prophetic or opinion?

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

I tried to bring out this point in another thread but I don't think it was really picked up on. Perhaps I misunderstand the above verse so I am open to other's interpretations of it. I am no theologen(sp?).

If we attribute a move or work of God to not be of God or to be from Satan himself would that not be blaspheming the Holy Spirit? I am concerned that so often specific ministries, men and claimed revival movements are so certainly proclaimed to "not" be of God. I am not suggesting that they all are of God, but simply that I don't really know. I have certainly felt cautious in my own spirit at times and have avoided ministries because of it. I would not even think of boldly proclaiming to everyone that they are heretics though. What if I'm wrong? What if you are wrong? Would it not be better to take our concerns before God and pray that if it is not of God that he give wisdom to his people that they are not deceived? And even that he impart truth into those ministers also. The heart is wicked and decietful above all things. Who says come and follow me I preach a false gospel? And even in genuine outpourings and ministries the evil one will be at work there to to deceive who he can, to bring counterfits etc. But remember the parable of the wheat and the tares. The presence of tares does not make the wheat a counterfit.

Certainly God has his prophets, but lets make sure it's God and not our opinion dressed up as a spiritual discernment or prophetic at work.

This is not directed at anyone. I couldn't even usually tell you who posted what. It just seems to be such a common occurance, not only on this forum but in Christian circles all over. I just want to encourage people to think about what they say before they say it, examine it's source and to be mindful of the seriousness of what we speak.
HopeInChrist

Good post, HopeInChrist. It would be better to err on the side of caution, but as you say, without all knowledge, we don't want to commit blasphemy.

(that is what you said, right?) ;-)

yes, that is my point. :-P You could have saved me a lot of time.

Mar 3:30 because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Sounds logical but you need to look at the next verses as it deals with Jesus' own family coming to get him saying that He was beside himself, the illussion being that they may have sided somewhat with the scribes. So we see here the possibility of a deeper meaning, I leave that for you to discover. God Bless Bro. Daryl

Mar 3:31 And there come his mother and his brethren; and, standing without, they sent unto him, calling him.
Mar 3:32 And a multitude was sitting about him; and they say unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
Mar 3:33 And he answereth them, and saith, Who is my mother and my brethren?

A good post has been started here. No doubt there is still much to consider regarding this topic.

“…He has lost connection with the Head…” Col. 2:19

"Let us keep in step with the Spirit." Gal. 5:25

Diane

If we attribute a move or work of God to not be of God or to be from Satan himself would that not be blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Simply having poor discernment is not blasphemy of the Spirit. Think of the phrase, "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." What does it mean to blaspheme? To blaspheme something is to use malicously cruel and violent language towards something or somebody holy.

To do such takes a knowledge of what one is talking about. You can't unknowingly blaspheme something. To blaspheme something, specifically, the Holy Spirit, is to knowingly and malicously slander the Spirit of God.

In the context of the gospels, it is specifically used in reference to the Pharisees who recognized Jesus performing geniune acts of God, but knowingly attributing these acts of God to the devil. It wasn't simply them being spiritually blind or undiscerning, but, to actually know what the truth was, and to slander the activity of Christ as having its origins of the Devil.

HopeinChrist wrote:

If we attribute a move or work of God to not be of God or to be from Satan himself would that not be blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

These scribes knew that Jesus was the true Messiah but hated Him because He did come as they wanted, "The Concoring King",
The Messiah would be known by cirtain miracles setting him apart form other prophets. He would domiracles that know other prophet did or could do as the miracles in this verse, that is why the people were amazed, and said, "is not this the son of David?" in other words, "this would mean he is Massiah"

The Pharisees in Matt.12:24 tell the people that Jesus casts out demons by the “Prince of demons claiming that the spirit that is working through Him is not the Holy Spirit but a demonic spirit. In verse 29 Jesus states that this cannot be true because Satan would be divided and his kingdom would fall. Furthermore, No one is able to bind Satan and spoil his belongings unless he is stronger and not subservient. Jesus specifically states “He is driving the demons out with the Spirit God.”

The purpose of his miracles was to authenticate who He was. In Judaism there were 3 main messianic miracles that the rabbis understood would take place when the messiah would come, these would help the people recognize him (Deut.18:15; Isa. 35:3-6; Isa. 43:7-9).

[b]1:[/b] He would heal someone born blind from birth (Jn.9:1)

[b]2:[/b] He would heal a Jew who had leprosy (from the time of Moses’ law being completed, no Jew was ever healed of leprosy.

[b]3:[/b] He would heal or cast out a dumb demon. The Pharisees recognize this as a messianic miracle and ask if this can be the Son of David. At the time their were exorcisms performed within Judaism. For this to be accomplished the exorcist needed to actually communicate with the demon and ask questions. However in the case such as this where someone was affected by the demon to become dumb, this exorcism could not take place because there could be no communication made. According to Judaism only the Messiah could cast out a demon like this because it would be supernatural.

[b]John 2:23[/b] [color=990000]Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, [b]when they saw the miracles which he did.[/b][/color]

I would not even think of boldly proclaiming to everyone that they are heretics though.

What if I'm wrong? What if you are wrong?

Would it not be better to take our concerns before God and pray that if it is not of God that he give wisdom to his people that they are not deceived? And even that he impart truth into those ministers also.

This will only work if they love the truth.
[b]2Thes 2:10b-12[/b] [color=990000]because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[b]:11[/b] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[b]:12[/b] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/color]

even in genuine outpourings and ministries the evil one will be at work there to to deceive who he can, to bring counterfits etc.

Certainly God has his prophets, but lets make sure it's God and not our opinion dressed up as a spiritual discernment or prophetic at work.

In conclusion, God gives us knowlage, not oppinions.

If we attribute a move or work of God to not be of God or to be from Satan himself would that not be blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

To attribute some current activities to the Holy Spirit might also be 'defamation of character'. ;-)

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

If we attribute a move or work of God to not be of God or to be from Satan himself would that not be blaspheming the Holy Spirit? I am concerned that so often specific ministries, men and claimed revival movements are so certainly proclaimed to "not" be of God. I am not suggesting that they all are of God, but simply that I don't really know. I have certainly felt cautious in my own spirit at times and have avoided ministries because of it. I would not even think of boldly proclaiming to everyone that they are heretics though. What if I'm wrong? What if you are wrong? Would it not be better to take our concerns before God and pray that if it is not of God that he give wisdom to his people that they are not deceived?

To call a true prophet, "false" and a false prophet, "true" is deadly and destructive regardless of whether or not it leads to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. To reject the true prophet is to reject God's true message. To receive the false prophet is to receive the devil's false message. Both are indicators of deception. Jesus even said that the way we respond to His true men is the way the we respond to Him - "He that receiveth you receiveth Me, and he that receiveth Me receiveth Him that sent Me" (Matthew 10:40). He also said of the false prophets, "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets" (Luke 6:26). The same principle applies even to receiving false prophets - to receive the false prophet is to receive the devil and his lies.

So discernment is not an option but a necessity and one which we do not have within ourselves. Therefore Jesus told us in Matthew 7:7 how to receive discernment - "Ask, seek, knock" - this is the same thing that Proverbs 2:1-11 says and verse 11 says, "Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee."

Grace and peace
Olan

There are some "discirnment ministreys out there that are only against thing whith nothing to be for like http://www.atruechurch.info/home.html

Hi Logic,

I have actually contacted this ministry to no avail. I have left them at least two seperate messages for them to contact me.

These guys arent really a discernment ministry, they are a cult, read they're statement of beliefs. Its that bad, they believe that their is no trinity, and that they're 7 persons of godhead, weird.

Anyways, they're are some real good discernment ministries out they're, www.thebereancall.org, with Dave Hunt is a rather good one. He has had ties to Ravenhill, and Wilkerson.

God Bless

I believe that one of the Hebrew words which shows the Godhead to be plural, also means more than three.

Singular
Dual
Plural

I don't know that there is 'more than three' option.

But, that's what we ought to attempt, rather than to set statements against each other, as if one being right means the other is wrong. Wrong! They are both right....!

It wasn't really any one statement made by you as much as it was a compliling of comments made from the the begining of the post to the point where I posted.

The context of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit I believe is often taken out of context to the whole of scripture with all its surrounding passages. Not you specifically, but by most who generally try to grapple with this passage. A mishandling of it causes, and I've seen and dealt with first hand, some to be burdened down unnessarily with guilt, so I was hoping to get those who would follow this thread to look closer and consider the whole of scripture with all its circumstances and implications surrounding this "event" which occassioned Jesus' teaching here on the Holy Spirit and the authority with which God the Holy Spirit exercises Himself.

Dorcas,

Please go to that website before you start defending these people, you will be shocked.

Brethren
indeed the revelation speaks of the 7 SPirits of God and i for one do not think that to be allegorical in anywise. Now i don't think that these are 7 separate Spirits as they are 7 manifestations of the Spirit of God which rest upon Christ as stated here in Isaiah 11:

[b]1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove F64 with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.[/b]

it seems to me these 7 Spirits are:
the Spirit of God
the SPirit of Wisdom
the Spirit of Understanding
the Spirit of Counsel
the Spirit of Might
the SPirit of knowledge
the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord

The thing which keeps hitting home though is that God is tripartite, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Holy Ghost manifests the Power of God in the above ways through Christ and also through us since we are in Christ. To me this is not a big deal, the word says God is 3 persons and then speaks of the 7 Spirits of God. Some have said that is allegorical, i disagree. it seems that is a way to keep us from seeking God all the more to clarify what He has said or to seek Him with all diligence. The seeking of God in such ways causes us to be stretched beyond what we think we can bear and it makes plain to us we aint got nothing on God and whatever we think we know we have to set down and let Him school us...this would mean we have to admit we know nothing...i'm unsure many of us are willing to make such a declaration espcecially if one has been saved for a long time. also it's not easy for us to concede that our perception of who God is is wrong/incomplete hence we struggle with certain things He has done in the past and is doing now and will do later on.

much to consider.

as it pertains to the prophet (this is a dear thing for me!) the word says that if what the prophet says doesn't come to pass then we can write him off, to do so prematurely would be folly i think because to reject a true prophet (for whatever reason) is indeed to reject who sent Him but then also to accept a proven false prophet is folly also is to accept the one who sent him...let us tread carefully lest we reject the oracles of God and/or accept the words of the enemy.

The 7 spirits in Rev 3:1 are angels, or spirit-beings, as in Rev 1:4, Acts 8:29, Heb 1:7, 14

Revelation 1:4 (King James Version)

4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the [b]seven Spirits [/b]which are before his throne;

Acts 8:29 (King James Version)

29Then the [b]spirit[/b] said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

Hebrews 1:7 (King James Version)

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his[b] angels spirits[/b], and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:14 (King James Version)

14Are they not all[b] ministering spirits[/b], sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

According to the notations in my Bible, when comparing the same Greek word Pneuma/Spirit used in the above verses.

sis mamaluk
thanks for jumping in here, i took a look at the various references to "spirit" you mentioned and i disagree with you in that the 7 Spirits are spirit beings. the 7 Spirits of God in the revelation are Spirit with a capital "S" while the ministering spirits have a small one. the same is true as it pertains to evil spirits. it seems to me that the angels which are ministering spirits are on the same level in terms of hierarchy (if i can say that) while the Spirits of God are on a higher plane hence the capitalization of the S. it seems to me that when the "s" is Capitalized in Spirit, it has to do with God's own Holy Spirit eg when the Spirit of God descended of Christ.this seems to be the case in the O.T. also although in the O.T. however the references to Spirit are less but there are more references to spirit even when it pertains to the spirit of God coming upon someone, perhaps this has to do with the O.T. being the Father's dispensation?

either way it seems to me in the N.T. Spirit, refers to Holy Spirit, while spirit can be angel, demon or the spirit in a man.

perhaps i am mistaken but that is what i believe, i pray God clears this up for us to His glory. AMEN.

Ironman,

This is an area where I can get easily confused all the time. The Book of Rev. has brought forth so much disputes and disagreements that I have long dreaded participating in any of it's discussions anywhere. I thought hat notation might help but apparently it didn't ! :)

I have read various books and commentaries on this book, in the end, I'm still left with a big puzzle, because I found debates and disagreements only cause me confusion more than illumination. The harder I tried the more confused they ( different interpretations) get !

As with the capitalization of the word Spirit, just like other grammaitical usages in different translations, vary as well.

Edit: I re-read your post,brother Ironman, and I think it's clearer to me now. :)

Unless you are a Pharisee or like one and know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and know that He will not use His power, unless the Father tells Him, that is by the Holy Spirit doing what The Father tells Him, and then to proclaim that the Works Jesus does are of Satan, the sin of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be committed. There is a sin unto death, but this is not it. The sin unto death is, not to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, these are already dead and stay in their sin.
These Pharisees knew that Jesus could not do these works unless God was with Him. They in their hatred of the people listening to Jesus instead them, and saying the works Jesus did came from a complete different black heart of self, just like the black heart of Satan himself who would not divide his house by casting himself out, as they were accusing Jesus of doing.

In Christ: Phillip

sis Mamaluk

This is an area where I can get easily confused all the time. The Book of Rev. has brought forth so much disputes and disagreements that I have long dreaded participating in any of it's discussions anywhere. I thought hat notation might help but apparently it didn't ! :)

you're telling me!!! :-P indeed the Revelation is a very interesting book and the discussions thereof can get quite heated. it is good that this is not the case here, praise God! For me i look at it literally and seek God on it from that point, i find it much easier and i'm finding it is far more literal than most think...nonetheless God gives to each one a measure of faith and the Faith He has given me leads me to believe it literally and also to know that what occurs in the Spiritual realm will manifest on this side.

No problem, as many have said lately, it (eschatology) will all 'pan' out someday. I was once a Pre-mil, then Amil , but now, I'm definitely a Pan-mil.

i'm a pan tribber myself coz i know for sure it will all pan out...

Whenever I come to reading Revelation nowadays, I try to spot spiritual implication and read the surface of it rather than studying various schools of hermeneutics alongside with it. Very confusing!

indeed this is the bottom line, i believe our Lord had the Revelation written such that it would sift us, those whose view of God is more akin to what He in fact is and those whose view of God suits them more. God is all those things and more, after all He is God and can do and be as He pleases even if it goes against what we perceive Him to be.

what a mighty God we serve, and so manifold too.

bro Philip

Unless you are a Pharisee or like one and know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and know that He will not use His power, unless the Father tells Him, that is by the Holy Spirit doing what The Father tells Him, and then to proclaim that the Works Jesus does are of Satan, the sin of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be committed. There is a sin unto death, but this is not it. The sin unto death is, not to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, these are already dead and stay in their sin.

to blashpeme Holy Spirit would be to know Christ as the Son of God. i think one can know this and yet remain unsaved and upon committing the blasphemy, there can be no forgiveness...this is sin unto ultimate death coz you can't come back on that, but then so is dying without Christ as savior...

so much to learn...

That is not what scripture says. Is this not calling the Holy Spirit Satan? Calling Christ Satan can be forgiven but not the Holy Spirit. We can be forgiven for everything else, why is this sin not forgivable? The difficulty lieth in the latter part of the text, which denieth forgiveness to any who blaspheme the Holy Ghost. Upon this arise several questions. First, What the sin against the Holy Ghost here specified was. The scripture speaks by John of a sin unto death, for the forgiveness of which he would not have Christians pray. I should conclude that there is no such sin now to be committed, for we cannot have such means of conviction as the Pharisees had, Christ not being on the earth now working miracles; Christ was in the Flesh, and by the decree of the Pharisees' they entered into the Father's realm and by the Holy Spirit blasphemed, it was the same as the temple being His Fathers house, which would be destroyed and after the tribulation a new one would be brought down from Heaven. The Holy Spirit was to come at Pentecost and give men the power to know who This Christ really was, not just in the flesh, but in the spiritual realm, which is where we are in the Gospel now after the Cross. "Now we know Him after the flesh no more", 2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [Him] no more.

Doing this by the Law and religion and not by faith condemns these Pharisees' to non forgiveness. Upon the whole then, if any person hath been instructed in the things of God, as Israel and the Pharisees had been and hath made a profession of religion and godliness by the Law and afterwards falleth off from his profession, and becomes a bitter enemy to their profession of the Messiah, saying that those things are the effects of the devil in men, which his heart telleth him are the operations of the Holy Spirit, and be so hardy as to persecute and seek to destroy such a person as Christ for such profession: This is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This sin will not be forgiven in their dispensation or in this dispensation. If it were possible to see, hear and touch Jesus in the Flesh we could also commit this sin, if we said the miracles He does are of the Devil.

In Christ: Phillip

The scripture speaks by John of a sin unto death

I should conclude that there is no such sin now to be committed,

The two statements cannot go side by side especially in light of the principle of prayer John laid down some 40 plus years after the ressurrection of Christ.

I think we will have touched on this previously but the context of the 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit' passage is very revealing. Luke's gospel records this facet of the occasion

[color=0000ff]“But if I with [u]the finger of God[/u] cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” (Luke 11:20 KJVS)[/color]

This is an interesting phrase which is first used in the story of Moses/Aaron's contest with Pharaoh's magicians.

[color=0000ff]“Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is [u]the finger of God[/u]: and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.” (Ex 8:19 KJVS)[/color]

On this occasion the magicians were crystal clear in their judgment that what they were witnessing was incontrovertible evidence that God was at work. They had been able to counterfeit some of the earlier judgments but this was in a 'league of its own'. The magicians consequently solemnly warned Pharaoh what he was dealing with. There could be no doubt. However, Pharaoh 'hardened' his heart and would not 'hearken' to the witnesses. Pharaoh, consequently could have no possible excuse for rejecting this evidence of God, other than his own perverse determination to oppose the will of God.

The law too was written 'by the finger of God'. A well as this being a literal truth it may continue the theme of 'incontrovertibly'. There could be no doubt in its origin.

The Exodus context gives us some clues about the Gospel context. The miracles of Christ were incontrovertible proof that he was the Witness sent by God. In his ministry 'the finger of God' was plain for all to see. But some who saw it and knew its significance were still determined to have their own way. Consequently they 'maligned the Witness'. This is a fatal step. If you reject the means that God has chosen to speak to you how can you hear what God wants to say? To see, to recognize and to reject is a terminal condition. As long as this attitude remains God has nothing more that He can say; it is only the entrance of God's word that brings life.

To see, to recognize and to reject is a terminal condition. As long as this attitude remains God has nothing more that He can say; it is only the entrance of God's word that brings life.

What a perfect defention.

bro Ron

To see, to recognize and to reject is a terminal condition. As long as this attitude remains God has nothing more that He can say; it is only the entrance of God's word that brings life.

and this is how i have always understood this and this explains to me why there is no forgiveness for the enemy. he saw and knew God and was with Him in heaven yet he rebelled anyway therefore there is nothing further God could do but condemn him.

thanks bro Ron

Philologos,

A question...

In Ex 8:19, it says "he hearkened not." Would this not suggest that Pharoh did not believe? And if so, would this be considered "maligning the Witness"?

I wonder: Did the Pharisees believe that Jesus was the Son of God and blantantly reject Him? Or did they refuse to believe that Jesus was the Son of God because they did not want to accept Him?

Blake

In Ex 8:19, it says "he hearkened not." Would this not suggest that Pharoh did not believe? And if so, would this be considered "maligning the Witness"?

That 'refusal to glorify Him as God' is the litmus test. They would not give him his due and rejected his witness. There was an 'action reply' when God became flesh [color=0000ff]“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”
(John 1:9-11 KJVS)[/color]

bro Ron

philologos wrote:

In Ex 8:19, it says "he hearkened not." Would this not suggest that Pharoh did not believe? And if so, would this be considered "maligning the Witness"?

In one sense all unbelief is blasphemy. That may sound strong but to refuse to believe what God says is either to rebel consciously or judge Him a liar. The first steps of disobedience are recorded in Romans as
[color=0000f]“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” (Rom 1:18-21 NKJV)[/color]

That 'refusal to glorify Him as God' is the litmus test. They would not give him his due and rejected his witness. There was an 'action reply' when God became flesh [color=0000ff]“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”
(John 1:9-11 KJVS)[/color]

preach it bro!

spotted a typo in Ironman's quote of my earlier post..

There was an 'action reply' when God became flesh

bro Ron

should have read 'action replay'. I meant to say that their rejection of the witness was repeated in their rejection of The Witness'. Sorry.

i know what you meant! :-P

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.