The restraineing

[b]2Thes 2:3-6[/b] [color=990000]Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first[/color] (the great falling away, defection from truth), [color=990000]and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,
[b]:4[/b] and exalts himself above, every so-called 'god' or object of worship, and goes the length of taking his seat in the very temple of God, giving it out that he himself is God.
[b]:5[/b] Do you not remember that while I was still with you I used to tell you all this?
[b]:6[/b] And now you know [b]what[/b] restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time.[/color]
If we read corectly, in isn't a He or who, it is a what;
definite Article, Accusative case, Singular, noun

The Restrainer is: κατέχωv "katechōv" (kat-ekh'-own)
Strongs #2722
neuter, Verb, Preasent, active, participle, Accusative case, singular, noun
So, until the falling away, the restraining will hold down the son of perdition.

Most of us agree that the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" is now taking place, therefore, I belive that "what is now restraining" has been made currant and is not restraining any more.

This Scripture in Timothy is talking about the same time Paul calls the great falling away or the defection from truth in [b]2Thes 2:3
1Timothyy 4:1-3[/b] [color=990000]Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[b]:2[/b] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[b]:3[/b] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.[/color]
This is now happening with more intencity these days than ever before.

The verse in 2Thes 2:3 is corparate and 1Timothyy 4:1 is personal.
Apostasy or a falling away is greek: "ἀποστασία" (apostasia) ap-os-tas-ee'-ah Strongs #646
Feminine of the same as G647(divorce); defection from truth (properly the state), ("apostasy"): - falling away, forsake.

This whole theam is talking about leaving Truth which our faith is based upon.
[b]2Thes 2:10-12[/b] [color=990000]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[b]:11[/b] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie:
[b]:12[/b] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/color]

Now that we now it isn't a who, but a what, we are to know the seasons.
[b]Matthew 16:3[/b] [color=990000]And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can you not discern the signs of the times?[/color]
Jesus was shameing then for not knowing the season.
Therefore, it is very important that we know this so we may not be like the five out of the ten virgens that werte foolish, and now we must be even more diligent to hold fast;
Job 27:6, 1Thes 5:21, 2Timothy 1:13, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 4:14, Hebrews 10:23, Revelation 2:25, Rev 3:3

Hold fast is the same greek word for "Restrainer"

Again, it is the season of the apostacy, which we are in right now.

Before I would go to deep in a discussion, may I ask if your a Pre, Post, Mid, or Watch triber? Doug

may I ask if your a Pre, Post, Mid, or Watch triber?

Diane

Dougmore wrote:

Before I would go to deep in a discussion, may I ask if your a Pre, Post, Mid, or Watch triber? Doug

2Thes 2:3-6 says what it says no matter what view any one holds.

Logic on 2006/9/1 21:28:16

Most of us agree that the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" is now taking place, therefore, I belive that "what is now restraining" has been made currant and is not restraining any more.

At least one of us believes that the great apostacy began during the days of the apostles themselves. Have you explained what you think 'the restrainer' is/was and why you think it is no longer 'the restrainer'? Perhaps I missed it?

Nevertheless there is a "He" in the text. (2Thess.2:7) This He is neuter in gender. I believe that Paul is speaking of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer. He is restricting many little antichrists existing today (John 2:18) and the final antichrist. In verse six, the Holy Spirit is called to' ketechon (3588, 2722), or "that which withholdeth." This uses the neuter gender and corresponds to the phrase to' Pneuma (3588, 4151) "the Spirit," also found in neuter, (John 14:26). Verse seven uses ho' katechon, "he that letteth," denoting that the antichrist cannot do anything without the Spirit allowing.

The Spirit seems to be the restrainer.

The apostasy, that I believe is vary much present, could be this attack of humanism on the church. It seems more and more that all Americans are "Christians" but are filled with a pride full arrogance. Pride is on the increase and with it humanism is on the rise. People want "Gods wonderful plan" for this retched life and not the one to come. Doug

Dougmore on 2006/9/3 13:19:32 posted...

The Spirit seems to be the restrainer.

Most of us agree that the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" is now taking place, therefore, I belive that "what is now restraining" has been made currant and is not restraining any more.

philologos wrote:

Most of us agree that the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" is now taking place, therefore, I belive that "what is now restraining" has been made currant and is not restraining any more.

That would mean that the Holy Spirit had already been 'taken away' 2 Thess 2:7

[b]2Thes 2:7-8[/b] [color=990000]For the mystery of lawlessness is already working. Only when the Present Restrainer may be coming out of between[/color]
[b]the Present Pestrainer[/b]: Verb, Preasent, active, participle, nominative case(marks the subject of a verb, as opposed to its object), singular, masculine

[b]may be coming[/b]: Verb, 2nd-aorist(indicates completed action in the past),middle Deponent(denoting that the subject acts on or for itself,), subjunctive(implying hypothetical action or condition), third person, Singular

[b]:8[/b] [color=990000]And then will be unvailed the lawless one whom jesus shall be consume with the spirit of His mouth and will render usless by the advent of His presence[/color]

In verse #7, The Holy Spirit is the One in charge of the timimg in all things, therefore, the Holy Spirit is to move a way from holding back all this from happening.
HE is not totaly taken away, ofcourse, but only in that area of His work.

Logic on 2006/9/4 19:58:33
posted:

In verse #7, The Holy Spirit is the One in charge of the timimg in all things, therefore, the Holy Spirit is to move a way from holding back all this from happening.

philologos wrote:

I am not sure why you have supplied all the parsings. Your interpretation seems rather contrived to me. The plain sense of this verse is that the Restraining One will himself/itself be taken away. There is no sense of taking away a function of the Restrainer but rather the removal of the Restrainer himself. These verses are saying that the Lawless One will not be revealed until the Restrainer is out of the way.

[b]2Thes 2:7 το' [/b]the [b]γὰρ[/b] for [b]μυστήριον[/b] secret [b]ἤδη[/b] already
[b]ἐνεργεῖται[/b] is operating [b]τῆς[/b] the [b]ἀνομίας[/b] lawless, [b]μόνον[/b] only [b]ο[/b] the [b]κατέχων[/b] one detaining [b]ἄρτι [/b] at present [b]ἕως[/b] till [b]ἐκ[/b] out [b]μέσου[/b] of the midst [b]γένηται[/b] it may be coming.

For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now until coming out of the midst.

Furthermore, the holy Spirit cannot be totaly taken away because there will be people still getting saved in and after that time.
So my point is that the Holy Spirit isn't gone, but only stoped hindering.

"""Furthermore, the holy Spirit cannot be totaly taken away because there will be people still getting saved in and after that time.
So my point is that the Holy Spirit isn't gone, but only stoped hindering."""

This is where it gets sticky. When the Church is taken out, the reason the Holy Spirit was sent to be in the believer will no longer be needed. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Those that are saved in the tribulation will be saved by not taking the mark of the beast and the return to the Law of God by the two witnesses. Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

They will not need the Holy Spirit to teach them The Christ that is in them. That no longer applies to salvation at that time, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. When they loose their heads for Jesus Christ, that is the beginning of their salvation by works which in seven years will be started again by the King sitting on the Throne of David and he will rule with a rod of Iron not by His Spirit in the believer. That is when The Word must be written in their hearts.

Jeremiah 31:31-35 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, (((I will put my law in their inward parts,))) ((((and write it in their hearts;)))) and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

In Christ: Phillip

this is not contrived, it is a very stiff translation, taken to the most literal point.

ο κατεχων (ho katechOn) is the present participle of 'katechO' preceded by the definite article in the masculine. This signifies 'the restraining one'. The construction is used of John Baptist on occasion meaning the 'that baptizing one'. It focusses on the the identifying characteristic of 'that one'.

In 2 Thes 2:7 the sentence reads
"the restraining one is restraining until He (the restraining one) become out of the midst." 'become' is subjuctive so we could translate it..."until the retraining one may become out of the midst."

Perhaps to make my challenges clearer I ought to say that I am not convinced that 'the restraining one' is the person of the Holy Spirit at all. Consequently I don't have to struggle with the notion of conversions taking place with the Holy Spirit no longer present to accomplish them.

Your interpretation chooses to conclude that the Restrainer has not left the building but has only stopped working in this particular way. I can see why you would need to say so to support your view but it does not come from any exegesis of the passage.

You have created a perfectly circular argument based on your preconceptions of Tribulation and Rapture. You then say "the holy Spirit cannot be totaly taken away because there will be people still getting saved in and after that time."

Christinyou on 2006/9/5 7:17:02 posted:

"""Furthermore, the holy Spirit cannot be totaly taken away because there will be people still getting saved in and after that time.
So my point is that the Holy Spirit isn't gone, but only stoped hindering."""

This is where it gets sticky. When the Church is taken out, the reason the Holy Spirit was sent to be in the believer will no longer be needed.

Sticky? This is one of the places where this kind of dispensationalism becomes a positive swamp of difficulties. The idea that a later dispensation still awaits in which they will be 'saved by their works' is astonishing. There never was nor will be a dispensation in which people are 'saved by their works'.

Are you saying that the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah does not begin until the Holy Spirit has been 'taken away'? How can such things be? Ezekiel's exposition of the New Covenant says quite specifically that God's Spirit will be given to New Covenant believers.“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [u]And I will put my spirit within you[/u], and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
(Ezek 36:26-27 KJVS)

It seems to me that both the view of the Restrainer being the Holy Spirit or the Church is impossible. Reason being is that scripture seems to leave the warfare that takes place in the heavenlies to the Host of Heaven. Ephesians 6 re-reminds us that this warring continues to go on.

Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. (Daniel 10:12-14)

This is a familiar case, but I think it may shed light on the topic as it deals with the latter times.

Then he said, "Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come. "However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who [u]stands firmly[/u] with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

The reason why it seems to me that Michael fits 'better' is that [i]The Man of Sin[/i] appears to be a leader that will lead the world as if he were God Himself. The nature of the fighting in Daniel's times was with these 'princes' of nations. What do these princes do? They jostle and fight for power. This is serious warfare. It is a very real warfare also. There are hints of its goings on all over the scriptures. When Michael disputed about the body of Moses or when the angel smote Herod in Acts 12:23. When the Host of Heaven appeared II Kings 6:

Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host; and they came by night, and compassed the city about. And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, a host with horses and chariots was round about the city. And his servant said unto him: 'Alas, my master! how shall we do?' And he answered: 'Fear not: for they that are with us are more than they that are with them.' And Elisha prayed, and said: 'LORD, I pray Thee, open his eyes, that he may see.' And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw; and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

I don't have the mind power to put it all together, and I'm not about ready to go out in left field, but it seems to me that what is being 'restrained' is Satan and his bunch and that the 'restrainer' is Michael. That is not to undermine the working of the Holy Spirit or the Church; but God seems to have an order to these things. I have often thought that Satan will be cast out of Heaven and into the earth at some point. For now his carryings on take place in the heavenlies. But at some point he will be cast into the earth. And from earth he will be cast into the bottomless pit and from the bottomless pit into the lake of fire.

Satan is on a downhill slope. Since he said he would ascend into the Mountain of God and God said he would cast him into the sides of the pit- he has been going down! down! down!. Pride goes before destruction and fall. He is cast from the presence of God (3rd Heaven) and then cast from there into the 'heavenly realms' (Eph 6). From the heavenlies into the earth (Revelation 12:7-10). This would appear to me to be the point in which the Antichrist is revealed. He is then bound with a chain in Revelation 20 for 1000 years (whatever that means) and then 'loosed for a season'. From there fire from God comes down to destroy those deceived and the Devil goes into his final judgment to fulfill Isaiah 14:

5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. [u]He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.[/u] The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, [u]Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?[/u] Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. [u]Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.[/u] They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

It appears that many of the reformers believed that the restrainer was the pagan Roman emperors and their whole system of government which severely persecuted early Christians. The man of sin was already present with false doctrines as we can clearly see from the epistles but he was restrained from quickly spreading because of the persecution. Once heathen government adopted Christianity then the false doctrines and practices were unrestrained.

In Christ,

Ron

InTheLight on 2006/9/5 15:01:22 posted:

many of the reformers believed that the restrainer was the pagan Roman emperors and their whole system of government

InTheLight's: The reformers believed that the restrainer was the pagan Roman emperors and their whole system of government...

This seems to work out from a historicist view, yet I have trouble working it out as it essentially pits the enemy against himself (Satan in conflict with Satan). No Kingdom divided can stand, etc.

At this stage of my understanding

I like this attitude. I think it is dangerous to become dogmatic when it comes to the details of eschatology. The Jews messed up horribly about the prophecies of the First Coming of Christ because of their dogmatic views. They knew the 'when' (as some would say) but not the 'what' of His coming. We seem to know much of the 'what' but not the 'when'. A person's own personal desires (will) weighs heavily on their interpretation of end time prophecy. I have often asked folk about it and they seem to always conclude something like, "I just can't believe the Lord will allow His people to suffer, etc."

I just say be ready for what ever happens.

philologos wrote:

this is not contrived, it is a very stiff translation, taken to the most literal point.

It is not the translation that I was addressing but the interpretation.

Your interpretation chooses to conclude that the Restrainer has not left the building but has only stopped working in this particular way. I can see why you would need to say so to support your view but it does not come from any exegesis of the passage.

BTW, pre-wrath trib. :-o

Nice to see you back GrannieAnnie!

Quote: by Phiologos

""Sticky? This is one of the places where this kind of dispensationalism becomes a positive swamp of difficulties. The idea that a later dispensation still awaits in which they will be 'saved by their works' is astonishing. There never was nor will be a dispensation in which people are 'saved by their works'.""

Would you call not taking the mark of the beast and giving their head for a witness to Christ to attain their salvation a works. Especially in believing the two witnesses of the testimony of God. They believing now they must die for the witness of Christ. Ultimate works.

No death, but life for those that are in Christ before the tribulation. Life in Christ for pre-trib Christ ones. Death for a witness to Christ in the tribulation. We don't have to die to be saved, we are saved by Grace through the Faith of Jesus Christ. Our death does not save us but His Life does.

The are the works of the tribulation saints.
(1) FOR THE WITNESS (or for testifying)
OF JESUS,
(2) AND FOR (proclaiming)
THE WORD OF GOD,
(3) AND WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST,
(4) NEITHER HIS IMAGE,
(5) NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN (or on) THEIR HANDS.

In Christ: Phillip

Diane>>>>>pantriber>>>>that brought a much needed chuckle to my funney bone :-)

Logic on 2006/9/6 2:09:07 posted...

Would you say that it is the anti-christ himself that is holding back since verse 8 seems to put it in context?

The 'mystery of lawlessness' is already at work in verse 7 but the manifestation of the Lawless One in his own Parousia does not occur until the Restrainer is taken out of the midst.

The revelation of the 'man of Sin'occurs before the day of Christ (2:3

I think an important clue to the identity of the 'Lawless One' ( it is a pity that the KJV has broken the link between 'the mystery of lawlessness' in v7 and the 'lawless one' in v8) is Paul's reticence to name him. If this were the Holy Spirit why would Paul not say so? Why this discrete reference to 'when I was yet with you, I told you these things'? I think the most likely hypothesis is that Paul had said something in private that he did not want to say in a public letter. The best fit would be 'The Roman Empire'. The Thessalonians would remember well what Paul had said privately among them but by omitting the title from this public letter Paul protects both himself and those who received the letter from a charge of treason.

Christinyou on 2006/9/6 10:43:05 posted...

Would you call not taking the mark of the beast and giving their head for a witness to Christ to attain their salvation a works. Especially in believing the two witnesses of the testimony of God. They believing now they must die for the witness of Christ. Ultimate works.

bro Phillip

Would you call not taking the mark of the beast and giving their head for a witness to Christ to attain their salvation a works. Especially in believing the two witnesses of the testimony of God. They believing now they must die for the witness of Christ. Ultimate works.

so what shall we say about the martyrs who went before us since they all were martyred before the tribulation? or is it that you believe that all are saved by grace but each one has a different work to do?

No death, but life for those that are in Christ before the tribulation. Life in Christ for pre-trib Christ ones. Death for a witness to Christ in the tribulation. We don't have to die to be saved, we are saved by Grace through the Faith of Jesus Christ. Our death does not save us but His Life does.

i don't think that everyone who is a witness for Christ during the tribulation will be killed. the word speaks of them that were beheaded and those who didn't take the mark of the beast. it seems to me that some will die naturally in those days and some will be alive when He returns. i don't believe that the martyrdom of these saints buys them salvation but rather they are saved by grace and their dying for the cause of the Cross is [i][b]because[/b][/i] they are saved.

philologos wrote:

I think the most likely hypothesis is that Paul had said something in private that he did not want to say in a public letter. The best fit would be 'The Roman Empire'.

So, in order for the man of sin, the son of perdition to be revealed in his time, The European Union AKA the newly formed Roman Empire must stop restraing the lawless one from being revield.

The Roman Empire are the Ten horns, out of which the little horn comes.
In your oppinion, this means, the Ten Horns must be "taken out of the midst" by or with the little horn.

This can't be right.
[b]Revelation 17:12[/b] [color=990000]And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour [b][u]with[/u] the beast[/b].[/color]
Ref. Dan 7:7,20,24
[color=990000][b]:13[/b] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.[/color]

Could I sugjest that the one who is holding back now is the "Harlot" herself?

Example: How could the anti-christ do this if the Harlot was still around?....[b]2Th 2:4[/b] [color=990000]the one opposing and exalting himself [b]over [u]everything[/u] being called God[/b], or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God.[/color]

Proof text: [b]Revelation 17:16[/b] [color=990000]And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.[/color]

This verse could be when the Harlot comes out of the midst.

Logic said,

Could I sugjest that the one who is holding back now is the "Harlot" herself?

I never thought of that one before. This view should be taken into consideration. If I may ask, Were did you get this position? I would be interested in its origin.

bro Doug

Through prayerful study, realy.
Came to me and my friend just today as my friend and I was studying it.

Quote:

""so what shall we say about the martyrs who went before us since they all were martyred before the tribulation? or is it that you believe that all are saved by grace but each one has a different work to do?""

Would you say this is salvation in the old testament?

2Sa 23:5 Although my house [be] not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all [things], and sure: for [this is] all my salvation, and all [my] desire, although he make [it] not to grow.

1 Chronicles 22:9-13 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee. Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God. Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the LORD charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed.

Would you say this is salvation in the New Testament?

Ephesians 1:12-23 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Israel was cut off in regard to the mystery of Paul, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
Israel, that they might not see or hear until the fullness of the Gentile's be come in. When is this?

In Christ 146 times Paul spoke these words, thus separation the salvation of those who first trusted in Christ form those that kept the Law of Moses with animal sacrifice unto salvation, in separation of those that first trusted in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In Christ, In Christ, In Christ, by birth, not by looking forward to a Messiah that would save Israel When He Comes to David's Throne after the tribulation and in the Millennium. Then it will grow.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic on 2006/9/6 22:01:18
posted:

So, in order for the man of sin, the son of perdition to be revealed in his time, The European Union AKA the newly formed Roman Empire must stop restraing the lawless one from being revield.

The Roman Empire and its development into the harlot of Christendom would be fairly standard for Historicists and Preterists. The scarlet woman rides on the scarlet beast and her name is Bablyon, which is the way Christians referred to the city of Rome eg“The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.”
(1Pet 5:13 KJVS)

1 Peter 5:13 "the church at Babylon"

Peter gives it that name rather than its own, because, being escaped out of prison at Jerusalem, Ac 12:12,25, he would not have it known where he was. But how comes he, that had been so bold before, to be so timorous now? Did this become the head of the church, the vicar of Christ, and prince of the apostles? And is it probable he should live twenty-five years at Rome, (as they pretend he did), and yet not be known to be there? Wherever he was, he had Mark now with him, who is said to have died at Alexandria the eighth year of Nero, and Peter not till six years after. If Mark then did first constitute the church of Alexandria, and govern it (as they say he did) for many years, it will be hard to find him and Peter at Rome together. But if they must needs be to have Rome be meant by Babylon, let them enjoy their zeal, who rather than not find Peter's chair, would go to hell to seek it; and are more concerned to have
The first Pope of Rome be the seat of Peter than the born again church in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou on 2006/9/7 12:20:08 posted:

Peter gives it that name rather than its own, because, being escaped out of prison at Jerusalem, Ac 12:12,25, he would not have it known where he was.

I really don't understand the rest of your post at all.

bro Phillip
i'm rather confused and unsure of what you're trying to get across, could you simplify it please bro?

philologos wrote:

The Roman Empire and its development into the harlot of Christendom would be fairly standard for Historicists and Preterists. The scarlet woman rides on the scarlet beast and her name is Bablyon, which is the way Christians referred to the city of Rome eg 1Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is/was married to God.
[b]Revelation 17:2[/b] [color=990000] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.[/color] (Ref. Eze 16:26 You have also committed fornication with the Egyptians your very fleshly neighbors; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.)
[color=990000]

[b]:4[/b] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:[/color]
(Ref [b]Exo 28:5-9[/b] And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. b]:6[/b] they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work. [b]:7[/b]shall have the two shoulder pieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together. [b]:8[/b] And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen. [b]:9[/b] And you shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: and [b]39:1-29[/b]
[b]Jer 4:30-31[/b] And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though you clothed your self with crimson, though you decked yourself with ornaments of gold, though you rented your face with painting, in vain you shall make yourself fair; your lovers will despise you, they will seek your life. [b]:31[/b] For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that brings forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewails herself, that spreads her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers [b]1Thes 2:15[/b] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:)

[color=990000][b]:5[/b] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.[/color] (See note for v.9 Ref. [b]Isa 1:21[/b] How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.)

[color=990000][b]:6[/b] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.[/color] (Ref [b]Mat 23:34-37[/b] Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: [b]:35[/b] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. [b]:36[/b] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. [b]:37[/b] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! [b]Luke 11:47-51[/b] Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. [b]:48[/b] Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers. [b]:49[/b] Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: [b]:50[/b] That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; [b]:51[/b] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. [b]Act 7:58-60[/b] And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. [b]:59[/b] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. [b]:60[/b] And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.)

[color=990000][b]:9[/b] And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.[/color]
Note: There are really only a few choices that the seven mountains could be Babylon, Rome, or Jerusalem. I am prooving by Scripturethat it is Jerusalem as you could tell from my scripture references through out this chapter. The Seven Mountains are:
1) Scopus
2) Nob
3) "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence"
4) True Mount Zion, the Southeast hill
5) Ophel Mount
6) Fort Antonia
7) the Southwest hill or "old Mount Zion"
Or these:
1.) Mount Gared
2.) Mount Goath
3.) Mount Acra
4.) Mount Bezetha
5.) Mount Moriah
6.) Mount Ophel
7.) Mount Zion
Jerusalem is recognized by Israel and Zion, furthermore, God calls her a harlot in the book of Hosea and through out the old testement. the Tribulation is a time that God is dealing with Israel, [u]not Rome[/u]. The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem to rule and to take his seat in the very temple of God and claim to be God. from which the verses I started this post with.
[b]Eze 16:36-37[/b] Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; [b]:37[/b] Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. [b]Isa 1:21[/b] How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of justice; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.)

Logic on 2006/9/7 21:15:11 posted:

Peter was in Jerusalem when he wrote this, which is the Great Harlot.

God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is/was married to God.

It is generally agreed that "Babylon" in 1 Peter 5:13 is a cipher for the city of Rome. The great city in Mesopotamia was no longer such in the first century. Diodorus of Sicily (56-36 BCE) writes: "As for the palaces and the other buildings, time has either entirely effaced them or left them in ruins; and in fact of Babylon itself but a small part is inhabited at this time, and most of the area within its walls is given over to agriculture." (2.9.9) Strabo, who died in 19 CE, writes: "The greater part of Babylon is so deserted that one would not hesitate to say . . . 'The Great City is a great desert'." (Geography 16.1.5) Also, no church other than Rome was claimed in ancient times to be the resting place of Peter. The Sibylline Oracles (5.143-168; 5.434), the Apocalypse of Baruch (10:1-3; 11:1; 67:7), 4 Ezra (3:1, 28, 31), and Revelation (14:8; 16:19; 17:5; 18:2-21) also refer to Rome as "Babylon." There was a reason for connecting the Babylonian and Roman empires, as Norman Perrin writes, "Rome is called Babylon because her forces, like those of Babylon at an earlier time, destroyed the temple and Jerusalem" Raymond Brown Jesus and the Language of the Kingdom This kind of comment would be found in many places. There are some who would see Babylon as Euphrates Bablyon but from earliest times Christian writers identified 'Babylon' with Rome. It was the 'cess pit' of the world.

I don't understand your point about God dealing with Israel. What has Israel to do with 1 Pe 5:13?

philologos wrote:

I don't understand your point about God dealing with Israel. What has Israel to do with 1 Pe 5:13?

Where was Israel brought into captivity?
They are still in unbelief and harlotry.
Therefore, Babylon the Great is the Mother of Harlots, and since Israel is the Harlot, she is Babylon.

1 Peter 5:13 to do with babylon.

Where was Israel brought into captivity?

This verse is simply part of his closing greetings.

Therefore, Babylon the Great is the Mother of Harlots, and since Israel is the Harlot, she is Babylon.

If I may say something, Just because Israel is called a harlot does not mean that they are the last days harlot. Why couldn't it be the Catholic church? I don't want to offend any saved Catholics out there but that is a possibility.

Another possibility is that the harlot is a spirit. Kind of like the spirit of antichrist. That is what the church of Thyatira was falling to.

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that committed adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds" (Rev. 20-22).

Could this harlot be a spirit?

Dougmore on 2006/9/8 22:58:44 posted:

Could this harlot be a spirit?

philologos wrote:
This verse is simply part of his closing greetings.

Quote:

"""If I may say something, Just because Israel is called a harlot does not mean that they are the last days harlot. Why couldn't it be the Catholic church? I don't want to offend any saved Catholics out there but that is a possibility."""

Why could it not be the Baptist, Methodist, Church of God, The Evangelical Church, or in fact all Churches including Islam, Budist, and all other Churches that are outside the realm of Christ being The Only Way to salvation and being born again by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father in the believer, thus knowing the things of the Kingdom of God.

In Christ: Phillip

you might be right, but my main point is that the one who now restrains is the harlot.

Christianyou wrote,

Why could it not be the Baptist, Methodist, Church of God, The Evangelical Church, or in fact all Churches including Islam, Budist, and all other Churches that are outside the realm of Christ being The Only Way to salvation and being born again by the Incorruptible Seed of the Father in the believer, thus knowing the things of the Kingdom of God.

The reason for this thought is that Vatican city sets on seven small mountains. Rev. 17:9 says, "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteh." Jerusalem does not sit on seven mountains. But the Vatican city and Rome itself does. This is an important point that must not be over looked. bro. Doug

Christinyou wrote:
"Just because Israel is called a harlot does not mean that they are the last days harlot. Why couldn't it be the Catholic church? I don't want to offend any saved Catholics out there but that is a possibility

Another possibility is that the harlot is a spirit. Kind of like the spirit of antichrist. That is what the church of Thyatira was falling to.

However, Jesus sais this to them, "as many as have not this doctrine, which have not known the depths of Satan, as they are saying"(Rev 2:24)

Therefore. it is not a spirit as you say but a doctrine and a "so called knowledge", a false truth, that seems to touch the ocult"

philologos wrote:
I think it may well be but in the sense that the harlot is false religion who rides on the back of Rome.

bartle wrote:
... its just that you all are smarter than me, coz I am foolish and endeavour to know only Christ and Him crucified.....

We also Love His word and want to understand it better, furthermore we need to Study so that we may show ourselves aprooved, rightly dividing, expounding correctly the word of truth.

bartle wrote:
oh btw Logic, I strenously disagree with you that Israel is the 'harlot'. I pray that the Holy Ghost wipes this poisonous thought stain off your heart.

I know that God loves them and they are His Chosen people. However, they are still in stuborn unbelief and disobediant, they are still scattered (Lev 26:33, Deu 4:27-28, Deu 28:63-64, 1Ki 14:15-16, Jer 13:24, Jer 18:15,17, Eze 5:1-17, Eze 22:15) I sugjest you read these and know that Israel is still in these judgments.

[b]Rev 15:3[/b] [color=990000]And they sing [b]the song of Moses[/b] the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.[/color]
What is the song of Moses? It is judgment.
The 3rd part of his song is about God Punishing His enimies, but more aimed towards His People when they turn their backs on Him .(Deuteronomy 32:22-25)
So, this "poison stain on my heart" that you call it is my agreement to Gods Word. This "poison" is so that Israel will repent of there ways and be grafted back into there own tree.
So, do not think that I am smarter that you because I study more of the Bible to know much more than Christ and Him crucified.

For I know this if you want to read:
To understand how the sacrifice of Jesus satisfies God, we must know what God says. God uses His law of death on the account of sin to implement the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. God says, in [b]Romans 6:23[/b], [color=990000]"for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/color] and, [b]Deut.21:23[/b], [color=990000]His body shall not remain overnight on the tree (cross), but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who hangs on a tree is accursed of God.[/color]
Jesus was taken off the cross that same day He died so the curse of sin would stay on Him. [b]Lev.17:11[/b], [color=990000]For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the alter to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.[/color] [b]Hebrews 9:22[/b] [color=990000] for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin[/color], When Jesus shed His blood on the cross which is Gods’ alter, God accepted His sacrifice. In verification of Gods' acceptance, He raised Jesus from the dead. The resurrection is the basis of our Faith [b]1Corinth 15:14[/b] [color=990000]and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.[/color]
God lets there be a proxy (replacement for you & I) to take the judgment, but the proxy must not be guilty like the one accused or he would be taking the judgment for himself and not for us. So then the only person who could be with out the judgment of sin must not be from the corrupted bloodline of Adam. So that is where the seed of the woman comes in. In the bible, the seed is always from the man, The Hebrew word for seed is zera` {zeh'-rah} it can mean, semen virile (sperm), offspring, descendants, posterity, or children. The man would plant his seed into the woman. God said in [b]Genesis 3:15[/b] [color=990000]And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/color] Notice the term her seed. Mary was the mother of Jesus but Joseph, Mary's husband, wasn't the father of Jesus. Jesus was not from a seed of a man but conceived by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is sinless; therefore He can take our place of judgment.
He died on the cross, or we may call it a tree because it is made of wood, to take the curse of our sin and the curse of the law. [b]Galations 3:10[/b], [color=990000]for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.[/color] [b]Gal.3:13[/b] [color=990000]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/color] Remember that no one can ever keep the law. If someone could keep the Law of God there would be no reason for him to take Jesus as his savior.

Dougmore wrote:

Jerusalem does not sit on seven mountains. But the Vatican city and Rome itself does. This is an important point that must not be over looked. bro. Doug

Oops, sorry my geography was way off....

Logic wrote,

Because, as i said before, God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is/was married to God.

It is true that God is dealing with Israel. But if the church is still here then there will be some dealings with her.

What I'm trying to get at is, the Catholic church is still a section of the bride. And if the Catholic church becomes so corrupt that they are the harlot (which I hold to) then that would explain the punishment that they will receive. What has Israel done to the saints that couldn't be surpassed by the apostate Catholic church through the ages? I cant even compare the two. Lets leave the Catholics alone and look at the early Protestants. John Calvin murdered many Christians. Martin Luther, well we wont go there.

Quote,

"Therefore. it is not a spirit as you say but a doctrine and a "so called knowledge", a false truth, that seems to touch the ocult"

This is still the spirit of antchrist. We can call it a false doctrine, but behind every false doctrine is an evil spirit. There is no getting around that.

This harlot is riding upon the beast. She is using political power to achieve her goals. This harlot is directly connected with the revived Roman empire. She is riding on the beast with ten horns, Rev 17:7. Israel is not riding on the revived Roman empire. She does not have to for God has already revived her.

It is true that God will execute judgement upon Israel. But I believe that He will also execute judgement on the false church in the last days, the harlot.

bro Doug

bartle said,

I strenously disagree with you that Israel is the 'harlot'. I pray that the Holy Ghost wipes this poisonous thought stain off your heart.

This is not a poisonous thought. This is logic's interpretation of this particular end times scripture. And as I said before, we must take it into consideration.

HW said,

I am not asking a question out of a lack of knowledge, but rather I am wondering why 'we' have chosen the Holy Spirit to be the restrainer.

I personally had never heard of the Holy Ghost as being the restrainer until I started going to a Pre-trib only church. In all honesty I'm more concerned with living a holy life and obeying His commands rather than who the restrainer is. Maybe that sounds bad but its at least a definite command.

But inside me there is an interest in this topic. I've read this thread and see good arguments on all the different sides. And some not so good ones. Then again Logic has brought something new to the table and that makes things interesting.
I don't know who the restrainer is and don't really think any one does for sure. This is not a, Thus saith the Lord, kinda thing so I don't see how we can say with 100% that we have it all figured out. That in itself is a dangerous place to be. The Jews thought that they had the Messiah all figured out and He turned out to be opposite to many of their ideas. It is important that the believer remain some what flexible on issues such as; when we are going to be taken up, or who the restrainer is. The only thing we can say for sure is that both are going to happen and we must look up, for our redemption is near.

bro Doug

Dougmore wrote:

This is still the spirit of antchrist. We can call it a false doctrine, but behind every false doctrine is an evil spirit. There is no getting around that.

Dougmore wrote:
This harlot is riding upon the beast. She is using political power to achieve her goals. This harlot is directly connected with the revived Roman empire. She is riding on the beast with ten horns, Rev 17:7. Israel is not riding on the revived Roman empire. She does not have to for God has already revived her.

Dougmore wrote:
This is not a poisonous thought. This is logic's interpretation of this particular end times scripture. And as I said before, we must take it into consideration.

Healingwaters wrote:
Why is the Holy Spirit the restrainer?

Logic wrote,

Ive told you what those seven mountains are already, so it must be Jerusalem .

Just because you named seven hills in Israel does not lock down your theory.
We must stay flexible on an issue such as this.

There are seven hills in Rome,
1.Aventine
2.Caelian
3.Esquiline
4.Viminal
5.Quirinal
6.Palatine
7.Capitoline

You also said,

The beast can not be the revived Roman empire because Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.

I honestly see no defense for your argument in this verse. I still put to the table that this could be an apostate false church under the control of the Vatican, which is located on seven hills in Rome. There by intertwining the two into one.

bro Doug

Logic on 2006/9/9 17:21:51 posted

In the book of Revelation, God turn His attention from His grafted in church to the origonal branches to graft them back in when the fulness of the Gentiles is complete

What you are saying is 'this also fits into my hypotheses'... but I can't accept your hypothesis.

philologos wrote:
You are using one assumption to prove another assumption. Can you not see how circular this argument becomes?

What you are saying is 'this also fits into my hypotheses'... but I can't accept your hypothesis.

I don't understand how that is an assumtion
How am I takeing for granted aything in the text you quote? Doesn'nt it imply what I make ot out to say?
If not, please explain.
I've always though Israel was the crux of prophetic times, or the "time clock of prophecy".

I can't accept either of these assumptions.

Hi philologos,

I may have missed it but what/who do you believe the restainer is?

bro Doug

I think the Restrainer was probably the Roman Empire. The removal of the secular power of Rome opened up the way for the religious power of the Roman church.

(please note my sign-off, especially the final line!!)

Have you ever studied about the restrainer as being the Holy Spirit? The Greek seems to allude to that interpretation.

bro Doug

Have you ever studied about the restrainer as being the Holy Spirit? The Greek seems to allude to that interpretation.

I suppose you are alluding to the use of the different pronouns in “And now ye know [u]that[/u] which restraineth, to the end that [i]he[/i] may be revealed in [u]his[/u] own season. For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is [u]one that[/u] restraineth now, until [i]he[/i] be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of [i]his[/i] mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of [i]his[/i] coming;”
(2Th 2:6-8 ASV)
In the above quotation I have underlined the words which represent pronouns in the original Greek. The italics signify words which are not in the origanl Greek but have been supplied by the translator to make easier sense to English speakers.

We must be very careful to distinguish between genders and sexes in Greek as in many European languages. To say that a word has a 'female gender' has nothing to do with its 'sex'. In French and German and Greek the word 'door' takes the feminine gender; it has nothing at all to do with 'sexual gender' this is grammatical gender. It is an interesting exercise to guess why some words have taken masculine and some feminine gender but ultimately fruitless.

So in all the instances above where you have a word in italics there is no sense of 'sexual gender'. The nouns to which the words are attached will have grammatical gender. Let me illustrate: many folks are offended by the fact the the KJV seem to refer to the Holy Spirit as 'it'..eg “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
(Rom 8:16 KJVS)This is effectively a mistranslation although it is a literal translation! The first word in the sentence is 'αυτο' which the KJV has translated as 'itself'. But Biblical Greek properly doesn't have a word which is an exact equivalent of our 'itself' or 'herself' or 'hisself'. It has personal pronouns whose 'case' is determined by the grammatical gender of the noun. In this case the noun is Πνευμα which is grammatically in the 'neuter' gender'. It does not mean that 'a spirit' is neuter but just that the word is neuter. Consequently, although Tyndale et al were very 'accurate' in translating the word as 'itself' in fact they have implied something in the English translation which is not there.

OK back to 2 Thes 2 and more Greek intricacies! There is a Greek construction which joins a definite article to a participle to give the sense of characteristic. eg John frequently used the construction 'the (one) believing', which the KVJ renders as 'whosoever believeth' and which really means 'the believer'. The man (or woman) characterized by their continual 'believing'. (This has important implications for the 'golden verse'. John 3:16)

2 Thess 2:6,7 has this construction twice.“and now, [u]what is keeping down[/u] ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time, for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only [u]he who is keeping down[/u] now [will hinder] — till he may be out of the way,”
(2Th 2:6-7 YNG) The definite article + the participle create the sense of 'The Restrainer'. Youngs, above, has tried to show the fact that in the fist instance the definite article is grammatically neuter, while in the second instance the definite article is in the 'masculine'. This means that the writer was thinking about a neuter noun in the first instance and a masculine noun in the second. Some have concluded that this means he is thinking of something like 'The Empire' for the first use and something like The Emperor for the second use.

This would fit well with the comment I have made earlier that for some reason Paul chose not to say plainly what or who the Restrainer was. What hypotheses can we find for this? The Christians of the next century were united in their conviction that Paul was referring to the Roman Empire. Why was he so cryptic? This was a semi-public letter which, as with other letters, would ultimately be copied and passed on to many other congregations. If this letter had said 'The Roman Empire' it would not have been Paul who suffered for it (I have no doubt that such would NOT have made him cautious) but the sufferers would have been the people who were found in possession of the letter. For their sakes, not his own, he reminds them that he had already explained these things to them.

My apologies for any for whom this is just too much information. :-( I post it for the sake of those who are digging a little deeper.

philologos,

This may interest you concerning your interpretation of the restrainer. I can't say for all, but many Calvary Chapel pastors believe that the Roman empire never died completely and is still around to this day. They do believe it will be revived but just as the church is still around, just in need of revival, so to the Roman empire is still around but in need of being revived.

Dougmore wrote:
This may interest you concerning your interpretation of the restrainer. I can't say for all, but many Calvary Chapel pastors believe that the Roman empire never died completely and is still around to this day. They do believe it will be revived but just as the church is still around, just in need of revival, so to the Roman empire is still around but in need of being revived.

...many Calvary Chapel pastors believe that the Roman empire never died completely and is still around to this day. They do believe it will be revived but just as the church is still around, just in need of revival, so to the Roman empire is still around but in need of being revived.

I tend to think more of 'spirits' than of 'territories'. I am not using 'spirits' in the sense of demons but of 'trends'. I have some theories of how these pictures connect but they are only theories.

It sounds as though 'Calvary Chapel pastors' think more in terms of future events while without closing the door to future events I tend to see much New Testament prophecy has having been fulfilled. eg Matt 24:1-22 I would see as fulfilled during the Revolt of AD 66-73. That does not mean there will not be future developments along the same lines. History does seem to repeat itself. But it does mean I don't see the need for as much future fulfillment of prophecy as do many.

Who is our war with, the Roman Empire? If that is our war, who is the strategist behind its assault on us? Or is the assault on God. Who is the one that keeps all this, in at least keeping all that is against God from overwhelming the Kingdom of God? Is this God's Plan or is it the Roman Empire we are fighting against?

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Who is the General of wickedness in high places, and who is the One that keeps him in Check and from winning this wrestling war.

Ephesians 6:13-18 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

It seems that the one that is the One that is in the offensive position of this war is the Sword of the Spirit, using the word of God to keep the arrows of fire from killing the saints. The full Armour of God is Christ Jesus and The Holy Spirit. Armour is what keeps and restrains the assault on not only the saints but the kingdom of God on this earth which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. We are the temple being protected from the evil one, it is the Holy Spirit who is in us forever that restraineth the evil one by believers putting on what we already have. Christ in us our life and the Holy Spirit in us our power in that life.

I think we need to look at 2 Thess again and see that He that restraineth is the Holy Spirit, not the Roman empire or even the Roman Catholic Church in whom the restrainer keeps in check, until The Holy Spirit takes away the restraining power of the Body of Christ in individual believers, collectively His Church being offered to the Father, when Christ comes for His Bride.

In Christ: Phillip

Who is our war with, the Roman Empire? If that is our war, who is the strategist behind its assault on us? Or is the assault on God. Who is the one that keeps all this, in at least keeping all that is against God from overwhelming the Kingdom of God? Is this God's Plan or is it the Roman Empire we are fighting against?

[color=0000ff]“For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.”
(Hab 1:6 KJVS)[/color]

God may well have used Communism to suppress the extremes of the anti-semitic Russian Orthodox Church. It is certainly true that as soon as Communism toppled, the Russian Orthodox church republished the Protocols and began to stir antisemitism again.

So God sometimes uses one evil power to restrain another. Babylon (the Chaldeans) restrained the worst excesses of Assyria. The Persians brought God's rebuke upon the Babylonians etc The Roman Empire was a vicious police state but God used it to subdue the world as part of His preparation for the gospel.

philologos wrote:
The Christians of the next century were united in their conviction that Paul was referring to the Roman Empire.

doesn't this mean that the man of sin, "the son of perdition" is the "restrainer himself" because he is in or with the newly formed Roman Empire which is the Ten horns, and he comes from the ten being the little horn.

why would the newly formed Roman Empire restrain the lawless one from being revield in the first place if they are one, since you are saying that the Roman Empire(the Ten Horns) must be "taken out of the midst" by or with the little horn?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Ref. Dan 7:7,20,24
:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Then for the Christian why the exhortation of Paul?

Ephesians 6:10-13 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Christ is our breastplate of Righteousness. He that is in us is the only one that is Righteous. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Christ is our girder of truth? Christ Jesus by our Anointed Teacher the Holy Spirit.

All the Armour is Christ and why are we told to put it on? Who has won our war? Who is that restraineth and keep us in truth? The power of the Holy Spirit who is God's Worker on this earth in this present age. Christ's work is finished, He is now the Seed, born again in the believer, and The Blessed Comforter, The Holy Spirit Teacher is our power that restraineth and makes the Armour work, and when He that is in this capacity is taken up with the Church, in the believer, that restraining power that is for those in Christ is not needed anymore. The Holy Spirit will be here for those that don't take the mark of the beast to give them strength and assure them when they are beheaded, lest not any person would be a witness for Christ in the great tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Phillip,

At this time I would say that I believe that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer. But through this discussion I'm taking a look at the harlot as being the end times false church. We know that Rome is going to have some dealings in the end and that the Vatican is in Rome, on seven hills. That makes far more sense to me than Israel being the harlot. Philologos and I agree that the Romans have something to do with it only our times are opposite. I think that Philologos is closer to what I think, (could be wrong), than Logics interpretation. No offence to Logic.

bro Doug

Dougmore wrote:
We know that Rome is going to have some dealings in the end and that the Vatican is in Rome, on seven hills. That makes far more sense to me than Israel being the harlot.

I can understand that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer, but not the above.

Logic said,

I can understand that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer, but not the above.

Sorry Logic. I did not intend to say that the restrainer is Rome (past/future), Israel, or even the harlot herself. First, I'm not even sold that the harlot is in any relation to the restrainer. I believe that the harlot is a individual apart from others given in prophecy. Same as the restrainer is its own individual. I see no lock down tight argument for the restrainer being Israel just because they were a harlot and are still acting like one.

And as for Rome being (or was) the restrainer, that would make me have to say that large parts of Revelation and Matthew 24 have already passed. Which I don't. Granted that the destruction of Jerusalem and the seven churches were in that time, I view most prophetic things to still come.

This is what I said concerning another possible restrainer,

Quote

At this time I would say that I believe that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer. But through this discussion I'm taking a look at the harlot as being the end times false church.

I still held that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer but that the false church in Rome could be the harlot. I see the restrainer and the harlot as two different beings.

This was one of my first posts dealing with this subject.

Quote

Nevertheless there is a "He" in the text. (2Thess.2:7) This He is neuter in gender. I believe that Paul is speaking of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer. He is restricting many little antichrists existing today (John 2:18) and the final antichrist. In verse six, the Holy Spirit is called to' ketechon (3588, 2722), or "that which withholdeth." This uses the neuter gender and corresponds to the phrase to' Pneuma (3588, 4151) "the Spirit," also found in neuter, (John 14:26). Verse seven uses ho' katechon, "he that letteth," denoting that the antichrist cannot do anything without the Spirit allowing.

Its the only position I hold to at this time. I cant base a position on Rome being the restrainer because I believe that they never fully left and we still see the power of Rome emerging more and more. Not less. also if Rome was the restrainer and they actually did fall completely them when they are revived in the last days that would mean the restrainer had returned. I don't get that because it sounds like a contradiction.

In Christ, bro Doug