Ray Comfort on Joyce Meyer

Did anyone watch the episode with Ray Comfort on Joyce Meyer's TV program?

Here is the link to watch online.

[url=http://www.joycemeyer.org/OurMinistries/Broadcast/TV/Archive/20061027.htm]Ray Comfort on Joyce Meyer[/url]

WHAT!!!

Are you kidding? Great Witness Ray.

I think Ray just wants to get the truth out no matter what. He is on TBN, & we all know about that network.

Hi Krispy,

I totally agree with you on your opinion about Joyce Meyer and her ministry.
I also have learned alot from Ray Comfort and I´m disappointed that he showed up on her show. I felt the same way when Franklin Graham once appeared on TBN.

In Christ,
Bea

I like Ray Comfort, and have learned a lot from him concerning effective evangelism, and have integrated a lot of his techniques into my own personal evangelism.

However, it is sad and discomforting (excuse the pun) to see how someone who knows so much about scripture completely ignore it at the same time.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Joyce Meyers is a false teacher. She is one of the major teachers of the Word Of Faith movement, which is a false health and wealth doctrine. Does Ray mark her? Apparently not. Going on her show only lends an air of acceptance of Joyce Meyers. Does he avoid her? Obviously not.

I agree Krispy, I also like and appreciate Ray, but this has severely tarnished his name. Ray speaks of evangelism, but does he realize and speak the fact that this womans false message has helped the devil damn countless untold souls to hell? Did he confront her on the issue that her false message is helping Satan damn souls to hell? NO! To teach this woman to use the law to show sinners their sinful state and produce guilt is counter productive. Don't be surprised if she starts preaching the law in her conferences and instead of leading the convicted souls to Jesus, she leads them straight to her false gospel and Word Faith teaching.

Ray can use the Scripture to show sinners their state, but can't use Scripture to expose a false teacher and coworker of Satan? This seems to me to be nothing less then double mindedness and hypocrisy.

Do you think Jesus or Paul or Stephen or Peter or John or Isaiah or Jeremiah or Amos etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. would have gone on the Joyce Meyers show to talk about evangelism like Ray? What do you think these men who the Scriptures lay down as our example would have done on the Joyce Meyers show?

I don't think that being on that show is utter comprimise

I agree - being on the show is not utter compromise, but being on the show and not standing up for truth is (in my opinion)utter and complete compromise. To we sit openly and publicly with enemies of the cross and co-workers of Satan and pretend to be in agreement with them?

Again I pose the question for reflection - Do you think Jesus or Paul or Stephen or Peter or John or Isaiah or Jeremiah or Amos etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. would have gone on the Joyce Meyers show to talk about evangelism like Ray? What do you think these men who the Scriptures lay down as our example would have done on the Joyce Meyers show?

Wasn't Stephen and evangelist? And Paul and Peter and John all evangelists?

Ray Comfort's ministry is evangelism and he is wishing to get that message out to all Christians, I don't think that being on that show is utter comprimise but it will offend some. I am of a more mature mind to see that there is good fruit being accomplished over this, I praise God the gospel is being preached.

I think it is important to point out that we don't know the full extent of their visit and that much could be edited out, etc. I think shining the light into some of these peoples lives can be a good thing. As I mentioned about Jesus' method with the 7 churches- all is not utterly lost with these people. They can make amends if they see the Truth and turn from the false. Sometimes this is a process and God brings folk along. it may not be a slam dunk like we would wish- but then again a lot of what we do is likely hindering the work of God more than helping it. Just being honest. I am certain that God is trying to steer these folk into truth and salvage what is good- to strengthen those things that remain, etc.

God Bless,

-Robert

bro Patrick

I agree Krispy, I also like and appreciate Ray, but this has severely tarnished his name. Ray speaks of evangelism, but does he realize and speak the fact that this womans false message has helped the devil damn countless untold souls to hell? Did he confront her on the issue that her false message is helping Satan damn souls to hell? NO! To teach this woman to use the law to show sinners their sinful state and produce guilt is counter productive. Don't be surprised if she starts preaching the law in her conferences and instead of leading the convicted souls to Jesus, she leads them straight to her false gospel and Word Faith teaching.

why don't you confront her? why don't we all? if we have it together shouldn't we be crying out louder?most of us are probably guilty of not saying a peep when someone says a foul word in front of us, do we have courage enough to go out and show sis JOcye the right way?

Do you think Jesus or Paul or Stephen or Peter or John or Isaiah or Jeremiah or Amos etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. would have gone on the Joyce Meyers show to talk about evangelism like Ray? What do you think these men who the Scriptures lay down as our example would have done on the Joyce Meyers show?

it doesn't matter what they would have done,they are not here. what matters is what shall WE do? that is what God shall ask of us all...

i must say though that in spite of some of the excesses of some of these ministers on TBN, God has taught me some things through them. if God decides to take hold of one of them and speak we ought to listen.it's like digging through the muck for some nuggets of gold. think about gold mining. do you know how many tons of earth need to be excavated and processed to yield a bar of gold? a whole lot. perhaps we ought to do the same with some of these preachers, rather than write them off totally, we ought to sift through what they say and learn to discern what is from God and what is not.

for example this whole Word of Faith thing, there is something to be said about naming and claiming something which lines up with what God is working to do. it is another thing however to name and claim/blab and grab something out of our own lusts...i think of when Elijah said that no rain would fall on Israel and it didn't rain...Peter told that lame man at the temple "get up and walk" that right there is a Word of Faith.

bro Krispy

So it makes it ok? 2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

i thought Joyce Myers is a believer, misguided about some things perhaps (as we all are) but a believer nonetheless. how then does the above scripture apply if she is a believer? i think a more appropriate word for this situation is that in which Paul said those of us who are strong must bear the infirmities of the weak.

i don't agree with everything that she says or does but i'm not about to miss out on anything God may say through her or anyone else for that matter...i intend to receive all i can so i can do all i can on this side and enter heaven and have all the rewards i can. if we were to label everyone as an unbeliever if they were wrong on some aspect of the word then we all would be unbelievers because there are some things which we all hold to which have no scriptural basis.

this is why fellowship is so beautiful to me, God can file off the rubbish and add to those things which He has shown us through us. bless God for fellowship!

bro Krispy
i love you too and i'm not sure we're as far apart as we could be. we may be closer than we think, God knows for sure. Nonetheless bro i must say that if indeed TBN is trash tv, can we say that everyone or everything that has been said/shown there is false? or is there indeed some truth which we ought to find by exercising discernment. it seems to me there is a great need for that. everything needs to be washed in the light of God, even TBN lest we miss out on some things God is trying to show us through it.i think this has more with being lazy than anything else...it's hard to execise discernment, especially if it's not a thing we hear much from the pulpit...

As for going to Joyce about her error... I cant. Oh, I could write to her, but she'll never receive it.

can't or won't? are we not speaking out against her because we can't or because we'd rather not? what will we say to God should He ask us about this?

However, many people have confronted her about her many erroneous teachings and also about her disobedience to scripture concerning being a woman minister... and she has publicly mocked them in the studio and from the stage. I've witnessed it myself.

are you afraid of being made a spectacle and mocked by her? are we? am i? but didn't Christ say happy are you when men mock and ridicule you for my sake?

There comes a point where you have to shake the dust off your sandels and just warn people about her.

then maybe we both ought to warn people about us. i should warn people about you and you warn people about me because we both feel the other is misguided in some way.but then again the apostles were sent out to preach the gospel and if nobody in a certain house received it, they then shook the dust of their feet and left. clearly this woman knows God but is misguided about certain things as we all are. the scriptures are inspired of God for teaching doctrine and reproving too. the "re" part kinda makes me think it will be a repetative process...i wonder how many times we each had something wrong and God spoke to us about it again, and again, and again....and again...again and again...

i thank God He's not as fickle as we can be sometimes!

i love you much bro

I don't have time to get into this right now...
but my initial impression on this post is a bunch of Self Righteousness.

I don't like what "Christian TV" represents or does either....but before you hang this woman on a tree, you should be very careful.

Her books are used by Teen Challenge, (A ministry formed by David Wilkerson).

She has extensive prison ministry. Someone I know personally was touched by this.

So who are we?...what do YOU do for the cause of Chirst?

Again, I can't address this fully, but frankly, something really bothers me about the tone of this post.

In Christ,

Mark

sentry

With all do respect, David Wilkerson might have started Teen Challenge, but he is not the head of Teen Challenge currently, so you can't use David's name anymore, when Associating David Wilkerson and Teen Challenge.

You should ask her how big her house is. No really, how many millions of dollars did it cost her? she has her own security team. Just to note is costs about 35 dollars to support a missionary or a child with Gospel For Asia, how many missionaries, or children could she have supported. But no, instead, she bought an oversize house, with expensive jewerly. Does this sound like a commited christian to you?

Please read this link for more info on her:

http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm

So who are we?...what do YOU do for the cause of Chirst?

Well, one thing you can do is warn people about her obviously false teaching.

I saw Ray Comfort evangelising, and all I know is he made a girl cry. Not out of repentance, but out of her feeling bullied by him. That seems unacceptable to me. Evangelism is of God, but scaring people away from God isn't. It isn't about *us*, and about how like Paul et al we are - isn't that just prideful? It's about how many people can be saved, and scaring them to tears isn't the way forward. Kirk Cameron uses a different approach, but is just as effective.

The issue with Joyce Meyer isn't her gender (that verse is often taken out of context, usually by men) but her beliefs. If she is effective in her evangelising, then as far as we're concerned, that should be the end of it. Her beliefs, and her house are between her and The Father. She'll have to explain that to Him one day. But we have no right to "warn" people off her. In what way are any of us more perfect than she?

Matthew 7:3-5
And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

This thread feels all tense and ugly... I think maybe that means this whole thread is drifting away from Him.

bro Krispy

IRONMAN... notice that Paul did not share that opinion with you. He did not exhort the Christians in Rome to listen to false teachers because God might speak through them. No, he commanded that they mark (or brand) false teachers, and avoid them. Listening to them waiting for some truth that may come out of their mouths is akin to searching thru a dumpster behind Olive Garden in the hopes you might from some food in there. Why not just go into the Olive Garden and order dinner? At God's Olive Garden... dinner is free! We dont even need to leave a tip!

but then didn't Paul also say that whether the gospel is preached out of strife or some other motive or with sincerity he rejoices because Christ is being preached anyway?He're the thing, Paul knew that even if the gospel was preached from impure motives, God could still move and people could be drawn to Him.i'm sure it's a safe bet that despite some of the fallacies of her ministry (which we agree on)and perhaps some have been led to hell, some have been led to Christ in truth. i was catholic before i was born again and that was my first exposure to God. The fact that we know of the fallacies of Catholicism and popery does not negate the fact that for many people, that is where they first meet God and God takes it from there. just like you were in the WOF and you found some fallacies about it but wasnt that where you first began to learn of GOd? how is the gospel preached there?out of pure motives or impure. bro Krispy my point is this, if we can be honest with ourselves, we have a lot of false things which we each hold to and as such one can take the liberty of saying "well so and so holds to this and so he is a false teacher" that could be said about us all to some degree. there have been some things which you have said in the past and things which i have said and i'm sure many of us here have said which we have had to recant because we were wrong. we both could be branded false teachers in that regard...or maybe even heretics.

i admit i should have clarified what i meant when i said not to write her off completely. i don't listen much to joyce meyer, or jakes, or whoever but if God says "Here is something you need to check out" i'm on it and i glean from it whatever He has for me to glean and move on. i've not always shown perfect character on these boards and neither have you but we both have learned from eachother no?

i liked your analogy about sifting through a dumpster for food. i suppose we all have to do that to some extent as it pertains to the things we say. sometimes we spew forth a lot of garbage and sometimes God speaks through us, we have to learn to discern which is which and that is really the point of all this.

bro kk

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

this was rather timely bro, i hope we don't fall into that number out of being complacent or anything else for that matter...i pray we combat this thing with all diligence...

bro Matt
you know when you said this, it got me thinking...

You should ask her how big her house is. No really, how many millions of dollars did it cost her? she has her own security team. Just to note is costs about 35 dollars to support a missionary or a child with Gospel For Asia, how many missionaries, or children could she have supported. But no, instead, she bought an oversize house, with expensive jewerly. Does this sound like a commited christian to you?

the word does say "don't muzzle the ox when it is threshing corn" that being said, i don't think the cow/ox should eat all the corn either...but i wonder how much we could do if we spent less on some of those things we buy just because. i don't think it necessary to have such an expensive/oppulent home but God got on my case about that some time ago showing me that my discontent with that had to do with my own knowing that if i were in a similar situation, i would do the same. not sure if that's true of all here but that was me. perhaps this is something we ought to consider, if i were in her shoes, would i do anything different?probably not.in the end God dealt with me by letting me know that i needed to take care of what He wants me to take care of. JM and all the others will have to answer to God one day, but so will i, so will all of us.

i guess a lot could have been done with the money spent on that house but i wonder what could be done using the money we spend on say, movies, starbucks, fancy gadgets we don't need, clothes we never wear, jewelery (though it may be cheap) to name a few. i guess i feel that if we see clearly the faults of others we ought not repeat them or we should more closly examine ourselves to see if we aren't guilty of the same things ourselves...

something to consider perhaps?

I think we should have a bit more faith in Ray, i think one thing he realises is to use the opportunities he gets. He has used Spurgeon's saying before "you can point out forever the crookedness of a stick but as soon as you place a straight stick next to it, its crookedness becomes instantly apparent". Those of you who have listened to Ray understand his position on modern gospel and its complete danger. Although Joyce is huge modern gospel, a lot of her listeners tune in not knowing any better and it doesn't mean that they are unbelievers. They just need guidance. A lot of people listen to these preachers because of ignorance. I think it was great Ray could show the truth, he didnt need to smash down, just show the truth. He has confronted people which is very important, but he understands that its not just preach and rebuke.

Ray said a lot of today's preaching is wrong, he showed the necessity of the Law several times. He didn't join in one of her conference things, but sat down with her and her audience and taught them biblical evangelism. Lets not be too quick to diss one of our favourites.

boomatt wrote:
sentry

With all do respect, David Wilkerson might have started Teen Challenge, but he is not the head of Teen Challenge currently, so you can't use David's name anymore, when Associating David Wilkerson and Teen Challenge.

With all due respect, I know that.

However, I was only making a point that one of the most successful ministries in the World (Teen Challenge), utilizes some of her material.

That was all I was saying.

Anyway...I realize much of what many of you are saying is true, and it grieves me.

I shall pray for her...and for you.

Mark

Munchkin wrote:
This thread feels all tense and ugly... I think maybe that means this whole thread is drifting away from Him.

I agree, sounds more like a lynch mob.

Mr Meyer. Has everyone forgotten about him? Where does he fit into the picture?

Is he saved? Does he have his own ministry or does he support his wife's ministry?

I have no idea what his name is or anything.

So if anyone has any info, let me know.

Just curious. Thanks.

God bless.

I am just a layperson and a woman, so I do not attempt to instruct anyone on this thread. I would; however, like to offer an oppinion on any harsh criticism against a servant of the Most High, whether it's Ray Comfort or your local pastor. I am speaking of Mr. Comfort, not Ms. Meyers.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

K_Day, there's a difference between religiosity, and having the Heart of Jesus. With all due respect, the fact you sound angry means the conversation is going wrong.

Faith is an absolutely individual thing - intensely personal between us and God. We are told to love, to give love, first and foremost. You can quote scriptures, and denigrate Joyce Meyer until you're blue in the face, but where's the love in that?

I have no personal feelings on Joyce Meyer one way or the other, so I have no personal axe to grind, but we have no right to judge her. You're expressing anger at me, and anger at her, so for my part I'm truly sorry if I've said something to offend you.

However, if we feel we can judge another person's relationship with God, we lose the ability to love them and to feel compassion for them, and that just gives the devil a way in. None of us want someone else judging us, and our relationship with God. I know I'd fall waaaaay short of anything even approaching acceptable in His eyes.

As for my thoughts on suicide - I understand why you felt the need to bring it up here, and even why you feel the need to talk down to me, but again, it IS between us and God. Everything will ultimately always be between us and God. We can have fellowship with others, support and serve others, but I just don't think we can judge others or try to tear shreds off them then says "Well, really it's ok, cos look, the bible tells us to." The bible is The Word, yes, and it is perfect and true, however we are flawed broken vulnerable people who readily misinterpret what the bible says. Look at Westboro Baptist Church. They believe they are right in what they say and do. They preach sheer hatred, and they say it's all from the bible, every word.

God is merciful and pure and Jesus is love. I would rather give any Christian the benefit of the doubt than make assumptions as to the veracity of their relationship with God. Whether that person is someone quiet who stands at the back of church, or whether they have a multi-million dollar ministry.

It so often sounds patronising when people say this, but I will pray for you. Not cos I think you're in the wrong, or cos you "need" it, but cos I really appreciate this discussion and I'm grateful to you. Anna. x

Munchkin,

You can quote scriptures, and denigrate Joyce Meyer until you're blue in the face, but where's the love in that?

Wait a second here... There is a big difference between personal attacks, and a real concern for our brothers and sisters in christ.

The bible is not silent on the subject of false teachers, read Acts 20, and also another one that comes to mind is 3 john. John actually named the person that was causing offense. My question is, should we as christians, name those people who teach false doctrines?

Don't mistake our criticism of Joyce Meyer as denigration.

Somebody who has such an influence such as her, must be held up, and accounted for, for what she says...and I have hear first hand, that what she says, is not good, is not from the bible. Anybody can twist scripture around to say what they want it to say if it is not in the right context.

Be careful of such people, Paul warned about them in Acts 20.

-Matt

But she clearly doesn't have that much influence given so many Christians think she's ridiculous. If she brings people to Christ, that's wonderful. We just have to trust God will start teaching them, and people will eventually realise that her teachings are a bit dodgy. But it's not for us to warn people off her. What if someone saw this site, thought it was wrong, and decided to warn people off it? None of us are any better than anyone else. Someone fab made me realise rcently, it's only by God's grace we aren't all fallen. We're no better than her.

Having a go at Ray Comfort for going on her show was super-judgemental. In his heart, he clearly loves God, so how on earth can any of us decide he now has no integrity, cos he went on the show of someone we've arbitrarily decided is rubbish? Tis lunacy!

Lest we forget, the devil is the accuser of the brethren.

Thanks Krispy for the info about her husband.

Fact is you either accept or reject her teachings.

I reject them.

God bless.

Ok, if we are all so adept at interpreting the bible's every word, explain Revelation to me. That's in black and white. All you have to do is read it.

In regards to women being silent, there are varying schools of thought on it. Firstly, he may have been referring specifically to women giving false teachings at the time, as elsewhere, Paul doesn't attempt to restrict women from teaching in church (1Co 11:1-5) and, in fact, uses them greatly to spread the good news.

Further, isn't it hard to define "teaching"? If a woman can never teach a man, how are men to learn from The Song of Deborah, or the proverbs of King Lemuel which were passed on by his mother, or from Esther, who rescued her people? Do you suggest flipping past those sections in the bible?

Munchkin,

Having a go at Ray Comfort for going on her show was super-judgemental. In his heart, he clearly loves God, so how on earth can any of us decide he now has no integrity, cos he went on the show of someone we've arbitrarily decided is rubbish? Tis lunacy!

I will quite honestly tell you the reason for me being critical of his move to go on Joyce Meyer.
I love Ray, he has been such an awsome influence on my life, his Evidence Bible has been such a great inspiration, all the quotes, study notes from him. Having said that...in my previous posts, it has alarmed me that he was on TBN. NOW, I know what your thinking, "whats wrong with that" I will tell you, EVERYONE, (well with the exception of Way of the master, and Paul Washer) on that network teach the Heresey known as the Word of Faith, All the way down to the owners Jan and Paul Crouch. Being on this network automatically sets of alarms in my discernment part of my spirit.

I am not being judgemental, only concerned. Remember that a little leaven, leavens the whole lump...and this is NOT taken out of context, and I am afraid Ray and Kirk are heading in that same direction, and you bet I will be praying for them.

Read some of Krispy's last SCRIPTURE (and i'm not yelling, just trying to get everyone to see the word scripture) he referenced concerning false teaching, we should know better than to go on their show. people who now watch, who were concerned about Joyce's teaching, are now comforted in the fact that they know a solid man like Ray is on the program, which is obviously false. HER TEACHING IS DESTRUCTIVE, NON BIBLICAL.

If you tell me not to judge her, please give me scripture references where someone says not to expose false doctrines of devils, and PLEASE don't take it out of context.

All through the bible I read references about exposing false prophets, teachers, from the Old testament to the New Testament.

I am sorry if I offend you, but I am doing what I am bibically commanded to do, please don't respond with any comments unless you can use scripture to back it up. If you do, I will most certainly repent from what Paul Crouch will call "Heresey Hunting".

In Love,

Matt

Check out this compilation featuring Joyce Meyer and Carter Conlon from Time Square Church called Confronting The Theology Of Babylon. This is good to burn to CD and give to people you know who listen to and like Joyce.

[b]Confronting The Theology Of Babylon[/b]

http://www.thesearchforbiblicaltruth.org/artist___carter_conlon_vs_joyce_meyer.mp3

I have read this thread with interest. To get a feel of what the uproar is about, I logged onto the site and listened to the interview Joyce Meyer had with Ray Comfort.

From the interview itself, I found no fault with it, understanding time restraints that is upon everyone - not everything can be said one wants to in the time allocated. Even in face if that, it seems to me both JM and RC did a very good job.

My concern for this entire episode is very different from any who posted on this thread. It is not the fact that she is a woman, not that she belongs to a different church then I do. It is the fact that she is a divorced and remarried person living in adultery: Rom 7:3:So then if,while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." Mark 10:22 echoes these same sentiments. No amount of 'good works' will ever annul the clear teaching of God's word.

As for Ray Comfort speaking on her show, I am reminded of what Jesus frequently did: he ate with sinners and the Pharisees in their homes. The Pharisees were highly critical of him eating with sinners and the Pharisees were his greatest critics and Jesus had some sharp words for them. BUT there is a diference: when Jesus visited the Pharisees he did not mince words when the occasion called for it. Moderns are too inclined to be filled with the "How to Win Friends and Influence People" philosophy then be be upfront with the gospel according to Jesus Christ and His Spirit. We would rather please our host and not offend him/her. We are too polite. Yet to be rude for its own sake is counter-productive. One must not be afraid to speak the truth as the Scriptures say it, even if it would offend our hosts! Jesus did not let the fear of man distract him. Whether RC soft pedeled his message, I have no idea. But what was given in the time frame alloted was Biblical, IMHO. They even promoted his school, literature and ministry!

In discerning, one must realize we are handling the Holy Word of God and that should instill within us a sense of Holy terror lest we mishandle it and fall under its judgement.

This is my take on this issue and I do appreciate all who have voiced their concerns.

(I do hope this post will not deteriorate into a divorce/remarriage debate.)

ginnyrose

Paul told us to MARK AND AVOID false teachers... not go on their shows and read their books. It's not a suggestion, it's a command.

We're are either going to obey scripture, or we're going to be in rebellion to it. There is NO middle ground.

There are plenty of grey areas in the scripture pertaining to behavior and such that get discussed on here all the time... but this is not one of them. Scripture is very clear on this subject. It's not something that should be open for debate.

I agree - there is not really too much to debate about. The scriptures make it it pretty clear and cut and dry in this situation.

Amen Krisp!!!

Good post, Krispy!

Does JM actually consider herself to be a pastor? I am familar with the scriptures describing the qualifications for a bishop or deacon. Is this what she says she is? If so, she is definately out of place, like you said.

To me there is a huge difference is a female engaged in evangelism/teaching vs leading a church. Joel tells us in the last days sons and daughters shall dream dreams and prophesy. Apostle Philip had four daughters that prophecied, but we do not read they were leaders of a brotherhood. I would consider that different because of the scriptures noted. If this - given to prophecy - is the ministry JM is doing I would have no problem with that. There were OT women gifted in this manner and they give us a pattern what you can reasonably expect to see in the NT church where all of God's people were to be filled and empowered with the Holy Spirit.

My unease with her goes beyond what anyone else said or what I noted in my other post...I just gave the basic...and that has to do with what the scriptures tell a female to do when praying of prophesing. 1 Corinthians 11 tells us a woman's head is to be covered. I did not see a veil on JM's head. 1 Cor. 11 tells us if you do not do that, this will dishonor her head. The word dishonor means (from Strongs): "infamy, that is, (subjectively) comparative indignity, (objectively) disgrace: - dishonour, reproach, shame, vile." Jesus tells us if we are ashamed of him, he will be ashamed of us. Now based on this scripture where does that put JM? or any other female who chooses to disregard this scripture?

Having said all this, I did not mention the doctrine she promotes. I agree with the other posters here on the WOF movement.

ginnyrose

Let's not forget that God used a donkey to get the message through to Balaam.

So God can use not just who He wants, but WHAT He wants.

Just one dumb animal to another, in the case of Balaam that is.

Did anyone take that personally?

No?

Phew!

P.S

Still reject her teachings!

Krispy wrote :

Yes, Jesus hung around with sinners... to the point where people said He was a winebibber and a glutton... which He was neither. But whenever Jesus encountered false teachers or pharisaical people He rebuked them. Harshly.

Brother, I had a problem with a few statements you made about 'fellowshipping to false teachers or pharisutical people'.

Below is two contextual scriptures on where Jesus hung out with a Pharisee, I don't know if it is the same one, but nonetheless it's a refutement to the quoted statement above. Blessings brother.

In Luke 7:36-50 Jesus ate a meal with a Pharisee and didn't rebuke his (the Pharisee's) teaching, just his own words against the woman anointing Jesus' feet.

Then also in Luke 14:1-14, Jesus AGAIN eats a meal with a Pharisee. Here Christ just teaches them things of the Kingdom of God. No formal rebuke to them individually but instead teaching from His throne.

Enid wrote:

Just one dumb animal to another, in the case of Balaam that is.

LOL

In the NT donkeys are called "tares".:-?

ginnyrose

Dorcas wrote:

I am very saddened by the legalistic tone of comments about JM's divorce and remarriage.

Since when has quoting scripture become legalistic? Seems to me I see you do it all the time!

ginnyrose

About Lady Joyce? She has not drawn me, but obviously she draws millions of admirers. After all, she didn’t get her nice car and house from the sky – well, maybe she feels she does.

I feel intensely sorry for all those who know lots about this lady, and nothing about the great sister saints – soldiers of the cross who have contended for the faith in our past - those who learned foreign languages, taught, led, translated the Bible, and knew more miracles than most of us will ever know put together - healings, deliverances, provisions, who led entire villages to Christ. …. and who were humble servant leaders in the places God sent them. There were women who single-handedly led entire villages to Christ without a white man around. God was their Man!!!

I say, let Mrs. J do her thing. Don’t waste time there. If you are wondering about women as leaders, why not get edified by reading such biographies as Catherine Booth, Fanny Crosby – who was such a mighty preacher that people lined up for blocks to hear her. (that part gets left out of the history books) Or what about Mary Slessor, Dr. Hamilton, (forget her first name), and many, many others – who went to the dangerous corners of the world without a man? What about Gladys Alward who’s own church, including the missionary societies rejected - refused to put their umbrella over her.

Men, If you could, I know you’d wash the feet of these dear saints. And you’d be silenced! I sure would be!

When God puts his hand on a servant, man or woman, amazing things happen for the Kingdom. However, when man (or women) walk out from under HIS authority, you end up with a lot of hot wind. And then a debate about gender roles is irrelevant.

Diane

DOrcas,

First, I didn't notice anyone actually quoting scripture on that point.... (divorce and remarriage),

I quoted scripture on this issue in the post I posted at 12:10. You may have missed it.

ginnyrose

My only regret is that we cannot stone them or burn them at the stake anymore.

I was wondering, how much authority can a TV personality have over viewers without them willingly opening their hearts and wallets to him/her.

Remember: you can leave the TV off!

Diane

we could also just stop reading posts and responding

"Whatsoever is true... noble... right... pure... lovely.... admirable.... excellent.. praiseworthy - think on these things." Phil. 4:8

Diane

I just watched the interview and it seemed that she talked way too much for an interview. I wanted to hear Ray not her. Sorry.

One thing I admire about Mr. Comfort is that he always goes back to the topic. :-)

This thread feels like internet gossip.

I haven't learned anymore from the back and forth I just read through than I knew before except the church needs to repent and I am not talking about false teachers.

This is an excellent website with a wealth of teaching resources. We should make good use of it and glorify God.

bro Matt

I am not being judgemental, only concerned. Remember that a little leaven, leavens the whole lump...and this is NOT taken out of context, and I am afraid Ray and Kirk are heading in that same direction, and you bet I will be praying for them.

this got me thinking bro...if a little leaven leavens the whole lump, i wonder how much each of us has been influenced by a false doctrine/teaching irrespective of whether we see it as big or small. none of us here at every moment of the day says and does right,we all fall short in one way or another yet God still uses us...obviously we have exposed to some extent the false teachings of this woman, but what of our own? she is in violation of certain scriptures which Krispy pointed out, but what scriptures are we ourselves in violation of?ought we not do more than pray in such an instance? doesn't the word tell us in James 2
[b]14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. F7 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without F8 thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [/b]

so beyond the exposition of these things, what shall we do?bro Krispy said "there comes a time when we must shake the dust of our feet" that got me thinking bro...where would i be if God had shaken the dust off His feet with regard to me?where would you be bro Krispy? where would we all be?surely if God put up with our mess and foolishness (and continues to do so) it should not be a hard thing to bear with our brethren and continue to reprove and correct as we are led...how many times have i been corrected?how many times have you?how many times has God corrected us all...repeatedly so even for the same thing for years...whoa, i got 2 words...AMAZING GRACE...

if we do nothing more for our sister, and she is our sister for we all believe on Christ, than expose and not reprove, what kind of brethren are we?

there are some people i know who have learned a lot through Jocye Meyer because God has spoken through her. just as surely as He has spoken through each of us at one point or other even through a minute after He got done using our tongue for His glory, we turned around and used out tongue to curse someone...or to lie...

i don't know about y'all but God is really busting some things down for me with this thread...bless Him for that.

bro Krispy

To answer IRONMAN... I am not afraid to confront any false teacher. I've done so in several situations, and even in our own house church network where as an Elder it's my responsibility. If I was afraid of people blasting me publicly do you think I would say 90% of the things I do on this forum?? LOL...

i didn't think you were, you seemed a bit hesitant to tackle this one so i asked. it is one thing to speak on the boards and get blasted...and i know you know like i do, it's another mission when you get blasted to your face... ;-)

love yu bro and this thread has really got me thinking...

sis Dorcas

But, you do ASSUME that Joyce Meyer is not in subjection to anyone, don't you? Isn't this the only way you can deduce she has usurped authority?

whoa...something to think about...

If what she teaches is unscriptural, or you have any other complaint against her ministry, that is a different problem; on those factors, many men shouldn't be in ministry either.....

ouch...never thought of that...

Do you submit to me, Krispy, in the equality which makes submission possible (according to Oswald Chambers)?

now that's heavy...some things to chew on here sis...lots to chew on.

sis Dorcas

Note: I am not talking about a non-Christian setting out to expound scripture.... I'm just saying that God uses 'people' to communicate His heart and truth to His children who are listening for His voice.

thanks for clarifying that part of what i felt led to say. it may have come across like i was advocating non-Christians expounding on scripture.

sonofadam777 wrote:
Did anyone watch the episode with Ray Comfort on Joyce Meyer's TV program?

Here is the link to watch online.

[url=http://www.joycemeyer.org/OurMinistries/Broadcast/TV/Archive/20061027.htm]Ray Comfort on Joyce Meyer[/url]

I did not watch the interview yet, but, I will in a bit... Thank you for the link!

First I'd like to share a link to the text of a sermon by David Wilkerson called "A Friend of Sinners". You can find it at worldchallenge.org

I have read this thread and it reminded me of this sermon because in it Pastor David speaks about false teachers and our duty as christians.

here's the address:
http://www.worldchallenge.org/pulpit%5Fseries/?yr=2006&pg=n&id=0612

and the link:
[url=http://www.worldchallenge.org/pulpit%5Fseries/?yr=2006&pg=n&id=0612]A Friend of Sinners by David Wilkerson[/url]

I seldom visit this forum so I don't know if I'm breaking any rules by posting the direct link... I apologize in advance if I am...

God bless you all!!!

Sara (I'm imaginary)

As for going to Joyce about her error... I cant. Oh, I could write to her, but she'll never receive it. However, many people have confronted her about her many erroneous teachings and also about her disobedience to scripture concerning being a woman minister... and she has publicly mocked them in the studio and from the stage. I've witnessed it myself.

Krispy

since she has him on her show, I see I was wrong, so you never know

anyway, send a letter anyway, at least your conscience will be clear. I've sent many letters and e-mails to some other preachers too that I've been very critical of certain doctrines. Jesus is worthy :)

Okay, so this thread may be a good place to hang out for a bit. (Ironman, I really enjoyed reading your reflections).

I did view the TV episode – well the first 7 minutes. It’s just not for me. I am not into methods, and all that stuff. And I'm not into pronouncing diagnosis and doing autopsies.

From time to time I wonder if I should take a hiatus from SI threads, and spend time filling my brain with new material. After all, our sharing will have no wider scope than the contents of our minds.

Looks like I’m still here…. But I am also filling my mind with material that makes all the dazzle of the TV show look pathetically pale. It is a testimony of: Rosalind GoForth – her book, [url=http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Promises/I_Know_God_Answers.html]How I Know God Answer's Prayer[/url]

The value of this testimony is measureless, and yet, it is FREE.

I highly recommend that you fill your minds with this kind of material. Even reading the contents page will stir the smoldering embers of your faith.

This testimony and many others occurred before the days of women’s lib, back when it was thought that women’s brains were smaller and had more water in them than men’s. Yet look what GOD did! And … the testimony of her furlough! Wow! She wanted to rest and focus on her time with her children. And yet, God had another plan for her….. and he provided immeasurably…..

Why let your faith get dragged down in the drab affairs of man when you can energize your faith with the glorious affairs of the kingdom!

As they say: You are what you read (and hear and view).

Do you agree?
Diane

Diane,
I put this in my favorites.
"How I know God answers Prayer."
My Toner is low now, but I plan on printing it asap.
I love to read Testimonies about what God has done, and is doing in people's lives.
God Bless you.
Thanks
Nellie

Hi everyone.

Brothers and sisters in Christ, this seems like a pretty controversial topic. I can definitely appreciate how passionate we can feel about things like this at times.

I would like to offer some thoughts here and I hope they will be helpfull for us.

I'd like to start off by asking a question of you all. My question, though it may not seem relevant at all is this:

why, do you think, so many of the religous leaders in the time of Christ, missed Him, as it were?

Certainly they knew the scriptures didn't they? And surely they knew what they were commanded? Why, look at what they said of the [i]people[/i] for instance

[b][color=000000]But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed[/color][/b]

Yet the Lord Jesus said of them,

[b][color=660033] Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.[/color][/b]

Well then, is it really possible to know and even obey, to the [b]letter[/b], those things written in the Bible and not be following God?

One of the main objections I think the religous leaders of the day tried to raise against the Lord Jesus was in regards to His actions on the sabbath. For instance, He healed on the sabbath day and in once instance told the man He had healed to take up his bed and walk. Of this, the scripture says

[b][color=000000]And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.[/color][/b]

Later it says,

[b][color=000000]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, [u]because he not only had broken the sabbath[/u], but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[/color][/b]

Elsewhere the Lord said

[b][color=660033]Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?[/color][/b]

And then He tells them

[b][color=660033] Judge not according to the appearance[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033]but judge righteous judgment[/color][/b]

Brothers and sisters, is this not our need today as well? Are we not also in danger of judging only according to the [b]letter[/b] and failing to follow after the [b]Spirit[/b]?

Brothers and sisters, I think of the scripture that says

[b][color=000000]...as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God[/color][/b]

And also, how the Lord Jesus told them

[b][color=660033] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[/color][/b]

Indeed brothers, the scripture does tell us to have no fellowship with darkness, yet, if we are to follow that to the [b]letter[/b], then what would we make of this...

"When I was kidnapped by police and kept imprisoned for years in strictest secrecy, a Christian doctor actually became a member of the secret police to learn my whereabouts! As a secret police doctor, he had access to the cells of all prisoners and hoped to find me. All of his friends shunned him, thinking he had become a Communist. To go around dressed in the uniform of the torturers is a much greater sacrifice than to wear the uniform of a prisoner. The doctor found me in a deep, dark cell and sent word that I was alive." - excerpt from [i]Tortured for Christ[/i] by Richard Wurmbrand

Looks like I’m still here…. But I am also filling my mind with material that makes all the dazzle of the TV show look pathetically pale. It is a testimony of: Rosalind GoForth – her book, How I Know God Answer's Prayer

Thanks for the resource Diane, I ordered the book for our prayer resource library and while I was at it I ordered books on other saints who have shown us the better way of prayer.

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this subject ChrisJD. Now the nail has truly been hit on the head and may the ring of it resound to the church.

...as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

God is calling His church to humble themselves and pray even those on wild false teacher hunts, and seek His face

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

and turn, turn, turn

the plank is larger than the mote but so often is missed. There is a "religious spirit" that looks nothing like Christ though all the right words are said.

Help us Father.

bro Krispy

Not saying JM isnt saved... but having successful prison ministries, and top selling books (filled with rank WOF heresies) doesnt mean anything.

but bro you did pull out this scripture

So it makes it ok? 2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

have you quoted it out of context because here you're not saying JM isn't saved? the above isn't saying that we ought not have any dealings with the world. we are in the world yet not of it so on some level or other we have to deal with unsaved folk sometime. but this is our sister in Christ though. we are called to separated ourselves from the world spiritually, physically we can't do that till we die. We could be like the Amish, living as they do with little interaction with the world but how does that help the world? how is Christ shone forth without some sort of interaction? what Paul is saying is that we can't hope to attain Holiness by soliciting the help of the unsaved.

this whole yoking thing brought back some childhood memories which God taught me through. i don't know how much you know about farming bro Krispy but here goes. at some point in my life i got to learn how to till the land with cattle. cattle are very docile but strong creatures. when one tills the land with a team of oxen they have to be yoked together and both have to be willing to do the job or else nothing is going to happen.

one gets up early, gathers the gear, the yoke (joki in my language) which has slots cut in it in pairs wide enough apart to make room for the coz's neck. in these slots go (not sure what the english word for this is) chikeyi (zvikeyi is the plural) which are wooden bars which keep the yoke from sliding off. those zvikeyi are connected by a rope which goes under the cow's neck so that should the coz rear it's head, the yoke won't get thrown off and come back down on the cow's neck. cattle are worth more than gold...

anyhow i remember one occasion when one of the 2 bullocks we used to till the land just wasn't in the mood to work...that made for a long morning. we couldn't get that thing to work for anything, no amount of whipping, coaxing, nothing did it. eventually we got it under the yoke, where we had the other willing bullock aleady and it was gravy after that. going up and down the field making the furrows was no sweat then.

so how does this apply? if we had yoked that one cow which was not in the mood to work with the other one, we would have had a long day rather than just a long morning. if we take the ploughing to be the work of God, the willing cow to be the believer and the unwilling cow the unbeliever, we can see something more about what Paul was trying to say. the work of God can't be done when an unbeliever is on the saeme yoke we are on. well some work could be done but it will not be much and it won't be easy. as believers, there is no amount of coaxing, accusing, whipping or whatever which will compel the nonbeliever to get under the Yoke we're under to do the work of God.however if we simply are as we should be, that is testimony enough without words. the unwilling cow eventually got under the yoke long after the beating and so on, i guess it finally felt like working! anyhow once it did get under the yoke, there was no need to do anything more to get it to work, it just did.

so it is with us, if we conduct ourselves as we should, the life of Christ will speak for Him and for us who called by His name and testify against the wickedness which is around us.however if we look around we see that God's work is greatly hindered because we have already yoked ourselves with unbelievers. we have fellowshipped with darkness. we have sought to do the work of God by our own strength and means hence nothing much gets done...it's not the Church which has influenced the world, but the world which has influenced the Church.

now in the case of JM, she is our sister in Christ, not an unbeliever. we ought not give up on her or cast her aside. the word says we shouldn't judge or we will be judged ourselves with the same harshness which we judge. if we write our sister off and do/say nothing to right the things we see are clearly wrong, it seems to me if we were in the same position, people looking at us would do the same.

how many times have we taught the wrong thing and done the wrong thing yet God puts up with us, day in and day out and corrects us over and over, day in and day out. surely this determination on God's part to complete the work He began should cause us be that much more determined to see this work done not just in us but others, no matter what it takes.

i think about all that God has had to put up with (and stil is) with me, but He hasn't written me off...perhaps we should be a bit slower to write people off? let us consider God's mercy on us and show that to others.

I ordered the book for our prayer resource library and while I was at it I ordered books on other saints who have shown us the better way of prayer.

This is music to my ears!

I have shelves full of great books written by humle saints of God. I collect them from yard sales and church tables (library rejects!) Christians have been discarding them because they look old and unattractive. They are replaced with modern fiction, and such.

You can see why I am delighted to see someone like you bringing them back into circulation.

Diane

rocklife wrote:
I thought Joyce Meyers was a lost cause too, but I sent her a copy of Ray Comfort's tapes anyway a few years ago. She sent a kind of cold thank you letter back, and then flipping channels, I caught a show I felt she kind of mocked Way of the Master evangelism style later on one of her shows.

since she has him on her show, I see I was wrong, so you never know

It's funny you mention this, I have often handed copies of Hells Best Kept Secret to "professional type" pastors, who have been deeply convisted by it, only to adopt the "using the Law" technique, but not realise the importance of "showing sin to be exceedingly sinful", and therby cause the appearance of mockery. I remember sitting down to watch Way of the Master with my father a while ago, and he said to me, "Is this is that stuff the Ps So-and-So made a mess of preaching?" It's almost like they can't lower themselves to the level of not being the one to dish up manna, and because of this, serve up rotting quail, in preference.

Perhaps Meyer fits into this category. Perhaps shes heard something in the message that has pricked her heart (funny how the Word of God has a way of doing that), and once she has "composed herself", has tried to adapt it for her "viewer's benefit" and has since come one step closer to "coming to the end of herself" by admitting the need of another to present the message.

The week that Ray was recording the show, I met with a staff memeber from the GNN, who was visiting Australia for a Evangelism Boot Camp, and he mentioned that Meyer had purchased a massive amount of Ray and Kirk's Way of the Master book, to be used as "gifts" for donors to her ministry. He mentioned that he anticipated that Ray would cop alot of flack for being on the show. I for one commend Ray for going on, and taking the opportunity of presenting the gospel to countless counterfeigt converts who mindlessly abosorb the "humanist rot" that she tends to dish up. It reminds me of a story Ray told of how he talked Krik Cameron into starring in Left Behind 2, citing the countless people who could be influenced by his involvement in the movie. As a result of Kirk's starring in the movie, Ray and Kirk even had input into the script, rewriting the gospel presentations.

As Jesus and Paul in their day, I rejoice that the Christ is preached, especially to th epeople who need to hear it.

ChrisJD, you bring up a good point. The underground and persecuted church has taught me some very interesting things, and unorthodox things, but I believe God can be unorthodox too. I believe our persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ have wisdom to share.

thanks for sharing,

If anyone is interested in the ministry of Richard Wurmbrand and the persecuted church, a free newsletter is available at www.persecution.com, that book ChrisJD mentioned "Tortured for Christ" is often available for free through this ministry. God bless

CJaKfOrEsT wrote: As Jesus and Paul in their day, I rejoice that the Christ is preached, especially to th epeople who need to hear it.

amen

Hi everyone.

For the sake of clarity, and for those who might read or have read it, I want to make it certain that the post which I submitted in this thread titled 'the letter - it killeth' was in response to the [b][u]original[/b][/u] topic of this thread, that being Ray Comfort appearing on a TV program with Joyce Meyer.

God forbid that I should ever persuade men from obeying the Words of His Mouth!

Still, the Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660033]Judge not according to the appearance[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033]but judge righteous judgment[/color][/b]

and so I would yet ask

Brothers and sisters, is this not our need today as well? Are we not also in danger of judging only according to the letter and failing to follow after the Spirit?

I do not direct this at anyone but I remember just now too how the Lord Jesus also said

[b][color=660033]But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless[/color][/b]

Peace be with you all in Messiah Jesus

Perhaps to add to the matter of judging ...

One thing about this fellowship, never judge a thread by it's cover :-) It is remarkable the things that one might find ...

But I am also filling my mind with material that makes all the dazzle of the TV show look pathetically pale. It is a testimony of: Rosalind GoForth – her book, [url=http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Promises/I_Know_God_Answers.html]How I Know God Answers Prayer[/url]
The value of this testimony is measureless, and yet, it is FREE.

I highly recommend that you fill your minds with this kind of material. Even reading the contents page will stir the smoldering embers of your faith.

Diane, thank you kindly!

That she would "de-masculate" herself.

Not sure what you mean John.

we have to rejoice and understand that God's will is being done through many means and ways. God used Joyce Meyer's ministry to touch Rwanda!

May God be praised; and may every man be silenced!
Diane

Concerning the "de-masculate"

In Christ, no one has any authority but by what is given by him. All other authority is usurped.

That she would say something like...

If you read the autobiography I posted earlier, you will see that God was constantly calling Rosalind Goforth to repent. It was an integral part of her life journey.

Can you be blessed by THAT woman's testimony?

Diane

she has "usurped" the the headship

The far greater concern is the usurping of authority from GOD. That has paralyzed the church for centuries. In fact, the further the church gets out from under divine athority, the closer it gets to the RC model - where a human being stands between a person and God.

I had to repent of that my own false understanding of authority. For years, I had put my church leaders between me and God in my life. I never even knew what it was to hear God's voice directly, or to seek the Spirit to help me interpret scripture. In fact, if the Lord hadn't rescued me from that worldly understanding of authority, I would still be hell-bound. God clearly said to me, 'It's time to grow up.'

Of course religous leaders like to maintain control of the people (ungodly authority), so when God calls his own, their "cart" gets upset. It was like that for Christ and his followers.

When there is a proper submission to God, then human relationships will also align properly.

Diane

Yes, sometime God may use the "exception" to accomplish a goal. However He does not want it to become the "rule".

And yet God's RULE seems to be to do the EXCEPTION. He tends to turn ladders upside down. He lowers those on the higher rungs, and lifts up those on the lower rungs.

The safest place to be is on the bottom. (and I don't mean like King Saul who hid in the baggage)
Humbly serve God in the area where he assigns us, and trust in HIM. Go forth with confidence and courage! That is the kind of men and women who have been advancing the kingdom!

Diane

Can you be blessed by THAT woman's testimony?

Unbelievably so ... Read through the section on what the whole family went through during the Boxer rebellion...

Oh for some sanctified perspective people!

Time and again the things being overlooked while being preoccupied with all the mechanics. Forget Joyce and Ray for a moment or at least all the selective opinionating, wishful thinking, ought's and shoulds ... it is greatly besides the point if we cannot listen to the heart of the words coming from our lips, what of those mechanisms?
Would venture to state that I have a variety of opinion on a great deal of Joyce Myer and having followed a great deal of her ministry early on and later from afar, recognizing a very mixed bag of help to many women close to me, young and old and just as well many an area of problematic items. But I will not speak to any of it rather attempt to get us to look to our own selves and to the wonder of ease at which the commentary can flow often on scant evidence but the greater issue not asked is, [i]why[/i]?

At what point do we not just leave well enough alone? At what point do we refuse to have our perspective altered from fixed positions of opinion and presuppositions? What of the seeming antagonism that lurks below the surface, the taste of bitterness, the hint's of self-righteousness, the [i]want[/i] of passing judgment?

Brothers and sisters my heart ... This is as good a place as any to allow this to come forth. I love you dear people, even those which can cause so much flabbergasting at times at the wonder of just seemingly missing the greater point. But alas, that is too because I so often have and still do much the same. We can get ourselves very much caught up in these things all the while the Lord would have us concentrating elsewhere. Redundantly, there is room, there is times and seasons, it is to dissuade nothing by way of discussion here.

My prayers this morning turned towards a taking stock of things. The thankfulness for untold mercies and the Lords peculiar leadings, promises I know that He has given that have yet to see their fruition, they will come and they will be as He has intimated to my heart, mine is but to trust and wait, praying always, shall I doubt Him? Heavens no, the Lord is faithful.

This place, this outpost along the way ... Dear people, do you fully recognize what is going on about us? That the Lord raised up this humble man, Greg, to refill the earth with His truth through such an incredible and even 'unorthodox' means? Learning begets thinking and visa versa. Have said it before but if one wants a spiritual education in the things of the Lord it can be found here and that by no means make it exclusive or entirely ...

We now have members all over the world ... It is staggering to stop long enough to just ponder [i]that[/i]! Surely many a site could boast similarly, but I am thinking more directionally. The give and take, the sharing of hearts and experience and of other resources ... the links to books and forgotten saints, missionary's, preachers, workers, interceder's.

The variety of experience ... what is gender in general as it amounts to hearts here? Yes, I know what the scripture states and am not at odds with it in any such way. For this purpose I am speaking about hearts.

How about authority? Do we know what it is, is it recognizable without having to draw particular attention to it? Chip Brogden recently spoke to it;

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in
word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity" (I Timothy
4:12).

In the Church that Jesus is building, an older person is not
necessarily a spiritual elder. We do not look to the age of a
person's physical body when determining their spiritual maturity. Of
course, we owe a certain amount of respect to the aged by virtue of
their seniority; but they may not necessarily be our elder in the
things of the Lord.

One can be older chronologically and be quite immature in spiritual
matters. Likewise, a relatively young man or woman can have a deep
relationship with the Lord and be light years ahead of those two or
three times their age. A young man or woman who knows God is more
elder than a senior citizen who does not know God. We cannot judge by
the flesh, or we will be misled.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In a follow up...

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of
you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility" (I Peter
5:5a).

If our desire is for maturity, that is, if we desire to come to the
full-knowledge of Christ and grow up into Him in all things, we
should naturally pay attention to those who are elder in the Lord.
But being an elder has nothing to do with leadership ability, filling
an office, having a title, or performing some ministerial duty or
sacerdotal function in the church. The elders are simply those who
are older in the Lord. It is quite simple. My elder brother, or my
elder sister, has walked with the Lord longer than I have. The
implication is that they are more conformed to the image of Christ
than myself; they have experienced a deeper work of the Cross than I
have; thus, they have more practical wisdom than I do, they have
something to teach me, and I need to hear Christ in them so I, too,
can grow.

It should be obvious to you who is, and who is not, your elder in the
Lord. And, it should be plain to see that not everyone who is older
is necessarily elder. If you say you are a believer but you live no
differently from the world then you can be as old as Methuselah yet
you are certainly not an elder.

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A thought occurred this morning about this vast holding ground here... What about revival? So many different faucets to this; Personal, corporate ... is this a revival in our midst, here? This stripping back of religion and the "Christendom" of our day to see what's back of it? To ask and answer the question, is it [i]real[/i]? Our faith and trust and prayer, growing, developing, spurned on? Can anyone become stagnant traversing through this wonderland? On this question of revival, I admit it comes and it goes, but the challenge this morning was, if my brother desires it so much more perhaps than I, can I yet still join to his desire? Pray for and align myself with his wishes? Do we have this sort of intercession for each other, even on other matters?

Again, do we recognize the authority that the Lord has placed in our midst? Will not name names, but there are those that know the Lord in far greater measure in our midst, how happy am I that they continue on with us ... the learning, the changes, the matters that put me to contemplation and even more prayer.

All this to ask, has the love of God and the inexpressible wonder of His son, the reality of [i]I in you and you in Me[/i] gripped us, caused the reaction of praise and heart worship to come forth out of the depths of our being, giving great glory to God for everything?!

Oh it has to this poor fool... The changes people, the beautiful and wondrous changes, daily, moment to moment ... [i]have you considered?[/i] often springing to mind.

Saints, put yourself to praying and breathing God's word, allow yourself the blessing to wonder at His way's and means, how lovely, how peculiar!
Especially amidst such a peculiar people that we in fact are. Absorb and abide! Partake of what is made ready for you by this provision the Lord has granted such a great privilege.

In regards to missionary work...

Concerning missionary work.The "ideal" scenario is that if there are no men initialy then the work must be done by the women till either men show up or men get born again and then when mature they take the place of pastoring and teaching.

The men were all killed, not so much because they were men, but because they were misrepresented by a native who lied to his people. The women, being submissive and viewed as a non-threat, came in and lived with the natives and showed the love of Christ in their actions and words.

Once the natives' hostility was ended, and as Steve Saint grew into a man, he seems to now be the man in authority in harmony and alongside the male elders of the tribe.

My take on this is that there are some places that [i]only women[/i] will be able to minister. These women were under submission to their husbands and once deceased, they came under the submission of the native males but more importantly, God.

I'm not endorsing JM, here...trying to show that there are indeed exceptions but never opposing Scripture. Shouldn't God be allowed to do what He will? I love the men AND women of God, together or individually, who do so much to advance the Kingdom and have brought spiritual blessings, encouragement, and yes, teachings into my life.

Every[i]one[/i] will have to give account to God on the Day of Judgement...

May my words be few, and when they are, let them be Spirit-led.

Brad.

If you want a controversy, just start talking about females in ministry! I have been following this discussion without saying a whole lot, but must say I do appreciate many posters input...

As I was thinking about this, I always keep wondering how the males on this forum would interpret 1 Corinthians 11, how it would look like where the rubber meets the road: Consider the words "prophesy" in vs. 4-5; "power" in vs. 10; "head" vs. 3-5,10; the role of angels as noted in vs. 10.

Just an observation: my DH and I own and operate greenhouses growing tomatoes hydroponically. Both of us are deeply involved and it could not be done well without the other. We have learned to listen carefully and take seriously the observations made by each other and act on it. There is a vast difference is the observations made by us: I notice the plants ( I saw two dead white flies!) - what they need or do not need; my DH is concerned about the mechanical things: did the heaters run? what about the injectors? etc., etc. Both insights are essential to do the job well. The experts tell us when you have a husband and wife team operating a business like ours, it is much more successful because of the inherent abilities due to the nature of being a male and female: both work to compliment each other. In our businees we work for success of the venture. Our goals are the same and we see the other as indispensible in its operation. Initially we thought the other was paranoid and got aggravated, at times, with what he/she was suggesting be done. We have learned to submit to each others' observations because experience has proven it to be the best and failure to do so brought unpleasant consequences.

Perhaps something can be learned from this? What would happen if the brotherhood of believers would be able to recognize the limitations and strengths - according to the Scriputures - of males and females and allow the Spirit of God to use each and forget about ego?

Now back to my original questions: I wish the males on here would share their imput on how they would define these words and the practical aspects of it.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I have heard a few women comment that she even acts and sounds masculine in her delivery.

John, I'm not sure what the men are like from your neck of the woods but if people are comparing JM to them then you have more to worry about than whether or not JM is out from under the authority of her husband and pastor. :-?

...have you considered?

Brother Mike, I appreciate your heart. Thank you brother.

I still greatly appreciate humble ministries of christian women.

Hi, John, I appreciate your honest comments, and I’m sure that if we continued to work through all the surface “stuff’ we’d come to a mutual burden: the need for both men and women to humbly turn to God, and seek to live the New Life which Christ has offered us by his shed blood.

There is no disputing the fact that godly order has been practically destroyed. The god-given female role of rearing and nurturing children and providing a stable home seems to be wiped out of our social fabric. And so many of our males are simply unable to provide the leadesrship in the homes that is so desparately needed.

It's only going to get worse. I could go on and on, but you already know. And I don’t see any way that we can fix it. Any attempts to restore some semblance of proper relationships would be about as useful as putting a bandaid on cancer.

So what then?

Frankly, I’ve come to be grateful for any signs of Life. Just like water flows to the lowest points, God seems to move to the lowest spots – where there are humble servants. There's not exactly a lot to pick from.

In a neighboring town there is an evangelical church led by a female pastor. Occasionally I go there. I can say with all my heart that God is doing some good things there. And I hate to admit it, but it seems to be doing better than it was during past leaderships. I think that right now there is a good body of elders there, and other good aspects.

Is it God’s ideal church? Far from it ... for may reasons...

But God...

Diane

kdbutton, no one is comparing her to "men around here." Thats not the point.

John, I was trying to bring a little humor into this , sorry you missed my point. I appreciate your service to us. Rejoice, God is sovereign, that should make us all smile! kdb