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Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?

S
sermonindex


[b]Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?[/b]

NO.

Another excuse the CCMer use to justify their "rock" is: "Hey, Martin Luther used drinking and bar tunes in his music"?

There are two major problems with this "justification":
PROBLEM ONE:

It is a LIE!

It’s amazing how many times (at least a hundred) I’ve had CCMers tell me "Martin Luther used drinking and bar tunes in his music". And it’s even more amazing what happens when asked to provide documented evidence to their accusation — it cannot be found! In the many, many times I have asked for documentation to their claim, do you know how many produced any evidence? Exactly ZERO! Why? Because it is simply not true.

Here are the documented FACTS:

"Of the melodies to Luther’s 37 chorales, 15 were composed by Luther himself, 13 came from Latin hymns of Latin service music, 4 were derived from German religious folk songs, 2 had originally been religious pilgrims’ songs, 2 are of unknown origin, and one came directly from a secular folk song." (Data compiled from Squire, pp. 446-447; Leupold, ed., Liturgy and Hymns; and Strodach, ed., Works of Martin Luther, VI)

NOTE: The one secular song was from a popular pre-Reformation (not a drinking tune!) secular song, "I Arrived from an Alien Country," and was used as the melody for the Christmas hymn, "From Heaven on High I Come to You", the first stanza Luther patterned after the folk song.
(source: Robert D. Harrell, Martin Luther, His Music, His Message, p. 18)

And here's an interesting FACT — not only that, because of it’s worldly association, Luther later changed the tune!

According to historian Paul Nettl, Luther changed the tune because:

"Luther was embarrassed to hear the tune of his Christmas hymn sung in inns and dance halls." (Paul Nettl, Luther and Music, p. 48)

After researching every published work dealing with Luther’s music, Robert Harrell says point-blank:

"None of the works dealing with Luther’s music can trace a single melody of his back to a drinking song." (Robert D. Harrell, Martin Luther, His Music, His Message, p. 34)

Harrell also says:

It seems obvious to this writer that using Luther’s music as an historical precedent for using rock and other worldly music in our churches today is completely incongruous with the facts of history.

Luther did not use the barroom songs of his day, nor did he use even the worldly music of his day. In fact, he was extremely cautious in protecting the Word of God from any admixture of worldly elements. This can be seen in his words: ‘I wish to compose sacred hymns so that the Word of God may dwell among the people also by means of songs.’"
(Robert D. Harrell, Martin Luther, His Music, His Message, p. 36)

Furthermore, Martin Luther was very concerned over the words and tunes of his music.

"But I would like to avoid any new words or the language used at court. [DTM – Is that ever contrary to the CCMers who imitate the rock world’s slang and lingo; like dcTalk’s "Jesus Freak"] In order to be understood by the people, only the simplest and the most common words should be used for singing; at the same time, however, they should be pure and apt; and further, the sense should be clear and as close as possible to the psalm."
(Martin Luther, "To George Spalatin," Letters II, p. 69)

Some of Luther’s most famous chorales are paraphrases of the Psalms, such as "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" (Psalm 46), "From Deep Distress I Cry to Thee" (Psalm 130), and "Ah, God, from Heaven Look Down" (Psalm 12).

Isn’t it amazing how TOTALLY different the TRUTH is from the CCMers LIE!

"Who changed the TRUTH of God into a LIE, . . ." (Romans 1:25)

Another person CCMer's foolishly try to "recruit" to their "wordly" side is General William Booth. To anyone familiar with the ministry and message of General William Booth, the comparison of Christian Rock to General William Booth is too funny for words. General William Booth and the "old-time" Salvation Army [not to be confused with todays' Salvation Army] carried the message of the blood of Jesus Christ through "the dangers, toils and snares". Booth and his army marched against the "wiles of the wicked one". Here's how the book Born to Battle: The Salvation Army in America begins:

"The mob numbered thousands. They hooted, screamed, spit, cursed, threw refuse and brickbats, and charged with what the press described as 'savage ferocity'."
The assaulted, marching to council in Sheffield, England, did not retaliate but continued to march forward, drums booming, flags flying, singing about the conquering Son of God. The troops were commanded by General William Booth who, despite taunts of 'Kill 'em!' and 'Down with The Salvation Army! stood riding in a open carriage with Mrs. Boothe beside him.
Bruised and bleeding, their uniforms muddied, torn and buttonless, the forces arrived at their fort shouting, 'Hallelujah'!"
(Sallie Chesham, Born to Battle: The Salvation Army in America, p.21)

Only a CCMer could compare the "wordly-carnal-men-pleasing-compromising-positive-feel-good" CCM to the "street-preaching-hated-gospel-bearer-at-any-cost" General William Booth. To show how COMPLETELY opposite from the "watered-down-partying-feel-good-positive-self-esteem" message of CCM — here's a few quotes by General Booth:

When someone told Booth to "talk about peace".
"No!" William replied, "the best preaching is damnation with the Cross in the middle!" (Ibid p. 37)

"Any profession of Jesus Christ which brings no Cross is all nonsense." (Ibid)

"I don't care how near to the bottmless pit I go in order to save mankind."

"Soul-saving music is the music for me!"

One quote of General Booths that CCMers "use" to justify their carnal-love for rock music is Booth's "If standing on my head and beating a tamborine with my toes will win a soul for Jesus, I will do it." The BIG difference between Booth and CCM is — General Booth meant it! CCMers just quote it to justify their "love" for rock music. As we have documented in several articles most CCMer's hide, disguise or refuse to even name the name of Jesus!

Would General William Booth agree with the CCMer's use of worldy rock music? Not on your life! Here's a quote from General Booth:

"May none of our musicians ever ape [copy] the skill of the world in the production of merely pretty sounds, not only disconnected with the quickening truth of God but often almost inaudible [perfect description of CCM rock] to those whose hearts they ought to stir. (Ibid, p. 188)"

Fanny Crosby, the greatest hymn writer that ever lived, would not make a very good CCMer: Here's what the greatest hymn writer that ever lived said about mixing Christian with worldy music:

"Sometimes I need to reject the music propsed for my songs because the musicians misunderstand that the Fanny Crosby who once wrote for the people in the saloons has merely changed the lyrics. Oh my no. The church must never sing it's songs to the melodies of the world." (Danny Castle, video "What's Wrong with Christian Rock")

PROBLEM TWO:

Besides being a flat-out LIE — the second problem with the "Hey, Martin Luther used drinking and bar tunes in his music" reasoning is even more serious — It goes completely against the clear teaching of the Word of God: (as does most of CCM)

One way the world justifies their "sin" is: "well, everyone else does it" or "so and so does it, so it must be alright".

Hey — "if he can do it – I can do it!"

But the Bible clearly teaches us NOT to compare "ourselves one with another".

"For we dare NOT make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
2 Cor. 10:12

After the resurrection, in John 21, Peter looked at John and asked the Lord Jesus:

"Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?"
John 21:21

Notice what the Lord Jesus told Peter:

"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."
John 21:22

The Lord Jesus told Peter, don’t worry about John — you just "follow thou me". Get your eyes off of other men — "follow thou me".

While we think a lot of Martin Luther and his role in church history, we would never "follow" Martin Luther — except where Martin followed the Lord Jesus Christ. Either for good or bad. Martin Luther is just another man, an unrighteous sinner.

Again it should be emphasized — Martin Luther did NOT use bar tunes in his music — but even if he did, that would not make it RIGHT!

We are to follow ONLY the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow ME." Matthew 16:24:

from:
http://www.av1611.org/question/cqluther.html

W
WorldView

Didn't William Boothe use bar tunes?

R
RevKerrigan

I've never heard this said of Luther or Booth. I have heard it said of Wesley though.

S
sermonindex

"Didn't Charles Wesley say 'Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music'?"
"NO".
"Then it was Martin Luther."
"NO. It wasn't Martin Luther."
"Then it must have been General William Booth."
"NO."
"Hummh … Then, it was John Newton."
"NO."
"Oh. I know. It was Isaac Watts."
"NO. It wasn't Isaac."
"Well, who said, 'Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music'?"
Larry Norman and the CCMers!

In order to justify their disobedience to the Word of God and their love for rock music, CCMers claim everyone from Martin Luther; to General William Booth; to John Newton made the infamous statement "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?".

But where did "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?" actually come from?

The "mis-quote" was taken from a message Reverend Rowland Hill, pastor of Surrey Chapel in London, preached in 1844. Reverend Hill did NOT say, "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?" — what he actually said was, "The devil should not have all the best tunes." Reverend Hill's message was not a "call" to copy or bring the "devil's" music in the church. During the time Reverend Hill preached his message, in England, church music had fallen in both quantity and quality, which is certainly not the case today. His message was a "call" for Christians to write, compose and produce quality Christian music. It was NOT an appeal for Christians to sing the "devil's" music for the Lord. (Lowell Hart, Satan's Music Exposed, pp. 169-170) (V.J. Charlesworth, Rowland Hill, p.156)

I
iansmith

Well should I stop listening to Keith Green?! Honestly speaking, he said stuff in his songs that more than 50 percent of preachers in america wouldn't stand up in front of their congregation and dare to say... so does the fact that his music is set to up-tempo piano-rock take away from the conviction of his message?
I would highly recommend reading the article he wrote about the debate he had himself with the issue:
http://lastdaysministries.com/articles/cangoduserockmusic.html

C
Combat_Chuck


iansmith wrote:
Well should I stop listening to Keith Green?! Honestly speaking, he said stuff in his songs that more than 50 percent of preachers in america wouldn't stand up in front of their congregation and dare to say... so does the fact that his music is set to up-tempo piano-rock take away from the conviction of his message?
I would highly recommend reading the article he wrote about the debate he had himself with the issue:
http://lastdaysministries.com/articles/cangoduserockmusic.html

Good article by Keith Green!

Greg what do you think of this quote from the article?

Have you ever heard the stories of how John and Charles Wesley took many of the popular "drinking songs" of their day and put Christian lyrics to them? And it didn't matter how much success they had in reaching sinners using these tunes - most of the people in the church absolutely deplored their methods!

And then the Salvation Army came along, and had the nerve to put hymns to marching music - and then proceeded to play and sing these "lewd songs" (as the traditional church of their day called them) out in the streets on Sundays! They even followed in the Wesley brothers' footsteps, taking tunes from the drunk-filled taverns, and "converting" them into worshipful choruses, or ringing appeals for people to surrender their lives to Christ! And never have there been so many "common people" converted in England than through the unorthodox efforts of those early "Salvation Soldiers."

Oh, how harmless those melodies would sound now to our grandparents' ears. But their grandparents thought that the devil himself was on the loose with music-demons!

:-? :-o

W
WorldView

I dont know if Booth made that comment, but I think he did use bar songs, but changed the lyrics.

Keith Green has bold music. More people should write songs like his. We dont need to baby people but tell them the truth, ofcourse with love. But the truth can be lovingly said in a sharp, cutting way.

H
hmmhmm

i dont know... i dont see keith greens music that much of rock.... its a little in that direction but i dont think its ungodly music.... but now days we have hevy metal roch christian bands...thats insane!!! one man said its like christian beer.... they just dont go toghter, i surfed the net i found christian gangster rap!!! just those three words toghter are a contradiction...now i used to listen to such music before i was a child of god... and i do belive there are some of the "worldly" music that would be ok.... as long as it doesent glorify the world and its sin...

my self i remember i had about 2000 songs on my computer the day before i was saved.... the next day i had none...i listend to them and whit some kind of sorrow... becuse im a big lover of music, i deleted them all... now i have some godly music and so on... but i dont listen to the same music i used to listen to... i have heard rap music whit god godly lyrics and not beats straight out of hell... i have heard up tempo rockisch music like keith greens that i belive is ok... but when it is exactly like the worlds music...when it dresses exactly as the world does... when the performer uplifts himself as the worldy music... then its of the world...i dont care about if the neme the name of jesus in there somewhere...

the question might be to some people...what is it in that music that meke you so love it that you cant stop listening to it??? how come it got such a hold of you...??? maybe we love music about jesus more that jesus himself,

just some thoughts about this.....and what are ccmers??? what does it stand for?

gods peace to you
christian

S
sermonindex

Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?

Sorry couldn't resist!

W
WorldView

I have a decent size collection of christian rock music. Probably about 20 cds, not the screaming type though, it sounds demonic. No conviction here about my Christina rock cds, nor will I allow anyone to try to heap their own religious conviction on me, if the Lord Himself has not. People get saved through it beliveve it or not. Just last month two people got saved because they never knew that Christianity had rock music and that caused them to want to know more about Christ.

Is Christianity restrained from expressing itself through upbeat music and even rap. Yes I know Christians who rap. It is a good evangelism tool as well as a ministering outlet for those who like rap. I own Christian rap and even get ministered to through it.

Though I can definitely agree that the devil is trying to dilute the message in Christian music. Is he doing that in rock and rap music, quite possibly, though I would not stereo-tpye all Christian rock and rap bands by putting them in that category. There are some whith a good message focusing on Christ, and I think that there are some that call themselves Christian bands simply because they dont have a sinful message in it although their message is not directly uplifting Christ.

I find that my favorite tpye of Christian music is worhsip and bands like Jeremy Camp, Third Day and Shawn McDonnald; people whos message is clear (Christ) and well sung in an understandable and catchy way.

by the way, none of this was geared towards hmmhmm, I agree with his points. People do worship music and I have been recently ministering to someone I know who has this problem.

I used to love to listen to music also owning over 2,000 songs. I still have the songs, seeing as they are all Christian bands. Though over the past few months I have come to the place where I rarely listen to music. And when I do, it is usually not the rock type. Not that it is bad, but that it doesn't minister to me like other forms do.

F
freedbyjc

CCMer = Writer/performer of Contemporary Christian Music

IMHO-Its not the rhyme nor the meter of the music ... its the content of the Word.

Bibles are printed in thousands of different languages and translations..some are revered, some are reviled. All are 'translations' of the Word of God. It all comes down to your relationship with Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit's to empower your discernment as to the methodology of your strenghtening your wisdom of the Will of God.

If its scripturally correct, I will listen to all any kind of Christian music. I sing hymns, Praise and Worship and Southern Gospel.

It matters not if I speak English or Swahili or Afrikanns, or listen to Rock, Rap or SKA, if the music that I listen to feeds my spirit and that emboldens and empowers me to speak of Christ to those who do not know it then I MAKE IT my personal hymn of Praise to the one who created us.

There IS some bad music out there ... just as there are some bad churches and leaders. Our relationship with Christ will give us the discernment to judge the content and to use it to nourish my spirit and to give Praise and Glory to God.

T
Tears_of_joy

Hi WorldView,

Have you heard one of these life changing messages by [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?op=&cid=144]Keith Daniel[/url]:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4224]The Power of Prayer (video)[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1865]Finished with the world[/url]

There are very good testemonies about the music.

God bless you brother.
Kire

M
myfirstLove

some of you say you will listen to any kind of christian music if its according to truth, but do you realize that most christian bands are using the money their making off of their music to live worldly. they say their music is from God and that their using their God given talents to bring others to Christ. if they say that this is from God, then they shouldn't charge or spend the money they get filling their flesh, but use most of it to sow back into the kingdom.

this is similiar to someone calling themself a prophet and charging people for prophecies. wouldn't you be upset about that? then why support many bands who do that? did david charge saul?

it is so obviouse that most christian bands are so full of themselves, love the praise of men, love popularity, love to be seen. taking the focus off of God with their stylish clothes, glamor concerts, christian videos, t-shirts, calendars, dove awards, posters of themself. those people at the dove awards received their rewards already! totally using the name of God to give themselves fame! and a lot of chritians are feeding christian performer's flesh by supporting their music!

heavy metal, punk, ska just seem like a no brainer. come on, all that screaming, wearing heavy metal and punk clothes is drawing too much attention to themselves. where's the meekness in that?

someone can sing songs according to the word, but if their lifestyle don't match i wouldn't touch their stuff. your helping to support their ego. supporting something that God is disgusted with. glory belongs only to God!

the devil knows God's word too! oh, how he uses it so deceitful!


where's the jelousy for God's name?! christian worship music have gotten way out of hand. most christian music is godless and full of vanity. why do christian bands want to hold a concert just like the world? charging people for their music? wanting to be on stage? dress like the rock world? making christian videos? because its all about ME!

Oh, God help us! for many christians call what is holy, evil and evil, holy.

P
PaulWest

Brethren,

Please allow me to share some pages out of David Wilkerson's book "Set the Trumpet to Thy Mouth." In it, he addresses the topic of contemporary music in the house of God:

"Borrowed music is Satan's calculated attempt to pollute the worship of Almighty God. Satan will go to any extreme to pollute the worship directed to the Lord so that it will be rejected. He simply adds another spirit and mixes in a lie, knowing God will reject it. God must, and always does, reject all worship that is not born of the Holy Spirit and that is not all of truth. And even if the music inspires the performers and listeners, it does not get beyond the ceiling - because God won't touch it. He abhors it."

"It amazes me that such a great multitude of young men and women - including young ministers - are so infatuated with rock music. They've been raised on it. In every other area of their life, the Lord is in full control. They are dedicated, pure in every other way - but they cling to this one idol. Just one thing stands between them and God's very best. They'll give up TV, sports, illicit sex, overeating, and all other kinds of idols - but don't dare trod on their music! I cringe when I hear parents and ministers say, "Don't judge." They say that each generation has its own style of music. And they do sing about Jesus, so it must be all right. What incredible spiritual blindness! We have come to the place that anything is acceptable, as long as it "gets results." If the music of devils gets kids up front to make a decision, it is acceptable. Most of these youth have not been touched beyond their emotions. The Holy Spirit has not probed deeply to deal with sin."

"One of the reasons God's Spirit was lifted from the Jesus Movement was their refusal to forsake their old music. They gave up pot, herion, alcohol, promiscious sex - but they refused to give up their beloved rock. Amazing! I say its hold is stronger than drugs, alcohol, or tobacco. It is the biggest mass addiction in the world's history. My only concern is, what does God think about rock? If we can discover his mind on this matter, then all Christ-loving youth must accept it; and if they won't, it will prove they are stubborn, deceived by lying spirits, and not willing to submit to the Holy Spirit's authority."

"The Holy Spirit revealed to me four truths that I believe fully manifest his attitude about rock music and all other kids of worldly music in His house:

1. Out of which womb was the music born?

Was rock music born in the womb of a Spirit-filled musician? Whatever is wicked and evil is divorced from God upon its inception (Psalm 58:3). Rock music was born in the womb of darkness and rebellion. There is a new generation today that has no contact with the roots of rock; it was before their time. Had they seen how it was born, with all the drugs, dropping out, rebellion, and devil worship - they may have had a better understanding of what I mean by its "womb." When it was first born and broke on the scene years ago, every Spirit-filled lover of Christ discerned it was a transgression. When Elvis Presley made his debut, I fell on my face before God and wept. How can anyone who adores Jesus Christ take an evil child, born of evil seed, of an evil womb, and make it a servant to Him? What kind of fruit does Rock and Roll produce? Godliness and purity? A hunger and thirst for Christ? A broken and a contrite heart? Conviction for sin? Be honest! According to God's Word, all seeds bear after their own kind (Gen. 1:12). When the Beatles, the original rockers, mocked Jesus Christ and glorified drugs in their music, what kind of fruit was that? When 400,000 youth gathered at Woodstock, staying high for three whole days on rock and pot, and going forth to a decade of violence, what kind of fruit was that? From its inception, Rock has produced nothing but evil fruit. Rock has dry breasts and can give health and life to no one.

2. God will not accept a blemished sacrifice.

What does this have to do with worldly music in the church? I hear sincere Christians say, "Satan doesn't own music! Music belongs to God. The music doesn't matter as long as the words are right." Dead wrong! The devil owns all muic that is ungodly and evil. And Satan had all the right words when he tempted Christ. The Israelites dancing around the golden calf had all the right words too - were they not singing, "This is the god that brought us out of Egypt"? Same people, same music, same words - but their god had changed. Rock music was born with more than a particular sound; it was conceived by a spirit, and it continues to be activated by that same spirit that gave birth to it. I do not know of a single true worshipper of the Lord Jesus Christ who desires to offer worldly music as an offering to a holy God. I've noticed that musicians at Christian concerts seldom perform rock just before the message and invitation. It is not conducive to conviction of any kind because it is of another spirit. If it is of God, why not use it before the invitation? Why not a ripping rock segment just before the sermonette? No, the worldy music is reserved for the ENTERTAINMENT part of the concerts, to the accompanying of fleshy whistles, shouting, and grooving. It doesn't inspire them to kneel and pray, or to even bow their heads in worship. There is notone ounce of conviction in it - God refuses to touch it. I don't care who borrows music from the devil's womb - including the ancient church fathers - God will not accept a sacrifice that was taken from the devil's altars and placed on Christ's sacred altar. There is a vast difference between borrowing a tune and borrowing a style of music. Rock is more than music - it is a lifestyle. Why should we give the Lord the devil's hand-me-downs? Why not original, pure music for the King of Kings?

3. God has prescribed boundaries for worship.

This generation is bored of "speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Eph. 5:19). Hymns? Spiritual songs? Sweet melodies? Not if a new breed of musicians have their way. They actually laugh at Paul's description of good, Christ-exalting music described here in Ephesians. God says to this generation: "You have rejected the holy hymns, the sweet melodies, the sanctified sounds of joy and pure gladness. You detested the music of your fathers who worshipped in purity. It was your disdaining pride of all that was old. You want the miracles of the book of Acts, but not the purity of the fathers. You recoiled from the music born of the spirit and embraced the music of the world."

4. God is looking for overcomers who will search out the old paths and find the right way.

But they said, "We will not walk therein" (Jer. 6:16). Not that the old songs and hymns should be used exclusively - but they should not be cast aside and replaced with anything light and shallow. I am weary of rock advocates telling me that worldy music gets results. This has been a Roman Catholic argument for centuries, as they justify their missionaries who mix pagan worship and traditions with their gospel. It does not produce heart changes! You can't feed poison to babies without disaster. Pure and impure water can not flow out of the same fountain, and holy and unholy music can not pour out of a clean heart. A person may only listen to majestic hymns and melodious psalms, but if the heart and ears are not pure before God, he or she may as well be listening to the wildest punk rock in the land. I have also observed that performers and groups that feature worldly music have no ringing testimony of holiness and separation from the world. Many still drink, especially wine and beer. Some are sexually promiscious. The more worldly the music, the harder the rock, the more compromised they are. I can listen to their music and tell in the spirit immediately what their secret lives are like. What kind of music will we be singing as we go out to meet Him? Will it be a shout of victory and holiness and joy - or will it be an echo from some heathen beer tavern? I am singing songs right now that I will be singing then - to a music that wil not be strange over there. It is a simple song of adoration and worship to my holy and precious Savior."

- Taken from David Wilkerson's "Set the Trumpet to Thy Mouth."

I agree 100%


I
iansmith

I've just been considering what Leonard Ravenhill would say about this topic.
Leonard Ravenhill took both David Wilkerson (the author of the content of the last post) and Keith Green (a zealous CCM artist) under his wing as their spiritual shepherd...
He recounted in an interview [which is widely available on this site] just how different they were to him... but he didn't hint that either's ministry was any better than the other's.
How could someone like Leonard Ravenhill support Keith Green (a CCM artist at the time) and David Wilkerson equally?
I believe that Ravenhill was an excellent judge of character, he clearly saw Keith as someone with a zealous love for Jesus... whom used his gift of music to bring Him glory and bring sometimes painful truth to His children.

Are some people involved in CCM doing so for the wrong motives… yes! Absolutely there are people involved that are doing it for the money, or for self glory. Some are probably doing it just to put food on the table. These are definitely grieving the Holy Spirit.
Does that mean everyone involved in CCM is wicked and Satan led? Absolutely not! It would be just as easy to consider Christian Publishing a wicked extension of satanic materialism as CCM. How many Christian ‘self-help’ books distort the word of God into feel-good easy-believism. How many bible translations are done just to line someone’s wallet? Have you seen the cost of bible software for the PC? Have you looked through the trash that gets stamped with a dove and fish and sold for twice what it would retail for at ‘hot-topic’ in the mall?!
Surely some books, bibles, PC-software and Christian products have been made with the right intentions, but for every one that was there are probably 20 that were made with money or recognition in mind. Should we condemn everyone for the actions of others?

The greatest thing about being a Christian is that for all the bickering we do about who’s right with Christ and who’s not, we don’t have to answer for anyone else at the judgment seat except ourselves. To some people CCM is like eating Meat sacrificed to idols… their intentions are true, unfortunately there are others who would abuse that freedom and create stumbling blocks for others… But unless you’re in a relationship with that person where you can correct them personally you should reserve your judgment! You can’t simply judge a whole group of people for the abuses of a few… Only God can do that! And don’t doubt that he will.

Aside from our complaints about the latest Christian music… we should be grateful, if not grieving in sackcloth that to this day God has found 10 Righteous men in this country (The USA) that it hasn’t been crushed like Sodom.

J
JFEdgar

Arent we missing the point of what "Worldly" really means!?

If worldly meant to be in any way like the world, then what would that imply for the Christian? It would not just touch the style of music we listen to. Why do you work? Doesnt most of the world do that? Arent you worldly if you go to a job every day? Is your hair anything like the world's? Arent there thousands if not millions in the world with a hairstyle just like yours? What about your clothes? How many people in the world do you "imitate" with your clothes? Dont millions of men and women wear long pants, shirts and dresses? How about the internet, radio, driving a car, using a telephone. How many of you use cell phones? That is All The Rage in the world today. Oh, you are oh-so-worldly you who use that cell phone everyday.

Come on. Why dont we try to stop beating these teachings into the ground with our intellects and open our hearts to what Jesus really wants.

What is worldliness? It is having the same attitude towards these things as the world. Do you love ANY music style like the world does? Do you value it above God? Is it a God to you? This is what the world does with rock music. To some, I agree, Christian Rock is a God. To some, no doubt, hymns are also a God.

The same goes for a job. Do you work to feed yourself or your family? Then you are no different than the world. Jesus said "Labor not for the meat that perishes" (jn 6). Why do you go to work everyday? Do you go to work for money? Then you are in sin. Do you go to work because you know that is where God wants you? This is His will. If you work for any other reason, you are worldly! It is your attitude and motive.

Your hairstyle and clothes. Is it because these look like many people in the world that makes it worldly? Certainly not! For then, Jesus was very worldly in his day! According to this line of thought, Paul promoted worldliness! But this, ofcourse, is not the case. It is your attitude toward these things. Do you love your hairstyle, do you love clothes? Do you love the way you look? This is vanity, and this is worldliness.

Internet, radio, driving a car using a cell phone. These are all useful tools that the world LOVES! Are you worldly because you use these things too? Ofcourse not. Why do you use these things? Do you love them because they are cool? Do you love them because they cause you to fit in? Do you spend lots of money on having the coolest gadget? This is worldliness. Do you use them because they are useful tools when submitted to God? This is God's heart for His people.

Lets start being honest with ourselves. Lets stop formulating opinions on EVERYTHING, and instead, really listen to the heart of God. This is the difference between legalism and walking in the Spirit. Legalism is not an issue of how many laws you have, but having any laws at all. The christian is FREE from the law. The Christian has no law. He has no opinons, no ideas, no thoughts, no principles to live by. All He has is a heart submitted to God every minute. It is far easier to have a set of laws to follow, but it is a sad excuse in place of what we are called to. We are called to have a surrendered heart. Lets please, stop beating every issue into the ground, and start listening and submitting ourselves to God. He doesnt care about your opinions. He cares about your soul.

Submit yourself to God. Yes, this will mean that you will obey everything in the word of God. It also means you will go way beyond that! The word of God may not tell you to kiss your wife, or hug your mom, or do the dishes for a friend, but the Spirit might! If all you have are principles and laws which you so proudly live by, then you will miss out on obeying God! Listen to His voice every minute. Give up your law, give up yourself, give up your opinions and analizations of every little verse in the bible and begin to obey Him in love!

J
JFEdgar

I want to make it clear that in my last post I was not promoting a relativistic do-anything-as-long-as-you-have-the-right-motives type of mentality. This is, of course, wrong. You cannot clearly disobey God and claim to be doing it with a right motive. I am speaking strictly of what worldliness is and is not.

S
sermonindex

A dear brother just emailed me this note with a pdf of the Salvation army stance on music:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/pdf/SAUseOfTunes.pdf]https://www.sermonindex.net/pdf/SAUseOfTunes.pdf[/url]

Greg:

I am attaching a pdf file that shows two pages (p. 206 and 207) from Orders and Regulations for Field Officers, 1901 edition, by General Booth and published by the Salvation Army. I think you will find it very interesting . . . the goal was to find tunes that were easy to remember – likely to become “ear worms” – not tunes that would attract a particular audience. This does not quite match up with the modern theory that we should play music to please an audience.

Mac

M
myfirstLove

i didn't say all musicians are satan lead. i said most. the prophets surely didn't have a relationship with all of isreal to speak God's word. you can look at christian music as a whole and see it is full of wickedness. just like you can look at american curches as a whole and see that there is much wickedness. so its o.k. to expose the church of their lukewarmness and harlotry, but not christian musicians? we cry out to warn others of the hypocrisy and wickedness of many american churches, but we can't do that with christian music?! why? because music is a big idol to many people. touch their entertainment and you'll surely get it.

i said nothing about keith green. i like his music. he doesn't water down the word at all. he wouldn't sign autographs and because of that many fans got mad. he spent most of his money toward the kingdom of God. helping many homeless people. he not only preach the word thru his music, but he lived it! you don't find many musicians like keith green.


this is what keith green says:

"I repent of ever having recorded one single song, and ever having performed one concert,[u] if my music, and more importantly, my life[/u] has not provoked you into Godly jealousy or to sell out more completely to Jesus!"

so is the music your listening to and the artists behind the music, is their life provoking you into godly jelousy and their music encouraging you to sell out more completely to Jesus?

have you been to many youth services playing christain rock music? many christian rock music seem to be leading many profess christian to worldliness, far from the cross. when you see stuff like that in church how can you not be grieved at such things. much of christian music plays a big part in many youths lives and causing them to stray from the narrow path and leading them to the wide road of destruction. its because of todays leaders that allow such harlotry in the church! it doesn't take a super spiritual person to see that much of christian music is all about ME, full of vanity.

K
KingJimmy

Keith Green's music is very much a pop-piano. Musically speaking, Keith Green sounds like Elton John. But for Green it was never about the musical style. It was about the message behind the music, not the music itself, that mattered.

H
hmmhmm

for me its like this... i close my eyes ... i see jesus on the throne in all of his glory...around my milions of people angels all about to sing praises to him..... what kind of song would fit there? i dont belive that some hard rock christian song would be the one.... or a gangsta rap christian song... they can be good for witnessing and spread the gospel to people who would never heard it before...but i hope you understand my point... becuse all of our songs...arent they supose to be to him? not for our emotional experience?

gods peace to you

K
KingJimmy

It's amazing in all these debates on music and such you will see all sorts of "God told me" type arguments (e.g. David Wilkerson), yet, you won't find one ounce of the word of God that actually condemns things like Christian rock.

People need to heavily read through Romans 14 really bad and get some real biblical discernment:

Rom 14:20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense

Some of you are foolishy tearing down the work of God "for the sake of food." In this instance our "food" is music. Paul says indeed, all things are clean? And why? Because all things are created by God, and God declared all things that he created to be good. Musical style varies from culture to culture, from generation to generation. Musical style in and of itself is nothing more than mere sound!!! And sound was created by God!

The only differences in styles of music are the instruments used to create the wide variety of sounds and the speed and durations for which they are played. And often the only differences between styles such as the holy "southern gospel" and "christian rock" is simply a difference of speed. Both styles use almost identical instruments!

Of course, one can pervert music and use it either for righteousness or unrighteousness. But styles in and of themsleves, biblically speaking, are all the same. All are good.

I have been to several southern gospel christian concerts, and have been to a few contemporary, and even a christian rock concerts. Frankly, I have seen more "wordliness" at the southern gospel christian concerts (especially those put on by Bill Gaither and gang!) than I have at Christian rock. Frankly, there are some pretty powerful Christian rock songs, and I will say I have been greatly blessed by the likes of Third Day and Casting Crowns.

Let us open our eyes and love one another! Ultimately what matters is are all things being done unto edification and the building up of one in the faith.

K
KingJimmy

Also, there is a Kirk Franklin CD that my fiance owns that I have borrowed and personally been blessed by it. I'm not really a big fan of rap to begin with. However, I have found several of his Christian rap songs extremely edifying, and extremely worshipful.

Also, Israel & New Breed's live CD is a bit "international" in its musical scope, taking music from all over the world and incorporating it into their unique musical style. They have some pretty powerful stuff. I've cried out to God from the depths of my soul as I ministered unto the Lord with their music. Good stuff.

I
iansmith


have you been to many youth services playing christain rock music? many christian rock music seem to be leading many profess christian to worldliness, far from the cross. when you see stuff like that in church how can you not be grieved at such things. much of christian music plays a big part in many youths lives and causing them to stray from the narrow path and leading them to the wide road of destruction. its because of todays leaders that allow such harlotry in the church! it doesn't take a super spiritual person to see that much of christian music is all about ME, full of vanity.

This is probably the wrong forum to play 'the devil's advocate'... but please hear me out. I have been using Keith Green as an example for a clear purpose... by the standards of 2006, 30 years after he made his first record Keith Green is considered pretty tame. But if we look at what people were saying about him at the time he was regarded as a heretic, leading youth like a pied piper into the fiery pits of hell. This is just not the case, but it was a case of perception by the church establishment at the time.

Mercy Me, Third Day etc... How are they different... well a lot of ways, they are not as overtly critical of the church establishment. The only recent group I can remember that really had a stormy time with the church was DC Talk, but that fizzled out. Mostly they're preaching a one sided gospel, they're preaching Dietrich Boenhoffer's Cheap Grace, easy-believism... but get this, SO IS THE REST OF THE CHURCH. CCM is just a mirror of the church in general, we have watered down the gospel to fill up the pews! We've taken sanctification and sacrifice and traded it for the world!

Don't blame CCM for the problems in the church youth group, blame the parents and church leaders! If someone is properly taught the gospel, not just cheap grace then no amount of Christian Rock is going to change his mind! The problem with today's youth is today's churches! When Christian youth see that their parents are just as materialistic, just as driven by popular culture and worldly appetites, when their parents are more likely to pick up the sports page first thing in the morning than the word of God... The hypocrisy in the home is the root of the problems with youth.

I was blessed that I was not raised in a Christian home; my parents are firmly entrenched in the self seeking American dream camp. But you know, that doesn't faze me! Working with the youth at my church is far more discouraging, here are kids who have been fed the truths of the bibles all their lives, but they haven't seen them lived out at home! That’s a tragedy!

You say that its today's church leaders that are allowing this kind of music to be played in church that is leading people to the wide road... you've missed the forest for the trees! The root of the problem isn't a few musicians, although they are a product of it, the root of the problem is decades of Cheap Grace being preached in American churches... without any room for Sanctification!

All you need to do is pick up some Ravenhill, KP Yohannan or even Charles Finney to know this is the problem. I've been reading Charles Finney's fine work compiled in a book called 'The Promise of the Spirit' which I purchased for under three dollars... he talks about how the Christians brought to Christ in his generation struggled with the same thing... all the teaching was focused on Justification and none on Sanctification!

Paraphrasing Leonard Ravenhill, Justification is Jesus on the Cross; Sanctification is the Christian on the Cross! The church in America is happy to leave Christ hanging there and sing and enjoy the easy life... this generation has yet to see Christians en mass getting onto the cross... that is the fundamental problem, CCM is a symptom of the problem. Fighting the symptoms of a sickness is only a temporary answer!

S
sermonindex

What is wrong with singing about Jesus to rock? It sounds like most of today's modern musical genres are upsetting to most people that have commented here. But do you really expect kids and teenagers of our day come into church or listen to Christian music that involves just a choir and an organ? I don't think so.

If you chat to or hear the guys that are in Christian bands of, say, rock or metal, they are just normal guys that like heavy music. They want to sing about Jesus, they want to sing about God and they want to reach people that like what they like.

One of my favourite bands, Norma Jean, are a hardcore Christian band. And they do scream, oh yes they do. But they are not angry, they are passionate. They are not murderous, they are godly men. I have heard some stuff that Christian rockers have said to be better than what most preachers preach in our watered-down pulpits today!

Says Tim McTague of Underoath:

"I believe that we, as 'Christians', have lost sight of what Christ intended our lives to be and the purpose and faith he gave his life to teach us. As long as we give our 39 cents a day and make it to church on Wednesday and Sunday, we're all good.the American way.the new 'Christianity'. Whatever happened to the church of Acts where people would sell all they had and give to the poor and join a body of thousands of people, living a life of prayer, community and servanthood? We now sit, 2,000 years later, in our comfortable homes and Lexuses and mega-church youth groups watching the rest of the world rot away and starve to death. Where is Christ in our watered down, self-serving hybrid of faith and hypocrisy.the new 'Christianity'? God exists to pay our mortgages and heal our families, but, when it comes time to sacrifice something of our own, we look away. We're too concerned with church attendance and having the biggest building in town to see that we're wasting our days and God's money for our own comfort and well-being. The answer to our world's issues isn't charity drives and new taxes and Republican parties.but, rather, a complete renewal of thinking. Loving people as you would want to be loved, clothing the cold, feeding the hungry and housing the homeless - not at God's expense but our own - giving all we have in order to shine the light of Christ and live a life that counts.

"Somewhere along the way, we decided that being a Christian wasn't a life of serving but a life of being served. I can't change anything with 400 words.but you can change the world. God is real and is waiting for a few real Christians to step up and let him work through them the way he worked through the disciples. But it will cost everything."

Now I am not saying that hardcore music should be sung in all of our churches in order to reach this generation, but this thread seems to be leaning towards saying that most of todays Christian bands are twisting the gospel. Who are we to say which genre is godly and which isn't? Who are we to judge who has the right motives and who has the wrong ones? Who are we to judge other peoples' spirituality?

I don't like the term 'CCmers' that this thread has been using. It is too much of a generalisation. How can you place all 1000s of today's Christian bands into one group and judge them for being ungodly? Who are we to judge? God judges people because He is perfect; He is entitled to judge! But I refuse to believe that nay of us are perfect. I speak to myself aswell as everyone else, because I realise that sometimes I am swift to judge and it is something I am working on cutting out of my life.

I know many people that have been drawn to bow the knee at the foot of the cross because of 'CCMers.' And yes, there will be rogue bands that do fit what you are saying, but to tell-off, as it were, all of them and class them all as CCmers I think is wrong.

'Contemporary Christian Music' does not mean: wordly sinners drawing men and women to hell. It does not mean: we are going to bring worldliness into the church. CCM is a generalisation of a few bands that do these things. Most of them simply want to serve God and bring people to Christ.

W
WorldView

I've enjoyed reading many of the replies.

Good posts.

T
Tears_of_joy

Hi dear richard,

You said:

It sounds like most of today's modern musical genres are upsetting to most people that have commented here.

One of the problems is that modern musical genres, and especially those who are entering the church, just upsetting us. If these things don't grieve us to tears and driven us to our knees, we will continue to reap the fruits that we are witnesses of. It is so sad...
I'm so far from america all that musical 'christian' industry and I cannot imagine how it is if you are in the middle of it. We should cry with brokeness over the lost youth [u]in[/u] the churches who want to be entertained.
Many of the things are well explained in the featured sermon by Paul Washer.

I hope that we will remove from our hearts every ugly thing and every unbeautiful thing and every dead thing and every unholy thing that might prevent us from worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ in the beauty of holiness. Now I am quite sure that this kind of thing is not popular. The world does not want to hear it and the half-saved churches of the evangelical fold do not want to hear it. They want to be entertained while they are edified. Entertain me and edify me without pain.
-A.W.Tozer

The tragic results of this spirit are all about us: shallow loves, hollow religious philosophies, the preponderance of the element of fun in gospel meetings, the glorification of men, trust in religious externalities, quasi-religious fellowships, salesmanship methods, the mistaking of dynamic personality for the power of the Spirit. These and such as these are the symptoms of an evil disease, a deep and serious malady of the soul.
-A.W.Tozer

IN OUR DAY WE MUST BE DRAMATIC ABOUT EVERYTHING. We don’t want God to work unless He can make a theatrical production of it. We want Him to come dressed in costumes with a beard and with a staff. We want Him to play a part according to our ideas. Some of us even demand that He provide a colorful setting and fireworks as well!
-A.W.Tozer

The old writers talked about the dark night of the soul. A time of emptying. A time when it became dark all around us. But we’re too carnal to allow our hearts to get dark longing for God now. We’re so determined we want to be happy that if we can’t be happy by the Holy Ghost we’ll drum up our happiness. Religious “Rock and Rollers”! We’re going to get happy somehow if we’ve got to beat it up with a tom-tom. You can have that kind of happiness if you want it, but if you don’t want it and are dissatisfied with it and you want the joy that comes out of Joseph’s new tomb open now forever, if you want the joy that comes from the Holy Ghost, a well of water springing up within you forever, then you will likely have a loneliness and an inner darkness and a despair with self and you’ll wonder what happened to you and you’ll say, “Am I backslidding?” No, you’re not backsliding. You are going on with God.
-A.W.Tozer

T
Tears_of_joy

iansmith said:

CCM is just a mirror of the church in general, we have watered down the gospel to fill up the pews! We've taken sanctification and sacrifice and traded it for the world!

Don't blame CCM for the problems in the church youth group, blame the parents and church leaders! If someone is properly taught the gospel, not just cheap grace then no amount of Christian Rock is going to change his mind! The problem with today's youth is today's churches! When Christian youth see that their parents are just as materialistic, just as driven by popular culture and worldly appetites, when their parents are more likely to pick up the sports page first thing in the morning than the word of God... The hypocrisy in the home is the root of the problems with youth.

oh, brother, I'm totally agree with you!

You say that its today's church leaders that are allowing this kind of music to be played in church that is leading people to the wide road... you've missed the forest for the trees! The root of the problem isn't a few musicians, although they are a product of it, the root of the problem is decades of Cheap Grace being preached in American churches... without any room for Sanctification!

Yes!

Anyone who needs to be chucked under the chin all the time to keep him happy and satisfied is in bad shape spiritually. He can ignore the fact that the Bible urges us to go on unto perfection for he is of that part of the church that cannot be satisfied without a visit from the latest gospel peddler, who promises cowbells, a musical handsaw and a lot of other novelties!
-A.W.Tozer

We have the breezy, self-confident Christians with little affinity for Christ and His cross. [b]We have the joy-bell boys that can bounce out there and look as much like a game show host as possible. Yet, they are doing it for Jesus’ sake?! The hypocrites! They’re not doing it for Jesus’ sake at all; they are doing it in their own carnal flesh and are using the church as a theater because they haven’t yet reached the place where the legitimate theater would take them. [/b]
-A.W.Tozer

T
Tears_of_joy

One of my favourite bands, Norma Jean, are a hardcore Christian band. And they do scream, oh yes they do. But they are not angry, they are passionate. They are not murderous, they are godly men.

dear richard, I just read the [b]biography[/b] of this band.

[b]Axl Rose once sang, "Nice boys don't play rock 'n' roll." Apparently, he's never met Norma Jean.[/b] While the band's peers have been busy buying their way onto Ozzfest (and Axl was working on that Chinese Democracy thing), these Atlanta, Georgia, natives have spent the last five years on the road, relentlessly playing basements and ballrooms, expanding their uniquely organic fan base with each show they play. With their second proper full-length, O' God, The Aftermath, all that work is about to come to a head-but in case you're just tuning in, here's the CliffsNotes version of the Norma Jean story.

Recorded by Matt Bayles (Isis, Botch,Mastodon) at Stone Gossard's Studio Litho, O' God, The Aftermath doesn't just push the band's personal limitations (which it does); it also pushes the limits of heavy music, period. "A lot of bands say 'we've progressed..." But the thing about these guys is they really did progress as musicians and artists, "a direct result of over two and a half years of touring while having only released one record" explains the most recent addition to the group, singer Cory Brandan who, along with guitarists Scottie Henry and Chris Day, bassist Jake Schultz and drummer Daniel Davison, make up the current incarnation of Norma Jean. "[With O' God], we wanted to do something that was musically challenging and artistically balanced", he adds. "Anyone who's expecting [2002's] Bless The Martyr And Kiss The Child is probably not going to get very much of that."

Although the aforementioned Martyr has scanned over 58,000 copies, this is actually a good thing. From the math-metal madness of "Muderotica" to the mesmerizing melodicism (wait, is that singing?) of "Bayonetwork" to the alternately ambient and aggressive ten-minute opus "Disconnetcktie," O' God, [b]The Aftermath spans the chaotic cannon of heavy music from Pantera to Poison The Well to Pelican and is as cerebral and obscure comparative to musical giants Tool.[/b] But, more importantly, it has as many stylistic shifts as it does time changes, refusing to fall back on hardcore's clichéd song
structures and stabbed in-the-back lyrical motifs.

And the band's heady ambition doesn't apply solely toward the music. O God's thematic lyrics, song titles and artful aesthetics are all open to interpretation-even the album's seemingly bleak title isn't necessarily what it appears to be. "A lot of people think the word 'aftermath' has a negative connotation, but I look at it as more of a positive thing; a pleasant aftermath, you could say," explains band drummer Davison. "It's looking at it from a spiritual standpoint; the aftermath of grace or salvation."

[b]Oh, and then there are the live shows. Combining motion pictures, smoke machines and an epilepsy-inducing light show, the band insist their current world tour with Atreyu and Unearth is their most over-the top yet. "We're artists and we want to pursue our vision of art, but we're also entertainers and we want people to come to our shows and have fun," explains Brandan. It's worked; countless bands who've sold more records can't pack the kids in night after night the way Norma Jean do.[/b]

But getting back to that Axl Rose quote, while Norma Jean obviously take their music seriously, these nice boys refuse to take themselves too seriously, be it via lighting off fireworks in their van, starting small fires or, most recently, getting the word 'BBQ' tattooed on their lips with arrows pointing toward their mouths. "I've been in other bands and you always say stuff [like], "Yeah, let's do this! That'll be funny," Brandan explains. The thing about Norma Jean is that they'll actually go do it.

[b]Welcome to the jungle, baby.[/b]


Lord help us!

Religious entertainment has so corrupted the Church of Christ that millions don’t know that it’s a heresy. Millions of evangelicals throughout the world have devoted themselves to religious entertainment. They don’t know that it’s as much heresy as the counting of beads or the splashing of holy water or something else. To expose this, of course, raises a storm of angry protest among the people.
-A.W.Tozer

Because we are not truly worshipers, we spend a lot of time in the churches just spinning our wheels, burning the gasoline, making a noise but not getting anywhere.
-A.W.Tozer

One man wrote an article as an exposé of me. He said that I claimed that religious entertainment was wrong and he said, ”Don’t you know that every time you sing a hymn, it’s entertainment?”
Every time you sing a hymn? I don’t know how that fellow ever finds his way home at night. He ought to have a seeing eye dog and a man with a white cane to take him home!
-A.W.Tozer

When you raise your eyes to God and sing, ”Break thou the bread of life, dear Lord, to me,” is that entertainment—or is it worship? Isn’t there a difference between worship and entertainment? The church that can’t worship must be entertained. And men who can’t lead a church to worship must provide the entertainment. That is why we have the great evangelical heresy here today—the heresy of religious entertainment.
-A.W.Tozer

H
hmmhmm

well here will always be many people on both sides here...they who says its ok..they who dont think its ok... i belive there is no such thing as christian hard rock.... if there is it wont be long soon we will have christian beers... and soon some other crasy thing.
just becuse you stamp "jesus" on something dont make it holy. If you listening to this kind music makes you separate you more and more from the world and making you more and more holy and christlike, then thats good... but i know many of the enemies of christ such as for example this "manson" guy that plays this devilich music.... there are christan songs that sound the same just that they name the name jesus... its of the DEVIL!!!! and if you were to listen whit an open heart to the sermons by keith daniel earlier in this thread then you might be able to give up this for christ sake.

if heven plays that kind of music.... i dont think so i cant se paul and the apostles sitting there and enjoying christian hardcore rock screaming and shouting... do i belive only old hymns to be ok? no probably many many sorts of music that i dont personaly like is ok... but were do we as christians draw the line...can a unsaved person see a difference in our walk whit god in what music we listen to? there should be a difference if you compare what a follower of christ listen to..and a unsaved person listen to...

if it sounds like the world
if it looks like the world
if it talks like the world
if it walks like the world

it probably is of the world


gods peace to you
christian

R
roadsign

I come at this topic from the view point of a musician who performs and teaches people to be musicians.

But styles in and of themsleves, biblically speaking, are all the same. All are good.
This perception is a tad simplistic. Music is not performed in a vacuum. There are times when some styles just are not appropriate for the venue. Ex: You do not play rock in a senior’s home service.

I hate to say it, but I have often seen eager musicians play what THEY like, without considering their audience. They look disconnected with their audience, they sound disconnected. Their polished style is like a “sounding gong” because it lacks love.

And, I also hate to say, but there is lots of music done with a bad style. Discernment is needed in music just as much as in any art or craft. Ex every homebuilder knows that there is cheep trim and there is beautiful, quality trim made from good wood.

there are some pretty powerful Christian rock songs, and I will say I have been greatly blessed
me too. I enjoy good rock. Sadly most of what I hear over the radio is a cheep version of it.

On a sadder not, it has been said, that if a musician can't make it into the secular industry, he joins the Christian industry. I hope it's not true, for we as believers should be holding up a standard of excellence - contrary to the worldly trends of cheep imitation.

I hate the distinction between “Christian’ and “secular” - as if one is right and one is wrong. Music is good or bad, well done or poorly done. I recently attended two musical shows, one Christian and one secular. Both had a grand piano on a moveable platform. The big difference was the performer. In the Christian show the pianist was overly flashy, and drew attention to herself by her exuberant and inappropriate antics. The pianist in the secular show was much more subdued. He was actually a more skilful pianist. You could enjoy his music far better because he did not “get in the way”. He had a more humble attitude towards his skill.

The only differences in styles of music are the instruments used to create the wide variety of sounds and the speed and durations for which they are played.

This is true, yet there is far more to music than just these distinctions. And any of the components could be done inappropriately or sloppily.

Unfortunately, what makes music “godly” and not “godly” often becomes a matter of personal taste – rather than discernment. They say, “You listen to what you like and you like what you listen to.” And you don’t know there may be anything else.

Now back to Luther:
Even if Luther did use bar tunes, we can’t assume that they were on the hit parade. (there wasn’t any then) We haven’t a clue how those tunes were perceived in the society at large. Luther was a gifted person who could tell what a good melody line was.

Any tune can be presented in countless ways. Ex: How may ways have you hear Amazing Grace performed? Have you heard it done by big band, jazz, a symphony, a harmonica, bag-pipes, male quartet black choir? Or only by a dreary tired congregation accompanied by a pianist who can’t keep a beat? – Get the drift? Your views are affected by your experience.

Diane

R
roadsign

Now an entirely different issue:

I’ve been a church/community musician for years, and through my observations have come to believe that even the most Christianized music can become a subtle form of temptation. The real sin may have little to do with style of music, lyrics, writer, or publisher. It has to do with our own faulty desires. Christian music can become just as idolatrous as the worldliest of music. Although our use of this wonderful music may look and feel very righteous and holy, it might be leading us down the wrong path – away from our Lord. Music can become an appealing substitute to God.

Luther and many others used hymns as a venue for teaching the truths of Scriptures, faith, hope, and personal walk with God. That doesn’t mean we need to use them all the time, just be aware that motive for song writing can vary.


Contrary to what many believe, music is NOT the path to God. You will not find that anywhere in Scripture. Music was usually an expression of what was in the heart. And it is shared with others for encouragement and edification. Admittedly, it may also give one a very wonderful ecstatic experience. It may stir up a nostalgic pleasure – through association with past experiences of blessings. Nothing wrong with that in itself. Yet…

When music is the medium to save souls, and invoke the Spirit, people seem to require that same music all the time to feel like they are having a “relationship” with God. Music, in this case, is given a god-like power. Church leaders must be aware of this. Music can be given too much emphasis.

CCM is just a mirror of the church in general,… CCM is a symptom of the problem. Fighting the symptoms of a sickness is only a temporary answer!

Ouch! You hit the nail on the head. Very insightful! You look deeper.

What grieves me is that there has been so much magnificent godly music written through the centuries - then and now – but churches typically sticks to a very small margin of style. There is a lot of great contemporary music that never hits our churches because CCM doesn’t publish it.



The answer to our world's issues isn't charity drives and new taxes and Republican parties.but, rather, a complete renewal of thinking.
And this, naturally, will affect our music.

Somewhere along the way, we decided that being a Christian wasn't a life of serving but a life of being served

I think this is reflected in the change from music being something that you make yourself - along with all the hard work, discipline, sweat, and humble cooperation with fellow musicians, to something that entertains you simply by a push of a button.

Diane

S
sermonindex

quote:

'Just becuse you stamp "jesus" on something dont make it holy. If you listening to this kind music makes you separate you more and more from the world and making you more and more holy and christlike, then thats good... but i know many of the enemies of christ such as for example this "manson" guy that plays this devilich music.... there are christan songs that sound the same just that they name the name jesus... its of the DEVIL!!!! and if you were to listen whit an open heart to the sermons by keith daniel earlier in this thread then you might be able to give up this for christ sake.'

You cannot base a solid conclusion simply on the way the music in question sounds. You have to go deeper. We can only know if it is godly or not if we know the motives behind the music. And you find motives by looking at the heart. And only God knows everyones' heart.

quote:

'...and if you were to listen with an open heart to the sermons by keith daniel earlier in this thread then you might be able to give this up for Christ's sake.'

Please don't judge me. I do listen to sermons with an open heart, I do try to get application out of it, I do try and live for Jesus. I try and that is the truth. So please don't assume that because of my personal convictions I don't care about God. I really do. And I try my hardest to live all out for Him. You cannot assume that my heart is closed to sermons. It isn't.

R
roadsign

And they do scream,

This may be great for now, but it won't be long before they have no voice.

You cannot base a solid conclusion simply on the way the music in question sounds.

Likewise you can't look at the trim on the wall, and try to assess the carpenter's spiritual condition. Yet Integrity aught to be a Christian virtue. I'd prefer quality trim made by an atheist whose work expresses integrity in the skill rather than cheep trim made by a Christian company. Sorry! Should it be any different in music.

They say a real musician can tell the difference between a good and a bad sound. Not all who play instruments have musical discernment. There are those who do not play anything or sing, yet have good discernment. It's something you learn. And that takes a lot of time and humility.

Christians ideally should be humble enough to know their limitatins. Just because they stamped "Jesus" on themselves doesn't mean their music is good.

I take that to heart, as I have at times become sloppy, just because my audience (ex church) doen't expect much. I have often had to repent of bad attitudes, and then dig in and practise, and do it properly - and expect excellence of those I teach and lead.

Diane

S
sermonindex

Indeed. I'm suprised some of those vocalists can go through hours of gigs and still have a voice!

R
roadsign

I'm suprised some of those vocalists can go through hours of gigs and still have a voice!

Just wait a few years.... they will be "has-beens".. ...hoarse... have nodes on their voice-boxes...
Diane

T
Tears_of_joy

We can only know if it is godly or not if we know the motives behind the music. And you find motives by looking at the heart. And only God knows everyones' heart.

richard, you can see the fruits, they are all around us, just see the christian youth.
even it's not about music it's about the lifestyle, it's about the gospel they preach, it's about shows, entertaimnent accompanied these performers.

there is no holy living.
just open the sites of the most of today 'christian' stars. posters, videos, concerts and good shows. what's that?
it should grieve us.

H
hmmhmm

quote

You cannot base a solid conclusion simply on the way the music in question sounds. You have to go deeper. We can only know if it is godly or not if we know the motives behind the music. And you find motives by looking at the heart. And only God knows everyones' heart.

well you have a point in that .. it is our motives, but we cant really trust our hearts when it comes to music...we cant trust our hearts whit our salvation

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

and when i recomend a sermon to you its
not for you to go ok ill listen and i must do as he says...no i just hope that you will pray and if god shows you things to you thrue the holy spirit and makes you closer to christ then its good... i dont meen you should be closer to sermons then christ..but a sermon can bring you closer to christ if you let the holy spirit show you some truths.

and about motives...i dont know.. its tricky to say it always have to be like that one cant really say its the motive that justify the music... maybe this is a bad example but i just want to illustrate the problem by thinking like that... if a man would rape a woman claming he had the right motives that dont make it right... if someone kills another man that dont make it right even if he thought he had right motives to do so... i know thease may not be the greatest examples...but just becuse we think our motiives are right...doesent make it right.. i can have all the wrong motives in the world and still be doing wrong things!!! when ive have been in arguments whit people ive for a long tima been thinking ohh im right and my motives make it right and therefore its right i dont care what anyone says.... can i still be wrong? yes!!
i have been many times im sure we all have sometime in our lives...i dont wanna judge anyone here nomatter what you listen to... thats your buissnes, but i will warn you in love and say -hey that might be something thats not ok whit that..and do search your heart whit help from the holy spirit thrue a sermon and prayer... i wouldent say anything to anyone unless ive been there myself... i will give you my advice and i will tell you that when i stopped listening to sertain music it blessed me and made me a little bit more free from the world and brought me closer to christ..

im just trying to say to people there are many dangerous things out there from the devil...if he can he will decive even the elect...

and brother i will give you this advice...i dont know if you meen exactly what you write but i say this in love you wrote
quote
I do try to get application out of it, I do try and live for Jesus. I try and that is the truth.

dont TRY and live for jesus... LIVE for him...

ill will pray over this and hope god will show us all what is the narrow way here in this matter

gods peace to you christian

T
Tears_of_joy

I'm quoting a brother from this forum:

[b]Night and day on my knees[/b]

"Ravenhill said “Jesus is standing at the door of the church knocking, but quickly moves on”. When I first came to Washington DC I was disturbed over the modern music brought into the church. I had lived in western PA; all we had were old hymn books. In our home Dad always would tell us to turn off that junk (modern music). But that was over 10 years ago. We have now brought into the church multimedia. Tozer said “If you have the Bible and the Holy Spirit that is all you need.” The multimedia has introduced Mickey Mouse entertainment into the church. It’s good, it’s fun, its lively entertainment, but it not the best. The prescence of the Holy One of Israel is the best. E.M.Bounds said with entertainment prayer is unwelcome.

I find it almost impossible to pray in today’s churches, with all the noise who can think. Oh, how we are branded as negative if we complain. The old timers used to always complain about our youthful music, now they seem to love it. Why was it that the Quakers wouldn’t allow music? Tozer talked about people trying to project their personalities in the church, and the display of amateurism, people who couldn’t make it professionally.

I say that God is knocking at the church door and no one can hear it because of all the noise. The Holy One is now thundering at our nation and no one hears it. Jeremiah pleaded with Israel and Judah but none could hear. Surely Gods wrath is burning against our modern nations.

Ravenhill said “people don’t want revival because they are happy the way things are.” But if we continue to let Satan have his way he will show his true control of these nations and unleash a reign of terror that will bring the end of time.

Surely Beelzebub reigns here, what perversion, what lust, emptiness, loneliness. People walking about saying everything is well, yet walks in grave clothes on their way to hell. I see no spirituality at all. The Holy One is greatly withdrawn, his anger is very fierce. We need a fiery visitation form Jesus to save us from hell. “When are we going to get serious about being serious” Ravenhill.

Satan has taken over the church of the world with his legions. The spirituality of the church is absolutely gone. The multimedia music has stunningly brought Walt Disney entertainment in. But why not, people are so caught up in TV entertainment. I will not adhere to it, but give an emphatic NO! Oh how we must fight and pray! So many are going to hell! We must pray, rise early, get alone with God. Jesus’ honor is a stake; I will not dishonor him by prayerlessness. I will not be blinded but will look to Jesus at all cost.

I will worship the lord Jesus.
Night and day on my knees I will go.
Onward to victory,
In Christ Jesus our lord.

Night and day on my knees .
Night and day on my knees."

I encourage to read all thread:[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=939&forum=40&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0]Night and day on my knees[/url]

P
PaulWest

Saints, I apologise for the length of this post but this is a very intersting article. It offers a unique persepective on the roles of the different styles of music we use as vehicles to enter into the presence of God during our corporate worship times. The author (Messianic recording artist Merla Watson) draws a parallel with the second temple courts. Pleae read this, as it is extremely profound, and you will be very blessed:


"As I have studied the Inner and the Outer Court of the Second Temple, the Lord has given me a clue. I can remember a few years ago at one of the Christian artists' seminars, there was a big conflict between the Rock Musicians and the Classical Musicians. They argued about who had the music from God and who didn't. I believe the Lord has shown me that He can use all types of music. He can use Jazz, He can use Rock, He can use Country Style, He can use Folk Music, He can also use Classical Music and He can use New and Contemporary Music, but we must examine where they are supposed to be. There is a place for each - a definite place - but the trouble is that we have mixed them up.

Let's look at the Inner Court as to what it was. The Outer Court was the largest area or the Plaza of the Second Temple Structure. It was the place of commerce - the place of popularity. It was crowded. There was confusion there, but it is where the sacrifices were boiled.

What was the Inner Court? It was the smallest of areas. Ezekiel 10, verses 3-5 tells us that the Cherubims dwelt there. There was not the same sense of popularity and commerce there. There was a sense of Heaven. It was not open, it was enclosed. It was private. It was holy and the blood was on the door-posts. Now the Outer Court looked North and the Inner Court looked East and it is interesting that outside the Inner Court there was a chamber of singers at the North side, facing the Altar of Sacrifice (a profound study in itself!). When did the Outer Court function? It was open all the time. It is like the Scripture verse, "Whosoever will come", or, "Behold I set before you an open door". The Inner Court was only open at special times. The gate was shut all week, except at the Sabbath and the New Moons on the Feast Days. The Outer Court, who was there? The Gentile proselytes to Judaism. It was the Court of the Gentiles. The sense of the world was here. Horizontal relationships formed between people. It was the most popular place. Everybody could see what was going on. Here you had the outcasts and the eunuchs. Here you even had Cornelius, who was the first convert to Christianity. Now notice who was in the Inner Court; the prepared Priests. There was no access to the public - it was private. They wore Holy linen because there should not be any sweat from their garments and they were not wine drinkers. Here we see a vertical relationship with the living God. The Cherubim dwelt there.

Why was there an Outer Court? Because this was an outreach to the Gentiles. It was the prophetic inclusion of us now. It was open -a wonderful place to be - but contrasted with that, the Inner Court was a very mysterious place; there you had the Ark of the Covenant and the Seven Branch Candlestick, the Menorah. What was the Outer Court like? The atmosphere was one of busy-ness and popularity and reaching out. It was a whole different climate from the Inner Court, because there it was filled with the Glory of the living God. God spoke there and there was order.

Now we get to worship. The Outer Court, as I see it, is where we perform music that identifies with the masses. If I am going to go down and minister in the "red light" district, I understand that I am not going to sing a hymn or use classical music, because they would not understand that. You use different bait for different fish. What are they familiar with? Jazz, Rock, Country Style, and that is where it belongs. It is where the evangelism is and it is nothing to look down on - God calls people to be evangelists and to use their music in that way. The tunes have to be catchy, the taste is from the world. It can be very entertaining and it can be casual - it has a world vision to it. We use songs that say, "Jesus is the Lord" - we put it in the third person. We show people that we are acquainted with Jesus. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the whole world believed in Him? Order is not very important there. We praise the Lord in that area, saying God is my Healer, God is my Deliverer, He's my Friend, He's my Guide, He’s my Saviour, bringing good news to people who have not heard these things. Jesus always knew how to touch that sore spot when He was evangelising. He did not come in to evangelise with a kind of High Priest attitude. He came down with the people - He became as one with them. Now one has to be careful if one is called to the ministry of worship in the Outer Court for there are alien spirits which can influence the situation there and also suck you in to its lifestyle. You need to be careful to take intercessors with you.

Now in Inner Court worship, I don't believe that Jazz belongs, I do not believe that Rock belongs, or Country Style. What belongs? Classical and Folk Style feel comfortable here interspersed throughout the service. We ask God for a NEW song too. It is not supposed to be like anything else. You might argue that Rock music can have Christian words, but unfortunately you can very seldom hear the words. People hear the music and the beat before they hear the words. It has its place, a wonderful place, but we profane the Sanctuary if we bring it into our worship in the Holy Place. Profanity really means to make common like everything else. This does not mean that worship in the Inner Court cannot be lively. It will be lively sometimes, and sometimes solemn, but it will also be consecrated, and dedicated unto the Lord. Now God has "winked" at these styles because there have been a lot of people with very pure hearts who love the Lord very much, but who have not had this revelation. Their place is as evangelists. When it comes to the Sanctuary (I cannot emphasise this enough) the music MUST NOT SOUND LIKE THE WORLD.

I would say that 98% of all Christian music that is listened to on tapes is Outer Court music. The Inner Court music is meant to bless God and to edify and build up His people. It is a very special solitary place. In the Outer Court we sing songs about "He is Lord", "He is the healer", in the third person, but in the Inner Court we sing "YOU are Lord", "YOU are my healer", it is direct and that is the difference. We must not take our cue from the world in the Inner Court. In fact if we play or sing something like the world then we will know that we are in the Outer Court. Perhaps we are stepping on toes here, and there will be people who will say, "I just don't agree with that" or they will say, "But I don't like the other music". But I want to tell you, that it does not depend on your taste. Worship to the living God may not be your choice at first, but you can come to appreciate it by practice, and you will come to appreciate its order and its beauty. It stands by itself, and it is not afraid to be lonely! It might even have more ritual to it. Don't be afraid of liturgy or ritual - it is all through Scripture.

Sometimes charismatics have become so free as to dump out the baby with the bathwater. If anything, we should be more poetic than we have ever been. Why is it that the world has the best art? It shouldn't. Why does it have the best poetry? It shouldn't. We are supposed to be in touch with the Holy Spirit and He is the most creative force in the Godhead.

Now where does the Outer Court worship occur? Not in the Church, except for youth meetings, or adult gatherings which are not on worship days. It is for outdoor and indoor rallies, for schools, for theatres, public places. But the Inner Court worship is for Bible Studies, in the privacy of your own devotional room, in any worship area where we are coming into the presence of the living God - it is a church sanctuary. The very word "sanctuary" denotes a place of refuge from the noise of the world. A Holy Place for a Holy purpose and not for outreach to the world. Outer Court worship can happen any time; it is for whosoever, whensoever, wheresoever. But Inner Court worship is for an appointed time. When you enter God's House, you don't come just any way. If Jesus were there in all His Royal Splendour, you would not rush up in a pair of shorts or blue jeans, chewing gum, and say, "Hi!". What kind of mental picture do we have of the Lord? He is the King of Kings and when He is in our midst we show respect. We have lost some of that respect in the charismatic renewal. We can say anything, and we can look like anything - it does not seem to matter any more. But as I read Scripture, I see that the Glory of the Latter House shall be greater than the Glory of the Former House. If you look at the Former, it had a tremendous amount of ritual! I mean, every little detail was spelled out. We are going to see this now more so. Now the Lord has set us free - now it is time to "trim those bushes". When a child has a new toy he experiments with it for a while until his parents give him directions on what to do with it.

It is wonderful to be free in the Holy Spirit, but we must not be afraid of order and beauty. Try singing some of those grand hymns of the earlier centuries, good music, good poetry, good theology. Use one or two in each worship session. Put new life into them. In the Inner Court the worship becomes the most precious to the Lord and to us. Often it is through our trials and testings that this worship come. There are times when you can't tell another living person, but you can pour it out to the Lord in worship. Have you had times of sweet fellowship like that? He understands and He knows. Out of that might come a new song to the Lord, when we share all sorts of victories because of Him.

In the Outer Court the person ministering in music must be suited to evangelism. It is not enough to just have the ability to play a guitar and sing a few songs which is fine for, say, a Bible Study. Different people are equipped for different ministries and we must be sensitive to where they go. We need people for the Outer Court, but we also need people who are properly trained and sensitively prepared for the Inner Court. In the Inner Court itself there are different ministries. There are those who are suited to small intimate situations with a dozen or so people, and others who are suited to larger gatherings. Different people can minister in different ways and will be out of place in areas for which they are not intended to minister. A person who has a big vision and who can lead a large celebration in worship may not be sensitive to the situation in a small cell group, for example. Conversely, a worship leader in a cell group will not have the flambuoyance needed for a mammoth setting. Besides this, those who lead in ministry in one way need to be led by others in other circumstances. Leaders of large celebrations need others to lead them in worship in cell groups to which they also belong, and vice versa.

I believe that God wants gifted and trained anointed leaders for the Inner Court. We start from where we are, but the Lord's highest is for those who are anointed also to be trained, otherwise sooner or later they run out of ideas on a technical level. Sometimes people ask me, "When did the Holy Spirit teach you to play the violin?" I don't want to be upspiritual, but I have been learning to play since I was four years old and I have had a lot of lessons and have been a professional since mid-teens, but the Holy Spirit also helps me with anointing, sensitivity and creativity. I have the craft and the techniques, so that I can apply them to give variety and richness, instead of being limited. If I am a singer and I am going to lead people in worship, then I should humble myself and take a few lessons. You have to know how to breathe, for example, and you have to know how to pronounce words, otherwise, sooner or later, you will get hoarse and unable to sing. Even professional singers get laryngitis sometimes, but if we were not trained then we would get it all the time. If you are a dancer (and there are a lot of people who want to dance before the Lord) you must be trained if you are to minister in public and out of the privacy of your own room, otherwise you will be limited to about three basic moves which will look rather silly when repeated over and over. A dancer - a real dancer - is a dancer from the scalp right down to the shoes, and every inflexion of even the fingers means something. If I had to choose between someone who is anointed and someone who is trained, I would choose the anointed person, but for God's highest we should be both anointed and trained. David said, "Play skilfully". You can't play skilfully unless you have had lessons.

Very often we discover musicians whom we are supposed to work with who are unprepared. Recently I turned to a bass player in a group who was to play with us. He said, "I can't read music, so there's no use putting music on my stand." I turned to the piano player who said, "I only play by ear. " The guitarist said, "I can't read music - just hum the song and we'll get it." Of course, as usual, there were no solo instruments. I didn't know whether I should faint or go into a rage, because I believe that God has His trained people out there. It is the same with the preacher and teacher - we don't want to listen to unprepared spontaneous waffle.

There is a characteristic of people who lead in the Inner Court. Often, they are both lonely and broken people. My husband and I are getting to the place where, unless there is broken-ness in worship and in teaching then we "switch off". However much we love God's signs and wonders, we don't look for them; we look for the presence of the living God. We are not looking for triumphalism, or for the evangelist who gets thousands of people to come forward because of the exciting things that he says. We are fed by the "little people", the people that God speaks to. That is our meat and drink.

In the Outer Court there is a wonderful chance to meet the unchurched - they will not come to Church, so we must go out to where they are and we must identify with them. That is why we try to find a common denominator. Usually we find those people with a tremendous love for mankind and for God's Word. God has two basic commands - "Go” and "Come". "Go out into all the world", but what does it mean to "Come"? It means to come into His presence to bless Him, to be obedient to Him, to bring a sacrifice of praise, to be one with the Lord, to invite the Holy Spirit to cleanse and permeate our lives. You know, the strangest things happen, the closer we get to Him -He reveals how dirty we are compared with His radiance, to His holiness. But. He picks us up, He loves us and waits for our obedience - the highest form of worship!

Now we should consider the difference between the Greek kind of worship and the Jewish kind of worship. What do we mean by Greek worship? I think that the charismatic movement is entertaining this. It is style conscious. Observe this in praise leaders as they adopt various poses, mannerisms and formulae. Use that outside, but if royalty came into your presence, you would be flat on your face before Him, you would be singing the most beautiful song that you could possibly think of. All the beautiful things that He means to you would be sung. You would honour Him and would not blush.

Surely He is considering most of our worship and, though He sees our hearts, He would say, "I don't like that, you can do better and it does not honour me." We are made in God's image - He is not made in our image. There is a difference. What is your mental picture of the Lord Jesus? He is not just your buddy: He is King of Kings! No unclean thing can dwell in His presence, including worship which is handled improperly. Whereas the Greek is style conscious, the Jewish way is not afraid to be different. It is not afraid to just ask the Lord for the song. I have made it a top priority not to listen to Gospel music, not because I think I am such a "hot shot" (I am still trying to learn from the Lord) but I could imitate very fast and I don't want to do that. I want Jesus to give me something new and I don't care if nobody sings it and I don't care if nobody likes it. I am singing it just for Him and I want Him to love it because He has given it to me. When I do this, others also are moved, but this is not my motivation to please anyone but God!

Greek is often intellectual. The Hebraic is intellectual also, but in a natural way. Sometimes I think we could use a much better form of language than we do in our worship. One time I was leafing through one of those song books that corresponds with the praise tapes. The first one said "Thou art worthy", the second said,"You are worthy", the third said, "Worthy, worthy", the fourth said, "Worthy art Thou". What has happened to our language? Why can't we say something a little more creative? Do you know, I was told by one of those big companies, "We don't want your music. First of all it has more than one verse. Second, it has language more difficult than that of a grade school young boy, and we don't want that. Thirdly, we don't want any poetry." His parting words were, "When it comes down to the fine point, what sells, goes!" So we shook hands and left. I don't want to be part of that mentality, because when the Lord does something with you He also anoints your mind making you far more expressive. So many times someone rushes up to me and says, "Look at this song God gave me." Every time I get excited because I think perhaps this time I will have a nice surprise. I say, "Well, where is it?" “It’s in my head.” "Well can you write it up?”"No, I don't know how “OK, then I'll write it out for you.” And I listen to it and there is nothing new! "Jesus died upon the tree. Twiddle dee, twiddle dee." Nothing new! But He said "Sing a new song"!

The Hebraic also appeals to the soul. Do you know why so many Christians get into trouble one way or another? It is because the soul is starved. There are so few of us who do anything else except beat a path from the house to the Church door. We don't do any sports. We don't go to a good concert or to an art gallery. If we go to a place where there are not Christians we sit in a little corner and talk just to Christians, or we sit quietly and pray that the Lord will open up the conversation so that we can witness. We have nothing to say to them. We don't read the paper. We don't know what is going on. I don't think that is fair. We should be informed people, who do have a "say" on many matters!

The Greek has form but it is a worship of the formula, for example, "These are the four spiritual laws", "This is the way you accept the Lord", "This is the way you worship". We say in the charismatic renewal that we don't have form - Oh yes we do! We do have rituals. You try not "singing in the spirit" once! You try being quiet for three minutes without a prophecy! We have our own little hidden rituals. But with the Biblical/Hebraic we are to worship the Lord with a fervent honest spirit. There is no pretence, while in the Greek you often find religious spirits. This is in the charismatic renewal. You will see this in prophesying and singing - an emotionalism which is related to some other spirit which is not God's Spirit - music that is sentimental fluff. Religious spirits love worship. They worship the worship! It feels good to be in a Church like this. I have found, for example, that with homosexuals, they love the charismatic renewal because it makes them feel good. It cloaks the sin. How many people raise their arms to praise the Lord while underneath there is not a Godly life? Nobody knows the difference from what we see them doing, but the Lord wants honesty. He doesn't mind repetition, but when it becomes ineffectual, it is not of Him. Sometimes when we get up to worship the Lord spontaneously we go into vain repetitions and no more, repeating, "Halleluljah", "We worship you Lord", or, Jesus" - we say no more. Where is the creativity to say something beautiful to the Lord? And why do we stay on one note? Everybody has got at least eight and there is no such thing as being tone deaf! That is something you heard when you were a child and believed it and accepted it. So it would be wonderful if we could hear a rich musical praise to God for the things He has done for us. I am sure He would say, "Isn't that wonderful? - they're singing something new and my heart is so delighted". It will take a new fresh initiative. Often our worship is rootless. We say, "We belong to the New Testament Church". Who on earth wants to belong to the New Testament Church with all its problems? I belong to the whole faith, going back to Abraham and Isaac! I've swallowed the whole pill.

The Greek is sometimes very gullible. We believe everything that we see or hear. In fact someone might come and teach one thing one week, and then someone else may teach the opposite the next week and we believe them both! The Greek is also very seductive. There is a move within the charismatic renewal that has its own music, which other musicians agree with me that there is something seductive in it. There is constant repetition and a mood that is created which seems beautiful but is not good - almost a hypnosis. This is another spirit at work, which is not God's Spirit. We need to be able to discern this and to know our Scriptures to find out what is right and what is wrong. The hard bit is the grey area somewhere in the middle, but we must reject this too. The Lord is saying that there is a definite line between what is pure and what is impure. There is a wooing of the Holy Spirit - the greatest romance that there has ever been in history - but it is nothing to do with seduction!

On the Greek side we want to please man - "I wonder how 'he' liked the music tonight. Did you watch how he got into it?" We should not be asking that. We should say, "Lord, is that what You wanted tonight? Did that please You? Was there anything that I did which was the wrong thing? Too much or too little or not sensitive? Please show me because I am doing this for You." That is when you please God, and when you please Him you are not always going to please everyone else. We have made a lot of enemies because of this, but we have also made some discerning friends!

The music on the one side is Outer Court, of the Greek, and popular. It must be popular. For the Inner Court I have to say, 'Lord, I don't want that. I want something fresh that you give." I love it when somebody says, "It doesn't sound like anything I know." Praise the Lord! You don't want it to sound like anything you know. You want it to be from God's heart. We must assess the music that we are using and test if it is Outer or Inner Court. A pastor recently telephoned me to say that he was convinced that, in his congregation, they had nothing but Outer Court worship! When we discover this, then we must change. We must be doers of the Word as well as hearers. If you have a mixture of both Outer and Inner Court worship, it is almost as bad as having all Outer Court. We must pray that the Lord will raise up anointed, talented and trained vessels to take their place in the Body of Christ for Inner Court ministry.

This past Summer I saw one of the most beautiful things I have ever witnessed. We were in Germany and were invited to a retreat of professional symphony players, all born again and baptised in the Holy Spirit. I expected to see about a dozen people, but there were seventy of them, all with a tremendous love for Israel. The first meeting coincided with the time when there was a terrible bus explosion in Israel. They stood up and suddenly all began to play prayer - all of them -Cello, French Horn, Flute, Oboe, everything. I thought I was in Heaven! It was the most beautiful thing, and they all ministered to one another - they ministered with their instruments. A lot of the ministry was on account of the rejection that they have felt in their Churches, because they have been told that they must not play with the praise group, who are using electronic keyboards and other electronic instruments. It seems very vogue to just press the "flute" button on the synthesizer rather than use the real flute player in the congregation. It is claimed that God is requesting this kind of music now, whereas these gifted musicians who have played their instruments from childhood cannot use them in the Churches. While there is a place for electronic instruments, it is not right that they replace the true instruments when talented and anointed musicians are available. It does not make sense that the synthetic is the most Godly thing. Classical music is considered "too high-brow".

Maybe in your Church you just have Inner Court. I would like to visit that Church, because I have not found one yet, not with pure Inner court - and we have travelled to 50 countries for almost 30 years and ministered in thousands of different churches. That is our challenge, to allow this teaching to come out in expression so it becomes honest, so it is not rootless, it is founded, it is pure, that it is serious, that it is good, that it is righteous, that it is gifted, that it is every good thing. This is what God is jealous for.

In closing, permit me to say how thrilled I am as not only a Christian professional musician but as a music minister that I have been given this opportunity to express my findings on this topic. But more than this, I am exhilarated with the fact that this thinking coincides perfectly with the final precious move of God - the restoration of our Jewish roots as believers."

(Reprinted from Tishrei Vol 4 No 2, Son of Man/Son of God, Spring 1996)

M
myfirstLove

some of you are totally missing it.

kingjimmy, the word rock is not in the bible because it didn't exist back then. but the word flesh is. and it is so obviouse that many rock bands is full of flesh, this includes 3rd day. have you been to a 3rd day concert? if you can't see that most rock band screams out its all about ME, then i can't go on and speak to you guys. you aren't ready to see truth in this area.

iansmith, i agree we can't blame musicians for the lukewarm churches. the leaders don't preach the true gospel , but most musicians don't either so they are not helping, but feeding into the lukewarm gospel.

if you read my posts, its not that i'm putting the style of the music down, but more exposing the motive. look at the way they dress, put out videos, their lifestyle, their homes, their speech, their concerts, their dove awards. it is just sooo obviouse that many are using God's name to glorify themselves! this is sick!

and if the youth are wanting to be christians just for rock music and desire to go to a church for the good rock music then they are going for the wrong reasons and i would question their salvation. most youth are going to church to be entertained. thats the problem!

i just don't understand why this is sooo hard to see. maybe because music is an idol to so many christians.

H
hmmhmm

quote
Also, there is a Kirk Franklin CD that my fiance owns that I have borrowed and personally been blessed by it. I'm not really a big fan of rap to begin with. However, I have found several of his Christian rap songs extremely edifying, and extremely worshipful.

i saw him on a very famous american tv program i dont waych that program but i saw this man there and i watched what he had to say..and if i remember correctly he said he was for so many years addicted to pornografy...he used to get up on stage and sing and do his thing and then back to his hotel room and watch dirty movies... and the problem whit this he said was that the kind of people that were his fans... he did not once mention that the problem was that he sined against god...the problem was what his record buyers would think of him now... he said he had confesed this thing and had overcome this sin now, i thank god he did, and i hope he is right whit god. But sadly as i remember it his main problem was what people would think of him...not what god was thinking of him...

i do belive christian rap can be good for spreading the gospel... so can christian rock... and others... but we need to be careful

when ccmers qoute william booth like that...i wonder what he would say if he were alive?.. do you think he would go up and join them singing?
im havent read so much by william booth but the little i have, makes me doubt that he would.

still the thing that conserns me is what is that make people so hang on to something like that? it can be rock...it can be rap it can be something else...it can even be a dog! here is a link to a sermon by art katz...its very strong about giving up things to follow christ...

if one cant even give up sertain music..... how can one sell everything and follow christ?
just some thoughts...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12162&commentView=itemComments

T
Tears_of_joy

Any objection to the carryings on of our present gold-calf Christianity is met with the triumphant reply, ”But we are winning them!” And winning them to what? To true discipleship? To cross-carrying? To self-denial? To separation from the world? To crucifixion of the flesh? To holy living? To nobility of character? To a despising of the world’s treasures? To hard self-discipline? To love for God? To total committal to Christ? Of course the answer to all these questions is no.
-A.W.Tozer

I
iansmith


most youth are going to church to be entertained. thats the problem!

I don't disagree that this is a problem, but I would argue its not relegated to the youth... the vast majority of church attendance is due to either a desire for entertainment (as you have rightly discerned) or as Charles Finney put it, [url=http://www.gospeltruth.net/1839OE/390213_t_f_religion.htm#]The Religion of many persons is mere Slavery.[/url]

A few years ago I attended a 'Contagious Christianity' conference put on by a well known mega-church that was traveling the country... although they prefaced everything with the facade of evangelism... it was almost a carbon fiber copy of similar corporate events I’ve participated in as a lay person. Instead of relying on the inherent beauty of the gospel to bring people to Christ we try to bring people to Christ by creating an experience with our own talents and created beauty, oh the shame! They kept talking about the need to create an experience, only Christ can create the experience that brings one into a true relationship with Him! That is the problem with the church today; people think that we need to sell a product when in fact the gospel inherently sells itself!

The modern church, CCM, Christian publishing and media are all caught up in trying to create an experience that will attract seekers... one only has to listen to the hosts on the local Christian Radio station (105.3 here in Seattle) to know that they are “seeker focused”... to their own detriment!!! For the sake of the widest possible distribution they water down the message until it is almost indistinguishable from worldly media (besides being family friendly).

We need to remember that Jesus went across the lake for one man! Instead, the church of America has cleaved away anything offensive from the gospel, anything requiring sacrifice or obedience in order to reach the broadest group with the most tame and powerless Gospel! How do we expect musicians to speak hard truths when our pastors aren’t willing to! Your priorities are misplaced!

M
myfirstLove

ian's quote
"How do we expect musicians to speak hard truths when our pastors aren’t willing to! Your priorities are misplaced!"

well, the pastors don't have a gun to their heads to stop them from preaching the truth if they so desire.

the reason why i brought up musicians and not focusing on the pastor because this topic is about music.

like i told you, ian, i agree that the big part of the problem is the leaders of the church, but we can't keep blaming leaders for our own walk. God gave musicians a mind of their own too, to come out of the lies and into the truth.

and if muscians do desire to speak hard truth and their pastors won't allow them then leave the church, but don't keep being lukewarm because the pastors want them too. thats a cheap blame on the pastors.

ian's quote
"We need to remember that Jesus went across the
lake for one man!"

if you truly desire to minister to the lukewarm church you will either get kicked out or start a revival. believe me i stayed in my church more than i wanted too , but for the love of God and the people motivated be to stay. i did not so easily run away because i came to knowledge of truth, but i stayed for a long while to win some for God and in obedience to the Lord. i left when it was clear from God to go. 3000 people left after me. not because of me, but God shook that place.

God used me to even speak to the musicians, to encourage them in the truth, but they desire fame more than the truth. i am not boasting, please no that, but i went thru so much pesecution from the musicians and the leaders of the church because i dare to touch their entertainment. but every prophecy that God told me to speak to them came to pass and still they rebelled even more and now they are no more.

it was like jeremiah, the leaders knew i was annoited for this task, they even desire to know from me what God is saying and saw many of my prophecies and dream came to pass, but just like the king, they refuse to obey and because the leaders refuse they all are no more at that church. God lifted up the skirt and expose their nakedness (wickedness). i'm not saying this with joy in my heart. believe me, while i was their i pleaded with God for that church and stood in many sleepless nights standing in the gap for that church. i morn so long for that church even when all was done that God had to tell me to get up and stop looking back. kinda reminds me with samuel morning for saul.

i have to say, i grew very much in that church. i learned that it will cost you much just to speak or hear one word from God. and if you dare play the hypocrite while speaking the truth, He will expose you and judge you more strickly.

so i share this with you to let you know i don't easily run away from souls after sharing the truth. relationship evangelism is acually more harder to do. if people think its easier its because they are not preaching the truth.

if you are lead by the Spirit to be use in a lukewarm church you are going to shake that place . if not, are you really preaching the truth there?

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