Once Saved Always Saved?

Hi Richard, you sure opened a can of worms with this one....

I hope you find what you are looking for.

Be Blessed.

Let’s reason together. Ask yourself this question: If someone is saved, that is they are on their way to Heaven, then how did they get that status in the first place? Well they got it by Grace (a word that seems foreign to many people who believe you can lose your salvation). What is Grace? It is unmerited favor. It is getting something that you didn’t deserve and will NEVER deserve. How does someone get this Grace? They get it through faith. What is faith? It is believing in something you can’t see. It is taking God at His Word and believing it even though you can’t see the “proof” of it. But faith goes further than that. If we look at the rest of Scripture, then it must include repentance, because true faith must be followed by works. What kind of works? Well...good works. Works that show repentance. Obedience to Christ and His commands. Loving Him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. Yes, you aren’t saved by works, but you ARE saved TO works. The people that say works aren’t required by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, forget to read on to verse 10 of Ephesians 2. Such people have also not read the book of James or the book of 1 John. So someone is saved BY Grace, THROUGH Faith (which includes everything we just talked about). They are saved by the Blood of Jesus who washes away all our sins. If such a person...who TRULY was saved....then loses their salvation, we have to ask ourselves this question: Which sin or sins aren’t covered by the Blood of Jesus? Which sin or sins did Jesus’ Blood not have the power to save that person from? Is the Blood of Jesus not powerful enough to save us from ALL our sins? And if Jesus died on the cross for the sins of those who will trust in Him in the future, then how can that person who trusted in Jesus, and now has supposedly fallen away, take the punishment for his sins as well. That would be ludicrous! Only one person can be punished. Ever heard of the legal term “Double Jeopardy”? One person can’t be punished for the same crime twice and two people can’t be punished for the same crime.

Next, let’s look at a word that Paul used. Paul used the word “adoption” many times to speak of believers in relation to God after they Repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15, 23; 9:4; Ephesians 1:5; Galatians 4:5-6). This is the Greek word youiothesia and it means to be accepted by God as a son (or daughter). He used that term because he knew what it meant legally to the people of his time. He knew that it meant that someone who once wasn’t a child has now become a child. And guess what? Once you adopt a child you have them for good. They can never again be put up for adoption. That was true of the law in Paul’s time and it is also true of the law today. That child is yours for good. You can’t...let me repeat that...you CAN’T put that child back up for adoption. They are yours always and FOREVER. It is the same way with God. Once we are His children, we are ALWAYS His Children.

Then there is the concept of being sealed. This is the Greek word sphragizo and it is found in numerous places in the New Testament. Just take a look at 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30. A seal in the time of Paul was used as a means of identification. When seal was placed on a letter and sent to someone, the receiver could be assured that it truly was sent by the owner of that seal and that he approved of all the contents found within that letter. When an animal had a seal placed on it, it was a mark denoting ownership and denoting whose protection and care that animal was under. The verses listed above speak of God sealing us and not sealing us with just anything, but with the seal of His Holy Spirit. This backs up Romans 8:16 and 1 John 3:9. The believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. And the Holy Spirit “is given as a pledge (or down payment) of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:14). The word translated as “pledge” is the Greek word harrabon and it literally means a first installment which secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid; a payment that obligates the contracting party to make further payments. When you put a down payment on something (house or car for example) and then you sign the contract to purchase it, you are in legal obligation to go through with the agreement signed. God is saying here, in these verses, that He put His Holy Spirit inside of us as a down payment to us showing his pledge to fulfill his promise to save us and bring us into His glorious presence in Heaven someday. If someone is saved and then becomes “unsaved” does God then go back on His pledge, His promise? Does God break the contract with the believer who has now become an “unbeliever”? To say such a thing is to call God a liar.

What about this: when does someone lose their salvation? What sin causes someone to lose their salvation? Or how much sin causes someone to lose their salvation? At what point does God say, “Ok you are now not my child any longer, but if you start doing things right again I will make you my child once again.”? Would you ever disown your own biological child? I know that I wouldn’t and God is much more merciful and patient than I am. My son is of my own flesh and blood. And if we are God’s children then we are of His Blood that is the Blood of Jesus. If someone could lose their salvation, at what point do they regain it? James 2:10 say, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a Christian can lose his or her salvation and we reason correctly, that would mean that a person would lose their salvation every time they sin. How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you been saved? Are you saved right now? Remember what the True Definition of sin is: “Falling short of the Glory of God," (Romans 3:23) that is falling short of Jesus. There are other definitions of sin (Romans 14:23, 1 John 3:4), but this is sin in its truest sense. It is falling short of perfection in any way. It is falling short of Jesus, the Holy and Perfect One. Sin is not just breaking the Ten Commandments. If that is what you consider being a Christian or being Holy, then that is a shallow view of Holiness in my humble opinion. I would also say that it isn't a Biblical view of Holiness. Don't forget about James 4:17. Do you witness to EVERY single person that you can? Do you only spend your money on what you need and give the rest away to help others? Do you pray as much as you should? Do you read the Word as much as you should? Are you broken over the state of the world and the Church?

What does Jesus mean when He told Nicodemus that he must be “Born Again”? If Jesus believed in losing your salvation then why didn’t He say that you must be “Born Again and Again and Again”? Surely Jesus could see into the future that Nicodemus was going to sin again after he became Born Again. It would only make sense that Jesus would tell him the whole truth then and tell him that he must be Born again and again and again and again and again and even again and again if so needed.

Take a look for at Romans 8:29-30. It says, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” The ones God “foreknew” are His Children. The ones that God knew ahead of time (because He is God, is outside of time and sees everything at all times- past, present and future) were the ones He knew would repent of their sins and Trust in His Son Jesus Christ. Those are the ones that He predestined (NO God does not predestine or choose who to save and Not- God does NOT choose work in such a way) to be Conformed to His likeness. When I look back on my life before I became a Christian I see God working in my life. He was working on making me who He wanted me to be before I even became a Christian. Anyway, now to the point of this passage. It says, “these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” If some Christians “slip through the cracks”, if some become “unsaved”, then why doesn’t that verse instead say something like this: “these whom He predestined, some He called, those whom He called, some were justified, those whom He justified, just a few he glorified.” If a Christian can lose his salvation, that is what that verse would have to read. But this verse doesn’t say that. In fact, it makes it quite clear that every single one that is predestined (to be conformed) is called, each and every one that is called is justified and every single one that is justified is also glorified in Heaven.

Then just a little bit later in the same chapter, we have verses 38-39. They say, “For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So what can separate someone from the love that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord? That is, if someone is IN Christ Jesus Our Lord, what can separate from that Love; the Love that sent Christ to die on the cross for people like you and me who don’t deserve such a sacrifice. Most people, who believe someone can lose their salvation, believe it is the person’s actions (sins) that separate them from God after conversion. Well if that person is a “created thing” then even they can’t separate themselves from the love that is found “in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Then there is Philippians 1:6, "being confident that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

Can God no longer carry on HIS work of salvation that HE started in someone in order to bring it unto completion? God forbid we say such a thing! When God changes someone, He changes them! There are no two ways about it!

John 6:37-40 says, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will NEVER drive away. For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise them up in the last day. For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Where is there room in that Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians? It seems to say exactly what it says…that He will lose NONE.

Then there is John 10:27-30, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is great than all; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. I and the Father are one."

Same question for this one: Where is there room in this Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians? I know, I know, someone can walk out of God's hands, right? Notice it says that No One can snatch them out of God's hand. If that doesn't include people, I would like to know who Jesus is referring to when He says, "no one."

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water that I give him will NEVER thirst. Indeed the water I give him will become a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Once the fountain is open, it never runs dry. It is a wellspring of eternal life. The person will NEVER thirst again, because they have hungered and thirsted after righteousness and have been filled (Matthew 5:6). Jesus Christ is the only one who can provide that righteousness for them.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9, "He (Jesus) will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."

These are just a few of the things that someone who believes that a Christian can lose their salvation must overcome in order to believe such a thing. This is not an exhaustive list to backup “Once Saved Always Saved” in Scripture by any means. In my mind, believing that someone can lose their salvation goes against Scripture as a whole. But I was once one who believed such a thing. Therefore I still love the brethren who believe such a thing, even if they NEVER believe what I now believe. I can get along with any True Christian for the sake of the Great Commission, saving lost souls and storming the gates of Hell. There is power in numbers. One thing we can definitely agree on is this: if someone claims to be a Christian, yet lives in, practices and walks in sin, they are NO Christian AT ALL. Whether they lost it or never had it, they aren’t a Christian. One last thing I want everyone to keep in mind when studying Scripture and deciding which way they are going to believe. Don’t let your experience with people who believe OSAS or that you can lose your salvation influence how you believe. There are hypocrites in both camps (whether you believe they were once saved or never saved). Look into this subject objectively and with a clear mind, allowing the Spirit to speak to and looking into this subject through sound hermeneutics. God Bless you as you search- Jeremiah 29:13

RichardF,

This is a topic that I discuss with my co-workers quite often. We use to have three brothers working with us that were proponents of this belief. We had a fun time.
John chapetr 15, speaking of the vine and the branches is, in my opinion, a direct contradiction to this belief. Now I have never actually heard someone speak from the other side on this verse, but it seems to point very clearly to the belief that you can lose your salvation.
Also, in Revalation 3:11 God tells the Philadelphians to hold fast that no one takes thier crown.
OSAS teachers say that if you once had a moment of faith, then you are saved regardless of how sinful you are now. But that is in direct contradiction to Rev. 21:8, 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Rom. 1.
I've heard some of those teachers say you can "live like the devil" and still go to heaven.

this thread has laready been done, have a look in the archives, they had heaps of agree's and alot of disagree's, you should find it interesting.....God Bless :-)

Brother, all I can say is that this is a brave move! Elias and I work together and when one of those OSAS guys gets going they can get a little heated. The one thing that they had no explanation for was the blotting of a name out of the Lambs book of life. Revelation 3:4-5 is the letter to the church of Sardis and it speaks of this blotting. Needless to say they sat quiet for a while and never did give a good counter argument.

I don't know if you have ever heard of the historical name blotting or not. But in Paul's time all cities had a registry with all the names of its indwellers. If a person committed a crime that would disgrace the cities reputation the leaders would take ink and smear it over the condemned criminals name. Therefore ridding the offenders history from the city archives. This makes the scriptures that speak of blotting a little more festinating. bro. Doug

Dear brother,

I quite like Leonard Ravenhill when he said, "You say that you're saved, well, what are you saved from?"

richie

I love Paul's conclusion in his letter to the churches of Galatia when he wrote, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."-Galatians 6:14-16(kjv)
and...
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."-1John 2:15-17(kjv)
and...
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."-John 3:5(kjv)
So...How can one be saved, and not born again? There is man's interpretation, and there is God's interpretation...How can one be justified before God without having this experience of being "born again"?
AW Tozer wrote, "If we would find God amid all the religious externals, we must first determine to find Him, and then proceed in the way of simplicity. Now, as always, God discovers Himself to "babes" and hides Himself in thick darkness from the wise and the prudent. We must simplify our approach to Him."-(taken from his book, The Pursuit of God)
God opens the eyes of the humble who diligently seek Him...those that are drawn unto Himself. For His ways are higher than man's ways, and His thoughts higher than man's thoughts. My opinion: Anyone "spiritually" content with a verbal profession of "faith" without (or desiring to) abide in abundant life-giving communion with God Himself is spiritally on the wrong road. Let one examine himself thoroughly to see, by God's grace, where they really are.
The Lord bless you with more of Himself,
richie

this thread has laready been done, have a look in the archives, they had heaps of agree's and alot of disagree's, you should find it interesting.....God Bless

This is true and a good place to mention doing a search through the site. However, hope that is not taken to mean everything has already been discussed and gone through, far from it, nor is it to necessarily dissuade another post from beginning again.

The search engine can take some patience to utilize, generally, using the "Exact Match" is helpful in narrowing down the amount of replies.

Here is one on this topic;
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=8093&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Once Saved Always Saved[/url]

It's but a few pages or so ... :-)

Yeah I know what your saying but if a subject is spoken again and again it can bring confusion to people who may not have a full understanding on the subject or even God's word, everyone has a different opinion and you do have to be careful of deception too....this website is about exhorting, edification and comfort. bringing people closer to God, I believe this subject can be dangerous because if people are led to believe they can live in sin and still enter the kingdom of God, just be careful because baby christians look at this site for guidance. God Bless

How can someone loose what is not theirs in the First Place. The question is not what are we saved from but what are we saved to. Saved from puts the monkey on our backs. Saved to puts salvation in the hand of God.

In Christ: Phillip

this website is about exhorting, edification and comfort. bringing people closer to God, I believe this subject can be dangerous because if people are led to believe they can live in sin and still enter the kingdom of God, just be careful because baby christians look at this site for guidance. God Bless

Absolutely brother and I am in full agreement here with you on this matter, am about to somewhat contradict myself anyway ... Could have put it differently I suppose, that there is a great deal of reference available, that's all.

Awoke this morning from a terrible dream, full of temptation it was, the kind you [i]feel[/i], dream or no dream. It had that carry over effect that wanted to continue the draw even wide awake. It sent me to some gut wrenching, flesh destroying prayer. It behooves me to spare the details. Somehow it transmuted into what is to follow .... Will only preface it a bit by saying that surely much of it is a redundancy expressed elsewhere, but it may side up a bit with what you mentioned if I am not over reading your sentiments; some things need repeating.

There is something entirely grievous about this whole construct that is deeply troubling. It needs so much definition and explaining that it ought to just be done away with. It at once seems to be a twisting into contortion [i]part[/i] of the vast whole of God's thought, the Lords salvation and reconciliation and disallowing even that which the Holy Spirit teaches in the innermost regions of the soul.

Mere men! Men crafting statements, pronouncing benedictions and handing out that which was never theirs to give, not in their fallible control to begin with. Oncologists and pediatricians in the spiritual realm, obstetricians, not the mid wife role that is given to us.

What infant knows it's existence? And what grown man need told he is no longer infantile? This whole matter is so corrupted as to be meaningless and a great problem that has plagued the Church by way of example, that the whole is neglected for the part, over and over again. It may well be the schism and branching of the disease of denominational abomination, camping on select verses and building entire foundations from them.

To go the route of proof texting is of almost little avail only in as much as one being pitted against another rather than recognized as derivative of the one and same substance. All that to say plainly, this is utter nonsense and is both giving false assurance and license for presumption. Whatever the real truth of it, extracted out of the mishandling, it is hardly worth the diabolical, reckless, sloppy form of words that glide effortlessly, thoughtlessly from the lips of mere men.

Why do we groan and cry inwardly? Where do the springs of that which we know elsewhere, in the very marrow of being, the soul ... why do we cry [i]Abba, Father[/i], from whence these things come from? Is it merely an abstract application of thought's planted in the mind, some philosophical school of principles and rules of conduct, membership, sign-up fellowship, a career path, a scholarship ... An altar call and certificate? Is it truly [i]once[/i] _____ always ____? Where is this emphatically given anywhere in scripture? I surely do not mean a cutting out of the cloth;

[i] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/i] Joh 10:28

Why? Because the very substance and context is set aside by all that precedes it;

[i] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [u]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me[/u]: [/i] Joh 10:26,27

Not only is there knowledge, being known by the Lord, but knowing the Lord, "hearing My voice" [i]and[/i] [b]they follow Me[/b].

The parables of the Lord. Seeds strewn and seeds planted. Seeds rejected and seeds trampled. Birth is the only evidence there is. A pulse is demanded!

Forever the requirements are before us;

[i]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [/i] Mat 7:21,22

[i]And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?[/i] Luk 6:46

[i]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/i] Mat 7:23

Depart from [i]Me[/i]?

My God, I fear exceedingly that we have not grasped the tremendous horror that is embodied in those words! It may only be surpassed incredibly by those who gave that assurance to the unsuspecting ... it may well be pure speculation but I am almost of a mind that the ignorant may well be spared and ...

...[i] whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.[/i] Mat 18:6

It would be a relief if all that was accountable was merely death by drowning.... [i] Departure[/i]!

So how to speak to this matter? Perhaps the greater trouble with this is in it's common place, out of order, overemphasized placement in this great, vast, life of the children of God. The general populace of what construes Christianity today and I use that quite lightly, it is a missive that has made all things far too common and at ease. What is the primary teaching afoot in our era? Principles and application. Spiritual substance, flesh and blood reality, gut-wrenching, creation groaning fact is relegated to the abstract, to prose and cast out as mere imagination, emotionalism, fanaticism. In it's place, how-to, how not -to. Proscriptions and catch phrases. It was well mentioned elsewhere here how ruinous is the jargon that is bandied about, [i]Christian lingo[/i].

No man, no preacher, ought to be telling anyone, anywhere, anything that is not in factual evidence. The only souls that know the Lord are those souls who know the Lord. Period. And who in their right mind does not know when the entirety of their former disposition is and has begun to be turned inside out and upside down? What foolishness is it to tell a man standing in a river that his feet are wet?

How far has the Church veered in presumption and 'assurance' over the sheer value of astonishment? What is grace and mercy but an unutterable grasping at the magnitude of what has happened to a soul returned back to his Creator?

[i] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [/i] 1Pe 4:18

What is the epitome of Paul's "God forbid!" on all matters of presumption? For the life of me, I find it absolutely impossible that the Lords words repeated back into His hearing, [i]Lord, Lord[/i] could ever be uttered above ...

... [i]standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.[/i]

"I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

It is utterly amazing what has happened in this day. To think that the place where eternal, blazing glory is enough to burn the very flesh from the bones is a place of presumptuous boasting ... To even begin to address that which the soul [i]knows[/i] inwardly by radical readjustment and regeneration, renewal, revival, whatever faltering, lacking, beggarly language we might give it ...

The filial, reverential fear of God, true love, real peace, exhaust less, eternal life ... All this, to be codified and debased down to a human level, crafted into some throw away statements as they are, disregarded as so much empty, wanting, lacking reality ... And then the surprise that the world has turned a deaf ear to our pleas ...

Oh dear Lord, save us from ourselves.

Seems an addendum is necessary just as well and I am thankful that this is still replaying in the thoughts;

just be careful because baby christians look at this site for guidance.

Indeed it is so, lest we forget where we all have come from. To the new born's, the fresh converts, to the halting between two opinions, wherever one may be in wrestling and struggling, searching, seeking ... trying to make sense of it all. Though all that came before is a heart cry for all, there is a [i]beginning[/i] and really that is what all of this amounts to, a beginning and a continuation. "Assurance" can both be welcoming and deviating, the later having been so overwrought .... I digress. Most certainly that which he Lord has given [b][i]is[/i][/b] eternal life, [b][i]is[/i][/b] settled, that there should be no fear on the one hand, that which is being afraid, is a substitute or that one carries a paranoia about them.

Note the changes when you have given over yourself and been bought with the price that is priceless, the cost that is so incredible that all the collective wisdom of the world cannot even begin to express. It is this that the Lord was both crucified and exalted for, the reward of His suffering ... you and me. Let it be the astonishment that it is, ponder it often and always. You appreciation will only grow and develop into wider realms of thanksgiving and true praise.

There is no easy way through the narrow gate on the slim trail. It is asking for more than you know, demanding a truer honesty than you can even begin to recognize but with that a great deliverance and relief. No longer must you fake anything before Him who know and sees all, it has always been so, only now you begin to realize it.

You are asking for a great deal of trouble and it will come as surely as the sun rises. Having departed one minor, corrupt kingdom for the grand and glorious one, the previous dictator is not appeased easily and forfeits unwillingly. But if you can but recognize it when and while it is at hand do take note that you are now in the fight!And what a noble fight it is! It is worth every effort and all the strength you can muster at times but this is not a strength that will hold. It is why you must learn to relinquish it to the Lords strength, it becomes a merging that is difficult to describe without branching off into a lot of heresy. The Lord is your strength, enough said.

But do take note of all the seemingly little things that your mind will want to send off as 'coincidence' without letting that become an experience to rest on. Perhaps an illustration.

Early on in this walk the Lord saw fit to begin awakening me at or near 4:AM. The first couple of times it was that sense of 'This is peculiar' and hardly realized what was happening. Well recall when it began to dawn on me one of those mornings, reading and praying and I thought to myself, "Why this is beyond peculiar, Lord, what or why is this happening?". By impression, the answer back was; "Follow Me". That was it, it struck me at the time as ...
"You will see, ...eventually"

Look for the evidences in your life and allow yourself the pleasure of bringing the questions to the surface. It's an amazing revelation at times. In fact it still is to me! What I do mean to attend to is taking notice of what is stirring within you that defies proper explanation. Why this desire to really [i]know[/i] God? Why is it that now things that used to bring pleasure are becoming a disinterest or even a conviction? Why do you feel a need to pray? Or even the evidence that you feel you ought to but would rather not ...? To dwell on these kinds of things are evidences, proofs if you will. Changes. Glorious changes. A true inner longing that wants to do Gods will, longs for God's will despite what these bundles of contradictions that we are might think in any given moment. You just begin to know the sense of ... [i]Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.[/i]

Just as well, some force feeding is necessary, the old man is weak and strangely enough dies hard. Discipline and disciple are of the same derivative, and you are a disciple if you are following the Lord and you will follow and endure and go on and be misunderstood and a whole host of innumerable things will take place. But it is incredible and rapturing and full of wonder and times of excitement, real happiness that is joy, peace that the world knows not and yes, security, comfort in affliction, understanding through suffering even if only slightly grasped by the mind, but grasped nonetheless.

I would say that this word, 'assurance' could be put aside as non issue, it's not needed. What is needed is new life from new birth and then growing in the knowledge of the Lord, a continuum, a process, it is always in motion even as we stumble and trip over ourselves along the way.

But above all, pray! Pray always, learn this tremendous gift, practice it constantly, read about it, study it until it becomes part and parcel of your makeup. Reading the scriptures and drinking in deeply from them, it would seem to go without saying yet, again, force feeding often a necessity.

Sin and repentance ... first requirements of repudiating and understanding, if this was overlooked, if this sting and stench of death is not first addressed than all that I have mentioned here means absolutely nothing to anyone. It goes at the beginning, there is no conception possible without the souls confession, to the Lord and to the Lord alone. To accept, receive, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to ask for an invasion of your innermost being. I personally am not fond at all of those first two words even if they are descriptive, they have fallen prey to the same corruption as this whole matter at hand. But to believe on the Lord is so full of demands, with promises, is far beyond the reaches of the mind, it is believing in and with the soul. It is to have the God of all creation cohabiting within you. Think of it! Astounding fact! That is the Holy Spirit taking up residence within the heart by the incredible process of birth ...

It is rather strange to be spelling all this out here, but only in as much as for those who may be peering in on this from a far, a great deal merely preaching to the choir. But what of us? Have we lost some of the wonder and astonishment that is, while we are distracted over variations of points of doctrine, controversy's, what have you? Goodness, just to attempt to spell all this out to the best of my limited understanding is a great thing to look back on, muse on.

It is an astonishing thing. Great God in Heaven!
The scandal of the ages, God's great condensation to the likes of us ...

Since I am so full of expression and attempted explanation, an extravagance of words ...
To eek out a bit of this dream from last night and I believe I am forming a picture now of what the Lord is trying to get through to me, it is the second in the last couple of nights with a similar theme ... But the premise that launched all this was over a matter of the new birth. Was in a discussion with a mother and daughter, both Catholics and the daughter well versed in her particular theology. Bringing up the subject before them was met with a chiding and from the mother "Why don't you spell it out for the young man" sentiment towards the daughter who went on to produce ... well, a literal comic strip version of the bible, I mean Batman and Robin with little voice balloons of scripture out takes. Even a family member it seems was there, belittling me for the stand of being born again. I mentioned that I was no theologian which was met with the sentiment of "poor fellow, that is surely in evidence", was taken back a bit by it all and ... well it only went downhill from there. Perhaps someday all of it can be articulated, what I believe the Lord is after.

But can I admit something here?

All this expression on this subject, everything pouring forth ... It at once seems as if I am talking far beyond myself. I understand it well enough but there is something that causes me to want to run away and hide. Not out of cowardliness or anything of that sort but more from ...

"Who is sufficient for these things?"

There is that which seems fragile and precious not only to that sense of loss out there with so much being spoken on the peripheral, but inwardly. I am speaking of the Gospel. This hard to attribute delicateness. It having been so ... slighted and mis ... represented, by the loud and proud, the ones not sent, not as the trumpet of the humble and contrite. I hardly know if this makes the sense I could wish it to. Maybe it is an appeal for bringing correction to it, from those of known experience.
It still feels lacking and in need of further clarification and I also realize the tendencies to go on and on, the mind reaching in ten different directions at the same time.

It is still so beyond me, feel far unqualified to even speak and yet the compelling to do so anyway. "Knowing not what he said". It could be chalked up to any number of things, exhaustion from a long week or coupled with that spiritual exhaustion that can come about in prayer and in even sensing the weight of words used beyond the reaches of full understanding. It's somewhat difficult to even allow this to come forth, strangely enough.

Had mentioned a musing awhile back about Elijah and the prophets of Baal and after that tremendous dealing who quickly came the seeming turn of the great prophet into something other, when Jezebel sent after his life. How to go from that mountain to;

[i]It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers.[/i]

[i]Why[/i] he ran, why this expression so shortly afterwards? I hardly know and forgive the application if it be off, but the wonder is if it was in large part due to that sense of feeling unworthy for the task in the first place, that of being Gods instrument in the slaying of the false prophets and having been spent in what must have been an incredible spiritual expenditure ... found himself right where the expected weakness would be, in that state of exhaustion and bewilderment. Not only "I am not better" but "take away my life".

This is not a statement, just a wonder. And hardly a comparison but any stretch of the imagination.

Maybe all that I am trying to express is ... do we feel the gravity of these things? Have they become so commonplace that the sense of awe and admiration, of what holiness [i]means[/i], not what has been wrongly attributed to it, but the weight of the sacred ...

Souls. This is what is being dealt with, souls that belong to God and God alone. "[i]All souls are Mine[/i]". God is reconciling the world to [i]Himself[/i], how hard for this mere man to even utter such a thing, to speak in His stead. I shudder and flee

Thankyou Sir for your posts...

crsschk wrote:
Maybe all that I am trying to express is ... do we feel the gravity of these things? Have they become so commonplace that the sense of awe and admiration, of what holiness [i]means[/i], not what has been wrongly attributed to it, but the weight of the sacred ...
"[i]All souls are Mine[/i]". God is reconciling the world to [i]Himself[/i],

Amen!!!!!!!!!
"For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof."-1Cor 10:26(kjv) I know these things, these thoughts of God are too beautiful for me...Please pray that the Lord will keep me in humility the rest of my earthly days, and may I always be greatful of His work in my life...for there is no reason for me to boast, except to boast in God Himself!!! Thankyou again for your posts...
richie

I generally will stand and listen and not speak until I find something to speak about! Well, I believe that the greatest gift that man can receive is the gift of Salvation. Not wanting to hurt anyones feelings or anything. The Bible is clear that we are beings with a free will and we make choices that sometimes make me wonder. But, nevertheless we are free to do as we please. Nothing can pull us out of God's hand this is TRUTH...But we can of our own free will toss the gift to the side and walk away from God. This is in my Spirit. So If I am wrong I would like someone to help me to believe otherwise.

Thank You

Once saved always saved is an issue that cannot be swept under a rug and forgotten. There are always going to be people (both saved and unsaved) who will make an inquiry into this subject: "Is a saved person secure in salvation or can salvation be lost?"

Logic determines that the answer has to be either salvation is secure or it is loseable; it cannot be both. This is what causes division over the subject because someone is right and someone is wrong.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord,'... And then I will declare to them, I [i]never knew[/i] you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:22-23). First I want to say that this verse applies to both camps - there will be people who believed in OSAS and there will be people who believed that salvation was loseable in this group. Second, I want to say that according to this verse no one "lost" salvation - Jesus said He [i][b]never knew[/b][/i] them. Now if they had been saved then Jesus would have at one time [i]known[/i] them and then He would become a liar to pronounce those words to anyone whom He had ever "known" by having a relationship with him or her.

The dangers with both doctrines; once saved always saved and unsecure salvation, is that it is possible to be right or wrong in the doctrine and still be lost. Both doctrines taken to their final conclusions are dangerous to the unconverted. The doctrine of secure salvation leads to licentiousness for the unconverted - "Since I'm saved (so he or she thinks) and salvation is secure, then I can live how I want to and still be saved." The doctrine of unsecure salvation leads to legalism for the unconverted - "Since it is possible to lose salvation then [i][b]I must keep myself saved[/b][/i] by keeping the law and repenting everytime I sin and ultimately by dying without any unconfessed sin in my life." Both are deadly and destructive outcomes for the unconverted.

For the converted, neither doctrine will condemn because of the outworking of true salvation in the heart and life of the saint. The truly converted who holds to the doctrine of secure salvation will not degenerate into licentious living because the grace of God instructs them to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age (Titus 2:11-12). The same is true for the truly converted who holds to the doctrine of unsecure salvation - he or she will not degenerate into legalism because he or she can truly say, "It is my delight to do Your will, O my God" (Psalm 40:8).

Now to some personal testimony on this subject. After I was saved I genuinely wanted to know whether or not salvation was secure or unsecure. I have to admit that I wanted it to be secure because I knew that I was wretched enough that if it was unsecure then I would definitely lose it. But since I had seen the glory of the Lord and His Magnificence and that He only spoke truth, I was willing to accept whatever God revealed in His Word. After much agonizing and praying and searching the Lord gave me this verse as an answer: "For I have come down from heaven, [i][b]not to do My own will[/b][/i], [i]but the will of Him who sent Me[/i]. This is the will of Him who sent Me, [i]that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day[/i]" (John 6:38-39). I realized that God's will for Jesus His Son was that Jesus lose nothing! If He does lose anyone He loses everyone because He will have been disobedient to the Father's will and will have become a sinner - that will never happen!

If salvation is loseable then no one can have assurance of salvation - not until death ushers him or her into God's presence or away from His presence.

Our desire to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age should never come from fear of punishment but from the joy of having beheld the glory and love of the Son of God who died for us so that we might no longer live for ourselves, but for Him who died and rose again on our behalf; and I say that no matter which doctrinal camp you may find yourself in!

Grace and peace
Olan

Quote:

by Rapha

Nothing can pull us out of God's hand this is TRUTH...But we can of our own free will toss the gift to the side and walk away from God.

AMEN Rapha!!!

You hit it dead on the head.

I agree that we can pull ourselves out.

Look at Revelation 22:19

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God sahll take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Well if God is going to take you out of the book of life, you had to be in it.

Also look at Hebrews 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall [b]Fall Away[/b], to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

And I don't think that you get that this verse is talking of non-believers because, what non believer has partaken of the Holy Ghost?

Happened across this, thought it might be applicable to the conversation.

[b]The Title to the Saints' Rest[/b]

If there is such a glorious rest awaiting only the people of God, why do most people neglect the certainty of their title to it? What strange madness is it that allows people to live happily while uncertain of their destiny? I would think that we would want above all else to be fully assured of our being heirs of the kingdom. If a person has a law suit against him, how anxious he is to know whether it will go for or against him. If a person is to be tried for his life in an earthly court, how eager he is to know whether he will be acquitted or condemned. If a person is dangerously ill, he will inquire, of the physician, "What do you think; shall I live or not?" But in the supreme matter of salvation, many are content to be uncertain.

If you ask of most men "a reason of the hope that is in them, (1 Peter 3:15) they will say, "Because God is merciful." If God or man should say to one of them, "Friend, what is the state of your soul? Is it born again and forgiven?" He would answer like Cain, "I know not; am I my soul's keeper?" His flippant attitude is, "I'll leave it all to God." That is like a skipper saying, "I will trust God with my ship and leave it to the rocks and waves and winds." What horrible abuse of God this is, to pretend to trust God, while covering up our own voluntary negligence. If you really trusted God, you would also be ruled by Him, and trust Him in His own appointed way. Wouldn't he be a foolish traveler who would stay on a certain road when he does not know whether it is the right road, and comfort himself by saying, "I hope I am right; I will go on, and trust in God?"

No wonder you are an enemy to plain preaching. No wonder you say of the minister, as Ahab of the prophet Elijah, "I hate him; for he does not prophesy good concerning me, but evil" (1 Kings 22:8).

The way to conquer uncertainty is self-examination. It is the serious and sincere trying of a person's life by the rule of Scripture. Go through a congregation of a thousand members, and how few of them will you find that ever spent one hour in all their lives in a close examination of their title to heaven. Ask your own conscience, reader, when was the time, and where was the place, that you ever solemnly took your heart to task, and examined it by Scripture? Did you ever find out if it was really renewed or not, whether it was truly holy or not, whether it cared most for God or lesser things, whether it was focused more on heaven or earth? Did you follow up this examination and pass sentence on yourself accordingly?

Scripture shows that the certainty of salvation may be attained. We ought to know if we are saved. Scripture bids us "give diligence to make our calling and election sure" (2 Pet. 1:10); and earnestly urges us to examine, prove, and know our own selves, whether we be in the faith and whether Jesus Christ be in us, or we be reprobates (2 Cor. 13:5).

Among the many hindrances which keep men from self-examination, SATAN will do his part. He doesn't want the godly to have the joy, assurance, and strength against temptation, which the faithful performance of self-examination would provide. As for the ungodly, he knows how to angle for souls better than to show them the hook and line, or frighten them away with a noise, or with his own appearance. Therefore he works secretly to keep them from examining themselves.

Some scoff at self-examination. "What," say they, "do you doubt your salvation, when you have lived so well, and done nobody any harm? God is merciful. If such as you are not saved, what will become of all your friends and neighbors who live as you do?" So the WORLD cries, "Don't worry about these things." Consider, however, that it is Christ, and not your neighbors or friends, that must judge you at last. If Christ condemns you, these people cannot save you. Therefore, it is not from the words of ignorant men, but from the Word of God, that you should gain your hope of salvation.

The greatest hindrances are in men's OWN HEARTS. Some are so ignorant that they don't know what self-examination is. They don't realize there is any important difference between one person and another, but think that we are all Christians. Some are so full of self-love and pride, that they will not even suspect they are in danger. They are like pampering parents who will not believe that their spoiled children could do any wrong. Some are so in love with sin, and so dislike the way of God, that they don't dare examine themselves, lest they be forced to change. Some are so resolved never to change their present way of living that they neglect self-examination as useless. They would rather risk eternity than seek a new way. Many are so busy in the world that they cannot take the time to test their title to heaven. Some are so lazy that they will not be bothered with it. But the most common and dangerous obstruction is 'false hope' which keeps a person from suspecting his danger.

As in a house where nothing is in its proper place, it will be difficult to find what is needed, so it is in the heart where all things are in disorder. It is difficult for a person to examine himself impartially. Like a bribed judge who has already made up his mind which way the case shall go, people are partial to their own cause. They think their great sins small, and overlook their small sins completely.

Some hindrances keep even true Christians from blessed assurance. Sometimes they mistake assurance for the joy that commonly accompanies it. If they don't feel the joy, they fear they don't have the salvation. This is like a child who thinks himself a son only while he sees the smiles of his father's face, or hears the comforting words of his mouth. Does he cease to be the child of his father, just because the father's smiles and soft words cease?

Christians need to realize that their comfort comes from the promises of God. They must draw comfort as often as they need it, by daily and diligently meditating upon the promises.

Another cause of distress is the secret harboring of some known sin. God has put a gulf between sin and peace. As long as you cherish your pride, your love of the world, the desires of the flesh, or any unchristian practice, you won't feel the comforting peace of God within.

Grace is only apparent to the soul while it is in action. When it is not in action it is like a musical instrument, well tuned, but making no more music than a piece of wood lying alone. When it is played by a skillful musician, the melody is delightful. So also, some degree of comfort follows every good action, as heat accompanies fire. A man that is spiritually cold should work until heat be kindled; so he that lacks assurance must not stand still, but exercise his graces until his doubts vanish.

The lack of assurance in the soul is sometimes caused by physical weakness. A conscientious Christian, while under mental depression or physical weakness, may doubt, despair, and fear. This is no more unusual than for a sick man to groan, or a child to cry when spanked. The physician may be needed instead of the pastor, when people cry out about sin and the wrath of God, while the chief cause is their physical or mental illness.

Faithful self-examination will have pleasant results. Isn't it desirable to know what will come to us hereafter, and what place and state we must be in forever? What sweet thoughts you will have of God. All His power and justice which is the terror of others will be your joy. How welcome will the Word of God be to you. How sweet will His promises be when you are sure they are your own. The very threatenings will comfort you, to remember that you have escaped them. What boldness you may then have in prayer, when you can say, "Our Father," in full assurance. It will make the Lord's Supper a refreshing feast to your soul. How lively will it make you in the work of the Lord.

Perhaps you say, "I don't know how to examine myself." I am now going to give you some DIRECTIONS.

Bow down before God in sincere prayer, desiring the assistance of His Spirit to show you the plain truth of your condition.

Choose the most convenient time and place. Let the place be the most private, and the time when you have nothing to interrupt you; and, if possible, let it be the present time.

Have available, either in memory or writing, some Scriptures, containing the descriptions of the saints and the gospel terms of salvation.

Proceed then to put the question to yourself. If your heart tries to escape the work, force it on.

When you have discovered your true condition, pass sentence on yourself accordingly; either that you are a true Christian, or that you are not. Don't pass sentence rashly, either with self-flattery or with pessimistic perfectionism.

Write this sentence, at least in your memory—"At such a time, upon thorough examination, I found my condition to be such and such." Such a record will be very useful to you hereafter.

Now let me add two criteria by which you may determine your title to the saints' everlasting rest. First, taking God for your primary good; and secondly, accepting Christ for your only Savior and Lord. Every soul that has a title to this rest places his chief happiness in God. This rest consists in the full enjoyment of God. Do you truly consider it to be your primary happiness to enjoy the Lord in glory? Though the flesh will be pleading for its own delights, and the world will be creeping into your affections, yet in your prevailing judgment and true interests, do you prefer God above all things in the world? Do you make Him the very aim of your desires and efforts?

If God should set before you an eternity of earthly pleasure on the one hand, and the saints' rest on the other, and invite you to take your choice, would you refuse the world and choose this rest? Or, do you prefer in your heart, worldly happiness before God? Though your tongue may say that God is your chief happiness, yet your heart may not so esteem Him; for the world may truly be the principle aim of your desires and efforts. The life to come may have little of your care or work. You are not attracted to the unseen glory of another world, nor would you do anything at all for heaven if you knew how to keep the world. If God would give you permission to live on the earth with health and wealth forever, you would think it better than heaven's rest. If this is your condition, then you are still an unregenerate person. You are not born again, and you have no title to the saints' rest.

As you take God for your chief good, so you must sincerely accept Christ for your only Savior and Lord, to bring you to this heavenly rest. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:31). Do you sincerely consent that Christ alone shall be your Savior? Have you stopped trusting in your works to save you? Are you trusting in the redemption made by Christ? Are you also content to take Him for your only Lord and King, to govern and guide you by His laws and Spirit? Are you willing to obey Him even when He commands the hardest of duties and those which are most contrary to the desires of your flesh? Are you sorry when you break your resolution, but happy when you stay in close obedience to Him? Would you not change your Lord and Master for all the world? This is the way it is with every true Christian.

But if you are a hypocrite, then it is different. You may call Christ your Lord and Savior, but you never found yourself so lost without Him as to drive you to seek Him and trust Him, and to lay your salvation on Him alone. At least, you never sincerely consented that He should govern you as your Lord. Of course, you are willing to be saved from hell by Christ when you die; but, in the meantime, you don't want Him to command you anymore than will agree with your pleasures and worldly desires.

Observe, it is the consent of the heart, or will, which I ask you to examine. I do not ask whether you have assurance of salvation. I do not even ask whether you can believe that your sins are pardoned. These are not a part of justifying faith. They are the fruits of it. They are results of faith. Do not say, "I cannot believe that my sins are pardoned, and therefore I am not a true Christian." This is a most common mistake. The question is, whether you sincerely accept Christ in order that you may be pardoned, reconciled to God, and so saved. Do you consent that He shall be your Lord who has bought you, and that He shall bring you to heaven in His own way? This is justifying, saving faith. This is the test by which to examine yourself. Yet still observe that all this consent must be sincere and real, not pretended or acted out with reservations.

If Christians want comforts that will not deceive them, let them make it the endeavor of their lives to grow in grace, to strengthen and increase the interest of Christ in their souls. The promise is not to every one that presumes to believe, but "to him that overcomes, will Christ give to eat of the hidden manna" (Rev. 2:17). He shall eat "of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev. 2:7), and "shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). He will grant to him to sit with him on His throne, even as He also overcame, and is set down with His Father on His throne (Revelation 3:21).

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=256]Richard Baxter[/url]

Those who are led by the Spirit of God, those are the Son’s of God. You believe because you see blessed are those who do not see but yet believe. I believe therefore I speak, that his sheep know his voice. And he walked in the midst of them, and they did not know that it was Him. The day that you stop hearing his voice, is the day you have lost your salvation.

Listen to Paul Washers's sermon "repent and believe" on heartcrymissionary.com. If you have ever truly believed you will continue beliving untill the day you die! God who begins a work will finish it. Do some research on perserverance of the saints.

I don't think that this topic should even have time wasted upon. there are more important things to be discussed and revealed. Once saved always saved? A question that can never be answered except through the interpretations of scripture. Can a God that saves us from hell not save us forever as well? . . . Or Adam being a perfect man, made like unto the image of God, given all authority on Earth, and yet falls from God and sins. Of course then you have blaspheme against the Holy spirit is an unforgivable sin. You can take bits and pieces from all over the Word and twist them however you want (whoa sound familiar, Satan, dum dum dummmmm)

The question I ask is why do you question your salvation. Is not the God who saved you from Hell, not also the God that has made you Holy, a new creation. Why should you ever come to a place where you question your salvation. I can preach and teach both ways and back each side up, but you know what . . . it doesn't matter because as a Christian I'm never going to come to a place where I have to question whether I lost this precious gift. Is not God, God. Are you not His, are you not the temple of God. Live like it. Love like it. If you are asked this tell the person why does it matter? Jesus died on a cross, God sacrificed His only Son, does He not deserve full devotion?

Why should you ever come to a place where you question your salvation. I can preach and teach both ways and back each side up, but you know what . . . it doesn't matter because as a Christian I'm never going to come to a place where I have to question whether I lost this precious gift.

Must admit to some reconsiderations on this whole matter. Still not fond of the phraseology, the way it is used generally, that of an ending and not a beginning, a parsing of one truth at the expense of another.

As was mentioned, it [i]does[/i] matter and I am beginning to suspect that the problem lies as much in the wrong application as well as the lack of examination. A word springs to mind; Continuity.

[i]Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.[/i] Psa 26:2

[i]But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.[/i] 1Co 11:28

[i] Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?[/i] 2Co 13:5

Perhaps this sums it up well, it does go on;

[i]But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.[/i] 2Co 13:6

Nonetheless, examine thyself.

[i]The way to conquer uncertainty is self-examination. It is the serious and sincere trying of a person's life by the rule of Scripture. Go through a congregation of a thousand members, and how few of them will you find that ever spent one hour in all their lives in a close examination of their title to heaven. Ask your own conscience, reader, when was the time, and where was the place, that you ever solemnly took your heart to task, and examined it by Scripture? Did you ever find out if it was really renewed or not, whether it was truly holy or not, whether it cared most for God or lesser things, whether it was focused more on heaven or earth? Did you follow up this examination and pass sentence on yourself accordingly?[/i]

A great deal more still to be recognized, the perseverance of the saints ... a study on [i]endurance[/i]. Wish there was a neat and tidy way to completely summarize the matter but feel the whole beauty of what has been granted is both a sense of continued astonishment as well as a healthy dose of trepidation, that mingled, paradoxical '[i]fear[/i]', the reverential understanding of a Holy God contrasted against poor, beggarly, rebellious, sinning man ... even the best of the reborn, Spirit filled, God loving souls ... still ... have mercy on me, a sinner.

I still fail to see any relevance whatsoever of this topic. If someone were to ask the question, they are not looking for an answer they are looking for an excuse. Can I lose my slavation? How far am I able to go into sin before it is lost? Am I able to sin now and never have to worry about losing my salvation?
We should move out of these petty debates and move onto discussions involving something that has relevance to God. The fact I present you all with is that either way, true or not, we as christians have a duty to never allow oursleves to fall pray to sin, especially to the point of anyone questioning whether they are saved or not. We need to stop trying to figure out eternity and figure out what God wants and is here and now.

respectfully,

100percent

"I still fail to see any relevance whatsoever of this topic. If someone were to ask the question, they are not looking for an answer they are looking for an excuse. Can I lose my slavation? How far am I able to go into sin before it is lost? Am I able to sin now and never have to worry about losing my salvation?"

Its not a question of sinning to much. This is a question of assurance, which is biblical. For example, how do you know you are saved, if you are saved?

I do not question whether or not it is true. I question the reasoning behind people who seem to need the answer. The question is why? Why do you need to know? Is there some sin in your life that keeps you in fear of death? The Bible says not to worry. Luk 12:25 Can any of you live a bit longer by worrying about it? I ask you can any of you change your eternity by worrying about it? You can discuss this all day long and profit nothing from it. 2Co 5:17 Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.

1Jo 3:7 Let no one deceive you, my children! Whoever does what is right is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 Whoever continues to sin belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for this very reason, to destroy what the Devil had done.
1Jo 3:9 Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin. You know you are saved if you act like God. You know you are not if you act like the Devil. I'm sorry but if you doubt you are saved then you have a serious theological problem. I don't understand how sin is even a problem for you anymore. Did not God change you. Did God not create you a new? Do you not renew your mind. Be mindful lest you fall into temptation. Paul never said you would. He said you could. This is not a fight. We do not fight sin, why should we, we have been freed from it's bondage, Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit, which brings us life in union with Christ Jesus, has set me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:5 Those who live as their human nature tells them to, have their minds controlled by what human nature wants. Those who live as the Spirit tells them to, have their minds controlled by what the Spirit wants.
Rom 8:6 To be controlled by human nature results in death; to be controlled by the Spirit results in life and peace.
Rom 8:7 And so people become enemies of God when they are controlled by their human nature; for they do not obey God's law, and in fact they cannot obey it.
Rom 8:8 Those who obey their human nature cannot please God.
It is no longer a fight it is a choice.
1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
1Co 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
You are the temple of the Living God. He dwells in you.
Now remember in Mark 3 Jesus tells the scribes that a house divided can not stand. A kingdom divided can not stand. Now would it make sense for God to raise a family or army of people who inside themselves are fighting themselves. No God does not dwell where sin dwells. We in the church need to realize that the war is over, we win. We no longer need to deal with sin, we must be mindful of temptation realizing that we do not have to fall prey to it. Can a christian still sin, YES. Can they lose their salvation? Well my friend that is up to God, but it should not be in the thoughts of any true Christian whether or not they have lost their salvation. This si a call to say, you should not have to question this. You are a new creation follow God's Spirit, not the World.

And to the unbeliever - they must realize they are a sinner. After they come to know the Lord, it is not a question of can I lose my salvation, it is a question of why should you. You are new, holy, your body is not your own. Why would you still sin, 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
When you are asaved live like the one who has paid for your life with his. Does not the Lamb who was slain, deserve the reward of His sacrifice? (Moravian quote kinda)

The missing link in the whole confusion about eternal security is the fact that the person who is saved is not looking to exploit his freedom. A person gets saved truly when he sees the error of his ways against the backdrop of the holiness of God. He trusts in Christ as the only means to make him new, holy, and righteous. Such change is accompanied by a godly sorrow over sin. The salvation experience is ultimately a work of God in a person’s heart. God is the author and finisher of our faith. Thus, what God has done, He will be faithful to complete (Philippians 1:6). No one can take us out of God’s hands.

Some see the truth that God will glorify those whom He has also called and justified as being a way to manipulate the system. Paul anticipated this objection, saying “What? Shall we sin that grace may abound? May it never be!” He goes on to show how we are no longer slaves to sin but slaves of righteousness. Some believers may make shipwreck of their faith, falling away from holiness but not from God. This is rebellion against God, and it results in a serious loss of rewards. How we live in this life determines the quality of the next, though all believers are assured an inheritance in heaven. In addition to eternal rewards, the motivation for righteous living even though we know we are saved is that we love our God. The fear of God plays a role but so does gratitude and the love of God, seeing that we were bought with a price. A person who professes faith but has no works should have reason to question the genuineness of his faith. If he has some works, he will have some fruit. If he has no works, he can assume that he is dead. The goal is that we bear much fruit. All believers must have at least some fruit, for that is how we are known.

Where does this leave us? It leaves us with the black and white reality that those who are born again are changed from the inside out. They are not seeking to exploit the love of God and the sacrifice of Christ. They nay sin, but it eats them up inside as the Holy Spirit works on their hearts (like David in Psalm 51). (I do believe that some infant believers get so far led astray into deception because they never get taught the full counsel of God that they may not even feel remorse over their sin, though they may well be truly saved). The love of Christ controls us, says 2 Corinthians 5:14. The believer has a new heart, he is not enslaved to his flesh, and he is being renewed in his mind day by day. Thus, the believer does not seek to take advantage of his freedom, though he may sin at times. He may sin and stumble, but he will not make a practice of sin. 1 John 3:9 says, “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” John’s point is that there is a cut and dry difference between the saved and the unsaved. The saved are children of God, no longer children of the devil. Thus, they have new loves and new behaviors. 1 John 5:13 then sums it up by saying that they can know they are saved. How do they know? They know because of what Christ did and because His regeneration of them leads to a reworking of their loves and behaviors. When Christians see this change in themselves, they are convinced of their salvation and security. They know that nothing can separate them from God’s love.

Some believers choose to walk after the flesh even though they are no longer of flesh. These we need to discipline in the church and let Satan deal with the destruction of their flesh (1 Corinthians 5:5). It is not necessarily true that because a person rebels that he or she is not saved or was not saved to begin with.

Eternal security is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Those who want to exploit it need to ask themselves why? If they have the same sinful desires in their heart to break God’s laws as they did before they professed faith, they need to ask themselves if they really are saved. Christians stumble; unbelievers sin through and through. Christians love God and others, though imperfectly; unbelievers may act loving, but they cannot truly love.

Are we born again? If so, we are new creations in Christ. Eternal security is not the problem. It is how we share the gospel. If people truly repent, then eternal security is a joy and a rest, motivating us to store up treasures in our certain inheritance. If people profess faith falsely, then eternal security is a great deal for sin. Unfortunately, such profession is not a true possession of faith. True Christianity requires a transformation. This is why Christian organizations can talk about having won 4 billion souls for Christ and the world and church remains chaotic and dysfunctional. True repentance leads to permanent, though imperfect and sometimes rocky, change. But praise God that those who truly repented of their sin will be brought into heaven with Christ because of Christ’s power, grace, and sustaining love.

Brent Barnett
www.relevantbibleteaching.com

100percent,

This is not a fight. We do not fight sin, why should we, we have been freed from it's bondage

We in the church need to realize that the war is over, we win. We no longer need to deal with sin, we must be mindful of temptation realizing that we do not have to fall prey to it. Can a christian still sin, YES. Can they lose their salvation? Well my friend that is up to God, but it should not be in the thoughts of any true Christian whether or not they have lost their salvation.

Brother, a couple of notes. One, these are not 'petty' discussions in the least, the larger matter here is one of an ill-adviced catchphraseolgy that is giving all kinds of conflicting messages to the Body. Keep in mind, there are any number of people peering into these things discussed here.

The quotes taken out above, why did Paul say;

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Amongst many an example?

It most certainly [i]is[/i] a fight, we have indeed been freed from the [i]power[/i] of sin, of having to give into it, with a way provided for escape, but to chalk it up as you have here, it's just not so.

[i]Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.[/i] Hebrews 12: 1-8

It seems you are dismissing far too much, far to easily here.

Orm wrote:

If I am righteous in deed and pure in thought, and have no Godly sorrow, what is to bring me to Christ?

If one is rigteous in deed and pure in thought then Christ died needlessly - but - "There is none righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10). In this case there would be nothing to bring one to Christ - Jesus said, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the [i]righteous[/i] but [b]sinners[/b] to repentance" (Luke 5:31-32).

Grace and peace
Olan

100percent wrote:

I don't think that this topic should even have time wasted upon. there are more important things to be discussed and revealed.

I still fail to see any relevance whatsoever of this topic.

Do you really believe what you are saying and if so then why are you giving so much time to an irrelevant topic?

The desire to have assurance of salvation has nothing to do with wanting to sin more but has everything to do with determining paternity - after all the tares (children of the devil) think that they are wheat (children of God). Then the next desire would be to know if there is anything one can do or not do that will cause him or her to lose sonship or daughterhood.

Grace and peace
Olan

But I don't know about any unrighteousness I can't do anything about, i.e., the stain of Adam. Other than the stain I inherited, I'm righteous, blameless before God.

Orm, are you saying that you are sinless? How did you get to be righteous and blameless before God? Or are you saying that the only sin you have is Adam's fault?

Grace and peace
Olan

I believe he is saying that Christ is his righteousness and he is blameless before God by the Christ that is birthed in him.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His Seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But if we are saying we are sinless that is a lie of the devil, which he wants us to believe and make God a liar. All have sinned and fall short of the sinless ness or glory of God.

Not being born of God is where the sin is.

1 John 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Being has priority over doing. Who we are is by the Christ that is in us. What we do is by the Holy Spirit that shows us who we are in Christ, then the doing will be fruit unto the Kingdom of God by which we see the things of God.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of Water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That is born of Christ (water) and the Holy Spirit.

Christ is the Living Water. The Living Water is is our life, the Holy Spirit is our Teacher of the Life in us.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Teacher of what Christ said:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

In Christ: Phillip

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Church: ekklesia: individual members of the church His Body on earth or saints with the Lord in heaven.

What is the Great Mystery? Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

He is presenting His Church to Himself without spot or wrinkle, That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. What more perfect birthing would anybody want? Washing, using Himself as the cleansing agent to present His Body the Church to Himself without spot or wrinkle. He is the Water, He is the Word, He is the cleansing.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is only one cleansing that takes away all unrighteousness, that is being born again of Water and Spirit the Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. "The washing of Water by the Word" Jesus Christ.

This is a little beyond Nicodemus, but not beyond the Spirit Teacher that is baptized into us forever.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of Water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
He is speaking of being born from above, not of being born on earth again then being born from above also. This water is the same as the water being spoke of at the well, that is living water, not the water of natural birth. Being born again already makes our natural birth a given, or "again" would mean nothing.

In The Pure Water of the Word Himself Jesus Christ: Phillip

I am not a believer in the "Once saved, Always saved" theory. I have a couple of rhetorical questions for y'all. If after one is "saved" is it possible to fall from grace? If one falls is he still saved? Can one be saved and go to hell? Salvation is an ongoing process in the life of a Christian. We are called to daily conversion, there is always room for improvement. In my intro I said I am saved, being saved, and will be saved. I am saved because of my confession of faith in Christ. I am being saved because I am "working" toward my salvation through an ongoing faith in Jesus Christ(An inward conversion.) And I will be saved ultimately from the flames of hell by the grace of God.
God Bless! :-)

If your salvation is of yourself, absolutely you could loose it. If Grace was attainable by anything you do, there would be on Grace. Can Christ exist in hell or better could hell exist where Christ was. What are you falling from? If Grace is not of ourselves, if salvation is not of ourselves, If you are saved who did it? If you are being saved who is doing it? If you will be saved who will do it?

What is being born again? 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who is the Word of God?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We are born of God with Christ in us and the Father has given those that are Christs' to Him, do you think you can be cast out?

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Christ in us is our salvation and exchange of spirits, form Satan's spirit to the Spirit of Christl We have a new spirit. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Holy Spirit is our salvation of our soul and renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me:

The Holy Spirit in you. John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Teacher of the Soul: John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Will be saved: Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; "delivered", saved in spirit, "doth deliver", being saved in soul, "will yet deliver" in our glorious body like His.

No Person can get out of the Hands or into the Hands of God. If we are in His Hands we cannot get out. If we are not in His Hands we cannot get in. "so by Grace you are save through faith and that not of yourselves" Grace and Faith are not even of ourselves, but of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Nicodemus was not born again and could not be until Christ was born again with His glorified Body in the resurrection. His Spirit was perfect, His Soul was Perfect, His flesh and blood body was full of all the sin of the world. His new birth, that is His resurrection body was now perfect as His Spirit and Soul were. The life of the flesh is in the blood, that is what was left at the Cross and thus the death of the Body, needing the new birth of resurrection, just like ours will be on resurrection day. Jesus was the first fruit, Nicodemus could not have been born again.

1 Peter 1:23

Born Again: 313. anagennao
Search for G313 in KJVSL
anagennaw anagennao an-ag-en-nah'-o

from 303 and 1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again):--beget, (bear) X (again)

After death can one only be born again. Gal 2:20

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him , Verily , verily , I say unto thee , Except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God .
Born: 1080. gennao
Search for G1080 in KJVSL
gennaw gennao ghen-nah'-o

from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Again: 509. anothen
Search for G509 in KJVSL
anwqen anothen an'-o-then

from 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top

Completely different that Just being born twice.
Born Again is a new model not and old fixer upper.

In Christ: Phillip

If you are truly saved(justified) you will continue being saved(sanctified) and will finally be saved(glorified).

Phil 1:6b "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;"