I am trying to explain to some people that they need to be careful what Christian music that they listen to because not all Christian music brings glory to God. The problem I had in discussing this with them was that this was based on a whole lot of opinion and a slim amount of fact. I am so sure that MOST of the Christian music industry worships money and themselves, thus the problem with my friends listening to it. Recently, I went to a Jars of Clay/ Sarah Groves/ Derrik Webb concert at a gigantic church. We had to pay about 25 dollars to go see them play. I have a problem with the whole paying to listen to "worhippful" music idea. I don't wish to do this to condemn the artists, but I want to dig up the dirt (facts/ sinfulness) on the music industry so that I can help my friends understand the sinfulness within it. Hopefully this would strike a chord of discernment and prayerfulness of the music industry artists. please help me find resources to help in this discussion.
Corrupt Christian music industry
Mike, if you go to www.av1611.org you will find solid facts on the Christian music industry. Quotes from the artist themselves on key points that should concern us all. There are several articles on "christian music" on this site. The article on P.O.D. is very good as well as so much else. There is also an article of testimony from many young christians who started out listening to "Christian" rock and graduated to secular rock very quickly. There is also an artcile by Steve camp calling for a reformation of the music industry. I hope this helps you. God bless, john
Hi mikeness and everyone else. A while back we were blessed at SI to have some godly music added by a fellowship called Christourlife. These brothers put together some beautifull music and made good quality recordings of it available free for all.
I thought it would be edifying to bring it up again here...
Peace be with you all in Messiah Jesus.
I cannot suggest av1611.org on this matter.
False reasoning, many things taken out of context and an arrogant style of writing.
I cant see god in it at all..
but just my 2 cents
Well brother Daniel what sites can you recommend to address the problem of Contemporay Christian Music and the corupt christian music industry?
Also When i read your post I thought to myself o.k. maybe there is false reasoning,etc. So I went and took a look at some of the stuff on the site. I didn't readily see these things.
I am not be sarcastic when I ask this; can you point out 1,2,or 3 examples of false reasoning or things taken out of context? The arrogant writing style may or may not be true. But lets go with the facts and context in hopes of nailing down the accuracy of av1611.org's claims.
God bless , John
I checked out this av1611.org, and particularly the article that was written about P.O.D. that was recommended here. I was personally shocked to hear some of the things that the band has done and said, and some of the artists/bands and their perversions that POD has collaborated with. It made me sick just thinking about it.
Personally, from what I have read so far, I see no unfair bias or false reasoning and am thankful that there is a group like this that is willing to call out groups like POD and inform parents and youth pastors of the truth.
-K DAY
Hi, i didnt want to be harsh or so.
Sorry when i sounded.
The whole problem with that thing is that av1611.org puts their INTERPRETATION of the bible
as truth.
I have no site to suggest, because i don't listen to this music..don't like it, it sounds all the same.
All the interviews and statements on this site with POD, are taken out of context.
You dont know in which context they have been spoken.
I mean, i dont care about that, i dont even like POD.
I mean, i could start a discussion about music in general. Think that is the main problem, that we may have a completeley different view of "music", or "christian music".
this would en up in arguing with each other..
i dont want this.
Please read the "Bible Guidelines for Christian Music"...sorry but i dont know if i should laugh or cry when i read this.
For example the reasoning that "Drums in general are evil"
Its long..i dont want to post all this now.
But to me, its putting something in scripture that is not there.
Sorry...
I've struggled alot with the lord about music...and in the end i have found rest and peace what is appropriate for me.
And im sick of christians fighting at each other because they think some music is evil and the other side fighting back...
Dont we have something better to do?
in love
daniel
[edit:
and its very sad the av1611.org accuses people of doing exactly what jesus called us to do...to go out in world, in the darkest, dirtiest places.
and thats what many bands like pod did, they went out on the dirtiest concerts and lead people to christ. (this is not about pod, its what many bands do)]
O.K. Daniel, I appreciate your post. You were being honest as "you" see it. You say that you are sick of the fighting. You also say you have found rest in the Lord concerning music,"for you".
Now you have the right and are welcome to post what you want. However concerning this issue maybe you should just enjoy your rest and just let others labor over it.
For what it's worth;
The scriptures declare psalms, hymms and spiritual songs. Making melody in the heart.
From the early christian writings AD90-350 the christians have taken a stand against the pagan music and dancing, saying it is not for christians.
Martin luther and other reformers did not tolerate "wordly" music being mixed with the music of the church.
Most of the revivalist would not tolerate it either.
If you take the time to watch a very excellent documentary "HELLS BELLS 2" produced by the former sound man for ACDC you will be amazed.
What is covered in there concerning rock music and drum effect etc. is staggering. To summarize a quote from George Harrison of the Beatles, " We don't care what the parents teach their kids, our music bypass' that teaching and go's to their subconcious, they will follow us" That is a paraphrased quote but the exact words of the quote are very close to what I just wrote.
All musicians know that rythym and beat appeal to the carnal fleshly nature or animal nature etc. Taking rythym and beat and puting a christian tag and a few words does not take that away. Many christians, sense this and though tehy can't explain it they know something is wrong.
For more rules concerning proper melody rythim,Spel?beat see Frank Garlock and also artcicles on www.av1611.org which explain this in better detail than I am able to here.
God bless, John
Hi,
ok, thanks for the warm reply.
You are right, i should others let labor over it.
I disagree with the teachings of av1611.org, thats why i posted.
But i will let this go to the lord.
May he give you guidance.
Its good that you seek the lords will about that.
daniel
Thanks Bro, Thanks for showing me mercy. God bless and see you in future posts! John
Hi mikeness,
I pulled this article out of the archives of Charityministries.org They are remnant people and well based in Biblical beliefs.
Check it out because they did a good job at exposing the sinfulness in contemporary christian music.
In Christ, Doug
http://www.charityministries.org/theremnant/2005/May/theremnant-May2005-index.cfm
I dont like that sight that you recommended to me. Their arguments are full of knowledge, but I would say bias as well. While I have my own reasons for being skeptical about those artist's music based on their lyrics and the fact that they make a junk load of money, this sight goes so far as to say that many of these artists are affiliated with the occult. They base this on symbols used on the albums' covers. While they may be satanic symbols, the artists may be using them with ignorance of their meaning. If anything they ought to be exhorted for their ignorance of such matters and how ignorance of such things may give and adverse affect; but to go so far as to say that they are a part of the occult is idiotic when it is not coming out of the mouths of the artists and when it is based on assumption. The people on that sight are like news reporters who will use anything to support their opinion whether it is plausible or not.
I speak with peace and not hostility.
mikeness wrote:
I dont like that sight that you recommended to me. Their arguments are full of knowledge, but I would say bias as well. While I have my own reasons for being skeptical about those artist's music based on their lyrics and the fact that they make a junk load of money, this sight goes so far as to say that many of these artists are affiliated with the occult. They base this on symbols used on the albums' covers. While they may be satanic symbols, the artists may be using them with ignorance of their meaning. If anything they ought to be exhorted for their ignorance of such matters and how ignorance of such things may give and adverse affect; but to go so far as to say that they are a part of the occult is idiotic when it is not coming out of the mouths of the artists and when it is based on assumption. The people on that sight are like news reporters who will use anything to support their opinion whether it is plausible or not.
I speak with peace and not hostility.
How do you know that about the people who wrote the article?
Just curious,
Orm
Have you read the article?
From the article
"Without question, the mysterious symbol on Third Day's Come Together album has a bizarre history of occult and satanic influence.
It's worth mentioning the Come Together album is an anthem for an ecumenical, one world, "come together" "love everybody" utopia. The same basic new age-love-mantra put out in the 60s and 70s by The Beatles and John Lennon." They are certainly trying to imply something here. These are mere correlations if anything and this sight is leading us to believe that most of these bands listed are in some way affiliated with the occult. It is gossip. This is how rumors get started, correlations and assumptions somehow become as fact.
Have you read the article?
From the article
"Without question, the mysterious symbol on Third Day's Come Together album has a bizarre history of occult and satanic influence.
It's worth mentioning the Come Together album is an anthem for an ecumenical, one world, "come together" "love everybody" utopia. The same basic new age-love-mantra put out in the 60s and 70s by The Beatles and John Lennon." They are certainly trying to imply something here. These are mere correlations if anything and this sight is leading us to believe that most of these bands listed are in some way affiliated with the occult. It is gossip. This is how rumors get started, correlations and assumptions somehow become as fact. If it were pure fact then it would be a different story. I would not listen to the music and I would discourage others from listening to it as well.
What do you mean by" "these are mere correlations"?
Also Christians can to a lesser or higher degreee have occult influnces in there lives or work and may or may not realize it.
Again I am not saying the site is perfect. However have you found anything on it that you would label as accurate?
What do you think of Steve Camps 107 thesis on a call for reformation in CCM? Lets keep it level and mellow as we discuss this topic. God bless John
I have stated why I don't like the site you directed me to so it is of no use to me. Steven Camp's 107 thesis was great and very inciteful.
I would like to know if their are any specific pieces of evidence on the artists which would be good enough evidence to keep myself and others from listening to them.
Hello mikeness, As far as "specific" that is good enough evidence I would say that depends on your definition of it. Some Evidence that I think is good you don't.
Solution? Well, anything said on that site that seems like it might be good, ex. a quote that an artist said. You could then try to google search on the net to get a bigger context of that quote to confirm if it is accurate.
Also, on that site, hit the links. On the links are other site's concerning music you may want to check. Maybe some of those sites would seem more credible to you.
Another is type into google search word/phrases like, " what's wrong with Christian music " or "problems with christian music". Also type in Frank Garlocks name and see what he has to offer. Depending on the words you type in it will bring u diffrent sites that may have more credible material for you to look at.
There are numerous christian books published about the concerns of "ccm". Some by former artissts or worship leaders.
Lastly Frank Garlock is an older gentleman who has a video series called, "The Language of Music" which I think is very good.
Well I'll stop for now, God bless you, John
In all fairness ...
[url=http://www.charityministries.org]http://www.charityministries.org
This is a very good ministry. Unfortunately that particular article was not. It ended up being tainted with a lot of assumptions and poorly researched facts. Recall it well, have been receiving The Remnant for quite some time. Thought about writing a reply to them in regards to it.
The problem is that for all that might have been accurately stated and was, like many things it ends up going too far with speculations and assumptions and ends up ruining anything that might have spoken to those who would know the truth of their favorite performers. And I am speaking far more towards the secular here, something I am quite familiar with, having been practically a life long rock 'n roller.
It's just often dishonest and nobody is fooled by it. Most fans know their bands quite well and it is a disservice to fill notions in Christians heads that are inaccurate. Mikeness is right, this is amounts to untested and biased gossip, both by the writer and the receiver. Christian gullibility is just as much a lack of Berean testing the scriptures as it is anything else handed down to us.
Surely the writer's intent and motives are not lacking in the onset, it's just poorly researched and often places assumptions above facts. Think there is a post somewhere that developed off all this.
[i]Edit: The other site mentioned here I would not recommend either, there is a certain angst out there in these self-styled discernment ministries that will distort and dismantle information, furthering this Christian conspiracy theory that seems like it will never just lay down and die. It amount's to just mangled truth.
We should enjoy all music and not just "christian". I am having a hard time finding good christian music, most of it's loud and abnoxious. I'd rather listen to "tulips from Amsterdam" or "Elizabethan Serenade". Don't get me wrong, I do listen to quite a bit of Christian music, but I am not stuck on that genre only. At one time there was no such a thing as "Christian music", classical music was considered to be just as sacred and still is at least in my circle of reasoning.
But when it comes to worship, music has nothing to do with it. Worship is humility and being contrite, how in the world it has become something else is beyond me.
Karl
moderator, In repsonse to your post. I went ahead and looked up the article you were talking about. To my surprise it turns out I actually fellowshipped about a year with the author.
Anyhow, one thing that I have observed on this thread is alot of statements of Gossip, assumption, quotes taken out of context... Basicaly broad brushing the articles with ridicule and assumptions of your own, the posters.
What I mean is nobody has "proved" any of these accusations. Nobody has said here is the full quote Amy said and it's not what was conveyed in the article. Now you all may not have time or really care. However you need to ask yourself if youve really double checked the "in context" quotes.
Now I will admit I have not checked everyone.But I have checked a few and over the years I have accumilated a few articles from Time mag as well as other christian publications with interviews in them that are cause for concern.
If you do write your rebuttel to charity I would love to see it. If indeed soemthing is proven to be out of context or just pure assumption. I will be the first to say O.K. lets get that corrected.
I know that despite all that many will still disagree. Thats obviously your right and choice but make sure you disagree based on fact and not emotion.
James dobson of focus on the family did a radio program on Christian music pro's and con's(I didm't hear it) but he said they got more calls email's and letters for and against on this isssue than any other they featured. There may have been one other that beat it out or was close. he said emotion ran high on the issue. He said he would probably not do it again.
Lets base our view upon facts and scriptural truth, which I admit on this subject can be hard but not impossible. Humbly submitted, John
P.S. Has anybody seen "Hells Bells 2" video documentary recommended by Ray Comfort?
crsschk wrote,
It's just often dishonest and nobody is fooled by it. Most fans know their bands quite well and it is a disservice to fill notions in Christians heads that are inaccurate. Mikeness is right, this is amounts to untested and biased gossip, both by the writer and the receiver. Christian gullibility is just as much a lack of Berean testing the scriptures as it is anything else handed down to us.
Would you be willing to enlighten me as to what was false and what was correct? Just wondering.
As for "Christian rock" I grew up on the stuff. 12 Stones, Kutless, Johna33, Third day, Jeremy Camp (think that's how his name is spelled) and some of DCTalk. They would scream, "RRRRRAAAAAHHHH, IIII LLLLOOOOVVVEEE JJJEEESSSUUUSSS!!!!! God is not glorified in a mere man whom He created screaming at Him. I mean come on, would we do that to our mom or dad? My mother would have corrected me like I don't know what. There is no respect for God in many of these bands. Let the songs and the band members lives show us what they are really made of. 12 Stones came to Richmond a year or two ago along with secular rock groups. They played and entertained the lost people just like the other secular bands.
What dose light have to do with darkness? Noting. They hide their thirst for money and esteem under a cloak of, "We are just trying to reach the lost." Christians don't compromise with the world to reach the world. That is foolishness.
I agree with HW that there is music that is appropriate that is not under some so called "Christian" record label.
bro Doug
John,
It would take far too long to go through and try to correct things. If I can find it, will post a link to the previous mention.
But just for the sake of argument;
Regarding Amy Grant,
[i]Moving quickly into music videos, the Contemporary Christian market has wasted no time. Sadly, the pace to mix and flirt with witchcraft and the occult has also been a fast one. In Amy Grant’s video, “That’s What Love is For,” copying the dress style of professed witch, Stevie Nicks, Amy is dressed in a hooded red robe, as is used in witchcraft rituals. Flashing strangely on the palms of each hand, she has fixed a six-pointed-star called a hexagram, which is a symbol heavily associated with occult practices.
A hooded red robe being equated with that used in witchcraft rituals? And the 'six- pointed- star' ...
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefshexagram.htm
One can draw their own conclusions but isn't this a bit over the top to equate some occult linking by Amy Grant? These are the kind of notions that get spread around by even well meaning Christians, but that doesn't mean that they are not exaggerations to try and enforce a point. Frankly, they are just outright lies. What it becomes is a trade off, if it supports what we are saying it's given a pass... pragmatism. This is what I meant about things being 'tainted'. There is enough fodder out there that is true enough not to have to go this route.
Well I went and checked the site you listed in the previous post.
It says.. In ritual magick, the hexagram is called the Seal of Solomon, and represents divine union,being composed of female, watery triangle and a male fiery triangle.The traditional elemental triangles of earth air water and fire are derived from the seal.
In the Hindu religion, the hexagram is called the Shatkona, and is equivelant to the symbolism in ritual magick...also symbol of the god Shiva.
O.K. whats wrong with that picture? pretty obvious to me. We as christians are not to have the "appearance of evil" nor be pasting or printing marks on our hands like the satanist do in their rituals.
Is Amy a closet cultist? I doudt it. Giving her the benefit of the doudt she in he niaveness went along with the directors suggestions.
But if I put on symbols of evil like that and someone comes to me and points all that out. I am called to repent and denounce that.With profuse apology.
I know others must see plainly the above written definition of the symbol. I strongly doudt anybody came away from that video going Wow Sighn of Solomon I gotta go get a bible and read proverbs! The message was something else but not christian. God bless, John
crsschk wrote:
One can draw their own conclusions but isn't this a bit over the top to equate some occult linking by Amy Grant? These are the kind of notions that get spread around by even well meaning Christians, but that doesn't mean that they are not exaggerations to try and enforce a point. Frankly, they are just outright lies.
Just another perfect example of why we Christians should be looking in our own mirror maybe just a little longer each morning, seems were not happy unless were trying to dig up every little thing we can about others, we all need to remember God is still on the throne and it's ok for us to leave some things to him to deal with I personally think he does a good job still, but you have some Christians that feel they are called to be critics and expose what others do, and that may very well be, but were much is giving much is required, so those folks may want to do a double take in the mirror each morning.
Brother Mike,
I don't see what this can do for your argument? I looked at the site and just saw that the hexagram has a far reaching false religious background. That does not help Amy to much if you ask me. There is the attire of a witch and I still can't figure out why she is dressed as one. Seems that she either knew what she was doing, or just to careless to cover her tracks. Nevertheless we are still at the same conclusion, she is dressed up like its halloween. What kinda light is she trying to shine?
bro Doug
"It is associated with the Biblical Solomon, known as the Star of David in the Jewish religion."
Is what came prior ...
This is ridiculous
MrBillPro said,
Just another perfect example of why we Christians should be looking in our own mirror maybe just a little longer each morning
Your statement is true and I'm glad that we can agree on this. But does that mean we allow just anybody to parade themselves into the church and introduce the occult. No.
We must remember, " To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men" (Titus 3:2).
But we all must remember, "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Mat. 7:16.
The picture looks like the occult. No Christian in their sane mind is going to dress up like she did, much less put it in a music video.
In Christ, Doug
Moderator,
Is that supposed to make her "fling" ok? The hexagrams that are on her hands don't even bare the same resemblance to the star of David, (over lapping). I can't help that these two stars both have six points. Satan always has his counterfeit.
And really. Was she even singing about Israel? Why even throw them in there? To bizarre for me. I don't want to touch the unclean thing...
bro Doug
Brethren,
The more I've come to know the Lord, the more I have realized, by the revelation of His grace, that it is not the Christian music that I need, or the listening to sermons (however helpful they can be), but simply coming before Him in prayer and seeking His face, worshipping Him in my own way, without show or pretense, but as I am moved by the Holy Spirit.
I do not "listen" to music anymore. I do not need to be encouraged by somebody's lyrics--be it even biblically correct. I need God. I need His love, His forgiveness. I need the communion of the Holy Ghost. No Christian music can compare or add to the glory of Christ (I am convicted here because I know I am still tempted to seek consolation elsehwere).
In a way, in the beginning of my Christian walk (which I would now call "walk with Christ") I heavily relied on music, ever for growth (imagine how little I read the Word)! Music inspired me, lifted me up. But it was a substitute for the real thing--or it could become one. Indeed, a lot of times God used songs to bring me close to Him or reveal His truth. Yet, brethren, I believe that music should not be about [i]our[i]our
Finally, brethren, if the Spirit of God cannot teach us what the Father finds pleasing, then who can? And are we so immersed in Christ's presence that we cannot do anything but honor Him in all things that we do? Or rather do the things that give Him honor?
The Lord Jesus said in John 7:37-38:
[i]"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
May the Spirit guide us in all truth! May we be being baptized continuously in the Holy Spirit! May we let him do His work in our hearts, and leave all idle chatter. Let us talk to Him more than we talk about Him! Let God be our witness and our judge!
In Christ,
Slavyan
P.S. Lastly, I recommend a sermon by Keith Daniel called Absolute Surrender (I believe). God had spoken a lot and showed me a lot (that I have in common with Keith Daniel) even before I heard this wonderful message.
NotMe,
That was well said. You know Christ is our measuring line for everything. And I believe that is why all the brethren on this thread are discussing what we are. Which music does glorify God? How can we know? Before we race out to buy the newest/coolest artist that has hit the shelf, we should do some prayer and background work on them. We should see if what they are preaching in their songs is sound doctrine in the scriptures. Even for those that sing old classic hymns. Because they can pollute them through their life witness.
Another thing to the brethren. Are the artists glorifying God in their dress? Are the men dressed with the fear of the Lord? Are the women and men dressed in modest (non-revealing apparel)? A music artist is basically preaching. We don't go to just any pastor to deliver a message, do we? No, and the same should be true for singers.
The Lord bless thee, Doug
I do not "listen" to music anymore. I do not need to be encouraged by somebody's lyrics--be it even biblically correct. I need God. I need His love, His forgiveness. I need the communion of the Holy Ghost. No Christian music can compare or add to the glory of Christ (I am convicted here because I know I am still tempted to seek consolation elsehwere).
Amen!
I used to think i was really expieriencing God when i would listen to a fast paced song and get all emotional but now i have come to realize that most of the time i was just decieving myself. I learned that by looking at what happened after this expierience. If i got down on my knees and sought God and he came to me then that peace and joy i got wouldnt go away a little after i got up. But just a little after that music goes off, the feeling leaves.
Yet, brethren, I believe that music should not be about our listening, not about our entertainment, but all about the only true God, who dwells within me, and who knows the imaginations of my heart. It should give Him all the glory. He should be the sole object of my praise! And this is not to say that I dislike music--oh, no, do not misunderstand me. I sing to God all the time--and so many worship songs that I love--as long as they come from the heart. As Apostle Paul wrote, "Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph. 5:19-20). I love the the "giving thanks" part. His grace toward us will be in vain if it does not move us to give thanks and to praise Him.
I'm so confident is in that way, i believe that what only matters to God is our heart, and I couldn't say it better that you did.
God bless you Slavyan
Hi All,
Figured I'd give my 2 cents worth...
As a Christian I still love my rock music both secular and Christian however, I am very discerning about what I listen to. When I got saved I destroyed many of my CDs because they were not edifying.
I had a good look at the site in question and while I can appreciate some of their comments about POD and some of the other bands I felt that they were seeing demons where they didn't necessarily exist. To say that Third Day are of the occult because they happen to have the symbol for infinity (a common symbol from mathematics) under the word ‘time’ (ie infinite time = eternal) on an album cover, is taking it a bit far. As someone else mentioned earlier, symbols often have more than one meaning (eg. hexagram and Star of David). I do not debate the power of symbols in occult ritual however where a common symbol is used by both the occult and the rest of society to mean two different things you cannot assume that the occult meaning is the one intended.
I also looked the author’s guide to Christian music (http://www.av1611.org/cqguide.html) and I believe that it is an absolute joke. They start with base assumptions that don’t make sense. Such statements as:
[i]‘Most of rock music and CCM does not have ANY MELODY! According to the technical definition of music — rock is NOT even music! According to the Lord God — rock music is NOT music!’
Umm… I’m not sure where he gets that... You might be able to say there is no real melody about some forms of modern music, but I think that is an unfair generalisation. He obviously has little idea about what melody is.
I also don’t agree with the comments that [i]‘Christian music is for the Lord, not the world’
Another area I have an issue with is his lumping all Christian artists together and rejecting them all as demonic. I agree with him that many artists like POD and others who call themselves Christians are very likely not saved however there are many who call themselves Christian who are saved and do present a great voice for the Church. Such bands as Third Day and Sons of Korah who both use huge proportions of scripture in their music and bands like Soulframe who have very obvious Christian themes in their music are very edifying even though much of their music is played in a rock style. Yes there are a few artists who call themselves Christian write useless music that is blasphemous, perverted and not edifying. Don’t reject the whole industry because of the ones that are hypocrites.
In short, I think this guy has a major chip on his shoulder about something and he really needs to check his facts properly before making naive statements.
Andrew
Walko I am very pleased tro here that you find "some" of the material edifying.
Concerning what is music the laws of music are basically melody, harmony, and rythym in that order. "rock" music primarly places rythym and beat in the first order, which speaks to the fleshly mind and body.
Frank Garlock who is an older gentleman and basicaly a master of music explains this in his video series The language of music.
Another VERY IMPORTANT source to help understand rock music as it really is is the video series "Hells Bells 2" this is highly recommended by Ray comfort and is produced by the former sound man for ACDC. I have recommended this a few times before. Know one has responded that they have seen or heard of this yet. I believe the minitry is "Reel to Reel ministries"
Lastly you say that Terry watkins "lumps all christian artist together rejecting them all as demonic. If that is true I would like to know about it. Where on his site,(because I haven't read everything on his site) does he say this?
God bless , John
For everyone, The video "HELLS BELLS 2-The power and spirit of popular music". is available through www.apologeticsgroup.com The video's deal primarly with secular rock music and is a very in depth study. Lots of film and letting the rock musicions explain themselves what rock music is and it's origins etc. This is produced by Eric Holmberg former sound technicioan for ACDC. God bless, John
Walko wrote,
I do not debate the power of symbols in occult ritual however where a common symbol is used by both the occult and the rest of society to mean two different things you cannot assume that the occult meaning is the one intended.
If I may ask, Since when did Christ or true believers care what society is doing. Society is corrupt and going to hell. That might sound harsh but people as a whole are not saved and have absolutely no baring on things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. I don't want to sound harsh to you, so please don't be offended.
In Christ, Doug
Mikeness,
It's good you realize this. I used to run a Christian Rock station. When you find out what happens behind the music and who owns the industry you begin to understand that it isn't what the CD cover suggests it is. There's something going on behind the scenes.
I think the biggest test of music is: Do you have the music or does the music have YOU? If the music has you, then it CAN'T be of God, because He doesn't share His glory with ANYTHING.
If it's become idolatry, which it has to many in this generation, then the problem isn't just music anymore, it's sin. If a person can't lay down their music for a month without having a lust to listen to it, then it's a sure bet it has a hold on your life. And if listening to it causes lust of any kind – an unquenchable desire to be entertained – to rise up in you, then wisdom should dictate putting an end to its hold on you.
A lot of music labeled "Christian" today is no such thing. At least not in the biblical definition. Music fits the American stigma of self-gratification. It's no wonder the devil found a crack in the armor of the church which allowed it entrance.
will you elaborate what you are saying. I like what you are saying because it is so true. Share with me details of your thoughts if you will?
In Matthew 7 it is written "Judge not, that ye be not judged". I want to challenge you brothers. In the way that you/these sites are delivering these verdicts on the christian music industry and the artists that are involved in the industry, are you doing it in love?
Jesus went to the woman at the well, who was, as it seems to me, the village prostitute and told her of her sin, but He did not condemn her. He told her in love so that she might be saved. It says in His word "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
Are you speaking in love that the lost of this world might be saved, or with a spirit of condemnation? Condemnation is not of God. Love is, God is Love.
Strong words on your first post! Don't know how long you've been visiting, but welcome as a member! Just a note: Matthew 7:1 is perhaps the number one verse ripped out of its context and stripped of its true meaning. I would read the whole of Mt 7 then come back to verse 1 to see what it really says. I am not accusing you of misusing this verse, I really do not know how you meant it.
In regards to John 4, however, I think you are missing something. Jesus indeeds sticks his finger right through her heart by showing her her violation of God's seventh great commandment. Only after her conviction did He reveal Himself.
God is indeed love. He is also holy and reproves the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment that His love might be made manifest in the broken and humbled heart.
I wish His blessings upon you as you continue fellowship on this site :-)
BeYeDores,
Glad you brought some clarification to that verse. It truly can stumble Christians right into the world of sin, for they are scared to make a Biblical judgement. When we judge not on all things we are then powerless to calling a persons sin sinful. Good post :-D
bro Doug
I have looked into the context of that verse. The beggining of Matthew is talking about worrying about others sin, when you yourself are sinning! First take the plank out of your own eye, then you will be able to see the speck in your friends eye etc...
My point is this, yes, Jesus did not reveal who he was until later, but the reason for him being there was because of love. He put his neck on the line, he was seen with a sinner! Also, he ate with tax collectors etc, the pharisees were not too happy about that, because they preached a religion that was not about love and grace.
I'm a sinner, because I was born into sin, but, God's grace abounds all sin, his grace has set me free! Is this God you preach, a God of grace and freedom, or restrictions and rules?
Are you saying that we should all be above sin?
This question is not said in anyway to annoy you, i am just curious, because it seems that the way you are describing God in the above posts/websites mentioned, is not the way I know him, gracious, kind, but also Holy!
In Christ
Wow, this thread is old, yet I'm dusting it off and replying anyway.
So I read that av1611 website, and I have to say that I can't really get behind how the guy was approaching his critique of Christian rock. If I still listened to any but one or two Christian bands these days, and his intent was to get me to quit listening to them, then he failed miserably.
Whether he was right or not is beside the point (though I will address that later), the fact is that he failed with me on delivery. I didn't feel like a loving brother in Christ was warning me about something that may be weighing me down in my walk with Christ, I felt like somebody was trying to play God and judge me and/or the Christian people playing music, basically a "holier-than-thou" type.
If I were the guy from that av1611 site, and my intent was to rail against the Christian music industry, I would more or less want to simply CHALLENGE the industry, not condemn it to Hell. The thing with me is that I simply don't trust the majority of Christian acts out there, I simply do not know how sincere they really are or if they're just puppets for some greedy fat-cat execs who want to tap into the Christian market. Were all the songs on these Christian albums the band's idea? Or did the record company tell them they have to cover this or that "praise & worship" song because that's what they think their customers want to hear?
I find that if more Christian artists were just HONEST, completely honest in their expression, I would be more inclined to listen. Everybody has their doubts, fears, anxiety, depressions and the like... and to pretend like you don't would be just that -- pretense. I want the artist I'm listening to to feel or have felt like I do, and to express his or her own journey with God in an honest way. That artist is human just like me, and any human being knows that life isn't all sunshine and rainbows, it's all in how you handle it that counts.
Of course, the artist has to have talent that hasn't stagnated due to the greedy record companies relentless demands of putting a record out by this time and writing only about this thing or singing that cover song, etc. After all, if the music bores me, I'm going to ignore the message all together.
One last thing, about the guy who wrote that article on av1611.org. I think that there are things he needs to figure out. First, DC Talk, they're just sinful human beings like the rest of us. POD, Audio Adrenaline, Third Day... and yes, even Bill Gaither... are all sinners like you and me, and they all do things they ought not to do, and they don't do things which they ought to do. The idea that these people, despite their sins, are loved by God and are going to Heaven is a comfort to me. I also find that the tattoos, the imagery, the people with whom they associate... God has used and will use all of that for His ultimate glory, because He is sovereign.
Alright, so... that's what I had to say on the matter.
In my opinion... that av1611 website is filled with misinformation, rumor mongering and lies. I dont think the author of that site is intentionally lying, but some of the "information" on that site, especially where Christian music is concerned, is just flat out untrue.
Perhaps he hears rumors and then relays them on his site as fact without checking into it, I dont know.
I love the KJV. I agree there are serious problems in Christian music... but I would warn everyone to NOT rely on that website for factual true information. In fact, whenever someone on this forum quotes from that website I automatically ignore it.
Krispy
Mike,
Many years ago Christianity Today magazine published an article about music - I forget but think it was about Southern Gospel or maybe it was Contemporary Christian music. Anyways, it was an excellent read.
(I have tried to find old articles from Christianity Today on the web but they are not there...likely because this was written long before there was a world-wide-web.)
This article shared how he enjoys this type of music. He visited the studios, talked with the producers and commented on how wonderful it must be to work with these Christian singers/groups. The response this comment evoked was "I do not know that any of them are Christians!" The writer said he still enjoyed their music. hmmm...
Mike, it seems to me that when your spirit is tuned into the Holy Spirit, He will teach you. When you see red flags, observe them and follow them. Actually, I do question whether one will be able to convince others on the basis of facts alone because music ministers to the spirit/soul which will ignore reality because "it feels good." Seems to me if your friends would grow in their walk with the LORD this conviction will come and when that happens then you need to come alongside with reinforcement.
Just my thoughts...
ginnyrose
This is what Brother Bob wrote in the last
song called "Ain't Talking from his latest album, Modern Times
"......It's bright in the heavens and the wheels are flying
Fame and honor never seem to fade
The fire's gone out but the light is never dying
Who says I can't get heavenly aid?
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Carrying a dead man's shield
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
Walkin' with a toothache in my heel
The suffering is unending
Every nook and cranny has it's tears
I'm not playing, I'm not pretending
I'm not nursing any superfluous fears
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Walkin' ever since the other night
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
Walkin' ‘til I'm clean out of sight
As I walked out in the mystic garden
On a hot summer day, hot summer lawn
Excuse me, ma'am I beg your pardon
There's no one here, the gardener is gone"
I haven't written here in a while, hello again. I can't help but get the feeling that this is a decidedly Western issue, I would love to hear how our families in Christ worship around the world. We must not fall into the trap of "What I do or don't do defines what I believe", but instead test all things through a proper interpretation of scripture.
For what it's worth, I would highly recommend artist Shai Linne and his album "The Atonement". He speaks more theology than I've ever heard from a christian artist. If you can listen to his song Triune Praise and not be encouraged by a biblical, plain definition of the Trinity, then shut my mouth! This is his blog http://lyricaltheology.blogspot.com/ the lyrics are avaliable for review on the left side of his home page.
Grace and Peace,
J. Losinski
The original post, way back in 2006, was expressing a concern for the CCM apparent love for money and self. I've scanned this post through all five pages and have not seen an answer to the original question. The article links are all dissing CCM because its "satanic." That grieves me, I don't think any CCM artist would think their musical expression is satanic.
My opinion is that most CCM is money driven. It The lyrics mostly exalt what the songwriter feels or is doing for God (legalism). There are few artists who go out on a limb and exalt Christ or glory in the blood-sacrifice or acknowledge our extreme undesrving nature of God's great gift of salvation.
There are some CCM artists that take that chance: David Crowder, Chris Tomlin, Bob Kauflin and Keith and Kristie Getty come to mind. They seem to reach the deeper, more meaningful issues than the current "Hey God watch me dance for you" and "Jesus is my boyfriend" music of today.
Another thing this thread reveals is that we seem to feel that all of CCM is corrupt, shallow, and greedy--- except the artists we like.
A word about 'driven by money'...We Christians should be wary of hypocrisy when it comes to judging others as being driven about money. I personally still haven't figured out how to do anything without having money to pay my bills. We tend to judge others as we see them, and ourselves by our intentions and ideal self-image. I work 60 hours a week for money, but in my mind, I am not driven by money, because my intentions are to provide for my family. I suppose this is how I can easily assume CCM musicians are only writing songs about religion to make easy money, while I see myself as a selfless diligent caretaker of my family.
Cynicism is a terribly sneaky infiltrator of the heart brethren. It robs us of our love. This morning I listened to an elderly saint sharing his testimony, a man who has been in faithful ministry most of his life, describing with tears the lyrics from the contemporary worship song... “I’ll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross”. Funny, I had grown abit too jaded to enjoy any modern worship song, and I have no where near this man's familiarity with Christ, nor his love and humility.
In our quest for purity, we often settle for cynicism towards impurity. Our purity is that we point out others impurity. At this rate, our work will never be done...even if the greatest revival in the history of revivals were to come to America, there will still be impurity and unsaved people in the church.
Lately I've been wondering, with all of the disappointing people in my life, can I ever afford to let go of my frown and furrowed brow?
Just some thoughts from a fellow critic.
MC
davyman wrote:
The original post, way back in 2006, was expressing a concern for the CCM apparent love for money and self. I've scanned this post through all five pages and have not seen an answer to the original question. The article links are all dissing CCM because its "satanic." That grieves me, I don't think any CCM artist would think their musical expression is satanic.My opinion is that most CCM is money driven. It The lyrics mostly exalt what the songwriter feels or is doing for God (legalism). There are few artists who go out on a limb and exalt Christ or glory in the blood-sacrifice or acknowledge our extreme undesrving nature of God's great gift of salvation.
There are some CCM artists that take that chance: David Crowder, Chris Tomlin, Bob Kauflin and Keith and Kristie Getty come to mind. They seem to reach the deeper, more meaningful issues than the current "Hey God watch me dance for you" and "Jesus is my boyfriend" music of today.
I agree Davyman.
I find it interesting that this topic comes up constantly. As I said in 2006 and will say again, "This topic will never die." In fact the Lord will come back before this topic dies.
I was just talking with my wife about this very topic on Friday and we definitly have differing views.
I feel that most bands today (not all, but most) have God as an ideal backdrop for their music, but on the forefront, they are more concerned about their image, reputation, money, being on the top of the charts, and so on. I know of many Christian bands that end their concert with their only "Christian Witness words" of, "God Bless." Nothing more is said. I also know of bands that say, "Well, my witness is in my song lyrics," and I want to pose the question, "Was the audience able to understand or hear your lyrics over the music?"
I happen to like many different styles of music (rock, alternative, emo, etc.) and I probably always will. I will probably always listen to them, too.
As a Christian community, we always battle out the Scriptures about music, but everyone only battles with their opinions. Yes, Scripture says to [i][b]Speak to one another
So, I guess I am curious as to why people use Eph. 5 as solid evidence against much of the Christian music? Do they not read the Scripture in its context?
Number One - The Scripture says, "[u]Speak to one another[b]Speak to one another
Number Two - The Scripture also states, "Sing and make music [b]in your heart
I think when we make these kind of arguments it puts God in a box. People can be ministered to by many of these bands. I know that I have most certainly been ministered to by certain bands.
However, I do want to make a case for the distinction between entertainment and worship.
In my discussion with my wife I did make a point that in many worship services today, just because we get shivers and goosebumps when a guitarist does a solo, or does some awesome loops and swells, doesn't mean that those goosebumps are coming from the power of the presence of God in that place.
I think we have lost track of the meaning of the words and lyrics and we pay attention to the music. Have you ever sat in a service where someone prays, or speaks, and there is a pianist that plays background music, and the music gets louder when the preacher or the person praying gets excited or louder? People aren't necessarily responding to the prayer or preaching, or the Holy Spirit moving, but to the softer and louder swells of the music playing. It is all about the emotion of the music. I think many church worship bands today put waaay to much focus on themselves, their music, their hairstyles, the perfect pitch, the smoke, and the lights, to really have the audience (or even themselves) focusing upon God and God alone.
And let me say that IT IS NOT THE INSTRUMENTS, but THE PLAYERS OF THE INSTRUMENTS that can be the cause of the un-worshipful atmosphere within church. But also, the audience is also at fault. If they can't look past the music and be in total focus upon God, then they are just as much responsible.
I don't think God has an issue with Christian entertainers using their talents to play music, whether soft or extremely loud (If you have an issue, then that is your thing, not God's. If you make it God's, then you are putting him in a box). I think God has an issue when you make the church an entertainment center and you use the service times for these forms of entertainment.
Again, though, as much as I don't think God has an issue with Christian entertainers, I think there is an issue when the focus "appears" to be for the glory of God, but in all reality the focus is entirely 100% on the individuals entertaining.
A word about 'driven by money'...We Christians should be wary of hypocrisy when it comes to judging others as being driven about money. I personally still haven't figured out how to do anything without having money to pay my bills. We tend to judge others as we see them, and ourselves by our intentions and ideal self-image. I work 60 hours a week for money, but in my mind, I am not driven by money, because my intentions are to provide for my family. I suppose this is how I can easily assume CCM musicians are only writing songs about religion to make easy money, while I see myself as a selfless diligent caretaker of my family.
The CCM industry seems to be more concerned about money than exaltation. If an artist can make a gazillion with a God-honoring song, more power to him. But, again this is my opinion, the CCM industry seems to play it safe with the happy-clappy stuff. I agree that a hard-working artist should be paid his due.
davyman wrote:A word about 'driven by money'...We Christians should be wary of hypocrisy when it comes to judging others as being driven about money. I personally still haven't figured out how to do anything without having money to pay my bills. We tend to judge others as we see them, and ourselves by our intentions and ideal self-image. I work 60 hours a week for money, but in my mind, I am not driven by money, because my intentions are to provide for my family. I suppose this is how I can easily assume CCM musicians are only writing songs about religion to make easy money, while I see myself as a selfless diligent caretaker of my family.
The CCM industry seems to be more concerned about money than exaltation. If an artist can make a gazillion with a God-honoring song, more power to him. But, again this is my opinion, the CCM industry seems to play it safe with the happy-clappy stuff. I agree that a hard-working artist should be paid his due.
Yes, I agree that much of the CCM industry seems to be more concerned about money then anything. I think it is a shame. Not all bands are like this, but I will agree that many are.
that is because most of the christian music industry is not owned by christians, emi holds a large branch of christian music companies such as Kingsway and I think Sony may hold some!
Let me throw out a thought here...
Obviously Christian music is big money now. We all know those that "own" (secular corporate ownership) Christian music are only motivated by the bottom line. And just like in any church or any para-church organization... not all the artists are operating from a pure heart.
These things we all know and understand.
But what if we stopped worrying about what everyone else is doing? In other words... suppose you hear a song on your Christian radio station that God really speaks to you thru... touches your heart... does it really matter that Sony is getting royalty from it? Does it even matter who the artist is, or if they are operating from a pure heart?
Dont you think that maybe God can use the lyrics of a song sung by anybody... and touch your heart with it? Speak to you thru it?
God used a [i]real
You can choose not to invest your money in the CCM industry. Thats something that many people are convicted to do... and I have no problem with that.
But I wonder sometimes if we get so caught up in being righteously indignant about the CCM industry that we are missing times of possible blessings, ya know?
I'm not excusing CCM. I think it is unequally yoked with these secular corporations. I just think we may be missing something here.
Just something to chew on...
Krispy
Dont you think that maybe God can use the lyrics of a song sung by anybody... and touch your heart with it? Speak to you thru it?
Yes, God first spoke to me through a pot-smoking Hungarian cellist as we sat on a roof in Boston and watched a dramatic sunset back in 1989. All the guy did was quote Jesus on the radiance of the lillies in comparison to Solomon. I had heard Jesus quoted before (in Catholic church and CCD), but never [i]outside
You are right, Steve. If God could speak to a free-thinking drug user like me though another pot-smoker...well, His ways and means are beyond all our mortal comprehension and logic when He targets His elect. And, yes, He can well speak through this Christian rock music too. Nothing is impossible.
Believe it or not... one song that really spoke to me spiritually (even tho I wasnt interested in anything spiritual at the time) long before I was saved was "Dust In The Wind" by Kansas.
It's a hopelessly depressing song, but it is the perfect example of the hopelessness we have without Christ... we're just dust in the wind. "All we are is just dust in the wind"... Here today and gone tomorrow.
When I got saved I found out that the song was written by Kansas founder Kerry Livgren at a point in his life when he was spiritually frustrated because he had tried Hinduism, Krishna, TM... you name it... and it all left him hopeless and lost.
And not long after that song became a huge hit... he found Jesus Christ and was saved!
How cool is that?
But I remember one day driving somewhere some time before I was saved, and I had the radio on some classic rock station... and they were playing the standard Pink Floyd, Bob Seger... and then Dust In The Wind came on... and I believe that was the moment that the Holy Spirit began to nudge me in the direction of the Saviour. When the song finished I had to shut the radio off and ride in silence... because I felt more empty than ever before in my life. At that moment I didnt know what to do about it... but I knew there had to be more than partying and fighting and all the other stuff.
That was a very pivitol moment in my life, even tho I didnt know it right at that moment. But I remember it now like it was yesterday.
Krispy
Kerry said we're dust, James says we're a vapor. Either way we're nothing - and soon to be less than nothing. The Peacock spreads his fabulous tail and struts before the hens in the morning, in the evening his ant-ridden carcass is on the side of the road.
Such is life, the transitory flower of the grass. God speaks through the portals of eternity to those who have ears to hear. All great preaching (with the emphasis on the words of Christ) is soaked in the ocean of eternity. "Dust in the Wind", though it doesn't mention Christ, comes from that very ocean, reeking with the salt and foam. The song is a jolt that is unable to answer any question dealing with the salvific matters of God, yet brings an awareness of the inextricable doom and helplesness we all face. Tools like this can be great antechambers for the Gospel in the Hands of God when the time is ripe.
Brother Paul
Amen brother... where did you learn to write like that? Very poetic. Were you homeschooled? lol...
Krispy
I agree with you about how it's the people playing the instruments that can create an un-worshipful service, but about the congregation... yes, they do have a responsibility to see past the music portion of the worship, but what about the young or spiritually young amongst them? They're not always going to have somebody explain to them that warm fuzzy feelings or goosebumps do not always equal worship.
When the line between entertainment and worship is blurred, it can create a very shallow faith in people, and that can be quite dangerous for those just getting into it, not knowing any better...
I am not as concerned about the instruments in the church, Psalms instruct us to praise God with instruments: trumpets, timbrals, harps, lyres etc. David included all the instruments known to Israel, I'm sure he'd say Priase the Lord with electric guitar, bass and drums if he were here today.
My problem comes with the vapid lyrics of today, like Licoln Brewsters "What a Friend I've Found":
What a friend I've found
Closer than a brother
I have felt your touch
More intimate than lovers
Jesus, Jesus
Jesus, friend forever
What a hope I've found
More faithful than a mother
It would break my heart
To ever lose each other
This could be sung to anyone! It's Jesus my buddy, not my crucified Savior. Compare:
When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of Glory died
My richest gain I count but loss
And pour contempt on all my pride
See from his head, his hands, his feet
Sorrow and love flow mingled down
Did ever such love and sorrow meet
Or thorns compose so rich a crown
I'm not saying that there hasn't been a good song written in the last three or four hundred years, there are fine songs out there today. We just need more of them.
I agree with davyman.
It is not the instruments!!