To the sidewalk preachers

Assuming a sizeable crowd: If you spoke these words as Paul spoke them, at the end of your speaking, how many do you suppose would still be in your presence?

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace..."
Ephes. 1:1-7 (KJV)

:-D

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

Ormly wrote:
Assuming a sizeable crowd: If you spoke these words as Paul spoke them, at the end of your speaking, how many do you suppose would still be in your presence?

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, [b]to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus[/b]...

I don't really get what you are trying to say. Isn't the point of "sidewalk preaching" evangelism? You would not need to direct the words of an epistle intended for saints, to unredeened sinners, so why would you? Wouldn't it be "casting pearls before swine"?

Why would you consider them "un-redeemed" since Jesus died for that purpose? #2, Jesus said make disciples. The assumption in His words to us has to be that to whom He sends us, are redeemed. I.e., peace with God has been made by the Blood of Jesus...... and they need realize it, right?

We can also assume that the crowd will be a mix of those living for/in the hope and those who could care less. But in any event, the explanation of the matter of Christ Jesus, goes out to all.

Question for you: To whom, in the crowd, would the word be made quick?

Cornielus comes to my mind in this.

;-)

I understand what you are trying to convey, but have you ever thought for a moment that the NT was written to the church--saints---called out ones, not thoughs to who we are sent to. We go at Jesus command Matt 28: 18-20.btw--ou first responsibility is that of teachers) These people don't know thier right hand from thier left.

And how will the prospective saints know unless a preacher is sent??

;-)

They really don't. They are dead! Most only have a faint head knowledge of things they've heard from tv shows or childhood sunday school and that only in bits and pieces. Any virtue you might see in the lives of these folks is really just social norms.

I don't agree. They are not dead if their faith is in God. They are justisfied and need to hear about the one who made peace with God in their behalf.....Get my drift? Paul understood it that way.... we should also.

8-)

how do we expect people to get saved when we haven't given them the cross of Christ and taught them about the ressurrection from the dead?

The cross was already given. Our job is to reveal it to humanity. Those who look for the hope of eternal life will recieve the message of it.... and the message is more than you put forth as being all. Simple as that.

:-)

dohzman wrote:
So let me ask you, do you believe that everyone is already quickened to the word of God, every person on the whole earth?

Those who have a genuine faith in Him, can it be otherwise? cf. Rom.5.1.

They are not dead if their faith is in God
They are justisfied and need to hear about the one who made peace with God in their behalf.....Get my drift? Paul understood it that way.... we should also.

I disagree with that statement.

Any good Calvinist would.

Thier faith is dead because they have no works of righteousness.

And they also don't have knowledge of what Jesus did for them, which is your job. But works of righteous? That is a judgment call on your part. How do you know to draw that conclusion?

And I said our primary responsibility is that of a teacher, preach if you want to mince words, here's a better one if you please, we bear divine truths that can quicken the dead, is that better?
:-)

Mince words?? Please explain what you mean.

Quicken the dead? You are that kind of person? You have such intimacy and knowledge of the Father? ..... just asking

:-D :-o

Question for you: To whom, in the crowd, would the word be made quick?
Cornielus comes to my mind in this.

excellent point.

bartle

If you'll follow Jesus, bearing the cross, you'll look back and observe a thousand different ways, in a thousand different circumstances you propagated the gospel. Learn to listen intently to what the Spirit of God is saying for each circumstance, there may be times you do little more than show up and pray, or just read a gospel account, or sit quietly and observe only to have the Lord awake you in the early morning hours to pray or listen or both.

excellent point also.

eek!

Thier faith is dead because they have no works of righteousness

"works of righteousness"?

eeeek!! what meanst thou?

love, bartle

Any good Calvinist would.

whats a "Calvinist"?

Sorry for asking, but as a Jew saved by Grace, I don't know a lot of different theologies in Christendom outside of what I read in the Bible.

your bro bartle

(ps later edit) addition: also whats an
'arminianist"? I've heard that term and have no idea what it means.

dohzman wrote:

Those who have a genuine faith in Him, can it be otherwise? cf. Rom.5.1.

Are these the people we are send to preach to? or the lost?

Is the Blood of Jesus revoked because you of I do not obey? Will the lost ever hear what we have to say regarding Christ and the saving Grace of the Father. Jesus told us to go and make disciples. One doesn't make disciples of the lost. One makes disciples of the ones to whom the word of God is quickened. God already knows who they are and it is His Word that should reside in us that will do the quickening by the power of the Holy Ghost. No amount of "doing" can ever be a sustitute for "being". Intimacy rules.

Any good Calvinist would.

Sorry I'm not a calvinist. I believe that the prayers and the actions of the saints can change even the very judgements God may have planned.

You must mean that God is able to repent. I agree. He did that a time or two. However, on the basic issues of His purposes for you and I, that will never change, even in His thinking. It will us who repents.

Mince words?? Please explain what you mean.

We are sent out to teach and proclaim the gospel(as witnesses) whether you want to call it preach or teach doesn't really change the commission or the effect

That is a judgment call on your part

Christ is our righteousness, without Him we have no rightousness, period.

Tell that to God and the OT saints who He blessed because of their righteousness, like Job......Enoch.

Quicken the dead? You are that kind of person? You have such intimacy and knowledge of the Father? ..... just asking

I thought that was normal christianity,

Now we get down to heart of the matter....presumption.... and those who teach a meatless teaching.

2Co 2:14 But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place.
2Co 2:15 For we are a sweet savor of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish;
2Co 2:16 to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
2Co 2:17 For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, speak we in Christ.

Personal experience for you --- or just meaningless scripture quote?

The major difference with most who profess Christ is that they really can't believe that such a wonderful God really did such a wonderful thing for them personally so they never rise in faith to embrace what is already there for them, instead they shrink back into excuses for failure having thier consciences accuse them and rob them of the one thing we can never lose or that which we will never have denied us -- personal fellowship at the feet of Jesus. Life and its business helps our conscience and the adversary work on robing us of this joy, but it doesn't need be.

Strange this. Most hear that message every Sunday. I wonder what can be wrong that it affects its hearers who walk out the same way they walked in?

:-(

bartle wrote:

Any good Calvinist would.

whats a "Calvinist"?

Sorry for asking, but as a Jew saved by Grace, I don't know a lot of different theologies in Christendom outside of what I read in the Bible.

your bro bartle

(ps later edit) addition: also whats an
'arminianist"? I've heard that term and have no idea what it means.

Time to do a little research, My Brother. It's important, not to argue the differences but that we learn to recognize where the argument presented us, originates. Most adherents to one position or the other, lose their objectivity when discussing the scriptures. ;-)

Orm, I know you know that I wasnt trying to bait you with my "what is a calvanist" question?

I was just hoping to cut corners and get a 2 sentence answer off of you.

To be frank and without offense, I have little to no interest in studying up on all the "ism's" and "'ists" in Christendom, cause to me most of that stuff is religion

I mainly read my Bible and I love collecting and reading biographies and autobiographies about missionaries, I find them edifying and exciting, they light me up.

I try to cleave to what Jesus said about the lil kids on his lap, have the faith of a child, and the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these, hence my theology is this, twofold, I believe the Bible is the inerrant infallible Word of God, and I believe God.

maybe I'll go to wikipedia....may the Lord bless you is my prayer, bartle

Dont worry about it, I was teasing.

the word "works"...y'know....eeeeeek.

Bartle

Point by point:

My general comment is this: I believe ormly that your thinking is circular and also that you've adopted a form of universalism in your doctrine. I have no such beliefs.

Nothing of the sort. You are just overlooking some thing’s about the love of God and how He foreknows His children who will respond when His word is presented as it should be presented.

Quote:

[i]Assuming a sizeable crowd: If you spoke these words as Paul spoke them, at the end of your speaking, how many do you suppose would still be in your presence?[/i]

Paul was speaking to the church, not on some street corner to random strangers.

But some in that crowd would come to know Christ wouldn’t they? I mean you plant someone else waters and God gets the increase, correct? Isn’t that he way of it if we understand we don’t do it all? Perhaps a little reminder might be of help to illustrate this.:

[b]"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: [28] For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to *repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter."[/b] Acts 17:22-32 (KJV)

Note Paul’s words and how he includes them in what he is stating, though they not fully understand. Note also how there was division. Some desired to hear more while others mocked him. Why was that except his words were made quick to some who lived with a hope. While others..?

* change direction

Quote:

[i]The assumption in His words to us has to be that to whom He sends us, are redeemed. I.e., peace with God has been made by the Blood of Jesus...... and they need realize it, right?[/i]

that is just out and out foolishness. Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: I could go on but its pointless, you don't believe. I have that from the Lord.

Indeed, John 3.16 and it would be pointless to go on if you can’t rightly divide God’s word and make distinctions as to what Jesus did and who Paul is speaking to, who are indeed not ones on a street corner [children] but ones who have tasted of the good things of God unto son-ship.
“You are son’s…” connotes a finished product in Christ. They, Galatians - Romans, aren’t there yet but because of the new birth experience, have undertaken the process of becoming that which God has purposed [b] from the beginning [/b]

Need more on this?

[b]But as many as received him, to them gave he power [u]to become the sons[/u] of God, even to them that believe on his name[/b] John 1:12 (KJV)

Quote:

[i]I don't agree. They are not dead if their faith is in God. They are justified and need to hear about the one who made peace with God in their behalf.....Get my drift? Paul understood it that way.... we should also[/i]

While your comment sounds well enough , your context is out of order, a christian will embrace another christian and should be in some sort of gathering of the saints, in that case we encourage one another, your context for this discussion is the street meeting - witnessing areana, the highways and by ways.

Indeed, and how do you believe a congregation begins if not with folk who never heard of God’s saving grace and are brought in to be discipled? All of it has a beginning somewhere in the minds of men and for those who live with a hope of God, convertin them, saving them, and when hearing of Jesus Christ, respond and enter. “Go and make disciples”, Jesus said.

Quote:
[i]The cross was already given. Our job is to reveal it to humanity. Those who look for the hope of eternal life will receive the message of it.... and the message is more than you put forth as being all. Simple as that.[/i]

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.

I doubt if that scripture will be suffcient in and of itself for you. While the "MEAT" of God as you refered is whats needed, I also fear that the simplicity of the gospel is being lost, and that is where the power of God is and is where salvation can be found for the lost, and yes it is that simple

Correct, it is insufficient ---- and totally out of context, implying something that is not in my reply.

We are speaking of presenting Jesus Christ not just as Savior but as Lord and what God has for the one who can see himself in relationship with Him as Paul speaks of and as Jesus spoke of for 3-1/2 years.

Quote:

[i]One doesn't make disciples of the lost[/i]

better tell Jesus that one. He came to seek and to save that which was lost.

Why of course, foolish of me, why didn’t I see that? ----- BTW, are you implying that “lost” means “damned”? If not then I must conclude there will be those in the mix who will respond because they will recognize their need or desire to belong.

Try reading the whole passage and pray for a better perspective of it. Here is part of it:

[b]Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. [11] For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.[/b] Matthew 18:10-11 (KJV)

I submit to you that there are many yet to hear of Jesus Christ that fall into the category of, “His sheep”. They just don’t know it yet. That’s where you and I come into play.

Quote:

[i]Tell that to God and the OT saints who He blessed because of their righteousness, like Job......Enoch.[/i]

These OT saints walked by faith looking forward to the day....Read Hebrews, come on, your reasoning can't be that doctrinally off.

And what faith is that since Jesus Christ is not yet come in whom to place it? Think. And also, you mean my Yak shepherd friend up in Siberia, who never heard of Jesus Christ, who looks up at the stars every night believing God’s handiwork to be of Him, who lives with that revelation, is damned? You ready to say that?

Quote:

Now we get down to heart of the matter....presumption.... and those who teach a meatless teaching.

I could lower the cannons here and blaze away but I'll show some restraint. Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.

[b]”But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. [u]But he who is spiritual appraises all things[u], yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ”.[/b] 1 Cor. 2:14-16 (NASB-U)

To presume is to act upon an assumption. There is much of that in religion.

Quote:

[i]Personal experience for you --- or just meaningless scripture quote?[/i]

When we compare ourselves by ourselves we are unwise, but if you must know , I live, eat breath and think Jesus 24/7, as has been the manner of my life for most of my 20 plus years of my salvation experience.

I don’t need to know your spiritual age. But since you mentioned it I will tell you I have three times that many years in Him. I only wish I knew in my first twenty what I presently know….But then I probably wouldn’t be here at my desk at 3 o’clock in the morning drinking my last of coffee, typing this reply to you. God has His ways. His foreknowledge and predestination is a constant amazement to me.

Quote:

[i]Strange this. Most hear that message every Sunday. I wonder what can be wrong that it affects its hearers who walk out the same way they walked in?[/i]

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
It's a faith walk, always has been, now I could speak on things that affect our faith and the ability to exercise such, but this is enough for now.

:-o

Ormly, I respect you and your age in the Lord. However I have to convey to you as exhorting a father that you often speak in a "hyper yoda, fortune cookie, questioning way", which is more confusing to many of us than helpful. Often it makes me not want to bother trying to talk about basic issue's with you.

I have told you before that I understand and appreciate some of what you say. But if you can try and use more common simpler terms and words it would be helpfull.
I am reminded of John Wesely when he first went to preach in the feild. The hearer's couldn't understand him. He had to learn to speek in more simpler terms.

Another is Hank h. the bible answer man. He often will use "big" words and sentences to put forth his answers. Yet when listening it is to high up in the verbal clouds.
Lastly Walter Martin said that theologions need to learn to get the hey out of the loft and down on the barn floor so the cows can eat it.

I do not mean to be disrespectful.

Now having said that can you tell me what answer you were looking for when you asked:

"Assuming a sizeable crowd: If you spoke these words as Paul spoke them, at the end of your speaking, how many do you suppose would still be in your presence?

God bless, John

I'll be happy to, John.

BTW, what I say is intended to excerise the thinking process. There must be a dictionary around just in case of a word or two that needs defining. I have to use one..alot. Words mean something and when I learn them, new vistas open up to my understanding.

In another thread the word "lost" has become an issue. Does it mean "damned" or just plain, "lost"? Check out the dictionary.

Is a sinner damned when lost or just needs to be found that he can change direction? I say it depends or whether or not he is a reprobate or one who could be sincerely tender towards God if the preacher was anointed of God.

However,

#1. Put yourself in the crowd both as a rebel/reprobate and then as seeker [elect] of something from someone's life that will satisfy the longing within you. Is that so difficult to grasp? Surely the crowd in the street will be a mix? Now, using Paul's presentation and anointing, and not some novice off the wall "hellfire and brimstone" catarwallorin, how well do you think it would be received? Are percentages our business in this?

Thanks for your words I"ll try to tone it down.

8-)

Thank you for your patient response.
I can only speak for myself on this question not for other street preachers.

The crowd to me will always be a mix.Therefore I follow the leading of the Holy Ghost and what the Lord has taught me so far. I preach the "whole counsel of God",and The "goodness and severity of the Lord." So Lord willing it will touch all of the "mix". Then sometimes a person interupts with a question. Sometimes I will answer it emmediatly, other times I have said. I will answer your question just let me finish this point.Though imperfect I strive to treat them with respect. Most of them have good reasonable questions that deserve an honest answer.

Your first point/question of damned or just needing to be found. The first of many scriptures that comes to mind is John 3:36 the wrath of God abides upon them. So they are dammed unless they repent and are born again or saved. I could just as easily start my witnessing/preaching with John 3:16 as I could with a classic, "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".

Another dynamic that happens is the rotating crowd. Some would say well if your crowd is rotating then your not annointed to hold them. Well maybe so. However when I have had the rotating crowd or walking by crowd I will cycle through the whole counsel of God. Sin rightousnes and judgement, repentence faith and the cross. Now if you were to come up and here me preaching in the middle you may think hey this brother needs to preach the cross not repentence. Well everything in it's time.
Lord bless, John

dohzman wrote:
My trip to Gerogia has been delayed so I can resume.

let me re-cap--you started out by implication in the book of Eph. where Paul is speaking to saints

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus

you than asked a question:

how many do you suppose would still be in your presence?

the answer is simple---all. Now in a street context Paul wouldn't have made that statement, i.e.>>Mars hill sermon where he reasoned with them, two different scenarios entirely.

In Ephesians, Paul is writing to those AFTER the fact. On Mars Hill, he is seeking to invite, “to become”. Obviously he succeeded inasmuch as some responded.
So what was his message on Mars Hill that cannot be replicated today by disposition; intimacy with God for correct understanding His intent of the new birth experience? Certainly it goes beyond salvation by the Blood of Jesus into a deeper realm of knowledge/relationship?

The assumption in His words to us has to be that to whom He sends us, are redeemed. I.e., peace with God has been made by the Blood of Jesus...... and they need realize it, right?

that is just out and out foolishness. Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: I could go on but its pointless, you don't believe. I have that from the Lord.

to which u responded kinda off the wall. Your original comment was that we were to somehow enlighten those to whom we were sent as to their sonship,………….

Intended son-ship .....and the foreknowledge of God.

Peace with God has been made, by the “Blood of the Lamb”, on their behalf and intended son-ship needs to be explained. How else will they know except a Preacher, worth his salt, explain it? Does not this message take it to the conclusion Christ intends it to be taken? If as we say, we have nothing to do with our salvation: Jesus did it all, then believe it! He did do it all and those who have in faith God will receive that message with gladness, the wicked , in the mix, won’t. The believers of/in God will hopefully, if explained properly, come to have His Life indwell them and come to know and follow Him unto son-ship.

Jesus said, “Make disciples” ……. NOT go and get people saved.

……..my comment was simply this, God not man, does the work and those to whom God has touched doesn't really need us to tell them that they have been born of His Spirit, They'll know, John the Apostle said Little children...etc... if you just read the little children portions it is very insightful to the newbirth experience.

Yes……and? Where have I violated John, in your estimation? However, you are saying one must be born again to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches that contextually however it is alluding to overcoming and not salvation as you suppose.

And what faith is that since Jesus Christ is not yet come in whom to place it?

their faith looked forward to the messiah to come, our looks back to the messiah already come. The Cross and Resurrection is the center piece for all of mankind --eternity past , present and future.

Tell that to those with faith in God who have had no Preacher to explain it. Is their faith misplaced? Are they damned? Does not the Blood of Jesus cleanse them of Adam’s sin stain? [b]“Jesus said unto them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains”[/b]. John 9:41 (KJV)

Now this statement you made pertaining your "yak" friend reminds me of the theologians I run into on the streets, they take an obscure 1 in a million example, take it to its extremes either right or left(liberal or conservative) and base an argument on that. The news media does the same. I like what God says: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Your scripture presumes on my Yak friends knowledge or rather lack of it, concerning Christ. Does his lack damn him? You need to read “Bruchco”; the biography of missionary Bruce Olsen to the Montalone Indians in SA. It will open the eyes of anyone concerned with this topic of conversation.

Most people will do as you do-- they base their interpretation of scripture on Paul's writings, it's always best to start with the foundation (God's very Words spoken by very God-Jesus Christ)and work up from there.

Now you are presuming on me. You must show me my violations.

Now as to your YAK friend? I'm not a judge, God is sovereign,

Why of course. Why didn’t I think of that? God does read the hearts of men, doesn’t He?

btw have your ever read the book called, "Eternity in thier Hearts"? Very insightful, it tells how God and the redemption story was heard by remote people groups and when missionaries arrived these tribes--people groups had already heard and had some knowledge.

What have I been trying to get across to you??…………….. “Bruchco”

God is not only love---which means he conditions everything He does with Love, He is also JUST. there's only one door into heaven, his name is Jesus.

[b]“ Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for [EVERYONES, regardless] sins.”[/b] 1 John 4:10 (KJV)

*[ ] emphasis mine

There! That takes care of my Yak Shepherd friend! Now if only he had had a Preacher to bring him into the born again experience, who knows who else in Siberia, would have been influenced by him for Christ?

It will be found in time and eternity that God Loved those who died and went to hell every bit as much as those who lived and went to heaven.

Indeed, except for Esau, eh?

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.” John 10:16 (NASB-)

whose voice did the other sheep hear? To say that they came to God any other way but by Jesus Christ is just out and out error

Who are the other sheep??

And, you have already answered that for yourself, above. Do you adhere to the thinking that those who recognize God and live by convictions that testify to their revelation of Him, are damned unless they know of Jesus? However, [b]”In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”[/b] John 1:4-5 (KJV)

OT or NT there is no other way, now their understanding may not be as complete but, one plan, one way, one entrance into the presence of God, that's why even in the OT tabernacle there was only one entrance to the holy of holies, and even at that the tabernacle lays out to form a cross (the furniture). We all come to God by way of the cross. I could go but I think you get the point.

No. We come by having faith in God. Now if you wish to explain Christ to me as the reason I have faith in God then explain why and for what reason. Here let me help:“No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44 (KJV)

My Yak friend was greatly affected by the night sky

'Thats a cute touchy feely example but it has no bearing on the reality of how God works in the conscience of man'

I beg your pardon? In light of the above scripture?

'who's seeking to know what his/her genuine purpose in life is. Something to ponder'

Only if a Preacher explains it. Know any who can? And I don’t mean Rick Warren.

Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

God is sovereign, Jesus the Author and Finisher of our Faith....

There’s that word “sovereign”, again.

#1. Job doesn’t begin to fit what we are into here.

#2. RE: God’s sovereignty. If you believe Jesus is the only way then God’s sovereignty can’t fit into that which you wish me to believe.
8-)

The main point is than this. Paul in Ephesians was addressing the church. Probably through an oral reading of his letter, he being absent, at several house churches scattered throughout that great city/region. Marshill was an open forum and he probably had more than one oppurtunity to speak there.
Here's where you and I part ways, you say that before he even opens his mouth to speak there are saved individuals there who have never heard and just need further instruction or better knowledge? I don't, at least not amoung those who are hearing the gospel for the first time.

Though what you falsely attribute to me as my understanding, let me clarify. "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and [b]instruction.[/b]" 2 Tim. 4:2 (NASB-U)

And I stand by that.

You come on the scene and presumptuously believe you are doing the planting and with some you may well be. However, within the mix may well be those who only need to be watered. Think about it.

8-)

dohzman wrote:
tell me what is the difference between planting and watering?

One happens before the other. 8-)

So are you the one or the other? --- or is that something we need determine when we preach?

dohzman wrote:
I beleive the context was over those who were being saved (bragging right ya know- who gets the credit or notch on thier belt) and gathered into the church, or body of believers, Paul was simply saying that it doesn't matter who did what but it was God who gave the increase. That's all. You can read more into it but I love simplicity, I'll stick with the text. :-)

That's good. I like sticking to the the text. Better, I like understanding it. i.e., one [whoever that may be] plants. The other, [whoever that may be] waters. Few ever come to repentance until they come ready to repent. And you think you are going to do it in one sitting? What kind of repentance would that be except the stirring of one's emotions. These are the one's who re-dedicate their lives every Sunday when what they need is a true revelation of Jesus. That's where you and I are supposed to come into play. Today we have rock bands and Mr.Dialogue from the corporate world who are invited in to aid in the planting and watering. The increase here is also predictable both of quantity and quality.

:-(

dohzman wrote:

Today we have rock bands and Mr.Dialogue from the corporate world who are invited in to aid in the planting and watering. The increase here is also predictable both of quantity and quality

I'm sad to say you're right on here. Most of my schedule has been replaced by christian ministries that offer more of a musical platform or that operates more as a para-ministery specializing in a specific field. The same is true with most of the evangelists I know of. Usually money management or something of that sort. As an evangelist I now have been told in many places I shouldn't (some say can't) preach the blood of Jesus and in most churches pastors won't let you speak in the AM service because they are afraid you might offend some people and they are afraid the people will leave that local fellowship, and they need every dollar that each person brings in :-o . I have personally just started working a part time job again in order to not be dependent upon the offerings of any church where I might speak. Many if not most of the evangelists I know are now taking on churches of thier own because its very difficult to find meetings these days. I believe we all evangelize but it takes a special kind of person to be a pastor and to be honest, most evangelist just don't fit the bill. For me I'm shifting gears and taking the Word of God back to the streets. Trouble is I see the church meetings (people) as every bit as needy as the streets I used to preach on, the same streets I now return back to :-(

Yes, I'm pretty much in the same boat. Living in N.Carolina with literally, what would seem, a church on every corner in my area, one would think there is no problem. Except to wonder why so many churches on so many corners. Visit them once. That will be enough for the serious seeker speaking of the things we speak of. More profitable Spiritually for one to stay on SI.

I have been asked on numerous occasions what church I call home. I'm embarassed to answer, none. I teach evey week at a retirement community. They eagerly wait at the door for me fearing I won't show even though I always come early. Those dear ones sit as I go on for an hour without stopping. No music, just lecture. Its the fastest hour ever. I confess I don't know what the Lord is doing other than allowing to me have influence whereby they receive some of what I have to give them and I pray the Lord give me what they need to hear. I don't use notes. Twice a month I dine with them and that to, has been a blessing for me. I sense a tremendous responsibility in what I do and God alone knows the outcome.

In my estimation the mega church style is having it's way right now and producing tares in its wake. Rock music and rap-hip-hop. The desecration of the alter by leadership who dress like they are on a picnic at the beach is frightening after you get over the sickening feeling. . If still in doubt, speak passionately of Jesus and intimacy with God and see where the conversation goes. Their reading assignments are from specially prepared books promoting the socio-theology theme devoid of the significance of the Blood and redemption. I have since left all that after seeing it in the true light of the cross.

Frightening, this. Who one can walk with in Christ, as we discuss Him, is a bigger problem than we suppose. There are only a few who speak of His love and fewer than that who ask how can I love Him more?

I'm rabbling. I'll stop.

:-(

Had a great day yesterday with my crowd. How 'bout you?

Where were we in this discussion? Are we for it or against it? :-?8-):-D