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Kim "Nuke" il?

I
IRONMAN

i don't think that this has escaped anyone's attention but it seems things are escalating...

Kim Jong-il has now done what the Iranian mullahs are still a few years from accomplishing and what Saddam Hussein never came close to pulling off. He has apparently exploded an atom bomb. He probably can't yet pack a nuke into the nose cone of a missile or drop one from a plane. But as the term is generally (and aptly) defined, North Korea is now a nuclear-armed power. What's the rest of the world going to do about it?

from slate on msn.com

The "international community" has a chance to behave as if the term were more than a polite or ironic euphemism. If there's a single national leader in the world who likes this new development, he hasn't said so. The U.N. Security Council quickly voted 13-0 to condemn the nuclear test. Several nonmembers have joined in the criticism. Now all we need is a next step—action.

This is nothing to shrug off. The combination of Kim Jong-il and a nuclear arsenal is a nightmare. It doesn't mean he's going to fire A-bombs at the United States or, for that matter, at South Korea or Japan. Kim may be a monster, but he's not suicidal; his top priority is the survival of his regime, and he must know that a nuclear attack would be followed by obliterating retaliation.

But what nuclear weapons do provide is cover for lesser sorts of aggression. The "club" of nuclear nations is a sort of mafia. The bomb provides protection, and thus a certain swagger, whether the other club members like it or not.

It doesn't take more than a handful of nukes to become a "made man" in this club. If Saddam Hussein had possessed some nukes in 1990, before he invaded Kuwait, it is doubtful that the U.S.-led coalition (and that really was a coalition) would have mobilized armed forces to push his troops back. If Mao Zedong had not possessed an atomic arsenal in 1969, during intense border clashes with the Soviet Union, it is likely that Leonid Brezhnev would have mounted an invasion. More to the point, without the nukes, Mao wouldn't have had the nerve to trigger the border clashes to begin with.

Kim Jong-il—like his father, Kim Il-Sung, before him—has kept his tiny, impoverished country afloat all these decades precisely by stirring up trouble and provoking confrontation (to justify his totalitarian rule), then playing his bigger neighbors off one another (to keep the tensions from spinning out of control and into his borders). His quest for nukes was propelled by a desire for the ultimate protection, mainly against an American attack. But now that he has them, he can be expected to play his games of chicken more feistily—and with still more opportunities for miscalculation.

Sunday's nuclear test has four other potential, dreadful consequences.

First, Kim Jong-il could churn out more bombs and sell at least some of them to the highest bidders. North Korea is dreadfully short of resources; his scheme to counterfeit American money has run into roadblocks; nukes might be his new cash cow. During the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, President Bush rallied domestic support by invoking the image of Saddam Hussein selling A-bombs to al-Qaida. It was a highly improbable scenario; even if Saddam had been building A-bombs, he would almost certainly have kept them under tight control. Kim, on the other hand, is a guerrilla-anarchist; he maintains his power not by trying to shape, or seek greater influence in, the international system but rather by throwing the system into a shambles. He's much less likely to have qualms about trading bombs for hard currency, regardless of the customer.

The second possible consequence of a nuclear North Korea is the unleashing of a serious regional arms race. The Japanese have long had the technical know-how and the stash of plutonium to build atomic (or possibly even hydrogen) bombs. They've foresworn that route because of moral qualms stemming from their own militarism in World War II. They also cite their security arrangement with the United States. But it's an open question how long these 60-year-old qualms would endure in the face of a clear and present danger. Just last month, a Japanese think tank run by former Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone published a study calling on the nation to "consider the nuclear option." North Korea's nuclear test can only fuel these temptations.

If Japan goes nuclear, the Chinese might decide that it's in their security interests to resume nuclear testing. China's moves could incite India to accelerate its nuclear program, which would almost certainly compel Pakistan to match that effort. The South Koreans, meanwhile, might feel they need their own bomb to deter any crazy ideas from their northern neighbor, which could push the cycle into still higher gear.

Third, it's a fair bet that the Iranians will be closely watching the coming weeks' events. If the world lets tiny, miscreant, destitute North Korea—the freaking Hermit Kingdom—get away with testing a nuke, then who will stop the oil-rich, leverage-loaded, modern-day Persian Empire from treading the same road?

For many reasons, then, the world's major powers and organizations—if they have any capacity for coordinated action—must take actions to punish Kim Jong-il for what he has done, not to pound him with airstrikes (for better or worse, an impractical option), but to make his regime suffer in all other ways, to let those around him know that his actions are the cause of their suffering.

However, this leads to a fourth risky scenario that Sunday's test has set in motion: the danger of escalation and war.

A plan of economic pressure or sanctions depends crucially on cooperation from China. Without Chinese food, fuel, and other forms of aid, Kim Jong-il's regime would soon crumble. And that's the problem: The Chinese don't want the regime to crumble, for their own security reasons. It's a delicate matter to punish Kim just enough to affect his actions but not enough to trigger his downfall. The question is whether pressure from other countries—or the Chinese leaders' own anger at Kim's defiance of their warnings not to test—will lead them to walk this line and decide whether such a balancing act is possible.

It may well be that, back in 2003, the Chinese took the lead in creating a diplomatic forum to solve the North Korean nuclear crisis because they thought the Bush administration was about to order a military strike. They relaxed their sense of urgency once they realized a strike wasn't imminent after all. (This theory is held not only by White House hawks but also by many outside specialists who have pushed for direct negotiations between Washington and Pyongyang.)

It is therefore conceivable that, in light of Sunday's test, some White House officials are proposing, once again, to send signals of impending military action against North Korea—if just to unnerve Beijing into going along with sanctions. The danger, of course, is that such stratagems can spiral out of control: Signals can be misread, threats can escalate to gunshots.

The current predicament is the outcome of three missteps: a major strategic blunder by President Bush (who refused to negotiate with the North Koreans when they were practically begging for talks and their course was still easily reversible); an only slightly less gigantic blunder by Chinese President Hu Jintao (who thought he could bring the North Koreans in line with minimal arm-twisting); and severe miscalculations, from start to finish, by Kim Jong-il (who thought Washington would have leapt at negotiations by now and who, apparently, didn't think his nuclear test would cause quite such excitement).

So, here we are. The two major powers in this confrontation are led by blunderers; the provocateur is a chronic miscalculator. It doesn't look good.

S
sermonindex

Iron,

I think they failed, I'll tell you why: based on seismic reading of 4.0 to 3.6, I read the yield was somewhere between 550 tons to 1,000 tons of TNT, which makes it a 1 KT yield bomb, at best.

in context, the bomb used at Hiroshima had a 20kt yield.....

I think two things could have happened, one , is that they set off a coventional underground mimic explosion, just to rattle some cages.

the other theory I believe more strongly is that they were using an implosion device, which are concentric circular explosive lenses, around the core. These lenses have to explode togther to implode the nuclear material, which then reacts and explodes. Here's the key, the lenses have to explode simultaenously, not even a millisecond of deviation, and thats the part that failed, which acccounts for some sort of bang, albiet a sub kiloton bang...550 to 1,000 tons. That would have been the explosive force of the conventional lenses surrounding the core if they were looking for a weapon with a 20 to 50 kt yield.


wanna hear a little factoid? I had a bud, who was a B-52 bombadier, strategic, read nuclear, and he told me, in our nuclear weaponry we have the ability to dial up or dial down the yield...meaning before you arm the weapon, you can program it to yield 100kt or 500kt, whatever the mission would require and praise God, that so far, we haven't had to use these weapons.

yet.

and as you might know, our subs have "city-busters", where you have throw weights of 1 to 5 megatons.

See what happens when man has science as their "god"?

Its all so clear, aint it?

D
Deany1980

Christians perish slowly in North Korean death camps, the likes of which we remember from the horrors of Nazi Germany. The once known "Jerusalem of the Orient" is now a horror house for Christians who are secretly there today.

Unknown numbers of secret Christians, unknown numbers of Bibles needed, unknown numbers escaping into China to be picked up by sex traders, slave traders of Christians who will help them seek asylum outside of China (China sends them back to North Korea to face death, or worse, the death camps).

The extreme poverty in North Korea, fathers severing their own arm to feet their children - as sons of the living God, it's time not to use military - it's time by life or by death to go in with the Gospel.

S
sermonindex

there's hope

here's the website of some pretty sold out to Jesus, on fire prayer warriors and missonaries

http://www.nkmissions.com/

I
IRONMAN

bro Bartle
how much did the first such test done under J. Robert Oppenheimer yield?

i suppose that if they have failed, they will keep working to perfect their weapons?

either way things are coming to a head and we ought not be found lacking in Faith or Good works.

S
sermonindex

I think the Trinity test in NM yielded 15 to 20 kt, but they were working on two types of triggers , one was a "gun barrel", which shot a load into the core, this was the Hiroshima bomb and the other the "implosion device" was the Nagasaki bomb and both yields were around 20 kt.

I'm not certain what trigger was tested at Trinity, I think it was the implosion trigger.

You see they worked very hard to coordinate the simultaenous dentonation of the lenses and had many failures, circa 1944.....and you see , these were some of the finest physicists and scientists all together in New Mexico, many of them refugee Jews who Hitler chased out of Germany. So there was a base of knowledge to operate from, meaning it would be like gathering Julia Childs, Emeril, and other world class chefs together with unlimited resources to make a meal, which they did.

Now in North Korean, intellectual freedom is very limited, so its the equivelant of gathering a bunch of short order chefs to make a fine French haute cuisine meal...ya get me?


and when you start talking in terms of microsecond, or millisecond plus minus tolerances in crafting DELIVERABLE nuclear weaponry, they failed, I know it.

they don't have 6 to 8 nuclear weapons, they have 6 to 8 big pieces of metal.

They probably have a "cookbook", provided by the Paki scientist Khan, who's under "house arrest" in Islamabad, thats a joke, and they probably "bought" a handful of ex-soviet scientists, but this just added to the mess, given traditional reflexive North Korean fear and distrust of outsiders, not to mention the language barrier.

they failed, but they are still VERY VERY dangerous foes. A million man army, well trained and hard, with a terrain that is murder on armor, and perfect for defense, not to mention the fact that every strategic asset the NK's possess is DEEP underground. They have 4,000 plus arty pieces near the DMZ, they wouldn't blink a eye to use chemical and bio rounds in these artillery pieces.

I think their special forces alone is somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 men, which they would insert deep into South Korea, which is intensely vulnerable, because the ROK has only ONE main north-south highway in the west and in the northeast of South Korea is a pretty rugged mountain range, with a two lane coastal highway to the east. So if they cut off the main highway in the center, (I won't say where, but I know where I would do it, if I was an NK general) they could isolate Seoul and the north half of South Korea.

The NK objective to the attack would be to be in Pusan in two to three weeks, before the Americans could react, and we really couldn't react IN DEPTH, because we are stretched that thin.

Could the ROK forces defend South Korea?

I don't know, they have 600,000 men under arms, and they're good, Koreans are tough brother. But if the NK's did a lot of rear area Spec forces insertions, and cut the country in two, they would prevail.

One thing in our favor, we would own the air in two weeks, and thats crucial.

It could be a replay of 1950-53, but much much more uglier.

Only God knows, but the President was correct in his assessment of the "Axis of Evil", "Iraq, Iran and North Korea".

strange days ahead bro.

The reason I'm conversant in all this is two fold, I was in the Navy at 17 in South Korea, and I've made a study of nuclear weaponry and nuclear warfighting.

I just gave away 30 boxes of books, most of all that stuff, kept 10 boxes, books on the faith, and other secular books I like. I belong to Jesus now, not Caesar...lol

much love, bartle

I
IRONMAN

hey bro Bartle
interesting stuff...the North Koreans certainly wouldn't have a problem pouring it on seoul especially with all those artillery pieces at the dmz. if i remember right there is a presence of about 37,000 us troops there on the dmz, it makes me wonder what kinda heat they're packing since they are so few in number compared to the 800 lb gorilla on the other side...

Lord have your way

C
Compton

Gentlemen, if I may...let me suggest a possible resolution to this crisis. As a citizen of Columbus Ohio, I think the UN should send in the Ohio State Buckeyes! They can not be defeated!

The landing craft would hit the beach of N. Korea, the metal gate drop would drop down and the first wave of attack would be the marching band...then the Buckeyes would burst out through a paper banner.

The sight of of the best offensive line in the world would be enough to make Kim Il's hair stand on edge. Oh wait...

Go Bucks!

MC

S
sermonindex

from what i understand we removed almost all our guys from the DMZ to more rear positions, I think this happened about a year or two ago....

and its basically one infantry div we have there, I think its the 2nd, the other personnel are AF, and various Army and Navy support in country.....its a great country too.

ya ever been in a Korean prayer meeting?

Wheeeew! talk about tears of repentance and crying out to the Lord, its intense, there are some some really sold out to Jesus believers there AND in L.A.

want another factoid? guess the country that sends the second most number of missionaries into the world? America is first, and South Korea is a close close second?

and people wonder why South Korea went from being a ravaged wrecked smoking hulk of a nation to being a jewel in a half a century.

God is good.

B
boomatt

Compton is right, but I think that we should send Madalin Albright in with a signed basketball from Michael Jordan to help scare Kim. OOOPPPSSS.... wait, that already happened.

In all seriousness though, this is a touchy topic. We are kind of darned if we do, darned if we don't situation. However, Voice of the Martyr's came to my church last night and a lady, who was a missionary to China was there. And she told us about all of the problems that the North Korean Christians are having with persecution. Lets just say I left the church in tears for my brothers and sisters in christ that live in North Korea.

I might be a little off topic, but I think thats fine.

Oh, and Bartle, thanks for your expertise on the subject of nuclear weapons, do you know anywhere that I can get a large overview of the nuclear program in general? Very interesting stuff...

God Bless.

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike
you're a trip! i was in austin the day of the big Ut OSU game. people were saying about our buckeyes "when we're done with them they'll be blackeyes" of course for me i couldn't lose, i'm a fan of both teams!

go bucks indeed!!!

S
sermonindex

I just unpacked the 10 boxes of books here, and I did save two, one is called "Nuclear Battlefields", its kind of dated, 1985 copyright, but its good, though it reflects a cold war strategic posture.

I just went to Amazon, and they have copies of it: its entitled :

The Nuclear Battlefields: Global Links in the Arms Race.

in my search I just saw another book that you might like, IF, you're into defense infrastructure and it's by the same author, Wliiam Arkin, called "Code Names: Deciphering U.S. Military Plans, Programs and Operations in the 9/11 World"

I'm really surprised this book saw the light of day, in fact I read it so infuriated Secty Rumsfeld that he vetted a 1,000 personnel to find out who is leaking this stuff, But the more I ponder this, its HELPFUL to us, and I'll tell you why: It puts the islamo-fascists on notice that though they may believe America is a nation of softies, it shows them that we DO have guys "on the wall", and that they are NOT dealing with a bunch of soft indulgent "infidels". The book might give code names and programs, but they will never know from what direction disaster is going to befall them next.

Please forgive me: I know this stuff is all the "business of Caesar", not of Christ, but the way I feel about it is this: man, in worshipping the god of science has sealed his fate, our fate.

God made the sun, which brings us light, and we grow our crops, and warm ourselves and enjoy this light that is our sun. Man, us, we , you, me, have tried to mimic that power, and we crafted weapons that for a brief moment unleash this power, and this will be the doom that John Zeebedee saw in Revelations. Mark my words, and it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots, but there will come a day, when many many nations possess nuclear weaponry, combine that with an overcrowded world, shrinking resources and a depraved fallen nature given to violence and greed, and watch out, these weapons will be used with impunity.

Am I without hope?

not at all, I rest in Christ and on the Word, the Logos, there's no fear, as you well know dear brother.

also, theres another book, Dark Sun by Richard Rhodes on the making of the hydrogen bomb, its thick, detailed, but good.

May God bless you is my prayer today, bartle

C
Compton

i'm a fan of both teams!

I'm mostly a fan when they are winning.8-)

Thanks for laughing at my lame humor. :lol: Someone was telling me today that they know me as someone who can always bring laughter to hard situations ...I was touched by that.

Although I try to limit that side of my personality from my posts because I'm trying hard to cultivate my image of a miserable carking sin hound, inconsolable over the sorry state of everyone else's spiritual condition. :knockedout:

However brother, if ever you can make it back to Ohio for a visit, we'll share the joy of the Lord with each other! (And perhaps a couple cups of quality coffee...)

MC

S
sermonindex


Gentlemen, if I may...let me suggest a possible resolution to this crisis. As a citizen of Columbus Ohio, I think the UN should send in the Ohio State Buckeyes! They can not be defeated!

Ha. You Buckeys... I can't even go on a Christian website without you chatting my ear off about your football team... :)

I am not a huge footbal fan, but I feel obligated to retort, on behalf of everyone I know within a 10 mile radius, that perhaps the UN should send a more competent team, such as the Michigan Wolverines.

Go Blue.

-K DAY

C
Compton

I can't even go on a Christian website without you chatting my ear off about your football team

:-P K Day, there is actually a spiritual truth at work here...for everything there is a season; a time to mourn and a time to gloat.:-D

MC

S
sermonindex

there's only two words in football worth saying:

GO BEARS!!!

Chicago Bears.


nuff said and I rest my case.

and also God bless you all is my prayer, fervent.

bartle of Chicago

S
sermonindex

For relevant info on surviving a nuclear attack check out this article

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51648

God bless, John oh by the way Bartle Happy Bday to the Navy

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike

I'm mostly a fan when they are winning.

i guess that's true of fans of many different football teams, except the dallas cowboys...can't tell you how many times i've heard "this is our year" :-P

bro mike you may not remember this, and i think i have what you wrote somewhere, but you posted something you titled "you can't touch this..."and that was so funny to me, you were funny after that!

and when i get to come out that way we should most definately hang out. that coffee wouldn't be from starbucks would it? i heard they're everywhere... :-P

I
IRONMAN

hey K-day
i remember 2 years in a row schools from michigan blemished our record *sob* but i must say that u.m. OSU rivalry is a good one...perhaps topped only by the u.m. msu one. my wife went to msu for a while and she told me one year you hooligans from ann arbor came down and did a drive by on sparty with paintball guns...leaving him blue and maize... :-P since then apparently there is a group dedicated to thwarting a reccurance of this so they spend the night camped around sparty, taking watch to guard him...

I
IRONMAN

bro mike

K Day, there is actually a spiritual truth at work here...for everything there is a season; a time to mourn and a time to gloat.

hey i knew you were funny all the time! i guess we have a similar sense of humour!

I
IRONMAN

bro Bartle
had almost forgotten chi-town had a team... :-P

S
sermonindex

Thanks for the link up to that article.

What I'm about to write, has nothing to do with you, or do I mean it in any way that would insult you, because I love you as brother and believe me, I am VERY thankful for all the guys and girls "on the wall". You all are my heroes.

That said, that article is why World Net Daily is not on my bookmarks list.

Its not well thought out and it has agenda, meaning the guy is talking about stuff he doesn't fully grasp, and he's selling key chains on the website, supposed radiological detectors. I'd have more confidence in some ground up gyspum in a coffee can with a aluminium foil strip. (homemade geiger counter)

He starts the article by ranting about the "defeatists" during the cold war standoff...do you know why we didnt engage in a robust civil defense program? during that time period, 62 to 89?

Number one, in that kind of conflict, Soviet versus US nuclear exchange the throw weight, the amount of MEGAtonnnage thrown at each other would have been insane, we would have been talking about vast portions of the grain belt, completely irradiated. Once you start a nuclear exchange, superpower to superpower, lets say three tactical weapons, 50 kiltotons used to stop a Warsaw pact invasion of NATO, what would be next? The Soviets would have been in a "use or lose it" wiggy frame of mind, so they decide to take out our Minuteman fields in the North and Missouri...not city centers yet. Norad would pick up these tracks, and then we get wiggy, we decide, and at this point decisions are being made by men in fear, REAL fear, so we decide to throw one 3 megaton citybuster at Kiev, and it would go on and on.

okay, we know all that, we've seen the movies, heard the discussions, but did you know that in Dec 61, President Kennedy asked the Joint Chiefs to draw up a first strike bolt of the blue nuclear attack on the Soviets, a just in case kind of first look. You don't think, thru their moles and spys they picked up on this?

Next thing you know, they're looking at our Jupiter nukes in Turkey, right on their southern border, and they hear Kennedy has asked for a first strike plan, and then we have the Soviets working double time to insert nuclear weapons into Cuba. Cuba was a defensive move on their part, they got scared, and made the next logical chess move on the board of superpower geopolitics.

So we both went to the brink in Oct 62 during those 13 days, and it was only thru a back channel deal, Jupiter's out of Turkey, Soviet nukes out of Cuba that we averted a real nightmare scenario.

At that point, both sides saw the fear that starts to take over when we comtemplate nuclear warfare, and both sides began to take quiet bi-lateral steps to wean the fear out of the dialogue, and one of those steps was the fact that neither side would engage in a robust civil defense posture, for fear that it would make the other side think that we were in the early stages of planning a first strike.

What both sides did, was a "just in case" mutual decision to protect national command continiuty, and we, here in the US have something like 70 plus national command posts, bunkers, well-appointed, with comm gear, etc scatterd throughout the country, so that the President can in an emergency, go to cover, and direct the military, obscure places. Maybe half of them still exist operational today, who knows, the Vice President does. (lol) I'm sure the Soviets constructed similar, although ours probably had better couches and mattresses, bed sheets with the Presidential seal, and those cool coffee mugs. Thats what I like about us, we Americans know how to do 5 star, we do it with class and style.

and at that time, we also BOTH dropped the idea of Anti-ballistic missile defense, and thats why you saw the Nike sites around major cities go away. I remember as a kid, we used to have one near Belmont harbor, I thought it was cool, I didnt know what it really meant, I knew it was a "Nike missile site"...this was before Phil Knight and the Nike brand of shoes. So we both dropped ABM, except we agreed that they kept their program around Moscow, I'll bet there was a similar deal for DC, although nobodies copped to that.

But 2006 is a different day, and we work on ABM weaponry, have we been successful? Not yet.

But here's the real danger, the real threat, in the mid 90's, I read bin Laden put out the word, that he would pay 30 million plus for one ex-Soviet ADM, atomic demolition munition, suitcase nuke with a 5 kt yield. 70 of these devices are MISSING from ex-soviet inventory, thats an estimate.

Now these islamo-fascists like to strike at symbols of America, World Trade center, Pentagon, and probably the White House. (sidebar, I dont buy the "lets roll" scenario, it makes nice copy, but the reality was probably a couple of Sidewinders from an F-15, but thats not the kind of story we even WANT to think about, let the myth stay, people sleep better at night. I would have given the order, so would you, and so did the Vice-President. nuff said)

So they like to hit symbols, AND maximize casualties, and they probably have ADM's. What do Americans LOVE? Sporting events, we attend them in the thousands, packed together.

Out here in Chicago, we have dear old Wrigley field, and even our beloved Cubs are lovable losers, 40,000 people PACK the place. Did you know that there are two side streets sitting right next to the park, where a car can park, or even stop and sit, during gametime. Haji (and I will use that term with impunity, they call themselves "shaheed", anyway) Haji puts the device in the trunk, drives next to the park, screams "god is great", and hits the play now button.

40,000 plus dead, tens of thousands more injured, and more importantly, baseball becomes death. Thats what 'asymetrical warfare' is all about, EVERYTHING is a weapon. Public opinion becomes a weapon, fear is a weapon. Why do you think the haji's videotape IED attacks and post them on YouTube? Public opinion becomes a weapon, "get out of Iraq now, its failed policy, etc etc etc".

Its a new war for a new century. Do I think that we have intercepted some of these devices? You bet I do, our guys are good, but we will never hear of it, cause it would scare the public to death. Fear is a weapon, so many of our success's in fighting islamo-fascism will never ever be publicized.

Do I think they still have some...sure maybe.

I might be a democrat, but I stand behind and pray for our President and pray for the leadership, and you, my brothers and sisters on the frontline.

I really don't think the country knows the depth of this struggle, thats why I never use the term "the war on terror", its a war against islamo-fascism, its not a war against Islam or Muslims. Does a Godly man cut off ten heads and leave them in a garage?

No, a fascist does. Thats who we are fighting.

But I cant read World Net Daily, too many guys selling key chains, and ranting about "liberals".
Personally, I'm done with the politics of diviseness, that was a pre-war luxury that we best get rid of, we are all Americans, and we are in the fight of our lifes.

Hey, nice speech huh?

maybe I should do it for a living?

lol....nope, too many guys selling keychains, on both sides of the aisle, I'll just pray, thats better.

God bless you and your unit, keep the kevlar on, how many days? 30 and a wu?

bartle

S
sermonindex

had almost forgotten chi-town had a team...

yeh, uh-huh...as the first President Bush responded to the question "what's going to happen to the Iraqi Army"?

he said, "watch and learn".

does Chicago have a team?

watch and learn.

I'm smiling, thanks, God bless you brother, bartle

C
Compton

Iron,

i must say that u.m. OSU rivalry is a good one

Speaking of hooligans, a couple of years ago after a home game with UM, excited Buckeye students went truly nuts, pouring into the streets, tipping cars and lighting them on fire...and I think some frat house dragged a ratty sofa out and set it on fire too. It's beer-saturated fabric probably combusted in a giant fireball. Higher education at work...the poor Michigan fans were none too happy as they tried to exfil out of our midwestern Mogadishu.

when i get to come out that way we should most definately hang out. that coffee wouldn't be from starbucks would it?

Actually I'm talking about a small coffee shop that was voted the very best in all of Columbus for 2006...which is saying something for a resturaunt/shopping crazed city filled with Starbucks, Tim Horton's, and Panera Breads...

C'mon on up bro!

MC

S
sermonindex

God bless you and your unit, keep the kevlar on, how many days? 30 and a wu?

I am unable to say bartle. that would be a violation of "OPSEC"

What do you think of the article within the article about "what to do if an attack is iminent?
God bless, John

S
sermonindex

Forgive for asking ANY questions I didnt realize how tight OPSEC had gotten, I came of age in the Carter Navy, and that was pretty loose, so I didnt mean to be nosey, it was more like concern, rooting for you, I know what its like to be short...

...and also forgive me for engaging in an anti-WND rant, instead of talking about that valuable primer you posted, the article within the article.

http://www.ki4u.com/guide.htm

and its a great starting place for anyone seeking knowledge to protect their family, that hasnt been of the mindset of a defensive posture, and this is their first realization that the frontline might be at their doorstep, I don't think most Americans realize that, and I don't know if they can really handle that.(yet)

We don't know each other, but if you knew me, all the stuff they talk about it in that article, I've been doing for years, not out of paranoia, but out of a natural desire to have my "stuff" together. Until 10 months ago, I lived in an isolated rural area in SoCal, where natural disasters were a reality, flood, fire, earthquake and even one large riot.

So I always had more than adequate supply of water, food, cooking fuel, illumination, electrical generation, radio, and basic medicines, first aid and means of defense, more than enough to be cut off from any supply for a month or even more. It doesn't cost a lot of money, and seeing that I did homeless ministry I began to have even more supply, (lol) food, soap, socks, tents, blankets and Bibles.

But its a great article, because what it does is, help a person get their act together PRE-attack, if one comes in their area, and the main question is : stay or flee?

and my vote is stay. Remember when they had that hurricane evacuation from Houston, i think it was? and there was that 120 mile long traffic jam? If that isnt a textbook example of what NOT to do, I don't know what is. People were sitting on the highway, running out of gas, no food, no water, not a good scene.

I live about 6 clicks from that baseball park, and about 18 clicks from the downtown area, but I'm fortunate enough to live in stout brick low level apt building three stories high, i live on the first floor, alone (in human terms :-) and am blessed with a sublevel storage basement, thats clean with storage lockers that are the wooden slat variety, the windows are really those clear glass cinderblocks facing away from both the downtown area and the ball park, so I would be prepared to camp out down there for a week, two weeks, whatever's necessary, and am fully prepared to show Christ's love to my neighbors by sharing provision and remaining calm and loving, stout in the Lord's strength. I pray that my neighbors would remain calm and cool, and I believe that God would remove those who get wiggy, weird, or whatever bizarre manifestations a person would exhibit in an real emergency, in that environment, it would be a post combat zone, and you know as well as I do, there are certain people that you wouldnt want to share a foxhole with, they're not trustworthy to push the fear down and keep it together.

I know that Jesus is your Helper where you are, of course one might get scared in a comabt zone, but you don't LIVE in fear, you live in faith. Is it hairy? sure, but your trust is in the Lord, as is mine.

I fully expect something to happen here in the States, and its not going to be a "less than" 9/11 attack, but I don't fear, for three reasons, I'm ready in supply, in mind, and I rest in the Lord. Somebody secular, or somebody with a non-military background, would think I'm totally nuts.

Fair enough, but if they were around me in such a hellstorm, in Jesus' Name, i would be more than willing to help and shelter them.

God has also been good to me in the fact that He provided my son, whose 2,000 miles away ,with a great stepdad, who I like and admire and has his stuff together. He should, when I emptied my storage locker in LA, I gave him my whole kit....lol! Everything, you should have seen his smile, I certainly gained his respect when he saw everything I gave him.

I don't know how many of our fellow Americans would be receptive to that article, they still got a pre-war mentality and they don't realize that on 9/11 the frontline became blurred, the frontline was the homefront, and that scares Americans, but i have hope, we're a resilient people and if something really nasty happened stateside, people would rally together, and help one another. I feel it.

Heavy topics, but good, thanks for posting that article, God bless you brother, stay safe.

bartle

ps...I hope folks realize, you see a flash, HIT THE DECK, don't go look!!!!!!!

(later edit---only one thing the writer got wrong in my opinion
"A very large 500 kiloton blast, 2.2 miles away, will arrive about 8 seconds after the detonation flash with a very strong three second wind blast. That delay is much greater further away. That is a lot of time to take cover IF alert and you should stay down for up to 2 minutes."

if one is unfortunate enough to be 2.2 miles away from a 500 kt blast you better ready to meet the Lord....I'm laughing, I know thats sounds sick to be laughing, but 2 miles from 500 kt?...nope, say bye. At 20 miles away, you'd be having a bad day...anyway, good article. remember what us Boy Scouts were taught, "be prepared".

C
Compton

I hope folks realize, you see a flash, HIT THE DECK, don't go look!!!!!!!

Bartle, maybe we need a 21st century update to movies like "Duck and Cover". Remember those black and white movies from the 1950's and 60's? They would show you how to survive an atomic blast by holding up a large white newspaper, or how to stay and fight in case of a nuclear invasion, instead of fleeing the cities, ...and at the same time these films would urge you to tuck in your shirt, do your chores, and always keep a pocket comb....all with the same warbly soundtrack.:knockedout:

Hey today we Buckeyes learned that Columbus was ranked the number two city in the nation for disaster/evacuation readiness.

All I want to know I where can I find some of those atomic-proof school desks they had back in the 50's.

C
crsschk

Haven't really followed all this through and for all that is rightly serious in these parts and even within the confines of this posting ...

We do have "[i]a lighter side[/i]" that can be pushed overside ... forgetting all the niceities for just a moment;

Although I try to limit that side of my personality from my posts because I'm trying hard to cultivate my image of a miserable carking sin hound, inconsolable over the sorry state of everyone else's spiritual condition. :knockedout:

:-P

I
IRONMAN

bro bartle


bartle wrote:
had almost forgotten chi-town had a team...

yeh, uh-huh...as the first President Bush responded to the question "what's going to happen to the Iraqi Army"?

he said, "watch and learn".

does Chicago have a team?

watch and learn.

I'm smiling, thanks, God bless you brother, bartle

i'll be on the lookout!

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike Compton

Speaking of hooligans, a couple of years ago after a home game with UM, excited Buckeye students went truly nuts, pouring into the streets, tipping cars and lighting them on fire...and I think some frat house dragged a ratty sofa out and set it on fire too. It's beer-saturated fabric probably combusted in a giant fireball. Higher education at work...the poor Michigan fans were none too happy as they tried to exfil out of our midwestern Mogadishu.

i remember that, the big question was, if OSU kids behave like that when they win, what on earth will they do if the team loses? :-? it's crazy bro, however that does speak to a Godlessness in our society and that is the fruit thereof.

Actually I'm talking about a small coffee shop that was voted the very best in all of Columbus for 2006...which is saying something for a resturaunt/shopping crazed city filled with Starbucks, Tim Horton's, and Panera Breads...

cool, that would be much nicer i think, here on the u.t.m.b. campus we have 2 starbucks outlets and a couple more on galveston island...

when God hooks us up i'd like for you to take me to that place bro.

God bless you bro mike

I
IRONMAN

bro Bartle

and my vote is stay. Remember when they had that hurricane evacuation from Houston, i think it was? and there was that 120 mile long traffic jam? If that isnt a textbook example of what NOT to do, I don't know what is. People were sitting on the highway, running out of gas, no food, no water, not a good scene.

i remember that, i was in the middle of it with my wife and daughter. it took us about 5 or 6 hrs to get to austin texas which is a drive that should take half the time. if i had known it would have been like that, we'd have left right after work the night before. some of my friends took 24 hrs to get to dallas...next time though i'll be an E 1 so i'll have to stay and work untill we have to evacuate all essential personel. but yes that was a nightmare...

ps...I hope folks realize, you see a flash, HIT THE DECK, don't go look!!!!!!!

point taken...when the bp shell plant in texas city exploded, i heard the blast and it shook our apartment building, i went out to look...not going to do that again...

S
sermonindex

I watched yesterday in the UN, when the NK's stalked out, and said the resolution was a "declaration of war".

Thats pretty clear, now I understand why secty Rumsfeld kept the Iraqi deployment at 150,000 instead of the "Powell doctrine" of 500,000.


So I started pondering, if I was an NK general, how would I attack, so naturally I start to think air power and artillery. Back in my day, we were always concerned about the NK Air Force, they had 1600 aircraft then, but this was in the day when the F-4 Phantom was our main fighter, F-14's and F-15's were just coming into the force at that time.....

...so I did some looking, the NK's don't really have a modern war fighting air force, the best part of it is 20 Mig-29 Fulcrums, the rest are relics, that would at best serve as target drones for our guys.

and with no air cover, I dont see how they can insert special forces behind the DMZ, thats what i do if i was them, but how? they can't do para drops in number, they cant do sub insertion in number.

The only option they have, IF they attack is that they use chem and bio in the opening artillery and missile barrage, and that will be very bad, very nasty, many many people will die.

but there is no way they can succeed in their goal of getting to Pusan, the southernmost major port in South Korea in two to three weeks, because we will own the air in a matter of three days.

But, here's the really bad thing, what the NK's just did is to set off an arms race in Asia, everyone, the Japanese, Chinese and Indonesia are all going to be working to nuclearize their forces. The Chinese already have nukes, they'll be working overtime to modernize.

"wars and rumors of wars."

S
sermonindex

Kim is definately 'ill'
and he has a few fellow tyrants round the globe to keep him company
...poor people
J

I
IRONMAN

bro Bartle
i don't think the administration is looking to fool with north Korea, i think the guns will probably turn to Iran first since Ahmadinejad probably won't hesitate to blow up one of those bombs over here when he gets one. of course when he does unless antichrist comes forth to keep bush from pushing that button, iran will be on the receiving end of those city busters you talk about. a whole lot of them...

our redemption draweth near!

C
CJaKfOrEsT


IRONMAN wrote:
i don't think the administration is looking to fool with north Korea, i think the guns will probably turn to Iran first since Ahmadinejad probably won't hesitate to blow up one of those bombs over here when he gets one.

Besides that, there's no oil in Korea;-)

I
IRONMAN

bro Aaron

Besides that, there's no oil in Korea

tru dat...incidentally the idea is to pressure N.K. by getting china to cut off oil supplies. the chinese of course are concerned about their borders and i don't know that they want to duke it out with kim, if they did though it would be bad because the chinese government is a Godless lot and i don't think they'd have any qualms nuking N.K.

then again one article i read said that kim jong il, while not likely to set a bomb off over here is not likely going to be won through negotiations since he's more fascist and not so much religious (assuming being worshipped as God doesn't count) it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

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