Willow Creek Leadership Speaker Promotes New Age?

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
I just recently came across this story over the internet, and thought I'd start a post to hear comments and concerns regarding this event.
Apparently, some pastors are either not hearing the voice of the Lord, or obeying His commandments and therefore letting wolves into the sheep's den - these wolves are promoting and teaching destructive heresies in supposed Bible-believing churches here in the western world. Is this true? Why are new-age teachers being allowed to promote new-age beliefs in supposed Christ-centered churches? May God grant us leaders in the church who will stand against the wiles of the devil who masquerades as an angel of light(2Cor 11:13-15)...
If this particular story is true, what a great shame indeed that some are deceived into believing that God Himself and sound doctrine are not enough(Rev 22:18-19)What happens to the blind that lead the blind?(Mt 15:13-14)
Link to read for yourself: [url=http://www.fromthelighthouse.com/blog/index.php?s=willow+creek&submit=Go%21]http://www.fromthelighthouse.com/blog/index.php?s=willow+creek&submit=Go%21[/url]
You can also listen to the CrossTalkAmerica, Augest 11, 2006 radio talkshow concerning this event by clicking here:[url=http://67.36.84.226/crosstalk/ct060811.m3u]http://67.36.84.226/crosstalk/ct060811.m3u[/url]
If we donot continually abide in Him, what hope do we have?...For He is our only hope.
The Lord continually blesses His children in many ways :-D
richie

Apparently, some pastors are either not hearing the voice of the Lord, or obeying His commandments and therefore letting wolves into the sheep's den - these wolves are promoting and teaching destructive heresies in supposed Bible-believing churches here in the western world.

Instead of listening to the Lord - many pastors are listening to the voice of "pragmatism." With all this "Seeker-Sensitive" and "Purpose Driven" pragmatic methodology, the church is quickly reaching the state of apostasy that must come first before the Lord comes back. For many, the truth is no longer determined by the Word of God but by "results." And if you can get results by compromising sound doctrine and incorporating worldly but ethical methods - then God must be blessing it and who are we to stand against it - "I'm in favor of [b]any method[/b] that reaches at least one person for Christ - as long as it is ethical" (Rick Warren, [i]The Purpose Driven Church[/i], page 156; emphasis mine). The "Purpose Driven" guru has given his permission to allow pragmatism to be the ruling philosophy and determiner of the truth. Ditto for the "Seeker-Sensitive" guru.

Paris Reidhead said in his sermon [i]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/i], which was preached in the mid-sixties, "Our day is a day in which the ruling philosophy is pragmatism...if it works it's true, if it succeeds it's good. And the test of all practices, all principles, all truth so-called, all teaching, is do they work?"
http://www.devcobaptist.org/clientimages/31831/excerpt1fromtenshekelsandashirt.wma

"Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!" (Jeremiah 9:1).

Thanks for the link - I have passed it on to others.

Grace and peace
Olan

Hi. Coming from a person who went to the conferance. I'd like to point a few things out.

Jim Collins wasn't saved. Peg N. had no clue how to speak 'Christianese'. Bono is a rock star. Ashish is a Harvard professor.

Now, some of you with a very quick judgemental spirit will be saying 'Yes, more reason to not like this conferance'.

But, I say that's full of crap. Has any of you ever went to college? A secular one if that? Well, if ur being so critical with this, then I think you should throw out your Bacholer's degree, because you learned it from 'unsaved' people. That goes for any degree.

And, I can hear it now, others will say 'but this is about God's kingdom', hmm.. Not really. The principles of the kingdom easily apply to life. (Sow-Reap, Treat everyone as u want to be treated)

And, Christ NEVER threw a stone at someone. And that EASILY looks like that in this thread.

It's funny, how people feel they need to 'stand up ' for truth. When they don't realize GOD is in control, not them.

To say you can't learn from someone is a PROUD spirit/attitude.

If you don't believe that, think of your kid telling you 'you dont know what ur talking about'. Or how bout an employee back talking you.

My review of this conferance, was that it wasn't perfect. But, this was the MOST influencial conferances I've ever been to in my life. I've been to alot of 'power' conferances, alot of teaching, but BY FAR this is greater.

It's funny also, that you judge and say this is a 'seeker-sensitive' thing. Ha, I really don't think you were there. Because one pastor said 'If your not willing to expose sin, then you need to leave your job as a pastor'.

Always remember the simple pharse 'When you point a finger at someone, you have 3 pointing right back at you.'

If salvation is the only issue then you may have a point, this is if I'm reading you correctly, but salvation is not the only issue at stake.

There is a also a journey that begins after salvation. What that journey is all about and how to travel the road that leads you to your destination IS the issue. In the new church thinking even the destination has changed ... if even mentioned at all.

Salvation and discipleship (the journey that begins after salvation) are inseparably linked together. "Enter through the narrow gate (true salvation through the true gospel); for the gate is wide (false salvation through a false gospel) and the way is broad (false discipleship) that leads to destruction (destination that IS the issue), and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small (death to self and sin; love of self, love of money, and love of pleasure cannot come through - true salvation) and the way is narrow (true discipleship) that leads to life (destination that IS the issue), and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:13-14).

Pragmatism says that if it works (if it gets people through the gate) it must be right, therefore methods don't matter. The problem is: which gate does worldly and unscriptural methods bring people through? And the gate that a person comes through determines the path which he or she takes because the narrow gate doesn't open to the broad way nor does the wide gate open to the narrow way.

Pragmatism causes people to judge by appearance - by the results - and then it opens the door for all kinds of destructive heresies - that is how false teachers are creeping in unnoticed and secretly introducing destructive heresies - they are hiding behind appearance and making pragmatism the standard for truth instead of God's Word. Then anything goes as long as it is working.

Grace and peace
Olan

It's funny, how people feel they need to 'stand up ' for truth. When they don't realize GOD is in control, not them.

lovegrace, if you truly believe this, why did you post?? What was the intention of your post??

Jude 3 Dear friends, although i was very eager to write you about the salvation we share, i felt i had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Seems to me that God uses his saints to sound the alarm on wolves who wear sheeps clothing. The initial poster was doing just that.

I dont see how any of this is 'funny' considering the Bible is replete with passages saying that wolves would invade God's flock.

Jim Collins wasn't saved. Peg N. had no clue how to speak 'Christianese'. Bono is a rock star. Ashish is a Harvard professor...Has any of you ever went to college? A secular one if that? Well, if ur being so critical with this, then I think you should throw out your Bacholer's degree, because you learned it from 'unsaved' people.

Church and secular college...Interesting comparison. Isn't that Yeshuaboy's concern for starting this thread...concern how secular and Holy Spiritless the church is becoming?

Because one pastor said 'If your not willing to expose sin, then you need to leave your job as a pastor'.

I'm curious how these pastors plan on exposing sin when they invite unbelievers to teach at their conferences. This is the problem today...we might still use biblical language but we place our confidence in secular business methods, and care about humanistic interests.

MC

Brothers and sisters, why can't you see your sin? I am guilty of it from time to time, but the evidance is clearly shown by your words. If you haven't, read this thread, please do so.: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11804&forum=35]Your sin[/url]

I can't say nothing more than that now. God won't let me. Please I plead with you, take some alone time between you and God and calm down and seek Him about this matter. You don't have to, I'm not your Daddy, but please strongly consider this advice.

Hello lovegrace and welcome to SI.

My review of this conferance, was that it wasn't perfect. But, this was the MOST influencial conferances I've ever been to in my life. I've been to alot of 'power' conferances, alot of teaching, but BY FAR this is greater.

It's good that you can bring us some first hand experience of this conference. Would you please elaborate on "most influential" and "by far this is greater"? The words you use give the impression it was a life changing event for you, can you give some specifics?

But, I say that's full of crap...And, Christ NEVER threw a stone at someone. And that EASILY looks like that in this thread.

Also, please consider your words I have quoted above...you seem to be throwing something of your own...:-(

In Christ,

Ron

Lovegrace wrote:

Brothers and sisters, why can't you see your sin? I am guilty of it from time to time, but the evidance is clearly shown by your words. If you haven't, read this thread, please do so.: Your sin

Lovegrace: I have re-read the thread on "A Critical Spirit" which was for the purpose of determining if people are violating Scripture by calling out false ministries or if we should just accept everyone and allow deceivers in to the fold. You have determined, evidently, that it is sin to do so. I would ask you to graciously consider these questions both scripturally and logically:

1. Is it sin to expose the differences between true prophets and false prophets? The Bible says, "Beloved, do not believer every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, [i]because many false prophets have gone out into the world[/i]....They (false prophets) are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world (false Christians) listens to them (false prophets). We (true prophets) are from God; he who knows God (true Christians) listens to us (true prophets); he who is not from God (false prophets and false Christians) does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:1, 5-6).
2. Is it sin to engage in polemics (destroying speculations and false doctrine with God's Word)? The Bible says, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful [i]for the destruction of fortresses[/i]. [i][b]We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ [/b][/i]" (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).
3. Is it sin to engage in apologetics (giving logical reasons for our faith and beliefs)? The Bible says, "But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense (logical argument or explanation) to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence" (1 Peter 3:15).

Grace and peace
Olan

I posted this on my Myspace page. This is my critique of the Willow Creek Apostate Summit, and the sorrow it brought me (and to the poster who said Jesus did not throw the stone at the woman- you are absolutely right. He did not throw the stone at her. He did something far more strong. He said "Go, and SIN NO MORE.")
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About three weeks ago, at my church, Evangel, ( a church with an elementary, junior high and high school,) the worship pastor "Larry" announced a summit that was coming up, the Willow Creek Leadership Summit 2006. As he put it, it was a summit for all aspiring leaders to attend to enhance their influence over someone and preach the Gospel. Fair enough, I thought. I felt I did need help presenting the Gospel in a way that Christ was glorified but at the same time I would be living proof that repenting and living a Christ-filled life indeed was a guaranteed blessing. With the encouragement of my girlfriend, I signed up and paid the fee--yup, paid. It didn't sit well with me that we had to pay for Christian leadership, but "Larry" said we got a discount. You see, those attending the actual event paid up to $300, but those of us watching via satellite would pay only $65. Fair enough, but still I couldn't help but think of Jesus when he called those men out for turning the temple of God into a den of thieves.

Whatever, I thought. I paid the ticket and just waited for the countdown to the actual event. But my spirit began to feel uneased at what would turn out to be a reality. I was feeling the reluctance when I learned that many of the guest speakers would be secular scholarly men, and the most shocking was a celebrated interview between Bill Hybels and U2 frontman Bono, who in a tour last year began chanting "Jesus, Jew, Muhhamad- all true, all sons of Abraham." This was ecunemism 101, and to say that I was outraged would be being too nice, but I had no right to complain as I paid my ticket and would have to suck it up. I just decided I would boycott the Bono segment.

The LORD prompted me to read the prophet Jeremiah for the last couple of weeks. I would read between 2-7 chapters at a time, even go back a few chapters to see what I missed. I could feel Jeremiah's frustation as his warnings to the land of Judah went ignored. Chapters 9, 14, and 23 stood out among the book, and I would soon realize why.

The day of the summit was upon me, and I entered my church with reluctance as I was given my name tag for all to see who I was. I took my seat with a sweaty back and looked at the gigantic teletron, or "summit-tron" on the pulpit which would broadcast to us via satellite the summit. I made acquaintances with a man named Kaz, who a week earlier gave his testimony about how he came to be saved. We spoke for a little bit until "Larry" the worship pastor walked onto the pulpit and welcomed back our pastor who was gone for almost two months due to knee surgery (and his absence was felt because the substitute pastors for the sunday services, people from other churches, were extremely light on doctrine. It was biblically void.) However, my heart began to break as the pastor was enthusiastically embracing this Willow Creek Summit. Here was a man who gave sermons on not conforming to the world's culture, and here he is now PROMOTING a worldly conference into our very church! I tried to reconcile my heart but deep down the image was clear: I was witnessing my church networking with the ecunemical movement.

The summit opened with a video montage of the state of the world with a song that promoted "oneness." In other words the lyrics went something like "one faith, one world, one Christ, one war, etc." It was followed by a rock band that harkened back to Blur or Green Day performing the song "Christ the Solid Rock." Aside from the exaggerated pyrotechnics, big screen and inflated choir, the lyrics at least promoted Christ' glory and His throne and His alone. At this point I was just reaching for any kind of biblical doctrine. It was the state of desperation that was to come.

Session 1 is of course the "senior pastor" of Willow Creek, Bill Hybels himself, titled "Life Cycle of a Leader." He mentioned Bill Gates, claimed most people admired Jimmy Carter post-presidency (despite the fact that Carter, an alleged baptist minister, is pro-abortion, pro gay rights and is largely responsible for the situation in Iran right now when he was president and allowed that regime to grow.) Regardless of politics, Hybels dropped some names and to make it all relevant he dropped in the occasional Bible names, Jesus obviously as well as Solomon. However, no mention of the Holy Spirit was present, and with no wonder as the Holy Spirit is all you need to become a firey leader for God. Of course this summit was nothing more then a susbtitute- nay, a $300 substitute for the Holy Spirit. But what Hybels said towards the end of his session was troubling but not surprising. He stated that he was called to "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and lead people to God." No mention of the Great Commission to spread the Gospel and preach it to all creatures that those who believe may be saved. Hybels is presenting the Roman Catholic doctrine of a works salvaton, that doing good works is your way to heaven. It was very obvious with his lack of mention of the Holy Spirit or even preaching the Gospel of salvation and repentance.

We broke from this and I got time to speak with Kaz. I shared with him information about Executive Order 13397, which was a federal law that basically made churches government property (you would have to read between the lines when you read the actual document, which is available on the White House' official site, because there would be no other reason our Homeland Security would be interested in any activity of our churches unless it was to add yet another arm for its diabolical system.) Kaz was receptive to what I was telling him, and I gave him a copy of the printout I made of Executive Order 13397 that he may study on his own.

Session 2 was "reverend senator" James Meeks. If you're familiar with Meeks, last year he was stopped and pulled over by cops for possibly speeding. Meeks, a black man, rushed out of his car, prompting present police to draw their guns on him. Meeks was obviously using his status as a public figure to break the law and leave his car instead of remaining in the car and following procedures and respect authority like the Bible commands us. Meeks was not repentant of his cries of racism and sued the police department. I only bring this up because as a leader Meeks should be an example of Christian leadership, not "do as I say, not as I do" theology. It was neither here nor there because that was not going to be relevant to the sheep around me as Meeks took the pulpit of Willow Creek and presented his summit. He was introduced in a video montage, and one photo showed him in a bus with his arm around hate monger Jesse Jackson. Birds of a flock. Anyway, he did bring his own brand of charisma as the Willow Creek congregation (and the congregation in my church) laughed themselves off at his jokes. Needless to say, I was not impressed as he presented the 10 enemies of a growing church. It is not relevant to list what he called enemies because I can tell you what wasn't on the list: being unequally yoked with unbelievers (2nd Corinthians 6:14,) allowing those living sinful lifestyles among the church (1 Corinthians 5:5-7,) loving the things of the world (1 John 2:15-15,) false preachers (Matthew 7:15-20, 24:11,24, Acts 20:29-30, 2nd Cornthians 11,) and a lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6.) Of course mentioning these as part of a list of enemies of the church would be beneath James Meeks and his part in the ecunemical movement and in this day and age of tolerance and feeling good. The tragic thing was that Meeks' presentation was about as Biblical as it got. It was all downhill from there.

We broke for lunch and I got to speak more with Kaz and a couple of other guys, trying to get the point across about the worldliness of the summit. There was some agreement but I could tell they were in conflict over the entire deal, as if they were trying to reconcile with the fact that there was some usefulness to the summit and looked for it.

Session 3 was Andy Stanley of North Point Community Church. Not much doctrine here, and although his message for the importance of family over church was a biblical one, it was overshadowed by his startling confession that he did not understand bible prophecy well. This is a man who is a pastoring a mega-church (though he, Hybels and company continually use the phrase "local church" to indoctrinate the cattle,) but is somehow clueless to the word of God. This is a far cry from Paul's lesson to Timothy about knowing the Scriptures and how it was profitable for doctrine, reproval, and completion of perfection. One thing I learned about the Emergent Church movement was that they try to emphasize the Bible's so-called ambiguity, a characteristic of the early Gnostics, according to 2nd century Christian Irenaeus.

The final session of the day made my blood boil, and my eyes sleepy. Peg Neuhauser, a woman with NO Christian association, nor a church or even a confession of Christ in her mouth, spoke about "tribal warfare" in church. I tried hard in my head to see where in the Bible such nonsense was ever an issue (aside from Paul's admonishing of the church of Corinth for being followers of either Apollos, Cephas, or himself when they should only really be following Christ, but tell that to the Billy Graham crowd that surrounded me.) She mentioned some things about our mind and so forth, which really was about as useful for a Christian as windshield wipers are for a bicycle. But one thing startled me and I was glad the LORD allowed me to have the discernment to see. In the book we were given to take notes, on Neuhauser's page there was a small chart with a circle and some words on it. Inside the circle were two lines crossing, thus dividing the circle into four separate equal parts. They showed the same image on the "Summit-tron" and it took no analyzing or thought to figure out what I was looking at. It was as if it just smacked me upside my head and laughed at me.

I was looking at the Gnostic Cross.

It was confirmed by the fact that much of Neuhauser's session was about the mind. Gnostics believe salvation comes from hidden knowledge. Friends, this was no coincidence. This was Satan imprinting his mark on the minds of the sheeple. The summit ended for the day and I was sick to my stomach, and I carried the burden of a very sorrowful and heavy heart. My spirit felt malnutritioned and I saw the brothers and sisters around me paving their way to Hell.
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Later that day, I was in my young sister's house taking care of her cats since she was out of town for the week. There was a very violent and strong thunderstorm, with a succession of thunder the likes of which I have never heard in my lifetime. My girlfriend called me from the train telling me of the frightening vision of the city being clouded in darkness, and she told me about the lightning bolt that nearly struck the car she was in. I told her that God was angry, and as the thunder got loud, I got on my knees and repented before the LORD. I knew he was angry with me for participating in this Willow Creek debacle, and I asked HIM to allow HIS goodness to shine through me as I would go into day 2 of the summit. God's anger was confirmed when my girlfriend called me to tell me that the cab driver who drove her home told her that God was angry. It was even further confirmed when my older sister's husband told me that he saw a lightning bolt strike right in front of his car.

Day 2 of the Summit will be a short essay because the truth is I only really heard about 5 minutes worth of anything before I left for good. I showed up at 11:30 intentionally, as I missed the first speaker, Ashish Nanda, who was oviously not a Christian and speaking things of the world (this was the first interview conducted by Bill Hybels with his ever loving universalism.) It was followed by another interview with Jim Collins, a man who owns a research facility, and it was this segment that I walked in on, the last 5 minutes. Not wanting to hear any more worldly tripe, I opened up my Bible and began to read Jeremiah. Chapter 23 was most definitely speaking to the sheeple who were chanting "amen" to every word spoken by these secular leaders, as if God sent them! The spirit of covetousness was most definitely in the air. In verse 22 of Jeremiah 23 , God says that any prophet HE sends must always preach about turning men away from their evil deeds and evil lifestyles. Psalm 1:1 says that a man is blessed who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly. God did not send ANY of the men at this summit because NONE of them spoke about repentance or living a life for Christ.

I gave Kaz during the break my Bible book, a book I wrote about the history of the textus receptus vs the Westcott and Hort texts. It was information I would hope would open is eyes. Unfortunately I would not give out any other copies of the book or of the Executive Order 13397 flyers I did because the spirt of wickedness from these so-called "christians" who spoke of doing works, spoke of doing this and that, charity, what their favorite modalist evangelist would say and so forth was just too much. God had delivered many of them to their delusions and falsehoods.

I boycotted the Bono segment as I said I would, but I wanted to look at 5 minutes of it at least. This time, though, I was not in the sanctuary of the church, but in the lunchroom with my only company being the cleaning ladies. It began with a video of Bono performing "Where the Streets Have No Name" in his recent tour. I was not in the sanctuary but I could just feel the sheeple upstairs clapping along with the song as if it was a Christ-centered song! Do you see what has happened? Worldly music had now CREPT into the house of God. This was apostasy in its fullest manifestations, with the added blasphemies of adding the texts of the Psalms over the video of Bono prancing around the stage to the delight of his worldly idolaters, both in AND out of the church. Hybels asked him the first question, and it was all I needed to hear. The question was "what is your first love?" Bono, keeping to true ecunemical form, admitted the god behind this entire demonic summit, and the summit's demonic purpose. He said his first love was music.

Brothers and sisters, you know who was created to be the first composer of music:

Ezekiel 28:13: Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the worksmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

I left after hearing Bono's answer and spent an hour with the words of Jeremiah the prophet. Bill Hybels said he wants to be among intelligent men. Jeremiah says wise men do not glory in their wisdom or might, but rather in knowing and understanding God (9:23-24.) Hybels boasted about fasting (which is in direct violation of what Jesus commanded in Matthew 6, regarding fasting in secret as opposed to putting on a show of suffering for everyone to see,) and men like Andy Stanley who admitted ignorance of Bible prophecy led in prayer. The word of the LORD through Jeremiah says "when they fast, I will not hear their cry, and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sowrd, and by the famine, and by the pestilence (14:12.)" When I returned to the summit, I got the input from Kaz about the gyst of Bono's segment. Obviously, all it did was inspire these people to think about what works they could do to enhance the kindom. Works salvation was what it was all about. Charity, feeding the hungry, and clothing the naked may be a good thing, but not preaching the gospel, all you do is prolong their eternity in Hell.

The final straw came when some female singer who I am not familiar with came on stage and sang two songs. One of those songs was "Everyday People." Familiar with that song? It has such lyrics as "Sometimes I'm right and I can be wrong, My own beliefs are in my song, the butcher, the thinker, the drummer and then, makes no difference what group I'm in I am everyday people" plus "different strokes for different folks, and so on and so on and scooby dooby doo. We got to live together." The ecunemical spirit was boldly preaching to the lost cattle who sold their souls just so they could party and learn how to be rich and powerful. I could never look at these people as my brothers and sisters again. I've all but lost a potential family and now find myself alone again in my Christian walk, an orphan now to find a church I can grow and die in. Or perhaps become a member of the underground churchs that assemble in people's houses like the first century Christians did in the book of Acts. I think it's that time I now seriously should consider the house church movement. It is clear that the churches that we know them now have been handed over to Satan and the world government, the universal government, the universal church. The Greek word for universal, by the way, is "katoliko." Pope Benedict XVI and the queen of his heaven would be very pleased.

Oh, and Evangel's school has been given over to the government. They lost their charter.

Wow,
...leave for a few days, and what happens :-?
My purpose in starting this thread was to gather opinions concerning the information that I came across, and to give others a chance to see/listen to the same thing that I did.
Is it sin to be concerned for the the church of Christ Jesus?
I'm have to run to work again, but I must say this before I go...
I know that this issue is very controversial in most christian circles today. However, should this be? I would've thought this thread would've received a few more comments from more of the members who have been here a few years...however, I believe that some careful research should be done to see if new-age heresies are being taught in the supposed body of Christ.
If a person, used to be a new-ager, or practice other forms of divination, and is now searching for a higher form of truth, because he or she still feels empty - this is one matter. However, if new-age, or Hindi, or Buddhist principals are being promoted within the Christian church body by men or women looked upon by the flock as influential or leaders, etc, this is truly an entire different matter all together!!!!!is it alright to burn strange fire in the midst of the assembly, or teach that their is a "better" way than that of faith in Christ Jesus- May God have mercy on me for even printing such foolishness!
And not to dish leadership workshops or conferences in anyway...How about someone putting on a servant workshop or doing a conference on how to be an effective servant? It seems to me that many would rather be leaders in the church, rather than servants - and this, also, doesn't make any sense to me at all(Mt 20:26-28; Php 2:3-8; Mt 24:42-46; Col 1:21-29)-all verses from the kjv Holy Bible...and there are many others of course.
I must leave now...God willing, let us discuss these issues some more that we will be greatly encouraged in our Lord Christ Jesus alone!!!
richie
Romans 16:17-18(kjv)

I would love to state my opinions and discerning thoughts about that letter, but the Spirit has restricted me, some was right, but much was omitted.

What your about to read below is what I wrote a few hours after this orginally started, speaking more generally but I believe it pertains to this. And below 'my'(I do believe they are God's words, I take no credit for it) words, I honestly challenge you to read the scriptures below it.

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*Reason for posting this [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.31:8-9&version=49]here[/url]*

A. People cutting branches instead of unrooting the tree.

In one word 'legalistic' come to my mind. I don't believe any legalistic person has bad intentions, but understands a simple concept "If you have Christ, your life will be turned upside down and inside out." But their focus is in the wrong place. They concentrate on the fruit and not the root.(The latter, not the beginning) They say "don't wear very short skirts to church" or "stop swearing around me" and even "you can't do/say that". And to a degree they are correct, but simply they miss the fact of having Christ at the root THEN effects the rest. To be honest with you I can't think of one person from [i]birth[/i] say "I will worship You till the very end."

Someone had to inform them of Jesus and His ways before they could say that. I think we, myself included, should change our judgements and instead build an atmosphere where the fruit WILL come. Challenge them in the quite times, fellowship with them and other believers, pray with them, etc. Many people in this Western society have depression issues and that mainly, I think, is because they're alone. Jesus spent 3 years developing 12 people not 2.5 billion. Yes, Christ spoke to the multitudes and such, but 1 on 1 He loved them and helped them and was honest and caring.

I think those that have been accused of being called a legalist, jump too fast and want to curse the fig tree, and rarly some want to call fire down from heaven. When Christ came, He came to redeem not to judge but when He comes AGAIN THEN (and only then) will fire come. So don't put people down before their time.

I look at Wesley and the rest and yes they were great but where is their ministry now? (This is gonna hurt some people) but honestly think about it. Salvation Army isn't the same, it's more secular. Methodists are old and dying. 'Their' message has GONE AWAY. Why? Because 'their' message had plently of [u]error[/u] in it. Yes people got saved and added to the kingdom. But no lasting fruit. Spurgeon hated Wesley, Wesley hated Indians, and Finney scared people. Does that sound like our Savior? Those that cling to 'their' teachings will say "Yes, Jesus turned over tables, exposed sin, and we need the fear of God." Umm, maybe we read different bibles, mine has 66 books, and Finney's study on revival isn't included. And on top of that, in Acts, if we really want to get biblical the ENTIRE community LOVED the church, religious and government leaders were the ONLY people that hated them. Those that we use, teaching of Spurgeon, Finney, and even modern day Ray Comfort cause people to HATE them, not just leaders, but the poor and needy, the bleeding and dying. Talk about adding stress to stress. To think we, mankind, have ANY part of redemption is a lie. I can't produce good fruit unless I destroy the tree. Then get a need seed planted. It's a matter of the heart, not of the skin or color.

Pro. 27:19 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.%2027:19;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.%2027:19;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
Pro. 27:9-12 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.%2027:9-12;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.%2027:9-12;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
Matthew 7:1-5 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:1-5;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:1-5;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
Ez. 7:26-27 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ez.%207:26-27;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ez.%207:26-27;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
1 Cor. 4:1-5 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%204:1-5;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%204:1-5;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
James 2:1-13 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:1-13;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:1-13;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
Pro. 27:18 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.%2027:18;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.%2027:18;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
James 4:11-12 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%204:11-12;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%204:11-12;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
2 Cor. 13:1-14 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Cor.%2013:1-14%20;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Cor.%2013:1-14%20;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
Pro. 29:1 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.%2029:1;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Pro.%2029:1;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
Gal. 2:1-21 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal.%202:1-21;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal.%202:1-21;&version=9;]KJV[/url]
Gal. 2:9-10 [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal.%202:9-10;&version=49;]NASB[/url] [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal.%202:9-10;&version=9;]KJV[/url]

Many people in this Western society have depression issues and that mainly, I think, is because they're alone. Jesus spent 3 years developing 12 people not 2.5 billion. Yes, Christ spoke to the multitudes and such, but 1 on 1 He loved them and helped them and was honest and caring.

Christ' only mission was to tell them that through faith in Him were they guaranteed of salvation. Many of the multitudes He was kind to, many of the multitudes He fed, many of them He cared for TURN THEIR BACKS ON HIM when He broke it down and told them that their salvation was found ONLY in Him (reference John chapter 6.) The problem with the unsaved is not depression issues or loneliness. It is simply that they have forsaken Christ. I know, because I was there one time. I had forsaken my LORD until I was broken.

I think those that have been accused of being called a legalist, jump too fast and want to curse the fig tree, and rarly some want to call fire down from heaven.

The main issue is not legalism, it is polluting the gospel and adding more to it. Paul says in Galatians 1 that anyone, whether it be a man or spirit, who preaches another gospel is accursed. he also spoke in 2nd Corinthians 11 about the simplicity found in Christ, and that many beguiling devils would try to pollute that simple gospel. In the case of Willow Creek, less emphasis was placed on salvation in Christ alone, and more was placed on doing good works apart from faith in Christ.

And on top of that, in Acts, if we really want to get biblical the ENTIRE community LOVED the church, religious and government leaders were the ONLY people that hated them.

I implore you to look at Acts chapter 5. Ananias was neither a religious nor government leader. He was a man who believed, but cheated the apostles out of the money they were to give them for distribution to the needy. God punished Ananias with death. You may say he didn't hate the church, but he most certainly didn't love it. Also, Acts 19 illustrates how regular people, NOT leaders, but silversmiths in Macedonia who were were indoctrinated in a culture not of Christ (in this case the worshipping of false goddess Diana)and made money under htis culture chased after Gaius and Aristarchus. The gospel was clearly not popular with those who couldn't profit from it.

To think we, mankind, have ANY part of redemption is a lie. I can't produce good fruit unless I destroy the tree.

The only part we have in redemption is to spread its message, defend the faith, and call out the wolves who pollute it. And a man cannot produce good fruit unless he is born again. Otherwise, he is serving the god of this world.

In Christ.

Without cyber tussling or going into my own personal details, I must say that what you said about President Carter is just wrong.

I have personal knowledge of the Iranian crisis, and you are wrong. Since this is a non exclusive public forum, I will not go into details. Also because I don't wish to stumble myself.

If you desire to hear a Carter cabinet intimate describe the character of the President I forward this link:

I don't wish to debate politics here, friend. All I know is three things about Carter today:

1)He is vehemently anti-Israel

2)Did he not allow the Ayatollah to gain power in Iran, something that is going to have prophetic and worldwide damaging consequences in the very near future with the state of affairs in the Mid East? Meanwhile, he continually critisizes Bush' mideast policies. That makes him a hypocrite.

3)He claims to be against abortion, but refuses to push congress to ban it. Politics 101. You're either for it and fight for it, or you're against it and fight against. You can't be against it and not fight against it (he wouldn't even attempt to overturn Roe vs Wade. If he had tried, it would speak volumes of what his true convictions are.) His stance on homosexuality in the church is also wishy washy (admits its a sin but is not against homosexual pastors.)

And with all due respect, if you want me to listen to anything regarding Carter, make it 5 minutes or less. I have no problem opening my ears if I am wrong on something, but I will not waste 1 hour and 34 minutes of my life finding out whether or not I was listening to a "yes" man. You can paint a clear picture of Jesus Christ in 2 minutes. I expect the same of any person, righteous or wicked.

lovegrace wrote:
But, I say that's full of crap.

If you actually knew the definition of this word I think you would have thought twice about posting it here, please look up the definition of it and I think you might apologize.

Thats wrong. He contended with both Sadat and Begin at Camp David and the result is a peace with Egypt that lasts to this very day. Thats not anti-Israel.

No. What's Anti-Israel is his insistence that Israel negotiates with terrorists. His op-ed here, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/31/AR2006073100923.html, lays most of the blame on Israel and less on Lebanon's efforts to disarm the hezbollah terrorists. He also brings up Israel's "disputed territory" which is a favorite term of anyone who feels Israel should shrink down and give her land over to her enemies. He talks of oppressed Palestinians but not much else on murdered Israeli civilians.

President Carter did not "allow the Ayatollah to gain power in Iran". Those wheels were set in motion in 1954 during the Eisenhower administration which gave the go-ahead for the CIA to topple the leftist elected president with the shah. Our national security apparatus meddled in the affairs of another nation and now we reap the bitter fruit. Prseident Carter had nothing to do with that.

Then is it safe to say that Carter should cease all complains and criticisms against Bush seeing as how Bush is only inheriting problems by his predecessors?

and as far as abortion is concerned, President Carter has always been against it, many who serve in government are , and don't think for a second that the republican party or President Bush is serious about ending abortion on demand.

Carter is against abortion but is not against overtuning Roe vs Wade. That makes him a fraud on so many levels. And this is not a discussion about Bush, as Bush' ties to the Skull and Bones fraternity makes him a counterfiet Christian, too.

You are slandering a fine man, who also happens to be a fellow believer. Shame on you.

A fellow believer does not condemn souls to HELL for allowing them to beleive in false and heretical religions. Carter has constantly labeled groups like the Mormons as Christians despite their false beliefs. Carter has NEVER publicly confessed that Christ is the only way to Heaven. Carter, like other apostates, emhpasizes works over faith in Christ alone, that Jesus Christ alone is the way to Heaven and no one else. Carter has never publicly proclaimed that. Instead he would allow Mormoms to continue their blapshemous traditions, feels homosexual pastors is ok, and has accepted the Nobel Peace Prize given to such "godly" men as Yasser Arafat, Kofi Anan, Nelson Mandela, Mikhail Gorbachev. If he had honor in Christ, Carter would have never accepted the award and never accepted the praises of men.

Shame on you, friend, for claiming that Carter is a believer. He is not a believer. He needs to repent and so do you for pushing this apostate as a Christian.

grasshopperj

You have the wrong forum here. Take your politics and venom somewhere else.

I would love to state my opinions and discerning thoughts about that letter, but the Spirit has restricted me, some was right, but much was omitted.

Lovegrace, you claim, (conveniently I might add), that the Spirit has restricted you from stating your opinions and discerning thoughts about that letter, and then go right on in violation and give us your opinions and discerning thoughts (that you do believe are God's word, although you take no credit for it).

Why won't you answer both scripturally and logically three simple questions? Isn't the answer that because if you did you would have to admit the nature of the battle to which we are called as Christians? And, if you call calling out false prophets and doing polemics and apologetics sin - then you are guilty too just by the very nature of your being on this forum and engaging in both polemics and apologetics?

Jesus never threw any stones - but He did use polemics and apologetics and called out false ministries. What do you think He was doing when He called the religious leaders in the Temple
[i]hypocrites[/i] and that in front of the people? What do you think Jesus was doing when He said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees"? What about His polemics: "Have you never read" (Matthew 12:3, 5)? And, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29-32)? What about His apologetics: "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He...If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?" (Matthew 22:42-45)

Maybe you won't answer because of the next verse - "No one was able to answer Him a word" (Matthew 22:46).

By the way - there is an opposite pole to legalism - it is called licentiousness (see Jude 4)

Grace and peace
Olan

What is political about what he is stating, Mike? I didn't read the words "Democrat" or "Republican" anywhere in what he wrote.

Not the point...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[b]pol·i·tics (pŏl'ĭ-tĭks)
n.[/b]

(used with a sing. verb)

The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.
Political science.

(used with a sing. or pl. verb)

The activities or affairs engaged in by a government, politician, or political party: “All politics is local” (Thomas P. O'Neill, Jr.). “Politics have appealed to me since I was at Oxford because they are exciting morning, noon, and night” (Jeffrey Archer).

The methods or tactics involved in managing a state or government: The politics of the former regime were rejected by the new government leadership. If the politics of the conservative government now borders on the repressive, what can be expected when the economy falters?

(used with a sing. or pl. verb) Political life:

studied law with a view to going into politics; felt that politics was a worthwhile career.

(used with a sing. or pl. verb) Intrigue or

[b]maneuvering within a political unit or group in order to gain control or power: Partisan politics is often an obstruction to good government. Office politics are often debilitating and counterproductive.[/b]

(used with a sing. or pl. verb) Political

[b]attitudes and positions: His politics on that issue is his own business. Your politics are clearly more liberal than mine.[/b]

(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The often

[b]internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society.[/b]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Take the embolden defenitions, mix it in with
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10431&forum=13&post_id=&refresh=Go]SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer (MUST READ)[/url], add the associated venom and assumptions and I think you will find the answer that there is little tolerance for these types of things here.

[i]Rend your heart's ...[/i]

With all due respect, all I was doing was defending what I stated in my letter about the Willow Creek Summit. Somone infairly criticised me for being against the mention of Jimmy Carter in any Christian summit (or rather, "Christian.") I didn't see you tell that person to take his venom elsewhere, especially since he was more emotional and abbrassive then I was, not to mention the fact that he clearly took one sentence in my original letter (which is all the space Carter took in that latter) and went with that to turn this into a political debate. My only intent was to show the falsehood of Willow Creek and their embracing of globalism (which Jimmy Carter is all for.)

I don't see anything wrong with what I did. I didn't argue for or against any politician, rather I argued for the purity of the faith that no wolf compromises it for the sake of numbers.

I didn't see you tell that person to take his venom elsewhere,

The remainder you can find in your own words and in the ease in which it spills so effortlessly from your pen. More than that, that it is even in your heart to do so.

I repeat, this is not the kind of forum you might think it to be. Read the link referenced earlier.

Dear Brothers and sisters in Christ,
I do thankyou for those that attended the Willow Creek conference and posted their comments here. There are obviously divisions concerning the issue of what to teach in the church today...
"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you"- 1 cor 11:19
Let us not be nit-picking children twisting one anothers words, for this is true carnality.
I am wondering how Paul felt when he wrote the first chapter of his epistle to the church in Corinth...
A quote from another wise man:"We need to be part of the solution and not the problem. I hope you realize that if we do nothing we are helping the enemy. We need to be active ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Oswald Chambers said this about discernment:'God never gives us discernment in order that we may criticize but that we may interceed.' And interceed we must. What is at stake is the glory of our Savior, the sanctity of His church, and the eternal consequences of those who are being deceived..."
Like it or not, we are all influential to some degree...whether unto evil or unto Godliness. "Wherefore my beloved brethren,let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God"- James 1:19-20(kjv)
Are we not to keep ourselves unspotted from the world?(Jam 1:27)
"Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door."-James 5:9(kjv)
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus...
Let us not give the devil a foothold ...
Please pray that God will establish me in His love being firmly rooted and grounded, for I face many assaults daily...
The longer I live, the more I realize how much I need Him. Please keep me in your prayers,
richie

But I don't consider him a follower of Christ.

But I don't believe he walks with Christ.

But I don't consider his benevolence a ministry of Christ.

Not on your best day will I apologize...

You are full of pride and need to repent.

Its a terrible shame, and embarrasing that this thread has spiraled out of control. The opening post by Yeshuasboy was an attempt to start dialogue on questionable practices by Willow Creek leadership, but was side tracked and degenerated into the Jimmy Carter show.

The opening post, which was to draw attention to Christian leadership allowing new age teachers a platform to 'teach' God's flock, was met with a rebuke.

The very act of questioning if certain practices are allowable in the Body of Christ, was itself questioned and pronounced sinful - without any substantial backing.

Hopefully we can get back on thread and deal with this. In this hour of Church history, when false teachers abound and wolves seek to devour the flock were being told were sinful because we are keeping watch and pointing out false teaching.

However Paul himself said "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." Acts 20:28-31.

I'm all for checking ourselves, and making sure this is done with the right motivation of heart. But its almost as if some would tell the watchman to come down from their watchtowers because there's nothing to see.

Just in case anyone missed OverSeer's great post, here it is. Its very pertinent, and i hope those who disagree with discernment, would answer it.

Quote:
I would love to state my opinions and discerning thoughts about that letter, but the Spirit has restricted me, some was right, but much was omitted.

Lovegrace, you claim, (conveniently I might add), that the Spirit has restricted you from stating your opinions and discerning thoughts about that letter, and then go right on in violation and give us your opinions and discerning thoughts (that you do believe are God's word, although you take no credit for it).

Why won't you answer both scripturally and logically three simple questions? Isn't the answer that because if you did you would have to admit the nature of the battle to which we are called as Christians? And, if you call calling out false prophets and doing polemics and apologetics sin - then you are guilty too just by the very nature of your being on this forum and engaging in both polemics and apologetics?

Jesus never threw any stones - but He did use polemics and apologetics and called out false ministries. What do you think He was doing when He called the religious leaders in the Temple
hypocrites and that in front of the people? What do you think Jesus was doing when He said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees"? What about His polemics: "Have you never read" (Matthew 12:3, 5)? And, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29-32)? What about His apologetics: "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He...If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?" (Matthew 22:42-45)

Maybe you won't answer because of the next verse - "No one was able to answer Him a word" (Matthew 22:46).

By the way - there is an opposite pole to legalism - it is called licentiousness (see Jude 4)

Grace and peace
Olan

I think if nothing else this thread shows that we all are still work in progress, sometimes we litigate things better that a bunch of high profile Washington lawyers and sort of in the same manner, for example even if were wrong or not sure or if it's circumstantial were sticking to our story no matter who it hurts or no matter who we slander, were here to prove our point and that it, and I have been guilty of this here also at times.

I know as most everyone here should know we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, so it's not us it's satan doing the stirring and we have fallen right into the pot, when we have all the knowledge in the Word of God to defend ourselves against him, because he was defeated at the Cross and he knows it, now when we figure that out maybe we stop carrying on like this wasting our time with petty stuff leave something for God to handle he does a great job at what he does.

We should get on to our most important job finding and bringing in the lost to Jesus Christ that's our number one job on the face of this Earth.
I was always brought up in a family that lifted up and never tore down and at 54 I still remember that well, and I try my best to hold on to this although I have been guilty of tearing down a few times, but most of the time when I begin to tear down this old family tradition enters my mind and I stop and just don't say anything I just leave it be.

I know here as well as most all forums people come to make a point and you will find some folks that when there not getting there point across they go haywire with all kinds of insults, bad words and at any cost, we are Christians we should know better even thought none of us are perfect and we all will get carried away sometimes, if we can just adapt like my family did when I was just a young kid to lift up if at all possible and never tear down even if we have to bite our tongue it's always better just give it to God, because tearing down is always a lose,lose situation for everyone, we are "Christians" we are winners not losers, we should be lifting up.
God Bless
Mr. Bill

Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Pro 8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Pro 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Pro 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Pro 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
Pro 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Pro 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Pro 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
Pro 8:19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
Pro 8:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Pro 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pro 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Bartle,did Lazarus/Jesse ask you to apologize to him over the thread on ' What will I not preach' when you told him to go to Mojave or some desert ?

I have no clue as to what this conference is about , but I think that whenever man tries to defend man, there WILL be strive. Its no better than when man attacks man. Christians need to defend Christ and those who slander Him or distort His Word. Nothing short of God's glory or love is worth defending.

When Christians are offended by others, there should be no need to demand apologies, is that scriptural? I Cor 13 "love is patient, love is kind...not easily provoked".I can only imagine the Lord demand apologies from me, I will have no time to do anything else.:)

Orm was right about this one thing for sure, self, when embraced, there cannot be sound discerning ability and there won't be love. I have read different post-ers here, I can see different style of writing, personality and temperament but I respect all of you as fellow human beings, if not brethren.

To be fair, we know that we all are proud, here and there, now and then.And it is often at our humblest moment,satan kicks in some more pride. It's no win, really, that's why the Cross is so so so precious, our Lord knows that we are helpless and hopelss sinners, so He took care of sins by His precious blood.

No, no need to defend man, especially people in high places, for the most part, they have their glory on earth quite abundant already, and only God knows whats what and whos who. Less we defend the wrong people and offend God. Judge leaders in any arena by their fruit in light of Christ glory. Be they 'good' works, or works that align with worldly agenda alone.

As Luther said, may God's glory alone, Christ alone, Scripture alone, Grace alone, Faith alone rule us.

Ok...I'm OFFICIALLY hijacking this thread back to the original post...
[b][i]Re: Willow Creek Leadership Speaker Promotes New Age? [/i][/b]

No, he was not...

I too attended the Leadership Summit.

If you would take time to read the literature, it is presented as a [b]LEADERSHIP Summit[/b] at Willow Creek, NOT a church leadership summit. It is meant to reach out to secular business leaders in our churches and present some new and innovative leadership techniques and applications. AND to reach out to church leaders with some [b]secular[/b] business models that may help them to lead their churches.

This has been Bill Hybels intention from the beginning. His father was a businessman who had a fantastic potential for business and, as Hybel's emotionally presented at last year's conference, [i]it was wasted on the business world while his church was starving for some real leadership. He died without using his tremendous potential for the kingdom of God because he was never invited to.[/i]

Yes, a church presented a business conference, [Sound familiar??? RE:John Maxwell's-Maximum Impact] and Jim Mellado from the WCA tells the secular attenders upfront and at intervals that if there is anything about the business/leadership models presented or the music played or the dramas presented that is out of their norm please relax and take it all in with an open heart and an open mind. IO knew going into the conference that there would be secular business models presented and there were! And you know what ??? They were used by church leaders around the county, specific on the how and what were also presented, and SOULS WERE BEING SAVED!

Willow is not perfect in any sense as none of us are but they are trying to reach the world, including the business world.

If it was presented to ANYONE in any other way then THAT was either the error of the speaker or the misinterpretation of the reader.

Hybels mentioned several times that Collins is an agnostic and Jim agreed that he has a way to go.

Bono said he's never had a problem with Christ, but Christians have been difficult for him. Christians seem strange to him. They can be very judgmental. They tend to judge people by surface problems. They have been the preoccupation of the church.
Grace turned this view of the universe upside down. It's hard for us to grasp grace. Bono said I'm much more interested in grace because "I'm depending on it."

Bono said, "I grew very suspicious of Christians, but I was determined to learn more about the life of Christ."

If you'd like to discuss it from a business perspective ... post another thread and those who attending will help you understand the BUSINESS concepts that we can use in our churches to build leaders and help people complete their journey... We KNOW that Christ saves and the leaders in the church help create the atmosphere of discipleship that keeps many from staying 'baby Christians'.

There were several leaders who spoke from pastoral experience about personal matters that affected the leaders of [b]any[/b] organization, Secular or social.

If you want to talk [b]church[/b] leadership conferences look to the notes from The Shepherd's Conference at [url=http://www.gracechurch.org/shepnew/notes2006.asp]Bethlehem[/url]or the Innovative Church Conference at [url=http://www.wiredchurches.com/]Granger Community Church[/url].

Ok, that record straightened you can go back to your ... discussion, political rant, whatever, you call it; it ain’t Christ-Like. I’m gong back to the real world …in this case [and this one only] I’m with Bono…I NEVER had a problem with Christ, but ‘Christians’ have been difficult for him.

Thanks, crosscheck [Mike?] for trying …
Lovegrace- you showed some real heart and courage keep it up! We need to see more of you on the boards...

AND to reach out to church leaders with some secular business models that may help them to lead their churches.

"You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world [i]makes himself an enemy of God[/i]" (James 4:4-5).

The church isn't an organization it is an organism led by its head - the Lord Jesus Christ - not some secular business model.

Grace and peace
Olan

I wasn't defending President Carter, but I certainly wasn't going to allow a man , Jimmy Carter who has publicly proclaimed Jesus as Lord, and then demonstrated Jesus love in the post-presidency years thru being a peacemaker and in engaging in benevolence ministry, be slandered and gossiped by faceless posters on this forum.

Jimmy Carter is not a Christian. Here are his OWN words concerning homosexuality:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/915.htm

"If that person [a homosexual] was demonstrating the essence of Christianity, I would not object to the individual being ordained," Carter said. "Yes, homosexuality is a sin but so is adultery. When somebody doesn't give 10 percent of their earnings to the church, it is a sin. All of us are sinners every day. And adultery is a more serious sin than homosexuality."

Here is what the Bible says about pastors:
1 Timothy 3:2
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach."

Notice, a bishop must be both blameless AND married to a wife. Carter's view differs on both counts. It doesn't say bishop CAN be an adulterer and CAN be a homosexual. Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, says a bishop is to be married to one wife. Obviously if he commits adultery, he has disqualified himself as pastor, something Carter doesn't get.

And if the argument is that Jesus did not condemn homosexuality, he also did not condemn rape, either, but it is obviously assumed He was against it because it violates so many other commandments given by God. And If Jesus and God are the same, then let us remember what God's view of homosexuality is:

Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Is it an Old Testament crime? Nope:

Romans 1:27 (in reference to those who've turned away from God who in return let them over to their unnatural lusts and perversions:)
"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and recieving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."

Let's look at Carter's view of homosexuality again:

"If that person [a homosexual] was demonstrating the essence of Christianity, I would not object to the individual being ordained."

DOes Carter's view of homosexuality comply with the Bible's view? Look at more of his own words here:

http://www.mindspring.com/~wtk3/carter.html
"Since almost all Protestants now condone divorce as an acceptable way of life and rarely mention fornication or adultery, it is much easier and more convenient for heterosexual Christians to focus on homosexuality, refusing to acknowledge that this is a sin never mentioned by Jesus."

Since the Trinity spells out that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three and one, they cannot disagree with each other (1 John 5:7.) Jesus says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." Therefore, Jesus is in agreement with everything I quoted from Leviticus. And since the Bible is inspired of God, what Paul wrote in Romans coincides perfectly with what God said and what Jesus confirmed.

So, does Carter's view of homosexuality jive with the Scriptures?

The answer is no. Therefore either the Bible is in error or Carter is in error. Since the Bible itself says it is inspired, it is Carter who is in error and needs to repent for he is a counterfeit.

Are you for Carter, Bartle, or are you for Christ? Here is what Galatians 1:10-11 says:

"For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man."

All the "wonderful" charities that Carter did means absolutely nothing if he did not bring anyone to Christ. So what is he proclaims Jesus as LORD? As he ever proclaimed him as THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN? Has Carter proclaimed Christ as the only source of truth? If he hasn't, his works are as filthy rags onto the LORD. (Isaiah 64:5)

I can also quote for you verbatim what he said about abortion, which does not differ from what I told you before, but it would only further my point.

Oh, and one more thing? Carter a peacemaker? Here is what Jesus said:

Mattheew 10:34
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

Jesus said His gospel would divide those who believe apart from those who do not. Carter wants Israel to negotiate and appease Islamic terrorists. If he was truly a Christian, he would have told the Islamic nations to accept Christ or else they would suffer the wrath of God for their idolatry, as opposed to having the Jewish people concede land and civilians to Islamic terrorists. He would also do less charity work and more gospel preaching, since the great commission is NOT feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and leading people to God (for Muslims think they are leading people to God, too.) This is what Bill Hybels of the Willow Creek Summit stressed, which is nothing but Roman Catholic doctrine in disguise. No, the great commission is to preach the gospel onto all creatures, that those who beleive will be saved, because those who do not will be damned onto all eternity in the lake of fire. In this aspect, Carter has failed as a Christian.

1 Corinthians 1:26-28

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

So today I suppose we need those who are wise by human standards and who are influential to come and share how we can use their wise and influential secular business models to lead our churches.

These are not the despised of the world - they are the esteemed of the world. And they do not fit into God's wisdom and ways.

Grace and peace
Olan

If you want to labour under that misassumption, do it, but's it wrong and you slander a man.

Not only do you slander a man, but you misappropriate and misuse Scripture to buttress your own wrong-headedness and sinful slander, quoting Matthew 10:34, entirely out of context.

Absolutely not, friend. There's a reason why I quoted the next few verses after that which you conveniently ommitted (not to mention the fact that you ignored the other scripture i posted, and did not bother to address the texts from Leviticus and Romans that Carter was clearly against.) Jesus clearly was stating that those who believe would be at odds with those who do not, and there would be separation and persecution over it. This coincides with what Christ said about a prophet not having any honor in his own home. Jesus was not to bring peace or unity, but rather division. This does not contradict Matthew 5:9. As you'll notice all throughout the New Testament, Jesus and the apostles all did their duty in peace, and the violence was brought upon by those who were the enemies of the Gospel. The Jews who handed Him over to the Roman government and the Roman soldiers who brutally persecuted Him all did so with Jesus never raising a hand. All HE did was spread the message of repentance and exlcusive path to Heaven by grace through faith in HIM alone. The same with the apostles who traveled to Macedonia in ACTS and were chased by the worshippers of Diana the goddess all because they peacefully preached the gospel of Christ, a gospel that said there was no other way to Heaven except through faith in Christ alone.

Also, you have no words for Carter's view on homosexuality? I gave you the exact quote directly fromhis mouth. No comments on that?

Did you know at the time of the Crusades there were 300,000 Jews still living in the what was Israel? oh yes, and in the Crusades they were wiped out. By the Muslims?

no, they were killed by the Crusaders, all sporting the Cross on their armor and their banners, and your "solution" is to tell the

They were killed by Roman Catholics loyal to the Pope who manipulated their emotions and sought land. Pope Urban has been traditionally thought to have given a rousing speech that ignited the Crusaders to war. Jesus said you can tell a false preacher by its fruits, and the Crusades was the fruit of the Catholic pope, who in case you forgot like to remind you that they are "vicars of Christ."

accept Christ or die...at whose hands?

At the judgement seat of Christ, of course, for He said:

"Go ye into the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16.)

Jude 5
"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."

Revelations 20:14-15
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

that statement is the spirit of anti-christ.

I'm sorry, friend, but you are decieved. According to Scripture, this is anti-christ spirit:

2 Corinthians 11:3-4
"BUt I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye recieve another spirit, which ye have not recieved, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

1 Timothy 4:1-2
"Now the Spirit peaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

1 Timothy 6:3-6
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not towholesome words even the wrods of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness. He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thsyelf."

1 John 2:3-6
"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Jude 4
"For there are certain men crept unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

I don't expect you to recant or repent from such wickedness, nor do I expect you to turn from your slander of me by questioning my walk with the Lord.

Bartle, your words have no effect on me. The fact that you did not choose to discuss head on the Biblical quotes I supplied that Carter was against showed me you are not able to discern or even analyze what I posted if I posted in error. The fact that you wouldn't go verse by verse with me shows that you are blinded by your emotions and loyalty to a man who is not Christ. I ask only that you read the Scriptures and search for any time any man who was a follower of Christ was lauded as one for doing charitable acts as opposed to spreading the Gospel so that those who believe will be saved.

I had previously pledged not to post on this thread again, and I ask my other brothers and sisters, and Greg and Mike to forgive me, but there is such a spirit of anti-christ and immmature slander in your post, I'm going to call you on it and urge you to repent from it.

Friend, the only way you can call me out on it is if you show me verse for verse how I took any of the scriptures out of context, and you must use Scripture also to do it. Otherwise, you have nothing to call me out on, really.

It's obvious Billy Hybel's Willow Creek gatherings is your cup of tea. No preaching on sin, no mention of the blood atonement, the victory on Calvary, the Great Commission- all of that is ignored and omitted in the emerging Church movement, which makes it easy for anyone to be judged by their good works and not whether or not they have faith in Christ alone. It's all just one big feel good theology where we all can get along and compromise our love for Christ since loving men is more rewarding.

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

WOW......

Do you guys know what?????

P. Diddy is a Christian. BORN AGAIN! Do you know why? Well he said in a song refering to Jesus "you have always been my best friend".....AND he helped Osbourne up from a fall at a party, PLUS he gave her a $40,000 rolex watch. This is proof enpough this man is born again!!!!

AND i am pleased to announce to everyone on this board that other stars have come to the Lord Jesus. Stars like Sisquo, Ma$e, Britney Spears, Christina Aguleria and many more....

I have proof of these other stars being Christian as well.....Christina Aguleria said "im a christian" to Rolling Stones and also prayed on video before performing her hit song "Dirty" on stage. Mase preaces at a prosperity gospel church and in his recent song said "i pop n--az in the head now they dead/ and the church hoes sing".......Sisquo thanked the Lord Jesus Christ for his award and also thanked "the thong".

ISNT this GREAT news family??? Are you not exited? And do you want more Good news? Well here it is........Bush is a christian and Osama clearly states he believes in God.......so does Nasrallah and also Senator Kerry.....hmmmmm.

BUT i have got better news to come........

ALL the people mentioned above are coming to a special, super dooper, awesome, mega conference called HELLS LAKE PLUMMIT CONFERENCE!!!!

oh man its going to be great.....hosted by the very man himself "Pope Benedict"!!!!!!!!

More special guests include Maddona, John Travolta and the man of the hour Mel Gibson.

THIS CONFERENCE will be like nothing before.......there will be free alchahol, hashish provided by Osama Bin Laden and the best of it all is "NO preaching from the bible"!!!!

Book you tickets NOW....only costs a small one of payment of "Signing your life over to Satan".

Why wait? Book NOW!

....................Sound far off? nah its what i am seeing spewing out of the United States at the moment!

May God rain down His justice on these wolves!!!! Oh that the redeemed may hear the Father voice and repent!!! oh that this insanity will cease!

ciao all

KrispyKrittr wrote:
What ever happened to us simply following Jesus and preaching and making disciples of all men... baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost?

Soon we will find out how frivilous we have been... Christians and churches alike.

Krispy

Hey Brother Krisp long time no see good to see your still kicking, man that what you asked is to simple you know us humans, we like to make things as complicated as possible, simple is no fun, anyone can win at simple hey you better get the gloves on if your posting on this thread. :-P

Take Care Brother I sure hope Little E makes it into the chase.

This is absolutely pathetic.

You who wish to pronounce [i]your[/i] judgement on hearts and cannot judge your own...

Take it somewhere else. This thread is locked due to your conduct. Pray that those who had attempted to discuss matters will forgive you.