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It IS World War Three

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sermonindex

World War One was fought over two drooping empires.

World War Two was fought against fascism, the nazi's and their proxies.

World War Three is being fought against radical islamic theocrats who have already declared jihad, holy war against the U.S. and our aliies.

The heartbeat, the theocratical leadership of the jihadis, and their purse all originate in Iran.

But through out the Arab Aslamic world, many countries stand ready to fight alongside The Islamic Republic of Iran.

This is a just war because our national survival is imperiled, and we must war declare now, and not wait for a modern day Pearl Harbor such as Yankee Stadium and 40,000 fans being incinerated by a suitcase nuke.

But, are we ready for the sacrifices?

Are we ready to re-institute the draft?

Radical Islamic jihadists are just as sick and demonic as the hitlerite legions of the 1930' and 40's.

H
hmmhmm


bartle wrote:
, and we must war declare now, and not wait for a modern day Pearl Harbor such as Yankee Stadium and 40,000 fans being incinerated by a suitcase nuke.


ARE YOU AS A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST ? ARE YOU FOR A DECLARATION OF WAR?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_Hu1hcsa4


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JoeA

While WW3 may be on the horizon, Jesus said "See that ye be not troubled, for all these things must come to pass."

There is a far greater war going on right now, a war against forces more powerful than Iran, more powerful than the whole Islamic world. We are in a war against powers, and principalities, and the rulers of darkness. Nowhere in the Bible is a Christian told to take up arms, but we are instructed to be sober, vigilant, and resist the devil.

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God."

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IRONMAN

bro Joe

There is a far greater war going on right now, a war against forces more powerful than Iran, more powerful than the whole Islamic world. We are in a war against powers, and principalities, and the rulers of darkness. Nowhere in the Bible is a Christian told to take up arms, but we are instructed to be sober, vigilant, and resist the devil.

This is where it's at! What is happening in the natural is a reflection of what is going on in the spirit realm. if we don't see this, then there is no hope because unless there is we tackle the issues at the root in the spirit realm, then the issue will keep cropping up again and again. let us not forget this aspect of it, lest we catch a sever whooping from the principalities and powers coz we fail to use the powerful weapons of God but use our own instead.

Lord help us. AMEN.

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JoeA

The Church is at war with the devil, not over things like this, (i know that the enemy is behind many evil empires in the world) but for men's souls. If we lose sight of THIS, there is no hope. Problems like this will keep cropping up until Christ returns to usher in eternal righteousness and peace. If we were more concerned about seeing people saved than we are about going to war with terrorists, the Church in America might actually please God. THIS is why revival is so desperately needed. We're more concerned about politics than we are Kingdom things. Lord deliever us from such idolatry.

In love, joe

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sermonindex

I' a follower of Jesus, I'm s Jew, and I'm a an American.

There is a point where every follower of Christ must decide that if the earthly country they live in, is imperiled, where the national survival of that country is at stake, and at this point I know that the survival of Israel is in peril, and since 9/11/2001, radical islam has let us know in the U.S. they intent on destroying us.

Does this make the Heart of Christ weep?

yes. Jesus wept.

But since 9/11/2001 inn America we have been involved in a the "war on terror", enough with the hypocrisy and vagueness, it's time to name the enemy, and the enemy is radical islamists who have ALREADY declared war on us and our allies, and the center of radical islamic jihadists is in Iran, more specifically the holy city of Qom, where the mullahs who hold power reside.

Don't worry, I believe in World War Two Sweden was neutral, I'm sure they can retain that status in 2006.

I might suggest a web excursion to www.memritv.org where you can read for yourself what our enemy has in store for us.

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sermonindex

It has always been the policy of this country that those who object to taking up arms may opt out and conscientously object.

One of my Biblical heroes has always been King David, and more so now.

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sermonindex

ps to JoeA

I'm not troubled.....grieved, heavy in heart, because my fellow Jews in Israel are in grave peril, but not troubled because I know that Yahweh is with the IDF.

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JoeA

Philippians 3:17 "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

"(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

"Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame [b]who mind earthly things[/b],

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ."

Brothers, the point i'm trying to make is that there are more important things to worry about than national security. As Christians we are to put on the whole armor of God, not take up arms for our country.

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roadsign

While we cannot doubt that the devil is our enemy, we must also realize that we ourselves can be God’s enemies. Scripture teaches that when nations (people groups) assemble and plot, they are actually fighting against God’s Anointed One.

Why do the nations assemble with commotion [uproar and confusion of voices], and why do the people imagine (meditate upon and devise) an empty scheme? The kings of the earth take their places; the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and His Anointed One (the Messiah, the Christ). They say, Let us break Their bands [of restraint] asunder and cast Their cords [of control] from us. Ps. 2: 1,2 Amplified


This can apply to a family at the dinner table as well as a nation on the battle field. When we try to save/defend ourselves - our rightness, our turf, our pride, our ego – whether by defensive words or defensive weapons we are declaring that Christ’s salvation is not enough. We are at war with our Lord.


Another thought: As long as we keep our magnifying glasses on our enemies and report our discoveries, we are no different than those spies who reported about the huge giants in the Promised Land – and caused the entire nation to refuse to enter into God’s promise. We must be reporters who see through the eyes of faith and not unbelief. Or else we will instil fear in man rather than trust in God. We will.keep people from entering into God’s REST. If God is for us, then we need not fear. But if God is not for us, then all our scheming will be of no avail.

We Canadians, like Americans, are very privileged to have a nation that rules from sea to sea. It has been a God-given honor. However, if our nationalism has become our source of trust and security, then it has become our idol. That’s what happened with Israel. If God did not spare Israel, why should we expect him to spare our nations?

Nations rise and fall; they always have; and they always will. But the kingdom of God always moves forward.

If the advancement of the kingdom of God requires the loss of our national identities, are we willing to accept it. After all, we are merely aliens and foreigners on this earthly soil. Our citizenship is in heaven – our only permanent dwelling. And we have ONLY been given weapons to fight for THAT kingdom (see Eph. 6) In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither Canadian, American nor Arab, neither …… get the picture?. Right now many Arabs are coming to Christ. We are called to protect God’s own. Color, race, gender, heritage, status are irrelevant. What happens if we fail in that calling?

If the prerequisite for revival is that we lay down our weapons and our nations, are we willing to pay that price? Do we pray, “Lord, your kingdom come…. (whatever the cost)… Thy will be done” And can we trust God to be our strong fortress?

I realize that these are hard words, and seem even outrageous…. But as I read the Scriptures, more and more this is what I find. Could I be wrong?
Diane

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JoeA

I realize that these are hard words, and seem even outrageous…. But as I read the Scriptures, more and more this is what I find. Could I be wrong?

God bless you sister. Amen. Amen. You're not wrong.

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PaulWest

Amen, Diane. Ravenhill said that he took the Union Jack to the cross years ago - and left it there. I've done the same with Old Glory. I'm thankful to God for my earthly country, but it's going to burn. I pray for Bush...but my allegiance is to Heaven and King Jesus Christ exclusively.

Preach the gospel, brother Bartle, and let the heathen fight their wars.

Preach the gospel, brother!

C
Compton

These religous 'fault-line' wars remind me of a victorian quote by the Roman Catholic Joseph Hilaire Belloc:

"the faith is Europe and Europe is the faith"

Later in the 20th century, many American Christians have said, "America is the faith." And today many Christians, Jews, and Muslims would say that "Jerusalem is the faith."

So whose Kingdom is the faith? God's people living under every flag would like to know.

MC

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IRONMAN

sis Diane
Those are some hard things to consider. Do we love God enough and His Kingdom enough to forsake our respective countries of origin/residence now if He were to ask.

Dare we disobey God for any cause?

Lord help us!AMEN.

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IRONMAN

bro Mike

So whose Kingdom is the faith? God's people living under every flag would like to know.

ouch! this is the proverbial million-dollar question. Christ answered it when He said, "my kingdom is not of this world"

heaven is where our allegiance should lie, if it conflicts with the laws of the lands we live in somehow, i pray we do right by God. AMEN.

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hmmhmm

i can see what you meen, but we as christians should not worrie, god has everything in his hand, and i belive as i understand scripture you as a "american" should expect great judgements on your nation , if we were to look on what your country is guilty of in gods eyes, now im expecting the same judgement on my own country, we are one of the most sinful countrys in the world. But i do not Wawe the swedisch flag, i belong to a different kingdom, america sweden.... it will ALL BURN ANYWAY, until that day....witch doesent seem very far away, lets bring as many people we can whit us, i just belive as we as followers of christ should never be for war , no matter how evil or how sinful or godless the other country is, but their sining doesent make our sin right.

ive watched many times memri tv...its very disturbing to watch and se....but i do trust that the lord is going to bring justice.
let us pray for thease matters...for israels saftey and its neighbours...pray for workers to the harvest.

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sermonindex

As Christians we are to put on the whole armor of God

Bro JoeA, you are a Christian, I am a Jew who is a follower of Jesus, you could call me a Christian, I could call you "child of Abraham, we both are "children of Abraham"......?

I heard many Gentile "children of Abraham" speak of their great love for the Jewish people, and that have a burden for the Jews, and a love for Israel.

The Land of Israel is where the Lord Jesus lived and walked His earthly ministry, now the Land of Israel is at war, imperiled, surrounded and outnumbered, for almost 60 years they have lived in very rough neighborhood, and surivived, do you really think this is because the power of their own strength?

You infered that my mind is on "earthly things", and that I am worrying about "national security", This battle is the an earthly reflection of the battle being waged in the heavenlies, between good and evil. If a man straps explosives around his waist walks into a crowd of civilians, detonates it, while shrieking "Allahuakbar!" (God is great!) what kind of god is this?

It's not a god, it abbadon, in Hebrew that translates out to the Destroyer, the god of the abyss, this is the god, that radical islamic jihadists worship.

Israel has sought to exist in the Land that God gave to us/them as an everlasting covenant. Did God use the romans to remove us from the Land?

yes.

Did God use the hitlerites to scourge us by burning 6 million in the ovens of Europe?

yes.

Did God use the UN do to give the Jews a homeland in 1948, and then further protect them by running ahead of them and giving them the strength to vanguish their many enemies who vastly outnumber them?

yes.


These are not earthly things, what you see happening, unfolding about you is prophecy as written in the Holy Scriptures.

The Jews are God's chosen people and thru the atoning Blood of Messiah he has torn the curtain of the Temple, and grafted you a Gentile into the Vine, as a child of Abraham, the father of the faith.

I appreciate your pacifism, and I believe that any man who cannot take up arms should have this right.

I agree, the enemy is the devil, but he has many names, and one of them is abbadon, the destroyer, and this is who we face in the guise of radical islamic jihadists.

here's q question for you, when God makes a an everlasting with His people, does God go back on His Word?

to say yes to this, you must as well throw out what is known as the Old Testament.

I will give to you what the Spirit has revealed to me, that in the coming days, America will suffer a grievous hideous attack on its shores, that will far eclipse the attack of 9/11.

Do we fear this?

Many, who do not have the reassurance of Messiah, fear such death and destruction, but our promise lays in the heavenly Jerusalem, where thousands of saints sing in praise of God.

There is good and evil, and I fix my thoughts on Jesus because he will come in the sky, but He also told us to be aware of the times.

and we are in such times, whether you like it or not.

Pray for peace and prepare for battle, its coming.

bartle

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sermonindex

Preach the gospel, brother Bartle, and let the heathen fight their wars.

Something in that statement who made bothers me.

As I've said over and over again, I am a Jew who follows Jesus, and my brothers and sisters in Israel who have been atacked repeatedly over the past sixty years now face the greatest peril they have ever faced from the Islamic Republic of Iran who are the theocratical and financial backers of what is known as Hezbo-allah, the party of god.

The nation of Israel is hardly "heathen", they are God's chosen people, and you who have been grafted into this Vine thru the atoning Blood of Messiah should get on your knees, and realize that you too are a "child of Abraham"....and that King Jesus is the Son of Yahweh, El Shaddai, Adonai, Elohim, all Hebrew words,

recognize the Grace you've shown and where it came from. My Jewish brothers ands sisters were given an EVERLASTING covenant from Yahweh, EVERLASTING means just that, and Jesus said that one day He will come back for His Chosen people.

He has your heart and your soul, and one day praise God He will gather all the tribes of Israel. Get on your knees, and I promise you, He will reveal that nation is Israel is not some collection of "heathen".

Too much Jewish blood, thru the centuries has been shed by 'christians' treating Jews as "heathen".

I resent that term being used by you in reference to my brothers and sisters in Israel who do not yet know Messiah.

One day He will gather them all up, this is what Jeremiah 30-33 is all about.

Why don't you read it, look in the mirror, and say what you just said to me, "Preach the Gospel brother."

forgive me if I seem harsh, but I'm wondering how deep the love of the church for the Jewish people really is.

S
sermonindex

what you are witnessing in my humble Spirit led opinion is way way beyond nation states, and national identities

It is prophecy, it ia an earthly mirror of a battle be waged in the heavenlies.

bartle

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roadsign

I've said over and over again, I am a Jew who follows Jesus

Did not the apostle Paul reverse the order?

Too much Jewish blood, thru the centuries has been shed by 'christians' treating Jews as "heathen"

Add to this: countless true followers of Christ have been martyred by the Church – I’d say by the nominal Christians. Indeed, the church has been the main source of much persecution for centuries – of many minority groups.

I add here – to encourage you, that my grandfather and his brother, including actually their entire family and many others were leaders in the underground movement in Holland – who tried to preserve many of the lives of your people – even at a risk to their own lives. They were true believers, and God honoured them. Many miracles have been recorded (however never made the history books). I say this to point out that God did indeed stir his followers towards humanitarian works on your behalf. God only knows, maybe you are here today because somewhere back in your history, Christians have protected your ancestors. By the way, I should add that my great uncle lost his life in the process. A book was written about his life – now being translated into English.

On another note:
At the time war broke out, there were over 40,000 fellow Canadians in Lebanon. Some died as a result of the bombings. It gets real tricky: Does your “call” to defend your brother justify the results: that my brother loses his life. Is my brother less important to God? You see, it gets very messy when we try to draw lines in the sand around people groups and then take self-defence in our own hands. Does God not give us a better way?

Art Katz, himself a Christian Jew has much to say about how he perceives the nation of Israel, and Israel’s future. You may wish to check this out. It’s rich.

[url=http://www.benisrael.org/]Ben Israel - The Burning Bush[/url]
He also has many audio sermons on SI.

May God’s peace rule in your heart. Shalom, brother.

Diane

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JoeA

Brother Bartle, i support the nation of Israel more so than my own nation. I see that what is happening in the Middle East is prophecy coming true. However, i don't read anywhere in the Bible where a child of God (Jew or Gentile) is told to take up arms under the New Covenant. We must remeber what our Lord said in His sermon on the mount.

Matthew 5:38 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

The prophecies that are unfolding before our eyes will be brought to pass by God. We can do nothing to stop them, or help them. Jesus said when we see such things happening "Take up arms!". No. He said "Look up, for your redemption draweth nigh."

God bless you dear brother. And God bless the Jewish people.

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PaulWest

Why don't you read it, look in the mirror, and say what you just said to me, "Preach the Gospel brother."

Brother Bartle, as usual, you are getting emotional and turning this thread into a personal attack. Your words are mean-spirited and unfair. All I said was to preach the gospel, repeating what Jesus said! Why have you turned it back upon me...to imply that I'm a hypocrite? You don't even know me!

I said to let the heathen fight their own wars. I meant this in a general sense. I love the Jews, but if a Jew dies without Jesus he/she goes to hell just like anyone else. Admittedly, 'heathen' was not the best word-choice - Jews are not heathen, you are right. I rejoice that God will one day lift the veil and all of Israel will know Messiah! I believe this war will only facilitate this. Brother Bartle, I hate what's going on in the land where Yeshua walked, but I also realize that these things must happen in order to fulfill prophecy. And it's going to get far worse - whether you sacrifice your life tomorrow or not. Gog and Magog still need to invade Israel. Wilkerson prophesied that America will be destroyed - in one hour - by a nuclear assault from Russia. Not from the Islamo-fascist-radical-jihadi-abbadon worshippers. But I'm not worried, and neither should you be. If you really want to help your Jewish brethren, pray that their blinders be lifted so fewer of them will go to hell after they die in this up-coming war.

But if your intent is to rally Christians to take up AK-47's and slay the 'wicked jihadists' to help your poor Jewish brethren - well, brother - you are deceived. Contrary to what you've said, you [i]do not[/i] have a humble spirit; you are doing what zealous Peter tried to do in Gethsemane. Does the Holy Spirit exhort us to return evil for evil?

Brother, please, do not call your fellow Christian brothers and sisters here to kill with machine guns and bombs the radical Islamic jihadists who worship "abbadon." I am disturbed by this post.

Paul

C
crsschk

It IS World War Three

Not necessarily.

Did God use the hitlerites to scourge us by burning 6 million in the ovens of Europe?

Are you [i]sure[/i] you want to presume that was the case?

The very problem with all this forecasting is in it's speculation.

will give to you what the Spirit has revealed to me, that in the coming days, America will suffer a grievous hideous attack on its shores, that will far eclipse the attack of 9/11.

That's vauge and not any different than the political pundints or news media educated guess. Have a great deal of problem with these sort of stipulations. What happens if things die down and settle out for a season? Do we hear the report's from our 'prophet's' ... "I was wrong"? It seems so rare I cannot even recall to mind a single instance of recanting, generally it is either forgotten, recapitulated or twisted into another version of something yet future.

Don't get the wrong idea though, I am not trying to make you into a prophet or your words prophecy, just to point out that great deal of these things are nothing more than newspaper theology. Every time something happens in Israel many Christians begin to lose their minds, and run off on flights of fancy to explain or forecast what is happeneing in "The Heavenlies" is being manifested on the earth. This is just not necessarily so.

Neither is this to turn a deaf eye to what is happening at the moment, the threats and verbiage, make that rhetoric from different fronts. There are a lot of things going on this earth that get little to no recoginition, atrocities attached to religious titles, for instance and for a different perspective; [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10011&forum=48#77670]UGANDA ~ Deliver Us from Kony[/url]

Something else needing mention;

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

[b]Act 10:35 -
But in every nation[/b]
... - This is given as a reason for what Peter had just said, that God was no respecter of persons. The sense is, that he now perceived that the favors of God were not confined to the Jew, but might be extended to all others on the same principle. The remarkable circumstances here - the vision to him, and to Cornelius, and the declaration that the alms of Cornelius were accepted - now convinced him that the favors of God were no longer to be confined to the Jewish people, but might be extended to all. This was what the vision was designed to teach, and to communicate this knowledge to the apostles was an important step in their work of spreading the gospel.

[b]In every nation[/b] - Among all people. Jews or Gentiles. Acceptance with God does not depend on the fact of being descended from Abraham, or of possessing external privileges, but on the state of the heart.

[b]He that feareth him[/b] - This is put for piety toward God in general. See notes on Act_9:31. It means that he who honors God and keeps His Law; he who is a true worshipper of God, according to the light and privileges which he has, is approved by him, as giving evidence that he is his friend.

[b]And worketh righteousness[/b] - Does what is right and just. This refers to his conduct toward man. He that discharges conscientiously his duty to his fellow-men, and evinces by his conduct that he is a righteous man. These two things comprehend the whole of religion, the sum of all the requirements of God - piety toward God, and justice toward people; and as Cornelius had showed these, he showed that, though a Gentile, he was actuated by true religion. We may observe here:

(1) That it is not said that Cornelius was accepted on accouter of his good works. Those works were simply an evidence of true piety in the heart; a proof that he feared and loved God, and not a meritorious ground of acceptance.

(2) he improved the light which he had.

(3) “he embraced the Saviour when he was offered to him.” This circumstance makes an essential difference between Cornelius and those who depend on their morality in Christian lands. They do not embrace the Lord Jesus, and they are, therefore, totally unlike the Roman centurion. His example should not be pled, therefore, by those who neglect the Saviour, for it furnishes no evidences that they will be accepted when they are totally unlike him.

Albert Barnes

[i]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.[/i]
Gal 3:28

H
hmmhmm

as i see it there is no need for us to be to worried about this... jesus said these things must happend dont let your hearts be trobled... i belive everything that happends is according to gods plan...we might not understand everything, but i trust in gods plan... if you still have worries then read the bible...its quite clear how its all is going down... i know whos going to win anyway, and thats what matters... and all people who dont belive in him jesus christ...they are on the losing side....so since i feel there arent much time left our efforts and worries should be how we can get as many people over to the winning side, that should be our main consern, of course we should pray for israels saftey...but as i understand the word only a little part of the israeli people will be spared...

we are peacemakers as christians... we should never be for war no matter how evil a country may be...we should pray for our enemies... we must pray for muslims... we must pray for these young men and woman now in training for suicide bombs.... pray for that they might be saved so our lord can recive glory... we cant as christians go out and say Declare WAR!!! how can we win the world to christ by force? we must win them by love....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlBA2zp992c

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sermonindex

Forgive me if I seemed to be directing a personal attack at you, that was not my intent.

I also believe it was not your intent, to say

"as usual, You are getting emotional and turning this thread into a personal attack". "Your words are mean-spirited and unfair".

"as usual"? C'mon Paul, forgive me if this seemed as a personal attack, but if you're words "Preach the Gospel" were an exhortation, they didnt seem like that, and if I was mistaken, I ask forgiveness.

I read those words as an admonition, as a rebuke, and if that was your intent, you know not my walk, I preach the Gospel everyday, and sometimes I use words when i do this, because I work and live in a world where Jesus is a total irrelvancy. I carry the Body of Christ within me and those around me KNOW it, and they watch, closely, to see if this Grace is a REAL thing and NOT just a bunch of words. I show in deed, and in my heart that I love them and I pray for them, and that they are precious to me. In this secular work group I am the leader, and they see me, reading the Word, AND living it, and they see me at times on my knees in prayer, and no one scoffs or laughs, they watch.

I have a homosexual who works for me and was so terrified that i would fire him, he came up to me and confessed, "I'm gay, I wanted you to know that. I said, "come here"...he did, and i hugged him and said "I love you like Christ loved you, and there is no condition on this love...I want you to know that". Now the Holy Spirit is dealing with this man, because he opens up and tells me his struggles, his torment and it will be the Holy Ghost that will reveal ALL to him, not me. If I got up in his face, or I fired him, or told him turn or you burn in hell, this will drive him from Christ possibly forever. I have many in my group who were raised Catholic, and are mad at the Lord, and I tell them, you knew me before, do you see the change?...yes, they say, and I tell them, religion kills, Jesus saves.

They watch and they listen, so closely, and its a tremendous burden. I don't say that to lift myself up, but when i perceive your words as a admonition, you might understand why I wrote to you what I did.

in cyber discussion the "tenor" of words can be misconstrued. for instance, you wrote this sentence:

But if your intent is to rally Christians to take up AK-47's and slay the 'wicked jihadists' to help your poor Jewish brethren - well, brother - you are deceived.

I didnt like the tenor of "my poor Jewish brethern"...and for me to say I don't like the tenor of that, is not me being mean-spirited, I'm just telling you that the tenor of that comes across as condescending. With the grace of God, the Israeli defense Forces have things well in hand. My intent was NOT to "rally" Christians to take up "AK-47"s (btw....our U.S. military uses M-16's, and Spec Forces use MP-5's)

My intent on the post was to discuss what I feel is a looming war against the State of israel against those who seek its destruction.....HizboAllah's mission statements clearly spells that out, and these jihadists are indeed wicked, and intent on murdering Jews, AND I might add the nation that they call the 'great satan', the United States of America is also on their hit list.

A just war is a war of national survival, and Jesus Himself said to the disciples, all who were Jews, "...and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one". We now find ourselves in a war of national survival, both Israel and the U.S.

you say my words are mean spirited, yet you say I'm "decieved", and "that I dont have a humble spirit". Peter was trying to prevent Jesus from fulfilling what He came to earth to do, to be the atoning sacrifice that brought all the nations under His Blood.

If someone is trying to kill your family or your nation in the name of a god, and you defend those who you are tasked to protect, this is not returning evil for evil, this is what is known as a just war. I won't go to where you are going and call you deceived, I just disagree.

I'll say this again, my heart is heavy because I know that Israel is under grave threat, but misunderstand me not, Israel with the help of Yahweh who has proceeded their army these past sixty years in the face of overwhelming odds and numbers will once again defeat the jihadists.

But something new has entered the picture, they have also attacked America on 9/11, and fully intend to keep attacking us. Only the Grace of God will prevent further, more murerous attacks

Each American must do what he feels he or she must God, Bless God that we have a nation where one has the freedom to conscientously object to take up arms in defense of country.

and forgive me if you believe that I implied you were a hypocrite, that was not my intent or meaning.

"Emotional"? If my heart being heavy at the current events means that I am emotional, I plead guilty as charged.

But a personal attack upon you? not guilty, and I ask your forgiveness if you percieved it as such.

bartle

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PaulWest

Dear Bartle,

No offense taken, brother! You are right about the "tenor" on these things. My exhortation to preach the gospel was simply a brotherly reminder of our real purpose here on earth. The weapons God has given us are spiritual - not carnal guns and explosive devices.

And, yes, you are decieved (and anyone else who claims to walk under the banner of the cross) if you think Christ has empowered Christians to fight the enemy with more bullets and bloodshed (I'm current military, btw, 10 years US Army. Have you ever served?). AK-47's and AK-74's and I.E.D. roadside bombs are what the enemy uses; I spoke in terms of returning evil for evil.

I understand your heart, brother. But God's people are to be peculiar, set apart from the world. We don't do things the United States Department of Defense way. I'm sorry to have had you misunderstand my words; that's all I was trying to say. I think you might read too much into my words and look for disparaging insinuations. I assure you I write this with love and not sarcasm. Again, if you could hear my voice, you would detect my earnesty as one brother in Christ addressing another.

You told me to go look at myself in the mirror. By saying this, you immediately swung the conversation into the personal. You've done this before to me and to others on different threads. A pattern is evolving. That's all I was pointing out. Nobody wants to listen when they feel like they're being put down with petty insults.

I want to clear all this up! This is ridiculous, and it grieves the Spirit of God.

I make peace with you in Jesus' Name, and ask that you forgive anything I wrote that may have come off as a personal insult.

Blessings over you in the name of Yeshua!

Brother Paul

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sermonindex

Dear bartle,

In the other thread on whether this is WW3 or not, you mentioned the Vine and I asked you to expound a little further - which I think you have done here - perhaps inadvertently - when you said

The nation of Israel is hardly "heathen", they are God's chosen people, and you who have been grafted into this Vine thru the atoning Blood of Messiah
May I point out, gently, that this is not the precise meaning of either John 15 or Romans 9, in which first, the Lord Jesus is the Vine and His - our - Father, the husbandman who prunes and grafts. Yes, the first members of the Church were Jewish by natural birth, but it is the circumcision of all our hearts which makes both natural Jews and natural Gentiles 'Jews' inwardly, which I believe you understand.

I'm not sure from what you've said, if you 'see' this, the way I do from scripture, that ALL of us - Jews and Gentiles - were [u]cut off[/u] from God by sin, and we are now grafted into [b]Him[/b] by faith as you say (of Abrahamic example), [i]becoming[/i] His chosen people.... Ephesians 1:4 - 'accepted in the Beloved' .... completely equal with one another through the cross, by which [i]all flesh[/i] is crucified, and us to the world.

The thesis in Romans 9 in which Paul longs for unsaved Jews to discover the Messiah and their right to be adopted into sonship of the Father, with those who already believe - that is, with those who are already grafted into the Vine - keeps these points very clear.

On a separate point, a while back, someone mentioned to me that Deuteronomy was a very prophetic book, just before I was about to read it again. And I found several things there which surprised me, in confirmation of this. I wonder if anyone has ever suggested this verse was fulfilled by the holocaust?

Deuteronomy 32:24
[They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction:

I don't ask to be insensitive to the huge trauma this caused to many, many people, but simply to remind us all that God has planned, and often revealed His heart through the prophets, and often has not received the response He would desire from any of us, not just from Jews.

As we seek His heart for our individual responses to what is going on in the world stage with regard to Israel, may we allow ourselves to be drawn out in prayer as the Spirit leads. And may we genuinely 'do' what He gives us to do or pray or follow after, knowing that our contribution, no matter how tiny, may be a vital piece in someone else's life-jigsaw.

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sermonindex

all love to you in the Name of Messiah.

I served in the Navy, stationed not far from the DMZ in Korea, after my service I was going to aliyah to Israel, but one of the reasons I didnt go was that I didnt want to HAVE to kill Arabs because naturally I would have served in the INF.


Christ did NOT "empower" Christians to kill, but hear me, the day of Jews just lining up to be slaughtered by those thirst for their blood are over. That time died when 700 Jewish fighters in the ghetto of Warsaw held off 15,000 elite Waffen SS troops for well over a month.

That is when the IDF was born, in the hell of the Warsaw Ghetto.

This is a just war, it is a war of national survival, for both Israel and the U.S.

Brother, I'm not flagwaving, just stating the grim, grievous tragic facts.

This is war.

My next duty post overseas will be in North Korea with a Korean langauge Bible in my hand, only God knows when that day will come.

God bless you is my prayer.

P
PaulWest

Brother Bartle,

May God bless all you put your hands to do. May Jesus' most Holy Name be exalted through your sacrifice and burden. May God grant the answer to this prayer in your lifetime: that you may see Christianity flourish in N Korea and millions won to Jesus. I bless you, my dear brother.

With Christian love in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Brother Paul

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ChrisJD

Greetings everyone.

I would like to say some things about the issue of Christian Pacisfism.

I do recognise the tension within the tender heart of a Christian that thoughts of warfare stirr within us. At the same time I'm aware that the Christian encounters many [i]hard sayings[/i] in the teachings of Christ and even some [i]shocking[/i] actions while beholding the works of God.


In trying to understand all of this I wonder if we are not left with an aspect of life in this fallen world which ultimatley can only be explained and applied to our lives in any practicle sense by seeing it through the lense of Divine Providence. I wonder if there is not room in our consideration of the righteousness of Pacifisim or that of an active Patriotisim for circumstances and events over which God must ultimately be superintending in the outworking of His plan for humanity, saved and unsaved, those under His Governemnt through covenant and those under His government through men.

It so happens, that after failing, for whatever reason, in attempting to comment on this issue, quite [i]by accident[/i] I happened across an article here at SI while looking for something completely different, which, though not speaking in any direct sense to this issue, will perhaps speak very eloquently in its descriptions of events from America's bloody civil war.

I would like to invite you all to read this article concerning revival during the American Civil War

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2556]The Revival in the Confederate Army[/url]

Like the tree which Moses cast into the waters at Marah, I see in this article how Calvary's Tree has made even the bitter waters of war, sweet for many - painfull though it must have been.

Bless you all in Christ.

P
PaulWest

"Would we send our daughters off to have sex if it would benefit our country? Yet, we send our sons off to kill when we think it would benefit our country!"

- Leonard Ravenhill

I
IRONMAN

brethren

forgive me if I seem harsh, but I'm wondering how deep the love of the church for the Jewish people really is.

that is a good question...do we say we love the jews to sooth our consciences or do we mean it?

M
markm

"If we do not go to the heathen with the Gospel they will come to us, as occupation armies."

-- Brother Andrew

(In reference to the USSR invading Poland. Seems still valid in reference to Islamic nations.)

T
Tears_of_joy

"Would we send our daughters off to have sex if it would benefit our country? Yet, we send our sons off to kill when we think it would benefit our country!"

This is striking statement.
Do you know the source of it?

P
PassingThru

Do you know the source of it?

It's from Leonard Ravenhill in one of the resources on this site.

PassingThru

I
IRONMAN

bro mike
you said:

Are you sure you want to presume that was the case?

in response to:

Did God use the hitlerites to scourge us by burning 6 million in the ovens of Europe?

God did use the nations around Israel in times past to be His tools in judging her, why would the holocaust be any different? i think Art Katz takes a similar position to bro bartle on the holocaust and then also speaks of 9-11 as judgement on us too, i agree in both cases.

you also said:

That's vauge and not any different than the political pundints or news media educated guess. Have a great deal of problem with these sort of stipulations. What happens if things die down and settle out for a season? Do we hear the report's from our 'prophet's' ... "I was wrong"? It seems so rare I cannot even recall to mind a single instance of recanting, generally it is either forgotten, recapitulated or twisted into another version of something yet future.

in response to:

will give to you what the Spirit has revealed to me, that in the coming days, America will suffer a grievous hideous attack on its shores, that will far eclipse the attack of 9/11.

i suppose that the statement was vague but that doesn't discount it as being false. the fact that even the pundits say similar things doean't mean that bro Bartle didn't receive it from on High either. i don't think that the prophets were unaware of what was going on around them politically, in fact i think that they knew what was up in most cases but our Lord showed them how it all fit into His plan. even the the apostates in Israel knew full well that the Babylonians were on their doorstep ready to invade!just as we all know, heathen or not that it's only a matter of time till the next attack.

if things settle down for a season that doesn't mean the prophecy is invalid, it may yet come to pass. if it doesn't then obviously the prophet ought to recant.

all this speaks to what we talked about on the prophetic credentials 2 thread wherein i said that we ought not write everything off as false because it just as bad as accepting everything as the truth. we ought to test the word of the prophet and let our Lord show us if it is from Him or not.

our Lord has told me similar things to what bro Bartle has said concerning the coming judgement on our nation and the world in general by visions and the interpretations thereof. i don't doubt the validity of what bro bartle is saying but i do agree in as much as there is always a need for caution.

C
crsschk

if things settle down for a season that doesn't mean the prophecy is invalid, it may yet come to pass. if it doesn't then obviously the prophet ought to recant.

When?

In some indefinite time frame?

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike

In some indefinite time frame?

here is the thing i suppose, if things settle down for however long, the prophecy is not necessarily invalidated, how long was it until the prophecies of jeremiah came true? 50/70 yrs or something like that?he started out as a young man when God called him to be a prophet and it was at the end of his life that the judgement came right? surely in that time the people thought all was well. neither one of us can put a definite time frame on how long the calm would be.

i believe our Lord will reveal more and more details about timing the closer the event comes to whomever He is sending with the word.

much to consider huh? :-?

edit

i guess the time frame would be God's time no?

S
sermonindex

MikeB said

"I was wrong"? It seems so rare I cannot even recall to mind a single instance of recanting,
I think this is because many prophecies of old, did not come to pass during the lifetime of the prophet. How is a prophet to know his prophecy will never come to pass, if he is to die before its time anyway?

The other thing on my mind about bartle and Ironman's assertions of having heard from God of some terrible event worse than 9/11, is of our members on SI who have had dreams and visions of which they are unclear of the interpretations, but, the actual visuals are totally compatible with a very serious event in N. America. I think of LetUsPray, Scroggins, and most recently, Ignitemysoul on 2006/7/4. Although he offered a location by guesswork, what he saw is compatible with aspects of LetUsPray's revelation that an event would occur in North-eastern USA, possibly reaching into Canada.

I think the urgency which these brethren felt during these revelations, [i][b]should[/b][/i] cause us all ask ourselves how ready we are to meet our Maker. Once the details of that is really settled in our hearts, we can be more use to the Lord, free from fear and scepticism, simply willing to lay down our lives if that should be an aspect of our callings.

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sermonindex

bartle said

My next duty post overseas will be in North Korea with a Korean langauge Bible in my hand, only God knows when that day will come.
Can anyone remember the name of the brother on SI, who is in (or near) South Korea, (I think) who was asking for help with translation for his small flock of two, meeting in a small house church?

(If I've got the wrong language group here, please correct me.)

I just wonder if those who do understand the Korean language and English, might be able to help him there, by email, occasionally?

C
crsschk

Will continue to hold the dissenting view of these things for a number of reasons.

1. The self focus given that tends to make the USA the center of the world with everything else revolving around it.

2. That the so called 'prophecy's' of Uganda, Africa, Somalia, Ethiopia, China, North Korea, across untold territories and places on this planet are conspicuous by their absence.

3. That 'reading the writing on the wall' does not constitute "prophecy" any more than rhetoric spells accuracy, assumptions fortune telling or the whole collective efforts of the now modern cottage industry of so called prophets anything other than confusion and presumptions.

4. The highly overlooked fact that a true prophecy of events yet future is a [i]fact[/i], not a [i]possibility[/i]. Is not vague or spun off of current events. Strange is it not that these matters almost always come about while they are yet present...

5. That some odd fear is given to the subconscious of accepting so called prophecy's or lending them credence without question despite the lack of details, time-lines, the preponderance of generalities, the question of character, spiritual incumbent, the test of scripture and the antithesis of a Berean mindset.

6. That the overlooked history since the close of the apostolic age had quite a different look and understanding of what a 'prophet' is according to the sliver shelled out from a small section of scriptures and is not being measured accordingly to all that has been written on this matter. (More below on this)

7. The defending that almost always comes about when these things are put to that same test.

Whatever the case may be, of 'cessation' or otherwise the following only food for thought, there is something still yet troubling that we have hordes of so called prophets now speaking all kinds of unchecked, untested, undefined, statements supposedly from God's own enormity. That many a young convert can be easily swayed, given a false fear over a true, factual concern. That these things are often wrought with high speculation and assumption, that the [i]whole[/i] counsel of God is not assimilated and considered in these matters even the odd overlooked statements made by Paul who gave out these instructions of 'offices' and said as much in ...

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Where was all his futuristic 'prophecy'?

The attempt here is not to dissuade anyone nor to denounce everyone. It just seems to me there is a whole lot of holes in this matter, a great deal that is not being considered or adequately defined and far too much weight given to utterances untested.

For your considerations;

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Rom 12:6 -
[b]Having then gifts[/b] - All the endowments which Christians have are regarded by the apostle as gifts. God has conferred them; and this fact, when properly felt, tends much to prevent our thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought to think, Rom_12:3. For the use of the word rendered “gifts,” see Rom_1:11; Rom_5:15-16; Rom_6:23; Rom_11:29; 1Co_7:7; 1Co_12:4, 1Co_12:9,1Co_12:28, etc. It may refer to natural endowments as well as to the favors of grace; though in this place it refers doubtless to the distinctions conferred on Christians in the churches.

[b]Differing[/b] - It was never designed that all Christians should be equal. God designed that people should have different endowments. The very nature of society supposes this. There never was a state of perfect equality in any thing; and it would be impossible that there should be, and yet preserve society. In this, God exercises a sovereignty, and bestows his favors as he pleases, injuring no one by conferring favors on others; and holding me responsible for the right use of what I have, and not for what may be conferred on my neighbor.

[b]According to the grace[/b] - That is, the favor, the mercy that is bestowed on us. As all that we have is a matter of grace, it should keep us from pride; and it should make us willing to occupy our appropriate place in the church. True honor consists not in splendid endowments, or great wealth and function. It consists in rightly discharging the duties which God requires of us in our appropriate sphere. If all people held their talents as the gift of God; if all would find and occupy in society the place for which God designed them, it would prevent no small part of the uneasiness, the restlessness, the ambition, and misery of the world.

[b]Whether prophecy[/b] - The apostle now proceeds to specify the different classes of gifts or endowments which Christians have, and to exhort them to discharge aright the duty which results from the rank or function which they held in the church. “The first is prophecy.” This word properly means to predict future events, but it also means to declare the divine will; to interpret the purposes of God; or to make known in any way the truth of God, which is designed to influence people. Its first meaning is to predict or foretell future events; but as those who did this were messengers of God, and as they commonly connected with such predictions, instructions, and exhortations in regard to the sins, and dangers, and duties of people, the word came to denote any who warned, or threatened, or in any way communicated the will of God; and even those who uttered devotional sentiments or praise. The name in the New Testament is commonly connected with teachers; Act_13:1, “There were in the church at Antioch certain prophets, and teachers, as Barnabas, etc.;” Act_15:32, “and Judas and Silas, being prophets themselves, etc.;” Act_21:10, “a certain prophet named Agabus.” In 1Co_12:28-29, prophets are mentioned as a class of teachers immediately after apostles, “And God hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets; thirdly teachers, etc.”
The same class of persons is again mentioned in 1Co_14:29-32, 1Co_14:39. In this place they are spoken of as being under the influence of revelation, “Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets;” 1Co_14:39, “Covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.” In this place endowments are mentioned under the name of prophecy evidently in advance even of the power of speaking with tongues. Yet all these were to be subject to the authority of the apostle. 1Co_14:37. In Eph_4:11, they are mentioned again in the same order; “And he gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors, and teachers, etc.” From these passages the following things seem clear in relation to this class of persons:

(1) They were an order of teachers distinct from the apostles, and next to them in authority and rank.

(2) they were under the influence of revelation, or inspiration in a certain sense.

(3) they had power of controlling themselves, and of speaking or keeping silence as they chose. They had the power of using their prophetic gifts as we have the ordinary faculties of our minds, and of course of abusing them also. This abuse was apparent also in the case of those who had the power of speaking with tongues, 1Co_14:2, 1Co_14:4,1Co_14:6, 1Co_14:11, etc.

(4) they were subject to the apostles.

(5) they were superior to the other teachers and pastors in the church.

(6) the office or the endowment was temporary, designed for the settlement and establishment of the church; and then, like the apostolic office, having accomplished its purpose, to be disused, and to cease. From these remarks, also, will be seen the propriety of regulating this function by apostolic authority; or stating, as the apostle does here, the manner or rule by which this gift was to be exercised.

[b]According to the proportion[/b] - This word ἀναλογίαν analogian is no where else used in the New Testament. The word properly applies to mathematics (Scheusner), and means the ratio or proportion which results from comparison of one number or magnitude with another. In a large sense, therefore, as applied to other subjects, it denotes the measure of any thing. With us it means analogy, or the congruity or resemblance discovered between one thing and another, as we say there is an analogy or resemblance between the truths taught by reason and revelation. (See Butler’s Analogy.) But this is not its meaning here. It means the measure, the amount of faith bestowed on them, for he was exhorting them to Rom_12:3. “Think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” The word “faith” here means evidently, not the truths of the Bible revealed elsewhere; nor their confidence in God; nor their personal piety; but the extraordinary endowment bestowed on them by the gifts of prophecy.

They were to confine themselves strictly to that; they were not to usurp the apostolic authority, or to attempt to exercise their special function; but they were to confine themselves strictly to the functions of their office according to the measure of their faith, that is, the extraordinary endowment conferred on them. The word “faith” is thus used often to denote that extraordinary confidence in God which attended the working of miracles, etc., Mat_17:26; Mat_21:21; Luk_17:6. If this be the fair interpretation of the passage, then it is clear that the interpretation which applies it to systems of theology, and which demands that we should interpret the Bible so as to accord with the system, is one that is wholly unwarranted. It is to be referred solely to this class of religious teachers, without reference to any system of doctrine, or to any thing which had been revealed to any other class of people; or without affirming that there is any resemblance between one truth and another. All that may be true, but it is not the truth taught in this passage. And it is equally clear that the passage is not to be applied to teachers now, except as an illustration of the general principle that even those endowed with great and splendid talents are not to over-estimate them, but to regard them as the gift of God; to exercise them in subordination to his appointment and to seek to employ them in the manner, the place, and to the purpose that shall be according to his will. They are to employ them in the purpose for which God gave them; and for no other.

Albert Barnes

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roadsign

how deep the love of the church for the Jewish people really is.

This is a good question. Yet, it also requires that we understand what “love” implies.

It would seem that God’s love for Israel failed when he allowed her to be destroyed as a nation. It would seem that Christ’s love for Israel was grossly deficient when he failed to rescue them from their political bondage. Just imagine how bitterly disappointing he would have been to those who had so intently anticipated that great day when their Redeemer would come and save them. Wasn’t that what he promised to do? Jesus turned out to be a lame loser. In fact, he was worse than that – he shattered the very foundation of their entire social/religious structure. He was a stumbling stone. What kind of love was that? He left this earth without doing one thing to further the kingdom of Israel. On the contrary he prophesied their destruction.

Now fast-forward to our recent history when Israel became a political nation. It would seem that God was finally smiling at the descendants of ancient Israel. Many have come to believe that the OT prophesies apply to that event. Yet that is really a very shaky assumption. For Christ never promised that. Christ clearly did NOT come to establish political kingdoms either while on earth or after that. It is we humans who value political kingdoms far more than God’s kingdom. Our mindsets are prefabricated that way. Besides, we crave the security and identity that political kingdoms give.

Of course, I realize that God has a marvellous way of overruling man’s faulty ambitions, and using it to further his eternal kingdom. …Yet…

When we rest our hope on a shaky assumption that an ancient prophesy has been fulfilled, our love becomes fractured. It is on the wrong foundation. We aim to preserve what is only temporal. We value political kingdoms over God’s kingdom. And so we administer a false hope in people and fail to love them with CHRIST’S love. This is no better than hate, really. And it opens the door to all kinds of heresy – misuse of Biblical references to support all kinds of future events. And the general, clearly-stated sentiment of Scripture is missed entirely. If it happened in the time of Christ, it can certainly happen now – among devout Bible believers.

I wonder how many of our heresies are responsible for political and humanitarian tragedies – past, present, and future – the result of misdirected love.

I suspect that a day is coming when God’s people will be deeply humbled – when they realize that in many ways they have been chasing after the wind, and have even been responsible for some of the human tragedies. Will we respond like those humble Jews at Pentecost who admit their sins, that they really did not know what they were doing when the crucified Christ. Or will we become more hardened and persecute the true followers of Christ – those who preach an eternal kingdom – a kingdom of righteousness, of eternal salvation….


Thoughts to consider:

What is the Kingdom of God?
Where is it?
How is it manifested?
When?
How does it compare to earthly kingdoms?


Diane

R
roadsign

would like to invite you all to read this article concerning revival during the American Civil War

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2556]The Revival of the Confederate Army[/url]

Like the tree which Moses cast into the waters at Marah, I see in this article how Calvary's Tree has made even the bitter waters of war, sweet for many - painfull though it must have been.

Chris, I appreciate the insertion of this article. It really helps us maintain a wider perspective. We can discuss the rights and wrongs of wars, theologies, etc till the cows come home, but ultimately God works regardless of what we may think. This is a touching account of God's work in the lives of the soldiers. That reminds me of a saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes" People often see their need for God best when in hard places and all pride is stripped away.

Diane

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philologos

In our prayer meeting last week our thoughts turned to the current Middle East Conflict and we found ourselves praying, in accordance with the scripture, for Hamas, Hizbollah and the Taleban's leaders. 'for them' not 'against them'. “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made [u]for all men[/u]; For kings, and [u]for all that are in authority[/u]; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
(1Tim 2:1-4 KJVS) This is the passage where Paul goes on to instruct that we pray "...without wrath and reasoning" (1Tim 2:8) Do we understand that 'wrath' disqualifies our praying? and that 'reasoning' is no help either?

What did we pray? That God would speak to the hearts of all men in authority, not just those who think they hold the moral high ground. That He would bring to them a consciousness of Himself and of eternal consequences. That He would save them from themselves and their angers... so that we (and the inhabitants of Lebanon, Gaza, Israel and Afghanistan) might lead quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and honest.

We prayed these things because 'this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour'.

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike
you said:

1. The self focus given that tends to make the USA the center of the world with everything else revolving around it.

for those of us who are prophets here in the u.s. i suppose our Lord shows us what will happen here not because it is the centre of the world but because what happens here will have a more direct impact on our lives and of those around us. which is not to say that what concerns other people in other places doesn't matter though.

you wrote

2. That the so called 'prophecy's' of Uganda, Africa, Somalia, Ethiopia, China, North Korea, across untold territories and places on this planet are conspicuous by their absence.

the same can probably be said about prophecies of AMerica in those places and indeed it seems to me though that in those places would seem to be the centre of the world to those people/prophets.

you also said:

4. The highly overlooked fact that a true prophecy of events yet future is a fact, not a possibility. Is not vague or spun off of current events. Strange is it not that these matters almost always come about while they are yet present...

the only way though we can then validate he prophecy is when it happens. the factuality of the prophecy is unaffected by our belief of it or lack thereof. bro mike we must also remember that our Lord reveals how current events fit into the bigger picture, the future can't be independant from the present. just because what someone says is prophecy seems based on current events, it doesn't mean that it's invalid, we must make room to consider that our Lord may be showing us how current events fit into it all.

5. That some odd fear is given to the subconscious of accepting so called prophecy's or lending them credence without question despite the lack of details, time-lines, the preponderance of generalities, the question of character, spiritual incumbent, the test of scripture and the antithesis of a Berean mindset.

bro like i should have said on Prophetic Credentials II and later did after you brought it to light, we need to test these things, but not based on our understanding because unless it is from heaven it will be jaded and we'll miss the message.

The attempt here is not to dissuade anyone nor to denounce everyone. It just seems to me there is a whole lot of holes in this matter, a great deal that is not being considered or adequately defined and far too much weight given to utterances untested.

bro there is always room for consideration. i must say though that up until this point, only 3 other people (outside of the Godhead) could bear witness to what our Lord has been showing me concerning the future. our Lord has been merciful enough to let me know in those dark times when i feel like i've lost all my marbles that i haven't. i was content with that but of late, through s.i. our Lord has shown me that there are others out there to whom He has shown such things. not that i asked Him to show me these people though, he just did. the thing is my spirit bears witness to what they say, or what our Lord says through them. if i'm wrong then there are a bunch of people here on s.i. along with myself who need a special hand from heaven to loose us from this... :-? this might be a hard thing to comprehend but i've found that unless you're called to be a prophet, this thing will tend to be abstract, kinda like how i'm an african and although i could tell you certain things about all that because you're not an african, they don't really hit home. this applies to all the other callings/offices/roles too i'm finding.

C
Compton

Do we understand that 'wrath' disqualifies our praying? and that 'reasoning' is no help either?

How often do I go to the Lord in prayer over some situtation, having beforehand determined in my mind what needs to be done, what others should do, or what I will do?

I
IRONMAN

sis dorcas

The other thing on my mind about bartle and Ironman's assertions of having heard from God of some terrible event worse than 9/11, is of our members on SI who have had dreams and visions of which they are unclear of the interpretations, but, the actual visuals are totally compatible with a very serious event in N. America. I think of LetUsPray, Scroggins, and most recently, Ignitemysoul on 2006/7/4. Although he offered a location by guesswork, what he saw is compatible with aspects of LetUsPray's revelation that an event would occur in North-eastern USA, possibly reaching into Canada.

if we are all wrong, like i said to bro mike, then we need a special hand from heaven to loose us from this strong delousion... :-?

I think the urgency which these brethren felt during these revelations, should cause us all ask ourselves how ready we are to meet our Maker. Once the details of that is really settled in our hearts, we can be more use to the Lord, free from fear and scepticism, simply willing to lay down our lives if that should be an aspect of our callings.

and sis dorcas that's the bottom line, we ought to avail ourselves to our Lord wholly and we have a long way to go...Lord help us. AMEN.

R
Rahman


Wow bro Ron ...

Praise God for His use of you to convey 1Tim 2:1-4 in this present turmoil ... i surely needed this reminder, this re-adjustment ... God is good! ... Bless you bro!

S
sermonindex


Dear bro bartle,

I hope you have time to read my post on p3 and comment, please.

I ask this partly in the light of the reason for my post, and partly because of your question which one or two have addressed.


roadsign said:

It would seem that God’s love for Israel failed when he allowed her to be destroyed as a nation. It would seem that Christ’s love for Israel was grossly deficient when he failed to rescue them from their political bondage. Just imagine how bitterly disappointing he would have been to those who had so intently anticipated that great day when their Redeemer would come and save them. Wasn’t that what he promised to do? Jesus turned out to be a lame loser. In fact, he was worse than that – he shattered the very foundation of their entire social/religious structure. He was a stumbling stone. What kind of love was that? He left this earth without doing one thing to further the kingdom of Israel. On the contrary he prophesied their destruction.

Now fast-forward to our recent history when Israel became a political nation. It would seem that God was finally smiling at the descendants of ancient Israel. Many have come to believe that the OT prophesies apply to that event. Yet that is really a very shaky assumption. For Christ never promised that. Christ clearly did NOT come to establish political kingdoms either while on earth or after that. It is we humans who value political kingdoms far more than God’s kingdom. Our mindsets are prefabricated that way. Besides, we crave the security and identity that political kingdoms give.

Of course, I realize that God has a marvellous way of overruling man’s faulty ambitions, and using it to further his eternal kingdom. …Yet…

...

Thoughts to consider:

What is the Kingdom of God?
Where is it?
How is it manifested?
When?
How does it compare to earthly kingdoms?

Your question 'how deep the love of the church for the Jewish people really is' bewilders me slightly, because the Lord was sent to 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel', while at the same time making clear in John's quote in his chapter 10, that there were other sheep to be brought into the one fold.

Just as we have now on SI - continuous discussions about revival and whether a person who really [i]knows[/i] the Lord needs to be 'revived' - I would suggest there is no 'real' Christian who has [i]persecuted[/i] Jews.... Such a history associated by reputation with 'the church', is an embarrassment, as are the Crusades, to some of us.

I would like to believe that your discernment of the invisible and [i]true[/i] Church, reaches beyond historical labels and that you come quickly to understand those events which distress you, are just as distressing to [i]real[/i] Christians. Historically, Israel had the first and best opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, and following the great commission as it is recorded by Matthew, Jews are now on a level par with every other nationality - wherever they dwell - whom 'the Church' is commanded to evangelise. I can't see any scriptural reason (Can you?) to give them preference over traditional Gentiles, except within the context of an individual's calling.

Matthew 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. (KJV)

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sermonindex

End time prophecy is in no way an area of expertise for me... but I think we can all look at whats happening in Israel right now and begin looking up.

Folks, we can debate all day long about what the recent events mean... but the fact is: Our redemption draweth nigh!

Krispy

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ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

Diane, concerning the article about revival in the confederate army, am glad you appreciated it! and..

It really helps us maintain a wider perspective.

It(the article) was sort of an unexpected surprise to me. One of the most difficult things I've had to imagine about a Christian's involvement in war is the situation of brother fighting against brother, christian angainst christian. And here I found an account of what would have to be that very thing, and perhaps in more than one way.

Yet, whatever our convictions, these accounts leave us facing the reality that God may indeed have moved in their midst. Who would want, nay dare, to frown upon that?

I see in it all the tension between two conflicting and universal aspects of our existence: the ideal good and a very real but seemingly nescesary evil. And how these two [i]forces of nature[/i] so to speak, how they are dominated under His hand Who rules them in benevolent providence, is to my mind, a great and stubborn mystery.

Also, I noticed this in another post, where you wrote concerning natural Israel

I can't see any scriptural reason (Can you?) to give them preference over traditional Gentiles, except within the context of an individual's calling.

I thought of this from Romans 11:28, and even if it is not along the lines of what you were thinking I thought I'd share it

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Peace be with you all in Messiah Jesus

R
roadsign

A profound statement:

I see in it all the tension between two conflicting and universal aspects of our existence: the ideal good and a very real but seemingly nescesary evil.

I think many sense this discrepancy:

"Church history exposes repeatedly the gap between the ideal as exemplified in the teachings of Jesus and the way Christians have lived and actually behaved."
- by Charles Kimball, When Religion Becomes Evil

We hang our heads to admit it, but jihad is not a Muslim invention.
~ C.S. Cowles

Especially since they represent violence that was actually instigated by the church for religious ends, the Crusades are unparalleled as the worst
example of Christian advocacy of violence and bloodshed.
~ Lisa Sowle Cahill, Love Your Enemies: Discipleship, Pacifism, and Just War Theory

Cursed be the man who holds back his sword from shedding blood.
~ Pope Gregory VII

In the Crusades we see most clearly how Christianity fully absorbed and was transformed by, rather than transforming, the prevailing cultural ethos.
~ Lisa Sowle Cahill, Love Your Enemies: Discipleship, Pacifism, and Just War Theory

How do you defeat a movement that defines defeat as victory? …Constantine.
~ James Carroll

Christian faith can seem to triumph over every evil except Christian triumphalism.
~ James Carroll

Tell me, how can a Christian defend Scripturally retaliation, rebellion, war, striking, slaying, torturing, stealing, robbing and plundering and burning cities, and conquering countries?
~ Menno Simons

In the midst of violence, war, and the use of military force, Christians are called to offer peaceful and nonviolent alternatives.
~ Brethren In Christ 1992 General Conference

Without strong roots in the life and faith of Jesus, Christianity easily reconciles God and Christ with the distorted values and priorities of the dominant culture that both ignores and accelerates a global crisis ofinjustice.
~ Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer, Jesus Against Christianity

Chris continues:

And how these two forces of nature so to speak, how they are dominated under His hand Who rules them in benevolent providence, is to my mind, a great and stubborn mystery.

I agree. Perhaps one of the biggest challenges we face is to come to terms with this significant discrepency, and accept the ultimate and eternal providence of God - even in and through the evil. Sadly, many never do discover this. For example:

"When asked why he did not consider becoming a Christian, Gandhi answered that he loved Jesus and His teachings, but he could not identify with Christendom as a whole because it generally does not follow Jesus. He was right. Christians are among the only people in the world who do not see Jesus and his teachings as clearly nonviolent."
~ Dale W. Brown, Biblical Pacifism

Edit: I praise God that he can still be trusted. I praise him that his righteousness will ultimately prevail. Human failures need not be a reason to doubt him, and reject his salvation.

Diane

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sermonindex

In some indefinite time frame?

was your question to Bro Ironman's post explaining what I had written on what the Spirit had revealed to me concerning future radical islamist terrorist attacks on America, and these attacks will make 9/11 seem like a traffic accident.

Believe me when I say that I am NOT a prophet, nor giving a word, nor holding myself out as anything but a sinner saved by Grace.

But when I smell smoke, both in the natural and in the heavenlies, I know there is a fire burning.

and I don't need anyone but God to validate what I feel in my heart to the coming days.

You desire a time frame?

do you think me a fool?

smell the air, it's coming.

bartle

I
IRONMAN

brethren
i jsut got a revelation from our Lord. God requires that we repent NOW hence most prophecies don't have a very very specific time associated with them. if we don't repent off the bat when the word of warning comes (which is really what God wants) it's not likely that we'll repent even if we get a time frame. think about it, God asks us to repent or we will be judged, and we ask Him "by when?" or "when will this judgement come?" why not simply repent no questions asked? repenting later doesn't seem wise to me.

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sermonindex

IRONMAN said

think about it, God asks us to repent or we will be judged,
1 Corinthians 11 (NKJV)
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 [u]But let a man examine himself[/u], and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.

31 [b]For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

[/b]32 [b]But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world[/b].

33 [b]Therefore[/b], my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.


I'm wondering why Paul doesn't mention 'repent'ance, here.

Is the instruction to 'judge' ourselves, a stronger injunction, which implies we already understand how God sees sin?

Also, is how one would pray if one felt convicted [u]as a Christian[/u], slightly different from how one would pray if one was not, and not free to take the bread and the wine anyway?

R
roadsign

Dorcas said:

I'm wondering why Paul doesn't mention 'repent'ance, here.
Perhaps because he doesn’t need to. He appealed to the Corinthians to judge themselves – ie discern, evaluate, open their eyes – in other words GET REAL, shake off the illusions.

When one sees himself honestly, then the symbols of bread and wine have their intended meaning. Then the sinner see the hopeless futility of his own devices. He realizes that he is fighting "against the Lord's Annointed One" (Ps.2:2) He sees his utter and desperate need for Christ. And then he can rejoice in the sacrificial death resurrection of our Lord.

Isn’t this what we need today: To get real! We’ve been getting comfortable in our illusions, and so our religious rituals, like communion, are merely church-playing. Unerneath all our busy-ness, our squabbling,etc we are really playing games with God.

I agree with Ironman – we are called to repent today. Yet I fear that the precious word, “repent” is in danger of becoming an illusive magic formula. There are many examples in Scripture were the word is not used, yet genuine repentance occurred. We need the meat of the word, not just the word.

The way I see it repentance is the ultimate product of honest judging of self (which requires divine enlightenment). Without honest self-judging, "accepting" Christ is only a bandaid.

I’d like to shout to the world, “Let’s get real and stop playing games!” Just think what would happen if we would get real, and our illusions were shaken off.

And if we continue to resist the divine call .....

Diane

P
philologos

Extra time is the grace of God but often it does not help.“But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. And [u]I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent[/u] of her fornication.”
(Rev 2:20-21 ASV)

C
crsschk

You desire a time frame?

do you think me a fool?

I desire that we might just truly [i]think[/i] and consider when it comes to things yet future. It is all the difference in the world to suppose or gander even a guess, that which [i]seems[/i] to be the case and that which is of the [i]'logical deductions drawn from proof texts'[/i] variety. (Tozer)

If, ... [i]every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment[/i] applies, what then of the pronouncements made [i]ipso facto[/i], statements uttered as the very word's of God by way of 'prophecy' ... how much more?

If you recall I qualified that earlier in making no assumption of you being either prophet or prophetic, but was drawing the similarities that these types of statements have with those uttered as such. The real test of these things is to come back one year from now and see where we are. That is neither hostile nor accusatory. By and large have found either a complete forgetfulness, dis-interest and in the more specific 'prophecies' a complete failure and 'proof' that which was then so adamantly important and convinced in the 'prophets' mind is now worthless, meaningless and false. But who cares, right? That seems far too often the sentiment.

Think you a fool? Think myself a fool, care to join me?

;-)

P
PreachParsly

The real test of these things is to come back one year from now and see where we are.

I was thinking.... I wonder if we were to say that about Jonah what would happen.

Just a thought...

I
IRONMAN

sis Dorcas and Diane
indeed we need the meat of this word repentance and to some extend the word itself. i've been fellowshipping at moody methodist here in galveston for about 3 yrs or so and i've heard that word used about 2 times. we need to hear it and then explain it. it seems to me repentance involves confessing of sin and turning from it, but turning Godward though. also it seems to me that it is a thing which must originate from God Himself because the pitiful state we're in is such that unless God Himself quickens us to our need for salvation, we're not going to know.

Perhaps because he doesn’t need to. He appealed to the Corinthians to judge themselves – ie discern, evaluate, open their eyes – in other words GET REAL, shake off the illusions.

ouch!


When one sees himself honestly, then the symbols of bread and wine have their intended meaning. Then the sinner see the hopeless futility of his own devices. He realizes that he is fighting "against the Lord's Annointed One" (Ps.2:2) He sees his utter and desperate need for Christ. And then he can rejoice in the sacrificial death resurrection of our Lord.

that's a fight in which there are only 2 outcomes,either you surrender or you'll be wiped out coz you can't win that fight...



Isn’t this what we need today: To get real! We’ve been getting comfortable in our illusions, and so our religious rituals, like communion, are merely church-playing. Unerneath all our busy-ness, our squabbling,etc we are really playing games with God.

OUCH!!! this is what we need. as our Lord has shown it to me, we are always in need of repenting because we are always sinning in some degree so we're not above receiving such a word and having to conform to it any more than we are exempt from judgement coz we know judgment begins with us. we need to repent NOW!!!

The way I see it repentance is the ultimate product of honest judging of self (which requires divine enlightenment). Without honest self-judging, "accepting" Christ is only a bandaid.

AMEN indeed sis!we need our Lord to show us coz our view will be favourable to us.and we let ourselves off the hook.


I’d like to shout to the world, “Let’s get real and stop playing games!” Just think what would happen if we would get real, and our illusions were shaken off.

that change is coming...REVIVAL!

And if we continue to resist the divine call .....

the only outcome of that is loss. i don't know every battle our Lord has fought but i don't know of anyone who has prevailed against Him...

indeed brethren let us fall on our faces and REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!

I
IRONMAN

bro Ron said:


philologos wrote:
Extra time is the grace of God but often it does not help.“But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. And [u]I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent[/u] of her fornication.”
(Rev 2:20-21 ASV)

so true...terrifyingly true. Lord help us.AMEN.

P
philologos

I was thinking.... I wonder if we were to say that about Jonah what would happen.

Ah, but Jonah [u]was[/u] a prophet!

S
sermonindex

(no hostile tone in the following words)

God didn't make me into a fool. At times, I may act the fool, but thats between Him, me and the Blood.

When I woke up on 9/11/2001, because of a early morning phone call, and turned on that TV and gazed upon the two burning towers, my first thought was that the dreams I had were now real.

I had seen that type of boiling alive smoke before.......I had seen this before, it was if my dreams were suddenly real.

Since that day, I have seen more, in my dreams and in my prayer life, communion with the Holy Spirit, and I won't reveal them, not out of any baseless pride soaked fear of being "wrong", but because it's all so horrible.

It was all contained in that cup of wrath that Jesus had to drink from, that cup that was revealed to bro Ravenhill in that old womans flat.

brother, I will try and say this as gently as I can, I am learning in spades, the real love that the "church" has for the Jewish people. If anyone thinks that this "modern" state of Israel is NOT of God, nor beloved of Yahweh, WOE to them.

and WOE to those who scheme and plot to destroy this nation of Israel.

The root of everything in the Middle east is contained with Genesis 16, this Ishmael, "the wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand against him....

"and he will live in hostility towards all his brothers".

Ishmael is coming for us now too, that is the United States, because we decided to wed the bride, the whore of babylon, and we decided to drink her cup, and guess what, the waste product of her cup is tearing apart the very atmosphere of this world that God created to such a degree, that every summer just keeps getting hotter.

You think I sound weird?

good.

I pray all who read this think I'm weird.

bartle

R
Rahman

Bro Ironman you quoted bro Ron's quote from the Revelation ...

“But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication.” (Rev 2:20-21 ASV)


Then you said;
"so true...terrifyingly true. Lord help us.AMEN"


This part of the scripture ain't the terrifying part, but is exemplary of that "extra grace" as pointed out by bro Ron, our Lord's long suffering even in the face of our willful sin ... Now (to me) here is the really "terrifying" part of the scripture;

[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

But who today really believes such harsh words spoken by Jesus over 1.900 years ago could possibly apply to us today? ... And ALL THE CHURCHES shall know ... Hmmmmm ... more news at 11!

S
sermonindex


bartle said:

I pray all who read this think I'm weird.
Not so fast, bro. Discretion is the better part of valour, we are told.

S
sermonindex

EDIT: double post, sorry.

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sermonindex

eight dead, killed in ambush by the "party of god"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292011004&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

What I believe that every Christian reading this forum, who has read the Bible, and loves the Word of God must realize that these men are the descendants of the mighty men of David, the same blood that ran thru their veins ran thru the veins of the "mighty men" who served King David in war.


2 Samuel 23:8-23

David's Mighty Men
8 These are the names of David's mighty men:
Josheb-Basshebeth, a Tahkemonite, was chief of the Three; he raised his spear against eight hundred men, whom he killed in one encounter.

9 Next to him was Eleazar son of Dodai the Ahohite. As one of the three mighty men, he was with David when they taunted the Philistines gathered at Pas Dammim for battle. Then the men of Israel retreated, 10 but he stood his ground and struck down the Philistines till his hand grew tired and froze to the sword. The LORD brought about a great victory that day. The troops returned to Eleazar, but only to strip the dead.

11 Next to him was Shammah son of Agee the Hararite. When the Philistines banded together at a place where there was a field full of lentils, Israel's troops fled from them. 12 But Shammah took his stand in the middle of the field. He defended it and struck the Philistines down, and the LORD brought about a great victory.

13 During harvest time, three of the thirty chief men came down to David at the cave of Adullam, while a band of Philistines was encamped in the Valley of Rephaim. 14 At that time David was in the stronghold, and the Philistine garrison was at Bethlehem. 15 David longed for water and said, "Oh, that someone would get me a drink of water from the well near the gate of Bethlehem!" 16 So the three mighty men broke through the Philistine lines, drew water from the well near the gate of Bethlehem and carried it back to David. But he refused to drink it; instead, he poured it out before the LORD. 17 "Far be it from me, O LORD, to do this!" he said. "Is it not the blood of men who went at the risk of their lives?" And David would not drink it.
Such were the exploits of the three mighty men.

18 Abishai the brother of Joab son of Zeruiah was chief of the Three. He raised his spear against three hundred men, whom he killed, and so he became as famous as the Three. 19 Was he not held in greater honor than the Three? He became their commander, even though he was not included among them.

20 Benaiah son of Jehoiada was a valiant fighter from Kabzeel, who performed great exploits. He struck down two of Moab's best men. He also went down into a pit on a snowy day and killed a lion. 21 And he struck down a huge Egyptian. Although the Egyptian had a spear in his hand, Benaiah went against him with a club. He snatched the spear from the Egyptian's hand and killed him with his own spear. 22 Such were the exploits of Benaiah son of Jehoiada; he too was as famous as the three mighty men. 23 He was held in greater honor than any of the Thirty, but he was not included among the Three. And David put him in charge of his bodyguard.

S
sermonindex

these men are the descendants of the mighty men of David, the same blood that ran thru their veins ran thru the veins of the "mighty men" who served King David in war.
At the risk of showing stunning ignorance, I would be grateful for some further illumination as to the sigificance you put on this? (Also, how do you know this?)

R
roadsign

bartle said,

If anyone thinks that this "modern" state of Israel is NOT of God, nor beloved of Yahweh, WOE to them.

Scriptural references to the restoration of Israel seems to refer to salvation , rest, and peace. That is not what we've seen.

It seems that the biblical prophesies about Israel's formation as a nation actually refer to the Kingdom of God - with David (Christ) as their King - through reigning in the hearts by the Spirit- ie SALVATION. The Scriptures don't seem to imply a political kingdom - which would be in harmony with the ways and teachings of Christ. This, essentially, is the glorious New Covenant Promise that the prophets forsaw and described, using all kinds of picture language.

Why would believing this imply that I love my Jewish brother less, or that I am antisemetic, or that there should be a "WOE" on me? Quite the opposite, I would think.

These verses seem to speak of a time yet to come:

8 ‘ For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,

‘ That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.

10 ‘ Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the LORD,
‘ Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the LORD, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’ Jer 30 NKJV

bartle said:

one day praise God He will gather all the tribes of Israel.
Where and who do you feel are the lost tribes?

Diane

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sermonindex

Where and who do you feel are the lost tribes

I didn't say "lost" tribes, you did.

My feeling towards my people, the Jews, is the same as that of Paul in Romans 9, "great sorrow and unceasing anguish".....I'm not going to quote the whole chapter here, but it much summarizes how I feel from the first word "I" to the last word of verse 33 "shame".

Me trying to explain to you, a female Gentile Child of Abraham and a follower of Jesus, what it means to be a male Jew saved by grace, feels about the State of Israel and its travails, and the travails of my people, would be like me trying to explain to you what wood smoke smells like, trying to describe the smell of smoke.

How do I do it?

How can I describe the smell of human flesh burning? let alone wood smoke. for in Hitler's ovens, was the genesis of the modern state of Israel.

How can I explain what this means to me as a Jew?
You wouldn't understand, and I don't mean that insultingly.

From the moment the State of Israel was created in the UN partition vote in May 1948, the Arab nations surrounding it have waged unrelenting war on it. Any Arab who deigned to suggest co-existence was killed. King Abdullah of Jordan negogiated secretly with a stout Jewish woman by the name of Golda Meir in 1950 and he was killed. Anwar Sadat made peace with Israel and he was killed.

Who does Prime Minister Olmert negogiate with now?....who can he talk peace with? the Lebanese govt?....they have no power, Hizbouallah holds the power in Lebanon supported by Syria and Iran, a curious union, considering that the Baathist Socialist party of Syria is completely secular and Iran is a theocracy. What unites them?

To see Israel wiped from the map. or "incinerated" as the Iranian president has recently been quoted as saying as to what the fate of Israel shall be.

I don't know what else to say, I must confess, that when I hear Gentile believers (and non-believers) questioning either whether the modern Israel is ordained of God, or is legitimate, that's where I bow out of any further dialogue.


bartle

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sermonindex

I don't know what else to say, I must confess, that when I hear Gentile believers (and non-believers) questioning either whether the modern Israel is ordained of God, or is legitimate, that's where I bow out of any further dialogue.
Hello bartle,

I'm sure roadsign will also respond, but I want to say this on my own behalf.... I would still like a clear answer to the question in my previous post.

And, I have no doubt that the modern state of Israel exists with God's express ordination, but, I think it is only one part of the answer which prophecy promises. God [u]will[/u] have His way, and we are either understanding His heart more and more, or, we are depending on an earthly political solution.

I am sure the Lord Jesus is intimately and inextricably bound into God's whole solution. I truly believe that with all my heart, and, that's where I feel completely 100% involved with Israel. But, I cannot get excited about Israel as a human institution, whose supporters have not been reconciled to our Father - or grafted into the true Vine.

However, I also see there is a difficult tension between these two mindsets, which it must be agonising to live with as a Jewish believer, and I honestly give due respect to that distress, although I don't feel personally involved in it either naturally, or (as yet) by God. However, it occupies more and more of my thinking and praying and will do, until I know what God would have of me with regard to it.

With regard to the information in your last post, I am grateful to understand more of your thinking. Thank you.

R
roadsign

when I hear Gentile believers (and non-believers) questioning either whether the modern Israel is ordained of God, or is legitimate, that's where I bow out of any further dialogue.

bartle, I did not say that modern day Israel was NOT ordained of God. I said that what I see does not coincide with the prophetic scriptures - which speak of a better promise – the hope of an eternal kingdom – built on the foundation of Christ – the same foundation the prophets and the apostles built – and from which they prophesied. "...saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself. Eph 2:19-22

My feeling towards my people, the Jews, is the same as that of Paul in Romans 9, "great sorrow and unceasing anguish".....
I wish not to discount the unbearable pain of seeing fellow Jews humiliated and ill-treated for so many generations, never mind what’s happening now.

Paul anguished intensely over Israel’s condition, and he was willing to even be himself cursed if that would produce redemption. Jesus himself agonized over Israel’s rebellion and the pain it would produce. He encouraged his followers to weep over their people: “Daughters, do not weep for me, weep for yourselves and for your children…”

To see Israel wiped from the map or "incinerated" as the Iranian president has recently been quoted as saying as to what the fate of Israel shall be.

Of course the Iranian president does not believe in God's sovereignty, nor does he have the heart of God. He cannot see that his bent to produce the death of the nation might very well be the precursor of its glorious resurrection. He is probably a Pharaoh ultimately, an instrument of God’s glory and mercy.

Some assorted morsels to chew (quite chewy) by Art Katz


The failure to rightly interpret the disaster of 70 AD as judgment, though prophetically forewarned by Jesus, influenced the formation of present rabbinical Judaism at Yavne which has cheated untold millions of the prospect of salvation through a faith that would have born out of the repentance which would have more likely been theirs had the calamity been rightly understood. Instead, it set in motion the inevitability of yet future disaster by condemning Jewry to becoming in the nominal Christian world an “anti-body’, an ‘indigestible’ presence, and at worst an anti-Christ factor among the nations into which they have been cast…. Little wonder Jesus wept looking upon Jerusalem.


(Scripture) says that the desolation (of Israel) is the result of violence, and the rebuilding is in keeping with the time when I cleanse you from all your iniquities,” which, in my opinion is yet future. The devastation is future, the restoration is future, and then scriptures indicates the time – “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities” Ez 36

Ezekiel continues in chapter 36, “then the nations that are left around you will know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolated. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.” Vs 36
……

“ I am often asked if now is the time to send Jews to Israel. There are any number of organizations that specialize in this, and my heart goes out to them in their well-meaning and humane concern, but I believe that with my expectation of devastation for Israel, the worse thing that you can do is to encourage Jews to go to the very vortex of violence. There is probably greater safety in their nations….

God is so jealous not to allow Israel to be an agent in its own restoration, or even in its own repentance, that even their capacity to repent is contingent upon the Spirit being poured out upon the city of David. They will never be able to boast in their own repentance.

Israel represents man in his self-sufficiency, and God has, therefore, got to demonstrate through Israel that in man is no good thing at all that He is all in all, and must be the God of their restoration as much as He the God of their judgment. God is insistent, because Israel needs to compare her previous return, the Zionist State, largely the result of her own human prowess and ability, with that which is effected by God, of His own power.

All flesh will know, both in the severity of God’s judgments and in the magnificence of his restoration and return, and the exaltation that he will grant to the nation that has now so been abased.
….
What the implications are for the present state of Israel, we leave for the reader to ponder. To hope for an amelioration of its increasingly worsening condition is, if this commentary be biblically accurate, a vain hope. Even our best well-meaning prayers are ineffectual if not in keeping with the carefully delineated statement of the divine will given in scriptures.

To spurn, therefore, the prophetic testimony of ultimate judgment before ultimate restoration is due, likely to a sanguine sentimentality concerning not only Israel but human nature itself.

So, once again, it is the issue of Israel that uniquely reveals the secret heart of the Church. This is true not only for those who reject any future for Israel, but those also who persist in expectations contrary to the revealed will of God. Both need to be broken upon the Rock of Christ Jesus, that is, upon the irrefutable centrality of the Cross, not only for the Saviour but also the nation of Israel as for ourselves whose ingrained ‘humanism’ reveals our resistance to judgment.

The alternative is to elevate to idolatry that nation whose intractable condition makes judgment inevitable, and to be offended by the God through whom it comes.


From “The Shaking of all Things that can be Shaken”, by R Kelly

There is much more to judgment than punishment. There is a sobering reminder of human vulnerability, frailty, and helplessness. Anything that weakens false security, and humbles the pride of the flesh is always a mercy, a temporal preview of eternity. …

Throughout Israel’s history, God would sometimes judge his people’s covenant neglect by raising up against them a fierce and inhumane power of a much lesser moral conscience.

What is fearful for America is the greater jealousy of God’s very love. God has a different kind of standard for people that have been the recipients of the greater blessings of truth and light. It seems that the greater divine jealousy in judgment is a sign of the greater covenant affections, as seen paradoxically in Israel’s historical judgments, and now more recently in the Holocaust…. This is… the highest affront to our frail and hopelessly humanistic perspectives.

His holy wrath will yet be revealed in the rage and hatred of demon possessed hordes that are destined to destroy two-thirds of the Jewish race… this pattern can be shown again and again. King David prays, “in wrath remember mercy.” Both are true, they are not mutually exclusive; they are true at the same time. …

The church should see the writing on the wall.

… The die is cast. We are on a collision course with Islam that reaches to the end of the age, and though I believe that the “Jack" will be momentarily stuffed back in the box, it will soon enough spring out with a fury that will take Israel and the humanistic West by tragic surprise. “for when they shall say, ‘Peace and safety’, the sudden destruction will come upon them as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.
”
Even so come quickly, Lord Jesus.”

Diane

C
Compton

...my people...

I'm not entering the conversation about the state of Israel here...just a quick question about the state of brotherhood.;-)

Do we all have a "my people" we belong to? Do I, an Irish-American descendant have a "people."? At a recent Celtic concert I attended the band members played a fiesty jig with whistles and fiddles, all shouting "Free Ireland! Free Ireland!":-)Are those my people?

Forgive me, but as someone wanting to be your brother, I'm not sure I understand the division. I'm wanting to though...

Blessings!

MC

S
sermonindex

Just like Paul in Romans 9, "my people", the Jews....I'm not implying division, but thats what I am, a Jew saved by Grace.

I don't know how else to say it.

C
Compton

Thanks much Bartle.

Just wondering bro.

MC

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sermonindex

much worse:

a speech by the president of Iran, 13 minutes long, at the end he makes an explicit nuclear threat:

http://memritv.org/default.asp#
reference clip #1216


transcript:

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: The Iranian People Is the Owner of Nuclear Technology. Talking to Iran in Language of Threats Is a Bitter Mistake.

Following are excerpts from an interview with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad , which aired on the Iranian News Channel (IRINN) on August 1, 2006.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Look, they are destroying homes with the people inside. They are burning fields. Neither children nor adults are safe from them. With laser-guided bombs, they attack shelters of defenseless women and children leaving them in a pool of their blood.

Crowd: Death to Israel.

Death to Israel.

Death to Israel.

Death to Israel.

Death to Israel.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: They have no boundaries, limits, or taboos when it comes to killing human beings. Who are they? Where did they come from? Are they human beings? "They are like cattle, nay, more misguided." A bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians. Next to them, all the criminals in the world seem righteous.

[...]

They are a bunch of Zionists. Where have they come from? As you know, the rule of hegemony and the web of colonialism strived to establish a base in the heart of the Middle East. A hundred years ago, they began to devise conspiracies on the basis of a diabolical plan. Bit by bit they arrived, and backed by the devious, deceiving Britain, they sneaked people in, and placed them in control over the people of Palestine. Sixty years ago, by means of a highly complex plan, involving psychology, politics, and propaganda, and by means of weapons, they managed to establish a false regime in the heart of the Middle East. At first they claimed: "Since some of those [Jews] lost their families in World War II, and were killed by the German government, we must give them a land." They established a regime, and placed them here. Afterwards, we saw that they did not make do with [the Jews] who presumably were harmed in the war. They gathered people from all over the world, brought them here, and turned them into the landlords. They expelled more than five million Palestinians from their homes with weapons and with oppression. They gathered people from all over the world, and imposed them here. Our question was: "If these people were harmed in Europe, why do you wish to compensate them out of the pockets of the people of Palestine, and with their honor and their land?" Then they claimed that these are people whose forefathers had lived in this land 2,500 years ago, and that they should therefore be the rulers of this land. We say to them that if we were to accept this principle, and were to apply it throughout the world, all the political borders in today's world would change.

We ask you: Who lived on the land of America 250 or 300 years ago? Don't the rulers of America today rule because of the massacre of the native Americans? If we accept the principle that anybody whose forefathers ever lived on any land 2,000 or 3,000 years ago should rule today, then America should be ruled by the native Americans who are there today. There is proof that they existed. There are films, photos, documents, maps, and their descendants.

Crowd: Death to America

Death to America

Death to America

Death to America

Death to America

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: They established a regime, aimed at threatening, trespassing, murdering, and pillaging. They established this regime so that the peoples of the region would never be tranquil. They threaten everybody. Even if a country wants to made scientific progress, they have the nerve to prevent its scientific progress under the pretext that the safety of the regime that occupied Jerusalem would be threatened by this scientific progress.

[...]

They established that regime so that it would constitute a constant threat, and would prepare the ground for the control of the rule of hegemony, and so that they would be able to impose agreements on the people. As you know, some of the countries in our region made armament deals worth more than 150 billion dollars with America and England, under the pretext of the regime that occupied Jerusalem. Since they are under America's control, they never used these weapons against the regime that occupied Jerusalem.

[...]

It is totally obvious from what is going on that this plan was made a long time ago. The Americans failed to implement their Greater Middle East policy. They thought that by attacking and occupying Lebanon, they would be able to revive the dead plan to establish a Greater Middle East. That is why they attacked. As you can see, their crimes know no limits.

I hereby declare: The world must know that America and England are accomplices to each and every one of the crimes of the regime that has occupied Jerusalem. They must be held accountable.

[...]

Look at the international organizations. We used to say that these organizations are a tool in the hands of some of the great powers, and we were told we were being pessimistic. Look at the Security Council. It was established to bring about security. But as you can see, whenever the proposal for a cease-fire is raised, the Security Council - which is responsible for security, and which should welcome the cease-fire proposal - is, unfortunately, opposed to the cease-fire proposal and to preventing the killing of women and children. I hereby declare: This behavior of the Security Council is a mark of eternal shame on the forehead of the U.N. and those who control it.

[...]

Everybody knows that this regime [Israel] can do nothing without the orders and backing of America and its intimate friend, England. That's why we have declared these two regimes are responsible for all the crimes of the insubordinate Zionist regime.

[...]

It is inconceivable that they allow themselves to make decisions to attack and totally destroy a certain country, and then, on the basis of a few agreements, they bring groups from the countries supporting this corrupt regime [Israel], and deploy them along the borders, in order to oppress the people of the region even more. They must know that those days are over. The peoples have awoken.

The Lebanese scene is like a mirror. It displays the criminal essence of the rule of hegemony and the false claims of the great powers to support human rights, freedom, and democracy. At the same time, it exhibits the oppression of the Lebanese people.

Today, the Hizbullah in Lebanon is the standard-bearer of the resistance of all the monotheistic peoples, of the seekers of justice, and of the free people. Hassan Nasrallah is shouting the loud cry of the vigilant human consciences. Today, Hizbullah stands tall as the representative of all the peoples, all the vigilant consciences, all the monotheistic people, all the seekers of justice, and all free people of the world, against the rule of hegemony. Until now, with the help of Allah, [Hizbullah] is winning, and, Allah willing, it will reach the ultimate victory in the near future.

[...]

I hereby demand that all the peoples declare their position regarding these crimes. It is inconceivable for people to play a double game in the Middle East and Lebanon. On the one hand, they maintain cooperation and economic and political ties with the Zionist criminals, and on the other hand, they wish to appear as supporters of human rights, of the oppressed, and of peace. They all must declare their position. I call upon all the governments to remove the restrictions upon their peoples. The peoples have become vigilant today, and are studying the scene with precision and awareness. The peoples are keeping record of the behavior of all the governments, the officials, and the groups. All these crimes are engraved on the hearts of the peoples. Soon, the people will begin to move, and, Allah willing, they will drag these criminals to the defendant's bench.

[...]

I declare, before all the dear people of Bojnourd, that in light of America and England's behavior, it has become clear that they don't have what it takes to participate in international forums. They don't have what it takes to sit in the Security Council, and to have a right of veto. They themselves are guilty and criminal, and they must be placed on trial.

[...]

When I see the behavior of America, England, and their other accomplices in recent days, I get the impression that they are preparing even greater crimes. I warn them: Know that the fire of the wrath of the peoples is about to erupt and overflow. If you do not put an end to your crimes, know that the ocean of the peoples will soon rage. When the peoples begin to move, they will drag everybody to the defendant's bench, and will remove them from the throne of power.

[...]

Today, the Iranian people is the owner of nuclear technology. Those who want to talk with our people should know what people they are talking to. If some believe they can keep talking to the Iranian people in the language of threats and aggressiveness, they should know that they are making a bitter mistake. If they have not realized this by now, they soon will, but then it will be too late. Then they will realize that they are facing a vigilant, proud people.

S
sermonindex

Iran Plans to Expand Nuclear Activities
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 4:05 a.m. ET

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- Iran's top nuclear negotiator said Sunday that Iran will expand uranium enrichment activities in defiance of a U.N. Security Council resolution giving the Islamic Republic until August 31 to halt nuclear activities or face the threat of political and economic sanctions.

Ali Larijani called the U.N. Security Council resolution approved Monday illegal and said Iran would not respect the deadline. ''We reject this resolution,'' he told reporters.

''We will expand nuclear activities where required. It includes all nuclear technology including the string of centrifuges,'' Larijani said, referring to the centrifuges Iran uses to enrich uranium.

He said Iran had not violated any of its obligations under the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty, and that the U.N. had no right to require it suspend enrichment.

''We won't accept suspension,'' he said.

R
roadsign

Then they will realize that they are facing a vigilant, proud people.

There is something far more dangerous than all one's military weapons. You find this weapon in the heart:

-\ta grudge
-\ta belief that God (however you perceive that) is on your side
-\ta belief that you are right
-\ta belief that you are invincible
- a belief that you will win
-\ta belief that you are the king of the castle, and everyone else is the dirty rascal

and above all:

-\tpride


This makes me think of a fast-speading train with no brakes. Nothing can stop it. This heart condition endangers not only those on the outside of the kingdom, but especially those on the inside - as seen in the Tower of Babel account. God said,

If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, than nothing they plan to do wil be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." Gen. 11:6

God will not let his name be taken in vain forever. He will ultimately display his glory. “Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord. Ez. 28:24

At some point God will create some brakes.

Diane

S
sermonindex


Diane, please don't be offended by my initial response to your post. Your comment is valid, but it is the [i]spiritual[/i] angle on the reality of this situation on the ground.

Of course, that's not [i]wrong[/i] but, only the prayerful among any people will hear God's still small voice calling them to 'come out of her' (Babylon) as stated in The Revelation of Jesus Christ to His apostle John, chapter 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, [b]Come out of her, [u]my people[/u][/b], that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Chapter 17
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.


The President of Iran said:

When I see the behavior of America, England, and their other accomplices in recent days, I get the impression that they are preparing even greater crimes. I warn them: Know that the fire of the wrath of the peoples is about to erupt and overflow. If you do not put an end to your crimes, know that [u]the ocean of the peoples[/u] will soon rage. When the peoples begin to move, they will drag everybody to the defendant's bench, and will remove them from the throne of power.
Interesting correspondence with scripture, there....


Yet YOU ARE RIGHT. People - peoples - all people and peoples - need more than they know it, to return to the living God in humble acknowledgement that human plans and solutions are futile in the face of [i][b]His will[/b] and [b]His power[/b][/i].

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said:

They [America and Britain] must know that those days are over. The peoples have awoken.
And to be honest, his assessment that a conspiracy began only sixty years ago is probably an understatement. While churches are following the lead of politicians, with non-scriptural ideologies dressed up in Christian jargon, the politicians are way ahead and well on the way to achieving their One World agenda.

Still, I take comfort - a GREAT deal of comfort - in these verses, which confirm each other tremendously.

(King James Version) Acts 3
12 And when Peter saw, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as also your rulers.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 [b]For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, every soul, which will not hear that prophet, [u]shall be destroyed from among the people[/u][/b].

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


The above testimony alluded to Deuteronomy 18 [Moses speaking]
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well [spoken that] which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


contd.

S
sermonindex


There is also Zechariah 11 - 14, which echoes uncomfortably here.


[b]Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance,

though ye once knew this,

how that the Lord, having saved the people

out of the land of Egypt, [u]afterward

destroyed them that believed not[/b][/u].


Brethren, please bear with me as I lay out a few pointers to salvation....


The Revelation of Jesus Christ to His apostle John, chapter 19:
9 And he saith unto me, Write,

Blessed they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me,

See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant,

and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:

worship God:

for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him called Faithful and True, and [u]in righteousness he doth judge and make war[/u].

12 His eyes as a flame of fire, and on his head many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [b]which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth[/b]: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


In that every generation has suspected or hoped that their would be the last, I am not trying to draw too final a conclusion by quoting the above, nor even offering a temporal frame of reference.

But, we must remember the number of times scipture uses the phrase 'and when the fulness of time was come' .....

Without doubt, God works to His own plan and the counsel of His own will. The wise fear Him and fall upon His mercies, heeding Peter's famous words 'Save YOURSELVES from this untoward [God] generation'.


Acts 2
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off - as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:


Acts 13
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us,

'I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.'

48 [b]And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: [u]and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed[/u][/b].

C
crsschk

Thought it wise to bring up Philologo's earlier reply here once again. Before that, a mention to Bartle's first inceptions here. I am very much of a mind to hold things not yet present in abayance, but that does not mean there is no paying attention to what is going on in our midst;

Mar 13:33 Take ye heed,

[b]watch[/b]

and

[b][i]pray[/i][/b]:

for ye [u]know not[/u] when the time is.

Two reasons here. Today's news and the things going on would expect more opinions to come forth. That we recognise the difference between that which we suppose and that which is the essence of our duty. What Ron has spelled out below is preciesly the remedy and the responsibility that ought to be our's irregardless of what we might think of war, 'just war', 'no war' et al. Note how none of these matters is even hinted at in what follows. Put yourselves to praying people, I beesech you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In our prayer meeting last week our thoughts turned to the current Middle East Conflict and we found ourselves praying, in accordance with the scripture, for Hamas, Hizbollah and the Taleban's leaders. 'for them' not 'against them'.

“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
(1Tim 2:1-4 KJVS)
This is the passage where Paul goes on to instruct that we pray "...without wrath and reasoning" (1Tim 2:8) Do we understand that 'wrath' disqualifies our praying? and that 'reasoning' is no help either?

What did we pray? That God would speak to the hearts of all men in authority, not just those who think they hold the moral high ground. That He would bring to them a consciousness of Himself and of eternal consequences. That He would save them from themselves and their angers... so that we (and the inhabitants of Lebanon, Gaza, Israel and Afghanistan) might lead quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and honest.

We prayed these things because 'this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour'.

~Philologos

S
sermonindex

ye know not when the time is
Isn't it precisely [i]because[/i] we don't know 'when the time is', that we are also told to [u]watch[/u]? There is an implication that those who are watching (Might 'watching' mean [i]unable to sleep[/i]?) (and praying), [u]will know[/u], and that [i]'praying'[/i] will not [i]avert[/i] anything God intends to bring to pass.... but, it may help us to be better prepared for His will.


(NKJV) 1 Thessalonians 5
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 [b]But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief[/b].

5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and [as] a helmet the hope of salvation.

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

14 [b]Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all[/b].

15 [b]See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all[/b].

16 [b]Rejoice always[/b],

17 [b]pray without ceasing[/b],

18 [b]in everything give thanks; [u]for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you[/u][/b].

19 [b]Do not quench the Spirit[/b].

20 [b]Do not despise prophecies[/b].

21 [b]Test all things; hold fast what is good[/b].

22 [b]Abstain from every form of evil[/b].

23 [b]Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b].

24 [b]He who calls you is faithful, who also [u]will[/u] do it[/b].

25 Brethren, pray for us.

26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.

27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


Apart from praying for world leaders, local leaders, church leaders and each other, I (for one) need to pray for a clear understanding of what I (do) see, and God's perspective on it all.

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