OT Indwelling

Brothers,

I keep coming across Scriptures that make me lean towards the indwelling being possible before the cross.

2 Sam 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

Psalm 74:2b this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.

1 Peter 1:10b-11a the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time [b]the Spirit of Christ which was in them[/b] did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ

I understand the modern theology concerning the indwelling. I would like to know where in the Scriptures it it shown that the OT saints did not have the indwelling. Also are there any giants of the faith that discussed this thought?

After a quick look, Lewis Sperry Chafer said that the OT saints had the indwelling, but that He did not make the saints His abode, but came and left as He saw fit (that would fill in some blanks).

Looks like some others say he did abide in the OT saints.

Wow. And another; AW Pink: "It is a great mistake to say, as many have done, that the Holy Spirit was never in any believer before Pentecost"

This should open up a can of worms.

All comments welcome.

2Sa 23:2

Verse 2. "His word", That is; The following words, and consequently the other words and Psalms composed and uttered by me upon like occasions, are not to be looked upon as human inventions, but both the intent and the words of them are suggested by God's Spirit, the great Penman of The Word upon Israel and The Great Comforter and Writer also the Teacher in the Body of Christ; The old testament with and upon, The New Testament, in you, The Power an Sealer of our Salvation in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Why don't we see if we can create a fairly comprehensive list of such occurences and then see if we can discern a pattern. Here's are some to get us started.

[color=0000ff]“All the while my breath is in me, and [u]the spirit of God is in my nostrils[/u];” (Job 27:3 KJVS)

“And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, [u]a man in whom the Spirit of God is[/u]?” (Gen 41:38 KJVS)

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And [u]I have filled him with the spirit of God[/u], in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.” (Ex 31:1-5 KJVS)

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, [u]a man in whom is the spirit[/u], and lay thine hand upon him;” (Num 27:18 KJVS)

“The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.” (2Sam 23:2 KJVS)

“And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. And [u]the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.[/u] And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.” (Ezek 2:1-3 KJVS)

“O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that [u]the spirit of the holy gods is in thee[/u], and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.” (Dan 4:9 KJVS) & v18, 5:11

“Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them [u]by thy spirit in thy prophets[/u]: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands.” (Neh 9:30 KJVS)[/color]

No teaching of the person and work of the Spirit can ignore this kind of evidence. Are there others?

None of these are the Filling Pentecostal Holy Spirit that is in the Body of Christ forever. They are as the breath of God in Adam. Coming upon and with them and not the indwelling Holy Spirit "in you."

In Christ: Phillip

Letsgetbusy wrote:

I keep coming across Scriptures that make me lean towards the indwelling being possible before the cross.

I encourage you to continue to listen, and accept what the Holy Spirit is showing you.

Look for the evidence of God's grace in the lives of the OT saints. There is only one means by which God has ever changed men's hearts. There is only one means by which God has given His righteousness to the OT saints.

And the Holy One of Israel is the One who established righteousness in the OT saints.

Listen to what Scripture is speaking to you, there you will find the treasure that transforms the substance of what we hope for...

There will be others who look for definitions and the presence or absence of words in Scripture, and thus will say yea or nay to any particular subject. Yet it must always come down to the fact that all men find themselves in total depravity. And therefore it is God who must release them from that depravity.

Look for the evidence of God's promise in the OT saints lives, and not the word groups people depend on to write doctrines....

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff

None of these are the Filling Pentecostal Holy Spirit that is in the Body of Christ forever. They are as the breath of God in Adam. Coming upon and with them and not the indwelling Holy Spirit "in you."

One of the evidences we have to factor into our answer is that the disciples, including Judas, were commissioned to...[color=0000ff]“And as you go, preach, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” (Matt 10:7-8 NKJV)[/color] and that even though the disciples had known the Spirit a new experience awaited them...[color=0000ff]...“ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” (John 14:17 KJVS)[/color]

Somehow our understanding has to accommodate all this data. We cannot afford to omit the bits which don't fit our theory.

John (KJV)
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which [u][b]baptizeth[/u] (immerse)[/b] with the Holy Ghost.

Enliven? Water the seed.

Enliven? Water the seed.

Ron,

I tend to agree with Christinyou that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the N.T. saints in Chirist is "forever".

John 14:16
16And I will pray the Father, and He [b]shall [/b]give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you [b]for ever[/b], this precedes your quote on John 14:17.

The indwelling in the O.T. saints seemed to be temporal and work specific.

Enliven, water the seed.

I am still trying to put the pieces together.

The spirit part of us that died (went to sleep) when sin entered - because of the Fall . . .

When we believe on our Lord Jesus the seed is planted (to wake up our spirit) . . . the seed that Satan tries to snatch away.

After the seed is planted, through Jesus, the Holy Spirit Baptizes (waters - awakens, nourishes) . . .

But this is not possible until Jesus is Glorified, so in OT times the Spirit would be on dry ground (no seed), so while He could be in them, they could not be in Him (thier spirit is not yet awakened).

Somehow we are the Tree of Life (the tree that withers and dies if it does not bear fruit), planted beside (being sustained by) the River of Life (the Holy Spirit). Rev 22:1-2
--- No, Jesus would have to be the Tree of Life - we are only the branches - the branches bear the fruit - only through Him are we nourished - only through Him do we live - and only through the fruit (of the branches, having the seed within them) do others come to Christ!

I may have this all mixed up - please straighten me out if I do.

brethren
i wonder though, there is the account of saul who at one point prophesied all night and then later on was plagued by an evil spirit sent of God. perhaps the Spirit of God being in the O.T. saints is somehow different, we are sealed until the day of judgement maybe they were not...perhaps that is the reason for Christ going down to the lower parts of the earth?

anyway how does this knowledge benefit us exactly?

The indwelling in the O.T. saints seemed to be temporal and work specific.

[color=0000ff]“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1John 2:27 KJVS)[/color]

...where we find that the 'anointing' now 'abides' (Greek 'menO' = remains) and has become internal ie abideth in you.

I agree but the reason I quoted all those references was to draw attention to the fact that the purpose of the 'Spirit in' those OT believers was [u]always[/u] to enable them to 'do'. This experience of the Spirit was an experience which uniquely equipped men to do a specific task. The emphasis of the NT, while including the enabling to 'do' of the OT, is really the ability to 'be'.

[color=0000ff]“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall [u]be[/u] witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8 KJVS)[/color]

It is easy to misread this. We might have expected it to say 'you shall witness' which would have been the verb 'martureO'; the word is usually translated 'bear witness' in the KJV. But the verb in this phrase is 'eimi' which is the Greek verb 'to be' and is in the future tense, hence the KJV translation 'you shall [u]be[/u] witnesses'

When the OT enabling was needed on the 'inside' in creative activity the Spirit was on the 'inside' but as a Spirit who empowered and equipped the OT saint to do his job. The NT emphasis on the 'indwelling Spirit' is not empowerment of 'ministry' but 'empowerment of 'life'. This is why the phrase Spirit of Christ is a synonym for the phrase Holy Spirit. The life that was witnessed in the person of Christ is now communicated to the NT saint in the person of the Holy Spirit.

This is observable in the adjective that is so frequently used to describe the Spirit in the NT; the word 'Holy'. [b]The phrase 'Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost' is used 94 times in the NT[/b] (Matt 1:18,20; 3:11; 12:31-32; 28:19; Mark 1:8; 3:29; 12:36; 13:11; Luke 1:15,35,41,67; 2:25-26; 3:16,22; 4:1; 11:13; 12:10,12; John 1:33; 7:39; 14:26; 20:22; Acts 1:2,5,8,16; 2:4,33,38; 4:8,31; 5:3,32; 6:3,5; 7:51,55; 8:15,17-19; 9:17,31; 10:38,44-45,47; 11:15-16,24; 13:2,4,9,52; 15:8,28; 16:6; 19:2,6; 20:23,28; 21:11; 28:25; Rom 5:5; 9:1; 14:17; 15:13,16; 1Cor 2:13; 6:19; 12:3; 2Cor 6:6; 13:14; Eph 1:13; 4:30; 1Th 1:5-6; 4:8; 2Tim 1:14; Titus 3:5; Heb 2:4; 3:7; 6:4; 9:8; 10:15; 1Pet 1:12; 2Pet 1:21; 1John 5:7; Jude 1:20`)

[b]...but only 3 times in the OT[/b]
[color=0000ff]“Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy [u]holy spirit[/u] from me.

But they rebelled, and vexed his [u]holy Spirit[/u]: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his [u]holy Spirit[/u] within him?”
(Psa 51:11; Is 63:10-11 KJVS)[/color]

The ASV captures the sense of the Isaiah passage better: [color=0000ff]“But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? [u]where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them[/u]?” (Is 63:10-11 ASV)[/color]

In each occasion in the OT the phrase "Holy Spirit" is used in contrast to the 'unholy behaviour' of the OT saint.

Brother Ron wrote:

When the OT enabling was needed on the 'inside' in creative activity the Spirit was on the 'inside' but as a Spirit who empowered and equipped the OT saint to do his job. The NT emphasis on the 'indwelling Spirit' is not empowerment of 'ministry' but 'empowerment of 'life'. This is why the phrase Spirit of Christ is a synonym for the phrase Holy Spirit. The life that was witnessed in the person of Christ is now communicated to the NT saint in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Was the writer of Psalm 119 empowered only to write the word of God or live according to the righteousness that God worked in him?

In other words, can one write the word of God without first knowing the "life" that creates salvation for the individual?

In Christ
Jeff

In Psalm 119 we hear these words...

17 \tDeal bountifully with Your servant,
\tThat I may live and keep Your word.
18 \tOpen my eyes, that I may see
\tWondrous things from Your law.
19 \tI am a stranger in the earth;
\tDo not hide Your commandments from me.

Do you believe God answers this man's prayers?

24 \tYour testimonies also are my delight
\tAnd my counselors.
25 \tMy soul clings to the dust;
\tRevive me according to Your word.
26 \tI have declared my ways, and You answered me;
\tTeach me Your statutes.
27 \tMake me understand the way of Your precepts;
\tSo shall I meditate on Your wonderful works.
28 \tMy soul melts from heaviness;
\tStrengthen me according to Your word.
29 \tRemove from me the way of lying,
\tAnd grant me Your law graciously.

Here this man calls on the Lord to remove sin in his life. By what means does God accomplish this?

33 \tTeach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes,
\tAnd I shall keep it to the end.
34 \tGive me understanding, and I shall keep Your law;
\tIndeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 \tMake me walk in the path of Your commandments,
\tFor I delight in it.

Can a man who is living according to the law of Moses know these things?

Does this man speak of time?

49 \tRemember the word to Your servant,
\tUpon which You have caused me to hope.
50 \tThis is my comfort in my affliction,
\tFor Your word has given me life.

Is this not the definition of faith...in verse 49 we hear of God's promise to this man...in verse 50 we hear that the word of God has given him life.

What is the outcome of this promise?

Psa. 119:40 \tBehold, I long for Your precepts;
\tRevive me in Your righteousness.

Who is the dispenser of this rigtheousness?

Psa. 119:154 Plead my cause and redeem me;
\t\tRevive me according to Your word.

Who is the only One according to Scripture that is able to plead this man's cause?

In Christ
Jeff

In other words, can one write the word of God without first knowing the "life" that creates salvation for the individual?

This is just a small picture of what the Law cannot do. The Law itself is perfect, but the one trying to keep the Law is not perfect and a non-perfect being cannot keep the Law unto salvation. The Law was never meant to give salvation, it was only to make upright before God. The only One who did keep the Law perfect before God was Jesus Christ making Him the only One that fulfilled the Law to become upright and capable of giving Himself a spotless Lamb as the only sacrifice God could receive for the sins of all law breakers. That is why we were chose in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

His death became the only living being that could offer salvation because He was justified before God to offer the only sacrifice the Father could accept for sin and separation From Him, making salvation and bringing men back to God that they might be son's by the Son whom God now gives his son's the same Seed that was perfect before Him in Love, so much that it pleased The Father of Jesus Christ to kill Him a perfect sacrifice so He could have son's in His House. But, it is not good for those that did the killing, because they would not believe what this Son was saying and doing to prove to them that He was the Son and would give them reconciliation with the One that wanted to be their Father, they would not.

Now, how can this Son make these son's be the ones that would hear what He was saying. The Father must draw them and give them to the only Son that could make them wise, righteous, redeemed and sanctified to becomes son's of God? He would put His Son's Spirit in them and the old spirit of their father the devil would be put out. That is why "The Word Himself" is stronger than any two edged sword and separates the soul and spirit and body. Giving the Spirit of Christ to our spirit making us One in Christ Jesus, then giving the Holy Spirit to our soul mind, that we might know that we are now son's of God, by the renewing of our mind to the mind of Christ that has been given us at the birth of Christ in us, thus Born Again, also quickened in our mortal bodies to now contain the specific presence of God in Christ Jesus and being taught by the Holy Spirit which is now the Church of the Holy Spirit, this temple we live in, which some day will be just like the temple of God in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ our Spirit life, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of our minds, and a quickened body which when planted will be just like the Body of Jesus Christ, the Perfect Corn of Wheat, that we now have and are only waiting to be planted to be just like that wonderful resurrected Body of Christ. Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

We are this corn of wheat walking around in quickened bodies with the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in us. That is our glory, this great mystery that no person had ever seen or heard before it was revealed to Paul. Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The word autos is not just "to his saints", but is much more than that; The baffling wind:

846. autos
Search for G846 in KJVSL
autoV autos ow-tos'

from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which.

"To His saints" is not even hear, but should be rendered together in His saints.

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

"The sound thereof" is the same word "autos" the baffling wind of the Born Again in Christ Jesus. "Christ In you the Hope of Glory"

In Christ: Phillip

Genesis 17:4-8 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

If you look at who is going to make Abraham who he is and what he will be, it certainly is not Abraham. God said, "I will", or "I made", this is what God put into Abraham, not because of his faith because he had not faith to believe God in anything God said. None of us have this faith. Man is given a measure of faith when he is born and all of us have it, but none us can use it to believe God unless God gives us a faith to believe Him. That is why Abraham could believe God and it was counted to him as faith unto righteousness.

Now concerning the faith of the believer in Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God. We never had the faith to believe either, that is why the Holy Spirit was sent to convict man, that he might know that he had need of a Savior. Once this conviction strikes a spark in the faith that all mankind are given, then that spark begins to bring the faith to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and by believing, then we receive the Seed, and Christ now becomes the faith of the Son of God. Christos Pistis; Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ (((:))) nevertheless I live ; yet not I , but Christ liveth in me : and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith ((())) of the Son of God , who loved me , and gave himself for me .

Christos is self explanatory. Pistis is This faith of God in the Son giving us new life after being crucified with Christ and resurrected with Him and Jesus now by birth being our new life, "the life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God".

God made Abraham righteousness by putting faith in him to allow him to believe what God was saying. That is why it was counted to him as righteousness, it was not his own faith or his own righteousness it was the faith of God by saying "I will". Now for those that are in Christ, who has been made our righteousness? It is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. This is a different process, "I will" and "God has made", what has God made? 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus , who of God is made unto us wisdom , and righteousness , and sanctification , and redemption : That , according as it is written , He that glorieth , let him glory in the Lord .

Of Him, again "autos" the same baffling wind that it takes to be born again. Of the Holy Spirit are you in Christ Jesus. "Who of God has been made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Abraham's faith was the faith of God by the "I will" and counted as righteousness to Abraham not made righteousness by God in Christ. Jesus Christ is in the new believer after the Cross and it is His Faith that we now live by, not Abraham's faith or Abraham's righteousness. It is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This working is His working which works in all of us mightily if we rightly divide the word of God and know that it is Christ in us that will do all the works if we just allow Him to.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Hbr 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

And most of all; Hbr 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.

Act 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.

By this; Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

From Paul:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

This is what we will be judged by, not our sin but who we have become in Christ Jesus, son's of God.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. "Which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory"

If God can make a donkey talk then he can make any being write what He wants.

IN Christ, what a statement: Phillip

Brother Ron wrote:

Balaam and Caiaphas spring to mind.

If ones reads the example given to us of Balaam's sin, wouldn't we see a perfect illustration in Jesus's teaching in the parable of the sower?

Mark 4:

18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Was not Balaam a prophet of God? The peoples of his time recognized him as such...

In terms of the example given to us in Scripture of the life of Caiaphas, my question to you is:

What law did he follow, the law of Moses or the law of the Talmud?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Now, how can this Son make these son's be the ones that would hear what He was saying. The Father must draw them and give them to the only Son that could make them wise, righteous, redeemed and sanctified to becomes son's of God? He would put His Son's Spirit in them and the old spirit of their father the devil would be put out.

This explaination you wrote here reminds me of this section of Scripture...

1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

Zech. 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.

Zech. 3:4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”

Zech. 3:5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.”

So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the LORD stood by.

Zech. 3:6 Then the Angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying, 7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
\t‘If you will walk in My ways,
\tAnd if you will keep My command,
\tThen you shall also judge My house,
\tAnd likewise have charge of My courts;
\tI will give you places to walk
\tAmong these who stand here.

Do you see the remarkable parallel in Scripture of what you wrote above?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

If you look at who is going to make Abraham who he is and what he will be, it certainly is not Abraham. God said, "I will", or "I made", this is what God put into Abraham, not because of his faith because he had not faith to believe God in anything God said. None of us have this faith. Man is given a measure of faith when he is born and all of us have it, but none us can use it to believe God unless God gives us a faith to believe Him. That is why Abraham could believe God and it was counted to him as faith unto righteousness.

When God promises to be God to Abraham and to each generation after Abraham, for an everlasting covenant, what covenant could that only be?

For as you said above, it is God who must do. By what means does He accomplish this work in Abraham, and in each generation that follows Abraham?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

We are this corn of wheat walking around in quickened bodies with the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in us. That is our glory,

This reminds me of other Scriptures...

Psa. 4:1 \tHear me when I call, O God of my righteousness!
\tYou have relieved me in my distress;
\tHave mercy on me, and hear my prayer.
2 \tHow long, O you sons of men,
\tWill you turn my glory to shame?
\tHow long will you love worthlessness
\tAnd seek falsehood?
\t\t\t\tSelah
3 \tBut know that the LORD has set apart for Himself him who is godly;
\tThe LORD will hear when I call to Him.

Psa. 7:8 \tThe LORD shall judge the peoples;
\tJudge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness,
\tAnd according to my integrity within me.
9 \tOh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end,
\tBut establish the just;
\tFor the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.

Is Scripture correct when David refers to himself as possessing righteousness?

Is he an example of what you stated above?

In Christ
Jeff

In Psalm 119 we find these thoughts...

Psa. 119:7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,
\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:40 \tBehold, I long for Your precepts;
\tRevive me in Your righteousness.

Psa. 119:62 \tAt midnight I will rise to give thanks to You,
\tBecause of Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:106 I have sworn and confirmed
\t\tThat I will keep Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:121 I have done justice and righteousness;
\t\tDo not leave me to my oppressors.

Psa. 119:123 My eyes fail from seeking Your salvation
\t\tAnd Your righteous word.

Psa. 119:137 Righteous are You, O LORD,
\t\tAnd upright are Your judgments.
138 Your testimonies, which You have commanded,
\t\tAre righteous and very faithful.

Psa. 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
\t\tAnd Your law is truth.

Psa. 119:144 The righteousness of Your testimonies is everlasting;
\t\tGive me understanding, and I shall live.

Psa. 119:160 The entirety of Your word is truth,
\t\tAnd every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

Psa. 119:164 Seven times a day I praise You,
\t\tBecause of Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Your word,
\t\tFor all Your commandments are righteousness.

How do this man know about righteousness?

Under the power of what covenant does he know?

(Remember Romans 3...all are totally depraved...and the carnal mind is enmity against the Lord)

In Christ
Jeff

Absolutely, but Joshua is not Jesus Christ, he is a picture of what Christ would become and now is. We must see Christ in the whole word of God, but making Him the salvation of the old testament is not rightly dividing the scripture. To the Jew first, and then the Gentile. Old and New. Law and giving faith by God to believe, for the old and Making Christ in you our Faith by Grace are two different dispensations. One earthly the other Heavenly.

In Christ: Phillip

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

I have always made it plain that Christ in you is the Hope of Glory and this Christ in you must come after the Cross, it was not available before the Cross. It finishes the work Christ did on the Cross.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Now Pentecost is available. Not before the ascension of Christ and the answered Prayer of Jesus to the Father for the Comforted to come.

Now Christ in you is available to those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Jesus Christ the Son of God in the believer and being made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Not before the Cross was this mystery known. No not known. Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Dispensation of Law and mercy and the Dispensation of Grace by Faith to provide a new life in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip

Psalm 119 is Christ and what He will accomplish in His ministry.

Psalms 119:22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

No one but Christ can do this: Psalms 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

This is in the garden, Jesus looking into the cup He must drink. Horror that caused the sweat of great drops of Blood.

Psalms 119:53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

The longest Psalm in the bible, rightly so, and this still does not give the whole make up of Jesus Christ to His Father.

Only Christ could say this.

Psalms 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

Father take this cup from me, yet not my will but thy will be done.

Psalms 119:173-176 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts. I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Do you know what was in that cup? It was the sin of the whole world. That is enough to horrify anyone, yet Jesus said, not what I want but what you want.

In Christ: Phillip

When God promises to be God to Abraham and to each generation after Abraham, for an everlasting covenant, what covenant could that only be?

It is the covenant that found its fulfillment in the person of Christ; the promised seed. Not to be confused with the Sinai Covenant with the people of Israel which ended at Calvary. It had 'local' outworkings in the life of Abraham and those who shared Abraham's kind of faith but its goal was the bringing forth of the Seed.

'everlasting covenant' is a phrase which always needs to be examined in its context. eg
The shewbread was to be set before the Lord for an 'everlasting covenant', although there were many gaps in the performance even before it was ended at Calvary. Lev 24:8

David's dynasty was to be for an 'everlasting covenant' even though the monarchy ended in 597 BC. 2Sam 23:5

The Sinai Covenant was described as an 'everlasting covenant' although God took it away to make room for the New Covenant. 1Chr 16:17. Ps 105:10.

The phrase 'everlasting' in scripture literally means 'age-enduring' and the 'everlastingness' of the word is determined by the time parameters of the covenant. It might be translated 'uninterrupted'. It does not mean 'eternal' in all its uses.

Also, an everlasting covenant, not only because it was to endure as long as the Jewish religion and polity stood, but also because this was to stand there everlastingly, or continually, as is here said, and therefore the new cakes were first brought before the old were taken away.

The Jewish religious ceremonial parts no longer exist in the temple and the politicalness of the temple priest hood does not exist either.

"The new cakes must be brought before the old is taken away." The new covenant must come first by Jesus Christ before the old covenant is taken away.

The old covenant does not exist and the new covenant in the Blood of Jesus Christ does. That is why in Christ there is no longer Jew or Gentile. They are one in Christ Jesus. This is individual salvation into One Body, which is the Body of Christ His Church, not the old covenant of Abraham. We should never put the old covenant with the new covenant That is like putting the members of Christ's body with the harlot wife of God, that is Israel. Don't commingle the harlot with the bride.

1Cr 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Who is the Harlot? Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

Who was her Husband?

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] His name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall He be called.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

This is the separation of Israel and the body of Christ the Church. She will be redeemed on the slave block as in Hosea buying back the harlot wife and bringing her into covenant again.

This will happen in the millennium when Christ is King on David's throne and Israel on this earth will be what she was intended to be when God chose her through Abraham and made her his wife.

We are the body of Christ His bride. I don't need to explain the difference, it is plain in scripture.

In Christ His bride, Phillip

Brother Ron wrote:

It is the covenant that found its fulfillment in the person of Christ; the promised seed. Not to be confused with the Sinai Covenant with the people of Israel which ended at Calvary. It had 'local' outworkings in the life of Abraham and those who shared Abraham's kind of faith but its goal was the bringing forth of the Seed.

I would go one step further in saying that the grace of God creates a faith that produces the Seed in those who live by faith.

To know the righteousness that emanates from God, one will come to understand that the spiritual dna is contained in the Seed. He is the revelation of salvation for those who believe.

God Bless you brother

In Christ
Jeff

This will happen in the millennium when Christ is King on David's throne and Israel on this earth will be what she was intended to be when God chose her through Abraham and made her his wife.

"The new cakes must be brought before the old is taken away." The new covenant must come first by Jesus Christ before the old covenant is taken away.

A similar 'passing away' of the old before the coming of the new is seen in [color=0000ff]“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
(Ezek 36:26-27 KJVS)[/color] where the 'new heart' is given after the 'old heart' is removed.

One aspect of 'enduing' which is easily missed is the forms of dress familiar to the Biblical period. The familiar phrase is [color=0000ff]“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49 KJVS)[/color] Many other versions translate this as does the ASV... [color=0000ff]“And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49 ASV)[/color]...as 'clothed' and this has given the impression that the Pentecostal effusion was merely an 'upon' experience of the Spirit. Other uses of the word 'enduO' show this 'clothing' element clearly; Matt 6:25; 22:11; 27:31; Mark 1:6; 6:9; 15:17,20; Luke 12:22; 15:22; 24:49; Acts 12:21; Rom 13:12,14; 1Cor 15:53-54; 2Cor 5:3; Gal 3:27; Eph 4:24; 6:11,14; Col 3:10,12; 1Th 5:8; Rev 1:13; 15:6; 19:14

However we must not relegate this to a mere external event as we can see plainly from ...[color=0000ff]“The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us [u]put on the armour of light[/u]. But [u]put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ[/u], and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” (Rom 13:12,14 KJVS)[/color] ...where is it clear that we are reading about the inward character of Christ which is the direct result of 'indwelling'.

The derivation of 'enduO' is instructive. 'duO' means to sink and is used in Mark 1:32; Luke 4:40 to describe the 'setting' or 'sinking' sun. The prefix 'en' is 'in' or 'within'. It is an interesting idiom of Greek that they did not 'put on' their clothes but 'sank down into them'. It is the idiom we employ when we say 'I'll just slip into something more comfortable'. This is 'power' that we step into and which clothes us. The English idiom of 'putting clothes [u]on[/u]' may mislead us here.

We must not, therefore, slavishly conceive of the Spirit coming 'upon' as an alternative to the Spirit coming 'within' or of us being 'in the Spirit'. These are helpful images not straight-jackets. The purpose is focus and emphasis rather than fiercely defined words of territorial location.

One of the words frequently used of the Spirit is 'dunamis' which many preachers will tell you is like 'dynamite'. I once heard a Pentecostal preacher say "you are to be clothed with dynamite and that means no smoking!". There's an interesting exposition! But 'dunamis' does not mean 'bolt-on power' but rather 'inherent power'. It is the power of the nature of a thing. An army's 'power' would be defined in terms of 'man-power', that is, its inherent strength which is measured by its constituent parts not its weaponry. Birds, generally, have flying dunamis. It is not an optional extra but a power inherent in the nature of the creature. The promised 'dunamis' then of the New Covenant was not 'power to do' primarily but the 'power to be', and from the inherent power of a new disposition a new era of the Spirit would flow.

In considering the time when the disciples were 'indwelt' by the Spirit we must also consider the corollary that those indwelt by the Spirit and also 'in the Spirit'. [color=0000ff]“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”
(John 14:20 KJVS)[/color]
Now all we have to do is identify 'that day'. ;-) The phrase is used three times in John...
[color=0000ff]John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: [/color]
The John 14:20 is preceded by the phrase "I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you" It is followed by the statement [color=0000ff]Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23 KJVS)[/color] and by the statement that the Father will send the Spirit in Christ's name (v26) Can there be any doubt but that this is referring to the day of Pentecost? [color=0000ff]“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
(Acts 2:33 KJVS)[/color]

This was not accomplished until Christ was 'exalted at the right hand of the Father'. While Christ was on earth He could not 'indwell' anyone. It was only when he had left the earth and sent the Spirit that 'indwelling' could be possible.

Brother Phillip wrote:

Absolutely, but Joshua is not Jesus Christ, he is a picture of what Christ would become and now is. We must see Christ in the whole word of God, but making Him the salvation of the old testament is not rightly dividing the scripture.

I have found in Scripture that men either begin to grow into the image of Satan or Christ.

This particular section of Scripture describes both Lucifer and the son of Nebuchadnezzar.

Is. 14:3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
\t“How the oppressor has ceased,
\tThe golden city ceased!
5 \tThe LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,
\tThe scepter of the rulers;
6 \tHe who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
\tHe who ruled the nations in anger,
\tIs persecuted and no one hinders.
7 \tThe whole earth is at rest and quiet;
\tThey break forth into singing.
8 \tIndeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
\tAnd the cedars of Lebanon,
\tSaying, “Since you were cut down,
\tNo woodsman has come up against us.’
9 \t“Hell from beneath is excited about you,
\tTo meet you at your coming;
\tIt stirs up the dead for you,
\tAll the chief ones of the earth;
\tIt has raised up from their thrones
\tAll the kings of the nations.
10 \tThey all shall speak and say to you:
\t“Have you also become as weak as we?
\tHave you become like us?
11 \tYour pomp is brought down to Sheol,
\tAnd the sound of your stringed instruments;
\tThe maggot is spread under you,
\tAnd worms cover you.’
12 \t“How you are fallen from heaven,
\tO Lucifer, son of the morning!
\tHow you are cut down to the ground,
\tYou who weakened the nations!
13 \tFor you have said in your heart:
\t“I will ascend into heaven,
\tI will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
\tI will also sit on the mount of the congregation
\tOn the farthest sides of the north;
14 \tI will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
\tI will be like the Most High.’
15 \tYet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
\tTo the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 \t“Those who see you will gaze at you,
\tAnd consider you, saying:
\t‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
\tWho shook kingdoms,
17 \tWho made the world as a wilderness
\tAnd destroyed its cities,
\tWho did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 \t“All the kings of the nations,
\tAll of them, sleep in glory,
\tEveryone in his own house;
19 \tBut you are cast out of your grave
\tLike an abominable branch,
\tLike the garment of those who are slain,
\tThrust through with a sword,
\tWho go down to the stones of the pit,
\tLike a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 \tYou will not be joined with them in burial,
\tBecause you have destroyed your land
\tAnd slain your people.
\tThe brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 \tPrepare slaughter for his children
\tBecause of the iniquity of their fathers,
\tLest they rise up and possess the land,
\tAnd fill the face of the world with cities.”
22 \t“For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts,
\t“And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,
\tAnd offspring and posterity,” says the LORD.

I believe that this example in Scripture illustrates the outworking of God's promise to Satan in Genesis 3:15. In this particular promise God speaks of Satan's seed and the woman's Seed. The above Scripture paints a picture of Lucifer's seed, the son of Nebuchadnezzar.

So likewise we also are given examples of the woman's Seed.

Does not faith create the image of the one whom one worships?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Psalm 119 is Christ and what He will accomplish in His ministry.

Would not those who experienced the word of God as the writer of Psalm 119 did, know Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron wrote:

This was not accomplished until Christ was 'exalted at the right hand of the Father'. While Christ was on earth He could not 'indwell' anyone. It was only when he had left the earth and sent the Spirit that 'indwelling' could be possible.

When one speaks of indwelling what is it that the Spirit of Christ brings forth in an individual?

Does this have any corelation with the definition of faith given to us in the book of Hebrews?

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff writes...

When one speaks of indwelling what is it that the Spirit of Christ brings forth in an individual?

Does this have any corelation with the definition of faith given to us in the book of Hebrews?

Many modern versions have taken the line of least resistance with this verse and have translated it 'revealed his Son [u]to[/u] me. (NIV, ESV, NLT, RSV) The word 'in' is the Greek word 'en' which is most easily translated as 'in' (or within) and possibly as 'by'. The point of reference in this verse is that Christ is 'in Paul'. It is the corollary to Paul's famous phrase 'in Christ'. As a result of Christ being 'in' Paul it was possible for Christ to reveal Himself 'in' or 'by' Paul. Paul becomes an incarnate revelation of Christ himself.

The OT experience was of faithful men, empowered by the Holy Spirit, who bore witness to Christ. His purpose for Israel was that they should be 'witnesses' to the God who dwelt 'among' them. This theme is continued in Acts where Christ says that "you shall receive inherent power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and you shall be witnesses to me..."

This special 'coming upon' 'falling upon' 'being Holy Spirit filled' clearly took place in the next chapter. From this time God had come to his temple, the new born church, and the church became his witnesses. I have often made the point that this is 'being witnesses' and not just 'witnessing'. It was not just the words but the lives of these men and women which would become God's witness upon the earth... not longer designated 'Jehovah's Witnesses' as Israel had been but now 'Jesus' Witnesses'.

The 'definition of faith' from Hebrews is used to introduce what is sometimes called the theme of 'justifying faith' as a reading of the examples makes plain. Abraham was justified by faith, so was David and many more. But did these OT saints have the unique empowering of the Pentecostal Spirit to qualify and equip them to [u]be[/u] 'Jesus' Witnesses'?

Jeff wrote:

"So likewise we also are given examples of the woman's Seed.

Does not faith create the image of the one whom one worships? "

The only seed of the woman that is of any consequence pertaining to Jesus Christ is Mary's seed, which is the ovum of the woman, that is the special body. (no sin in the ovum) that God had given her to prepare for the sin free body of Christ to receive the Seed of God From the Father to create A Son that was the Lamb of God.
Thus Christ all God and all man. God incarnate in man. That is why woman was taken out of man and became the receiver of seed by her seed.

There is no sin transfer of the seed of a women. The sin transfer comes from Adam, the man, in whom the seed carries the sin nature of the father he chose, that is Satan. None of us can choose to have a different father by flesh birthing, we can only have a different Father by spiritual birth. That is the old man, with Satan as Adam's chosen father. The New man is The Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Now by the new birthing by God the Father putting His Seed in the human container which is now The New Creature in Christ Jesus, we are birthed by the Incorruptable Seed of God Himself and the old seed of Satan is no more in control of the container.

Faith comes by the Christ in us, or else the faith given to all mankind would be the faith that we live by, and that faith cannot reach the kingdom of God. "Ye must be born again our you cannot enter or see the thing of the Kingdom of God. This is the "Faith of the Son of God" which the born again live by.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If we are crucified with Christ then we live by the Faith of Christ that is in us.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That is why John can say "if we say we have no sin we make God a liar." Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Then with Christ in you, John says, "He that is born of God cannot sin". We are as free from sin as the Christ that is born again in us. That is why God is faithful and just to forgive us by our confession in agreeing with God what sin is.

Faith is not in a woman or man, Faith is in Christ and Christ is in you the Hope of Glory.

So; Quote: "Does not faith create the image of the one whom one worships?" No, but the Faith of the Image of Christ Himself, who is Christ in you, does.

In Christ, becoming faithful because of His Faith in me: Phillip

Ron, Great explanation, would it be alright if I use it in bible study?

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Ron wrote:

It was not just the words but the lives of these men and women which would become God's witness upon the earth... not longer designated 'Jehovah's Witnesses' as Israel had been but now 'Jesus' Witnesses'.

I have two comments...

First, Is not Jesus the One who bares witness of Himself in all generations. I say this in regards to the idea of how men learn the righteousness that emanates from God.

Job 33:26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.

Here we learn that God is the one who restores man by giving him "His righteousness."

We see the same in...

Psa. 119:40 \tBehold, I long for Your precepts;
\tRevive me in Your righteousness.

By what means does God enable man to know His righteousness?

Secondly, in the definition of faith, we find these words...

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

What might one understand "the substance" to be?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

The only seed of the woman that is of any consequence pertaining to Jesus Christ is Mary's seed, which is the ovum of the woman, that is the special body.

An earthly woman, a woman made from the dust of the earth does not have a seed...

According to Scripture, it is man who has the seed.

In Genesis 3:15 God is speaking to Satan. The promise that God speaks to Satan is entirely spiritual in nature. Please remember that we war not against flesh and blood but against the powers and principalities of this world.

When Scriptures speaks of children in the spiritual nature we see two sources of creation. One father is Satan, the other Father of course is God.

In Christ
Jeff

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity , and between thy seed and her seed ; it shall bruise thy head

Ron, Great explanation, would it be alright if I use it in bible study?

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

What might one understand "the substance" to be?
A quick look at the [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=11&verse=1&version=KJV#1]Blue Letter Bible version comparisons[/url] will illustrate the meaning of 'substance' in this passage. Faith is the inward conviction of things beyond our natural sight and reach.

Brother Ron wrote:

Faith is the inward conviction of things beyond our natural sight and reach.

According to Scripture what source is responsible for this "inward conviction of things beyond our natural sight and reach?"

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Not a spiritual seed but a physical seed

Genesis 3:15 is directed to Satan. Is Satan physical or spiritual in nature?

In Christ
Jeff

According to Scripture what source is responsible for this "inward conviction of things beyond our natural sight and reach?"

...faith works by grace.

Jeff wrote:

"Genesis 3:15 is directed to Satan. Is Satan physical or spiritual in nature?"

Satan's seed is spiritual, her seed is physical and spiritual Jesus Christ In the desert Physically, Mary's Seed physical and Satan's seed spiritual. This is the promise of Gen 3:15.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

15 \tAnd I will put enmity
\tBetween you and the woman,
\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;
\tHe shall bruise your head,
\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.”

First, we begin with the promise that there will be hatred between Satan and the woman...

This speaks of hatred which exists before the birth of any seed. In the entirety of Scripture we find that the battle is spiritual in nature. The earthly woman in Scripture is never said to have the seed in procreation. And in terms of the virgin Mary, by what means was she made pregnant?

Secondly, the seed of Satan speaks of the spiritual birth of Satan in the flesh of man. Jesus speaks of this in John 8

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Do you see the two groups depicted here in Scripture?

Jesus says to the Pharisees, “If God were your Father, you would love Me,..."

But because Satan is their father, they hate Jesus...

Thoughtout Scripture we find the fulfillment of this promise in both the OT and NT.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron quoted...

that it might be by grace;

By what means does God deliver grace to the individual?

In other words...

Psalm 119
18 \tOpen my eyes, that I may see
\tWondrous things from Your law.
19 \tI am a stranger in the earth;
\tDo not hide Your commandments from me.

27 \tMake me understand the way of Your precepts;
\tSo shall I meditate on Your wonderful works.

29 \tRemove from me the way of lying,
\tAnd grant me Your law graciously.

35 \tMake me walk in the path of Your commandments,
\tFor I delight in it.
36 \tIncline my heart to Your testimonies,
\tAnd not to covetousness.
37 \tTurn away my eyes from looking at worthless things,
\tAnd revive me in Your way.

Are these examples of the grace necessary for one to have a faith that has it's source in God?

In Christ
Jeff

By what means does God deliver grace to the individual?

[color=0000ff]“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
(Eph 2:5,8 KJVS)[/color]

God saves 'by grace' but 'through faith'.

Brother Ron wrote:

As you indicate here, grace is not itself 'the means' but the source; faith is the means.

Could Abraham have faith without God speaking to him?

In Christ
Jeff

Could Abraham have faith without God speaking to him?

Brother Ron wrote:

My definition of faith is 'response to revelation'.

I agree with your definition.

The idea of revelation can be seen throughout Scripture. Would your definition of grace include revelation?

In Christ
Jeff

This sermon preached by A.W. Tozer, teaches that the Holy Spirit indwelled the OT prophets.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2396

In Christ
Jeff

The idea of revelation can be seen throughout Scripture. Would your definition of grace include revelation?