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confused

H
hmmhmm

As i understand the word of god, im saved by grace and grace alone...i dident have anything to do whit it, just gods love and grace , he picked me out before he even made the earth, that i should be saved, now in his word he tells us to go witness.... (i do that) but still his word says not many are going to be saved...and as i understand the bible many are going even to belive they are saved when in fact they are not, but still im going go out there and witness and preach christ...but if god havent chosen them to be saved... it doesent do any good , or does it? i meen jesus says go out to the world... i will obey... but its just if he dident choose them to be saved there is no point in it, i do see that he could have chosen me to be the "deliverer" of the gospel whitch lead the other person to be saved... but i see a little hole here... in meetings the pastors always say god wants everyone to be saved... i know it is there in the bible...but jesus himself said there is not many who will be saved...and it says god chose who should be saved...and often pastors and evangelicals say chose today to be saved...but as i see it we cant really choose anything can we? if im saved its becuse god chose me...and if i have any will in me at all...he put it there... i dont know. i hope you understand my confusion..

can some one point out scripture for me? that will help to understand a little more.

thank you very much
gods peace to you christian

M
mega

the scripture that comes to me is many are called but few are chosen, God does want everyone to be witnessed too and have an opportunity to recieve him, but he knows in the end who will choose him and who will go thier own way, I mean it says in the word that thier will be a great falling away, even those people who have walked with Christ some will end up giving up on God and walking away from the faith, but only God knows who they are but all we have to worry about is being obediant to what the lord is telling us now, preach the good news, make deciples of all nations, we are here to be a witness of God's love and to teach others about him....we are his ambassador's, you just keep doing what your doing and let God worry about the hearts of man. God Bless :-)

C
ChrisJD

Dear Christian,

I can understand your concerns and I've had similar struggles with these issues and thoughts. In reading through your post I want to respond to some things in particular which I hope wll be helpfull for you.

...but if god havent chosen them to be saved... it doesent do any good , or does it? i meen jesus says go out to the world... i will obey... but its just if he dident choose them to be saved there is no point in it,

I have thought about this myself and something you said here I think is really important for us even though we may not realise it. You said

[b][color=000000]i will obey[/color][/b]

Brother, isn't this enough for us? To obey? Ahh, but I desire to understand many things. My mind came to this passage of scripture where it says of the Lord Jesus

[b] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) [u]to do thy will[/u], O God.[/b]

As I have been grappling with these issues for some time now, another verse has come to mind from time to time, where it says

Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

And I wonder if concerning myself with thoughts of whom God has choosen or not is a [b][color=000000]thing too high for me[/color][/b].

I really haven't gotten any answers about it, except that to know that there is yet a stone in my heart that must be broken and upon it is written

I delight in thy will o God

even that which perplexes me and causes my heart grief.

more...

C
ChrisJD

Also brother, you mentioned this...

and often pastors and evangelicals say chose today to be saved...but as i see it we cant really choose anything can we?

I believe that every effort should be made to appeal to the will of man; not because he of his own is able to respond but rather trusting and being confident that God is working in the will of those who He is calling. Remember too the words of our Lord Jesus where He taught

[color=663366][b]And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.[/color][/b]

Brother, our Lord has given us very simple tasks to involve oursleves with and He has left the truely great matters to Himself, like those that concern [b]the will[/b] and [b]the heart[/b].

He has called us to

herald a message

cast in a net

distribute the bread

and roll away a stone.

As Jonah proclaimed from the belly of the fish

[b]Salvation is of the Lord.[/b]

Peace be with you in Messiah Jesus.

L
Logic

hmmhmm wrote:
if god havent chosen them to be saved... it doesent do any good , or does it?

[b]Isaiah 41:26[/b] [color=990000]Who has [b]announced[/b] from the beginning, that we may know; and before, that we may say, He is right? Yea, no one declares; yea, no one proclaims; yea, there is no one who hears your words.[/color]
Notice, it doesn't say "commanded from the beginning"
Prophacy is'nt God commanding something to happen, but it is Him knowing what will happen and fortelling the event.

Just like the Election of the saints; He knows that we will choose or not choose and then elect those who will according to what He knows we will do.

Take for instanc, some one you know very well, my wife for example, Some one offers her two things and I know the choice she has to make. However, I know her so well, I know what she will choose before hand, so I make arangments for her choice that I know she will make.

So, to answer your question, He hasn't chose them because He knows that they will not choose.

The question come to us then, Why will they not choose?
The answer is this with [b][size=large]PRAYER[/size][/b]
[b]Rom 10:14-15[/b] [color=990000]How then, will they be invoking Him in whom they did not believe? But how will they believe on Him of whom they did not hear? But how will they hear apart from one preaching?
[b]:15[/b] But how will they preach unless they be set apart & commissioned? Just as it has been written, "How beautiful are the feet of the ones proclaiming the Gospel of peace, of the ones proclaiming the Gospel of the good things!"[/color] [Isaiah 52:7; Nahum 1:15]

R
roadsign

Christian, have you considered going though the Bible and seeing how various eople entered into the kingdom? How many excercised their will in the process? How many entered the kingdom without any excercise of their will - or entered resistantly?

When Jesus said, "Come" to his disciples, did he force any of them? How did they come?

Were there any who resisted God's grace?

Also, you may like to check such themes as: persevere, overcome... and consider how one's will is or is not involved.

Here's a question, According to the Bible, why do some people go to hell?

Just some thoughts to check out.....

Diane

L
Logic


roadsign wrote:
Here's a question, According to the Bible, why do some people go to hell?

No one goes to hell because of there sins, but only for rejecting the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection; with this comes eternal life.

The only penalty for sin is death, not hell.
People go to hell for dieing in the state in which the die.

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things(Jam 2:26).
It is also a Process that involves corruption or decay(Psa 16:10, Psa 49:9)

Adam died spiritually when he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He was separated form the true fellowship with God.

Now, death can't bring forth life, so whoever is born of Adam is still spiritually dead. This is why we need to be born again, born of the Spirit.

If one does not recieve eternal life, he remains spiritualy dead
What is Life?
In the Bible, life always pictured as a relaitionship with God [b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000]Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]
It is also a process that involves growth and repair(Psalm 1:3).
If one does not have these attributes, how can one not sin and and therefore die being spiritualy dead, and in turn go to hell?

I borrowed some of this from my post in "Origonal Sin" because I know it is relevant to this thread.

R
roadsign

No one goes to hell because of there sins, but only for rejecting the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection; with this comes eternal life.

Hey, Logic, you sure are a fast one! I had posted the question to Christian - as a way to get him thinking for himself.

It's one thing to get answers from someone who has already done the thinking, but entirely another thing to endure the tough slugging of finding them for yourself. Second hand beliefs don't hold up too well in the long run.


Anyway, I give you a gold star for your answer. It took a long before I could SEE that - I mean, really SEE that. I guess I was too dependent on second-hand teachings.

Diane

H
HeartSong

This is not a direct answer to your question but it certainly clarifies some of what is contained therein.

Watchman Nee on "Prayer"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=18611

R
roadsign

Christian, do let us know how your search is going, and if the confusion is clearing up. You have asked a great question and I trust are on the path towards great answers.

Diane

H
hmmhmm

i havent come to an end of this yet..but im thinking of...that god some how is sorting the belivers from the fake ones... he sorts they who "left all" and those who cling on to the world... he sort good from bad fruit.... and i belive he does that right here right now... and the choise we have is simple.... pick up our cross...lay down our will...follow him do his will, no matter the consecuense, he picked out a people since we are so infected and misereble in sin... he cleansed us, he made us, he did all for us... now we spend our entire life to give glory and obey him in even the smallest thing, no matter suffering or offering or what people might say, and in doing this thing even thou he knows who will recive him and not...he sorts out they who obey him...and they who dont, right now today...

jesus said....its going to be hard... many will try... and over and over i read struggle... its going to be tough.. but its worth it! even if i get killed, then they just solved my problem :) im dead and free from sin and home whit my master...

why god made it this way i dont know.. but he did ..and i want to follow.... i know there is many more things to it than this...but this is a start..
christian

H
hmmhmm

but still if god chose me? how could i resist him? i would never chose that...but if god decided me to be saved... what could i have done against almighty gods decision? i cansee its only becuse his holy love and grace that he chose me... but did i actually have a choise?

there is my dilemma... it doesent really mattrer...but im saved and i think if one is born of god...one stays that way...as i understand scripture...but people say decide...take a decision now! but if god already have made that desicion......
ill go think some more :)

christian

L
Logic


hmmhmm wrote:
i havent come to an end of this yet..but im thinking of...that god some how is sorting the belivers from the fake ones... he sorts they who "left all" and those who cling on to the world... he sort good from bad fruit

[b]Mathew 25:32[/b] [color=990000]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[b]:33[/b] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.[/color]

but still if god chose me? how could i resist him? i would never chose that...but if god decided me to be saved... what could i have done against almighty gods decision? i cansee its only becuse his holy love and grace that he chose me... but did i actually have a choise?

Look at it in that He persuaded you to choos Him.
Otherwise, He would be cruel by not choosing you.

[b]Mathew 20:16[/b] [color=990000]So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.[/color]

Why are "few" chosen?
Because He knows that they will not come because they were not persuaded.

Notice, even Judas who betrayed Jesus was called.

[b]Mathew 22:11[/b] [color=990000]And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
[b]:12[/b] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
[b]:13[/b] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[b]:14[/b] For many are called, but few are chosen.[/color]
This man was called but he was not persuaded to ware the wedding garment

C
Christinyou

This pretty much sums it up.


Romans 9:10-24 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In Christ: Phillip

R
roadsign

Christian, I really like your thoughts here. They speak of the cost of following Christ – and that you can’t have the best of both worlds. I’m going to challenge just one thought (at the end)

that god some how is sorting the belivers from the fake ones... he sorts they who "left all" and those who cling on to the world... he sort good from bad fruit.... and i belive he does that right here right now... and the choise we have is simple.... pick up our cross...lay down our will...follow him do his will, no matter the consecuense, he picked out a people since we are so infected and misereble in sin... he cleansed us, he made us, he did all for us... now we spend our entire life to give glory and obey him in even the smallest thing, no matter suffering or offering or what people might say, and in doing this thing even thou he knows who will recive him and not...he sorts out they who obey him...and they who dont, right now today..

Christian, I see in scripture that the great separation out occurs at the very end, not now. “Let them both grow until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds…… ” Matt 13:30 Even Jesus refused to judge while he was on earth, because it wasn’t time. “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world…. “Jn 3:17 Of course, that wouldn’t mean that God doesn’t already foreknow the end results. What do you think?

but did i actually have a choise?

How about reshaping the question: What is my choice, and what is not my choice?
It is never my choice that God dispense mercy on me. That’s up to him. But to think that I passively enter the kingdom or not without the exercise of my choice would be a horrible way to live. I was taught that kind of stuff when I was a kid – and believe me – it’s rotten doctrine. It leaves you feeling so helpless and strips you of personal responsibility. Also, you do a lot of judging. . ex: “Oh, Mr. Hothead, he’s going to hell for sure…” . “I know God can’t possibly love me enough…”, or ‘I’m so good, I know I must be one of his elect.” etc


...but people say decide...take a decision now….

This practice really bugs me, because here man is trying to play God. That’s like a person trying to force a seed to be a tree overnight – without even planting it in the dirt first. You end up making a lot of plastic trees. God has an entire lifetime to work on a person – and he can handle them quite well. And HE is the one who works on our will – first to free it up enough to decide.

You can’t decide what path to take when you’re in the dark, when you can’t even see the paths. And it takes divine enlightenment to “get it”. (We need God for that.)

Well, Christian, that’s the way I have come to see it right now. I know that there is a lot I do not understand about God and his ways.

What do you think?

Diane

H
hmmhmm

well i think there is a point there
quote

Christian, I see in scripture that the great separation out occurs at the very end, not now. “Let them both grow until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds…… ” Matt 13:30 Even Jesus refused to judge while he was on earth, because it wasn’t time. “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world…. “Jn 3:17 Of course, that wouldn’t mean that God doesn’t already foreknow the end results. What do you think?

i understand we mature and grow... and i do think he knows the result...
and of course i remember "deciding" to follow him...or rather i just gave up and as a last "hope" trowed myself upon christ as savior..i dident really know what christianity was about..i really dident know what jesus did here. As i see my choise then was either belive in this jesus...or well the only thing i had left here was death... i choose christ i dident have any expectations really... but i know from the location where i "accepted him" to my home whitch is about a seven min walk... i know the man who entered in at home wasent the same man who left, i decided to belive in him... i see that.

but i dont know... what i meen by today now...right now..is about following every day... i know so many "christians" who for example smoke ciggaretes... ive asked them do you think thats ok? they have responded that they await the holy ghost to convict them first... i really dident know what to awnser them...but if we know what do decide shouldent we make that decision right here right now today? i know he will separete all one day... but isent there a separation right now? trials and tests? to see whos dening self and following him? who are willing? who will pick up the cross? what about the figtree? when jesus says every tree that dosent bear fruit will be cast into the fire? or when he gives it one more year...maybe i misunderstand... so dosent christ then separate those who dident bear fruit? now?

christian

H
hmmhmm

this give me some "deeper" understanding

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

R
roadsign

Christian I really enjoyed reading your testimony. Thank you for sharing that. That helps me know what your thinking about, and I realize that I wasn’t quite with your drift.

we make that decision right here right now today?
Every good doctrine so easily gets off center. The notion that we are passive objects of the Spirit is one example. It’s practised in church a lot – especially in the “worship” time. Personally I feel it is more occultish than Biblical. It disables and weakens the will. So you delay a decision to stop smoking or overeating because you are waiting for a force to act on you. You don’t even think you CAN choose. In fact, you really can't choose until you get your will back - and that may take some divine work in your heart.

"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion." 2 Cor. 9:7 This verse makes sense to me if I apply it to everything I do (after all, my entire life is an offering to God).

In other words, my responses are to be the result of MY will ( my "want-to"), not the will of another force upon us – be it natural (others) or supernatural (spirits)

I have come to believe that God never forces himself upon my will, or anyone’s will. Do you think that is true?

Is God not pleased when we make a godly choice because we WANT TO.

Diane


H
hmmhmm

i do belive that...or i belive that if i should want to continue in sin... for example if i were to chose to continue to lust for women or continue to take drugs or whatever that i know is wrong...i dont think god "forces" himself upon me... but (correct me if im wrong) isent there some passege where it says god left them to thier sins? what i meen if i choose to continue to live in sin, i know its sin...i know god dosent like it...as i understand he hates it. then he lets me go to my sins if i chóse my sins?

this is geting deep now for me,i have so many thoughts i dont know now :) i have do think some pray some read some... then write some

christian

R
roadsign

i belive that if i should want to continue in sin... for example if i were to chose to continue to lust for women or continue to take drugs or whatever that i know is wrong...i dont think god "forces" himself upon me... but (correct me if im wrong) isent there some passege where it says god left them to thier sins?

Are you referring to this scripture in Romans One?

"21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts..."

….Which is exactly what they want! In other words, God further hardens sinners by letting them have what they want - so that they can face the ultimate consequences for their own choices . (Think of the Prodigal Son Parable)

We all know: if you continue to do drugs, obvious consequences await you. If you fool around sexually, you can’t assume immunity from a variety of consequences. If you continue to overeat, you get fat, that that includes all the consequences: heart disease, etc. If you insist on worrying, you ruin your body and mind eventually. ….. You don’t have to be a Christian to know that!

Sadly, a lot of professing Christians think that because they are saved, they have special divine protection from consequences. Of course, you know that is nonsense!

Yet God’s mercy has spared many of natural consequences, including death. I know of some who should have had STDs when they were rebellious teens, but God’s mercy seemed to overrule many times. They sure didn’t deserve it.

For some reason God spares sinners in order to give them plenty time to repent. Each day is a merciful gift. After all,"He is not willing that any should perish".

The point: God’s mercy is a precious gift, not to be assumed. What an awesome God we have!

Am I on the same wave-length as you, Christian?

this is geting deep now for me,

It looks like you can swim!
Diane

H
hmmhmm

qoute:
For some reason God spares sinners in order to give them plenty time to repent. Each day is a merciful gift. After all,"He is not willing that any should perish".

The point: God’s mercy is a precious gift, not to be assumed. What an awesome God we have!

Am I on the same wave-length as you, Christian?

as im reading this..i get tears in my eyes...WHAT A GOD WE HAVE!!!
that is a truth not to often declared.... i must do that more often... MY GOD IS SO GREAT WE DONT EVEN HAVE WORDS TO BEGIN TO DESCRIBE HIM.... but you get a preaty god one in the bible :)

its like i could spend one eternity speaking of his mercy...then probably one more of his awsomeness... and yes it was that passage...
and yes that is what they want.. i sin to ..every day to be honest...but im begining to hate it! i dont want it.... i for very long felt very bad about it... but now i see im blessed :) blessed are those who thirst after rightuessnes :)

for they shall be filled!!

no wonder people will say christians are crasy :) i want to die...so i can be free from sin :) and go be whit him... when one think about thease things...it seeems so much..so imcredible.. one day i will be like him...

ohh god thank you... i pray my life will give glory to your holy name, thank you holy lord jesus...

christian

R
roadsign

its like i could spend one eternity speaking of his mercy ..

Christian, this is my prayer for you: that God’s mercy will be sufficient for you – today and every day here after - on this side of eternity.

"Mercy triumphs over judgment.” James 2:13

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
In his great mercy he has given us new birth
into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

and into an inheritance that can never perish,
spoil
or fade
kept in heaven for you,
who through faith are shielded by God's power
until the coming of the salvation
that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

In this you greatly rejoice,
though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

These have come so that your faith—
of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—
may be proved genuine
and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Though you have not seen him, you love him;
and even though you do not see him now,
you believe in him
and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 1 Pet. 1:3

For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness
and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
in whom we have redemption,
the forgiveness of sins." Eph. 1:7

[b][size=large][color=CC0000](!)[/color][/size][/b]

Diane

I
IRONMAN

brethren
prophecy itself is not necessarily the fortelling of future events. prophecy is communicaing the heart of God. if you look at the wiritngs of the prophets, the vast majority of it is communicating what God is feeling and much less of it has to do with foretelling the future. So prophecy is communicating the Heart of God.

bro Logic said:

Just like the Election of the saints; He knows that we will choose or not choose and then elect those who will according to what He knows we will do.

the problem with this assertation is that the focus shifts every so subtly from God to man. God doesn't elect based on what we will do, that would be salvation based on some sort of work! and we know that we are saved by grace. the election of the saints has absolutely nothing to do with anything you or i could ever do or not do, it is based on God's own sovereign decision.

let us look at Romans chapter 9 and consider what God has said through Paul:

[b]0 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder F35 shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/b]

the election of God works like this in this and all instances: God didn't hate Esau because Esau would reject or sell off his inheritence, the word says that God chose between the 2 BEFORE they were born so that nobody could say that His election was based on works. it is the same with our own election. who among us can say that they have done anything to deserve being called of God? how then can we conclude that God chooses us based on what He sees we will do in future? how is that different from salvation based on works? predestination as it should be understood is the working of God's mercy on whom He'll have mercy and the pouring out of His wrath on whomever He chooses.

also let us consider what Christ said in John chapt 6

[b]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

if God the Father draws men to Christ and then Christ draws them to the Father, that says to me everything rests Entirely on God. Of course some would think this unfair but nay, who are we to talk back to God? shall the pot say to the potter, "why have you made me like this?"

they will not choose God because unless He chooses them first, nothing will happen. it all hinges on the Father and His own will. Now there are some of God's elect who even unto this day are atheists or in some other false faith which we have to reach out to. We are called to be vessels of mercy and there are those who are vessels of wrath also and God has already decided. Does this mean we ought to sit back? of course not! it should actually spur us on to seek God all the more because He has called us to Himself!

so why preach to those who won't hear? Because God says so. do we need any more reason from the Master of all? God told Jeremiah in chapt 7:

[b]5 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: 26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. 27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: F34 truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.[/b]

God told Jeremiah go and tell these people what i told you but they will not listen. of course one would ask "what's the point?" the simple answer is this, because God said so. also on the last day, nobody will be able to say "i didn't get the memo"

I
IRONMAN

sis Diane

you said:

It is never my choice that God dispense mercy on me. That’s up to him. But to think that I passively enter the kingdom or not without the exercise of my choice would be a horrible way to live. I was taught that kind of stuff when I was a kid – and believe me – it’s rotten doctrine. It leaves you feeling so helpless and strips you of personal responsibility. Also, you do a lot of judging. . ex: “Oh, Mr. Hothead, he’s going to hell for sure…” . “I know God can’t possibly love me enough…”, or ‘I’m so good, I know I must be one of his elect.” etc

the last bit about judging shows me that people have missed the point about predestination, it's not according to what we do, it rests on the grace and Mercy of God. Of course this doesn't mean that we should sit on our behinds but we really ought to seek God that much more because we are under His Mercy.

H
hmmhmm

ahh that sums it up :)

its all of his mercy, i know i never did or ever could do anything to deserve it...its just gods soverign choise, and of course we should obey what he commands us to do...

L
Logic

IRONMAN wrote:

bro Logic said:
Just like the Election of the saints; He knows that we will choose or not choose and then elect those who will according to what He knows we will do.
the problem with this assertation is that the focus shifts every so subtly from God to man. God doesn't elect based on what we will do, that would be salvation based on some sort of work!

How false of a statment can this be?
Obediance and faith are not works, for that is what must be done in order to be saved!

Why is anything that has mans part in it called work?
Is prayer work?
Is preaching work?
Is worship work?
These are all based on what we do and will do.

Your are saying that GOD save us even if we don't obay to choose.

[b]"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."[/b]

do you not know that this is talking about nations and not persons?

so why preach to those who won't hear? Because God says so. do we need any more reason from the Master of all? God told Jeremiah in chapt 7:

This would be fiutile, God is not a God of fiutility.
God is only telling Jeremiah what HE knows they will do, not saying that HE is making them disobediant.

R
roadsign

the last bit about judging shows me that people have missed the point about predestination, it's not according to what we do, it rests on the grace and Mercy of God.

Ironman, I’ve been in a hypercalvinism atmosphere, and I can say from personal experience that a false assurance in God’s predestination is really no assurance at all. Even as a kid I wondered why no one had the peaceful assurance that aught to accompany true regeneration. I could see the obsession with works, rules, religiosity, (Hey! Why would you need all that stuff if you are predestined anyway?) In actual fact, the people were NOT depending on God’s sovereign election but on their works. No one CAN depend on their election apart from divine impartation – ie, unless it is real.

Of course this doesn't mean that we should sit on our behinds.
Apart from Christ nobody feels so secure that they sit on their behinds – at least for long. Apart from God, everyone strives in some way or another. They live by rules of some sort, and when their world gets shaky, they try to make more rules - personal or collective. In fact, our entire world system is obsessed with legalistic lawmaking.

Example: We just had a gunning in Montreal, and the response from a teacher was that we should have more gun controls (more rules, less freedoms). Canada just spent billions on trying to implement gun controls, and failed miserably. The farmers were mad because they lost some freedoms. They wanted to keep on shooting groundhogs with out having to suddenly take a gun course and pay for a licence. In the recent shooting the murderer had owned guns that have been illegal for years. In fact, he was an illegal immigrant! So, how on earth are stiffer gun controls going to prevent the next shooting! Only the honest ones register anyway.

Church seems to operate the same way. Every time something goes wrong another rule is added in order to prevent that the offence from ever happening again. So you have huge policy manuals. And it doesn’t seem to matter what doctrinal position a church holds. The further away people are from Christ, the more they depend on rules.

(by the way, I'm not against rules - you need them because the fact it, not everyone is regenerated)

To me, apart from Christ, everyone lives by the same doctrine: law (self) without grace (God). They depend on something outside of themselves. Law-dependent people never learn to think for themselves, or to make responsible choices. They never grow up, and so you have a lot of imature people around.It just gets worse because rules paralyze the mind and the will.

Yet people keep on scrambling for more laws to control the fallout of immaturity. But it never works. It's like pushing a square bolder up a hill. It keeps slipping downward, no matter how hard you push. What a wretched bondage. You eventually wear out and the bolder rolls right over you.

It is the path of death, and there is no way out until God intervenes .... That's where divine election is GOOD NEWS indeed.


Diane

H
hmmhmm

i found this article... it has some to do whit this subject


Man's Will - Free Yet Bound

Walter Chantry

For more than fifteen hundred years the Church has engaged in a heated debate over the freedom of man's will. The major issues came to general attention in the early fifth century when Augustine and Pelagius did battle on the subject. Through medieval times the nature of man's freedom received a great deal of attention. As they studied the Scriptures, Bernard and Anselm made significant contributions to the doctrine of the human will. In the sixteenth century the freedom or bondage of the will was one of the chief issues dividing Reformers and Roman Catholics. To the mind of Martin Luther, it was the key to his dispute with Rome. In the seventeenth century the nature of man's freedom was at the heart of the debate between Arminians and Calvinists. The conflict surfaced again in the eighteenth century during the Great Awakening. Finney's approach to revival in the nineteenth century led the church astray through a misunderstanding of the human will. So too the nature of man's will continues to bring intense disagreement between Reformed and Fundamentalist believers.

A proper understanding of the content of the gospel and the use of GOD-honouring methods in evangelism are dependent on one's grasp of this issue.

Some theologians, both Arminian and Calvinistic, have been quite lucid in their discussions concerning man's will. Others, for example, Jonathan Edwards, have soared into the lofty clouds of philosophy where many a believer faints in the thin air of difficult logic and complex thought. But none is so refreshingly clear as our holy LORD. His instruction on the subject is laced with vivid illustrations to assist our groping minds:

Matthew 12.33-37 says, 'Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.'

In this passage are three verbal windows through which the light of Christ's lesson passes. Each presents a familiar scene. (1) A tree that has fruit - v. 33. (2) A man who brings treasures out of a chest - v. 35. (3) A stream that overflows from a fountain. This last is rather more obscure than the first two, but it is suggested by our LORD's choice of words in v. 34. The word 'abundance' suggests superfluity or overflow.

I. Man has a will and that will has a certain freedom. Our LORD clearly teaches that man has a power of choice. It is important to begin here to disarm opponents of all the foolish accusations that have been brought against the Biblical doctrine of man's will. Every man has the ability to choose his own words, to decide what his actions will be. We have a faculty of self-determination in the sense that we select our own thoughts, words, and deeds. Man is free to choose what he prefers, what he desires.

No one ties fruit on a tree's branches, not even GOD. The tree bears its own fruit. Evil men sin voluntarily; they take evil treasures out of their chests, that is, evil words and deeds. Righteous men are holy by choice; they select good treasures, that is, good words and works. The person who is speaking and acting is completely responsible for his moral behaviour. This power of the will is a vital part of human personality. It always exists in you and me and in all to whom we witness or preach.

GOD never forces men to act against their wills. By workings of outward providence or of inward grace, the LORD may change men's minds, but He will not coerce a human being into thoughts, words or actions. When GOD in His holy wrath sent the Israelites to drive the Canaanites from their land, He also sent hornets against them. There is a children's song which tells the story of these hornets stinging the Canaanites, causing the pagans to flee the land. The chorus then sings:

GOD never compels us to go, Oh no,
He never compels us to go;
GOD does not compel us to go 'gainst our will,
but He just makes us willing to go.

When Saul was converted, the LORD did not compel him to edify the church instead of persecuting it. He added a new factor of inward grace in his soul, consequently Paul changed his decision. GOD may renew the will but He never coerces it.

The Westminster Confession is very careful to assert the liberty of the human will. When it speaks of GOD's eternal decrees, we are told, 'GOD from all eternity did . . . freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is GOD the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.' When discussing Free Will, the Confession begins, 'GOD hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.' Neither by creation nor by subsequent acts of GOD are man's decisions made for him; he is free to choose for himself.

This sort of freedom of the will is essential to responsibility! Having a will is a necessary ingredient to being morally accountable. This is clearly implied in our LORD's words in verses 36 and 37: 'I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.' A man can be condemned only because the words are his own. He was free to bring them out of his treasure chest. They were the overflow of the fountain of his own heart. They are the fruits of his own tree of nature. No one imposed the words on his lips. He chose them. Society, companions, parents cannot be blamed. Idle words are the product of the man's own will.

It is vital for every minister to appreciate the importance of man's will. For in evangelism the will must be addressed. In preaching the gospel we are not only to shine the light of truth upon darkened minds. We are also to appeal to men's perverted wills to choose Christ. Faith is as much an act of the will as it is of the mind. When by the Spirit a mind understands essential truths, by the same Spirit the will must trust Christ. Repentance is a selecting of good and a refusing of evil. Volition is central to faith and repentance.

Indeed, in conversion, a man must make a decision. We shy away from that term because in modern jargon a 'decision' has come to be identified with an outward expression, such as raising the hand or going forward to the front. While such external acts have nothing to do with forgiveness of sins, the heart must make a decision to be saved.

When Christ stood to cry 'If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink,' He was soliciting a willing choice of Himself as satisfying drink for the soul. GOD urges all sinners to come just because they may come. And it is our duty to inform the sinner that he has a warrant, a right to choose Christ. Beyond this, we must assure him that he has a positive duty to embrace the Saviour.

The great guilt of sinners under the gospel is that they will not come. Christ complained in John

5.40: 'Ye will not come to me that ye might have life.' And to Jerusalem He sobbed, 'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not !' There is in the unregenerate hearer of the gospel an obstinate, wilful choice not to come. Hence it is that in flaming fire Christ will come to take vengeance on them that obey not the gospel [2 Thess 1.8]. In the free exercise of their uncoerced wills men have rejected the Son of GOD.

In speaking of responsibility we have implied nothing regarding ability, as will be seen below. But the point is that men have wills which must be addressed as powerfully and directly as their minds and emotions in gospel preaching. Men must be confronted with their responsibility. 'This is the work of GOD, that ye believe into Him whom He hath sent' [John 6.29].

II. Man's Will is not a Sovereign Faculty. Although man does have a will, it is neither independent of all influences nor supreme over all other parts of his personality. This is the next point to be seen in our LORD's teaching.

Pelagians, Roman Catholics, Arminians and Finneyites have all held one common view of the nature of man. They suggest that the will of man is in some way neutral, that it exists in a state of moral suspension. It is their understanding that with equal ease the will can choose good or evil; it can receive or reject Christ. With only degrees of difference and variety of explanation, this is their common opinion. Pelagians have taught that the will is neutral because man's heart is morally neutral. Arminians, on the other hand, acknowledge the human heart to be evil. But they suggest that prevenient grace has hung the will upon a 'sky hook' of neutrality from which it can swing either to receive or to reject the gospel. The common ground, however, is this idea of neutrality. The will, they tell us, is disinterested. Ultimately this controls their entire view of conversion and of sanctification.

It will be noted that our Master taught that the human will is not free from the other faculties of the heart. Far from the will reigning over a man, the will is determined by the man's own character. It is not raised to a position of dominance over the entire man.

Man is like a tree. His heart, not his will alone, is the root. There is no possible way by which the will can choose to produce fruit contrary to the character of the root. If the root is bad, the tree is bound by its very nature to produce evil fruit. Man is like a person standing alongside his treasure chest. There is no possibility of bringing pure gold out of a box filled only with rusty steel. The contents of the heart determine what words and deeds may be brought out. Far from being neutral, the will must reach into the heart for its choices. Every thought, word and deed will partake of the nature of the treasure within. Man is like a stream which cannot rise above its source. If the fountain is polluted, the outflow will be evil. If the source be sweet, the stream will not be bitter and cannot choose to be so.

These three illustrations alike contain the same lesson. What a man is determines what he chooses. Choices of the will always reveal the character of the heart, because the heart determines the choices. Men are not sinners because they choose to sin; they choose to sin because they are sinners. If this were not so, we could never know a tree by its fruits, nor could we judge a man's character by his acts.

In modern times we observe rockets fired so that they escape from the earth's gravity. To accomplish this there is a great complex of electrical wires all woven into one control centre, called in the U.S. 'Mission Control.'

According to the Bible, the heart is the Mission Control of a man's life. The heart is the motivational complex of a man, the basic disposition, the entire bent of character, the moral inclination. The mind, emotions, desires, and will are all wires which we observe; none is independent but all are welded into a common circuit. If mission control is wired for evil, the will cannot make the rockets of life travel on the path of righteousness. The will cannot escape the direction of thoughts, feelings, longings and habits to produce behaviour of an opposite moral quality. 'Will' may be the button which launches the spacecraft. But the launching button does not determine the direction. Direction is dependent upon the complex wiring system.

If the will were able to make decisions contrary to reason, and to the likes and desires of the heart, it would be a monster. You would find yourself in a restaurant ordering all the foods you detest. You would find yourself selecting the company you loathe. But the will is not a monster. It cannot choose without consulting your intelligence, reflecting your feelings, and taking account of your desires. You are free to be yourself. The will cannot transform you into someone else.

This is most profoundly true in the moral and religious realms. When the mind is at war with GOD, denying His truth; when the emotions hate Christ His Son; when the desires wish GOD's law and gospel were exterminated from the earth; the will cannot be in a position to choose Christ. If it were, a man would not be truly free to be himself. Here is the tragic truth about man's will. While free from outward coercion, it is in a state of bondage. It is not in a stated neutrality. It is not a lever with which to move a man's personality from sin to righteousness, from unbelief to faith. This brings us to the third element in Christ's words.

III. Man's Will is in Bondage to Sin. The chains which bind a man's will to sin do not result from the actions of the Omnipotent GOD. The binding chains are the man's own depraved faculties. The prison is his own nature.

Our LORD's rhetorical question in verse 34 brings this home with force: 'O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things ?' Our wise LORD is suggesting that a man must speak as he does because of what he is. To sinners He was saying 'You are unable to choose good words because you possess an evil heart. If the tree is bad, if the treasure chest is filled with evil things alone, if the fountain is bitter, your will cannot produce good words [fruits, treasures, overflow].'

At this point there are very many scriptures which attest to a man's bondage to sin by his own nature. To mention but a few - Jeremiah 13.23: 'Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil;' John 6.44: 'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him;' Romans 8.7: 'The carnal mind . . . is not subject to the law of GOD, neither indeed can be.'

Pelagian, Arminian and modern Fundamentalist support for the moral and spiritual freedom of the will usually centres on one point. We have admitted that man has a responsible freedom. He is free to be himself. He is held accountable for his words and deeds, especially for his receiving or rejecting Christ. On all of this we agree. They use this toehold to argue that the will is not in bondage to sin but has the power of contrary choice. It can do either good or evil, at least when confronted with the gospel. They insist that the responsibility of the will to choose Christ implies ability of the will to choose Christ.

There is no scriptural defence of this belief, none that I have ever seen in print. The argument is completely philosophical. It runs as follows: If a man cannot do good, it would be unjust to punish him as evil. Furthermore, if a sinner cannot repent, it would be foolish to command all men everywhere to repent. GOD is not foolish and He has commanded repentance. Therefore men are able to repent.

We can only reply that those who applaud the powers of the will with such arguments have not read the Bible very carefully. To maintain their philosophical premises they will have to argue with Christ their LORD. For our Prophet tells us in verses 36 and 37 of our text that in the day of judgment men will be held responsible for their evil words. Yet in verse 34 our Teacher tells the very same men that they cannot speak good words because they are bound by their evil character.

Lazarus in his tomb had no ability to respond when our LORD commanded, 'Come forth.' The man who had been impotent for 38 years had no native ability to obey when Jesus commanded him to take up his bed and walk. Nor have modern sinners ability to believe when we preach. 'This is his commandment, that we believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ' [I John 3.23].

When a sinner refuses to come to Christ, he is guilty because he has made a free choice. It reflects his own state of mind, feeling and attitude toward GOD and His Son. He has acted voluntarily without coercion. It is his decision. But the poor sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, could not do otherwise, being evil. It is not necessary for him to have a neutral will, or the ability to do both good and evil, for his action to be held accountable before the Judge of all hearts.

Anselm is very helpful on this matter. This medieval theologian points out that if ability to sin is necessary to true liberty or responsibility, then GOD is neither free nor praiseworthy. For the scriptures teach us that GOD cannot lie. Similarly, saints in glory will be neither free nor responsible; for in eternity the LORD's people have confirmed righteousness. Anselm goes on to show the Biblical emphasis of freedom. True liberty rests in the ability to do good whereas he that does sin is the slave of sin. If true liberty rests in the ability to do good in GOD's sight, then the highest liberty rests in the inability to do otherwise. This highest freedom belongs to the sons of GOD in glory. How Biblical were Anselm's insights!

No doubt Anselm's thinking has influenced the Westminster Confession's wording in the chapter 'Of Free Will.' For it says that Adam 'had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and wellpleasing to GOD.' Yet this freedom was mutable, subject to change. Man could and did lose his liberty in the sense of being able to do good. This is not the same as a man's liberty to be himself. 'Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or prepare himself thereto.'

Bernard was very near the truth when he wrote of our condition in Adam: 'The soul, in some strange and evil way, is held under this kind of voluntary, yet sadly free necessity, both bond and free; bond in respect of necessity, free in respect of will: and what is still more strange, and still more miserable, it is guilty because free, and enslaved because guilty, and therefore enslaved because free.'

We have seen that man is free to be himself and therefore is enslaved to sin by a wicked heart. And this brings us to the most profound truth regarding the salvation of souls. It is crucial to our preaching. It is vital to saving impressions in our hearers.

IV. Man's Will is not his Hope. Our LORD has taught that the tree must be made good. Man must be renewed in his entire character. He must have a new heart to bring forth good fruit; the will cannot make the tree good; it may only exercise liberty to be what the tree already is. The will cannot reload the treasure chest with a new kind of goods; it may only freely bring forth what is there. The will cannot cleanse the fountainhead; it may overflow only with the waters available in the soul.

Any gospel preaching that relies upon an act of the human will for the conversion of sinners has missed the mark. Any sinner who supposes that his will has the strength to do any good accompanying salvation is greatly deluded and far from the kingdom. We are cast back upon the regenerating work of the Spirit of the living GOD to make the tree good. Unless GOD does something in the sinner, unless GOD creates a clean heart and renews a right spirit within man, there is no hope of a saving change.

While we address the wills of men in gospel preaching, they are wills bound in the grave clothes of an evil heart. But as we speak, and the LORD owns His word, sinners are quickened to life by divine power. His people are made willing in the day of His power [Psa 110.3]. All who are adopted as sons of GOD were 'born not of the will of man, but of GOD.' [John 1. 13] We stand to preach with no power to make the tree good. The 'trees' before us cannot make themselves good, so no gimmicks or policies of men can persuade them to make the change. But our glorious GOD, by inward, secret, transforming power, can make the tree good, the treasures good, the fountain good. Thus all glory be to GOD and to the Lamb! Salvation is of the LORD!


I
IRONMAN

bro Logic

How false of a statment can this be?
Obediance and faith are not works, for that is what must be done in order to be saved!

the thing is obedience and faith are attained [i][b]because[/b][/i]we are saved. i'll concede we have some measure of obedience and faith before we are saved but it is not sufficient for God's loft purposes which is why we must put on Christ in ALL things because only through Him can all things be done.

and man does have a work to do for God. The prayers, preaching and so on must be unctioned by God because anything that stems from self is not acceptable before God.

Your are saying that GOD save us even if we don't obay to choose

no actually i'm saying we are saved by God and obey Him because we are called by Him. Once He has called us there is no going back. again this means we have that much more responsibility to seek Him because He has called us to Himself.

do you not know that this is talking about nations and not persons?

but what are nations made up of though bro if not people? did Edom not come forth from Esau? Did Israel not come from Jacob?

This would be fiutile, God is not a God of fiutility.

indeed, He is not a God of futility, but does your definition of what futility is match His? but even though the attempt to warn His people appears futile to you because nobody listened, He sent Jeremiah out there anyway.

God is only telling Jeremiah what HE knows they will do, not saying that HE is making them disobediant.

if God can harden the heart of Pharaoh...whether it be by letting the enemy in or whatever means, then that lets me know He is in control...i prefer it that way!then there is Romans 9 15-18

[b]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [/b]

then vs 22
[b]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction:And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [/b]

at the end of the day, it all rests on God who shows mercy as He sees fit. For me predestination is all about the mercy of God and indeed that is how it is to be seen so that it is plain to us that it's not about us but it's all about Him.

I
IRONMAN

sis Diane

Ironman, I’ve been in a hypercalvinism atmosphere, and I can say from personal experience that a false assurance in God’s predestination is really no assurance at all. Even as a kid I wondered why no one had the peaceful assurance that aught to accompany true regeneration. I could see the obsession with works, rules, religiosity, (Hey! Why would you need all that stuff if you are predestined anyway?) In actual fact, the people were NOT depending on God’s sovereign election but on their works. No one CAN depend on their election apart from divine impartation – ie, unless it is real.

sis diane God just blessed my soul this day through your post. indeed nobody can claim predestination unless God has quickened them to it, outside of that you're just ripping and running unsure of where you stand. There is no need for all the jumping through hoops if you have been quickened of God to your election. then being in Christ the drive is then to seek the glory of God in all things so the works which are done are pleasing to Him.

Church seems to operate the same way. Every time something goes wrong another rule is added in order to prevent that the offence from ever happening again. So you have huge policy manuals. And it doesn’t seem to matter what doctrinal position a church holds. The further away people are from Christ, the more they depend on rules.

whoa, i never looked at it like that. the closer one is to Christ the less the rules come from without or the less one leans on rules and the more one leans on Christ huh?

It is the path of death, and there is no way out until God intervenes .... That's where divine election is GOOD NEWS indeed.

AMEN, AMEN and AMEN!

thank you Father, Son and Holy Ghost!

R
roadsign

There is no need for all the jumping through hoops if you have been quickened of God to your election.

Ohhhh, it's such a delight to meet someone who understands - I mean, really understands!

Doesn't that make the volumes of endless debate about the fine points of doctrine seem rather pointless It can never get resolved because it is merely a rambling about theoretical positions that have very little connection with the heart of the matter. No wonder people get confused...... yes really confused ................

Diane

I
IRONMAN

sis Diane

Ohhhh, it's such a delight to meet someone who understands - I mean, really understands!

the feeling is mutual sis Diane!!!and you know with that all the arguments and disagreements melt away and become of no consequence. When God has His hand on you and you know it, nothing else matters because you realize He has it all in hand...

God bless you sis

L
Logic

What do you think salvation is?
Do you think it is a thing that we recieve?
In fact, it is not, it is a ralationship, which is not one sided as you think.

IRONMAN wrote:
if God can harden the heart of Pharaoh...whether it be by letting the enemy in or whatever means, then that lets me know He is in control...i prefer it that way!then there is Romans 9 15-18
He only harden the heart of Pharaoh after Pharaoh himself hardend it, so in other words, He gave him what he wanted.
indeed, He is not a God of futility, but does your definition of what futility is match His? but even though the attempt to warn His people appears futile to you because nobody listened, He sent Jeremiah out there anyway.
God has the same definitions of the words we use, otherwise we couldn't communicate.
do you not know that this is talking about nations and not persons?
but what are nations made up of though bro if not people? did Edom not come forth from Esau? Did Israel not come from Jacob?

You cant use a Scripture about a nation for election of individuals.
Your are saying that GOD save us even if we don't obay to choose
no actually i'm saying we are saved by God and obey Him because we are called by Him. Once He has called us there is no going back.

This , again is false.
Many are called but few are chosen.
There have been maney who depart from the faith, don't say that they were never saved in the first place or they will still go to heaven.
......Obediance and faith are not works, for that is what must be done in order to be saved!
the thing is obedience and faith are attained becausewe are saved. i'll concede we have some measure of obedience and faith before we are saved .....

Now your just contradicting yourself, and in turn agreeing with me.

H
hmmhmm

i see...two "sides" here... but i dont think what side one sides on matter to our salvation... but some intresting stuff...

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