Judge Roy Moore, one of Gods brave men.

bro Thingsabove

I don't see how you can say this is an Idol. An idol is primarily something that is worship and called upon.

an idol is something, anything that takes precedence over God in our lives. i remember when the whole drama about this started and in seeking our Lord on it, i learned something. if we want to have such monuments then that is well and good, but what good is it if the laws of God are not written on our hearts? People raised a big stink over this but i wonder how many of them had these laws written on their own hearts. to me that is the bigger issue. when we get upset over such, have we expended the same amount of resource in seeing God bring to fruition His glory in us? i'll tell you straight up, i don't care if they get rid of every monument, 10 commandments or whatever, if it is not written on our hearts it doesn't matter, God's not going to be looking for any monument but rather what is on our hearts.

Saying that we mandate a civic religion will begin the slide towards tyranny/theocracy is not necessarly the result.

what nation has had a theocracy which has ever been free from tyranny? although democracy itself is going to fail a proper theocracy without tyranny will only come during the 1000 yr reign of Christ.

Not acknowleding God, removing him and themention of him from public life is your road to tyranny. I respectfully say you have it backwards.

This is true also, the fact is that any sort of government on this side will ultimately fail, theocracy or not (save for the one Christ will establish) God is the only sure governer who can't be bribed or otherwise be moved to do anything than what is right.

haven't watched the video, is it on youtube or can you get me a wmv of it?

like i said bro, my thing is that if the laws aren't on our hearts, it really makes no difference if we build the biggest baddest/best monument ever. without some sort of display of these things in our lives, no lives can be touched.

Thingsabove,

Roy Moore is an incredible man of God. We need to stand up to the liberals trying to change every law around to fit thier Theology i.e. Abortion, gay marriage, no christian monumnents. Well, to change all of our countries displays of our Christian heritage, then we will have to change most of the monuments in Washington. Our country was founded upon hard working Christian men, God blessed us because of our hard work, and our dedication to his word.

While I am glad that judge Moore wanted to do what he did, the judge is acting as a fool. While I disagree with the courts ultimate decision to keep the Ten Commandments from being displayed as a sort of memorial in the court house, the judge should learn to submit to those over him in the Lord, namely, the state of Alabama.

Nowhere is it said that the judge, in order to uphold what he viewed as his duty to do, must erect a large stone monument of the Ten Commandments to do such. Once the higher courts ruled on this matter, he should have conformed to the higher courts decision, otherwise, legally he is obligated to. One might argue, "Better to obey God than man!" But where do the Scriptures say that in order to obey God in this matter, that the judge had to erect a huge stone monument dedicated to the Ten Commandments?

Roy Moore was not breaking the law. There is no law about forbidding having the 10 commandments displayed, that is why he refused to take them down.

There is so many hypocrites in our government, they might as well knock down the capital, supreme court building etc. because they all have christian imagry on it.

We need to stop letting the liberals take over the country and try to rewrite laws.

Why is it that nobody has a problem with christian imagry, until aboriton is legalized, gay marriage is pushing forth in our courts and our property is taken from us for no reason.

Our law of the land is the constitution, that is what we need to obey, and our government.

We need to stop letting our government take control of our daily lives, or soon, they will have complete control over our society.

one last question: Do you think that our forefathers will let these new laws such as abortion, gay marriage and the seizing of private citizens property, NO, they would most likely start a revolution.

How far is too far with taking of our morals.

I agree that it was ok for Moore to do what he did, but a higher court interpreted the law so as to say he was not right in doing what he did. And for him to persist as he did even after that ruling was wrong.

Also, a thought: Why does Christ gain by displaying the Ten Commandments at a court house? Remember, we are not under the Old Covenant, but under a New Covenant.

bro thingsabove
thanks for the links, i'll check them out asap.

bro Boomatt

Roy Moore is an incredible man of God. We need to stand up to the liberals trying to change every law around to fit thier Theology i.e. Abortion, gay marriage, no christian monumnents.

it's no accident you said that the liberals are the ones who need standing up to but nonetheless it is in error. the enemy is the one at work in the background using republican and democrat alike to his own end. now if we look at the issue as a liberal/conservative issue, we lose sight of God's perspective (which is the only one which matters) and when we do, we're in deep trouble. see if we fight this on a superficial level we will always fight and never win. by the way i'm neither republican or democrat, both sometimes claim God as on their side, God is on His own side. i'm not conservative or liberal coz God is neither, HE is HOly. we would do well to get on His side and become HOly.

Well, to change all of our countries displays of our Christian heritage, then we will have to change most of the monuments in Washington.

then let them be changed. if the laws of God are not onour hearts, they do us no good if they are written everywhere else. look at what became of Israel even though they did everything by the book God said these people honour me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me.

Our country was founded upon hard working Christian men, God blessed us because of our hard work, and our dedication to his word.

God establishes and casts down nations per His will. i look at all the very wealthy heathen nations of old which were more powerful and wealthy than our own such as Rome, Alexander's Greece etc, all heathen empires with no idea who God was. How come they enjoyed all that? God gives and takes as He pleases as He is no respecter of persons. God does not necesarily bless in response to hard work, sometimes we receive things which were simply don't deserve like salvation. God does all things to glorify Himself.

bro Matt

Roy Moore was not breaking the law. There is no law about forbidding having the 10 commandments displayed, that is why he refused to take them down.

Neither is there a law in scrpiture or otherwise requiring such displays.

There is so many hypocrites in our government, they might as well knock down the capital, supreme court building etc. because they all have christian imagry on it.

Christian immagery like what? Much of the Architecture in government builtings is of Greco-Roman influence, both were pagan empires...i don't think it a good thing for a so-called Christian nation to have such celebrations of heathen empires so prominantly displayed...When did Christians start having such immagery? where was it when the original apostles were here? it was nowhere to be found! it came about centures later due to the influence of pagans in the Roman empire and beyond. What do we need images for if the early Church didn't need them? If we have come to a place where we need images of any kind to bolster/declare our faith then God help us because we are lost! We have lost all wonder of Him. Don't the heavens display His handiwork for us anymore? Are His invisible attributes not displayed in the things which we see that He has made in creation?

We need to stop letting the liberals take over the country and try to rewrite laws.

Satan has already seen to that by using liberal and conservative alike over the years hence you have members of both parties doing all manner of shady things.

Why is it that nobody has a problem with christian imagry, until aboriton is legalized, gay marriage is pushing forth in our courts and our property is taken from us for no reason.

not sure what you're trying to get across in the first part about Christian immagery. On the issue of property, the word says the earth is Yaweh's in the fulness thereof so we don't own anything, we're stewards. If we find ourselves stroing up treasures here, then we will be disappointed so let us take Christ's advice and store up riches in heaven. if we lose eveything here, it is not because God wasn't looking...

one last question: Do you think that our forefathers will let these new laws such as abortion, gay marriage and the seizing of private citizens property, NO, they would most likely start a revolution.

i don't know and it doesn't matter because they are not here to act.at any rate the founding father had their own demons they were dealing with, many had slaves and that continued on throughout many presidencies along with the extermination/marginalization of the American indian.

How far is too far with taking of our morals.

When we come to the point where we realize that it's not about us we'll be in good shape. we're not there yet. it's all about God's plan for His glorification through His Church and until we see it from that lofty perspective as opposed to liberal/conservative or democrat/republican (both of which are superficial) we will keep spinning our wheels and get nowhere.

God help us indeed!

Hi everyone. There are some points here where I think we are all failing to connect with each other on, perhaps for different reasons.

I think we all agree that a real [i]Christian Theocracy[/i] is not desireable [b]as a matter of earthly politics[/b]. Yet, doesn't one already exist? Jesus said

[b][color=660033]The [u]kingdom of God[/u] cometh not with observation...[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033] ...for, behold, the [u]kingdom of God[/u] is within you.[/color][/b]

God is, right now, ruling from the throne of the hearts and minds of men and women all over the globe. Hallelujah!

BUT,

what amazes me is that we could [b]seem[/b] to be against taking [u]every opportunity[/u] to make use of [b]every honorable and worthy means[/b] of extending the influence, power, glory and honour of God and our Savior in all the earth?? incuding political means.

I want to ask us, what first principles did our Lord instruct us on when He taught us to pray? Did He not say

[b][color=660033]Thy kingdom come.[/color][/b][b]

[color=660033]Thy will be done [/color][/b][b]

[color=660033]in earth,[/color][/b][b]

[color=660033]as it is in heaven.[/color][/b]

If then you say to me that politics is not an honorable and worthy means of advancing His kingdom then I shall ask you, why:

is it becuse we have abandoned it to the sewer of this life? And are we now surprised then, that, [i]it stinketh[/i]?

I dont understand this! Did not the Apostle ask them of Corinth

[b][color=000000] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]Know ye not that we shall judge angels?[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]how much more things that pertain to this life?[/color][/b]

I do not think I take these verses out of context, for I appeal to their principle: can we not then judge things which pertain to this life?

The scripture says that rulers are [i]the ministers of God[/i]. What then, are the ungodly and heathen more preferrable in this office than the elect of God, whom He has choosen?

If you then say to me that our Governemnt in the US is not from above then I will recall to you the confession of John the Baptist when he said

A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

If then, we who are called by His name, have, in the providence of God been given so blessed and gracious freedoms and privileges of worship and expression and self-governance as a people whose members are yet upon the earth, what can be said of us if we neglect them? Are we to abandon them because of what we fear might happen if we were to fully use them? Is that our profession of faith, that we feared to do what was right becuase of what might be done wrong? Ohh brothers and sisters, I think of the words of the steward that said

[b][color=000000]...Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.[/color][/b]

Lastly brothers and sisters, I would like to share with you some words that I found attributed to Charles Finney. I think there are some things here for us to consider:

...God cannot sustain this free and blessed country, which we love and pray for, unless the Church will take right ground. Politics are part of a religion in such a country as this, and Christians must do their duty to the country as a part of their duty to God. . . . [God] will bless or curse this nation, according to the course [Christians] take [in politics].

I too share concerns about the dangers of this also. I just can not see neglecting, as Finney puts it, 'our duty', becuase of them.

What do you say beloved? Is such within our bounds?

Brothers, I found an article at wallbuilders.com that I'd like to recommend to you on the issue of slavery and America's history. The article takes a look at what the scriptures say about slavery and also has alot of qoutes and facts of history from the founders.

I think the article will be usefull in giving us all a clearer perspective on this.

The article is [i]The Bible, Slavery, and America's Founders[/i] by by Stephen McDowell

It's available under [i]Issues and Articles[/i].

I was surprised to learn for instance, that according to this article

[b]Many of the founders started and served in anti-slavery societies[/b].

I don't remember hearing anything like that before.

Christopher

KJ wrote:

Also, a thought: Why does Christ gain by displaying the Ten Commandments at a court house? Remember, we are not under the Old Covenant, but under a New Covenant.

A question for you Jimmy: what happens when references to God are striken from the public square? from the market place? are not allowed to be mentioned?

Another question for you Jimmy: since when are Christian people free to violate the commandments of stealing, coveting, chasity, honoring God? etc.?

ginnyrose

Yesterday when I read this thread, it made me ponder a lot..even kept me awake last night! I sensed that both John and Ironman had valid points. But can there be a marriage of the two?

There is one point that has not been mentioned and I would like to share this for your consideration.

What is the value of symbols? What do they to us? Are they to please God? Are they to help us?

Consider: the first symbol we read about in the Bible is the lamb that God slew to cover Adam & Eve's sin.(You all understand this, do you not? I do not have to go into detail why it was merely a shadow of things to come?) Later the symbol or ritual of circumcision was given as a token of God's covenant with Abraham. In the law there were others: like the fringe on the hem of a person's robe; or the tabernacle itself:its structure and rituals. Fast forward to the NT: you have baptism, the communion ritual, the washing of feet, annointing with oil, the veiling of the woman's head when praying or prophecing, men lifting holy hands....

Now look at all these rituals: did they have redemptive value? Did observing these rituals ever make a man/woman holy before God? Why did God ask his people to observe them? Is it not because we are finite beings who need steady reminders of our limitations and that we serve an infinite being? Is not the act of our willingness to observe these rituals a demonstration to God - and the spirit world - that we are willing to be obedient to Him even in things that make little or no sense to us?

Now about the symbols of Christianity in the public square: does it not edyify us all to see these displayed?

Persecution: It is true the church has thrived under some persecution. Intense persecution has obliterated Christianity from some parts of the globe. Persecution is hard on a body, physically, spiritually, and mentally. Paul tells us we need to pray for our governments so we can lead a quiet and peaceful life. Jesus tells us in his prayer "Lead us not into temptation." If you are a parent who would have his children removed from the home because of your faith, how easy would that be? It has happened in the past and will likely happen again. Anabaptist history records an incident in which a child was given to an approved family after its parents were martyred and neither it or any of its descendents never did embrace Anabaptism.

These are my thoughts on this issue and just thought I would share them for your consideration. I stand to be corrected if I am in error.

ginnyrose

PS: John, perhaps someday I will take the time to checkout the video you mentioned...many times I have problems viewing something like that online.

A question for you Jimmy: what happens when references to God are striken from the public square? from the market place? are not allowed to be mentioned?

Actually, I don't know. But what bothers me is that Christians are being more proactive about forcing the court system to back up public displays of their faith, than simply displaying their faith in their day to day activities and conversations.

However, the striking of references to God from the public square is merely the symptom of a deeper problem. That being that we live in a society living in darkness, whose ultimate loyalty is to the god of this age.

We can talk nonsense about this country being founded upon Christian principles and what not, and we can talk nonsense about this having been a Christian nation, and we can fight carnal battles against flesh and blood by trying to setup monuments of the Ten Commandments in courthouses.

But the truth of the matter is this country was by in large (there are some exceptions) actually founded by greedy men whose greed went so far as to make God a tool and justification for rebelling against England. And once the God of deism was no longer needed to justify this rebellion, this God was forsaken.

For the law is a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ.They who are still under the old covenant. The law helps them to see more fully their sin. Also Thy law is perfect converting the soul!You'll find that in proverbs.
Also the Law is etched in the supreme court building, moses with the two tablets. On and on I could go. Watch the dvd it will greatly help.

And all I can say is so?

Hi everyone.

KingJimmy, these last few lines here are some pretty strong statements to make. I think we should be carefull about this... you wrote

But the truth of the matter is this country was by in large (there are some exceptions) actually founded by greedy men whose greed went so far as to make God a tool and justification for rebelling against England. And once the God of deism was no longer needed to justify this rebellion, this God was forsaken.

Brother, are you sure this was the case?

As concerning greed, didn't those who led the revolution risk a great deal, including thier lives and the lives of their families?

As concerning the claim of deisim, I found this qoute about the [b]55[/b] delegates at the constitutional convention

[b][color=999900]The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--[u]this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith[/u].[/color][/b]

the article goes on to say

[b][color=999900]This is a revealing tally. It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. [u]Indeed, 70% were Calvinists[/u] (the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity. [/color][/b]

The full article is here

[url=http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5243]The Faith of our Fathers[/url]

One observation here: I don't see how anyone could reconcile being a calvinist and a deist at the same time?

Brother these are some strong words about the founders. I copied a list of the names of the men who were a part of the constitutional convention and am posting them here. I think it may be helpfull for us to remember that these were real men, with real histories and lives. I think too, especially in the case of those who could have been true brethren, that it would be pleasing in the sight of God to treat their memory with respect.

[url=http://www.constitutioncenter.org/explore/FoundingFathers/index.shtml]Constitution Center.org[/url]

[b]Connecticut[/b]
Oliver Ellsworth
William Samuel Johnson
Roger Sherman

[b]Delaware[/b]
Richard Bassett
Gunning Bedford Jr.
Jacob Broom
John Dickinson
George Read

[b]Georgia[/b]
Abraham Baldwin
William Few
William Houstoun
William Leigh Pierce

[b]Maryland[/b]
Daniel Carroll
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer
Luther Martin
James McHenry
John Francis Mercer

[b]Massachusetts[/b]
Elbridge Gerry
Nathaniel Gorham
Rufus King
Caleb Strong

[b]Virginia[/b]
John Blair
James Madison
George Mason
James McClurg
Edmund Randolph
George Washington
George Wythe

[b]New Hampshire[/b]
Nicholas Gilman
John Langdon

[b]New Jersey[/b]
David Brearley
Jonathan Dayton
William Churchill Houston
William Livingston
William Paterson

[b]New York[/b]
Alexander Hamilton
John Lansing Jr.
Robert Yates

[b]North Carolina[/b]
William Blount
William Richardson Davie
Alexander Martin
Richard Dobbs Spaight Sr.
Hugh Williamson

[b]South Carolina[/b]
Pierce Butler
Charles Pinckney
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
John Rutledge

[b]Pennsylvania[/b]
George Clymer
Thomas Fitzsimons
Benjamin Franklin
Jared Ingersoll
Thomas Mifflin
Gouverneur Morris
Robert Morris
James Wilson

Chris

sis ginnyrose
i guess my feeling is that unless there is an expression of God in our lives there is no point in putting up any symbol because it then becomes hypocracy.

i pray that God manifest Himself in our own lives in an undeniable way to His glory. AMEN.

what bothers me is that Christians are being more proactive about forcing the court system to back up public displays of their faith, than simply displaying their faith in their day to day activities and conversations

Why must we assume there is a disparity between those who want to see the Ten Commandments displayed and respected publicly, and those who live it privately and quietly. Perhaps Judge Moore is not the political hypocrite, but the honest believer. It seems to me that the people, like this judge, who are willing to take public heat for their beliefs, are just the type of people who do indeed practice privately what they preach…or rule.

the striking of references to God from the public square is merely the symptom of a deeper problem.

If this is true then inversely a Judge who is defending a reference to God in the public square is evidence of a deeper solution. :-)

Seriously, King Jimmy and Ironman, aren't you talking out of both sides of your mouths bros? On one hand you criticize public displays of the Ten Commandments, yet on the other hand you preach Godliness... It seems to me that the two could be wings on the same healthy bird. If we are asking for inward adherence to righteousness (Whether it is measured by the Ten Commandments, or by Christ-likeness), then we should not be surprised when this inward reality interacts outwardly with the world.... including the government!

Or perhaps we are not completely free of the influence of Gnosticism... ;-)

It’s not that publicly affirming the Ten Commandments will cause mankind to uphold them privately. It’s that upholding them privately might just lead to publicly affirming them before mankind.

Why must we mistrust that?

MC

bro Mike

Why must we assume there is a disparity between those who want to see the Ten Commandments displayed and respected publicly, and those who live it privately and quietly. Perhaps Judge Moore is not the political hypocrite, but the honest believer. It seems to me that the people, like this judge, who are willing to take public heat for their beliefs, are just the type of people who do indeed practice privately what they preach…or rule.

you bro Mike i never really considered that side of the whole picture. Sis ginnyrose was trying to point out in a previous post, as you are in this one that the 2 sides of this issue could be put together and it seems our Lord is working to that end here. i acknowledge my view of this was incomplete but in light of the recent posts i have had to look at it all afresh and see what our Lord is trying to show me and us all here. as such i stand corrected and built up a bit more in Christ! of course not everyone who jumps up and down about such displays is sold out but then again perhaps standing up for such is a sign of a bigger solution, if i may paraphrase bro Compton.

Seriously, King Jimmy and Ironman, aren't you talking out of both sides of your mouths bros? On one hand you criticize public displays of the Ten Commandments, yet on the other hand you preach Godliness... It seems to me that the two could be wings on the same healthy bird. If we are asking for inward adherence to righteousness (Whether it is measured by the Ten Commandments, or by Christ-likeness), then we should not be surprised when this inward reality interacts outwardly with the world.... including the government!

you know bro Mike i guess i was talking out of both sides of my mouth, or maybe speaking in part coz i see through a glass darkly. my view of all this has cleared up some! i feel though that such displays without the backing of the right conduct in our lives are a farce so i guess part of my burden was that we were sure we were right with God before going after this. i'm not against displays, i just feel without our lives being right with God, they don't help any. then also like you said bro Mike, the 2 should be wings on the same bird, the inward expression of God's hand on us and the outward expression of it in even the government. i guess that would be the effect after all!i'm unsure that scripture says we should have such engravings and things (someone help me out there) but i suppose if our conduct is Godly it will have an effect on things.

Or perhaps we are not completely free of the influence of Gnosticism...

lets shake that stuff off...

It’s not that publicly affirming the Ten Commandments will cause mankind to uphold them privately. It’s that upholding them privately might just lead to publicly affirming them before mankind.

if we do acknoledge God in private the day will come when we have to do it out in public, even unto death. Perhaps this is a small step toward even greater persecutions which we must yet endure?

Why must we mistrust that?

like i said before, my concern is that if our lives are not right with God, then all this other stuff means nothing. have to check out the vid now.

bro John
i didn't get to see the video, i'd have to buy it but i read the article you posted at the first. indeed we are at a time where God is being, or should i say has been moved out of the picture and we are suffering the repurcussions. At this point there is no reversing thatt short of God's judgement but we ought to stand our ground as He moves us to. There will be some who will bear that burden and others whom God will lead to do other things, at the end of the day, the same Spirit is in all and works in all to the glory of God therefore we ought to recognize this and lift one another up in prayer even if our responsibilities in God seem miles apart because the scope of the plan of God ti display His manfild wisdom is bigger than you and i.

God bless you bro and thanks for bringing to the fore another way in which God is working.

Brother, are you sure this was the case?

I only have a short second to post (sorry for the long delay)... but yes, I believe this country was largely founded on anything but Christian virtues.

The Declaration of Independence says that God in natural law has given all man the freedom to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; and that because of these things which England was robbing the colonies of, they declared that the people had the inalienable right to throw off from themselves oppressive governments such as the King's.

This is something rooted in deism, not the Scriptures. God was merely a tool used by the founders as an excuse to give England the middle finger. The aristocracy that existed did not care for England cutting into their profits. Mammon was what was being served, not God. God was merely a tool employed, and, since discarded.

As concerning greed, didn't those who led the revolution risk a great deal, including thier lives and the lives of their families?

Oh no doubt the actions they did were heroic in nature, and rather risky. It's amazing though what men will do to serve Mammon though. Men have given their very lives in pursuit of it.

(Side note: Funny thing is though, so far as I understand it, we pay by far more taxes today than they ever did.)

Amen Ironman,

but i suppose if our conduct is Godly it will have an effect on things.

This is the way I have grown up seeing things...that inward beliefs effect the outward world. Not all Christian political rulers are in the tradition of Constantine! ;-)

God was merely a tool used by the founders as an excuse to give England the middle finger. The aristocracy that existed did not care for England cutting into their profits. Mammon was what was being served, not God. God was merely a tool employed, and, since discarded.

Certainly there were economic interests that helped fuel the revolutionary war (which may or may not be characterized as shady 'mammon')...but the US was formed over a much greater period of time then then just the war years. The longer historical record effortlessly dispels such a broad stroke that says all colonialist were deists and opportunistic merchants.

Perhaps at the core there were profiteers...yet there were also those whose ideals, and yes ambitions, were not mere money but many other human and spiritual concerns under the big tent of "freedom". Maybe these men were idealistic and naive, but we cannot deny their existence and influence.

So, while recognizing that it is much too simple to believe this nation was founded as a "Christian" nation out of a pious love for God...it is also hasty to say that all 'religous zeal' in the colonies was only perfumed pretense masking darker political motives. Perhaps one way to see the fabric of the American flag is as a polyestor of ideals and ambitions.:-)

As one small evidence of Christian fiber in the American fabric, I recently came across this Sameul Willard sermon from Boston dated 1694. It is titled, appropriately enough for this thread, [i]The Character of a Good Ruler.

For since the fall of man hath robbed man of that (Adam’s) perfection, and filled his heart with perverse and rebellous principles, tending to the subversion of all and reducing the world to a chaos; necessity requires, and the political happiness of a people is concerned with the establishment of civil government.

But this notwithstanding, mens’ sins may put a curse into their blessings, and render their remedy not better but worse then the malady. Government is to prevent and cure the disorders that are apt to break forth among the societies of men, to promote the civil peace and prosperity of such a people, as well as to suppress impiety and nourish religion.

It is of the highest consequence that civil rulers should be just men and such as rule in the fear of God…

…and accordingly he is a student in the law of God, and meditates in it day and night; making it the rule into which he ultimately resolves all that he doth in place. We find that in the old law, the king was to write a copy with his own hand, and to make use of it at all times: Duet 17. 18,19.

If he hath anything to do with the making of laws he will consult a good conscience, and what may be pleasing to God, and will be far from framing mischief by a law. And if he be to execute any laws of man he will not dare give a judgement for such as one as directly crosseth the command of God, but counts ipso facto void, and his conscience aquitted of his oath.[/i]

Here is a simple testament to the political ideals of at least one colonial clergymen in the years building up to the Revolutionary war. So even though we readily admit there were carnal and worldly men involved in the colonies and early government, we can not say that all were so, nor can we faithfully dismiss all evidence of authentic Christian influence woven into our national heritage.

MC

(Exerpts taken from Sinners in the hands of an Angry God and other Puritan Sermons. Dover Press :-))

Hypocrisy is lie, and slavery is sin....is this our national foundation? While modern day nationalistic "christians" hyperventilate on our "christian" roots

Without a doubt the brutal treatment of African and Native American peoples is the source of this nation's greatest shame. The thought of a Christian European family sitting at their dinner table in a house built on Indian burial mounds, while thanking God for a bounty wrought by slave labor could very well cause a decent human being to want to vomit.

I don't know if I'm hyperventilating about our Christian roots ;-) or not...lately I find myself suffocating... wanting to appease the unappeasable.

Again I wonder if we are talking in circles on these issues. Regardless...how do we move forward? Was not the wrath of God poured out on this nation in 1861? If 600,000 deaths and the destruction of the south are meaningless then how can a verbal apology make a difference?

I remember a church service a few years ago where a white lady stood up and apologized to a native American woman for the treatment from the US government 150 years ago. Honestly it seemed cheap and insulting...the Native American woman did her social duty and embraced the white woman, who in turn recieved absolution for her personal feelings of guilt without actually undoing the great evil.... I do not believe anything spiritual or social was accomplished by the public act.

Personally I am willing to talk about these things. Yet I am naturally wary of simplistic intepretations for multi-century historical events. Slavery was an institution...albiet an evil one that persisted into modern times in this nation. Even those Christians who knew it was cruel and evil, were conditioned to accept it as vital...much like abortion today. For instance George Whitefield owned slaves even as he preached repentance...can we say that men like him were only hypocrites? (A troubling question; Perhaps Whitefield was the prototype for the American Evangelical...easily mixing the right with the wrong, wanting the best of two kingdoms.)

Thank God brother that the great injustice was literally burned from our shores ...though still it's social, economic, and spiritual effects are profoundly felt. So how do we move forward? God willing we can.

MC

bro Mike

This is the way I have grown up seeing things...that inward beliefs effect the outward world. Not all Christian political rulers are in the tradition of Constantine!

bless God for that! thank you Father, SOn and Holy Ghost for drawing a remnant of these leaders unto yourselves. AMEN.

indeed it follows that inward beliefs (like you said) affect the world, DUH!!! i thank God though that He quickened me to that!

bro John

Ironman I wish thet many on SI would realize the truth of what you said here. I see many resist people like Roy moore or open air preachers etc. and outright denounce them as antichrist or nothing but mammon seekers.

i pray the same thing bro because this thing is bigger than you and i but it has to do with the most lofty purpose, indeed the sole purpose for all things, the glory of God. i was one who opposed Roy Moore's stance until our Lord removed those scales from my eyes via this thread. so even though my burden is more for the inward witness of God working in one's life and bro Moore looks at a more outward display, the 2 really are 1 and God is at work in both. it's like when Paul said about the body that one part can't say i don't need an eye or something coz i'm an ear. now i feel that our nations is headed into the teeth of God's judgement but the work bro Moore and others are doing is yet necessary. it may not yeild the exact desired effect but whatever God has sanctioned will achieve whatever He has purposed.

It's this constant fighting with one another on these things that is one of many hindrances to revival.

indeed bro, but i know one thing which will get us on the same page in a hot new york minute...judgment. it will bring about repentance which will usher in revival.

I'm not talking about discussing and working things out on issue's that's fine and necessary. And to a degree it has succeeded on this particular thread.

bro John indeed i can attest to the success of God getting us on the same page! i thank Him i'm not concerned about my ego i'm just in it for His glory and i can say this in front of y'all with no shame coz i see it's about Him. if we can start to see what truth, we would get past so much of this bickering much faster and get to the work.

bless God though that His plan is marching on either way...

God bless you bro John

George Whitefield owned slaves?

Well I read he did according to church historian Mark Noll in his book[url=http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Evangelicalism-Edwards-Whitefield-Wesleys/dp/0830825819/sr=1-6/qid=1159823319/ref=sr_1_6/103-6582526-8001432?ie=UTF8&s=books]The Rise of Evangelicism[/url]

My point about slavery was not to excuse it's sinfulness...but to bring up the topic of social conditioning..how socially polite citizens can tolerate unspeakable evil. Wer'e doing it right now! I know we hate the thought but how else can we explain the tolerance for injustice that goes on daily in our current lives. Maybe it's a coping mechanism. Maybe our fragile minds cannot handle the reality of the world we live in.

With information and media technology filling sewer pipes of suffering from around the globe, our minds are saturated with shame. How can the average joe cope with the genocide in Dafur, the gang war-fronts in US ghettos, the scandal of immigration, and the millions of babies murdered yearly? Why aren't Christians quitting their jobs and heading off to these territories and solving these awful problems? And when a few attempt to do so, why does the church look at them like they are crazy? Peacemakers in Iraq? Abortion protestors? Communal Christians? They all look like lunatics...even to the average Christian.

So my point isn't that slavery isn't evil. (For heavens sake!) It's to explain how George Whitefield could own slaves and still preach Christ. He wasn't unique. It's awful but indifference and acceptance happens...it is happening with you and I even as we speak...although 200 years from now future Christians may judge us more harshly.

If we could suddenly see perfectly, we would awaken from our Matrix dream to discover with horror that we are drowning in an ocean of shame my brother. You may swim for a hundred years and never reach the end or bottom of it. The more we look to climb out of it, the more we could choke on the bitter brine...maybe it's one reason why God limits our life spans...to put a cap on the buckets of sins we swallow daily.

My apologies to the Arminians and Pelagians who believe in their own perfection. The truth is that technology has only increased your wretched guilt. Unlike your holiness ancestors, sattelite technology makes you aware of evil from all over the planet like the genocide in Dafur... and yet you do nothing. You know all too well about human and labor rights violations in China and still covet cheap appliances at Walmart. You understand why we must enter into mid-east conflict and yet still slosh endless gallons of Gasoline into your auto without a thought. You learn from state of the art historical scholarship of your guilt about slavery and Nagasaki and feel nothing. You are a wretch...God only knows how Christ could save a wretch like you and I.

When you think about it, the greatest injustice ever wrought is the love of Christ for us...we claim we have repented but without Christ our inadequate sorrow and pitiful repentence would only be the crowning acheivement of a life of self-serving sin.

So, like Whitefield and Luther we have huge howling holes in our righteous boats...and like them we are Christians trying to stay afloat by our own efforts. They were born into the same ocean of shame you and I find ourselves in. Condemnation covers the whole planet like a flood...none of our moral high ground remains unsubmerged.

So maybe God is unleasing the fires of Islam on Christendom...or maybe he unleashed the fires of Christendom on Islam...I don't know for certain. The only thing I am certain of is that I am glad to be invited to enter into the only unsinkable boat ever made... the same great Ark that Whitefield, Luther, and Jackson entered into. All talk of shame and guilt must lead us to Christ...there is no human atonement satisfactory.

Does this excuse slavery? Hell no...but it does make it possible to discuss it productively without hurling pointless shame at one another. Any shame you could sprinkle on me just blends into my ocean and any atonement I could offer you brother to keep myself dry would be like a screen door trying to keep the flood waters out. :cry:

MC

Hi guys,

Though Whitefield owned slaves, I believe he loved them as equals in Christ, and I believe his slaves dearly loved him. I am by no means condoning slavery! God forbid we make the mistake of libeling this long-departed brother as a hypocritical slaveowner and insensitive to the equality of all men in the eyes of Jehovah God. I found this tidbit of info concerning Whitefield and slave-owning:

"Whitefield was one of the first preachers to send forth the message of salvation to black people wherever he went. At the close of one of his messages, he said these words to the blacks who were listening:

"I must not forget the poor negroes. No, I must not. Jesus Christ has died for them, as well as for othere...In Jesus Christ there is neither male nor female, bond (slave) or free; even you may be the children of God, if you believe in Jesus. If you believe you shall be saved."

On one occasion nearly fifty negroes came to the place where Whitefield was staying, to give thanks for what God had done for their souls! Many of the blacks would return to their work as slaves with their burdens lightened. They would think about the wonderful truths that Whitefield had told theme As they would toil in the fields they would repeat over and over again some phrase they had heard from the preacher’s lips. They would even begin to sing the words and add to them and repeat their song over and over. These songs became known as Negro Spirituals. George Whitefield has been called the first great friend of the American negro!"

Hi everyone. I would like to recommend to you all again an article titled [i]The Bible, Slavery, and America's Founders[/i].

The article starts off after an introduction by looking at the various things the Bible says about slavery and goes on to deal with America's founders and slavery. I found the content to be informative and it gave me a better understanding of some of the ways in which the Bible deals with the subject overall. I did not see an attempt to justify the brutal practices that were associated with slavery in America's history either.

That said, I'd like to share some qoutes from the article which I think we might find surprising:

[b]"The overwhelming majority of early Americans and most of America's leaders [u]did not[/u] own slaves."[/b]

and that John Jay, [u]the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court[/u] and [b]President of the Continental Congress[/b], was President of an anti-slavery society in New York.

[b]"John Quincy Adams, ...worked tirelessly for years to end slavery.."[/b]

[b]"Most of the men who gave us the Declaration and the Constitution wanted to see slavery abolished."[/b]

[b]"George Washington wrote in a letter to Robert Morris: I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery]"[/b].

[b]"Charles Carroll, Signer of Declaration from Maryland, wrote: Why keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil."[/b]

[b]"Benjamin Rush, Signer from Pennsylvania, stated: Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity"[/b]

[b]"Father of American education, and contributor to the ideas in the Constitution, Noah Webster wrote: Justice and humanity require it [the end of slavery] — Christianity commands it."[/b]

[b]"Quotes from John Adams reveal his strong anti-slavery views: Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States. . . . I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in . . . abhorrence."[/b]

[b]"...Benjamin Franklin served as President of the Pennsylvania Society of Promoting the Abolition of Slavery..."[/b]

[b]"Thomas Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration included a strong denunciation of slavery, declaring [u][i]the king's perpetuation of the slave trade and his vetoing of colonial anti-slavery measures as one reason the colonists were declaring their independence[/u][/i]"[/b]

This last qoute brings me to something else which was alluded to earlier, that being the founders motive for declaring independence. In another article, titled [i]God: Missing in Action from American History[/i] it is stated that

[b]"Americans are taught that “taxation without representation” was the reason America separated from Great Britain; yet “taxation without representation” [u]was only reason number seventeen[/u] out of the [i]twenty-seven reasons[/i] given in the Declaration of Independence"[/b] and that among these were moral and religous reasons and it goes on to cite an example.

Back to the issue of slavery, the article further states

[b]"Prior to independence, anti-slavery measures by the colonists were thwarted by the British government."[/b]

and also that

[b]"Before independence, some states had tried to restrict slavery in different ways (e.g. Virginia had voted to end the slave trade in 1773), but the English government had not allowed it."[/b]

There is more and I hope that you all will be interested to read it.

[url=http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=94]The Bible, Slavery, and America's Founders[/url]

[url=http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=121]God: Missing in Action from American History[/url]

bro Chris
that was a most eye-opening article on slavery and how it pertained to the early years of America. most blacks don't know that side of it and i was one. in looking at the scriptural support for slavery in it's proper context and then comparing that with some of what was done makes me see this in a different light. really there are grounds for slavery and a way in which it is to be done rightly but clearly there have been some violations of that not only here but elsewhere and this continues in many places around the world unchecked. the civil was was judgment for that, not sure if God is done judging us for it, God knows. either way God's plan to glorify Himself marches on.AMEN.

Hi everyone.

that was a most eye-opening article on slavery

Was for me too. I appreciated for instance the Biblical distinctions that were brought out in terms of the different forms and or conditions of slavery that God permitted and how this was seen in view of the realities of life in our fallen world. There was much more in the article that I found helpfull and educational as well.

Peace be with you all in Messiah Jesus.

Thanks much Chris...interesting information brother.

(edit: I hadn't heard this before...

"Prior to independence, anti-slavery measures by the colonists were thwarted by the British government."

Dear MC...

You may be up on site at the moment but it is only happenstance to state this...

That ... I don't even have a word for it ... just chills, still.

Brother...