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The decline of Secular AND Christian music

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Music has been discussed from time to time on this forum, and many of you know that while having issues with the Christian Music [b]Industry[/b] (and it IS an "industry")... I do love a variety of musical styles that some believers consider evil.

I have posted below a chapter from the book "Seeds of Change", written by Kerry Livgren, who was the creative force behind the 70's/80's rock band KANSAS. Kerry became a born again believer in the early 80's and has gone on to front several Christian bands since. He is a prolific song writer and instrumentalist.

Anyway... I thought this writing of his tackled many of the things I have myself noticed in music, both secular and christian. This really sums up where I am coming from.

It's lengthy, but those who are interested in this whole issue will find it interesting.

Since what I have posted below is available for free on his website ( www.kerrylivgren.com ), I do not believe I am breaking any copyright laws by posting it here.

Anyway... looking forward to hearing any comments y'all might have!

Krispy

[b]From the book "Seeds Of Change"
by Kerry Livgren[/b]

[i]I am often asked to comment or voice my opinion about contemporary music, both secular and sacred. I usually decline because an honest response to the question would require a great deal of labor on my part to bring it about, and I'm not sure that my opinions are any more valid than those of others. Yet, I am continually asked, so I will attempt to formulate my thoughts in this abbreviated version.

One of the problems in answering such a question is that "contemporary music" covers such an incredibly broad spectrum that it is difficult to know exactly what part of that spectrum I am to comment on. Besides, exactly what are the boundaries of "contemporary" anyway? Five years, two years, ten years, a hundred? One thing I know; the fickleness of American popular music listeners is astounding. Today, a piece of music can cease to be contemporary in a matter of months! It turns stale like a piece of bread. We have divided recent eras of popular music into decades or less, as if any possible social or artistic relevance in a song could not reach beyond that short span of time.

It must be a symptom of our shallow throw-away culture. Things are no longer built to last. Everything, not just music, seems destined for a transitory life, as if designed only for maximum profit, soon to be replaced by the "next big thing." It is as if planned obsolescence has invaded the realm of human expression. Longevity is only relevant as it relates to commercial viability. Quality or creativity seem not, in and of themselves, to be sufficient reasons to justify the existence of a piece of music. They have been eclipsed by something called "image," and marketability, now a necessity for the artist (if "artist" is the appropriate word).

The motivation behind much of the music being produced today is, to my mind, somewhat less than pure. The artist who is trying to be totally original and creative has more than an uphill battle on his hands. There are the necessary (?) legal entanglements to contend with. The artist must not only attempt to convince a record company to distribute and promote his or her music, but is also constricted by the ever-narrowing parameters of radio formatting. If you don't fit the mold, you're out in the cold. Creative or not, if one steps outside the boundaries of one of these commercial formats, it can be the kiss of death.

One could argue that this is nothing new and has always been the case. Audiences supposedly rioted when they first heard Stravinskys' Rite of Spring because it sounded so unlike anything they had ever heard. People seem to prefer to be mindlessly entertained than to be challenged. But even if that has always been true, I maintain that our artistic environment today is getting worse and not better. There is no atmosphere today which can cultivate a Stravinsky. People are obsessed with music at an almost unprecedented level, but the quality of what they are obsessed with is, in my opinion, in a general decline.

Allan Bloom spoke at length (and quite eloquently) on this point in his book, The Closing of the American Mind. Commenting on our culture's obsession with music, he writes: "It is available twenty-four hours a day, everywhere. There is the stereo in the home, in the car; there are concerts; there are music videos, with special channels exclusively devoted to them, on the air nonstop; there are the Walkmans so that no place--not public transportation, not the library--prevents students from communing with the Muse . . . ."

This is profound and true. Music is all around us. But the disturbing irony is that so many can be obsessed with so little. One doesn't often hear Bach, Duke Ellington, or Aaron Copland blasting out of a boom box. Don't misunderstand me; I know it's beginning to sound as if I don't like rock or any kind of modern music, or that I think we should remain in the past. That's ridiculous--I grew up on rock and roll, and for most of my life that's what I have written and played. My lamentations are for what I think is a lack of real creativity and the absence of an atmosphere that would encourage and reward it. Incidentally, I am not saying this from the standpoint of an artist who believes he is above that criticism. I constantly struggle to escape the ordinary in my own work, and only occasionally succeed.

Over the years I have accumulated a rather large collection of recordings which covers the whole spectrum of musical styles. Lately I have found that there is rarely time to sit down and simply listen to music, but in one of those rare moments, I pulled a record off the shelf that I have not listened to for probably ten years. It was an early album by a little known British group, Gentle Giant. I happened to notice the liner notes on the album which read: "It is our goal to expand the frontiers of contemporary popular music at the risk of being very unpopular. We have recorded each composition with the one thought--that it should be unique, adventurous and fascinating. It has taken every shred of our combined musical and technical knowledge to achieve this."

I think they fulfilled their prophecy of their own obscurity, but what a credo! They stated most succinctly the exact attitude which I think is missing from so much of today's contemporary music. There is no virtue in intentionally seeking to be unpopular, nor does commercial success automatically mean that a piece of music was conceived for that purpose. The best possible scenario is one in which the highest creative endeavors are accessible to the broadest possible audience.

Bloom makes a point in his book with which I completely disagree. He maintains that the musical soil is rich, and that "There is no dearth of the new and the startling." To the contrary, I find a tremendous dearth of the new, although I grant that some things I hear are indeed startling. I would have to take the position of Ecclesiastes--that there is nothing new under the sun. Virtually everything on the airwaves is so completely formularized that it sounds like it came off an assembly line. I don't really think that there is a total absence of creative musicians on the face of the earth. They surely exist in garages and basements, and might be heard on the most obscure private record labels, but obscurity is the key word here.

Ironically, there are some real virtuoso players out there, but the confines of the styles in which they are trapped can make them stupefyingly boring. Guitarists are particularly guilty of saturating the market with their machine gun arpeggios and ever more flamboyant and postured chromatic explosions. How much more impressed are we supposed to get? The whole genre seems to be designed to draw attention to the player rather than the music. Even the college radio stations with their "alternative music" suffer from a dreadful sameness. Most of the groups I hear on these stations seem to believe that providing an alternative consists of either imitating the bands of the sixties or being as cacophonous and obnoxious as possible.

There was indeed, an explosion of creativity in the sixties and early seventies upon which we are still coasting. Many of the popular musicians of that decade literally defined how some instruments are played thirty years later. There is not a contemporary rock guitarist, for example, who does not owe a huge debt to Hendrix, Clapton, and a few others. During that brief period, scores of new bands emerged, almost all of which had a distinctively individual and identifiable style. Musicians were doing many things that had never been done before. It was a very open and creative decade. We are now in an imitative period. I am amazed at the apparently unending number of heavy metal groups, for example, that are strapped with such rigid parameters in both their music and their appearance. Where are the individuals?

One of the things that frightens me most about saying things like this is that I sound just like our dads sounded when we were teenagers! Growing up in the sixties, most of us heard our parents expound on the unequaled greatness of Benny Goodman or Glenn Miller, and how this "modern" music sounded like noise, had no melody, and would not stand the test of time. The generational boundaries were clear then, but interestingly, they seem to be getting less distinct today. I have seen many families with teenagers in which both the parents and kids were listening to the same groups. In some cases, the kids were reaching farther back than the parents were. That rarely would have been the case in the sixties or even the seventies. I never would have bought a Count Basie or Frankie Carle album when I was sixteen (although I appreciate them now, and I'm starting to really dig Glenn Miller).

As a member of a band that reached its peak of popularity in the late seventies and early eighties, I find it gratifying, but also peculiar to be receiving a significant amount of fan mail from people 25 years younger than me. On the most recent Kansas tour that I was on, our audiences ranged from early teens to late middle age. Something has certainly changed. The only theory I have for this is as follows: As modern music becomes more formularized, derivative, and shallow, listeners are crossing cultural and generational boundaries to find music of spiritual and creative substance. Witness the recent interest in various types of "ethnic" music. I find myself listening to it a lot because it seems so untainted and fresh--free from the corporate mold.

Christian music suffers from the same malady. Though we as Christians have a mandate to be skillful and creative, and Scripture affirms that we should sing unto the Lord a new song, we rarely hear anything truly new. The atmosphere of Christian radio is so limited as to be almost stifling. Not only is it as highly formatted as its secular counterpart, but in most cases, the artist must conform to some sort of spiritual criteria--someone's definition of what makes his or her music acceptable Christian music. It's a strange irony indeed that finds lyrics with the most profound truth coupled with the most unchallenging sort of muzak.

I have noted the church lowering its standard in other ways regarding art and music. The practice of singing to tape tracks rather than live musicians has invaded the church and become so prevalent as to become almost the norm. Though I understand why this is done, I can't get over the feeling that it is not an improvement, but a great step down into mediocrity. I find it particularly repulsive in the context of a concert. I leave these events feeling like I've been to half a concert. I have no problem using things like sequencers and overdubbing for recording, but something precious is lost when a "live" performance is not alive. It deprives the musician of his place and the audience of the joy and spontaneity of human expression. I have even seen a "performance" on Christian television in which the music was on tape and the vocals were lip synced. Is this supposed to inspire?

Recently I have been listening to a recording of a composition by Ralph Vaughn Williams entitled "Ring Out Ye Crystal Spheres." (a part of "Hodie") I decided as I was listening that this piece embodies everything I find missing in contemporary popular music, Christian or secular. It is majestic, mysterious, uplifting, serenely beautiful, transcendent, moving, brimming over with power, inspiring, inspired, skillfully crafted, done to the glory of God, and totally fulfilling (I like it!). "But Kerry," you say, "I feel the same way about rap music." That's a difficult argument to counter. There truly is no accounting for taste, but it does not lessen my conviction that we are in the direst need of the above-mentioned qualities in our contemporary art, literature and music. They are sadly lacking. In fact, our culture has so re-defined art that the word has become meaningless.

"Art" no longer represents the highest thoughts and aspirations of man. You can now walk down the main streets in America and find the pornographic theatres labeled as "Art Cinemas." "Art" no longer requires transcendent and inspired human skills to produce, and the word decadent falls hopelessly short of describing its moral status. It now includes the most repulsive sort of filth imaginable, all protected under the umbrella of free speech and artistic expression, and for society to set some standard as to what is acceptable, or to even describe a recordings' contents with a label brings cries of "Fascist censorship! Don't impose your morality on me!'' It would be interesting if the same standards that they want removed from their art were to be removed from the food they eat.

I can't help it, but something in me tells me that paint splattered on a canvas with a hose is not on a par with Rembrandt or Leonardo, rap and Thrash are not an improvement on Tchiakovsky or Debussy, and a crucifix in a jar of urine falls a little short of Michelangelo. If our art and our music are the pulse of our culture, then civilization is sliding down, and if we haven't hit bottom, how much lower can we go?[/i]

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sermonindex

This is a good article.

I was a big fan of Kansas when I was into rock music. Kerry livgren is a brilliant song writer. He actually has a new CD, well I don't know how new it is, but I've heard it. My dad actually went to his house in Kansas. He said he has an awesome home studio. I have lots of family living in Kansas.

He's right. Music has taken a downward spiral. Instead of exploring the frontiers of music and taking it to a new level, it's become a colaberation of hypnotic, three cord and four cord progression. The beat and cord progression are the only thing important. The voices are over dubbed until they sound almost unnatural.There is no excellence in mastering a instrument anymore. Mix it with lots of distortion and let it fly. Whatever happened to the guitarists like Randy Rhoads who mixed his type of music with a classical twist. His ripping arpeggios and staccato style guitar playing was the revolution in his days.

Personally, not much of todays contemporary music has any spiritual satisfaction for me. The old hymns really hit the spot.

J-bird

I think there is a reason for this though. Satan is a musical being and he has alot of influence in the musical realm.

C
Compton

Overall it's hard to disagree with Kerry Livgren on this topic. Like many people, I have several personal theories as to why culture just doesn't matter anymore in church...one possible explanation is that we evangelicals are just too end-times dispensational to be concerned about leaving great art behind for the next generation.

However, For what it's worth, it might interest some people to know there is a small but steady growth in the interest of Choral music these days. More and more new contemporary composers are making really wonderful contributions to sacred music and more choral groups then ever are being formed to sing this music.

But be warned...these are not evangelical composers. Normally I might not mention them here, but Kerry's article was more about good art, rather then theology.

In any case I think even Kerry Livgren would have to admit these composers are making fine art...although it's not pop music. If Kerry likes Vaugn Williams then he just might like one of these living composers.

The British composer and choral conductor [url=http://www.amazon.com/Rutter-Requiem-Susan-Dorey/dp/B00008OP1S/sr=1-5/qid=1162453899/ref=sr_1_5/102-1179971-3725766?ie=UTF8&s=music]John Rutter[/url] is being heard more and more these days. His Requiem is my favorite...one listen to Pie Jesus on this inexpensive CD and you'll believe that deeply moving and beautiful worship music isn't a thing of the past afterall.

The American composer [url=http://www.amazon.com/Lauridsen-Northwest-Journey-Morten/dp/B00004YNF7/sr=1-7/qid=1162454158/ref=sr_1_7/102-1179971-3725766?ie=UTF8&s=music]Morten Lauridsen[/url] writes both sacred and secular choral music. If you want to hear one of the most heart stirring flowing melodies that could ever fall on your ears, listen to 'O Magnum Mysterium" on the CD I bookmarked. Ears are wonderful gifts from God!

The Estonian orthodox composer [url=http://www.amazon.com/Best-Arvo-Part/dp/B0001ZMBU6/sr=8-3/qid=1162453585/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-1179971-3725766?ie=UTF8&s=music]Arvo Part[/url] is an internationally recognized master who has become known for meditative minimalism. It's worth noting that he suffered severe censorship from the Soviet Union a few decades ago when he made his Christian faith public.

These guys aren't exactly radio friendly...but they are heart and soul friendly...and the best part is they aren't dead yet!

MC

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"Christian music suffers from the same malady. Though we as Christians have a mandate to be skillful and creative, and Scripture affirms that we should sing unto the Lord a new song, we rarely hear anything truly new"

Nor is it being sung/played unto the Lord.

Lets be honest about the "seeker seeking" ways and make it the beginning point of any rectification to our "worship" service. I ceased attending "gigs" on Sunday morn nor will I allow myself to be manipulated by "self serving" lyrics regardless of the melody with which they are accompanied.
The church has let in the "little foxes" that have spoiled the vine.

I believe the writer has missed the whole point because of his love for music. I love music, too. I play the modern organ. I own three of them plus keyboards.
Rule of thumb for understanding: If the music sounds rotten, its rotten, regardless of how well it is played or supposedly understood. If music and the players of it is a hinderance to worship where does the problem lay? Is it with the hearer who is inhibited by the noise of distortion and/or confusing melody and non-directional lyrics? or the players who have no anointing, deluded into believing they have?

Music is creative and it creates an atmosphere. Ponder that aspect of it.

:-orm

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There is a Christian band that I was turned onto recently that I really like... and they are actually very artistic, tho maybe a bit too heavy for the tastes of some here.

They are called Narnia, and they are from Sweden. They play what is called "Melodic Metal", and their music is heavily influenced by classic music. They are first rate musicians, and the best part is... they dont hide the fact that they are Christians. Their lyrics are very bold. Even so, because of their outstanding musicianship, they are a very well respected band in Europe.

I've managed to get my hands on all 6 of their CD's, and I love all of them.

If you're interested, their website is:

http://www.narniaworld.com/

Krispy

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They are called Narnia, and they are from Sweden. They play what is called "Melodic Metal", and their music is heavily influenced by classic music

That's too bad. I would hope for the best influence..... Unless its just for secular entertainment they play.


:-o

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That's too bad. I would hope for the best influence..... Unless its just for secular entertainment they play.

I was talking about their musical style... their art form. Thats kinda what this thread is about. We all want to be so spiritual sounding that we cant even discuss something like this without trying to over spiritualize. C'mon man, dont be so quick to judge. Read the rest of my post about them.

Krispy

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PaulWest

Hey, what do you guys think about playing "blues" in church? I've heard different things from different people. I've heard one worship leader say that God is the creator of [i]all[/i] music, and we need to take back the stuff the devil has stolen and perverted and use it for God's glory.

But I have hard time coming to terms with this style of music in the house of God. I am a guitarist, and I know some blues licks. But, somehow, it just doesn't feel right to "jam" out in church like it used to when I was younger in the Lord. I get heavily convicted now, and refuse to play this kind of music for the sake of conscience.

What do you think? Mind, you, I am a Pentecostal believer - so, it is not so much the electric instruments (I love doing the old hymns with guitar, bass, and drums). What is convicting me is the [i]style[/i] of music, the spirit of the blues. The smokehouse, juke-joint spirit. It just feels wrong to me. Anyone else care to share their convictions on certain styles?

(edit) I think the real issue is that blues, in itself, is very soulish. When it is played well, it has the ability to touch and bring a feeling of "high" without the Lord's presence. This is dangerous...and may lead to a dependancy on a soulish painkiller. After all, isn't this how the blues came into being? Heartbroken people finding consolation through a godless musical outlet that has its roots in infidelity and alcohol? Should we allow this heathenistic form of "soul therapy" into the congregation of God, to evoke the presence of God?

Brother Paul

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Half of the Psalms and all of the book of Lamentations would make great blues songs... songs of whoa and heartache. God had no problem putting songs that dealt with individual and national suffering in His poetic books. So I think God expects us to not be afraid to express what we're feeling or going thru in the form of art. Kinda hard to sing a Psalm about everyone wanting to kill David to the tune of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen".

Having said that... in a worship setting I'm not sure that it would be appropriate. I think worship should be unto the Lord. I dont agree that worship should uplift us, I believe it should uplift God. So I'm not a huge fan of music that gets people excited and pumped up in a worship setting. It's about God... not us. Thus said, I dont think in worship we should sing songs or do things that focus on us.

But in our everyday life... away from "the temple" I believe God wants us to be honest with ourselves and with Him. Sometimes we get the blues. Sometimes we get frustrated. Sometimes we face fears. Singing a song of lament (like the book of [b]Lament[/b]ations) is very appropriate. In a setting where music is being performed I think a slow blues number decrying our fallen state is a very effective way of getting others to be honest as well. Get rid of the "Sunday-go-to-meeting smiles" and be real that we do face adversity in this life. God has given certain people a creative and artistic gift... and they should use it. If they dont, they are wasting the gift God gave them.

By the way... listening to music for pure enjoyment is [b]OK[/b]! Music shouldnt just be for worship. Listen to classical, if thats what you like. Listen to jazz... and enjoy it for the art that it is! It's ok! Sometimes people on this forum try to come off as being super spiritual and condemning anything that doesnt lead them into the throne room of God. Well, thats a good thing... but how about just enjoying the abundant life Christ has given us too? Enjoy nature... enjoy music... enjoy an art museum... go see Bartle's musical if you live in Chicago... read a good novel... you wont burn in hell.

Krispy

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Some of us have to be careful with certain things. Music is a big weakness for me. There is a great temptation for me to grab a Bob Marley CD and let the rythm take me away, or grab a Pink Floyd CD, or a Beatles CD and get lost in the music. I can get high off music the way some people get high on drugs. It appeals to the flesh.

Anyone who is a musician or just loves music will understand what I'm talking about. I want to be careful not to feed the flesh. that 'old man' would love to rear it's ugly head.

J-bird

J
JoeA

By the way... listening to music for pure enjoyment is OK! Music shouldnt just be for worship.

The words "Love not the world" come to mind.

C
Compton

"Love not the world"

I don't think enjoying music automatically falls in the category of "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life." There are many things in Creation and the Earth that are not the 'World.'

I'm not saying to go against your own conscience but I can certainly imagine Jesus enjoying music sometime during his Earthly life.

MC

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roadsign

An earlier comment:

or the players who have no anointing, deluded into believing they have?

I am a music teacher, and would love to find this special thing called an “anointing”. Maybe I can spare my students of hours of practising, learning, discipline, sweat, perseverance,… Maybe I can even cancel a few choir rehearsals at church, or at least skip the warm-ups.

I am wondering: How does one determine if someone has this “anointing” or not?

Scriptures?

Diane

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roadsign wrote:
An earlier comment:
or the players who have no anointing, deluded into believing they have?

I am a music teacher, and would love to find this special thing called an “anointing”. Maybe I can spare my students of hours of practising, learning, discipline, sweat, perseverance,… Maybe I can even cancel a few choir rehearsals at church, or at least skip the warm-ups.

I am wondering: How does one determine if someone has this “anointing” or not?

Scriptures?

Diane

And you, a teacher??

G
GaryE


Entertainment is not necessarily sinful. There are many things that entertain that are not in themselves sinful. With music, I would especially consider the words spoken in the songs.

The problem I see is that worship and entertainment are two different things. We don’t go to church to be entertained and if entertainment is why we are in church, something is wrong. Congregational singing is worship music that all can be a part of. Much of the Christian entertainment music, even if it has a spiritual base, doesn’t seem to give itself to congregational singing.

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Listen folks... I'm not saying go listen to AC/DC. I assumed everyone understood that we obviously need to make good, spiritual choices when it comes to entertainment. I mentioned read a novel... obviously I was not suggesting Stephen King.

I thought that was obvious, but since it isnt, I hope this clears that up.

As for "annointing"... that has become a Charimatic catch-phrase which basically means "I got goose bumps". There is no mention of annointed music or musicians in scripture. If anyone can find any, I'd love to see it.

Thats like church's that have a "worship pastor". Thats foreign to the church in the NT. Paul talked extensively about the offices of the church... no worship pastors. Instead... all bring a song!

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Listen folks... I'm not saying go listen to AC/DC. I assumed everyone understood that we obviously need to make good, spiritual choices when it comes to entertainment. I mentioned read a novel... obviously I was not suggesting Stephen King.

I thought that was obvious, but since it isnt, I hope this clears that up.

As for "annointing"... that has become a Charimatic catch-phrase which basically means "I got goose bumps". There is no mention of annointed music or musicians in scripture. If anyone can find any, I'd love to see it.

Thats like church's that have a "worship pastor". Thats foreign to the church in the NT. Paul talked extensively about the offices of the church... no worship pastors. Instead... all bring a song!

Krispy

....and All were expected, by Paul, [and Jesus] to be anointed. There is a narrowness in this that must be understood.

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sermonindex

Ormly... I agree with that. I feel like you're picking at fine points for the sake of having something to argue about. Is this true? I dont think you and I are in disagreement on much... why the contention?

Krispy

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roadsign

All were expected, by Paul, [and Jesus] to be anointed

Honestly, I don’t want the certain kind of ‘anointing’ that I hear so much about. I’m convinced that it won’t help me next week when my 13 yo student comes for her piano lesson – the girl whose mom has totally rejected her - who doesn’t care two straws about her daughter’s progress. I need an anointing all right! – especially for that trying 6 yo who is accustomed to pushing adults around, and whose mom needs some lessons in setting boundaries.

Yesterday I told one rather complacent student: I don’t hand out pills (or anointings, as some might call it) that make you a musician. You need to make some serious choices… blah blah blah..

To be honest, I’m convinced that God does not dispense from the sky a special a thing as an “anointing” that magically makes one a good musician, or as some say, an “anointed musician”. (not to discount natural gifted potential)

Oh, there is a kind of anointing that I need: I need patience, I need the love of Christ, and, yes, I continually need humility in order to grow in my skills and musical appreciation. I need to be sitting at the “learner’s desk” - so I can know what it’s like for my students to be given a list of instructions that may seem overwhelming.

I need God, and I need to walk in his mercy daily, so that I can continue to be merciful and patient with the grubby, sniffly, insecure, withdrawn or noisy, awkward little (and big) ones that come to me every day. It’s the same kind of anointing I need when I work with adults in my church. The anointing each of them needs from me is a small sip of Water from the Springs of Living Water. They need to know what Jesus is like as modeled through the way I treat them.


I’m convinced that if we Christian-folk would walk in Christ’s anointing ie, the Spirit (which I suspect is what Ormly refers to), we’d have God-pleasing music in our churches. But we don’t have to wait for that magical day to come in order to be blessed by good music....

When we stop being obsessed about other’s degree of anointing or spiritual condition, and focus on what Christ wants us to be, we are free to appreciate and enjoy all kinds of music that we never heard before. And by the way, there's loads of fabulous music OUTSIDE the church!

Diane


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You said it, Diane... much more eloquent than I could.

We throw the word "annointing" around like it was candy. We get goose bumps when someone sings and we call them "annointed". Based on what? I find most Christian music today to be bland and uninspired... which is kinda what Kerry Livgren was getting at in my original post.

As a football coach I get goose bumps watching a great linebacker sack a quarterback for a 7 yard loss. Does that mean the linebacker was "annointed"? No... that means he has a God given talent that he has worked hard to develop and dial in.

It's interesting that I can listen to the same preacher as someone else... and they can walk away and say "That man was annointed today!" ... and I'm thinking "Wow... that message didnt inspire me at all."

And it's funny to me that a lot of the people who are considered "annointed" preacher/teachers today teach some of the most heretical things.

I think we need to dispense of the Christianeze, and begin doing word studies to really understand the scriptural definition of things... such as what it means to be annointed.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
You said it, Diane... much more eloquent than I could.

We throw the word "annointing" around like it was candy. We get goose bumps when someone sings and we call them "annointed". Based on what? I find most Christian music today to be bland and uninspired... which is kinda what Kerry Livgren was getting at in my original post.

As a football coach I get goose bumps watching a great linebacker sack a quarterback for a 7 yard loss. Does that mean the linebacker was "annointed"? No... that means he has a God given talent that he has worked hard to develop and dial in.

It's interesting that I can listen to the same preacher as someone else... and they can walk away and say "That man was annointed today!" ... and I'm thinking "Wow... that message didnt inspire me at all."

And it's funny to me that a lot of the people who are considered "annointed" preacher/teachers today teach some of the most heretical things.

I think we need to dispense of the Christianeze, and begin doing word studies to really understand the scriptural definition of things... such as what it means to be annointed.

Krispy

By all means, throw the baby out with the bath water.

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sermonindex

Ormly... you're completely misunderstanding everything I'm saying, but perhaps I can clarify something for you?

Krispy

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roadsign

I think we need to dispense of the Christianeze, and begin doing word studies to really understand the scriptural definition of things... such as what it means to be annointed.

Right on! And while we're at it - take a look at the Biblical use of more Christianeze lingo: "worship", "in the Spirit", "sanctuary" ....

... some thoughts for future threads....

Diane

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Yea, or explore some unbiblical Christian concepts that everyone thinks are biblical. Like why do we feel the need to hold worship services in church buildings? Why do we refer to church buildings as "God's House" when scripture clearly teaches that God's temple is not made of wood and stone.

Or... why do Protestants critisize the Catholic Church for it's many pagan rituals and symbols, while Protestants continue to use the same pagan rituals in the observence of the Lord's Supper?

Please dont talk about these things on this thread... this thread is intended to be about art, music and the believer.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ormly... you're completely misunderstanding everything I'm saying, but perhaps I can clarify something for you?

Krispy

I don't believe so, Krispy. What I read in this from you and Diane is that you have a particular antinomian point of view you wish to protect, however hidden under the guise of freedom in the Lord. You do so at great expense to holiness and as a consequence the presence of God. Realizing it seems to be escaping you.

:-(

B
boomatt

hhhhmmmmmmm.....I agree 100% with you Krisp and Diane.

God Bless

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I don't believe so, Krispy. What I read in this from you and Diane is that you have a particular [b]antinomian[/b] point of view you wish to protect, however hidden under the guise of freedom in the Lord. You do so at great expense to holiness and as a consequence the presence of God. Realizing it seems to be escaping you.

Antinomian: "a person who maintains that Christians are freed from the Law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel"

Yea... I can go along with that.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. :-) I'm not going to bother responding to you on this thread anymore as I believe it will only lead to dissention between us.

Let's take the high road here.

Krispy

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roadsign

GaryE wrote:

Much of the Christian entertainment music, even if it has a spiritual base, doesn’t seem to give itself to congregational singing.

This expresses my number one greatest concern with modern church music! Music becomes entertainment simply because that’s about the best one can draw out of it. You can’t sing along with it because it is really styled for pop singers – soloists.

Some songs have a rhythm that is not suitable for congregational singing, or the meter is unpredictable and meandering. Some is in a bad range, or has an unsingable melody line. Of course you can have that problem with any kind of music.

CCM seems to draw the focus to bodily experience rather than to the actual music itself. I’ll bet that you can choose just about any words, and the people will respond exactly the same way. They have disengaged their minds.

Over-produced music, loud instrumentation, too much reliance on mics and praise teams, etc all erode the strength of congregational singing.

I feel that it is the responsibility of those who lead the singing to think about those to whom they are ministering, and not their own preferences, or what the other churches are doing. What kind of mood do you want to create? Do you want the people to close their eyes and feel like they are in a nightclub, or at a party? That is how I would respond to Paul West’s question:

Hey, what do you guys think about playing "blues" in church?

While there is great value in placing solos and ensembles in the service, congregational singing should take priority. It should be a powerful event – something totally different from one’s day by day experience in the world. The value of it is immeasurable. Isaac Watts, Martin Luther and others fought hard to get it into the church. It is tragic that we are letting it slip away. Once the people lose their ability to sing as a corporate body, it’s hard to ever get it back.

Hey folks, we have a huge amount of excellent church music out there - unprecedented in church history. There is no reason to feel distressed about the lack of good music when it is abundant and very available to everyone.

You just have to stop accepting the mediocre and the glitzy - and give up the need for self-gratification.


Diane


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I feel that it is the responsibility of those who lead the singing to think about those to whom they are ministering, and not their own preferences, or what the other churches are doing. What kind of mood do you want to create?

Herein lies the problem: We are to be ministering to the Lord ---- the people. In that light what should our music sound like? -- certainly NOT like the the Rolling Stones....[i]and call it blessed of the Lord.[/i]

Orm

Diane, I included you in my last post. I apologize.

:-(

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Antinomian: "a person who maintains that Christians are freed from the Law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel"

A better definition: One who views holiness as legalism.


:-(

G
GaryE


Brother Ormly,

Krispy and Diane are not Antinomian. I've read to many of their posts to think that of them. Just because one of them or someone else writes something that you don't agree with dose not mean that you should pull that word out of your pocket. You call me that and you might as well be cursing me.

In Christ,
GaryE

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Compton

Krispy and Roadsign's concern over the popular conception of 'annointing' is well founded. There may be a biblical precedent for 'the annointing' but today it is used as a distraction or even a substitute for being born again. Also the popular idea that certain men are 'annointed' of God for public ministry is really a reflection of the church's spiritual immaturity and lack of inward character.

Like I said, in our present age, the popular desire for the 'annointing' has replaced the rugged call "You must be born again!" In the least being born again into the image and likeness of Christ has been cheapened by our flash-pan annointings. For instance, Diane was talking about discipline and hard work...these are Christ-like character traits but most Christians today have mistrust and contempt for sweat...as if anything that does not supernaturally fall on a Christian is fleshly striving.

To tie all of this to music, consider the example of the hard working JS Bach. Nothing in modern western music escapes this man's shadow...and his achievement was no doubt tied to his radical faith in the newly rediscovered Gospel of the reformation. New scholarship reveals that even in the most private and almost secretly coded levels in his music composition, he worked hard to worship God with the talents entrusted to him. It did not seem to matter to him that all was not seen by "public" eyes.

Oh that we would believe that the spiritual man is not he who 'comes under the annointing" when in public ministry, but he who has the character and mind of Christ when no one is watching...such a man may not give us goosebumps but he pleases God.

MC

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'the annointing' … today it is used as a distraction or even a substitute for being born again.

Really nothing has changed – just the lingo.

I remember in my youth (35 yrs ago) – no one could sing in the choir unless they were born again. That was a noble criterion, I admit. But even back then the criteria for being born again was fast slipping. Now, looking back, I can see that some (probably many) had asked the church into their hearts to be their savior (unconsciously, of course).

I can remember, as a music coordinator, being scolded for inviting singers who were “obviously” not born again, or who had done something bad 30 years ago in another town. (How was I supposed to know!!) Really the hidden self-talk went more like this: “They don’t seem like one of us.” or “They don’t sing in the style I expect (hymns and gospel-style)”. I felt that many-a worshipper missed the blessing of magnificent music, because they were so totally occupied with suspicious-laden character evaluation – wondering if the person really met the criteria of a “born-againer”.

That leads me to what has always been the touchy issue: Just who do we permit on the platform? Let’s admit, it is often almost impossible to distinguish the born- againers from the mimikers? In our pharisaic religious practise, we end up gravitating towards the mimikers.

I fear that still today the church creates a sub-culture, and then tries to keep THAT “pure”. And so the criteria for “only those who are anointed” comes to mean, “fit our expectations”. (Yes, even a contemporary Bach would never “fit” today.)

So how does one make decisions when placed in an un-ideal situation? Where I serve, if I attempted to exclude all who were likely not born again, I'd have no choir, and I would be turfed. God didn’t put me there to exclude all sinners, but to draw them towards the Light THROUGH the ministry of music. I have learned to let God guide me, and TRUST that he knows what he is doing.

I have some important criteria: ability, responsibility, and the absence of an obvious “I” in the middle of their forehead. A humble attitude, and respect for the sacred things of God creates an atmosphere where the Good News can be proclaimed, unhindered, through the message in song.

The platform (a human invention, by the way!) is not a place to show off how 'anointed' one is, but to wash people's dirty feet (in other words, serve).

Diane

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Compton wrote:
Krispy and Roadsign's concern over the popular conception of 'annointing' is well founded. There may be a biblical precedent for 'the annointing' but today it is used as a distraction or even a substitute for being born again. Also the popular idea that certain men are 'annointed' of God for public ministry is really a reflection of the church's spiritual immaturity and lack of inward character.

Like I said, in our present age, the popular desire for the 'annointing' has replaced the rugged call "You must be born again!" In the least being born again into the image and likeness of Christ has been cheapened by our flash-pan annointings. For instance, Diane was talking about discipline and hard work...these are Christ-like character traits but most Christians today have mistrust and contempt for sweat...as if anything that does not supernaturally fall on a Christian is fleshly striving.

To tie all of this to music, consider the example of the hard working JS Bach. Nothing in modern western music escapes this man's shadow...and his achievement was no doubt tied to his radical faith in the newly rediscovered Gospel of the reformation. New scholarship reveals that even in the most private and almost secretly coded levels in his music composition, he worked hard to worship God with the talents entrusted to him. It did not seem to matter to him that all was not seen by "public" eyes.

Oh that we would believe that the spiritual man is not he who 'comes under the annointing" when in public ministry, but he who has the character and mind of Christ when no one is watching...such a man may not give us goosebumps but he pleases God.

MC

Absolutely!

Question: Could Bach be played in church today, regardless of how well known his faith in God is made known, how well the "anointing"?

Answer: No. It wouldn't sustain the crowd [congregation].

Lets try another: How about Fanny Crosby and the many hymns she wrote, no doubt in my mind by the anointing?

Answer: again, sadly, No.

I've been told by "worship leaders": "Thats not where we want to go".

It is delusional to believe what is given as worship music in the church today is unto God --- delusional thinking to believe it is anything other than more of God abhored man's reasoning presented to please man.

Once, just once, to hear again the resounding sounding of the mighty organ playing, with the congregation singing at the top of their voices: "All Hail The Power of Jesus Name!"

How it must grieve Father that our senstivity to Him, is no more than disregarded presumption; thoughtless-ness considering what is and is not acceptable to Him.

Orm

Please keep in mind that I am long time Pentecostal. I have been in church when for over 4-5 hrs we worshipped in order with music and gifts and the Holy Spirit was sweet. The Pastor never preached a sermon --- didn't need to nor could he.

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A better definition: One who views holiness as legalism.

I know I said I wouldnt respond to Ormly anymore on this thread so as to avoid dissention... but I had to laugh when I read that... I've been called a legalist so many times on here (by folks who dont know what a real legalist is!), and now I've been called to exact opposite!

It kinda bolsters what I said earlier... what some consider annointed, others dont. What some dont consider annointed... others do.

:-? :-?

Krispy

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For what it may be worth I offer this with my comment:

Antinomianism (from the Greek αντι, "against" + νομος, "law"), or lawlessness (in the Greek Bible: ανομια), 1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation
2 : one who rejects a socially established morality. [Websters]

In theology, it is the idea that members of a particular religious group are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality as presented by religious authorities. Antinomianism is the polar opposite of legalism, the notion that obedience to a code of religious law is necessary for salvation. [from the booklet "Beyond Pentecost"]

Generally this opinion is arrived at because of a poor understanding of God’s Grace given us, *to enter to profit at learning intimacy. Rather than see God’s grace as something to enter they, the Antinomians, have seen fit to bring it out of its place of Holiness and Provision to place it upon their uncommitted flesh as an outer garment to be presumptuously worn as a testimony to be seen of men. They make God’s Grace out to be a mask. [My personal note]

Orm

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This thread really isnt about what kind of music is appropriate in worship. It seems we can never never have a discussion on here about music as an art form... as an expression... as a gift... without it turning into a discussion about the inappropriateness of music in a worship setting.

Do people really believe that we can not just enjoy music for the sake of enjoying music? Putting limitations on music is exactly what makes it so bland and uninsprired. Hasnt anyone here (besides me) just put some music on just for the enjoyment of it?

Ormly mentioned Bach. I grew up on heavy metal in the 80's... and I love Bach. I also love John Coltrain. I love all kinds of music. Some styles are appropriate for worship services... some styles are good for enjoyment. There is noting sinful about that!

When my wife and I farm the kids out for an evening and we're alone at home for a nice romantic dinner by the fire place... I dont put on Petra. Nor do I put on worship music. I generally put on jazz. Different styles for different moods... different styles for different atmospheres.

What do people listen to in December? Christmas music. You dont hear much Christmas music on July 4th.

Oi... people! C'mon! Live life a little! Jesus said He would give us life and life more abundant. Try enjoying it a little.

And no, I am not even coming close to saying that we listen to music with trashy lyrics, or become worldly minded. Everything we do needs to be done as unto the Lord. Everyone here should know where I stand on that.

All I'm saying is lets be honest.

Krispy

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Ormly... if you're going to use "Antinomianism" to describe me, then all I have to say is that you're speaking out of ignorance.

Personally I find it offensive that you would just casually lump me into that category, because it is not what I believe at all.

Besides, we're not even talking about moral issues here. We're talking about creativity, music, etc.

You've been here long enough to know where I stand on a plethura of issues. I would suggest you go back and review everything I've posted about on this site.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ormly... if you're going to use "Antinomianism" to describe me, then all I have to say is that you're speaking out of ignorance.

Personally I find it offensive that you would just casually lump me into that category, because it is not what I believe at all.

Besides, we're not even talking about moral issues here. We're talking about creativity, music, etc.

You've been here long enough to know where I stand on a plethura of issues. I would suggest you go back and review everything I've posted about on this site.

Krispy

Yes I know. I didn't mean it as a slap. However, everyone get get caught off guard in their thinking, Krispy, even me. When we like certain things outside the camp for reasons that sound right or produce certain, what we FEEL is God honoring, results, we easily begin to seek to justify them. The Bible will accomodate us if we don't study carefully enough.

Orm

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Ok... in the spirit of trying to come to an understanding... where do you think I am veering off course here? Is there something wrong with putting on some classical music, or perhaps some jazz music, and simply sitting in surround-sound and enjoying the music? What am I missing here?

And where in all of this have I suggested that we forsake holiness, and justify doing so?

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ok... in the spirit of trying to come to an understanding... where do you think I am veering off course here? Is there something wrong with putting on some classical music, or perhaps some jazz music, and simply sitting in surround-sound and enjoying the music? What am I missing here?
A cautionary note. If the music is Christian what are you looking for when listening --- good sounds or something that takes you in your heart to Christ? Does the music allow that or are the sounds such that you can't hear anything but the guy on the drums or the distorted guitar? I call that inhibiting.

And where in all of this have I suggested that we forsake holiness, and justify doing so?
Krispy

You haven't --- however, I haven't read where you recognize that the "little foxes" are eating the vine. What are little foxes except man's reasoning being let in to spoil the unction of the Holy Spirit. Ever hear the word dissimulation? A very subtle happening that inhibits sincere worship and needs an excuse to continue; a dripping allowed by the unlearned or disobedient leadership permiting the uncommitted/unrepentent to participate in ministry with the hope of "bringing them to Jesus" through involvement. Thats wrong and we haven't converted them. They have converted us. The church is full up with the music of the world that Father can't allow in to His Holy presence. Ergo, it's worthless as in evil.

Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Orm

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A cautionary note. If the music is Christian what are you looking for when listening --- good sounds or something that takes you in your heart to Christ? Does the music allow that or are the sounds such that you can't hear anything but the guy on the drums or the distorted guitar? I call that inhibiting.

Who's to say that enjoying good music just because it's good isnt drawing close to God? He is a creative God... look around you. All good gifts come from above. Drums and guitars... a symphony... matters not to me. Both are capable of creating good music... and bad music. Styles is not an issue with me. If it is with you, than I chalk that up to personal tastes. Too many people confuse preferences for convictions.

You haven't --- however, I haven't read where you recognize that the "little foxes" are eating the vine.

Hmmm... you might start by reviewing the over 2,300 posts I've made to this site... you rookie, you. :-) Others have, and thats why they have come to my defense concerning your impression that I care not for holiness.

(You're barking up the wrong tree)

Krispy

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roadsign

the "little foxes" are eating the vine.

Ormly, You certainly express a genuine concern. It also seems that you are much more hopeful that me. To me the “little foxes” have already eaten much of the vine. I'm not sure how much we can fix by trying to catch up with all the foxes now that the damage is done.

Meanwhile, the big lions are prowling around, garbed in angelic robes, “qualifications”, convincing evangelical lingo…. and the henhouse door is opened wide to them by those who run our institutions. That's outside of our control. We who scratch near the ground, are not the "powers-that-be regarding the most serious issues.

In fact, our measly attempts to catch foxes reminds me of the law enforcers who go after the teen who steels a chocolate bar from the corner store, while the institutionalized banks are robbing millions of dollars from the population - all “sanctified” by government. (not to discredit the need to enforce civil law!)

Now if I were God, I’d pull the plug on it all, shut the whole thing down, maybe just work with house churches. (Of course, then you’d never hear great organs with mass congregations singing Bach or Fanny Crosby.)

Shutdown day may come via persecution. Or our churches may become merely pawns for government. Meanwhile, we work with the hand of clay God has assigned us - in our existing historical moment.

We continue to draw near to him and let him work in our own lives. That’s the best way to make any impact. I optimistically believe that there are many musicians or other who are doing just that in our churches.

I will continue to be blessed by great expressions of music, and will give glory to God for the endowment he has given mankind. I will do my part, as he leads, in working with others, both saved and unsaved in creating quality music in the communities and churches.

And I trust that a few flickers of Light will shine through the cracks.

(For me, it's not worth getting in knots over the masses who crave their bubble-gum music.)

Diane

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
A cautionary note. If the music is Christian what are you looking for when listening --- good sounds or something that takes you in your heart to Christ? Does the music allow that or are the sounds such that you can't hear anything but the guy on the drums or the distorted guitar? I call that inhibiting.

Who's to say that enjoying good music just because it's good isnt drawing close to God? He is a creative God... look around you. All good gifts come from above. Drums and guitars... a symphony... matters not to me. Both are capable of creating good music... and bad music. Styles is not an issue with me. If it is with you, than I chalk that up to personal tastes. Too many people confuse preferences for convictions.

You haven't --- however, I haven't read where you recognize that the "little foxes" are eating the vine.

Hmmm... you might start by reviewing the over 2,300 posts I've made to this site... you rookie, you. :-) Others have, and thats why they have come to my defense concerning your impression that I care not for holiness.

(You're barking up the wrong tree)

Krispy

What pleases God is the issue. Are you prepared to say that your indifference to this matter of music presented Him is ok with Him?

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What pleases God is the issue. Are you prepared to say that your indifference to this matter of music presented Him is ok with Him?

Like I said... try getting to know me before you paint me indifferent to the things of God. Thats just rediculous, and you should know better by now. You've been here long enough.

I'm gonna stop this back and forth with you because it appears that you just want to argue. I have better things to do with my time.

Love ya, bro...

Krispy

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roadsign wrote:
the "little foxes" are eating the vine.

Ormly, You certainly express a genuine concern. It also seems that you are much more hopeful that me. To me the “little foxes” have already eaten much of the vine. I'm not sure how much we can fix by trying to catch up with all the foxes now that the damage is done.

Meanwhile, the big lions are prowling around, garbed in angelic robes, “qualifications”, convincing evangelical lingo…. and the henhouse door is opened wide to them by those who run our institutions. That's outside of our control. We who scratch near the ground, are not the "powers-that-be regarding the most serious issues.

In fact, our measly attempts to catch foxes reminds me of the law enforcers who go after the teen who steels a chocolate bar from the corner store, while the institutionalized banks are robbing millions of dollars from the population - all “sanctified” by government. (not to discredit the need to enforce civil law!)

Now if I were God, I’d pull the plug on it all, shut the whole thing down, maybe just work with house churches. (Of course, then you’d never hear great organs with mass congregations singing Bach or Fanny Crosby.)

Shutdown day may come via persecution. Or our churches may become merely pawns for government. Meanwhile, we work with the hand of clay God has assigned us - in our existing historical moment.

We continue to draw near to him and let him work in our own lives. That’s the best way to make any impact. I optimistically believe that there are many musicians or other who are doing just that in our churches.

I will continue to be blessed by great expressions of music, and will give glory to God for the endowment he has given mankind. I will do my part, as he leads, in creating quality music in the communities and churches. And I trust that a few flickers of Light will shine through the cracks.

For me, it's not worth getting in knots over the masses who crave their bubble-gum music.

Diane

Indeed, Diane. Its the toleration of the mixture that should be noted as the handicap we face and have to submit to if we are to "get along", not in the name of Christ but in the name of unity and consideration for the seeker who will only remain if his/hers self-satisfying sensibilties are placated. Sad that "purpose driven" leadership believes whatever the success in this is of a God ordained Spirit of Christ. What delusion to believe a spiked-haired rock band can do for the church that which Christ can only do. No, it won't go back into the bottle.
We, who understand what the issues are, must just continue to speak against the prevailing Nicolaitane thinking and let it fall where it will with the hope that some will be rescued. Jesus came with a sword in His hand. Cutting hurts and the cutting must begin in the house of God. What post modern church will embrace this? Few at best and one that I can think of.


Orm

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
What pleases God is the issue. Are you prepared to say that your indifference to this matter of music presented Him is ok with Him?

Like I said... try getting to know me before you paint me indifferent to the things of God. Thats just rediculous, and you should know better by now. You've been here long enough.

I'm gonna stop this back and forth with you because it appears that you just want to argue. I have better things to do with my time.

Love ya, bro...

Krispy

My point is to make one, not to argue. Regretable you see it as me arguing just to argue. I desire that all would see the subtley of it all and how even the elect can be hoodwinked by well meaning Christian enterprize.

You might want to think about what I asked.

;-)

P
PTywama3

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

Oh, my! Certainly not holy! Modern music? My Lord, and how inappropriately dressed!

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PTywama3 wrote:
2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

Oh, my! Certainly not holy! Modern music? My Lord, and how inappropriately dressed!

To the contrary, the Linen ephod was representative of the Priestly garment of the Holy Spirit. Oh that we should have such intimacy with the Lord that we would dance in the Holy Spirit before Him.

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PTywama3

Krispy, I'm with ya all the way.

I've got me almost a decade in organised music (large scale) in which we did not actively promote the faith. We did play nifty little pieces like Ave Maria, but for the argument that its sacrilegious to a protestant... I already know.

For starters... let's look around.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Well, whad'ya know. God made birds. I'm not horribly sure if we're all aware, here, but a great many species of "fowl" use vocals (most specifically that of the male) in order to mate. Well, hold on! I think that might just mean that God intended for there to be a "music" in the world for as long as birds flew. Maybe God likes listening to music. 'Course birds aren't Christian. (sarcasm)

If you aren't aware, I'm being horribly sarcastic 'cause we missed Krispy's whole point in a damnably predictable fashion. God made the world, and a great many ideas in the "world" aren't really man's ideas at all... they're an adaption of what God intended. To love the world... well, I hate to say it, but I do. I'm an avid hiker, I love to watch the unsuspecting deer dash through the woods at my approach, to see the black bear sitting on the mountainside wondering whether or not my pack will be low enough to pillage later that night. I love to listen to the sound of the brook and the river at 3 AM, and I certainly marvel at the mountain peaks and the vantage points they offer. If that makes me sinful... well, I should blame God, 'cause he gave it to man to tender.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And so I have, in my own small way. I have performed dutifully in making a sound as great and with greater emphasis than that of the mighty eagle! I can, with the use of my instrument, cry farther! And how it can be used to sing! Aye, but the appreciation for this modern music is not so bad for that poor bully blue jay, who sings a song so like the jays before him, but to which his memory has no value. Or to the robin he just pushed out of the way, more eloquent and with a prettier voice, but with the same darn story.

I mean, the abjection of ability is such a deterioration of the human race. The ascended man has no need of great musical talent. The extent of his voice should be the worship of God, in a humble fashion, so as not to bring notice to himself should others overhear him. (sarcasm)

Let's get back on point, in any regard. This is a spiritual site, with spiritual emphasis. Christians should regard music as an important, crucial thing. Yet we bicker because we don't like what we hear (pun intended, as well.) The point that Krispy and his post was trying to make was that music is deteriorating. Unfortunately, Ormly, you had to go and disagree so as to appear trying to be mightier than the formidable Krispy (regardless of your intent.) Also unfortunately, you both expressed the same point. Rather futile, even if you don't think so. Except you "slandered" him in the process. The only difference is you see unholiness rather than degradation - a bit like tunnel vision from an observer's standpoint. Sorry. As for all you music teachers, God bless you people! I know how I treated mine ;)

Music is a changing thing, in the western world. But we often fail to link things the way we should, or see causes. So maybe we could try to do that.

Why is music changing? Maybe a lot of it happened when we lost the modern poet. They dropped their pens and picked up microphones, and the whole darn thing cascaded - the words came first. There are still a few diligent souls out there with batons, but history isn't kind to innovation (especially musical innovation,) and I doubt it'll change on our dime. Most of your great composers struggled with their music, and (as especially true with the baroque period) came to be greatly admired quite often after their own deaths.

To switch tracks yet again, has anybody considered where we derive our musical taste in worship from? Even the hymns stem from a great many musical emphases whose originators were Christian only by birthright. The modern piano or guitar pieces rely pretty heavily on American folk... or the precursor country if you'd like to think of it that way. Even Hendrix gets in the mix. But alas, these things are holy. Just like Christmas. The concept that the ideas that bled them are unworthy of at least respect is a bit like saying that Adam should be sent to hell. It just doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, I'm trying to cover what is a commonly held viewpoint of misconception among musicians of the populace as a whole, and there is a great deal of ground to cover. Also, I work graveyard now, and my time of slumber is rapidly approaching (far too early.) As always, I know just about everyone is gonna want to disagree with me, because I often speak in riddles where plain words won't do justice. So if you need to ask a question, I'm hoping that Roadsign or KrispKritter will be gracious enough to try to pick them up (both obviously love music... a thing not to be taken lightly, as love and infatuation are entirely different subjects.) I'm also hoping both of you don't shake your head at me, but that's a chance I'm gonna have to take. :)

One last final point...


To the contrary, the Linen ephod was representative of the Priestly garment of the Holy Spirit. Oh that we should have such intimacy with the Lord that we would dance in the Holy Spirit before Him.

Well, not true, really, 'cause it was worn inappropriately. As in, out of place, not in the proper fashion. Not according to the rules that were set before him, which is what got him into the mess he's at this point getting out of, anyway. And the point was that what one saw as holy, another scorned (and, as the story goes, became barren.) We know what was right, because the past is apparently much easier to read than the present or future. And David was supposed to be the one doing proper things, which is a bit along the side of ludicrous. But how alike it is to what we are discussing, no? Nothing on the modern music? I'm a bit shocked. Quite honestly, as for your expecting others to be able to read your veiled comments, I'm surprised you couldn't draw that conclusion.

C
Compton

I wanted to add another name to my earlier list of modern serious music composers that I think Kerry Livgren would find as a welcome exception to his justifiable concern.

Henryk Gorecki is a Polish composer who has found some measure of popular acceptance even though his music is known as an expression of his country's misery in the 20th century. The first movement from [url=http://www.amazon.com/Henryk-Gorecki-Symphony-Sorrowful-Songs/dp/B000005J1C/ref=cm_sylt_fullview_prod_37/103-6582526-8001432/103-6582526-8001432]Symphony 3 "Sorrowful Songs"[/url] has no words, but is one of the most prayer-like intonation of sadness and hope I have ever heard. Great soundtrack for reading the Psalms or Lamentations...

MC

S
sermonindex

Well, not true, really, 'cause it was worn inappropriately. As in, out of place, not in the proper fashion. Not according to the rules that were set before him, which is what got him into the mess he's at this point getting out of, anyway.

What rules. What fashion?

And the point was that what one saw as holy, another scorned (and, as the story goes, became barren.) We know what was right, because the past is apparently much easier to read than the present or future. And David was supposed to be the one doing proper things, which is a bit along the side of ludicrous.

.....that is according to man's reasoning, or yours..

But how alike it is to what we are discussing, no? Nothing on the modern music? I'm a bit shocked. Quite honestly, as for your expecting others to be able to read your veiled comments, I'm surprised you couldn't draw that conclusion.

Sorry, but I don't get your point. In regards to Krispy, I really have no argument with Him. I agree with what he wrote, i.e., music is degenerating both in the secular realm and spiritual realm. That is something I saw many years ago. Those of God are now coming around to see it also.

Re David: Michal scorned him because he danced and, in her opinion, looked foolish. That's what is pointed out to be the issue. David, a King, rejoiced before the Lord as a child who loves his father would do. He was a man after God's own heart, not inhibited by what man might think of him.

P
PTywama3

What rules. What fashion?

According to Exodus 28, the ephod was fashioned for Aaron and his sons, as a concecrated item. David was a king, not a priest. Broken rule.
.....that is according to man's reasoning, or yours..

Ah, the logic! The bible is interpreted on all accounts, and spoken of, with the reasoning of man! Ever it is so, and to a great extent the Gospels prove it. Christ was not kind to the holy men who interpreted scripture according to holy standards, and they ever thought it to be done right. It is also refuted with the reasoning of man, and this is a cop-out answer (if ever there was one) because, quite honestly, you are but a man as well. I can give you a good number of scriptures where David made horrendous mistakes and their scriptural proof if you would like, the first of which will be him moving the Ark on a cart drawn by oxen to lead into this whole event. If that be man's reasoning, then I am sorely at fault.

Re David: Michal scorned him because he danced and, in her opinion, looked foolish. That's what is pointed out to be the issue. David, a King, rejoiced before the Lord as a child who loves his father would do. He was a man after God's own heart, not inhibited by what man might think of him.
David was a polygamist and a sulker. His psalms are often bitter, and present such a quality as we would call melodramatic, trivialize, and even disapprove of today. But they are in the bible, and above reproach. And he was...
a man after God's own heart, not inhibited by what man might think of him...
...which is something we are so most definitely not supposed to do here. I'm pretty sure Michal wasn't the only one who thought him foolish, and I'd bet I'm not the only person to note his liberal use of the ephod.

Sorry, but I don't get your point. In regards to Krispy, I really have no argument with Him.

Well, I guess I overstepped my bounds, here. Having reread some of your posts, I must admit you did acknowledge this aspect of it. But I guess you just don't believe he took the whole thing far enough. Of course, you were constantly comparing his words with bands like the Rolling Stones, which for all appearances is a bit of an assumption, and is probably where my sentiment came from. Yet you also called him an antinomanist for reasoning on a common thread - which was loosely linked to the whole subject - because of diction. Not inappropriate diction, either. But again, I did overstep my bounds, and I appologize.

Aye, does anyone agree with my somewhat hidden point, that we hear more a kind of musical poetry, and not music proper?

C
Compton

Hi PTywama3,

does anyone agree with my somewhat hidden point, that we hear more a kind of musical poetry, and not music proper?

Could you give an example of each for comparison?

Thanks,

MC

S
sermonindex

According to Exodus 28, the ephod was fashioned for Aaron and his sons, as a concecrated item. David was a king, not a priest. Broken rule.

Nor was he ministering unto the Lord but rejoicing in Him.

The wearing of Linen was a requirement for entering the most Holy place by the priest' who were the only ones allowed to enter. It was never intended nor restricted for anything else, in the Lord. Outside that requirement that the priest MUST wear it for entrance, David violated nothing by wearing it as he danced in rejoicing, before the Lord. He was not being presumptous for which he later was rebuked for being so by his head counting.

David was a man after God's own Heart. Perhaps you might enlighten me and others as to why you believe that to be a true considering your objections to what you would have one believe, by your words, to the contrary.

P
PTywama3

To Ormly,

I think you're missing the point. David was mixing messages. He sacrificed before the ark as he moved it, and there is no reason to assume he was not acting as a priest in such regards. He then paraded in open ground about in front of the ark as it was moved into the city. He was acting as priest, and was not in a proper place to do so. In such regard, he was using the ephod liberally. Maybe not unjustly, but liberally, and against common custom. The ephod wasn't used to enter the most Holy place; for there were breeches fashioned for such just to cover the priest's nakedness. The ephod was for their entrance and exit from the Holy place, i.e. the tent's first inner chamber.

I never said David wasn't a man after God's own heart, as I so often hear otherwise, but that he was a man who made a great many mistakes (or intentionally broke rules) in regards to written tradition and law. Holiness in place of lawfulness?

To Compton,

A musical poet - say Relient K or Brad Paisley...

"Music proper" - John Williams, his soundtracks for so many different things, Glenn Miller's compositions, Howard Shore's works in The Lord of the Rings...

Generally,

I don't know of any mainstream modern poets. A basic poetic form is noticeable in modern music. Now it seems we have an abundance of novelists and singers, but not many poets of the pen.

It might be easier to liken this particular "music" to "song," and call the "artists" "minstrels1" or "troubadors1." Minstrels were accustomed to song, but their style was bent more on words than music. We just have an exceeding number of them. And a skilled minstrel is still a minstrel. Minstrels were generally regarded as poets. Much of this debate is (as always) based on diction, and the common man's (our predecessors and what our politicians strive to emulate) emphasis on simplification. It seems to have always been thus.

Here, too, technology is a bear, because it has made acquiring the essentials for "artistry" so much easier. No longer is it a thing solely for the determined, but is also available most quietly to the persistent in an affordable fashion. Fortunately for myself, I don't always see this as a bad thing.

There are a dutiful number of composers still out there, most of them (as always) still writing as accompaniment to entertainment (be it to smalltalk, dancing, or to movies/plays.)

I also don't think it fair to assume a change in musical pattern so often as we would like. We had one, with the ushering of the big band and jazz era. Usually they take a century or better to work out.
...............................

I should write a disclaimer as a signature, suggesting my masculine phrasing is often intended for reference to race, and not gender. Hope that works for this post.

1. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1). Retrieved November 05, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com

C
Compton

Thanks PT,

I'm sure there are several that I am not aware of but I have always found Michael Card to fit the description you gave. In fact he not only ties poetry and storytelling together well in his song writing, but also rich theology.

Here, too, technology is a bear, because it has made acquiring the essentials for "artistry" so much easier

It seems every budding musician has their own midi seqencer and protools studio these days. Craft is replaced with software. Some say that digital technology has democratized the arts, but this leveling of the field has also diluted the standards for artmanship.

In other words, everyone with nothing to say is now saying it. ;-)

Blessings,

MC

C
Compton

Just a brief insert here...

I was getting a quick cup of coffee from our local shop when I noticed a flier from a church youth group advertising a Christian Rock concert.

Beneath the headline and color copy photo of some young thrashers there was the tongue in cheek text...

"Warning: May cause loss of hearing."

Just a light-hearted joke I know, but I couldn't help but notice the spiritual contrast to this...

"Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped"

MC

S
sermonindex

I think you're missing the point. David was mixing messages. He sacrificed before the ark as he moved it, and there is no reason to assume he was not acting as a priest in such regards. He then paraded in open ground about in front of the ark as it was moved into the city. He was acting as priest, and was not in a proper place to do so. In such regard, he was using the ephod liberally. Maybe not unjustly, but liberally, and against common custom. The ephod wasn't used to enter the most Holy place; for there were breeches fashioned for such just to cover the priest's nakedness. The ephod was for their entrance and exit from the Holy place, i.e. the tent's first inner chamber.


I stand corrected. I was thinking too much all things linen and was not careful to make proper distinctions.

Having said that and fully realizing in his life as king, David made many mistakes in judgment, where is this instant was the rebuke from God, assuming of course one should have been forthcoming? Since none came we can assume David was not out of order especially considering how he was handled by God because other disobediences?

No, in this, I see him as both King and Priest, a type of Christ with all the reason to justify what would seem to be presumption.


S
sermonindex


Whatta think of this one for a church halloween thing for young people?

"Only three days left until our Holy Ghost Weenie Roast! All youth and adults who have signed up to help with the games, we would like to have your help in decorating the rooms at 4:00 p.m. on Saturday. It will be a fun time, and will get us into the mood for the fun-filled evening! We look forward to seeing you soon!"

R
roadsign


Holy Ghost Weenie Roast!


Warning: May cause loss of hearing.

My aren’t we just so cool –we evangelicals!

Church is going to the dogs for sure. I mean literally. The Anglican Church on my street had a “Bless our Pets” Sunday, and everyone brought their pets to be blessed by the priest. … So which denomination is on the steepest slippery slide?

Back to the hearing-loss warning … My husband adds his own thought: “They may as well announce on the poster that drugs are available at the concert.” …. How about special drugs to heighten one’s spiritual experience?

And now, on a better note (literally speaking) …

The 13 yo (from an RC home) whom I mentioned earlier in a post, whose mother has rejected her, showed up in church, and approached me to say, “Hi!” Then she casually mentioned that she had her music bag … just in case…. I was deeply touched! So together, unplanned, we played from her “Favorite Hymns Level 1” a four-hand rendition of All Things Bright and Beautiful - with all the stops pulled on the pipe organ. We rocked the church! And I think God was smiling.

What is so exiting to me is that none of us church folk are doing anything cool to draw in the young people. We don’t even use Power Point! And we’re certainly not the ideal, spiritually. But here was a young person who came, and brought along her two mites, and laid them on the altar.

Praise God!

Diane

P
PaulWest

This may be off the topic a bit...but what would you think if your pastor decided to host Dave Ramsey's popular 13-week "Financial Peace University" program in your church?

(edit) And charge $90.00 per family to attend.

Perhaps this topic warrants a whole new thread.

Brother Paul

C
Compton

Paul,

Charging a hefty fee for a financial advice seminar reminds me of my favorite peanuts (Charlie Brown) cartoon.

Linus walks up to Lucy who has a sign on her lemondade stand that reads :"Learn how to get rich---5 Dollars." So linus reaches into his pocket and pulls out a 5 dollar bill. Lucy takes the money, and then stares the other direction without saying anything.

Linus waits a second and then asks "Hey where's my lesson?"

Lucy hold's out her hand again for more money and says "Pay attention this time."

MC

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Compton wrote:
Paul,

Charging a hefty fee for a financial advice seminar reminds me of my favorite peanuts (Charlie Brown) cartoon.

Linus walks up to Lucy who has a sign on her lemondade stand that reads :"Learn how to get rich---5 Dollars." So linus reaches into his pocket and pulls out a 5 dollar bill. Lucy takes the money, and then stares the other direction without saying anything.

Linus waits a second and then asks "Hey where's my lesson?"

Lucy hold's out her hand again for more money and says "Pay attention this time."

MC

Bottom line is always you have to give more.

P
PaulWest

Lucy hold's out her hand again for more money and says "Pay attention this time."

:-P Great!

Well, okay, I see your point. But what if the $90.00 were for the books and materials, and the church wasn't making a profit? Do you think this seminar-styled financial wisdom stuff has a place in the chuch? Is anyone familiar with Dave Ramsey's "financial make-over" books and nationally-syndicated radio talk show?

C
Compton

“Bless our Pets” Sunday

I can't decide whether to laugh or weep over that one! I'll get back to you on my decision.

One of our problems is that we tell everyone that we don't 'love the world' and then go out and make cheap copies of everything in the world.

Instead of celebrating Halloween, we have 'harvest parties'.

Instead of rebelling with Rock we have Christian rock.

Instead of financial investment seminars we have Biblical stewardship seminars.

Instead of drinking Scotch to relax we have Nyquil...you know who you are.

Instead of scant sensual clothing we wear...wait a minute... we still use the original for that one.

The message to the world is that we are hiding a void in our hearts for the world.

MC

C
Compton

But what if the $90.00 was for the books and material, and the church wasn't making a profit?

I was just making a silly joke...I'm sure there is a valid reason for the cost. Many of us certainly could use some help with financial wisdom.

Blessings bro,

MC

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PTywama3

No, in this, I see him as both King and Priest, a type of Christ with all the reason to justify what would seem to be presumption.

Aye, fair enough.

S
sermonindex


PTywama3 wrote:
No, in this, I see him as both King and Priest, a type of Christ with all the reason to justify what would seem to be presumption.

Aye, fair enough.

:-D

R
roadsign

Is anyone familiar with Dave Ramsey's "financial make-over" books and nationally-syndicated radio talk show?

?


Is it the Jesus- way? If it is, then how did it get to be popular?

Diane

P
PaulWest

Hi Diane,

Is it the Jesus- way?

I don't really think it is, and evidently I seem to be in a large [i]minority[/i] with these convictions. I mean, you do an internet search and this guy's teachings on financial wisdom are all the rave. Multitudes of churches are hosting his seminar, and I know a church that has just recently joined the bandwagon (okay, I can't be cryptic any more - it's [i]my[/i] church!) I just can't imagine Spurgeon hosting something like this, or Wesley cracking goofy jokes and teaching people who are disobedient to the Word of God how to amass wealth and live the American dream, debt-free. It's not right, I believe, and is yet another blatant indicator of the sad, sad state of the church today. Ten churches in my little city alone are hosting this how-to-get-out-of-debt-and-be-wealthy stuff; I wonder how many other churches in Dallas, Lubbock, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Santa Fe?

I'm perplexed. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for wisdom and good stewardship over finances, but I just can't put my thumb on why this doesn't sit right. Is anyone familiar with his "Financial Peace University" program?

I also heard (in defense of these types of Christian money-management programs) that Jesus taught more about money than any other topic in the NT - more than prayer, hell, heaven, holiness, etc. Money, and the management thereof. Hosea 4:6 was also used to show that God's children need to acquire "financial" wisdom so as to not be destroyed. I always thought that that verse had to do with knowledge of the law.

I do not want to make a mistake of being overly critical with this. I have already said enough. Some humble feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Brother Paul

C
Compton

For what it's worth, whever I am listening to Christian radio and I hear one of these money-ministries start thier marketing spiel... I find myself reaching for the dial everytime before they get to that part where they tell us:"There are more verses in the bible about money then any other topic. Over 2, 345 verses...obviously Jesus felt money was important. Call our ministry and we'll blah blah..."

I can tell you, if I wanted sound financial advice I would get it from a professional friend or at least a friend I knew was competent in these matters. True learning from others in areas of finance or business takes years with a trusted mentor and example...not some 'power packed' weekend course.

If our church was hosting a trade show for some Christian business thinly designed as a ministry I can tell you I would stay home that night.

My 2 cents of financial contribution here ;-)

(Can I get a write-off?)

MC

(Krispy...in case you're just returning to discover what we've done with your thread...well I can't think of a good excuse! You know how we are here!:-P)

P
PaulWest

There are more verses in the bible about money then any other topic. Over 2, 345 verses...obviously Jesus felt money was important

This makes my blood boil. How can people be so naive? A person who would actually sit and count all the "money-related" verses in the Bible obviously has some serious spiritual issues. I find it striking that you never, [i]ever[/i] see this stuff addressed in Puritanical writings - that Jesus taught more about money than anything else, and use it to tie in how we can all be materialistically wealthy [i]God's way.[/i]

I hate this stuff. It's just so rotten, so fleshly. Where, O where is true holiness today? Where the Christian delights and finds the greatest satisfaction [i]in giving his extra money away to missions, to the poor, to feed and clothe the naked and hungry?[/i]

I believe that all the wisdom a Christian needs for amassing true earthly wealth and gaining spiritual treasure beyond silver and gold is found in the Book of Proverbs (for free!) - call me old-fashioned!

Brother Paul

R
roadsign

some humble feedback would be greatly appreciated!

I have no clue about this program, but my concern regarding many methods is that they merely offer another chunk out of the “apple” in the Garden. If your “eat” this you can be your own god. You can manage your own life better than you could before, and get along quite well without God.

Diane

C
Compton

I'm with you Paul. Good point about the Puritans.

I would say that different businesses may require us to learn different levels of "technical" competence in banking mechanisms and best accounting practices, but in regards to finding out God's standard for our character and wisdom in business, I agree with your proverbs assesment completely.

Blessings,

MC

P
PaulWest

(Krispy...in case you're just returning to discover what we've done with your thread...well I can't think of a good excuse! You know how we are here!

Hey, knowing Krispy, he's going to have quite alot to say about this too! I sure am looking forward to his thoughts! I think it was Ormly's Hallo-weenie roast post that inspired me.

Brother Paul 8-)

C
Compton

All,

I just appreciated being able to chat in a light-hearted way this evening...Thanks.


Regarding the subject of music I wanted to bring up another unique singer that I came across recently....
[url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000AA3SAE/ref=ed_mus_6x_matis]Matisyahu[/url] is contemporary but not exactly Christian...He's Hasidic Jewish! Normally I wouldn't be that drawn to Hassidic Hip Hop Reggae :-) but I found his Talmudic infused music very endearing.

There is something touching about hearing this guy sing Jerusalem, if I forget about you, let my right hand forget what it's supposed to do.

File under 'culturally interesting."

MC

S
sermonindex


PaulWest wrote:
Hi Diane,

Is it the Jesus- way?

I don't really think it is, and evidently I seem to be in a large [i]minority[/i] with these convictions. I mean, you do an internet search and this guy's teachings on financial wisdom are all the rave. Multitudes of churches are hosting his seminar, and I know a church that has just recently joined the bandwagon (okay, I can't be cryptic any more - it's [i]my[/i] church!) I just can't imagine Spurgeon hosting something like this, or Wesley cracking goofy jokes and teaching people who are disobedient to the Word of God how to amass wealth and live the American dream, debt-free. It's not right, I believe, and is yet another blatant indicator of the sad, sad state of the church today. Ten churches in my little city alone are hosting this how-to-get-out-of-debt-and-be-wealthy stuff; I wonder how many other churches in Dallas, Lubbock, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Santa Fe?

I'm perplexed. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for wisdom and good stewardship over finances, but I just can't put my thumb on why this doesn't sit right. Is anyone familiar with his "Financial Peace University" program?

I also heard (in defense of these types of Christian money-management programs) that Jesus taught more about money than any other topic in the NT - more than prayer, hell, heaven, holiness, etc. Money, and the management thereof. Hosea 4:6 was also used to show that God's children need to acquire "financial" wisdom so as to not be destroyed. I always thought that that verse had to do with knowledge of the law.

I do not want to make a mistake of being overly critical with this. I have already said enough. Some humble feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Brother Paul

You aren't being overly critical, however, what isn't being onserved in this whole thing is why Jesus was mentioning money and the love of it to be a big problem. In one word, Satan. If he can get us to substitude out the love of God for the love of money, he wins; God vs mammon. Satan's tool is obvious, the lust of the eye and "necessities" of life. Debt binds you to him. "Owe no man anything" holds much to be reasoned that we take too lightly especially when we have the means to pay back OVER TIME. Debt obligates but satisfies lust that says, "I must have it now".

What is needed is preaching that speaks against debt for spiritual reasons more than the obvious obligatory death sentence of financial pay back. If it becomes too much to pay back what are our solutions to the problem? Ah, Satan loves what they are.: Bankruptcy, skating, abandonment[s], lying, cheating, the "lootery", more borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, etc, adnausm. All of this designed to rob one of God's intention for us. Of course, the absence of elementary teaching concerning Jesus Christ and the "why" of Him, and the actualized born again life to make this a concern to one's heart, is also absent from the the preaching. "Choose you this day" should be explained more fully as to the consequences of wrongly choosing with the attitude of presumption.

Reasoning, a Tale of it’s Progress in Five Chapters ---- for the lustful who hopefully become un-lustful.


Chapter 1

I walk down the street ---- there’s a deep hole in the sidewalk ---- I fall in!-- I’m lost! I’m helpless! ---- It isn’t my fault! ---- It takes forever to find my way out.

Chapter 2

I walk down the same street ---- there’s a DEEP HOLE in the sidewalk -
-- I pretend I don’t see it --- I FALL IN AGAIN -- I CAN’T BELIEVE I’m in the SAME place! --- but it’s not MY fault!--- it still takes a LONG time to get out.

Chapter 3

I walk down the SAME street --- there’s deep hole in the sidewalk --- I SEE that it is there --- I still fall in --- it’s become a habit --- my eyes are open ——— I know where I am ——— it’s my fault ——— I get out immediately!

Chapter 4

I walk down the same street --- there’s a deep hole the sidewalk --- I walk around it.

Chapter 5

I walk down another street.

THE END

Now if Satan can disguise the hole in the ground, hmmm, I wonder, the music?

Hebrews 5:14 (KJV)
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


2 Tim. 2:26 (KJV)
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


S
sermonindex

Hey, knowing Krispy, he's going to have quite alot to say about this too! I sure am looking forward to his thoughts! I think it was Ormly's Hallo-weenie roast post that inspired me.

Yea... this thread has been successfully hi-jacked! Chase that rabbit, boys!! :-o

Krispy

R
roadsign

Ormly, the five Chapters aught to supplement the four spiritual laws! It sure gets one thinking. Does this come in pamphlet form?

but it’s not MY fault!” …. [to]……… “it’s my fault

In other words, repentance begins when the victim assumes responsibility.

Now if Satan can disguise the hole in the ground, hmmm, I wonder, the music?
I might add that any kind of music can become a tool of Satan – a temptation that keeps life in the hole more bearable. That could include (yes) even our beloved hymns, or whatever we cherish so dearly. The love of music can subtly replace the love of God.

Thankfully, God implements ways of testing our loves, and ingeniously exposes our rival loves – be it money or music. (Guess how I know?)

It's not our job as music providers in church to use music simply to enhance the hole-life; and yet we can't stop it from happening.

Diane

S
sermonindex


KrispyKrittr wrote:
Hey, knowing Krispy, he's going to have quite alot to say about this too! I sure am looking forward to his thoughts! I think it was Ormly's Hallo-weenie roast post that inspired me.

Yea... this thread has been successfully hi-jacked! Chase that rabbit, boys!! :-o

Krispy

Hijacked? I wondered about that when I posted.

Think for a moment though how much overlaps to include other areas perhaps now recognisable at first, that is until things start to happen we begin to sense as a hijacking of our allegiance. Very subtle, this person Satan who uses our friendship[s] with the world to undermine our striving in the perfect way.

:-(

S
sermonindex


roadsign wrote:
Ormly, the five Chapters aught to supplement the four spiritual laws! It sure gets one thinking. Does this come in pamphlet form?

I heard that read aloud by David Jeremiah years ago and copied it down. I have no idea where it originated.

but it’s not MY fault!” …. [to]……… “it’s my fault

In other words, repentance begins when the victim assumes responsibility.

Can it be otherwise if it is to be a beginning of true repentence?

Now if Satan can disguise the hole in the ground, hmmm, I wonder, the music?
I might add that any kind of music can become a tool of Satan – a temptation that keeps life in the hole more bearable. That could include (yes) even our beloved hymns, or whatever we cherish so dearly. The love of music can subtly replace the love of God.

I believe it is called "sentementalism". Some hymns need to be shelved for sure. However, some need to sung at every church gathering. I believe we know which they are if we are worshippers.

Thankfully, God implements ways of testing our loves, and ingeniously exposes our rival loves – be it money or music. Guess how I know?

It's not our job as music providers in church to use music simply to enhance the hole-life.

Diane

I believe it was David who sent out the praisers and singers before his army. I feel quite sure his music was conducive to supplication and thus, victory.

Indeed. As one who grew up singing
"specials" on Sunday nights, I became increasingly disenchanted even with myself with "specials" as an influence. I am not moved at all by "specials". Specials are entertainment.

The congregation should be the choir. In our church, it was because, for one reason, we never had a platform big enough to stand one. #2. We didn't need one. Our congregation was always ready. On a hot summer night with the windows open, the whole neighborhood knew we were worshippers.... and it went on for hours. Many people came to the knowledge of Christ.

:-D

L
Logic


KrispyKrittr wrote:
"Art" no longer requires transcendent and inspired human skills to produce.....

I heard that a janitor actually threw away a peace of "art" thinking that it was garbage, for there was no difference between the "art and what his job was to clean up.

Music on the other hand, I can not tell the difference between one song and the next played on the radio. Musicians are a dime a dozen these days. Especialy on an album, where does one song end and another begin? I find there is no diversity.

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Music on the other hand, I can not tell the difference between one song and the next played on the radio. Musicians are a dime a dozen these days. Especialy on an album, where does one song end and another begin? I find there is no diversity.

Ahhh!! Someone finally brought the thread around full circle! THIS is what the topic was [i]supposed[/i] to be...

Krispy

C
Compton

For the record, I did try to share some modern music I thought was worth listening to...but I didn't get any takers...


That's cool... I guess. >sniff<

MC

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MC... I must've missed that. Share with me, my friend!

Krispy

P
PTywama3

I must just buy good albums, I really don't have that problem.

Maybe I'm just a radical thinker, but people have been saying this for generations, and they're ultimately correct. The style of a time is fairly consistent with itself more often than not. There will be a few standouts, but generally speaking the thing we find ourselves attracted to is the artist (be it Louie Armstrong, the London Symphony Orchestra, or Toby Keith). The level of musicianship as a whole might have dropped, but there are solid players and singers out there right now.

Really the argument is we're bored, or its we miss the old styles being prominent. Oddly enough, I can pick up jazz, classical, country, pop, rock, alternative, gospel & religious, and mixtures just by pressing the over button on my radio.

I can distinguish between orchestras playing the same piece the way I can distinguish between jazz or big bands playing the same piece. I can distinguish between pieces because I actively listen to music. The same holds true for this "cookie cutter" music of today... in all reality it is just as often personal taste and the decline of music happened back when the radio was still more popular than TV as personal entertainment. The British Invasion should show us that.

Every once in a while, there do pop up some truly original bands that bend their genre and totally change the way we expect music to be... But the funny thing is that excellence breeds excellence only for so long, and we cannot expect such groundbreaking things to happen every decade. America has helped change it from hoping to occur once over several generations to possibly once or twice a lifetime.

Now a lot of that originality a lot of us reminisce over is gone. Things feel stale, and we don't like it. But that's the way history goes, and there's no way around it. It doesn't mean its all bad music. I think it means a lot of us have become discriminative against music rather than of it. And that may not be fair.

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Along those lines... consider this... and I'm going to use secular musicians for my example because most will know who I am talking about...

Banarama... remember them? What did they have? One hit in the mid-80's... Never to be heard from again.

Eric Clapton... been around for 4 decades.

Need I say more?

Krispy

C
Compton

Okay! :-D

Here is a replay of the links of music that I thought could be considered an exception to the rule. Like I mentioned earlier , that although these are "sacred" composers, they aren't "evangelical" at all. I included them on their artistic merits rather then their theology. Most of them use scripture as text anyways...maybe evangelicals should do that more too.


The British composer and choral conductor [url=http://www.amazon.com/Rutter-Requiem-Susan-Dorey/dp/B00008OP1S/sr=1-5/qid=1162453899/ref=sr_1_5/102-1179971-3725766?ie=UTF8&s=music]John Rutter[/url] is being heard more and more these days. His Requiem is my favorite...one listen to Pie Jesus on this inexpensive CD and you'll believe that deeply moving and beautiful worship music isn't a thing of the past afterall.

The American composer [url=http://www.amazon.com/Lauridsen-Northwest-Journey-Morten/dp/B00004YNF7/sr=1-7/qid=1162454158/ref=sr_1_7/102-1179971-3725766?ie=UTF8&s=music]Morten Lauridsen[/url] writes both sacred and secular choral music. If you want to hear one of the most heart stirring flowing melodies that could ever fall on your ears, listen to 'O Magnum Mysterium" on the CD I bookmarked. Ears are wonderful gifts from God!

Henryk Gorecki is a Polish composer who has found some measure of popular acceptance even though his music is known as an expression of his country's misery in the 20th century. The first movement from [url=http://www.amazon.com/Henryk-Gorecki-Symphony-Sorrowful-Songs/dp/B000005J1C/ref=cm_sylt_fullview_prod_37/103-6582526-8001432/103-6582526-8001432]Symphony 3 "Sorrowful Songs"[/url] has no words, but is one of the most prayer-like intonation of sadness and hope I have ever heard. Great soundtrack for reading the Psalms or Lamentations...

Perhaps the most different composer in my line-up is Estonian orthodox composer [url=http://www.amazon.com/Best-Arvo-Part/dp/B0001ZMBU6/sr=8-3/qid=1162453585/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-1179971-3725766?ie=UTF8&s=music]Arvo Part[/url]. He is an internationally recognized chuch music composer who has become known for meditative minimalism. It's worth noting that he suffered severe censorship from the Soviet Union a few decades ago when he made his Christian faith public.

And I also mentioned this guy, not so much for his art but for his uniqueness...

[url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000AA3SAE/ref=ed_mus_6x_matis]Matisyahu[/url] is contemporary but not exactly Christian...He's Hasidic Jewish! Normally I wouldn't be that drawn to Hassidic Hip Hop Reggae :-) but I found his Talmudic infused music very endearing.

There is something touching about hearing this guy sing Jerusalem, if I forget about you, let my right hand forget what it's supposed to do.

File under 'culturally interesting."

MC

PS... also gave Michael card an honorable mention....


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The level of musicianship as a whole might have dropped, but there are solid players and singers out there right now.

Rule of thumb: Lousy music played by solid players is still lousy music. Can I be wrong about that?

:-?

P
PaulWest

Rule of thumb: Lousy music played by solid players is still lousy music. Can I be wrong about that?

Well, have you ever heard John Williams (the guitarist) play Ferdinand Carulli? It may change your perspective. On the other hand, solid music played by [i]lousy[/i] performers (i.e. Gesualdo sung by a high-school choir) may render the impression of horrid music to untrained ears. Do you realize what J.S. Bach's [i]Saint Matthew's Passion[/i] (In my opinion, the grandest, noblest, most profound and epic musical masterpiece in all of Western history) would sound like if performed by a substandard double-choir and double-orchestra? Worse than anything you could imagine. But I've heard some musically-inferior Telemann motets (not at all the calibre of Bach) sung by great choirs that make the music sound first-rate, exhillarating!

I think the key is in the interpretational skill and virtuosity of the musicians, and in the concept of the conductor. Usually, the more great and profound the music is, the more great and profound a performer is needed to keep the music from falling flat and betraying its quality.

Of course, the conductor plays the most important part. The glue, the pulse, the life. So many technically-polished Christian musicians getting up and performing [i]great[/i] music, though without inspired interpretation and minus the conductor. So what do we get? Bach played by Lucy the gorilla.

Or the stuff that passes for worship nowadays on the radio. Just my opinion.

R
roadsign

From Kerry Livgren’s article:

The whole genre seems to be designed to draw attention to the player rather than the music.

I think people are much more visual these days, and are accustomed to being entertained. The actual music is secondary.

Livgren seems to focus more on music in the media and commercial market; but there is a lot of great music happening that never hits either. Good musicians don’t bother themselves with being popular or making a big buck.(though it happens to a few) Their priority is making good music. So that’s maybe why many may think that only mediocre stuff exists these days.

Compton said:

there is a small but steady growth in the interest of Choral music these days.

Choirs seem to be popping up all over the place. People still want to sing! I believe that community choirs are growing in popularity because they are either disappearing from the churches, or churches can’t maintain a good calibre. So sacred choral music is moving from the church to the community.

Choirs have a distinct advantage because practically anyone who likes to sing in a group can join one suitable to their level. You don’t have to be solo material. Probably the biggest hurdle to overcome is not so much in finding enough willing singers, but finding skilled directors - who will invest in the enormous task.

I’ve included a few selections of choral recordings – (just to add to Compton’s list of fine works).

Sacred choral music:
[url=http://mennolink.org/books/search.cgi?bk.stj.02.txt&track=2]Sing the Journey [/url]The director is Kenneth Nafziger of Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisburg, VA. Enjoy the samples.

Here two well-known Canadian ensembles combine to perform a collection of choral/brass hymn arrangements: [url=http://www.amazon.com/People-Canadian-Elmer-Iseler-Singers/dp/B000ETRIXO/sr=11-1/qid=1162860223/ref=sr_11_1/103-8979199-7587809 ]Canadian Brass with Elmer Iseler Singers[/url] Unforuntately no samples are provided.

I have a personal affection for this work because I have accompanied it for a children’s choir.[url=http://www.amazon.com/Britten-Choral-Works-II-Ceremony/dp/B000B86582/sr=1-8/qid=1162864409/ref=sr_1_8/103-8979199-7587809?ie=UTF8&s=music#moreAboutThisProduct]Benjamin Britten - Ceremony of Carols[/url] Enjoy the samples. Lovers of olde English should enjoy the lyrics. (found elsewhere on the web, no doubt)

And there's so much more...

Why not join a choir in your area? Be part of music -making, not just disguntled spectators of a our declining arts.


Diane

S
sermonindex


PaulWest wrote:
Rule of thumb: Lousy music played by solid players is still lousy music. Can I be wrong about that?

Well, have you ever heard John Williams (the guitarist) play Ferdinand Carulli? It may change your perspective. On the other hand, solid music played by [i]lousy[/i] performers (i.e. Gesualdo sung by a high-school choir) may render the impression of horrid music to untrained ears. Do you realize what J.S. Bach's [i]Saint Matthew's Passion[/i] (In my opinion, the grandest, noblest, most profound and epic musical masterpiece in all of Western history) would sound like if performed by a substandard double-choir and double-orchestra? Worse than anything you could imagine. But I've heard some musically-inferior Telemann motets (not at all the calibre of Bach) sung by great choirs that make the music sound first-rate, exhillarating!

I think the key is in the interpretational skill and virtuosity of the musicians, and in the concept of the conductor. Usually, the more great and profound the music is, the more great and profound a performer is needed to keep the music from falling flat and betraying its quality.

Of course, the conductor plays the most important part. The glue, the pulse, the life. So many technically-polished Christian musicians getting up and performing [i]great[/i] music, though without inspired interpretation and minus the conductor. So what do we get? Bach played by Lucy the gorilla.

Or the stuff that passes for worship nowadays on the radio. Just my opinion.

You make a good point.

Ever hear the Doxology played by a rock band --- for worship service? ---- I left


:-x

F
freedbyjc

Krispy... you have the patience of a saint! Awesome post and great presence...

So ORM, old buddy...

Ever hear the Doxology played by a rock band --- for worship service? ---- I left
what was the contention that drove you away?

The ROCK band's version...or The Doxology?
The rock BAND's version...or The Doxology?
The rock band's VERSION...or The Doxology?
The rock band's version...or The DOXOLOGY?

We all receive music with our ears and must examine all music with our heart and soul. If the vessel is tainted then so will the final product be... no matter how pure the source.

All music has its place, its message and its audience ... we do not know the heart of the musician nor the worshipper unless we are they.

To [once more]quote Pogo...AGAIN... [i]We have met the enemy and it is us! [/i]

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sermonindex

Krispy... you have the patience of a saint! Awesome post and great presence...

Could you tell my wife that please? She needs to be convinced! LOL

Doxology... Ya know, Petra ended their 1983 album Not Of This World with a very nice version of the Doxology done with synthesizers. While the Doxology is a great song of the faith, it is not the Word of God, not Holy Spirit inspired (at least not in the same way as God's Word is), and should not be treated as such. It is a wonderful song, but if someone has a vision for doing a different arraingement of it... so what? Let 'em. If someone doesnt like it, no one is forcing them to listen to it.

Krispy

F
freedbyjc

Me too, Bro'!

An old sweet soul once told us that "Our walk walks and our talk talks, but our walk talks a whole lot louder than our talk talks."

AMEN ... The Doxology ...

I'll always remember the beautiful teaching that took place one day in our Fellowship Hall when our [then] Minister of Music, just coming off of a European concert series [Florida Baptist Singing men], said that in every country they travelled to, before they ate any meal, the whole choir [40+] joined hands and sang the Doxology as a blessing l... Peter said that [b]every[/b] time the rest of the resturant or cafe would stop and join in...he said it was an awesome experience. We then joined hands and did the same thing and it WAS awesome!

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sermonindex

And it [i]can[/i] be a blessing! Absolutely. We're involved in a house church network, but every now and then my wife and I visit a traditional type church... mainly to meet other believers... and we love to visit smaller country churches that have some incredible congregational singing. I'm talking about folks that sing at the top of their lungs... with just a piano and maybe an acoustical guitar for accompanment. It's incredible. Here in the mountains of North Carolina there are a lot of great churches like that... you just have to find them (which can be tricky! ...lot's of back roads!) I like praise bands too... but there is nothing like a room full of country folks belting out some old hymns.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:

Doxology... Ya know, Petra ended their 1983 album Not Of This World with a very nice version of the Doxology done with synthesizers. While the Doxology is a great song of the faith, it is not the Word of God, not Holy Spirit inspired (at least not in the same way as God's Word is), and should not be treated as such. It is a wonderful song, but if someone has a vision for doing a different arraingement of it... so what? Let 'em. If someone doesnt like it, no one is forcing them to listen to it.

Krispy

Ok, I'll bring my juice harp to your church or maybe my musical saw. Would you let me play the Doxology on either of them? How about every week I do that?

Naah, you wouldn't put up with that -- but ask yourself the question[S] why? Now answer all of them, honestly.

Don't disappoint me, Bro. The Dox is the word of God. Certainly you don't need scripture to support that.

I'm now assuming you to be "seeker sensitive" so I posit dollars to doughnuts you wouldn't let me play the traditional version of the Doxology on a grand organ for fear it would alienate the "pop/rock" section of your congregation. You'd probably tell me, "That's not where we want to go" not thinking how rock/pop inhibits worship.

Am I right or wrong?

:-o

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Ah... good morning Ormly! How are you today? Did you vote this morning? How's the weather down on your end of the state? Kinda rainy here. Didnt get too wet waiting to vote tho... Fortunately I got there early so I was in and out quickly.

Krispy

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sermonindex


KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ah... good morning Ormly! How are you today? Did you vote this morning? How's the weather down on your end of the state? Kinda rainy here. Didnt get too wet waiting to vote tho... Fortunately I got there early so I was in and out quickly.

Krispy

Good morning my Brother,

Its wet over here...and coool.

I voted three days ago.

Its going to be real interesting, in light of end times thinking, to see how this election all pans out.

:-o ;-)

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That's great, brother. I'm responding a day later, and it's all said and done now. Now we can hopefully dispense of the poilitical ads!!

Hope you're having a wonderful day today.

Krispy

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Question for everyone: If the OT Tabernacle was still in vogue albeit, a Christian one where we we were instructed to worship, do you think our comptemporary music and dress code would be acceptable?

8-)

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Question for everyone: If the OT Tabernacle was still in vogue albeit, a Christian one where we we were instructed to worship, do you think our comptemporary music and dress code would be acceptable?

Ormly... are ya havin' a nice day? Have anything good for lunch? I had a nice ham & cheese sub with everything on it from a local greek resteraunt. Mmmm... mmm... mmmmm...

Krispy

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Come to think of it, thats what I had --- on French bread. :-P

Now answer the question ya hill billy. :-D

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sermonindex

Listen here, flat lander... hush yer mouth!

I dont think the question is relevent to the topic of this thread. Thats my answer.

Personally, I think the way people dress today is inappropriate in many different arenas. I always wear a suit and tie to our end of season Football awards ceremony... and pretty much everyone comes looking like bums.

But I also believe that clothes dont make the man. When I teach in our house church gatherings I usually have on jeans and a (Carolina Panthers) football jersey. It's not being flippant... it's being real with God. It's about not trying to impress everyone with my newest silk tie.

It's NOT about being seeker sensitive. I'm about as seeker sensitive as I am politically correct.

As for music. I already answered that question. In a worship service some forms of music are inappropriate. It doesnt make them wrong... as Solomon said... for everything there is a season.

Krispy

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sermonindex

I have a reply but first this question: How do you dress when you go to church?

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:

In a worship service some forms of music are inappropriate. It doesnt make them wrong... as Solomon said... for everything there is a season.

Krispy

I agree with you on this Krispy...to a point. Let's remember what the Psalmist said in Psalms 150:
Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

"Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness." - You know what I identify with when I read this portion of the Scripture? I see myself shouting and hooping and hollering as if I were at a football game. I don't see myself just kind of standing there during worship and having it be mellow. His acts of power are magnificant; His greatness so incredibly amazing. I'm going to shout, I'm gonna be jazzed. I'm gonna be praising Him with all the gusto I can muster up.

PLUS check out all the instruments.... There loud, some obnoxious. I'll bet you anything that, if electric guitars, drums, bass, and turn tables were invented back then, they would be on the list, too.

There are times when we should be mellow, but man, I wanna give glory to a GOD that has made my life incredibly worth living, and because of that, I'm gonna get creative (since He made me creative and wants me to express my creativity) and sing and praise with every creative ounce within me.

I can't believe that God wants us to practically be zombies as we worship Him. I mean, if all the angels are having a "party" for every person that commits his life to Christ, then how can I not be just as joyous, or more joyous in how I express my lifelong devotion to Him through praise and worship (no matter the instrument)?

I took your quote Krispy, but this wasn't just directed at you, this was a general, for anyone to respond to, post!

;-) :-P

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:

rock/pop inhibits worship.

Instruments and voice inhibit worship? WHAT? Isn't that what you're saying? Just because we have created new ways of singing and also new instruments doesn't mean that it inhibits worship! When Adam and Eve were created were there harps, lyre's and clanging cymbols? Nope. So, why aren't we worshiping like Adam and Eve with our hands and feet and hitting sticks on rocks (or whatever they did to express their worship to God)? You can't tell me that David was WRONG and ungodly because he didn't follow the form of worship that Adam and Eve started, or that anyone else was wrong or ungodly for not worshiping like they did.

Why must we get soo legalistic about how we worship our CREATOR who made us individuals with creativity????????

Here's another question to top that all off... Why don't the pastor's dress like the priests did back then... with gold and jewels and staffs? Why are we cutting our sideburns and beards? Why aren't we wearing sandals and robes? Why must we be stuck with living out our lives of a 2000 + year old JEWISH culture? (I say this with the knowledge, that some of our current cultural stuff, is obnoxious and lustful, but I'm talking about sticking strickly with the ideas of Scripture - we can dress like our culture, without creating a lustful, and degrading to God, environment)

It is perfectly ok and by no means a sin to be creative (especially when it comes to worship).


;-)

P.S. How about that ram's horn we all use every Sunday in church....!?

S
sermonindex

Why must we get soo legalistic about how we worship our CREATOR who made us individuals with creativity????????

Legalistic? Where/when does holiness come into your asking about "soo legalistic", or does it?? Is it even considered in your "creativity"?

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:
Why must we get soo legalistic about how we worship our CREATOR who made us individuals with creativity????????

Legalistic? Where/when does holiness come into your asking about "soo legalistic", or does it?? Is it even considered in your "creativity"?

You can be holy and be creative in worship and adoration to God. Why must there be walls when one comes into the holy presence of God? As I said, I know there are times when there need to be quiet or mellow moments as we enter into the Holy presence of the Lord, but must it be mellow 90%, 95%, or 98% of the time? Again, let me reitirate the several Psalms that say to shout to the Lord, dance, clang cymbols, and so on. Why must we limit our worship to our Creator when He, Himself, gave us the freedom to come into his presence, not only in reverence, but also in thanksgiving, praise, dancing, shouting, and loud instruments?

Are you limiting the ways in which God can consider things holy?

If you can, can you show me Scripture that is anti-dancing, anti-cymbols, anti-stringed instruments, and anti-singing in the presence of the Lord in worship and praise to Him?

S
sermonindex


BenBrockway wrote:

Ormly wrote:
Why must we get soo legalistic about how we worship our CREATOR who made us individuals with creativity????????

Legalistic? Where/when does holiness come into your asking about "soo legalistic", or does it?? Is it even considered in your "creativity"?

You can be holy and be creative in worship and adoration to God. Why must there be walls when one comes into the holy presence of God?

Why?? Ask Him and when the answer doesn't come in a way not quite clear enough for the careless, DON"T PRESUME that what you do is ok. Err on the side of desiring to please and honor the Father, not with the attitude, "He sees my heart" and "man has no right to judge me". Never forget that you have influence, whether you like it or not. Don't be shabby.

As I said, I know there are times when there need to be quiet or mellow moments as we enter into the Holy presence of the Lord, but must it be mellow 90%, 95%, or 98% of the time?

That's the business of the Holy Spirit. Are you sufficiently sensitive to His presence? If not, again, DON"T PRESUME. Be like Esther.

Again, let me reitirate the several Psalms that say to shout to the Lord, dance, clang cymbols, and so on. Why must we limit our worship to our Creator when He, Himself, gave us the freedom to come into his presence, not only in reverence, but also in thanksgiving, praise, dancing, shouting, and loud instruments?

First, you have to be in His presence. Dare I say the prescribed way is absent? Where are your psalm singers as in the days genuine worship directed to Him, that He could bless? There is an order to this that is blessable. Step out of the order and you step out of His blessing. Carelessness, sloppiness of dress, presumption, and downright disrespect for His sanctuary and what we presume to be ok, has left Him out entirely.

Are you limiting the ways in which God can consider things holy?

No. He has done that. First you must be a worshipper. If you aren't, stay home. Find out why.

If you can, can you show me Scripture that is anti-dancing, anti-cymbols, anti-stringed instruments, and anti-singing in the presence of the Lord in worship and praise to Him?

No. Can you show by scripture where playing sounds indistinguishable from the "whoring" ways of the world is acceptable in His sanctuary; the clashing of cymbals, the incessant beating of the string instruments to tunes with no beauty to them, where the shout of joy, if there is any, is replaced with superficial screaming to an emotional high? Show me with scripture where a set of stage drums are used drowning out/ inhibiting one's attempt at worship, should he/she even desire to. In fact, show me drums, period. Where is the anointed order of praise that leads people into blessable worship? Where did musicians ever use a microphone to make themselves stand out above the other praisers in scripture? Where did praisers ever stand out from other praisers? Show me using scriptures where feedback monitors were ever needed in leading the congregation that sought to praise God. If you can't find these things in scripture its quite evident they weren't needed. So why do we use them today except as a badge to bring attention to a stage full of performers who seek the attention; who need the self-gratification for being able, in their estimation, of igniting praise in others by the "soul-ish stirring sounds" they play. I dare not call it music unto the Lord. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? ---- He isn't. However, society, our desensitised culture, can no longer make that distinction, thanks to the little foxes.


:-(

S
sermonindex

How do you dress when you go to church?

If you knew anything about me... you would know that I dont "go to church". Most of the time church comes to me.

I left the traditional church a long time ago. We have small churches that meet in homes (remember? like in Acts?). They are kept small on purpose... if one gets too large to meet into a home, it morphs into two groups.

Krispy

N
NLONG

Krispy,

Great to hear there are other's here who fellowship in the homes as the church!

S
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There are more of us than people think! There is freedom!

Krispy

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:


No. Can you show by scripture where playing sounds indistinguishable from the "whoring" ways of the world is acceptable in His sanctuary; the clashing of cymbals, the incessant beating of the string instruments to tunes with no beauty to them, where the shout of joy, if there is any, is replaced with superficial screaming to an emotional high? Show me with scripture where a set of stage drums are used drowning out/ inhibiting one's attempt at worship, should he/she even desire to. In fact, show me drums, period. Where is the anointed order of praise that leads people into blessable worship? Where did musicians ever use a microphone to make themselves stand out above the other praisers in scripture? Where did praisers ever stand out from other praisers? Show me using scriptures where feedback monitors were ever needed in leading the congregation that sought to praise God. If you can't find these things in scripture its quite evident they weren't needed. So why do we use them today except as a badge to bring attention to a stage full of performers who seek the attention; who need the self-gratification for being able, in their estimation, of igniting praise in others by the "soul-ish stirring sounds" they play. I dare not call it music unto the Lord. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? ---- He isn't. However, society, our desensitised culture, can no longer make that distinction, thanks to the little foxes.

Wow. Then I am presuming that God's gift of intelligence in creating new and wonderful things is an abomination? Quite contradictory, don't you think? It's is interesting that this silly argument has been waring amongst believers since nearly the beginning of time! Remember Micah's disgust over David, and yet:
2 Samuel 6
The Ark Brought to Jerusalem
Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.
David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"
21 David said to Michal, ***"It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD.**** ****22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. " ****

Now, is there a time for this?: Hebrews 12

28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."


You betcha. There is a time for both. I love this next Scripture:

Psalm 68
For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. A song.
1 May God arise, may his enemies be scattered;
may his foes flee before him.
3. But may the righteous be glad
and rejoice before God;
may they be happy and joyful.
4 Sing to God, sing praise to his name,
extol him who rides on the clouds [a]—
his name is the LORD—
and rejoice before him.
19 Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior,
who daily bears our burdens.
Selah
20 Our God is a God who saves;
from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.
24 Your procession has come into view, O God, the procession of my God and King into the sanctuary.
***25 In front are the singers, after them the musicians; with them are the maidens playing tambourines. ***
***26 Praise God in the great congregation; praise the LORD in the assembly of Israel.***
28 Summon your power, O God; show us your strength, O God, as you have done before.
32 Sing to God, O kingdoms of the earth, sing praise to the Lord,
Selah
33 to him who rides the ancient skies above, who thunders with mighty voice.
34 Proclaim the power of God, whose majesty is over Israel, whose power is in the skies.
35 You are awesome, O God, in your sanctuary;
the God of Israel gives power and strength to his people.
Praise be to God!


So, no worshippers in front? What does verse 25 and 26 say? Singers and musicians in front of a congregation in the assembly. Hmmmm!?

We can go on and on in our arguments, but you know what? It isn't worth it. How we worship, when our hearts are pure, is not for one another to judge. If we do, then we are putting conditions before God and we are telling God how He can and cannot be worshipped.

Can I ask if you know your way of worship is an ABSOLUTE? Or might it be your own interpretation of Scripture? Are you the sayer of all that is good, pure and holy before God, or is it God who has the beginning and last word?

Remember this: God created all things good. He created man with individual talents to Worship Him with those talents. Music is not satanic. God created ways for Himself to be worshipped. Remember that if we do not worship, the rocks will cry out. Does it say that the rocks will whisper? No it says that the rocks will CRY OUT. Now if a rock is a non-breathing thing, and it will CRY OUT, then why must we, his most beloved of creation, stay mellow when it comes to giving God the glory He deserves with all our might?

The funny thing is, is your children's children will argue some of these same arguments, but they are worthless things to argue, as it is not a Salvation issue. Do our hearts have to be right and pure in how we worship? Sure! Are there some whose hearts are not? Sure. However, must you include all forms of undignified (as David was) forms of worship as unholy?

I mean, check this out. David was undignified before the people, he sinned and tried covering up his sin with another sin, and yet, in the end, he was still considered a man after God's own heart!! Hmmm... An undignified worshipping sinner after God's own heart...

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:


Show me with scripture where a set of stage drums are used drowning out/ inhibiting one's attempt at worship, should he/she even desire to. In fact, show me drums, period. Where is the anointed order of praise that leads people into blessable worship? Where did musicians ever use a microphone to make themselves stand out above the other praisers in scripture? Where did praisers ever stand out from other praisers? Show me using scriptures where feedback monitors were ever needed in leading the congregation that sought to praise God. If you can't find these things in scripture its quite evident they weren't needed. So why do we use them today except as a badge to bring attention to a stage full of performers who seek the attention; who need the self-gratification for being able, in their estimation, of igniting praise in others by the "soul-ish stirring sounds" they play. I dare not call it music unto the Lord. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? ---- He isn't. However, society, our desensitised culture, can no longer make that distinction, thanks to the little foxes.

:-(


Show me in the beginning of Genesis where Adam and Eve worship with a Lyre or other stringed instruments other then the harp because it says here: Genesis 4
19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 ***His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute.*** 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron.
At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.

Since time moved forward, an not backwards and cultures shifted and changed and new ideas came into place out of creativity, I guess you are calling David and his worshippers, "INHIBITORS?"

I wonder how David feels about that? Or even God for that matter, since David was a man after God's own heart!!!!!!

S
sermonindex

I'm glad we dont have to live by the OT. I dont think I could keep up with everything.

Ormly, you claim you're not a legalist, but your words on this thread betray you. You seem to be fashioning your New Covenant life after the Old Covenant way.

Feel free to do that, if you wish. I would prefer to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We have freedom. Not freedom to sin, or live in a way that is not holy... but freedom from the yoke of the Law.

You want to sandwich people into a little space and say "this is the only way to worship". But you seem to forget that your way of worship wont work for those in China who meet in caves. It wont work for that tribe in Africa. It works great in your westernized format... but God isnt an American.

God is a creative God. Get up some morning and watch the sun come up. Sometimes I drive up on the Blue Ridge Parkway near my house and watch the sun come up over Cold Mountain. Oh man... how spectacular. So many colors. So many sounds.

Then I come back down from the mountain and someone wants to tell me that God doesnt want us to worship Him creatively? No, that doesnt make sense to me. All things done in order, of course. But rigidly and with no thought or creativity? No... that goes against God's very personality.

I know you'll rip my words apart and make them mean things that they dont, and put words in my mouth... you're very good at it. But I think most folks reading this (who have actually taken the time to get to know me and understand me) will get it.

Krispy

B
BenBrockway

Ultimately, what is at hand here is that your INTERPRETATION of Scripture differs from my interpretation of Scripture, so is it right for you or I to judge another’s heart in their form of worship? Or is that up to God, the receiver of this worship?

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:

I would prefer to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We have freedom. Not freedom to sin, or live in a way that is not holy... but freedom from the yoke of the Law.

You want to sandwich people into a little space and say "this is the only way to worship". But you seem to forget that your way of worship wont work for those in China who meet in caves. It wont work for that tribe in Africa. It works great in your westernized format... but God isnt an American.

God is a creative God. Get up some morning and watch the sun come up. Sometimes I drive up on the Blue Ridge Parkway near my house and watch the sun come up over Cold Mountain. Oh man... how spectacular. So many colors. So many sounds.

Then I come back down from the mountain and someone wants to tell me that God doesnt want us to worship Him creatively? No, that doesnt make sense to me. All things done in order, of course. But rigidly and with no thought or creativity? No... that goes against God's very personality.

Krispy

Hallelujiah!!!!! This is exactly the point!
Thank you Krispy!

N
NLONG

Krispy,

WONDERFUL FREEDOM! Praise the Living God!

S
sermonindex


KrispyKrittr wrote:
How do you dress when you go to church?

If you knew anything about me... you would know that I dont "go to church". Most of the time church comes to me.

I left the traditional church a long time ago. We have small churches that meet in homes (remember? like in Acts?). They are kept small on purpose... if one gets too large to meet into a home, it morphs into two groups.

Krispy

Same here. However, as yet I do not have a small group or belong to one. But things are happening and God is faithful to bring one into my life. :-D

S
sermonindex

BenbBrockway wrote:

Remember when the Ark was Brought to Jerusalem
Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.


Sure I remember. Do you remember what happened when Uzzah reached out and presumptously touched the Glory?

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:
BenbBrockway wrote:
Remember when the Ark was Brought to Jerusalem
Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.


Sure I remember. Do you remember what happened when Uzzah reached out and presumptously touched the Glory?


lol.... you certianly like to argue with things that are off the subject! Must you be so argumentative? Of course I remember, but that doesn't have to do with how we worship. He broke a covenant that was made between God and man. They weren't suppose to touch the ark no matter what... so what does that have to do with worship by singing and instruments!?

Stay on the subject Ormly! :-(

P
PreachParsly

Would I be too bold if I said that most of your worship is probably done with no music at all?

Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

I'm not sure worship is "raising your hands and shouting." Maybe that is praise. Is there a difference? I guess I see worship more as obedience and love..

Could it be true that worship encompasses praise, yet they are not one and the same?

Am I way off?

S
sermonindex


KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'm glad we dont have to live by the OT. I dont think I could keep up with everything.;/quote]

Ormly, you claim you're not a legalist, but your words on this thread betray you.

Not hardly. I believe God is Holy and His Holiness is something to be revered and approached with fear and trembling, held in awe and to be given our best. Even the some sloppy contempary music speaks of His "awesomeness" yet violate it in His presence.

You seem to be fashioning your New Covenant life after the Old Covenant way.

Why --because I give you an example from it? God's ways and means and Holiness, haven't changed.

Feel free to do that, if you wish. I would prefer to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We have freedom. Not freedom to sin, or live in a way that is not holy... but freedom from the yoke of the Law.

And held to a greater accountability in handling His Glory, if I may say so. The priviledge of having Deep calling to Deep and we treat it like a day at the beach.

You want to sandwich people into a little space and say "this is the only way to worship". But you seem to forget that your way of worship wont work for those in China who meet in caves. It wont work for that tribe in Africa. It works great in your westernized format... but God isnt an American.

They give their best to Him. That's what The Lord expects from us. They realize what is at stake which is far more than I see in the contemporary way here in our post modern, purpose driven, church. Can it be said that is being done by imitating the Rolling Stones or any other group?

God is a creative God. Get up some morning and watch the sun come up. Sometimes I drive up on the Blue Ridge Parkway near my house and watch the sun come up over Cold Mountain. Oh man... how spectacular. So many colors. So many sounds.

Worship of God isn't a time to be creative.

Then I come back down from the mountain and someone wants to tell me that God doesnt want us to worship Him creatively? No, that doesnt make sense to me. All things done in order, of course. But rigidly and with no thought or creativity? No... that goes against God's very personality.

No, that only reveals your determination to protect the thinking of this worlds reasoning.

I know you'll rip my words apart and make them mean things that they dont, and put words in my mouth... you're very good at it. But I think most folks reading this (who have actually taken the time to get to know me and understand me) will get it.

Krispy

I get it and I don't agree with you. I've been there -- got all the coffee mugs and tee shirts.


:-orm

S
sermonindex

lol.... you certianly like to argue with things that are off the subject! Must you be so argumentative? Of course I remember, but that doesn't have to do with how we worship. He broke a covenant that was made between God and man. They weren't suppose to touch the ark no matter what... so what does that have to do with worship by singing and instruments!?

And what do you think you do when you worship if not to touch the Glory ---- hmmm?

Seems you should really thank God for His Grace in the matter if you are otherwise minded..

S
sermonindex


PreachParsly wrote:
Would I be too bold if I said that most of your worship is probably done with no music at all?

Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

I'm not sure worship is "raising your hands and shouting." Maybe that is praise. Is there a difference? I guess I see worship more as obedience and love..

Could it be true that worship encompasses praise, yet they are not one and the same?

Am I way off?

No. Can a heart issue by way off? I don't think so.

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:

You want to sandwich people into a little space and say "this is the only way to worship". But you seem to forget that your way of worship wont work for those in China who meet in caves. It wont work for that tribe in Africa. It works great in your westernized format... but God isnt an American.

They give their best to Him. That's what The Lord expects from us. They realize what is at stake which is far more than I see in the contemporary way here in our post modern church, purpose driven, church. Can it be said that is being by imitating the Rolling Stones or any other group?


:-orm

Ormly, Ormly, Ormly... I must say you have an interesting way of looking at things!

They give their best to Him. That's what The Lord expects from us. They realize what is at stake which is far more than I see in the contemporary way here in our post modern church, purpose driven, church. Can it be said that is being by imitating the Rolling Stones or any other group?

And you know they give their best? How? You're telling me , that you absolutely know their hearts and can judge their way of worship, how?? Wow! So, like, are you God?

Why bring up the argument of imitating other bands?? That is such a weak argument! Do you know that the Rolling Stones immitated some styles from bands before them and the bands before them immitated the bands before them, and so on and so on??? It is a pathetic argument. We could trace immitation all the way back to Genesis 4, whom, by the way, were followers of God! Everything today is an immitation of sorts of things past!!!

You can't argue your legalistic viewpoint, because by your examples, they show limitations on the way God can be glorified through His created. There are multiple upon multiple ways God has been worshiped all throughout time and you are judging it all based upon your narrow viewpoint on what you yourself interpret!

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:

Can a heart issue by way off? I don't think so.


Hahaha.... this is good, my friend!!! So, you're saying that your heart issue is right on target, but everyone else is way off? Wow! So, not only can you judge God's heart, but you can also judge everyone elses!? That is quite a loaded job!

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:


Worship of God isn't a time to be creative.


got all the coffee mugs and tee shirts.

Wow, so how did you get your way of worship? Didn't someone have to be creative for you to desire your way of worship? Oh, wait, no you are the originator of worship style to God and everyone has to follow exactly how you worship without any creative style whatsoever! I get it!

S
sermonindex

And there he is with his green spiked hair and broken string electric guitar with all its distortion silenced, standing before the Lord in that day and exclaiming, "I love ya man".

Somehow I don't quite see that as a probability.

Maybe better to get all that sorted out now.

;-)

B
BenBrockway



Ormly wrote:
And there he is with his green spiked hair and broken string electric guitar with all its distortion silenced, standing before the Lord in that day and exclaiming, "I love ya man".

Somehow I don't quite see that as a probability.

Maybe better to get all that sorted out now.

;-)

And you once again fail to see the point within this discussion! :-o


Whether we want to use your example or not, you judge based on the surface rather then the heart! I am so glad that you're not the judge and that I do have a God who judges based on the heart!

S
sermonindex


BenBrockway wrote:



Ormly wrote:
And there he is with his green spiked hair and broken string electric guitar with all its distortion silenced, standing before the Lord in that day and exclaiming, "I love ya man".

Somehow I don't quite see that as a probability.

Maybe better to get all that sorted out now.

;-)

And you once again fail to see the point within this discussion! :-o


Whether we want to use your example or not, you judge based on the surface rather then the heart! I am so glad that yuo're not the judge and that I do have a God who judges based on the heart!


Yes, I know.

G
ginnyrose

Just want to say a few words here...do not want to be intruding, but will anyways... :-o

These modern musicians, do they radiate the love of Jesus and his peace? I have never seen them do this. They all look so sad, afraid, angry...and you say they love Jesus? Sorry....I do not see them filled with the joy of the LORD...and their music (sound) reflects this frustration with life.

ginnyrose

M
mamaluk

Not hardly. I believe God is Holy and His Holiness is something to be revered and approached with fear and trembling, held in awe and to be given our best. Even the some sloppy contemporary music speaks of His "awesomeness" yet violate it in His presence.

Absolutely, anything short of this Holiness and Awesomeness will not be acceptable, yet these elements, I believe, are embedded in the totality of Christ, so that when we are commanded to worship God in Spirit (Christ's Spirit) and in Truth (Christ/Truth Manifest), anything remotely distracts us from our attention to the acknowledgment of Christ and His glory is nothing but the "strange fire" in the Pentateuch.
While anything that draws our hearts towards the adoration of Christ,here, obviously the Holy Spirit and the Holy Word, pleases God. Chaotic or licentious "worship" music destroys this awesomeness and entices the flesh. In fact, this sort of music induces "self-worship".



They give their best to Him. That's what The Lord expects from us. They realize what is at stake which is far more than I see in the contemporary way here in our post modern, purpose driven, church. Can it be said that is being done by imitating the Rolling Stones or any other group

As for this " best", it is again nothing short of Christ's Blood that can please the Father. Remembering God told us that our righteousness is but filthy rags.:) I suppose then, if the music and lyrics draw our [i]hearts and minds [/i]in presenting Christ to God, rather than producing merely fleshly emotions or even gushing tears without the acknowledgment of or gratitude towards Christ.

[color=0000CC]John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers[b] shall[/b] worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.[/color]

Worship of God isn't a time to be creative.

Totally agreed. Given these verses alone, anything aside from Truth and Spirit, are "strange fire".

[color=0000CC]John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him[b] must[/b] worship him in spirit and in truth.[/color]

All this talk we hear so much about " you don't know what's in one's heart"..funny, what [i]is [/i]there to know? The Bible had already told us what are in the sinners' hearts. However, we are told to discern or judge by the fruits that are produced from the hearts. In this case, if any "worship" activities conduct music brings out chaos and vain displays of emotions or raves showmanship, they represent "strange fires".

Yeah, any worship that violates the above 2 verses is "strange fire".


B
BenBrockway


mamaluk wrote:

All this talk we hear so much about " you don't know what's in one's heart"..funny, what [i]is [/i]there to know? The Bible had already told us what are in the sinners' hearts. However, we are told to discern or judge by the fruits that are produced from the hearts. In this case, if any "worship" activities conduct music brings out chaos and vain displays of emotions or raves showmanship, they represent "strange fires".

Yeah, any worship that violates the above 2 verses is "strange fire".

So, I guess we could throw out all of Psalms, or even the Song of Solomon! Many written in/with chaos and many with your interpretation of vain displays of emotion. How sad!

You are right in the fruit that comes out of our lives... So are you saying that just because I love Christian rock music, that my hearts desire for revival and the fact that I and a buddy constantly pray to see it come, is a bad fruit? Wow! Such harsh judgement! You know not my heart but that I am a sinner. I know not that it is wise to base your judgement upon your intrepretations! We could go on and on in arguing what God sees as edifying and holy worship, because of the Scripture you present and the Scriptures I present! We are all right to a degree, but ultimatly, thank God, it isn't up to you to interpret my heart in worship, it is up to God!

S
sermonindex

And there he is with his green spiked hair and broken string electric guitar

I think that went out around 1983, didnt it?

Ormly... looking back on this thread, and reviewing the way you have wrenched my words out of context, put words in my mouth, ignored half of what I said, and generally misinterpretted everything I have said... it makes me wonder if you do the same to scripture, and thats why you are saying some rather odd things on this thread.

Besides, this thread was about creativity in music, and you have turned it into your own little peck and scratch soapbox about God only knows what. There is no point to anything your apparently trying to say.

I'm not mad or frustrated at you... just wondering if you have a point to all this? I'm scratching my head over here! Getting my fingers thru my green spikey hair isnt as easy as one might think! (Actually, I have the same "high & tight" I've had since the Marine Corp.)

Krispy

S
sermonindex

We could go on and on in arguing what God sees as edifying and holy worship, because of the Scripture you present and the Scriptures I present!

Edify!!?? Is that what worship is all about? If so, who is to be edified? God, to whom the worship is to be directed? You, me, the congregation who should be worshipping? To be edified in worship of God, you say? A strange understanding you have of worship to God to say nothing of the unacceptable sounds offered up.

But that is this "strange fire" age, as Mamaluk so apply states it.

S
sermonindex


KrispyKrittr wrote:
And there he is with his green spiked hair and broken string electric guitar

I think that went out around 1983, didnt it?

Ormly... looking back on this thread, and reviewing the way you have wrenched my words out of context, put words in my mouth, ignored half of what I said, and generally misinterpretted everything I have said... it makes me wonder if you do the same to scripture, and thats why you are saying some rather odd things on this thread.

Besides, this thread was about creativity in music, and you have turned it into your own little peck and scratch soapbox about God only knows what. There is no point to anything your apparently trying to say.

I'm not mad or frustrated at you... just wondering if you have a point to all this? I'm scratching my head over here! Getting my fingers thru my green spikey hair isnt as easy as one might think! (Actually, I have the same "high & tight" I've had since the Marine Corp.)

Krispy

Sorry, but you will have to be more forthcoming with what words you believe I have wrenched out of context and placed in your mouth. AND what odd "things" am I'm saying on this thread that you don't seem to think, fit?

FWIW, Green spiked hair is still with us. I see it, but not often.

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:
We could go on and on in arguing what God sees as edifying and holy worship, because of the Scripture you present and the Scriptures I present!

Edify!!?? Is that what worship is all about? If so, who is to be edified? God, to whom the worship is to be directed? You, me, the congregation who should be worshipping? To be edified in worship of God, you say? A strange understanding you have of worship to God to say nothing of the unacceptable sounds offered up.

But that is this "strange fire" age, as Mamaluk so apply states it.


You LOVE to take out of context, my friend. That is the only way you can deem yourself right. You take what is not and make it what is.

S
sermonindex

Words do mean something. So say what you mean and mean what you say.

M
mamaluk

So are you saying that just because I love Christian rock music, that my hearts desire for revival and the fact that I and a buddy constantly pray to see it come, is a bad fruit? Wow! Such harsh judgement! You know not my heart but that I am a sinner. I know not that it is wise to base your judgement upon your intrepretations! We could go on and on in arguing what God sees as edifying and holy worship, because of the Scripture you present and the Scriptures I present! We are all right to a degree, but ultimatly, thank God, it isn't up to you to interpret my heart in worship, it is up to God!

BenBrockway,

Please don't be so sensitive, my post was mainly in response to Ormly and Krispy, because I agree with both of them in some ways. As for you, I don't even think I read your posts.

Rock and roll music is fine, classical music is fine, for enjoyment purposes, but for worship, one must comply to those verses in John. If rock and roll music brings your heart and mind to Christ, indeed, God alone can judge. One can not be too careful nowadays, for there are so many false jesus out there and so many false preachers and teachers out there..you know..

No harsh judgment at all, it is GOD who said that we MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. Someone else brought out a great point, is music even necessary? In fact, that's my take on this.

I listen to great hymnals throughout the day, but I don't worship with music at all. For I too, have long left the church buildings for quite some time now.

Ben, normally I'm always prone to apologizing to whomever I offend, but I wouldn't to you in this case, because I had no clue that you would take this so personally. Meaning, I had no intent to offend you at all.

I don't suppose I need to apologize to all those who worship with rock and roll music, for if that's the case, then they will have to apologize back to me for worshipping with no music.

sigh.. makes no sense !?

EDIT: No, I won't ever throw out any part of the Bible, I did mention the Word, worshipping in God's Spririt and God's Truth ( Word )! :)

M
mamaluk

These modern musicians, do they radiate the love of Jesus and his peace? I have never seen them do this. They all look so sad, afraid, angry...and you say they love Jesus? Sorry....I do not see them filled with the joy of the LORD...and their music (sound) reflects this frustration with life.

Ginnyrose, excellent observations!!

S
sermonindex

Rock and roll music is fine, classical music is fine, for enjoyment purposes, but for worship, one must comply to those verses in John.

...wish I had a dime for everytime I have said that in just this thread alone! (But then Ormly would accuse me of greed and being a money changer... LOL)

Krispy

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I have never seen them do this. They all look so sad,

Be careful with this... one thing I tell married couples in counceling is "Never say never, always, everyone and all" because it's hardly ever true.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
I have never seen them do this. They all look so sad,

Or angry

Be careful with this... one thing I tell married couples in counceling is "Never say never, always, everyone and all" because it's hardly ever true.

Krispy

Hardly ever can readily be applied to the worship music being worshipful.... hardly ever is it.

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sermonindex

You really enjoy being provocative, dont you Ormly.

While you're busy throwing judgement around, perhaps you should check your own heart and attitude. You might be surprised by what you find.

I certainly come against many things on this forum, but the arrogance you are demonstrating on this thread is really over the top.

You've ruined a perfectly good thread about music and creativity by diverging completely away from the topic.

As the originator of this particular thread about creativity and music, I'm asking you politely to refrain from posting on it anymore. I cant make you, I'm not a moderator... I'm just asking... one brother to another.

If you want to argue (and that seems to be all you want to do) please start a different thread.

Krispy

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PTywama3

Hey Krispy,

It's my turn to be provocative! Um... ok.

Well, in any case, I wanna know something. When you are listening to music, do you generally go for style or content? I have to ask, because it really does make a bit of difference. I know you've stated that when you're at home (aloneish) with your wife, you might put on jazz, and I get the impression that an acoustic guitar or piano might be the extent of the "band" in the Sunday services you normally inhabit if someone's feeling overly zealous. Totally not sure on that one, but that's my impression. Aside from that, I really don't know if you've discussed much, really.

I know you mentioned one hold-on band from the decade or so before I was born. Don't get me wrong, here, but its my generation's parents (the same ones who say "you call this noise music?") who keep them up and running by and large. I don't think it necessarily fair to pin that on "today's" popular musicians.

And maybe I'm nuts, but does anyone else note a growing trend in the popularity of music with the word "God" in it? Or just bands who actually do put Christian lyrics (and emphasis) into music "all the kids" buy?

I mean, I've heard it. I've seen it. We may be seeing a force of the word "God" from everything that thinks its political, but for some odd reason it's creeping back into an understood popular media.

Still nobody has answered me, though, on the point of style (except for maybe Compton... sorta). Consistency within cycles of sound is usually there, and it always has been. Everything I've seen so far has been an issue of personal taste, and the "decline of music" seems as much an issue of personal forbearance as anything else. I think we believe the world is just getting dumber.

Ya buy 'em books, ya send 'em to school... and what do they do? Think they can write music.

....Thanks, ma.


And 'fore you chime in with "music played badly is still bad music..." Ormly, try to think of it this way: words read poorly are not poor words, books written poorly for an audience do not necessarily connotate unimportant concepts, and water poorly cared for is what most people still rely on for nourishment. Aside from that, a great deal of it is personal taste. I've met people who can't stand Mozart... people older than GenX, for all those of you who have to wonder.

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Compton

We may be seeing a force of the word "God" from everything that thinks its political, but for some odd reason it's creeping back into an understood popular media.

So much for the cultural and political wars...I suppose if politicians and entertainers of all stripes start competing for the religous consumer then it must mean we have successfully pursuaded the politicians and the culture of our 'force." Isn't that a victory?

Great news...we have increased economic and political power with the republicans, democrats and hollywood...but spiritually we are irrelelvant to them.

Goodness gracious we've been sold a bunch of ketchup popsicles by our evangelical leaders...cultural war indeed!

The only war that matters is the battle against spiritual principalities...and getting a politican or a movie studio exec to wink at us is hardly a spiritual victory. In fact, the devil is not only a pretty good theologian...he's also pretty good at political divisiveness and cultural amusement. (I wouldn't be surprised if he wears a Christian t-shirt too.)

Some tried to tell us we were Nehemiah rebuilding the wall...when it's more accurate to say we are Lot being called out of Sodom.

Dont look back!

MC

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ginnyrose

Krispy,
Perhaps you should relax a bit, don't you think? Ok, so I used the word 'never' in my post and you took exception to it and to you it discredits whatever I said.

Whenever I go into a Christian bookstore and they have all these CDs on display with the performers pics on it, I do not see the joy of the LORD radiating from their faces. Do you? Do they look like they are at peace with God and the world? I haven't seen any...there may be some but not the last time I looked. In fact they look so bad I ignore them and buy my music elsewhere. So I am lumping all the CCM musicians together. Fair? I do not know. Maybe not. But it is not my style to look among junk to find a treasure. It is too depressing.

Mind if I tell you how I have had these kind of performers as clients at CPC? (They were single...should never had to come to us...)And would you know my clients will go to church just to listen to their music? I asked my clients why do you go to church? Every last one said to hear the music. Krispy, if you know anything about the history of revivals, music played a very important role in bring about conviction to the persons attending. What kind of music is this that keeps people comfortable in their sins? This is a serious question that needs to be carefully considered.

Now if you like it, that is between you and God. Just do not play it when I come around! 8-)

ginnyrose

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tpique1

I hope you don't mind if I get in on this conversation. I'm a little new around here. This is also a little long, but I hope you read it. I ran a Christian Rock station for a while and it's a little different BEHIND the music than it is in front of it like the average person is.

Going back to the original poster's article, I think I agree with the original premise, but he has taken liberty in certain points.

Rock is distinguished from other music, as is punk rock, hip-hop, and other genres that have evolved parallel to or out of it.

The biggest problem I have found with much of modern music is that its first aim is to feed the flesh not the spirit. This can easily be seen in how arguments arise out of discussing it. The fact that it even has to be defended should indicate its pull on our lives sometimes.

The argument regarding music always ends in a stark debate. This alone shows the condition of our hearts. Some of us have become so enamored with music that it has even become an idol in our lives. There were many times in my own life, especially during the radio years that I was absolutely obsessed with the music. I couldn't get enough of it.

But this is the draw of music as a tool of the enemy sometimes; to draw us away from a relationship with God and into a place of self-centeredness. Remember Adam and Eve? Satan took the emphasis off of God and put it on them. He made Adam and Eve focus on what they wanted instead of being content with what they had. God had given them everything in the garden but the one tree. But the devil convinced them that that tree was the ONE THING they NEEDED! So, by him turning their focus to themselves instead of God, they disobeyed God and sinned.

The devil still works that way, and I believe he does it through music. Our focus becomes so much about the music and whether or not we will like it, that we can't even enter into God's presence anymore. We have taken the focus off of God where it belongs and put it on us, just like Adam & Eve did. And in doing this, we sin.

I have family members who won't go to a church unless it has "good music"! That's their test. Not the Word of God or the Spirit of God, but the music!

The test of music shouldn't be style, but the effect it's having on us.. If we can't walk away from it and say, "God I give it to you, I don't need it, it's not the love of my heart, YOU ARE Lord," then it has become idolatry and a stumbling block to us. Music is for God, not for us.

And let me throw this wrench in while I'm at it if I may, God doesn't NEED us to play music to be worshipped! Did you know that? Can you worship Him WITHOUT music? If you can't, then perhaps music has too strong a pull on your heart. God is concerned with the adoration that is offered from our hearts, not our instruments.

Let me say that again, God is concerned with a heart of adoration and worship than what comes out of an instrument.

Do you know why God could get more glory out of musicless worship than with it? Because often times with music WE get more glory from playing it than He gets from receiving it.

I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard through worship leaders I've worked with how they've been asked to play a conference, but when they get there they run into musicians who were haughty and uncooperative because they thought that they were the better musician. To some, it's a competition to be seen and noticed rather than invisible and surrendered.

I believe this is why hymns were big on WORDS and small on MUSIC. Because it was the words that led people to the throne of God, not the music. The music helped, yes, but it was what they were SAYING to God that led them there and not whether or not they liked the song or its style.

Notice that one focuses on God, the other focuses on "me". Like with Adam & Eve, if the devil can take my emphasis off of God and put it on "me" then he's won.

I implore with you, don't be like I was and let music become an idol in your life. If it has a hold on your heart then jettison it. Losing that intimacy with God is not worth the moment of pleasure.

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PaulWest

You know, when I walk through a Christian bookstore and see the flashy CD covers enlarged like posters and hanging crooked on the wall, the band members standing there wearing all black, grungy jeans, messed-up hair, looking like a bunch of mean thugs...I am completely turned off. Is this reflecting the purity of Christ? No, this is 100% world. It just screams WORLD. I believe these bands are mainly for the appeasement of false converts, because, let's face it, they seem to attract them. I have yet to see a mature Christian walking in holiness and who is fully surrendered to God listening to these radio bands and being edified or fed by them. I mean, can you picture Leonard Ravenhill worshipping God to their music? I can't even stand being in Christian bookstores for long just because their awful music is so annoying. I tell my wife I have to leave. Seriously, I'd rather listen to secular stuff if I had to. Put on Pavorotti or whatever, just take off this ugly, worldy, musically lame-sounding misrepresentation of God's majesty.

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Compton

It is true what Paul is saying here.

You know whenever you return from traveling overseas and enter the customs area for entry into the country you'll see a great big sign telling you to throw all foreign fruit in the trash bins. Apparently there are some standards or regulations to follow...

Not so in the church these days...our customs agents let everything through the door...that is after they've stamped it "Christian". Sensuality, greed, ambition, fashion...it's all gets a stamp. In many churches they actually let big stinky elephants come right on in without any concern for community health and let the thing plant it's big saggy carcass right on the stage next to the wooden cross...and in still other churches the management will build stalls for these wild donkeys where people have to eat. The preachers will even share their pulpits with these beasts. Of course all of these unclean things and political animals foul any fragrance of worship that would bring the Lord pleasure, but the congregation grows so used to the smells they don't even notice...

All the world is a sanctified oyster once in church.

MC

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Compton

I am thankful that SI does have diligent customs agents. ;-)

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PaulWest

In many churches they actually let big stinky elephants come right on in without any concern for community health and let the thing plant it's big saggy carcass right on the stage next to the wooden cross...and in still other churches the management will build stalls for these wild donkeys where people have to eat.

Brilliant. What a visual. One big, stinking petting zoo, a flying circus. I'm so tired of it. I'm so tired of the foul-smelling goats with their stupid, lifeless programs and trendy-sounding music that kills rather than gives life. How much more before the Spirit reforms the church? Before whips come smashing down on the back of the elephant? I reckon there'll be a real stampede on that day when the Lord begins tearing down the stalls and draining the watering holes.

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Compton

Awesome completion on the pass brother.

How much more before the Spirit reforms the church? Before whips come smashing down on the back of the elephant?

My eyes fill with tears at the thought...may this be the very hour that the Lord comes in with a fury and chases all these filthy animals and these greedy sellers out of his house.

May this be the time when desciples remember it was written;

ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME.

Our fear that the Lord may visit us with fire is being overtaken by a greater fear that he could elect to never visit us with fire again...

God, in mercy remember us.

MC

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sermonindex


PaulWest wrote:
In many churches they actually let big stinky elephants come right on in without any concern for community health and let the thing plant it's big saggy carcass right on the stage next to the wooden cross...and in still other churches the management will build stalls for these wild donkeys where people have to eat.

Brilliant. What a visual. One big, stinking petting zoo, a flying circus. I'm so tired of it. I'm so tired of the foul-smelling goats with their stupid, lifeless programs and trendy-sounding music that kills rather than gives life. How much more before the Spirit reforms the church? Before whips come smashing down on the back of the elephant? I reckon there'll be a real stampede on that day when the Lord begins tearing down the stalls and draining the watering holes.

....and I thought my use of the words "inhibits worship" was sufficiently strong language. Wow! Its good to know I don't stand alone. I was beginning to fear as Elijah.

Using whips sound like whats needed if this zoo is to be removed from the holy place. As with politcal opponents: Its getting to be more of them than us. The reason needs be asked, Why?
:-(

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sermonindex

Well... let me start the day off by saying that I was a little harsh on Ormly.

Ormly, I apologize for asking you not to post on this particular thread. While I do feel that you're not really understanding most of what I am saying... I think a better way that I could have handled it yesterday would have been to ask you to refrain from casting out comments that appear to be judgmental.

Let me explain...

In other words... try to find a way of expressing yourself without casting a blanket over everything. I think we err when we dismiss all contemporary music, or all books, or all anything.

This thread was never meant to be about worship, and while I certain understand that there is a certain ebb and flow to conversations... this one went waaaaay off course. The thing that bothers me is that there were many here who had some good things to say about artistic creativity... but everytime the conversation started to get back on course it would only be diverted again into something that wasnt related to the topic.

So now we end up with 16 or so pages on this thread... with very little of it relating to the topic.

Ormly, my brother, I want your input on this thread as it relates to the topic. You do ask searching questions, and thats good. I just ask that you dont draw such broad conclusions about people and things. You've drawn some extremely broad conclusions about me which were very wrong. I've written almost 2,500 posts on this forum on a plethura of issues... but you seem to have made your conclusions about me based on my taste of music.

All I'm asking is that you not be so quick to do that. And try and stay on topic.

Brother Ormly, I love ya! I really do. We've even joked a little on this thread. I'm a nice guy, as I'm sure you are. We are not enemies... we are on the same team, but we play different positions. I'm a linebacker, and you're a wide-out. I like to blitz and bang heads... you like to be elusive and make people think. But the fact is, we are teammates. We're working toward the same goal.

Hope we can score! What do ya say?

Krispy

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[/b]PTywama3[/b] asked:

Well, in any case, I wanna know something. When you are listening to music, do you generally go for style or content? I have to ask, because it really does make a bit of difference. I know you've stated that when you're at home (aloneish) with your wife, you might put on jazz, and I get the impression that an acoustic guitar or piano might be the extent of the "band" in the Sunday services you normally inhabit if someone's feeling overly zealous. Totally not sure on that one, but that's my impression. Aside from that, I really don't know if you've discussed much, really.

Content and style. If the content (lyrics) is garbage, then I dont consider it worth listening to. On the other hand, many Christians wont listen to Mozart's music because he was a pervert and drunk. Yet, I think his music is incredible. Easily my favorite classical composer. I dont care for opera... and his were all in languages I dont understand anyway. But his non-operetic compositions are some of the most beautiful music ever written. When I listen to it I dont think about "Wow... Mozart was a pervert." I enjoy the music for what it is... beautiful. Creative. Innovative. It's the music I'm listening to, not the composer. God gave him an incredible gift, and he used it. I wish I could say that for most Christians. When I listen, I'm enjoying the gift that God gave Mozart, not Mozart himself. Does that make sense?

Now, if Mozart put English words to his music, and the singer was singing about perverted wicked things... I would not listen. I dont care for Opera, so I dont listen to his Opera's... so thats a moot point for me.

We havent really discussed instrumentation in a worship service. I know I have said some forms of music are not appropriate for worship. For instance, I like a band from Sweden called Narnia. ( http://www.narniaworld.com/ ) I enjoy their music stylistically, and I think the content is fantastic. There is no doubt that they love God. Some would think their music may be a little "dark" at times, but they also tackle subjects in their lyrics that your typical Top 40 Christian glitz-pop singer isnt going to come near. Hey... Keith Green's music was "dark" at times. Listen the his song "The Sheep And The Goats" sometime.

But Narnia's music is not something that will lead a fellowship of believers into a time of quiet worship. Thats not it's intent.

As far as instrumentation, I set no limits on what instruments should be used in worship. Psalms lists all sorts of instruments that were to be used in the temple. Yea... if you can play one of those musical wood saws... and you play it unto the Lord... go for it. Just play it skillfully is all I ask.

In our fellowships we generally only have accoustic guitars, but thats because our fellowships meet in people's living rooms. A 6 piece band just isnt practical.

Does that answer your questions? I know I said I wanted to stick to music and creativity... but you asked this, and I wanted to answer.

But in a way, this does relate because we are talking about creativity. So grab your wood saw, and lets worship our Creator!

By the way, son, I'm only 39. Cut me some slack on the mom and pops thing!! LOL

Krispy

B
BenBrockway


mamaluk wrote:
So are you saying that just because I love Christian rock music, that my hearts desire for revival and the fact that I and a buddy constantly pray to see it come, is a bad fruit? Wow! Such harsh judgement! You know not my heart but that I am a sinner. I know not that it is wise to base your judgement upon your intrepretations! We could go on and on in arguing what God sees as edifying and holy worship, because of the Scripture you present and the Scriptures I present! We are all right to a degree, but ultimatly, thank God, it isn't up to you to interpret my heart in worship, it is up to God!

BenBrockway,

Please don't be so sensitive, my post was mainly in response to Ormly and Krispy, because I agree with both of them in some ways. As for you, I don't even think I read your posts.

Rock and roll music is fine, classical music is fine, for enjoyment purposes, but for worship, one must comply to those verses in John. If rock and roll music brings your heart and mind to Christ, indeed, God alone can judge. One can not be too careful nowadays, for there are so many false jesus out there and so many false preachers and teachers out there..you know..

No harsh judgment at all, it is GOD who said that we MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. Someone else brought out a great point, is music even necessary? In fact, that's my take on this.

I listen to great hymnals throughout the day, but I don't worship with music at all. For I too, have long left the church buildings for quite some time now.

Ben, normally I'm always prone to apologizing to whomever I offend, but I wouldn't to you in this case, because I had no clue that you would take this so personally. Meaning, I had no intent to offend you at all.

I don't suppose I need to apologize to all those who worship with rock and roll music, for if that's the case, then they will have to apologize back to me for worshipping with no music.

sigh.. makes no sense !?

EDIT: No, I won't ever throw out any part of the Bible, I did mention the Word, worshipping in God's Spririt and God's Truth ( Word )! :)

No apology neccasary. I am only sensitive about this subject, because this is an age old argument and will continue to be so! I find it interesting that people say, "We shouldn't have music," when in Scripture, all over the place, there was music. People also say, "We should just stick with the hymns," when, ironically, those where too contemporary back in the day, too! Especially when some of the hymns were written to the beat of bar music!!! I just think it's all stupid.

I agree that we should worship in Spirit and in truth.

I would consider this truth:

Awesome God
Rich Mullins

When He rolls up His sleeves
He ain't just putting on the ritz
(Our God is an awesome God)
There's thunder in His footsteps
And lightning in His fists
(Our God is an awesome God)
And the Lord wasn't joking
When He kicked 'em out of Eden
It wasn't for no reason
That He shed His blood
His return is very close
And so you better be believing that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

And when the sky was starless
In the void of the night
(Our God is an awesome God)
He spoke into the darkness
And created the light
(Our God is an awesome God)
Judgement and wrath He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not
Too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God (Our God is an awesome God)
He reigns from heaven above (He reigns from heaven above)
With wisdom, power, and love (With wisdom, power, and love)
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
Our God is an awesome God

This is also Truth (it's almost Psalm-like):

Skillet
(You are My Hope)
Times are hard
Times have changed
Don't you say
But I keep holding on to you
It's hard to keep the faith alive day to day
Leaning on the strength I've found in you
You're the hope of all the Earth

You are my hope
You are my strength
You're everything
Everything I need
You are my hope
You are my life
You are my hope
You are my hope

Far beyond what I can see or comprehend
Etching your eternity in me
Nations stream and angels sing, "Jesus reigns"
And every knee bows down
You're the hope of all the Earth

You are my hope
You are my strength
You're everything
Everything I need
You are my hope
You are my life
You are my hope
You are my hope

Carry on and I sing of how
You love and I love you now
All the times that I start to sink
You come and you rescue me
You are my hope
You are my hope

Both are rock songs and both proclaim timeless truths and are very worshipful.

S
sermonindex

Now... If I may, I would like to bring a little focus back this thread.

Most of y'all have been conversating with me long enough to know that I do [b]not[/b] in any way promote the modern CCM industry, and I do [b]not[/b] in any way promote most of those who perform CCM.

CCM, as it is today, is about money. Not God. Money. It is about finding singers that look and act like the world in order to sell CD's. Many of the women singers in CCM dress immodestly. Most of the performers are not accountable to any local fellowship. Many are extremely ecumenical, which indicates to me that they do not understand sound doctrine.

There are very few performers that I advocate. Steve Camp, Keith Green, people like that are the only ones I publicly promote to others.

Many will argue that the extreme worldliness in CCM today is because they have adopted the world's music. I do not think that is true. I know many local musicians who dont get paid a dime for their music, and they play modern music... and they are in it 100% for ministry, and they are some of the most on fire people you'd ever meet.

Whats the difference? Money.

Money is what has made CCM what it is today. Greed. Lust. Not music. Music is not sin. Love of money is sin. Greed is sin. Lust is sin. Preferring the applause of man over the approval of God is sin. Yoking together with secular record companies and owners is sin.

And money is what stifles creativity. There is no money in being creative... it's too risky.

So if you want to understand why CCM as an industry is rotten to the core... you have to begin by looking at the wallet.

I would rather listen to a secular artist who is at least honest enough to say he's in it for the money than to listen to some "Christian" singer who says he gives God all the glory while he's signing autographs of his own pictures... or worse yet... autographing Bibles. (that practice turns my stomache)

Krispy

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:
I have never seen them do this. They all look so sad,

Be careful with this... one thing I tell married couples in counceling is "Never say never, always, everyone and all" because it's hardly ever true.


AMEN!!
Krispy

B
BenBrockway


tpique1 wrote:

The test of music shouldn't be style, but the effect it's having on us.. If we can't walk away from it and say, "God I give it to you, I don't need it, it's not the love of my heart, YOU ARE Lord," then it has become idolatry and a stumbling block to us. Music is for God, not for us.

And let me throw this wrench in while I'm at it if I may, God doesn't NEED us to play music to be worshipped! Did you know that? Can you worship Him WITHOUT music? If you can't, then perhaps music has too strong a pull on your heart. God is concerned with the adoration that is offered from our hearts, not our instruments.

Let me say that again, God is concerned with a heart of adoration and worship than what comes out of an instrument.

I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard through worship leaders I've worked with how they've been asked to play a conference, but when they get there they run into musicians who were haughty and uncooperative because they thought that they were the better musician. To some, it's a competition to be seen and noticed rather than invisible and surrendered.

I believe this is why hymns were big on WORDS and small on MUSIC. Because it was the words that led people to the throne of God, not the music. The music helped, yes, but it was what they were SAYING to God that led them there and not whether or not they liked the song or its style.

I implore with you, don't be like I was and let music become an idol in your life. If it has a hold on your heart then jettison it. Losing that intimacy with God is not worth the moment of pleasure.

Amen... I agree! It is a matter of the heart!

S
sermonindex

I agree too...

The issue of the lack of creativity in music seems to be stuck on a worship theme. Why is that?

Thats a legitimate question I'm asking. Am I the only one who simply enjoys music for what it is... does it always have to have regulations and limitations? To me, that stifles creativity as much as money does.

Is there no place in the Church for creative expression? God is a wonderful Creator... and since we are made in His image, wouldnt that suggest that we are created to be creative?

Krispy

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PaulWest

Hey Krispy,

With all due respect, I see a issue with many Christian popular artists that extends far beyond mere money. I think the lust for money and top ten Christian billboard ratings are but symptoms of a greater underlying disease: false conversion. I seriously doubt that more than 5% off these artists are truly born again by the Spirit of God. Worldliness simply [i]exudes[/i] from everythng they touch, from their "abstract" band names and enticing promotional images (all youth-geared) straight down to the actual music they perform. Having the "right words" means absolutely nothing. And most of the time, the words are so watered-down and limp that you would think they were singing about their girlfriends or boyfriends rather than God.

I see how these imposters have infiltrated the church, raped the ears of our youth with their impotent garbage that caters to fleshly emotions rather than true self-denial and holiness. And because they mention "Jesus" or "I love God", we are to allow this medium free reign in the church? We are so blind, and do our youth a great disservice by condoning this stuff. A newly-saved believer may not know any better (though they will very soon, if they are truly born-again), thinking all that glitters is gold, but [i]we[/i] the parents, the guardians, the prophets and priests of our families should be keeping watch over the temple gates. It is especially dangerous because these artists, I believe, [i]mean well[/i], and sincerly believe they are true Christians, but the truth is most of them are false converts, two-fold children of hell, encompassing land and sea to feed others their poison during these "Christian rock festivals", while denying a holy God and turning His grace into lasciviousness.

Many churches (mine included) have incorported this false-convert entertainment into the Sunday morning praise and worship agenda. Do you have any idea what it is like after communing with God all week long, bathing yourself in scripture and feasting on Puritanical commentaires...and then having to come to church on Sunday and listen to the unctionless clamor of the goats? The feeling is akin to biting down on tin foil. And the ones who enjoy these "songs" the most are the ones living in open sin, the unregenerate kids who think they are saved, who know all the words, have the CD's, have the posters pinned up to the walls in their bedroom. To them, this is true Chritianity! In their minds, because their emotions have formed a bond with the message of the music, they consider themselves saved. Speak of the glorious hymns of Wesley and Watts and they'll frown. "Hymns? You've got to be kidding. That stuff is so old and boring. Who listens to hymns anymore?" Ask them who the Wesley brothers were. They have no clue - nor do they care. And the parents are just so happy! They're happy that it's Skillet and not Metallica or Ozzy being pinned up. I sometimes believe (and I imagine many will disagree with me here) that the polluted worship of Christendom will cause more damage in the long run than the outright unbelieving secular rock and metal bands. Because poison is easier to avoid when someone leaves the label on the bottle.

Brother Paul

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:
Now... If I may, I would like to bring a little focus back this thread.

Most of y'all have been conversating with me long enough to know that I do [b]not[/b] in any way promote the modern CCM industry, and I do [b]not[/b] in any way promote most of those who perform CCM.

CCM, as it is today, is about money. Not God. Money. It is about finding singers that look and act like the world in order to sell CD's. Many of the women singers in CCM dress immodestly. Most of the performers are not accountable to any local fellowship. Many are extremely ecumenical, which indicates to me that they do not understand sound doctrine.

There are very few performers that I advocate. Steve Camp, Keith Green, people like that are the only ones I publicly promote to others.

Many will argue that the extreme worldliness in CCM today is because they have adopted the world's music. I do not think that is true. I know many local musicians who dont get paid a dime for their music, and they play modern music... and they are in it 100% for ministry, and they are some of the most on fire people you'd ever meet.

Whats the difference? Money.

Money is what has made CCM what it is today. Greed. Lust. Not music. Music is not sin. Love of money is sin. Greed is sin. Lust is sin. Preferring the applause of man over the approval of God is sin. Yoking together with secular record companies and owners is sin.

And money is what stifles creativity. There is no money in being creative... it's too risky.

So if you want to understand why CCM as an industry is rotten to the core... you have to begin by looking at the wallet.

I would rather listen to a secular artist who is at least honest enough to say he's in it for the money than to listen to some "Christian" singer who says he gives God all the glory while he's signing autographs of his own pictures... or worse yet... autographing Bibles. (that practice turns my stomache)

Krispy

Again... Amen!

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:
[/b]PTywama3[/b] asked:

Well, in any case, I wanna know something. When you are listening to music, do you generally go for style or content? I have to ask, because it really does make a bit of difference. I know you've stated that when you're at home (aloneish) with your wife, you might put on jazz, and I get the impression that an acoustic guitar or piano might be the extent of the "band" in the Sunday services you normally inhabit if someone's feeling overly zealous. Totally not sure on that one, but that's my impression. Aside from that, I really don't know if you've discussed much, really.

Content and style. If the content (lyrics) is garbage, then I dont consider it worth listening to. On the other hand, many Christians wont listen to Mozart's music because he was a pervert and drunk. Yet, I think his music is incredible. Easily my favorite classical composer. I dont care for opera... and his were all in languages I dont understand anyway. But his non-operetic compositions are some of the most beautiful music ever written. When I listen to it I dont think about "Wow... Mozart was a pervert." I enjoy the music for what it is... beautiful. Creative. Innovative. It's the music I'm listening to, not the composer. God gave him an incredible gift, and he used it. I wish I could say that for most Christians. When I listen, I'm enjoying the gift that God gave Mozart, not Mozart himself. Does that make sense?

Now, if Mozart put English words to his music, and the singer was singing about perverted wicked things... I would not listen. I dont care for Opera, so I dont listen to his Opera's... so thats a moot point for me.

We havent really discussed instrumentation in a worship service. I know I have said some forms of music are not appropriate for worship. For instance, I like a band from Sweden called Narnia. ( http://www.narniaworld.com/ ) I enjoy their music stylistically, and I think the content is fantastic. There is no doubt that they love God. Some would think their music may be a little "dark" at times, but they also tackle subjects in their lyrics that your typical Top 40 Christian glitz-pop singer isnt going to come near. Hey... Keith Green's music was "dark" at times. Listen the his song "The Sheep And The Goats" sometime.

But Narnia's music is not something that will lead a fellowship of believers into a time of quiet worship. Thats not it's intent.

As far as instrumentation, I set no limits on what instruments should be used in worship. Psalms lists all sorts of instruments that were to be used in the temple. Yea... if you can play one of those musical wood saws... and you play it unto the Lord... go for it. Just play it skillfully is all I ask.

In our fellowships we generally only have accoustic guitars, but thats because our fellowships meet in people's living rooms. A 6 piece band just isnt practical.

Does that answer your questions? I know I said I wanted to stick to music and creativity... but you asked this, and I wanted to answer.

But in a way, this does relate because we are talking about creativity. So grab your wood saw, and lets worship our Creator!

By the way, son, I'm only 39. Cut me some slack on the mom and pops thing!! LOL

Krispy

Agreed, Krispy. It should be content. I love music and I always have. I think why I am so passionate about what I believe on this thread is because I grew up a PK. Being a PK cause me to want the attention of being up front, so I myslef, wanted to start a band. I loved the idea of getting people's attention... while giving glory to God. After several years of trying and failing, the Lord really began to work in me and show me that worship isn't about me at all. God gave me the creativity to use it for HIS glory and to only have the things I do with my hands, mouth, and attitude be focused on him. Since I began learning these things, I decided that starting a band would not be for me, because I knew it would be too easy to slip back into it being about me. So..... in saying that... I turned to band promoting for a while because I wanted to promote the bands that ultimately bring a smile to God's face and Him saying, "Hey angels! That's my son(s)/daughter(s) down there!
(I'm not focusing on the band promoting these days, only because I have a heart cry for revival and want to see it come, so I decided to focus my talents elswhere, other then band promoting)

Despite what Ginnyrose feels and others think, there are bands whose content (with their focus totally on God)can draw a person to their knees in tears, because of the very presence of God entering the room. The reason I left style out of this paragraph, till now, is because, I have seen it happen with rock music, I have seen it happen with hymns, and according to the Scriptures, the Lord delighted with...

Psalm 149
1 Praise the LORD.
Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the saints.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.

3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with tambourine and harp.

4 For the LORD takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with salvation.

5 Let the saints rejoice in this honor
and sing for joy on their beds.

6 May the praise of God be in their mouths
and a double-edged sword in their hands,...

This is the glory of all his saints.
Praise the LORD.

Oh wait, even though TRUTH tells me that I can write a new song, I suppose I can't, because I must worship in Spirit and truth... as some would say! And the dancing... I guess that isn't spirit and truth... even though it delights the Lord! Let's not forget the chaoticness of the TAMBOURINE and HARP! Has everyone forgot what they sound like? Picture it in your head... doesn't it sound like "not-so-flowing," because of their totally two differt sounds and how they are played??!

Let's not forget:

Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

Hmmm....! Praise him with the CLASH OF CYMBOLS and the RESOUNDING CYMBOLS... yeah... your right... YOUR "mellow-reverence-spirit-and-truth" interpretation is the key, so this couldn't delight the Lord... even though it is Scripturally sound that it does!!! But your Bible with all of that cut out, I guess is the TRUTH!

And then it says, "Let everything that hath breath praise the Lord." So, I guess we could eliminate all lions, elephants, monkeys, and other animals whose loud noises delight the Lord! After all, why would God want to delight in his creativity!? So, why would He delight in the creative talents he gave us. But I guess the whole Spirit and Truth things disqualifies all of the loud music, dancing, and shouting in Psalms!

Ok, so yes, you can all sense some frustration here from me. I am not directing it at any one person or anything. Everyone keeps mentioning some Scripture in their own arguments but neglects to see all the other Scriptures that other bring up. To say that your Scripture is truth and my Scripture is false, is calling God himself a liar, and saying that David was an "inhibitor of worship!"

I could show you hundreds of Scripture where God is glorified in creative worship, but I won't take up the space showing you here, because after all, you have a Bible and can do the research yourself, right? Or is the "Worship God in Spirit and truth" verse, the only chapeter you have of the Bible. If that's the case, I could send you the WHOLE Bible! Let me know!


B
BenBrockway


PaulWest wrote:
Hey Krispy,

With all due respect, I see a issue with many Christian popular artists that extends far beyond mere money. I think the lust for money and top ten Christian billboard ratings are but symptoms of a greater underlying disease: false conversion. I serioulsy doubt that more than 5% off these artists are truly born again by the Spirit of God. Worldliness simply [i]exudes[/i] from everythng they touch, from their "abstract" band names and enticing promotional images (all youth-geared) straight down to the actual music they perform. Having the "right words" means absolutely nothing. And most of the time, the words are so watered-down and limp that you would think they were singing about their girlfriends or boyfriends rather than God.

I see how these imposters have infiltrated the church, raped the ears of our youth with their impotent garbage that caters to fleshly emotions rather than true self-denial and holiness. And because they mention "Jesus" or "I love God", we are to allow this medium free reign in the church? We are so blind, and do our youth a great disservice by condoning this stuff. A newly-saved believer may not know any better (though they will very soon, if they are truly born-again), thinking all that glitters is gold, but [i]we[/i] the parents, the guardians, the prophets and priests of our families should be keeping watch over the temple gates. It is especially dangerous because these artists, I believe, [i]mean well[/i], and sincerly believe they are true Christians, but the truth is most of them are false converts, two-fold children of hell, encompassing land and sea to feed others their poison during these "Christian rock festivals", while denying a holy God and turning His grace into lasciviousness.

Many churches (mine included) have incorported this false-convert entertainment into the Sunday morning praise and worship agenda. Do you have any idea what it is like after communing with God all week long, bathing yourself in scripture and feasting on Puritanical commentaires...and then having to come to church on Sunday and listen to the unctionless clamor of the goats? The feeling is akin to biting down on tin foil. And the ones who enjoy these "songs" the most are the ones living in open sin, they know all the words, have the CD's, have the posters pinned up to the walls in their bedroom. And the parents are happy! They're happy that it's not Metallica or Ozzy being pinned up. I sometimes believe (and I imagine many will disagree with me here) that the polluted worship of Christendom will cause more damage in the long run than the outright unbelieving secular rock and metal bands. Because poison is easier to avoid accidentally drinking when someone leaves the label on the bottle.

Brother Paul

I agree Paul, but to reiterate what you were saying... "There might be 5% who are truly born of the Spirit of God..." that's a lot of bands in relationship to the world's populous! Now, should there be more? You bet! It should be at 100%! But we should not neglect that "5% or more" and dump them into the same category as everyone else!

S
sermonindex

With all due respect, I see a issue with many Christian popular artists that extends far beyond mere money. I think the lust for money and top ten Christian billboard ratings are but symptoms of a greater underlying disease: false conversion.

My brother Paul... I couldnt agree with your post more. A resounding Amen!!

I completely understand your feeling of let down when attending church. In many cases today's churches pull down the serious believers instead of building them up. It's part of the reason I left the traditional church format for house churches.

Few are those who find it...

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Ben... I agree with you too...

Some may be confused by how I can agree with both Paul and Ben, but I am able to seperate the two things.

Wood is not an idol. But if I take a piece of wood and carve a monkey out of it, tell everone it's the "god of bananas", and everyone worships it so that we can have a bumper crop of bananas this year... thats idolary.

Music, to me, is like wood. It's part of creation. It's there for us to enjoy. It's there for us to use for the glory of God. He wants us to be creative with it because that's the image of Him that He created us to be. But we take it and make an idol of it. We use it in place of God.

It's not the music... it's not the creativity thats wrong. It's us! It's what we make it. Is carving a monkey out of a piece of wood wrong? No! Of course not. But making that monkey more important than God, or treating that monkey as if it were God... thats the sin.

And thats where we get off track with music, and so many other things.

Krispy

B
BenBrockway

Geez Kripsy... you just keep hitting the nail on the head over and over! Great stuff, my friend!

S
sermonindex

Geez Kripsy... you just keep hitting the nail on the head over and over! Great stuff, my friend!

... I gotta print this stuff out, man. LOL

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Not directed to me, Krispy wrote:

By the way, son, I'm only 39. Cut me some slack on the mom and pops thing!! LOL

I'm glad to know your age, Krispy. My son is your age and a worship leader in a large "bubble gum" church. Our disagreement over music is an on-going event, when the subject comes up. Why? Because there is a "learned" [not from me] disdain for the traditional hymn[s] simply because they do not appeal to the young set which the post-modern church is all about. Excuses for sustaining the "new way" come easy when leadership sees numbers as meaning success. "God must be in it because there are so many". But in this it must be seen that the end does not justify the means. The music in conjunction with the "purpose driven", "facilitated" preaching-teaching, is taking its toll. I am not exaggerating when I say there is disdain for the old ways. Using a broad brush approach, if you look carefully you will presently find there is no longer knowledge of the old ways being presented to the churches. Present day leadership is devoid of the understanding of it except to lift and manipulate for its purposes those verses they deem helpful to their cause. There is a booklet posted on SI by the same thread name, "Beyond Pentecost". I strongly suggest everyone read it and then come back to the table.

On to your latest:

Ormly, I apologize for asking you not to post on this particular thread. While I do feel that you're not really understanding most of what I am saying... I think a better way that I could have handled it yesterday would have been to ask you to refrain from casting out comments that appear to be judgmental.

Apology accepted, Krispy, and I might add, you don't need one from me. The fact you ask for one reveals your heart, which I never had questions about. So you haven't disappointed me for which I am thankful to the Lord for His grace IN you. Rectification for both of us should always be invited. In this issue I only wish to share my 30 yrs [more] experience with you and whomever.

Please, let me at the outset say that I am NOT one of those who believes the church is [or to be] comprised of the saved and unsaved. Notwithstanding an alter call, the need to compromise the teaching from the pulpit is unecessary and should be disallowed, allowing the Holy Spirit to act upon the heart of the unsaved who may be present instead of “slick manipulation” or “feel good easyism” for the betterment of church coffers or whatever. I don’t need nor want to hear the same message of salvation everyweek. Nor do I want a message that assumes salvation for everyone in attendance. The reasons should be obvious both to the hungry heart or not so hungry heart.

I wish also to say that judgment begins in the house of the Lord. It begins first with me. However, we must allow judgment to happen in our circle IF it is objective. *Objective judgment deals with the outside manifestations; outside influences, meaning if it sounds bad, looks bad, smells bad, acts bad, --- it's bad and not suitable for the holy place. Guard the doors and don’t let it in. This is not personal except to protect the flock, especially the unlearned within it.. To the “unlearned” person and there are many in leadership these days with good intentions it can be offensive and will be, however, we all know that the road to hell is paved with them, However we must not judge *subjectively unless God gives a specific word to you to speak; a word of discerment.

[Note: I trust I am using the words "obectively" and "subjectively" correctly in what I am trying to say]

To cont....

We shoud all be in a Spiritual condition to hear such a confirming or not-so-confirming, “Spirit bearing witness”, word. Do not tell me, “look at the heart”. I can't judge the heart, that is already under the scrutiny of a higher authority, regardless of my perception. What I can judge, and must, is what affect is being made upon the assembly of those who can be persuaded because they are infants and/or are [hopefully] growing in the Lord. I must judge the [b]result[/b] of the intention, be it a result that persuades [not convicts] the world or is it pleasing to God that He can be blessed. That is our leadership responsibility. If music moves people, which I heartly agree, does, I ask does it also move God? First, it must move the heart [*mine] to worship. If I am in union with Him, my relationship with Him is my “Plumbline”. [Spirit bearing witness]

*Most always, instead of worshipping, I found myself praying for the born again experience to happen for those on the “worship team” that the Holiness of God be revealed to them; in them and as a consequence, from them.

Can it be received by Him in any other way than the heart? Programs and methods aren’t blessable especially when they come from the world. Is it not grievous to Him He can’t receive it because, while the intent and effort to give it may be there, the new birth is missing that brings needed rectification and revelation.


Hosea 4:6 (NASB)
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest.
Since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

In the above verse can be seen a prescribed way. It is knowledge, and in what I speak of is, knowledge by revelation, by the New Birth.

In this, from scripture, we know He will NOT compromise His Holiness. He CAN"T do that. Therefore, there is a prescribed way to approach His throne. “Spirit and Truth” is the way. Nothing, in my estimation, objectively speaking, should ever violate that. Compromise with the world, does. That's scripturual fact, both OT and NT.

Here are some scriptures that come readily to mind and point up the sensitivity of the issue of approsching the Lord:

1 Chron. 16:29 (KJV)
Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before *Him: worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.

* not the congregation.

2 Chron. 20:21 (KJV)
And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the Lord, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the Lord; for His mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 29:2 (KJV)
Give unto the Lord the glory due unto His name; worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.

Psalm 96:9 (KJV)
O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: fear before Him, all the earth.

I repeat, worship is to be about worship, not creativity. It is a time when holy hands are to be lifted up unto the Lord, singing unto Him a new song from a new you that is ever being made new by Him, ----- out from the world.

Speaking of His Church Paul says this:

“Which is his body, the fulness of him that fills all in all”. Ephes. 1:23 (KJV)

Note that Jesus fills all IN all. It does not say [b]with[/b] all or [b]by[/b] all or [b]through[/b] all. He [b]fills all with Himself[/b] that we fill all of us [b]IN[/b] Him. He is [b]THE ALL[/b] and Paul’s wording connotes complete union with the Father, before the world was! Can you see that??!! Present tense!

Anything that inhibits, distracts, or causes attention to be placed upon anything that leads worshippers away from that understanding, is unacceptable. For now, beauty and holiness is THE ALL we can offer our Father. Does He possess us that we possess Him?

Orm

S
sermonindex

Skillet
(You are My Hope)
Times are hard
Times have changed
Don't you say
But I keep holding on to you
It's hard to keep the faith alive day to day
Leaning on the strength I've found in you
You're the hope of all the Earth

You are my hope
You are my strength
You're everything
Everything I need
You are my hope
You are my life
You are my hope
You are my hope

Far beyond what I can see or comprehend
Etching your eternity in me
Nations stream and angels sing, "Jesus reigns"
And every knee bows down
You're the hope of all the Earth

You are my hope
You are my strength
You're everything
Everything I need
You are my hope
You are my life
You are my hope
You are my hope

Carry on and I sing of how
You love and I love you now
All the times that I start to sink
You come and you rescue me
You are my hope
You are my hope

I can almost see God taking a deep sigh while saying, "Oh yeah, hmm, right, [i]liar[/i]". :-(

Ben wrote:

Ok, so yes, you can all sense some frustration here from me.

Why are you frustrated? Can't defend what can't defended?

I am not directing it at any one person or anything. Everyone keeps mentioning some Scripture in their own arguments but neglects to see all the other Scriptures that other bring up.

Bring them up --- IN CONTEXT!

To say that your Scripture is truth and my Scripture is false, is calling God himself a liar, and saying that David was an "inhibitor of worship!"

No -- you are saying that from an "unlearned" position quite obvious to those older in the faith.

Ask more questions instead proclaiming from what can be seen as willful ignorance. No offense, mind you.


8-)

S
sermonindex

I'm glad to know your age, Krispy. My son is your age and a worship leader in a large "bubble gum" church. Our disagreement over music is an on-going event, when the subject comes up. Why? Because there is a "learned" [not from me] disdain for the traditional hymn[s] simply because they do not appeal to the young set which the post-modern church is all about. Excuses for sustaining the "new way" come easy when leadership sees numbers as meaning success. "God must be in it because there are so many". But in this it must be seen that the end does not justify the means. The music in conjunction with the "purpose driven", "facilitated" preaching-teaching, is taking its toll. I am not exaggerating when I say there is disdain for the old ways. Using a broad brush approach, if you look carefully you will presently find there is no longer knowledge of the old ways being presented to the churches. Present day leadership is devoid of the understanding of it except to lift and manipulate for its purposes those verses they deem helpful to their cause. There is a booklet posted on SI by the same thread name, "Beyond Pentecost". I strongly suggest everyone read it and then come back to the table.

Hey... ya know? I agree with you 100%!!

This is what I am talking about. State your position clearly, and we can find some common ground. You're preaching to the choir, brother... I've been saying these very things for a loooooong time on this forum.

Your post finally revealed what you've been trying to say. I find that on a forum like this it is hard to get a point across in the same manner you might with someone your talking face to face with. Face to face I ask probing questions to get the listening to think... but it doesnt work well here. I find that being direct and making your point works best.

Thats what you did in this post, and it was great!

And I agree with you! 100%! You are saying things that I have been saying all along on this forum.

Krispy

T
tpique1


KrispyKrittr wrote:
I agree too...

The issue of the lack of creativity in music seems to be stuck on a worship theme. Why is that?

Thats a legitimate question I'm asking. Am I the only one who simply enjoys music for what it is... does it always have to have regulations and limitations? To me, that stifles creativity as much as money does.

Is there no place in the Church for creative expression? God is a wonderful Creator... and since we are made in His image, wouldnt that suggest that we are created to be creative?

Krispy

Krispy,

This is a relatively modern concept of music in worship — the emphasis that God is concerned with is not what you're bringing to Him in the form of creativity or music, He's concerned with what holds your affection.

Does the music conform you to the world?
("Friendship with the world is enmity (hatred)with God...)

Has it crossed the line of distinction that God has set for His people?
('Come out from among them...) ("Ye are a chosen generation, a peculiar people...)

Does it compromise the Gospel message and exhalt itself?

Does it exhalt man over God by putting the focus on the "star musician" and not on Christ?
("To live is Christ...)

We live in a very compromised society. We are often encouraged to conform to its likeness. The voice of the culture will always be louder than the voice of God, and we have to decide which we will isten to.

Being a Christian is more than just saying Christian things — it isn't a claim, it's a lifestyle. And often times that lifestyle comes at a cost — self-denial, and taking up a cross.

And just as Tozer once said: "You knew one thing about about a man carrying a cross out of the city; you knew he wasn't coming back."

That is the life of a Christian...not loving our own wants, desires, preferences, lives, even unto death (if need be), but total surrender of everything that pulls me away from Christ.

All things extend from the heart, and God knows whether not our heart is His or ours.

S
sermonindex


tpique1 wrote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I agree too...

The issue of the lack of creativity in music seems to be stuck on a worship theme. Why is that?

Thats a legitimate question I'm asking. Am I the only one who simply enjoys music for what it is... does it always have to have regulations and limitations? To me, that stifles creativity as much as money does.

Is there no place in the Church for creative expression? God is a wonderful Creator... and since we are made in His image, wouldnt that suggest that we are created to be creative?

Krispy

Krispy,

This is a relatively modern concept of music in worship — the emphasis that God is concerned with is not what you're bringing to Him in the form of creativity or music, He's concerned with what holds your affection.

Does the music conform you to the world?
("Friendship with the world is enmity (hatred)with God...)

Has it crossed the line of distinction that God has set for His people?
('Come out from among them...) ("Ye are a chosen generation, a peculiar people...)

Does it compromise the Gospel message and exhalt itself?

Does it exhalt man over God by putting the focus on the "star musician" and not on Christ?
("To live is Christ...)

We live in a very compromised society. We are often encouraged to conform to its likeness. The voice of the culture will always be louder than the voice of God, and we have to decide which we will isten to.

Being a Christian is more than just saying Christian things — it isn't a claim, it's a lifestyle. And often times that lifestyle comes at a cost — self-denial, and taking up a cross.

And just as Tozer once said: "You knew one thing about about a man carrying a cross out of the city; you knew he wasn't coming back."

That is the life of a Christian...not loving our own wants, desires, preferences, lives, even unto death (if need be), but total surrender of everything that pulls me away from Christ.

All things extend from the heart, and God knows whether not our heart is His or ours.

Very well thought out, referenced and written, TP.

C
Compton

One more digression from the topic of this thread....


It's Veterans' Day and I wanted to say thank you KrispyK, as well as the other veterans past and current, for your service to this country.

Blessings,

MC

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tpique1...

OI! I agree with every word you said. Try reading everything I've ever posted on here. That's not the point of this thread.

I thought we could all have a dicussion about music and artistic expression and creativity... I guess not.

Either that, or I'm not getting my points across very well. Charles Spurgeon once said "It's possible to be so heavenly minded that we become no earthly good". I think he was right.

Krispy

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It's Veterans' Day and I wanted to say thank you KrispyK, as well as the other veterans past and current, for your service to this country.

You're welcome bro. Anytime.

It's also the birthday of the Marine Corp. Semper Fi to any of my brothers & sisters who are reading this. Hope y'all are still living by the code.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
tpique1...

OI! I agree with every word you said. Try reading everything I've ever posted on here. That's not the point of this thread.

I thought we could all have a dicussion about music and artistic expression and creativity... I guess not.

Either that, or I'm not getting my points across very well. Charles Spurgeon once said "It's possible to be so heavenly minded that we become no earthly good". I think he was right.

Krispy

I believe you can if you don't take it a step too far. In my opinion, creativity is kin to sentimentalism. Sentimentalism will not support intimacy. Intimacy is what this whole thing should be about. If being creative in my music will take me there, I will play it ---- and I do. However, that music is an offering from me and not from anyone else unless what I play enables them to join me. Get my drift? Now when I say most contemporary music played in the church inhibits my worship, you know where I am coming from. What is to become of us who have a deire to worship when the music played is worldly and seeker sensitive?


:-?

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I believe you can if you don't take it a step too far. In my opinion, creativity is kin to sentimentalism. Sentimentalism will not support intimacy. Intimacy is what this whole thing should be about. If being creative in my music will take me there, I will play it ---- and I do. However, that music is an offering from me and not from anyone else unless what I play enables them to join me. Get my drift? Now when I say most contemporary music played in the church inhibits my worship, you know where I am coming from. What is to become of us who have a deire to worship when the music played is worldly and seeker sensitive?

Let me ask you a question for a change... ;-)

Do you believe that it is wrong to create music, or art with the purpose of other people's enjoyment? I do agree that we should do all things as unto the Lord, no problem there. But can an artistic expression bring enjoyment to others AND be done unto the Lord at the same time?

Say I make a painting (I'm not artistic in that manner... just making an example), and I do it so that other people will enjoy it. Can I also do it unto the Lord by making the best possible painting I can, and honoring the Lord for giving me this artistic talent?

What if I write a song about my stunningly beautiful wife? (And she is too! Y'all would be both surprised and jealous...lol) Suppose I write about her beautiful blue eyes, and her soft hair... etc. I'm writing it to please her, and build her up and make her feel loved. Isnt possible for me to write that song for and to her, and at the same time honor God? That song would not necessarily bring us into a worshipful atmosphere. Maybe another kind of atmosphere that I like, but not one where we fall to our knees in worship and praise to God.

See what I'm saying? Isnt it possible to have artistic expression that is both horizontal AND vertical?

See... THIS is what this thread was supposed to be about.

Krispy

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Sure, just don't call it worship. Worship is a step aside [or more] from the honorable thing that takes one into the presence of God. The honorable thing done unto people is just that and no more than, honorable. If done as you say, to please people and they are pleased, expect no more from God. You have received your reward, from people.

Now ask, if your creativity in worship, knowing it is from your heart and done skillfully, doesn't please the people --- what will you do? What should your decision be? :-o

P
PTywama3

Hey Krispy,

Thanks for the reply...

Yeah, you are almost "old enough" to socialize with my parents, but not quite. That was supposed to be a general statement geared for its political science application... that reality is often not quite what it seems. I'm not trying to patronize you. ;-)

I doubt I'll agree with your take on the breadth of the music industry, but I can chalk a great deal of that up to a wholly different background, age, and land-mass separation... the rest probably based on a different respect of "poetry."

I do imagine that a bit of brilliance would be a good thing.

And I, too, wish to thank you for serving this country!


I still find it almost laughable that the man we (as a group) seem to want to bring into this discussion (for worship and otherwise) was a man who was often as not willing to let his emotions lead him (noticing a difference between the word "lead" and "control"). Yet here we are...

Ormly... It works both ways, sir. Wisdom is an impressive thing when wrought in youth, be it the youth within an older leadership (subjective), or the youth of men. Ignorance of it for the sake of preserving culture or personal value is about the darkest poison one can drink... for it our Lord was crucified. He, too, was not an old man, then.

The Welsh revival which did not stop in Wales in 1905 was evidenced by the wisdom of one young man... who told his pastor after a few mere months at school that he wished to address the congregation. Courage, assurance, and fortified knowledge with the understanding to use it... can be a wondrous thing. Blessed was it to be contagious then.

And you have already once agreed with me, meaning we can't be all wrong (to say the least).


And Compton... I don't quite get the correlation of your reply to my last post! You seemed to take a wide political swath at a loose political relation. ;-) I think my goal with that statement is that God is ever vigilant, and even as the world tries to root Him from one place, He'll find a good way to make it darn hard to be ignored in a more prevalent fashion somewhere else. Right now, to me it seems to be music. People believe in Him, and they're making it known they do (mostly those ones that Krispy has written he'd rather listen to than the CCM people because you know they're in it for the money, stardom, or something of that nature.) Some of 'em really do just wanna sing, Krispy.

C
Compton

And Compton... I don't quite get the correlation of your reply to my last post

You say that like I actually might have had some correlation in mind! ;-) :-P

Seriously, you are right to say I was taking a broad look there...I was expanding from the subject of music to observe that we've been converted by the world in almost every area of church. In this broad context I see no difference between music, politics or money or whatever...we could talk about all these things interchangably. It used to be that backsliders stayed away from churches...now we have mega-churches that are entire warehouses for backsliders and their secular motivational sermons, bumper bands, and gourmet coffee.

If it's in the world we want it in church.

That's all! I wasn't actually disagreeing or agreeing with any point... just jumping in!

MC

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:

I can almost see God taking a deep sigh while saying, "Oh yeah, hmm, right, [i]liar[/i]". :-(


Why are you frustrated? Can't defend what can't defended?

I am not directing it at any one person or anything. Everyone keeps mentioning some Scripture in their own arguments but neglects to see all the other Scriptures that other bring up.

Bring them up --- IN CONTEXT!

To say that your Scripture is truth and my Scripture is false, is calling God himself a liar, and saying that David was an "inhibitor of worship!"

No -- you are saying that from an "unlearned" position quite obvious to those older in the faith.

Ask more questions instead proclaiming from what can be seen as willful ignorance. No offense, mind you.


8-)

Ormly,

The points you keep bringing up are good, and well, challenging points, but I must come back to the Scriptures, as well. If you look all throughout Scripture, you will see creativity in worship and song. David wrote from his creative heart. He wasn't singing someone else's song. He was singing his own. Doesn't that imply creativity in worship? He created the song. He was the artist. I would clasify that as creative. After all, his songs are heartfelt and justly bring glory to our magnificant God.

I was frustrated that you often vear (sp?) off the subject and argue over some minor detail to the conversation, rather then to the topic at hand. I can defend my position, because I know what the Scriptures say.

You say that I am unlearned and that you know more then I. Well, you know what, you may be right that you have some wisdom from your years in Christ, but then again, I must reflect upon David, a man after God's own heart, and he started writing his songs when he was just a kid. I will put my stakes in a creative kid that was after God's own heart and God was delighted with his creative worship and song. I will also take from David a truth that God most certianly wanted for us 3000 + years later, "Psalm 149: 1 Praise the LORD. Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints." To me, this implies creativity! You did bring up some relevant Scriptures in some of your other posts about how we should worship, but that is what is so awesome about the creativity of God's people in Scripture... they all had very creative ways in worshiping God, and "He delights in the praises of his people!"

I do not deny the Scriptures you mentioned. They are relevant and truth. What I don't understand is why you can't see the relevancy of other Scriptures that are truth from the same Bible?

P.S. Since David was a worshipper, I believe I am bringing up Psalms in the correct context of worship and singing by voice, intrument and dancing!

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The points you keep bringing up are good, and well, challenging points, but I must come back to the Scriptures, as well.....you will see creativity in worship and song. David wrote from his creative heart. He wasn't singing someone else's song. He was singing his own. Doesn't that imply creativity in worship?


No, it doesn't. However, it does point up his spontaneity in expressing his heart. Now if can you cite one scripture that points up his creativity where he pre-wrote music for others to sing, you might persuade me?

You see, there is difference between singing to what David wrote as it applies to his heart than from the position of hoping that what he wrote will persuade God or be pleasing to Him because we sing it --- without his heart. We can't hide behind what David or anyone else writes --- as we might suppose, to be written for God, in our behalf.

:-D

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:
The points you keep bringing up are good, and well, challenging points, but I must come back to the Scriptures, as well.....you will see creativity in worship and song. David wrote from his creative heart. He wasn't singing someone else's song. He was singing his own. Doesn't that imply creativity in worship?

No, it doesn't. However, it does point up his spontaneity in expressing his heart. Now if can you cite one scripture that points up his creativity where he pre-wrote music for others to sing, you might persuade me?

You see, there is difference between singing to what David wrote as it applies to his heart than from the position of hoping that what he wrote will persuade God or be pleasing to Him because we sing it --- without his heart. We can't hide behind what David or anyone else writes --- as we might suppose, to be written for God, in our behalf.

:-D

Exactly, the point! Which is why what David wrote about writing a new song legitimate... and also my point about me, for example, writing a song from my heart that legitamently glorifies God. It's called creativity! Are you saying that spontaneity isn't a form of the creative process? If I was living my life doing only 1 thing and out of spontaneity I chose to do something different - that is also creativity, because it is stepping out of my comfort zone and doing something out of the norm (which requires a form of creativity). You can't deny that!

B
BenBrockway

I just got this email from Charles Stanley

November 13, 2006

Made for Praise

Psalm 34:1

Something is happening in the church today. Something is sweeping through our congregations, stirring worshipers to glorify God in unexpected ways. Something many services around the world had all but eradicated is returning to church in force. That something, surprisingly, is praise.

For a long time, churches were so focused on evangelism and accurate Bible teaching that, somewhere along the way, the art of praise was given less room for expression. In fact, some people today never missed praise, because they had never truly been exposed to it. But the “new” worship that we see exploding around the world today is not really new at all. It is the sound of praise returning to the church.

God’s people were made for praise. Embedded in our spirits, praise is something we cannot escape or ignore. The apostle Peter says, “You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9, emphasis added). How beautiful it is to know that we are God’s own people, created, chosen, and called by Him so that we may “proclaim . . . [His] excellencies.” In other words, our main responsibility is a life of praise to our heavenly Father.

Does your worship reflect genuine adoration and praise for God? Does your heart sing as you lift your hands to heaven, giving glory to the Lord? He is worthy of our praise. Give it to Him today.


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Exactly, the point! Which is why what David wrote about writing a new song legitimate


For him, yes, but not for you? --- you aren't David.

... and also my point about me, for example, writing a song from my heart that legitamently glorifies God. It's called creativity! Are you saying that spontaneity isn't a form of the creative process?

Right! What you spontan-ise over is for you. Don't ask me to accept it....especially if it sounds bad.

If I was living my life doing only 1 thing and out of spontaneity I chose to do something different - that is also creativity, because it is stepping out of my comfort zone and doing something out of the norm (which requires a form of creativity). You can't deny that!

Create away... just don't call it, "of God".

:-(

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Ormly... are you suggesting that only David was allowed to sing a new song unto the Lord? I hope I'm reading that wrong. The way I interpret that, that is a human response to the glory of God. It would seem to me that when any of us experience salvation, and begin to live for God... the response is praise and adoration. Thus, a new song. To say that it only applies to David is, to me anyway, a gross misinterpretation of scripture.

Can you clarify what you meant?

Also.... you said:

Sure, just don't call it worship.

Well, that was kinda my point. It's not worship. Exactly.

By the way, true worship is not about music anyway. It's about seperating ourselves unto God and living in obedience to Him. That is true worship. We are to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There are many things that can spin off of that, which i do not have time to get into. But the core of worship is obedience.

If we're not obedient everyday, all day long... we're wasting our time on Sunday. Like Keith Green sang:

[i]To obey is better than sacrifice.
I want more than Sunday and Wednesday nights,
Cause if you can't come to Me every day,
Then don't bother coming at all.[/i]

Krispy

B
BenBrockway



KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ormly... are you suggesting that only David was allowed to sing a new song unto the Lord? I hope I'm reading that wrong. The way I interpret that, that is a human response to the glory of God. It would seem to me that when any of us experience salvation, and begin to live for God... the response is praise and adoration. Thus, a new song. To say that it only applies to David is, to me anyway, a gross misinterpretation of scripture.

Can you clarify what you meant?

Also.... you said:

Sure, just don't call it worship.

Well, that was kinda my point. It's not worship. Exactly.

By the way, true worship is not about music anyway. It's about seperating ourselves unto God and living in obedience to Him. That is true worship. We are to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There are many things that can spin off of that, which i do not have time to get into. But the core of worship is obedience.

If we're not obedient everyday, all day long... we're wasting our time on Sunday. Like Keith Green sang:

[i]To obey is better than sacrifice.
I want more than Sunday and Wednesday nights,
Cause if you can't come to Me every day,
Then don't bother coming at all.[/i]

Krispy

Amen, again Krispy!!!!

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ormly... are you suggesting that only David was allowed to sing a new song unto the Lord? I hope I'm reading that wrong.

Words mean something. So why would you suppose I even suggested what you think I said from what I wrote?

The way I interpret that, that is a human response to the glory of God. It would seem to me that when any of us experience salvation, and begin to live for God... the response is praise and adoration.

Maybe --- is it? It only is, if it is. For David, it was. Your words [or tune] may never necessarily be my words. My words may be different than yours. If I am moved by yours, fine. Just don't sing it 20 times in a service or until I get the message YOU think I need to understand and call it all creative. Get my drift?
David had a testimony to support what he wrote and sung.

Thus, a new song. To say that it only applies to David is, to me anyway, a gross misinterpretation of scripture.

If you can join him from a heart as his, as I have so often done, that's good.

Can you clarify what you meant?

I hope I just did.



Also.... you said:

Sure, just don't call it worship.

Well, that was kinda my point. It's not worship. Exactly.

But it should always be when in the congregation --- and even personal private times, as well.

By the way, true worship is not about music anyway. It's about seperating ourselves unto God and living in obedience to Him. That is true worship. We are to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There are many things that can spin off of that, which i do not have time to get into. But the core of worship is obedience.

Words to live by, for sure.

If we're not obedient everyday, all day long... we're wasting our time on Sunday. Like Keith Green sang:

[i]To obey is better than sacrifice.
I want more than Sunday and Wednesday nights,
Cause if you can't come to Me every day,
Then don't bother coming at all.[/i]

Krispy

:-D

{/quote]

Wonderful! Who is Keith Green? :-?

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:


Create away... just don't call it, "of God".


So what your saying is that everything that you or I, or anyone else does is not of God? A godly man or woman that creates a business, or the one that writes a book, or the one that paints a picture, carves wood, or builds a church structure is not of God??? Is this what you are saying?????

:-(

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:

If we're not obedient everyday, all day long... we're wasting our time on Sunday. Like Keith Green sang:

[i]To obey is better than sacrifice.
I want more than Sunday and Wednesday nights,
Cause if you can't come to Me every day,
Then don't bother coming at all.[/i]

Krispy

:-D

{/quote]

Wonderful! Who is Keith Green? :-?

Keith Green is one for which you have placed in the category as "Not of God!"

R
roadsign

Create away... just don't call it, "of God".

Just sneaking in here with some questions for whomever - questions I’m wondering about myself:

The terms “creative” and “of God” mean many different things. How would you establish what is “creative” or “of God”? How do you decide what is NOT “creative?”, What is NOT “of God?”

There is another issue that comes to mind: What to do with the creative expressions of others - that may be valid, but not presentable?

Example:

I once taught a child in Sunday School who would draw nice pictures and then paint them all black. He was expressing the turmoil of his heart (domestic troubles). It was HIS world, and he was crying out through his art. I had to accept that, and acknowledge it. But I did not display any of it on the bulletin board. I felt it was unloving to expose him that way.

Whouldn't it be like that with music? You have to accept someone's work as valid for him, but then excercise discrimination re public presentation. That takes discernment.

Diane

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:

Maybe --- is it? It only is, if it is. For David, it was. Your words [or tune] may never necessarily be my words. My words may be different than yours. If I am moved by yours, fine. Just don't sing it 20 times in a service or until I get the message YOU think I need to understand and call it all creative. Get my drift?
David had a testimony to support what he wrote and sung.

Thus, a new song. To say that it only applies to David is, to me anyway, a gross misinterpretation of scripture.

If you can join him from a heart as his, as I have so often done, that's good.

WHAT? Ormly, you are jumping back and forth. You say things like, "Worship cannot be creative," "Those were David's words,"and "You can't sing David's words," and yet you then say, "If you can join him from a heart as his, as I have so often done, that's good." Huh???? So we can't sing David's songs, because only to him they were worship, but you can sing his songs and have it worship? And we don't know his heart, but you do? Wow!! Putting yourself on a pedestal aren't you?

Your words [or tune] may never necessarily be my words. My words may be different than yours. If I am moved by yours, fine.

Wait...what? So we can't be creative according to most of your posts, but now in this post we can? Saying "YOUR words [or tune] implies creativity, to which you also said, " If I am moved by yours, fine."

Ok, so let me get this straight. You can't be creative, but you can. You can't write songs to the Lord, but you can. You can't worship by your feet, mouth or hands, because it's not of God, but you can. And even though songs were repeated all throughout Scripture, and there were musicians all throughout Scripture leading people in new and old songs, we can't do that? So, I guess the Scripture, "God is the same yesterday, today and forever," doesn't apply? He can be delighted by his worshippers back then, but He isn't allowed to be delighted by His worshippers today?

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Words mean something. So why would you suppose I even suggested what you think I said from what I wrote?

Dude... thats why I asked for clarification instead of roasting you on the spot!

Krispy

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Wonderful! Who is Keith Green?

You wouldnt like him... he had long bushy hair and wrote Christian rock. 8-)

http://www.lastdaysministries.org/ will tell you all about him.

Krispy

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Oh... I forgot to mention... Keith was very... uhmm... how should I say this? ... ok, I'll just spit it out... Keith Green was very creative!

There, I said it!

Krispy :-P

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roadsign wrote:
Create away... just don't call it, "of God".

Just sneaking in here with some questions for whomever - questions I’m wondering about myself:

The terms “creative” and “of God” mean many different things. How would you establish what is “creative” or “of God”? How do you decide what is NOT “creative?”, What is NOT “of God?”

There is another issue that comes to mind: What to do with the creative expressions of others - that may be valid, but not presentable?

Example:

I once taught a child in Sunday School who would draw nice pictures and then paint them all black. He was expressing the turmoil of his heart (domestic troubles). It was HIS world, and he was crying out through his art. I had to accept that, and acknowledge it. But I did not display any of it on the bulletin board. I felt it was unloving to expose him that way.

Whouldn't it be like that with music? You have to accept someone's work as valid for him, but then excercise discrimination re public presentation. That takes discernment.

Diane

Very simple, Diane. If it moves me to worship. Of course I do recognise I have a responsibilty to come prepared to worship. Assuming I have come prepared AND I DO COME PREPARED, what is presented me ALL TOO OFTEN doesn't take me there; doesn't take into His presence. It has NEVER taken me there. So, the only thing left for me is to ENJOY what I hear coming from a "worship team" that stinks of the Rolling Stones or some other bunch of hip-hop rock, on the road, "we need a PR man", gig dreaming guitar thumpers. Assuming my preparedness, what must I assume is happening except what is presented me is of the flesh IF I CAN"T, as in INHIBITED, enter in! Notwithstanding my outburst, Get my drift?

This remark is not meant for you, Diane.

;-)

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Wonderful! Who is Keith Green?

You wouldnt like him... he had long bushy hair and wrote Christian rock. 8-)

http://www.lastdaysministries.org/ will tell you all about him.

Krispy

Yer right, I wouldn't. Don't invite me.


FWIW: You are never going to roast me on this subject....and survive the attempt.

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Yer right, I wouldn't.

Hmm... thats not too judgemental. :-)

There are audio's of some of Keith's teachings on this site. Try to avoid them. ... lol

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Yer right, I wouldn't.

Hmm... thats not too judgemental. :-)

There are audio's of some of Keith's teachings on this site. Try to avoid them. ... lol

Krispy

Wouldn't think of it.... 8-)

You have to remember two things. #1. I grew up in this before you were born. #2. I come from a very musical family and know from what I speak when I say music moves the soul. With that in mind, if it is of God it will last. That's been proven. So much for what hasn't lasted and Keith Green.

:-D

B
BenBrockway


Ormly wrote:
So much for what hasn't lasted and Keith Green.

:-D

I thought I would bring this to your attention:

As soon as Keith opened his heart to Jesus, he and Melody opened their home. Anyone with a need, or who wanted to kick drugs, or get off the street, was welcome. Of course, they always heard plently about Jesus.

Not only did Keith's life take a radical turn, but as an accomplished musician and songwriter, so did his music. His quest for stardom ended. His songs now reflected the absolute thrill of finding Jesus and seeing his own life radically changed. Keith's spiritual intensity not only took him beyond most people's comfort zones, but it constantly drove him even beyond himself.

Somewhat reluctantly, Keith was thrust into a "John the Baptist" type ministry—calling believers to wake up, repent, and live a life that looked like what they said they believed. Keith felt he would have met Jesus sooner if not for Christians who led double lives. He made audiences squirm by saying, “If you praise and worship Jesus with your mouth and your life does not praise and worship him, there's something wrong!"

The radical commitment Keith preached was also a desire of his own heart. He said, “Loving Him is to be our cause. He can take care of a lot of other causes without us, but He can’t make us love Him with all our heart. That’s the work we must do... Anything else is an imitation.”

Keith's songs were often birthed during his own spiritual struggles. He pointed the finger at himself, penning honest and vulnerable lyrics—but he left room for God to convict the rest of us too. He knew the journey to heaven often winds through muddy valleys, and saw no value in portraying things as otherwise.

With Keith's honesty, he would have chafed against a glossed-over reading of his own life. After all, Keith was in the spotlight as he grew in Jesus. He made mistakes. We miss something essential when we overlook the frailty and humanity of those who've gone before us. Keith was far from perfect, but he honestly hungered after righteousness—constantly asking the Holy Spirit to, "change my heart, convict me of my sin." And when he was convicted, he took action. If he needed to repent, he repented. If he needed to phone someone to ask forgiveness, he did.

For Keith, meeting Jesus was one thing. Becoming more like Him was another. After striving for years to measure up to God's holiness, at times questioning his own salvation, Keith came into a deeper understanding of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross—both to forgive his sins, and to clothe him in His own righteousness. It wasn't that Keith became less concerned with purity and holiness. But he was now motivated more by love and less by fear in His pursuit of Jesus.

While on earth, Keith struggled with the same things we do—discipline, deadlines, problems crying for attention. He had music to write and a growing family. And he was also discipling the 70 believers who had come to be part of Last Days Ministries—the ministry he and Melody expanded from the outreach that began in their home. But he learned, in the midst of it all, the importance of pausing simply to behold the glory of God and to enjoy His presence. That is perhaps, more than anything, the legacy Keith would have wanted us to remember.

In seven short years of knowing Jesus, the Lord took Keith from concert crowds of 20 or less—to stadiums of 12,000 people who came to hear only him. His recordings were chart topping—and when he began to give his recordings away for whatever people could afford, some misunderstood. His views were often controversial but never boring. Television and radio appearances became the norm. Still, Keith's heart was to please the Lord and build His kingdom, not his own.

And in the last few months of his life, the Lord turned Keith's heart once again toward the lost. He wanted to go back out into the streets, the prisons, and the nations to reach those without God. He wanted to sing to them. He wanted to tell them how much Jesus loved them. However, it was not to be.

On July 28, 1982, there was a small plane crash and Keith went home to be with Jesus. The crash also took the life of his three year old son Josiah, and his two year old daughter, Bethany. Melody was home with their one year old, Rebekah, and was also six weeks pregnant with their fourth child, Rachel. Keith was only 28 years old.

Although Keith is now with Jesus, his life and ministry is still making a huge impact around the world. His songs and passionate delivery are still changing lives. His writings are translated into many languages. Keith once said, "When I die I just want to be remembered as a Christian." It's safe to say he reached his goal, and perhaps, a bit more.

Keith Green was simply a man of conviction. When his convictions led him to an eternally worthy object in the person of Jesus he sold all that he had—ambitions, possessions, and dreams—to possess His love. In so doing he became a man of devotion. He also became a man remembered, and still missed, by millions around the world.

The only music minister to whom the Lord will say, "Well done, thy good and faithful servant," is the one whose life proves what their lyrics are saying, and to whom music is the least important part of their life. Glorifying the only worthy One has to be a minister's most important goal! — Keith Green

S
sermonindex

So much for what hasn't lasted and Keith Green.

What do you mean by that?

Krispy

B
BenBrockway

I repent of ever having recorded one single song, and ever having performed one concert, if my music, and more importantly, my life has not provoked you into Godly jealousy or to sell out more completely to Jesus! — Keith Green

A Godly man, with a creative mind. Someone who truly walked the walk!

:-D

S
sermonindex

I grew up in this before you were born

The pope is older than me, too... that doesnt make him an expert on the Bible.

Krispy

B
BenBrockway

Can God Use Rock Music?
Keith Green

Introduction
This is a hard article for me to write, mainly because I'm afraid people will think that my opinions would have to be prejudiced by the fact that I am involved in (what has come to be known as) "contemporary Christian music." As you might guess, the title of this article is no new question to me. Since I myself have been somewhat "guilty" of using the medium of rock, I have heard just about every opinion about it - and have received no limit of warning, exhortation, and outright rebuke from many a well-meaning soul. Since I take my negative mail very seriously - always reading each negative and corrective letter as a possible word or warning from God - I have had to listen closely to each argument - praying and thinking the whole thing through with eternal values in mind.

Although I have always wanted to address this subject publicly, I have only just answered the questions privately, seeking to avoid controversy. But now I believe the time has come for me to openly tackle this question, mainly because the Lord has been teaching me so much lately about motives and how they are the bottom line in just about everything!

Please realize that these are just my opinions, I am certainly no authority on scriptural truth - or music (except maybe my own). These are just some of the answers I have come up with after many years of studying this question with fear and trembling before the Lord. But like everything else, you should seek the Lord on your own for answers to difficult questions. I only hope to give you some things to think about.

The Prevailing Opinions
There seem to be two different and widely opposite schools of thought concerning whether or not God can use something as questionable as rock and roll as a tool for evangelism, or even (forgive me!) in worship.

One line of reasoning believes that rock and roll, whether secular or "so-called gospel," should not ever be listened to, or used as a medium by Christians. The reason given is simply that it is "of the devil." There are many statistics and "proofs" used by adherents to this position to prove that rock music itself is the direct cause of everything from drug abuse to teen-age pregnancy. And most people who hold this view are sincerely convinced that anyone who indulges in the use of rock music in any form cannot truly be used or blessed by God.

The other school of thought is the one that believes that God can redeem and use anything - and just because rock music is so prevalent in the world doesn't mean that God's people can't use the same medium to reach those still lost in that world. After all (the people who defend this position say), "Christians are supposed to be "in the world, and not of it!"1 and didn't Paul say that he "became all things to all men that he might save some?"2

The View From Here
Of course, I have always leaned toward the second school of thought, but I think that sometimes this group has taken things a little too far, doing a lot in the name of "freedom" that I believe is grievous to the Lord, because it tends to stumble a lot of little ones. We should not forget that Paul also said, "Do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh."3

It is because of these abuses of freedom that I have chosen to remain silent on this issue. I have not taken up my pen to defend the "Christian rockers" because frankly, I have been just as much offended by most of what I've heard and seen as any sweet ole Christian grandma who accidentally stumbles into a blaring-loud gospel concert.

It isn't the beat that offends me, nor the volume - It's the spirit. It's the "Look at me!" attitude I have seen in concert after concert, and the "Can't you see we're as good as the world?" syndrome I have heard on record after record. Jesus doesn't want us to be as good as the world, He wants us to be better! And that doesn't mean excelling them in sound, style, or talent - it means surpassing them in value - in our motives for being up there on stage, in our reasons for singing our songs, and especially in who we're singing for! If there's anything wrong or worldly at all about so-called "Christian rock," it's the self-exalting spirit and attitude that comes across so loud and clear in many of the records and concerts today.

(Please don't get me wrong. I do not want to appear self-righteous, or to be saying - "All those musicians and artists should have such exemplary attitudes and motives as I do!" Believe me, I have struggled over these same things myself for many years, and these are things that the Lord has taught me for my own life and public ministry.)

But What About All Those "Jungle-Rhythm" Stories?
You've probably heard one of those stories about the missionary family that was stationed near a tribe of cannibalistic, voodoo warriors? Well, as the story goes, the missionary had a couple of teen-agers who just loved to listen to "Christian rock." And one day, as they were playing one of their albums up real loud, a witch doctor came running out of the jungle and said, "Why are you trying to call up devils with that music? Don't you realize that those are the same rhythms we use to contact demons in our rituals?" I've heard this story many times, and in many different forms, but it always seems to prove that, "There you have it! Rock and roll is a product of hell - even if it is called "gospel rock!"

Now, I've always joked to myself that this story must have been started by some craggy old missionary who'd been out on the field for 20 years - and when he arrived back in the states, he just about died when he heard the latest gospel music. (Either that, or the witch doctor who came out of the jungle was a recent graduate from a conservative seminary!)

But seriously, I highly doubt that this story is true - and even if it is, it doesn't mean that all "music with a beat" will make your family need an exorcist. What we need to look into now is this question: Is there such a thing as "evil music"? To that question, I would have to answer a definite, "Yes!" but my reasons for calling some music "evil" may surprise you.

What Is Evil Music?
"I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything is unclean, to him it is unclean."4

I do not believe that any kind of music is "evil" in itself. I mean, that there are no such things as rhythms or chord structures or melody lines that were born in hell. The idea that the devil has invented certain styles of music so that he could capture the innocent young souls of today's youth is not only without foundation, but is the same kind of ridiculous tale that was told to young people by the church as recently as a generation ago - that "masturbation could cause blindness." Why try to scare the poor little guys into doing what's right? Why not deal with the real problem - selfishness!

The suggestion that there is such a thing as intrinsically5 "good music or evil music" seems preposterous to me. I have been involved with almost every aspect of music my whole life, and I have witnessed the various effects it has had on me and other people - and I have to say that I have never once seen a case where music was the direct cause of sin or wickedness in a person's life.

On the other hand, I have seen music be used as a tool for selfishness and egotism in people's lives (as well as my own). I have also seen it be used to create sensual moods by people with lust and manipulation on their minds. I have seen rock groups that were admittedly worshippers of Satan, and were open practioners of black witchcraft, who employed music as a tool to mesmerize their audiences. Yes, I must admit that it would appear to the casual observer that anyone involved with rock music could at least be charged with "guilt by association."

But all the examples I mentioned above have to do with the motives of the heart, not the music itself! That is why I believe that music, in itself, is a neutral force. Let me give you a better example.

Take a knife for instance. With it, you can cut bread, carve a roast, loose someone who's been bound by ropes, or you can do harm and even kill somebody. In other words, you can be creative and productive, or you can be destructive and murderous. The knife itself, when put in an atmosphere of hoodlums, becomes a weapon. But put it in a kitchen, and it becomes a tool that's useful, even necessary, for the preparation of nourishment for your family.

As another example, let's look at "David's dancing." The Bible says that King David was "dancing before the Lord with all his might!"6 But today, people dance in bars and discos, and then afterwards, many indulge in alcohol, drugs, and illicit sex. Does that mean that dancing produces a desire for drugs, sex, and alcohol? You and I both know that yes, movement of the body can excite someone. But someone has to have wicked desires to start with to have any outer stimulation increase those desires. I have seen Christians "dancing in the Spirit." I have also seen Christians dancing in the flesh. It wasn't the dancing that was evil, or the music they danced to, but the attitude and motive of their heart.

Should Mexicans Learn English?
Now, we don't make the people of Mexico learn English before we preach the Gospel to them, do we? The only reason that I have ever used contemporary music at all in my ministry is because I believe it is the "language" of the young people. After I have received piles of letters saying things like, "I never would have listened to what you had to say, unless I had first been attracted to the music!" - I am convinced that the only way to reach those who love music is in their own language!

Have you ever heard the stories of how John and Charles Wesley took many of the popular "drinking songs" of their day and put Christian lyrics to them? And it didn't matter how much success they had in reaching sinners using these tunes - most of the people in the church absolutely deplored their methods!

And then the Salvation Army came along, and had the nerve to put hymns to marching music - and then proceeded to play and sing these "lewd songs" (as the traditional church of their day called them) out in the streets on Sundays! They even followed in the Wesley brothers' footsteps, taking tunes from the drunk-filled taverns, and "converting" them into worshipful choruses, or ringing appeals for people to surrender their lives to Christ! And never have there been so many "common people" converted in England than through the unorthodox efforts of those early "Salvation Soldiers."

Oh, how harmless those melodies would sound now to our grandparents' ears. But their grandparents thought that the devil himself was on the loose with music-demons!

There are those today who still believe that we should use only nice, "wholesome" music to reach young people. Otherwise, (they say) we are only appealing to their sinful rebellion, and we will later find that any conversions resulting from the use of rock music were not really authentic after all. One well-known evangelist recently went so far as to say that, "No one has ever gotten a blessing from contemporary Christian music!"

This kind of reasoning is as narrow as that of the early missionaries to China. They thought that the best way to "Christianize" the people would be to teach them their European standards of dress and living, and thus "civilize" the heathen - as well as convert them. But a young and zealous missionary by the name of Hudson Taylor changed all that - he knew that the only way to reach people was with the truth of the Gospel. And he knew that it was wrong to add any cultural or "outward" conformity to the precepts of truth he so earnestly believed. And so he discarded his European clothing, and began to identify with the people he was trying to reach by dressing like them and adopting their customs. Although he was initially ridiculed and shunned by his fellow missionaries, his ultimate success proved that God was indeed leading him.7

Placing People Under the "Law"
It seems that Paul had these same "cultural" problems in the early Church, with those Jewish believers who wanted new converts to first embrace the Jewish law and customs before they could be considered Christians.8 I believe that trying to change people's musical tastes, before we allow them to hear the truth, is just as wrong as it was for the Jews to try to push circumcision on the Gentiles as a necessary prerequisite for eternal life. The Bible is clear that we should put no stumbling blocks in the way of people receiving God's precious gift of salvation!

Conclusion: It's All In the Motives!
I am convinced that the potential of reaching people for Jesus through the media - whether it be records, radio, movies, or television - is monumental, simply because these are the things that have, and continue to hold, people's attention. I truly believe that Christians who are completely sold out to God, using these tools, can bring people to their knees in repentance and lead them into the waiting arms of the Savior. But if their lives are not sold out - if their motives are mixed, and their hearts divided - then I only see ridicule and shame brought to the Gospel. And since this is the case so much of the time, it makes it hard and shines a bad light - even on those whose hearts are clean, and whose motives are pure.

I also want to say in closing that yes, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is grieved by a lot of what is being passed today as "music ministry" and "gospel music" - not so much by the beat or content, but by the lack of commitment and anointing. But just because people with darkened hearts still use rock music as a medium for rebellion and self-exaltation, doesn't mean that the same style of music can't be used by people submitted to God to capture the attention of sinners; and lead them away from self - and to the throne of Christ!

After all, don't many cults use the same Bible that we cherish as God's Holy Word, and yet distort and twist the meaning "to their own destruction"?9 And didn't the devil himself quote Scripture to Jesus? As you can see, a wicked heart can pervert even the most holy and beautiful of things. And in the same way, God can take even the filthiest of vessels and use it for His glory.10 (Just look at you and me!) Believe me, if your heart is right, then your music will be right too. But if your heart is full of selfishness and pride, then even if you sing the sweetest hymn, your song will work death and not life. For...

"A good man, out of the good treasure of his heart, brings forth what is good, and an evil man, out of the evil treasure, brings forth what is evil, for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."11

Footnotes:
1) John 17:11, 15-16.
2) I Corintians 9:22
3) Galatians 5:13
4) Romans 14:14
5) Good or evil in itself
6) II Samuel 6:14
7) Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secret, by Dr. and Mrs. Howard Taylor; Moody Press, Chicago, IL 60610.
8) Galatians 5:1-1

Well put Keith, well put!

S
sermonindex

Uhg... Ben... just post the link! If people wanna read it, they'll link over to it...

Krispy

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:
I grew up in this before you were born

The pope is older than me, too... that doesnt make him an expert on the Bible.

Krispy

cha-ching!

B
BenBrockway

lol... well, I was trying to make it easy! It's a superb read. Long, but superb!

S
sermonindex


KrispyKrittr wrote:
I grew up in this before you were born

The pope is older than me, too... that doesnt make him an expert on the Bible.

Krispy

Doesn't make anyone an expert on anything. However, and by God's grace, I can make distinctions BETTER then you can. Now you really don't want to tell me my life was lived in vain, correct?

;-)

S
sermonindex

Now you really don't want to tell me my life was lived in vain, correct?

Nope, wouldnt say cuz I dont believe it to be the case.

I would still like to know what you meant by this statement:

So much for what hasn't lasted and Keith Green

Please clarify that...

Krispy

S
sermonindex


KrispyKrittr wrote:
Now you really don't want to tell me my life was lived in vain, correct?

Nope, wouldnt say cuz I dont believe it to be the case.

I would still like to know what you meant by this statement:

So much for what hasn't lasted and Keith Green

Please clarify that...

Krispy

What hasn't lasted won't be remembered and isn't. Keith Green? Never heard of him. Those that have no doubt have another to cling to since his passing [if he indeed has, I don't know]. Tell me, did he write any music worth remembering by worshippers? I ask because I really don't know.
No doubt, if he did, only a particular crowd would speak of it. However, what about the rest of the crowd? Did they or couldn't they receive from what he wrote? Why or why not? And as a result is that music worth remembering? --- worship music, that is?

;-)

B
BenBrockway

ORMLY,


BenBrockway wrote:
I repent of ever having recorded one single song, and ever having performed one concert, if my music, and more importantly, my life has not provoked you into Godly jealousy or to sell out more completely to Jesus! — Keith Green

:-D

S
sermonindex

What hasn't lasted won't be remembered and isn't. Keith Green? Never heard of him. Those that have no doubt have another to cling to since his passing [if he indeed has, I don't know]. Tell me, did he write any music worth remembering by worshippers? I ask because I really don't know.

Wow... you need to get out more. Yea, Keith died at the age of 28 in 1983. His music is very much remembered today... I would dare say that out of the last 3 decades Keith's music is the most remembered and cherished of anyone.

Just because you've never heard of him doesnt mean he's been forgotten. You should learn more about him. I was saved shortly after reading a biography about him... which is still very much in print. It's called No Compromise. There is also an hour long DVD out about his life as well.

You need to be careful because you're judging someone who you admittingly have never heard of. Thats not at all biblical. I think if you take the time to find out who Keith was, you'll realize that it's foolish as well. Thats not an insult, it's truth.

How God used Keith Green is an inspiration to millions of people. Because of his message of the final two years of his life, thousands of people are serving God in the mission fields today.

Thats a fact.

Krispy

S
sermonindex


BenBrockway wrote:
ORMLY,


BenBrockway wrote:
I repent of ever having recorded one single song, and ever having performed one concert, if my music, and more importantly, my life has not provoked you into Godly jealousy or to sell out more completely to Jesus! — Keith Green

:-D

Yeah? And? :-? Sounds like a nice guy.... still never heard of him.

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:
What hasn't lasted won't be remembered and isn't. Keith Green? Never heard of him. Those that have no doubt have another to cling to since his passing [if he indeed has, I don't know]. Tell me, did he write any music worth remembering by worshippers? I ask because I really don't know.

Wow... you need to get out more. Yea, Keith died at the age of 28 in 1983. His music is very much remembered today... I would dare say that out of the last 3 decades Keith's music is the most remembered and cherished of anyone.

Just because you've never heard of him doesnt mean he's been forgotten. You should learn more about him. I was saved shortly after reading a biography about him... which is still very much in print. It's called No Compromise. There is also an hour long DVD out about his life as well.

You need to be careful because you're judging someone who you admittingly have never heard of. Thats not at all biblical. I think if you take the time to find out who Keith was, you'll realize that it's foolish as well. Thats not an insult, it's truth.

How God used Keith Green is an inspiration to millions of people. Because of his message of the final two years of his life, thousands of people are serving God in the mission fields today.

Thats a fact.

Krispy

Yup, it's a fact

S
sermonindex

You need to be careful because you're judging someone who you admittingly have never heard of. Thats not at all biblical. I think if you take the time to find out who Keith was, you'll realize that it's foolish as well. Thats not an insult, it's truth.

How God used Keith Green is an inspiration to millions of people. Because of his message of the final two years of his life, thousands of people are serving God in the mission fields today.


Perhaps thats true, we really don't know. However, it is you Krispy, who needs to check his words because words mean something. What I wrote you need to read again.
In your endeavor to speak against my experiences and opinion you want my words to mean something more and against the person of Keith Green. I told you, I don't know the man; never heard of him. If I have and have forgotten, I didn't pay attention sufficient no doubt because of his music. His memory may last in many hearts. That may well be the case. But his music??
Only time will tell. There isn't much evidence so far that any of it or anyone else' has lasted except in the minds of a few. Most all of it has been shelved for progressively lesser quality hard-to-remember "sounds" which are remembered even less than his and will be on there way out as well.

I am reminded, as I write this, of Dallas Holmes', "Rise again". Went like gang busters back when; a real pretty "3 chord" tune played and sung quite well, I always get a thrill when I hear it. But thats the only one he wrote, isn't it? Get my point? Now I'm sure he had a wonderful testimony as well, however, we are speaking of music, not testimonies, correct? Will Dallas Holme be remembered? By a few, no doubt. How about his music? The one I mentioned I will remember and perhaps a few more people as well but we don't hear it played at all, anymore. I guess its time for new "sounds", the old ones quit working. ...Hmmm?? Something wrong with that picture.

Orm

C
crsschk

"The decline of Secular AND Christian music"

Should this be retitled, "The increase of bitter sentiment unnoticed"?

Dare anyone look closer at the heart of the matter, taking stock how much of this is based on personal preference and opinion, just what is being churned backed out into contention. Something indeed is wrong with this picture, the spirit behind it ...

S
sermonindex

Ormly... I thought I would point out that several of Keith's songs have found there way into a couple of hymnals, as well as many many praise and worship song books. I would consider that to be a statement to the lasting value of the music he wrote.

And here it is... 2006, and we're still talking about a man who died in a plane crash in 1983. Keith's name always comes up in every discussion about music I've ever been involved in on this board. On this very website, where you are saying you never heard of him, there are several recorded teachings that he gave. Heck, his picture is on the first page that comes up when you come to this website.

So, regardless of whether [i]you[/i] have heard of him or not, a whole generation of believers have, and are still impacted by his music, his articles, and his audio teachings.

All this... from a man who [i]gave his music away[/i] for whatever a person could afford. He asked his record company to release him from his contract because he believed he would be sinning if he sold his music... he believed the gospel should be free. He rejected any awards that people wanted to give him. In his final year he turned down many offers to appear in concert in order to go to the mission field. When he came back he preached hard for missions... and then he went home to be with Jesus.

There is a list of poeple I want to meet when I get to heaven... and Keith Green is numero uno. (Other than Jesus, of course)

I think if you spent some time reading his articles (which are available on line for free), and get to know the man before you just write him off because you havent heard of him... you might be surprised. Pleasantly, I might add. And I believe you might actually find that in some modern music, there can be both creativity and ministry combined.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Ok --- Like I said, he might be and you say he is, an ok guy. I won't argue with that.

Relax crsschk


:-D

S
sermonindex

Ormly... you seem to be saying that if someone does something of eternal signifigance (I think I just butchered that spelling!) then everyone will have heard about it.

I dont think thats true at all. Now, Keith's few short years as a believer has effected millions around the world, especially when you considered that the Lord used him to inspire thousands to become missionaries.... who then impact others all over the world.

What about the rural backwoods preacher who has a 75 member church? No one outside the community has ever heard of him... but there he is. Preaching the Word. Impacting lives in his little community. World-wide fame is not the benchmark for God's glory in a person's life. Even Keith loathed the fame that came along with his particular brand of ministry. He saw it as a hinderence to God's work, and to his personal walk. It was a catch-22 for him. In order for God's message to get out, He gave Keith an audience... rather LARGE audience... but some folks put him on a pedestal... and Keith struggled with pride... but without an audience God's message couldnt go forth.

Krispy

P
PTywama3

crsschk wrote:
"The decline of Secular AND Christian music"

Should this be retitled, "The increase of bitter sentiment unnoticed"?

Dare anyone look closer at the heart of the matter, taking stock how much of this is based on personal preference and opinion, just what is being churned backed out into contention. Something indeed is wrong with this picture, the spirit behind it ...

I think I agree, and I admit I haven't been a helpful influence.

Sorry Krispy...

C
Compton

I think it could be said that Keith Green's impact had more to do with his heart then his art. He was a talented guy for sure, but if well-crafted music was all he brought to the church (and world), he probably would have been only a minor blip in the history of contemporary Christian music.

It just goes to show you that, when it's all said and done, the quality of our music is not nearly as important as the quality of our walk with the Lord!

Blessings,

MC

S
sermonindex

MC... I agree with you. Notice that while discussing Keith, none of us really talked much about his music. We talked about his preaching, his attitude toward the recording industry, his heart for missions...

Krispy

C
Compton

Notice that while discussing Keith, none of us really talked much about his music

I think Keith Green would like that. ;-)

Blessings,

MC

F
freedbyjc

I think Keith Green would like that.

I totally agree.

IMHO:Keith's music was a personal expression of Worship that exhibited his love for Christ. The fact that it was Holy Spirit filled and God blessed, drew people near to him so that he could share with them the message of salvation. Keith would probably tell you [and he will one day] that his music was Christ's secondary gift to him. His ability to tell of the wonderous Love of Christ was the first and foremost in his mind.


This is how it is for me when I worship Christ publicly. Whether in the pew, speaking on the platform or singing in the spotlight...I sing for an audience of one...I seek to be invisible to allow the pure light Christ to shine through me and draw people to Him...I'm only a conduit of His power.

R
roadsign

It’s the toleration of the mixture that should be noted as the handicap we face and have to submit to if we are to "get along", not in the name of Christ but in the name of unity and consideration for the seeker who will only remain if his/hers self-satisfying sensibilties are placated.

In a democracy he who gets the most votes wins. That’s just the way we operate, including the church. As long as we run our churches that way, and want to remain a part of it, we have to live by the rules we ourselves have supported: the majority rules. If we end up in the minority, tough for us! We who don't like the stream - what should we expect! Different rules all of a sudden?

You see what I’m getting at? We can easily point to modern trend-setters as the culprits, but really we are part of the problem. We taught them the rules for the game. … a long time ago…

Consider our goals as evangelicals – to ‘win’ the masses. Think of the gimmicks that were around years ago. Compromise has been going on for at least 50 years – maybe much longer…. Maybe always.

R
roadsign

Earlier I asked some questions:

How do you decide what is NOT “creative?”, What is NOT “of God?”

Ormly replied:

Very simple, Diane. If it moves me to worship. ……

…what is presented me ALL TOO OFTEN doesn't take me there; doesn't take into His presence


A subjective definition, is it not?

Is this not the very same goal that our modern generation has: Music ( a certain style) is needed to move me into the presence of God? Just maybe the younger generation learned their values from their forbearers. The same goal – yet divided.

A mutual belief that causes fellowship to be divided is a faulty belief. It does not flow from the heart of God. It expresses man’s values – namely that “I” am the center, and my worship-leaders must give me what works for ME. And if it doesn’t than I will go where others do provide what I need in order to get to God. Music (along with the entire religious package) is given idolatrous power.

These beliefs have created a revolving-door syndrome in our churches. Family members and friends seek separate paths. Mutigenerational loyalty and love is lost to self-serving pursuits. This is a tragedy beyond what words could describe. Can a house divided against itself remain standing?

We are to be ministering to the Lord
Does God need our musical offerings? And anyway, who are we to think that God should even like our music – just because WE like it! Our music should be an opportunity to minister to the people – to be OTHER-centered! That is a wonderful way to tangibly express our love for God – by being considerate of others. What about the children? What about seniors? What about the fringe-dwellers? While we are “worshipping” do we even care about them? Or are we too busy in our own little world. When our “worship” replaces relational growth and mutual discipleship in our midst, we have merely turned our music into a self-serving god.

I do not for a minute absolve myself of the present-day trends. When I think back to my earlier years, I confess, I sacrificially served in the church largely to receive something from it for ME – a sense of belonging, friends, praises, security, righteousness. Back then, even in godly conservative churches, the germs of self-serving trends were lurking – undetected.

Today we merely reap the fruit.

S
sermonindex


roadsign wrote:
Earlier I asked some questions:
How do you decide what is NOT “creative?”, What is NOT “of God?”

Ormly replied:

Very simple, Diane. If it moves me to worship. ……

…what is presented me ALL TOO OFTEN doesn't take me there; doesn't take me into His presence


A subjective definition, is it not?

Indeed, it is. I look at music as a aid to worship.

Is this not the very same goal that our modern generation has: Music ( a certain style) is needed to move me into the presence of God? Just maybe the younger generation learned their values from their forbearers. The same goal – yet divided.

The idea of worship has become a shield for most to hide behind to excuse what the real desire is, i.e., sounds that please the flesh. A counterfeit that I sense going on because of great lack elseware.

A mutual belief that causes fellowship to be divided is a faulty belief. It does not flow from the heart of God. It expresses man’s values – namely that “I” am the center, and my worship-leaders must give me what works for ME. And if it doesn’t than I will go where others do provide what I need in order to get to God. Music (along with the entire religious package) is given idolatrous power.

It seems my choice of words was a poor choice where I said "it doesn't take me there". Perhaps a better way would be to say "sounds from the flesh inhibit my entering His presence or, if I was already in it, I no longer am thanks to the "beat" of whatever obnoxousess is presented me.

These beliefs have created a revolving-door syndrome in our churches. Family members and friends seek separate paths. Mutigenerational loyalty and love is lost to self-serving pursuits. This is a tragedy beyond what words could describe. Can a house divided against itself remain standing?

No. However, where does the problem lay?

We are to be ministering to the Lord

Yes. I can only wish that to be understood that no "uncircumcised" be allowed to play their "music" as to lead anyone in worship; no one without their "Linen" garment. What we see today is the uncircumcised leading the uncircumcised ---- but into worship???

Does God need our musical offerings?

Need? No. Desire? Yes.

And anyway, who are we to think that God should even like our music – just because WE like it! Our music should be an opportunity to minister to the people – to be OTHER-centered!

Church service is to be about worshiping God and learning of Him and nothing else. Believers need attend only, please. However, all others are welcome. Do you need a God ordained pattern for this?

That is a wonderful way to tangibly express our love for God – by being considerate of others. What about the children? What about seniors? What about the fringe-dwellers? While we are “worshipping” do we even care about them? Or are we too busy in our own little world. When our “worship” replaces relational growth and mutual discipleship in our midst, we have merely turned our music into a self-serving god.

What about the moving of the Holy Spirit upon committed born again lives from an attitude of true "WORTHSHIP"; worthship of Him as a Spirit bearing witness with spirit so that the unlearned can observe and be converted by that same Spirit? You are completely overlooking the Power that can be realized in worship ---- when it is truly, "worthship".

I do not for a minute absolve myself of the present-day trends. When I think back to my earlier years, I confess, I sacrificially served in the church largely to receive something from it for ME – a sense of belonging, friends, praises, security, righteousness. Back then, even in godly conservative churches, the germs of self-serving trends were lurking – undetected.

Me too.

Today we merely reap the fruit.

Indeed.

Rev. 22:9-11 (KJV)
".......for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

If change is to made, it must start with us and that by hungering and thirsting after Him who reciprocates to true worship from the saints. Where are the saints?

The following is an excerpt from Greg Gordon's article the "The Dethroned Christ". I believe it to apply to the subject of music in the church today as well as it's preaching. It may be the time to explain what we are presented as being a synthesized worship.

[b]OFFENDING A HOLY GOD[/b]

"Reverence, respect and solemnity for the character of God must begin and accompany true gospel preaching. The glorifying of God in preaching extols His character, holiness, attributes and draws a large conception of God. The problem with this modern day synthetic gospel is that we preach man’s need and not God’s character with utmost urgency".


Orm ------- :-(

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roadsign

Ormly said,

I look at music as a aid to worship.
Music that turns us God-ward is a blessing - not a prerequisite. I fear that we have given music a power that is beyond what God has given it. We easily worship our “worship”, and live our faith vicariously through the experience music provides – regardless of the style.
The idea of worship has become a shield for most to hide behind to excuse what the real desire is...
This is the plight of religious practise in general – an inoculation against the real thing, a way of escaping from facing our real selves. That is our real desire, and that keeps us distance from God (who he really is). Our “worship” is our modern “fig-leaves”. The church (small “c”) has been offering fig leaves for centuries. Really, (hypocritical) religion is all about hiding from God behind something that gives us a sense of righteousness. That, I feel is an answer to your question:
…where does the problem lay?
Go back to the Garden, and then you’ll get to the root of the problem.
A counterfeit that I sense going on because of great lack elseware.
It is this lack that we should focus on – the lack, not the symptom. It is all about a LACK in the souls of man. If those wandering lost and lonely souls become satisfied in Christ, the tendency towards misuse of music would dissipate. There would be no need for a cheep substitute.

"sounds from the flesh inhibit my entering His presence or, if I was already in it, I no longer am thanks to the "beat" of whatever obnoxousess is presented me.
Of course subjectivity makes it hard to define parameters. Flesh? There are a lot of beautiful musical sounds that originate from unsaved people – in fact, as far as I’m concerned, by far, the most aesthetically pleasing sounds, and including sacred songs do not come from true Christians now or ever in the past.

I can praise God, and enjoy him through recordings and concerts that are completely outside of the Christian environment, or the Sunday morning “sacred” hour. Ooshy gooshy god-like feelings is not the highest blessing that can come from music. There are many others, either as a participant or audience. How about the joy of working together in unity and harmony - as a team.

We are to be ministering to the Lord
As you pointed out, that must become true for our personal lives. We can’t make our entire church fellowships or praise teams become God-centered. My goodness, I struggle with that all the time. To expect our church congregations, or even the leaders to have a mature level of devotion to God is just not realistic. It’s utopia-thinking. We have to live in the real world, not our ideals. There is no point in contriving a fantasy. We need revival. And that starts with me as you said:
If change is to made, it must start with us and that by hungering and thirsting after Him who reciprocates to true worship from the saints.


I can only wish that to be understood that no "uncircumcised" be allowed to play their "music" as to lead anyone in worship; no one without their "Linen" garment. What we see today is the uncircumcised leading the uncircumcised ---- but into worship???

Let the dead bury the dead.

I asked:

Does God need our musical offerings?
You responded:
Need? No. Desire? Yes.
God desires our hearts. Any offerings that spring forth from a pure heart are pleasing to him. We don't make music in order to please him. That's a works doctrine.

One day God asked me to give him a private concert. I balked, thinking how ridiculous it would be to practise hard and then only play it for him. He told me, clearly, “Am I not a good enough audience for you?” Let me tell you, that broke me up. I became aware of my sloppy attitude towards him, and realized that he wants my first-fruits (and it wasn’t even religious music that he wanted – it was Chopin, something I never play these days). If our music is an offering to God, then we don’t need any other audience – including a congregation.

Church service is to be about worshiping God and learning of Him and nothing else. Believers need attend only please. However, all others are welcome. Do you need a God ordained pattern for this?

If you want that ideal, you’d have to go to a persecuted country, where only the authentic dare associate themselves with God’s people. But you’d have to give up your idea of church, including the music you love. You may only be able to whisper hymns and spiritual songs to one another.

Where are the saints?

God can lead. One day I visited a dear lady and we sang together in her home – just praising God.

We don’t enter God’s presence through music, but through the torn veil. Music is not necessarily the medium God needs to talk to us. In fact, sometimes he “turns the radio off” so that we can hear his voice. That’s exactly what he did one day when I was in church. Suddenly the music was tuned out, and God spoke to me. It was a painful prophetic message about that congregation. While the people were joyously praising God with hands in the air, I was in tears, knowing that God was about to take us all into some fiery trials.

My worship of him grows deeper through my times in the Word. It brings me to ever deepening truth about myself, and my need for him. Greg’s thoughts deserve our contemplation:

"Reverence, respect and solemnity for the character of God must begin and accompany true gospel preaching. The glorifying of God in preaching extols His character, holiness, attributes and draws a large conception of God. The problem with this modern day synthetic gospel is that we preach man’s need and not God’s character with utmost urgency".

The vacuum created by weak preaching is being replaced by music – as an effort to find God. But it is only another way of bi-passing the brazen altar.

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God desires our hearts. Any offerings that spring forth from a pure heart are pleasing to him. We don't make music in order to please him. That's a works doctrine.

To whom then is it made?? :-?

Quote:


Church service is to be about worshiping God and learning of Him and nothing else. Believers need attend only please. However, all others are welcome. Do you need a God ordained pattern for this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want that ideal, you’d have to go to a persecuted country, where only the authentic dare associate themselves with God’s people. But you’d have to give up your idea of church, including the music you love. You may only be able to whisper hymns and spiritual songs to one another.

The Ideal?? The Church is the Body of Christ. That means what it says. If that is idealistic to you may I suggest a re-reading of scriptures that say it is the normal church. Less than that is sub-normal and anti-Christ.

FWIW and in case you haven't noticed, persecution is with us.

:-(

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roadsign

I said:

We don't make music in order to please him. That's a works doctrine.
You said:
To whom then is it made??
Maybe I should have written: “We don’t make music in order to WIN God – or win his approval, or to measure up in his eyes, or to chase away the demons, or to bring down a divine manifestation. Those objectives arise from a works doctrine – not to say that people can’t be blessed in spite of faulty motives. It happens all the time.

If that is idealistic to you may I suggest a re-reading of scriptures that say it is the normal church.

I didn’t use the word ‘idealistic’ – as if the “normal church”, as God sets forth, is an unreasonable desire. But since we don’t have it, and we can’t make it happen, we must figure out how to live in the reality – as it is, not as we wish it to be. We praise God for the little flickers of blessings we receive through it, and we bring blessing into the lives of the people rather than merely wish they could improve so that we could have a better experience.

persecution is with us.

We haven’t seen anything yet! Compromise keeps it at bay for now. I'm sure that God will take care of that. After all, he's not willing that any should perish.

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roadsign wrote:
I said:
We don't make music in order to please him. That's a works doctrine.
You said:
To whom then is it made??
Maybe I should have written: “We don’t make music in order to WIN God – or win his approval, or to measure up in his eyes, or to chase away the demons, or to bring down a divine manifestation. Those objectives arise from a works doctrine – not to say that people can’t be blessed in spite of faulty motives. It happens all the time.

Music is to be to Him; worshipful sounds - to Him, pleasing to His ears from hearts full of devotion.

If that is idealistic to you may I suggest a re-reading of scriptures that say it is the normal church.

I didn’t use the word ‘idealistic’ – as if the “normal church”, as God sets forth, is an unreasonable desire. But since we don’t have it, and we can’t make it happen, we must figure out how to live in the reality – as it is, not as we wish it to be. We praise God for the little flickers of blessings we receive through it, and we bring blessing into the lives of the people rather than merely wish they could improve so that we could have a better experience.

That's nothing but compromise; man's reasoning in the matter. Leadership using the tools of Broadway to win those in the broadway.

You used the word "ideal" in your reasoning to be something that can't be reached. I disagree. The ideal is where we are to be regardless of the following. Jesus was the ideal that people followed. You must remember, the world hated Him. So where do you think you/we should stand in the matter?

persecution is with us.

We haven’t seen anything yet! Compromise keeps it at bay for now. I'm sure that God will take care of that. After all, he's not willing that any should perish.

Compromise, man's reasoning, takes care of that? And how much of Christ should be compromised to "win" the world? You have aroused my curiousity, especially since compromise is under God's judgment.

:-?

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I'm curious... how is creating music, specifically modern music, necessarily a compromise? Bach's name has come up several times, and Bach's music was just as much influenced by the music of his times as modern music is now. How do we know one style of music is more godly than another?

Do you wear a suit & tie? Isnt that influenced by the world? Not a bad thing, a suit and tie. But it is influenced by worldy fashion. Jesus wore what people wore while He walked the earth... there is nothing holy about the clothes He wore. (we're not talking about modesty here... the Bible has a lot to say about that)

Jesus went to wedding festivities. He went to the house of Pharisees... do you not think that there was music being played there? There is no mention of whether or not He condoned it, but neither is there any mention of Him condemning it because it had a worldy influence. In fact, the Bible is quite positive about music, with the exception of times when music was being used in idol worship, and the people's hearts were far from God.

If people make an idol of music, or musicians, that is a sin. But I contend that is possible to create and enjoy music that has a modern bent to it and not make an idol of it.

It seems that you are saying once you listen to one note of modern music you've made an idol of it. Not true... not true at all. People made an idol of classical music. I think it's more prevelant today because of technology... so perhaps we should condemn all technology. No iPods for Christians. No CD players.

Krispy

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Ormly... just wondering... are you a Charismatic? I ask this because a lot of your opinions seem to be based on your experience. In other words, you seem to base your opinions on music on whether or not it moves [b]you[/b]. If it doesn't move [b]you[/b] to worship, then you condemn it as being worldly. You've brought up some scripture to supposedly bolster your position, but so far I am unconvinced.

Just because something doesn't appeal to you, or move you, doesn't mean it doesn't move anyone else. Certain things move my wife emotionally, and do nothing for me. She cried when Bambi's mother got shot... and I was wondering how much that fattened doe weighed when she was dressed out. (Plus... I wondered what kind of lame parents name their son "Bambi"?!?!)

See what I mean?

Krispy

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PaulWest

She cried when Bambi's mother got shot... and I was wondering how much that fattened doe weighed when she was dressed out.

But I bet you bawled like a baby when Old Yeller got shot! :-)

(C'mon, fess up. It's all right. I cried when they shot down King Kong!)

Seriously, though - Good posts, Steve. Especially the reference to JS Bach and the music of his time. I consider myself somewhat of an aficionado on the life and music of Bach, and the impact his liturgical music had on the western world. You are quite right in what you posted. Bach didn't come up with any new "style" of music; his ouvre was rather the supreme culmination of French, German and Italian baroque styles that were already in preexistence. He brought the glory of Lutheran choral music to its utmost summit, and in my opinion, one that will never be surpassed. I think it's apples and oranges though to compare the secular music of Bach's time with the secular music of today. You realize, of course, that Bach never wrote opera because he considered the genre too worldy and frivilous. Nevermind bringing it into the church!

Bach was religiously unique, and had very conservative convictions, unlike Handel and Mozart - who both composed operas amidst their great Christian works. I've heard that Handel, the composer of the [i]Messiah[/i], composed parts of the illustrious masterpeice drunk. Mozart was a known Freemason.

Why do I say all this? Not for gossip. I think Bach may be a poor argument for justification of contemporary muisc in the church. Did you know that in his time, we was known unaffectionately as "Old Wig" because his compositional styles were so out of vogue, so pious, so stiff? Baroque music, around the time of the 1720's and 30's was transitioning into the lighter, more gallant Rococo style of France and the style eventually penetrated the church music of Bach's time as well (his sons were great proponents of this stylistic change). But Bach was a staunch purest, and withstood the popular fashion and continued to compose in the outdated and pious Lutheran chorale style until the day he died. In fact, Bach's death in 1750 is now considered the [i]exact point[/i] in history by musicologists where the official style of western music shifted from baroque to early classical.

So - I believe Bach is not a good trump for anyone to win a "contemporary music in the house of God" debate. Handel is a much better choice!

Blessings,

Brother Paul

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But I bet you bawled like a baby when Old Yeller got shot!

... yea, but he was a dog. Thats different!

Krispy

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You realize, of course, that Bach never wrote opera because he considered the genre too worldy and frivilous.

Hmmm... not quote true, bro...

He never wrote an opera that was to be [i]staged[/i].

I did some quick research on this cuz I have on mp3 an operatic composition by Bach, and when I read what you said I thought "what do you mean? I have a recording of one of them!"

I am now quoting from a website about Bach:

[i]He was criticized for using operatic techniques of composition in his liturgical music and passions, so you might say he wrote pseudo operas if you like.

There is a problem though, particularly in the passions, of narrative, since the music alternatively presents the story, (recitatives and some choruses) then comments on it from outside, (arias) and then speaks for the audience (chorales).

A lot of arias and duets and even some entire cantatas are entirely dramatic, but very difficult to stage. Cantata BWV 60, es ist genug, is a dialog between fear and hope which is as operatic as anything in its musical structure, but represents a psychological drama more than a physical drama.[/i]

Look at me...! An old Marine, ex-metal head waxing on about Bach! lol

Krispy

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PaulWest

Dear Steve,

Please tell me the name of the unstaged opera...seriously. I've been studying Bach for over 20 years (not to brag). What is your source, what is the BWV number, and are you sure it's not a secular cantata? There is a big difference between cantata form and opera. Bach wrote no opera, staged or unstaged, this I can assure you (unless it is newly discovered, circa 2006!)

Humbly,

Brother Paul

p.s. I read your post more carefully. It seems they are comparing [i]operatic content[/i] with that of the Passion music of St. Matthew and John. That is because there is a "libretto", but the libretto is the gospel itself! The Passions were written to be sung (not acted out or with any particular style of dress or showy theatrics) in church during the season of Good Friday. The baritone sings Jesus' words, a tenor is the narrator, sopranos sing the part of Mary and Martha. A bass sings Pilate. But the "script" is the actual gospel text! No changes. It's simply Passion music (and very, very pious, I might add) sung by character, and not one ounce of gallantry or triteness is intermingeld; I think Martin Luther's "O Sacred Head Now Wounded" is harmonized like 25 different times. Have you heard them? They are tremendous! Will bring you to your knees!

Bach [i]never[/i] wrote an opera, I repeat.

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Dude... we're getting in over my head now... I'm no expert. I just enjoy the music. (Sorry Ormly... I know I shouldnt "enjoy" music... that would be fleshly.. :-))

This is how my mp3's are tagged (thanx to my wife...)

Matthaus-Passion BWV 244

Does that help?

Krispy

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PaulWest

Okay, Steve, thanks. As you can see, I already guessed it was St. Matthew Passion music. Note that St Matthew BWV224 is a [i]passion[/i], not an opera. If someone would have told Bach it reminded them of an opera, he probably would have been greaty insulted! He is even on record by his son's testimony of mocking opera! Comparing his Passion music to opera in the sense as we know it, would be like, well, comparing Charles Wesley's poetry to Mother Goose rhymes.

God Bless you,

Paul

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... I dont know... sounds like an opera to me! LOL

Krispy

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PaulWest

LOL, well Krisp, whatever edifies your spirit, so be it! A rose called by any other name would smell just as sweet. Thanks for the discussion.

The Lord richly bless you,

Brother Paul

BTW, your signature reminds me of a tongue message. And here you are, questioning Ormly! Haven't you read that you should shouldn't speak publically without an interpretation? :-?

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'm curious... how is creating music, specifically modern music, necessarily a compromise? Bach's name has come up several times, and Bach's music was just as much influenced by the music of his times as modern music is now. How do we know one style of music is more godly than another?

Do you wear a suit & tie? Isnt that influenced by the world? Not a bad thing, a suit and tie. But it is influenced by worldy fashion. Jesus wore what people wore while He walked the earth... there is nothing holy about the clothes He wore. (we're not talking about modesty here... the Bible has a lot to say about that)

Jesus went to wedding festivities. He went to the house of Pharisees... do you not think that there was music being played there? There is no mention of whether or not He condoned it, but neither is there any mention of Him condemning it because it had a worldy influence. In fact, the Bible is quite positive about music, with the exception of times when music was being used in idol worship, and the people's hearts were far from God.

If people make an idol of music, or musicians, that is a sin. But I contend that is possible to create and enjoy music that has a modern bent to it and not make an idol of it.

It seems that you are saying once you listen to one note of modern music you've made an idol of it. Not true... not true at all. People made an idol of classical music. I think it's more prevelant today because of technology... so perhaps we should condemn all technology. No iPods for Christians. No CD players.

Krispy

Yeah, I've heard that. All you trying to do is label me a legalist. What you fail to realize in your argument is that holiness, respect, reverence for the Lord's house and His alter is now looked upon as legalism by the modern church cult who can no longer make distinctions between going to church and going to the beach.... All in the name of unity and "lets win the world".

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roadsign

I found an enlightening article for you all - especially Krispy who is trying hard to fit in with the best of the connoisseurs. Krispy I'm proud of you for giving it a noble shot. I learned something from you. However, this one comments needs some adjustment. Really Bach transcended trends and culture. That's why his music lasted.

Bach's music was just as much influenced by the music of his times as modern music is now.


For now, the following article will enlighten you sufficiently to impress all your peers:

The Young Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra
by Garrison Keillor

To each person, God gives some talent such as comedy, just to name one, or the ability to suffer, and to some persons God has given musical talent, though not to as many as think so. So for a young Lutheran considering an orchestral career, the first question to ask yourself is, "Do I have a genuine God-given talent, or do I only seem talented compared to other young Lutherans?"

Because most Lutherans aren't musicians, they're choir members. Mostly altos and basses. And they can be sure that their gift is God-given, because who else but God would be interested? Nobody goes into choir music for the wrong reasons. But orchestra... do you know what you're getting into? You're getting into opera for one thing. Don Juan and Mephistopheles, pagan goddesses screeching and being strangled and thrown off balconies. And even if you stick to concert music, where are the Christian composers? Modern ones are existentialists, the romantics were secular humanists, the 18th century was all rationalists, and the 17th were Italian except for Bach. And you can't make a living playing Bach.

In the Bible, we read about people singing and playing musical instruments, including the harp, the last trumpet, the cymbal, the psaltery. But in the Bible, music was in praise of the Lord, not for amusement. We don't read that our Lord Himself ever played an instrument or enjoyed hearing other people play theirs. The apostles did not attend concerts. They weren't in the arts -- maybe there's a reason for that....

read more here: [url=http://www.geocities.com/catha-edulis/humor/lutheran.htm]The Young Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra[/url] Find out what instruments are too sinful for Christians to play, and which ones are acceptable. You will be very surprised.

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Yeah, I've heard that. All you trying to do is label me a legalist. What you fail to realize in your argument is that holiness, respect, reverence for the Lord's house and His alter is now looked upon as legalism by the modern church cult who can no longer make distinctions between going to church and going to the beach.... All in the name of unity and "lets win the world".

Thats not at all what I am saying. Again, you refuse to go back and read the over 2,400 posts I have written on this forum in an effort to get to know me... so you make rediculous assumptions about me, and put words in my mouth in what appears to be an attempt to make yourself look like I'm persecuting you.

You saying I am against holiness is laughable. As far as God's house and God's alter... His house is not made of wood and stone, and His alter is my heart. You can call an oak railing God's alter if you wish, but it's gonna burn up like chaff. So are our "God's houses" that some heathen construction company was hired to build.

I really wish, Ormly, that you would take some time to get to know my heart... it's laid out on this forum for all to see. But you refuse to do it. How sad that is.

Krispy

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Ormly... the most frustrating part of all this for me is that I let you bait me into these silly arguments. It's really becoming a waste of time.

You think what you want. If you wish to operate on misunderstandings, be my guest.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Yeah, I've heard that. All you trying to do is label me a legalist. What you fail to realize in your argument is that holiness, respect, reverence for the Lord's house and His alter is now looked upon as legalism by the modern church cult who can no longer make distinctions between going to church and going to the beach.... All in the name of unity and "lets win the world".

Thats not at all what I am saying. Again, you refuse to go back and read the over 2,400 posts I have written on this forum in an effort to get to know me... so you make rediculous assumptions about me, and put words in my mouth in what appears to be an attempt to make yourself look like I'm persecuting you.

You saying I am against holiness is laughable. As far as God's house and God's alter... His house is not made of wood and stone, and His alter is my heart. You can call an oak railing God's alter if you wish, but it's gonna burn up like chaff. So are our "God's houses" that some heathen construction company was hired to build.

I really wish, Ormly, that you would take some time to get to know my heart... it's laid out on this forum for all to see. But you refuse to do it. How sad that is.

Krispy

DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH! I didn't say you were against holiness. If the best you can do is misrepresent my words..... don't respond to them.

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Not sure how else I was to interpret your words, brutha. Several times on this thread you have implied that I am willing to sacrifice holiness... so if I'm wrong this time, forgive me. But in light of the rest of the conversation, I dont see how else I'm supposed to take that.

I just wish you could stick to the subject. Only about 5% of everything you've written on this thread has anything to do with the topic.

There is another thread called "They Sold Their Souls For Rock-n-Roll" that is actually closer to the topic of this thread than this thread is!

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Not sure how else I was to interpret your words, brutha. Several times on this thread you have implied that I am willing to sacrifice holiness... so if I'm wrong this time, forgive me. But in light of the rest of the conversation, I dont see how else I'm supposed to take that.

I just wish you could stick to the subject. Only about 5% of everything you've written on this thread has anything to do with the topic.

There is another thread called "They Sold Their Souls For Rock-n-Roll" that is actually closer to the topic of this thread than this thread is!

Krispy


Never mind refering to the other "several times", speak of your last post where you misreprsented my words. Words mean something. Try reading mine a little better than you do or at least ask questions before you accuse.

Orm

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OK... what was your point?

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
OK... what was your point?

Krispy

My point now is that you stop misrepresenting what I write. While I'll admit my writing can be improved upon, however, I was quite clear on my point concerning legalism perceived vs lack of holiness, not recognized. I stand my remark. Distinctions need to made.

Orm

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OK... I understand that. Now, how does that relate to the topic of this thread?

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
OK... I understand that. Now, how does that relate to the topic of this thread?

Krispy

I don't know anymore.

S
sermonindex

LOL.... sorry brother! Yesterday wasnt a good day for either of us, I guess.

Have a cup of Joe with me this morning? Freshly brewed...

Krispy

R
roadsign

how does that relate to the topic of this thread?

Krispy, 26 pages, and I feel that we have barely scratched the surface of an excellent topic - of decline in music in our culture. We typically gravitate towards issues surrounding the church service and personal matters, but would do better to consider the implications of music on our society in general. Can we move on? Maybe if we do, we can actually do something about the problem.

We aren’t the only ones concerned. Educators are too. Just google: Music Benefits Education - and you will find loads of material to enhance this topic. Without taking a deeper look we really miss the overall reason why God gave us the ability to make music. Yes, I do believe that God gave us music to benefit humanity. He doesn’t need it for his own well-being, though of course is pleased when we use our abilities to express gratitude to him.


Tragically, ungodly societal values like competitiveness, defence, commercialism, etc take root the further society gets from God. These sinful goals always take its toll on the individuals in our society. Music takes a downward plunge, because it doesn't benefit the bigger "cause".

Music has a vital role in creating overall well-being – just like eating healthy food. I know Christians are quick to shout “Humanism” when you talk about anything that benefits mankind. But is a humanitarian perspective really evil? To believe so does not reflect the attitude that Jesus portrayed when he was on earth. We must minister to the needs of the people, not just tell them they are going to hell if they don’t “accept Jesus”. Music has a significant role, and Christians would do well to broaden their understanding, and make better use of it.

For instance, on the web there is an article describing how music reduces labor pains. That kind of thinking just doesn’t enter out minds because we have been programmed by the pharmaceutical philosophy: there is a drug for all your troubles.

I also found an article that differentiates between ACTIVE music (when you are actually making it) and PASSIVE music (when someone else makes it - which I think is what this thread has focused on) . I realize that this is not a Christian article, but just because humanists take God’s truth doesn’t mean we should throw it all out.


Here are a few quotes from [url=http://www.amc-music.com/news/articles/AMM.htm]Active Music Making and Wellness[/url]:
Active music making can powerfully influence people's thoughts and feelings; and, it differs from passive music listening in several ways.

…music making expands mental abilities that are essential to good mental function, while music listening allows minds to wander

Though passive music listening provides some diversion from stressors, it cannot afford the success and the self-esteem that can come from actually making music.

Active music making can help structure time, both while playing and while planning a daily schedule. It helps making time meaningful and purposeful. Also, active music making provides opportunities to declare individual interests and preferences, to express strong emotions, to display individuality and flare, to derive feelings of worth, and to have something to anticipate.

While passive listening provides some of these outcomes, making music goes beyond the boundaries of prerecorded sounds to unique and personal expressions and communications to positive self-regard and good self-care that are essential to well-being.
Something else to consider: How do our church musicians become good musicians?


( By the way, Krispy, Any comment on my last post to you?)

S
sermonindex

Diane... which post? The one about Bach?

I think you're right. We've barely scratched the surface... however, it seems that the thread "They Sold Their Souls For Rock-n-Roll" kinda picked up the topic of this thread and ran with it.

I would like to read your post again when I can slow down and absorb it a little better. I'll be back...

Krispy

S
sermonindex


KrispyKrittr wrote:
LOL.... sorry brother! Yesterday wasnt a good day for either of us, I guess.

Have a cup of Joe with me this morning? Freshly brewed...

Krispy

Already into my 4th mug :-P ;-)

Here's something to consider as
"what's happenin" throughout, not just society but also the church.

Enter here:

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geupmVTWRF_B8AUBVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3ajg4ODdpBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDOQRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANGNjU0XzExMw--/SIG=12ec4rk5n/EXP=1164287765/**http%3a//www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/1990s/ts980420.html

S
sermonindex

I've only skimmed the article so far... but I agree!! No arguments from me about that!

Krispy

R
roadsign

Diane... which post? The one about Bach?

Go back a page - "The Young Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra" post. I realize that it is mainly humerous, but it does have a nasty dig to it: it exposes the foolishness of legalistic measures of solving worldliness - something that has plagued music in the church for centuries.

S
sermonindex

I'll go back and check it out as soon as I get a chance...

Krispy

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