The Pre-Trib Rapture

As with any error, the rapture teaching reads assumptions into the Word of God to attempt to make the Word support the position of error instead of the other way around.

Simply read John 6. 3 times Jesus says that on the last day, He will raise up believers, not pre-trip. 3 times, time specific, last day. There can only be one last day.

The first resurrection does not occur until the close of the tribulation, see Rev 20:1-5. Only those saints (church members) who died for their faith during the trib will be resurrected, along with those still alive and in the faith the close of the trip when Jesus comes the second time to rule and reign with them only, not the whole church age.

Consider the parable of the wheat and tares. Who is taken away and burned? The tares, not the wheat.

Two are standing in a field, one is taken the other left behind. Wrong assumption is that the righteous is taken away. The Word does not say either way.

I could go on and on, but to those who wish to believe a lie, it wont' matter. To those who are undecided, consider what the Word says, not what others tell you it says. (Acts 17:11)

Respectfully yours in Christ Jesus,

"O"

Hi Onesimus...

Onesimus4God wrote:
As with any error, the rapture teaching reads assumptions into the Word of God to attempt to make the Word support the position of error instead of the other way around.

It might not be wise to consider a doctrine or belief as controversial like this as an "error." There are many wonderful believers that have studied this matter intently and have come to a conclusion where they believe in a "rapture." There are others that are simply unsure, or are not completely certain enough to lay any sort of finality in their belief. As this topic has been discussed many times in the forums, it has sometimes led to sharp disagreements.

I believe that the Lord allows us the freedom to study these matters for ourselves and make our own determination as such. On some matters, the Word of God is completely clear. Yet on others, there is a lot of room for discussion and contemplation. It is often difficult to realize the difference between essential beliefs of Hebrews 6:1-3 -- and what is merely doctrinal speculation.

That being said, I personally lean toward a belief in a pre-trib "rapture." While I cannot say with absolute certainty, I feel that there is enough Scripture to at least consider the possibility. I like what Keith Green once said: "[i]Pray for Pre-Trib but prepare for Post-Trib[/i]."

:-)

Didn't mean to step on toes. But I shared with you simple truth, not suggestion and belief. If you can't trust the Word of God, well...that is very dangerous, as I understand it.

"O"

If you can't trust the Word of God, well...that is very dangerous, as I understand it.

Amen. I think why end times discussions are so varied is because you must have a revelation of the whole word of God to understand it. Most of the interpretations of end times events stem from a different understanding of the whole view of Scriptures.

Anyone can take a few verses and say, "see it's plainly there."

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, [u]I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation[/u], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may [u]be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,[/u] and to stand before the Son of man.

Dear Krispy,

I am not an authority on this topic. However, the writer does seem to miss a few things.

1. The Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

Indeed, the Church will be taken up before the time of God's wrath. This is made evident in many scriptures. However, the misconception many people have is that the tribulation is God's wrath. It is not. The tribulation is the tribulation of the Church. God's people will be refined by fire, so to speak. We will face immense persecution.

In Matthew 24:9 (NAS) Jesus is quoted as saying, "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."

Has there ever been a time in history when Christians were hated by "all nations?" Obviously, this time has yet to come. The Church has faced tribulation since our birth, however, the "great" tribulation will happen just before God executes His wrath.

Notice in Revelation 6:16-17 (the last scripture in Revelation 6), it speaks of the beginning of the God's wrath. At this point, God is about to execute and bring His wrath unto earth. However, when we move into Revelation 7, the time is postponed so that God's people may be gathered from every nation. In verse 14 of this verse, after the gathering of God's people, it says, "And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

In Christ,
Blake

Hi Krispy,

Went ahead and removed the other copy of this thread since Blake had copied over his reply (Thanks Blake!)

Yes indeed, I must have posted just as Krispy did. Lol. I suppose that is one of supporting my brother, to share in his afflictions.

After reading the responses, I must add I like the quote by Keith Green..."Hope for the rapture, but prepare for tribulation activity."

I would have to say, however, if any person truly believed that we should be prepared for tribulation activity, wouldn't they warn others of the tribulation?

Just a thought,

Blake

I'll be happy to sound the alarm. I have in other places. I believe with all my heart that the church will be here during the tribulation period and many will suffer and die for thier faith. I believe that is what the bible teaches. Otherwise, the saints mentioned in the Revelation would not be members of the church, since the church is already gone.
See, we get all mixed up in disagreement when we try to read in more than is there. If we would simply look at what scripture says, the whole plan outline is rather simple. How it all will work out is not simple.
When Israel signs a peace treaty with the Arabs, set your 7 year clock to ticking. It's underway, regardless of biblical interpretation. God's Word will come to pass as He says it will.
Our dearly departed brother Green was exactly correct. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I don't think many are prepared, because of the "rapture" teaching that so many herald as truth in this hour. That is why it frustrates me so much and why it is so very alarming. They are not ready when their cash fails. They are not prepared to die and/or watch family members die rather than take the mark of the beast. Why? Because they are taught continually that the rapture will take them out of here.
Not long ago, I was listening to a southern gospel music countdown. Over half the songs played that day were about the rapture. Who would benefit most from a church unprepared? Satan of course. Who would benefit least from a church prepared to forsake all for the Gospel? Satan of course.
In order for the deception to come, someone has to be decieved. These are church folks. So not all are smart, nor well informed. They do not take time to search the scriptures daily to see if these things be so. They would rather believe what they are told as "gospel". Since appeals to the flesh, it is satisfying. Well, they are in for a huge disappointment.
Again, I listed some very simple texts, easy to read and understand. Jesus said He would raise believers on the last day. There can only be one last day, that being at the end of the mellinual reign of Jesus with those who gave their lives during the trib. They are resurrected just before the millineum starts, in the "first resurrection". There can only be one "first resurrection. It happens when Jesus comes, the 2nd time. He can only come the second time one time. That is clearly at the end of the trib. Read Rev 19. It's quite simple and all fits if you believe what the bible says. If not, there will always be dispute and discord. Why? Because some find it easier to be spoon fed than to hunger for meat. That is their privilege. But all will have to endure the consequences of such a grave error.

Selah and shalom,

"O"

To those who believe in a post-trib rapture, i have a question.

What did Jesus mean when He said "I come quickly", and "No man knows the day or the hour", and "Watch, for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come", and that He's coming as a "thief in the night".

If the rapture will be at the end of the tribulation period, which we know will last 7 years, how is it that we should be watching for Him? If the rapture is post-trib, then we do know the day, because it will be seven years after the tribulation begins.

Not trying to defend pre-trib, just trying to clarify something here.

Also, concerning what the dear Keith Green said about "Pray for pre-trib, prepare for the tribulation". That's good advice, but shouldn't we also be preparing for a pre-tibulation rapture also? Jesus said "Be ye ready".

If the rapture will be at the end of the tribulation period, which we know will last 7 years, how is it that we should be watching for Him? If the rapture is post-trib, then we do know the day, because it will be seven years after the tribulation begins.

That's assuming we can discern exactly the events of the bible in real life. Most of biblical prophecy is written in such a way that we can only guess as to which events match the actual events in real life.

It wasn't until after Jesus died, and came back, that He could explain all the prophecy about His death and life in OT scripture. I am sure we won't know until after it actually happens that we will say, "Oh yeah, now I see."

In love,
Blake

Have I entered the jihad on trib doctrine page?

Thanks for your stance "O"
The best argument for pre-trib is the good ole "Why would a loving God let his church suffer." These people have totally lost all reality with scripture if God won't let His Church suffer. Like none of the apostles suffered :)

Actually, post-trib here. I wasn't raised in the church so I don't have a lot of hangups. Now don't go sayin I'm bashing you all pre-trib people.

Post trib is clearly seen in Mt 24...the bible states that Jesus will return "after the tribulation of those days."

Beyond this Tribulation is the wrath of satan, the vials and armageddon is wrath of God. All reference to tribulation is 3.5 years (42 months, times + time + 1/2 time, the the equivalent in days). No such thing as 7 year trib.

I have stepped on a number of toes here from time to time, and I just want to offer some advise on how to avoid doing that. I learned the hard way.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
But who am I? Just another nut who has lost touch with reality... right?

Krispy

LOL...sorry, but that just cracked me up. :-P

My church teaches pre-trib rapture. I have reserved judgment for lack of wisdom on my part.

I also agree with Keith Green, pray for pre-trib, but prepare for post...

If the rapture will be at the end of the tribulation period, [b]which we know will last 7 years[/b], how is it that we should be watching for Him? If the rapture is post-trib, then we do know the day, because it will be seven years after the tribulation begins.

Hello brethren, I just wanted to ask how we know the "Tribulation" will last 7 years? Also, I lovingly challenge you to respond with scripture that is not from Daniel 9:27.
It would seem quite a shaky doctrine to be held so tightly if there is no real clear cut Scriptural basis for it.
I think many have read too much into one verse and built a whole fantastic, very scholarly sounding Eschatology. Yet it just does not hold much water.
This is not to debate or argue, simply to ask why, and sharpen a little iron, and be sharpened myself.
Blessings in the name of our Lord

Dear brothers and sisters:

To me the timing of the rapture is not a matter of "fellowship." But I also know that for some it is. I must state that I at one time did believe the timing of the rapture was pre-trib. But I also must now say that I am neither pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. I am pre-wrath. I was taught pre-trib but my mind was changed by the Word of God, especially through Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2. In a pre-wrath viewpoint the "knowing the day or the hour" is still impossible. I believe that the Bible makes a distinction between the tribulation (including the great tribulation) and the Day of the Lord. I believe that the Bible teaches that the tribulation and great tribulation are the wrath of the devil (see Revelation 12:12) and that the Day of the Lord (which in the Bible is always preceded by cosmic disturbances) is the wrath of God (see Revelation 6:12-17).
http://www.devcobaptist.org/clientimages/31831/prophecyofthekingsgloriousreturn-1.wma

Grace and peace
Olan

What did Jesus mean when He said "I come quickly", and "No man knows the day or the hour", and "Watch, for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come", and that He's coming as a "thief in the night".

Brother, these verses came to my mind:

[b]4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/b]
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Why do people insist on 7 year trib?

Rev 12:9-14:
Verse 9--Satan cast out of heaven
Verse 11--trib
Verse 12--why trib? satan coming with great wrath knows he doesn't have much time. This is the verse that explains trib is the wrath of satan!
Verse 14--how much time? time (1yr) and times (2yrs) and half a time (0.5 years)--3.5 years total.

Rev 13:4-9:
verse 5: how long? 42 months. How many years is that? 3.5 years. Who? The beast speaking of the anti-christ.
verse 7: what's he going to do? make war with the saints (church) and overcome them.

Daniel 7:21-27:
Verse 21: Anti-Christ will war w/ saints (church) until…
Verse 22: Jesus comes and saints (church) possess kingdom
Verse 25: Anti-Christ shall be a royal pain for time (1yr) times (2yr) and dividing of time (0.5years)—3.5 years. Afterwhich…
Verse 27: His dominion will be taken away and kingdom given to saints (church)

Daniel 12:1-9:
Verse 1: Time of trouble = great tribulation
Verse 2-3: Rapture
Verse 6: How long will all this take?
Verse 7: time, times, half time (3.5 years)

Other scriptures deal with 70th week or 70th seven. Which is a week of years or 7 years. In the middle of that week the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice in the temple, which event Jesus said would start the great trib.

Other scriptures deal with 70th week or 70th seven. Which is a week of years or 7 years. In the middle of that week the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice in the temple, which event Jesus said would start the great trib.

Maybe you could look into the opinions of men like Wesley, Spurgeon, Henry, Barnes. These all say that the 70th week of Daniel 9 was completed.
How you ask?
Start with the date of the decree to rebuild 457 B.C. now we have 49 years or 7 weeks which brings us to 408 B.C. now there are 434 years or 62 weeks which brings us to 26 A.D.
What happened then? Jesus came, and John cried out "Behold the lamb of GOD which taketh away the sin of the world" and Jesus was anointed/baptized which fulfills "the anointing of the most Holy"
So we are left with 7 years or one week. Some would say that a twothousand year leap of faith has come, yet there is nothing in Scripture to support that. So we look at events from 26 A.D.
So 31/2 years after the anointing Messiah was "cut off". Therefore we have one period of 3 1/2 years left. Now we must remember that this prophecy was to Daniel's people who were Jews, so Jesus confirmed "the Covenant" as it says in the King James and put an end to sacrifice etc. because there remanis no more sacrifice for sin, and HE did away with the sacrificial sysytem by HIS perfect sacrfice. The last part is the period where the Gospel was given to the Jews in Jerusalem and culminates in the rejection of Messiah and stoning of Stephen in Acts 7.
Let's discuss :-)

roaringlion, never heard those idears before. Intersting thoughts. I'll have to consider.

No doubt Jesus' sinless sacrifice took care of the need for sacrificial systems. His perfect sacrifice finished it all.

However, is Daniel 9:26-27 talking about Jesus or the antichrist taking away the sacrifice? I would say antichrist:

1. Jesus preached Abomination of desolation as future...no doubt this was before His sacrifice. This is more for preterist viewpoint.

2. See Daniel 11:31 for crystal clarity on who commits abominatio of desolation and also Mt 24:15 and 2 Thess. 2:4. These just have not happened.

Ah yes the "abomination". But did that not take place in 70 A.D. when Titus and crew destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple?
It seems that the Daniel 9 passage that many use to support a 7 year tribulation is very obscure, and much has to be inserted to make it work. Granted we should not use prophecy as a basis for dividing as some have done.
Just some thoughts. May I suggest a wonderful site you could poke around with, it has been a blessing to me and the brother who does it is very patient in answering questions as well.
[url=http://www.revelation-illustrated.com/]Revelation Illustrated[/url]
Blessings to you

Your making me dizzy...first no preterism now preterism.

Well if you take Titus as antichrist then yes. But I don't see Jesus anywhere. If you see Him I'd sure like to worship before Him. Thing is Preterism is a catholic doctrine that was invented by Jesuits to give them an out....too many people where leaving Catholicism (and rightfully so) because Rome is the city of seven hills...or mystery babylon. Commonly was taught that pope was antichrist...which isn't true. But droves of people left...so what does a system do to retain control of it's subjects. Create something new to fill the gap..like caulk.

Trust me, I'm not a praetorist. I despise the idea of it as it was inspired by the army of the R.C. Church. I would say if I had to define this view, which is not new, it is Historicist.
I don't lay claim to being absolute on this, it just seems to make more sense than a two thousand year stoppage of the prophecy clock inserted by man. If there was gap, would not our GOD who makes things very clear have told us?

One thing that amazes me is the hostility toward pre-tribbers from post-tribbers.

Hey Krispy,

Your statement made me chuckle. You know very well that the same can be said from the other side. Remember the rapture site we both were members of? ;-) I must say that there was MUCH hostility against my post trib views there (even though they had a special thread just for differing viewpoints). Many pre-tribbers were pleasant to discuss differences with, however, there are some who were quite nasty and venomous in their responses. I think that is a reflection more of what is lacking in their walk than it is a reflection of who's right/who's wrong doctrinally.

I remember many times being told that I was a device of the devil for taking away people's "Blessed Hope". You have to understand that for those of us who used to believe pre-trib and now see post-trib----this IS a doctrine we see that can be very troublesome/dangerous in the "church".....not because it can divide, but because it is seen by many of us as a doctrine which falsely gives a hope of rescue---a hope that God does not give to those who follow Him.

The Blessed Hope is that He WILL Come and we WILL see Him as He is and we WILL be like Him(Col. 3:4, Titus 2:12-14, II Thess. 1:4-10). The Blessed Hope is NOT in the timing of His coming. Also, the Blessed Hope is for ALL true believers in Christ, not just for a select group of believers.

You well know, from the website I've spoken of, that MANY place their trust it seems, more in the timing of His Coming, than in His Coming and their present walks (Titus 2:12, I Jn. 2:28-29). They believe themselves to be the church in Philadelphia, yet they can't see that the majority of the Western Church in no way, shape, or form looks like the Church described in Rev. 3:7-13. Instead,it looks very much like the church of Laodicea.

The truth is that prior to the 1800's, the Church of Jesus Christ never taught a pre-trib gathering of the saints to heaven. What the early church as well as reformation church taught was that the TRUE Church would suffer under anti-christ until the coming of the Lord in Glory and judgment----then the saints of God would be rescued/delivered and the world judged.

The newer teachings on His coming(pre-trib rapture, mid-trib rapture, multiple raptures, etc), I believe, cannot be biblically supported----especially when one has a firm grasp on WHO is the Church/Body of Christ. When one understands this, one cannot do anything but believe that when He comes, it will be to gather together ALL that are in Him---the living and the dead(I Thess. 1:10, II Thess. 2:1, James 5:7, Mt. 24:30-31, Mk 13:27, I Thess. 4:14-15, Acts 3:19-21, Eph. 4:4-6)). That cannot happen at a pre-trib rapture, unless one believes that those who may come to faith during a "trib" time are not members of the Body of Christ. Personally, I don't see anywhere in scripture where God separates believers into different "camps".......one camp being the "church" and the other camp being "trib saints"..........if one is a "saint"--in Christ, they ARE a member of the Church/Body of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23, Col. 1:18). :-)

The Blessed Hope is that He WILL Come and we WILL see Him as He is and we WILL be like Him(Col. 3:4, Titus 2:12-14, II Thess. 1:4-10). The Blessed Hope is NOT in the timing of His coming. Also, the Blessed Hope is for ALL true believers in Christ, not just for a select group of believers.

Amen to that.

The truth is that prior to the 1800's, the Church of Jesus Christ never taught a pre-trib gathering of the saints to heaven.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

What the early church as well as reformation church taught was that the TRUE Church would suffer under anti-christ until the coming of the Lord in Glory and judgment----then the saints of God would be rescued/delivered and the world judged.

"But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. [b] God hath not appointed us to wrath[/b] but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:8, 9

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
[b]I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation[/b], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[b]Behold, I come quickly[/b], hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."Rev 3:10, 11

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I know many use this verse to substantiate a pre-trib view, but the word "keep" means guard.
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.
So in essence, because they had held to and guarded the word, they themselves would be held and guarded.
There is an O.T. illustration of this
Exo 9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Exo 9:2 For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still,
Exo 9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.
Exo 9:4 And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.
Exo 9:5 And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land.
Exo 9:6 And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and [b]all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one. [/b]
Exo 9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.
Then again in Exodus
Exo 11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
Exo 11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
Exo 11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
Exo 11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
GOD can keep HIS people through HIS judgement, just as Noah was not delivered out of the flood, but through it.
As for the other verse, it says we are not "appointed to wrath, but unto salvation". Yet if we follow the pre-trib teaching on the matter of tribulation saints who go through wrath, were they appointed to wrath? Are we better than they even though the Scriptures declare that GOD is no respecter of persons? Or could this simply mean that we're not appointed to wrath as in GOD is not willing that any should perish ?
Questions to ponder.......

Hi Joe,

What do you make of Ephraem's section 10:

"Section X
And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever. "

God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:8, 9

Absolutely, but that applies to ALL Christians, not just Christians before a time of tribulation. It is Jesus Christ Himself who spares all from His Wrath who in the past, present, AND future, abide in Him (Jn. 3:36). Also to note, when God's wrath or judgments fall on the wicked, it does not mean we have to disappear for the wrath/judgments not to hurt us. The Israelites in Egypt are a perfect example of Him "keeping"(guarding from loss or injury) His children through HIS wrath.

Jesus spoke of this same "keeping from" while still being upon the earth--Jn. 17:15, regarding the Father protecting His disciples from the enemy.

it says we are not "appointed to wrath, but unto salvation". Yet if we follow the pre-trib teaching on the matter of tribulation saints who go through wrath, were they appointed to wrath? Are we better than they even though the Scriptures declare that GOD is no respecter of persons? Or could this simply mean that we're not appointed to wrath as in GOD is not willing that any should perish ?

Yes, I too have pondered these questions and the answers, I believe biblical, led me to change my stance. Jesus speaks these things: "All the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jn. 37......and----"those whom the Father gave me, I will in no wise lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day ".......Jn. 6:39.... and---- "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn. 6:44

Who is the "all"?

God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:8, 9

This is indeed, I believe, the crux of the matter. How one views "wrath" will determine his or her eschatology. If one sees the entire tribulation as the wrath of God then he or she will be pre-trib. If one sees the last half of the tribulation as the wrath of God then he or she will be mid-trib. If one sees the end of the tribulation as the wrath of God then he or she will be post-trib. If one sees the Day of the Lord (which takes place when the Lord cuts the great tribulation short) as the wrath of God then he or she will be "pre-wrath."

If the entire tribulation is the wrath of God then the pre-trib camp is right. If the last half of the tribulation is the wrath of God then the mid-trib camp is right. If the end of the tribulation is the wrath of God then the post-trib camp is right. And if the Day of the Lord (which takes place when the Lord cuts the great tribulation short) is the wrath of God then the pre-wrath camp is right.

All are right about one thing - The King is coming! Make that two things - And we have been and will be saved from the wrath of God through the King! (Romans 5:9)

Grace and peace
Olan

I liked how you summarized that Olan.
I haven't studied this in a long time but
i have been 'post-trib/pre-wrath'. Like
ya'll have said, its definately something not
to argue and cause division. There are probably 'pre-trib' people on this board that are more righteous then me. That would be more important. Actually, i don't
mind to be wrong on this if you know what i mean :)....My take was that the GT is actually 'Satan's wrath' for 3 1/2 years, then the Day of the Lord is God's wrath. Hence, post-trib/pre-wrath. Resurrection at the last trump (7th trump), after the last trump ends the Wrath begins with the bowls. (Rev 16)

Understanding that each view point of the timing of the rapture allows for the removal of the church before "God's wrath" is essential to fellowship because each "camp" is saying the same thing - "the church will not endure the wrath of God but will be saved from it." So the necessary component of a discussion of the timing of the rapture (not talking about its day or hour) is a scriptural definition of and between the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. This calls for proper exegesis - rightly dividing the Word of truth.

We then can enter into Christian dialogue and search the scriptures to see if these things are so - being open to correction and to affirmation where the Word of the Lord gives either.

For example:

The Great Tribulation is expressly called the day of God's wrath. Today the Lord is withholding His anger; He is seated upon a throne of grace, but the day approaches when He will take the seat of judgment. Then "the day of his wrath" will be upon all the world (Ps. 110:5; Isa. 13:6-13; Rev. 6:16-17).

Psalm 110:5 - "The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the
[i]day of His wrath[/i]. That in no wise declares that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God - it only establishes the truth that there is coming a "day of His wrath."

Isaiah 13:6-13 - This text not only does not prove that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God but actually proves that it is not. The day of the Lord (which is the day of God's wrath) both in the Old Testament and the New Testament is always preceded by cosmic disturbances. Isaiah 6:10-11 - "For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; the sun will be dark when it rises and the moon will not shed its light. [i]Thus I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud and abase the haughtiness of the ruthless[/i]." This isn't the beginning of the tribulation or the great tribulation - this is the beginning of the day of the Lord (God's wrath) and it doesn't happen until the Great Tribulation is cut short (See Matthew 24:22-31)

Revelation 6:16-17 - speaks of the wrath of the Lamb (ie, the wrath of God) and if you back up and begin with verse 12 and following, the same signs (sun, moon, and stars) precede the wrath of the Lamb.

If anything the Bible teaches that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan not the wrath of God. Revelation 12:12 - "...Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, [i]having great wrath[/i], knowing that he has only a short time."

According to Christ Himself, the Day of the Lord (God's wrath) wouldn't begin until He cut the Great Tribulation short - "But immediately after the tribulation of those days..." (Matthew 24:29). By the way, the rapture is seen in verse 31!

If anyone would like, maybe we can take a look at various view points one by one and hold them up to the light of Scripture and see whether they stand or fall.

Grace and peace
Olan

Just read and write between the lines. Get the Word to say what you want it too. Tragic.

"O"