Once a Son, Always a Son?

I still believe in "once saved, always saved" through Jesus´ blood that He shed on the cross for our sins. Also, if you read Romans 6:38-39, it says: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" KJV.
Once we repent from our sin and give our lives to Jesus, we are adopted by God as His children. Look at Romans 8:14: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God". And 8:15: "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". Of course it is still possible for us to sin, look at Romans 7:14-20: "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me ( that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". And then verse 24 goes on "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Verse 25, which I think is the most important here, says " I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin".

If even Paul had these problems, why should we not? And do you believe that he thought himself a child of Satan, because his flesh continued to sin? No, he knew he was a child of God through Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Bea

While I don't believe God saves and then unsaves, I tend to shy away from the 'once always' statements. Why? Because you don't find them in Scripture. Certainly if that were the way God intened His people to think, He would have said so. But rather, the Scripture says things like, hold fast, endure, keep the faith, etc, etc.

I have a dear brother who I work and preach under, who often stands up and speaks after I get finished, comforting our boys with 'once saved, always saved' teaching, and to tell you the truth, I don't fight him one bit. But I, personally, will stay true to what God speaks to me. It was Gurnall in his famous tome that said something like this:

"When you find someone who preaches near popery, without preaching popery, that's your man."

I don't want to debate about that statement, but rather confirm the spirit of what Gurnall was saying; that the pure gospel message should properly induce fear on the man who is living out of God's will, whether he is saved or not. The gospel should make people uncomfortable who are in rebellion to God, not by intellectual means, but by the Spirit, of course.

I once spoke with a man who asked me this question after handing him a 'Hell's Best Kept Secret' CD: "Do you believe in pouring gasoline on someone and then just lighting them on fire?" I knew this was going to get good. The man kept telling me, "I believe in once saved, always saved," but then he would tell me he did not believe in hell. I tried all the reasoning but he just wouldn't listen. All I could think about was Hebrews 6.

So while I don't believe the GENUINE convert will fall away, I don't preach 'once saved always saved' but rather, 'examine yourselves...prove your own selves' and 'make your calling and election sure.'

I think if you take the debate away, and look at the genuine man or woman of God, regardless of their view on eternal security, you will see a holy life. I concentrate on what the Scripture says to me today, instead of only focusing on what happened the day I met the Lord.

I attend a church that leans to one side of the debate, and work in a ministry that for the most part leans to the other (I will let you guess which). All denominations have those who are out of the will of God (like early Rev, 'I am somewhat against thee' etc). Of the lukewarm in each, I see in the Armenian schools of thought, a kind of nervousness and anxiety, and in the OSAS schools of thought, those that seem to be a little more of a drift toward 'sin that grace may abound.' (and truthfully, a drift toward being 'at ease in Zion' in both).

I think the problem is twofold: people don't really get into the Scriptures, people aren't serious about prayer (I am much more guilty of the second). Regardless of stance on this debate, almost everyone I have met who really devours the Word of God and stays hungry for it, seems to have a clean, sanctified spirit about them. Most often those who either seem anxious or 'backslidden' are almost guaranteed to not be desiring the sincere milk of the word. And of the ones who do much study but are still getting tossed about, I would bet they 'hear' the words but don't 'do' what they read.

Didn't want to sidetrack the issue, Laz, your subject just brings up a lot of feelings after getting a taste of so many different Christians.

Lazarus

What does God say? ( not what" people say")

Quote Laz

"if a person can "lose" their sonship to the devil, then they can "lose" their sonship to God as well."

Where in the bible teaches this?

First of all, you seemed to have assumed the devil is as powerful as God. When believers are adopted to God's sonship, do you actually think that the devil can touch them?

[b]John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and [i]no man is able[/i] to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38-39

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, [i]shall be able to separate us from[/i] the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,[i] ye were sealed [/i]with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[/b]

Quote Laz

"And when a person becomes a backslider, they are no longer children of God but become children of the devil."

Again, did you make this up? Where's the scriptural base?

Backsliding,was a term in the days when God used to proclaim against Israel/Judah by Jeremiah and Hosea, pinpointed mainly to their turning back into idolatries since GOD delivered them from Egypt. Since, strangely, this word has been always used to describe sinning Christians' in relationship to their soteriological position.

Lastly, define sins that are considered the backsliding type?? Adultery? Fornications? Idolatry? Greed? Back to Judaism? Back to Buddism? None of these? How about PRIDE?

Take any of your most respected evangelists, someone who preaches and "saves" millions, in his deep dark closet, he's loaded with unrepented sin in pride, sin in hate, do you see he's a sinner or a backslider?

Study l John:

4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, [b]we lie[/b], and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from [b]all sin. [/b]

8If we say that we have no sin, [b]we deceive ourselves,[/b] and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ( PRAISE GOD FOR THIS SO MUCH !!)

10If we say that we have not sinned,[b] we make him a liar[/b], and his word is not in us.

When we (Christians) sin, or turn back to sins, are liars, we deceive ourselves and GOD, not backsliders. Sonship will not be tainted.

However, professing 'christians' who persist in the same sins, who commit them without repentance or remorse, I call those false brethren, who lied about their conversion, whom were never born again to begin with, again, not backsliders.

Laz, please study hard and know your doctrine before you go preach it to anyone else, this is very serious. It's far better not to preach than to preach falsehood or errors !!

sincerely

Letsgetbusy,

you know, the word "Trinity" is not mentioned in scripture either, and we still believe in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, right? Or the word "rapture". I don´t think we should go by this, but like you said, what the Word of God says about it!

In Christ
Bea

i think backslider is a bad word to use, i dont think there are such thing as a born again backslider, we can fall into sin and do sin, but if we fall away completly, to me that is evidence they never were saved to begin whit, so how can anyone backslide if they werent saved, as mamaluk said...there are many false brethren out there, many who says im a christian...but we can know them by there fruits...

and as everyone is saying what does god say? that is the only importent thing...

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

they where not all of us...hmm does that meen they were only backsliden? or does it meen they never where of us to begin whit...

christian

and i have to add...since ive talked of this subject not to long ago...i belive the word teches from those verses mamaluk provided here that if a person is truly born of god...the same god who created the universe...if that god has made a new creation in me or anyone else...exept i choose to divorce god and rip him out of my heart willingly knowing the consecuenses of eternal damnation... exept i do that...no one can touch me becuse god shall finich what he started, for his eternal glory, the devil aint got nothing on the children of god, he may lie to us and make us take a wrong turn here and there...but god dosent abandon his children...

ohh glory to the living god, i find such comfort in this, he will never leave me or any of his children

glory be to god
amen

Sidenote: I heard in Jewish tradtion. That when a son was born into the family, he could leave the family and be no more with that family. BUT once a son was adopted in, he was to NEVER EVER leave the family because he was bought with a price. 8-)

you are right in many ways lazarus, an older saint told me when i mentioned things like this, he said in acts 14:22 that it is thru much suffering that we enter into the kingdom of god, and that the paralell of the sower shows many are going to fall away, and as for when many went away, in matthew there were 5000 eating food from christ right? how many was then the many that went away? probably very many people...

but this old man told me, son there is a time to be harch and rebuke people, but most of the time we have to encurage them in love, every time all the time, ii was all exited and like LOOK LOOK THEY ARE ALL GOING TO HELL! and maybe that is so, but he told me its hard to go about people like that if they dont know you love them, and to say that to someone else who is not quite there or have fallen away and is living in sin, sometimes they may need conviction, sometimes encuragement and that is why we need maturity, i know i will always almost do the wrong thing, when encuragement is needed i will rebuke, and the other way around, im now trying to be more still and whit a LOVING tone in a LOVING way show people to scripture, and encurage them to read there bible and pray, and come to meetings, i can do that and maybe they will by gods grace come around and turn around, and after some years maturing i can know by my experience when i should be harcher and rebuke people and be hard on them, but still, we can NEVER change someone else.... no not one single person, not truly anyway...only god can, so dont forget his involment in this, and may god walk whit you in your ministry lazarus, more people need to do what you do.

gods peace and guidence to you
christian

letsgetbusy wrote:

But rather, the Scripture says things like, hold fast, endure, keep the faith, etc, etc.

I believe, when scripture is speaking about these things, it is referring to our rewards, not to salvation.

2. John 8: "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward".

And in 1. Cor. 3 Paul tells us about the foundation we should build on, and the work we do.

1. Cor. 3:14 "If any man´s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man´s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved: yet so as by fire".

Just a thought.

be blessed
Bea

A bit of my other post:
Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" IT IS CHRIST WHO BEGAN.

Phil 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." IT IS GOD WHO WORKS.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." All who have ever fallen away(permanently) were never saved in the first place.

******If you are TRULY saved(justified) you will continue being saved(sanctified) and will finally be saved(glorified).

_______________________________________________
1 John Cpts 2 & 3

"3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"4 Whoever commits(pratices) sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
________________________________________________

God hates sin and somebody who loves sin consequently hates God and is lost. If you are saved you will strive to be holy.

1 Peter 1:16
"because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”"

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

A real conversion is when somebody REPENTS of all thier sin (by the power of God). Turns away from all of it and experiences a radicaly changed life in love for God. If they don't perservere they were not saints. If somebody lives in and practices sin, they are lost.

Its not that by your works you are saved but if you are saved you have works! Otherwise you have a dead faith!

James 2:20
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

James 2:26
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

"Once saved always saved" This phrase is devastating to people who twist things to thier own destruction. The question really is...

2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."

2 Peter 1:10
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble"

WERE YOU SAVED? DID YOU REALLY CHANGE? ARE YOU LIVING IN SIN? DO YOU PRACTICE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?????

Repent, believe, have faith in God, trust Christ's sacrifice, be "Born Again" (or regenerated), follow Christ, obey God, love God, know God, seek God, fear God all the days of your life. Do all these things with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Salvation is by Grace, through faith, in Christ Alone. Be converted! (Provided by God)
________________________________________________
John 10:29
Romans 8:38-39
Ephesians 1:13-14

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." -Martin Luther

www.cornerstoneorlando.org
www.heartcrymissionary.com

It is very possible for a true Christian to:

I just want to add one more very powerful scripture to that list of Scriptures Jesse gave...

Jude 12 talks about men "who are spots on your love feasts"...who are "twice dead."

Now the only way someone can be 'twice dead'...is that they were dead once, made alive through Christ, and now they're dead again.

I understand where the OSAS people are coming from...its just a matter of perspective:

The Arminian views things from a human standpoint. We do not know if one of our own (who we believe is saved) will depart from our Lord and "receive the grace of God in vain" (Heb 12:15). And if that person denies their Lord and walks away from Him, and then is hit by a truck: he is going to hell. And although He was once "saved"...he now is not. He walked away from God.

Yet, the Calvinist views things from an eternal standpoint. He is looking from the outside of 'time', in. Since that man who was hit by the truck never actually [i]received[/i] his salvation and was not 'saved'...in eternity's eyes, he technically never was saved because when the actual time of 'saving' came...he wasn't.

Forgive my fumbling with words, this truly is a hard topic to explain. Where the OSAS people have gone off track though, is that someone comes down the front of church, says a superstitious , formula prayer that is supposed to grant salvation, and then they go off and live like the world and bear no fruit, yet claim salvation through the grace of God.

God bless you all. Endure to the end, so that you may receive the gift of salvation.

Adam

[color=0000ff]Prov. 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

Prov. 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at the length.[/color]

Just a couple of verses that have challenged me from time to time.

Lazarus1719 wrote:

*turn from his righteous ways, commit iniquity, and die (Ezekiel 18:24, 26)
*fall away (Mt 11:6; Mk 14:27,29)
*wander away (Mt 18:12,13)
*turn away from the faith (Mt 24:10)
*stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk 8:13)
*cut in two and assigned a portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46)
*lose your saltiness and be thrown out (Lk 14:34,35)
*turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn 6:66)
*be a branch that is cast out as withered, and thrown in the fire and burned (Jn 15:6)
*go astray (Jn 16:1)
*cease to continue in His goodness, and be cut off (Rom 11:22)
*be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)
*Leave egypt, be baptized, eat and drink of Christ, and yet have God get angry and scatter your body in the wilderness (entire chapter of 1 Cor 10)
*believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2)
*fall away from grace (Gal 5:4)
*cease to continue in the faith, move away from the hope of the Gospel, and not be presented holy, blameless, and above reproach in His sight (Col. 1:23)
*be part of the falling away (2 Thes 2:3)
*wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim 1:5,6)
*have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:19)
*be puffed up with pride and suffer the same condemnation as the devil (1 Tim 3:6)
*have condemnation because they cast off their first faith (1 Tim 5:12)
*turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15)
*depart from the faith (1 Tim 4:1)
*wander away from the faith (1 Tim 6:10,21)
*wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim 2:18)
*turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim 4:4)
*drift away (Heb 2:1)
*acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb 3:12)
*come short of entering His rest (Heb 4:1)
*fall according to disobedience (Hewb 4:11)
*fall away to the point where you can't be renewed to repentance (Heb 6:6)
*sin wilfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth, and there be no sacrifice for sins left, and we come under a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the advesaries of God (Heb 10:26-27)
*fall short of the grace of God, and many become defiled from it (Heb 12:15)
*turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb 12:25)
*be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb 13:9)
be judged (Jam 5:9)
*wander from the truth, and need his soul saved from death (Jam 5:19)
*stuumble [from your calling and election] (2 Pet 1:10)
*leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet 2:15)
*again be entangled in [the pollutions of the world], and the end result is so bad that it would be better for you to never have known the way of righteousness, than to turn from it (2 Peter 2:20-21)
*be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet 3:17)
*have their lampstand removed from its place (Rev 2:5)
not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev 2:10,11)
*have their name blotted out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5)
become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev 3:15,16)
*have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev 22:19)
*have their part from the Book of Life, the holy city, and the things written in the book taken away (Rev 22:18)

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

doesnt this speak of the possibility to waste your life in the flesh and yet be saved?
I'm just wondering.
What do you think about that?

daniel

Hi daniel,

this is exactly what I wrote in my post. I´m thinking the same!

God bless
Bea

Twice dead. That is, either meaning that they are seen to be dead in two successive seasons, showing that there is no hope that they will revive and be valuable; or, using the word twice to denote emphasis, meaning that they are absolutely or altogether dead. Perhaps the idea is, that successive summers and winters have passed over them, and that no signs of life appear. That is not loosing ones salvation.

This also has nothing to do with loosing our salvation: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second death is for those that have died and are resurrected after the millennium and are sent to the lake of fire and die twice along with Satan and all his own. The Jude scripture has all three meanings possible and not a improper relation to loosing our salvation by Christ being birthed in the believer and then being aborted by God and not making the Cross good enough for those that are saved.

Jude is not making the die twice the death of a Christ One that has sinned. Christ in you is the only hope of Glory and God is not going to give someone to Christ and then take him away.
John 6:40
This would be the evidence that we were given to God, and this would be evidence conclusive that we will be saved. If this explanation of the Saviour had always been attended to, the doctrine of election would not have been abused as it has been. Sinners would not sit down in unconcern, saying that if they are given to Christ all will be well. They would have arisen like the prodigal, and would have gone to God; and, having believed on the Saviour, they would then have had evidence that they were given to Him--the evidence resulting from an humble, penitent, believing heart--and then they might rejoice in the assurance that Jesus would lose none that were given to him, but would raise it up at the last day.

John 6:39 Should not have should in it.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me , that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the last day .

It SHOULD read for "I should loose" I will not destroy, die, lose, mar, perish. "nothing" should read exceedingly abundantly loose none. The other "should raise it" It is the same word as in John 6:40 "him" Autos; more literally: of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own,

You cannot get out of Gods Hands once you are in them, by Jesus Christ in us. We are not born again of our own seed.

Loosing ones salvation is the epitome of non belief and the lie of Satan, surely you will be your own god. If you can get out of God's hands He is not God and His Christ means nothing. Man can loose his own salvation but he cannot loose God's salvation by Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Dorcas,

Quote

Hebrews 10:26 - 29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20, 21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

I have always understood these verses directed primariy to the Jewish converts, the audience of the two books. When the Jewish converts return to Judaism, ( which probably indicates that their belief was not of faith to begin with , they were like 'switching' religions only) , they would then 'lose' their stance in Christ. ?!

mamaluk

Phillip,

Twice dead. That is, either meaning that they are seen to be dead in two successive seasons

using the word twice to denote emphasis, meaning that they are absolutely or altogether dead

To go back to Jude, in v.5 it says "[i]Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.[/i]"
The NLT paraphrases it like this, "[i]...he later destroyed every one of those who did not [b]remain[/b] faithful.[/i]" (emphasis mine) Jesus continually said "[i]Those who endure to the end shall be saved.[/i]" (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13) That means that someone can decide to give up halfway through the race, thus [b]not[/b] finishing the race or claiming the prize of salvation. We must endure to the end to receive our salvation!

You must also understand the context of Jude...he is speaking about men who have crept into the church unnoticed who"[i]change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.[/i]"(Jude 4) Now if these men have crept in unnoticed, and yet are denying our Lord Jesus Christ, then obviously they're not denying Him so much with spoken word (something very noticable), but their actions and lifestyle!! And then they claim "grace" as their covering and thus "change the grace of our God into a license for immorality."

Peter goes on about these men, and [b]please read this carefully[/b]:
[i]If they have escaped the corruption of the world by [b]knowing[/b] our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them [b]not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.[/b][/i] (2 Peter 2:20-21 NIV).

Hebrews 10:26-29 hammers this home:
[i]If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?[/i]

Loosing ones salvation is the epitome of non belief and the lie of Satan, surely you will be your own god. If you can get out of God's hands He is not God and His Christ means nothing.

Yes...losing one's salvation [b]is[/b] the epitome of unbelief...that the very reason you can lose it! :-)
But to go along that line of reasoning...God surely cannot be a sovereign God, since Adam "got out of God's hands" through his decision and choice to sin, which in turn seperated him from God.

You forget that our relationship with God is one of love, not of force. That's where free will comes in. God will never leave or forsake us...but we most assuredly can leave and forsake him. Because to choose love, one must be able to choose not to love. To be able to pursue intimacy with God, one must also be able to run in the opposite direction.

I say all of this with the utmost love and respect for you brother. Please forgive my directness...I tend to write like I preach.
God bless you.

Adam

But you see Adam was not a birthed son of God, under the old testament and Law one lost his salvation by not being able to keep the law. The Law Himself is now birthed in us. Adam was only a created being given every opportunity to please God by every means that God gave then and they could not please God.

The only pleasing being to God is Christ Jesus the fulfillment of the Law and all else that pleases God. Jesus Christ is the one born again into a new race of people. If God in not the life of the believer, not born again person can loose the life of God, it is no longer his to loose. Its God's, bought and paid for by the pearl of Great price that will never die again.

Loosing ones salvation is the epitome of unbelief, loosing the perfect gift of God is the living in the unbelief that one can loose the Son of God birthed in him, taking away the peace of God that He gives, not as the world gives by keeping the law and making himself presentable to God for salvation and if not loosing it. Salvation is Christ in you the hope of glory, it is not our choice to receive it or loose it, it is the Father the planter of the Seed. Just like a child in the womb cannot tell the mom, I don't want to be born and if you give me birth, I am going to go back into the womb and not be born. I will loose my birth and there is nothing you can do about it.

In Christ: Phillip

But you see Adam was not a birthed son of God, under the old testament and Law one lost his salvation by not being able to keep the law. The Law Himself is not birthed in us. Adam was only a created being given every opportunity to please God by every means that God gave then and they could not please God.

Adam was the first Son of God, he was the original man! Adam was the one God created so he could [i]walk with Him.[/i] Just because Adam was Old Testament, it doesn't rule out the fact that he was a human being who God created, and yet still had the ability and freedom to choose the way of Satan over the way of God when he was in the garden.

But if you want New Testament (besides all the other scriptures given), then Paul says to Timothy,
"[i]...fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have [b]shipwrecked[/b] their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.[/i]" (1 Timothy 1:18-20 NIV, emphasis mine)

In all humility, you are throwing around some nice sentiments and allegories...which however are unbiblical and untrue. The Scripture must be our final authority...

In regards to your example of giving birth, please read the original post on this thread, which I think pretty sufficiently covers that...

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

i just want to make sure that we all know that paul is speaking of works, not practicing sins.

Election means that God has foreordained that the elect will be saved. They can never perish… they will persevere. That’s all. I'd just like to see somebody submit to the teaching of scripture.

1 John 3:6 “Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.”

John 3:16 “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life;”

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[a] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”

John 6:39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

John 10:28-29 “28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

Eph 1:13, 14 “having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

1 Peter 1:4, 5 “4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Phil 1:6 “6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;”

Romans 6:14 “14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.”

Phil 2:13 “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

1 John 2:19 “19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”

Romans 8:38-39 “38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

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Jesus says that whosoever believes on the Son shall never perish.” But the Arminian says, “Wait and see. Maybe he will go to hell.”

Jude 12 talks about men "who are spots on your love feasts"...who are "twice dead."

the context says...

12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

These people in context have the blackness of darkness reserved forever. How can you have heaven and hell in store for you? These people are apostates and apostates are lost heathen. These people never lost salvation, they never had it. Does God keep erasing our names and adding them to the book of life?

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Understanding those verses Lazarus1719 wrote as evidence contracting the scriptures.

Lazarus1719 wrote:

*turn from his righteous ways, commit iniquity, and die (Ezekiel 18:24, 26)
Romans 3:10-12 “ There is none righteous, no, not one;”
If that man was made righteous in Christ he would have lived. Because He died we can safely say he was never saved.

*fall away (Mt 11:6;
“And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.” Why would they be blessed? Would He say they we’re blessed if they were condemned the more they listen? He is saying blessed are those who are saved which will not be offended because of Him. Who will not deny Christ.
…Mk 14:27,29) Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
Mk 14:27-29 “27 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: ‘ I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered.’ 28 “But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.” 29 Peter said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble, yet I will not be.” “
Jesus is talking about how Peter will deny Christ not fall away. If Peter had fallen away we’d know.

*wander away (Mt 18:12,13)
The parable of the lost sheep is of a believer who wandered from the flock (sinned) but was returned (repentance). He was still a believer when he wandered.

*turn away from the faith (Mt 24:10)
In context Matthew 24:10-13
“At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Who will be saved? Those who endure until the end.

*stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk 8:13)
In context Luke 8:13 says
“Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.” The only soil speaking of those who are saved is the one who bore fruit on the good ground.

*cut in two and assigned a portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46)
He is assigned a portion with the unbelievers because he is lost.

*lose your saltiness and be thrown out (Lk 14:34,35)
In context this speaks of counting the cost of following Christ. The very verse before says “33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.” This is talking about the cost of following Christ. If you have no saltiness you are good for nothing (lost).

*turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn 6:66)
CONTEXT!!!
John 6:64-66
“Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. “

*be a branch that is cast out as withered, and thrown in the fire and burned (Jn 15:6)
The Context…
John 15:4-8 “4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.” Showing yourselves to be my disciples!!!!!

*go astray (Jn 16:1)
In context this speaks of persecution. Just like in Peter’s denial Christ is speaking of denying Him.

*cease to continue in His goodness, and be cut off (Rom 11:22)
Here Paul is speaking of the Jews. In context Paul is speaking about the gentiles who are grafted into the church. The Jews who rejected Christ we’re rejected by Christ. They had never believed.

*be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)
Verse 26: “Run in such a way as to get the prize.” Paul is speaks about “strict training” or holiness in verses 25. Paul says they should pursue holiness… because if you’re not sanctified you’re not saved.
Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”

*Leave egypt, be baptized, eat and drink of Christ, and yet have God get angry and scatter your body in the wilderness (entire chapter of 1 Cor 10)
1 Cor 10:13 “And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”

*believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2)
He’s talking about believing that Christ rose from the dead. Besides he says “IF YOU HOLD FAST”

*fall away from grace (Gal 5:4)
Those who try to be justified by the law cannot be saved by the law and have fallen from the grace of God.

*cease to continue in the faith, move away from the hope of the Gospel, and not be presented holy, blameless, and above reproach in His sight (Col. 1:23)
Here he is saying if you continue in the faith you will be presented holy and blameless.

*be part of the falling away (2 Thes 2:3)
Here Paul is referring to the very act of ultimate apostasy which reveals the final antichrist.

*wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim 1:5,6)
He’s talking about turning aside to other doctrine- not the faith, to become a false teacher and apostate.

*have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:19)
In context, 1 Tim 1:19-20 “18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.” He’s talking about people who have rejected the faith and never had it. Why would they need to learn not to blaspheme?
1 Cor 5:2-5 “And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
He is speaking of church discipline, Matthew 18.

*be puffed up with pride and suffer the same condemnation as the devil (1 Tim 3:6)
This is talking about the qualifications of an elder: they must be saved.

*have condemnation because they cast off their first faith (1 Tim 5:12)
*turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15)
He’s talking about widows who live in sin.
1 John 3:4-9 “4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.”
But we know that whoever lives in sin has never known Christ.

*depart from the faith (1 Tim 4:1)
Yes, a lot of people reject Christ to follow heretical doctrines. Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.

*wander away from the faith (1 Tim 6:10,21)
Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.

*wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim 2:18)
Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.

*turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim 4:4)
Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.

*drift away (Heb 2:1)
Yes, we should persevere by God’s power.

*acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb 3:12)
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

*come short of entering His rest (Heb 4:1)
In context the bible says Heb 4:1-2 “Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it” emphasis added.
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

*fall according to disobedience (Hewb 4:11)
Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

*fall away to the point where you can't be renewed to repentance (Heb 6:6)
In other words you can’t crucify Christ twice. If you reject Christ He may reject you.
After this verse Hebrews goes on to say that if you do not produce fruit you’ll be burned. If you don’t produce fruit its because you are lost.

*sin wilfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth, and there be no sacrifice for sins left, and we come under a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the advesaries of God (Heb 10:26-27)
Context!!!!!
”19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.” This is clearly talking about professing Christians.
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

*fall short of the grace of God, and many become defiled from it (Heb 12:15)
“14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.” This never says that Esau was saved and lost his salvation… If you fall short of the grace of God it’s because you are lost and were always lost. He’s talking about pursuing holiness, and you can’t have holiness apart from God’s grace.

*turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb 12:25)
Who has refused and turned away from Christ? Lost people. This never says that saved people lose their salvation.

*be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb 13:9)
This is just a warning against false teachings.

*be judged (Jam 5:9)
“9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.[c] Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! 10 My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. 11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.”
He is speaking of the perseverance of the saints.

*wander from the truth, and need his soul saved from death (Jam 5:19)
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[f] from death and cover a multitude of sins. This says that the erring one was saved from death meaning He was lost.

*stuumble [from your calling and election] (2 Pet 1:10)
Verses 10 -11: “10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” In context He is talking about growth and assurance not “loosing your election”

*leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet 2:15)
“14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds[b] carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.” These people were lost and never saved. They were apostate.

*again be entangled in [the pollutions of the world], and the end result is so bad that it would be better for you to never have known the way of righteousness, than to turn from it (2 Peter 2:20-21)
“21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” He says it would have been better for them to have never KNOWN THE WAY of righteousness. He never says they were righteous or saved.

*be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet 3:17)
He’s telling them to keep from error, not damnation.

*have their lampstand removed from its place (Rev 2:5)
He’s telling them to repent from their lack of love. If they are lost, then they are damned if they are saved then they won’t be.
“To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
Luke 13:3 “Unless you repent you will all likewise perish”

not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev 2:10,11)
He is talking about suffering persecution and martyrdom, if they don’t remain faithful its because they were lost. Their profession was invalid.

*have their name blotted out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5)
This never says that you can be blotted out of the book of life. It says "I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life"

become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev 3:15,16)
It doesn’t say that this church was saved it says they were lost, miserable and naked.

*have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev 22:19) .
*have their part from the Book of Life, the holy city, and the things written in the book taken away (Rev 22:18)
18 For[i] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[j] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[k] his part from the Book[l] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. First off, if somebody does this they are lost. Its not like they were saved. This is probably one of those sins where you can never find salvation after committing. But according to the bible if they don’t find salvation it was because it was never theirs to have.

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Conclusion, in these list of verses I have yet to find a single verse supporting the claim that those kept by the power of God can LOSE SALVATION. In all reality, if you are kept by God’s power you will be saved. Plus, nobody has accounted for the verses that I have brought up. We should not come to scripture with BIAS.

Jesus says that whosoever believes on the Son shall never perish.” But the Arminian says, “Wait and see. Maybe he will go to hell.

Jesus says that whosoever believes on the Son shall never perish.” But the Arminian says, “Wait and see. Maybe he will go to hell.” ---Edwin H. Palmer

These particular verses in Romans 13 have nothing to do with what I have written. This text in no way supports the idea of losing your salvation. Plus, I see that you haven’t explained why you have chosen these verses to support that claim so I will make guesses.

1st guess:
Maybe you think that the Jews lost their salvation. Well, first off, any Jew who was saved never lost their salvation or rejected Christ ultimately.

2nd guess:
Maybe you think that they can lose their faith?

20 Well; because of unbelief they* were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches*, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee**.

Well, Paul is telling them not to glory because the only way they can stand is by faith provided by God. Plus, if they have not faith God will not spare them either.

3rd guess:
Misunderstanding of the text...
The branches that were broken off were the unbelieving Jews. Those branches spared were believing Jews... Those grafted in are the Gentiles.

Off topic…

15 For if the casting away of them* [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them* be], but life from the dead?

This text is beautiful as it displays the resurrection of the heart in believers

Hi Zealot

Is not Adam a created being made in the image of God? Genesis 1:26-28 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Is not the Born again a new creature? Is Jesus Christ the Same as Adam? I think not.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Not created creatures, but born again creatures like Jesus Christ the only Begotten Son. We are not begotten in birth also when we believe.
We are new creatures in Christ Jesus, for He was the first Born.

The first Adam was formed the Second Adam was birthed of God, which the first Adam was not.

The first Adam was like a Chevy, formed, not birthed as Christ and the Born Again.

Jesus Christ was the First birthed Son of God. We that have been born again are the new race of People of that have been birthed by God by the Seed of God, Jesus Christ in the us the Hope of Glory. 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. It takes a living soul to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God to become a quickened spirit.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who is the Word of God? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Old Testament Adam could not see the Kingdom of God and no one since except Enoch and Elijah and Moses. All else must be born again to see the Kingdom. Adam was earthly, Christ is Heavenly, Adam was a living soul, Christ is a life giving Spirit that must be born again in the believer or he will never see the things of the Kingdom of God. Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of God and if we don't see Him as our life that means that we are not born again. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I made a mistake when I said the law Himself is not birthed in us, I typed the wrong letter, It should read: But you see Adam was not a birthed son of God, under the old testament and Law one lost his salvation by not being able to keep the law. The Law Himself is NOW birthed in us. Adam was only a created being given every opportunity to please God by every means that God gave then and they could not please God.

Every created being from Adam to Jesus Christ could not please God, with the exception of the three mentioned. Non form the Cross can either without the Son of God being born again in them, Jesus Christ is the only one that ever pleased God and He in us is still the only one that pleases God to this day. God does not look at me, He see's Jesus Christ His Son birthed in me and that is why He calls us son's and children of the Living God by the Christ in us the HOPE of Glory.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

How are we justified, sanctified, righteous, and wise?

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

A new creation race of people, specifically a new creature in Christ and Christ in us. Phillip-

Rom 5:14 "14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. "

by Christinyou: Is not the Born again a new creature? Is Jesus Christ the Same as Adam? I think not.

Reading Romans 5 would clear up any confusion.

Every created being from Adam to Jesus Christ could not please God, with the exception of the three mentioned.

The Old Testament Adam could not see the Kingdom of God and no one since except Enoch and Elijah and Moses.

..."By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain" -heb 11:4
..."By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith." -heb 11:7
..."8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance." -heb 11:8
..."By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[b] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised." -heb 11:11
..."20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones." ... heb 11:20-22

and the big one...

"30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[f] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us." -heb 11:30-40

He's saying that there was a nation called Israel growing on a tree but some were not truly a part of the tree (spiritually) so they were cut off of the tree. Those cut off were children according to the flesh not the spirit. There was a Gentile tree where some branches growing were a part of Isreal spiritually so God took them and put them in the tree called Isreal in the spirit.

I don’t believe that All Jews are automatically in the tree of the seed of Abraham. This is talking about the Jews being rejected by God from being in Isreal though they were there according to the flesh.

Romans 9:6-8 “6For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham…
8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.”

Israel was God’s chosen nation, but only the remnant of the believers in the nation were saved.

If you think about why Paul is writing this we’d consider that this whole letter revolves around justification. Paul is explaining to the Gentiles that they can trust God because his promise was not made void to the Jews. God did not lie to Abraham. The children of the spirit were counted as seed whereas the children of the flesh weren’t. Therefore the Gentiles can be grafted into the Vine because although they are not of that race, they can become the children of promise by the spirit by faith.

'their own olive tree' refers to Christ.

In consequence if we say that salvation in Christ is the tree we say that all Jewish people are saved by birth into that race.

I believe this is talking about Israel being Abraham's seed of promise.

Anyways, I do agree that Jews must believe in Christ to be saved.

Thought I would throw this in there too...

Jesus said twice in Matthew (10:22,24:13) and Mark 13:13 that [i]"he who endures to the end will be saved"[/i].

Obviously that means that if someone starts the race, gets halfway through and then stops...they will not be saved. But the point is: [i]they were in the race![/i]

The only way someone can [u]not[/u] endure to the end is that they start the race but do not finish.

I believe Jesus here, is not talking about unbelievers, but people in the 'church.' Again, how can (Rev 3:5) someone be vomited out of His mouth because of lukewarmness...unless they're already a part of His body?
Can you vomit a piece of steak that you haven't eaten yet? No. You can only vomit that which has already become a part of your body.

In my very humble opinion, I just don't see how you can read through Scriptures like this and try and explain it away as something else!
When it comes to God's Word: are people reading what they believe, or believing what they read?
There is a big difference.

God bless you all so much!

Adam

You are mixing metaphors... 2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Meaning He is saved.

Obviously that means that if someone starts the race, gets halfway through and then stops...they will not be saved. But the point is: they were in the race!

1 Corinthians 9:24 [ Striving for a Crown ] Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.

_________________________________________

(Rev 3:5) someone be vomited out of His mouth because of lukewarmness...unless they're already a part of His body?

Readi this in context.. this church was not saved but needed repentance.

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Matthew 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

Even without the race metaphor, Jesus still said "those who endure to the end will be saved."
Those who endure (in faith in Him) until the end of their life (which Paul then compares to a race), will be saved.

Quote:
Obviously that means that if someone starts the race, gets halfway through and then stops...they will not be saved. But the point is: they were in the race!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being in the race doesn't save you.

But you don't say ,"Endure to the end" to someone who isn't in the faith yet! They haven't even begun yet! Jesus is talking to those who believe in Him...

1 Corinthians 9:24 [ Striving for a Crown ] Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The crown being life... salvation.

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Again...I submit to you that you [u]cannot[/u] vomit or spew something unless it has already become a part of your body.
Next time you try to eat your steak, try and make yourself vomit it up before you eat it and it becomes a part of your body. Not going to happen.

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Meaning He is saved.

Your kind of proving my point with that statement...He [b]finished[/b] the race (endured to the end) he [b]kept[/b] the faith (did not lose it, throw it away, or walk away from it) and [b]THEREFORE[/b] he is saved.

Again...I submit to you that you cannot vomit or spew something unless it has already become a part of your body. Next time you try to eat your steak, try and make yourself vomit it up before you eat it and it becomes a part of your body. Not going to happen.

Ok, I'm saying that they needed to repent and be saved. They were never a part of Christ's true church. Proof being the context...

Rev 3:18 "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see."

Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad."

The only way someone can not endure to the end is that they start the race but do not finish.

1 John 3:6 "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

“Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord….
Then I will tell you plainly, “I never knew you.
Away from me, you evildoers.” Matt. 7:23

QUESTION:
Will Jesus say to some: “Depart from me. I knew you only for a while.”

Diane

This topic has hit the “headlines” a lot since I’ve been on SI. I find it odd that with so much discussion among so many knowledgeable Christians the issue isn’t settled. One always seems to find verses to support or reject either side. One would almost think that God badly blew it when inspiring the Bible writers. He failed to make this clear – and so we are here – stuck with endless debate.

Okay, so we’re not going to blame the Bible. That means the problem must be on the human side. We’re not hearing something right from God - a communication breakdown, maybe?

It may be a bit like this: You turn on a radio, and there is no sound. So you fiddle with the buttons and knobs, you whack the radio, you tweak the antenna, but still no sound. Then someone asks you the all-time embarrassing question: “Is it plugged in?” Dahhhh….

Maybe we must look beyond at the surface of the OSAS issues and go back a few steps - and see if we’re plugged in with the source of Truth – the Spirit. After all, the Spirit is certainly not going to tell some people one thing and another group the opposite.

I feel that one will never see eternal perspectives as long as he is relying on natural logic, or is blinded by misconceptions: ex: Incorrect understanding of salvation, eternity, divine sovereignty, the role of the Spirit, kingdom life, grace, works, redemption, etc.

Earlier I looked at the list of the word “know/knew” in my concordance, and now I suspect that a word study may shed light….. Christ knowing us…. We knowing God….

Here’s some questions I'm asking myself: What is the difference between the Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are sons of God (Rom. 8 ) or our own imagination telling us that we are saved? How can you tell the difference? How do trials and testings expose the difference? How does this relate with perseverance of the saints, salvation,, eternal security.

Edit: Maybe God never intended for us to know the salvation status of everybody else. Instead, we are responsible for our own spiritutal condition. And we need the Spirit to give us personal enlightenment.

God's children will never KNOW TRUE ASSURANCE without the Spirit's witness within themselves.

Shouldn't we leave the eternal destiny of others in God's hands, and occupy ourselves with KNOWING God and growing deeper in him. Then we will learn God's ways more and more - as he reveals his truth to us.

9 So we have not stopped praying for you
since we first heard about you.

We ask God to give you complete knowledge of his will
and to give you spiritual wisdom and understanding.

10 Then the way you live will always honor and please the Lord,
and your lives will produce every kind of good fruit.

All the while,
you will grow as you learn to know God better and better.

11 We also pray that you will be strengthened
with all his glorious power
so you will have all the endurance and patience you need.

May you be filled with joy,
always thanking the Father.

He has enabled you to share
in the inheritance that belongs to his people,
who live in the light.

13 For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness
and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son,
who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins. Col. 1:9 -14 NLT

Diane

Matthew 10:21-25 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

This is not saying if you don't endure to the end you won't be saved. It saying plainly that you will be persecuted just like I, Jesus am persecuted. He that endures to the end will be called the same as He was and the works He did were by Satan, that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. In enduring these same persecutions as He did I going to be our salvation. This is verifying that The Christ in you is your strength and that we are baptized into His suffering and death. Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

If God has birthed His Son in a believer, the believer will not be aborted and cast away, or God would be throwing away His own Seed.

We will suffer with Him for His names save and we will endure to the end and be saved.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

Denying Him is unbelief and salvation is not possible.

The other scriptures are the same.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved .

That, should not be in this verse. It should read: But he shall stay under, remain, undergo, bear trials, have fortitude, persevere, abide,
Etc.

"but he that shall endure 5278. hupomeno
Search for G5278 in KJVSL
upomenw hupomeno hoop-om-en'-o

from 5259 and 3306; to stay under (behind), i.e. remain; figuratively, to undergo, i.e. bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere:--abide, endure, (take) patient(-ly), suffer, tarry behind.

Leave out "that" and the understanding clearly available for those that are in Christ, by the Spirit of God, And the Spirit of Christ is not abortable.

Mark 13:13 the same: Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake : but he that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved .

In Christ: Phillip

1 John 3:6 "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins (habitually) has neither seen Him nor known Him."

This clearly says that if you live in sin, you are lost and have always been lost.

I don't think there is much of a debate here overall.

In Christ,
Kristina

Pretty simple huh; Christ in you the hope of Glory unto eternal life or Christ not in you unto eternal separation from God.

In Christ: Phillip

Thank you, Phillip!

Short sentence, but it says it all!

Be blessed,

Bea