churches, all at once understanding each other no matter what nationality, or tongue and praising God by the Power of the Holy Spirit given to the Church by the Father through the asking by Jesus Christ Himself.

In Christ: Phillip

Acts 2:8-11 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, (of foreign origin; a Parthian, i.e. inhabitant of Parthia:--Parthian.) and Medes,(inhabitant of Media:--Mede.) and Elamites,(of Hebrew origin (5867); an Elamite or Persian:--Elamite.) and the dwellers in Mesopotamia,(as lying between the Euphrates and the Tigris; compare 0763), a region of Asia:--Mesopotamia.) and in Judaea,( a region of Palestine:--Judaea.) and Cappadocia, in Pontus,(a sea; Pontus, a region of Asia Minor:--Pontus. and Asia,( (usually) only its western shore:--Asia. Phrygia,( and Pamphylia, in Egypt,(Ægyptus, the land of the Nile:--Egypt.) and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene,(Cyrene, a region of Africa:--Cyrene) and strangers ((be) dwelling (which were) there, stranger.)of Rome, Jews and proselytes, (an arriver from a foreign region, i.e. (specially), an acceder (convert) to Judaism) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The Medes مادها were an Iranian people, The figures include Persians, Elemites and Medes followed by Arabs, Egyptians, Armenians, Ethiopians, Sagartians, Cappadocians, and many more, Mesapotamia: Fertile Crescent is on a narrow strip of land between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The Greeks later called this region Mesopotamia, which means “between the rivers.” This is generally Iraq, Phrygia: part of modern Turkey, Arabs and Africans, and strangers.

Their native tongue was that of Galilee, a somewhat barbarous dialect of the common language used in Judea, the Syro-Chaldaic. It is possible that some of them might have been partially acquainted with the Greek and Latin, as both of them were spoken among the Jews to some extent;

Christ plainly had a detailed conversation in Greek with Pilate who would certainly not have known Hebrew or Aramaic.

The Decapolis, on the East side of Galiee were 10 Greek cities. Greek was the lingua-franca of the whole Mediterranean. They did not need foreign languages to preach the gospel. This why the New Testament was written in koine (common) Greek; because most people of the Roman empire spoke it.

You ask, "where did I get these Ideas from?!?"

The History of the Origins of Christianity. Book II. The Apostles. Chapter VI. The Conversion of Hellenistic Jews and of Proselytes.

by
Ernest Renan

CHAPTER VI.
THE CONVERSION OF HELLENISTIC JEWS AND OF PROSELYTES.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/renan/apostles.ix.html

Excerpt:
"The primitive nucleus of the Church at Jerusalem had been composed wholly and exclusively of Hebrews; the Aramaic dialect, which was the language of Jesus, was alone known and employed there. But we see that from the second or third years after the death of Jesus, Greek was introduced into the little community, where it soon became dominant. In consequence of their daily relations with the new brethren, Peter, John, James, Jude, and in general the Galilean disciples, acquired the Greek with much more facility than if they had already known something of it. An incident, of which we are soon to speak, shows that this diversity of tongues caused at first some divisions in the community, and that the relations of the two factions were not of the most agreeable kind. After the destruction of Jerusalem, we shall see the “Hebrews,” retire to beyond Jordan, to the heights of Lake Tiberias, and form a separate Church, which had a separate destiny. But in the interval, between these two events, it does not appear that the diversity of 60languages was of any consequence in the Church. The Orientals have a great facility for learning languages; in the cities everybody invariably speaks two or three tongues. It is then probable that those of the Galilean apostles who played an active part, acquired the practise of speaking Greek; and came even to make use of it in preference to the Syro-Chaldaic, when the faithful, speaking Greek, became the much more numerous. The Palestinian dialect came, therefore, to be abandoned from the day in which people dreamed of a wide-spread propaganda. A provincial patois, which was rarely written, and which was not spoken beyond Syria, was as little adapted as could be to such an object. Greek, on the contrary, was necessarily imposed on Christianity. It was at the time the universal language, at least for the eastern basin of the Mediterranean. It was, in particular, the language of the Jews who were dispersed over the Roman empire. At that time, as in our day, the Jews adopted with great facility the tongues of the countries in which they resided. They did not pique themselves on purism; and this is the reason that the Greek of primitive Christianity is so bad. The Jews, even the most instructed, pronounced badly the classic tongue. Their sentences were always modelled upon the Syriac; they never got rid of the unwieldiness of the gross dialects which the Macedonian conquest had imported."

In Christ: Phillip

In consequence of their daily relations with the new brethren, Peter, John, James, Jude, and in general the Galilean disciples, acquired the Greek with much more facility than if they had already known something of it.

Again: By Albert Barnes, Notes on the Bible.

Began to speak with other tongues. In other languages than their native tongue. The languages which they spoke are specified in @Ac 2:9-11.

As the Spirit gave them utterance. As the Spirit gave them power to speak. This language implies plainly that they were now endued with a faculty of speaking languages which they had not before learned. Their native tongue was that of Galilee, a somewhat barbarous dialect of the common language used in Judea, the Syro-Chaldaic. It is possible that some of them might have been partially acquainted with the Greek and Latin, as both of them were spoken among the Jews to some extent; but there is not the slightest evidence that they were acquainted with the languages of the different nations afterwards specified. Various attempts have been made to account for this remarkable phenomenon, without supposing it to be a miracle. But the natural and obvious meaning of the passage is, that they were endowed by the miraculous power of the Holy Ghost with ability to speak foreign languages, and languages to them before unknown. It does not appear that each one had the power of speaking all the languages which are specified, (Ac 2:9-11,) but that this ability was among them, and that together they could speak these languages; probably some one, and some another. The following remarks may perhaps throw some light on this remarkable occurrence:

I guess selective is tolerant to ones own mind set.

In Christ: Phillip

Barnes is making the same presumption that the content of what was heard on the Day of Pentecost through 'tongues' was the preaching of the gospel. This is unsupported by the text, where verbs for 'preaching' and 'proclaiming' are absent and the simple word for 'speaking' is used.

And your assumption holds no more truth than his or mine. I guess it does take black and white to make gray. Only one can make black, white. I'll just have to keep trusting Him. If I am to speak in and unknown Language to save a foreigner, I am sure it will happen, but to speak in an unknown tongue, that no one understands, leave me out.
I cannot understand a word of what B. H. says except when he is lying to the crowd or giving 1000 $ tips to the waiter for room service in his 4000 $ a night suite.

In Christ: Phillip

I cannot understand a word of what B. H. says except when he is lying to the crowd or giving 1000 $ tips to the waiter for room service in his 4000 $ a night suite.

If I am to speak in and unknown Language to save a foreigner, I am sure it will happen

""I hope you don't associate all contemporary 'tongues speakers' with his aberrations.""

I don't associate with believers that speak in either unknown or praying in tongues. Not because of any reason other than I don't have fellowship with any person that speak in tongues at this time in my life. I attended a tongue speaking church for about a year and the only tongues I observed were self seeking embellishment of, look at me I am speaking in tongues. No one ever interpreted the gibberish that I heard and I did not understand anything they were saying. I have only heard one person speak as you say in tongues that I am close to. He was my neighbor, he was from an African American Pentecostal Church, he was one of my closest prayer partners. We shared Christ in you the Hope of Glory and prayed for each other's family and others we were led to pray for. He would speak in tongues I did not understand or recognize and then he would pray in our language. The prayers were always flowery with gracious lifting up of God in great wonderful phrases that really sounded uplifting toward God. I ask him if he knew what he was praying when he spoke what he called a heavenly language, he said he did not know. He always listened to Morris Cerelo's radio and TV programs, whom I never understood either. We did this for 3 years and I had to move. We are still friends but don't have much prayer together anymore. I never understood what he was saying before the common language was spoken. I even prayed, Father if this is the gift of tongues you are speaking of in The Word, allow me to understand what you are saying through him, it never happened. I have ask God if I needed to pray in tongues to have a deeper understanding of what the Holy Spirit was teaching me, allow me to receive the gift. I even waited upon God for 3 hours in tears and asking, I think I forced some sound from within me and did not feel anything except anguish.

The Holy Spirit has always dealt with me in teaching from the Word and memory of scripture. It always aligns with the whole of scripture when I study the thoughts that come into my mind. I also believe that prayer is conversing with God in thought and speech, in thought I believe that I have the Mind of Christ, that being so my prayer is as Paul says, "Pray without ceasing", that is 24-7 my mind is in communion with the Mind of Christ and all that I do, I do seeking and listening to Him, even when my mind is not consciously seeking and listening He is still there, and our fellowship is never apart from each other. Colossians 3:22-24 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

All the study I have done on tongues, which is extensive, has always come back to Languages of the earth that one speaks that is not naturally learned. I have seen this once. It was one speaking in a language he did not know, the person he was speaking to understood in his own tongue naturally learned from his nationality which was East Indian, a Sikh. I did not understand what was being said. The East Indian was saved.

I must be one of those that is the, "do all speak in tongues?", that Paul speaks about in 1
Cor 12. If speaking in tongues (languages of earth that are not naturally learned( is the least gift and to prophesy is the greatest gift, which is bringing forth the truth of The Word of God, why would anyone want to speak in a tongue that does not build up the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 14:8-10 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

Maybe you can understand where I am coming from on this subject. Yet, I will not put God in a box, but I will test what I hear, and I have not been able to get a passing grade when it comes to unknown tongues or praying in an unknown tongue.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou's

I attended a tongue speaking church for about a year and the only tongues I observed were self seeking embellishment of, look at me I am speaking in tongues. No one ever interpreted the gibberish that I heard and I did not understand anything they were saying.

I even waited upon God for 3 hours in tears and asking, I think I forced some sound from within me and did not feel anything except anguish.

Maybe you can understand where I am coming from on this subject. Yet, I will not put God in a box, but I will test what I hear, and I have not been able to get a passing grade when it comes to unknown tongues or praying in an unknown tongue.

I was not disappointed, the tears were because of the closeness of God in my heart, assuring me that He loved me no matter what Gift the Holy Spirit might use at anytime just as He pleases. All the gifts are from God, they are not assigned to men for their upbuilding, but for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ. Building Christs' Church and not mans. The Holy Spirit can use any gift in any person at anytime to bring forth Christ, that is the only reason we have for gifts. Not to build up man, but to build up His Church, and even the gates of hell will not prevail against that end.

1 Corinthians 12:1-6 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Not man or organized religion but God by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to man. The biggest Gift is Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip