A Critical Spirit

Mattie wrote:
It's noticeable that there's a good number who post threads on this website who are very loose in calling people out, rebuking ministries, and putting a judgment call on men or women who may very well have a calling of God on their life. Often the response to this kind of statement is that we are called to "test the spirits" and to "contend for the faith" as well as pointing to Scriptures where Jesus came against the Pharisees or where Paul named specific people in the epistles whose message spread like cancer. I agree that we are to discern, to rightly divide, to come against all hypocrisy and phoniness in the house of God.

But I also believe that we can be just as guilty. As a people who stand for truth, we just may have the spirit of a Pharisee. Pharisees are the ones who notice a fly in the ointment and bring an immediate condemnation on the person. They put people on such high standards as though they themselves have never made a radical statement or done anything wrong themselves. We have to be very careful in our judging. While we are called to test spirits and to judge ministries carefully, the spirit by which WE do it is just as important.

I heard a man say once "Jesus came against the Pharisees, but also took nails for them." There is a love that has to back up our tongue otherwise we are just as guilty as the one we are coming against.

Let us be careful lest we also fall.

God forbid that we take your words of "caution" as a reason NOT to come against that which some of us see as a growing apostasy.
How about letting God do the judging of our spirits since that is where things do get real personal, i.e., between God and myself, a relationship you can't judge. Ponder that.

If you believe what I just wrote was not in love, you are wrong.

Orm

Mattie wrote:
Omly, You said I'm judging you as though I was talking directly about you, yet I'm talking about a type of people. For you to respond that way must mean something.

Sure it means something. Why would you suggest it otherwise? If it is not referring to someone as myself then what type of people do you refer and HOW would you judge in the matter --- unless you don't agree with what is being stated by them? In other words you are sympathetic to the broad liberal thought that says, "you're okay, I'm okay, everyones ok --- and it will get sorted out in the end".

Orm

Mattie wrote:
Ormly, I can't judge YOUR heart but I can judge what the Word judges. I've picked up in certain statements that people have made in regards to coming against ministries that lack any compassion. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If all the person is doing is coming against, coming against, coming against - that speaks alot about the person. There is a big difference between coming against ministries yet doing it with the broken heart of God, and another thing to come against ministries because of a desire to seem spiritual and the "prophet of the hour". Jeremiah had alot to say about the idolatry in the house of Israel but he also had much to say about the new covenant. Some ministries well known throughout the states dedicate their entire ministry to coming against others. Jesus didn't live that way. That wasn't his drive and his focus. You understand what I'm saying?

Sure I do. But I also understand your reasoning can be taken to the extreme opposite where, as a result, nothing gets exposed, rooted out or ---defended. Nothing as in "no thing". Consequently, life goes on as usual and usually downward, away from God. So I would say listen and bring correction if what you hear or read is wrong, "wrong" being the criteria. Judging hearts is the business of God.

[i]Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.[/i] 1 John 4:1 (NASB-U)

I'm only reading your words as you are reading others/mine. Knowing our hearts should be a given by all who understand that God will judge them all. We can't really know ours as He knows them. Therefore....recognizing the nature/origin of our sensibilities is what we must be honest about if we have to deal/address it when communcating with others.
It should be understood that "abiding in the Vine" includes this also as something Jesus intended for us to grasp, which is what I believe you are trying to get at. The Holy Spirit can be a tremendous help in this....if we don't quench Him.

How'm I doing?:-)

Orm

Hi Mattie,

In using Jeremiah as an example, this comes to mind:

1:10
See, I have this day set thee [b]over[/b] the nations and over the kingdoms, [b]to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down[/b], to build, and to plant.

Four negative verbs - or are they positive progress from God's point of view?

Is that why He commanded Jeremiah to be and declare thus?

Then, once the ground is cleared, a little planting and building can begin.

I agree with your point about the mouth giving away the state of heart, but there is a world of difference between the word of God as a destroyer (as it will be when Jesus speaks to those who have not believed in Him), and the world of idolatry which comes forth from the un-critical heart of a self.

I've heard it said that a mediumistic spirit speaks words which have an undermining effect. I would add that a medium is in fellowship with death, not life. Therefore, the effect of words can be discerned by both the person to whom they are directed, and those observing that person.

The word of God, sharper than a two-edged sword, [i]justifiably[/i] 'critical' as it might sound, may rather be a [i]convicting[/i] word - [b]of truth[/b] - which if responded to by a person getting right with God (or re-aligning a ministry with His will and standard - righteousness and love - ), may become a [u][b]life[/b]-giving[/u] word in the ears of the hearer, no matter how harsh it is outwardly perceived.

I would add that there is no real need for a person to [i]weep[/i] for those to whom they speak with a genuine rebuke from God, as long as their heart is right with Him and they are being obedient to His direction; that is, they are doing the Father's will, and walking in love (as you said) ....

This is a challenging combination of attitudes, but one which all of us must strive to embrace, I believe.

What d'you think?

Mattie wrote:
The Word must be rightly divided. I enjoy discussions like these because the body of Christ is able to open up passages and bring context with context. The key issue is remembering the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation testify of Jesus Christ. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Christ is all in all, and is the standard, the example, the perfect One that we all look to.

One thing to remember, He did nothing without the Father. He didn't even speak without the Father's approval. Jesus didn't publicly preach till He was 30 years old. John the Baptist didn't preach till He was 30. Ezekiel and other prophets. These men of God went through God's dealings, wilderness dealings, and there was a preparation of that vessel in order to bring forth the Word they preached.

The real thing I'm addressing is are we fit vessels that have been dealt with by the hand of God, pure, sanctified, and filled with His flame to bring forth such a message we may post? Has that Word we're preaching become flesh in us? Yes Jeremiah was to uproot and to tear down, but Jeremiah bore that very word. The word was a fire shut up in his bones. In his human weakness he even became weary, and wanted to give in because of such a word to speak. Look at Ezekiel who had to lie in dung for a long period of time. Look at Hosea who had to marry a prostitute that would then leave him. God put these men through difficult dealings before they were to preach that word. He wanted it to be life and reality to them.

Mattie, you are making assumption that NO ONE on this forum is how they must be as you state they must be. That's poor or your part.

Orm

2 Tim. 2:15 (KJV)
[i]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.[/i]

If we study to show ourselves approved will we not then be able to make judgments concerning error? If you study to show your approved don't judge the speaker. Judge what he speaks and what he does. However, with these forums speaking is all you have to work with.

Orm

"Now as Oswald Chambers says,...."

Glad to read you are into Chambers, Compton. Do you have his complete works?

He is my favorite author. I credit him for helping me see Jesus.

:-Drm

crsschk wrote:
Good points Olan ...

How many would misjudge the apostle Paul if they heard him say, "Hymenaeus and Philetus have gone astray from the truth" (2 Timothy 2:17-18) or, "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh" (1 Corinthians 5:5)?

Or what about John (the apostle who wrote of the love of God) who said, "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds" (2 John 10-11)?

Bad Point and totally irrelevant. I was going to address this earlier and thought better of it.

Paul WAS a man of God. His was un-impeachable; without dissimilation. If anyone can share TRUE findings to the contrary we might have a case against Paul. Therefore, anyone who left Paul left because of their own demand to have their "felt needs" met that Paul refused to accomodate. In other words they were offended by the absolutes Paul preached. Judas did the same with Jesus unless you really believe Judas didn't understand Jesus?

Can we really compare any of who we desire to protect, using scripture to do so, with Paul or Jesus? We have an obligation to question and, if necessary, rebuke but only if we have the mind of God in the matter. Thats a responsibility I'm quite sure not many will pay THE price for....very sad.

Orm

Mattie queried...

I am curious if all these people have been through the fires with God and have come out with the authority to speak such a word that goes public to other hearers and viewers.

Sometimes there are 60 people reading this site, but usually less than 12 posting at any one time. Of those of us who post regularly and have done over a long period (many months - some from when SI was very new indeed), yes, if you look back, and look out for the snippets of personal testimony, you'll find that those who are the most confident of their ground who [i]do[/i] speak, are only a proportion of those who [i]could[/i] speak if they felt called to do so publicly.

It might be interesting to discuss suitable definitions of 'fires' for the western world, as they are not 'fires' like those faced who were burned at the stake in the 16th century, or who died at the hands of various inquisitions before and since. However, they are the fires which spring up when one abandons lies, hypocrisy and deception of all sorts - both cultural and religious - and stands, first within one's own heart, many times apparently completely alone - for righteousness and its ingraining into all one's living. Popularity need not be one's god, then, but, there are many other little costs, too.

I believe God would have us become strong in the areas where we were the most weak prior to our salvation, and that's why there can be such an array of emphases in the personal stances one finds in the Church.

For myself, I am striving to attain to the calmness Jesus brought to His pronouncements against sin, and I'm trying to work out what should be overlooked / ignored and overwhelmed by love towards the individual sinner, and what should be marked out for definite public comment and a greater distancing of the Christian [i]because[/i] of the noted sin.

It's easy enough to keep a distance from a sinning Christian, but a sinning non-Christian is a different kettle of fish, and it gets even more complicated if they are claiming to be Christian at all. If they are not a Christian and yet claim to be a church leader, there are many more issues which are in a completely [i]different[/i] ball park for the believing member.

Certainly, the Lord had plenty to say to the church leaders He addressed in Rev 2 and 3, and it seems clear there is an expectation from on High of those in eldership, who have a duty to guide and guard the flock, while resisting those whose claims to membership is not accompanied by a compatible testimony. How the principle is altered when it is the flock who take note of a non-Christian leader (not merely a Christian leader who has fallen into sin), is vital for today's Christains to address meaninfully, both for their walk with God, and for the sake of others (as has been mentioned) who may be led astray. Remember, the Almighty knows who are false shepherds [u]all[/u] the time, and He is [i][b]for[/b][/i] the people - His people - [u]all[/u] the time.

In this I find that which speaks to my mind of the sorrow he himself must have felt in administering discipline to his beloved children in the faith, of how tenderly he must have held them in his heart and felt their pains and troubles as his own.

What about it?

I find it difficult to believe that a man could find it easy to wound those for whom he is ready to give up his own life.

Paul was concerned for his children in the Lord; those he shepherded. Thats not the case here. We're contending with those who speak as shepherd's; shepherd's with an uncertain voice.

[i]For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock[/i]. Acts 20:29 (KJV)

Why can't that be understood?

Orm

mamaluk wrote:
All the exhortations to love, and to carry a noncritical spirit, and the concern with human "feelings" are so much of our 'sweet' culture. . Are we going to hurt someone's feelings if we say this or that. Are we being critical if we speak out against this or that. All this is subjective. The objective should always be God's glory. How did our Lord 'feel' hanging on the Cross? (With all reverence)

Christians are to proclaim the Word, period. GOD will or will not deal with all the rest. The only 'feelings' we must consider would be Christ's. ( again, without irreverence ) The Word is a 2-edged sword, IT loves and IT hurts, but best of all, IT saves. There is no need to judge each other's spirit. One simply cannot encourage another not to be critical without being him/herself critical simultaneously.

The Word of God, not only saves souls, IT saves believers from deception and all sorts of perils in life brought on by falsehood. To proclaim the Word is not only a Christian's duty but a privilege, in Christ and in the Holy Spirit.

The sweetest words from man's mouth ( especially with distorted Scriptures) can be the most lethal poison to another's soul.
The gentlest utterance of "godly things" can be the most violent assault to God's Word.
The most "loving" gestures can come with subtlest hate for Christ.

My point being, what does it matter, human spirit or human love, God's WORD will and shall dominates over all else.

There's no need to judge by human feelings and spirits, judge by the fruit of these ministries,do they produce holiness, reverence, sacrificial love, elements essential to love, joy, peace or simply lust, craze, and chaos.

sigh..gently, uncritically, and lovingly
In His grace

That was from the Throne, to be sure!

Orm

not sparing the flock

The most useful thing any Christian can do for him or herself, is practise [i]knowing[/i] the Voice of THE Shepherd of their souls, and following hard after, regardless of what anyone they know, is doing.... Save yourselves from this untoward (God) generation, said Peter.

dorcas wrote:

not sparing the flock

This is far more true than Christians would care to believe.

The most useful thing any Christian can do for him or herself, is practise [i]knowing[/i] the Voice of THE Shepherd of their souls, and following hard after, regardless of what anyone they know, is doing.... Save yourselves from this untoward (God) generation, said Peter.

Not to be nit-picky but we are to listen to the voice of the Spirit.....not the shepherd of our souls. Big difference since most of us have yet to purify them that we can make those distinctions. (1 Peter 1.22)

Orm

Ormly said to dorcas:

Not to be nit-picky but we are to listen to the voice of the Spirit.....not the shepherd of our souls. Big difference since most of us have yet to purify them that we can make those distinctions. (1 Peter 1.22)

(NKJV) 1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

Greetings Ormly,

I'd be grateful for the scripture references to 'the voice of the Spirit', please.

In my understanding, we hear the Spirit cry 'Abba', but walking in the Spirit and living in the Spirit are different from knowing the voice of the Shepherd.

Peter also said (1:2:25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but [u]are now returned[/u] unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

So we really [b]should[/b] know His voice, is my point, really.

My original basis for exhorting us to know the voice of the Shepherd comes from John 10. When I heard this preached, it was one of the most transformingly practical messages ever to reach my ears. Jesus is telling us a truth.

How can you resist it (except on your own behalf), or counsel against believing it... if that's what your comment above really means?

"Big difference since most of us have yet to purify them that we can make those distinctions."

I would not make a linear progression out of this, but rather exhort us all to do our best to listen and obey at all times, especially when we feel confused, to wait longer and allow the Lord to dismantle our barriers - our deafness, if you will.

(KJV) John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But [b]he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep[/b].

3 [b]To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out[/b].

4 [b]And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: [u]for they know his voice[/u].

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers[/b].

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

Brother Ormly, I hope there is not a division between us for my sayings above. By all means exhort me to know the voice of the Spirit as well (I believe I do), and exhort me to purify my soul through unfeigned love of the brethren, but, please don't ask me to choose between one or another of these exhortations, or to take it upon yourself to prescribe the order in which I should work on them in my relationship with the Lord, unless you are speaking from specific revelation for me. Are you? If so, please PM me with the details. I am always open to correction. Really, I am. 8-)

OverSeer wrote:
ormly wrote

Bad Point and totally irrelevant

Paul WAS a man of God. His was un-impeachable; without dissimilation. If anyone can share TRUE findings to the contrary we might have a case against Paul.

Who was making a case against Paul? The question is:if you had been there with Paul without his having been vindicated by Scripture and by history, would you have considered him "critical" when he made statements that would seem to many in our day as "un-Christian"? And that is the point of this thread!

That is also the point of Second John and Third John. In Second John there was too much "acceptance" and deceivers were being allowed into the fellowship. In Third John there was too much "criticism" and true apostles were being banned from the fellowship.

In other words they were offended by the absolutes Paul preached.

You mean like: "Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, and said, 'O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord'" (Acts 13:9-10)? Or, "Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you" (Acts 13:40-41)?

My point exactly - they were offended by the absolutes Paul preached - and then would have accused him of not having the mind of God in the matter...too critical and unloving...regarded as a deceiver and yet true (2 Corinthians 6:8)...very sad.

Grace and peace
Olan

Your submitted text:

Acts 13:8-11 (NASB-U)
[i]But Elymas the magician (for so his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. [9] But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, [10] and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? [11] "Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand.[/i]

Acts 13:38-42 (NASB-U)
[i]"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, [39] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. [40] "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
[41] 'Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.' "
[42] As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.[/i]

I'm sorry Olan, but I can't see how you think you have made your point using the text you have chosen. To the contrary, they only prove mine.

In the one example he was speaking to a heathen in and backed up his words with Holy Spirit power. Who standing there could argue him to be un-loving? What Christian would dare?

The second example with him quoting Habbabuk, they desired him to stay on and say more since they could relate to what he was saying and wished to bemade more secure in the matter of what he was speaking.

I find nothing un-Christian or otherwise in Paul's words or actions that another Christian could ever take offense.

So I pass this back to you for adjustment....either mine or yours.

Lovingly,

Orm

dorcas wrote:
Ormly said to dorcas:

Not to be nit-picky but we are to listen to the voice of the Spirit.....not the shepherd of our souls. Big difference since most of us have yet to purify them that we can make those distinctions. (1 Peter 1.22)

1 Kings 19:12 (NASB-U)
After the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing.

(NKJV) 1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

Greetings Ormly,

I'd be grateful for the scripture references to 'the voice of the Spirit', please.

In my understanding, we hear the Spirit cry 'Abba', but walking in the Spirit and living in the Spirit are different from knowing the voice of the Shepherd.

Peter also said (1:2:25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but [u]are now returned[/u] unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

So we really [b]should[/b] know His voice, is my point, really.

My original basis for exhorting us to know the voice of the Shepherd comes from John 10. When I heard this preached, it was one of the most transformingly practical messages ever to reach my ears. Jesus is telling us a truth.

How can you resist it (except on your own behalf), or counsel against believing it... if that's what your comment above really means?

"Big difference since most of us have yet to purify them that we can make those distinctions."

I would not make a linear progression out of this, but rather exhort us all to do our best to listen and obey at all times, especially when we feel confused, to wait longer and allow the Lord to dismantle our barriers - our deafness, if you will.

Brother Ormly, I hope there is not a division between us for my sayings above. By all means exhort me to know the voice of the Spirit as well (I believe I do), and exhort me to purify my soul through unfeigned love of the brethren, but, please don't ask me to choose between one or another of these exhortations, or to take it upon yourself to prescribe the order in which I should work on them in my relationship with the Lord, unless you are speaking from specific revelation for me. Are you? If so, please PM me with the details. I am always open to correction. Really, I am. 8-)

If I leave stand what I stated you would be correct in calling me on it since the intended Shepherd of soul is the Lord Jesus Christ. Therein lays the problem. Is He? Peter speaks in the present tense as God usually does when He says to us, “You ‘are’”, even though we know we are still working on the “becoming”. In other words, what is present tense for Him is the future for us. Having said that and until we come to the point in time that Jesus Christ is truly the Shepherd of our soul, who or what is still competing for that position? Is it not the challenge that faces us that we are to be certain of the Spiritual ground on which we stand?
Jesus said, [i][b]“Take Yoke upon you…”[/i][/b]. What does that mean if we do not also follow His instruction:

[i][b]“learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."[/b][/i] Matthew 11:29 (NASB-U)

Does this help my case in anyway?

:-Drmly

This was the problem with the Pharisees and scribes. They prided themselves on being able to determine that Isaiah, and Jeremiah, and the other scripturally vindicated prophets were true men of God. Yet they refused the preaching and message of John the Baptist - who spoke the same kind of words as Isaiah and Jeremiah and others - "But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John" (Luke 7:30).

Dear overseer,

If they had done their homework; if they did not have so much pride or been considering their change purses...What else might I interject here that scripture points to as a reason they didn't accept John the Baptist' message? And aren't they some of the same reasons we are able see as reasons for these present day offenses, i.e., pride, no knowledge, etc?

I have not been saying that people should take offense at Paul - on the contrary - but I am saying that many of the same people who say that they wouldn't have taken offense to Paul do take offense to today's true ministers who are speaking in the power of the Holy Spirit and from the authority of the Word of God, doing both polemics (2 Corinthians 10:3-5) and apologetics (1 Peter 3:15).

How do you or I know they except by the fruit on their tree? If they are a branch who/what is the vine? If Christ Jesus alone, how can I have a problem? However, if there seems to be a mixture, as in adulterated, I'll let Jesus' words speak for me?

[i][b]"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." [/i][/b]Mark 8:38 (NASB-U)

Should we not be discerners in this? Interesting, this new church speaks of "Equipping disciples; equipping ministries, etc," yet knows nothing of discernment except what comes against their agenda..

Orm

Orm asked at the end of his reply

Does this help my case in anyway?

I'm too short of time to do your response justice, but my first thoughts is that you have changed the subject completely.

I exhorted us to know the voice of the Shepherd. You've said this causes you a problem. To be honest, I don't know why it should. We all have to face the challenge of knowing His voice according to Jesus' own words and He made it sound a lot easier than you are making it. I'd say He's right in that once I started [i][b]listening[/i][/b] for His voice, it was not hard to discern. It's what we do after that, though, that counts us as sheep, or not.

I don't dispute we also have to hear from the Spirit, but you put the two 'voices' in opposition to each other, in your original contention with me.

I would contend that those two voices are different ways of discerning communication from the same One God, and there is [u]no competition[/u] between them.

If you want to discuss the next point you raised, about 'becoming', then we can move on to that, but, you haven't convinced me that we [i]don't[/i] need to 'hear' the voice of the Shepherd (of our souls) and follow hard after Him - as I first exhorted us.

dorcas wrote:
Orm asked at the end of his reply

Does this help my case in anyway?

Bro Orm,

I'm too short of time to do your response justice, but my first thoughts is that you have changed the subject completely.

I exhorted us to know the voice of the Shepherd. You've said this causes you a problem. To be honest, I don't know why it should. We all have to face the challenge of knowing His voice according to Jesus' own words and He made it sound a lot easier than you are making it. I'd say He's right in that once I started [i][b]listening[/i][/b] for His voice, it was not hard to discern.

Oh! Your soul must really be in tune with Him that you discern His voice without questioning. Is that so?

It's what we do after that, though, that counts us as sheep, or not.

Indeed.

I don't dispute we also have to hear from the Spirit,...

But what "Spirit"?

.....but you put the two 'voices' in opposition to each other, in your original contention with me.

Only in so much as most souls don't egual out with their spirits unto the Lord but rather some other spirit yet to be violently cast out, pride being the most obvious one. In other words most haven't died to "self" therefore discerning voices will remain a problem for them.

I would contend that those two voices are different ways of discerning communication from the same One God, and there is [u]no competition[/u] between them.

A little too "New Age-ee" for me, my sister.

If you want to discuss the next point you raised, about 'becoming', then we can move on to that, but, you haven't convinced me that we [i]don't[/i] need to 'hear' the voice of the Shepherd (of our souls) and follow hard after Him - as I first exhorted us.

I'm sorry, but your exhortation to follow the "Shepherd of my soul", isn't narrow enough for this fellow to embrace.

Orm

MSeaman wrote:
dorcas said:
Bro Orm,

I'm too short of time to do your response justice, but my first thoughts is that you have changed the subject completely.

I exhorted us to know the voice of the Shepherd. You've said this causes you a problem. To be honest, I don't know why it should. We all have to face the challenge of knowing His voice according to Jesus' own words and He made it sound a lot easier than you are making it. I'd say He's right in that once I started listening for His voice, it was not hard to discern.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ormly said:
Oh! Your soul must really be in tune with Him that you discern His voice without questioning. Is that so?

Bro. Ormly

I'm not trying to get into the middle of your discussion with Dorcas, just a question?

Do you think that a sheep(the animal) can become familiar with its shepherds voice after hearing it often, but a Believe can't become familiar with Christ's voice after hearing it often?

Why would Jesus say it then? isn't becoming familiar with His voice how we discern between It and our own heart's voice or the enemy's voice?

Isn't the fact that Dorcas capitalized 'Spirit' indicative that she means God's Spirit?

Perhaps I misunderstood what you are saying. :-?

Do you believe Satan can heal anyone?

This is not a trick question I ask you. Your answer will help direct my answer.

Thank you,

Orm

You know he is a liar and deceiver so in believing he can also heal, what in what name do you suppose he would do his healing?

Orm

Sure he can but the problem is you think the devil can heal. He can't. He can only afflict and then on cue [in the name of Jesus], lift the affliction. So now I ask you how would YOU know the difference if you were in the presence of that happening as to whether the leader was of God? What yardstick would you use to determine the validity of what you saw? Hint: its the same yardstick when learning to hear the voice of the Lord instead of some other lord.

Digest that and see where it takes you before saying more.

Orm

MSeaman wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

I truly hope that I am by challenging you in this.

Let me give to illustrations:

Suppose you sought God for a particular thing and it came to past. You would be quick to think you were right in Him; your Christian walk as ok, correct? Now lets suppose further that you also consider Buddha to be a creditable source for living a good life even maybe your "Christian" Yoga classes to be part of that. How could anyone make a determination as to the voice spoken to them or give credit to God because of answered prayer and to what god would that credit be received? What conviction could possibly persuade you that the answer was OF Christ Jesus? If we are called to a singleness of eye how can a spiritual mixture within us give the desired results of the Father? Can't be. Won't happen. Therefore, someone or something other is happening in our "Christian" experience that is not Christian; NOT of God.. but the results hold us bound.

Consider me a to be good Christian. Sunday morning is all you see so that wouldn't be a problem if I came to everyone with a smile and a few non-convicting verses of scripture. This Sunday I come really sick and ask for prayer to be healed. What you don't know is I am living in adultery. But that doesn't stop me from asking for prayer annd you all quick to pray. So the preacher lays his hands on me and I receive my healing. What parmanent injury has just happened to me? WOW! -- I say, my Christian walk must be satisfactory; my adultery is not an issue. Not only that but the preacher, who is also in unconfessed sin, thinks he is ok and God's man of the hour. I mean after all, there are these healings and such taking place to prove it. What god is being served?

Get me drift?

Blessings in Christ,

Orm

PreachParsly wrote:

Ormly wrote:
Sure he can but the problem is you think the devil can heal. He can't. He can only afflict and then on cue [in the name of Jesus], lift the affliction.

Are you sure about that?

Jhn 4:53 So the father knew that [it was] at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

Jhn 4:54 This [is] again the second [u]miracle[/u] [that] Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.

Someone was "healed" yet the Bible calls it a miracle.

But a miracle or miracles performed by Jesus, correct? That's the context.

Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a [u]notable miracle[/u] hath been done by them [is] manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny [it].

Peter WAS a true disciple of Jesus Christ. Can you deny that? Didn't Jesus say that true disciples "would do greater things than these"?
Seems our challenge and obligation to others is to make certain of our discipleship.

And again...
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those [u]miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, [b]which had the wound by a sword, and did live.[/b] [/u]

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, [u]working miracles[/u], [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that [u]wrought miracles[/u] before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

How do you know Satan cannot "heal?"

Where in the above is mentioned the "miracle[s] of healing"?

Orm

MSeaman wrote:
Are you assuming that I am running around chasing signs and wonders and believing that everything comes from God? Or that I believe that just because it is in a church that makes it Biblical? I am fully aware of the deceptions that are in the 'churches' today.

I guess I don't know where you are coming from with all this. I realize that this post was started talking about a critical spirit about different ministries, but that wasn't the context in which I had asked my questions.

I appreciate your comments and that you are only challenging me for my own growth. Thank you again. :-D

But then, I really don't know what you do, do I?

I am just throwing up a couple of illustrations as to what I have witnessed and know of and have been taught by scripture to be error. I hope you will do the same. In your hunger for righteousness will come enlightenment in which you can have confidence.

Blessings in Christ

Orm

Again, Satan can only afflict and then lift the affliction. Job is a prime example of this.

Orm

Bottom line issue is this:

Matthew 7:22-23 (NASB-U)
[i][b]"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' [23] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."[/i]"iniquity"[/b]

Hi Ormly and readers! Sorry to be lagging behind here.

Back on p5, in response to Ormly's suggestion we should [i]not[/i] listen to/for the voice of the Shepherd (see John 10), [i]but rather[/i] to/for the voice of the Spirit, I said:

I would contend that those two voices are different ways of discerning communication from the same One God, and there is no competition between them.

A little too "New Age-ee" for me, my sister.

Then Orm quoted me again

If you want to discuss the next point you raised, about 'becoming', then we can move on to that, but, you haven't convinced me that we don't need to 'hear' the voice of the Shepherd (of our souls) and follow hard after Him - as I first exhorted us.

I am equally :-o by this response!

Brother Ormly, you have failed to support your original point either with a logical argument showing why it is wrong to follow the voice of the Shepherd, or a logical argument as to why we should listen to the voice of the Spirit [i]instead[/i] of the Lord Himself.

[u]For the record[/u](p4), I had raised the topic of false shepherds, [i]after you (had)[/i] in your quote from scripture. The last part of your post read:

Paul was concerned for his children in the Lord; those he shepherded. Thats not the case here. We're contending with those who speak as shepherd's; shepherd's with an uncertain voice.

[i]For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Acts 20:29 (KJV)[/i]

Why can't that be understood?

Orm

[i]not sparing the flock[/i]

'This is far more true than Christians would care to believe.

The most useful thing any Christian can do for him or herself, is practise knowing the Voice of THE Shepherd of their souls, and following hard after, regardless of what anyone they know, is doing.... Save yourselves from this untoward (God) generation, said Peter.'

So, I still have no idea why you disagreed with what I said about 'THE Shepherd' of our souls, as this is the perfect antidote to Paul's concerns, and, it is in keeping with more of Jesus own words (backing up my defence which you found "a little too New Age-ee" - for yourself ....)

(KJV) John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

So now we have [i]three[/i] of the 'voices' of God in agreement. Does this also cause you a problem?

Brother Ormly, you have failed to support your original point either with a logical argument showing why it is wrong to follow the voice of the Shepherd, or a logical argument as to why we should listen to the voice of the Spirit instead of the Lord Himself.

It isn't wrong IF He is the lord of your soul. Getting you to understnad that from me has been my ambition so far.

Ormly, it seems you wanted to discuss voices and sources of healing alternative to the power of God, and that's the only reason you challenged my statement about knowing the voice of the Shepherd.

In certain types of pagan worship, the priests can be pierced through with spears or cut and neither do they bleed, nor feel pain, and when the spears are removed, they are not permanently injured or scarred.

However you explain these phenomena, I take your point that Satan is a deceiver and believers need to be careful how they deduce their standing with God. I would add, this must be done in the light of the [u]whole[/u] of scripture.

I believe it is unwise of you to imply a believer - yourself - would NOT be walking a [i]narrow enough[/i] way if he was following hard after the voice of THE Shepherd (of our souls).

Paul has already stated:

1 Cor 14:10
There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them [is] without signification.

This is exactly why a believer [u]must[/u] tune his ear to the voice of the Shepherd, and we as observers of each other should be flexible in our acceptance of however He chooses to communicate His heart, mind, thought, wish, guidance, direction.... how He connects with us in our unique and individual language in conversation with Him..... 'conversation' meaning more than just talk.

In the same way as it can be said the democratic process elects the leader those people deserve, it is also true that we make mistakes in our discernment of the Shepherd's voice, based on the culture and assumptions which is ingrained in our thinking. God allows us to hit a rock, as it were, to force us to open our minds to the possibility we were out of line with His mind.

Painful though this is, and fraught with many serious mistakes for some of us, it is His love which seeks to separate us from such closed thinking as prevents us from being more used by Him. Sometimes the reasons we think the way we do, are wholly explainable - even admirable - but, if we invite Him to make us like Him, we cannot but be changed. Over the years, I've concluded He does know us better than we know ourselves and in His mercy, He brings us the shortest possible route. It takes faith to believe that, of course, and it isn't always obvious from our side of the blanket that God is anywhere near, but, as we risk trusting that He took us at our word in previous prayers, I would testify He is very trustworthy with our souls.

dorcas wrote:

Ormly, it seems you wanted to discuss voices and sources of healing alternative to the power of God, and that's the only reason you challenged my statement about knowing the voice of the Shepherd.

In certain types of pagan worship, the priests can be pierced through with spears or cut and neither do they bleed, nor feel pain, and when the spears are removed, they are not permanently injured or scarred.

However you explain these phenomena, I take your point that Satan is a deceiver and believers need to be careful how they deduce their standing with God. I would add, this must be done in the light of the [u]whole[/u] of scripture.

I believe it is unwise of you to imply a believer - yourself - would NOT be walking a [i]narrow enough[/i] way if he was following hard after the voice of THE Shepherd (of our souls).

Paul has already stated:

1 Cor 14:10
There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them [is] without signification.

This is exactly why a believer [u]must[/u] tune his ear to the voice of the Shepherd, and we as observers of each other should be flexible in our acceptance of however He chooses to communicate His heart, mind, thought, wish, guidance, direction.... how He connects with us in our unique and individual language in conversation with Him..... 'conversation' meaning more than just talk.

In the same way as it can be said the democratic process elects the leader those people deserve, it is also true that we make mistakes in our discernment of the Shepherd's voice, based on the culture and assumptions which is ingrained in our thinking. God allows us to hit a rock, as it were, to force us to open our minds to the possibility we were out of line with His mind.

Painful though this is, and fraught with many serious mistakes for some of us, it is His love which seeks to separate us from such closed thinking as prevents us from being more used by Him. Sometimes the reasons we think the way we do, are wholly explainable - even admirable - but, if we invite Him to make us like Him, we cannot but be changed. Over the years, I've concluded He does know us better than we know ourselves and in His mercy, He brings us the shortest possible route. It takes faith to believe that, of course, and it isn't always obvious from our side of the blanket that God is anywhere near, but, as we risk trusting that He took us at our word in previous prayers, I would testify He is very trustworthy with our souls.

Ok

Blessings

Orm

EDIT: Orm, thanks.

It seems your posts and mine have been leapfrogging each other. When I posted first this afternoon, I didn't see you had posted again just before me. Sorry everyone if this reads like organised chaos. It wasn't intended so.

It isn't wrong IF He is the lord of your soul. Getting you to understnad that from me has been my ambition so far.

I would be grateful if you'd have the courage to come straight out with what's on your mind, instead of sprinkling your posts with hypothetical scenarios and implied suspicions.

You made a direct statement in contradiction of my unstated allusion to the words of Jesus Christ.

Now, you have introduced an 'IF' to your thesis, which is wholly unnecessary, 'if' one considers that Jesus Christ was and is THE only Good Shepherd, who goes out to seek the lost ONE, leaving the ninety-nine righteous safe in the fold already.

I see that the lost - the Satanist who knows no better - who has never heard of the greater power of the blood of the Lamb - and many other religionists and unbelievers - may be confused about which voice they are hearing, and what it means. But, again I say that the voice of the Shepherd of souls is a safe voice to follow, whether one is confident in one's knowing of it, or desperately trusting to get close enough to hear it more clearly the next time He speaks (to one).

I acknowledge completely that some of what goes on in some churches is, or is tantamount to sorcery or witchcraft - sins of the flesh in all sorts of religious and spiritual guises - but none of this completely undoes the ability of even an unsaved person, to discern either the voice of the Shepherd (God), or, to learn to discern the voice of His arch-enemy. I speak from experience, and would point out that when Legion saw Jesus arriving in his stretch of the coast, he [i]ran[/i] AND [i]worshipped Him[/i] (according to Mark's account).

In other words, who is going to have an excuse for not knowing the voice of the Shepherd when He starts to separate the sheep and the goats?

EDIT: Ormly, blessings to you too. :-) Please feel free to respond again if you want to pick me up on anything more.

PreachParsly wrote:

Where in the above is mentioned the "miracle[s] of healing"?

You completely missed what I was trying to say. :-D I quoted a miracle of Jesus and one of Peter. None of the scriptures I quoted said "miracle of healing," but miracle. Not even the ones about Peter or Jesus. And the scriptures in Revelation I quoted, mentioned miracles, not healings. Do you see the parallel I was making?

I'm sorry but I don't. I'll give you two outta three though... ;-)

Orm

I acknowledge completely that some of what goes on in some churches is, or is tantamount to sorcery or witchcraft - sins of the flesh in all sorts of religious and spiritual guises - but none of this completely undoes the ability of even an unsaved person, to discern either the voice of the Shepherd (God), or, to learn to discern the voice of His arch-enemy. I speak from experience, and would point out that when Legion saw Jesus arriving in his stretch of the coast, he ran AND worshipped Him (according to Mark's account).

Sorry, but you are blatantly wrong.

:-(

Perhaps its the way you have worded things that I don't understand and that you see that from me.

It says that the false prophet will do miracles. If you look in the Bible at things that have been called miracles (the 2 examples of Jesus and Peter) some of them would be what many would concider "healings."

And it doesn't say healing is one of them so why assume what isn't there. I stand my remark that Satan can't heal. Point me to one where he did instead of assuming much.

Rev 13:3 [i]And I saw one of his heads [b]as it[/b] were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.[/i]

Rev. 13:3 (NASB)
And I saw one of his heads [b]as if[/b] it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

[i]Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.[/i]

Rev. 13:14 (NASB)
And he [b]deceives[/b] those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

I trust you can read the "as if" and see there is no actual miracle healing. .... and the word "deceived" that should help you understand it wasn't a miracle healing but only looked like one. Did you ever consider he could be healed in a hospital bed, by doctor? The wording does not allude to it being more than that.

Question: Why are we having this debate? Why are you pushing this? You seem to want to find a reason he can heal?

Jesus CAN heal. Your previous post is so convoluted with a mixture of the miracles of Jesus and whatever you would have me to accept that you even mis-construed His miracles to be "possibly" something Satan could do ---- and it is so distorted by your added comments I can't even begin to address it.

In Job's time of trial, who made him to be in distress and who healed him? Why?

Hi Ormly. You said:

Sorry, but you are blatantly wrong.

Thanks. :-)

Btw, when I refer to 'the Church', I mean the true (invisible) Body of Christ on earth and in heaven. My use of lower case 'c' for 'church', always refers to that mixed gathering of people who come under an organisational / institutional banner / building, some of whom - of course - do know the Lord, but some - at least - who don't.

Bump! For the attention of Ormly, please.... :-)

Ok, if you insist,

I see that the lost - the Satanist who knows no better - who has never heard of the greater power of the blood of the Lamb - and many other religionists and unbelievers - may be confused about which voice they are hearing, and what it means.

STOP! There will be no confusion about the nature of the voice. Is it the voice of [b]the Shepherd[/b] or their shepherd? The test will always be by a spirit bearing witness to spirit. Is this instance, is it the Holy Spirit we seek as the witness. Confusion is because of the "uncertain" voice entering ears of the willfully/neglectfully ignorant, "willful" having to do with unconfessed sin and/or personal religious conceit whereby deceitfulness might have its way. And how shall the neglectful escape being deceived?

But, again I say that the voice of the Shepherd of souls is a safe voice to follow, whether one is confident in one's knowing of it, or desperately trusting to get close enough to hear it more clearly the next time He speaks (to one).

In light of my remarks I'll let you answer the rest of yours.

;-)rm

Brother Ormly,

Please be patient with me. I have been stretched in the past by some very trying situations, and my powers of lateral thinking have been so increased that sometimes I wonder if I'm communicating clearly.

Please (also) let me state what I hear you saying in your last post, and comment on it.

[b]There will be no confusion about the nature of the voice[/b]. Is it the voice of [b]the Shepherd[/b] or their shepherd?

Confusion is because of the "uncertain" voice entering ears of the willfully/neglectfully ignorant, "willful" having to do with unconfessed sin and/or personal religious conceit whereby deceitfulness might have its way. And how shall the neglectful escape being deceived?

I also appreciate that it can be hard when the person or people in deception are one's own nearest and dearest, or, people for whom God has given one a special love.

'The test will always be by a spirit bearing witness to spirit. Is this instance, is it the Holy Spirit we seek as the witness.' ??

If the latter, how does anyone ever get saved?

As I asked at the start of this post, please be patient with me. 8-)

OK. In the light of Peter's statement already quoted in this thread, ' but have now returned to the Shepherd...', how does anyone make the change, if there isn't a point at which they are hearing the voice of their first shepherd AND the voice of THE Shepherd of their souls?

It isn't a matter of making a change. However, it is a matter of making a choice. "To whoever you yield to to him whose servant you are, or become."

Who or what is the voice one hears is either from convictions or affinities he possesses. If it is by consensus he chooses, one can rightly say he is lukewarm. Man is capable of making those distinctions. He must be on guard to choose wisely. He must learn to choose wisely and that from a desire to know Christ and from teaching from those who do. "Buyer Beware!

Orm

ps. I'm off to teach my ssmall flock. I will respond to the rest later.

Blessings,

Orm

Thanks Ormly,

I'm more glad now that I asked!

When you add to you reply, later, please explain in more detail what you mean by

It isn't a matter of making a change.

dorcas wrote:

Thanks Ormly,

I'm more glad now that I asked!

When you add to you reply, later, please explain in more detail what you mean by

It isn't a matter of making a change.

Much appreciated.

I tried writing out my response and found myself getting bogged down with words that I wasn't satififed would answer your inquiry but rather give cause only for more questions.

While doing a search of Oswald Chambers on "The need is not the call", I came upon some stuff that I believe will answer your question in a way I had hoped I could. He not only answers my inquiry but yours also. I found 100 notes but I needed only to read the first 5 to be convinced I was on the right track with my remarks to you.

January 16th—The voice of the nature of
January 14th
October 26th—What is a missionary?
May 31st—God
December 20th—

Blessings,

Orm

Dear Ormly,

I'm going to have to take this slowly. I looked at the first OC page and came up with this.... You don't have to respond yet, but, I will post what strikes me in support of my thesis, as it comes to light.

Let me say also, though, that what you said about the ability of man to discern between the voices he hears, of course I agree, but, that's why I don't really understand why you said

STOP! There will be [b]no confusion about the nature of the voice[/b]. Is it the voice of the Shepherd or their shepherd?

So, to the last bit of Oswald Chambers, Jan 16th:

'But when I am brought into relationship with God, I am in the condition Isaiah was in. Isaiah's soul was so attuned to God by the tremendous crisis he had gone through that he recorded the call of God to his amazed soul. The majority of us have no ear for anything but ourselves, we cannot hear a thing God says. [b]To be brought into the zone of the call of God is to [u]be[/u] profoundly [u]altered[/u][/b].'

It isn't a matter of making a change. However, it is a matter of making a choice.

dorcas wrote:

Dear Ormly,

I'm going to have to take this slowly. I looked at the first OC page and came up with this.... You don't have to respond yet, but, I will post what strikes me in support of my thesis, as it comes to light.

Let me say also, though, that what you said about the ability of man to discern between the voices he hears, of course I agree, but, that's why I don't really understand why you said

STOP! There will be [b]no confusion about the nature of the voice[/b]. Is it the voice of the Shepherd or their shepherd?

When God speaks and one is sure it is God, one is sure it is God. When God speaks and one is not sure it is God, one has to work through the reasons for one's uncertainty until will concludes it was indeed God who spoke. If it was [i]not[/i] God, then all the wishing in the world won't make an honest seeker able to conclude that it was; that other voice, he heard, he [i]must[/i] reject.

So, to the last bit of Oswald Chambers, Jan 16th:

'But when I am brought into relationship with God, I am in the condition Isaiah was in. Isaiah's soul was so attuned to God by the tremendous crisis he had gone through that he recorded the call of God to his amazed soul. The majority of us have no ear for anything but ourselves, we cannot hear a thing God says. [b]To be brought into the zone of the call of God is to [b]be[/b] profoundly [u]altered[/u][/b].'

It isn't a matter of making a change. However, it is a matter of making a choice.

Now, here I need you to do some fancy footwork to explain how your statement ties in with OC's? Or, perhaps the choice precedes the change?

Indeed. Just as OC stated it--Isaiah was altered before He could hear. Read again what you placed in bold letters. If it is still unclear then re read the whole quote.

Orm

First, I've edited the error out of my post, but you don't have to edit your quote of me, if you don't want to.

Indeed. Just as OC stated it--Isaiah was altered before He could hear.

Stop moving the goal posts please.

dorcas wrote:
First, I've edited the error out of my post, but you don't have to edit your quote of me, if you don't want to.

Indeed. Just as OC stated it--Isaiah was altered before He could hear.

But you said a change was unnecessary.

quote]

Only in the context of what you were originally saying ....and I'm still hearing -- that we should obey the shepherd of our souls. I believe that also and so does OC. You made no distinctions as to who that shepherd was or is, assuming it had to be Jesus. Being confronted as to who the shepherd is we seem to be hearing, we need to be able ascertain who that shepherd is or who seems to be speaking for Him. Isaiah learned that, so must we. Change first by way of the revelation of Jesus Christ; the new birth experience and His baptism. Hopefully, proper choosing will follow.

Orm

I didn't move any goal posts.

You made no distinctions as to who that shepherd was or is, assuming it had to be Jesus.

I am logged into a Christian website where many of us quote scripture to emphasise the origin of our thinking. On this occasion, within the context of the thread, it happened that I didn't.

You had just [b]quoted[/b] Paul saying wolves would come in, not sparing the flock. I quoted 'not sparing the flock' and referred to hearing the voice of THE Shepherd of our souls (trusting it was [i]obvious[/i] I was referring to Jesus Christ).

If you weren't sure if that was a scriptural concept, it would have saved both of us a whole lot of time, if you'd just asked for scripture to back up my point. (Wouldn't it?)

Instead, you suggested we are NOT to listen to the Shepherd of our souls, but to the voice of the Spirit, and when asked for scripture to back up [i]your[/i] contention, what you brought from the New Testament was not directly connected to your original statement.

Of course, you can post what you wish, but, I think we are coming at the same thing from different angles.

You haven't said anything that I disagree with (within the context you created for each point you wished to make - that is, what you have offered is [i]not[/i] within the context of your original challenge to me), and you still haven't shown any reason to set the voice of Jesus Christ [u]against[/u] the voice of the Spirit.

Please, [b]if[/b] you are going to explain why you wanted to set these two in opposition to each other, will you state it much more clearly (for me) than you have so far? I'd be grateful.

Here is my original statement. Please explain what is confusing, remembering that at that time, the discussion had centred on what Christians might say about each other, at times, whether of ordinary flock-members, or of church leaders.

'The most useful thing any Christian can do for him or herself, is practise knowing the Voice of THE Shepherd of their souls, and following hard after, regardless of what anyone they know, is doing.... Save yourselves from this untoward (God) generation, said Peter.'

:-D Thanks.

'The most useful thing any Christian can do for him or herself, is practise knowing the Voice of THE Shepherd of their souls, and following hard after, regardless of what anyone they know, is doing.... Save yourselves from this untoward (God) generation, said Peter.'

Fine.. How does one practice AND WHAT IS THE MOTIVE FOR PRACTICING?

Thank you

Hi Ormly,

How does one practice AND WHAT IS THE MOTIVE FOR PRACTICING?

I will think about how to reply, (as I'm short of time today), tomorrow.

Hi Ormly,

WHAT IS THE MOTIVE FOR PRACTICING?

If I leave the answer as vague as that, I am not open to be picked up on for what either I include, or leave out of, a list of possible motives.

Retrospectively, I can honestly say on my own behalf, it's about knowing that I know God. I think I was greatly encouraged some years ago, when I realised that He knew me. But, I remained unsure that I had any real idea of Who He is.

The only other word which comes to me in this regard, is FAITH (that is [i][b]by[/i][/b] faith). Without faith the journey is impossible. Probably I could say more about my own journey, but it's not necessarily helpful.

Since I see you're online (Ormly), I'm going to proceed with the rest of my answer. You might want to wait for it before commenting on my previous post, but, please feel free if there is something specific to it you'd like to say.

Dear Ormly,

I allowed myself to be distracted at the preview stage of this post, and [i]lost[/i] it. I do really apologise. :-( It was a bit lengthy, so I'll try to condense it for you tomorrow. I'm out of time online for today. Thanks for your patience.

OK, I'm back, Ormly.

dorcas said

'The most useful thing any Christian can do for him or herself, is practise knowing the Voice of THE Shepherd of their souls, and following hard after, regardless of what anyone they know, is doing.... Save yourselves from this untoward (God) generation, said Peter.

Ormly asked:
Fine.. How does one practice ...?

In so saying, I'm not making an undue labour out of the 'choices and decisions' which life throws our way, but, neither do we need to ignore their potential for developing our consciously tuning our ear to God.

As I considered the difference between the voice of the Shepherd and the voice of the Spirit, I felt the Spirit leading me to see it mainly as a matter of perspective on and of the same journey.

The Shepherd (as in Psalm 23) leads us the right way. His voice is ahead of us calling us on. The way He leads us is not necessarily easy, but, He is with us and we find ourselves on the way of Holiness, the paths of righteousness; having entered by Himself, the Door, we find the green pastures promised in John 10 also, and the freedom to go out and come in, in safety, despite the overbearing pressures of the valley of the shadow of death - where again, it is the Shepherd's rod and staff which discipline and comfort simultaneously.

The voice of the Spirit is much more specific at times - not that the Lord Himself does not also speak specifically, as we see from Paul's words in Acts and also find in our own relationship with Him - being beside us with the exact thing to do or say right at the instant we need to hear God's immediately relevant word.... but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost - Mark 13:11, Luke 21:14, 15.

The are other aspects of the ministry of the Spirit which are best summed up by quoting John:

John 16 (KJV)
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

Returning to the matter of 'how' does one practise, there are three main points, I believe.

1) Offer every choice and decision to God and simply do what He puts in your heart at the time, trusting that you are learning obedience. Don't expect to get 'your own way' and learn to be thankful for hearing from Him, as much as for the opportunity to show how serious you are about obeying Him. (Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that [b]doeth[/b] the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness... Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.)

2) If you are not sure it is God putting ideas into your mind, keep being honest with Him about your confusion. He knows you are confused and being not the author of confusion, He [i][b]will[/i][/b], if you are patient, bring you through to clarity of understanding and peace.

3) Once God has revealed His will, whether you have asked Him or not... for instance, if it comes as a check in your spirit to NOT follow a certain course of action.... [i][b]do what He says![/i][/b].

John 2
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, [b]Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [/b][it].

Acts 3:22
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Deuteronomy 18
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well [spoken that] which they have spoken.

18 [b]I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him[/b].

19 [b]And it shall come to pass, whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require of him[/b].

Revelation 19:21
... which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

(NASB) 1 John 1
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not [b]practise the truth[/b];

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Personally, a few years ago, I was arrested by the NASB's rendering of the KJV's 'do not the truth' (v 6), because the word 'practise' literally takes up more space and forces one to consider the implications of 'doing'. One can 'do' what one likes, or, one can [i][b]practise[/i][/b] 'doing' THE TRUTH.

How does one pray? However seems practical at the time for the circumstance, but not neglecting to pray when one can be alone and on one's face or one's knees - at least, in privacy - silently or out loud. What matters is communicating both with God and one's own spirit.

If one's own spirit is spouting shocking inconguities in contradiction of one's professed walk, then don't kid on you didn't hear (or God didn't hear).... deal with it properly, even if it slows you up, because the fruit of righteousness in His Name, is well worth bearing for Him, and for the sake of one's own soul's salvation.

If my thinking is still unclear, please quizz me again.

Sounds good but how does one tell the difference betwen the voice of the "angel of light" and the voice of the Holy Spirit? .... Feelings? Vibes? Success in the matter?

Sounds good but how does one tell the difference betwen the voice of the "angel of light" and the voice of the Holy Spirit? .... Feelings? Vibes? Success in the matter?

It would be helpful if you'd quote what I've said about waiting until one is sure one has heard from God, and tell me what is difficult to understand about it.

Or, are you asking personally how I know when God has spoken (to me)?

Or, what do you disagree with of what I've said?

When the New Covenant promise says in Hebrews 8,
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for [b][/b].

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

I take that to mean 'all shall [[b]be able to[/b]] [u]know me[/u], from the least to the greatest', (as I'm not a universalist).

So are you asking how [b][i]I[/b][/i] differentiate between the 'voice of the "angel of light" and the voice of the Holy Spirit'?

Last question: would you like to share how [i]you[/i] make the distinction?

Or, are you asking personally how I know when God has spoken (to me)?

Yes, this is what I'm asking. What's your yardstick? Can it be all that difficult to understand?

Can it be all that difficult to understand?

I wasn't trying to get out of giving further definition to my response.

Your post which I answered used the word 'one' not 'you'.... which is why I asked.

If you were sticking with 'one' I would give a different response from the one you've asked for, in the end, when pressed to be specific.

Yes, this is what I'm asking. What's your yardstick?

[u]More detail[/u]
As I've already said, I believe that when God speaks to a person, they know it is God. Or, they can ascertain it was God, by waiting on His clarification. Also, as I said before, I believe people who are not born again can hear God speak to them extremely clearly. If this is not so, then no-one can be saved (by any definition of salvation). However, the person who hears God from an unsaved perspective, may not be so clear that it's God, as someone who already is sure they have met Him, or has given their life to Him. (I'm suggesting that [i]meeting the Lord[/i] doesn't necessarily lead to salvation. See the New Testament for countless examples of this.

And, I also believe that people who call themselves Christians can be confused. This may be because there is interference from outside - the person calling themself 'pastor' may offer a different 'definition' of how one knows the voice of the Spirit....

To digress slightly, when there was a thread on the KJV being the inerrant word of God, it came to me clearly that unless one includes the authority of personal testimony (backed up by the changes in the life to which that testimony lays claim), simply reading scripture to people may not carry the weight they personally need, to have their mind changed. In the Shock Awe video thread, I agree exactly with what you said... let me quote you exactly

I can't argue with the scriptures that have power in themselves.

Another 'place' one might find guidance most clearly expressed by God to one's heart, is during times of congregational worship. I'm not sure how many people know how to worship God even there, but if they do, and if they also do in private, then those are times when the clarity of the Spirit is unmistakable.

When praying on one's face or one's knees, I believe time is an important factor. The kind of matters one brings to God in such times of seeking and listening, are probably different from those which are brought to Him as we live out in the world, so the issues themselves demand greater attention, perhaps greater persistence on our part, or perhaps greated abandonment to His searchings.... perhaps we have to invite Him, or give Him permission to touch things which have never come under His gaze and ours at the same moment.... but as we bravely look, we see why it was not possible for Him to hear Him clearly till then. Often with conviction (and repentance) comes the necessary healing, the specific word and the end to that particular question.

On distinguishing 'the voice of the "angel of light" ', I'd say only a few things quickly, here, because my time online is closing soon.

The BIG thing I've noticed about him, is that he shouts too loudly. There is often an element of pleasing men - compromise - in what he suggests or encourages, and no matter how one frames it, there is no scriptural support for his suggestions. If one knows the Lord, or has known Him, then there is an accompanying inner deadness or numbness, the further one strays from the truth, and the more often one falls into acting according to the lies of the angel of light, the less fellowship one can honestly either experience or claim with God. One may not notice at first, but as the gap becomes discernible, we have to look back to the most likely moment we began to mistakenly fall away. I could say much more about returning to God, but the more one knows Him and the peace of abiding in Him, the easier it is to notice when that peace is disturbed by attacks or lost skirmishes or outright violations either by the enemy or by us.

First, I wouldn't call it a yardstick. It is not a single parameter, but rather a world of parameters which may engage differently, depending on the issues in the mix, and depending where oneself 'is' in the mix.

As I figured. You will always have a problem.

Thats too bad.

As I figured. You will always have a problem.

Lets drop it.

If you are hungry after righteousness you will find it. 'nough said.

Forgotten the heading of this thread you are writing under here?

Nope. However, I am weary of whatever I sense that disturbs me...

Compton wrote:

As I figured.

Hmmm,

Brother I don't think you really meant to say you anticipated being dissapointed in Dorcas. Personally I'm tired of brothers and sisters claiming to have me figured out.

You will always have a problem.

Again, I can't believe you meant how this sounds. Where is your faith? Dorcas has the Spirit of God in her...there is never a point where we can't become more conformed to Christ today then we were yesterday!

It hurts me deeply to read the pronouncement "You will always have a problem" applied to one of us.

Blessings Ormly.

MC

I am truly sorry you feel that way, Brother.

I believe she likes her position, whatever it may be, and is comfortable in it; does not wish to be disturbed.
I see pit falls. Should I be blamed for giving the warning or should I walk with her to the cliffs edge? You tell me.

crsschk wrote:

Nope. However, I am weary of whatever I sense that disturbs me...

Ormly, think MC furthered the same concerns ... Brother, I am just weary of assumptions, pronouncements in various forms, good, bad, indifferent. It does strike me as spiritual pride, but just as well it may have inwrought misunderstanding. One can find themselves in a sort of pickle, bringing forth these things ... Prideful to point out pride? Stay silent? One's own planks ... on it goes.

Generally speaking, the one thing that seems missing greatly in any number of discussions is a backing down, a consideration for others, a true appreciation and consideration for what is being spoken. There often seems a quick dismissal and a further entrenching of position ... How do we cease the war of the saints?

I may have completely misunderstood you brother here and elsewhere. Please clarify and bring your own observations to bear on the matters, I know there is a blind side ... if I could see it, well...

Sad, but we can only gauge by what we read.

Be assured it is not a pride issue with me. I have come through too much for that.
But then, you only have written words, mine, to gauge me by.

I've got you figured out, you best believe I do!!

to a tee! lock stock and barrel!

everything. I can run your life down to ya, backwards , forwards, sideways and every which way!!

Do ya hear what I'm saying son?

I'm talking to you!!

(laughing)

teasing ya, when you boys and girls gonna come up and see me?

Our sister says sometime next year, that would be blessed. Lemme put on a show for you, I promise you won't be bored, and maybe even edified.

I'm in Cali with the boy, and we're getting ready to do some benevolence work....and tommorrow off to see the Angels play the Yankees, and Monday to see the Dodgers take on the Reds.

no! baseball is not an idol, its a great venue for some quality father and son time. Our vice at the ball game is hot dogs and soft serve ice cream.

love you brother.

crsschk wrote:

But then, you only have written words, mine, to gauge me by.

Ah! But that is the rub brother, how that is perceived. Is it not by our very words that give the impression that we form? The difficult part in this is often by way of our poor articulation ... We know this well enough and have spoken to it numerous times here. That being said it is still "[i]playing the ball and not the man[/i]". Have no gauge of measurement for anyone any longer, I believe it is the epitome of "judging with wrong judgment". Will not allow a thought to form beyond that which is written, that is the whole issue with assumptions and conclusions about those we do not know.

RE: Articulation?

I don't have a clue as to what you just wrote.

Indeed, you are. Respectfully, lets leave it there..

....Can we imagine Jesus dismissing us "I figured as much. You will always have problems...”

Now I've been at the receiving end of "You will never change" comments, given by wise and spiritual people who have a reputation for being close to God.

Words mean something, my friend.

I never said she wouldn't/couldn't change, did I? Context will reveal by implication that she will always have a problem given her present affinities/understanding.

I want no more of this discussion.

:-(

roadsign wrote:

I want no more of this discussion.

Ormly, I love you and I’m NOT going to let you off the hook now. Combining your comments here with your sceptical comments about my testimony in the “Shock and Awe” thread, I have to say that it seems you have been in a “fight” mode. And since you are not winning, you are now jumping into a “flight” mode. (Did you read about this in the WW3 thread – ie fight and flight are survival instincts we employ when we fear and sense threats)

Ormly, Someone once said, “In a disagreement we may be 1% wrong and the other party may be 99% wrong But we are accountable for our 1%. And that is what God is after.

Before flighting...

What do you think about “them apples”?

Diane

Wrong again. I did not enter to fight but to bring my experiences of 55yrs of seeking to know Christ, with the hope of being a help. I've been where most on this forum, are.

Again, no fight. Take it or leave it. Dust shakes off easily.

How do you like them apples?

Good afternoon everyone.

I would like to thank the brethren and sisters who have responded since I went offline last evening. It is true I was hurt by Ormly's last comments, particularly as I find that when challenged by the men, he finally disclosed the yardstick for which he purported to have been searching in my posts. [i]If[/i] he read my posts [i]thoroughly[/i], he responded on the rebound to every one, and I feel he has not acknowledged any of our points of agreement, constantly changing the subject slightly, rather than focusing on whether I had answered his original - challenge. It cannot be called a question.

When I came online a while ago, Compton's long post was the last one. I have spent the time since then summing up my response at that stage.

Diane, I'm grateful to you again for 'hearing' clearly, a point on which I also comment - namely Ormly's desire to bale out before the end of the party.

While I [i]could[/i] revamp the responses I've prepared in the light of this morning's posts, I'm not going to. I have already thought very carefully, and edited, and will present the following in good faith to be received by you all, with the same honour which Ormly believes he has been giving me already.

Ormly,

I find I have answered this question you asked on p5,

Oh! Your soul must really be in tune with Him that you discern His voice without questioning. Is that so?

I know you are asking to drop the subject, though I don't understand why (apart from your 'weariness', which seems a reasonable state for a minister to experience), if you want me to believe that your care for my soul extends beyond your assumptions (about me).

I'm not surprised you're weary, btw, because I realise I'm giving you a hard time. But I know I'm doing it because you need to be bothered-with, as much as you thought I needed to be bothered-with when you first challenged me.

You are amongst friends here. Real friends in the Lord, and friends of Jesus. As mamaluk expressed, we are all indebted to each other for the prayer which each other offers, for the insights and edifications which we have received from each other, and for the enormous time others commit to SI, that we may enjoy fellowship in Him.

One of the ways that false shepherds falsely set themselves over their flocks, is by implying (as Compton described) that they know things about [i]God[/i] which you, the ordinary flock-member, do not have access to - [i]nor ever will[/i]. There are many other psychological ploys which they engage and it is a sore moment when one begins to understand one has become like them through one's intial naive acceptance of their pronouncements.

Brother, the damage spiritual abuse does, (which many of us have been through), is something the Lord can lead us out of, showing us His true Shepherd heart, and His skill as the Great Physician, healing our souls with His utmost compassion and not requiring 'repentance' as a condition. I'm sure you know this in measure, and I trust you will not let go of the hope that He can make any who need it, even more whole. I know you know Jesus can heal because you said so earlier in the thread.

Also, please know that staying the course in this thread has caused me to grow. I hope you have found the same, and in time to come you will risk sharing more of your pain with us, in a more direct way. I have been immeasurably [i]changed[/i] by the prayers of the saints here (to which I continually testify), and I know you are being taken to heart as you share yourself here.

If I have made one assumption in this thread (about you) it is that you are for real, and that the cynicism which adorns some of your posts is a disposable (unwanted) attribute, which accidentally interferes with the portrayal the true heart of your inner man.

However, you need not take up the challenges I lay out next.

I state in advance, I have not written anything lightly and am trusting the Lord to continue to minister to [i]all[/i] of us in this thread. Therefore, I am trusting you are as keen to grow as I know others are, and you will not despise what God brings to you through hanging around with saints at SI.

crsschk said

This is troubling, something of confusing the Persons of the trinity here.

I only made the attempt, because of Ormly's statement

Not to be nit-picky but we are to listen to the voice of the Spirit.....not the shepherd of our souls. Big difference since most of us have yet to purify them that we can make those distinctions. (1 Peter 1.22)

I don't know if you've been following the thread the whole week, but I determined to hang in with the discussion, for several reasons. (Ormly, you need to sit tight here, and wish you could hear my tone of voice and trust me it is explanatory, not declamatory.)

First, I have noticed from his comments in previous threads that Ormly knows about worship. Not many people can speak about worship as he does, and (without presenting this the [i]only[/i] 'yardstick' (;-)) for determining whether a person 'knows the Lord' or not), immediately he gained my respect for that. That's one reason I've been asking him questions (although he hasn't been answering them at all), because as I've said before, I [i]am[/i] open to correction.

Secondly, as I considered the challenge he had thrown out above, in response to my post at the end of p4 (I'd said),

'not sparing the flock'

This is far more true than Christians would care to believe.

The most useful thing any Christian can do for him or herself, is practise knowing the Voice of THE Shepherd of their souls, and following hard after, regardless of what anyone they know, is doing.... Save yourselves from this untoward (God) generation, said Peter.

But having pointed out in one of my initial responses to Ormly's query,

I would contend that those two voices are different ways of discerning communication from the same One God, and there is no competition between them.

I still have no idea why you disagreed with what I said about 'THE Shepherd' of our souls, as this is the perfect antidote to Paul's concerns, and, it is in keeping with more of Jesus own words (backing up my defence which you found "a little too New Age-ee" - for yourself ....)

(KJV) John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

So now we have three of the 'voices' of God in agreement. Does this also cause you a problem?

Thirdly, because of Ormly's difficulty in either giving a straight answer to a straight question, or asking a straight question in the first place, I had discerned (many weeks ago) what he has revealed in this thread in his own words,

I have come through too much for that.

Fourthly, Ormly made this statement last Sunday.

I'm off to teach my ssmall flock

Now, I see that Ormly has tried probably five times to extricate himself from this thread [b]without offering me the truth which he feared I didn't really know[/b], and it is only after some of you brethren posted, that he has finally declared the 'yardstick' for which he is supposed to have been searching in my replies, saying

If you are hungry after righteousness you will find it.

Brother Ormly,

I realise it's Sunday, and you are busy, but when you get back here, I refer you to p11 near the top of my second post

The Shepherd (as in Psalm 23) leads us the right way. His voice is ahead of us calling us on. The way He leads us is not necessarily easy, but, He is with us and [b]we find ourselves on the way of Holiness, the paths of righteousness; [u]having entered by Himself, the Door[/u][/b], we find the green pastures promised in John 10 also, and the freedom to go out and come in, in safety, despite the overbearing pressures of the valley of the shadow of death - where again, it is the Shepherd's rod and staff which discipline and comfort simultaneously.

Therefore, of course I agree that this is a basic position for both unbeliever and believer to adopt, [b]but I would never have picked this answer out of your original contention that the voice of the Spirit supersedes the voice of the Shepherd, and I remain concerned that you would hold following the voice of the Shepherd is not [i]narrow[/i] enough for you to embrace[/b].

If you have explained this, please just quote for me from earlier in the thread, because I can't find it.

If not, [u]this time[/u], [u]please[/u] explain your perspective, and help me understand why it so colours your interepretation of John 10, instead of trying to wriggle out of [i][b]my[/i][/b] challenge with a supposed-to-be disarming smile and 'virtual' silence.

I have borne with your proddings faithfully. Now, I'm prodding. Please do me the honour of a proper response, and don't worry about its length. I will read it.

If not, this time, please explain your perspective, and help me understand why it so colours your interepretation of John 10, instead of trying to wriggle out of my challenge with a supposed-to-be disarming smile and 'virtual' silence.

I have borne with your proddings faithfully. Now, I'm prodding. Please do me the honour of a proper response, and don't worry about its length. I will read it.

I apologise for my feeble attempts to explain what I see. I regret you having to "borne" anything of/from me.

I guess I don't know or just don't have enough words in my vocabulary to bridge the transliteration gap. This is not just for you I say this, but others as well who I sense don't know to reply to much of what I have posted. I had hopes and there are a few for which I am encouraged and to that I say thanks be to the Lord Jesus, I'm not alone after all..

Respectfully,

Orm

After sleeping and praying on this, I offer it as my last feeble attempt that it might be satisfactory, at least to some, pointing up the need for the living out the first part of the great commandment. If acheived, the second part will take care of itself. I hope all will consider these words [Jesse, etal] regardless of being posted in this thread.

The call of God is a call to participate in the nature of God…. nothing else. Being led by His Spirit is another issue and we must learn to know that leading.
Many are called, few learn and few are chosen.

Since we know that knowledge “puffs up”, the academic approach [man's reasoning], if pursued first, will only greatly serve the agent of deceit.
Those who earnestly seek God will do so from an intimate seeking disposition. This disposition can only be born in our spirit by His Spirit, by the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ…. Just other reason why Paul says to the born again, “Quench not the Spirit” because, Jesus said, “He will show you all things that are of me”. If obedient, we are a new creation.

Brother Ormly,

I thank you for honing down what was in your heart about being led by the Spirit, rather than the Shepherd.

Of what you said, the thing I continue to disagree, is that one has to be born again before one can hear what God (the Spirit) is saying. Yes, the ability to [u]walk in newness of life[/u] is a consequence of being born again, but, the ability to hear the voice of the Shepherd, is clearly stated by Jesus in John 10:9 "[i]I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, [u]he [b]will[/b] be saved[/u], and will go in and out and find pasture[/i].

From these words, it is clear that to get to the point of entry to the sheepfold, the Door, the sheep had to be able to hear voices, and choose which to follow.

John 10
(v 7) "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 "All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

This, and the outright denial of scripture which you offered to counter my original exhortation, matters a huge amount. This is not an academic distinction, either, for those who believe that every word in scripture has a place of edification for the seeker and the saint.

Although you have answered the part of my question which you wished to speak about, namely the 'voice of the Spirit', you still have not given any good explanation for why you would effectively remove a significant tract of John 10 (if you would), or given a fuller explanation for effectively drawing away from those verses, that world-wide audience reading this discussion.

Now, I realise you may have written hastily, and had no such intention as I've just suggested, but, I do feel, for the sake of the integrity of this discussion, that you need to give an explanation or choose different words to bring out a greater understanding of your difficulty with 'the voice of THE Shepherd of their souls'.

You said:

we are to listen to the voice of the Spirit.....[b]not the shepherd of our souls[/b].

crsschk,

You have pressed me for less - namely for scripture to support what you suspected might be an unscriptural statement.

I hope you will understand why I am most unwilling to let Ormly make a statement which [b]denies a tract of scripture outright[/b], without putting up some resistance to his thesis.

Here is the point of my contention:
you wrote":

Of what you said, the thing I continue to disagree, is that one has to be born again before one can hear what God (the Spirit) is saying. Yes, the ability to walk in newness of life is a consequence of being born again, but, the ability to hear the voice of the Shepherd, is clearly stated by Jesus in John 10:9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Though the Lord Jesus is the way truth and the life, the doorway of Him, mentioned by Him, is NOT for initial "Blood purchased" redemption/salvation, as the verse might seem to some to imply. It is for the born again to learn. Abiding salvation for the born again is found only in the Kingdom of God. That's what Paul meant when he said to Christians, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

John 10:9-10 (KJV)
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. [10] [b]The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly[/b].

Who is "they" mentioned in the above verse except those whose lives He has already entered.

What is a thief except one who steals what has been given/received? Hearing the voice of Lord is a learning process. Only the born again can learn it....and will, when they seek Him with all their might.

Perhaps reading the rest of the chapter would be a profitable thing to do..

You might want to ask yourself the question, "what is deception" because there are a lot of "Christians" in that condition.

Though the Lord Jesus is the way truth and the life, [b]the doorway of Him, mentioned by Him, is NOT for initial "Blood purchased" redemption/salvation[/b], as the verse might seem to some to imply. It is for the born again to learn.

'It is for the born again to learn.'

If the Lord - the Spirit - did not call to you and speak to you, [i]before[/i] you were 'born again', [b]how did you ever find the Door[/b]?

Why did Jesus say 'I am the door: by me [b][u]if[/u] any man enter in, he shall be saved[/b], and shall go in and out, and find pasture'?

Jesus' words there state that [i][b]unless[/i][/b] a person enters by the Door, they shall not be saved.... You are disputing this?

(There are other verses in the New Testament which refer to 'being saved', as well as 'will be saved', the whole journey being one of [i]believing [u]now[/u][/i].)

I am not disputing the need for new birth, but, how can you state 'the doorway of Him, mentioned by Him, is NOT for initial "Blood purchased" redemption/salvation'?

OK, according to your doctrine, when [i][b]is[/i][/b] the 'initial "Blood purchased" redemption / salvation'?

Your question about 'deception?' is familiar to me from long personal experience. I'd be interested to hear how you would define it, please?

Really, I don't want to dissect unnecessarily, but, you are attributing ideas to me which I have not put forward. Jesus said 'I am the Vine' and 'abide in Me' (John 15). I don't have a problem with that being part of the 'born again' condition.

I think your difficulty with John 10's verses, stem from some other misconception on your part.

For instance, look at this too (which goes with v 11)

John 10:12
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, [u]whose own the sheep are not[/u], [b]seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep[/b], and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

A sheep can be abiding in the Vine full time, and still be in danger from hirelings, and wolves.... but I digress. Please don't major on this last point. I'm more interested in how you can say that entering by the Door, is not the initial blood-purchased redemption/salvation. I'm all ears, now and I hope you will answer [b]all[/b] my questions.

Hi crsschk,

This seems to be a confounding of one thing on top of another...

Had I not been trying to find a scriptural way to accommodate Ormly's assertion about the voice of the Shepherd, I would not have written the long quote you make of me.

However, I maintain that I did receive a deeper understanding of both scripture and the picture language of the Shepherd, through accepting that scripture itself differentiates from time to time, who is speaking. But, I could not let the statement Ormly made, which is a reversal of the meaning of those verses in John 10, go. It is not a matter of opinion. And, since 'voice' is something attributed to God many times specifically, both in Old and New Testaments, the topic of 'voice' is not unreasonable. What I found unreasonable was the suggestion that we are NOT* to follow the voice of the Shepherd.

Had Ormly approached sharing how he sees 'the difference', using other terminology, and not on the platform of 'not', very likely we would not be on p15. However, I believe it is as much for the intergrity of the word of God, and the integrity of SI, that it has been worth pursuing.

I am grateful for the time and attention you are giving to oversight here.

If the Lord - the Spirit - did not call to you and speak to you, before you were 'born again', how did you ever find the Door?

In a nutshell.....You are throwwing back at me pet Calvinist dogma. He isn't the gospel......
.... learn that.

[i]Now to the rest of your mis-interpretations[/i].

dorcas wrote:

Though the Lord Jesus is the way truth and the life, [b]the doorway of Him, mentioned by Him, is NOT for initial "Blood purchased" redemption/salvation[/b], as the verse might seem to some to imply. It is for the born again to learn.

Ormly,

'It is for the born again to learn.'

If the Lord - the Spirit - did not call to you and speak to you, [i]before[/i] you were 'born again', [b]how did you ever find the Door[/b]?

I looked for it.

Why did Jesus say 'I am the door: by me [b][u]if[/u] any man enter in, he shall be saved[/b], and shall go in and out, and find pasture'?

Jesus' words there state that [i][b]unless[/i][/b] a person enters by the Door, they shall not be saved.... You are disputing this?

NO! You are mis-interpreting what He said ... and what I've said.. Get knowledge.

(There are other verses in the New Testament which refer to 'being saved', as well as 'will be saved', the whole journey being one of [i]believing [u]now[/u][/i].)

I am not disputing the need for new birth, but, how can you state 'the doorway of Him, mentioned by Him, is NOT for initial "Blood purchased" redemption/salvation'?

its simple.. by implication of ALL the text written. Read IT.

OK, according to your doctrine, when [i][b]is[/i][/b] the 'initial "Blood purchased" redemption / salvation'?

When Jesus shed His on the cross.

Your question about 'deception?' is familiar to me from long personal experience. I'd be interested to hear how you would define it, please?

I'm reading you.

Really, I don't want to dissect unnecessarily, but, you are attributing ideas to me which I have not put forward. Jesus said 'I am the Vine' and 'abide in Me' (John 15). I don't have a problem with that being part of the 'born again' condition.

Apparently, you do.

I think your difficulty with John 10's verses, stem from some other misconception on your part.

I have no difficulty with John 10. You are delusional; without a clue.

For instance, look at this too (which goes with v 11)

John 10:12
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, [u]whose own the sheep are not[/u], [b]seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep[/b], and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

A sheep can be abiding in the Vine full time, and still be in danger from hirelings, and wolves.... but I digress. Please don't major on this last point. I'm more interested in how you can say that entering by the Door, is not the initial blood-purchased redemption/salvation. I'm all ears, now and I hope you will answer [b]all[/b] my questions.

Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Begin there.

And that is NOT my opinion.

You are throwwing back at me pet Calvinist dogma. He isn't the gospel......... learn that.

Your head seems to be full of assumptions about my understanding and what I believe. [i]If[/i] I am a Calvinist, you will have to spell out slowly what I have said which makes you think I am..... because I have absolutely no idea what a Calvinist is supposed to believe - particularly since I've been on SermonIndex! ;-)

I am trying to get you to discuss the written word as it is written - [i]that's[/i] the ball - not [i][b]me[/i][/b].

You have, at every post, brought in other topics - not as part of an exposition in support of your disagreement with me, but as if to distract from my original exhortation for Christians to follow the voice of the Shepherd of their souls - Jesus Christ.

I have not brought an undisclosed agenda to this thread, in that my original exhortation is good for both Christians and non-Christians - and even you agree with that, as far as I can make out from what you have said.

Hebrews 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

These verses are why I believe Jesus, the Door, is how we enter the presence of the Father through new birth. If that's Calvinist, then perhaps he was right about something. :-D

My time on this computer is running out. I am hoping that others who know me better (perhaps), will have some idea what I am expected to learn from your comments.

For myself, you are leaving me far too much guesswork. I asked you for answers to questions. You answered one, I think. Please go back and answer the rest, [i]not[/i] assuming I can read your mind....?

Well, Ormly, In the past I would have been quite content to conclude our dialogue with words like these. You see, I was a fleer. I’d run away from any possible conflict because it felt too threatening to my fragile sense of security. My motive was FEAR, not faith. And my flights did nothing to strengthen the other parties. They just walked away feeling more righteous, and I felt more a loser.

Now, God is drawing me to hang in, and here I am, still hanging in – by faith in God. I WON’T let you walk away shaking the dust off - even if it’s getting in my eyes. And I myself won’t shake the dust just yet.

It just seems like you have been the right one all the time, and I have been the wrong one. Somehow a wall has been erected – and we just can’t walk together in Christian unity and harnony. Perhaps a combative- appearing style of relating has occluded my sights.

What can be done about this?

Be patient. One can only lay bricks so fast.

You don't know Calvin. You don't know your Bible.

No more. I'd rather pound sand.

I've been musing on the matter of Calvinism and Arminianism, and think I had a little fresh insight this morning.

First, please take a look at where I was on this a few days ago, in the thread '4 difficult questions' in Scripture and Doctrines forum.

What I saw this morning is

'We love Him because' is the Arminian position.

'He first loved us' is the Calvinistic position.

This is the anti-matter and matter of salvation; the annahilation of our sin, such that we can explode into living flame to burn with His Spirit - - - forever changed - - - one day to be like Him. (1 John 4:19) Amen.

Hi Ormly,

philologos wrote this at the end of his second post on p5 of the Original Sin thread. It seems to touch on an answer you gave me earlier in this thread, and I wonder if you can agree with him?

I haven't looked back to see where is the particular post you made, but, I know I couldn't work out how to explain what I thought was missing from your statement. It is the 'applied' segment of what follows.

[size=xx-small]An old puritan volume was entitled 'Redemption: Accomplished and Applied.' Christ's death on the cross was 'redemption accomplished', [b]it is not experienced in the individual until 'redemption is applied'[/b]. The whole world still lies in the wicked one.[/size]

I have heard of a critical spirit that even the world uses at times. But lets not fool ourselves, the real problem is not being critical, but rather it the root called Bitterness that has sprung up in our midst.

Being critical has it's good points, without it we might stay being a wild olive tree instead of a pruned one.

Bitterness is a strong word thats why it gets replaced with words like critisism, it hides us a little bit.

Take for instance the word 'HATE'. Say these words to someone whom you believe they hate.

"Oh, so you hate Greg, eh?"

Their reply would be, "Oh no, I don't hate anybody, I love everyone"

The carnal mind kicks into gear and rejects what the heart is truly projecting.

Thats why that mind has got to decrease, for the mind of Christ would acknowledge that something is wrong. Their reply would be something like this,

"I don't.............Oh, who I am trying to fool, I have some animosity towards Greg, he makes me so mad, but I know it's wrong, but at the same time, I don't know how to get over this. I've asked the LORD to forgive me and this still rears it's ugly head. I don't want to hate Greg, I want to love him. Please pray for me that I overcome this."

One of the things that I had to learn in my early Christian walk was, "I am not my own, I have no rights"

I have no right to hate anyone, there isn't enough reason to do so. To those who have taken away things that almost destroyed me, I have no right to hold anything against them, even though it has cost me to hold my peace, it was worth it, for God who owns our lives is able to vindicate us if we hold our peace and love our enemies and do good to them that despitefully use us. It ain't easy, it's hard, sometimes unbearable. Many a times I would just stare at the wall and say, "Why", other times I would preach to the cows and pigs.

Have I hated, yes, Have I been bitter, certainly, I don't know any man of God who hasn't experinced this. If you haven't you will, it's inevitable. We all say we want to die that He might live, there are many aspects to death, just out right dying would be nice. Ahh, but this kind of death is not the cessation of life, but it's where man does things to you, and your reaction to that determines your death or even life.

Before you react, don't!!

Karl