SICK RAP WORSHIP VIDEO FOR RICK WARREN'S 2006 WORSHIP CONFERENCE

Krispy,
Have you ever read Dan Lucarini's book "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement". What he says is right on.

When I worked at the CPC I got inspired one day to ask my clients a different question: "why do you go to church?" I put this question to the professing Christians. The response was always the same: they sat there stumped: actually WHY did they go to church? After giving it serious thought, they said: it's the music!" They loved the music and it was contemporary Christian music. (Oh, and I had single musicians from these groups as clients, as well.) Krispy, these clients were all fornicators, not just an occasional one but a practicing one! If this music is Holy Spirit inspiried the end result should have been one that brought conviction and repentance of sin in the lives of these people instead of making them feel good while in their sin!

'Nuff said. I must run.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I am glad that there are still people in the body of Christ who are still descerning what's going on,especially in the world of music. A very dear subject to my heart, because I have been on both sides of the coin in the area of hip-hop, and God has wrought a pretty definative change in my outlook of rap music and really any form.
Having said that, I have witnessed a "rapper/preacher" who came to the church in which I am attending, and he performed his array of songs before he preached. Number one, I could barely hear what he was saying for the heavy beats, and two, it was driven by emotions, with the people getting up, throwing their hands in the air, and basically give allegiance to the performer. I could not fathom how Christ was getting the glory in this. And, oh yes, the mockery of "the church folks", and statements like "yall can't get with this", and "this is for the young people". he even said, "when I'm in the pulpit, in Pastor , but when I doing this I'm {whatever his hip-hop name was} as if he had to have two identities.
I was struck in awe over how dark the music was, and how covered over the message was, and in many cases how irrevalent it was to the ministry of Christ, so I relate to what is being said in the article, and thanks for the post.

In my own life, I have created hip-hop in the belief that the people would embrace the word, but I had found myself in a conflict wrestling with would they hear the word or will they be swayed by the beats. As a minister of music, I have the ability to put together words and music, but since going through a process of about a year and a half, I have been experiencing a sanctification as God wants His holiness declared and exemplified in every area, and certain trends in music, again I stress "trends" are of the world and are motivated by the flesh. The goals of the music are not sanctified, but are laced in "acceptance", and popularity. This, though, is across the board.

I'm in a crisis right now where leaders want to "diversify" the music to appeal more to the young people. The problem is not the appeal, the problem is the how, the method. The expectation has been the learn the trendy songs, and I am looked at kindof strange because I really don't listen to the trendy stuff. (I'm guarding myself from garbage). So I can't, as a musician, run off the songs because I don't know them. I chose this way because I don't want to be contaminated (yes even some gospel music)What I allow will be a short list indeed. I am more interested in what the Spirit of the Lord in saying. They already brought in a "praise" leader that exemplifies this trend, but now they want to expand it and have made it clear this is the direction they want to go in. It's no onger about lifting Jesus, or maybe superficially. The point is, I know what is taking place. This is a desperation, I guess, to win the young people back, but I can't be a part of a counterfeit appeal, and not the real deal. That's prayer, intercession

so much 2 say...

Krispy,

I am going through the same thing right now. At first I listened to "Christian" Rock and Hip-Hop. The truth is most of the songs barely even mention Jesus let alone holiness.

The music truly doesn't glorify God.

A light is breaking in on my conscience, and I can no longer watch, listen or participate in things I could before.

Murray

I don't see it on their site, so maybe they got a lot of negative feedback and removed it too?

that other link...is that the group that was at the conference or just a homemade video spoofing it?

either way it's disgusting.

Disgusting. God help us.

Got a great story for y'all:

Back a couple years ago, when I was a youth pastor, I took my youth group to a thing called "Festival Con Dios" in San Antonio. It was like a mega rally of all the greatest contemporary Christian artists from around the world where they would come and strut their stuff. Well, not even twenty minutes into the thing and I'm ready to leave. It was completely chaotic! Fleshly whistles, yells, grooving, kids moshing, stage-diving, you name it.

Well, Toby Mac (spelling?) gets up and everyone goes bananas. Five thousand kids start screaming, shaking their fists like at a Hitler youth rally, "TOBY MAC! TOBY MAC! TOBY MAC!" People are going crazy. I had no idea who this joker was, other than a serious idol. He gets up on stage and a huge American flag descends with his FACE superimposed on it. People go absolutely nuts. The drum beat starts, some sensual, worldly, rap beat. Kids beging moshing all over again; one kid is even bleeding from his nose but he doesn't care - he goes right on moshing and slamming into other people.

I remember going to look for my kids, because I had decided we were leaving. I was thinking, "Oh, God, this is demonic, what have I done? This is all my fault."

As I was thinking this, the entire power suddenly shuts down and the entire place goes dark. People start booing like they would at an Ozzy Osbourne concert or whatever. They couldn't get the power back on! They tried for about an hour; but even the generator wouldn't work. The concert was over.

But what struck me as ironic, was that AFTER the power went out, and when they couldn't get it back up, all the artists got up on stage and started piously singing hymns like Amazing Grace and the Doxology. But it was too late.

I was so happy God shut it down. I believe that "Festival Con Dios" is just a microcosm of a bigger picture. One day God too will "cut off the power" on our horrid churchianity and unplug our idolatrous worship system and bring down judgment into His house. Lord, speed the day!

Bro. Paul

ive watched this video now..its horrible in everyway... im so tiered of this great deception in thease last days... the tears are coming in my eyes...why cant people see it!!! i know its in the word that many will be blind to the truth and there are prabably 100 verses that says something like that...but when i see thease things and hear about people going into it..my heart breaks...

lord help us..... we despratly need you lord...
lets pray for this... thease people that they may be given a new heart
to glorify our lord
and repent of this satanic music coverd over whit our lords name.
i know one day this kind of music will stop forever.... no more of this...and i long for it....

gods peace for you
christian

This is quite pathetic and is definetly mocking God and His Holiness.

[b]Filled with the Spirit[/b]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFlkrGYi2Xo

This is abomination! This is one of the most disgusting things that I have seen in this great APOSTASY! Are we conscious what is going on there!?

Oh my...

This video is so awful it actually gives rap a bad name.

MC

I first heard this rap video back on an old post where bartle was wanting to pray for Rick Warren and the N. Koreans.

This "thing" is truly wicked. At first, I was stunned; I thought it might be a joke. When I realized it wasn't, a wave of brokeness overcame me and I began to weep. Is this what Jesus bled and died for? For a proud punk blasphemer to shove his face with beef as he speaks His most Holy Name with fleshy, whiney taunts? I can see the entire 2006 worship conference doing the "burning bush", and "walls of Jericho" like the blind heathen do the macarena.

And then I look at men like William Tyndale being strangled on the stake. I see the underground church in China silently baptizing its converts in the icy rivers at midnight to avoid being discovered by the persecuting authorities. I see Sudanese Christian women having their screaming babies ripped from their breasts and their sons and daughters sold into Muslim slavery. I see men like Ravenhill weeping over the harlotry of the church. I see the early Salvationists getting buckets of filth and urine dumped on their heads as they march in the streets. I see John Wesley being beaten by a mob, and David Brainerd dying of tuberculosis from all the years of wrestling with God in the chilly forest, contending for souls.

And then I turn back to 2006 and see "Smitty" shoving forkfuls of beef in his mouth and mocking God, with gangster gestures. And I see the church approving and mimicking the dance moves like sheep. This is what made me weep, brothers and sisters. The difference between the true church and the "thing" of today.

...unplug our idolatrous worship system

Amen Paul. Christian music has become enourmous glittering idol of false gold. In the church today, music is often used as an emotional subsitute for the Holy Spirit. I'm a musician and it even makes me ill. I would like to see churches lay down their technology for about a year just to see if there is any worship in people's hearts, or if it's all in the amplifiers. You know it's an idol, because many western Christians think coming to church to sing and dance is their service to God.

This is another example as to why church has become just a secular marketer of religous products. You can buy inspirational and religous products at Wal-Mart and Target retailers these days...I suppose we ought to start calling them churches as well. (Although don't look for Smitty's rap album there...unlike the church, Wal-Mart does at least have quality control standards.)

Wicked fruit like this video is why I believe revival must be more then a time where Christians get on fire for God...it must be where 'Christianized sinners' actually and truly become born again. (Edit: can you imagine if this unregeneration was ever 'set on fire'...this video shows what happens when a carnal man gets "excited" for God.)

Unless someone wants to tell me that this video could've been produced by real Christians....

MC

..unplug our idolatrous worship system

Diane

My home church went through a season where they had no musicians so they had to do the worship service with just singers. Some people probably would have just gone to cds, which if you have to do that, no comdemnation from me.

My best worship times are alone in my room with no music playing. Just me singing songs like, I Exalt Thee, You are Beautiful Beyond Description and You Are Awesome in This Place just to name a few. I just be lead by the Spirit and sing whatever is on my heart.

When we really get to intimately know our God we will be able to worhsip him in the midst of entertaining worship services. Even if the music in your church is not played or approached with the right attitude does not give us the excuse not to glorify God and enter into His presence in the midst of it.

Holy Spirit take control.

Members,

This is a joke, right??? It has to be. I think we are being put on. I don't think there is any way this could be a real song.

Murray

This is a joke, right??? It has to be. I think we are being put on. I don't think there is any way this could be a real song.

This is exactly what I thought the first time I saw it. I was stunned. But then someone confirmed that it was on the church's website.

I wish I could say it was a joke, but even then they would have gone too far! What you're seeing is pure evil, the hideous spirit of anti-christ thriving in the church. It'll just get worse from here on in, so strap on the armour, and watch and pray that you'll be able to stand on that awful day of judgment.

I am so careful to guard my heart and live holy. May God protect our hearts and minds from heretical molestations. May we forever keep our eyes and minds and hearts on the purity, holiness, and love of Jesus Christ. We must be anchored to the rock, for a terrible storm is here, and it's shaking spiritual foundations. I see people falling out left and right, being diverted and deluded and in willful bondage to mortal vanities and the types of carnal wickedness as seen in this video. Most of them are already beyond correction. If you're not humbly seeking God's holiness and the mortification of all flesh and sin, and taking time to walk in the Spirit, and trusting and obeying the voice of Jesus daily, you're going to be swept away.

May we forever keep our eyes and minds and hearts on the purity, holiness, and love of Jesus Christ. We must be anchored to the rock, for a terrible storm is here, and it's shaking spiritual foundations.

Amen Bro. Paul. It's all about Him, and perversions like this rap video have made it all about us. God forgive us and help us to stand.

My question to those of you who have posted here is this: What are we doing about the garbage that passes itself off as worship in our churches?

In other words, What should we be doing about this in our various locations? What is our duty to the Lord we say we love?

I refuse to listen to the Purpose Driven mp3. I saw some recently, and the defiling images lingered in my mind. Only a hardened heart can enjoy it, and those who has no sensitivity for beauty, or for the immense versitilty in musical expresion.

That stuff reminds me of an ingrown toenail, where good tissue turns inward and festers up into an infection with all kinds of harmful microbes. And the whole body limps. Art Katz refers to this syndrome as “groupies” (in bartle’s “We are One”). Yet God’s kingdom grows outward: “… with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.” Rev. 5:9

“Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” Rom 12:21 I think this could mean that when we see something bad, we present something good in it’s place. That’s how I view bartles’s complications. They gave me a sense of peace and rest, and they left me feeling clean. They were Christ-centred, and done tastefully.

What did your son think of it?

..... As I write this, I'm starting to sense a whole different purpose for my musical skills..... just musing....

(PS was that Duncan Campbell’s voice I heard in one spot?)

Diane

Brother, in all due respect, why mention me in connection with this bad filth?

And in all due respect, why do you not read my posts thoughtfully?

If you had taken the time to read instead of just panicking when you saw your name, you would have seen that I was actually [i]complimenting[/i] you! I said that you had asked us to pray [b]for[/b] Rick Warren. Why wouldn't you want your name connected to that? While most of us were blasting him and calling him a false prophet, you seemed to be the only one exhorting us to pray for him. I thought that was very noble and wise on your part, brother! I am quite confident that you abide in the truth and do not condone the wickedness found in this rap clip! In no way was I implying that you approved of this video, and I don't think anyone here got that impression either. If someone did, then I repent of ever mentioning your name.

Peace to you, my redeemed Jewish brother, in Jesus Christ,

Brother Paul

made the children of Israel drink of it.

Diane

My question to those of you who have posted here is this: What are we doing about the garbage that passes itself off as worship in our churches?

In other words, What should we be doing about this in our various locations? What is our duty to the Lord we say we love?

Dear brothers and sisters:
I thank God that many of you can see the folly and deception of the "Purpose Driven" movement. Its dangers need to be exposed so that others can "prove all things; hold fast to that which is good; and abstain from all appearances of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22).

The Lord revealed to me [b]through His Word[/b] that Rick Warren is a false prophet. Warren's "Purpose Driven Church and Purpose Driven Life" are based on philosophical humanism with pragmatism as the final authority for determining truth. That means that the gospel Warren preaches, although fundamental, is a misapplication of the true gospel. Warren believes and preaches a gospel of the "worth" of man, which is a severe perversion of the true gospel which proclaims the worth of Christ (His goodness and greatness) and the depravity of man (our badness to the point that Christ died for our badness). And it also means that "methods don't matter" as long as they are "getting results." That simply is not true - methods do matter. The same God who determines the end (the saving of souls), determines the means (methods) to the end.

Warren is Southern Baptist - and so am I. Many times I feel as though I am standing alone in my denomination against deception and error and apostasy, although I know that I am not alone - God has His remnant (even in the SBC). I have to constantly guard my congregation from the erroneous teachings of the Purpose Driven movement. My congregation knows where I stand. They know that I believe that Rick Warren - and I may as well add Joel Osteen - are false prophets.

This isn't an easy stand to take but a necessary one. I have many enemies because of my stand on God's truth (from within SBC churches) but I rejoice! I have also seen many delivered from this deception by the hand of the Almighty and His Word.

I have said all this to say that it isn't enough to see the errors of the ways of others without amending our own ways. Although I speak out and show the errors of the Purpose Driven model of church growth, I do not and have not gone to Saddleback to express my grievances. I have enough problems to face in the church to which God has called me to have to try to pastor and correct another one. Jesus said, "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch" (Matthew 15:13-14).

By the way - the more debased Warren gets with his methods, the more the sheep will see his folly.

Grace and peace
Olan

wow. I just got a chance to look at the video today. What else can I say that hasn't been said. Actually I'm speechless. Was this supposed to be humorous or something? I used to do "hip hop", until I realized it is a culture, a trend, and most if not all Christian rappers that go there usually have conformed in many ways to that "culture". Is this acceptable before the Lord? Does this exemplify His holiness? I struggled for a while, and that mode was so close to my heart, for it was my expression of art, but I could never, even when I tried, to shed totally the "culture" of hip hop.

I see that video, and I see an attempt at hip hop, but to reach whom? The church? the world? then what? It's fruitless.

From my point of view, and having an intricate part of the hip hop culture at one point "at least trying to", so that there is at least one non-partisan voice-and no one will think that the comments on this video is based on people who don't care for rap anyway and don't like the genre at all-that was bad, and even if I still listened to hip hop and had a choice-it would still be bad.

Did I mention that that video was bad?

Please continue to stand everyone, and please pray for us musicians, songwriters, singers, that we don't sell out, and that we pursue holiness continually. The pressures are great, but like my guy Keith Green said, "NO COMPROMISE".

Somebody say HO (I'm not sure what for) but it sounded good. :-(

and please pay for us musicians, songwriters, singers

and please pay for us musicians, songwriters, singers

sorry, I really did mean pray and not pay. was too lazy to edit my work, and then i went to lunch. mind you, i requested to not take a salary as a musician where I play. sorry again. :-(

's a good boy, loving and kind, without malice or cruelty. A good boy, please pray for us both dear Diane. How I long for him.

Hi, bartle, I was much touched by your response to my question regarding your son. It occurred to me that maybe he’s quite young to understand many of those spiritual truths – but one thing that he does understand is that his daddy loves him. And for now, I suspect that that’s what really matters. It’s the way he learns what divine Father-love is. And no doubt as time goes along he will absorb those godly truths, and trust your words about God.

Some years ago I read the life-story of Andrew Murray. As a child his dad went off to Africa as a missionary, leaving his son back in England. Andrew hardly got to see his father, except on furlows. And yet, through mail correspondence, as slow as that was back then, Andrew knew that his father loved him, and was interested in his life. Andrew shared his concerns and his thoughts with his dad, who would respond with wise counsel.
If I had that book, I would hunt up some quotes from the father’s letters – they were precious.

Of course, countless have been blessed by this father’s love, lived out through his son in later years. We are still being blessed through Andrew’s many books. I would not hesitate to suggest that maybe Andrew Murray’s success was, to a large extent, due to a father’s love and prayers.

I pray that God will keep your son’s heart tender, and that, no matter what happens down the road, he will KNOW that his daddy loves him, and is always deeply interested in the details of his life.

Each day is an opportunity to plant memories and impressions.

Diane

Bartle, Do you know what just struck me about your compilations? They have content! And the content of this one is nothing more than scriptures! To think that the scriptures can be good enough in themselves.

That reminds me - in my childhood days in the Reformed Church we were not allowed to sing anything BUT scripture - in the morning service, that is. Gospel hymns were okay in the afternoon service.

It’s too bad that good things typically get turned into rigid rules… (I add that get us back on topic)

Just think if more people would FREELY chose to insert more scriptural content into their raps, and such. At least people would learn something.

BTW... I’d love to see a cool rap of the order of the books of the Bible. I guess the Pope wouldn’t allow that, and the rappers wouldn’t care to freely do that. Sigh…

Diane

i just came on thread here to see what the fuss was all about, now i kinda wish that i hadn't ... But again i guess our Lord must want me to be even more aware of the (c)rap now masquerading as youth worship music in His Church ... Ughhhhh ... Then as if the Rick Warren produced video wasn't bad enuf i clicked on "Life Sava" and lo and behold it's a knock-off of Kanye West and Jamie Foxx's Gold-digger ... Things just seem to be escalating more sinister everyday ...

This so called hip-hop rap phenomena is something that our Lord made me sensitive to sometime back, in the early 80's actually when it first reared it's twisted head and altered my daughters from wanting to dress like girls to wearing boys sneekers, Kangols and Cazalls ... Instictively i knew something was amiss, but it would later take Holy Spirit's uncovering of my spiritual eyes to see what satan had done, and how he'd brought this about via American/African music ... When He made it plain to me He caused me to write and send it to Black Newspapers, leaders, NAACP chapters and many Am/Af churches around the country, particularly to The Church of God in Christ ... i posted the message here on SI back on 8/17/2004;

A Message to Black America and the Black Church -
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2826&forum=35#17954

The most amazing thing to me about this hip-hop culture and rap is that statistics show 90% of the music is bought by white youth, so i guess i shouldn't be surprised to see that the videos i just saw are done by white kids (i've not seen any black videos like this yet) ... Anyhow heres and excerpt from what was sent out;

Quote;
"There was a time when the only true angst music was Blues, Country and Rock and Roll, then came Heavy Metal, and it reflected the decadence of white youth. Songs of black Sabbaths, the occult, necromancy and necrophilia didn’t interest black youth at all. Black America’s youth for the most part still had at least one foot in the Black Church, and were content with having their prurient interest tickled first by the sounds of Doo-Wop, and then on to the polished orchestrated sounds of Motown, TSOP, and the raw funk of James Brown, George Clinton and the southern sounds of Stax.

Then came the musical and racial melding of Disco, and it’s ensuing depravity. Then on to Punk Rock, and it’s hard core drug suicidal binge on the white side, and Punk Funk, on the Black side, with the Super Freak himself, Rick James, who brought to popularity the ménage-a-trois, and even further widespread moral decay. Then on to the androgynous Prince and Michael Jackson, and their blurring of the gender line, providing the wicked soundtrack to the introduction of Herpes and Aids. By this time even tried and true, died in the wool, Gospel music, both black and white, had started to be affected, and there came a new genre: Contemporary Gospel. And the God of the once bonded African American was now being pushed further and further away, as Black America lost it’s integrity to the Author of their salvation, in its new found integrated freedoms. That once God dependent, God fearing Black nation within our nation, were now just as crazy as the racist whites they once derided - if not crazier. The “we shall over come”, had now just plain ole “come on over”, and was soon to lose it’s proverbial “soul” to the imminent just over the horizon Gangsta Rap. As sang in the Jefferson’s theme, we’d finally gotten our piece of the pie! … The devil’s pie.

When hip-hop first burst upon the scene it was dismissed as a flash in the pan. After all it was nothing but electrified beats, interspersed with oft times ridiculous sounding human beat box noises, over spoken words that hardly made sense. It was dance/party oriented. The black kids loved it, it was relegated a black kids thing, and so it was ignored by everyone. Except the kids! … All of the kids! … Little did anyone realize that it would soon become the deadliest weapon in Satan’s arsenal thus far, in which to "pied piper" the souls of our youth. Unlike Rock and Metal’s inability to attract black youth, Rap, especially Gangsta Rap, would come to ensnare all youth, world wide."

i made mention about something similar to what bro Krispy has posted, back on 5/6/2005 in this thread;

#2 - This Is Exactly How i Feel SI! ...
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5526&forum=35#40210

Quote;
"Just the other night I was flipping thru the channels and came across Jentzen Franklin hosting (I kid you not) a youth rally called “Pimp My Youth Group” … It was such a scary thing to see with all these supposed “hip-hop Christians” aping satan’s latest demonic fashions for the young, with a “master-pastor” dressed up like a “pimp”, with supposed adult leadership blasting any “resistance thinkers” with “this is a new day and way in the up and coming Church of our Lord Jesus Christ” …

That “resistance thinkers” phrase is one that i was quoting from bro Oz Guiness book "Prophetic Untimliness" which speaks of our allowing God to work thru us to (IN LOVE) stand flat footed and call out sin as sin ... What our Lord is showing me about our youth and their baptism in this hip-hop/rap culture is that we have to come at them in love and in honest concern for their souls because they can't see that they're caught up in this deadliest of satanic bondage ... All we 40/50/60 somethings think about when you were young and how blind you were, now think about today's youth in this world where satan is much more blatant than he was in ours ... But as for these grown "co-pied pipers" of the master pied piper satan who are enablers of our youth to going down the broad and spacious, like Rick Warren, i believe we need to speak out against such, in love, but in "tough love"! ... One i believe that should start out, "Now you're old enuf to know better" before allowing Holy Spirit to use us to apply the rod of the Word, and then they should get it full tilt, no holds barred!!! ... This is what i believe, and if i'm wrong then i pray God show me otherwise ... My God saints, doesn't this show us what we're up against? ... Do we really, really think that we can combat and beat down such hellishness without REVIVAL, without full tilt empowerment of Holy Spirit, God the Power above every power? ...

So now ALL who are so appalled by this: Just what will we allow our Lord to do thru us about it? (not a public question, but an answer (i believe) we should all be seeking Him for in our prayer closet and then doing as He directs)

Don't conform to the ways of the world
http://www.crossroad.to/HisWord/verses/topics/conform.htm

Somebody's got to make it plain, and i hear Him saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?

a “master-pastor” dressed up like a “pimp

Sometimes I feel 'cultural relevance' has become simple provision for the flesh in church. In claiming cultural relevancy many Christian's can hold on to their worldy interests with a sense of virtue instead of reproach.

A little cultural sense is in order but it is not salvation! Cultural relevancy has some value but nowhere near the high premium the church places on it. When an oncologist informs a patient of terminal cancer, the doctor doesn't offer offer the patient a cigarette in order to be relevant and sensitive. That would be hateful and mocking.

I think the only cultural relevancy that we are called to is that of salt being relevant to preservation, or an anchor being relevant to a tossing ship in a wicked storm.

MC

The Youth are getting more exposed to the things of the World, in the Church, than if they were in the World.
This must be a stench in the nostrils of God.
I praise God for the people on this forum who are standing up for the Truth.
May He give us Holy Boldness.
Nellie

Don't you have a song of the order of the books of the Bible? I know there's an ancient one over here....

Yes, Docas I know one, an old Sunday School ditty - rather dated. I use it sometimes to find a book (NT)

... just want to challenge our "with-the-times" rappers.....raise the bar...

Diane

To me, true worship comes from a pure and sincere heart, and not merely external music. Personally speaking, I also do not like the idea of Christian rock music where the lyrics are sensual and not directed towards God. Btw, may I know what are your views on Plannet Shakers? I'm 20 btw and also play the keyboard in church.

God will do more to further His Kingdom with those 3 kids than He ever will with 30 kids head banging to POD.

And so we who are the older generation have allowed an entire youth culture to thrive in the church, and have not only turned a blind eye, but also have condoned the worst "music" imaginable - and I don't just mean "contemporary", I mean bad contemporary. It is an embarassment to the church and to our Lord.

These yun'ons should have remained under the mentorship of elder spiritual mothers and fathers - including more experienced musicians. Instead they have been let loose to do what they feel is right, with no idea that it is so bad. And non-musician leaders and pastors can't tell the diffence (or care not to) Maybe they don't want to offend the parents.

I had tried to counteract this trend when I saw it sprout some years ago, but, alas, whom am I anyway - just some old-fashioned stick-in-the-mud who is not "up with the times".

Let me tell you, not ALL youth like junk "food". There are many who value beautiful music and work very hard to build good skills. I work with them all the time. I teach them, and have them sing solos or play instruments in my church.. etc. Sadly, many-a church doesn't make room for the development of thier skills; or these kids can't stand the trivial stuff, and then fade out of sight.

As I said earlier, when you see something bad, the best thing to do is counteract it by doing something good. That's what you are doing, and I admire that. That, I believe, pleases God. After all, the family is more important than the institutions.

May you be blessed by this contemporary song:

HOW DEEP THE FATHER’S LOVE FOR US,
How vast beyond all measure,
That He should give His only Son
To make a wretch His treasure.
How great the pain of searing loss –
The Father turns His face away,
As wounds which mar the Chosen One
Bring many sons to glory.

Behold the man upon a cross,
My sin upon His shoulders;
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers.
It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished;
His dying breath has brought me life –
I know that it is finished.

I will not boast in anything,
No gifts, no power, no wisdom;
But I will boast in Jesus Christ,
His death and resurrection.
Why should I gain from His reward?
I cannot give an answer;
But this I know with all my heart –
His wounds have paid my ransom.

Stuart Townend.
Copyright © 1995 Thankyou Music

Diane

mingjeff said:

Btw, may I know what are your views on Plannet Shakers?

I personally like planet shakers. I think that their music truly does give glory to god. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

god bless.

Krispy.... You took the words out of my mouth :-P AMEN!

--- Yep bro Mike ...
"a “master-pastor” dressed up like a “pimp"

That caught your attention huh? ... When i saw it i reacted in "alarm" to "sound the alarm" - Funny thing tho, the majority of saints i spoke to about it had a cavalier "well what can we do about it" attitude? ---

Bro Mike you wrote;
"Sometimes I feel 'cultural relevance' has become simple provision for the flesh in church. In claiming cultural relevancy many Christian's can hold on to their worldy interests with a sense of virtue instead of reproach."

--- Man yet another gem of insight Holy Spirit has opened your spiritual eyes to! ... This is one of the things which i believe He has shown me regarding American/African saints and the tendency to try to wed our ethnic cultural relevance to our newly acquired spiritual relevance ... While it's true that Am/Af's
have suffered a history of extreme hardships (physically, mentally,emotionally) here in America under actual slavery, then subsequent societal rejection and alienation after emancipation, it is equally true that once we come to an accurate knowledge of Christ (spiritually) we're supposed to become set free from all that binds us in the natural ... See the thing that a majority of a society can't see when it oppresses and misuses any minority within it is that the majority in it's actions tend to force any good in the minority out the other side into bad - a bad that's just set up right for satans exploitation ... i'm thouroughly convinced that the major saving grace of my ancestors in this country was that the majority of them latched on to Jesus, His message of turning the other cheek and praying for those who dispitefully use you, as well as seeking Him for aid towards attaining precious "freedom" ... i can certainly see how in such harsh times emotional release in church service became of great importance for release of mental pressure, and that emotionalism in my belief became entrenched in a culture of worship within the Black church ... It continued up and right on thru the Civil Rights Movement via We Shall Overcome, and i can even see where it would continue to still have it's place of preimmenience in service, for some really ugly things were still happening to black people back then ... The same goes for the place of songs/music in the history of the black church to uplift ones spirit and make us feel good (with emphasis on make us feel good) ...

ithank God that i was not born under slavery, as i thank God that with our leaning on Him in faith He's also gotten us past the struggle of the Civil Rights Movement to a freedom unprecedented (i feel) for Am/Af's in our collective society ... Our government does not legislatively condone slavery or discrimination anymore ... If any Am/Af today apply themselves, tho one may still run into an occasional throw back racist, one can pretty much do what any other member in society can do ... And most important if one today is a saved Am/Af then we're not supposed to be caught up in the confines of anything of our old man, but should be completely free in our new man knowing "that i can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me" and "if God is for me then who can be against me"? ... It irks me to no end whenever i see Jesse and others from the 60's holding hands and singing "We Shall Overcome" in the 2K's ...
My reaction to anyone stuck in that mode is "If we haven't overcome yet, we ain't gonna ever overcome" ... i know this is long, but then again the only folk who'll read this are those who are meant to, THIS IS MY FURTHER POINT! ...

i believe our Lord has shown me (to warn) that the great majority of the black church, at present is still stuck in a now archaic emotionally driven,
still feeling oppresses for being black in America, music to make me feel good, type of worship culture that may have serves a purpose then but is straight up crippling us now ... This along side the fact that even still we're trying to balance being relevant to Christ and what He requires, with ethnically and culturally trying to be relevant to being black and what it requires have in my opinion turned the black church into a schizophrenic mess ... We want to be of Christ in the super-natural, but we want to embrace our ethnic/cultural icons/achievments in the natural ... i can see where that may not be so bad in some arenas, but lets face it a lot of who and what's achieved under black enterprise today (music and sports) ain't holy spiritual no way-no how! ... So a choice has to be made, will a black saint and the black church here in America continue to be double-minded? ... Will we continue to try to embrace Christ and His principles to the furtherence of His agenda, while yet at the same time attempt to hold on to our "keeping it real" with others just because they happen to be black, to the furtherance of agendas often times in direct conflict to Christ's?" ... Holy Ghost has shown me that once we come to Christ we ALL become one color in the eyesight of God the Father: RED (as in the color of the blood of His Lamb in which we've been washed clean), and i think the sooner in the Spirit we begin to view one another in this same color the less satan will be able to use our old ethnic strifes to divide us ...

The bottom line is this, no man can serve two agendas, he'll either love one or hate the other ... All saints, i don't care what color we are, when we come to Christ we become a new creation, all former things are brought to nill an non effect in light of our new agenda, His agenda ... i've given example here of some things i see that's hobbling the black church, but those of you who may be white (or another ethnic group) and attend a congregation predominantly white (or your own ethnic group) you see similar conflicts of agendas going on where you are too! ... So again what to do about it? ... i pray your answer be to earnestly seek God about it in prayer, and if (tho in my experience it's always when) He answers you, submit to His will, and in love do what He tells you ... In my case He predominantly has me write ... Usually what He has me write gets no reply at all, followed by angry replies, and every once in a while another saint will write back in agreement ... The "Gangsta Rap" mailing got no where near as many replies as the "Black Church - John Kerry Cannot Save Us" mailing - but it doesn't matter ... Whoever got the mailing, and read it, has been "warned" ...

Bro Mike if Holy Spirit leads you should get this book, you can get a used one for as low as $2.49, it completely blows the cover off "relevance";

Prophetic Untimeliness: A Challenge To The Idol Of Relevance (Paperback)
by Os Guinness
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0801065607/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/104-0136063-0848708?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

This book will give you a pretty good idea of the position our Lord is placing you, and it's a most interesting position ... It's a position of becoming a "warner" to us who for whatever the reasons have our heads in the sand ... It's a position that none of us merit but is soley God's choice, for had He not chose one would still have ones head in the sand ... It's a hard position (at first), but over time Holy Spirit will begin to dawn on one that to be chosen to "warn" is both a blessing and honor because really a rock (because it has no sin at all) is much more worthy to be chosen of our Lord to cry out for Him than any of us humans ... And lastly in realizing all this it's a position that increasingly keeps one in humbleness before Him in His use of one as His instrument of service to "others", and usually "others" who'll have no appreciation for the "warning" message God's using one for on their behalf ...

Jer.6
[16] Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. [17] Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

The real irony about being unctioned to blow the trumpet of warning is that the very folk (which again apart from God's seperation of one includes oneself) whose spiritual laxity has caused God to raise up "warners" in the first place, are the very folk who'll give the "warner" the most opposition ... Man talk about a potentially crippling spiritual catch-22 position that can only be diffused by ones acceptance that one is only an instrument in His use with no room for taking anything personally ... It's not one iota about the one called, but all about the One that has called one as is obvious here;

Ezek.33
[7] So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman (warner)

Also let me say this which i believe our Lord is leading me ... Just like He leads us here to SI to become equiped in renewed walking of the old paths to find rest for our souls (and most of us who come to SI are restless souls), and to promp us to praying for and seeking REVIVAL, i also believe that many whom He brings here He also wishes to equip and send out as His "warners/trumpet blowers" amongst whichever assignment (circle of believers) He has us in ... I believe that if He enlightens one enuf to see the problem(s), then He's done so in order for His use of one to address the problem(s) ---

Bro Mike you wrote;;
"I think the only cultural relevancy that we are called to is that of salt being relevant to preservation, or an anchor being relevant to a tossing ship in a wicked storm."

--- Aaaaaaaa-men my brother! ... Aaaaaaaaa-men!---

Sis D i'm wondering about what you posted ... Are you kidding here or are you serious? ...

You wrote;
"Yes, Docas I know one, an old Sunday School ditty - rather dated. I use it sometimes to find a book (NT)"

--- You know everywhere i read in scripture about getting back to the purity of first love and works it has to do with "getting back" ... RE-PENT, turn around and get back to basics ... RE-VIVE, Get back to life ... It's never PRO-PENT or PRO-VIVE ... i also noted your use of "old" and "dated" ... Are you of the opinion that new is better? ... Maybe in some things but when it comes to spiritual it to me it just doesn't seem to be the case ... Again:

Jer.6
[16] Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. [17] Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

This thread is about contemporary (so-called) Christian music, of which (c)rap is the absolute worst to me, tho i'm sure i'd feel the same about say Punk-Rock and Heavy Metal (so called) Christian music ... Many churches today call themselves "contemporary", tho i think "contempt-orary" would be a better listing for the very word denotes disdain for the old ways ---

You finished;
"... just want to challenge our "with-the-times" rappers.....raise the bar..."

--- Being "with-the-times" seems to be the problem, and do you really see rap as "raising the bar"? ... As far as i can see the only thing rap is raising is hell, the count of those going there, and the bank accounts of satan's co-pied pipers who supply his demonic beats for those bumpin' down the broad and spacious ... It'd be funny if it wasn't so deadly and eternally serious ... :-?

If anyone can go to EXMinistries.com. This ministry is a blessing and it talks all about the truth behind HIP HOP. I've seen his videos and he has even performed live here in england to preach the truth. He is faithful and reliable. This might shed some light on the situatuion.

warriorofgod ...

i'm Holy Ghost shouting over here and both thanking and praising our Lord for His use of you to delivering this very important weapon for my arsenal against hip-hop darkness ...

i had no idea there was any such strong voice out there telling it like it T-I-S about this whole Hip-Hop/rap culture, or as this preacher says: Religion ...

Thanks warriorofgod, and triple thanks to You God!!!

Why Hip-Hop?
An excerpt from the forth-coming book
The Truth Behind Hip Hop by: G. Craige Lewis
http://www.exministries.com/whyhhh.html

The Website link:
http://www.exministries.com/

Rahman said,

sis D i'm wondering about what you posted ... Are you kidding here or are you serious?

But, in all seriousness, I do not think that we can so easily make slots for music, ie: worldly or religious. It won’t work. For example:

One day when I was performing a song in a Gilbert and Sullivan show, I suddenly felt like I was in church. Really, what was happening was that the song was in the typical style of gospel hymn written in the late 1800’s. Besides writing music for G&S shows, Arthur Sullivan wrote melodies for many of our favorite hymns. Yet, we would never squawk about the tune of Onward Christian Soldiers or Nearer my God to Thee because they were like music of “the world”.

So, for me – there’s two basic divisions – good music and bad music. And there’s a lot of in-between – mediocre – ie average performers and average compositions. I wouldn't even say that just because something is a hymn means that it's great. Many hymns have been tossed for good reasons. You discern and enjoy what you can.

If you want to listen to some of the world’s greatest music, you’d best get out of the church, and go into the “world” to find it. Try a Symphony concert of Beethoven’s Ninth – you’ll hear the song “Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee” (the "milk commercial" song) like you never heard in church. And you’ll feel like you were in heaven.

Believe me, the world has not thrown out the hymns as fast as many of our churches have.

EDIT; PS Rahman,thanks for the article about hip-hop. I've heard it here, and the words tend to be very bad, rebellious, degrading, etc. I had no idea about its origin. Also thanks for sharing your burden about worldly trends in your churches

A question: in your Af/Am churches, aren't you singing those wonderful spirituals - that your ancestors are so well-known for?
Diane

do you realise the tune is an adaptation of the original tune to 'Jesus keep me near the cross'?

Diane

Thanks Dorcas for the clarification. It does seems to be suggestive of a lot of tunes, and you could use it for a variety of hymn lyrics. (allowed?)

(PS I see it was the top hit in the UK in 2004. Is there a 4-part harmony version, or do I have to write one myself)
Diane

So, for me – there’s two basic divisions – good music and bad music.

If you want to listen to some of the world’s greatest music, you’d best get out of the church, and go into the “world” to find it. Try a Symphony concert of Beethoven’s Ninth – you’ll hear the song “Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee” (the "milk commercial" song) like you never heard in church. And you’ll feel like you were in heaven.

Been resisting this whole thing and have a rather rambling bit on the shelf... Being a former musician of sorts, living, eating and breathing music... It's strange, I haven't listened to much of anything in years. The short version is just that it is troubling spiritually, there is a manipulation factor that I find no longer compatible ... It's a long story. But if anything, would concur with your sentiments above Diane, classical and it being largely instrumental is something I would on occasion fall asleep listening to. The level of musicianship today has just gone the way of much of the world ... [i]lacking[/i].

Mike said,

the level of musicianship today has just gone the way of much of the world ... lacking.

… and even the best, whether old or new, has been tainted with humanism – the glory of man

Yet consider this poem, which has been set to song. Does it not give a hint of the journey with Christ?

The Road Less Traveled
by: Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that, the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

To a large extent one's musical passions reflects the road he/she took. Even the most Christian of Christian music can become our idol.

Diane

Guys i agree and i didnt enjoy that terrible rap video, however that is just a reflection on that church's terrible theology. Some awesome and biblical strong chrsitian rappers are around....like the (Cross Movement, Lamp Mode, The Yunion, Reach Records) although they are few in number.

The following are the lyrics to 2 songs from a 18 year old rapper in the "116 Clique" standing for (Rom 1:16) signed with Reach Records.

Trip Lee - ITOK - Gotta Grow
Song: Gotta Grow
Artist: Tony Stone
Album: If They Only Knew
2006 Reach Records, LLC.

Gotta Grow

Verse 1:
I wasn’t never the type that’s tryna kill folks
Nothing too bad maybe dabbled in a lil smoke
A lil lust, but wasn’t never seen as a bad dude
Was livin for myself dreamed of wealth and makin cash move
Was told of a savior who raised named Jesus
That paid full of grace and I did believe it
They told me He would hold me and I was blessed wit Christ
I’m like, “I get to go to Heaven? Man I’m set for life.”
But after that, I was just ya average Sunday Christian
Up in church wit my bible, back Monday sinning
Up in the school yard trying hard to blend in
Was acting dead as a carcass and far from livin
I was all up in the world, I was just like the rest of them
Called myself a Christian, but would sin with the best of them
I wouldn’t share my faith or read my Word its crazy
I was a immature believer, a spiritual baby

Hook:
We gotta grow, we can’t stay in the same place
We gotta grow, we gotta be seeking His face
We gotta grow, so if you saved and you’ve been pardoned
We gotta grow, you ain’t done you just getting started
(Repeat)

Verse 2:
I was my own guide, would never dive in His truth
But didn’t realize that I was set aside for His use
So I’d just live for what I thought was my best interest
Around nonbelievers you couldn’t tell the difference
Wasn’t a thug, nah I ain’t got no horror story
But was living for myself not the Lord and His glory
My confession: I didn’t seek my Dad’s perfection
Was going down the wrong road like I had bad directions
Until He showed my not imitating the Christ
And living for me I was truly wasting my life
And that Christ died so I could have relationship
But by my actions I refused to take this gift
Until He made a switch and now I want some more of Him daily
By His grace I’m growing and have matured from a baby
I’m so grateful that I’ve been torn from sin
And day by day He’s making me more like Him

Hook

Verse 3:
So for my believers, I just wanna encourage yall
To draw closer to the Lord I know you heard His call
Even if you ain’t smoking or shooting at domes
If you don’t do it all for His glory, you doing it wrong
Heaven ain’t the only reason we got saved
If we don’t get to know Jesus then we got played
Plus we gotta change, He said He’d change us all
And that faith without fruit, that ain’t faith at all
Sanctification, check Romans 6
We ‘posed to switch, die to sin and grow in holiness
All my brothers and sister I know this walk is tough
But even if you young just getting saved is not enough
We gotta talk to Him, read who the Lord in the skies is
The reason we breathe is to enjoy and glorify Him
I’m grateful the Father is changing ya boy
And getting closer to Him is an unexplainable joy

Hook

Song: Cash or Christ
Artist: Trip Lee (ft. Lecrae)
Album: If The Only Knew
 2006 Reach Records, LLC.

Cash or Christ

Hook:
Forget about the cash, Forget about the clothes
Forget about the stash, Forget about the dough
Forget about the cars, Forget about the rims
Forget about the stars, Forget about the benz
Forget about the big crib, tryna get rich, the big 64 plenty dough and tryna sip chrys
Forget the cash and chains, that stuff will pass away
And you cant take it with you to your after days

Verse 1:
Most are concerned with the cheddar flow, but dawg I gotta let them know
A lot of reasons we should be seeking Jesus instead of dough
Instead of mo material things, the jewelry and fame
I speak of the King, but most ain’t feeling me main
They would rather let they money stack, tryna get a hundred stack
They pockets fat, but they not ready when Christ is coming back
If they only knew the real truth about the coming wrath
They would probably race to Him faster than a running back
I know the things the cheddar buys, will attract and catch the eyes
Instead of ice, it’d be nice, if we would invest in life
Instead of all that flashy stuff, tryna get our status up
His wrath is just, so if we don’t seek Him dawg then we outa luck
What good is it to gain the world and in the end lose ya soul?
Its foolish bro, there’s a loving Savior you can truly know
I know you seeking satisfaction, you can’t find it though
Tryna dash for the cash and designer clothes

Hook

Verse 2:
Got money, got whips, got ice
Still broke homeboy! No Christ
Got a debt to pay, some real heavy wages
And the payment for his sin is pretty outrageous
I seen him park the car, suicide doors
Without Christ he walking through a suicide door
The dollar bill say in God we trust
Its funny cause money is the only God we trust
She say that she a Christian, but I can’t tell
She ain’t depending on God, she depend on mail
1 stack, 2 stack, 3 stack, 4
They spent they whole life stacking up dough
And when they die not a dimes gon go
Now they physically rich, but they spiritually poor
And they probably never heard of 1 Corinthians chapter 4
‘Cause they said they can’t imagine God’s people being poor

Hook

Verse 3:
You might want you some change, yeah you might want a crib
But tell me where the Bible say that Jesus want us rich?
It says we should be content if we got food and clothing
That’s the truth and bro, we tripping really being foolish homie
We shouldn’t put no value on falling screens and stylish chrome
Even if you saved that stuff can’t go with you when you back at home
So allow me to encourage you, if you agree the Word is true
You can only serve one Master, some of us is serving two
You can’t serve God and cash, cant love the world and Christ
Put money out ya mind, focus on eternal life
I can’t speak from experience, I ain’t seen it but I’m betting
Treasures of this world ain’t nothing next to the ones that’s up in Heaven
Feel free to store them up, since we found the Lord is just
Amazing let us praise Him main and try to give Him more of us
Let us live our lives with Him, spend our days and nights with Him
Ignore the trash the world has to offer and delight in Him

Hook

God bless yall.

Quote Orm:

The manipulation then was from above, of Christ by the revelation of Himself through conviction, [b]from those who daily sought Him for His Word.[/b] That's NOT the case today, my 50+ yrs and the Holy Spirit has shown me that. Today the evangelist reads the secular "manipulation systems" books and attempts to do what only the Hoy Spirit can.....and for different reasons! [b]That is THE false way, the wolf's way[/b], that can only lead to death. Its time wake up, church.

Amen, Orm. Might I add, it's the Hollywood's way! It's show biz!! The manipulation now is seduction from below, rather than conviction from above.

His Word ,the ever empowered saving Word along with the power of the Holy Spirit are and must be all sufficient. Gimmicks, songs and dances ( and hip hop?? does one understand what's the true implication behind hip hop??), only entice the flesh and lure temporal or emotional responses , while dishonoring God with much irreverence.

Few years back, I was invited to be a dance 'minister' yep, a dance 'minister!?' for a huge Baptist church (when I was a ballet director in the area), and was told how the Holy Spirit can work through liturgical dances and dancers, (uhhh) during worship services. (I turned it down and reproved that 'minister', by telling him that dancers will only be distracting the congregation from the LORD) Now that's another case of human manipulation in the name of the 'Holy Spirit'. Entertainment manipulation is plain offensive to the Lord, in my mind, as if they were telling God, " Your Word is not good enough, Christ's Blood is not sufficient enough, the Holy Spirit is not powerful enough, I will do it [i]my way [/i]."

tragic!
mamaluk

Perhaps I need to elaborate a bit more on this...

By manipulation I mean more in the emotions and that jumble between them and the cerebral. Watchman Nee probably would be a better extension of expression in these matters; The 'soul' and where the lower nature, feelings and emotions collide.

While enjoying a fairly vast variety of styles of music in those days, was pretty much a 'metal head' and being a guitar player was more fond of the guitar heroes of my era, the 'virtuoso's', Jeff Beck, Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoads (My 'idol' ...) Michael Schenker, Stevie Ray Vaughn ... and endless list.

There is also the 'softer' side of things, the songs that melt an 'old softy', that can bring tears, romance, songs that touch you by way of remembrance. In the former mention there is a great deal of [i]power[/i] that can be unleashed standing in front of a Marshall amplifier that can practically make your ears bleed turned only half way up.

When I was being challenged back in the day by a brother that used to come and witness to me, one of the points of discussion was always on the matter of lyrics vs. the music itself. My argument was that I paid less attention to the lyrics often times and more to the 'riffs', in fact, a good riff would send me off to buy an album even if the rest of the content was positively awful (both lyrically and music wise) ... I was a guitar junkie.

That was then. Perhaps the best way to articulate this is in the idea of [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11409&forum=40#89070]OTHERS MAY: YOU CANNOT [/url] It is not something I purposefully 'laid down', in fact it didn't even really dawn on me for quite sometime. It is in a way similar to what happens for instance when one turns off the TV for an extended time. To 'come back' to it after having spending time just concentrating on the Lord ... Ones perspective is quite different, you notice things that are more cerebral, subconscious, the tweaking of the emotions and mind, advertisements and the highly suggestive and manipulative ways and means. The laugh tracks... The voice overs... The half truths and outright lies... The sentimental and even the true things, disguised, veiled, mixed in the muddy mix.

"Christian" music faired no better for me as an alternative, it was just as often the same manipulation and generally speaking far worse, it had the unfortunate leanings that Tozer equated with his disdain for an "amateur talent show" preformed in churches. Trying to 'be like' the world and failing miserably by giving it a "Christian" twist. Originality is something so foreign these days that everything seems to be just a copy of copy of a copy. Even the better or more 'popular' Christian songs are re-made and preformed again and again, how many versions of some of these same songs are out there? This is all a digression though from the point of manipulation...

Like drugs, that give over control to the effects of the drugs influence and also open up realms that one can find themselves in and yes they are demonic realms indeed. There is something about a similar giving up the emotions to forces that are not of Gods will ... This is [i]very[/i] difficult for me to describe adequately, I appeal back to "others may, you cannot" this is not as mandate for anyone but myself, take only what is applicable from it.

Having lived in both realms at the same time it was one of a matter of control and strange in the wrestling for an attempt to do so while under the influence of both. When as a band we would 'jam' and almost always buzzed, there was a tremendous drain by the time you were finished, your emotions are spent, your ears ringing, even physically the amount of energy exhausted at such an intensity, believe someone did a study on rock musicians and equated it with levels of a marathon runner. There was also a depression that would set in though even after what we thought was a particularly good, "tight" session, everyone on the same page, little to no mistakes in preforming the songs ... something empty and missing from it all. A let down.

Perhaps this is in part why the dander gets so elevated now when the manipulation factor comes into play with things of the Lord. The highly suggestive world of name-it-and-claim-it and WOF camps. Those settings are highly manipulative, the power of suggestion and hypnosis like technique, purposeful, know or otherwise, it's there and it drives me to tears to see people that desire to know God in the deepest depths tossed around with spurious notions, crafty ... manipulations, I don't know another word for it and it is more encompassing than just those examples.

To appeal to scripture here, it is the form and function of this worlds 'system' and seems to me at the very heart of it.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the [i][b]course[/b][/i] of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

In the world but not [i][b]of[/b][/i] the world.

It used to drive me nut's to hear these things in that unredeemed state, "What do you mean? It's God's world ..." Just as well can recall chaffing at The Bible Answer Man in early days with his constant mantra of "It's not about how you [i][b]feel[/b][/i]..." I would think, of course it is!
Ah, but that is because I was ignorant and little recognized what I still was under and I believe the world by and large is swayed by, even a great deal of Chrisitans...

The emotions rule. In music, in decision making, anger, bitterness ....[i]pride[/i]...

[i]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.[/i] 1Jo 2:15-17

Look at all the things that come forth and even that which is up in our thoughts right now, here; This matter of a 'critical spirit' and criticism, judging and so forth. How much of it is based on feelings, hurt feelings, resentment, being offended ... Even our praying, is it topical, cerebral, up in the shallows? Or is it deep down below ... past.. the point of 'feeling', the place of groanings, which cannot be uttered? Am not appealing to a case of non-emotion or cold, lifeless, compassion-less, heartless concern .. far from it! It's not abstract ... it's the essence of "deep calls unto deep", true emotion, pure [i]feeling[/i], real honesty. I really feel I am failing miserably to make sense here, there is a level of inadequacy that is out of my reach.

Only God alone can put us back together again, back into His purposed design, purge our emotions correctly, our thoughts and change our hearts. Anything other than that is a manipulation and a tweaking or a giving over to whatever it may be. I can no longer allow the emotions to direct and to smell the scent of manipulation either by natural proclivities, man, the devil and his minions, even our own brethren at times, it's just diabolical to me... There is a great gulf between being compelled and being played with. The Lord manipulates no one and yet how this has been turned on it's head!

Go out 'witnessing' with some sales pitch? Some flippant, manipulative, half-truth, make that quarter-truth 'message' of say this little prayer and all is well? The other is to go the route of a legalist and manipulate from that standpoint. That's not to try and say everything all at once, it is fixed by God's decree, grace to the humble...

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

I need to be careful and frank in admitting I don't quite grasp all of the 'why' of this. The Lord saw fit to use a simple lyric to ultimately break me down into repentance and give up the fight against Him; "[i]Sweet Jesus, where did I go?[/i]" And even now ... It's strange, the refrain from a old Foreigner song for instance will come up and lodge for days ... "I want to know what love is... I want you to show me" (I [i]hated[/i] that song!) :-?

You know, those 'songs I can't get out of my head' type things.

Since I am bouncing back and forth here ...
"O Holy Night" by example, almost always brings forth tears, but for altogether different reasons.
It strikes [i]me[/i] deep down past the emotions but not without them entirely, in fact I can get quite emotional about it, [i]fall on your knees[/i] seems like it needs not be said ... I am already there.

A great deal of this is a matter of 'taste', styles and what have you. To say "This is what ought to be done" is going to be an impossibility, but tastes can be refined and it is a wonder that it is still our entertainment that trumps [i] speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart [b][u]to[/u][/b] the Lord[/i].

I don't have a definitive answer to all this, still in the midst of it. For now, it is a matter of not being 'allowed to go there' except to my own hurt spiritually speaking and why I just kind of tuned out from music in general. Who knows, some day the Lord may see fit to bring it back to the fore to make music for Him, just something I had to relinquish and the dreams of being a musician, a 'rock star' used to cause some pain when the recognition came that this is now dead and I had to let go of it, even the 'enjoyment' that I once had to just listen... I know why even if I can't articulate it all that well.

There is something telling though about where we are now with music that stems from which is even in the proclamation of Gods truth; That it is largely [i]about[/i] God if it is not first about ourselves, rather than [i]to God[/i] that we are worshiping Him with our talents that He Himself gave us in the first place. Seems the Beethoven's and Bach's were concerned with this first and foremost (if my recollection serves me correctly) irregardless of what the people thought.

Somethings just are what they are and fall out into a category that Paul described with the profound addendum;

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not profitable. All things are lawful for me, [b]but I will not be mastered by anything.[/b]

Maybe that is all that I am trying to get across.
This matter of honesty is just bearing down...

Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

[b]Manipulation[/b]

[u]Social influence[/u]

[i]Main article: Social influence[/i]*

In a psychological context, manipulation means to influence a person or a group of people in such a way that the manipulator tries to get what he or she wants or makes a person believe something in a calculating, indirect and somewhat dishonest way. Like indoctrination, it is a form of psychological abuse.

For example, a manipulator will

~ use arguments that the manipulator does not believe in himself

~ use of false reasoning as with fallacies and paralogisms

~ or withhold or distort relevant information,

~ or provide false information (disinformation)

~ or "play" on the emotions (fear, hope, love...) of the person.

~ physically move the person, like a puppet

This might also involve propaganda when it is directed to more than one person.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipulation

Thats too much manipulation speak for this reader

One of these days will figure out what the word 'condense' means ... ;-)

I understand where you are coming from Mike.

A small gnawing concern I have at churches who use the contemporary format, is how the band can often be used as a holy spirit smoke machine,,,if we want people to feel sad and tender we can have the band play in a slow minor key. If we want people to feel excited we can signal the drummer to lay down a rousing backbeat. I think some of this is just fine...but a steady diet of it I believe leads to the congregation responding to the apparatus rather then the Holy Spirit.

I don't want to ban contemporary band music really! Well maybe for a season...perhaps a 'music fast' would be instructive in showing us how dependent we can be on our emotions to worship God.

(edit: 'nuff said...)

MC

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers [b]shall[/b] worship the Father in spirit and in truth ( or song and dance? ): for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him[b] must[/b] worship him in spirit and in truth (or song and dance?).

Do these verses provide us with options as to worship style, taste or preferences? And should we add on the things of the flesh to stir our spirit in our 'truth'?

Song and dance rest with religions, while Spirit and Truth belongs with faith.

hope I'm not being critical

Hope I'm not being critical

Mamaluk,

Criticism isn't sin. Criticism isn't the same as self-righteousness. (I'm sure you know this!)Why, silence can be very sinful and self-righteous!

Every day in the work place I deal with criticism. It's part of accepting leadership. If what I am working on isn't right it must be redone. This is how people know to take me serious when I ask them to count on me to serve them. Now and then I face criticism that is invalid and must work through that, with respect. More then once I had to accept criticism and correction that was quite valid, and had to face the unpleasant consequences.

Now contrast this to 'ministries' who act like their tax exemption gives them a critical exemption as well. They want influence, but handling criticism is part of being influencial. When leading people you have to put your big boy pants on. ;-) We don't have to talk hateful towards one another, but I welcome good criticism, even when it hurts deeply. It's part of maintaining integrity.

This idea that most Christians are too critical is suspect to me...really I think most Christians are too self-absorbed and indifferent to care enough to be critical. (Church is recreational for too many Christians.)

Critical thinking is a lost art in our thin-skinned society. American evangelical Christianty is riddled with superstition and sentimentalty because people are afraid to confront irrational thinking and gross biblical error critically.

In managing people I've discovered that most employee 'trouble-makers" are the ones who care enough to get upset about stuff. Some may be too easily agitated but at least they bring it. The ones I worry about are those who stew in silence, always afraid of the risk of offending.

The same goes for ministry. Ministries want to influence people...well why not. Yet, many don't want counter-influence...why is that? Because many of them know their program and agenda is not defendable through scripture, so they intimidate people with this notion of a "critical spirit" when what they are really counting on is the status quo laodecian church. (We have to keep in mind, some ministries actually like the way things are in the church.) They know the last thing a Christian would want to be called is "unloving" and many play this powerful card whenever they realize they are holding a weak hand scripturally speaking.

Mamaluk, don't be afraid of being critical. Be afraid of being cold and unloving. Keep right on thinking and speaking critically...it's a sign that you love the Church.

Ormly, I don't know about drums...and the whole shootin' match brother. I eliminated 2/3 of my original post because I thought I would cause more conflict then good...I was afraid of the risk of saying something offensive;-) ...but in it I expressed my own convictions on this issue. I just didn't think my convictions warranted offending anyone, because in the end, music isn't the heart of worship anyway.

MC

MC, thank you.

Quoting Ormly,

[i]Scripturally, the church is not about saving people. For that matter, evangelism should not be either but that is another subject we might discuss in more depth, so I am not misunderstood. The Church [meeting] is for God's people to come together that they might worship Him.[/i]

Thank you for mentioning this. Absolutely true! That, perhaps points to the root 'problem'. When God was displeased with Israel over the 'mix multitude' by mingling with gentiles, it's a similar scenario we have on Sunday morning in most churches. (The one we now attend separate the Sunday mornings out as "Ministry of the Word" services for the mix crowd (saved and unsaved), while in the evenings they have "Worship" services for the believers only, along with bread breaking.)

Worshiping with the unsaved, is it even possible? Spiritually speaking, how can there be a unity of spirit and truth?

The unequal yoke factor here alone might bring out other hindrances, especially when the unsaved or the "pseudo-Christians" ( I don't mean this in a bad way, there are people that think they are Christians without knowing what Christianity is about, I think ) are mixed in with the true Christians,requesting/preferring to "worship" with their spirits and their ideals, as oppose to what we are commanded in John 4:23-24,

'[b][i]but the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers SHALL worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seek such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST worship him in spirit and in truth.'[/i][/b]

As I mentioned previously that a long time ago, I was a choir member (soloist occasionally) and invited to become a "dance minister" with liturgical dance worship at some churches, as "glamorous" it might sound to some, it's repulsive to me, it reminds me of the dancing beneath the golden calf at Mt.Sinai. Singing and dancing before any congregation is mere distraction from one's spirit union with the Holy Spirit, and now rapping?? Hip-hop, I plead with you all, think just what the words hip-hop alone mean. Just think. Should we go to a bar to worship? What is sanctification but separation unto the Holy God? Christians are a called-out people, separated, sanctified to CHRIST. We are not to be "party" goers or party-style worshipers. Bigger is not better!!

Entertaining the youth, another trendy pursuit, why? Youth should be able to learn holiness by examples of the older Christians, why the other way around, seeking to please the youth? Should we old Christians learn to rap and hip-hop to draw them to the Lord, just because our children and youth can't sit still? Is our Bible too boring for them?

What's wrong here? Church leaders, if you happen to be reading this, what's wrong? Please, I welcome reprove if I happen to be wrong. Why are we always focusing on our youth but not CHrist, not holiness, Psalm 46:10
[b]Be still, and know that I am God[/b], said the LORD.

God draws our spirit with His Truth ( Word), but with song and dance?? HE would have told us to dance and sing and play lots of music as in the days of Israel (before the descending of the Holy Spirit). Not only that, as in John 4, they were wondering if they had to worship in Jerusalem? So, does that mean that we should all go worship in Jerusalem with our trumpets and harps and dances and .......?

Thank God, HE convicted me with the above verses, worshiping in emotions and the flesh alone, may not be honoring to Him. In Samuel, God said that [b]obedience is better than sacrifice.[/b].

I love godly hymnals, and I do sing often to praise Him ,as we are exhorted by Paul to sing psalms and hymns, making melodies [b]in our hearts[/b], praising God that way, but to PERFORM to each other ??? On the other hand, I'm not opposed to entertainment with inspirational flare, plays, dance, music and paintings, or even in an witnessing mode. But worshiping or evangelizing with these things? For me, the focus has to be The living Word of the Cross.

As I type this, I can hear objections already,they will say "it's not practical", practical for what end? Buildings? Money? Pride? Head counts? Fame? Success? Isn't faith and obedience more precious, if not important?

Thank you also MC for your encouragement. I guess I don't have to keep ending all my posts by saying "hope I'm not critical" or other apologizing signatures.

Sis D you wrote;

"A question: in your Af/Am churches, aren't you singing those wonderful spirituals - that your ancestors are so well-known for?"

Yes, in a lot of them they're still around, but as with the nation that older generation is dying out and those old songs are being replaced ... In my own assignment the old minister of music retired almost 2 years ago, and there's now a 30 something M of M ... Plus much emphasis is put on "contemporary" in the quest to appeal to the younger, to the dismay of a lot of the olders tho many of the olders have begun to speak up, and so the newer music (rap included) has been relegated to the "youth group and worship services" (which i still see as a cop-out) ...

But we have at least one youth minister who will appreciate the ExMinistries web site (which i've e-mailing to him) ....

Bro Mike you wrote;
"I agree! One of these days will figure out what the word 'condense' means ..."

--- Bro unless our Lord brings you to that condensation, i pray you'll never figure out how to on your own ... It's my belief He uses the "long-winded" to confound those of us who want it in a "sound-bite" ... When in fact it is Holy Spirit who leads someone to pour out their heart (as i believe He does with you) in matters pertaining to our Lord in a long post, only those led by Holy Spirit to read will do so ...

So please don't take it upon yourself to cut anything short - i'm a long poster too, and have no problem when led of Holy Spirit to reading other long posts ---

Rahman,

Thank you.