Rapture and 1st resurrection

How do you see Rev 20 combining with 1Thes 4?

People who cannot separate the rapture have the Old and New mixed as do the mix Law and Grace. This commingling of old and new destroys the rapture, the tribulation and the Reign of Christ on this earth for 1000 years and the final judgment and puts them all together.

In Christ: Phillip

I have heard so many opinions on this, but I am willing to hear anyone out that will spell it out. I wanted someone to do this before but everyone would get into arguments about details on one event and quote 30 verses from a chapter that contain one about the 'event.'

If you would, post the event, with the matching Scripture verse, and then maybe a couples lines to help in make sense.

example:

1) Rapture (Scripture) comments comments

2) Trib (Scripture) comments on why it occurs next

3) Millenial Reign (Scripture) why it happens after trib

etc, etc

I tried to ask people to do this the last time around, and everyone would get off on these arguments about pre vs post, etc. I would just like to see it painted out simply, but including every future event (rise of Antichrist, trib, 1000 year reign, 1st and 2nd resurrection, etc).

Thanx ahead of time.

Howdy

I do not believe that the bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, altho it is the most widely taught "theory" in scripture. I believe some of the leading personalities in Christendom today are teaching a false interpretation of this event. At the very least, a close look at Matthew 24, right from the lips of Jesus, clearly shows a steady progression of events, including tribulation, culminating in the "rapture" that happens in verse 31.
I do not think personal mis-understanding of the rapture is a problem, it becomes a problem when you teach it as doctrine, and it is not. Danial chapter 12 has some wonderful insights as well. Let scripture speak for itself, read, pray, and trust you will get insight.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Blessings Greg

First Question: Is Israel and the Church the same? Second Question: Are the promises and covenants to Israel for the Church, the Body of Christ. Etc. Does Israel before the Cross have a born again promise in effect. Is it the same as Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Was Israel crucified with Christ? Is the born again believer a new creature?

Just a few to start with.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi, John, I must admit, that I’m one of those who have become weary of discussing these issues. Yet, I think it is good that you seek to resolve them in your own mind.

I don’t want to give you my opinion, just give some thoughts for your own search:

Give priority to what is repeated frequently throughout Scripture. It’s repeated for a reason: because, to God, it is important for you to know. Also distinguish between explicit and implicit interpretations. Explicit means: what is actually said. Implicit means: what is not said directly, but is implied. So if a popular teaching arises from an implicit interpretation of an obscure verse, you need to put your red flags up. It could become the ingredient of a heresy.

So, I’ll pick one of the topics: the millennium

How frequently is the word, Millennium, or the concept found in Scripture?
What did Jesus teach about it?
What did Paul teach about it?
What did the prophets say about it?

The book of Revelation is highly symbolic. It is filled with pictures that portray events in the eternal realm. Should we take one part of the book: the 1000 years and interpret that literally - making 1000 earth years. What about the verse that says, To God a year is like a thousand years, and vice versa.

Also, if the time frame of the thousand years is interpreted according to natural phenomena, then don’t you think that the rest of the passage should be taken naturally too? So you should ask, is there really going to be an angel with a key and chain in his hands. Is there a literal Abyss in the natural realm where the devil is going to be thrown into? Are only those who were literally beheaded going to reign?

Of course it is wisest to ask God to show you what is important, and to teach you to think through HIS mind.
“We have the mind of Christ” 1 Cor.
“Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Romans 12:2

God doesn't tell one person one thing and another person another thing.

Diane

ciy,

Unless someone can prove otherwise, I would say that Israel was given all the same promises as us. The Scripture says, 'All Israel shall be saved.' To me that is all the redeemed, pre- and post- cross. I believe that they had a life changing crisis just as we do (Jacob becomes Israel, Saul becomes Paul, etc). I'm open to debate.

I would still like to see someone write out the endtimes commentary, if possible. I suppose the ones that are knowledgeable on the subject don't want to since they know another 10-page debate will begin. So...as the Lord leads us.

The evidencs shows that this pre trib rapture dictrine is only about 150 years old. not even as old as the United states of America. something to consider.

I feel a need to point out that...
Ephraem of Nisibis (AD 306-373) in a sermon called "On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World" said this:

"For all the saints and Elect of God are
gathered, prior to the Tribulation that
is to come, and are taken to the Lord
lest they see the confusion that is to
overwhelm the world because of our
sins." (English translation of the Latin
text [Christiania, 1890, pp. 208-20]
provided by Cameron Rhoades, Latin
instructor at Tyndale Theological
Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.)

Quote: by Letsgetbusy.

""Unless someone can prove otherwise, I would say that Israel was given all the same promises as us. The Scripture says, 'All Israel shall be saved.' To me that is all the redeemed, pre- and post- cross.""

Well if you see the mystery of Christ in you the hope of glory, it could not of happened until the Cross and Resurrection, lest Christ could not have been born again in the believers.

This mystery is the means of salvation by Grace through Faith. Israel did not have Christ in them, "The Hope of Glory". This is the mystery that was revealed to Paul for the Gentiles and any one else that would believe That Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Israel does not to this day believe this mystery. All Israel is saved the same way today as Gentiles are saved today.

The word mystery means, properly, that which is concealed, hidden, or unknown. And it especially refers, in the New Testament, to the truths or doctrines which God had reserved to Himself, or had not before communicated and had not occurred. It does not mean, as with us often, that there was anything unintelligible or inscrutable in the nature of the doctrine itself, for it was commonly perfectly plain when the dispensation of time is accomplished, it was made known. Thus the doctrine, that the division between the Jews and the Gentiles was to be broken down, and salvation was for all to be in Christ and that is why it is called a mystery, because it had been, to the times of the apostles, concealed, and was then revealed fully for the first time, by Christ being on the Cross and Him saying, "It is Finished: Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Ephesians 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 3:3-4 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Thus the doctrine which the apostle was stating was one that until then had been concealed, and before the mechanics of the Cross could not and had not been made known. It does not mean that there was anything unintelligible or incomprehensive in it, but until the Cross it could not been made known, that is "Christ in you the Hope ofGlory"

The statement "'All Israel shall be saved,'" is not a blanket statement that all Israel will be saved, but Like unto the Gentiles salvation is in Christ Jesus and all who believe in Christ as the Son of God will be saved so all that are saved of Israel will be saved in the same way.

In Christ: Phillip

Just last night CBC had a news feature called the Apocalyptic Culture. It is prevalent among evangelicals who believe the end is near, and view the present Mid-East war as proof. The “Left Behind” series, as well as certain televangelists have influenced the rapid growth of this movement.

Really this is not a recent phenomenon. Many expected the end to happen in 1000 AD. Actually, according to scripture the end times have been immanent since the days of the apostles: “The end of all things is near.” Pet 4:7

Just suppose the end is not for 100 or 200 years. That would still be very soon.

I fear that apocalyptic fever can have some harmful side-effects. Ex, People don’t care about their environment anymore. They let relationships go. They get diverted from their daily God-given priorities.

I did some thinking and biblical study on this subject a few years ago and compiled my thoughts here: [url=http://www.thewayback.net/articles/understandingfuture.htm]Understanding the Future[/url] Sorry, it is not a chart with a list of events. My goal was to help me understand what is important to God, and what my priorities should be.

For now, here’s a brief list of what I understand are the main features:

Things are going to get tougher as time goes along.

The cosmos will be shaken and only the eternal will remain. “We are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken (God’s eternal kingdom) (Heb. 12:8)

Christ is returning for a final gathering.

There will be a final judgment.

A new heaven and earth will be established for the saints (the bride of Christ)

The eternal lake of fire is for the unsaved.

I trust that God will shed light on any details that we need to know and understand.

Diane

I was just showing that the Pre-trib rapture doctrine isn't as new as most suppose. I think a lot of people say that it came from Margaret Macdonald.

Here is a portion of her "dream."

I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. [u]Now will the wicked be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us.[/u] - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.

If you notice the underlined parts, you can see the "dream" didn't reflect what pre-trib rapture Christians believe.

I don't really know where I stand on the issue. I can tell you what everyone else beleives, but I don't feel it has been revealed to me.

letsgetbusy,

Romans 11:25-26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

"And so all" "And"; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:--and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

"so": adverb from 3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):--and, also, even, so then,like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

"all": including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Not a statement the all Israel will be saved, because of and abundance of scripture that speaks of unbelieving Israel not saved and unbelieving Gentiles not saved.

To properly make this statement to follow the previous verse to it. It should be rendered by all good hermeneutics' say: And, also, even, so then, also, even, so then,like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), Israel be saved.

To shorten it, And so then in this fashion every one of Israel, (because of the mystery) be saved.

What is the Mystery? "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", and how is Christ in you? Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In Christ: Phillip

I will start by saying that the rapture and the 1st resurrection are the same thing.

by thingsabove

I do not believe that the bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, altho it is the most widely taught "theory" in scripture. I believe some of the leading personalities in Christendom today are teaching a false interpretation of this event.

by Smokey

I am sincerely glad to hear this, for at first, I thought I was the only one. The Lord has recently brought this topic to the forefront of my attention and has lead me to write some things in this regard. I will share with you what I have been lead to write, and what the Lord has shared with me.

Great Misconception

I heard it said the other day that the rapture will come before the "great tribulation" to occur at the end of times. Knowing in my heart that which the Lord told me, this theory seemed wrong, and so I researched this in the bible to find confirmation. What I found in scripture does not support this, but something all together different.

Christ spoke of this "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:4-31, Mark 13:5-27, and Luke:5-28. The Lord starts by giving warning as to prepare His people of the coming age. He stresses particularly this time of tribulation speaking about this time in more detail than His own coming. He warns them of things to come and continually tells them to be prepared. If the plan of God had originally been to rapture His people before the tribulation, then why would Christ give such warnings? Obviously, the Lord gave warning because of the trials His people would face.

In all three gospels, Christ tells His people of this tribulation period which speaks of a great apostasy where the abomination of desolation will be established, and many false prophets will arise. The Lord warns us to be aware of these lies and falsities, keeping our faith until the end. He tells us of the sign marking the end of the tribulation when He will return and deliver His people. Matthew 24:29-31 says, "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."(NIV) If you notice, the Lord says He will gather His elect at the end of the tribulation. The elect are God's chosen people. The Lord will gather His people at the trumpet call. This marks the beginning of God's wrath being executed on earth.

The gathering of the Lord's people, or the rapture, occurring after tribulation is mentioned in several other scriptures. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Paul says "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first"(NASB). Additionally, in the book of Revelations 7 it speaks of a "great multitude" of people who come from everywhere on the earth. They will be praising their Lord for the salvation He brings. In verse 14 it says, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (NASB)

As can be seen above, the bible shows that the Lord's people will endure the tribulation. The question is, what is this tribulation and why would the Lord allow His people to suffer these things?

Jack Van Impe, in his Dictionary of Prophecy terms under the entry of "rapture", says that the Church would not go through the tribulation on the basis of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ," (NASB) This, of course, is assuming that the tribulation is God's wrath being manifested on the earth. However, the does the bible support this? Is the tribulation a period of God's wrath and judgment being executed on earth?

There is no evidence that the tribulation is God's wrath. In every moment where God has executed His wrath, the Lord did not withhold destruction. He did not send a storm here and there, or oppress people by toying with them. His judgment was final and all encompassing. No person lived that God did not carry through. During the time of Noah, the flood came swiftly and covered the entire earth. Noah survived because God lead them out first. At Sodom and Gomorra, the Lord destroyed the entire city swiftly. The woes on each were immense. The tribulation is not a period of destruction, but rather a period of trial and hardship. When God executes His wrath, no stone will be left unturned.

The greek word used in the bible for tribulation is "Thlipsis" which means, "a pressing, pressing together, pressure." It is a metaphor for oppression and affliction. The Lord is not oppressive. The Lord does not hold people down under pressure. Rather, he has allotted us freedom to make choices and to seek Him. He has given us freedom to accept or reject Christ freely. At the time of judgment, the Lord will not oppress people, but rather judge them. His judgment will be final, and people will be sent accordingly to their fate. Oppression is something executed in order to keep a person down. God has no desire to keep anyone down.

Oppression is an act of evil where that which is good and righteous is being held under pressure. Evil attempts to defy good, or cause those who are righteous to fall. This will occur through a great apostasy that will attempt to lead many astray. Many false prophets will arise to lead God's people astray. There will be immense persecution, trials, and tribulation like the world has never seen upon the Lord's people, in an attempt to destroy God's Holiness. In Matthew 24:9-13, Jesus says, "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." (NASB) If you notice, the Lord says, "they will deliver you into tribulation." The tribulation is not God's wrath, but rather the Devil's oppressive force meant to test God's people. The Church will face great tribulation.

This is also spoke of in the book of Daniel 12:7 where it says, "as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these {events} will be completed." Further in verse 10, it says, "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand." (NASB) Those who are truly among Lord's people will endure to the end where the Lord will come and deliver them. This period of tribulation the Church will endure will clearly separate God's people from the world. The Church will be cleansed and refined. She will be a spotless bride presented before Christ.

During this time of great tribulation, the Church will suffer and endure many trials. In Matthew 24:18, The Lord says, "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!"(NASB) How terrible it will be for God's people as the Anti-Christ seeks to destroy the faith of us all. He will set Himself up to be God, and anyone who does not worship or obey His false idol will suffer immense persecution. Those who worship the false idol, however, will be living life as usual. It will be like the days of Noah. In Luke 17:26-29, the Lord says, "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed." (NASB)

Until Christ comes, the world apart from Him, will be alive in lawlessness. They will be given over unto all earthly pleasure, and partying as if the Master of the house was away. In 1 Thessalonians 5:3, Paul said, "While they are saying, 'Peace and safety!' then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape." Those who worship the Anti-Christ will think they have found their God. They will be rejoicing and given over to all sorts of wicked pleasures. However, in their darkness, they will be deceived. Christ will come and judge the entire earth.

Throughout the gospels, the Lord warns of this great tribulation. A great apostasy will arise. He has warned us to be aware of this time as many will fall away. We should take heed and beware. This time is nearing. We will not always have the freedoms we do now. We will suffer under the oppression of lies. The wicked will give into this great apostasy. They will hate us. They will turn against us. They will take our Church buildings and turn them into temples of idolatry. They will turn Christianity into a false religion. They will turn against the bible and discard it. We will face a great tribulation.

At this point, a person might ask, "Why would God let such a thing happen?"

This is an opportunity for God to be glorified in us, for the bride to prepared for the coming of her husband, and for Christ to be shown as just in His judgments. The Church will be cleansed by fire and purged of her wickedness. Those who are wicked will be clearly wicked, and will know the judgment against them is just.

This is explained by Paul. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 "11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."

When Christ comes there will be a clear separation of God's people from the world. The world will hate Christians and seek to kill them in the name of the Lord. It will be a time when our faith will be proven with our life. We will be held in front of a gun and told to deny Christ or die. There will be no "fake" Christians because we will truly have to give our life unto Christ. No one will dare say they are Christian or else they face death or torture. Christians will not be able to buy or sell. We will be mocked. The apostle Peter said this: 2 Peter 3:3-4
"3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, 'Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.'"

The Lord will be glorifed by the giving of our lives. We will be redeemed by our Lord in Heaven. Also, the Church will be cleansed. Only Christians who have the Spirit in them will be able to pass the test of giving our lives unto death for the name of Jesus. These will be the ones who make it to the end and are saved. These are the ones who will never taste death as foretold. Lastly, when Christ comes, the wicked will know of their sin. When they see Christ, they will run in fear because they will know all the prophecies are true. Of course, the anti-Christ will try fight against Jesus, and thus, the great war will begin. Thankfully, the Lord will take us to Heaven into His safety.

May Christ be yours,
In Him,

Blake

"""A new heaven and earth will be established for the saints (the bride of Christ)"""

Our abode is in the Father's House. As birthed Children should be living with their Father, especially When their Father is God and their Brother is Jesus Christ. The new heaven and new earth are for all those that are not birthed by God in Christ. What happens after the Great White Throne Judgment of all those that are in Christ, are in the Father's House, or those on this earth with Christ as King ruling over this earth for 1000 years, they which are earthly Israel's converts to Christ after the tribulation, and just before the Great White Throne Judgment, as the only thing I see, is "so shall we ever be with the Lord", those that are in Christ at the rapture. Not those converted to Christ by Israel in the millennium by the 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

False prophecies and the great apostasy ?

Looks like its already here.

Today, where church is nothing but false religion, and mere superstition... The great apostasy has already arrived, and we're living in dire times. Times in which a book called, 'The Purpose Driven Life' sells millions, and deceives millions into hell.

Telling a 'Christian' the 5 easy steps to heaven... what heresy has overcome the 'bride of Christ?'

Oh may persecution come soon, and sweep away all transgressors and hypocrites that claim to be a part of the Bride of Christ.

Oh, may God's Holy Fire come down from heaven and burn all these works of the flesh, burning away everything that is not of Him.

Perhaps we should begin by identifying where exactly the "Tribulation" is. Then, where does it say it is seven years?
I know everyone is going to put Daniel 9:27, but maybe you should all look at what men like Spurgeon, Henry, Wesley etc said about this verse.
I may be mistaken, but if you do a search in any concordance you will not find the term "7 Year Tribulation" anywhere in Scripture. Yet a whole theology and eschatology is based on one verse? A questionable one at that.
Also, the Futurist school of thought which taught a coming antichrist,a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem at the end of the Christian age, and a coming Babylon, was brought about by a Jesuit writer named Francisco Ribera in 1585.
The Preterist view was put forth in 1614 by another Jesuit author Alcasar which taught that all prophecy was finished in 410 AD.
So these were both put forth to reclaim ground lost by the Roman Catholic Church in The Reformation, and to avoid anyone seeing that the Papacy, and Rome was antichrist.
As for the semon that Brother Parsley quoted, I can only suggest you read the whole thing to see the gist of the message ;-) .
One other point I would like to add about Daniel 9:24-27. Here is the English translation of the Septuagint Version.
24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon your people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, to seal up transgressions, to blot out iniquities, to make atonement for iniquities, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
25 And you shall know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem, until Christ the Prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the Anointed One shall be killed, and there is no judgment in Him. [b]And He shall destroy the city [/b] and the sanctuary with the prince that is to come: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed He shall appoint the city to desolations.
27 [b]And one week shall establish the covenant with many[/b]. And in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolation.
Notice the capital H's.
Blessings to you all

Hi Blake,

Who was Christ sent to in Mathew, Mark, and Luke?

Matthew 15:23-28 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Most of what Jesus says in the three Gospels are specifically for the House of Israel. Jesus begins to bridge the gap between Israel and Gentile dogs in various places but the Mystery revealed to Paul was still hidden. Paul is the one that makes the bridge complete in braking down the middle wall of partition when it comes to the salvation of all those that believe in Christ Jesus as the Son of God, the revelation of what Christ will build His Church upon. Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
What is the rock, the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. This is the first mention of the the mystery of Paul's revelation of his gospel.
This is the foundation of what Jesus Christ built and is building His Church upon. Colossians 1:25-26 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

So all that is spoken of in the gospels is for Israel except a few statements that agree with Paul's giving of the end times for the born again son's of God. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Which gives truth to Rev 20 Revelation 20:1-6 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jesus came to Israel primarily in Mathew, Mark and Luke to offer the kingdom to them and they received it not. Don't commingle the Kingdom of God for Israel with the Kingdom of God for the birthed, born again son's of God and the Kingdom of His Christ which is the Bride of Christ. The Bride of Christ and Israel cannot be commingled in the end times escotology or the Parousia. The Rapture into the Kingdom of God and His Christ in the Father's House and the Kingdom of God on this earth for Israel cannot be commingled, it is like trying to put Grace and Law together, where one destroys the effect of the other, making the two in Christ of no effect instead of the born again keeping the Law of God by a pure Heart which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory the total fulfillment of the Law of God in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip

{quote} Blake
There is no evidence that the tribulation is God's wrath.

Blake, I’m puzzled why you would write this. In the book of Revelation, in the verses that speak of God’s wrath, don’t you think that the time spoken about is part of the tribulation? I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to figure out what you are saying when you say this.
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Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Wouldn’t this mean that there is a temple that has been built preceding or during the tribulation?
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I have or had a hat that says on it, “Get right or get left.” Joshua once said, Choose this day who you will serve.” Any way you look at this subject, the tone of the New Testiment is that they were expecting Jesus to return in their lifetime.
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Recently, I heard a man on the radio say that there is a difference in the terms the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. Does anyone believe this idea and can you explain this idea?

Blake, I’m puzzled why you would write this. In the book of Revelation, in the verses that speak of God’s wrath, don’t you think that the time spoken about is part of the tribulation? I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to figure out what you are saying when you say this.

The tribulation occurs before execution of God's wrath. It is the tribulation of the Church. God's people will face great tribulation. God's wrath will come upon the wicked after this period of tribulation.

Wouldn’t this mean that there is a temple that has been built preceding or during the tribulation?

I don't have all the answers. I wish I did. Alas, I will have to pray over this question.

Any way you look at this subject, the tone of the New Testiment is that they were expecting Jesus to return in their lifetime.

Indeed, the tone of our life should be that we hope Jesus to return any minute. We eagerly await the return of our King, the one we love and obey.

In love,

Blake

So all that is spoken of in the gospels is for Israel except a few statements

My dear brother Phillip,

Do you honestly and truly believe this? Everything Jesus said in the gospels was for Isreal only?

Indeed, Jesus came to save the lost sheep of Israel. However, they rejected Him. And so, the door was opened for the gentiles as well. All of what Jesus said, however, was for all His followers. He was speaking to His followers. This includes anyone and everyone who follows Him. If you are a disciple of Jesus, then His words are just as much for you as it is for Israel.

Think about this: a true follower of Jesus is someone who has the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them. A person cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless they are born again. However, the Holy Spirit did not come until after the death of Jesus. And so, when Jesus spoke in the gospels, He did not have one true follower yet. Jesus highlighted this fact when He said,

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Also, think about this parable:

Matthew 22:1-14 (NAS)
1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 "Then he said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 `Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' 10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13 "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

In love,

Blake

Recently, I heard a man on the radio say that there is a difference in the terms the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. Does anyone believe this idea and can you explain this idea?

It was once popular in certain circles to argue that the expressions "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" referred to two different realities. It is now clear, however, that they are synonyms. This is evident for several reasons. For one, the two expressions are used in the same sayings of Jesus, but where Matthew uses "kingdom of heaven, " Mark or Luke or both use "kingdom of God." Second, Matthew himself uses these two expressions interchangeably in 19:23-24, "it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven … for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Finally, we know that "heaven" was frequently used as a circumlocution for "God" by devout Jews. Due to respect for the third commandment ("You shall not misuse the name of the Lordyour God" [Exod 20:7]), pious Jews used various circumlocutions for the sacred name of God (YHWH) in order to avoid the danger of breaking this commandment. One such circumlocution was the term "heaven." This is seen in the expression "kingdom of heaven" but also in such passages as Luke 15:18, 21 ("Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you") and Mark 11:30.

by Robert H. Stein
taken from ---> Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

To read the entire article, go here:
[url=http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T411]http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T411[/url]

Hope this helps,
Blake

"""Think about this: a true follower of Jesus is someone who has the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them. A person cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless they are born again. However, the Holy Spirit did not come until after the death of Jesus. And so, when Jesus spoke in the gospels, He did not have one true follower yet. Jesus highlighted this fact when He said,"""

My statement: "So all that is spoken of in the gospels is for Israel except a few statements"

Whole statement: "So all that is spoken of in the gospels is for Israel except a few statements that agree with Paul's giving of the end times for the born again son's of God."

Your quote is confirming my statement. Yes I truly do believe that Jesus came to Israel only, in the Three Gospels to offer the Kingdom to them who were supposed to show the rest of the world, God. Jesus did begin to bridge the gap between Law and Grace and Israel and Gentiles, but as I said, Paul is the one that finished the gap and presented the fulfillment of the Word of God, being Christ in us by which we will be judged in all the secrets of men.

Statements of I am the vine you are the branches are bridging the Gap to the final gospel of Paul. The born again are not Israel on this earth. Jesus was speaking to Israel in the synoptic gospels. Only John picked up on what was going to happen at Pentecost. John showed Who and what the Holy Spirit would in the new gospel that would be completed by Paul. Chapters 14,15,16,17 clearly give us what the Holy Spirit would do when He came to be "in you". The Holy Spirit would seal us into Jesus Christ and teach and speak of what Jesus Gave Him to say about Jesus and His Church, renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ and the Spirit of Christ being our new birthed spirit by the conviction of the Holy Spirit that we would believe.

If we see this separation of Israel and the Church it makes the whole of the New Testament come together and able to rightly divide the word of God and see the plan of God for Israel and for the born again son's of God. Are not the born again, new creature and heavenly beings seated with Christ already in Heavenly Places? Israel is an earthly being nation and will always be, including after the tribulation and during the millennial Kingdom of Christ and in the New Heaven and new earth, where God and His Christ will rule forever.

I will not make what God by the Holy Spirit teaches you about the Kingdom and end times doctrine make you look like an idiot by my putting you in a light that you don't know what you are talking about. No person can have all the truth, they would have to be God, but with our total knowledge of the truth by the teaching of the Holy Spirit will bring us closer to the truth Of God. I am not trying to make you wrong, I am trying to make your spirit give my spirit more when it comes to learning this Christ that is in us.

Also in Love, and in Christ: Phillip

Dear Phillip,

What then do you make of these scriptures?

Romans 2:28-29 (NAS)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Galatians 3:28(NAS)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Blake

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

"Is not a Jew"; in the spiritual sense, that of being a friend of God, being only Outwardly; by outward descent from Abraham. Neither is that outward circumcision; in the spiritual sense; that which God approves and will reward as obedience to Him. The only reward we will receive is what God Has done with His Son that is birthed in us. Thus Him making a sign as of circumcision in the Born Again, of making that which made Israel the chosen of God, the people of Israel. Israel, Outward circumcision, Christians, Inward circumcision that is of the Spirit of Christ, not of the outer cutting away of the flesh.

What is the sign of a Christian? It is not outward circumcision, but as being a sign of God to the world in the outward flesh, the Christian is one that is inward, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." Our outward appearance is that of One Body and One Spirit in Christ, His Body the Church. That is, which it is supposed to be. But falling short trying to be circumcised Israel.

1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

We don't need circumcision, that which is a sign of God chosen people of Israel. We have and inward sign in our hearts and that is new creature with God the Fathers Christ birthed in our spirit, which we are now inwardly The Children of God and not the children of Satan. This is the Rock of our salvation, that is the revelation upon which Christ will build His Church, That is "Christ In you the Hope of Glory", our Circumcision.

Praise God for Israel through whom our Seed was given, that Is Jesus Christ, The first born among many. We are all the second born among many, whether Greek or Jew, it does not matter, what does matter is: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: That is new creatures in Christ Jesus.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
That is new creatures in Christ Jesus.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Christ is our circumcision, cutting away our stony heart and giving us a heart of flesh, that is quickening even our outer flesh by the Holy Spirit, that we might be"Perfect even as or Heavenly Father is Perfect".

In Christ: Phillip