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David Hogan - 350 raised from the dead

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Paulf

I have created a blog that features audio snippets, or "quotables", from David Hogan's messages.

He has been a great encouragement to me and has really increased my passion for the Lord and His calling in my life. Not to mention the experiences he's had are pretty extraordinary.

His ministry (not all by him personally) is said to have somewhere around 350 people raised from the dead. Pretty impressive I think.

I'm aware that I'm not allowed to post direct links to my website but I will say that if anyone is interested in it, PM me and I will send you the link to the blog.

Be Blessed,
Paul

M
MSeaman

I also like to hear David Hogan preach. He is very challenging to seek God and serve Him no matter what the cost.

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sermonindex

I really don't sense a strong scriptural foundation of what He speaks from when I have heard sermons by Him. There are alot of stories about the supernatural, there seems to be much lacking in his sermons and presentation. I am sure many people are hestitant to post on this forum for the staggering title of 350 raised from the dead. All things will be known at the judgement seat of Christ.

We need a strong understanding and revelation of the Scriptures and of the Christ that is spoken in them so we can accurately serve Him in Spirit AND Truth. We can't serve and follow God in some supernatural, spiritual sense with no guarding or framework. And thank God He has give us the Holy Scriptures to show us truth, and the Spirit of God by those Scriptures to guide us into all truth.

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Paulf

I really don't sense a strong scriptural foundation of what He speaks from when I have heard sermons by Him. There are alot of stories about the supernatural, there seems to be much lacking in his sermons and presentation.

With all due respect, what does a sermon and presentation have to do with the gospel of the Kingdom?

Unusual miracles were worked through the hands of Paul and we still believe him.

Really, how is obedience to Matthew 10:7-8 supposed to look?

We need a strong understanding and revelation of the Scriptures and of the Christ that is spoken in them so we can accurately serve Him in Spirit AND Truth. We can't serve and follow God in some supernatural, spiritual sense with no guarding or framework. And thank God He has give us the Holy Scriptures to show us truth, and the Spirit of God by those Scriptures to guide us into all truth.

As I read the gospels I find that Jesus was completely irrational in His day. That was the whole point...the Kingdom doesn't look like or operate like the world does. It's supposed to be supernatural and different than what we're used to. You can't read Mark without being bombarded by the supernatural as Jesus brought the Kingdom to this earth.

Jesus still has Hogan beat, He walked on water and changed water into wine. If someone were to claim those things they would be ridiculed.

I hope one day the church will appreciate the power of God and glorify Him as He demonstrates His rule and reign over creation instead of constantly discrediting it at first blush.

Paul

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sermonindex

With all due respect, what does a sermon and presentation have to do with the gospel of the Kingdom?

Perhaps I did not use my words as tactfully as I could have. Sermons that are recorded are for testimony and teaching / Preaching. He attempts to preach or teach but sadly falls short of anything of being a bible teacher that leads people into truth. He gives forth fanciful stories and experiences and leaves people with an awe, but there is no substance left.

I know there is nothing wrong at times with people having a level of "expectation" and "seeking" after God. But that yearning, seeking, knocking, thirsting, hungering, etc needs to have Scriptural working.

I listened to one file from your blog where Hogan shares about how he learned from pagan (heathen) mexican people that have no regeneration or born-again experience with God and they teach him about "spiritual life". And Hogan tries to state that they understand more about spiritual life then most westerner's and church goers. This is far from the truth. Even though much of the church is not "spiritual" or able to operate and understand things spiritual, still this does not give warrant to consult pagan and other people that have their spiritual understanding darkened. Their only perception of spiritual reality is that of darkness and things of darkness, and if Hogan is learning in that realm it is a very dangerous and unhealthy place, and I would surely not at all endorse or have people that are coming to sermonindex to hear his messages.

Really, how is obedience to Matthew 10:7-8 supposed to look?

7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

I do agree with this scripture and believe that it is truth and should be in operation in our day. I am not disagreeing that these things should not be happening but rather the way that Hogan brings these things. We have proportion to power as we do Christ-likeness.

It is sad that with the modern church enraptured with seeking after signs and wonders, that the anti-christ and false prophets will come with the exact same things soon.

Why is the bible so little regarded in some circles where signs and wonders are so lifted high? why is the Holiness barely taught or understood?

Jesus still has Hogan beat, He walked on water and changed water into wine. If someone were to claim those things they would be ridiculed.

The way you phrase this and the way Hogan comes off at times is quite wrong, we are not exalting a man but Christ. His boasting of fasting much and raising the dead is not bringing as much glory to God as it is attention to Hogan who travels more to other churches to raise money then to his own established missions. Christ never boasted in raising Lazarus but did not speak of such things. He never exalted the signs only at sad times when people would not believe his message and he says "believe for the signs sake themselves."

Test all things hold fast unto that which is good.

C
Compton

I'm unfamiliar with David Hogan, but this is a question that I wonder about as well.

Why is the bible so little regarded in some circles where signs and wonders are so lifted high?...quote]

MC

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ChrisJD

Hi everyone. Am not at all familiar with this speaker and do not want to comment upon this ministry.

Greg, you mentioned this

And Hogan tries to state that they understand more about spiritual life then most westerner's and church goers.

as I read on, this verse came to mind which says in part

...for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

though not addressed in this context, I do think it applies, as Greg went on to say

Even though much of the church is not "spiritual" or able to operate and understand things spiritual, still this does not give warrant to consult pagan and other people that have their spiritual understanding darkened.

I agree, in [b]no way[/b] should we [b]ever[/b] consult pagan spiritualists of any sort for insight into power or the Kingdom of God!

That said, it does seem as though the children of this world are often more adept at reaching into things of the 'other world' than many of us. One reason for this, I suppose, is that their intrusion into these realms is just that, an intrusion, and unlawfull, though perhaps encouraged by the wicked and rebellious principalities which seduce and encourage them into their follies with the allure of power and other deceitfull lusts.

On the other other hand, the ministration of supernatural gifts is overseen by the Holy Spirit within the body of Christ(see 1 Cor 12:1-11 for instance). I speculate here, but I suspect that it is much easier for the children of this world to reach and make use of the unseen spiritual powers which are under the dominon of darkness, if for no other reason, than that these powers are not concerned with righteousness and holiness in words and deeds.

Remember what Jesus said

He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

the principle of which seems also to apply.

Some thoughts.

W
WorldView

He came to a church that I was going to several years ago. All I will say for now, is that there was a great manifestation of the presence of God, and yes, I know what the presence of God feels like.

As for everything else about his ministry, discern it according to the Holy Spirit within you.

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Compton

Hi Worldview!

As for everything else about his ministry, discern it according to the Holy Spirit within you.

Amen, but because of present abuses we must qualify this... Discernment is hardly the mystical talent some make it out to be! How puzzling that there are many supernatural men conducting amazing supernatural services that have Christians swooning...but look alittle closer and we see these same supernatural men are void of the fruit of Spirit.

Supernaturalism, which is common enough among even demonic practices, does not give true glory to God, nor does it conclusively demonstrate His presence...or even authority upon a man. More then the gifts of the Spirit, it is discernable fruit of the Spirit, such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, that warrants trust.

Godly discerment is not conjured but constant, and for an abiding Christian is more natural then supernatural. In my experience, discernment is a gift that works best in the day light in plain sight of the congregation, not among the hidden things of the shadowy supernatural world seen by only a few elite spiritualists.

Blessings bro,

MC

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sermonindex

It is sad that with the modern church enraptured with seeking after signs and wonders, that the anti-christ and false prophets will come with the exact same things soon.

How puzzling that there are many supernatural men conducting amazing supernatural services that have Christians swooning...but look alittle closer and we see these same supernatural men are void of the fruit of Spirit.

"You shall know them by their fruit.."

FRUIT!

P
Paulf

Perhaps I did not use my words as tactfully as I could have. Sermons that are recorded are for testimony and teaching / Preaching. He attempts to preach or teach but sadly falls short of anything of being a bible teacher that leads people into truth. He gives forth fanciful stories and experiences and leaves people with an awe, but there is no substance left.

That's quite a subjective statement don't you think?

I used to believe that "substance" was great doctrine and hermeneutics. But since then (and since I started to listen to David), the only substance that mattered was the Kingdom and what I was going to do with it.

God delivered me from this 2 years ago. Taking me away from message boards where I would argue with brothers about doctrine and theology instead of winning the lost.

Then he upgraded it in me last November by telling me to get rid of all of my books because I was seeking formula instead of relationship. He put me on a "Gospel Only" diet, where I read nothing but the 4 gospels, over and over and over so I could get to know Jesus and how He worked. I'm not going to give you a number, but I've read them so much and it still astounds to read about what Jesus did and how He handled a particular situation and what He expects out of His disciples. I am always challenged no matter how many times I read it.

Now, just a few weeks ago, the Lord is moving me deeper into relationship with Him and it's even a greater challenge than before.

I mention this because after I listened to David's messages I've been changed for eternity. I also had trouble with him when I first listened, but the Lord showed me some stones of offense He wanted removed from my heart. Through David, the Lord has shown me what Jesus meant when He said "Repent, the Kingdom of God is here". And it's not followed by a 3 point sermon, it's followed by the genuine power of God. He has stripped away all that was false in me and has sanctified me according to His calling, and He has used David's messages to help move it along. I simply want to share it with others and maybe someone can find the same freedom I have...that's all my intent is.

It is sad that with the modern church enraptured with seeking after signs and wonders, that the anti-christ and false prophets will come with the exact same things soon.

Just because the false prophets will have lying signs and wonders doesn't mean we should drop ours. We need to be in front and ready for battle, not with doctrine and theology, but with the very presence of the Kingdom.

False prophets have doctrine themselves, but we don't use that as an excuse to stop our own.

Why is the bible so little regarded in some circles where signs and wonders are so lifted high? why is the Holiness barely taught or understood?


And it's not a case of one or the other, holiness or power...it's both. We need both! We need people with integrity and honor and holiness presenting the Kingdom. We're to follow Jesus and that entails holiness and power, at the same time.

He never exalted the signs only at sad times when people would not believe his message and he says "believe for the signs sake themselves."

We are in sad times. You know this. We don't need more sermons, we don't need more doctrine and theology. We need the presence of God. It's something that should be experienced rather than studied. Something needs to jolt the church back into relativity. A fresh understanding and experience of the Kingdom would do just that...I'd hope at least!

Paul

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sermonindex

We are in sad times. You know this. We don't need more sermons, we don't need more doctrine and theology. We need the presence of God. It's something that should be experienced rather than studied. Something needs to jolt the church back into relativity. A fresh understanding and experience of the Kingdom would do just that...I'd hope at least!

What does the bible say people need? why would Paul the Apostle tell timothy to "study to show thyself approved"? there are so many verses that speak of knowing the truth and also living in the power of it. It seems like you want to throw the one out mostly and go with the "power" or "manifestations" rather then be based on the Word of God. I agree that the Scriptures alone testify of the living Christ but we can never forsake the Scriptures we need to esteem, meditate on them and teach them constantly, this doesn't formulate into dry religion.

"Christianity is life, not theology." - Leonard Ravenhill

But that does not mean that the "bible" is sub-standard or as soon as we get the presence of God and the power of God the bible goes out the door, but sadly that is happening in many churches where there is a move of the Spirit of God.

W
WorldView

so quick to judge what we think we know but really do not.

W
WorldView


sermonindex wrote:
But that does not mean that the "bible" is sub-standard or as soon as we get the presence of God and the power of God the bible goes out the door, but sadly that is happening in many churches where there is a move of the Spirit of God.

That may be true to a degree. Paul himself said that he did not come with eloquent words but in the manifestation of Spirit and power. Hey some people cannot teach...look at Branham.. but does that mean that they should not minister through the gifts of the Holy Spirit with them?

There are people who study the Word their entire lives but their spirit is as dry as a desert. There is a quote my pastor has, "All Word and no Spirit and you'll dry up; all Spirit and no Word and you'll blow up; but with the Word and Spirit together you'll grow up."

Sings and wonders are supposed to follow the preaching of the Word, but where are they? When they do show up, people criticize them. Sometimes one person brings the Word and the other brings the signs and wonders.

C
Compton

Hi there Paul,

I appreciate your passion for reading the Gospels. I pray we thirst more and more for Jesus' words of life. Along these lines, I wanted to sincerely comment on somethng you stated...something I hear more and more today.

And it's not a case of one or the other, holiness or power...it's both.

This is just the problem...too many 'moves' of God today don't have both. Power of signs is in fashion...but holiness, the power of Godliness holds little attraction for most of the leading and influencial supernatural ministries in America today.

Respectfully, my question is, what kind of supernatural power manifests itself without first being preceeded by a Christ-conformed character? It's not a theological question, but a practical one, because strange supernaturalism is rampant in the church today. I don't think we can trust power, that is not preceeded by the fruit of the Spirit...we can't have have the gifts of the Spirit first and then add the fruit of the Spirit at a later date. If we can have only one power...it must be conformity to Christ.

Jesus said regarding the rich man that salvation is very difficult but with God it could still be possible...but he said it is utterly impossible for a man, who is not born again, to enter into the Kingdom of heaven!

Some say we need "both"...holiness and power, but truthfully which is vital to know God, and to gain heaven? Is it possession of supernatural power, or is it possession of Godliness? So even if we can have "both"...we can't say we need both as equal and vital.

Strengthen the feeble hands, steady the knees that give way; And a highway will be there;it will be called the Way of Holiness.The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it. No lion will be there, nor will any ferocious beast get up on it; they will not be found there. But only the redeemed will walk there,

And again in Hebrews...

Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Carnal leadership will try to intimidate the church with talk about how the captives will be set free by the 'manifest presence" of God, but the New Testament pattern is that the Spirit of Power is not seperate from the Spirit of Truth. The power of the Holy Spirit is proved Godly only when it proves to be the power of Godliness. Those that are not healing and prophesying can still be of God, but those that are not Godly are most certainly not of God. So it is not a supernatural power per se that sets the captives free, but the truth of Jesus Christ.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

I've seen many wonderful demonstrations of "power". Yet I learned painfully that the power of Godliness is the only power that is trustworthy, and let God take care of the rest. For every other 'power" we see in great men, whether it be the power to heal, or to prophesy, or to raise the dead, if we can't readily see that their 'power' is in fact the power of Godliness, then rest assured their 'power' is vanity. From such turn away.

Blessings bro,

MC

E
enid

I really don't know anything about David Hogan. I never heard of him until now. So, I'm only going by what I have read on the thread, so there is much room for error in what I say.

1 Thess 5v22 says, 'Test all things..., and so we should.

Again the word of God says 'To the law and to the testimony, if they do not speak according to THIS WORD, it is because there is no light in them', Isa 8v20. This was in relation to those who consulted mediums a wizards. They erred from the word of God in their practices.

Concerning discernment Hebrews 5v14 says,'But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Most Christians consider discernment as, the scriptures say, a use of the senses, and it is. However, the senses are exercised and sharpened by the word of God, not feeling good, emotions or spiritual experiences.

If you sense something isn't right, test it, by the word of God.

My prime example is Benny Hinn. Yes, he uses the word of God. Yes, miracles take place in his crusades. Yes, people do get healed, and yet, something isn't quite right. Do you see what I mean?

His teachings are flawed. He said that Adam could fly and that Eve gave birth through her side, both of which are unscriptual and mocks the word of God.

I for one, am not impressed by signs and wonders.

Remember Simon the sorcerer who, though believed, and was baptised, was power hungry. Peter rebuked him.

The Bible says without holiness, no one will see the Lord. It does not say without power no one will see the Lord.

John the Baptist did no miracles, yet Jesus said he was the greatest of all the prophets

That's my two cents worth. God bless.

P
Paulf

"Sermonindex":What does the bible say people need?

Jesus came to preach & demonstrate the Kingdom of God. That's what He brought to us. It was always "Repent, the Kingdom of God is here". Trade your ways for God's ways because God's way of doing things has arrived. And if you are not born from above you will not see God's way of doing things.


why would Paul the Apostle tell timothy to "study to show thyself approved"? there are so many verses that speak of knowing the truth and also living in the power of it. It seems like you want to throw the one out mostly and go with the "power" or "manifestations" rather then be based on the Word of God.

Why can't we have both???

Paul is also the one that said that the "Kingdom is not in word but in power."

Jesus never preached the Kingdom without power and He never showed power without preaching the Kingdom. It's not a one or the other mentality.

We have plenty of doctrine and theology in America, what we don't have is the genuine power. Mostly because people separate the 2. The power is delegated to the nuts while the suits have all the doctrine. We need to get over that. I made a decision to go after the power of God for myself. If nobody will be a good example of holiness and power, then I guess I'll need to be.

That's what I'm saying...take it upon yourself to learn and operate in the Kingdom power & in holiness at the same time. If nobody is doing it that you can see, then you be the first one!

Paul

B
boomatt

And it's not a case of one or the other, holiness or power...it's both. We need both! We need people with integrity and honor and holiness presenting the Kingdom. We're to follow Jesus and that entails holiness and power, at the same time.


Holiness and power, its not one or the other, its both. I have never met people that were truly seeking holiness, that did not have any power, thats impossible.You cant have power without holiness, and you cant have holiness without power. You cant just have one.


It's something that should be experienced rather than studied.

How do know what you are experiencing is true, unless you study to show your self approved.


We need to remember that the word of god is powerful, quicker than any two edged sword.


God Bless


C
crsschk

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Carnal leadership will try to intimidate the church with talk about how the captives will be set free by the 'manifest presence" of God, but the New Testament pattern is that the Spirit of Power is not separate from the Spirit of Truth. The power of the Holy Spirit is proved Godly only when it proves to be the power of Godliness.

To 'intimidate' would add [i]manipulate[/i].

"350 raised from the dead" makes for a headline and a wonder, a wonder of ... and the proof? As Greg mentioned or alluded to, this is either remarkably incredible and would think it would be known across the landscape, at the least as some sort of controversy ... strange so little noise, have heard nothing of it or... it is just outright not so and therefore a lie. It is only one or the other. Prove it.

Secondly, why is there not more rejoicing over "350 [b]Changed[/b] From The Dead"?

A great deal of this discussion is going right back to another topic about 'balance'. We are not compartmentalized saints, we may act and or think that way, but it ought not to be so. The Lord was (on this earth) and is the same, all the time. The scriptures are the same as He is, unchanged, part and parcel, spirit and truth, in the body-out of the body.

Not to forget this moment;

[i]And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, [b]These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.[/b]

And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.[/i]
Act 16:17-19

Here is your prime example of rational discernment
that Compton spoke of elsewhere. Whether Paul had known of this girl's background or not beforehand is not mentioned. But he did know the spirit behind and in her. How this applies to the case in point is only this, for I know only what has been mentioned here and wish only to reinforce this one thing;

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


P
PaulWest

If I had to choose between a church where uncompromised holiness was being preached from the pulpit and a church where the Pastor was not very solid scripturally but the dead were being raised and people were leaping out of wheelchairs, I would choose the first church without hesitation.

The good news is, you don't have to pick and choose: you CAN have both power and holiness! A greater demonstration of the power of God, a much greater miracle than raising the dead, is the inner transformation of a person which leads to holiness and humility and a deeper wisdom of the things of God. One true, Holy Spirit-filled and yielded life will win more people to the Saviour and glorify God than a whole cemetery of corpses being raised. True power comes from holiness and results in people becoming holy themselves and selling out for God. Signs and wonders are without repentance; you can be in disobedience and in doctrinal error and still raise the dead and pack the meeting house every night and get people to weep. But God's abding holiness and true cleansing power cannot operate to His glory without humility and daily obdedience in the life of the believer.

Few of God's ministers seem to have this kind of balance. Lake and Wigglesworth were among the few in the forefront of pioneer Pentecostalism. I am not familiar with Hogan's ministry, but if Greg thinks he may be off in his teachings, then I am not surprised. I need to hear him for myself.

Frankly, if I want to hear stories of the dead being raised, I'll turn on TBN and listen to the strutters. Personally, I'm after God's holiness, humility and purity. And if you let God break you and diligently desire the Spirit's fruit to manifest in the essence of your being, God will be very pleased to shower the gifts upon your ministry when the need arises. And the gifts won't come to just bedazzle the people; the manifestations will be such that inner workings of holiness and death to self and complete abandonment unto God will result in the both the people AND preacher. The Spirit's gifts are manifest to bring forth fruit, salvations and faith, and true salvations and increased faith are wonderful springboards from which God can bring forth fruit in the life of a believer.

At least, as a Pentecostal minister, that has been my experience.

Brother Paul

W
WorldView

I must say Brother Paul, I enjoy reading your posts. Many times you just take the words right out of my mouth and say them far better than I could.

Keith

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello...

I have had a few bad "experiences" with David Hogan. He came to our Church several years ago. In fact, he lives nearby (or at least, used to live nearby), and I have wanted to find his house to speak with him about my concerns. I actually went to Raymondville and searched for him, but no one there seemed to even know who he is. However, by the way he goes about claiming his "authority as a man of God," I am not too certain that he would even listen to my concerns. However, I don't really feel the need to write again about this topic. If you want to read about my experiences and subsequent concerns, you can simply use the search feature and find the other threads about him.

The following is my opinion:

Has David Hogan raised 350 people the dead? Of course not! Don't you think that, if he even raised 100, 50 or even 5 people from the dead -- more people would have heard about it?!?

I live near Mexico, and most of it is not nearly the "backward country" that people in the United States seem to think. If people in the places that he claims to have raised the dead had actually seen this -- they would have spread the word! The news media in Mexico relentlessly follows stories about religioius images on tortillas, vegetables and rocks. If the media had heard anything remotely close to actual miracles being performed by Mr. Hogan, they would have searched for this man with great haste. I do not say this lightly, since I have traveled to Mexico with credible and sincere missionaries on many occasions. We have labored building church buildings, water pumps and houses for pastors primarily with the indigenous tribes like the Tarahumara.

Many of these missionaries and local pastors are very humble and sincere individuals with hearts that truly seek after the Lord. Yet the only opinions that we seem to have heard from these individuals in Mexico is less than favorable of Mr. Hogan.

Do I truly believe that David Hogan raises the dead? In all honesty, I must say no. But don't get me wrong -- I know that God can raise the dead. I believe that God still performs miracles and have seen things that would probably be just as easily scoffed. But the underlying message of true repentence seems lacking in Mr. Hogan's messages. After having attended several of his meetings, I haven't heard him speak about much except for boasts about physical manifestations of the supernatural. A local pastor in Mexico, after asking him about what he knew of Mr. Hogan, smiled and told me, "[i]A man of God who truly works for the Lord doesn't need to go around wildly boasting about what he does for the Lord[/i]."

I have often wondered why people don't get so excited about stories of a minister that truly and effectively preaches repentance? It often seems like the stories of true repentance do not excite us as much as tales of physical manifestations of the supernatural.

Please don't misunderstand this post. I often sincerely pray for David Hogan. I will continue to pray that God will reach out to him (and vice versa). But I do not believe that we should "chase the wind" in matters such as these. Instead, let us continue to seek the Maker of the wind.

:-)

O
OverSeer

but we can never forsake the Scriptures we need to esteem

Amen! It is a sad day indeed when people would rather exalt their subjective experiences over God's Word when God Himself has magnified His Word above His Name (Psalm 138:2).

People who love God's Word more than all riches are accused of "Bibliolatry." It is the Word that imparts faith (Romans 10:17) and not miracles or experiences. "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (Lazarus who had died and went to heaven) to my father's house. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, 'They have Moses and the prophets (the Word of God); let them hear them.' And he said, 'Nay, father Abraham: but [i]if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent[/i].' And he said unto him, "[i][b]if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rise from the dead[/b][/i]." (Luke 16:27-31).

If we want to win the lost we must use the Word of God!

Grace and peace
Olan

C
crsschk

"A man of God who truly works for the Lord doesn't need to go around wildly boasting about what he does for the Lord."

That...

Speaks volumes to all sorts of matters. Well said.

S
sermonindex

This is just the problem...too many 'moves' of God today don't have both. Power of signs is in fashion...but holiness, the power of Godliness holds little attraction for most of the leading and influencial supernatural ministries in America today.

[b]"...the power of Godliness holds little attraction for most of the leading and influencial supernatural ministries in America today."[/b]

Brother this rings very true in my heart and experience, I thank you for wording it so clearly.

Sings and wonders are supposed to follow the preaching of the Word, but where are they? When they do show up, people criticize them. Sometimes one person brings the Word and the other brings the signs and wonders.

But the question can be simply asked why do spiritual signs and wonders happen sometimes through vessels are are clearly teaching error and false doctrines. The Spirit of Truth is the one that leads into all truth and also has manifestations such as healing, prophecy, etc. But He is the Spirit of [b]Truth[/b] primarly! without that foundation the building crumbles.

I appreciate your passion for reading the Gospels. I pray we thirst more and more for Jesus' words of life.

Paul, I appreciate this also and it encourages me to hear it, may we be those that meditate constantly on Scripture that we may do the exploits that are shown in them. Not in our own strength but may we have our faith built to a place where God can do them.

Respectfully, my question is, what kind of supernatural power manifests itself without first being preceeded by a Christ-conformed character?

This [b]is[/b] the question at hand and we need to answer it according to the Scriptures.

Some say we need "both"...holiness and power, but truthfully which is vital to know God, and to gain heaven? Is it possession of supernatural power, or is it possession of Godliness?

Possion of Godliness, as I heard one saint of God say that it is required to have sanctification to go to heaven. Can we be justified and not sanctified? by no means. All those that are justified (made right with God) are sanctified (brought to Christ-likeness), sanctification I would say is not based on power but on Christ-likeness (godliness) conformity to the likeness of Christ, ie the fruits of the Spirit.

This is a message that needs to be trumpeted to alot of circles that are focusing on: signs, signs, signs!

Obedience brings possession
Possession brings Christlikeness
Christlikeness brings power
-Smith Wigglesworth

We have plenty of doctrine and theology in America, what we don't have is the genuine power. Mostly because people separate the 2. The power is delegated to the nuts while the suits have all the doctrine. We need to get over that. I made a decision to go after the power of God for myself. If nobody will be a good example of holiness and power, then I guess I'll need to be.

That is my plea, to have both in operation and that is what I am personally seeking in my life. But why again is there a lack of desire for [b]TRUTH[/b] in circles that are operating fully in this power and the manifestations of it. I have a hunger to know God, to know the apostolic doctrines and walk in apostolic power, this desire leads me to read the bible, read church history, I have a hunger for to read books of people that knew God in history. People like: John Wesley, John Calvin, Issac Watts, Andrew Bonar, David Brainerd, etc but the way people write in these books that they wrote people in the modern day have no endure to read them or desire after them.

We have as a product of modern day christianity that has supposed power, books coming out in paperback quality, double spaced with fluff and fanciful stories, but let us contrast that with some old work on Holiness or the Majesty of God which is 1000 pages and full of depth and insight into the character of God.

Why is holiness shuned in the modern day movements where God Spirit is supposedly working in manifestations and miricales. How can the [b]Holy[/b] Spirit be working in such places and vessels that are no honourable (holy and set apart).

I just see such a desparity in our modern day movements where people say that God is working even beyond the church history 200 years ago or even such statements as beyond the apostles. How blind we simply have become to believe that we have reached somewhere, when in reality we are going backwards so fast that its unconcievable.

ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Secondly, why is there not more rejoicing over "350 Changed From The Dead"?

We are not compartmentalized saints, we may act and or think that way

If I can speak for others on SI, I believe [b]many[/b] on sermonindex are seeking for true spiritual power over sin, power to minister to the lost and a experience of Apostolic Christianity in our modern day. But there is a caution with so many false and spurious subsitutes that have been crying out to us "this is it!" , "this is what God is doing!". God has been raising a remenant of people that are yearning for a real move of God, a revival that changes society, conforms people into godliness and Christlikeness and brings power over sin, and yes signs do follow and we are not [b]unbelieving[/b] for them. But we want a true represtation of them, we want God to come down, and He will.

Keep persevering in prayer saints for revival and God to come He will and when the true light comes it will reveal and expose all false.

Few of God's ministers seem to have this kind of balance. Lake and Wigglesworth were among the few in the forefront of pioneer Pentecostalism.

I agree fully there have been some that have really walked in a fulness that the world has marvelled and said is not "God among us."

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

Brother greg mentioned this..

..and yes signs do follow and we are not unbelieving for them.

Just thought to add here that the signs that follow [b]may[/b] not be what we would expect either. I think of the descriptions of the supernatural from Duncan Campbell some of which are not at all what one might expect, or for that matter, what you often hear of in pagan lands, the latter being more in harmony with those things which accompanied the expansion of the primitive Church in pagan lands.

Perhaps the Lord is pleased to work in every time and place according to what is better suited to the particular dispostion and spiritual character of the people amongst whom He is choosing to dwell.

E
enid

It's kind of sad that we have to go seeking after signs and wonders when God want us to seek after Him. He tells us to seek FIRST the kingdom of God, not signs and wonders.

I saw a girl, who was near blind, get healed. This was some years ago. The healing was verified medically, so there is documentation to support the healing.
As it is, I don't know if she is serving God today, I don't remember her getting saved, just healed.

Another lady I knew, was born with a deformed leg. She was saved, had prayer for her disability, but was never healed.
She died last year of cancer.

What difference does it make whether you are healed or not if you die and go to hell?

At least with the sister who never got healed, she is where we are all striving to go now.

As for the other one, who knows?

Let us seek the Giver, not the gift. God bless.

B
boomatt

WOW!!!

God bless you for sharing that, I hope that encourages a lot of people to seek nothing but christ.

P
Paulf

Just in case nobody saw it in the other post:::

I have an idea...it's very easy to talk negative about another person, especially when he can't defend himself. A good quote from Bill Johnson comes to mind when he says..."Anybody digging can find dirt, it takes skill to find the gold."

So let's just take David completely out of the equation because I know he stirs a lot of people's water and 350 raised from the dead is a large claim. Let's bring it down to reality, where we live:

I think the crowd around here is different than other message boards. Let's all discuss our fruit from our own obedience to Matt 10:8. Instead of talking about other people's numbers, let's talk about our own. I'll go first.

Heal the sick: I've prayed for 9 this past month after deciding to "Go" according to verse 7, none of them instantly healed.

Raise the dead: 0 [never attempted]

Cleanse the lepers:0 [never attempted]

Drive out demons: I've tried, but 0

Sounds like I have some work to do, don't you think?

I've been on purpose seeking God with diligent prayer and a fasting lifestyle for the past 2 years. God has taught me a lot, but I don't have any fruit. I finally realized that God can't heal anybody while I'm in my closet. So last month I decided to just go out there and see what I could do. I grab my homemade tracts, my wife and son and we go out to the public to see if God will show up. This is what I do, I look for any visibly sick or hurt person and that's my cue, I go up to them and talk about Jesus and ask if I can pray for their healing.

So far I've probably let about 50 people walk by without me doing a single thing! You know why? Fear of man, I never knew I had it so much until I went to pray for the sick. I've done Ray Comforts method and it's easy, you just follow the steps, but this is different. You're no longer relying on yourself but you're FORCED to rely on God because there is NOTHING in you that can heal a broken arm or leg. It MUST come from GOD.

Uhoh...what happens when nothing happens?? Is it God's fault? Nope, read what happened when the disciples couldn't heal the boy at the bottom of the mountain. It's my fault. There is a bottleneck somewhere, and it's somewhere in me. Does that mean I stop, no. It means that I press forward and deal with my problem of unbelief.

Listen, the world deserves the demonstration of the Kingdom! Not just self-help principles and a different way to live their life. They deserve to see God. That's exactly why Jesus came. The Father DESIRED to show Himself to the world. And He did!! Jesus said His miracles were a witness that He was from the Father...what is our's?

I just put up a new quote on my blog where David talks about whether people will believe what he's saying is true or not...he says that you won't really believe until you get out there and make a decision to do it yourself! My old pastor said "any truth without experience will remain in doubt".

There is also another brother in Georgia (Ryan Lawson) who is influenced by Hogan and is out there on the streets presenting the Kingdom with truth AND power. Seeing miracles in the streets of America. (I;m not sure if I can link him or not, if Greg says it's ok I will, if not you can PM me). He told me "nothing can substitute just doing it." and my favorite "anything worth doing is worth doing your worst." He's the reason why I left my closet.

So let's get out there and make ourselves like fools for Christ and try to bring the Kingdom to this world!

Or, would you rather argue about it on computers?

Paul

P
Paulf

[b]By JoeA from the "I have an idea" thread:[/b] As i said, signs do accompany the preaching of the Gospel, but the signs should not be thought of as what causes people to believe.

So, do signs accompany our preaching? If not, is that ok and acceptable?


When Jesus healed the paralytic, it was to prove that He had the power to forgive sins.

This is EXACTLY the point. The physical power over the man's sickness proved to show what was available in the spirit. It is far easier to say "your sins are forgiven" than it is to say "get up and walk".

So, what I am saying is, the world deserves the same treatment. It's one thing to try to tell someone they've sinned and fallen short of God's standards and need a saviour and then just asking them to believe it based on your word. It's a whole other thing to say "To prove to you that God loves you and that he wants to make you whole spiritually, watch as I demonstrate that he wants to make you whole physically as well." This is exactly what Jesus did here.

This isn't about holiness or character...most of the people here have that. Anytime Ravenhill is preached we understand! Let's move on and let God develop our character AS we go!

Paul

P
Paulf

[b]Sermonindex[/b]I have a hunger to know God, to know the apostolic doctrines and walk in apostolic power, this desire leads me to read the bible, read church history, I have a hunger for to read books of people that knew God in history. People like: John Wesley, John Calvin, Issac Watts, Andrew Bonar, David Brainerd, etc

The desire should lead you to the world brother, not books.

Believe me, I completely understand your point. I used to read read read until last November when the Lord told me to get rid of all of my books. He told me just to read the gospels, and that was it, no epistles, nothing...and I haven't read anything since, just assimilating the gospels. Then last month I realized I still was missing it, with all the prayer and fasting and seeking God, it was all for my own consumption. I've been corrected and now I understand it's for others, not me. It's for the hurt and lost of the world, not me.

What comes to mind is when Jesus was getting on to the Pharisees because they would tithe the smallest tenth of spices they had, but they wouldn't work in the weightier things of the law like judgement, mercy and faith. The whole swallow a camel strain at a gnat deal.

This is what Jesus said, and this is what I want to say to you regarding this, not to lord something over you, but to encourage with the same encouragement I received:

Jesus said:
"these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. "

This is what He spoke to me just a few weeks ago regarding prayer and fasting. As stupid as it sounds, I was thinking about quitting prayer and fasting and seeking God to go out and work for the Lord...then He reminded me of this story and said "you must do both!"

We have zero excuse to not have holiness and power. There isn't a "well I'd rather have holiness if anything." No, it's all or nothing. Don't settle for anything less than the full gospel of the Kingdom, which is in holiness and power!

Paul

O
OverSeer

Paulf said,

So, do signs accompany our preaching? If not, is that ok and acceptable?

"And many resorted unto him (Jesus), and said, [i][b]John did no miracle[/b][/i]: [i]but all things that John spake of this man were true[/i]. [b]And many believed on him there[/b]" (John10:41-42). John the Baptist did no miracle but many believed on Jesus because John spoke the truth about Jesus. Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet that ever lived - and we know that many other prophets did do miracles.

And,

It's one thing to try to tell someone they've sinned and fallen short of God's standards and need a saviour and then just asking them to believe it based on your word.
The Gospel is not based on "your word" but is God's word. In the gospel the glory of the Lord is revealed. It is when a person sees or beholds the glory of the Lord that he or she sees his or her own wretchedness and the Lord's goodness and greatness. It is then that he or she repents because the Holy Spirit has convicted of sin, righteousness, and judgment. No one is ever saved without beholding the Lord's glory (see 2 Corinthians 4:3-4). Miracles are not necessary for revealing the Lord's glory - but God's Word is! Jesus said that the Scriptures testify of Him (John 5:39).

And,

It's a whole other thing to say "To prove to you that God loves you and that he wants to make you whole spiritually, watch as I demonstrate that he wants to make you whole physically as well."

What about those who are well physically but sick spiritually? Are they to go to hell because they have no physical malidy of which to be miraculously cured? I had no physical malidies of which to be healed - but I wasn't whole spiritually - and it was the gospel - unattended by miracles - that was the power of God unto salvation for me and for the Lord's glory!

Grace and peace
Olan

P
PaulWest

We have zero excuse to not have holiness and power.

Friend, you keep talking about power as if it were a separate thing from holiness. What exactly do you mean when you say [b]power[/b]? The ability to do tangible miracles like David Hogan? Remember, John the Baptist never did one miracle, and yet he was greater than all the other "power workers" who came before him. I propose that holiness [i]is[/i] power! You can have miracle-working power without holiness, and you can have holiness WITHOUT working flashy miracles. The common denominator here is holiness, and holy obedience unto God is what we should be focusing on. The gifts and glory will come naturally if you ask. If you have holy obedience, God will give you what you need to be all that He's called you to be. Your cup will run over as He begins revealing His awesome eternal majesty to your soul and all the flashy miracles will then pale in comparison.

You are treading on dangerous ground when you keep putting emphasis on power, power, power. I know where you're coming from, making it real and taking the gospel out to the people. I'm a field evangelist myself, and I've seen God move in incredible ways out on the streets. I've seen him manipulate the weather, and I've seen explosive demonic manifestations. I'm all for signs and wonders, but I never dwell on them. I go after purity, holiness, obedience, humility, and scripture meditation. Like Greg, I also read the great classics, and in particular, the Puritans. God can and does use the writings of the old, holy preachers to sharpen His saints today.

Power can not be separate from holiness, ever. Once you separate the two, you walk on thin ice. Satan is a master deceiver, and if you start flirting with the supernatural, he'll blind your eyes and steal your heart. All along you'll think you're serving God, but you'll be disillusioned. Others saints will be able to discern your folly, but by then you'll be beyond correction. I've seen it happen many, many times.

I commend you for your zeal! You sound like the type of radical guy I'd like to go out and street preach repentance with. If you're living right and have clean hands and a pure heart, God will pour out His power through you without you having to strive or anything. It will be spontaneous and glorious. The important thing is to never try to emulate someone else; just surrender your life under His mighty hand and let God use you according to the plan and purpose He has for your life.

Brother Paul

J
JoeA

He told me just to read the gospels, and that was it, no epistles, nothing...and I haven't read anything since, just assimilating the gospels.

Something about that doesn't seem right. [b]All[/b] Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable. In order to know God's full and complete will, we must digest all of Scripture, not only the Gospels. I do not think God would tell anyone to focus on one portion of His Word and neglect the rest. We must rightly divide the Word of truth brother.

P
Paulf

[b]PaulWest[/b]
Remember, John the Baptist never did one miracle, and yet he was greater than all the other "power workers" who came before him.

But remember, the least in the Kingdom is greater than John the Baptist.

Jesus is our example, He is the one to follow. If He thought the power was unnecessary(power being healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out devils and cleansing the lepers, as well as calming storms, feeding 5,000 with a few loaves, getting money from a fish's mouth...etc.) , He wouldn't have messed with it or commissioned us to walk in it. You can't read Mark without seeing the awesome power of God working through an obedient HOLY man. Jesus is who we follow, every single part, full obedience is not leaving anything out.

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement!!

Paul F.

P
Paulf

[b]JoeA[/b]Something about that doesn't seem right. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable. In order to know God's full and complete will, we must digest all of Scripture, not only the Gospels. I do not think God would tell anyone to focus on one portion of His Word and neglect the rest. We must rightly divide the Word of truth brother.

This is only for a season...not for my entire walk. In the past I would always avoid the gospels because they didn't feed my "hunger for intelligence", I didn't think they were "smart" like Paul's letters. I would've much rather read Romans and Hebrews than the gospels. But He showed me I was trying read everything ABOUT Him without getting to KNOW Him. Big difference. I need to get to know Jesus instead of just knowing about Him. The best place to start is the gospels. And I have to have them planted very firmly in my heart before I can start assimilating the other parts of the bible. And I'll tell you what, Jesus' words are much more deep and intense than Paul's or the other writers...whoa. I love the gospels more than anything now!!! And that's a blessing! He gave me a very specific way to read them and it's worked!


Paul

O
OverSeer

So last month I decided to just go out there and see what I could do. I grab my homemade tracts, my wife and son and we go out to the public to see if God will show up.

Paul, as God has you studying just the gospels, take a close look at how Jesus did ministry. He never decided to just go out there and see what He could do. "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner" (John 5:19). And, "I can do nothing on My own initiative" (John 5:30).
Jesus did not strategize as to how He would seek and save that which is lost but submitted Himself to the Father's strategy of death, burial and resurrection as pictured in His baptism at the Jordan River by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:13-15).
Jesus never leaned on His own understanding but trusted His Father with all His heart as seen in His temptations by the devil and the rest of His ministry (Matthew 4:1-25).
And one of the epistles tell us, "Although He existed in the form of God, He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped (utilized or asserted)" (Philippians 2:6). In other words, Jesus was not guilty of utilitarian religion - of seeking His own glory by using God.
There is a very useful sermon on this subject here at SermonIndex. It is the number one download - [i]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/i] by Paris Reidhead. It is a most profitable word from the Lord.
The Lord also told us that just like He could do nothing of Himself, "apart from Me you (we) can do nothing" (John 15:5). We cannot decide to see what we can do and go out and see if God will show up. All ministry has to be from Him and through Him and then the glory will go to Him (see Romans 11:36).
Grace and peace
Olan

W
WorldView

God desires to work supernaturally in our midst. Will He raise the dead, will He heal the sick? Of course.

David Hogan aside, many people criticize those who have supernatural works in their ministries. Why, mostly because of skepticism and jealousy. This does not go to say that we should not examine the works being done to determine if they are of God or not. I'm sure the devil will do what he can to mix his junk in there where ever he can.

I'm sure if Wigglesworth were still walking the earth today, many of you here would be heavy skeptics of his ministry. I wonder how many people here would be able to recognise Christ if He were walking the earth today. Would I? The truth is, He is and doing so in the lives of people. Though there is probably no one perfectly manifesting the nature of our Savior yet, we should see the Christ in people acknowledging the areas that are not yet conformbed though not in condemnation but with the desire to see this person fully conformed to Christ.

I am not yet fully conformed, but instead of killing me because of my faults, one should endeaver to see me perfected.

The moment we see a tiny thing wrong in someone we run away from them as if they had the plague yet we fail to examine our own life.

The church is doing far more damage to itself than any other group or organization is.

When a person is wounded they dont stab the wound in an effort to destroy it, but they clean the wound, put ointment on it, place a clean bandage on it and then take antiboidics to prevent infection. (I know because I recently punctured by leg tripping on a flight of steps). What does the Body of Christ do? It tries to cut off the limb inorder to disassociate itself with the wound, furthur wounding itself and rendering itself handicaped.

P
Paulf

Paul, as God has you studying just the gospels, take a close look at how Jesus did ministry. He never decided to just go out there and see what He could do.

This is the problem. Instead of trying to build me up and exhort me you want to tear me down. Instead of encouraging me to step forward you want me to hold back.

This isn't an off the cuff deal. I've been seeking the Lord for 2 years for this. This is just the next step.

If you have experience in this then help me out, if not don't try to tear me down and hold me back because you aren't willing to go after it yourself.

Paul

J
jimp

hi,READ THE RED...when i was in the service i would receive letters and if i had one from my mom or a friend and one from my girlfriend who i loved;i would read my girlfriends 10 or so pages many times before opening the others.its a love relationship that we have with a Jesus we know intimately because we have hung on eevery word He uttered and have gotten to KNOW Him personally and intimately.this is the power unto holiness and miracles. when you find out that God loves people;you and me,and desires to do abundantly more than we can ask or think and has in His finished work onthe cross,that we can do no thing without Him.find out who HE is and answer His question,"lovest thou Me?" jimp

T
teavey

I stumbled upon this site by accident looking for something in particular and what do I find but a bunch of people argueing about whether the fact that a man claims to have raised 350 people from the dead has any scriptural foundation because he doesn't 3 points and a poem and exegetes scripture like their favorite preacher. You shall know them by their fruit! Go hang with this man for a year. Too long? how about a week. If you make it that long. You want to join his group of merry men? Go ahead. See if you have the right stuff to hike for hours upon hours to go to the next village where pagan practices are the norm and present the real Jesus to these people. Yes, they have a better understanding of the supernatural than most of us in the church because they actually practice it on a daily basis. Unfortunately, it's on the dark side. ( a little star wars humor there) Because they practice evil, not knowing any better and Mr. Hogan comes in, not just preaching a saving, resurrected Jesus, but in signs and wonders to accompany his words, they, already knowing the manifestations of spiritual things, recognize the real deal when they see it. Once again, I fully expect you to rail against this post along with all of the others that dare to step outside the box of your religious thinking. The real Jesus that you say you seek is waiting, just outside your door ready to go out into the world and be represented by you and me. TODAY! while your busy trying to be all holy and stuff, people are dying. Not just physically, but in every way imaginable. I was there. Not sure about you, but I was born a sinner and was well practiced in the art thereof. I was dying inside. All the religious folk were busy inside their churches being holy while I was working on a way to off myself. Because of my family, who was and still are walking in the fruit of the Spirit, decided to step out and call me up and pray and believe a loving God, who wasn't trying to damn me to hell because I wasn't pious and pretty. They gave me words of comfort to help me get home and get into a church that believed in holiness and the fruit of the spirit and piety and all that and yet still believed that the God of the bible, still confirms with signs following and get me saved. Here it is, some 24 yrs later, and I am still amazed at people who are still in the pews, being holy and the rest of the world is dying.
You'll know them by their fruit.
Fight the good fight, Paulf.
Don't let the Pharisees and the Saduccees get you down.
Walk the walk; but don't forget to talk the talk too.

E
enid

Seems that people have forgotten where God has brought them from. When you got saved, did signs, wonders and miracles mean anything to you? They didn't to me. I just wanted to escape hell, and I did.
Now that you understand the word of God a little more, all that matters is the supernatural, and the boring stuff like going to church, reading the Bible, prayer, being in God's prescence just doesn't cut it.

Sad.

God does still work in the superntural. He is a supernatural almighty God. So He always will.

To bad you don't want Him more than the signs and wonders.

So if you want to seek after signs and wonders go ahead. Just don't be disappointed when you meet upon more failure than success.

God bless.

P
Paulf

[b]teavey[/b]

Well, that was awesome!! Hahaha...thanks for the encouragement brother!

Send me a PM and I'll send you the link to my blog with the sound clips of Mr. Hogan.

Paul

C
crsschk

Don't let the Pharisees and the Saduccees get you down.

Nor mistake them for those who are only trying to test all things as they ought.

teavey, hope you find what you came looking for and much more. This is not but a small sliver of the vast resources available here. Nor is it emblamatic of the heart that pulsates throughout. It is just as grevious to hear a carte blanche statement like;

Once again, I fully expect you to rail against this post along with all of the others that dare to step outside the box of your religious thinking.

Considering yours it but your first posting here.

Am a bit more troubled that one man can generate his own controversy ... about himself, which tends to be the issue often enough. Witness Lee comes to mind in this manner. Often it is the defenders that are more suspect... That is to say, shouldn't a man of God be able to stand on his own merits without a host of supporters raising up an army to defend him?

B
boomatt

Am a bit more troubled that one man can generate his own controversy ... about himself, which tends to be the issue often enough. Witness Lee comes to mind in this manner. Often it is the defenders that are more suspect... That is to say, shouldn't a man of God be able to stand on his own merits without a host of supporters raising up an army to defend him?

Amen crsschk!

O
OverSeer

This is the problem. Instead of trying to build me up and exhort me you want to tear me down. Instead of encouraging me to step forward you want me to hold back
.

You mean to tell me that my "encouraging" you to examine how Jesus did ministry is tearing you down? Search the Scriptures yourself and you will see that I have told you the truth about how Jesus did ministry.

Some things need tearing down - "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh; for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the [b]pulling down[/b] of strong holds; [b]casting down[/b] imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

Was Jesus hated without a cause? All He did was "correct error" by living and teaching truth and it earned Him the hatred of those who were in error.

I was sincere in my encouragement for you to study the gospels to see how Jesus did ministry by faith and not by flesh - we all need to see that!

I was also sincere in recommending the sermon [i]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/i] - https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282

Grace and peace
Olan

M
MSeaman

Brothers and Sisters,

Mark 16:17, 18 says

'and these signs will follow those who believe: In MY name, they will cast out demons, they will speak in new tongues, they will take up serpents and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover.' (NKJV)

Does that mean if they don't, then we are not believers? I don't think so.

Whether or not we think that certain signs and wonders are really from God or counterfeit by the enemy, we bring no Glory to His name by arguing amongst ourselves. I would say, let us each just pray for the TRUTH to be revealed to us by Him, and agree to disagree.

Forgive me for my part in this.

P
Paulf

You mean to tell me that my "encouraging" you to examine how Jesus did ministry is tearing you down? Search the Scriptures yourself and you will see that I have told you the truth about how Jesus did ministry.

This is what I find interesting. You wouldn't even believe in Jesus if He didn't produce the signs and wonders. He would've just been written off as a nut philosopher.

The same thing about Paul. Paul's word was kept and remained strong because of his apostolic authority demonstrated with sings and wonders.

And then we have:

Heb 2:4 "3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 [b][u][i]God also bearing them witness[/i][/u], both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? [/b]"

Is God bearing our words witness?

Olan, why are you trying to correct me. I have a sanctified lifestyle. I'm in the midst of obeying Luke 14:25-35. I'm sold out to the Lord, COMPLETELY. Why can't I add to myself the power of God? And why do you seem so against it? Why are you trying to talk me out of it?

There are only 2 chapters in Mark that don't contain at least one mighty work and miracle of God worked through Jesus' hands. And one of those 2 chapters could be marked as prophecy (where he talks about the end times), but I'll give that to you. The other chapter is 15 that describes His crucifixion.

Why not accept all of Jesus' teachings instead of the ones that keep us safe?

Paul

P
Paulf

I was also sincere in recommending the sermon Ten Shekels and a Shirt - https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282

How do you think it applies to me and this post?

Paul

E
enid

Pretty wordy character aren't you Paulf?

Ten Shekels and a Shirt is recommended to everyone upon joining this forum. Good forum too!

You get all type on this forum. So many agreeing and disagreeing. It's intresting!

God bless.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi teavey...

I stumbled upon this site by accident looking for something in particular and what do I find but a bunch of people argueing about whether the fact that a man claims to have raised 350 people from the dead has any scriptural foundation because he doesn't 3 points and a poem and exegetes scripture like their favorite preacher. You shall know them by their fruit! Go hang with this man for a year. Too long? how about a week. If you make it that long. You want to join his group of merry men? Go ahead. See if you have the right stuff to hike for hours upon hours to go to the next village where pagan practices are the norm and present the real Jesus to these people. Yes, they have a better understanding of the supernatural than most of us in the church because they actually practice it on a daily basis. Unfortunately, it's on the dark side. ( a little star wars humor there) Because they practice evil, not knowing any better and Mr. Hogan comes in, not just preaching a saving, resurrected Jesus, but in signs and wonders to accompany his words, they, already knowing the manifestations of spiritual things, recognize the real deal when they see it.
The problem with this statement is that it is defense of the [u]claims[/u] of David Hogan, rather than from something you know firsthand. I have sat in his meetings, and I can say with certainty that his messages and claims often did [u]not[/u] line up with the Word of God.

Now, I am not talking about doctrinal issues or disputes that are not completely clear from the Word of God. I believe that God allows us the room to make up our own minds and even disagree with others about many issues. I disagree with many wonderful brothers and sisters in the Lord, but I do not consider my doctrinal beliefs "superior" to the beliefs of others. I try to always realize the possibility of being wrong in certain areas.

But David Hogan's "messages" were often filled with subtle notions that are beyond mere disagreements. He made many claims, some almost arrogantly, that were typically based upon his supposed "experiences." His claims were often filled with supernatural tales of demonic activity. Yes, the supernatural world is real -- but he even made claims of infants being demon-possessed. He made claims of the devil physically "chasing" him through a small village (the devil even took the time to open and close a gate at the beginning of the chase). He claims to have spoken with a 10-12 foot owl, one that ironically said, "[i][b][u]Who[/u][/b] do you think you are? [b][u]Who[/u][/b] are you to think that you can have this town[/i]?"

What made the matter worse at those meetings was that Mr. Hogan allowed no room for disagreement. Instead, he strutted around on the stage boasting about his own authority and power over "[i]demons, death and disease[/i]." He chided anyone that would possibly disagree with him, warning that they would be "believing lies." He also stated emphatically that if you did not get "slain in the spirit" when he laid his hands upon you, then you were "[i]fighting the Holy Ghost[/i]." Of course, "[i]God told him[/i]" to stand everyone on stage so that he could "impart his annointing" to everyone else. I must confess that it was the only time that I have ever been pushed (or actually, pulled) down by a preacher. When Mr. Hogan pushed on my forehead, his buddies that stood behind me pulled my shoulders down forcefully. Of course, he claimed over the microphone as I "fell" that "the fire of the Holy Ghost" was all over me.

As for your notion of joining Mr. Hogan in Mexico, I would also suggest that individuals could also walk with other local Mexican pastors and evangelists. Yes, there is evil in the remote indigenous mountains of Mexico. But I would argue that there is far less (or less blatant) than what is found in suburban communities in the United States or the United Kingdom. Besides, there is no reason to fear the darkness. If God sent us, it is up to Him to protect us. Regardless, to "live is Christ and to die is gain."

Personally, I believe that much of what David Hogan claims as his "experiences" are false. Why would he make such claims? That is a good question. But history has shown many "peachers" that have falsified testimonies of the supernatural for one reason or other. Whether they do it to maintain the credibility of their authority, or whether they simply desire to deceive is beside the point. But I have often noticed that such claims have created an unhealthy fascination with the supernatural in Churches. When such men preach, people often are subtly led to place their physical eyes on the "seen" supernatural rather than what is "unseen." How many charismatic services have you attended or heard about where believers are looking for gold dust, gold fillings, haze, stretched legs (the oldest trick in the book), etc..? The object of our fascination and desire should always be Christ alone. Everything else should be regarded as secondary.

But that does not mean that God doesn't indeed perform awesome works in Mexico. I have seen and experienced some incredible things in my trips into the rugged mountains of the Sierra Madre Occidental and the Yucatan. But I don't judge my beliefs about the Word of God or spiritual matters upon my experiences. Rather, I judge my experiences by the Word of God. I suggest that we should take Paul's instruction to "test everything" to heart (I Thessalonians 5:21). Whether we are testing the testimonies or David [i]Hogan[/i] or David [i]Wilkerson[/i] -- we must always remember to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15).

:-)

S
sermonindex

I think we are missing alot here. I believe God has really spoken through a few brothers to bring the all pivotal and paramount point that it is [b]godliness[/b] (fruit of the Spirit) that is the epitome of the Spiritual life and not supernatural manifestations and gifts of the Spirit.

Discernment is hardly the mystical talent some make it out to be! How puzzling that there are many supernatural men conducting amazing supernatural services that have Christians swooning...but look alittle closer and we see these same supernatural men are void of the fruit of Spirit.

In no way are people blanket judging David Hogan but this example of his life and ministry is bringing up a bigger concern that resonates in my heart and the hearts of many brothers and sisters on sermonindex; that being of a lack of Christ-likeness and Scriptural relevancy in ministries and lifes such as Hogan.

[b]This is just the problem...too many 'moves' of God today don't have both. Power of signs is in fashion...but holiness, the power of Godliness holds little attraction for most of the leading and influencial supernatural ministries in America today. [/b]

If I had to choose between a church where uncompromised holiness was being preached from the pulpit and a church where the Pastor was not very solid scripturally but the dead were being raised and people were leaping out of wheelchairs, I would choose the first church without hesitation.

"A man of God who truly works for the Lord doesn't need to go around wildly boasting about what he does for the Lord."

This above quote is speaking about the fruit of the spirit known as "humility" which characterized the life of Jesus Christ in the gospels.



Heal the sick: I've prayed for 9 this past month after deciding to "Go" according to verse 7, none of them instantly healed.

Raise the dead: 0 [never attempted]

Cleanse the lepers:0 [never attempted]

Drive out demons: I've tried, but 0

Sounds like I have some work to do, don't you think?


Frankly brother look at what you are saying, try seeking God in prayer and asking for Christ-likeness to walk in the likeness of Christ on this earth. I am sure some of things could happen as a result but sincerly the most important things will be a transformed life in Humility, Honesty, Hope, Holiness and many other spiritual characteristics.

I heard in your post brother Paul stating to just go out and preach the kingdom of God as Jesus did in doing miricales. But we have to realize that most Christians living in sin, walking in compromise, worldliness, not in holiness go out and try to represent the kingdom of God it will do more harm then good. It is like what Horatious Bonar stated 300 years ago: "I looked for the church and found it in the world and looked for the world and found it in the church." We need a "baptism of Holiness" in our day. For God to truly set apart His Church for Himself. Then and only then will we be effective for the kingdom.

Have you read the history of the Salvation army? have you read the tenets they believed in? I would encourage you to do so, they hit the streets and preached Christ! saw many come to Him and even miriciales happen but also persecution untold and much anguish in prayer for the souls of men.

I am not un-believing in the virtue of healing and miricales but Jesus said the last days will be as sodom and gommorah or as noah. Do you think there were many signs and wonders happening in those days? just a thought that came to mind, I am not standing on it dogmatically.

Friend, you keep talking about power as if it were a separate thing from holiness. What exactly do you mean when you say power? The ability to do tangible miracles like David Hogan?

This is a great point. I would rather have power over sin then power to do miricales! may Romans 6:7 become a reality to us all.

You are treading on dangerous ground when you keep putting emphasis on power, power, power. I know where you're coming from, making it real and taking the gospel out to the people. I'm a field evangelist myself, and I've seen God move in incredible ways out on the streets. I've seen him manipulate the weather, and I've seen explosive demonic manifestations. I'm all for signs and wonders, but I never dwell on them. I go after purity, holiness, obedience, humility, and scripture meditation. Like Greg, I also read the great classics, and in particular, the Puritans. God can and does use the writings of the old, holy preachers to sharpen His saints today.

Amen.

This is only for a season...not for my entire walk. In the past I would always avoid the gospels because they didn't feed my "hunger for intelligence"

Paul here is the problem right here, I don't read any of the Scriptures to feed intelligence but rather to hear the voice of God and understand more rightly the God I serve daily. Perhaps you need to go back to the epistles with a humilty to experience God and not grow in just theological knoweldge, as the dear brother said "ALL scripture" is given to us, including the old testament, the apostles had the old testament as their "bible" and they mostly quoted it in the new.

This is the problem. Instead of trying to build me up and exhort me you want to tear me down. Instead of encouraging me to step forward you want me to hold back.

Brother these forums are for the edifying of the saints, if some people address you with scriptures it is hopefully out of earnest concern for you to come into all truth. The people on this forum really desire for God to move in our generation and to see the "apostolic" original be restored to the church. We are not "tearing down" but wanting to "build" the right things up!

while your busy trying to be all holy and stuff, people are dying.

I am sorry to say brother but your post is full of the excuses and phrases that many modern day charismatic ministries will give to show forth their degenerate worldly form of Christianity. Ravenhill said "this generation is the most undiscipled of all church history." Our generation I believe is one of the most worldy of all church generations, holiness is lost we wouldn't even know what it was if we saw it. We lack any desire to understand and read the bible, there is a whole new phraseology devoloped in the modern day church. The apostles would feel out of place in our modern day churches, they would be grieved.

sadly Jesus Christ is grieving over this generation.Oh for a revival of Spirit and Truth, of the "apostolic sort" this is what we need. Corrective movements are not needed any more, we need balance, true discipleship, true Christianity.

As I said before I have seen so many abuses in modern day Spirit-filled ministries to acredit that as "true christianity" it does not fit the mold. The Spirit of God cannot tolerate falsehood, He [b]IS[/b], is is is is the Spirit of TRUTH!! we have to accept this, there is no other choice. May we all have the strength to drop that which is untrue and pursue what is true even though seeing all the false excesses.

I was also sincere in recommending the sermon Ten Shekels and a Shirt - https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282

Paul, If you followed the directions in joining the forums with a welcome message it would always be posted and recommended for new visitors to listen to that message and others. The most recommended way to join a forum community is to post reply's and a welcome message until you get to know some of the wonderful brothers and sisters that God has drawn together here.

In my estimation it is one of the most pivital messages in the 20th century that has been preached. It does relate to some things discussed in this forum and I am sure is in the breast of many that are posting replies to this thread.

P
Paulf

[b]sermonindex[/b]I believe God has really spoken through a few brothers to bring the all pivotal and paramount point that it is godliness (fruit of the Spirit) that is the epitome of the Spiritual life and not supernatural manifestations and gifts of the Spirit.

What if, really, what if, we had people walking NOT ONLY in godliness/holiness, but in power as well? This is all I'm saying.

Our whole walk with the Lord shouldn't be all about us becoming holy in our closets...it is to share the gospel of the Kingdom [b]WITH and IN[/b] holiness. As we [b]go[/b], the Lord will continue to develop holiness in us.


In no way are people blanket judging David Hogan but this example of his life and ministry is bringing up a bigger concern that resonates in my heart and the hearts of many brothers and sisters on sermonindex; that being of a lack of Christ-likeness and Scriptural relevancy in ministries and lifes such as Hogan.

That's a pretty awkward statement don't you think? Rather subjective unless you truely know him.

Do you not realize that Christ-likeness is walking in holiness and power. Not one or the other??

Frankly brother look at what you are saying, try seeking God in prayer and asking for Christ-likeness to walk in the likeness of Christ on this earth.

This is part of the problem at hand. You're assuming that I haven't or that I'm not.

I've been in the closet for 2 years with continual fasting and praying. It wasn't until recently that I realized that what I do in secret He will reward OPENLY....I'm just now getting to the OPEN rewards.

I'm ADDING TO my character the power of God. I'm not laying one down for the other.

But we have to realize that most Christians living in sin, walking in compromise, worldliness, not in holiness go out and try to represent the kingdom of God it will do more harm then good.

But you're not are you? You've been sanctified from holiness haven't you? Don't let others excuse you from the full calling of the gospel.

This is a great point. I would rather have power over sin then power to do miricales! may Romans 6:7 become a reality to us all.

In order for this "apostolic" movement you are crying out for, you must get over this one or the other thing. It's not a rather this or that.

If we're all trying to mimic Paul's character and holiness, why not mimic his power too?!

I am sorry to say brother but your post is full of the excuses and phrases that many modern day charismatic ministries will give to show forth their degenerate worldly form of Christianity. Ravenhill said "this generation is the most undiscipled of all church history." Our generation I believe is one of the most worldy of all church generations, holiness is lost we wouldn't even know what it was if we saw it. We lack any desire to understand and read the bible, there is a whole new phraseology devoloped in the modern day church. The apostles would feel out of place in our modern day churches, they would be grieved.

Ravenhill also said if he would've been in charge he would've closed all the churches so that we wouldn't add on to ourselves condemnation. Because we don't DO the word we have in our hearts. And it's not all about becomming holy, that's only to allow the Spirit to move through us more freely, it's not so that we can stand in our own righteousness.

Brother Greg. You are an example. You know all these things about holiness and character, you've listened to all the sermons and read all the books...I'm not saying lay that down, I'm saying, add to it. Add to it the power of the gospel that when you lay your hands on the sick they will become healed and then you can turn to them and say "Your sins are forgiven and your spirit is healed just as you see your body has been healed."

Remember in one of my last few posts:

[i]"these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. "[/i]

Let's get it ALL Greg, let's walk in the [b]fullness[/b] of the gospel...not parts of it.

What do you say?

Paul

C
CJaKfOrEsT


sermonindex wrote:
It seems like you want to throw the one out mostly and go with the "power" or "manifestations" rather then be based on the Word of God. I agree that the Scriptures alone testify of the living Christ but we can never forsake the Scriptures we need to esteem, meditate on them and teach them constantly, this doesn't formulate into dry religion.

"Christianity is life, not theology." - Leonard Ravenhill

But that does not mean that the "bible" is sub-standard or as soon as we get the presence of God and the power of God the bible goes out the door, but sadly that is happening in many churches where there is a move of the Spirit of God.

I think that this is the distinguishing factor in Hogan's ministry. He is someone whose message can be summed up as, "Get out there and do it, and stop letting the world stop you.

I have a friend who puts David up when he comes to Australia (he's in Queensland). A few years ago, Alan (my friend) was at a point of spiritual frustration. As a pastor, his church was in decline, and he was frustrated his the lack of micarulous power being manifested, so he contacted David, and went over to Mexico to spend some time with him.

One of the things Alan said was that when you go over there, all romantic illusions regarding Hogan's minitry were shattered. Every night he had to kill upwards of a dozen tarantulas before going to bed. He made mention of witches infiltrating prayer meetings, by transforming into animals (this is his testimony, and I have no reason to doubt him). I have heard Hogan state that he believes that the reason why God manifests such miracles in Mexico is because the witch doctors are waiting for the Christians to leave, and they demonstrate real power.

When Alan prayed with Hogan and his ministers, heobserved that David simply poured out raw Scripture and his praying was centred on an appreciation for what God had done, and not "begging" for Him to do something (Note that these prayer meeting would usually go for over eight hours).

Alan mentioned that when he was there, he felt like he had crossed into a deeper level of spiritual reality, which made him think that he had "arrived", mind you, when he stepped off the plane, he reaised that he d only stepped one rung onto the true ladder. It wasn't the miracles and the manifestations that did it for him, it was seeing the reality ofworship in Hogan's ministers and their dependance on Him, which was displaye in a ferrocious tenacity toward prayer and evengelism.

Alan's church is now truly a house of prayer. He preaches repentence from sin, and faith in Christ, and yet multitudes are being added daily. They are seeing many Muslims coming to Christ, and initially they didn't have to go looking for them, they just came.

The only accusation that I could level David Hogan, from my observations, is that his faith is a little too simple (but is that such a bad thing?). His message for the West is "We minister in a hot bed on poverty, disease and demonism, what's your excuse?" Does anyone else consider it shameful that God would take a Texan, send him to third-world Mexico, and them bring him back to chide us about our apathy? Put Hogan's message in this context, and I think that it will make more sence. He isn't saying that we need to do miracles, he's saying that miracles are manifesting through him, in spite of excessive resistance to his ministry.

J
jimp

hi, i came not with excellence of speech but with demonstration of power by the Holy Spirit...paul the sick are healed, the dead are raised, the poor hear the gospel....Jesus what is your evidence? jimp

W
WorldView

hmmm...I sence that a wrong spirit has entered this thread.

Often times I find my self hesitant to post because there are those who stand with a ready sword looking to come in for the kill. This should not be so. I wonder how many of these whom I speak of will rise up against me due to this post?

I'm sure that David Hogan has some errors in his ministry as MANY ministers do. Take the meat; spit out the bones. As for the nay sayers, are Hogan's claims of the supernatural false? None of us seems to have any factual evidence clearly disproving Hogan's testimonies, so maybe we should be a bit hesitant before we flat out call this man a liar.

It seems that only a few of us here have actually had a personal encounter with this man or his ministry but everyone else is basing their judgementrs on hearsay, with the excpetion of those who read his sermons. Though reading his sermons or hearing an audio clip is much different than hearing a person preach personally and even more so than talking one on one.

Some people like to use the Word of God to wound their fellow Christians, rather than build them up. There are many who have used the Word of God to justify things that they are doing wrongly or with the wrong motive, I even see it in some people's posts on this thread. The Word of God is part of our spiritual weapenry accprding to Ephesians 6, let us use it correctly. The Word of God is Truth, but even Truth can be used wrongly. Yes, it can. Once agin, yes it can be used wrongly.

Do you properly weild the Sword of the Spirit? Within my spirit I can see an image of a person who is picking up the Sword of the Spirit but does not have the skill to use it, and in an arrogant attempt to impress others, he ends up wildly waving it about, doing much more damage than good.

Be careful,
Keith

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi WorldView...

hmmm...I sence that a wrong spirit has entered this thread.

Often times I find my self hesitant to post because there are those who stand with a ready sword looking to come in for the kill. This should not be so. I wonder how many of these whom I speak of will rise up against me due to this post?

I'm sure that David Hogan has some errors in his ministry as MANY ministers do. Take the meat; spit out the bones. As for the nay sayers, are Hogan's claims of the supernatural false? None of us seems to have any factual evidence clearly disproving Hogan's testimonies, so maybe we should be a bit hesitant before we flat out call this man a liar.

I suppose that the point that I am trying to make is that people should [u]NOT[/u] believe [i]any[/i] man based upon his words, testimony or tales of the supernatural. There may be some people that actually believe that an infant can be demon posessed (as Mr. Hogan claims). They may believe that he spoke to a 10-12 foot owl, watched witches morph into animals, and have invisible demons physically chase him (while being polite enough to open and close gates). There may be people that honestly believe that David Hogan raised 350 people from the dead (without the secular world ever finding out).

The point that I am trying to make is we should not be gullible enough to believe everything that we hear or even "see" -- unless what we hear or see is undisputably lines up with the Word of God. I feel that we are often too quick to believe something and consider it truth without testing it. Every time that I have ever spoken to group, I have asked them to verify my words. I often tell others that they would make me happy if they would simply not believe what I say, but search the Scriptures to see whether what I say is true.

After having sat through David Hogan meetings, he is not like that. He doesn't allow anyone to question his "authority" or "experiences." Rather, he says that it is a display of a "lack of faith." I have never once believed that the Lord would be displeased with a person who loved him enough to believe only his Word. Remember, we are encouraged to "[i]let God be true and every man a liar[/i]!"

Sadly, there are believers that would believe [i][u]anything[/u][/i] if were told by their pastor, a teacher, or a man that either include tales of the supernatural or displayed miracles. The Word of God warns us continually to be sober, vigilant and aware of false prophets and false teachers -- some that even perform false signs and lying wonders. There are many such false teachers on radio and TV stations that make wild claims of prosperity and the supernatural. And unfortunately, there are believers that will valiantly defend the claims of such men from doubt or criticism without realizing that they are criticizing something far more "noble" (Acts 17:11).

:-)

M
MrBillPro


Paulf wrote:
His ministry (not all by him personally) is said to have somewhere around 350 people raised from the dead. Pretty impressive I think.
Be Blessed,
Paul

Hey maybe he can start working on Churches next raising some of them from the dead. ;-)

S
sermonindex

What do you say?

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
-2 Timothy 4:3-5

P
Paulf

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
-2 Timothy 4:3-5

What is this a food fight?

Do you realize we aren't talking about David Hogan anymore? We're talking about you and me and our commitment to the full gospel of the Kingdom in holiness AND in power.

Look at the last 6 words of the verse you gave me: [i][b]"make full proof of thy ministry."[/b][/i]

Who wrote that? Paul...who also wrote:

Romans 15:19 "[b][i][u]Through mighty signs and wonders[/u][/i][/b], by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, "[b][i][u]I have fully preached the gospel of Christ[/u][/i][/b]."

2 Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Really Greg, why are you fighting against me? What am I presenting that is wrong? You've brought up holiness and godliness, and I've addressed it correctly. I'm not taking away, but adding to. What is it I'm saying that is causing you to repel against me? What is the heart of the issue? And it has nothing to do with David Hogan...


Paul

S
sermonindex

Really Greg, why are you fighting against me? What am I presenting that is wrong? You've brought up holiness and godliness, and I've addressed it correctly. I'm not taking away, but adding to. What is it I'm saying that is causing you to repel against me? What is the heart of the issue? And it has nothing to do with David Hogan...

What has God predestined us to? to be conformed into the image of His Son. I do also want to preach a [b]full[/b] gospel that Jesus preached, peter preached and paul preached. But we can't emphasize signs and wonders out of proportion.

some are preaching: signs and wonders, signs and wonders, signs and wonders! It draws crowds and gets attention but when the true gospel is preached many leave, and even at one point asks his disciples (the 12) will you leave also? why were the signs and wonders not effective to bring people into discipleship in that case?

I am not nullifying the use of miricales in the gospels but I am saying that its not the armchair to rest upon but rather a outflow of true gospel preaching, but does true gospel preaching need to be accompained by signs and wonders, no. What I would worry more about is preaching a true gospel message instead of worrying about getting "power" so when you say a message it has the "bang" with it. God is soveriegn, he will represent his name as we step out to preach his word.

But many are preaching "other gospels", gospels of prosperity, of humanism, of no self-denial, of no holiness, of no actual regernation where people become radically different and life for a TOTALLY different set of values, namely those that are eternal.

We have to realize that there are not only false Christ's and Gospels but also false SIGNS AND WONDERS, that even the VERY elect will be decieved. So when I hear and see so much reliance, teaching and unbalanced concern on signs and wonders I get abit of weary and I have a full right to due to scripture. Brother I am not judging that all miricales are bad but we should be desiring after the things that are first and trust that other things come in place. How can we make signs and wonders happen, I am not in unbelief of the GREAT God I serve, I am in such bankruptcy and need when I go out on the streets to preach the kingdom of God to people. He has and will meet me and use me, and even through miricales but Oh I do not rely on dwell on that but rather on Christ Himself and preaching HIM crucified.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew [b]great signs and wonders[/b]; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
-Matthew 24:24

M
MrBillPro


Paulf wrote:
His ministry (not all by him personally) is said to have somewhere around 350 people raised from the dead. Pretty impressive I think.
Paul

One issue I personally see here is "HIS" ministry did not raise 350 people from the dead,Maybe their prayers thru Jesus Christ raised 350 from the dead.
And really it's not his ministry it's Jesus Christ's ministry, remember "everything" belongs to God, this is so easy to forget sometimes especially for most evangelicals because there is a lot of them that have the rock star syndrome because folks that don't know Jesus Christ will give the Glory to the Preacher unless told otherwise and how many do?

S
sermonindex

When Alan prayed with Hogan and his ministers, heobserved that David simply poured out raw Scripture and his praying was centred on an appreciation for what God had done, and not "begging" for Him to do something (Note that these prayer meeting would usually go for over eight hours).

Aaron, that was a good post, and a good testimony about how Hogan comports himself.

In the past I've listened to sound files of him, over at fire on the altar I think, and I liked what I heard, but then I started to hear about the large numbers of dead being raised. It's not that I DIDN'T believe him, but rather that in the Spirit I didn't feel a LEADING to closely follow his ministry.

Nothing against him, I find myself gravitating more towards reading Brainerd, or Bonhoeffer, as well as just reading the Bible over and over, start to finish. The ministry of John Sung always has attracted me, when John got ignited by the Holy Spirit when he was in Ohio, "concerned" faculty got him committed to an insane asylum for 193 days. (this was in the 1920's when people could get away with that)

John Sung said during this 193 days he read the Bible over 40 times, each time concentrating on a certain aspect of the faith, whether it be love, holiness, repentance, etc. He said this was his true seminary, those 193 days in the insane asylum, and it was his professors that had him committed, seminarians no less. Fellow "believers" had him committed.

John Sung then went on to complete the work his Father had entrusted to him, the evangelization of China, what a worm of Christ this was!

[url=http://www.watchword.org/smithers/ww51a.html]Read about John Sung[/url]

Today the underground house church in China is estimated at 100 million believers.

John Sung was able to fearlessly call out backslidden ministers to turn, to repent, but he did it to their face, in meetings.

Here's what grieves me, and really makes me want to fast from this forum; there's a religious spirit on this forum, with a lot of cyber "wallwatchers" impotently screeching and slamming other minstries. (Greg, I beg your forgiveness, not trying to start trouble, just calling as I see it)

And if one thinks this is unique among Christians, think again. The other day I was relecting on the events in the UK, the uncovering of the jihadist plot to destroy civilian aircraft over the Atlantic. I wanted to see what kind of spirit is among muslims, so I went to an islamic discussion forum at a site called Islamicity dot com. I had to register to even read the posts, which I did, and guess what I found?

The same kind of religious arguing and tusssling over issues in their faith, mixed with, I might add, an intense stream of anti-US, and anti-Israeli bile and bitterness. It was absolutely depressing. Not so much the political rhetoric, that I expect, but in many aspects it looked like this forum, only difference being was that they were muslim.

It was at that point that I realized that war, religious war is inevitable. We can't even turn the other cheek on this forum, that is regarding ministers who we regard as apostate or false, we can't even give them up to prayer, or just simply and silently hand them over to satan to be taught not to blaspheme, we have to slame and slime a man, and in the most cowardly way, behind his back, thats called gossip. and then we use Scriptures to justify this gossiping, and argue over the letter of the law and not the Spirit.

I loathe religion, because religion kills, only Jesus saves.

Lord bless you is my prayer, and I also beg forgiveness if I have offended anyone.

bartle

M
MrBillPro


bartle wrote:
We can't even turn the other cheek on this forum, that is regarding ministers who we regard as apostate or false, we can't even give them up to prayer, or just simply and silently hand them over to satan to be taught not to blaspheme, we have to slame and slime a man, and in the most cowardly way, behind his back, thats called gossip.
bartle

bartle, You have not offended anyone I don't think, But it "is" our responsibility if the spirit moves us to expose ministers or ministries who we regard as apostate or false, how would you feel if you were looking for a new Church home and someone recommended one to you that was of false teachings and they knew but would not tell you? wouldn't you rather this persons ministry be exposed were you would already know ahead of time so you could by-pass this ministry and continue searching? I don't see a thing wrong "if" your spirit leads you to expose different ministries but even then you have to do it in a Christ like manner and that is were some fall short.
For me personally I would say the same to there face if I had that option as I would here, but that's sort of almost impossible for most of us so we have to let folks know some how, and me personally I sure am not a coward at all but because I can't say what I want to say to there face don't mean "if" I am led by my Spirit to make folks aware of this person or ministry I'm not because if the Holy Spirit tells me to I will.

C
crsschk

Whoa there brothers ...

Please give this a gander;
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=11804&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]A Critical Spirit[/url]

Paulf,

For bringing forth what is obviously a very controversial individual must say your demeanor here has been very pleasant overall and think a large part of all this is a great deal of misunderstanding.

Bartle, just as well I hope you can forbear with me here a moment.

Gentleman, we try very hard to keep a modicum of decency and an open dialouge to work through matters and this can be painful to hear;

Here's what grieves me, and really makes me want to fast from this forum; there's a religious spirit on this forum, with a lot of cyber "wallwatchers" impotently screeching and slamming other minstries. (Greg, I beg your forgiveness, not trying to start trouble, just calling as I see it)

There are ten items up at any given time on the main page of this forum, please don't whitewash everything this way, it is just not so. Granted there is some truth in what you are saying unfortunately and as I alluded to earlier somewhere, it can come in waves especially when the subject matter is of a controversial sort. It can take both some pains and some patience to work through things.

There is a lot of assumptions being made from all sides and it can get rather ugly sometimes trying to speak generally as well as specifically. It is just as difficult to pick through each and every instance of undue criticism and address it, often times the hope is that some things are left by speaking generally and those that need to hear it do and ponder on it. But to say or allude that there is a 'religious spirit' predominant over the Holy Spirit as the heartbeat that pulsates here ... I digress. I do understand brothers, have been around here for some time and have been deeply grieved over these same matters and have spoken to many of them best I can... We attempted as much up in the Welcome Section here. There is so much more that goes on here beyond the issues being wrangled over at any one given moment, so many life changing resources, penetrating, challenging, heart rending and heart rapturing, joyful truths ....

One of the problems as I see it from this standpoint goes back to categorizing matters into camps ... Have babbled on about this already. See the thread above. To be perfectly frank about this gentleman, Mr. Hogan, I don't know what to make of him, have no desire leaning one way or the other, he seems to be what Andrew Strom mentioned about William Branham, an enigma, a puzzlement. From hearing all this here it almost sounds like two completely different people. The problems stem from making an easy labeling of supporters and detractors rather than to just look at the matters at hand and leave the character aspects alone.

Chris brought forth some troubling things that have not been addressed by the 'supporters' (am not trying to be derogatory but these seem to be the way we often find ourselves waring against each other), the "Ten Foot Owl" and so on. Others have expressed a completely different aspect from their experience or understanding, things by way of acquaintance what have you.

Is it not just as disingenuous to cast off the problematic aspects and make the issue one of only criticism and a religious spirit as it is for those that have gone to far and not allowed the other voices to challenge their own assumptions? Did that make sense? It's an honest question...

It was at that point that I realized that war, religious war is inevitable. We can't even turn the other cheek on this forum, that is regarding ministers who we regard as apostate or false, we can't even give them up to prayer, or just simply and silently hand them over to satan to be taught not to blaspheme, we have to slame and slime a man, and in the most cowardly way, behind his back, thats called gossip. and then we use Scriptures to justify this gossiping, and argue over the letter of the law and not the Spirit.

Think you do have a point here to an extent... How much from either 'side' is really assumption and\\or here-say? How much is factual ... and it gets tricky here ... from what Mr. Hogan himself has claimed, what others have said, what is truly [i]known[/i] or is merely supported because of other elements that are to a particular liking? And yes, how much of it is just plain gossip?

As ugly as these things can be, they are telling and showing forth what is in our hearts by way of our expressions and can be quite helpful [i]if[/i] we will but allow ourselves to be contemplative and challenged by what each of us individually is saying.

P
Paulf

[b]Greg: [/b]What has God predestined us to? to be conformed into the image of His Son.

I agree completely. The [b]complete[/b] image of His son.


What I would worry more about is preaching a true gospel message instead of worrying about getting "power" so when you say a message it has the "bang" with it. God is soveriegn, he will represent his name as we step out to preach his word.

What if you have a true gospel message, can we then work on the power to accompany it? I feel God has finally taught me the message of "Repent, the Kingdom is here". Is it not right to desire His gifts now?

I would assume that you know the true gospel message and can articulate it properly. Does He represent His word with signs and wonders according to Matthew 10:7-8 as you preach it? If not, is it your fault or His?

You see it was the disciples fault that they couldn't get the demon out of the boy at the bottom of the mountain. Jesus was even frustrated at the situation. And this was AFTER they have been successful in healing the sick, casting out devils, etc. How much more is Jesus frustrated with us if we don't even try? Jesus did end up healing the boy, so that means the disciples were in the right in their attempt. I don't think it's a sovereign deal, He's already spoken, it's more of an obedience thing.

How many of us has ever thought to ourselves, "Jesus may be frustrated with me because this person didn't get healed."? It's quite a paradigm shift isn't it?

Is what I'm saying accurate? Is it not scriptural?

Again, and again, I'm not trying to over emphasize signs and wonders, I am just up lifting them out of the dirt where the church has muddied and trampled over them.

[b]Greg: [/b]But many are preaching "other gospels", gospels of prosperity, of humanism, of no self-denial, of no holiness, of no actual regernation where people become radically different and life for a TOTALLY different set of values, namely those that are eternal.

Listen Greg, it's not about what other people are preaching. It's about you and me, the only 2 people here we can account for. You don't have to be afraid of becoming one of them. Because you do have a strong strong foundation of holiness and sanctification. If anything, you should be the one to set the example.

As for myself. Since last October the Lord has burned in my heart Luke 14:25-35. And I've been working that out ever since. I've quit my job of 7 years, we've given away about half of everything we own, and just this March we put our house up for sale. My wife, my 3 year old son, and I are done with the world and we're going to live for the Kingdom now...at all cost. You should read this revelation my wife got about having a martyred spirit, it's unbelievable!

I'm not sure if I can post this or not, you can tell me to take it off and I will, but I wrote a short letter about "The Cost of the Treasure":
http://paulferree.com/blog/2006/06/07/easter-letter-2006-cost-of-the-treasure/

I'm not trying to say all these things to boast or make myself appear better than anybody. I'm just showing you that I am not this fly-by-night flaky christian who only wants to flaunt my "power" in front of churches so I can get their money. I'm not even called to the church, I'm called to neighborhoods. It's a grass roots movement that the Lord seems to be raising up.

Like I said before, it's not a one or the other, it's ALL of it. And, I'm sorry Greg, ALL of it includes signs and wonders, and I think you're aware of that.

We have to realize that there are not only false Christ's and Gospels but also false SIGNS AND WONDERS, that even the VERY elect will be decieved. So when I hear and see so much reliance, teaching and unbalanced concern on signs and wonders I get abit of weary and I have a full right to due to scripture. Brother I am not judging that all miricales are bad but we should be desiring after the things that are first and trust that other things come in place.

There were false signs and wonders when Moses began His obedience, but it didn't stop Him because His were true and they trumped the witchcraft! Moses' staff devoured Pharoah's remember. Just because there is false humility, false holiness, and false gospels, doesn't mean you don't pursue the true humility, holiness, and gospel, right?


How can we make signs and wonders happen, I am not in unbelief of the GREAT God I serve, I am in such bankruptcy and need when I go out on the streets to preach the kingdom of God to people.

Like I said. The disciples not only believed that they could cast out demons, they actually did it! And then they came across some demons they couldn't get rid of. Jesus told them it was because of their unbelief.

I think unbelief has multiple layers, and it's not all covered in the fact that you believe in Jesus. He contiues to push into areas that will tear down our flesh so His Spirit can reign in our lives.

Honestly Greg, and I don't intend to be rude, but just this conversation shows how difficult it seems for you to accept a true ministry with signs and wonders that follow. I'm not speaking about David Hogan, I'm talking about your true ministry. You, like many others, have been genuinely hurt by the people who have misused God's name and ministry, but that can't stop us from presenting the true Kingdom, in ALL of it's glory.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
-Matthew 24:24

Don't let this be an excuse for you not being a true prophet with signs and wonders that help build up the elect in the time of their deception!

Signs and miracles are simply tools for doing the Lord's work. Just like 1 wrench isn't used to repair a car. You need a wide array of tools in order to get the job done correctly.

Just like signs won't guarantee true discipleship or even conversion, a sermon doesn't either. But that doesn't mean you take sermonindex.net offline right?

[b]Mike: [/b]Chris brought forth some troubling things that have not been addressed by the 'supporters'

I really try to stay away from defending David Hogan. For one, it's not my place. Also, I don't really care to, it's not my fault nor is it my responsibility.

We could spend a ton of wasted time on arguing about a man that none of us really know, and probably will never know. I've heard the owl story, and I love it. Will I ever know if it really really really happened? Probably not. Can I choose to believe it or disbelieve it, sure. I choose to believe it. Just like I choose to believe Jesus walked on water, changed water to wine, and raised the dead.

David Hogan's ministry has truely transformed my life and how I approach the gospel and the world. And I'm so appreciative of that that I'd like to share it with others. Those that want it, take it, those that don't, leave it. Quite simple.

I would caution greatly that you don't call something the devil that may be a genuine work of the Spirit. Nobody wants to blaspheme the Spirit, and the way some people throw judgment around here, it could happen very easily. It's best to stick to the truth as you know it. Maybe you find it difficult to believe David's stories, if that's the case, state it that way, but we can't write them off as lies simply because they don't fit in our "the gospel works this way" box. Keep your hands clean brothers. It's better to let the man run away than it is to stab him to death and realize you have an innocent man's blood stained on your hands. That's something we must be careful of here. God is watching our hearts. I'm not saying you have to believe David, I don't care, and he doesn't either, and I'm sure God doesn't care as well. But be careful not to cross the line into enemy territory.

On a side note. This group here on Sermonindex is the most mature group I have run across. I really enjoy the heart here and it is refreshing to not have to deal in petty matters. I think what we are discussing here is genuine and honest and I believe we are all becoming edified in the process. So for that, I really appreciate Gregs work.

Paul

I
InTheLight

Aaron Ireland wrote:

When Alan prayed with Hogan and his ministers, heobserved that David simply poured out raw Scripture and his praying was centred on an appreciation for what God had done, and not "begging" for Him to do something (Note that these prayer meeting would usually go for over eight hours).

Thank you Aaron for your input here. This section of your post that I quoted above particularly interested me. I had just read something that spoke about this very matter of our prayer life. I have posted it below for our consideration...
...in the ways of this world a parent usually must die before a child receives his inheritance. But in the spiritual life Christ's death that brought us our inheritance took place two thousand years ago at Calvary. Our spiritual inheritance is NOW.

It is the revealing work of the Spirit to help us see this fact. Actually once we see, it altogether changes our prayer life. No longer is there any need of pleading with God to change undesirable circumstances or to grant us something we need. No, the Revealer must simply show us what has already been done-stored up for us. Thus our primary petition should be for revelation so as to open our eyes to see all that God has stored up for us in Christ.

Let me repeat, there is such a change when this revealing work of our Helper uncovers what God has already done. Suddenly our praying is not to shift or change some outward circumstance, but for a revelation of how God is already working. Yes, our prayer then turns to active waiting on Him for that insight.

-from [i]Life's Ultimate Privilege[/i] by DeVern Fromke

C
crsschk

Hi Paul,

Fair enough brother and hope you don't find this petty...

I really try to stay away from defending David Hogan. For one, it's not my place. Also, I don't really care to, it's not my fault nor is it my responsibility.

From the original posting here;

He has been a great encouragement to me and has really increased my passion for the Lord and His calling in my life. Not to mention the experiences he's had are pretty extraordinary.

His ministry (not all by him personally) is said to have somewhere around 350 people raised from the dead. Pretty impressive I think.


In that sense it is your responsibility, you did bring this forth and the saints here brought forth their challenges, questions and so forth. One man raised from the dead is enough to raise some eyebrows wouldn't you think? And with much of what others are bringing forth especially in this day are we to accept these things [i]Ipso facto[/i]? That would be neither healthy nor biblical brother. We have gone through rounds of similar discussion on accepting 'prophets' pro bono.

I realize that is a saturation point in these things and it can become like beating a dead horse.

How many of us has ever thought to ourselves, "Jesus may be frustrated with me because this person didn't get healed."? It's quite a paradigm shift isn't it?

Is what I'm saying accurate? Is it not scriptural?

Again, and again, I'm not trying to over emphasize signs and wonders, I am just up lifting them out of the dirt where the church has muddied and trampled over them.


While I would agree it is a paradigm shift belief wise and can see and appreciate where you are making a valid point there, I must wonder though about how 1 Cor 12:28-31 fit's in to all of this. I know there is some disputing about how things are now and by way of when the Lord was present with the disciples.

It might be better to detract this away from this thread, will start another and see what insight the Body here has collectively to sharpen each others understanding.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11832&post_id=92098&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=36#92098]A more excellent way ...[/url]

S
sermonindex

and to dear BillPro also,

I hope and pray you understand what I was trying to say, two things:

First, I could right now, reel off to you at least five ministries that I regard as worldly, idolatrous, fleshly and just basically apostate, and maybe one side adjunct "religion" of this most Holy Faith, but as the Lord is my witness,
what good would that do?

Secondly, what really impacted me was that visit to the islamicity discussion forum, what a nightmare that was, simply because it seemed to me that they had the same kind of religious tug and pull we have over here. It was like a harsh mirror. Them boys KILL each other over religion, Sunni will kill Shia in the blink of an eye and vice versa. It's sick, and most decidely NOT of God. We know this.

But on the same token, in the past, there were those who as believers in Christ, decided that the Holy Spirit was leading them when they burned heretics at the stake, and I just see this, the rhetoric on the forum , as the same sort of righteous immolation, albeit in a relatively harmless cyber "burning".

It's wrong, and you know it, you have one or two brothers that testify that David Hogan impacted their lifes in a positive Gospel affirming manner, why not exalt in that? and praise God.

Why not lift up those men in the faith who encourage and teach us? instead of focusing on what we don't like or regard as "wolves".

There were many ministers in China that opposed John Sung and the ministry that God entrusted with him. It was not the unbelievers that served as his most potent opposers, it was men of the faith. And I daresay that John Sung poured out his life as a drink offering to Jesus, and impacted the Chinese church. He was a great hero of the faith.

Who would do we love and respect as minsters of the Gospel of Grace?

Lets focus on that.

Lets focus on the Moravians at Hernhut, united in the Spirit. What a great group this was, sending out the first modern age missionaries.

Who do we love in the Faith?

Thats not "touchy-feely" "sweet" culture, that's the Heart of Jesus, as He outlined in what is my opinion one of the Highest and Holiest chapters in the Bible, John 17, the High Priestly prayer of Jesus, "that they may all be one".

I would have to say that Chapter John 17 is one of my most precious heart keepsakes, for in prayer we are treated to the Heart of Jesus.

Having say that, if one feels they must call out other men, or "wolves" as the term is used, go for it, But I'll tell you this, as the Spirit leads me, that is not the Heart of Jesus.

lovingly, your brother bartle

C
crsschk

Hi Bartle,

While acknowledging this, where did the idea come about that anyone was stating that this is a matter of 'wolves'? Is this a presumption?

Do you see the flip side of all this? That there can be just as much ill will and accusation when it really is only a matter of examination and concern. I think there was more expressed to attempting to straighten out all the misunderstanding of [i]intent[/i] than the allusion to false prophets, "wolves" and other things assumed here.

There is a tendency to read far too much into things here. We do indeed focus on a great deal of other matters.

First, I could right now, reel off to you at least five ministries that I regard as worldly, idolatrous, fleshly and just basically apostate, and maybe one side adjunct "religion" of this most Holy Faith, but as the Lord is my witness,what good would that do?

That is not the issue though. Take a look at the progression here. This was brought forward by someone else and with some rather demanding claims. Shall we just sweep them under the rug in the name of Christian unity? What are we to do with a Carlton Peterson, ignore him? Believe me, I [i]do[/i] fully understand, a great deal of time can be wasted in effort on controversial matters, but they are still matters that we cannot just turn a deaf ear to. I both empathize and recognize the situation, could but beg off of it but there are things going on in our day that are leading all kinds of people astray, to not address them is to be even more unloving as has been made mentioned. Brother, this is rather mild in all honesty, there has been much more heated, divisive and ugly things that just grieved me to tears over the hearts and venom that came forth, much as you described;

Secondly, what really impacted me was that visit to the islamicity discussion forum, what a nightmare that was, simply because it seemed to me that they had the same kind of religious tug and pull we have over here. It was like a harsh mirror. Them boys KILL each other over religion, Sunni will kill Shia in the blink of an eye and vice versa. It's sick, and most decidely NOT of God. We know this.

I wonder if it is noticed that you and others decrying the 'decrying' have taken into account your part in all this? It perpetuates it, much like I am doing now...

But to your reference again, this is [i]not[/i] the spirit of this forum, it easily could have lowered itself into that gutter and we have fought hard to not allow it, have removed divisive, ill-willed individuals, those with agendas and those with frankly just rude behavior.
Let me not forget the 'discernment' ministry minded that have come through with everything from conspiracy to extreme assumptions of apostasy all due to blowing things way out of proportion, it has been well said that even the discernment ministries need discernment.

Here is a great read for a distraction from all this, it will most certainly not warrant the amount of replies that it should and I say that with sadness not as a particular dig. OK, maybe it is, not at you personally but just at the way these things can go, how little give to answer some of the more demanding questions asked here, it unfortunately tends to bog down this way quite often, this strange fear about being honest that will somehow give off a wrong impression ... when it's the very honesty that leads to a greater impression ... In my opinion anyway.

All of us at times tend to jump to conclusions.

Here's the link by the way...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=11827&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Revival - Edwards and Wesley[/url]

S
sermonindex

I have no idea how to respond to your post, other than imploring you to re-read my post in which the seminal heart cry of Jesus is contained in John 17.

C
CJaKfOrEsT

C'mon everyone, group hug. We sometimes really have to get to the point that we realise that we're going around in circles and see let our prior words speak for themseves.

Paul,

May I suggest that you reread the whoe forum afresh, before you post anything else? It does seem that you are runing around in circles and beginning to contradict yourself. Don't forget that this fellowship is under a shepherd (ie, Greg), and it's his reponsability to protect the flock from wolves.

As one who has been in your shoes (and I agree that I was a wolf, and at times can still be, whether you object to the implication or not) I offer this advice. Retraction of comments can be humiliating, but sometimes it is necessary (and yes I have done so in the past).

I'll leave it up to you and your conscience to decide if and what to retract. I haven't read every post, but I have noticed the steam emanating from under your collar.

W
WorldView

A ten foot owl eh?

Well, normally I would find that very hard to believe and still do find it interresting, but since being here in the Philippines and becomming more aware of the works witchcraft, I don't see it as impossible.

Nearly everyone of the students and graduates in our Bible college has had one or more encounters with the demonic realm at some point in their lives. One of our students from Nigeria tells of how trained witches in her country have been known to transform into birds or some form of animal. Some of our Philippino sudents know of this form of witchcraft acknowledging that it can be done and is practiced here in the Philippines. I forgot what they called it.

One of our graduates and a good friend of mine used to be a witch doctor and he would tell me of the spells he used to cast that would really work. His teacher had a collection of knee caps from the bodies of certain dead people and could somehow use the knee cap to do super-human feats or things that he has no skill in such as martial arts.

One of our staff members and graduates here who recently married my missionary friend used to have a spirit companion (before she was saved) who would do whatever she wanted. This companion would appear to her in the form of a little girl. One day she decided to try it out and asked the little girl to do something, as a result someone was injured and she never used the little girl again and broke the power of that spirit off of her life.

She aslso has a dad who is a faith healer. He uses his witcraft to heal people. He also can control the weather. She told me a story of how one day she opened up one of her dad's book s of Latin words and read one that claimed it could pull an airplane out of the sky, she spoke it and the next day, she heard of a plane crash her in the Philippines. Though she is not sure that the crash was a result of reading the spell.

These stories are not comming from strangers but from people I know very well, students and graduates of our Bible college and some are ministers. I am not mentioning these stories to glorify the power of the devil (though it is powerless to the power of God within us) but to show why I think, though as odd as it sounds, a ten foot owl is not impossible.

In America witcraft isn't as common, and I can imagine how it is easy to be skeptical of these things, but it doesn't mean that they don't occur.

P
Paulf

Paul,

May I suggest that you reread the whoe forum afresh, before you post anything else? It does seem that you are runing around in circles and beginning to contradict yourself. Don't forget that this fellowship is under a shepherd (ie, Greg), and it's his reponsability to protect the flock from wolves.

As one who has been in your shoes (and I agree that I was a wolf, and at times can still be, whether you object to the implication or not) I offer this advice. Retraction of comments can be humiliating, but sometimes it is necessary (and yes I have done so in the past).

I'll leave it up to you and your conscience to decide if and what to retract. I haven't read every post, but I have noticed the steam emanating from under your collar.

There are a couple of Pauls in this thread. I'm assuming you're talking to me though...?

I'm certainly not too proud to retract or ask for forgiveness. But, as I'm sure you can guess...I don't see the errors. Feel free to point them out if you'd like.

Paul

C
CJaKfOrEsT


Paulf wrote:

I'm certainly not too proud to retract or ask for forgiveness. But, as I'm sure you can guess...I don't see the errors. Feel free to point them out if you'd like.

Sorry, you were the only Paul I saw. The issue I see isn't one of error, so much, as one of heart attitude. As I ssaid (though I mispelt :oops:), "reread the whole thread". I have found in the past, that when I have allowed myself to cool down a bit, and have reread my posts, I have been able to see where peoples' objections to my comments have been based.

I can see that you have a humble heart, I guess I can also see that you seem to be "quick to speak, and slow to listen" where the Apostle exhorted us to do the reverse. You're zeal to defend Bro Hogan is admirable, however I have noticed that Greg and others have brought wise cautionary observations of his ministry. I don't believe that there is need to point out the issues. If you are as humble as I believe that you are, your conscience will reveal them, and you will receive greater benefit from having our glorious Comforter's direct assistance in this.

No one is trying to say that God has ceased to do miracles, only that overemphasis on them is dangerous. Leonard Ravenhill often stated that "Miracle is not the answer." However, after his death his wife, Martha pointed out that everyone that he prayed for to be cured of cancer was healed. Compare this with Hogan's apparent boasting and you will see a striking contrast. Note also that Paul stated that he would rather "glory in his infirmities", choosing to recount someone elses revelation, rather than speak of his own. Compare this with Hogan's statements, that the "annointing on [b]my life[/b] is tremendous. Very valuable. And I don't mind helping out". You've got to admit, there is a certain note of "bravado" in this statement.

Again I say that, based on my personal observations, and those of my friend, David's shortcomings are more one's of naivety than deception. I also raise a level of concern, however I would set the 'threat level' at 'amber' rather than 'red'.

P
Paulf

You're zeal to defend Bro Hogan is admirable, however I have noticed that Greg and others have brought wise cautionary observations of his ministry.

I think I've made it a point not to defend David Hogan. Earlier in this thread I made the point to take him completely out of the equation.

I thought, reading your previous posts, that you were in favor of his ministry? Did I read that wrong? Or were you just passing on what a friend said? I'm kind've confused.


Compare this with Hogan's apparent boasting and you will see a striking contrast. Note also that Paul stated that he would rather "glory in his infirmities", choosing to recount someone elses revelation, rather than speak of his own. Compare this with Hogan's statements, that the "annointing on my life is tremendous. Very valuable. And I don't mind helping out". You've got to admit, there is a certain note of "bravado" in this statement.

Have you listened to that entire series of messages where that quote was taken from, or just the compilation that has that quote in it?

I've listened to many many many many hours of David Hogan. I may not know him personally (I have sat in on 2 messages in person) but I know his public persona and ministry. And I've made the decision to believe him. And since I have, my faith has been challenged and God is using him to bring forth the calling he has in my life.

One thing I would note and recommend that you do is listen to David's messages, a few of them at least, before you come to a judgement. Especially where he does boast in his weaknesses, talking about when people aren't raised from the dead, when his wife was sick on multiple occasions. Even when he had to take his daughter to a hospital. And when his best friends wife died and wasn't raised again. There is a timespan, I think it may have been in 2001 or 2002, where a string of his messages were about defeat and how to overcome. I'm not saying you have to listen to him, just explaining a little more if you haven't listened to much of his teachings.

If he hadn't made such an impact on my life, I wouldn't make a big deal about it. I just want to share it with others. Because the way I found him was through some obscure (sermonindex is far from obscure) message board and he was mentioned in passing, so I looked into it and I haven't been the same sense. Maybe it will be duplicated in another.

Not to sling verses around, (this isn't in response to anything you said CJaKfOrEsT) but I heard this verse today and I think it's relevant to this discussion.

John 10:37
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Pretty bold.

Let's be Christlike.

Paul

M
MrBillPro


crsschk wrote:
Hi Bartle,
There is a tendency to read far too much into things here.

Amen!!! Brother and it's not only here it seems to be everywhere.

W
WorldView

I am friends with another U.S. Mission team that is here in the Philippines. I think that it was several years back that they got the opportunity to miister with him in Mexico and were there when he raise a girl from the dead. They highly admire his ministry, having witnessed it and ministered with him in person, and I highly admire and respect their ministry.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


Paulf wrote:

Not to sling verses around, (this isn't in response to anything you said CJaKfOrEsT) but I heard this verse today and I think it's relevant to this discussion.

John 10:37
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Pretty bold.

Let's be Christlike.

What are the works of the Father, but mercifulness? Each miracle from the hand of God is merely an expression of His mercy to mankind. Miracles are not the be all and end all of mercy, but are a mere expression of it, just as Jesus' washing of the disciples feet was, and that much more profound in the eyes of the disciples.

I am stunned and staggered by what God has and is doing through David Hogan. Truly God is moving in His midst. However, we'd be wise to remember that the gifts of God are without repentance. The movement that I am a part of, was birth by one who regularly performed miracles (as opposed to much of the "fake healing" around today), but that did not stop him from falling into adultery and almost destroying the ministry that he birthed. For him, his mistake was a lack of balance between power and character.

He has since been restored to ministry, and has reunited with his wife. I attended one of his campaigns, and saw people healed. One of the things that amazed me, was a man who responded to a word of knowledge, that said he had damaged knees. He was prayed for, and fell to the ground. As he returned to his seat, I thought I heard him use a cuss word. The young man went out of the auditorium, and I slipped out to chat with him. After hearing him talk to his friend, I deduced that he was not even pretending to be a Christian.

I said to the man, "I get the impression that you're not a 'church-goer'?" He replied, "@$#% no! And he wasn't going to talk me into this Jesus stuff." I asked him what happened when he went up the fromt. He then jump up, and touched his knees to his shoulders whilst in mid-air saying, "Let me put it this way, there was no way that I could do that before I came." Somehow this guy was healed, and yet still rejected Christ. It didn't help that the preacher presented a "cheesy-gospel", repetatively saying, "Isn't Jesus wonderful?" and omitting any reference to "sin, righteous and judgement".

I raise this to point out how the "mighty" can fall. Regarding being in favour of Hogan's ministry, I merely have observed a degree of integrity in the man. I have also observed a lack of wisdom, at times in his messages. Christ and the Apostles preached the gospel, and signs and wonders followed. Hogan seems to preach signs and wonders, in the hope that salvations will follow. My call is for balance. As someone earlier noted, Scripture exhorts us to "Let God be true, and [b]every man[/b] a liar." I am an "everyman" and so is Hogan.

Another thing that Scripture exhorts is that we judge men of God by their fruit. I don't believe that we should compartmentise a man's ministry into timespans, but as an overall. For instance, my personal beginning was far less than perfect, however without enduring the earlier phases of my ministry, I would not be aware of many potential pitfalls. I probably would not have the compassion required to plead with false converts to repent, because I could have potentially thought myself to be greater than they. I would not be able to speak out against heresy, without the same kind of authority, because I would not bare the scars of being snared in similar nets.

I look at a man of God like Art Katz, and see one whose ministry can be traced from the origin to now, over more than 30 years. When he speaks of how God formed prudence in His life, you can hear what he was like before, and what he is like now. I don't know that this kind of transparency is present in Hogan's life. Perhaps it is. This kind of transparency leaves every part of their ministry uncensored and in it's shameful context, rather than wishing that it never happened.

Again I state that I would merely raise concerns (by concerns I mean, "things to be wary of" not "run for the hills!!!"). I don't reject him as a heretic, but at the same time, I tend to "drink" from streams that I [b]know[/b] are clean. From men whose character and integrity are well established. There are probably many out there that I am unaware of, but God can speak through whomsoever He chooses. He doesn't require that I've heard from every preacher under the sun (although at times I think I come pretty close;-)).

Again, my exhortation to you personally Paul, is that you reread the entire thread, considering your comments in the light of the responses. For instance, you began by thinking that I was in favour of Hogan, in spite of my raising minor concerns, and then you seemed to think that I am against (at least confused as to my stance) in spite of my stating that your "zeal to defend Bro Hogan" as "admirable". I assure you that I would not say the same thing, had you been defending the likes of Hinn or Howard-Browne. Obviously you had missed part of my posts, and it is possible that you have done likewise with others. I have neither been for, nor against Hogan, but have merely testified to the validity of some of his claims and raised concerns toward some of his statements. If he has truly repented of these statements, then he would be appreciative of someone using them as examples of things to be concerned about, not trying to excuse them away by saying that he's learned his lesson now.

You also say that you "made it a point not to defend David Hogan", however your first post has the statement:

I have created a blog that features audio snippets, or "quotables", from David Hogan's messages.

He has been a great encouragement to me and has really increased my passion for the Lord and His calling in my life. Not to mention the experiences he's had are pretty extraordinary.


...you then went on to answer every objection the Greg and others raised about Hogan's minstry. If this is not defence, then what is? Does a rose by any other name not smell as sweet?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Worldview...

A ten foot owl eh?

Well, normally I would find that very hard to believe and still do find it interresting, but since being here in the Philippines and becomming more aware of the works witchcraft, I don't see it as impossible.

Nearly everyone of the students and graduates in our Bible college has had one or more encounters with the demonic realm at some point in their lives. One of our students from Nigeria tells of how trained witches in her country have been known to transform into birds or some form of animal. Some of our Philippino sudents know of this form of witchcraft acknowledging that it can be done and is practiced here in the Philippines. I forgot what they called it.

...

These stories are not comming from strangers but from people I know very well, students and graduates of our Bible college and some are ministers. I am not mentioning these stories to glorify the power of the devil (though it is powerless to the power of God within us) but to show why I think, though as odd as it sounds, a ten foot owl is not impossible.

In America witcraft isn't as common, and I can imagine how it is easy to be skeptical of these things, but it doesn't mean that they don't occur.

I understand your acceptance of the possibility that such an event might have occured. Personally, I cannot believe such claims. First of all, such claims are mingled with "experiences" that I do not believe (such as an infant being demon-posessed, etc...). And more imporantly, I do not believe that we should place our faith in such experiences or "supernatural tales" to begin with. The primary problem with David Hogan's statements in our meetings were not the nature of his claims. Rather, it was the fact that he did not permit any sort of questioning or contemplation about his messages or "experiences."

Instead, David Hogan strutted about on stage constantly declaring his own authority. He chided anyone who doubted his stories or "authority." Contrast with the Bereans, who were considered to be more "noble" for doing the same with the Apostle Paul.

In my opinion, the important point of this whole matter is as follows: Should Christians blindly accept what they are told on the basis of a man's supposed Biblical "authority?"

I believe that the "umbrella authority" message has been preached far too often in many of our Churches. I personally believe that, as believers, we need to truly test everything that is preached in our pulpits. No man, woman or child is spiritually "safe" because they simply adhered to the "unquestionable authority" of a man. Why would a true man of God be upset at this sort of contemplation? What is the harm in asking believers of Christ to study and pray about every word or message you share? Sadly, there seems to be far too many believers that are willing to believe anything -- as long as a preacher can "verify his authority" by claims of supernatural activity.

There are several men and women of God that I listen to more than others. I have been deeply blessed by the messages and ministries or men like Leonard Ravenhill, David Wilkerson, A. W. Tozer, Corrie ten Boom, etc... But I also realize that each of these men and women were, of course, merely human. They were prone to all of the faults that humanity has incurred upon us. And I do not admire them because of their "tales of the supernatural" -- although each of them have claimed to have experienced such things in their testimonies. But the stories that they have told have not been "extra-Biblical." That is to say that the underlying message of their experiences can be found in the Word of God. They did not share stories of demon posessed infants, 10 foot demon-possessed "hoot owls" (s Mr. Hogan called them) warning them of impending disaster, or invisible demons that physically chased him (while opening and closing the gates during the chase) all the while Mr. Hogan ran proclaiming, "The Devil is coming! The Devil is coming!"

In today's Church, you can find famous (or infamous) preachers that claim wild testimonies about the supernatural. There are people that claimed to have visited Heaven and Hell (even though most of their stories contradict one another). There are people claiming to have raised people (and even a chicken) from the dead. There are preachers that claim to have cast out demons from dogs, cats, rats, walls, toys, shoes, toilets, infants and children, and even honest to goodness Christians. Several years ago, a well-known "healing evangelist" (A. A. Allen) began to place "demons" into bottles. There are a few preachers that claim werewolves, vampires and bigfoot exist -- and are simply the result of witches and warlocks morphing into such creatures by "the power of darkness." But should we simply believe such tales without questioning their validity simply because such a man chides anyone that does so as having a "[i]lack of faith[/i]" or an "[i]unbelieving spirit[/i]?"

On the contrary, I am inclined to listen to men and women of God (such as Ravenhill, Wilkerson and Corrie ten Boom) because their messages have pointed me to the Gospel. They do not use such stories to validate their messages. And they do not boast in their experiences. Rather, their experiences have served to humble them in some way.

I believe that the Lord desires believers that are not easily duped. It is okay (and perhaps admirable) to be skeptical. We should be open to possibilities -- but closed to blindly placing our faith in such tales based upon the reputations or claims of "authority" of any men.

:-)

W
WorldView


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I understand your acceptance of the possibility that such an event might have occured. Personally, I cannot believe such claims. First of all, such claims are mingled with "experiences" that I do not believe (such as an infant being demon-posessed, etc...). And more imporantly, I do not believe that we should place our faith in such experiences or "supernatural tales" to begin with. The primary problem with David Hogan's statements in our meetings were not the nature of his claims. Rather, it was the fact that he did not permit any sort of questioning or contemplation about his messages or "experiences."

Sorry I'm only able to read a portion of your post for now since it is 12 midnight here in the Philippines and I am headed for bed.

No we should not get caught all up in the supernatual to the extent that our focus is taken off of God.

Anyways, no matter where you or I stand on David Hogan, I wont let that affect my respect and love for you as a fellow brother in Christ. So have a blessed night.

Maybe it is time to let this topic alone.

Keith

P
Paulf

CJaKfOrEsT,

As with all message board discussions there is a lot lost in articulation, lack of tone, attention span, etc.

I went back and skimmed (I don't have time to read it all) what I wrote and paid attention to how I responded to these brothers. Naturally, there are things I could've done better, places where I misunderstood, was misunderstood myself...all those things.

So please allow me to sum up my foundational stance throughout the discussion:

Although I put forth the claims of David Hogan's ministry, I'm not going to defend them. Simply because the only people that truely know what happened are those that were involved at any given incident. It's foolish for me to argue something that I can't know for sure. So, I will not get into arguments as to whether there was an owl or not...because I will never know for sure. I mentioned before, you either simply believe it or don't. And it doesn't matter to me at all which side you stand on. It also doesn't affect the truth, whatever it may be. But as I won't defend the claim, I would hope people wouldn't attack it (I'm using the owl story just as an example) because just as I don't know, they don't.

What I will do is share the opportunity for others to make their own decisions. If you've never heard the story, listen to it yourself before you make a judgement and predetermine your belief (I have it recorded and will be putting it on my site soon. The whole story is actually one of my favorites. It teaches a lot about the power of God despite what the enemy throws at you.). If you haven't listened to many of his teachings then I would suggest you keep the skepticism to yourself, because it may hurt others and we don't want to accidently attribute a work of God to Satan...that's a big mistake.

So, I won't defend specific claims, because I can't. I will defend a broadstroke judgement when it is made without proper context.

As to my demeanor towards Greg and others about the scriptural concerns. I stand by my statements. I got/get the impression that the power works of God are casually swept away under the rug because of past abuses. I think the body needs to redeem the works of God instead of being afraid of them. That was my intent in the conext of those discussions. To be conformed into the image of all that Christ is and preach the gospel in it's completeness, in it's entirety, just as He did. He did it [b]with[/b](though not only) the witness of the power of God.

Hope that may clear up some things. Or at least summarize what I've been trying to say.

Be blessed,
Paul

C
crsschk

I got/get the impression that the power works of God are casually swept away under the rug because of past abuses.

Yes and no, what seems to get swept under the rug is addressing the validity of them and that without all kinds of presumptions going in as to intent and motive. Yes, precisely because of past abuses and what is taken as some new way of thinking that anyone who speaks in Gods Name is therefore "authorative" and above question, reproach or even rebuke, that is not a 'critical spirit' it's a Berean one. Could wish I would have mentioned something other than the owl bit, there is far more greater problems that have been brought forth and those get swept under the rug because you have been blessed? I do agree with you though that this does create another problem and one that is just as well difficult to ignore... what of them? These things that can and do still happen. We are not dis-believing. We have had some past discussions revolving around this even with whatever denominational pull (leaning) one has ...

My mother just went through two major operations in the last couple of weeks, that were preformed in the course of 5 days apart. One, a partial hip replacement, the second, brain surgery to remove a tumor. I know this doesn't have the dramatic's of being raised from the dead or an instnat healing attached to it and I am not trying to cause a discourse by way of comparison... Brother, this is a 'miracle' and an answer to prayer, prayers of many here. What about un-answered prayer? Started to bring this up elsewhere after reading some items from E.M. Bounds. Very little attention to this matter, why have we not questioned the [i]why not[/i] aspect of this? So I do grasp your broader point, just in this context, with the controversial nature of what you brought forth to expect an automatic acceptance would put us in a position of not being discerning whatsoever.

There is some really good response's here brethren and still believe a great deal can be learned from all this and yes, it may take some time to read through them all and contemplate what our own brothers and sisters are together exhorting us to. It takes some time and effort but this is not a battlefield, it's fellowship.

Can I again recommend a tremndous message (2 actually) on authority? Just listened to them again driving out to see my Mom this weekend. I think it really applies to so much of this discussion;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6072&forum=35#45127]What isn't "Speaking against God's annointed"[/url]

The links are a couple of replies down.

I
ICCCMDave

Howdy from Phoenix,

A while back I wrote about my experience with David Hogan. I forget which page it was on.

For 30 years I was a hard core crystal meth head. I recently came to my Lord, Christ Jesus. It was a long hard battle. After i had been saved for about two years I would feel that there was something in me that wasn't suspose to be there.

A friend of mine said Hogan is in town and we went.

To make a long story short at the service Hogan walked up to me and said Fire of God tapped me on the forehead and nothing. not a thing for about two minutes than pop hit by the Holy Ghost.

Next thing I was on the floor and I couldn't move. I went some where in the spirit. I don't know where. Then this dark grey and black thing hovered over me and I thought oh, no, I can't move then all by itself my mouth opened and the sound of a soda opening and the next thing I knew it was gone.

Then the most incredable thing happened faces many of them all smiling at me maybe 50 of them and all beautiful just smiling. So awesome almost. Well, a feeling of well being just came over me.

I shook for over two hours and since that day my life has been totally changed. The Holy Ghost comes on me so heavy I can't explain and my understanding of the Word has totally changed.

When I pray for people and lay hands on them the power of the Lord comes on me. Everyone says wow I could really feel the Lord working.

Say and think what you want about Hogan but this is my experience and he changed my life.

Richard David Hanthorn


P
Paulf

That was an awesome testimony Richard!!! If you want you can email me at paulferree@gmail.com and I'd love to put it on my site.

Be blessed,
Paul

M
MrBillPro

Hey Dave thank God you turned you life around I "had" a brother that did the same he was saved at a Jimmy Swaggart revival and he praised Jimmy Swaggart until the day he died you sure did not want to say anything bad about Jimmy around him he would give you his whole testimony, the damage was already set in to far in his liver after he made his decision to accept Jesus Christ but he did live for two years, and he contributes them two extra years to having Jimmy Swaggart laying hands on him thru Jesus Christ I totally believe this to be true also. I don't really think anyone here is saying David Hogan is a fake, number one is because when the Holy Spirit enters your body the word says you have just as much healing power as Jesus did, so if a drunk under a bridge had been saved many years ago but has fallen down, I personally believe that he still can lay hands on you and heal you. I think what most here feel as I do that one bad apple so to say can make it bad for all, and I think there is a few bad apples out there "will not name names" that have gone overboard with their so called healing's, If God has plans to not heal you for some reason, any minister on the face of this earth can lay hands on you and you will not be healed, there is none righteous. I know in our hearts as Christians we all want to believe in the healing powers of the Holy Spirit, I know I do but when you see some of this stuff on the tube it can make your faith wonder, God Bless you Dave and I am so glad God spoke to you before your addiction did so much damage it was irreversible as with my brother, but I do believe Jimmy Swaggart thru Jesus Christ laying his hands and Praying for my Brother gave him a couple extra years of life and man was he on fire for the Lord for those two years he was a wonderful Brother and after 5 years I still miss him and I still cry.

C
crsschk

Saints, Brethren, friends ... enemies

Had an earlier compulsion to state that I would present some observations and detach from all this, beg off and be done with it ... But found even that had elements of pride and dishonesty. So do comb through and spit out the bones...

One of the most challenging scriptures as it applies to so much that can come through this place of fellowship, and strikingly applicable to this discussion in particular is;

[i]Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.[/i] Mar 9:38-40

It is a challenge whether it be a Benny Hinn or Mr. Hogan as he has been brought under this examination. Just as unfortunate though is to hold this up [i]only[/i] as the test of all things when we have likewise been exhorted to test, to admire a Berean nobility which I believe is far more a test of honesty than that of assumed authority.

But to linger around these verses for a moment longer. As was made mentioned by the brother who found himself delivered out of his particular bondage, one similar to even this poor fool's, though through a different method, one of sheer bodily and spiritual suffering, extreme warfare, a long 'bloody' drawn out conflict... The point, if there is one to hang a hat on, is, which one is 'better'? Or is it really neither and besides the point? If I had my say so in it at the time I could have and in fact often enough did plead for a truce, for an end out of it. Far to ignorant at the time to recognize what was being done and might I interject, is this usually not the way of the Lord? Taking us in, through and out the other side of things that we only grasp at with a backward look and recollection? With the blessing of hindsight now, it is almost too easy to state, but will do so emphatically that I am indeed glad for the manner the Lord chose, because not only did He do the choosing but did a thorough cleansing of those matters, I have this 'experience' to look back on with not only wonder and awe but also a reverential fear that guards all those particular matters that they have become that which does not enter my thoughts any longer. BUT! Have likewise begun to grasp the essence of [i]"Take heed ...lest you fall"[/i], we must recognize that though we may be both saved and are being sanctified we are yet still walking time-bombs by trusting in and of ourselves. Still, that previous garden has a flaming sword guarding it, I do not go back to gaze in wonder at it's beauty and brilliance, it's not there to dazzle it, it's there to shred and destroy, I keep my distance. Well, that is all perhaps some clever word-smithing and getting off the trail here... But before that, Praise God that you were delivered brother!

Returning back by way of example and perhaps comparison. Somewhat similarly and hard to say this ... But for a time I followed and was caught up in much of what is known as the name-it-and-claim-it, WOF camp and was particularly fond of Benny Hinn. Struck by what I then perceived as 'his' power to heal and launch people on to their posteriors with a wave of his hand, the 'healings', all of it. Gave no small amount of dollars to his ministry, followed him around a bit, felt proud to be a 'special member' or whatever language it was couched in. To say that [i]all[/i] of it was a sham and a mockery would be dishonest and largely the point I am hoping to force out here. Ironically, one of the 'private, members only' conferences I attended over three days was primarily centered around end times events and even to look back on it now with a little bit more knowledge and might I stress [i]little[/i], for all that I find still quite a reach even from the better scholars about how things ultimately come to pass, he did an admirable job of exegesis of Daniel and Revelation up to the point of application as to what it meant [i]then[/i] and even now presently. During that conference there was a mix of extreme generosity and to look back on it ... It's grievous to recall a poor soul being manipulated by a call for money (because "the Holy Spirit is saying ...") and coming forward giving up his nice watch which seemed to be all that he had, it struck similar to the widows mite. Others catching on to his generosity came up and offered theirs to replace his which he denied humbly ... All the while Mr. Hinn seemed to be enjoying all of it, Praising God for it ... That is a dig in all honesty because from there it turned into the next up on the agenda; "The Holy Spirit is saying that there is ____ (I forget how many) that are to give $5,000 to this ministry" etc. etc. And I watched a man in front of me write out a check...
At the time I was having mixed feelings, my wife and I were attempting to do the quick prayer thing, "How much should [i]we[/i] give?" Not really discerning that we were being manipulated... And so on it went, on to the "Holy Spirit is here!" sudden announcement, that sent a mini-panic throughout the gathering, an atmosphere of confusion until they decided to have us all line up against the walls, [i]facing the wall[/i] for awhile and then the proverbial passing in front of the leaders for the 'slain in the spirit' phenomenon. Yes, I am speaking with some disdain for it all and I apologize to the brother if this finds offense to your experience, can only speak of my own.

The short and easiest answer to all this is, I don't know.
I don't know why despite many things or even in spite of all these things the Lord does what He does. I am finding more and more that to be truly honest is to allow that pool to expand, it is a pool of thought held in abeyance and the challenge is very much to the scriptures above.

Considering again that this is still not everything though. There is still [i]all[/i] of scripture to consider, the whole counsel of God, I do think we fall off the edge far too easily not to take it all collectively, making or coming to conclusions when they do boil out into the fact that we are dishonest, hiding and sweeping questions and cautions under the rug, dividing off into a camp mentality, defending the indefensible, more concerned with saving our thin skin than a concern for, even an a true appealing to [i]What indeed sayeth the Lord[/i].
I am deeply troubled by both the level of dishonesty as to the overlooked matters of what many a ministry while perhaps doing a great deal of good are in fact overlooking and side stepping the harm. This is far more than a matter of opinion, there are real life consequences being shouted down to lend support to mere men because of their ministry, because of their assumed 'anointing', a whole host of things. Another example and please do miss the point of 'not naming names' it's a silly concept and far from the issue... Witness Lee and his followers have a lot to explain in this way. Mr. Lee is dead and assuredly with the Lord. It is [i]not[/i] the point. The point is a great deal of harm and surely misunderstanding has been wrought by way of teaching or interpretation of that teaching, whatever the case, that no one seemingly cares that this is evident, that there are those that need to be restored or even any admittance of culpability in the matter. I think we are often proving ourselves to be liars by holding assumptions as facts and facts as assumptions. And just as cold hearted as the loud voices stating that to face these things is to be without compassion, love or true concern. We are afraid of being both ashamed, rebuked, exhorted and corrected. Without a doubt there is often too much venom yet still within us, too much compulsion, reaction and little contemplation and prayer. Pride. Bitterness, and even compromise. We think too much of ourselves, our opinions and follow mere men to our own hurt. We have largely stopped thinking [i]period[/i]. Trading 'Kumbya' and "Can't we all just get along" for real, hard, difficult, exposure of who we are yet still. We don't know a great deal, must we pretend that we do?

Again;

[i]Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?[/i] 1Co 3:5

Who is Mr. Hogan, Mike Balog, A.W. Tozer or Paulf? To see my own name makes me want to go hide somewhere, it's not false humility, I often could but wish to hide from myself, am learning that it is this man who is the cause of all the trouble ... We are but utilities to put it bluntly and seemingly coldly in Gods hands. Prime products and by-products as Mr. Reidhead adequately put it. Why is it that our stinking opinion is given so much weight when it is found lacking? And the lack that could be made abundant to the help of many is sidelined and ignored?

I do believe we are often missing entirely the whole picture. We can say, scream, preach and exhort until our voices crack and our fingers grow tired from typing, [i]"All to the glory of God[/i]" but do we really mean it? Honestly? Or is it yet still the tag on after the fact, the [i]In Jesus Name[/i] after our prayers?

There is NO authority other than God Himself and that which He decides to give forth. If you seek after it, it will evade you for you know not what you ask. If you have it and 'know' it, wield it, you are deluded. The only ones that do are humbled by it, there is no other way. I am somewhat convinced that Elijah may well have ran from Jezebel for entirely different reasons and that he took little delight in slaying all the prophets of Baal. There is a strong suspicion that he was devastated by what God did [i]through[/i] him, putting him into a place of weakness and bringing forth the cry that came from his soul;

[i] O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers.[/i]

But what do I know.

There is a great deal more that I had wished to express here, seemingly lost now. Perhaps it will come back again later. Some random barnacles ...

I think our problem with judging is in pre-judging.
I believe [i]admittance[/i] may well be the heart of a "repentant life style".

I believe we need to humble ourselves more than we know. That we need revival for ourselves more than and before we are more true and real, honest enough, to convince anybody of the truths we hold to.

I believe I am wrong on much. I know it. Feel it. Admit it.

I am neither overly angry as may be taken from all this nor despairing, very even to be honest.

I have misspoke, misunderstood and mis-applied.

I ask for forgiveness where I have and plead that we might pray always, often, constantly.

The Lord is everything.

W
WorldView


crsschk wrote:
[i]Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.[/i] Mar 9:38-40

That sounds like good closure to me.

Keith

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