Thou shall not kill

I saw a wonderful bumpersticker the other day and I thought it would generate lots of good conversation.

"When Jesus said love your enemies he probably meant don't kill them."

I just love it!

Does who made the sticker change the truth of the message? There's just no loving way to destroy life...especially life destined for fire.

True the NT gives wordly authorities the right to bear the sword and that not in vain to keep evil in check.

But not so in the Kingdom of God "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds).

1. Interested in what verses people use to justify Christians killing their enemies when Jesus condemned it.

2. Is the doctrine of a just war of the Devil?

3. Which of our examples Jesus and apostles engaged the world in a worldly way? War that is. If we are supposed to walk as Jesus walked is there not a more excellent way?

4. Which is more powerful--a bullet or prayer?

"You have heard that it was said,'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strike you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Murray

I would like to respond to all of this:

My brother Will, just left for Iraq last night, well, technically this morning, and should be in Kuwait sometime in the afternoon.

I would like you guys to tell him what he is doing, is wrong.

He will proceed to laugh at you, why, because he has seen the destruction that sadaam hussein's regime has caused on the country, the millions of people he has killed. My brother has seen mass graves with his own eyes.

This will be my brothers second tour in Iraq, and he is proud to serve, and I am very proud of him.

I heard this once said: "For evil to triumph, good men need not do nothing."

This is his second tour out there, did he kill people, yes, will he kill people again

Concerning an eye for an eye, Jesus was quoting from Exodus 21v24. However verse 23 says life for life. That was the first thing that was to be rectified. Why didn't Jesus quote that scripture?

Whilst physical mutilation was now a thing of the past, the death sentence wasn't, and still isn't.

Furthermore, if any nation was to see another nation attack it and not do anything, does that mean that they are now Christians on the way to heaven, even though they practice a pagan religion. No.

Whether saved or not, if under attack, you defend yourself, or so you should.

Again the word of God says, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

King David said when he is for peace, they, his enemies, are for war.

Exodus 15v3 says the Lord is a man of war.

Scripture tells us God has many enemies, and He destroys them.

Revelation tells us that the Lord judges and makes war.

Also, what of soldiers who are Christians and fight in war and kill someone? Do they go to hell?

Do we only send sinners to die in battle and go to hell, while we piously stay at home and pray for them?

It is not an easy issue to address, but needs to be thought of Biblically, not in a secular way which obviously now apparent in the Church. God bless.

I knew when I wrote that scripture, everyone would get all excited. It says what it says.

If someone was attacking my family, what would I do?

Well why does he say resist an evil person? Turn the other cheek?

It seems we want to explain away, whatever does not justify our actions.

Pray for our enemies.
Bless those that persecute you.

Why did he tell Peter to put the sword away? Those that live by the sword, die by the sword.

These are not my words.

Why did Jesus say these things?

Murray

Well Murray,

If someone was about to kill your family, wouldnt you do all that you can to save them, even kill the person trying to kill your family. If you dont do it, I will.

That is irresponsible, and you can be held accountable for your inactions, to god, and our law (if you lived here in the U.S).

ooppss....

Double Post

Boomatt,

I didn't say I would just stand there. I would drop them.

You and Krispy think I am critiquing you. I am not. I know nothing.

I am asking why Jesus said what he said?

Murray

Just knew I'd stir up a hornets nest.

I've seen a lot of logic about Hitler and if people would attack my family, but what is a scriptural basis for killing please.

There were people who did not seek the destruction of Hitler, but valiantly hid these precious Jews in thier homes, some of which were indeed put to death for their Christian service. These no doubt are with the Lord.

As for "what if's" I find little use in role playing them. For one, few people would react how they say, so it's nearly futile to go there. These scenerio's also take out the providence and protection of God. But even if they happen, and surely from time-to-time they will, ALL things occur at God's disposal. Before someone freaks out..hear me. Job, suffered calamity upon calamity, and indeed God did not interfere. But all those things worked for the good. So, I suppose if we want to play the "what if" game, I pray I am a strong enough Christian to bear Christian fruit to the glory of the Father in such events.

How many apostles were GI's? None. How many were soldiers of the Cross? All. For all were martyred, killed, beheaded, tortured, stoned, etc, save John. And this has been the true churches testimony throughout the ages.

here is come commentary from John MacArthur concerning this subject:

"It may surprise some to learn that in the Bible, war itself is not portrayed as inherently wrong, immoral, or ungodly. There are times when God Himself authorizes and condones war as an instrument of justice.

God has given human governments the right to fight wars for self-protection and as a means of justice. The Old Testament is full of incidents where God Himself authorized war and even order the Israelites to wage war. And Scripture is clear in teaching that God still ordains government as the guardian of order and justice in society, and He still gives government the authority to punish evildoers, even by waging war, when necessary (Romans 13:1-4).

I am convinced God gave this power to governments because of His mercy. Otherwise, evil people would dominate. That is why a just war is an expression of divine righteousness. To turn away from justice in the name of peace is not an act of love; it is a refusal to love one’s neighbor as oneself. To dispense with justice would never bring any kind of peace anyway. It would simply allow lawless people to dominate the world in a deadly fashion."

Link: http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=articles&aid=231137

Amen, Murray.

Do you ever hear of any of those dear brothers and sisters who were martyred or are being persecuted today taking up arms against their oppressors? Doesn't vengeance belong to the Lord anymore?

I always read in books about authority that you are to submit to worldly authorities UNLESS they command you to sin. I believe that a Christian's duty is then to continue in submission taking the consequences of your standing for righteousness. I don't think it can be stated more clearly than 2 Cor 10:4.

Peace to you,
Brad.

Here's another that kind of puts what I am saying in perspective, sorry for stepping on some toes if I did, I just dont like it when people tell me my brother who is defending YOUR freedom is a murderer. This perspective is from the Assembly of God:

"War and Conscientious Objectors
This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church's Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.

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Does the Assemblies of God have a position on war and conscientious objectors?
The Assemblies of God position on war and conscientious objectors states: "As a Movement we affirm our loyalty to the government of the United States in war or peace. We shall continue to insist, as we have historically, on the right of each member to choose for himself whether to declare his position as a combatant [one who willingly serves in positions of violence], a noncombatant [one who serves only in nonviolent ways], or a conscientious objector [one who refuses to participate in any form of military service because of personal convictions regarding war]." (Article XXII of the Bylaws)

The implications of the above statement are clear. The Assemblies of God is committed to a position of loyalty to the government. Second, that loyalty is not imperiled by the presence of war. And third, all members are encouraged to exercise their personal convictions in how they will respond during times of war whether combatant, noncombatant, or as a conscientious objector.

What are the biblical principles which support this position? 1) The Scriptures call for civic loyalty: "Everyone must submit himself to governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established" (Romans 13:1). 2) On occasion, those authorities must bear arms: "He does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer" (Romans 13:4). 3) The Scriptures call for the employment of personal conscience in all matters. "Each of us will give an account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12).

In light of this, how are we to understand the sixth commandment: "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13)? The Hebrew word used here (raisach) in the ancient manuscripts is descriptive of an act of willful and personal vengeance. While the outcome may be similar to the killings of war, the motive and driving force are quite different. The language of Exodus 20:13 does not suggest that we are to disallow participation in war, even if that participation involves killing. The preservation of peace and tranquillity sometimes makes this response imperative.

The Assemblies of God as a Movement deplores war. Therefore we are committed to its avoidance as much as accountability, sensibility, and responsibility allow. This will be the necessary posture, until the Prince of Peace–Jesus Christ—establishes His reign over a world that is now characterized by violence, wickedness, and war.

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The above statement is based upon our common understanding of scriptural teaching. The official delineation of this position is found in the General Council Bylaws, Article XXII.

All Scripture quotations are from the New International Version (NIV) unless otherwise specified."

Link: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/contempissues_11_war.cfm

The idea that troops are winning my "freedom" is an absolute farce!

ONLY JESUS IS ABLE TO GIVE FREEDOM!

One would say that American freedom isn't freedom at all....but a different kind of bondage. Sin abounds in the states.

I am absolutely sure that there are people in China (under communism) that are more free in Christ than I am (in supposed freedom).

Beyond this freedoms are becomming a thing of the past. Try street preaching sometime. Clock how fast the police come and try to tell you you have to stop. Usually somewhere in the ballpark of 5 minutes to an hour.

Don't get me wrong I appreciate this country and its laws. But the thought of people killing so I can have 1st ammendment rights appeals little to me. I say take my rights and if that changes me then I wasn't free in the first place.

I will be sure to pass this info to my brother.

And we don't harm the Devil by waging war against nations that have a devilish leader while killing thousands of innocent civilians, we help him. (i.e., 2003 Iraq War).

Actually, things happen in war, but look at the numbers that Saddaam and Hitler killed, millions, while Almost all of the innocent victims died in Iraq were accidents, not intentually.

Shouldnt we give those Millions of people that were killed a chance to accept christ, then just one crazy dictator.

Let me ask a rhetorical question:
Can you kill someone that you love? No?
I think it's clear why Jesus said to love your enemies (Mt 5:44).

Would you consider war to be a direct result of sin? Should we then continue in sin to make things 'right' according to North American standards?

I'm not saying that wars aren't necessary. Jesus said that these things must come to pass. I for one, though, am not going to willingly trangress the Law of God because my government condones it...even if it is for national freedom ([i][size=xx-small][color=000000][font=Arial]see NLONG's post below about freedom[/font][/color][/size][/i])

Check out Spurgeon's article called "Enemies at Peace". It was the Random Article a few minutes ago and I think it applies here in some ways.

(Sorry, I don't know how to make link so you'll have to manually go there)

Saddam Hussein didn't kill millions. Estimates are around 20,000 people

Sounds like a Michael Moore estimate to me.

Check out some facts here:

Link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030404-1.html

Life Under Saddam Hussein
Past Repression and Atrocities by Saddam Hussein's Regime

Life Under
Saddam Hussein

Escaping from Iraq

A Brutal Regime

For over 20 years, the greatest threat to Iraqis has been Saddam Hussein's regime -- he has killed, tortured, raped and terrorized the Iraqi people and his neighbors for over two decades.

When Iraq is free, past crimes against humanity and war crimes committed against Iraqis, will be accounted for, in a post-conflict Iraqi-led process. The United States, members of the coalition and international community will work with the Iraqi people to build a strong and credible judicial process to address these abuses.

Under Saddam's regime many hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of his actions - the vast majority of them Muslims.

According to a 2001 Amnesty International report, "victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings and electric shocks... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage."

Saddam has had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered.

Allegations of prostitution used to intimidate opponents of the regime, have been used by the regime to justify the barbaric beheading of women.

Documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulted in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. o The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. o 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.

Iraq's 13 million Shi'a Muslims, the majority of Iraq's population of approximately 22 million, face severe restrictions on their religious practice, including a ban on communal Friday prayer, and restriction on funeral processions.

According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed during the uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south." Refugees International reports that the "Oppressive government policies have led to the internal displacement of 900,000 Iraqis, primarily Kurds who have fled to the north to escape Saddam Hussein's Arabization campaigns (which involve forcing Kurds to renounce their Kurdish identity or lose their property) and Marsh Arabs, who fled the government's campaign to dry up the southern marshes for agricultural use. More than 200,000 Iraqis continue to live as refugees in Iran."

The U.S. Committee for Refugees, in 2002, estimated that nearly 100,000 Kurds, Assyrians and Turkomans had previously been expelled, by the regime, from the "central-government-controlled Kirkuk and surrounding districts in the oil-rich region bordering the Kurdish controlled north."

"Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living." (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) o Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies. o Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces.

The Iraqi regime has repeatedly refused visits by human rights monitors. From 1992 until 2002, Saddam prevented the UN Special Rapporteur from visiting Iraq.

The UN Special Rapporteur's September 2001, report criticized the regime for "the sheer number of executions," the number of "extrajudicial executions on political grounds," and "the absence of a due process of the law."

Executions: Saddam Hussein's regime has carried out frequent summary executions, including: o 4,000 prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in 1984 o 3,000 prisoners at the Mahjar prison from 1993-1998 o 2,500 prisoners were executed between 1997-1999 in a "prison cleansing campaign" o 122 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/March 2000 o 23 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in October 2001 o At least 130 Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001

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jordanamo: I think that you should rethink that estimate, and who your listening to.

Also: read my past posts

On occasion, those authorities must bear arms: "He does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer" (Romans 13:4)

Under Saddam's regime many hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of his actions - the vast majority of them Muslims.

Just a thought, but could it be that God put Saddam into power to bring the sword against those who are wrongdoers against Him? Innocent in man's eyes, yes, but guilty before God.

Juist a thought, but could it be that God brought Bush into power to bring the sword against Sadaam and his men who caused possibly millions of deaths. Think about it. The Lord got rid of the lesser of two evils this time.

Read my previous posts on John MacArthur's Interpretation and The assembly of God's Interpretation.

Absolutely! I believe that ruling authorities ARE put in place by God. I'm not saying that war isn't necessary, but I am saying that as followers and disciples of Christ, we shouldn't be breaking God's commands in order to serve our CIVIL authorities. Nor should we be placing our hopes in the governments and policies of men. Are we to obey man or God?

The word 'love' that Jesus uses in Mt 5:44 is the greek 'agapao' from 'agape'. The Greek is descriptive of an act of unconditional love that Jesus even tells Peter to love Him with. While the outcome may be similar to the love that Christ commands us to love our enemies with, the motive and driving force are exactly the same. The language of Matthew 5:44 does not suggest that we are to disallow participation in war, but that participation should exclude anything that would bring personal harm.

There's been plenty of scripture quoted in the posts preceding this to support that Christians should not take up arms. Direct quotes from Paul and enforced by Jesus' own words.

Bless you my brother and may He help us ALL to hear and know His heart.

[b]Psalm 139:21-22
Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

In John 17:9 The Lord prayed:

I pray for THEM (God's people): I pray [i]NOT [/i]for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.[/b]

Throughout history, there has been only 2 groups of people, God's people and the rest.

God's sovereignty rules, period.

I salute and am thankful to those who fight or fought for this country. I thank especially those who are God's children and whom He places in these horrible warfares, suffering or dying for this country. The rest God will judge and reward.

Before we utter 'love your enemies', perhaps we should love one another first, if not, respect each other will be a good start.

'Thou shall not kill', in the Literal Translation, is Thou shall not [i]murder[/i], the Ten Commandments, along with all the Levitical laws were written to Israel. Even GOD Himself commanded the Israelites to kill even babies and women in one instance, not to mention how HE helped Israel/Judah to slaughter their enemies.

The verse within context below is clear for one to see God's mind towards those who hate Him:
2 Chronicles 19:2
And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat,[b] Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.[/b]

'love your enemies' - Enemies of God/Christ are not the same as enemies of man, those who treat us bad or even hurt us are not the same as those who assault JEHOVAH/CHRIST or His people.

I see here expressed three reasons for war: 1. self-defence, 2. rescuing the oppressed, and 3. to knock out an evil person. Of course thirst for power and kingdom-building should be added, but because they are definitely not ethical, they are not given as reasons. During war it these motives tend to get quite clouded together. And the selfish motives tend to take priority, and get masked behind the heroic motives.

Nevertheless, as pointed out, we can’t deny God’s sovereignty and his use of war to humble nations. In the OT God used nations, even those that were far more evil than Israel to judge her.

I can’t help but ask all who are opposed to war: Does God offer an alternative? If you cannot give a good answer, then your position seems rather foolish.

Earlier I saw comments about spiritual warfare. That causes me to wonder, If those who claim to be followers of Christ are indeed fighting THAT war, then would that effect our society - including war?

In defense of all the “Krispy’s” who have been or are out there on the battlefront, I must point out: if God’s people on the home front are not fighting the war they were divinely called to fight, then how can they criticize those who go and fight flesh and blood? Have those objectors not by default, assigned defense strategies to the natural methods of the world rather than the supernatural weapons of God.

Krispy points out that there are a lot of arm-chair generals – and I hate to say it, but I think he is right – and here I speak of the spiritual war.

I wonder how much of our past war-related tragedies are because of a failure to fight the God-ordained war in the heavenly realms, using spiritual weapons. (That’s a big topic) I wonder how many wars could have been prevented. I wonder if the emancipation of slaves could have happened without war (I'm no history expert, I'm just wondering)

A comment about Bonhoffer: I regard him as an immensely tragic figure in the end. If he had not attempted to assassinate Hitler he would have survived. God took care of Hitler shortly after his execution. In this case, it’s easy to say: If only Bonhoffer had deferred vengeance to God.

Diane

[color=0000CC]
Mat 21:40-41 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.[/color]

In this parable Jesus provoked his listeners to answer with what they knew to be "right" in the natural to illustrate what God would do to those who rejected him.

PassingThru

I can’t help but ask all who are opposed to war: Does God offer an alternative?

For a Christian, Yes. Love your enemies.

I see here expressed three reasons for war: 1. self-defence, 2. rescuing the oppressed, and 3. to knock out an evil person.

The difficulty and complications, for me, is that God's Church is transnational. For example, take the recent, tragic events in Lebanon. Should Lebanese Christians take up arms to defend their country? I'm not here to take sides, i pray for Isreals safety. I'm just posting this to show how difficult the question of war is - especially for a Christian, at least this Christian.

Here's a story i came across on the web,
[url=http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:rairbeGmU84J:www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp%3FID%3D23714+refugee+Christian+Lebanon&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=21&client=safari]Lebanese Christians serve Muslim refugees[/url]

The last two sentences of this article, for us who have never been in war, show the tension of a Christian believer called up for service, "I asked another believer who got called up to service how I could pray for him, thinking he would just ask to come back home safely. He said, ‘Just pray that I do my job, but that I don’t have to use my gun.’”

Does God offer an alternative?

For a Christian, Yes. Love your enemies.

It would seem most unfair of Christ to call us to lay down our weapons of defence without providing us something in their place. ... see where I'm going with this?

Diane

That God allows war is a fact. Why does He allow it? We must consider, first, what we may call the biblical view of war. It is not that war as such is sin, but that war is a consequence of sin; or, if you prefer it, that war is one of the expressions of sin. The Bible traces war back to its final and ultimate cause. It is true that it does not altogether ignore the various political and social and economic and psychological factors of which so much has been made. But according to its teaching, these things are no more than the immediate causes, the actual agencies employed. The thing itself is much deeper. As James reminds us, the ultimate cause of war is lust and desire; this restlessness that is a part of us as the result of sin; this craving for that which is illicit and for that which we cannot obtain. It shows itself in many ways, both in personal, individual life, and also in the life of nations. It is the root cause of theft and robbery, jealousy and envy, pride and hate, infidelity and divorce. And in precisely the same way it leads to personal quarrels and strife, and also to wars between nations. The Bible does not isolate war, as if it were something separate and unique and quite apart, as we tend to do in our thinking. It is but one of the manifestations of sin, one of the consequences of sin. On a larger scale, perhaps, and in a more terrible form for that reason, but still, in its essence, precisely the same as all the other effects and consequences of sin. To ask God to prohibit war or to prevent war, therefore, is to ask Him to prohibit one of the particular consequences of sin. Or, if we take the view that war itself is actual sin, it is to ask God to prohibit one particular sin.

Excerpt from Martyn Lloyd-Jones

Remainder can be found here [url=http://www.gnpcb.org/page/newsletter.gn.2003.05]http://www.gnpcb.org/page/newsletter.gn.2003.05[/url]

Perhaps it's just a matter of perspective. It may be far less a matter of defending as it is one of appealing to scripture. Here is an excerpt from a previous thread that you may want to give a read through...
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[i] And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, and saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.[/i]
Mat 8:5-13

[b]A centurion[/b] - Εκατονταρχος. A Roman military officer who had the command of one hundred men.

John Gill

The point of stressing here is to call to mind every instance that the Lord or the disciples had with the military of their time. Whether they be soldiers or commanders, nowhere is an ideal of pacifism expressed towards them or expected from them, nowhere does He or do they instruct them to lay down their arms and cease going to war, to battle.

John the Baptist, as the forerunner to the Lord Himself had the same mindset;

[i] And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages.[/i]
Luk 3:14

If I might interject something here I think what has been greatly misunderstood and wrenched completely out of it's proper context is a humanistic or 'humanism' philosophy that recasts the Lord and His intentions in our own image or way's of thinking.

The difficult emphasis I am attempting to bring forth is just to look at things and understand them from the point of view that He Himself gave towards these matters. And for the most part the impression He left was that of being unmoved, even non-pulsed by it all. Just facts as they are, pushing to a more penetrating and important question.

[i]There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.[/i] Act 10:1,2

[b]A centurion[/b] - Ἑκατονταρχης, The chief or captain of 100 men, as both the Greek and Latin words imply. How the Roman armies were formed, divided, and marshalled, see in the notes on Mat_20:16 (note). A centurion among the Romans was about the same rank as a captain among us.

The band called the Italian band - The word σπειρα, which we translate band, signifies the same as cohort or regiment, which sometimes consisted of 555 infantry, and 66 cavalry; but the cohors prima, or first cohort, consisted of 1105 infantry, and 132 cavalry, in the time of Vegetius. But the cavalry are not to be considered as part of the cohort, but rather a company joined to it. A Roman legion consisted of ten cohorts; the first of which surpassed all the others, both in numbers and in dignity. When in former times the Roman legion contained 6000, each cohort consisted of 600, and was divided into three manipuli; but both the legions and cohorts were afterwards various in the numbers they contained. As there were doubtless many Syrian auxiliaries, the regiment in question was distinguished from them as consisting of Italian, i.e. Roman, soldiers. The Italian cohort is not unknown among the Roman writers: Gruter gives an inscription, which was found in the Forum Sempronii, on a fine table of marble, nine feet long, four feet broad, and four inches thick; on which are the following words: -

l. maesio. l. f. pol.
rvfo. proc. avg.
trib. mil. leg. x.
appollinaris. trib.
coh. mil. ITALIC. volunt.
qvae. est. in. syria. praef.
fabrvm. bis.
See Gruter’s Inscriptions, p. ccccxxxiii-iv.

This was probably the same cohort as that mentioned here by St. Luke; for the tenth legion mentioned in the above inscription was certainly in Judea, a.d. 69. Tacitus also mentions the Italica legio, the Italic legion, lib. i. c. 59, which Junius Blaesus had under his command in the province of Lyons. We learn, from the Roman historians, that the fifth, tenth, and fifteenth legions were stationed in Judea; and the third, fourth, sixth, and twelfth in Syria. The Italic legion was in the battle of Bedriacum, fought, a.d. 69, between the troops of Vitellius and Otho; and performed essential services to the Vitellian army. See Tacitus, Hist. lib. ii. cap. 41. The issue of this battle was the defeat of the Othonians, on which Otho slew himself, and the empire was confirmed to Vitellius.

Wherever he sees it necessary, St. Luke carefully gives dates and facts, to which any might have recourse who might be disposed to doubt his statements: we have had several proofs of this in his Gospel. See especially Luk_1:1 (note), etc., and Luk_3:1 (note), etc., and the notes there.

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Decided against stringing this out too much longer by example upon example. Was not the Lord addressing the root of the matter, the most important aspects, the [i]other[/i] concerns predominately?

Mat 24:6 [i] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: [u]see that ye be not troubled[/u]: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet[/i].

Whatever ones particular eschatology, the sentiment is still the same. Whether it be His dismissing the disciples questions in regards to "[i]the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices, or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?[/i] The response is the same: [i]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.[/i] Luk 13:5

Mar 8:31 [i]And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.[/i]

Interesting is it not that it was the Roman soldiers who [i]put[/i] the Lord to death, but who was it that had long before murdered Him?

Mat 5:21 [i]Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[/i]

[b]Thou shalt not kill[/b] - See Exo_20:13. This properly denotes taking the life of another with malice, or with an intention to murder him. The Jews understood it as meaning no more. The comment of our Saviour shows that it was spiritual, and was designed to extend to the thoughts and feelings as well as the external act.

Mat 5:22 [i]But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:[/i]

[b]Mat 5:22 -
But I say unto you[/b] - Jesus being God as well as man Joh_1:1, Joh_1:14, and therefore, being the original giver of the law, had a right to expound it or change it as he pleased. Compare Mat_12:6, Mat_12:8. He therefore spoke here and elsewhere as having authority, and not as the scribes. It may be added here that no mere man ever spake as Jesus did, when explaining or enforcing the law. He did it as having a right to do it; and he that has a right to ordain and change laws in the government of God must be himself divine.

[b]Is angry with His brother without a cause[/b] - Anger, or that feeling which we have when we are injured, and which prompts us to defend ourselves when in danger, is a natural feeling, given to us:

1.\tAs a proper expression of our disapprobation of a course of evil conduct; and

2.\tThat we may defend ourselves when suddenly attacked.

When excited against sin, it is lawful. God is angry with the wicked, Psa_7:11. Jesus looked on the hypocritical Pharisees with anger, Mar_3:5. So it is said, “Be ye angry, and sin not, Eph_4:26. This anger, or indignation against sin, is not what our Saviour speaks of here. What he condemns here is anger without a cause; that is, unjustly, rashly, hastily, where no offence has been given or intended. In that case it is evil; and it is a violation of the sixth commandment, because “he that hateth his brother, is a murderer,” 1Jo_3:15. He has a feeling which would lead him to commit murder, if it were fully acted out. The word “brother” here refers not merely to one to whom we are nearly related, having the same parent or parents, as the word is commonly used, but includes also a neighbor, or perhaps anyone with whom we may be associated. As all people are descended from one Father and are all the creatures of the same God, so they are all brethren: and so every man should be regarded and treated as a brother, Heb_11:16.

Albert Barnes

[i]And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: [u]for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.[/u]

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. [u]For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?[/u] Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.[/i] Mar 8:32-38

Another point stressed strangely enough by way of military comparison and which I will leave off at. Would note that there is something just as peculiar in the entangling that we all can get ourselves into by missing the expressed sentiment that the Lord and the disciples were always pointing to:

[i]Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with [u]the affairs of this life[/u]; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.[/i] 2Ti 2:3,4

[b]2Ti 2:4 -
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life[/b] - Having alluded to the soldier, and stated one thing in which the Christian minister is to resemble him, another point of resemblance is suggested to the mind of the apostle. Neither the minister nor the soldier is to be encumbered with the affairs of this life, and the one should not be more than the other. This is always a condition in becoming a soldier. He gives up his own business during the time for which he is enlisted, and devotes himself to the service of his country. The farmer leaves his plow, and the mechanic his shop, and the merchant his store, and the student his books, and the lawyer his brief; and neither of them expect to pursue these things while engaged in the service of their country. It would be wholly impracticable to carry on the plans of a campaign, if each one of these classes should undertake to prosecute his private business. See this fully illustrated from the Rules of War among the Romans, by Grotius, “in loc.” Roman soldiers were not allowed to marry, or to engage in any husbandry or trade; and they were forbidden to act as tutors to any person, or curators to any man’s estate, or proctors in the cause of other men. The general principle was, that they were excluded from those relations, agencies, and engagements, which it was thought would divert their minds from that which was to be the sole object of pursuit. So with the ministers of the gospel. It is equally improper for them to “entangle” themselves with the business of a farm or plantation; with plans of speculation and gain, and with any purpose of worldly aggrandizement. The minister of the gospel accomplishes the design of his appointment only when he can say in sincerity, that he “is not entangled with the affairs of this life;” compare the notes at 1Co_9:25-27.

[b]That he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier[/b] - That is, him who has enlisted him, or in whose employ he is. His great object is to approve himself to him. It is not to pursue his own plans, or to have his own will, or to accumulate property or fame for himself. His will is absorbed in the will of his commander, and his purpose is accomplished if he meet with his approbation. Nowhere else is it so true that the will of one becomes lost in that of another, as in the case of the soldier. In an army it is contemplated that there shall be but one mind, one heart, one purpose - that of the commander; and that the whole army shall be as obedient to that as the members of the human body are to the one will that controls all. The application of this is obvious. The grand purpose of the minister of the gospel is to please Christ. He is to pursue no separate plans, and to have no separate will, of his own; and it is contemplated that the whole “Corps” of Christian ministers and members of the churches shall be as entirely subordinate to the will of Christ, as an army is to the orders of its chief.

Albert Barnes

Finally and more importantly, to redirect this even more so ... Received the following from a brother who has traversed this site in the past as I was still forming my thoughts, the timing was quite interesting: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10974&post_id=85389&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=35#85389]Has the church missed the real war?[/url]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From a much longer thread that is pretty thorough, it would take some patience though;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10933&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi Killed in Bombing Raid[/url]

Saddam summoned April Glaspie, our ambassador to Iraq, and asked her if the US had any objection to the massing of troops on the Kuwaiti border to resolve the Iraqi claim that Kuwait was stealing Iraqi oil by horizontal drilling. She said we didnt , which he took as a tacit wink and nod to do it, invade Kuwait.

Do you have any proof, please give me some sources I can check, but please dont give me Michael Moore's website or any other left wing extremist to colloborate this claim.

Bartle said:

First off, let me say that I think your brother is probably a fine young trooper, and my prayer is that you stay right on top of mailing him regularly, and send him frequent care packages. The mail call is a highly prized part of a solider's day, as you probably already know and have done in the past.

First, thank you for those words of encouragement, they really do mean a lot. I ask that you join me in praying for him.

Bartle also said:

whats that mean?...in all due respect, whats that mean. Michael Moore brought up some VALID points in Fahrenheit 911. I'm not going to bore us both with a regurgitation of his film, as I regard him as a guy who can recite the problems but has no solution, but he brought up valid points.

He might have brought a couple of valid points up. but this man who claims that Bush is doing this for oil etc. (I've heard all the excuses, they even claim Osama is a CIA Agent)

Michael Moore has his own skeletons in his closet. He owned thousands of shares in Halliburton as he was condemming them. You can read about all that in a book book called "Do As I say, Not as I Do." by: Peter Schweizer. After that, I think you will take what Michael Moore says with a grain of salt. Not to mention the fact that he hates christians.

Now bro Boomatt, my dear brother...please, stop with the "Michael Moore" this-n-that, I'm begging you. In freedom, dissidence

I cant get over the constant attacks he makes on anyone who is not seeing his way. We might have freedom of speech, but their comes a time when things fall under treason, not freedom.

Bro, King David was a leader, and you know something else?.....who know who was the last wartime hero as President? John F. Kennedy.

Actually, read about the first president Bush! He was an impressive hero in WWII. I would check out wikipedia.org.

Bartle, I dont want to discuss democrat or republican, but my main issue with the democrats, is their support of abortion. I will never vote for anyone, who supports abortion, democrat or republican.

But anyway, may God bless your dear bro, ask him if could use care packages from loving followers of Christ, and it would be my pleasure, my ministry to send him boxes of Fiddle-Faddle, Starbursts, Simpson's comics(lol)....serious, let me know if I can help bolster his morale. we can touch bases on PM if this is something you want to do for him.

Again, thank you so much for your encouragement. I will keep you updated dear brother.

On a side note: I pray that you were not offended by what I say here, it is not my intention.

hope you all have a great sunday

-Matt

bartel said:
Quote

"what has this all to do with Christ?

nothing."

Nah, don't be so sure. I believe that the middle east scenario and it's warfares, have a great deal of spiritual (i.e. demonic influence) maneuvering behind them, in the [i]unseen [/i]world for sure.

ALL major worldly events have to do with Christ as satan seeks to destroy His future Kingdom. And if not Christ, the attack of satan to the Triune God has been going on since it was kicked out of heaven. Yes, we can see the manifestations of humansins, but demonic instigations as well. Since God is in control, God allows them to serve His ultimate purpose.

Many Christians undermine or downplay satan or the devil's power and impact in the seen world, I dare not so. Scriptures can clarify this area of understanding .

For us to believe God without paying attention (don't want to use the word believing here) satan and it's ways, is not wise, even pertaining to our own lives. No doubt, we need not be afraid of it so to speak, but to be vigilant always.

M.Lloyd-Jones, D.G. Barnhouse and some others have some great teachings in this area.

[b]1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Ephesians 6: 12
For we wrestle [i]NOT[/i] against flesh and blood, but against PRINCIPALITIES, against POWERS, against the RULERS OF THE DARKNESS IN THIS WORLD, against SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES. [/b]

(it=devil in the above)

Hate to be the spolier here but just a strong word of caution on all this. Because there is a lot of inherant speculation in these types of discussions as it pertains to this forum ...

We have been down this road before Brethren, tread carefully, remember what this site's primary purpose is.

From a much longer thread that is pretty thorough, it would take some patience though;

Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi Killed in Bombing Raid

Thanks for brining this thread to attention. The last page is excellent and worth a read.

An excellent quote from IRONMAN:

perhaps our problem is that we are Americans, Canadians, Englishmen etc first and Christians somewhere down the line. ought we not be Christians first and then let that determine how we conduct ourselves as Americans, Canadians Englishmen etc? like sister diane i wonder how it looks before God when His children who are Christians kill eachother for country. which is a higher priority to you and me? God or country?

He might have brought a couple of valid points up. but this man who claims that Bush is doing this for oil etc.

Christian "politics" do not fall neatly on to a left/right political spectrum. Regardless if one believes or disbelieves that the U.S. government cranked up the propaganda machine to convince the public to invade Iraq, its not easy to dismiss oil as one motivation of going to war. Goepolitcs, centering on an ever increasing scarcity of resources, especially one that America is so hopelessly dependent on, is what in part, is shaping foreign policy from the U.S to China.

I brought this up some time back, and i'll bring it up again just in case anyone missed it. Peakoil, if your interested look here:

[url=http://www.energybulletin.net/primer.php]Peakoil Primer[/url]
[url=http://www.wolfatthedoor.org.uk/]The Wolf at the Door[/url]
or just google peakoil or petrodollar

I have no agenda but to inform on a trend that most of the world is sleeping on(would Satan have it any other way?). But i've probably gone way off topic, and in keeping with Mike's caution i'll stop here.

-K_DAY

How does loving your enemies and hurting your brethren work?

God is sovereign, and I will say to remind ourselves, love or even 'provoked' violence against evil, are surely under His control.

In 2 Timothy 3:16
[b]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:[/b]

God's precepts against HIS enemies in the OT must be taken into consideration along with Christ's command to love the enemies in the NT, not only so, but to understand within their contexts. The former ,God's enemies ,were those who tried to destroy Israel (in satan's hopes to prevent the birth of Messiah from Judah's bloodline). The latter, our enemies, humans who oppose us.
In all of this, throughout history, one should not forget the demonic activities that go on behind the unseen world as well. In the Middle East, God is perhaps doing the same as Israel's future King and Kingdom are near.

In Romans 12:18

[b][i]If it be possible[/b], as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men[/b]

"IF IT BE POSSIBLE." !!!

For one to add more grief to others, especially among brethren while they or their loved ones are already in difficult positions, is that love?

If America is the offensive country, I can still see the whole critique can be turned around. If someone barged into your home and assault your loved ones, and you can stand there and tell the intruders you love them , that's great, assuming they repent and leave. If not, what would you do?

What parent or family member would like to send their children off to war? What Christian parent would condone to see their children to involve in violence? God is sovereign, not only in regards to nations, but in each individual child of God's life ( the success, failures, sins, mistakes, blessings, afflictions..) From God's standpoint? From God's grand scheme of things? Could not God just snap His fingers and make all disappear right this moment if He chooses to?
Is it a sin for a Christian to die in wars? Would God punish all His children that go/have gone into battles? ??

Don't you think that God loves His children, even if they 'mistakenly' go to war? or 'mistakenly' dash into the twin towers to suffer violence in order to save others? That's violence too! Or will He still love me if I fire away to prevent someone who tries to hurt my children?

Please, exercise the same love from loving your enemies to love first your brethren, pray for them, support them, it's really not too fair, not to mention, not very kind to throw this 'love your enemies' line at those who are already in perils. God knows and sees all.

Pray for the brethren and their loved ones' who are out there for special grace of protection from harm, and for the comfort and peace for those who are left behind.

Lastly, that anti-war bumper sticker can only be read from a car that's not been bombed.

so sad

What parent or family member would like to send their children off to war? What Christian parent would condone to see their children to involve in violence? Is there a choice? From God's standpoint? From God's grand scheme of things?

Is there a choice? You've got to be kidding, right?

When any of us are faced with temptation, do we have a choice? Absolutely. We either choose to follow the path of holiness or sin and suffer the consequences of the choice either way. What's the chief consequence of sin? Death.

Don't you think that God loves His children, even if they 'mistakenly' go to war? or 'mistakenly' dash into the twin towers to suffer violence in order to save others?

Maybe you didn't word your statement correctly, but in all honesty, how do you 'mistakenly' go to war?? And your twin towers statement...saving someone verses killing someone is a totally different scenario.

Once again, as mentioned many times in this thread, I ask anyone to show NT evidence that going to 'physical' war is how a Christian should respond to oppression. Are we supposed to be worldly nationalists? If patriotic, who is our Patriarch? The nation or God? If your answer is the nation, you should ask yourself some deeper questions. Obey the authorities, yes. Obey God's commandments above the authorities, without hesitation.

And as Christians, should we be fearful of death for ourselves or our brothers and sisters knowing that they'll go to be with the Lord?

I assure you all that I do pray for my brothers and sisters in Christ who have chosen to join the military. May God keep them spotless and in His Hand them that they may return home safely. Earthly or heavenly, whichever the Lord chooses.

Blessings,
Brad

… then they are about 3 seconds from bowing their knee before Jesus face to face and confessing that He is Lord.

And you can honestly say that you can see Jesus pulling the trigger?

Lord, forgive me if I err.

BradW,

You definitely said it way better me. I'm a firm believer of sovereign grace. I tried not to bring out the whole 'choice' issue on this thread.

However, I said "even if". What's wrong with that, we do make mistakes. It's just never mistake to defend against anything anti-Christ, ever.

Here, I need to leave the thread and to adhere ot Mike Balong's warning.

Thank you :)
mamaluk

In ANY situation, I [i]really[/i] can't see Jesus taking ANY life outside of Judgement Day. Maybe that's where we primarily differ. I believe that He's stored up His wrath for that purpose on that Day.

As for Flight 93, indeed, thank God for those men who caused the hijackers to crash/land the plane. Curious to note though, that those brave folks never directly harmed the terrorists. Reports have said that they never got into the cockpit as they charged it. Maybe God was intervening.
Vengeance is still the Lord's I believe.

In ANY situation, I really can't see Jesus taking ANY life outside of Judgement Day.

Not even capital punishment? Those who commit capital crimes are volunteering for captial punishment. Vengence is not part of the equation.

For what it's worth, it is reasonable to assume that before they breached the cockpit, the Americans on 93 had to 'pacify' terrorists in the passenger area.

MC

Good question, Compton.

True, if you commit crimes knowing the consequences, you volunteer yourself for those consequences.

Capital punishment is man's justice. I agree that the punitive and judicial system in North America is far too slack and needs to have some MAJOR amendments in order to provoke and create incentive for people to abide by the law. Something similar to the fear of the Lord would be a good thing, methinks.

Our legal system is definitely not perfect from whatever stance you hold, but I'm reminded of Jesus and Mary. The law of the land said that she was to be stoned for her adultery, so Jesus quickly obeyed and picked up a well-rounded rock, dug His feet in the ground and made His arm ready to fire.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but this obviously was not the case. Jesus chose life rather than death.

(Let's not get off track with the capital punishment issue, k?)

Anyone who enters into someone else's home to do harm to a family enters at his own risk and volunteers for the results of such action.

Do you post a sign outside your doors and windows that says "Anyone entering this house with the intention of harming the occupants has thereby acknowledged that their lives may be in danger by the lawmaker who resides within."??

As for self-defense, if we are 'dead to self', as we necessarily should be with respect to being a Christian, what is it that you're defending?

This is why the laws in most states allow for self defense.

Again, law of man, not God.

If you attack and subdue a burglar who is burglarizing your house, you let the Devil win. The true Christian way would be to follow the Spirit... maybe God wishes for you to witness to this man, boldly. Maybe God wishes to let you be burglarized. But to presuppose that you must use force against this man, is wrong. The Devil loves it when you repay evil with evil. The true Christian way is letting God protect you and your children. If a burglar comes in, let God take care of it.

I think this is a valid position to take as a single adult Christian. In fact, it may be the preferred way. However, in my opinion, any man who has these convictions owes it to his future wife to not marry her, and to his unborn children to not bring them into this violent world. Paul warns us that if we get married we will have earthly concerns to deal with. When I got married I realized that I was taking a spiritual vow...to honor and protect another human being without thought of the cost to my own life. My repsonsibility to my wife and children prempts my concern for an intruder.

We want to be led by the Spirit, and we should not assume this is a mystical leading. If you are married and fathering children, rest assured God has charged you with protecting them, as much as in your power. Marriage is God's earthly institution, and it's not just for procreation. One day we will all be glorified with perfect love and marriage's closed love won't be needed, but in this realm a man's strength is provided by God for the covering of his family.

MC

Double post ...

Ah, Mike ... Let me echo Krispy here, very, very well stated.

The problem I keep seeing come up far too often even beyond this particular conversation is one of casting off to the future. I know it is a broken record and one of these days I will quit apologizing for it...

How often are we dealing in hypotheticals? "If this were to happen I would_____" A huge part and parcel of this life we live even as saints is one of trust and having to lay down even that which we do not understand, including our very lives as Mike well pointed out. To overlook the tension and inner turmoil of a saint that is a soldier as well (as example) and as has been expressed here by more than a few to launch off onto a "what if scenerio" is to deal with things from the wrong mentality.

It would seem obvious enough and from what our own experience has shown us that the normal course of events in situations is to react from what has already been built in when it is called for and to not react when it is not necessary to do so.

There are a lot of things that go on in this world that do not fall into easy catagories and until one is faced with them in real time ... all the rest is merely speculation and hyperbole.

I don’t have a Clint Eastwood complex!)

Someone asked what it is I am protecting. Show me where I said ANYTHING about protecting property. You cant because I never said anything about property

I respect and agree with your views of protecting your spouse/family, and let me assure you that if someone was trying to harm my wife I would be between that person and her before they could even touch her. Although this is getting into the hyperbole and speculation that Crschk spoke about, my wife and I have discussed this and have both agreed that we will not compromise obeying God's commandments should one of our lives ever be on the line. Knowing that Christ is our first Love and that all others, even each other, take a distant back seat to loving Him ("If you love me, obey My commandments"). We both have the assurance of our salvation and trust that God will keep us in His Mighty Hand and deliver us from or TO whatever He deems necessary for us. My wife's trust in me is based on my trust in the Lord.

I'd still like to see solid New Testament scripture that supports the view that would condone the taking of another's life or even bringing physical harm.

Amen, Krispy.

If you go back and read all that I have written... I havent really addressed defending myself. Everything I have said has to do with protecting others.

As I said before... bad things happen when good men do nothing.

Krispy, I praise God that He used the testimony of soldiers in causing your conversion. God does use bad things to bring about good. (I'm obviously talking about the war being bad). He also used 9/11 to bring about some spiritual awakening in the nations.

Your reasonings are very convincing but they don't sound scriptural.

As asked a couple of times before, if anyone can soundly prove out of the NT scriptures(OT being [i]physical[/i] Israel, NT being [i]spiritual[/i] Israel) the validity and condonement of physical violence, please show us. With that being in short supply, this turns to be a foolish discussion of scripture for non-violence vs. personal belief/conviction.

Blessings to all.

[b]Luke 22:35-36[/b]

Then [b]Jesus asked [/b]them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.

He said to them, "But [b]NOW if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and BUY ONE[/b]. 37It is written:

At the brink of the King and His earthly kingdom being rejected,The Lord's admonitions altered.

Frankly, I haven't seen anyone on this thread who is pro-war or pro-violence, condoning or advocating the use of violence. Even the Lord Jesus foreknew as one could see in the above verses, before He was crucified, that without Him as the earthly King and His justice and His laws, we would find ourselves entangled or challenged by evil.

Whether it be self-defense or nation-defense, it is a necessary 'evil', defending physical attacks in safeguarding and carrying one's responsibility as either overseers of a country or as parents, is entirely scriptural, especially when one is defending against those who are of the Anti-Christ.

Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God, ( the ENTIRE Word of God , not extracted pieces of It ). The extraction of the above verses must also be read and understoond within the entire context of the Kingdom message in all of the synoptic gospel books, just as "love your enemies". Or in the Ten Commandments "thou shall not kill [b](murder)[/b]".

Excellent! praise God!

Matthew Henry has helped me a lot throughout the years.

But the sword of the Spirit is the sword which the disciples of Christ must furnish themselves with. Christ having suffered for us, we must arm ourselves with the same mind (1Pe_4:1), arm ourselves with an expectation of trouble, that it may not be a surprise to us, and with a holy resignation to the will of God in it, that there may be no opposition in us to it: and then we are better prepared than if we had sold a coat to buy a sword.

I think Mr. Henry makes my point very well, thank you.

Dear Brothers:

It's a happy thing for me to see how you love the Word so much.

The Sword of the spirit, as we all know, is the Word of God. Your points and my points are not relevant , if He said to prepare with a sword, we do, if He said not to harm others, we don't. Everything else, He will make the call.

Bradw,someday when you encounter physical danger , God might just deliver you with physical 'sword', may be by a police weapon, even by a pot or a pan :).

KrispKittr, God might just enable you to fight off physical threat with prayers instantaneously as HE did with me once when I was a young girl.

GOD delivered me once in NYC subway from physical assault when all I prayed was "God, please help" while reaching for a pair of scissors from my bag.

This thread again is about those who are in the battlefield. I am sure that there are a lot of miracles everywhere in the desert, even brother Paulwest here gave us his testimony of how God delivered him from deployment.

It's heart-aching and very sad for me, however, to see us who are sitting in our air conditioned buildings to 'condemn' those Americans who are out there in 126 degree heat,by choice or not, as if they are some blood-thirsty warmongers.

In my mind, it shouldn't matter, whether they be policemen, firemen, or soldiers, they really are trying to defend those that are evil, those that are against the Lord.

It will be great, if our Lord enables all the armed force to just fall on their knees to pray and toss out all weaponaries, but the Lord apparently hasn't chosen to do so. If we believe in His sovereignty, we can only leave it at that totally, totally, and just try to pray and show kindness to those who are already out there.

Too hard, just too hard for the God and country loving Americans to have to bear 2 'crosses', one from the true enemy, and the other from the Christians, don't you think?

Faith, sometimes if not all the time, is to trust God's sovereign will for our lives, armed, unarmed, peace or danger.

sorry so long

sigh....

let's please do pray daily for them, especially those that are of the Lord's 'household' out there

thank you and thank you too Bradw

What are you going do? Cut that verse out of your Bible because it doesn’t fit the point you are trying to make?

I pray that God will reveal His purposes to us all because none of us [i]really[/i] know Him. But on that Day, we will see Him face to face. Amen.

Amen. May God bring all of our loved ones home safely.

Maranatha!
Brad.

Absolutely Krispy!

No worries on this side of the computer. Rest assured. I don't think that we're going make any other progression though. We've both made our cases and I feel we have come to a mutual impass.

I look forward to more discussions on SI with you and others as this was my first engaged forum. Thanks for making it challenging and enjoyable as I'm only 4 years old in the Lord.
I'm very encouraged that I could 'hold my own' against a more experienced brother.

Bartle,

Where did you get this from, thats what I am trying to figure out. I know you have a transcript about what was said, but that still doesnt tell me that someone out in cyberspace completely made that up.

Please provide me with the source of your information, not what was said.

I am not doubting what YOU say, but I would like to know the source of the info.

On a side note, my brother emailed me yesterday to let me know that he got to Iraq safe. He is currently waiting for the other troops to meet his crew before they actually drive to their home base. Thank you for your kind words that last post you had, that does mean a lot to me and my family.

:-D :-D

Thank you Krispy,

And God Bless

I'd just like to say thanks for the ability to read and partake in an open discussion about these matters without people losing their cool.

I'm sorry I missed it. I am still unsettled on these issues myself.

Some points I would like to make though, and forgive me if I vurge off the path of Killing/war

Refering to the hyperthetical earlier, that if someone molested their son etc. I was reminded strongly of the Fact that God allowed worse than this to happen to his son (who by the way was innocent, unlike us who all deserve hell). And not only did he allow it, but if anyone would repent, they are fully forgiven!! Not even to face the justice system !!!

Praise God for his mercy!!!
I am glad that he doesn't hold me to true justice!! (though he will hold me accountable)

And I am reminded of the parable of the servant who owed much, yet was harsh on his own servant who owed little. I pray that I may never be found withholding mercy.

Also as far the selling your cloak to buy a sword. For the absolutly no violence view point. (This may be way off, tell me the truth)
Is it possible that swords may have been carried to "clear the way" through bushes and thickets etc? Rather than for violence?

It's nice to come to theological conclusions, but I think we all agree that we would all be better off spending more time prayer for the government,for the soldiers, for our enemies, and for those who will loose their lives, and for one another, rather than hypothesising about the ethics of what the bible says will happen.

Your brother Ashley

Krispy,

As I see it, with all objectivity, Bartle may have indeed misunderstood to whole of your post but he definitely is right in one thing...you do have a whole lot of national pride. I've noticed that throughout numerous threads that I've read through.

As your brother in Christ, I submit this observation to you and you may regard or disregard it as you please.

In Christ,
Brad.

Beloved brothers in His Bond,

The Lord would have us to live with our citizenship in heaven. Sadness overwhelms me following this thread.

Each of you on this thread has some very sound points, and each of you posted with much convictions and even painful emotions. At times, I see one torn between love for the country and defence for God's precepts.

We speak at times, as one of Job's 3 so-called friends :). Through our own wisdom, our own experiences and our own emotions or what not.
The glorious thing is, nomatter what's said or experienced, when we cast our eyes back on the Cross, what does any of anything matter? What does matter, is , however, that we who are truly in Christ to love one another with much forbearance and patience. For such pleases our Lord.

Only to remind ourselves of tender-heartedness, forgiveness, forbearance, patience, kindness, as according to Scripture. This is not cliche, this is what we learn of ICor13, and this has to be our endeavor.

Forbear each others' views, thoughts, experiences, emotions, draw out our compassion for each other, knowing that we too err and behave unseemly here and there, past or present and especially when we see others suffering or struggling, pray.

The Apostle Paul said for us to esteem others higher than ourselves. We are not perfect in the flesh, and we all have issues, heartaches, sufferings, misunderstandings....but while we fellowship, our focus should only and always be on that wonderous Cross, where we see first hand, the Lord's humility and sacrificial love. IT has overcome ALL, you, me, yours, mine.....

We Christian Americans all appreciate our country, yet we all hate the wrongs of it but rejoice with it's righteousness.

Don't let satan tear down the brotherhood, even here on SI. Don't defend ourselves, defend all that is in the Kingdom and it's King, with His help.

saluting to the Lord and His soldiers in Christ, whatever kind of battlefield they are in.

In Christ,
mamaluk

So the Bible forbids the use the sword, and it also approves the use the sword.
Moses got in trouble for killing an Egyptian, and David was a hero for killing “the Egyptian”.
Israel angered God for going to war, and also Israel was blessed for going to war.
War is an outcome of sin, and war is a means of divine judgment.
Divine judgment can lead to destruction, and it can lead to salvation.
War produces horrendous evil, and war also produces revivals.

It seems like God’s law doesn’t look so black and white. Are we here trying to do create a workable formula? I wonder, are we asking the wrong question: “Is it wrong to kill?”

Maybe a better question to ask is this: “What is God’s perfect will for MY LIFE? Now, I didn’t say what is “good”. Incidentally, I just listened to Art Katz sermon “Be Ye Perfect” and realize that the good is the enemy of God’s best.

Krispy said: bad things happen when good men do nothing. I fear this quote could insight us to impliment the good (in our eyes) while missing God’s PERFECT?

Well, war is here to stay and THAT is biblical, no matter how vigorously one may protest it. So, I leave aside the countless hypothetical situation and ask, “Dear Lord, what is your desire for my life?

Krispy said

God programmed several instincts in us, and one of them is "survival".... "fight or flight".

What about the other defence - the “flight” responses – running away from perceived danger? God did call us to “turn the other check” and “rather be wronged”, etc. Of course that does not imply fear responses, but rather faith responses. Consider the horrendous societal tragedy of child abuse – where one or both parents have assumed the flight response and failed to intervene. Think of the scars that linger down the generations.

Most of us are not stronger then our perceived enemy. So how do we protect ourselves against an enemy who is bigger than us? If we fight we will lose for sure. If we flight in fear, God may judge us for lack of faith. (Whatever is not of faith is SIN) There is a lot that needs to be discussed here.

Think of the countless testimonials from Christians/missionaries in persecuted or primitive societies - about divine deliverance where the enemy is much bigger than them. Angels have surrounded missionaries who had spears coming towards them. Also missionaries have been murdered by spears. Either way, God used these situations to save people.

The following comment concerns me:

… just too hard for the God and country loving Americans to have to bear 2 'crosses', one from the true enemy, and the other from the Christians, don't you think?

Surely none of us believes that our nations are saved by our swords. What would God think of that view?

Diane

Good Afternoon,

My Name is Mr. Dorsey and I will be your pilot for today. Along side of me is Mr. Germosa who will be assisting me. We will be flying at an altitude of 20,000 feet
(6,000 m) fair-in-height. During our flight we will encounter some turbulence due to the climax as we cross over from one state to the next. I will be taking a short cut due to our 2 hour delay in Pittsburg. Our flight today is approximately 4 hours and 50 mins and our destination will be Buenos Aires, where the weather is 90 decrees and Sunny.

During our flight you will see the seat belt sign flash on when reaching turbulence and off when it is safe to walk aboard the aircraft.

For your enjoyment we will be serving 3 different box lunches for a cost of $5.00. I would also like to inform you that flying with us today first class is President Bush and President Kennedy – (What a unique style).

In the seat in front of you you will find some literature speaking to you about the Boeing 757 aircraft. Please Read;

The single-aisle Boeing 757 is in a class by itself when it comes to economics and airport performance. The 757 has the lowest operating cost per seat-mile of any single-aisle jetliner in its class and a lower cost per trip than any twin-aisle airplane.
The Boeing 757-200 is known for exceptional fuel efficiency, low noise levels, increased passenger comfort and top operating performance. The 757 offers versatility by reducing airport congestion; it can fly both long- and short-range routes and its broad use effectively lends itself to "hub-and-spoke" planning.

Here is an overview;

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Boeing Commercial Airplanes is the world's premier commercial jetliner manufacturer --
•\tBecause of its complete focus on airplane operators and the passengers they serve.
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One of four operating groups within The Boeing Company, Commercial Airplanes is headquartered in Renton, Wash., under the leadership of President and Chief Executive Officer Alan Mulally.

Please seat back and enjoy your flight and thank you once more for flying ~BeACE

((FastenSeatbelts))

You Hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said,
These people honorme with their lips, but their hearts are faraway, their worship is a farace, for they replace God’s commands with their own man-made teachings.

((Unfasten Seatbelts))

Evil words come from an evil heart and defile the person who says them, for from the heart come evil thoughts, murder (killing) you know the rest.

((FastenSeatbelts))

Oh No you don’t want to hear from, for now I speak and I will say what he wants me to say. But, you already knew this right. If you recall and please feel free to close the book why read it, were these not your words Clint East Wood at one time?

If you recall the beginning of this thread was Thou Shall Not Kill referring to Jesus speaking Love your enemies.

I have been meditating on this, and pondering this, and just waiting for God to reveal something to me. I have spent the last 4 days with this on my mind like you have no idea.

Jesus speaks about Love 77 times in his book but why because God is Love and what happens when you pray for what you call enemy we know who and what are enemy is and I must agree with Bradw and say Right On Bro! Pardon my slang or my misspell someone get that girl some glass PLEASE.

What happens when you begin to pray for others are they changed? Does the prayer reach them? Yes But What Happens To You? God Begins to change your heart, create in me a clean heart oh God, search my heart and see if there be any wickedness in it. Remove from me this heart of Stone and give me a heart of Flesh, let me feel the pain that others are in and please anoint my lips so that when I speak your words they may be used as a healing balm, and anoint them when your word must come forth as a sword – nice job in the mighty name of Jesus.

God begins to change your heart. Bless those who persecute you -- why because it is better to give then to receive, but what else happens it begins to change You inside.

I agree that God is a God of war, and yes you will find throughout scripture in the old testament proof of this. However, look closely who he chose and what did they do? They waited on Him and waited for confirmation. It is foolish to speak all of this, that, and the other don’t tell me tell your brother stuff, without first waiting on Him.
Did he tell you to say that, or did you just choose to say it out of your own free will.

((Unfasten Seatbelts))

I agree that Jesus is not a smurf in fact he was bold but he was wise and he knew when to speak and when to be quiet.

@copyright