Satan and hell

Jake, Jake, Jake!I am not going to talk down to you, but I must word this strongly because the ideas you presented must be corrected firmly and immediately. These are issues that many bring up as they learn of salvation, but do not let them become strong doubts! If Christianity were as unreasonable as many make it out to be there wouldn't be such a great history of brilliant men in the faith."Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven" is the old saying that is based on your same misconception. You have learned that Satan reigns in hell by watching Loony Tunes, not by reading Scripture or the classics of the saints. Satan will not preside over or rule in hell. He will be a captive in at least as much eternal torment as the others there. Hell will not be his kingdom but his eternal defeat and punishment. I am sure that many there will know that he is a reason that they are there and scream curses at him for eternity. There will be no parties in hell, no rock-n-roll, no sex, not a single joy. One passage of Scripture leads us to believe that one of the worst parts of hell will be having strong desires and passions but never getting any satisfaction or relief. Imagine all your fleshly appetites at their peak at once and nothing to even take the edge off and multiply that by a million.Scripture teaches that in the end once we see the judgement and have the wisdom of heaven we will praise God's holiness for casting the unsaved into hell. We will not be mourning for them or crying out about injustice- we will be praising a God that is infinitely higher and above the millions of people He raised up from the dust of the earth.Scripture also seems to teach that there will be various levels of punishment in hell. Some will have it better than others.You must not think of God being responsible for damning people. He created us in perfection and it was through our sin that we fell away. In His grace and mercy He is saving a remnant! We should all go there but for His compassion and desire to have a love gift of a redeemed humanity to forever worship His Son. If one cannot imagine an eternity of worshipping a King as heavenly then that person had better do some serious rethinking about starting to follow Christ. It is better to never begin than to start and go back!Finally there is one attribute of God to remember above the rest. God is love, God is just, but Scripture calls Him Holy, Holy, Holy! That is the only time Scripture uses the third degree of repetition to emphasize an attribute of God. That is significant.

I don't have any particular points in scripture that support what I wrote;Then your views are nothing more than conjecture, the wisdom of man. I'll take the wisdom and truth of God over that any day, even if it is much more uncomfortable to swallow.I wish there was no hell, no eternal punishment; but to believe that would be a denial of the Word of God(see Greg's list of Scriptures) and I can't do that.To believe that God is too good to condemn anyone to eternal hell is what the Holy Spirit called - through the prophet Isaiah - a 'refuge of lies'(see chapter 28). God is merciful and compassionate beyond human comprehension but He is also perfectly holy, righteous and just. The rejection of His infinite and eternal love shown on the cross of Calvary demands infinite and eternal punishment.In Christ,Ron

Jake,The New Testament teaching on hell is not as simplistic as you thought. Even references to hell are not that frequent (interestingly, both "heaven" and "hell" did not have too many direct references, in contrast to the evangelical lingo).The words "Hades" (in Greek) and "Sheol" (in Hebrew) are often translated hell. However, the biblical usage of these words seems to refer more of a temporary holding place for souls of the unbelievers before the Lord's second coming.The conventional idea of "hell" as a place of torment for those condemned to eternal perdition seems more in line with the "lake of fire" in the Revelation. That phrase did not appear too many times in the NT.Some might argue that the "outer darkness" (where the gnashing of teeth and weeping takes place) is yet to be distinguished from Hades and the lake of fire. Finally, regardless of terminology, the Scripture discuss even less about what it means to be in "eternal perdition."I know one thing for sure, hell is not a place I want to end up in.

Funny that you say you've read the whole Bible except for Revelation because the concept you're tripping over happens to be clearly stated near the end of Revelation in chapter 20.Satanic Rebellion Crushed (1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[2] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[4] 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.Now many things in Revelation are tough to interpret and symbolic, etc, but I propose that this section couldn't be much clearer or contrued to mean anything other than what it clearly states. One might try to argue that only the beast, false prophet, and Satan are said to be there forever and then the people are cast in for an indefinite period. I believe that there will be no exiting because the story of Lazarus and the rich man talks about a chasm being fixed between heaven and hell that no one can cross. Also there is no mention of any permanent destruction of the people or any escape. Furthermore, I don't expect that eternity is much like our space-time universe in that I don't think there will be so-called time. We will exist in the states of heaven and hell for eternity. There will be no clock that says "Oh boy, time to let the damned out of the lake of fire!" I don't view eternity as a long time so much the absence of time.

Jake wrote:I am considering that God is infinitely merciful... There are many who want to believe that God is this, and that God is love. Many ask these same eternal questions. Many choose to believe that God's love for His creation far outweighs anything that might deserve God's wrath. I hear this often. I also heard an evangelist, Ray Comfort, preach to this thought. He spoke to a certain individual who professed the same belief. He quoted from Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods before Me." Ray Comfort said in effect, when we choose to hold onto an image of God that does not conform to Scripture, we in effect create our own god. And thus break the first commandment. Ananias and Sapphira met God on His terms.In ChristJeff

In a conversation between R W Dale and Campbell Morgan, R W Dale told Campbell Morgan that he had known one man who, he felt, had perfect right to talk about Hell, and that man was D L Moody. He stated that the reason he so felt was that he never heard Moody refer to Hell without tears in his voice.Horation Bonar once told Murray McCheyne that he had preached on the text "and the wicked shall be turned into hell".. "and did you preach it with tears" asked McCheyne.C H Spurgeon ""If sinners be dammed, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for."

If I could imagine hell as the worse state a man can be in, it would something like this...- To know the fullness of the love of God through Christ whom they have rejected.- To know what it is like to be in His presence, yet never being able to enter it.- To have a revelation of the greatness of their sin and wanting to repent yet unable to ever receive forgiveness."and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born." Zec 12:10

Hi AlexisI think you are on the right track. I believe in a real hell, but one of the most poignant comments I ever heard was an 18th century Christian who said "hell is truth seen too late"

I believe that the worst torment of hell will be remembering what it was like to stand before the Lord of all majesty and glory at the judgment seat, and then to be separated from Him for all eternity. In Christ,Ron

Hi allJake wrote my conception of hell is not in conflict with ScripturesWhat is hell like? I'll add one or two comments in the next few posts. I have quoted Jake above because I believe the scriptures are designed to give us a 'conception of hell'. If we try to integrate every detail of the scripture revelation we may well lose the big picture. Not that I am saying we should't discuss the details, but if we can get the right overview the details will not distract us.So I repeat my question, 'what is hell like?' I am presuming that most people who ask that question do not have carefully defined answers for sheol, gehenna or tartarus. We may come to that later, but in general terms what is this 'ultimate state' like?. The way the Bible speaks of the other 'ultimate state' may help us here.Some while ago I wrote a very simple little tract called 'What is heaven like?'. It asks seven questions about heaven and tries to give some answers. It may help some to get a feel for the way the Bible speaks of these 'ultimate states', then we can return some of those details.I hope its simplicity will not offend the more sophisticated members of our forum. :-P

Jesus told us to love our enemies. This is where I get the dissonance from. If Jesus (God's Son and the One who will judge us all) commands us to love those who hate us, how can He send anybody to an everlasting burning in Hell? This is contradictory.I don't think that this is true...if someone has spent their entire life saying basically "God I don't need you, and don't want anything to do with you." then to violate their free will by forcing them into his presence and service for all eternity would be cruel.

Man was never intended for hell. It was specifically prepared for 'the devil and his angels'. Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:But if a man will not leave Satan's cause he must share Satan's destiny.

Ron (philologos) said,Man was never intended for hell.I completely agree -- we were created for fellowship with God, to glorify Him.But if a man will not leave Satan's cause he must share Satan's destiny.Well said.

Philologos,I think you are right when you used the terminology consisting "ultimate state." The conventional idea of "heaven" and "hell" certainly are referring to the two possible ultimate destinies that humankind must face.I think the terminology of "heaven" and "hell" is not that precise though; it impedes further understanding of these concepts. The idea that we will be up in heaven floating around in the air with a harp in hand is certainly wrong! Recently, I heard Dr. Paul Stevens from Regent College said, "You will not find Paul Stevens in heaven. You will find Paul Stevens in the new heaven and new earth." That sounds shocking, but is probably the more biblical way to put it.

Hi allthis is my own quote but it makes a good start for this post. But if a man will not leave Satan's cause he must share Satan's destiny.In developing a concept of 'what hell is like' and seeing that the rebels must share the Rebels's destiny, we can begin to get a feel for things. The title of this thread is perfect. Satan and hell; they are inextricably connected.In Isaiah 14 we have a prophecy which begins on the earthly level but moves to other levels. Some of this certainly applied to the King of Babylon, but most of it applies to the power behind the throne. We can see that in the way it begins to speak of one who has 'fallen from heavens' v12.The picture behind this passage is of a prison. We should never think of hell as a kingdom. Hell is a prison and Satan is the 'Ace of Spades'; he will be its chief prisoner. The passage speaks of other prisoners watching with amazement as the origin of all their woes is brought down to their level "art thou become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"We are then given a glimpse into the heart of Satan; I presume that the thought came before the deed. God knew what was in his heart and it is revealed here as a fivefold manifesto of rebellion of Satan's heart decision. 1. I will ascend into the heavens.2. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God3. I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north4. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;and finally the ultimate blasphemy5. I will be like the most high.The last goal was one he fed into the human race later; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.Let me paraphrase the list in language which will make my point; not Thy will, but mine be done. and it is followed by the judgment that must await all who rebel and set their intention to be equal with God in defiance of His truth; Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."I will go up, up, up, up, up," "Thou shalt be brought down."We see here an archetype of the ancient sin that has affected all our race; I will not have anyone telling me how to live my life. In the final analysis there are just two options; crown Him or crucify Him. Bow to Him or fight Him. Yield or defy. There is never a third option. Those who set themselves to defy Him and who will not respond to His loving cure are re-enacting that moment in history when the world said 'no' to God and expressed it in the words 'crucify him'. If they persist in that and do not take advantage of his gracious amnesty, they must share Satan's destiny. Thou shalt be brought down to hell.If they choose to remain on his side they must inevitably receive his sentence. This sentence was never intended for human beings but if they will not leave Satan's cause they must share Satan's destiny.

Hi Ron,Excellent tract! So much easier to understand than the rules of 'cricket' ;-) Loved this line "Don't try to paint this picture, feel it"I do feel it, in my bones.That longing, longing to go home.

Hi Agent001you wrote Recently, I heard Dr. Paul Stevens from Regent College said, "You will not find Paul Stevens in heaven. You will find Paul Stevens in the new heaven and new earth." That sounds shocking, but is probably the more biblical way to put it.As well as 'ultimate states' we have something called the 'intermediate state' which is why I used that kind of language. The intermediate has to do with what happens when we leave this life but prior to the 'ultimate state'. We've had a couple of threads on that line from time to time. If I were pedantic.. who me? Even when John has seen the new heaven and the new earth he sees a city coming 'down' from heaven, and then this city which seems to be established on the new earth becomes the setting for the river and the throne of God, and God is with His people. This is pretty much 'heaven on earth'. Reading the last chapter of Revelation makes the separation between heaven and earth a very slender thing.What can all this mean? I think it means that everything becomes integrated again. With the physical and the spiritual no longer separated in either/or. I think John is beginning to see the mystery that Paul referred to in 1 Cor 15:28 when God becomes all in all.It all links with our theme of Satan and hell. Once, in the entire universe, there was one will, then Satan opposed it and there were two. His rebellion was fed into the human race and then there were many, but God sent His Son to bring it back to the original. The theme of his sacrifice was not two wills but one; and when He has completed His task all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.You understand? me neither. Wonderful isn't it?Salvation is being restored to harmony with the will of God, everything else is a by-product.

um... im suprised this hasn't come up yet... but God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. (maybe i just didn't see it) Christ doesn't want anyone to go to hell. Why would Christ do what He did? so that people would still go to hell? no.Why has He given us a passion to serve Him and reach the lost?

This is really a continuation of my post on this thread on 26 Jan 2004, where I said’In developing a concept of 'what hell is like' and seeing that the rebels must share the Rebel's destiny, we can begin to get a feel for things. The title of this thread is perfect. Satan and hell; they are inextricably connected.The second of these extraordinary passages is in Ezekiel 28. In Ezekiel 28 we have a prophecy which begins on the earthly level but moves to other levels. Some of this certainly applied to the Prince of Tyrus, but most of it applies to the power behind the throne. We can see that in the way it begins to speak of one who had been in Eden v13. If you check your memory for a head count of people who had been in Eden, you’ll find in narrows the suspects down considerably. ;-)This passage of scripture seems to describe someone of amazing beauty. Surely this must be the greatest creature in the creation. It speaks of every precious stone being thy covering and then goes on to list 9 of them. This list is identical to the list of stones that the Levitical high-priest wore on his breastplate; except that the high-priest had 3 extra ones. It then goes on to describe his musical instruments and then says that God appointed him as The Anointed Cherub, the Covering One. This is very mysterious and we need to be cautious in our interpretation. The world of angelic beings and the world of human beings intersect like two circles. The Bible is really the true story of the human race, and all we are told about the angelic race is from that intersection where our worlds touch. We are quite ignorant of the angels’ story. I would not even like to guess at the percentage of truth that we are given about them; I suspect it is tiny.But this passage of prophecy has been kept safe for us for over 2500 years so God must want us to understand something from it. The language used may give us some clues. We usually call Israel’s chief priest, the high priest, but the scripture frequently called him the anointed one; Lev 4:3, Num 35:25. This is a reference to the appointment of a high-priest. Lev 8 shows us that only the high-priest was truly anointed; the other priests shared his anointing with oil that was not poured (anointed) but sprinkled. The Anointed Cherub with a covering of precious stones seems to hint at a creature who is at the very heart of the worship of God; the leader. Here is another interesting link. In Israel’s priesthood there were originally 5 priests; one anointed priest and 4 who served under his direction (under Aaron’s eye). Ezekiel and Revelation speak of an angelic order of beings called Cherubs (or Hebrew Cherubim). I think they are the same as the ‘burning ones’ – Seraphim of Isaiah 6) From Ezekiel, Isaiah and Revelation we discover there are 4 of them. From Ezekiel 28 it appears there were once 5, and their leader was the Anointed Cherub, the one who ‘covered’ the others. This begins to sound like some angelic priesthood.Satan's rebellion is captured in Isaiah 14, in which the thoughts of his heart were revealed. Here in Ezekiel we are taken back even further to events which preceded his rebellion. Isaiah 6 shows the cherubim lost in worship. In the presence of God they have very little to say, but they say it continuously. It is not a ritual, it is their continuing reaction at being in the presence of the Holy God. One cries to another; Holy, Holy, Holy, and the next one conscious of God’s presence worships using the same words. Rev 4 shows us that 800 years later they were still saying the same words. This is still their reaction; they can never become ‘used to being in His presence’. (aren’t you looking forward to joining them?)The Bible refers to ‘holy angels’ but these most ‘holy’ of the holy angels are oblivious to their own holiness, they are overwhelmed with His. This is always the way with genuine holiness; genuinely holy people will never think or talk about their own holiness. There is no self-consciousness in this worship, only God-consciousness. And here is an amazing revelation. At a point in time one of these cherubim, the anointed one, became self-conscious. I don’t know how it happened, but it did. Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty. Ezek 28:17. How did he ever notice it? To what would we compare this? It is like someone attending the most lavish banquet possible with vast arrays and varieties of perfect provision and a glorious and generous host at the head of the table, who in the midst of it all says “boy, have you seen my peanut? Oh I know that some good stuff here, but just look at this peanut. I think this peanut deserves some recognition.” Everybody else is overwhelmed with the Host and the banquet, and this one becomes obsesses with his peanut. He didn't even stop to consider who gave him the peanut in the first place! It’s a poor illustration, but I wanted to get some sense of the enormity of Satan’s presumption. He has separated himself from God and His provision and the slide has started.This post is far too long. My apologies, I’ll give a day or two to digest it and then return to this rank wickedness and its ultimate consequences.

This post is far too long.I emphatically diagree!Feels like watching a rare but good program on t.v., you become fully absorbed, then out of nowhere...."To be continued....." "Ah, man..." This is still their reaction; they can never become ‘used to being in His presence’. (aren’t you looking forward to joining them?)Can't wait!

A little more to consider…The underlying principle of these comments on Satan and Hell is that these two subjects are irrevocably connected. The ‘ultimate state’ of punishment and separation from God is said to have be Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matt 25:41This sentence has several ideas built into it.a. depart: this is separation from Godb. ye cursed: this a solemn sentence and not merely ‘get out of my sight’.c. the destination: is age-lasting fire.d. its targey audience: it ‘has been’ (perfect tense) made ready for the devil and his angels. This future was never intended or designed for human beings; it was specifically ‘made ready’ for the devil and his angels. But the sentence in Matt 25 is not declared against angels but against human beings. Satan’s rebellion is much older than that of the human race; Sin entered through Adam’s treachery but had existed outside the human race long before that.There is a special feature of the Bible’s teaching about ‘hell’ which we should not miss. Most of what we know about ‘hell’ came from the lips of our Lord. The most solemn and terrifying warnings do not come from angry prophets or street corner fanatics but from someone who was the perfect expression of the Godhead. Christ made a unique claim for his teaching; He claimed that the ‘words’ He was speaking were not His own but had been given to Him by His Father. John 14:10 Some claim that Christ accommodated His teaching to the common beliefs of His day, but His revelation that He was speaking only the words His Father gave Him undermine this claim. There is another disturbing feature about the Bible’s revelation on ‘hell’; it teaches that the final decisions are made by Christ Himself. If He is the Judge and He filled His teaching with such terrible imagery, what will the reality be like?Ezekiel 28 makes a link between Satan’s ultimate destiny and fire. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. This is an intriguing verse that speaks of Satan defiling his ‘holy places’, his sanctuaries and goes on to speak of his judgement bursting out from within him; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee. It seems as though in some way Satan will be the source of his own punishment. The punishment seems to be that what has grown within him is drawn to the surface, by God, and bursts through and becomes his permanent environment. His punishment is of his own making. God has merely taken off the restraint and brought forth what was within into terrible harvest.We are at the edge of revelation here, and I will push it no further. The above however, has a counterpart in Romans 1 where mankind’s punishment for sin is that God gives ‘them over’ [Rom 3:24, 26, 28] to its consequences. Those consequences are discovered to be ‘freedom’ for even greater acts of foulness and depravity, which in turn power the next cycle of this sin and judgment. It is a terrifying concept. Let me illustrate with a poor illustration. Most public speakers will have experienced ‘acoustic feedback’. The speaker and his microphone get in front of the audio speakers. The sound from the speakers then goes back into the microphone and through the amplification system only to re-emerge and re-enter the system again through the same microphone. This cycle is repeated very quickly in an endless loop which produces that characteristic, ear splitting, howl. If the cycles are not restrained they will tear the equipment to pieces with a sound that ‘comes forth from the midst of thee’.Is this then the fuel of hell? The fires of passions, lusts and rebellions which come forth from the midst only to recycle again and again because God no longer constrains? Is hell then genuinely ‘of my own making’? And is the fearful picture of hell, in part, the image of beings whose wickedness now knows no restraint? A solitary confinement in which beings achieve what they always wanted; freedom, at last, from all God’s loving restraint and interference? And a continuing consciousness of what might have been.If it is true that God ‘has no pleasure in the death of the wicked’ why has be ordained such a terrible eternity for anyone, devil or man? I’ll leave some time for comments and then come back to this question.

Tough questions Ron,For a number of months I have had this thought bouncing around in my head, that of God as a spurned lover.For all that He has done throughout the course of history. Israel being the notably example, time and again rejecting Him to go after 'other lovers'. Other examples would be endless, but ultimately the Cross being the greatest extent to which He Has gone. What more can be done? Not only His justice being appropiated, but that He took it upon HIMSELF, for us...amazing? It's Outlandish!.I am in a perpetual state of amusement why and for how long suffering is our God. If we pause to dwell on what it is for us in our own expeience to be spurned when someone we love rejects us over and over again, what is our patience threshold? A usual response would be "Fine", "I have had it!" "Go right on ahead, see if I care" all the while we do care, thus the hurt. If we expand that to a perspective of the mutiplied billions that have rejected the love of God...it's unfathomable.Sin grieves the heart of God because it is the continued destruction of all that is good, right and true. It is other than the intention of God, the 'well being' of His creation. Somewhere in all this is a big lie that has been bought into, that God "hate's" for hate's sake.In a sense the essence is:Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!The most dangerous atribute given to man is the ability to choose. In the end the spurned lover of our souls will finally say 'enough', "I will not be where I AM not wanted, I have given you every opportunity to come to ME. Nor will I drag you into my Presence against your will, it gives Me no pleasure that you must be kept out of My Kingdom, but this is the decision you have made and I will honor it, nothing that defiles will be in My Presence."Surely there is a multitude of aspects that haven't been touched yet..Oh, but the grieving heart of God.How long till it breaks forth?

HI Mikeyou wrote...The most dangerous atribute given to man is the ability to choose. In the end the spurned lover of our souls will finally say 'enough', "I will not be where I AM not wanted, I have given you every opportunity to come to ME. Nor will I drag you into my Presence against your will, it gives Me no pleasure that you must be kept out of My Kingdom, but this is the decision you have made and I will honor it, nothing that defiles will be in My Presence."I know some of our company will be uncomfortable with the way I express this, but the most terrifying power in the cosmos is the power that God has given to a man to say 'No' to God. I am sure that when the time comes it will not be because God has run out of patience, but because the time has come. His patience is inexaustable but His is a Holy Love and one day it must be demonstrated to the whole cosmos. This undignified God who dies in blood and sweat and tears must reign and be seen to reign in glory. And righteousness will be the sceptre of His Kingdom.

Thanks Ron,Knew you would come to my rescue :-) I know some of our company will be uncomfortable with the way I express this, but the most terrifying power in the cosmos is the power that God has given to a man to say 'No' to God. Still a choice, no?By the way, that doesn't make me uncomfortable at all.

Here's a request for some help. I have been meditating on this theme and posting a few comments of my thoughts. I have a puzzle. I think all the folks posting on this forum would agree that Satan is not lord of hell but will ultimately be its chief prisoner; the Ace of Spades? The Looney Tunes version of Satan in control is rejected by Bible readers. However, there is one reference which could possibly support the idea that Hell is Satan's territory. Let me switch to the word Hades, so that I don't start a feeding frenzy among those who want to tell me that there is a difference. I know, I was just starting off simply.Matthew 16:18 has in mind some kind of conflict (see how vague I am being) between The Church and the Gates of Hades. Gates,in scripture, doesn't always mean physcial barriers; it can mean the seats of authority occupied by those who ruled a city. This seems to portray Hades not as a prison, but as a fortress. Why would there be any kind of conflict between the Church and God's Prison (or Departure Lounge/Holding Cell if you want to divide Hades into compartments). Who is 'manning the walls' of this fortress? Who controls it? If it had said Christ and Hades were in conflict, we could have interpreted it to mean Hades in the sense of the grave or death. But it clearly shows that the conflict is between the Church and Hades.I have some thoughts on the back burner, but I would appreciate any thoughts or comments that folks might have.

What I have always interpreted that to be is the devil's stronhold, however, it is very clear that the devil's eternal position shall be in burning sulphur and we are told that we war not with flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and I think given that Christ holds the keysL: rev1vs18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Then there is really no cause to worry as the enemies stronghold is not going to be his forever.but could it be that there is an assault upon that eternal destiny as there is regularly upon ours and that is the thing that will not prevail?

Then there is really no cause to worry as the enemies stronghold is not going to be his forever.Thanks, I'm not worried. So your thinking would be that Hades was Satan's stronghold but will one day be his prison? This is an interesting line of thought in that Ezek 28 speaks of Satan having defiled his sanctuaries, which thinking along your lines would mean that he fouled the place that God gave him authority in.This still leaves two difficulties. What is the nature of the current conflict, alluded to in Matt 16, between the Church and Hades? And if Satan was in authority over Hades where does that place all the OT saints before the Resurrection? in Satan's control? and David's baby son? I don't get the impression that to leave this life put the OT saints into Satan's domain.Thank you all the same, its more grist to the mill.

I have heard that the "Gates of Hades" was a well-known expression in that day as a euphemism for death. This would make the meaning of the verse that Jesus will build His church and He will not be stopped even by the killing off of His followers. This is a comfort to those who stay up late at night worrying whether there will even be a church in the future after seeing divisions, compromise, and apostasy. It reminds us that:Romans 9 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.Whether "Gates of Hades" was a common expression for death in that time and place I can't verify firsthand, but it would be interesting to research it some.

And if Satan was in authority over Hades where does that place all the OT saints before the Resurrection? in Satan's control? and David's baby son? I don't get the impression that to leave this life put the OT saints into Satan's domain.Jesus gave the parable of a rich man and a servant. (story of Lazerus, i know, mispelled) the master and servant died, and while the master was in hell, he saw his servant and was close enough to ask him for a drink. His servant being in paradise, and the master in hell. Now, if one is to read Revelation, he can see that warfare began between God and Satan during Christ's birth. That is why there weren't so many demons running around the earth before Christ. Paradise and hell were literally right next to each other. When Jesus died, he took paradise and all the people in it and put it in heaven. That is why hell expanded to twice it's size after Christ died.

warfare began between God and Satan during Christ's birth.funny thing is, the war has already been won.

Genesis 3:15 begins the relationship between the seed of Satan and the Seed of Christ. Hatred for one another was established on earth in that moment of time. The seed of Satan began to hate the Seed of Christ. In ChristJeff

Hatred for one another was established on earth in that moment of time.yes, that is true. and once Christ was born on earth, warefare broke out.

nobodythe gates of hades ia a biblical expression for death, as sheol in Hebrew often means the grave. [Is 38:10] Hades is the Greek equivalent for sheol. and I have been working along these lines.I have wanted to see the Church as the agressor her, carrying her fight to the enemy. But I think that blinkered me to look in the other direction. If we now put the concept of death in the place of 'gates of hades' and make 'death' the agressor we get something like this.I will build my Church and 'death' will not suppress it.We know that the Lord immediately went on to speak of His own death after this event. I can understand the verse in these terms. Thanks everyone for allowing me to bounce these ideas around.

yes, that is true, and once Christ was born on earth, warefare broke out. "Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. And the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" Zech. 3:1"Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude verse 9Who is the Lord? In Christ Jeff

So let me see if I can express it more clearly...Like most folk who have commented my instinct was to see the Church as the agressor and then the job was to try to find out what it was attacking. I think this hid the answer for me. Let me state 3 facts and then put them together to make a suggestion. 1. The word prevail is katischuO. The prefix kata can often mean downwards, pinO is to drink, katapinO is to swallow (drink down). And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Comprehended is katalambanO which means to 'hold down'. katischuO means strength-downwards or suppress, or overpower. 2. The phrase 'gates of hades' is a recognised OT death idiom for the grave or death. I said, In the noontide of my days I shall go into the gates of Sheol: I am deprived of the residue of my years. Is 38:10 ASV. So this need not be a fortress but can be just a Hebrew idiom for death. 3. This is the viewpoint that changes things around. Let's make the 'gates of hades' or death the enemy, and lets make 'death' the aggressor. We now have a statement which could be paraphrased as "I will build my church and death will not suppress it." This works because we know that death is an enemy; the last one that shall be destroyed. But death cannot suppress the Church. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church. The Church militant, as aggressor now comes into clearer focus in the next verse. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Certainly the church is on the attack, but I think we need to draw that particular truth from verse 19 rather than v18. v18 now speaks of its divine origin and irrepressible vitality v19 speaks of its progressive impact upon the earth Well, what do you think? As they say, will it run? After working through all this I came on J B Philips Paraphrase; on this rock that I am going to found my Church, and the powers of death will never have the power to destroy it. I think that paraphrase captures my current understanding of the verse.Thanks for letting me bounce this around.