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Re discussion about CCM

V
Valadar

Hi to all my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Its been a while. I am finding this post very interesting and very enlightening to read. I personally do not think anymore that you can give God glory through music mixed with the world because in doing that you are offering something unclean to the Lord. I believe the worship we offer God must be set apart from the world. I used to believe that it didn't matter what "christain music" a christian listened to, because God looks on the heart and not on the outside. Until a fellow brother of mine named Gavin told me about the dangers of offering the Lord such music. He told me as it says in Genesis that every seed yields after its own kind. If this is true then music that was concieved in rebellion such as rock cannot be acceptable to the Lord, because of his holiness. Also he pointed out in the Word when Ahab(I think) and another priest can remember his name) offered strange fire before the Lord and the Lord caused the earth to swollow them. Now to me this is pretty clean that if we offer such music before the Lord that he will not accept in because of the holiness of His character. Though I do believe the Lord grants mercy and grace to those who worship him in an ignorant manner. But I do not believe anymore, that he accepts it.

Also I did my own study into this and found out some interesting facts, did you know that the melody is supposed to complement the lyrics?above all else, whatever the music/worship offered to the Lord, should bring out the truth of His Glorious Charater in all respects.
(His Holiness, His grace, His lovliness

Blessings to you all in Christ
Craig
:-D

D
Dougmore

Hi bro Craig,

I agree with your post and must say that I left CCM not to long ago. To be honest, a cappella has to be the most balanced, (melody/lyrics) than any other form of music. I highly recommend it.

www.alterofpraise.com has some really good artists on there.

bro Doug

S
sermonindex

The language of the rock beat music is, "Do what you want to do."

S
sermonindex

All types of music are used by the world, so what 'genre' shall we call it should be used in church then?

You have really opened a can of worms, a can that has been opened too many times I think, and never concluded.

X
xMicahx

It's hard. What do we use in church? Some churches use the hymns and can truely worship. I've seen others that do and it's so dry; people just sing the words while their hearts and minds are somewhere else. On the other hand a lot of contemporary services seem to be more free in worship, some allow people to dance before their Lord, sit in awe of His holiness. But, they can appeal more to the flesh...then again so can hymns.

I once heard a quote and I'm reluctant to mention it because I cant remember the person or the exact quote but in essence the man was criticizing the worldy worship music used in church. The only catch was, this man made his statement hundreds of years ago refuting the very same hymns we hold dearly to as holy, anointed, and godly worship.

There is really good, doctrinally correct ccm music out there, and not all our hymns we sing are correct anyway. Take "away in the manger" for instance, "no crying He makes?" Where in the Bible does it say Jesus never cried as an infant? I know He cried durring His ministry though.

Psalm 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Psa 98:5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
Psa 98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
Psa 98:7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Psa 98:8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together

I dont know...I just want to worship my Lord and Savior because He is worthy to be worshiped. He is worthy to recieve Glory, and i'm going to try my hardest not to get stuck in a rut. I'm not going to let someone cheapen the already dirty rags i have to offer Him in worship. It's not much but its all I have, and when my heart is there for the right reasons and i'm caught up in His presence, I know He delights in it; no matter what earthly words i use or music I play...David played the music of his times and the Lord delighted in it.

J
Jacob19

You are right in saying that sometimes hymns are kind of dry, depending on if the spirit comes or not. The reason that modern worship is hardly ever dry is because it is so full of emotionalism, the guitar solos, the keyboards, and so on. We are to worship in SPIRIT and in truth. Most of our worship today is in SOUL and sometimes truth. Also I agree with Keith Daniel when he says "Entertainment in the house of God is SIN!"

X
xMicahx

Yeah, but I think worship should be emotional- just like prayer. When I am worshiping in spirit and in truth and I have that connection with God...When I get that glimpse of His holiness and I see my current state, I will get emotional. And yes, when I'm leading worship, I can appeal to everyone's emotions with the music. I could probably put most of them on their knees or get them jumping, but I won't make the worship happen. I don't think the question should be about the type of music or the instruments. I mean, God can take the worst things and make them good. He changes us from glory to glory, that's His heart. The question is, are you going to worship in spirit and in truth for all God deserves or are you going to judge in your own heart and miss an opportunity to worship God. If we miss even a minute...it's gone, that chance to adore Jesus, wasted. Let God judge. I think as long as we worship to the level of our spiritual maturity, glorify God the best we can, and have a heart like David's...It'll be ok. I promise, the Kingdom of God will not fall if a ccm song is used to worship.

S
sermonindex

Quote:

'Yeah, but I think worship should be emotional- just like prayer.'

Careful, now. It is all too easy to get caught up in the moment and the emotion of it all. You can feel happy during worship without having met with God. I did it for years.

I enjoyed the music, sang loud and proud but that was the problem - i enjoyed the music. I never met with God. Until I focused on the words.

I always think that you want spiritual happiness and joy, not emotional happiness and joy. I think that they are two seperate things.

X
xMicahx

I totally agree, one can worship the emotion not the Lord. But when I look at examples of worship in the Bible they seem to be emotional. I'm not saying everyone has to be emotional all the time because that's how the Spirit flows, but if that's where the Lord takes you I bet its ok.

R
roaringlamb

Two of the bigger problems I see with the CCM groups are
1) The majority of them claim they are evangelizing the masses with their music. But GOD has ordained that the "preaching" of the Gospel be the means of it getting out(Rom 10). So if this is the case can we use music to win souls? or should we use the money spent on these concerts to enable men and women to preach full-time?
2) The vast majority of CCM labels are now owned by major secular labels. Thus they market, and pander to wordly wisdom to sell a product. So whatever happened to not being unequally yoked together with unbelievers?
I see very little fruit from alot of these "festivals". For they seem just like the secular versions. Mosh pits should not be involved with anything labeled Christian. :-)
Let us hold the CCM bands up to this Scripture and see how they stand
[b]"Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. "[/b]

D
daniel-

Mosh pits should not be involved with anything labeled Christian.

why is that?

R
roaringlamb

[b]Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. [/b]

Do you think that beating upon each other is brotherly affection? I suppose if the Spirit has not convicted you about this then carry on. Many though do not even ask GOD if this is proper behaviour for those naming Christ.
The scriptures do also admonish us to "avoid every appearance of evil". What would you think if you saw a group of youth in a pit? Would you say "my what godly kids", I would like to follow their God.

M
Majorpancake

"Entertainment in the house of God is SIN!"
i just wanted to say this is completely false.

Everything about church, prayer and worship is entertaining to my heart. Because i delight myself in God.

P
PaulWest

Everything about church, prayer and worship is entertaining to my heart.

"Entertainment is the devil's substitute for joy."
Leonard Ravenhill

I think I understand what you're trying to say: God delights your heart, and brings joy to your spirit. Yes! This is true! However, we musn't confuse joy and the delight of the Holy Spirit with entertainment. Entertainment is a different creature altogether, cheap and superficial...soulish. Entertainment is but surface deep, induced by the fleshly thrills of the world.

Webster's New World College Dictionary defines the concept of "entertainment" as such:

[b]Entertainer -[/b] a person who entertains; esp., a popular singer, dancer, comedian, etc.

[b]Entertaining -[/b] interesting and pleasurable, diverting; amusing

[b]Entertainment -[/b] something that entertains, interesting, diverting, or amusing thing; esp., a show or performance

I don't know about you, but this about perfectly sums up the apostate church here in North America! The Holy Spirit is [i]not[/i] an entertainer. True worship is [i]not[/i] a performance. The Jews did not go to Shiloh to be entertained. Solomon did not build the temple to be a house of amusement. Entertainment is a most erroneous word when relating to the things of God.

Holy reverence, unspeakable joy, rapturous praise, and fear and trembling I think are more suitable choices! The reason the church sees the Christian experience as 'entertainment' is because the fear of the Lord and the concept of His eternal majesty have all but vanished.

Brother Paul

M
mamaluk

Amen, PaulWest

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him [b]MUST[/b] worship him [b]in spirit and in truth.[/b]

Colossians 3:16
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace [b]in your hearts to the Lord.[/b]..

In our hearts, to the Lord, not at somebody !

D
daniel-

Do you think that beating upon each other is brotherly affection? I suppose if the Spirit has not convicted you about this then carry on. Many though do not even ask GOD if this is proper behaviour for those naming Christ.

I understand your point.
But i don't agree. It's always difficult to argue about those things.
As i posted in another thread i've struggled a long time with god about those things, music in general and so on.
And i've come finally to my peace and I know it is from god.
And you know what i believe?
You can praise god in the pit.
Propably you'll say im crazy or gone astray, but thats ok :)

Do you know the Jesus Freaks?
God used them to show me something.
The Jesus freaks are...very freaky.
Their outward appereance is surely not what most people here would call proper.
They are so totally different people.
And I really judged this in my heart.
But i saw their passion for christ, they may not be in line with your "standart" but they burn for Jesus.
They reach the drug addicts, the freaks, the people who are in the pit.
It's marvelous what happens there.
God gently rebuked me through these people.
I still not agree with some things they do, but they have passion for Jesus and they really impact the world of the "freaks".

just my 2 cents, maybe i have gone a littl bit off topic, sorry for that.

S
sermonindex

Look at the root and you will understand the fruit.

Mosh pits originated not in the church but in the rebelliousness of the secular concert scene.

We recently had a concert on our base and there was a mosh pit. Three soldiers had to go to the hospital and there were several more with sprains and minor injuries. This is the fruit of the mosh pit. There is a little more that happens in mosh pits that I will not go into.

Love not the world nor the things in the world.

It's not hard to see fleshly means vs spiritual means. It becomes blurred when we reason from a worldy perspective first then try and bend the spirit into it. I have made this error several times as a christian and I always must correct my reasoning. Always reason from the Spirit and the scriptures first.

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things..." 1 cor 2:15 God bless, John

S
sermonindex

The moderator has posted a new thread from A.W. Tozer "Glamor instead of Glory". The spirit of the devotional applies to this topic as well.
God bless,John

S
sermonindex

There are many problems with CCM today. It mostly has to do with money, fame, and greed.

But while we all sit here and try to decide what kind of music is acceptable for a believer to listen to, lets remember that all thru history church music was influenced by the music of the culture.

There is a true story of a church where the members were so upset that contemporary instrumentation had been introduced into their church that they hauled the instrument out of the building and dumped it in a river. When was this? A long long time ago... and the instrument was an ORGAN.

Let's also not forget that many of some of you folks who have contributed to this thread, as well as other threads on this topic, praise Keith Green for his no compromising stand for Jesus Christ. Keith Green has been condemned by some in the church because most of his music was ROCK MUSIC.

Am I saying every CCM artist is right on? Absolutely not. The CCM industry is corrupt, and has been for a long long time. Thats why for several decades now Larry Norman has been releasing CD's without any record company at all. People like him refuse to be a part of an industry.

I am not taking a stand for CCM, please dont misunderstand me. But I know many people who do play in bands, etc... and they are some of the most solid Christians I know.

It is not right to put a blanket condemnation on music as an art form. I challenge anyone reading this to tell me their favorite artist... and I will find someone on the internet that has written against that artist for performing music that is too contemporary. I've read pieces that claimed that George Beverly Shea was too contemporary!

These types of discussions go around and around with no apparent conclusion because no one can back up their claims with scripture. If they do, it usually has something to do with not being like the world. Fine, that verse is correct. But in the context y'all will use it, you then must join an Amish community.

Here's a good scripture to think about when you wish to say that the use of contemporary music to evangelize and minister is not of God:

[i]1 Co. 9:19-23 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: [b]I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.[/b] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you."[/i]


Krispy

S
sermonindex

These convo's go round and round with no apparent conclusion cuz no one can back up what they say with scripture.

First, while not every single person will agree the convo must be had for many reasons.
One reason is because alot and I mean alot of christians have a hard time excepting the current ccm invasion into the church. So naturally it must be addressed and talked about.

Second the guidelines in scripture for music are psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, Thats in Ephesians. Also make melody in your heart. Now I suggest anyone who cares simply look in a Strongs concordence or on an online bible program. Type in melody in the KJV and you will get some scriptures.Also look up the one from ephesians and do cross refrence from there. You will get a solid scriptural picture of worship and music and instruments. It's there just do the look up.

Keith Green initialy gave up his music then struggled and picked it back up. Keith was young and still had alot to learn,( like all of us).
Regardless of keith's fire and zeal he was not completly correct about rock music in the church.
And for what it's worth if he could see today what the ccm root has produced he would be shocked and probably get out the axe and start cutting at the root. what I have wrote about Keith will offend some but it is not my intent.Alos some may think Keith would be o.k. with it. I' don't really want to argue about Keith Green.

The claims of hymns to beer tunes and etc. are not accurate. The research is out there to show this is a misrepresentation.

"All things to all men" is an abused scripture. Like Peter said, men misunderstand what Paul said and bascially get in trouble. I've seen christians use this for justification of hitting the bar for a beer or two cuz then his work buddies will be more apt to listen to him. Christian are mutilating there bodies with peercings and tattoo's and using the same scripture.They forget that they are UNDERLAW TO CHRIST.

Look it's the old conform, compromise, appease the world and then maybe they will listen mentality. Often this starts in the christian mind with the best of intentions., but it ends up falling short. It's the "let's show the world we christians can do almost all things unbeilevers can and yet they got Jesus so hey give Jesus a chance.

Lastly, I know that there are sincere christian ccm's I belive they love the Lord. But I also know several who have seen ccm for what it is and have gotten out of it and back to psalms hymns and spiritual songs. There is a very good book that came out just a few years ago on the subject. I don't remember the name but I will get it.

In the previous ccm thread I strongly suggested Frank Garlocks , "The Language of Music"videos Also Hells Bells 2 video . from apologeticsgroup.com

Off I go for now. Lord bless as we continue to sharpen one another, John

S
sermonindex

O.K. found the naem of the new book. It's called Why I left Contemporary Christian Music Movement:confessions of a former worship leader. By Dan lucarini.
A very excellent simple book to read. He explains it from several different angles some of which we haven't really covered in these threads. He brings it together. There are also many other books on ccm but of course they don't really make it into the book list at the local store.

M
myfirstLove

quote
"And i've come finally to my peace and I know it is from god.
And you know what i believe?
You can praise god in the pit."

-daniel,

this is not from God. there is no way you can praise God in a mosh pit. thats insane! i've moshed a couple of times before and use to be around stuff like this all the time before coming to Christ. yes, little me use to to mosh and once i thought i was going to die. moshing is violent. there is nothing pure, lovely, and meek about moshing (phil. 4:8). moshing is full of flesh and it feeds your old man.

1 Thessalonians 4:11
11Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,

so how's moshing encouraging them to lead a quiet life? moshing is physical violence that teaches people that its o.k to bring out negative emotions and let it loose on other people.

quote
"The Jesus freaks are...very freaky.
Their outward appereance is surely not what most people here would call proper."

so your saying their appearance is showy, worldly? christian are commanded to dress modestly. not to look and act like the world.


1 Timothy 2:9

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,

1 John 2:15

15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

if the jesus freaks want to win these people to Christ that is a wrong way of doing it. it sounds like the jesus freaks think that if they look and act outwardly freaking that they will win the freaks. pleasing men will create false converts. did Christ dress like and act like drunkard, harlot, to win them? no! He did not depend on worldly things to win them. His dependence was on the Father.

the way that many christians are trying to win the world is an embarrassment! they do not believe in the power of the cross or else they would be preaching it and living it. instead, they want to entertain the lost to win them. look at Jesus life, paul's, many of the old saints. they were utterly dead to self. suffered inwardly and outwardly to win souls. there life was not there own to do as they please. they weren't on stage having loads of fun, moshing and dancing with their fans. no! they labored ernestly in prayer, weeping and fasting for souls, denying themselves of worldly pleasure that they may fellowship in the sufferings of Christ and be conformed to His death.
these men died daily, love not their life, suffered hardship from men who despise the preaching of the cross of Christ. these are the real freaks! because they are nothing like the world. their life were truly sold out to Christ and the world despised such men, especially the religouse pharisees hated them.

pharisees- those who appear outwardly clean, but inside are still filled with greed and lust of the world.

Matthew 23:25

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.

this verse exposed alot of christian entertainers. surely if it was all for Christ they wouldn't have videos and posters of themselves looking all glamorouse, edgy and beautiful, they wouldn't live in luxury homes, attending the dove awards, signing autogaraphs and charging people more money for something they boast is for Christ. having concerts to be praised and love by men! how wicked!

how can we read about the saints of old knowing how much they suffered and died to themselves to win souls and think that most of these entertainers are partaking in the same death as the other saints, as JESUS?!

so most of these christian entertainers can look and act like the world, but the rest of christianity has to die to self?

todays pharisical churches are making a mockery out of Jesus, and His saints. while the false churches are having fun entertaining the lost and partying with them, the real saints are pouring out their life for souls!

quote
"It's always difficult to argue about those things."

it is a very sad and dangerouse time we are living in when many christian cannot tell the evil from holy. calling evil holy and the things holy evil.

Ezekiel 22:26

26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

but, praise God, He has raised up the sons of zadoks to teach the difference!

Ezekiel 44:23

23 “And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the unholy, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


i cannot believe how many christians tolerate and are deceived by many things that call itself christianity. and those who dare expose such filth are called judgemental and unloving!

Father have mercy! for your people have committed adultery with the world. they have allowed the world to defiled them and their own. You have called us to be set apart, but many have despised Your commandments. God help us and break us!!! pour out Your Spirit and expose us that we may see our wicked intent and be put to shame and cry out to You to cleanse us and revive us back to You again!

S
sermonindex

First, while not every single person will agree the convo must be had for many reasons. One reason is because alot and I mean alot of christians have a hard time excepting the current ccm invasion into the church. So naturally it must be addressed and talked about.

I can agree with that.

Second the guidelines in scripture for music are psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, Thats in Ephesians. Also make melody in your heart. Now I suggest anyone who cares simply look in a Strongs concordence or on an online bible program. Type in melody in the KJV and you will get some scriptures.Also look up the one from ephesians and do cross refrence from there. You will get a solid scriptural picture of worship and music and instruments. It's there just do the look up.

I would submit to you that the song "Broken Promises" by the Resurrection Band is a spiritual song. I would submit to you that the song "Sweet Sweet Song of Salvation" by Larry Norman is a spiritual song. I would submit to you that the song "Saved" by Third Day (written by Bob Dylan during his "born again" phase) is a spiritual song.

"Broken Promises" tugs at my heart whenever I hear it because it's a song that talks about our failures as humans, and God's unfailing love for us. "Song of Salvation" and "Saved" are both songs that easily become melodies in our hearts because it's wonderful to be saved.

So... I fail to see your point.

Keith Green initialy gave up his music then struggled and picked it back up.

This is not true. If you know anything about Keith, his spiritual journey was long and intense, and he always expressed his journey through his music. He was a regular performer at the Blah Blah Cafe in Hollywood when he finally gave his heart to the Lord... and he used his performances there to evangelize his friends and patrons. He was eventually asked to leave. He continued to pursue a contract with a secular record company until he was rejected one too many times... and he took that as a sign that God wanted him to perform Christian music... and the only relunctance he had was he didnt want to produce just another "cheesey" Christian album.

At no time did Keith lay his music down. The only time the thought crossed his mind was after he had matured, and he saw that people seemed to "idolize" him, instead of focussing on the Lord.

Fact is, at the time of his death, Keith was considering recording a secular album in order to reach more people than just the church. That's a fact his own widow verifies.

Would Keith be upset at todays CCM industry. Yes, absolutely. I am too! I am on your side with that one.

The claims of hymns to beer tunes and etc. are not accurate. The research is out there to show this is a misrepresentation.

I never claimed that. I simply said that church music throughout history has been influenced by the music of the culture. Thats a fact. I never said anything about copying beer songs... altho it is true that some hymns were made from some folk songs.

"All things to all men" is an abused scripture. Like Peter said, men misunderstand what Paul said and bascially get in trouble. I've seen christians use this for justification of hitting the bar for a beer or two cuz then his work buddies will be more apt to listen to him. Christian are mutilating there bodies with peercings and tattoo's and using the same scripture.They forget that they are UNDERLAW TO CHRIST.

We should never conform to sin. I agree with that. You obviously havent gotten to know me yet. But music is not sin. What we DO with music is sin. We're talking about music... but you want to bring in beer drinking, mutilation, etc. I always enjoyed Petra's music... but it's never driven me stark raving mad, made me drink beer, get an ear ring and then find someone to do evil to. Actually, I've found their music to be uplifting and edifying. The Bible says that's what we're to do to one another. Petra has lived up to that.

Look it's the old conform, compromise, appease the world and then maybe they will listen mentality. Often this starts in the christian mind with the best of intentions., but it ends up falling short. It's the "let's show the world we christians can do almost all things unbeilevers can and yet they got Jesus so hey give Jesus a chance.

Fact is, Christian music really only goes so far as the door of the church. No one is really reaching the world who has a strong message. I dont know anyone who is a heathen who is rushing out to buy the next Third Day CD. Anyone who thinks CCM is reaching the world is kidding themselves.

Now that I have countered your points let me say this:

[b]I am against the CCM industry, and I am NOT impressed with most CCM artists.[/b]

It's become an idol maker system. It's all about corporate now, and ALL non-private CCM record companies are secular owned. Including the companies that produce praise and worship music. Why secular owned? They finally realized there is a lot of $$ involved. When a Chrisian artist signs a record deal with a secular owned Christian label they are then unequally yoked with unbelievers. The focus is on the artist, not Christ. Just look at the CD covers. Especially the female artists. Most now are getting provacative.

I dont believe it's the music. It's the church. It's the lack of real preaching. It's spineless preachers who wont preach against sin. It's easy to blame music. Not so easy to blame ourselves for not being people of the Book.

i cannot believe how many christians tolerate and are deceived by many things that call itself christianity. and those who dare expose such filth are called judgemental and unloving!

I havent called you "judgemental and unloving". Gee... I'm usually the one getting called that! I just disagree with your conclusions of what the problem is. There is a problem! But it's not musical styles. It's hearts.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

By the way... I agree that body slamming in a mosh pit is [b]not[/b] worshipping God... and it's foolishness to think that it is.

Krispy

R
Runoff

hello. I thought I'd just share this link with anybody here.

[url=http://www.christourlife.ca/Free_Worship.html]Christ our Life[/url]

They have free worship music here that anybody can listen to. Personally, I have been blessed by the songs because it is very scriptural. blessings!

S
sermonindex

One more thing... one really major problem with Christian music... there is no one doing anything artistically creative! Everything from worship, praise, pop, rock, country is all homogenized. I never listen to Christian radio because it's all the same. I cant tell one singer from the next. The music sounds all the same. It's worse than muzak!

I refuse to be a cookie-cutter Christian and just go along with what everyone thinks Christian music should be.

Here we are... serving the Creator of the universe... but when it comes to artistic creativity in the church, it's either squashed or ignored.

Someone please do something mildly intersting!

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

John,

There is a very good book that came out just a few years ago on the subject. I don't remember the name but I will get it.

Is this the title of the book you are referring to: "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement" by Dan Lucarini?

ginnyrose

M
myfirstLove

I havent called you "judgemental and unloving". Gee... I'm usually the one getting called that! I just disagree with your conclusions of what the problem is. There is a problem! But it's not musical styles. It's hearts.

if you read my post again, i was not speaking of the musical styles, but exposing the heart of many christian entertainers.

God bless

M
Matthew2323

Krispy,

Here are a few musicians that I enjoy. Two of the more well-know but not necessarily popular within CCM are Michael Card and Steve Camp. You might enjoy Steve Camp’s 107 Theses that he wrote calling CCM musicians to create beautiful and theologically sound music.

www.michaelcard.com
www.aim.org

You may also enjoy the compositions of Ron Owens. Ron Owens has been burdened for revival for a number of years now and leads music at conferences with men like Richard Owen Roberts and Henry Blackaby.

www.owensministries.org

Judy Rogers is another if you are looking for a feminine touch. She has some wonderful recordings for children as well. “Go to the Ant” has been a favorite of my little ones.

www.judyrogers.com

S
sermonindex

You can say countered my points I say you complimented them, meaning added further to the discussion. My post was not exclusively direct at one krispy but for all to examine and be moved on.

It's been probably 10 years since I read "no compromise" and perhaps I am remembering the laying down the music differently. However again I am not here to sidetrack on the for or against Keith greens take on things.

Butterfly kisses tugs at my heart fine whatever. Tugging at the heart does not necessarly qualify as a "spiritual song". The songs you sited may indeed be spiritual I don't know haven't heard them.

Again for all do the scripture resaerch and check out the material I recommended. It will help understand this a whole lot better than my measly posts. God bless, John

S
sermonindex

Yes ginnyrose that is the correct title. God bless, john

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sermonindex

Matthew... I've been listening to Steve Camp since I was saved. He's kind of a second generation Keith Green (even tho I think he and Keith would be the same age if Keith was still alive).

He is a fine example of an artist who is contemporary who's songs are very spiritual. In fact, I respect Steve Camp a lot because he has a couple of pastors review his lyrics to ensure they are doctrinally sound. I would suggest he is probably one of the only ones who does that!

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

Krispy wrote:

The music sounds all the same.

And I thought I was the only one who thought like this!

One of greatest problems with CCM as I see it is the lack of meaningful lyrics. They tell ya nothing! If a song says God is great, it needs to say in the song what God did that had earned him this distinction! Words are repeated over and over and over without teaching you anything about the details. If you study the Psalms and notice how they are composed, you will discover a lot about what God has done to earn him the praise David writes about.

Much of CCM is lyric poor. How is it that worldly music can be lyric rich in the sense it tells you a lot? teaches people how to be rebellious, sinful in detail. But CCM cannot teach people how to be rightous, or holy. Something is bad wrong with this picture.

The repeating of phrases harks back to the new age mantra of repeating empty words to evoke a response. Jesus warns us about using vain repetitions: (Matt. 6:7)"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." The Greek definition for the word "pray" includes worship.

Krispy, perhaps you may have to listen to Amish music if you desire something more creative!! Actually, I have an Amish CD!! No kidding! Hey, they can sing well! And the singers are Amish! When they sing English songs in four part harmony it is beautiful! And where did I find this CD? At a Provident bookstore at Goshen, IN years ago. :-D

My opinion is that when people are living for the flesh it impairs their musical creativity. SO listen to Handel.....He says that when he was composing the Hallelujah Chorus it was as though all heaven opened up and he had a hard time keeping up in his composing. Experts say the original manuscripts look as though this was the case. But you cannot listen to the Messiah all the time either...

My opinions...
ginnyrose

R
roadsign

I think that the real problem is that the service is given far too much prominence in our lives. Our service, along with our church buildings, along with the entire religious system easily becomes our sacred idol. If we’d stop worshipping our worship, and get on with the business of loving our neighbor, forgiving those who sin against us, etc, then the issues surrounding music would die out. Then we wouldn't be fueling the CCM industry with so much of our offerings. You can't have the best of both worlds without some degree of compromise.

"Entertainment in the house of God is SIN!"
i just wanted to say this is completely false.

Everything about church, prayer and worship is entertaining to my heart. Because i delight myself in God.


I get your point, Majorpancake. It so happens that what’s edifying to one may be offensive to another, or mere shallow pleasure to another. To some extent it depends on individual consciences.

You never win in this game of trying to put church music in a box. Just multiply the following story by infinity. Insert violins, pianos, singing in harmony, eighth notes dress codes for the performers, etc etc.

where the members were so upset that contemporary instrumentation had been introduced into their church that they hauled the instrument out of the building and dumped it in a river. When was this? A long long time ago... and the instrument was an ORGAN.

CCM is just as bad. They have a lot of rules. One main rule presides all other rules: Whatever sells. Someone told me that they don’t allow a stand-up bass, but require a bass guitar instead. They overproduce everything they release. They sanitize it, and it sounds like it. Those who have a keen musical ear, and value the freedom to create their own sound, find the rules frustrating.

It’s always been like that. Churches have always been cramping the musicians by their efforts to sanitize church music. They might be able to box in average musicians, but not the gifted ones. J S Bach was a good example. If he had followed the religious (or cultural) trends of his day, no one would have heard of him today. (Mind you it wasn't till many years after his death that this godly man became recognized as the genious that he was.)


On Monday mornings people will go and buy the CD’s they want, and download what they want. We shouldn’t get so bent out of shape about church music. We just end up committing more sins than we fix: we fight, bicker, cause splits, etc.


One nearby church chose a unique solution: Don’t allow anyone to play at all. The leaders thought that this would avoid pride, competition, and jealousy among the musicians. So they all sang hymns to CD’s. That is the Javex solution: sterilize the place of sin. Such bandaid solutions never give anyone the opportunity to grow and mature through tension and resolving conflict. You end up with sterile, impotent Christians.

My not-so-great thought of the day:
I suspect that if we applied the same screening methods to the Bible as Christians have applied to music over the centuries, we wouldn't have much of it left - maybe Jesus with kids on his knees...... Oh, No! We wouldn't even have that! That's just not proper in this day and age.

Best comment so far:

a cappella has to be the most balanced, (melody/lyrics) than any other form of music. I highly recommend it.

Our voice is the only God-made instrument we have, and EVERYBODY has one of their very own. As they say, If you don't use it you lose it."

Diane

M
Matthew2323

I just came across this lady's music the other day: [url=http://www.abigailmiller.com/]Abigail Miller[/url]

The web page describes her music: Abigail Miller's music is a blend of peaceful original songs and old-fashioned hymns, accompanied by an array of beautiful instruments, such as the harp, cello, violin, viola, guitar, piano, and flute.


The songs are very pleasant. Samples are available on the web page.

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