Majoritity or Minority Text-What difference does it make?

It has been commonly argued for 200 years that no matter what greek text one uses no doctrine will be affected. When the question is brought up of what is the correct text the usual response is "What difference does it make?"
The presently popular Greek Text are UBS and N-A which are what most all modern translations are based on. The KJV and NKJV follow the Recieve Text which is a "close cousin" of the Majority Text. The discrepencies between UBS-3 and the Majority text are 8%(involving 8%of the words). In a Greek text with 600 pages that represents 48 solid pages worth of disprepencies! About a fifth of that reflects omissions, so it is some ten pages shorter than the Majority Text. Even if we grant for the sake of arguement that up to half of the differences between the Majority and the eclectic texts could be termed "incosequential", that leaves some 25 pages worth of discpencies (in a 600 pages greek manuscript) that are signifigant(in varying degrees). In spite of these differences it is usually assumed that no cardinal Christian doctrine is at risk (though some, such as eternal judgment, the ascension and the deity of Jesus, are weakened). However, the most basic one of all, the divine inspiration of the text, is indeed under attack.
The eclectic text incorporates errors of fact and contradictions such that any claim that the New Testament is divinely inspired becomes relative, and the doctrine of inerrancy becomes virtually untenable.If the authority of the New Testament is undermined, all its teachings are likewise affected. For over a century the credibility of the New Testament text has been eroded, and this credibility crisis has been forced upon the attention of the laity by the modern versions that enclose parts of the text in brackets and have numerous footnotes of a sort that raise doubts about the integrity of the Text.
The consequences of all this are serious and far-reaching for the future of the Church. It seems unreasonable that individuals and organizations that profess to champion a high view of Scripture, that defend verbal plenary inspiration and the inerrancy of the Autographs, should embrace a Greek text that effectively undermines their belief.Since their sincerity is evident, one must conclude that they are uninformed, or have not really looked at the evidence and thought through the implications. So I will now set out some of that evidence and discuss the implications. I wish to emphasize that I am not impugning the personal sincerity or orthodoxy of those who use the UBS text; I am challenging the presuppositions that lie behind it and calling attention to the "proof of the pudding."

ERRORS OF FACT AND CONTRADICTIONS
-In these I'll put the Majority Text first and UBS and or Nestle Aland (NA25) second

Luke 4:4 [In the synagogues] of Galilee
[in the synagogues] of Judea

Problem: Jesus was in Galilee (and continued there), not in Judea, as the context makes clear. In the parallel passage, Mark 1:35-39, all texts agree that Jesus was in Galilee. Thus UBS3 contradicts itself by reading Judea in Luke 4:44. Bruce Metzger makes clear that the UBS editors did this on purpose when he explains that their reading "is obviously the more difficult, and copyists have corrected it . . . in accord with the parallels in Mt 4.23 and Mk 1.39."[5] Thus the UBS editors introduce a contradiction into their text which is also an error of fact. This error in the eclectic text is reproduced by LB, NIV, NASB, NEB, RSV, etc. NRSV adds insult to injury: "So he continued proclaiming the message in the synagogues of Judea."

Luke 23:45 [the sun] was darkened
[the sun] being eclipsed

Problem: An eclipse of the sun is impossible during a full moon. Jesus was crucified during the Passover, and the Passover is always at full moon (which is why the date for Easter moves around). UBS introduces a scientific error.

Mark 6:22 [the daughter] herself of Herodias
his [daughter] Herodias
Problem: UBS in Mark 6:22 contradicts UBS in Matthew 14:6.Matthew 14:6 states that the girl was the daughter of Herodias (Herodias had been the wife of Philip, King Herod's brother, but was now living with Herod). Here UBS makes the girl out to be Herod's own daughter, and calls her "Herodias". Metzger defends the choice of the UBS Committee with these words: "It is very difficult to decide which reading is the least unsatisfactory" (p. 89)! (Do the UBS editors consider that the original reading is lost? If not it must be "unsatisfactory", but are those editors really competent to make such a judgment? And just what might be so “unsatisfactory” about the reading of over 99% of the MSS? I suppose because it creates no problem.) The modern versions that usually identify with UBS part company with it here, except for NRSV that reads, "his daughter Herodias."

1 Corinthians 5:1 is named
Problem: It was reported that a man had his father's wife, a type of fornication such that not even the Gentiles talked about it. However, the UBS text affirms that this type of incest does not even exist among the Gentiles, a plain falsehood. Every conceivable type of sexual perversion has existed throughout human history

Luke 3:33 of Aminadab of Aram
of Aminadab of Admin of Arni

Problem: The fictitious Admin and Arni are intruded into Christ's genealogy. UBS has misrepresented the evidence in their apparatus so as to hide the fact that no Greek MS has the precise text they have printed, a veritable "patchwork quilt". In Metzger's presentation of the UBS Committee's reasoning in this case he writes, "the Committee adopted what seems to be the least unsatisfactory form of text" (p. 136). The UBS editors concoct their own reading and proclaim it "the least unsatisfactory"! And just what might be "unsatisfactory" about the reading of over 99% of the MSS except that it doesn't introduce any difficulties? There is complete confusion in the Egyptian camp. That confusion must have commenced in the second century, resulting from several easy transcriptional errors, simple copying mistakes. APAM to APNI is very easy (in the early centuries only upper case letters were used); with a scratchy quill the cross strokes in the A and M could be light, and a subsequent copyist could mistake the left leg of the M as going with the L to make N, and the right leg of the M would become I. Very early “Aminadab” was misspelled as “Aminadam”, which survives in some 25% of the extant MSS. The "Adam" of Aleph, syrs and copsa arose through an easy instance of homoioarcton (the eye of a copyist went from the first A in "Aminadam" to the second, dropping "Amin-" and leaving "Adam"). A and D are easily confused, especially when written by hand—"Admin" presumably came from “AMINadab/m”, though the process was more complicated. The "i" of "Admin" and "Arni" is corrupted to "ei" in Codex B (a frequent occurrence in that MS—perhaps due to Coptic influence). Codex Aleph conflated the ancestor that produced "Adam" with the one that produced "Admin", etc. The total confusion in Egypt does not surprise us, but how shall we account for the text and apparatus of UBS3 in this instance? And whatever possessed the editors of NASB, NRSV, TEV, LB, Berkeley, etc. to embrace such an egregious error?

Matthew 19:17 Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, God.
-Why do you ask me about the good? One is good

Problem: UBS in Matthew 19:17 contradicts UBS in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 (wherein all texts agree with the Byzantine here).Presumably Jesus spoke in Aramaic, but there is no way that whatever He said could legitimately yield the two translations into Greek given above.That the Latin versions offer a conflation suggests that both the other variants must have existed in the second century—indeed, the Diatessaron overtly places the Byzantine reading in the first half of that century. The Church in Egypt during the second century was dominated by Gnosticism. That such a "nice" gnostic variant came into being is no surprise, but why do modern editors embrace it? Because it is the "more obscure one" (Metzger, p. 49). This "obscurity" was so attractive to the UBS Committee that they printed another "patchwork quilt"—taking the young man's question and this first part of the Lord's answer together, the precise text of UBS3 is found only in the corrector of Codex B; further, with reference to the main Greek MSS given as supporting the eclectic text here (À,B,D,L,Q,f1), the fact is that no two of them precisely agree! (Should they be regarded as reliable witnesses? On what basis?) Most modern versions join UBS in this error also.

Acts 19:16 them
both of them
Problem: The sons of Sceva were seven, not two.To argue that "both" can mean "all" on the basis of this passage is to beg the question. An appeal to Acts 23:8 is likewise unconvincing. "For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both." "Angel" and "spirit" if not intended as synonyms at least belong to a single class, spirit beings. The Pharisees believed in "both"—resurrection and spirit beings. There is no basis here for claiming that "both" can legitimately refer to seven (Acts 19:16).Still, most modern versions do render "both" as "all". NASB actually renders "both of them," making the contradiction overt!

Matthew 1:7-8 Asa
Asaph
Problem: Asaph does not belong in Jesus' genealogy. Asaph was a Levite, not of the tribe of Judah; he was a psalmist, not a king. It is clear from Metzger's comments that the UBS editors understand that their reading refers to the Levite and should not be construed as an alternate spelling of Asa; he overtly calls Asaph an "error" (p. 1). In fact, "Asaph" is probably not a misspelling of "Asa". Not counting Asa and Amon (see v. 10) Codex B misspells 13 names in this chapter, while Codex Aleph misspells 10, which undermines their credibility. However, their misspellings involve dittography, gender change, or a similar sound (z for s, d for t, m for n)—not adding an extraneous consonant, like f, nor trading dissimilar sounds, like s for n.

In response to Lagrange, who considered "Asaph" to be an ancient scribal error, Metzger writes: "Since, however, the evangelist may have derived material for the genealogy, not from the Old Testament directly, but from subsequent genealogical lists, in which the erroneous spelling occurred, the Committee saw no reason to adopt what appears to be a scribal emendation" (p. 1). Metzger frankly declares that the spelling they have adopted is "erroneous". The UBS editors have deliberately imported an error into their text, which is faithfully reproduced by NAB (New American Bible) and NRSV. RSV and NASB offer a footnote to the effect that the Greek reads "Asaph"—it would be less misleading if they said that a tiny fraction of the Greek MSS so read. The case of Amon vs. Amos in verse 10 is analogous to this one. Metzger says that "Amos" is "an error for 'Amon'" (p. 2), and the UBS editors have duly placed the error in their text.

Matthew 10:10 neither staffs
neither a staff
Problem: In both Matthew 10:10 and Luke 9:3 UBS has "neither a staff," thus contradicting Mark 6:8 where all texts have "only a staff."Discussion: In Luke and Matthew the Byzantine text reads "neither staffs", which does not contradict Mark—the case of the staffs is analogous to that of the tunics; they were to take only one, not several. A superficial reader would probably expect the singular; that some scribe in Egypt should have trouble with "staffs" and simplify it to "a staff" comes as no surprise, but why do the UBS editors import this error into their text? Almost all modern versions follow UBS both here and in Luke 9:3.

Mark 1:2 [as it is written]in the prophets
[as it is written] in Isaiah the prophet
Problem: The UBS text ascribes extraneous material to Isaiah. The rest of verse 2 is a quote from Malachi 3:1 while verse 3 is from Isaiah 40:3. Once again Metzger uses the "harder reading" argument, in effect (p. 73), but the eclectic choice is most probably the result of early harmonizing activity.Almost all modern versions agree with UBS here.

I pause to register a case where the chief "Alexandrian" witnesses introduce a contradiction that the "critical" texts have not adopted, thankfully, although Westcott and Hort included it in double brackets in their text. This gives a further illustration of the tendency of those MSS.

Matthew 27:49 but another taking a spear pierced His side, and water and blood came out

Problem: The "Alexandrian" reading here has Jesus being speared before His death (presumably becoming the direct cause of that death), which contradicts John 19:34 that states plainly that Jesus' side was pierced after He dismissed His spirit.
I am well aware that the foregoing examples may not strike the reader as being uniformly convincing. However, I submit that there is a cumulative effect. By dint of ingenuity and mental gymnastics it may be possible to appear to circumvent one or another of these examples (including those that follow), but with each added instance the strain on our credulity increases. One or two circumventions may be accepted as possible, but five or six become highly improbable; ten or twelve are scarcely tolerable.

Anomalies/Aberrations

John 7:8 not yet
not
Problem: Since Jesus did in fact go to the feast (and doubtless knew what He was going to do), the UBS text has the effect of ascribing a falsehood to Him.

John 6:47 [believes] into me
[believes]
Problem: Jesus is making a formal declaration about how one can have eternal life: "Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes into me has everlasting life." By omitting "into me" the UBS text opens the door to universalism.

Acts 28:13 making a circuit [we reached Rhegium]
taking away (something) [we reached Rhegium]
Problem: The verb chosen by UBS, periairew, is transitive, and is meaningless here.Metzger's lame explanation is that a majority of the UBS Committee took the word to be "a technical nautical term of uncertain meaning" (p. 501)! Why do they choose to disfigure the text on such poor evidence when there is an easy transcriptional explanation? The Greek letters O and Q are very similar, and being side by side in a word it would be easy to drop one of them out, in this case the theta. Most modern versions are actually based on the "old" Nestle text, which here agrees with the Majority reading. NRSV, however, follows UBS3, rendering it as "then we weighed anchor."

Mark 16:9-20 UBS and NA omit it.
-Problem: A serious aberration is introduced—it is affirmed that Mark's Gospel ends with 16:8.UBS3 encloses these verses in double brackets, which means they are "regarded as later additions to the text," and they give their decision an {A} grade, "virtually certain". So, the UBS editors assure us that the genuine text of Mark ends with 16:8. But why do critics insist on rejecting this passage? It is contained in every extant Greek MS (about 1,800) except three (really only two, B and 304—Aleph is not properly "extant" because it is a forgery at this point).[13] Every extant Greek Lectionary (about 2,000?) contains them (one of them, 185, doing so only in the Menologion). Every extant Syriac MS (about 1,000?) except one (Sinaitic) contains them. Every extant Latin MS (8,000?) except one (k) contains them. Every extant Coptic MS except one contains them. We have hard evidence for the "inclusion" from the II century (Irenaeus and the Diatessaron), and presumably the first half of that century. We have no such hard evidence for the "exclusion".In the face of such massive evidence, why do the critics insist on rejecting this passage? Lamentably, most modern versions also cast doubt upon the authenticity of these verses in one way or another (NRSV is especially objectionable here). As one who believes that the Bible is God's Word, I find it to be inconceivable that an official biography of Jesus Christ, commissioned by God and written subject to His quality control, should omit proofs of the resurrection, should exclude all post-resurrection appearances, should end with the clause "because they were afraid"! If the critics' assessment is correct we seem to be between a rock and a hard place. Mark's Gospel as it stands is mutilated (if it ends at v. 8), the original ending having disappeared without a trace. But in that event what about God's purpose in commissioning this biography?

John 1:18 the only begotten son
an only begotten god
the only begotten god-NA
Problem: A serious anomaly is introduced—God, as God, is not begotten. The human body and nature of Jesus Christ was indeed literally begotten in the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit; God the Son has existed eternally. "An only begotten god" is so deliciously gnostic that the apparent Egyptian provenance of this reading makes it doubly suspicious. It would also be possible to render the second reading as "only begotten god!", emphasizing the quality, and this has appealed to some who see in it a strong affirmation of Christ's deity. However, if Christ received His "Godhood" through the begetting process then He cannot be the eternally pre-existing Second Person of the Godhead. Nor is "only begotten" analogous to "firstborn", referring to priority of position—that would place the Son above the Father. No matter how one looks at it, the UBS reading introduces a serious anomaly.

John 7:53-8:11 Omitted in UBS
The evidence against the Majority Text is stronger than in any of the previous examples, but assuming that the passage is spurious (for the sake of the argument), how could it ever have intruded here, and to such effect that it is attested by some 85% of the MSS? Let's try to read the larger passage without these verses—we must go from 7:52 to 8:12 directly. Reviewing the context, the chief priests and Pharisees had sent officers to arrest Jesus, to no avail; a "discussion" ensues; Nicodemus makes a point, to which the Pharisees answer:

(7:52) "Are you also from Galilee? Search and look, for no prophet has arisen out of Galilee."

(8:12) Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world . . . ."
What is the antecedent of "them", and what is the meaning of "again"? By the normal rules of grammar, if 7:53-8:11 is missing then "them" must refer to the "Pharisees" and "again" means that there has already been at least one prior exchange. But, 7:45 makes clear that Jesus was not there with the Pharisees. Thus, UBS introduces an aberration. And yet, Metzger claims that the passage "interrupts the sequence of 7.52 and 8.12 ff." (p. 220)! To look for the antecedents of 8:12 in 7:37-39 not only does despite to the syntax but also runs afoul of 8:13—"the Pharisees" respond to Jesus' claim in verse 12, but "the Pharisees" are somewhere else, 7:45-52 (if the Pericope is absent).Metzger also claims that "the style and vocabulary of the pericope differ noticeably from the rest of the Fourth Gospel"—but, wouldn't the native speakers of Greek at that time have been in a better position than modern critics to notice something like that? So how could they allow such an "extraneous" passage to be forced into the text? I submit that the evident answer is that they did not; it was there all the time. I also protest their use of brackets here. Since the editors clearly regard the passage to be spurious they should be consistent and delete it, as do NEB and Williams. That way the full extent of their error would be open for all to see. NIV, NASB, NRSV, Berkeley and TEV also use brackets to question the legitimacy of this passage.

1 Timothy 3:16 God [was manifested in flesh]
who [was manifested in flesh]
that [was manifested in flesh]NA

Problem: A grammatical anomaly is introduced. "Great is the mystery of godliness, who was manifested in flesh" is worse in Greek than it is in English. "Mystery" is neuter in gender while "godliness" is feminine, but "who" is masculine!

2 Peter 3:10 [the earth . . .] will be burned up
[the earth . . .] will be found
Problem: The UBS reading is nonsensical; the context is clearly one of judgment.Metzger actually states that their text "seems to be devoid of meaning in the context" (p. 706)! So why did they choose it? Metzger explains that there is "a wide variety of readings, none of which seems to be original"—presumably if "shall be burned up" were the only reading, with unanimous attestation (it has 94% of the MSS), he would still reject it, but he can scarcely argue that it is meaningless. The UBS editors deliberately chose a variant that they believed to be "devoid of meaning in the context." NASB abandons UBS here, giving the Byzantine reading; NEB and NIV render "will be laid bare"; TEV has "will vanish".

1 Peter 2:2 [desire . . . the word that] you may grow [thereby]
[desire . . . the word that] you may grow [thereby] into salvation
-- Problem: A doctrinal anomaly is introduced. Peter is writing to the "elect" (1:2), to the "redeemed" (1:18), to the "born again" (1:23), to “a holy priesthood” (2:5), to “believers” (2:7), to “slaves of God” (2:16)—they do indeed need to grow, but not "into salvation".Metzger explains: "The TR . . . omits ["into salvation"] either through an oversight in copying . . . or because the idea of 'growing into salvation' was theologically unacceptable" (p. 689). Notice that the UBS editors understand their text to mean "growing into salvation." TEV, NRSV and Jerusalem render UBS literally, putting the salvation in the future. NIV renders "grow up in your salvation," something the text doesn't say, while LB has a looser variation on that theme (NEB is looser still).

How is all of this to be explained? I believe the answer lies in the area of presuppositions. There has been a curious reluctance on the part of conservative scholars to come to grips with this matter. To assume that the editorial choices of a naturalistic scholar will not be influenced by his theological bias is naive in the extreme.

To sum it up, I return to the opening question: "What difference does it make?" Not only do we have the confusion caused by two rather different competing forms of the Greek text, but one of them (the eclectic text) incorporates errors and contradictions that undermine the doctrine of inspiration and virtually vitiate the doctrine of inerrancy; the other (the Majority Text) does not. The first is based on subjective criteria, applied by naturalistic critics; the second is based on the consensus of the manuscript tradition down through the centuries. Because the conservative evangelical schools and churches have generally embraced the theory (and therefore the presuppositions) that underlies the eclectic text (UBS3/Nestle26), there has been an ongoing hemorrhage or defection within the evangelical camp with reference to the doctrines of Biblical inspiration and inerrancy (especially). The authority of Scripture has been undermined —it no longer commands immediate and unquestioned obedience. As a natural consequence there is a generalized softening of our basic commitment to Christ and His Kingdom. Worse yet, through our missionaries we have been exporting all of this to the emerging churches in the "third world". Alas!

Not only do we have the confusion caused by two rather different competing forms of the Greek text, but one of them (the eclectic text) incorporates errors and contradictions that undermine the doctrine of inspiration and virtually vitiate the doctrine of inerrancy; the other (the Majority Text) does not.

Quote-"The Textus Receptus itself is also an eclectic text. There is no single manuscript which has a perfect copy of the original."

First off I didtn't dubb it the eclectic text. That's just one of the names that's been given besides "critical" and "minority. And here is why.The definition of eclectic is-"Unrelated and unspecialized. Crossing a range or mixture of specialties." The majority is NOT eclectic in the true sense of the word. Why? Because we have a majority of manuscripts to witness to the fact that they are "related"(literally) (I know there are some instances where a majority reading isn't available but in those few instances it's not hard to find the reading that is correct using other sources)Whereas in the minority text we find Bruce Metzger and the boys bringing out readings that aren't in ANY manuscripts or the writing of the early Church fathers or the Latin Vulgate. That is eclectisism. It is eclectic to take the Worst least verified reading of a text and say this is what it should say BECAUSE it contradicts other scripture and that must be what it originally said because there was never a time when God's word was perfect. This is the thought line they are on with the eclectic and it is a slippery slope.

eclectic

You will be aware that we don't even know what 'eclectic' text the KJV was based on. Scrivener tried to reverse-engineer a text which is sometimes called the 'text behind the KJV' but he created it by eliminating any variants which were not represented in the KJV.

Quote-This is the same root as 'ekklesia' or a called-out company. An eclectic text is one 'gathered out' of various manuscripts. In that sense even Erasmus' original was an eclectic text.

This is only a partial truth.

The authority of Scripture has been undermined —it no longer commands immediate and unquestioned obedience. As a natural consequence there is a generalized softening of our basic commitment to Christ and His Kingdom.

Only by those who didn't know Christ in Spirit and truth, but knew Christ by the bible alone.

Those who have been born again follow Christ by continually giving themselves to Christ. Because of this, fruit is produced in them. They do not "obey" the law, rather the law is produced in them as fruit through the indwelling of the Spirit. Likewise, anyone who "obeys" the bible is living under the law and has no part of Christ. They are putting on a false appearance of being Holy, while inside they deny Christ.

The bible should be made true in a believer by Christ. A believer obeys Christ in love by giving thier life to Him. As a result, Christ works in them and they naturally obey the bible. However, any person who "obeys" the bible as "the" authority has given themselves over to a false god. This form of idoltary is prevelant in the Church currently. The bible is not the Word of God. Rather, it is a testimony to the Word of God. However, the Church has adopted the bible as the Word of God making it the fourth person in their trinity.

In the lives of true believers, the bible has no authority and never has had any. Those who have been born again died with Christ to the law. The do not follow "laws" rather, the law is written in them. Christ lives in them, and as such, they don't follow the law, they follow Christ.

The authority the bible has had is over non-believers. The bible has been imposed as an authority or law to those who really don't know Christ. These people don't have Christ in them, and so, they "obey" the bible. They obey the bible as though it were God. Since they do not have Christ, the law is an oppressive force over them. Inside, they have sin. Their nature is to sin. And so, the law oppresses them.

There is no "softening" of a commitment to Christ. Rather, a slow division is occurring. Those who are in Christ know His voice. They follow Him. Those who are not in Christ, do not know Him. They do not follow Christ. And as such, people who are without Christ are defying the bible. They are rejecting it. They do not want to be oppressed. Instead, they are turning toward lawlessness. Instead of being set free from sin by dying with Christ to the law, they are setting themselves free by giving into sin and rejecting the law of God.

This lawlessness is abounding and will continue to abound. Because of this, many will fall away from Christ. It will appear as a disobedience to the bible, but in truth it is a rejection of Christ. They are openly rejecting Christ by refusing to repent of thier sins. Rather, in thier minds, they have no sin. Sin is natural, they will say.

As lawlessness abounds, a seperation will occur. Those who truly know Christ will know His voice and will keep thier confidence in Him. Those who do not know Christ will slowly be drawn away into lawlessness.

Worse yet, through our missionaries we have been exporting all of this to the emerging churches in the "third world". Alas!

Alas, we do have a Savior who is the Head of the true Church. He is fully capable of using weak and sinful people to do His work, all the while seeing people saved. We should not worry what is happening to the Church, for she is in good hands, the best.

In Christ,
Blake

Quote-"In the lives of true believers, the bible has no authority and never has had any."

This is the CRAZIEST statement I've ever heard in my entire life.

beenblake's

The bible is not the Word of God. Rather, it is a testimony to the Word of God.

I am not giving Blake any needed help, he can do just fine himself, but I believe he is saying it is the Christ in us that makes the Bible the authority. He is the Word of God. Our hope is in Christ and no other, He is a Person a living, giving Person of God. He is God in us. Act 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring. We are the offspring of God. Think on that. Christ Himself is the Word and He is in us and we live by His life. The bible as the authoritative word of God means nothing If Christ is not born again in the believer, then it is Christ the Word born again in us. 1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Who is the Word? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

It is people that don't see who the God in us is and what makes the Word living in them that use the bible as their law of life. We have the law of Live Himself in us and it is His life that we are to be living. Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Law on this side.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Law on this side.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In the middle of the Law of the bible is Christ Himself. Who is our life outside of the Law?
"Christ in you, the hope of Glory" Col 1:27

Go Blake Go, I see Christ in you because I see Christ in me. May the power of the Holy Spirit bring Jesus Christ forth in His appointed Work of the Holy Spirit in us. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

In Christ: Phillip

I am not giving Blake any needed help, he can do just fine himself, but I believe he is saying it is the Christ in us that makes the Bible the authority.

Human beings are fallible and we would expect every human witness to be fallible but if it is the Witness of God we may expect it to be infallible.

I’d like to quote a few lines from the Barthianism article (by Ron):

Bible is the authentic witness of the Christians to their genuine experience, but in some senses filtered through their experience. The Bible is interpreted by the effect it has upon the people who believe it. This is subjective, but consciously so.

In some ways he (Barth) is a stepping stone towards post-modernism in that only the personally interpreted word is relevant.

Truth has become was has been received rather than was has been given.
It emphasizes a subjective authority of the Bible

In a sense there is some truth here – as really, I live by the interpretation that I, MYSELF see and understand as filtered through my experience. That is truth to me. Of course that doesn’t make it right. Yet objective truth is meaningless and unreal to me unless it also becomes my subjective truth.

Reading your Barth article surfaced some memories:

I have always attended Bible-believing churches where: “The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it” . But in reality, that did NOT settle it. Because really it was subjective interpretation that settled it. Every sermon was a subjective delivery of the Word.

In our ladies bible studies we all took our turn sharing what a particular verse meant to us. Then we would go around the circle on the next verse and all share what it meant to us. And so on. I don’t think anyone of them ever heard of Barth – yet it sure sounds similar. I suspect that what was happening was a legitimate attempt to make the Scriptures meaningful, and not just dry objective information privy to only the pastor. Yet really we just filtered scripture through our existing views.

Is this the same as Evangelical Existentialism? (I thought I read that term once in a hermeneutics book - but can’t find it now).

Diane

roadsign's

Yet objective truth is meaningless and unreal to me unless it also becomes my subjective truth.

The point you are making is a separate one. All Bible truth has a moral dimension; it demands my faith/obedience. It is only as I submit to the objective truth that it becomes 'my truth' but my submitting to the Truth does not make it truth.“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
(John 8:31-32 KJVS)This is not saying that Truth only becomes truth if people believe it but that if people believe the Truth revealed in Christ they will recognise it as 'truth' and its consequence will be that there lives are impacted by that Truth. If they reject it and Him, the Truth remains the Truth.

Here is a statement of Biblical truth; a propositional revelation, "Jesus is Christ is Lord". He is not "Lord" when "I make Him Lord" as the evangelical phrase goes. He is "Lord" irrespective of what I do about it; this is objective truth. In fact the real statement should be; "Jesus Christ [u]is[/u] Lord; what are you going to do about it?"

Diane wrote:

Yet objective truth is meaningless and unreal to me unless it also becomes my subjective truth.

This sounds good but it isn't true

I guess I'm trying to defend the need for the subjective assimilation of truth, but I do not imply that that is what MAKES it truth. IE: We may know that God exists and that he forgives sin (objective truth) but that doesn't mean we really believe it subjectively, though we say we do. Our subjective beliefs are revealed through our life choices, and exposed in trials, testings, etc.

Here is a statement of Biblical truth; a propositional revelation, "Jesus is Christ is Lord". He is not "Lord" when "I make Him Lord" as the evangelical phrase goes. He is "Lord" irrespective of what I do about it; this is objective truth. In fact the real statement should be; "Jesus Christ is Lord; what are you going to do about it?"

This is going beyond the subjective experience of truth into subjective FORMATION of "truth".

I hate to admit it, but I think that this trend is quite prevelent in our evangelical thinking and has been for years.

Diane

I hate to admit it, but I think that this trend is quite prevelent in our evangelical thinking and has been for years.

Rom. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to [u]my gospel[/u], and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to [u]my gospel[/u]:

..at least 50!
It's part of the ego-centricity which causes us to say "accept Jesus as your personal Saviour".

Diane

Is there a good article somewhere on the net that summerizes this Neo-orthodox movement over the past 50 years - one that I could pass on?

Are you using 'neo-orthodox' in the sense of the Barthian school?

Are you using 'neo-orthodox' in the sense of the Barthian school?

I'll see what I can find. I am away tomorrow for a week at a Conference. One of the signs of the creep of neo-orthodoxy may be the greater acceptance among evangelicals of the writing of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who was on this school.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/neoortho.htm

http://www.godspointofview.com/public/articles/neo-orthodoxy.html

Thanks Phillip, The articles describe the history of neo-orthodoxy. That helps me understand what one is talking about when using the label. I realize that this is not what I’m looking for. The concluding comment in the second link says that too:

The normal sense of analysis would bring us to the conclusion that the neo-orthodoxy of Karl Barth and the German intellectuals is a thing for the history books and for discussions among mystics on long, rainy Sunday afternoons.

So, what am I looking for?

We live in a day of significant religious unravelling, of both our traditional religous structures and also our belief structures. This seems to be especially sensed by my middle-aged peers. Many are in a haze, not necessarily understanding what has been happening or why. They just know that things aren’t working and are falling apart. And the church hasn’t produced the goods that it promised us thirty years ago, back in the heydays of evangelicalism – when we thought we were so great.

These friends/relatives/peers and others are the ones whom I feel would be receptive to a broader explanation of the slippery slop that we have been on for the last 50 years.

I’m not sure if there is a particular label for this trend, or even if there is any particular movement that we have bought into. I realize that we could easily explain it by saying that worldliness has crept into the church. But I suspect that for the most part we don’t really see HOW this is so, and how it has changed our way of THINKING and BELIEVING – most significantly in our perception of salvation.

This is serious stuff. It is not a case of “worldly” music defiling our morning church services. (we can always see the others getting worldly) It’s a case of being deluded about our salvation and resting our faith on the WRONG foundation – our SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION of truth (see earlier posts).

So any article on the web that is not too academic, yet brings clarity to this issue and explains its development would be appreciated. Ideally, it should also stir the conscience and allow readers to honestly consider their own assumptions and possible delusions about their salvation.

“Judgment begins in the house of God.” By judgment I mean self-evaluation, discernment... judge, assess, distinguish...

I wish to do my part.

Diane

So is the Bible the Word of God or is it only the Word of God when we recognise it to be the Word of God. Was the original text without error and directly inspired by God or is it just the witness of God's people to what they believe they have heard?

Dear Philologos,

You claim to have been born again, do you not? And in the process, you have recieved the Holy Spirit, have you not? Thus, in your daily activity and exercise, you are inspired by God, are you not? Does this make you infalliable? Are you perfect and without error?

The original text of the bible was written by men and women who were not Jesus Christ. They were not perfect and infallible. Explain to me how these men and women could possibly write perfectly what God has told them? Did God dictate these words to them, and then force them to write exactly as He wished?

Indeed, the bible was inpsired by God and the Holy Spirit recalled events during their writing. However, did the Holy Spirit rape them of their will? Or did these men and women submit willing unto their Lord writing as they were directed, but with error as they were with error?

Additionally, is it possible for God's Word to be written? What is God's Word?

In Love,
Blake

Quote-"In the lives of true believers, the bible has no authority and never has had any."

This is the CRAZIEST statement I've ever heard in my entire life.

How so?

In Christ,
Blake

.

The original text of the bible was written by men and women who were not Jesus Christ. They were not perfect and infallible. Explain to me how these men and women could possibly write perfectly what God has told them? Did God dictate these words to them, and then force them to write exactly as He wished?

So long as they followed the leading of God in what they said, they were infalliable. You and I are capable of being infalliable in what we say so long as we follow the leading of the Spirit. How is it possible? Through the power of God who is able to keep one from stumbling.

So Hi Diane,

Your question:

"So, what am I looking for?"

What a great question. What are we all looking for? The first thing that I had to come to was to rightly divide the word of God. Yes, I know that the word dispensation throws up flags and bells and whistles for the whole of Church.

There are certain ways God deals with His creation just like there are different ways a mother and father deal with their children. The beginning of life is certainly different from the end of life, you don't deal with a 2 year old the same way you deal with a teenager. On top of that you don't deal with a criminal the same way you deal with a law abiding citizen.

If you look at a baby in innocents but he/she still want their own way, when he/she is hungry he or she wants attention now or the parents hear about it, Dirty diaper, gas, any little thing he/she wants, the parents hear about it even 3AM in the morning, he/she doesn't care.

Ultra dispensationalism is just as bad as no dispensationalism, so we must come to the truth where the Holy Spirit will lead is and show us who we are in Christ.

So how would God deal with His infantile creation when the first thing he/she did was listen to a liar and deceiver and trust him more that the God who created them. Pretty dumb, right?

If you look at the different ways God has dealt with his creation you see the same way parents deal with children. These are dispensations in the life of the children. God has used many dispensations in dealing with His creation. The first one was innocence, that is the garden, we failed. The second major way God dealt with man was conscience, That is let mans own conscience rule his life, well we know that does not work because of sin and death in man. In fact, it is the knowledge of evil or sin that condemns every man as a sinner, and every person born of Adam inherits the capacity for this knowledge. So conscience doesn't work either. Then we can go to other dispensation or ways God has dealt with mankind and we see that none of them worked. We know about the dispensation of Law and the dispensation of Grace. So what does all this mean? From the very foundation of the world Christ was in the picture even in the garden, that is the tree of Life. We see shadows and picture of Christ in the Old Testament, We see in the New Testament the reality of Christ. God knew from the beginning that man could not be a son of God on his own. He would have to work out a plan that would put Christ in a person so he would be able to come to the knowledge of who God is and what God wants His children to be. That is Gods only reason for the creation of man, He wanted children in His House.

Christ in you is the only answer, and the dispensations is the only way to separate the scripture to see where we have come from and where we are going. If you want to understand these different ways God has dealt and is dealing with man, I have come across a man that God has given the Grace to make it more clear what covenant, dispensation, promises etc. are and how they apply to our life with and in Christ as we live now. He is a much better writer than I, but I agree with his expertise concurrently and completely. There is much more beyond what is written but it is a good foundation.

I have his permission to use any and all of his writing to bring truth to the body of Christ the Church. His URL.

http://www.preservedwords.com/dispen1a.htm

Any questions please let me know and maybe we can come up with the answers, by the direction and teaching of the Holy Spirit together.

In Christ: Phillip

beenblakes's

Additionally, is it possible for God's Word to be written? What is God's Word?

Christ in you is the only answer, and the dispensations is the only way to separate the scripture to see where we have come from and where we are going.

I fear that comments like this one taken from the article is actually counterproductive, as it may perpetuate the illusion about one's salvation:

Whether the believer obeys or disobeys these duties has nothing to do with his salvation, but disobedience will cost him rewards and crowns at the Judgment Seat ... .

I suspect that this statement encouarges one to discount the very symptoms that make good warning lights; ie, their sin. "the man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar..." 1 Jn 2:3

I wonder if dispensationalism if a factor in the slipery slide into subjective evangelicalism. (how's that for a label?) When did dispensationalism rise into popularity?

“See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us – even eternal life” I John 2:24

"Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you, it means you have failed the test." 2 Corinthians 13:5 (NLT)

“… be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome in the eternal kingdom of our Lord.” 2 Pet. 1:10

Diane

Dear bartle and everyone else,

If indeed the bible is the Word of God, then would not the author's recognize the bible as the Word of God?

Let us consider the book of Luke.

Luke 1:1-4(NASB)
1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, 2
just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, 3 it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; 4 so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

Let us review this scripture and see what we find.

Firstly, let us take note that the apostle Luke was writing a letter to a friend. At no point does Luke acknowledge or particularly state God's commissioning of this letter or any divine intervention on this behalf. This is not to say that Luke was not inspired by God, but it is to say that God did not directly command this. Luke does not state any leading of the Holy Spirit. Instead, Luke says it seemed "fitting" to write the letter. The writing of the letter was by Luke's choice. He was concern for his friend and wished to share the gospel with him. This letter was written in the words of Luke.

Secondly, Luke begins by speaking about other scripture and his impression of scripture. He speaks of others who have written "accounts", the Greek word used here being "Diegesis" which translates "narrative". I point this out as some seem to be offended that the bible should be called a book of stories, and yet, this is exactly how Luke referred to scripture. It is quite obvious Luke is speaking of scripture, as he says, "handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word." We are not speaking of texts that were mere recordings of Jewish life and times. Luke was speaking of texts that were recorded by men and women who were "eyewitnesses and servants of the word."

This brings me to my last observation. Luke does not say the word was recorded or even refer to scripture as the word. Rather, Luke says scripture is a recording of "eyewitnesses and servants of the word." Very specifically, Luke uses the Greek word Logos here. This same word is the one John used to speak of Christ in the first book of John.

This idea that the Word of God came to a person, and this person then wrote an account or "testimony" of what they heard and saw is carried throughout the bible. In John 10:35, Jesus is quoted as saying, "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot * be broken;" If you notice, Jesus says, "unto whom the word of God came" suggesting that the word of God came unto a person who then wrote down what they saw or heard. He calls this recording or document "scripture." Christ does not parallel Word of God" and "scripture." He does parallel the experience of God's Word coming to someone.

In the NASB, the phrase "word of the LORD came" is written 99 times, and in KJ, it is written 93 times. I do not think it was written this way by mistake. The Word of the Lord came to someone, much like a person visits another. The Word is being personified. In addition, what is being established is the experience. The person experienced the Word of the Lord. It came unto them. The person then recorded what they heard and saw. The recording is a testimony.

This must be understood in it's fullest. When the Lord speaks, it is with immense power and wisdom. The Word of the Lord is not mere words. The Word of the Lord is full of living power as it says in the book of Hebrews.

The Word of the Lord is an event. When the Lord speaks it is sure, above and beyond anything, and it bears all authority over everything. Who could possibly defy the Word of God?

The bible is not the Word of God. It is merely a recording. It is a copy. This is significant. The Word of the Lord happened in an event that was then recorded into what we know as scripture. When holding the bible, we don't have the actual Word of God. We have a recording or copy. The bible is not the Word of God Himself, it is a copy or recording of the Word of God. In other words, it is a testimony of the Word.

This is further made evident by what is recording in Exodus concerning the ten commandments. The ten commandments were written by the very finger of God. In all of history, this is the only known document where God Himself actually wrote the very words. Even still, these stone tablets are referred to as a testimony. In Exodus 25:16 (NASB) it says, "You shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you."

Scripture is a testimony of the Word of God. It is not the Word of God. Rather, Christ is the Word of God. Scripture testifies about Christ.

I could write many more scripture and examples that support this. In addition, there are a several more issues I could address, for instance that the testimony is alive in each believer or its significance in the age to come. However, doing so would lead to an entire book of what the Lord has shown me. Instead, I would like to end this post about a devastating problem that has arose in the Church.

The bible is a testimony of the Word. However, over the past century, the Church has declared the bible to be the "Word of God." The Church has given the bible all authority as such. This has been done so that the Church could have an instrument and tool in order to push or maintain authority, much like the Pharisees did with the Law at the time of Christ.

In addition, this has also lead to a most grievous sin. As established in John 1:1, the Word of God is God. By saying the bible is the "Word of God", they have elevated the bible to the same level as God. In turn, what has happened is that bible worship has become prevalent in the Church. Instead of turning to Christ in prayer upon all matters, and placing all their trust in Him, people are placing all their trust in the bible. When a person needs an answer to a question, rather than pray and ask the Lord, they seek the counsel of the bible. Rather than tell unbelievers they need to seek Christ, and turn to Christ, they are told to turn to the bible. They are told the bible is the basis for all things. In fact, it has come to such a point that people are told reading the bible is the same as spending time with God. The bible has been established as the complete authority on the believer’s life, which is far from the truth. The true Word of God, Jesus Christ, is being replaced with the bible, the testimony of Christ. A proper view of the bible has been lost. Just as the Roman Catholic Church once replaced Christ, which lead to the reformation, so has the bible slowly replaced Christ.

John 5:39 (NASB)
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;”

I pray that the Church may be revived of this blindness, and may once again see the truth. I pray she may place all her trust in her true Lord, Jesus Christ, and that she will abandon all earthly notions for her heavenly home united with Him. I pray she will not try to obey the commandments, but that she will live controlled by the Spirit in her, producing all that is pleasing to Him in His sight. I pray she will only worship the Holy One, her Savior and Lord.

In Christ,
Blake

I pray that the Church may be revived of this blindness, and may once again see the truth.

I dare say that the Pharisees were NOT trusting the word. They couldn’t see Christ in it because they were blinded by unbelief, not because they were trusting the Torah too much. (although it looked like they were) They were too busy straining gnats. And that is, quite likely the real problem today with the Bible thumpers. They say the Bible is their ultimate guide, but really it is not. They trust in something other: self, works, etc.

Diane

Dear Dianne,

If one is truly trusting the Bible, and seeing what it said, would they not find Christ - the ultimate truth. The entire Bible points to Christ and our need to surrender to a PERSON. You have to be big-time blind to miss this in the Bible. It’s not obscure.

I wish this were true. However, a person will not find Christ by reading the bible. What they will find is information about Christ in the bible, and by reading it, they will know about Christ. It is the same if you were to read the biography of Ben Franklin. You would know about him, but could you say that you know Ben? You could call Ben your friend?

Alas, the bible may lead you to an understanding of Christ, however, if you want to know Jesus as Lord and Savior, you must meet Him. You must be saved. You must be born again. The bible cannot do this.

Not to mention, the bible is spiritually discerned. This means that if you are without Christ and do not have the Holy Spirit, you will not discern the bible correctly.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are strict followers of the bible and all it teaches. They submit and obey it to every letter. However, they do not understand a single word, for they do not have the Spirit. Because of this, they do not surrender to Christ. Instead, they surrender to their own interpretation of the bible.

Putting the bible in the hands of someone who does not have the Spirit of Christ is like giving someone an instruction manual written in a foreign language. They may pick up on bits and pieces, but until they learn the langauage, they will not understand.

A person can only come to an understanding of the bible by the Spirit of Christ. A person can only come to an intimate knowledge of Christ by being saved.

In addition, while the bible speak of Christ, Christ lives in each believer. A person will see Christ on earth in the heart of each true believer. This is essential. The good news is being spread through each of us. We are the carriers. We are the vessels God has chosen to use. Too often, we are neglecting our responsibilities by substituting our command to love one another with a bible. How sad it is that we should ever substitute love with a bible, but it is happening.

We should not replace Christ with the bible. The bible is important and significant, however, we should also keep it in proper view. It is a relfection of God, not God Himself. We must not mistake the reflection for God, or else we should commit idoltary.

In love,
Blake

a person will not find Christ by reading the bible.

It is the same if you were to read the biography of Ben Franklin. You would know about him, but could you say that you know Ben? You could call Ben your friend?

I fear you are muddying the water. If you have the right book about Ben F you can indeed find him (if he was living). It would take you right to his house. Likewise, a good map helps you find the way. But the map itself is not the city – I think that’s what you are trying to say.

Yes, my Bible alone is just a bunch of black blobs on paper. (Sorry to all who bury a Bible in the foundation of their home, for protection from demons)

Yet one can indeed find Christ in and through the Bible (God’s map – brilliantly laid out). It's far from meaningless to the unregenerate. Just ask pagans what the golden rule means to them. It reflects the very character of God.

How do you get to now anyone? It’s usually by them talking to you (among other ways). The Bible TALKS the very words of our Lord. Would we get to know him better if he spoke the same thing audibly?

Diane

It may be a couple of weeks before I can get back to this discussion as I shall be away from home but if you would like to "listen" to my answer to this question you will find it in a little series of studies I did about 10 years ago called The Word of God.

Dear Philologos,

I took the time out today to listen to the first part in your series called “The Word of God” where you address the question ‘What is the Word of God?' Truly, it is an in depth study and I do appreciate your observations. In your offering you establish the point that the words to be “received” and that the listener should become “involved” in them. The following discourse is a testimony to that.

In the beginning of your presentation, you address the question, ‘what is a word?’. You provide several answers. You say a word is a “revealer of thoughts and desires”, an “expression of things inside,” and a “carrier.” Indeed, these do speak of what a ‘word’ is. However, these characteristics especially highlight that of the human ‘word’ without considering the full depth of God’s Word. The Word of God is much greater and it’s purpose is much higher. Communication and revelation are important aspects of this, however, the full purpose of God’s Word is made evident in what Christ is quoted as saying in John 4:34 (NKJ) “Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.’”

The Word of God is not merely an utterance, but “is living and powerful” as it says in Hebrews 4:12. When the Lord speaks, an event occurs. The Word produces action. The Word creates. The Word does. The Lord spoke the world into existence as it is recorded in Genesis. Whatever the Lord says, it is done. I do not dare think or say the Word of the Lord is a “force” but rather it is an “authority.” God is the Head of all things. He is supreme. As such, He has authority over all things. When the Lord speaks, His authority makes it happen.

As humans, our authority is limited. Truly, what do we have authority over? One of the few things we do have authority over is our flesh. When I want to lift my hand, I give the command and it is carried through my nerves to my hand. However, as you know, our authority over the flesh was corrupted by sin. Because of this, we have also become slaves to our flesh obeying the will of our flesh.

In your discussion, you also paralleled the “Word” and the “Will” as if they were one and the same. Let me challenge that thinking. The ‘will’ of a person is that which they desire to be done. The ‘word’ of a person is the expression of the ‘will.’ Lastly, ‘work’ would be the activity of the ‘word.’ I suppose we could also add ‘wisdom’ in that as well, stating that ‘wisdom’ is the discernment of the ‘will’. I believe ‘word’ and ‘work’ are united, for any ‘word’ that is not fulfilled or obeyed is disobedience or an act against the ‘will.’ Truly, the ‘word’ always seeks to do the ‘will.’ Of course, the difficulty comes in whose ‘will’ the word is performing.

In the case of humans, are we doing our will, the will of our flesh, the will of Satan, or the will of God? We were created to do the will of God, and unless we are doing the will of God, we are incomplete.

This leads me to a very bold statement you made in your discussion of which I would also like to challenge. You said that “We are the word of God.”

On the basis of what I stated above, that we were created to do the will of God, this would seem to be logical. And at a first glance, it seems rightly so. However, if that were the case, then what reason would there be for Jesus to be our King? Would not we already be King without Him?

In your discussion, you gave a beautiful discourse on Jesus being the Word of God. I appreciated and agreed with everything you said. Jesus is the expressed image of God. Jesus reveals God to us. However, in addition to this, you seem to have forgotten a most important statement from John, “The Word was God.” Jesus, The Word of God, is completely and fully God.

As such, by saying we are the Word of God, you are stating that we are God. This very statement is exactly what Satan tempted Eve with in the garden. This has been the temptation and the demise of humanity ever since. We are tempted to think we are the Word of God, and that our special purpose is to be God in the physical world, or to be the expression of God.

In Colossians 1:15(NKJ), Paul said, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” Jesus Christ is the image of God. He was the firstborn over all creation. I do think the word “over” is significant here as it establishes the Lordship of Christ. He is over all creation. There is none greater than He. In Genesis 1:27(NKJ) it says, “So God created man in His own image.” Notice the difference between this and the above. Jesus is the image of God. Humanity was created “in” God’s image. We were patterned after Christ. We are the likeness of the Word, but not the Word Himself.

As such, we were created to reflect Word of God much like the moon reflects the sun. We were not created to be the Word of God. This idea of “reflection” is spoke of by Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:18, “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.” We are to be transformed into the same image of Jesus Christ. We are not to be Jesus, but to be “in” His image.

At first, this may not seem to make logical sense. As you established in your discussion, it only seems logical that we should be revelation of God’s will and the character of God. You quoted 2 Corinthians 3:3 where Paul said, “You are an epistle of Christ” and Colossians 1:25 where Paul says “to fulfill the Word of God.” Indeed, we have been created as such that the Word of God may dwell in us, and by doing so, the light of Christ may be seen in us. However, this does not mean we are the ones who fulfill the Will of God by our own power. In other scriptures, Paul establishes that true obedience is not accomplished by our own power, but rather by the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, working in us. As such, we are not the ones who “fulfills” or completes the Word, rather we are a vessel by which God can work in.

This is our place. We are to abandon everything to Jesus Christ so that He may work in us. The power of His Spirit should have complete control and dominion in us so that we may reflect perfectly the light of Christ, God’s Word. This fulfillment comes not in our own power, but by the power of Christ living in us.

We were never created to be a whole and complete creature in and apart from God. In Genesis 2:18, after God had created Adam, it says, “It is not good that man should be alone.” Was Adam alone? Did he not have God? Adam was indeed alone because he had not yet been united as one with Christ. Adam did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of him. God was with Him as a friend externally, however, internally, Adam did not have union with God. As such, without the Word indwelling, Adam was incomplete. However, God knew this and had planned for this. In the garden were two trees, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge. Adam and Eve, however, did not eat from the tree of life whereby they would have been united as one with the Word. Instead, they ate from the tree of knowledge whereby they separated from God becoming an enemy with Him.

Our purpose was not to be God or to be God’s Word. Our purpose is best described in Revelation 21:9 where it says, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." We are the bride of Christ. We were created to share all things with Christ. We were not created to be the Word of God, but to submit unto the Word of God, so that we may reflect the glory of God.

The best way to this is to say we are vessels. We are empty vessels without Christ. We are full vessels with Christ. We bear witness to the Word of God. As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:3, we are “an epistle of Christ.” We are a living testimony of the Word of God. God has done a might and wonderful work inside of us through His Word Jesus Christ. We are a living testimony of this work.

As such, this also describes the bible. Humanity, witnesses of the Word, have written the bible. The bible is our testimony of the Word. The bible is extremely significant as it is a recording of past testimonies. These testimonies will shine forever in the Heavens like stars. They will endure forever. The bible doesn’t start or stop with 69 books. The bible is each believer. Those who testify to Christ will live forever to be a living testimony of the work of God.

In your discussion, you state the bible is “The Word of God.” Your entire basis for supporting such is to quote John 10:35 where a parallel is made. However, you do not recognize the parallel in full, neither do you support it with further scripture. The scripture says, “(NKJ)If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),” If you notice, Jesus is paralleling scripture with “to whom the word of God came.” This speaks of an event where the Word had come to a person. What was recorded was scripture, and as such, this is a testimony. Jesus did not parallel scripture to
The Word of God, or else He would not have included “to whom the word of God came”, rather He would have only said, “If He called them gods (and Scripture cannot be broken).” There would have been no need to establish that the Word of God came, if indeed what the person said was the Word of God.

In your presentation, you give a wonderful description of The Word of God. You describe this in and through Jesus. You give an awesome testimony to Christ. However, you then move the discourse directly into saying that the bible is The Word of God without explaining how this leap is made. I wish to challenge you. How do you make this leap? How is both the bible and Jesus the Word? Are they the one and the same? And in that regard, which bible is the Christ? Which one is the exact Word of God, complete and entirely in perfection?

Lastly, a question to ponder. Is the bible a revelation of God’s Nature (as you said about Christ), or is the bible a testimony to the revelation of God’s nature? Does the bible reveal or does it inform? (In case you don’t understand what I am getting at, it is simply this: there is an immense difference between having information about Christ and believing in Christ. To know Christ is more than just having knowledge about Him, it is being born again.)

In love and in Christ,
Blake

I fear you are muddying the water. If you have the right book about Ben F you can indeed find him (if he was living). It would take you right to his house. Likewise, a good map helps you find the way. But the map itself is not the city – I think that’s what you are trying to say.

Yes, my Bible alone is just a bunch of black blobs on paper. (Sorry to all who bury a Bible in the foundation of their home, for protection from demons)

Yet one can indeed find Christ in and through the Bible (God’s map – brilliantly laid out). It's far from meaningless to the unregenerate. Just ask pagans what the golden rule means to them. It reflects the very character of God.

How do you get to now anyone? It’s usually by them talking to you (among other ways). The Bible TALKS the very words of our Lord. Would we get to know him better if he spoke the same thing audibly?

The bible may lead a person to Christ. However, the bible will not save a person. Just the same, I may lead a person to Christ, but does that mean I saved them?

I used specifically the example of Ben Franklin because He is dead. There is no way you could say to me, "I know Ben Franklin." You do not know him. You know "of" him.

There are people who read the bible and say, "I know Jesus." Well, how do you know Jesus? "Because I have read the bible." Then you don't know Jesus. Have you been born again? Do you have the Spirit of Christ living in you?

How do you get to know a person? You interact with them. As such, a direct exchange is made without anything in between.

For example, there are many men who know my wife. There is only one man, me, who knows my wife intimately.

As a side note: the greek word for know is "Ginosko" which is the word used in Matt 7:23. In Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary, it says this about this word, "Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman." For a person to truly know Christ, they need to have an intimate and bonding experience with Him. They need to be united with Him as one.

The bible is a recording of the Word of God. It is not a direct exchange. It is intermediary. The Lord spoke, a man or woman recorded it, and thus we have scripture. We read scripture, but this is not a direct exchange. In fact, this is not an intimate experience at all.

When the Holy Spirit is living inside of you, there is a direct exchange. You have been united as one with Christ. There is nothing standing in the way of that relationship. You are connected to God. You know Jesus. As such, your entire life is shared with God, and it becomes an intimate experience with God.

You asked if we know him better if He spoke audibly? No. The only way to know God is through the indwelling of the Spirit.

Jesus was quoted as saying, "No one comes to the Father except through me." We cannot have any sort of relationship with God unless we have been born again. We do not know Jesus, unless we have been united as one with His Spirit.

The bible may increase our knowledge (as the word is used in our society, to increase the amount of our information) about God. However, it will not bring us closer to God. To become closer to Christ, we must abandon ourselves to Him. We must allow the Spirit to control, and allow Christ to have complete authority over us. We must give ourselves to Him.

Hope this helps,

Blake

However, it will not bring us closer to God.

Diane

Hi Diane,

There is the Christ in you revelation that Paul received. No one has received it before Paul.
The way God dealt with Israel if completely different to the way God is dealing with the Church the Body of Christ, is how we are new creatures in Christ Jesus, a new race of people, Christ Ones, Christians whom we were first call this in Antioch.

The last 50 years are just the adding together of the missing of the way God is dealing with the Church. The missing is that our salvation is not up to us. It is up to God, we are the ones the do it because of God not because of ourselves. That is why this phrase, "Whether the believer obeys or disobeys these duties has nothing to do with his salvation, but disobedience will cost him rewards and crowns at the Judgment Seat ..." In other words we are not under the Law anymore, we don't do to be what we are. That is the dispensation of Law which we no longer live under. We are saved by who we are because we believe what God says about His Son. Who are we? We are new creatures in Christ Jesus. This is now the Who, because of Christ in us. Now the Who we are becomes the "is not because we obey or disobey", The Who we are is because of the Grace of God and what we believe, to be who we are. So obeying or disobeying does not matter, because now who we are by believing makes us doers of Christ because of Who we are, not by what we do. The what we do is now because of Christ that has been born again in us. So to our salvation obeying and disobeying is not the object, the object is Christ. Christ in us is the obeying one. We love the law now and it cannot kill us anymore. The perfection of the Law is in Christ. Christ is in us, so what does that make us pertaining to the Law. How are we to be judged now that Paul's gospel has been revealed, by that gospel, which is Christ in you the hope of Glory.

Romans 2:14-16 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

We do the things of the Law because Christ is in our heart, the soul of a man, because Christ has been born again in the spirit of a man.

Study the rest of ROM 2, from 16 on. We see that it is not the Law that saves and cannot save. We see the Christ in us is the Law perfected and we now do it because we have Christ and Love Him because of His Love that is in us. We cannot do the Law without the perfection of the Law Himself now being our nature, as is the same, we cannot Love the Father without the Love of the Father in Christ Jesus be in us also. We are now the living Law and Love of God through Christ Jesus that is now our nature by birth, being born again in Christ.

This is what Peter is saying about Paul when he says "some things are hard to understand"
2 Peter 3:15-18 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

What are we to grow in? Grace. Law and Grace cannot mix unless the Law Himself is in the receiver of the Grace that made the Law Perfect.
Then Grace and Law are perfected in Him and made perfect righteousness by Him that is made righteousness by God in us. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Blake,

The Holy Spirit has confirmed everything you have said about the Word. I see exactly what you are speaking of and I know the living Word Himself and He is my Life. The Holy Spirit is the express Teacher of This Word Himself. Christ is the Word, the Living Word, and it takes the Holy Spirit to teach us the Life of Christ that has been born again in us. The bible is the written word of God, it is not a living Person, but the capacity of the written word to show us this living Christ that is born again in us is how God has chosen to reveal Himself, His Son and the Holy Spirit to us.

I have only one question: It sounds like you make the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit One Person in the God Head. I know that God is One and in the effect of dealing with man Three individual manifestations of The God Head. Do you believe the The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same manifestation? If the answer is yes, then who died on the Cross? If the answer is no, then the Holy Spirit is the Sealer of the Spirit of Christ that is birthed in us and the answered prayer of Jesus Christ and The Father answering the prayer by Pentecost to reveal the birthing of the Spirit of Christ in the believer.

I really do rejoice in your knowing The Christ in you the Hope of Glory and because of the Christ in me, I see the Christ in you by your word.

In Christ: Phillip

Dear Diane,

What DOES the Bible do for you?

The bible brings me closer to a mental understanding of God and His ways. The bible is good for instruction in righteousness, for an understanding of our(all of humanity) relationship to God, for teaching concerning God and His nature, and for directing me or encouraging me toward Christ. However, all of these matters a purely informational on the basis of taking in and learning information. None of these things are beneficial if I am unresponsive to Christ.

The Spirit of Christ that dwells inside of me is what draws me closer to God. In truth, it is what unites me with God. In reading the bible, I may open my heart and mind to God and thus drawing nearer to God. However, this was not due to reading the bible, but rather, the opening of my heart to God. There are times when I read the bible that my heart is closed, and instead of drawing near to God, I use it toward my selfish benefit. I don't want to do this, but I fight against evil principalities of this world.

There are other people who use the bible to push their own ideas on other people, to try and manipulate God to do what they want, and as an authority to control others. I do not think any of these people draw closer to God by reading the bible. Jesus warned of these false teachers and false prophets.

In 2 Timothy 3:16, Paul said, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof , for correction, for training in righteousness;" A key word in this scripture that everyone seems to glance over is the word "profitable." Paul said scripture is profitable. It is not necessary. Profit is extra. It is the icing on the cake. It is what you have when you have paid all your bills, and have taken care of everything that is necessary.

Scripture is not necessary for treaching, for reproof, for correction, or for training in righteousness. Scripture is profitable. It adds to this. Christ is necessary. Scripture is not.

However, the Church of our day and age has turned the bible into something necessary. In fact, many Church members have become entirely dependent upon the bible. The bible has become the foundation of the Church. The true cornerstone has been replaced.

The only way to draw closer to God is to abandon oneself entirely to Christ. You may know(as information) the teachings of Christ by reading the bible. However, the teachings of Christ will not be produced in you unless you have the Spirit of Christ in you. The teachings of Christ will not dwell in you and be known as true in you, unless Christ is in you. Reading the bible will not aid this process and will not make it happen. You cannot know God in Spirit and truth by reading the bible. Only Christ can do this. Only the indwelling of His Spirit can draw you nearer to God.

I not only believe this, I have given my life to it.

I pray that whoever reads this, God may grant them understanding as I cannot.

In Christ,
Blake

Dear Phillip,

Indeed, I agree. It is a wonderful gift that we may all share our Lord who unites us as one.

Your brother,
Blake

Beenblake, I appreciate you sharing as it helps me know where you are coming from - which essentially is this:

the Church of our day and age has turned the bible into something necessary. In fact, many Church members have become entirely dependent upon the bible. the bible has become the foundation of the Church.

As I said earlier, what SEEMS to be going on (ie too much trust in the Bible) is not what’s actually going on in the heart. The Pharisees were never accused of putting too much trust in the Torah, but of MISSING the truth in it. Their trust was in their works, and so they combed the word (obsessively) for a list of works – dos and don’ts. They couldn’t see anything else – like mercy.

The Bible is pretty good at defining the sins of mankind; and we never read about the sin of over-reliance on the Word.

I feel that, while you correctly assess troubling signs and symptoms, your etiology is faulty. That leads to a solution that has dangerous side-effects. You swing too far from the plumb-line.

You need a better microscope.

Diane

Hi Diane,

You left this out of your last post. Lets be understanding of each other and make sure we use all of each others posts.

"The true cornerstone has been replaced."

First I would like to say the I am totally dedicated to the authority of the Word of God, because Jesus authenticated and confirmed the established the written word. Without it, that is the word of God, the scriptures, we would have no authority and message from God. There are those that would desecrate the Word of God, that is not my purpose, but to elevate the Word to the perfection it brings us to in Christ Jesus and beyond into Oneness in Christ and sons' to our Father. The Holy Scriptures are the true Character and Nature of God by Whom we are saved.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. comprehended 2638. katalambano
Search for G2638 in KJVSL
katalambanw katalambano kat-al-am-ban'-o

from 2596 and 2983; to take eagerly, i.e. seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively):--apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain, perceive, (over-)take.

IT NOT.

1. In this who is the Light? 2. Who is the darkness?
3. In Whom is life? 4. Who did not comprehend the light? 5. Most of all Who is the Word.

1. The light is Christ. 2. The darkness is man. 3. In Christ is life. 4. Man did not understand. 5. The Word is Christ.

If the Word is Christ, is the bible Christ, or is the Bible to bring us to Christ? Then we must go on into perfection in Christ because doctrine is to show us the elementary principles of salvation. So once we are saved by doctrine, we must go on into perfection, which is beyond the bible and doctrine and trying to stay in this in our salvation by the bible in itself we are putting Christ to shame. We cannot change these principle into perfection, we must go on into greater wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption or we are falling away from what Christ was intended to be, which is our life and perfection in all that we are, and by staying in these elementary principles we cannot be renewed again in them because we stay in them and won't go on into Christ.

Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is one of the hardest parts of The Word to understand and without the Holy Spirit and The Spirit of Christ being the perfection we are seeking not just the bible, this particular part of the scriptures the unlearned in the things of Christ beyond doctrine, use this to say we can loose our salvation. As a dead book being what we call the bible, and using it as the basis for all that we are will never lead us beyond the bible into the Living Word of God Himself, which is Christ in us and us in Christ. There is knowledge of the bible and there is the Knowledge of Christ in us the Living Word of God.
The bible is supposed to lead us into this Wisdom of Christ but the Church is stagnated in the bible knowledge and that keeps it on the milk. The counsel of church wants to take Father out of the bible and replace it with Father/mother and all else that brings discrimination to women. This is exactly what I am talking about, making the bible something much less that what it truly is, making it in itself, that is the Bible mans' crippled standard of the word of god.

In Christ; Phillip

Phillip said,

Then we must go on into perfection in Christ ...

None of these things are beneficial if I am unresponsive to Christ..

Many of the teachings you describe, Phillip, have been taught for years. Yet we don’t see the intended end product. We see a lot of denial - hiding behind cherished doctrines; we see easy believism – where sin is covered up with cheep grace. We see the Bible being used profusely (abused) , just as Beenblake observes.

I say, there has been a lot of ADDING to the Word. And those ADDITIONS have become the foundation. The dispensational segments are not explicitely defined in the Bible. So, I say, stay away from it. It was someone's imagination. Stick to the pure word, without creating volumes of complicated explanations that bog the mind and obscure the simple truth. Phillip says:

"The true cornerstone has been replaced - " [by] mans' crippled standard of the word of god.

This gives justifiable reason for the Beenblakes of our world to be concerned about Biblical over-indulgence. And so Biblical Indulgencism gives rise to Beenblakism and vice-versa. (boy, my mind is getting wild) I guess I’m concerned about this typical bent of forming reactionary tangents – where people lean too far to one side in order to pull us back towards balanced truth. In time the over-correction gets more and more off-center, and you get polarized “truth”. You end up with a lot of fine-sounding doctrine made by ADDING and SUBTRACTING but you don’t see the power of godliness. And you don’t see the “perfecting of the saints” . Really, you don’t see a lot of evidence of true salvation.

This is where I see Christendom today.

Scripture is meant to function like a mirror for us – to help us see ourselves clearly. Yes, the Spirit brings truth to light, and empowers us towards godly living, but we can sure resist God’s Spirit by refusing to fully trust his Word and what it reaveals to us. We can be quite deluded about ourselves. Only God knows my own blinders, and to what extent I still do not know myself. I trust his Spirit to continue to open my eyes, and bring me into deeper repentance.

All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right. It is God's way of preparing us in every way, fully equipped for every good thing God wants us to do Tim 3:16 (NLT)

Blessings to all,
Diane

Diane,

You wrote:

"""Many of the teachings you describe, Phillip, have been taught for years. Yet we don’t see the intended end product. We see a lot of denial - hiding behind cherished doctrines; we see easy believism – where sin is covered up with cheep grace. We see the Bible being used profusely (abused) , just as Beenblake observes."""

Is this not the reason for reasoning behind Paul's statement in Heb 6. We have all these things but we now must go into perfection in Christ Jesus. Why would God birth a Perfect Seed in such a Lost and sinful container? It is the only means by which any could be saved. It is truly Christ in us that is our Hope of glory, nothing else. We have missed it and chosen the base thing of this world to make us who we are. We must seek first the Kingdom of God and then all these things will be added unto us. What things? The things that are heavenly, and the first thing we must seed is the Christ that has been born again in us for He is the Kingdom of God and He will and is ruling that Kingdom Now, in the saints that this mystery has been revealed to and now, in the saints on this earth in His earthly Kingdom when it comes into glory with the mystery saints ruling with Him over His kingdom on this earth.

There is a mystery that no one knew, because the Word says so. That mystery is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

It was hidden, if they had it and didn't know it then it must be revealed to them. From Paul's gospel it has been revealed by Christ to Paul and from Paul to us, revealed by the Holy Spirit, that we might know it now and have the mystery revealed in us now. Paul reaches the in Christ mystery, by mentioning it 146 times in he letters. How much more do we need, if we sit and say "in Christ" 146 times do you think we will get it. It takes the Holy Spirit to give this revelation and the truth of it, Ask for Bread, He won't give us a stone, but it is there, we are truly New Creatures in Christ Jesus. Pray that we understand this amazing miracle of God. We Have Jesus Christ In Us, and every Knee should bow, and all kneeling in tears that we have forsaken our first Love and not embraced Him that is ourselves.

1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip said,

I would like to say the I am totally dedicated to the authority of the Word of God,

Hi Diane,

I am only able to say that I am dedicated to the Word of God, because the Word of God is Christ, and it is Him that dedicated His Life to that end. You picked up on what I have been saying all along. It is the Christ in me that makes this possible. If it were up to me I would fail just like everyone up to the Cross failed, also all those since the Cross fail if they don't understand that it is the Christ in them that is only able to give the believer the capacity and ability to Make Christ, The Word, the center of the life of the Believer. Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It is Christ in the believer that does it all. All He did on the Cross is finished. By His birth in us, it is now up to us beyond the Cross to finish the Good Work He has started in us.

We are the ones to serve the law of God. With the Law of God Himself being in us we can by the Mind of Christ serve the Law of God, Like Paul: "I myself serve"

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

With the Mind of Christ we can control the Flesh, since it has been quickened by the Holy Spirit to give the Mind of Christ the Power in the believer to do it.

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Did we die with Christ? Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ" yet I live, it is no longer I who live but Christ liveth in me,

1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: I am not calling you a fool, I was the fool until I understood I was quickened by the Spirit and able truly by the Incorruptable Seed of the Word of God Himself, Jesus Christ, and dedicate by His Power in my life to living in Christ by His Life that is in me.

We cannot be quickened unless we die, we must see ourselves dead on the Cross with Christ. That is the only way His resurrection becomes alive in our living the Word of God, Which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Answer for Daine,

""I sure would not like to make that claim about myself. Only God knows where my heart is still loyal to faulty beliefs.
Diane""

You can make that claim about yourself, because you have an Advocate with The Father and He is birthed in you, He is now your life, Jesus Christ Himself born again in you.

If you do sin, the Advocate is there and God is Faithful and Justified in forgiving you and cleansing you from all unrighteousness, by the Righteousness of Christ The Father has made in you.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Why is God Faithful and Justified to forgive us?
This is the complete answer: Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip

You can make that claim about yourself, because you have an Advocate with The Father and He is birthed in you, He is now your life, Jesus Christ Himself born again in you.

You desire truth in the inward parts. Ps. 51:6

Diane

You can make that claim about yourself, because you have an Advocate with The Father and He is birthed in you, He is now your life, Jesus Christ Himself born again in you.

This must be balanced with this kind of a heart.
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

If you believe the scriptures and they say loud and clear that Christ is in you. That in itself says you are the express image of Christ. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

Then knowing we are in this world and we are as Christ is, know this we must not think it robbery being as Christ is, that we are equal with Him as the only Begotten Son of God, but by Him because it is God's intension we think of ourselves as son's of God. Galatians 4:6-7 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. We cannot glory in ourselves being son's of God, but we can glory in Christ in us our Hope of Glory of Him making us son's. That is why Jesus Christ is the advocate with the Father for us.

I am not creating a doctrinal system. This is the Word of God. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Do you believe this scripture and this one also?

This one Paul says fulfills the Word of God.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the Word of God. What do you think it says?

In Christ: Phillip

The Bible is pretty good at defining the sins of mankind; and we never read about the sin of over-reliance on the Word.

Quite the contrary. The bible speaks in depth on idoltary.

I am not talking about a mere "over-reliance on the Word." I am talking about a replacement of Jesus with the bible. Just the sheer fact that you call the bible "the Word" is a replacement. Jesus is the Word. When you call the bible, "the Word", you are calling the bible, Jesus. You are saying "the bible" is equal to Jesus.

In your heart, you may not mean this. However, from out of your mouth comes this comparison. This message may keep another person from coming to Christ. A person, who needs Jesus, may turn to the bible thinking they will find what they need. Instead of finding Jesus, they will just learn about Him. In order to find Jesus, they must go to Him. They must submit to Him, not merely to His teachings.

what SEEMS to be going on (ie too much trust in the Bible) is not what’s actually going on in the heart.

Let me make a clear distinction here. When I say the "Church," I am referring to the organization. I am referring to every person that is identified as a member here on earth. However, the Church is filled with tares and wheat. There is a body of believers, true believers that are in fact new creations in Christ, filled with God's Spirit. All those who are truly God's people, who indeed have the Spirit of God, are not committing idoltary. Their heart has been transformed to the likeness of Christ. Their heart is pure. For this I agree with you.

However, there are a great many people in the Church who think they are saved but are really not. Some of these people (whom I cannot identify) have made the bible an idol in their heart. These people are the ones I am most concerned as I do not wish anyone to enter Hell. Some of these are decieved by the lie that the bible is the Word of God.

The Church body, both true believers and false, has embraced the bible as "The Word of God." The bible is not "The Word of God." In addition, they have elevated it to the height of diety granting it authority over all things it touches. The bible has no authority apart from Christ.

While true Christians worship Christ in their heart, having a pure heart and spirit that has been transformed by Christ, they are still capable of sin. We are still capable of believing in lies, promoting lies, and teaching lies. The Church, as a body of wheat and tares, has gone wayward. We have accepted false teachings and adopted them as doctrine. This must change.

I feel that, while you correctly assess troubling signs and symptoms, your etiology is faulty. That leads to a solution that has dangerous side-effects. You swing too far from the plumb-line.

Alas, my dear sister, this diagnosis is not of my own. This was given to me by the Lord. I once accepted, just as the populace, that the bible is The Word. However, the Lord changed me and weighed this heavy upon my heart.

The Church has many "troubling signs and symptoms" as you say. We can all observe this. We need our Lord desperately to come back. We always have.

I am in no position to tell anyone what "their" problem is or to diagnose the Church's troubles either. I see things that don't sit well with me, but who am I? I am not a Savior or a doctor or Lord. I can only do that which my Lord has commanded me. And this is what He has asked of me. This is where He has placed me.

For each of us, He has a place. We should each seek to be in that place He has for us. What better place to be than perfectly in the hands of our Lord, being shaped like clay, pushed and pulled into His awesome work!!!

As a last statement of humility, if I am not following Christ, I pray He will change my course.

I leave all things to Him.

In love,
Blake

Hi Blake,

How can we reconcile these scriptures which say many books are are of futility. Study to be quiet. Study to be approved. What are we to study and what are we to disregard?

Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh.

1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In Christ: Phillip

Beenblake said:

In order to find Jesus, they must go to Him. They must submit to Him, not merely to His teachings.

Consider this: If you really trusted in me, would you not also fully trust what I say about myself? (If I could be trustworthy about my self-perception) Are my words and my thoughts not literally part of me? Why the dichotomy?

Are Christ's words not literally a part of him? Are we not indeed experiencing Christ when we are assimilating his words?

Can we not fully trust the Bible and the words of Christ to reveal the real Christ, and protect us from trusting in a self-created version of Christ?

I am not talking about a mere "over-reliance on the Word." I am talking about a replacement of Jesus with the bible.

I would like to emphasize that there is a huge difference between putting one’s trust in what one THINKS the Scripture says, and what it actually says. You don’t seem to emphasize that difference. I wonder if you believe that.

When you call the bible, "the Word", you are calling the bible, Jesus.

I highly suspect that if you had been hanging around our liberal churches for several years, you would have a different perspective. You would be preaching towards a deeper trust in the Word. And you would see how a statement such as this is deadly:

Some of these are deceived by the lie that the bible is the Word of God.

While our liberal churches are quickly dying away as a result of their distrust in the Word, this belief continues to lurk, though subtly, in our ever-growing conservative antimomian environments. Essentially the hidden agenda is: "We don't need the Bible, we need Christ." And so a hunger for experience replaces a hunger for truth.

Now, I know that you are not condoning this trend, yet I fear that this easily becomes a bi-product of your message.

Diane

Phillip said,

If you believe the scriptures and they say loud and clear that Christ is in you. That in itself says you are the express image of Christ. 1Jo 4:17

So, since Christ is perfect, then I am perfect. Hey, I like that! I always wanted to be perfect, so no one would criticize me. Now, don’t you dare tell me I am wrong about anything – because really, I’m perfect from God’s point of view – and that's all that counts.

.... see where I'm going?

Diane

Is Christ in you? Is He perfect? Amen.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If we sin not, are we perfect? Christ has been born again in us so we won't sin. But If we do He is the Advocate with the Father that IF a man sin and we confess God is faithful and Just to forgive, and also cleans us from all unrighteousness. Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. As many as be perfect are those that believe and Christ has been born again in them. He is the perfect One making us perfect ones'. The final perfecting act is when we get a new body like His. It must be planted in corruption and raised incorruption. All the rest is made perfect by Him in us. I we died in corruption of our mind and spirit, or we have no salvation. We are already dead to sin and our spirit is His Spirit.

In Christ crucified with Him: Phillip

Dear Diane,

Why the dichotomy?

There is no dichotomy, I think you are misunderstanding.

In John 3:34, John the baptist is quoted as saying that Jesus's words are God's words. Jesus is the Word of God, and the Words He spoke are the Word of God. By this I agree. Jesus in whole, not in part, is the Word of God, and everything about Him is the perfect revelation of God.

The bible, however, is a recording of Jesus speaking and acting. Jesus is God's perfect revelation of Himself. Jesus revealed Himself to the 12 apostles. These apostles in turn wrote down what they heard and saw. These writings have become the bible. The final result is a testimony of Jesus.

The writings we have are not God's revelation of Himself. Jesus is God's revelation of Himself. The bible is our testimony of that revelation. Jesus is perfect. The bible is not.

It would be no different if Christ came to me and said "Tell Diane I love her." And then I went to you and said, "Diane God loves you." God did in fact say it. However, you cannot deny the fact it was coming from me. In order for you to believe, you would first have to have a certain amount of trust in me. In this little scenario, there is one problem. I become an in-between. I become a wedge between you and God. Sure, God did speak through me. However, your relationship with God is based upon a reliance of me as the messenger acting in-between. You are not hearing God's Word directly from God. Rather, you are hearing a recording or a testimony. Indeed, you may believe what I said because you believe me. However, the real question is, do you believe in God(emphasis on the word "in")? Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

If your relationship is based upon the writings of the bible, then there is no relationship. You are not experiencing the Word of God. You are experiencing a copy. You are not experiencing the real thing. You are reading the experience others have had with Him.

Are Christ's words not literally a part of him? Are we not indeed experiencing Christ when we are assimilating his words?

Yes. However, think of it like this.

Let's say you and I work in the same building. I have never met you. I have never heard your voice, seen your face, had any sort of encounter or experience with you at all. However, I have heard all about you. Every person here talks about you. They all speak the truth, but all I have ever known of you is what other people said. They have quoted you precisely, and told me so much, I feel like I know you. However, would you say that I have a relationship with you? Would you say I am friends with you? Would you say that I am your lover?

Though I know about you, I do not know you. Unless I have had a real encounter, a real experience with you, I do not know you.

It seems like you are assuming that those who refer to the bible "the Word" do not actually place their trust in Christ but are using the Bible as a fetish. That is a huge generalization.

Please do not mistake me. I am not saying such. I do not know what is in a person's heart. It is not my place to judge. I am only point out the error which proceeds from the mouth. If a person says, "the bible is The Word of God" they are speaking in error. To say such a thing is make the bible equivalent with Christ. It is not.

There are many Christians who are God's chosen people who indeed have been perfected in Christ that are promoting and preaching this lie. They do so because they have been deceived. They are not at fault. The teachings have been passed on by false teachers. However, these lies are being taught throughout Christendom. The Lord will not let them persist. He has allowed it for a time in order to serve His purpose. However, He will not let His people wander blindly forever.

I highly suspect that if you had been hanging around our liberal churches for several years, you would have a different perspective.

I have already been in such a situation, and I do understand what you saying. Our works should be a fruit of what is in the heart. Our motivation should be a desire to serve Christ and none other.

As Christians, even though we have been changed internally, we still have the ability to sin. We can still do things our way apart from Christ. There are many Christians who produce works as a matter of earning rewards. They follow the bible as a law. "Just do as the bible says." They follow the bible in deed, while their heart slowly falls away from the Lord. A upright, Church-going, bible reading Christian becomes spiritually depressed so much so, they have suicidal thoughts. They don't realize this depression has ensued because they have drifted far from Christ. They try to mend it by reading the bible more and more, but the words have no impact. Nothing seems to help, as they slowly fade off into more self reflection.

Our works should be natural. We should not follow by obligation. We should follow by desire. We should want to be righteous. We should seek Christ eagerly. If a person is obeying Christ by obligation or guilt, then they are motivated by the wrong reasons. They should be motivated by love. They should want to sacrifice everything and give it to Jesus because He loved us first. He gave His life for us.

And you would see how a statement such as this is deadly:

People are under this odd impression that if the bible was taken away, we would all do whatever we wanted and become extremely sinful and wicked. Why is that? Do you not realize what you are saying? You are saying you live under law. If Christ is truly living inside of us and we have submitted to Him, whether we have the bible or not, we will be living in accord with His ways and teachings.

Our works should be a product of Christ in us. Our works should be a reflection of Christ in us. They should not be forced. For example....recently I felt as though I was playing too many video games. It was taking up a great deal of my time. My wife said to me, "Well then, why don't you designate certain hours of which you can play, and certain hours that you won't play." I said to her, "I will not do that. My desire should be for Christ. If I set up certain times to play, then I am only stopping not because I really want to, but because I am forcing myself. If I do this, then during those hours I will sit there and think constantly about the game. I will still be playing it in my heart, even though I am not playing it in action. Instead, I will pray and ask Christ to change my nature. I will wait for Him to change my desire. I want to stop playing because my desire is changed. I want my actions to be pure of heart. I want them to be true." I did this, and Christ has changed me. Lately, I my desire to play the game has diminished. I have been playing much less.

If I had sat down and said, "I will stop playing video games because the bible say this and that" then my motives would be all wrong. If my motives are pure, then my actions will be true.

If a person is truly following Christ and submitting to Him in ways, they will be acting perfectly in deed. They will also be at perfect peace. There will be no conflict within them. This is our ultimate goal, to abandon ourselves entirely to Christ so that our every action is of Him. When we reach this point, we do not think about what we do. We do not think about how to follow Christ. We just follow Him naturally. Our nature is the nature of Christ because Christ has complete control over us.

This cannot happen by obeying the bible or submitting to the bible. This can only happen by the power of the Holy Spirit inside of us.

And so, this message I am preaching is not deadly at all. In fact, it is quite the opposite. I am telling people to depend and rely on Christ entirely.

I believe that if a person is truly abandoned to Christ, they will not reject the bible. They will not cast the witness of the bible at all. Rather, they will see the truth in the bible. The closer we draw to Christ, the clearer our vision becomes. A person who has abandoned everything to Christ will read the bible and say, "I know this is true. I know it is true because I know Jesus Christ. He has confirmed this in me." As such, they will obey the teachings of the bible in truth, because of Christ inside.

However, a person who is without Christ, or fallen far from Him, will read the bible and only see what they want to see.

The biggest problem I have encountered in speaking with conservatives or liberals is this: a person will believe what they want to believe. It doesn't matter what the bible says, it doesn't matter what I say, it doesn't matter what reason and logic says, it doesn't matter what Jesus says. People will believe what they want to believe.

You can show a person the truth, but will they believe it? Will they be open and receptive to it?

This is true even among the true followers of Christ, those who have His Spirit. Even though we have His Spirit, we will still reject Him. God's greatest struggle in dealing with His children is spending hours, days, months, and years waiting for us to open our hearts and listen. He allows us to go about our way, doing what we think is best, until we stumble and fall calling out for help. He then comes in to save us and show us the truth.

If we would just fall on our knees in humility and submit unto Christ, then the Lord would have free reign to open our eyes to everything. However, we like to stick with what we most feel comfortable. We like the teachings and doctrines we have refined and studied for years.

On a last note, I am not saying the bible is untrustworthy. I am not saying we should discard the bible or it's teachings. What I am saying is that we need to keep the bible in proper perspective. Our desire should be first and foremost for Christ. We should seek first Christ. He should be our treasure. If we are doing this, then we will find the bible to be true and trustworthy. We will live in accord with the teachings of the bible naturally, as a result of the Spirit working in us. We should acknowledge that our Lord is our authority. We should acknowledge Jesus first in all things.

You are correct to say this is a matter of the heart. A person may be keeping Christ first. I know many who hold Christ above all things. However, they still say, "The bible is The Word of God." What they don't realize is that this statement is harmful to people who don't have Christ, or who have His Spirit but are far from Him. People who don't have Jesus will turn to the bible trying to find Him. People who are far from Him will turn to the bible in order to find Christ. We are constantly pointing people to the bible when we need to be teaching and instructing them ourselves.

If a person doesn't know Christ, then how can they properly read the bible? The bible needs to be discerned spiritually. If a person doesn't have the bible, then they will read it and either reject it, or see what they want to see (misinterpretation).

If a person is far from Christ, then how can they properly read the bible? They bible needs to be discerned spiritually. If a person is far from Christ and rejecting Him, then the Spirit will not be able to help them read the truth inside of it.

We first need to turn to Christ, the true Word of God, and abide in Him. If we abide in Christ, He will abide in us. With Christ in us, we will know the truth. We will read the bible, and we will know His voice. We will not be lead astray.

You are correct to say the bible points to Christ. However, we cannot see this truth unless we first have Christ in us. We need to first abandon ourselves to the Word of God, so that God's Word dwells in us. Then, with the guidance of the Spirit, we can understand and do all things.

However, people will not understand this truth if we say the bible is "The Word" making it equal with Christ. Jesus is God's Word. The bible is a testimony to Jesus.

I hope this helps,

In Christ,
Blake

Beenblake said:

"The bible is The Word of God." What they don't realize is that this statement is harmful to people who don't have Christ, or who have His Spirit but are far from Him.
People who don't have Jesus will turn to the bible trying to find Him. People who are far from Him will turn to the bible in order to find Christ We are constantly pointing people to the bible when we need to be teaching and instructing them ourselves.

Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Mat 4:4
Where are these words? Where is God’s mouth? I need to know because I need these words for my survival.

Diane

Hi Blake,

I still have not grasped exactly what you are saying, I am slow but I will try to listen intently. What do we do with the written word of God? Is it no the bible ruled over by the Holy Spirit and kept true in the heart of the believer which is the Promise of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This seems pretty conclusive the the written word of God is true and should not be added to our taken away from. Is it not the Holy Spirits responsibility to teach us from the Word of God. Where does it say the Bible is not the Word of God.

This seems to be up to the Holy Spirit to keep the word true to the very word Himself, that is Jesus Christ. Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Where do we get information in our mind? Is it not by hearing or reading?

I know exactly what you are saying about the bible, with all its different translations and our different paraphrases of it, it is almost to the point that you don't even know where to turn or which one to read to get the written word of God which is for us and has been since the 10 commandments were written on tablets of stone, by the Hand of God.

By creating a rift between the bible and Christ it is and will cause dedicated and pointed trouble with new believers and even those that are supposed to be on the meet and not on milk.
I believe that the emphasis should be on trusting the Holy Spirit to keep us pure and true when it comes to the bible, that is the word of God, and trust God for His capacity to keep His Word pure in our hearts. Jesus said, "The gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church the Body of Christ." The bible has given me absolute truth and I am still learning the word of God by using it. The Holy Spirit has many times changed the written words that I read and makes them compatible with the Spirit of Christ that is in me. I expect ant trust Him to keep doing the work He is doing in me, and all who believe. Don't throw our the baby with the dishwater. The Bible is and always will be the way God seems to be using to bring forth salvation in those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, until Jesus Himself is sitting on the Throne in the Holy City ruling and reigning as King over all, us reigning with Him over His Kingdom.

You have not made your claim of the bible is not the real word of God to be of effect in what you are meaning. Please continue with your supposition and maybe we can under stand better what God is doing through you. Very long post are not the answer. To the point of each different thought in the truth that you are wanting us to understand is easier to grasp, that is like the Line upon Line and Precept upon Precept being the way the Holy Spirit teaches us truth.

Isaiah 28:9-14 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

In Christ: Phillip

I know exactly what you are saying about the bible, with all its different translations and our different paraphrases of it, it is almost to the point that you don't even know where to turn or which one to read to get the written word of God which is for us and has been since the 10 commandments were written on tablets of stone, by the Hand of God, also Paul: 1 John 2:12-14 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

We have to read writing to hear the Word of God.
If we did not have the Bible what would we do?
In Christ: Phillip

beenblake's

You claim to have been born again, do you not? And in the process, you have recieved the Holy Spirit, have you not? Thus, in your daily activity and exercise, you are inspired by God, are you not? Does this make you infalliable? Are you perfect and without error?

The original text of the bible was written by men and women who were not Jesus Christ. They were not perfect and infallible. Explain to me how these men and women could possibly write perfectly what God has told them? Did God dictate these words to them, and then force them to write exactly as He wished?

Having identified 'the scriptures' we can turn to Paul's word to Timothy.“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
(2Tim 3:15-16 KJVS) This includes the statement that 'all scripture' (and we know that means Genesis to Malachi, was God-breathed. It came, in the idiom, from the mouth of God. This is a truth expressed throughout the scripture in many ways. 'the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah' etc. The Holy Spirit spoke by the mouth of David. etc.

I suggest you watch my '[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2883385409335151265&hl=en]from Judas to da Vinci video[/url], especially the last chapter to understand what an extraordinary thing it was for Jews to 'add' the writings of Paul and others to 'the scripture'.

As regards the mechanics, I don't believe in dictation but I do believe that God so oversaw the whole operation that what came from the prophet's mouth is exactly what would have come from God's mouth if God had been that prophet. Consequently we have the identity of the prophet visible through the words that God gave inspired within him.

Indeed, the bible was inpsired by God and the Holy Spirit recalled events during their writing. However, did the Holy Spirit rape them of their will? Or did these men and women submit willing unto their Lord writing as they were directed, but with error as they were with error?

Dear Philologos,

God never promised me infallibility but He promised it to the apostles.

I have not heard this before. How do you defend such a claim? Maybe I have missed something in scripture.

This is intemperate and inappropriate language. Do doubt it was intended to shock. It does not shock me but it does sadden me. I can't even imagine the kind of mind that would associate the work of the Spirit with rape.

The use of the word "rape" was not used to shock. In fact, it is a rather appropriate word for the word connotes the use of violence to force someone to do something against his/her will. The question presented was to encourage thought. Would the Spirit do such a thing? Obviously not, as rape is not something the Spirit would do. And since God did not force His Word upon any of the prophets and apostles, we must consider the individual will of each in the equation.

The point of such was to establish this: the prophets and apostles would have had to submitted unto God 100% in order to present an infallible message. They would have been perfect and infallible.

I would argue that only Jesus Christ did such a thing. However, you have already stated a claim otherwise.

This includes the statement that 'all scripture' (and we know that means Genesis to Malachi, was God-breathed.

And if I accept this claim, then what of the book of enoch as referrenced by the apostle James? What of the other books that were widely accepted by the Church until the protestant reformation? They were even a part of the King James version, but later rejected. Are not those God-breathed too?

My point is this....how am I to know? By what am I to discern what is truth and what is not?

As regards the mechanics, I don't believe in dictation but I do believe that God so oversaw the whole operation that what came from the prophet's mouth is exactly what would have come from God's mouth if God had been that prophet.

I agree with you on this. I do believe the same. I do not believe the bible is precisely the word of God. However, within the bible is a message of God, inspired of God, given by God, and proclaimed by God. In this, it can be said the bible is the Word of God. However, to say the bible is inspired of God and the bible is the Word of God, is two very different statements, don't you think so?

In addition to this, if the bible is perfect in message, it is possible for it to be imperfect in word. The message is contained perfectly. It is the message of Christ. It is the good news. This message is not only told in the bible, but it is told in the life of each believer. Each of us are a walking testimony of Christ.

However, each of us are imperfect. Our words are imperfect. The bible was written in the words of human beings inspired by God. This, I believe is absolutely essential. It demonstrates and shows the relationship of God and man, which was perfected in Christ. It also demonstrates the power of God to use our weaknesses to bring about His glory.

I suppose it comes down to a matter of connotation. By saying "word" do we mean the literal word for word that proceeds from a person's mouth. Or are we speaking of the message they are trying to communicate. Of course, the message is preserved when the exact words are recorded.

I believe the bible was indeed inspired by God. However, the exact words of the bible came through men. The words, the literal words of the bible, are the words of men. The message of the bible is the message of God to all.

However, in our day and culture, when you say the bible is the "Word of God" it is taken to mean literally. I see this as a problem causing many people to be lead astray from Christ.

My wish is that all people are saved. And my concern is that people are walking rightly in the Lord.

In Christ,
Blake

By the way...

Thank you philologos for taking the time to write back. I will take a look at that video when I have time.

May Christ be yours,
Blake

Quote Beenblake

[i]Scripture is a testimony of the Word of God. It is not the Word of God. Rather, Christ is the Word of God. Scripture testifies about Christ.[/i]

If Scripture is not the Word of God, It IS NOT a testimony of God. Without the written Word, the living Word is only a figment. They carry equal weight.

Harold Lindsell's "Battle for the Bible" helps quite a bit over this issue. I can really see the powerful influence of Karl Barth first hand from this thread. Quite bothersome.

Philogos and Diane, praise God for your discernment and knowledge. In my mind, undermining the written Word equates assaulting the living Word.

Blake, downplaying and separating Christ from the Word is a dangerous call.

I'm a believer in 100% inerrancy and infallibility, though I don't know or understand all of Scripture, with God's help and by His grace, the Holy Spirit will continue to teach me till I die.

This thread reminds me of Gresham Machen's warfare, followed by F.Schaeffer's in the early 90s.

what of the book of enoch as referrenced by the apostle James?

James never claimed that Enoch was part of scripture. He just mentioned it. Never said it was inspired. Paul quoted pagan philosophers and Luke mentioned the use of other sources, but that doesn't make those inspired scripture. Enoch isn't included because it was never accepted as being scripture from the ealiest canonization. It didn't meet the criteria.

same goes for the apocrypha found in the 1611 KJV. Those books weren't canonized to begin with. From what I understand, they were only added due to political pressure...but they were still labeled as apocryphal...not inspired by the mouth of God.

James never claimed that Enoch was part of scripture. He just mentioned it. Never said it was inspired. Paul quoted pagan philosophers and Luke mentioned the use of other sources, but that doesn't make those inspired scripture. Enoch isn't included because it was never accepted as being scripture from the ealiest canonization. It didn't meet the criteria.

same goes for the apocrypha found in the 1611 KJV. Those books weren't canonized to begin with. From what I understand, they were only added due to political pressure...but they were still labeled as apocryphal...not inspired by the mouth of God.

I made a mistake, it was the apostle Jude. And indeed, he never made a claim that the book of Enoch was scripture. Instead, he quoted from the book of Enoch in order to support His arguments, much like we do with scripture today. If the bible is 100% perfect and infallible, then the quote taken from the book of Enoch would also be 100% perfect and infallible. If the book of Enoch is endorsed by the bible, used as an authority by which to defend an argument, and it is the Word of God, then would not the book of Enoch also be the Word of God?

Many people want to say the cannonized book of the bible is complete, perfect, and final. If it is complete, perfect, and final, then why is it missing pieces? Where is the scripture Jude was talking about when He said, "9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!'" Where is this missing scripture?

I am not saying the bible is false. I love the bible and believe it is a gift from God. However, there is a big misconception that the bible is a perfect and infallible book. As though, word for word, it is a complete authority on all things. This is not true. If the bible was completely perfect in word, and a complete authority on all things, then it would be perfect. There would be no error or discrepency anywhere. It would be a complete book. It is not. The bible is missing scripture. The bible has many errors in the details. It is not perfect and infallible.

In love,
Blake

Dear Diane,

I am sorry, but I seemed to have missed your post somehow. I hope it is not too late to reply.

So our words should have more weight than Scripture? This would seem to encourage trust in man.

Our words should not have more weight, but they should be equal and in agreement with scripture. On the night I was saved, the Word of God came through all the disciples of Christ whom I met that evening. They each were filled with the Holy Spirit and used by God to testify of Christ. When I recieved this testimony, the Holy Spirit began to convict me of my sin, and this lead me to give my life to Christ.

The point of this is to realize that Christ can use you if you make yourself available to Him. The Word of God lives inside of you. Your life is a testimony. You are a walking and living bible. Everyone that knows you hears this testimony because of the Spirit living inside of you.

It is not that people are trusting in you. They see Jesus in you. Because of this, they will also desire to seek out Christ because of what He has done in you.

Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Mat 4:4
Where are these words? Where is God’s mouth? I need to know because I need these words for my survival.

John 6:35(NAS)
"Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.'"

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. That is the whole point. You cannot live on bread alone. You need to have Christ in you. He is the bread of life. In the model prayer, Jesus said, "Give us this day our daily bread." This is not a physical request, it is a spiritual one. Jesus was telling us to ask for Him. When we pray, we should ask Jesus to come into us daily. We need His life inside of us, so that we may live.

Jesus is the Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

John 6:33(NAS)
"For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."

Please, don't mistake my message. I am not saying the bible is useless or pointless. I am saying it has been placed in the wrong perspective. The bible is inspired of God and did come from God. The Lord has preserved it over the years, and it will be fulfilled.

The bible bears a message from God. This message was given to messengers, prophets and apostles. The prophets and apostles then recorded what they heard and saw. This record, what we call scripture, is not the words of God, but it does bear witness to the Word of God. This message is from God.

What we must understand, however, is that Jesus is the Word of God. We must be completely and totally dependent on Him.

In love,
Blake

The point of such was to establish this: the prophets and apostles would have had to submitted unto God 100% in order to present an infallible message. They would have been perfect and infallible.

Dear Philologos,

So how is submission 'rape'?

I think there is a great misunderstanding. I am not equating the work of the Holy Spirit with rape. I was proposing a question which was "Did the Holy Spirit rape them of their will?" Obviously, the answer is no. The Holy Spirit would not do such a thing as He is Holy.

The above question then followed with this question: "Or did these men and women submit willing unto their Lord writing as they were directed, but with error as they were with error?"

My point was to establish that the writers of the bible submitted willing unto the Lord. As such, in order for the bible to be perfectly recorded, their submission would have to be perfect. The writers of the bible were obviously not perfect as only Christ is perfect. (Only God is good.) Since the writers of the bible were not perfect, then how is it possible the recording of the bible perfect?

Think of it this way. If all the writers of the bible were perfect, then all four gospels of the bible would coincide perfectly in every way. However, since the gospels were written by fallible men, the four gospels have discrepancies.

I believe that the bible is indeed inspired of God. As such, I believe the Holy Spirit lead and directed the writers of the bible as they submitted unto God. This means the message of Christ was kept.

However, to say the bible is the "word" of God is entirely a different matter. Such connotes that the very words of the bible are the words of God. This is simply not true. The literal words of the bible are the words of men. The message and meaning has been delivered through words of men. Because of this, the bible is simply not perfect and infallible in literal word.

We cannot say the bible is the Word of God as though it is the very words were written by God Himself. There is an immense danger in doing so. To know God, we must have the Spirit of God inside of us. Knowledge of God is not simply absorbing information. Rather, it is an intimate and personal relationship. God is our savior. A person cannot say, "Jesus saved me" because they read about it in the bible. When I say, "Jesus saved me" it is because it really happened. It is a real life event that changed my life.

This is how we know God. We are born again. We are transformed. Reading the bible may lead us to an understanding of this event, it may even lead us to this event. However, the actual event of Christ dying on the cross and being resurrected can only happen when we have experienced it spiritually.

However, this truth is not being taught. Instead, the bible has replaced this true baptism. The teaching goes something like this..."Accept the bible and you can be saved." In addition to this, the Church is constantly told to obey the bible.

Does not anyone see the danger of this? Our works should be a fruit of Christ. We deny the Word of God in us, and instead live by a written document. Is that not the same as living by the law?

We talk about the bible having all authority. If Christ is our authority and we have submitted unto Him, then the bible will be obeyed naturally. It will not be a matter of our work. It will be a matter of Christ living in us. The bible will have no authority or dominion over us. Instead, we will have submitted unto Christ, and His Word will abide in us. His Spirit in us will produce fruit naturally.

Why is it the Church so desires to live under laws? Why do we not live for Christ? Submission to Christ is an act of the heart. It doesn't matter how many deeds we do, it must come from the heart. It means giving up everything to Christ in our heart. He will then lead us. This requires a huge amount of faith and trust. Following the Spirit is not as simple as reading a book of law where all the dos or donts are outlined.

When will we make Christ our Lord? When will the bible be for teaching and instructing, but the authority be unto Christ?

Do you not see this?

I make this appeal in love for I wish all to come unto a true knowledge of Christ which only comes by unity with Christ. I hope you can see this and do not think of me as someone trying to attack the bible or God's Word, or teach anything false.

In love and in Christ,
Blake

beenblake's

Think of it this way. If all the writers of the bible were perfect, then all four gospels of the bible would coincide perfectly in every way. However, since the gospels were written by fallible men, the four gospels have discrepancies.

Please note, not 'a gospel' according to... but 'the gospel'. The gathered accounts of Christ's life and death were collectively known as 'the gospel'. There is only one gospel; The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. This one gospel has 4 separate witnesses. In a court of law would you reject the witness of 4 individuals because they varied. Would that not rather support the authenticity of the witnesses? Particularly if the original speech had been in a different language?

To conclude, as you do, that 4 witnesses discounts the authenticity of their witness is wrong thinking. “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matt 22:29 KJVS)

There are NO discrepancies amongsts the 4 gospel books OR ANY OTHER BOOKS. The Gospels were written from 4 perspectives. Christ was presented as Jehovah as King in Matthew, Jehovah as Servant in Mark, Jehovah as Man in Luke, and Jehovah Himself in John.

As for other "discrepancies","inconsistencies" or "errors" could be understood with the works of the finer Hebrew/Greek scholars such as EW Bullinger for one. I had read through the entire Bible numerous times, and studied for years, and found the Scriptures, with the help of different sources
to be totally without inconsistencies or discrepancies.
Difficult passages even, could be understood when studied with proper division, such as when dispensationally compared and comprehended.
One must not make assertions of any discrepancies or errors in Scripture just because one has not attained the full knowledge of It or told by some religious "authority" or such. It takes a great deal of time and diligence , if not a life time with serious studies. In the present time, not too many people have or are willing to invest such time to study and learn Scripture, It takes prayerful patience and humility for sure.

I definitely do not pretend that I understand ALL Scripture, but have all the intent to continue searching Scriptures daily as commanded by the apostle Paul.

To say that Scripture has errors is to create doubt in all other areas in It. Therefore, it's all too easy for satan to spread this notion in believers mind, to steer them away from the Bible but to follow a mystic approach in searching Christ or spiritual matters. For isn't 99% truth is a lie afterall?

Dear Philologos,

Please note, not 'a gospel' according to... but 'the gospel'. The gathered accounts of Christ's life and death were collectively known as 'the gospel'. There is only one gospel; The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. This one gospel has 4 separate witnesses.

Exactly. This is exactly what I am trying to say.

The message of the bible is inspired of God. However, it is told through 4 seperate witnesses. The message of Christ, the gospel, is perfect. The exact and details are not perfect. The Word of God is perfect. The writers of the bible were not perfect.

To conclude, as you do, that 4 witnesses discounts the authenticity of their witness is wrong thinking.

Is the witness "theirs" or "Gods"?

I am not saying 4 witnesses discount the authenticity. I am trying to point out that if all four were the exact words of God, they would match exactly. Indeed, the 4 are aligned in that they all witness of Christ. These are inspired of God. However, each is unique because it is a witness. We have 4 seperate witnesses testifying to what they saw and heard.

What was actually written witnesses to the event of Christ, to His life and death. They are the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Do you see the difference here. Jesus Christ is the gospel. The bible is the record of it. The gospel writers are witnesses who gave a testimony of Jesus.

You have the Word of God who is Jesus, and the testimony of Jesus which is the bible.

Do you see this difference yet?

In love,
Blake

For isn't 99% truth is a lie afterall?

Firstly, the bible is not the truth. The bible even says that Jesus Christ is the truth. The bible points to the truth.

Many people in history have realized that the bible needs to be considered 100% accurate and considered to be truth, if they are to use it to defend their positions. So long as the bible is 100% truth, then they can use it to their advantage.

However, that doesn't make the bible truth. The bible does have truth in it, the gospel of Christ. However, the bible is not truth itself. This means that there are truths in the bible and some error. Likewise, Jesus Christ lives on earth in the body of His Church. The Church bears truth (Jesus dwells in believers), but the Church is not the truth (Jesus is the truth).

To say that Scripture has errors is to create doubt in all other areas in It.

The authenticity and authority of scripture cannot be proven by any emperical evidence on earth. We do not have original documents of the bible. The bible cannot be proven.

The bible is only proven by Christ indwelling in a believer. I know the bible is true when Christ makes it true in me. I can read the bible and say, "Yes that is true. This has happened to me. Christ lives in me."

Otherwise, a person who accepts the bible is doing so on blind faith, because there is no proof.

As such, this means the bible is completely and totally dependent on Christ. Apart from Christ, the bible is nothing. To say the bible has error in it, does not mean the bible is entirely false. That is like saying every preacher that has ever preached is entirely false because they were not perfect. Is that true? Should we reject every teaching that didn't come directly from God? This would mean rejecting the bible too, because it was written by fallible men and women.

God can certainly use a fallible men and women to spread His gospel message. He has been doing so since Christ departed for Heaven. God can also use a fallible bible to spread His message.

As far as error is concerned, I am not saying the bible is false. I do believe, however, that some areas of the bible are incorrect. What those are, I do not know. I also believe that God has lead His Church, and those who truly know Christ have maintained and preserved truth in the bible by His leading. However, I am not so foolish to think the Devil has not made His own changes, that has caused the Church to be fooled. We are fools to think the bible is perfect and then use it like a book of law to enforce others.

I value the bible immensely. I cherish the words. However, I am also aware that the bible is not the exact Word of God. There are many areas in the bible that do not coincide. I do not have a list of them all. One exists in the story of Christ leaving the tomb. In Matt 28, it says there was one angel who moved the stone and spoke to Mary and Mary. In Luke 24, it says there were two men standing there who spoke to Mary and Mary. So was there one or two?

Now, if this story were told by humans, we could say, "No big deal. What does it matter if there was one or two? This doesn't effect the message." However, if the bible is the Word of God, the word that proceeds from the mouth of God, then we run into a problem. God is perfect. No one who is perfect would ever make such an error.

This, among other such discrepancies, clearly shows that the bible was written by fallible human beings. Clearly, God does not want us to depend on the bible as our source of faith. He does not want the bible to be our authority or God. Jesus Christ is to be the Word that abides in us. Jesus Christ is to be our Lord. When Jesus lives inside of a person, the Word of God comes through that person.

The message of God is one as Ron pointed out. There is one gospel. This one gospel lives inside each and every true believer. Each of us have our own story, our own testimony, our own record and account of what God has done in us. We each bring God glory. We reflect the son, just as the moon reflects the sun. This is our purpose and what we were created for.

There are many gospel accounts, many believers, many testimonies, and one Word. This one Word is in agreement throughout all. The Word of God is perfect and infallible. The Word of God abides in us as it says 1 John 2:14.

Christ is perfect, we are not perfect. The bible bears a message of Christ. This message is perfect. The exact details and words of the bible are not perfect. The bible is not infallible.

In Christ,
Blake

Do you see this difference yet?

Is the witness "theirs" or "Gods"?

Christ believed in the inerrancy of the Old Testament scriptures and endorsed them constantly in his witness. The New Testament scriptures have the same status as the Old Testament scriptures that Christ believed 'could not be broken'.

The Word of God is perfect. The writers of the bible were not perfect.

Perhaps you would like to cite an example of an 'imperfect' scripture so that we all know what you have in mind.

But how would you know what Christ had 'said' if the witnesses had not recorded it. No one is claiming that the witnesses were perfect only that their writings are perfect.

It's not about hearing what Christ has said with your ears or reading with your eyes, it's about believing in what He has done. I have come to a knowledge of Christ, not by the testimony of saints, but rather by what Christ has done in me. I believed in Him and He changed me. I have been united as one with Christ and that is how I know Christ. Not because of the bible.

Indeed, I could not come to believe unless I first heard about Christ. However, the testimony of Christ can come through any of His believers, not merely the bible. Even if the testimony was never written, it would have succeeded throughout generations because of Christ working in and through people.

In love,
Blake

Even if the testimony was never written, it would have succeeded throughout generations because of Christ working in and through people.

[b][i]Quote Beenblake:

"the bible is not the truth. The bible even says that Jesus Christ is the truth. The bible points to the truth. "[/b][/i]

If the bible is not the truth. I could care less what it says about anything, let alone what it points to.

You are indeed subtle..I think we have different 'Christ'(s) here.

Dear mamaluk,

So here is the big question in response to your statement, and anyone else that wants to answer may do so as well.

Is Jesus = bible?

If Jesus is the Word of God and the bible is the Word of God.....
If Jesus is the truth and the bible is the truth....
If Jesus is the expression of God and the bible is the expression of God....

then Jesus = bible.

Please explain to me how this works? Do we place our faith in Jesus or in the bible?

Do we worship Jesus the God, or Jesus the book?

How do the two connect? How is it we can say the bible and Jesus are both the Word of God?

Thanks,
Blake

Dear philologos,

Indeed, you keep me thinking. That is why I am glad you have given up on me my dear brother. I just hope that we can both come to a mutual agreement someday.

Did He pray for you?

Firstly, Jesus said "their" word. Jesus did not say "my" word. What do you think about that?

The word of the apostles did not need to be written down in order to succeed many generations. Their word could have been passed orally.

As a note, I am not denying the importance or significance of the bible. However, I think our current perspective on the bible is corrupt. We have turned the bible, which is the words of the apostles, into the words of God. We have declared that the bible is the very words of God. This I believe is error.

The bible is the words of the writers. The message of the bible, the meaning which is only discerned by the Spirit, has come from God. The writers wrote in their own words the message of God. This is the testimony of Christ. Jesus came from God. He is the message. This message is recorded in the bible.

I don't think it's entirely wrong to call the bible God's Word either. The thing about statements and words is that they may have different meanings applied in different contexts. It is important therefore to look at what the statement declares in the culture it is being used. In our culture, to say the bible is the Word of God implies that the bible is the very literal words of God. It implies that God Himself wrote the bible. This is not true. Even Jesus committed in the above verse that the bible was written in the words of the apostles.

What is it that we mean when we say "Word of God"? This is key. When we say Jesus is the "Word" and the bible is the "Word" do we mean they are one and the same? What are we saying by this? What are we communicating to people, especially those who don't know Christ?

In the sermon you gave on the word, you made an awesome declaration about how Jesus is the Word. Your explanation was inspiring. You spoke about a word expresses, and Jesus is the ultimate expression of God.

So, how do we go from this to the bible? This is the big question. How do the two relate?

In love,
Blake

beenblake,

John 4:23-24
[b] 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT [i]AND [/i]IN TRUTH: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT [i]AND[/i] IN TRUTH (not what we think to be true, I hope).[/b]

According to your assertioins, the verses above would waste your time since you claimed that the Bible has no authority and is not the truth.

I honestly doubt your faith, as to which 'Jesus' you worship. If our foundation is not Scripture, our words are as good or bad as any one on the street, really, doesn't matter at all.

A Christ in 'spirit' alone could well be any 'jesus' from any othe spirits.

A Christ from and untruthful book and a non-authoritative text is but pure imagination or of evil spirit.

Emotional love of humans don't add up to a hill of beans in light of Christ's love.

[b]John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [/b]

I feel silly even responding to you, because if you don't think that the Bible is truth, what I am trying to do here anyways.

The Bible is either the Truth or not-so-true, speechless...

Please try to read the entire Bible again, from Genesis to Revelation, reading the Bible in bits and pieces can be most unedifying, at times confusing, prove Scriptures with Scriptures, and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. I believe that only the Holy Spirit could convince you of the Word's truthfulness and authority since He is the author of It.

beenblake's

Firstly, Jesus said "their" word. Jesus did not say "my" word. What do you think about that?

The passage from John 13:31-16:33 was spoken exclusively to 11 men; his apostles. They were given to him for a unique purpose and in John 17 He is praying for them alone...“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”
(John 17:9 KJVS) I know we often take these words to our hearts as a personal comfort but in their strict context they related to the remaining 11 apostles. To this same exclusive group He had promised...“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
(John 14:26 KJVS) Again we often take these words as a personal comfort but the context shows that they were addressed to those 11 men. This is an extraordinary promise. The Holy Spirit would accomplish 2 exclusive works in these 11 men.He would teach them all things
He would bring to their remembrance all things Please notice the repetition of "all things". These men are to become the human depository of the witness of Jesus Christ. Others might remember bits and pieces but these would have 'all things' brought to their remembrance. Not only would they be a perfect archive but they would be taught 'all things' by the same Spirit. Their teaching would not be like that of any others; they would be the definitive teachers of truth. These men will be the perfect record of the witness of Christ and the perfect expositors of the truth. It is easy to miss all this if we forget that John 13:31-16:33 is addressed to that exclusive group.

It's not over yet... “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
(John 16:12-14 KJVS) This exclusive conversation now continues and further elements are added to our list...He would guide them into all truth.
He would show them things to come Notice that little word 'all' again. We can collect them together now.
1. He will teach them 'all things'
2. He will remind them of 'all things'
3. He will guide them into 'all' truth These promises were never made to anyone else. I am a passionate believer in the witness of the Spirit and the Spirit-led life, but that is not what is being referenced here. This is a unique commission and enabling of the 'witnesses'. I have never received this commission and neither has anyone else. Not even Paul!

Where would this unique treasure store of truth be located? In 11 men. We know them by name and in the 'gospel' we have the personal reminiscences of 3 of them; Peter is the eye-witness behind Mark's account, and Matthew and John would later write their own accounts. This means that if the ancient tradition regarding the authors of the accounts is reliable and there really is no cause to doubt it, Matthew, Mark and John contain 'all things' that the Spirit brought to their remembrance and Spirit inspired 'teaching' relating to these things. They contain not only what Christ did and said but also 'all' truth and 'things to come'.

One of these 3, Peter, gives an amazing testimony“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
(2Pet 3:15-16 KJVS)A little exercise in logic will reveal that Peter here regards the writings of Paul as scripture. In fact the word translated 'other' is the Greek word λοιποι which means 'the remainder'. In other words the Old Testament is only part of the scripture. The scripture cannot now be complete without the writings of Paul. Peter witnesses to the 'scripture' written by Paul by declaring that it was the result of 'wisdom given' to Paul ie revelation. Peter is here endorsing Paul's revelation. A man who was specially commissioned to be taught 'all things' has been taught some of those 'all things' by Paul and Peter recognizes the authenticity of Paul's contribution. He adds his seal to Paul's revelation.

This same Paul whose 'revelations' were endorsed by Peter also has something to tell us about scripture.“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
(2Tim 3:15-17 KJVS)All scripture, including this very word which Peter endorses, is God-breathed. Inspired is not quite the right sense. Inspired means to breath into, but θεοπνευστος means 'God breathed out'. ie the scriptures were 'spoken' by God. I am not defending a crude dictation methodology here but this imagery puts the origin of the word in God's mouth.

This testimony is endorsed again and again in scripture.“knowing this first, that [the scope of] no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation, for prophecy was not ever uttered by [the] will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of [the] Holy Spirit.”
(2Pet 1:20-21 DRBY)

“Brethren, it was needful that the Scripture should be fulfilled, which [u]the Holy Spirit spake[/u] before [u]by the mouth of David[/u] concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus.”
(Acts 1:16 ASV) And the same Holy Spirit who spoke 'by the mouth of David' spoke by the pen of the New Testament writers.

The New Testament is not just the witness of men to the truth as the Neo-Evangelicas (Barthians) claim. It is the God-breathed witness 'by the mouth of' men. Writing of the Old Testament writers Peters says...“Concerning which salvation prophets, who have prophesied of the grace towards you, sought out and searched out; searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which [was] in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which [belonged] to Christ, and the glories after these.”
(1Pet 1:10-11 DRBY) The prophets were not bearing a human witness to the truth. It was the Spirit of Christ within them who was 'testifying'. (this is the same word 'witness). The New Testament writers similarly are not bearing their own witness. They are the channels through which the same Holy Spirit continues to bear witness.

I believe strongly in the Spirit's ability to speak truth and guidance into the lives of his children but I do not confuse it with the unique testimony of the Spirit in the scripture.

Dear mamaluk,

The meaning of John 4:23-24 is simply this: Christ lives in us.

We worship God in Spirit and truth. This means the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and we worship God's Spirit by our spirit submitting unto Him. To worship God is to be united to Him as one. To worship in truth means that we are true. When we worship, our worship is pure and true. It means that our love for God is true. We truly love God with all our heart, and this is made true by the Spirit of God living in us.

On biblical authority....

If the bible is the authority, then it must be obeyed. You must obey the bible. What happens when you do not obey?

If I do not obey the bible, I may be forgiven. I will not be sent to Hell because I did not obey the bible. However, if I do not accept Jesus, then I am sent to Hell.

There is a big difference here. Obedience of the first kind is based upon works. To accept Jesus is based upon faith of what Jesus did.

This is what I mean by saying the bible has no authority. Jesus claimed He was master of even the Sabbath, despite the what the law said. He is the authority of all things. The bible is not. The bible is a record of the law and the teachings of Jesus. It is a recording.

Imagine going to see your favorite band in concert. The concernt was awesome. You had so much fun, you came home and told your friend. "Sorry you missed the concert, it was great." You friend said, "Oh yeah, I saw it. I was there. I saw the whole thing on TV." Would you say watching the concert on TV is the same as seeing it in real life.

You can read all about the death and life of Jesus, but it will mean nothing unless you experience it yourself. Jesus said, "You must be born again." We must be baptized into the death of Jesus.

You can read the bible all you want, but you will never find the truth unless you are baptized by the Spirit. You must share in the death and resurrection of Jesus. You must experience it on a Spiritual level. You must goto the concert.

Hope this helps,

In love,
Blake

PS....

I honestly doubt your faith, as to which 'Jesus' you worship.

Try reading Matthew chapter 7.

which 'Christ'?
the one from the 'not-truth' bible?

You quoted Scriptures from here and from there, but I still don't understand why you should bother since you don't think the Bible is truth, or all truth. You claimed the Blood of Christ but you would not own The written Word, I find that extremely disturbing.

I have to be honest, at this point, I have trouble addressing you as a brother in Christ. I'm sorry.

I will only pray.

Thanks too for your patience.

Dear Philologos,

We only know 'his' word through 'their' word.

Well, this may be true for you, but is quite different for me. I know Him personally. I know Jesus and His word because His Spirit dwells in me.

I didn't need to read the bible to know Jesus. In fact, no one can know Jesus by reading the bible. They can know about Him. They can read His claims and hear all about His life. However, to truly know Jesus is to be united as one with Him. It is to have His Spirit living inside.

Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus proceeds from the mouth of God. He comes out of the mouth of God. The words of the bible came from God, but they did not come out of God's mouth. They came out of the mouths of men and women. God used men to speak. God put the word in their mouth, and they spoke. On top of this, the bible is a record of those words. Writing is a collection of symbols that represent words. Reading a sheet of music is not the same as hearing a symphony.

The Word of God that comes out of His mouth, Jesus, is the perfect expression of God. He is absolutely perfect in every way.

The words of the bible have come from God, but they have come through men. Are we to say these are also perfect in every way? Are they equal with Jesus?

This is an important distinction. We have Jesus who is the Word of God, and we have the testimony of Jesus. This is highlighted in

Revelation 1:9 (NAS) "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

And in Revelation 6:9(NAS)
"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;"

The testimony of Jesus is given in order that we may believe as outlined by Paul in Romans 10. The Word of God (Jesus), which proceeds from the mouth of God, is what we believe in. The testimony leads us to Jesus. The Word of God is what abides in us as established in (1 John 2:14). Matt 4:4 says we need to live off the word of God, and not bread alone. In John 6, Jesus establishes that He is the bread from heaven. We need Jesus.

The bible has come from God and it bears a message concerning God's Son. However, the bible is not God's Son. Believing in the bible is not the same as believing in Jesus. A person may believe the bible is true, but does Jesus live inside them? Has that person accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior?

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible is true. However, they believe in their own understanding of it.

Here is the difference. The bible is filled with words. These words come together to create a message. The message is from God. God has spoken concerning His son by means of His Spirit. This message was put on the lips of men and woman. They spoke in their own words the message they were given by the guidance, remembrance, and teaching of the Holy Spirit.

The words bear the message of God. The words try to communicate God's message. But the words themselves are not from God. They are the words of men and women. The message is from God.

The message is given in order to communicate. This means they must be recieved. A person must recieve them. Once they are recieved, it then requires a response. Will you accept them or deny them?

First comes understanding. A person must hear the message and understand. I can read the bible day and night my entire life and never understand it. Instead, as many religions do, I can add to it. I can say, "The message of these words is this...." and be completely wrong.

Understanding comes from the Holy Spirit. And so, for a person to hear the message from God that is in the bible, they must have discernment from the Holy Spirit. This may come from the Spirit, or from the Spirit using another person to explain it.

Second comes the response. The message points to Jesus. Will you accept Jesus? Will you accept the message? Will you believe in Him?

I have known people who have understood the message well, but have blantanly rejected it.

Once we believe, the message becomes true in us. We share in the experience of Christ dying and being raised. We are born again.

However, the message cannot come by our own human understanding. We cannot simply read the bible and understand. The Holy Spirit must guide us.

Reading the words of the bible and taking them in as information is not enough. Believing the bible is true is not enough. We need to believe in the message. The message says God is true.

This disctinction of the message is important. If we go around saying the bible is the way to God, and preach, "This is the Word of God", then we are promoting the idea that anyone can read the bible and find God.

God has spoken and it has been recorded. The bible is merely a recording. It is not the actual thing. This is why it is so important for people to understand that if you want to hear God or to know God, you can only do so through Jesus Christ. You must call upon Jesus.

You cannot simply sit down and read the bible and know the truth or hear the Word of God. Indeed, there is a message from God in the bible. However, this message is spiritually discerned.

When we sit down to read the bible, we should not be looking at it saying, "What does this say?" but rather, we should ask "What is God saying?"
The bible is a testmony of Jesus (given by God), and it is important that people know this. They need to know that the Word of God needs to be inside of them before they can read the bible and hear the Word of God. You cannot hear the Word of God, unless you have Him. We need Jesus.

I hope this helps better explain what I am trying to communicate by all this. I am not trying to attack the bible. In fact, I am trying to defend it. I am trying to help people understand that the bible is just a book with words unless you have Christ. You need Jesus. The bible has authority once Jesus has been accepted, not because we are ruled by the bible, but because the Word of God abides in us. We have submitted unto Christ and He works in us.

I submit this to you in love,

Blake

Dear mamaluk,

I am not at war with you, and I do understand your concern. Please do pray, as I need it.

I have made this appeal to others, and often I forget to add this:

I am not against the bible, and I am not saying it is false. I am not saying it is garbage. On the contrary, I love the bible. I have many different versions and read it quite often. I cherish every word. Please don't mistake me.

I believe the bible is true, but I don't believe it is the truth. There is a difference. If the bible is "the truth", then it is perfect down to every last letter. We know this is quite impossible because if that were true, there would be only one version. There are many different versions with discrepencies between them. Which one is "the truth"?

I believe the bible bears a message from God. This message is written in the words of humans. The message speaks of Jesus, God's son.

Jesus is "the truth" as written in the bible. He is the one we base all our faith upon. We believe in Jesus. We pray to Jesus. We worship Jesus. We give our lives to Jesus.

The testimony of Jesus is recorded in the bible. This testimony is given so that we may believe in Him. This is the message of God. It comes through the bible, and if we believe in the message, it then beckons a response from us. The message proposes this question: Will you believe in Jesus?

I suppose another way of saying it is like this....we may know the message in our mind, but will we accept it in our heart?

When we accept this message of Jesus into our heart, when we have faith and beleive in Him, Jesus then makes our faith true. He fulfills the message. He comes to us and changes us. He makes us into a new person. As such, the Word of God abides in us.

I hope this helps,

In love,
Blake

beenblake,

I am not at war with you either! I don't even know you except for what your words proclaimed. :) Should our Christ be the same one, how can we be but be at peace, for HE is the Prince of peace.

I don't know how to fellowship with you or with those who believe the same as you. It is a Christian's joy and privilege to fellowship around the Word, because of the Word, and saved by the Word (The written and the living Word), not one without the other. If the Bible is not total Truth, what are we doing?

It matters not to me what your viewpoints are or how brilliantly they are presented, they are neither sound or true. I'm sure you won't mind me telling you that your words on this thread are not the truth, since you told us that the Word of God is not the truth.

It doesn't matter if you tell me that my words are not the truth, because GOD had already told me and us that "All man are liars", but I doubt if you are willing to believe that, because it's probably the part of Bible where might not be true to you.

[b]Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; AS IT IS WRITTEN, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.[/b]

No more, believe what you wish, God is the judge, and each of us will be held accountable for what we post and how we live, but no, I'm not at war with you, I don't dare.

beenblake

I don't think I have anything more to say to you. You have driven a wedge between the Christ of history and the Christ of experience and there is no way of knowing who you are talking about. I do not know what you mean by "Christ". I fear 'he' may be just a product of your imagination.

You might read an article that Greg added to the Text Sermons some time ago called [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=14601]Receiving Christ[/url] Beyond this I have nothing more to say to you. You have put your own inner witness above the witness of the chosen witnesses of Christ; we have nothing to talk about.

Dear Philologos and mamaluk,

I will make one more appeal to you, on behalf of Christ who has given me this commission. I plead with you in love. I do not know how to put this in words so that your heart to believe. Alas, I suppose that is not my position, I am only to preach.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. He is the gospel. God sent His son to die for our sins so that we may be redeemed. Our redemption comes in what Jesus did. That is the message. If we believe this, if we believe in what Jesus did for us, then we are saved. If we believe in the gospel, we are saved. If we believe this message as sent from God, then we are saved.

This event occurred many years ago. Obviously, we were not there to witness this event. And so God chose people to partake in this, to be witnesses that would spread His Word. Some of them preached and others wrote what they saw and heard. They have a testimony.

Yes, indeed, their witness is greater than any of those that would come. They witnessed Christ in the flesh as a man. They witnessed His death and resurrection. Every testimony there after, including Paul is only of Christ in the Spirit. These men, however, carry with them a greater testimony.

The Word of God is Jesus. He is the gospel of God. However, how is this message going to be spread throughout all nations in all time? Jesus needed only to die once. This means that in order of people to know of this event, of what happened, of what God has done, it must be shared through word.

Jesus is God's Word. And yet, the telling of this, the telling of God's Word comes through our word. The gospel has been spread through humans. When each of the gospel writers sat down to write of Jesus, they were writing in their own words by the guiding of the Holy Spirit. They were writing about Jesus giving a testimony of Him. They were giving a testimony of the Word of God.

There is a small difference here that is important. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and He is embodied in Spirit. The apostles were writing about Jesus. Their writings are about Jesus, but they are not Jesus Himself.

This is important. The true Word of God, the true message of God, is Jesus. The apostles were telling about Jesus.

The only way I can tell you about this is to explain my own life. For many, many years I believed Jesus died for my sin and was resurrected. All the Jehovah's Witnesses believe this. I believed it with all my heart. And yet, for many years I was not saved. Why not? I believe the message. I believe the bible was true.

What I didn't believe was this: Jesus is God. I believed Jesus was the connection to God, but not God Himself. I did not believe in Jesus Himself, I only believed in the message of Jesus, the testimony.

However, the day I beleived in Jesus, the day I called upon the real Jesus who lives in Heaven, is the same day I was saved.

There is a real and living Jesus Christ who lives in Heaven and now in me. He is a real person. He is not just a message as we think of messages.

I can sit and write to all about my wife. I can tell you everything I know about her. I can testify and give her message, her life story. I can tell about her character. And if you believe what I say, then that is great. Does that mean you know her? You will never know my wife until you meet her spirit, until you are in her presence. You will never know her until you meet her in person.

This is so important. There are people out there who spend a lifetime studying the bible, and just because they believe the bible, they think they know Jesus. They don't know Jesus. They know about Him. They have heard the testimony of others.

The question is....have you had a real testimony of Christ? Have you met Jesus? Does His Spirit live in you? Have you been born again?

It is sad when a person says, "To read the bible is to fellowship with God." God is a Spirit. The only way to fellowship with God is with His Spirit. His Word cannot be written. Written words are merely symbols. They are not the real thing. They are not the Spirit.

The night I was saved, I came home to read the bible. It was entirely different to me. When I read it, all the words were true. They were true and real, almost as if they were alive. I had read the bible many times, but it was never like this. Why did it change?

Because, the Spirit in me made them true. They became true because God was in me. The words became fruit inside of me.

The words of the bible were never the Words of God. The Spirit is the Word of God. And when the Spirit entered into me, the Word of God was in me. All these things about God that are in the bible written in words, were now true in me.

"let God be true...as it is written"

There is a great danger of turning the testimony of Christ into the Word of God (into Jesus).

If I were to go to a person and say, "Jesus died for your sins. Do you believe this?" And they were to say, "I believe you", I would say, "Don't believe me, believe in Jesus. Do you believe Jesus died for your sins? Don't believe what I am saying is true. Believe in what Jesus did." The appropriate response is to call upon Christ for salvation. The inappropriate response is to say, "I believe in the message. I put my faith in the message." The message of who? Of God? Or of men? The message of men is about Jesus. The message of God is Jesus. We need to place our faith in Christ, the real and living Christ in Heaven. However, if we have placed our faith in the message, we are only fooling ourselves, and one day, when Christ returns, we will know our foolishness.

This is my last appeal. I pray for you both. I pray the Lord may open your hearts and mind. I pray His blessings upon you.

I will not give up preaching this message. The message is the same. Believe in Jesus. Believe the bible, but don't believe in the bible. Put your faith in the true and living Christ and let the testimony of men be the reason why.

In Christ,
Blake

Beenblake said"It is sad when a person says, To read the bible is to fellowship with God. God is a Spirit. The only way to fellowship with God is with His Spirit. His Word cannot be written. Written words are merely symbols. They are not the real thing. They are not the Spirit. "

-The funny thing Beenblake, is Jesus went so far as to specifically say " the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." (John 6:63)the logical conclusion to this then is if Jesus's words could be spoken then they could be written, if written, then read, and if read, believed and recieved as if He where here speaking with me right now....as truly He is.
-And if the Bible is quoting Jesus then the words ARE spirit and contradict your theories.
-This brings us to another terrifying flaw if Jesus's statements as recorded in the Bible are not true, if the witness of the Apostles is garbage to you, how do you know you are saved ? Is the Bible just a buffett to you? You pick and choose that which to believe. We come to great problems when we judge the word instead of letting it judge us.