Please pray for my wife...

Please pray for my wife Rachael. She went out to see her counsellor, and has not come home yet. *Edit* I worried that she is capable of taking her life, and may be making plans to do so *Edit*.

She'd die of embaressment if she knew that I was postining this, as she is an extremely private person, but I am afraid, and can't do this on my own.

Thanks in advance.

Will pray.

Maybe there are other Christians you know who could pray for you wife, and perhaps fast too?

Details are not necessary, as long as they are willing to pray with you, it will help your wife and you also as you seek God.

God bless.

Aaron,

... fear not dear brother.

Father...

Aaron, I pray she returns home safely. Don't underestimate the strength of God's existence in her, and don't underestimate the strength of a Christian marriage that reflects God'd glory - She may just need some time to herself to get some perspective.
Trust that God wants what is best for you and will never abandon you.

Joshua 1:5 - No-one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

Have faith, Aaron. Please post a message when she gets home ok? God bless. Anna. x

Will pray Aaron.

Praying here also...

Ron

Munchkin wrote:
Have faith, Aaron. Please post a message when she gets home ok? God bless. Anna. x

She's just got home. Thanks for your prayers. It's not over yet, but at least she's home:cry:.

Thanks again, I'm deeply humbled.

you have my prayers and intercession.

It's not over yet, but at least she's home

Continuing... Know it is getting late there brother... that the Lord grant you both rest and His peace.

Thank you for your prayers. I thought I'd better update you all, because I have had a few queries. Let's just say, it's not over yet, but things are better than when I put out the request.

Dealing with depression is a cyclic roller coaster ride, but things are improving:-). I think that your prayers are having greatest work in myself, personally. Since Thursday night, I have been blessed with increase patience and understand that goes beyond mere comprehension.

For those who know little about depression, it makes life have the perception of being difficult, to the point of impossibility, causing many to become suicidal out of utter despair. This suicidal tendancy is not one of mere selfishness, but of hopelessness. For Rach, it is a matter of "I see how my behvaiour affects you and the children, so I must conclude that you would be far better without me." Being a Christian, she would not divorce, as she knows that that would lead to a life of celibacy for me, until she dies, or returns (not I'm not going to discuss that issue, it is settled for me, whether it is for you or not), or adultery, which is to sin against God. Considering all this, the only alternative that she can see is suicide, as that would "liberate" our family from being obliged to her.

This is where another component of depression shows; it isn't very rational. Because the suicide would lead to the possible ruin of the lives of our children (and me for that matter), who will inevitably take upon themselves the blame for the whole thing, no matter how hard she, or anyone else, tried to persuade them otherwise.

Now the thing is, put all these thoughts into a depressed mind, and you have a self propelling problem, where your "damned if you don't" and "damned if you do", so to speak. It's like this, depressed people react in ways that hurt people. Then the depressed one's depression worsens, due to the shame of realising that their behaviour contributed to that person being hurt. Then the hurt one reacts in a "non productive" manner, where emotions like fear, and shame manifest as rage and detachment, which in turn hurts the depressed one.

In the mind of the depressed one, go thoughts like, "I wish I could handle the noise that my children make when they're having fun", which are offest with "That noise is driving me nuts", and comes out, "Will you just shut up!! I can't handle the noise!!" This doesn't sound like much, but it is often being directed at her four year old daughter. Then there is the guilt of the explosion, wishing it could be taken back, and the cycle begins again.

Anyway, put an opinionated person like me into the mix (really, I know you don't think that I'm like that ;-)), and not only do you feel bad about what you're going through, but now you understand in minute detail, why you should "have cause" to feel bad.

Anyway, somehow, I've have been able to hold back my opinions, while still dishing out my love. I've been exceedingly humbled by the whole experience, bacxuase I know that it is not me, it is God in me. Thanks again to all who have been praying for us, I covet them still, and look forward to being able to say we are through all this.

it is God in me

[u]Show[/u] her your love . . . even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it.

Praise the LORD for giving you more time!

I will be praying for you both.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Thank you for your prayers. I thought I'd better update you all, because I have had a few queries. Let's just say, it's not over yet, but things are better than when I put out the request.

Just had another turn around. Rach went out today for some time to her self, and has desided that she made the wrong decision of Thursday night. Thankfully, she rang her counseller to tell her, and she talked her into staying at her house for a couple of days, to be around someone "safe" (ie, no expectations, and minimal reactions from outbursts, etc).

Once again trusting God, who dwells in darkness. I once pondered Psalm 91:1 "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High, shall abide in the shadow of the Almighty" and thought, "How can One who [b]is[/b] light cast a shadow, when a shadow is the result of light obstructed?" As I pondered, a thought occured to me, "Perhaps the shadow is one cast by an 'object' that comes between the Light Source and the 'abider'." If this were true, then the shadow would be at it's blackest upon being closest to the 'object', but the assurance would be that the Lord is just on the other side.

My hope and prayer is that I nor Rach are amongst the "one thousand" and "ten thousand" that "shall fall" on either side of the abider. Oh Lord, that I would abide in Thee, and that Rach would with me.

Hi Aaron,

Two burdens amongst many ... Maybe it is in emphasis but yourself and Rachel and the young man about to be adopted by an unholy alliance [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12598&forum=48#101486]devestated[/url].

Anyway, somehow, I've have been able to hold back my opinions, while still dishing out my love.

It changes the whole dynamic, it is a different kind of love, a different kind of compassion, a different kind of patience and a whole other realm of intercession. Utter dependence, only the Lord...

Continuing for you both

Father,
In the name of Jesus, the Name above all Names.
Please touch Rachael and Aaron.
You alone are able to do this.
Sometimes people take things like this lightly, but You never do, for You are touched with the feelings of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Take care of this situation, and bring Your Peace, as only You can do.
Only You can heal any part of your Creation, so please touch Rachaels mind.
Let her know You love her in spite of what she is going through.
We ask You for Mercy in this situation.
In Jesus Name. Amen

Thank God, Rachael is Home.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Just had another turn around. Rach went out today for some time to her self, and has desided that she made the wrong decision of Thursday night. Thankfully, she rang her counseller to tell her, and she talked her into staying at her house for a couple of days, to be around someone "safe" (ie, no expectations, and minimal reactions from outbursts, etc).

I have a praise report!!! Today I received my fisrt communication from Rach, in the form of an SMS message. The words "10Q 4 being patient with me" came to my cellphone at 12:50pm this afternoon.

Though it is a mere "cloud the size of a mans hand", it has filled my heart with intense joy. Her counsellor has recommended that she say with her until the weekend, so that she can come home refreshed before having to face two needy children's demands.

The kids are surprisingly okay, and probably more at peace than normal. They have been told what's going on, in terms that a 4 and 6 year old can grasp, withoiut scarring them for life. They know that "Mummy's sick, and her sickness makes her sad. She's spending a little time away, so she can get some rest, because she's afraid that she she might get angry with you, even though you have done nothing wrong. She loves you very much, and doesn't want you to think that she doesn't like you."

In the midst of this all, the Lord has shown me so much about myself, and Him. Thank you for all your prayers, they have been as a life line for me, as I learn what it is to "[b]Count[/b] it all joy, in diverse trials..."

:-D

I rejoice with you Aaron. The cloud the size of a man's hand was the beginning of a great rain. Elijah had put his head between his knees he prayed so hard. Glory to the name of the Lord!

CJaKfOrEsT,

There is nothing too big or too small for the lord. I will bear you and your family up in my prayers.

Isaiah 41:10 So do not fear, for I am with you;do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous hand

Amen

Hi CJaKfOrEsT...

Thank you for updating us. Please know that there are many people praying. Our God is exceedingly great. If "his eye is on a sparrow," this situation is certainly in his mind. Be encouraged!

:-)

"10Q 4 being patient with me"

What an encouraging word brother... How much is contained in that small cloud. Rejoicing and praying yet still with you brother.

Perhaps I should take this occasion to mention my own wife, Lisa. While I believe the Lord has given me something that I am holding tight to and so much so that I feel I cannot reveal it, just a particular verse ... Still, prayers for her are coveted. She has some anxieties and,... may the Lord reveal by His Spirit just what is needed.

Thank you saints.

Brother Aaron,

For some reason I am having trouble getting past this statement that you made:

"Anyway, somehow, I've have been able to hold back my opinions, while still dishing out my love".

If we perceive that Jesus is holding back "opinions" of us while he "dishes" out His love . . . well, isn't that saying that we think there is hidden darkness in Him?

It is His pure love of us that makes Him irresistible - that gives us peace.

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

HeartSong wrote:
"Anyway, somehow, I've have been able to hold back my opinions, while still dishing out my love".

If we perceive that Jesus is holding back "opinions" of us while he "dishes" out His love . . . well, isn't that saying that we think there is hidden darkness in Him?

More that He hides in darkness. This is reference to my tendency toward being highly critical (I believe that I mentioned this in an earlier post). It's the old, "This is how I face the situation, and if you tried it, it might work" mentality, when God knows the heart. and what is best for the situation. Most times my well meaning advice would have the effect of burdening Rach with something else that she "isn't doing right", which is a toxic thing for a depression sufferer.

I do realise what you mean, and I agree with the sentament. Rach is being shown how I really feel, and that is deeply concerned and desiring of her to find joy, for her own sake, and the Lord's, without requiring that joy be directed at me. This was if it is, it is a gift, and not an obligation. That's what true love is all about.

Sorry I didn't make myself clearer earlier.

Thank you for your continued prayers. Things have been progressing well, but suddenly a turn for the worse. Somehow Rach managed to get 20 of her anti-anxiety tablets into her, and she has been admitted into hospital, for observation. I have spoken to her this morning, and she is groggy and feeling a little embarrassed, afraid that people will be angry at her.

Rach is a recovering anorexic, from when she was a teenager, and has been falling into old habit patterns. I got to see her the other day, and she is almost "skin and bone", and won't believe anyone who points this out to her.

Combine the two together, and you have a particularly toxic cocktail.

Jesus' deliverance of the demon possessed boy, on the way back from the Mount of Transfiguration, comes to mind. Perhaps this is a testimony to my relative prayerlessness.

I appreciate and covet your continual prayers, they are as a "faith transfusion" for me, who is finding it more and more difficult to see God in all this. I guess this is the true point of faith, for the believer, to hold on and trust Him, in spite of every fibre of my being trying to make me believe that He has let me down.

On a side note, for those in Australia, the current issue of Madison Magazine has an article on "Recovered Memories" and Rach's history is the main feature of the story. She was interviewed quite a few months ago, but the story has only just gone to print. This may give you a little insight into her situation, as to some of the factors that led her to this point.

Well the good news is, Rach is home:-). The bad news is, she currently weighs only 37kg and is averaging a couple of mouthfuls a day. Today I noticed that she had no visible back muscles, and all I could see was rib cage. She has told me that the reason that she left her counsellor's house is because she got sick of her "hassling" her about her weigh (have spoken to her counsellor and she had only mentioned it a few times, usually comparing her to other people that Rach would consider slim, and yet were 10 or 20kg heavier).

Rach had a history of anorexia before we met, and was suicidal back then. We have been married for nearly eight years now, and it feels like we have gone right back to the start. I am absolutely terrified, because I know that this is totally out of my hands, because I can either encourage her to eat, and have her leave, or ignore it and watch her waste away.

To add to things, Christmas will be being held at her family's this year, and I know that they'll really give her a hard time (They are the most 'gracious' people in the world, by a long shot). If there is anyone that she won't be able to hide it from, it will be them.

This is excruciating for me to watch. It is taking every bit of faith I have to not just fall in a heap. Couple that with a recent decision that we cannot stay at our church, in good conscience, and there are fears of isolation also. My prayer is (apart from the health of my wife being restored) that I can see the cross in all of this, and not just be swayed by the circumstances. Please keep us in your prayers.

Thanks in advance.:cry:

This is excruciating for me to watch. It is taking every bit of faith I have to not just fall in a heap.

Anorexia is a terrible thing. I remember a psyciatrist, who specializes in anorexia, share with me his own sense of helplessness. He said, "I have a whole ward up there of anorexics whom I am in charge of, and I can't do a thing for them.

That reminds me of a book which you may appreciate at this time:

"Shattered Dreams" by Larry Crabb

He subtitles his book: "God's unexpected pathway to joy"

He writes:
"Shattered dreams are never random. They are always a piece of a larger puzzle, a chapter in a larger story. The Holy Spirit uses the pain of shattered dreams to help us discover our desire for God, to help us begin dreaming the highest dream. They are ordained opportunities for the Spirit first to awaken, then to satisfy our hightest dream."

I find Larry Crabb to be a very insightful and encouraging writer.

Aaron, May you - even today - find genuine joy in the Lord - deep inside, underneath all the pain and tears. May KNOWING him be your deepest hunger, and may he satisfy you completely. He is all you have - that you can count on.

And he has dear Rach in the palm of his hand -the best place to leave her.

Hi CJaKfOrEsT...

Thank you for the continued updates. We are still praying for you and your family here in Texas (and Tennessee, Mexico, and Virginia). Be encouraged, brother. Many of us are sharing in this plight -- and we are hurting with you. The Lord is faithful.

:-)

Aaron,

How is your wife doing by now? I trust everything is going better....Have prayed for ya'll.

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
Aaron,

How is your wife doing by now? I trust everything is going better....Have prayed for ya'll.

ginnyrose

Thanks ginnyrose (and everyone else). Things have been relatively stable of late. Rach is back seeing her counsellor incidently is a huge fan of Larry Crabb. Her eating is still up and down, but she is open to considering that there is a problem, and is facing it.

We are in the process of leaving our church, and about to enbark on exploring a house church expression of fellowship. We have managed to leave on good terms, and currently still have the ears of the pastor and several leaders open to us. Of course there are many associated hurs involved, and I am looking forward to being able to move beyond these, and come into true fellowship with these people (currently there are many "program related" blockages, but it seems that already there is a more relaxed air around these people, now that there is no need to "preform" around us). We have known some people who worship at home, for a while (associated with Ben Isreal Fellowship) so we will initally lean on them somewhat, as we get used to not having the "system" around us.

I have long considered myself to be a missionary to counterfeigt converts, and there have been many in our church. Something that occured to me was how William Carey's wife commited suicide whilst they were out on the Indian mission field. I heard someone say that Carey went on his own, and then bowed to pressure to take her with him. This story made me think of how I subjected by wife to having to endure the kind of church that we have been attending.

It would seem that the Lord is requiring that I honour her, and respect her limitations by getting her out of this environment, so we can focus on seeking and saving the lost, without being hindered by filling our minds with unbiblical teaching and couterfeigt fellowship. Our walk with God and ministry has not been dependant on programs for quite a while, and in fact they have only served as hinderances.

Anyway, just thought I'd give an overview. We are getting back on track, and I know that this is the work of God. I am greatful that He has allowed me to cling to Him through all this, in spite of having "doubts" along the way. This experience has taught me so much about the differences between the "thoughts" and the "intents of the heart", and being preserved by allowing the "Word of God", which "quick and powerful, sharper than a two edged sword", to "divide (them) asunder".

Praise God for allowing excruciating circumstances to occur, so as to prove our faith. Thank you all for your prayers, they have been our lifeblood.

Hi Aaron,

My heart still goes out to you and Rachel. Let out a hint elsewhere here but am and have been having many of the same struggles or I should say my wife has for a number of years now. It is a toxic combination that mimics some of your present realities only to add an addiction into the mix. 'Anxiety' and now in recent days the same 'anorexia" ... In my case I am highly suspicious and have been for quite some time of the mixed and muddied world of psychology with that which is spiritual. A dear brother that we have not seen here in some time, a very astute and knowledgeable brother and a practicing psychologist at one time having a great deal to speak on these matters ... Difficult to go into it all here, it would not be of the constitution of extremes whereby some have gone off into cries of conspiracy or as far as the so called "Church" of Scientology, or Jehovah Witness's have gone, just muddled, muddy ... What I am driving at is in no way, by no means stating that there isn't any good practical help out there, nor those that know the Lord and understand human traits and biological difficulties are of no use, far from it. Just that even here, some of the advice is bothersome being based loosely on a 'case evidence' style of application taken from only scant facts not entire understandings of present circumstances. It is precisely where the whole of "How to's" falls on deaf ears ... have been living in these present circumstances with a broken heart and inward tears for a number of years. Weeping I understand, weeping with those who weep.

I am afraid sometimes the best and well intentioned things that can come from us are detrimental ... "spiritual speaking" is something I am recognizing is a false dichotomy and a measure of separation that is unwarranted. We who are being reconstituted need not make a distinction when there is not one. To go further into the bounds of what we suppose the Lord is doing or will do is the antithesis of faith, it is presumption far too often, of the same substance James made well mention of. The Lord is faithful indeed, but He is also faithful to His own directives and purposes, those that are often shaded from our eyes ...

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Prayers ongoing.

The matter of recovered memories in itself indicates where she is on the curve of healing, and she is a long way from being ready to testify. By 'a long way', I mean years. You should be looking at a timescale of 15 - 20 (yes, years), and be not surprised at anything which throws her into disarray

This is not so, you have absolutely no way of knowing one way or the other and to state as much is folly. That is just terrible, terrible presumption.

Unfortunately, it is through affliction we learn most about God....perhaps it is because we see how utterly incapable we are to order our lives. Even Job was doing everything right: God simply wanted to teach him and his friends a few things. Of course, the Scriptures is replete with incidences where people did not do the right thing and suffered for it. Either way, affliction, adversity, which we all detest, is sent our way - allowed by God - to bring us to where he wants us. In that we can praise him that he has not abandoned us! When we allow this to do its job, we come out the better for it. Praise His name!

ginnyrose

It has nothing to do with drawing swords nor being 'right', this was your statement;

By 'a long way', I mean years. You should be looking at a timescale of 15 - 20 (yes, years),

Some case history to back this up? And even then would you dare? Something applicable across the board? But it flows so effortlessly out as being 'realistic' ... It sounds more humanistic than anything, presumptuous and full of unbelief.

I am rendered speechless, are we serving and praying to the God of all creation or just managing to strike some peculiar balancing act between a human, natural, 'just in case' backup plan ...

It's absurd. Read back through James again about presumming..

You may go ahead and dodge the question but you put it forward in public.

You have no basis to make such an adacious claim and the gall to offer that up as some sort of advice or help.

Let your words redound in your own ears if you were in Aarons situation ...

Maybe you feel it is more helpful if I hold out hope that things will be 'all better' just round the corner, when nothing in my experience of God's love and grace has given me any such understanding........?

Don't put words in my mouth, you are greatly missing the point of your presumption, one way or the other. Your concern is less to do with ones difficulties with their spouse, mine included and more with your stinking opinion and conjecture.

What you or I or Aaron have been through or are going through are not equally divisble across the board into some neat equation with an attached timeline.

You do not know what you are talking about.

I am afraid sometimes the best and well intentioned things that can come from us are detrimental ... "spiritual speaking" is something I am recognizing is a false dichotomy and a measure of separation that is unwarranted. We who are being reconstituted need not make a distinction when there is not one. To go further into the bounds of what we suppose the Lord is doing or will do is the antithesis of faith, it is presumption far too often, of the same substance James made well mention of. The Lord is faithful indeed, but He is also faithful to His own directives and purposes, those that are often shaded from our eyes

Quite true indeed, brother Crsschk.

Speaking of..
From fine psychologists such as James Dobson to Larry Crabb and a whole host of other 'christian' psychologists in between, much of it, intentional or not, psychology has seemed to have crept into many Christian's spiritual thinking.

Recalling Martyn Lloyd-Jones had warned us few years ago not to be applying this sort of understanding to true Christian spirituality, wherewith troubles can easily creep in unaware. And offending God, if not careful. For one should not have to refer to pyschologists but the Word with fervent and contrite prayers in times of adversities or afflictions.

So often, we sound much like the friends of Job when we try to counsel others with such method ,based on human experience,human tradition and human merit, now, we add on human psycho analaysis, while we seem to speak 'rightly' of understanding man's trouble and man's behavior, most times, we speak erroneously of God's ways and God's thoughts ([color=0000CC]Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.)[/color]
in responding to those who are in need of God's Counsel, via Scripture and prayers.

Brother Aaron, I have and will pray with you, and allow me to share some of God's comfort and counsel from His precious Word here:

[color=0000CC]Psalm 34:17-19
The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.[/color]

While some of you men are encoutering women issues as you get older,:) I can offer you none other but this, we women need godly husbands' prayers and strength in Christ, a whole lot!!! For [i]we are[/i] the weaker vessels.

[color=0000CC]1 Peter 3:7
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them [b]according to knowledge[/b] (knowledge of God?) , giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.[/color]

Thank God,I have learned throughout the years, to seek counsel from the Word of our Father, daily, with all things, and most assuredly can testify to His Counsel as most relevant, wise, timely, and amazingly precious!

Let us remind ourselves that God is to be our Counsellor in all,

[color=0000CC]Psalm 33:11
The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Proverbs 8:14
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

Proverbs 19:21
There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.[/color]

In Christ

Dorcas, I know that there is a side of you that can relate to emotional suffering – and that is likely your better offering.

Here we have two examples of family suffering - amidst a setting of a variety of topics – most of which remain distant from the raw, wretched side of human existence. God knows, we all would do well to see and feel this side of life. (I’m sure there are more such cases on SI) Here we have our reality check. Nothing more readily shatters our tidy theological illusions than the broken parts that we can’t fix.

I say, if our theology leaves no room to walk with these people, then it should be tossed out. We must stand against (to borrow a favorite phrase) practices that leave family members hopelessly writhing in despair and exposed in shame. Too many churches (and relatives) are bad for that. They shoot the vulnerable, and only exacerbate the disorders.

I learned a lot through my own experiences with a depressed child (several years ago) Ex: in spite of the “murky” psychology and the slothful practices of many of our professionals, God can use any of it for his glory. We can trust him to guide the healing process.

A family therapist told me: "I work with the strengths in a family." I suspect that God does that too – in the sense that one’s ability to bend, adjust, learn, and submit is strength in itself.
The one most pliable is also most instrumental in the healing process.

On the other hand, we tend to focus on the weakest part, and believe that if THAT part would get fixed, then everything would be fine. But God may be refining the stronger memebers through the weaker ones. Also some are so unwell that they don’t have the inner resources to change their unhealthy patterns. For sure, God knows the situation better than we do.

It is quite possible that right now God has his eye primarily on the Aarons and the Mikes, and THEY need our diligent prayers.

Diane

Am not quite sure about this and perhaps that in itself is telling ...

Am not about to waffle on any of what I have spoken here and offer up only this bit of clarifying to my motivation and ire over this.

We may compare and contrast all we like, share what we have experienced in this spiritual life but it is adamantly not a 'one size fit's all' even if that itself is only being borrowed from. To draw off proscriptions by presumption is a great danger, a hidden, subtle pride that makes claims like that forwarded by Dorcas unadvised and grievous to those whose real time experience is ongoing. Such as is my case, such as may be Aaron's, but again, the comparisons stop at commonalities, the parameters and particulars cannot be anything other than guess work or attempts at climbing into others lives, their heads. These particulars are partial, dynamic and changing.

It is your words I have great reaction against and it is mine own that brought out such a violent rejection that I had to again look at. Mark me and address my words at any and all points if I do veer into the territory out-bounded by [i] Be ye angry, and sin not [/i]. I beg you all.

Generally speaking, whatever gain that may be know is derived from the great deal that is not known and not understood, it is highly tempered with that understanding and the ever present suspicion of the natural proclivities, opinions, commentary ... conjecture. It is going beyond the bounds of our understanding into remedies and assumptions leading to presumptions that waylay trust and faith, prayer, ... hope.

Part of my anger over this is that I live with the repercussions day after day after day. My wife who I love deeply despite everything is backslidden and even that is muddy, not in total. "For better or for worse" is a fixed, unmovable mandate that has been embraced wholeheartedly and the onslaughts from the natural as well as from the minions of the devil are not an exaggeration, the latter most often coming when there is great weakness, fatigue, both in body and mind. The times when the onslaught has been ... crushing and in weakness allowed the mind to wander ... It behooves me to stop there, the details are too personal, some things need to be kept between a soul and the Lord alone. What scripture states of and about marriage is enough of an explanation, all the intangibles, difficulties, honor ...

I have watched the same one who was the final exclamation of capitulating, launching this fool of a man to her then Masters feet reel backwards into another manipulation of the worlds ways, notions and mannerisms, the 'psychologist' nefarious 'advice' over so many perceived anxieties ... the band-aid of medication, another presumption of 'where the fault lies', it's fear, it's sin, it's not all of one thing only but as Aaron so accurately put it, "A toxic" cocktail. It's addiction and rebellion, a cry for deliverance at times overtaken by the strong desires of the lust of the flesh. It's television thinking to coin a phrase, the "How to" of the world.

From this mans standpoint it is mingled compassion at the point of heartbreak, a continued violence of the spirit that shreds and tears at the fabric of the soul and that almost daily. It [i]may[/i] well be in part any number of past experiences, things deeply hidden that are not forthcoming. Every viable and not so wisely chosen attempt has been attempted all of it fit only for the rubbish heap, worthless, vain, natural, human.

Only prayer, only patience and waiting, only God Himself can rectify the situation, in His timing, in His providence and that if He chooses to do so. I flatly refuse to presume anything even if I care deeply and it scars me eminently, inwardly, eternally. My hope is in Him, my trust, my faith, exactly as it ought to be, though it wavers, though I fail grievously.

The spiritual truth of,

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Does not negate the differences of our genders, I know as less about the difficulties of a woman in the spiritual life as one making pronouncements to a man attempting to walk upright against the onslaught of natural attraction, unruly passions, the daily self crucifixion in all it's makeup of circumstances and changes, challenges. There remains a fixed distinction. Add the heartbreak of lost love that once belonged to God to the equation and you get just a glimpse of my present reality.

Some of this is sideways to the point of my particular repulsion of presuming, it is experiential explanation of present particulars. Though I believe the Lord has intimated a certain... I hate some of this "Christian" vernacular that we ourselves have crafted, so I cannot use it here ... a certain verse that has been percolating, but despite that find it not unbelieving that I distrust my own perceptions of whether or not this fallen mind has mangled or manipulated it into a pleasant outcome, a very high possibility.

This is of the same substance that troubles and grieves this foolish soul over the whole 'prophetic' business of our day. It is full of notions and presumptions and is flatly dishonest at it's core. [i]All such boasting is [b]evil[/b][/i], how in the world have we missed this?

[i]Go to now, ye that say,

To day or to morrow
we will go into such a city,
and continue there a year,
and buy and sell,
and get gain:

Whereas ye know not

what shall be on the morrow.
For what is your life?
It is even a vapour,
that appeareth for a little time,
and then vanisheth away.

For that ye ought to say,

If the Lord will,
we shall live,
and do this,

or that.

But now ye rejoice in your boastings:
all such rejoicing is evil.[/i] (James 4:13-16)

This is not some clever word division here, may it be to see it again with new eyes and deep contemplation. We are greatly guilty on this exacting point ... it's [i]evil[/i] if we truly believe James and yet it is met with a shrug and a yawn throughout the world of Christendom and even those of us who think we have escaped the trappings of it all. God forbid! God forgive ...

Since I am so foolishly spewing here might as well continue and get this off my chest ...

Manipulation.

Am well fed up with this sort of nonsense. I experience it at work, I have heard it from those even here whose hearts I love in the Lord and it is widespread in countless measures and programs and all these other spiritless humanistic mangalations that carry our times under the guise of the reborn. It is either an 'easy belieivism' that paints pretty pictures of a wonderful life under Gods blue sky or a dishonest over exaggeration, [i]presumption[/i], of speaking, of "prophesying", "The Lord is ..." doing this , that or the other, it is over and above what is true, factual, scriptural (and that I do mean in the truest spiritual sense). What is it that sidelines the requirement of stark honesty that the Lord Jesus Himself has demanded of our very being? What and why is it so difficult to admit the true reality of "I do not know" when it is so prevalent in evidence?

There is far too much faking it, far less rightful contemplation and admittance of our own shenanigans, we are fooling no one, not the Lord, not the ones we say we would like to come to a true knowledge of the truth, only ourselves. We cry and bemoan everything under the sun, what is wrong with the "Church" and it is [i]wrong[/i], the apostasy of it that is well entrenched, so well that to attempt to strip it of it's fleshly attire is to cause quite the uproar of a disheveled, comfortable contentment. But is not [i]this[/i] our great problem and great sin?

Where is the God of Elijah and the Spirit thereof, forget the theological semantics for a moment ...

1Ki 17:24 And the woman said to Elijah, [u]Now by this I know[/u] that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

Because he brought her son back to life?

1Ki 17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

Presumption, accusation or question? Which is it that we jump to diabolical conclusions most often?

1Ki 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

Great pretenders or real guttural cries, the great profound simplicity contained in;

[b]O LORD my God, I pray thee[/b]

I do not know how I ended up here. Have no great conclusion on the whole matter. Have already over spoken myself. Am going beyond and unto things past me. It's reality, it's facts, it's sincerity with honesty. Real faith, real truth, real concern and compassion and hope and trust.

But presumption must die.

My apologies Aaron, pray for my wife as I pray for Rachel and yourself.

Brothers,

Through your sincerity and honesty, we emulate

Through your walk in life, we know we are not alone

Through your hurt, we hurt

No more presumption, brethren, only pray..

Regret ...

Something was still bothering me about this and though I knew it, justified it under the 'rule' of indignation another brother brought it up to face it again...

My opinion stinks just as well Dorcas. To be more honest there was the subtle 'intent to injure' underneath it even if my heart would cry for a reconsideration of the harm of such statements, not to Aaron or myself as much as to those who traverse these corridors.

It obviously struck a raw nerve, I still believe you are completely out of line. I do regret the stupidity of longevity (loquacity) of pounding away at this ...

Mike , a few comments seem directed this way, and indeed am aware both of having the bent to organize the messy stuff of life into an orderly mold, and also being on the receiving end of like-minded helpers. Frankly, I’m sick and tired of it all. And yet, how does one resist “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”, or misdirecting the anger?

There has always been a super-abundance of guidance, even from my youth; ex:“Be not unequally yoked”. But what if it doesn’t turn out that way? Or, “The family that prays together stays together”. But what if you can’t make it happen? Eventually one feels perpetually condemned by those who promised the good life.

Why didn’t anyone ever offer a plan B – for all those whose lives now don’t work properly? Here’s why, I think: Because no one believed that the “Christian” life wouldn’t work! And, so no one wanted to acknowledge the “blemishes”. Meanwhile a lot of shame went underground ,and a lot of sufferers now remain isolated. And the hope of the cross seems meaningless.

Mike, I don’t believe that your “rantings” are merely the footnotes of a life-script. They are the main theme. I’m grateful that you took the opportunity to “seize the platform” and speak your mind. Cross-gender sharing of any depth is fairly absent in our churches; never mind disclosing one’s frailty to the world. Here I see the smashing-down of some stifling social rules. PTL!

(Can you believe it, every time I mention my participation in a cyberspace church, I get skeptical looks: “But, it can’t possibly be the “real thing”…. If they only knew!! )

It seems like we know a lot about the bad stuff in the world - on a grand scale. Also, we know a lot about the Biblical ideal (on a grand scale). We dialogue freely about those two. However, in between, there is a huge muddy dark chasm – like a no-man’s land. And this is where we dwell. Job was most aware of it. He said, “He throws me into the mud.” Job 30:19

How’s that for inspired holy script - no footnote, indeed! In other words, our real unrefined thoughts are treasured by God because they are part of the refining process - and even may be worth sharing with the rest of humanity.

To be honest, Mike, after I read about your domestic situation, I lost the better part of a night’s sleep. I was angry. “Dear Lord, surely not yet another case among your people. It isn’t fair! This isn’t the way it is supposed to be! Why!”

I admit, lately, I’ve been more teary than usual, and rather sensitive to our human plight – beginning with my own family – a daughter in a painful marriage, etc, etc. There is a part of me that craves for many of us to unite someplace just to cry and cry and cry. And then cry some more. Nothing else.

Maybe I’m not altogether wrong. Maybe, God knows, a “releasing of it all” is just the thing needed. And just maybe he allows the crisis (throws us in the mud) in order to free us from our “I must remain cool, collected, and in control” guards.

I am adamant about this: the entire topic of revival is rather pointless if we can’t come down to the real heart – one person at a time.

I like this verse:

“But you O God, do see trouble and grief;
you consider it to take it in hand.” Ps. 10:14

Surely, tough circumstances are God’s uncanny ways of directing us to him. What can be more important?

Diane

This will certainly prove to be difficult and likely provoking, but for crying out loud ... the assumptions!

In all honesty sister, I would seriously have some healthy doubt's about whatever it is you think may be coming to you and attributing it to the Lord ... I will be as straight and forthcoming as possible.

I don't relate these to particular parts of what you said, but rather that it was healing for you to write out your anger as you did.

After my initial surprise had settled, I felt you had been complaining that I was not identifying with Aaron as you can, as a man - a husband - with an unhappy wife. I accept this completely. I can't and don't and was not attempting to. If this was part of the expectation you had in mind when reading my post, then it explains an aspect of your response. What I did say to him, though, and it was not the only faith-filled exhortion, was

The whole point was and is your presumption, not a series of counter exhortations to cancel things out. Where in all of this defending and assumings is an answer to the plain question of your presuming by time line, was this not quite plain?

I hate to sound trite, but it's the flesh which makes us want to sort out the natural situation by natural means.'

Hold that thought in suspension as it applies to the rest here.

As I've said above, I have been open to hear from the Lord as to whether I really was/am as 'out of line' as you feel, and the Lord has conveyed no confirmation of such, to me. If anything, as you initmated to us all and yourself at the start, I believe God has had a purpose to my sense of direction, and, to your reaction.

This is nonsense and it smacks of pride.

Today, on re-reading your long post again, I noted your concern that I had, perhaps, thought I was prophesying - except you couched it in such general terms against the confusion which passes in churches (over prophecy) today - that I'm just putting this out here for your comment in case I'm adding to your thought incorrectly.

To the unspoken question 'did I think I was prophesying?' I would answer, definitely not.

Stop. Please. The whole point of the matter is that you are doing exactly this. First, the insinuations, the drawing of 'inference'. The modern day 'prophet' is full of these same sort of notions that you already have brought right out in front here. "the Lord has conveyed no confirmation of such, to me". "I felt ..." Right on to;

As I've said above, I have been open to hear from the Lord as to whether I really was/am as 'out of line' as you feel, and the Lord has conveyed no confirmation of such, to me. If anything, as you initmated to us all and yourself at the start, I believe God has had a purpose to my sense of direction, and, to your reaction.

Did I think you were 'prophesying'? Are you kidding? Why must there be this turning of everything inside out and upside down ...

From the partial information which Aaron has given about Rachael, I was making a well-informed clinical judgement.

From the partial information which Aaron has given about Rachael, I was making a well-informed clinical judgement. You made mention of context, (or lack of it) and I'd say this is a point of agreement between us. I knew when I was writing in a hurry, that there was a lack of context to my statement. And yet, it was intended to be helpful, because there IS an end - a hope of full recovery - if Rachael is given what she needs, to recover. Also, the context is probably the size of a couple of books, so, this forum is not the place to expound it fully. I knew that much!

Another thing I picked up from your posts, was your inference that Rachael is backslidden. This I do not even slightly think nor agree in any measure. Such a redirection of energies is what I was subject to for most of ten years in an unhealthy spiritual setting. To be even clearer, the possibility Rachael is 'backslidden' had not crossed my mind till I found it in your post by implication. That thought had formed no part of what I meant when I posted.

Apart from your not knowing what I know, I have no idea how you can say I 'don't know what' I'm 'talking about', except it be based on misunderstanding. That's why I asked - not cynically, but genuinely - if you were operating in a spiritual gift, if you are able to say with such assurance, that your statement is much truer than mine?

Spiritual gift? Yes, grieving ... Over the audacity, over endless explanation and defending and assuming and presuming, over your obvious concerns for 'setting the record straight' rather than just repenting and now making this error even greater than it was at the first. Rubbish! Look where this whole thing has now gone to? No longer does it have much to do with the praying for Aaron and his dear wife and much more to talking around them by your prognosis and now my own dismantling of it ... Forget the niceties and the emotional and the being too hard, this needs to be brought to the light and dealt with.

But we all need hope, and I was I was giving it a grid of reference. I reject completely that this constituted 'unbelief', even if the realism of it offends you.

Malarkey. Again you wish to input thoughts and words into my head and lips. The realism is the fact of;

[i]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.[/i]
Rom 8:24,25

Your realism is nonsense and completely besides the point and to keep emphasizing it over and over again ... What is to you if it is 50 years when you have no clue one way or the other? To pronounce what you do not know is the very height of presumption, that which you must be brought down from.

It is ugly. I do not like it one bit.
And I cannot do this Neil.

We are not doing these things, writing out our thought's and intents, our advice or surmising, whatever they may be in a vacuum. It would be dishonest to go to a backroom when this has been put forth openly, publicly.

There is enough shame of my own to be exposed here that I will leave it. I cannot pretend one way or the other.

It would be an inference, this;

Harbor no ill will against sister Dorcas.

you don't take a woman to task and give her a cyber bashing on a CHRISTIAN discussion forum for the WHOLE WORLD to read.

I think this is how these things can get started and then run off on their own. It is to [i]play the man, not the ball[/i]. This is about words spoken (written) not a bashing, however ...

Better chosen words ... I don't know, possibly. Brother, I do appreciate your concern, I do hear what you are saying ... What of the content of the comments? Both, as it applies here.

Seems there is only one person who can respond back ultimately as they are directed to Dorcas as hers were to me. Do rebuke me for them as you ought, but please don't push this into areas of more assuming. I love Linn as much as all that come through these pages and perhaps even more so to express this much concern ... At the moment in all honesty, I don't 'feel' much of it, but she has been a great help to many at times but there is a serious concern that is the emphasis of all this. Wish to God I could have expressed it better, differently, without an 'offense' as it may appear.... But isn't that in itself something we struggle with, offense? I am not offended as much as appalled and ... afraid. Brother, I am afraid for us all, that we may well miss much in just sweeping things under the carpet or by going overboard in personal criticism. It's difficult to be honest it appears, even as much as I crave it ...

Mike, I have read all of the posts on this thread and I do agree with Neil. I think it would be wise to delete your post and apologize. It's one thing to disagree and share your throughts in love, its another when your words come off as an outburst of anger and as a personal attack on her. It's just not right.

There has always been a super-abundance of guidance, even from my youth; ex:“Be not unequally yoked”. But what if it doesn’t turn out that way? Or, “The family that prays together stays together”. But what if you can’t make it happen? Eventually one feels perpetually condemned by those who promised the good life.

Why didn’t anyone ever offer a plan B – for all those whose lives now don’t work properly? Here’s why, I think: Because no one believed that the “Christian” life wouldn’t work! And, so no one wanted to acknowledge the “blemishes”. Meanwhile a lot of shame went underground ,and a lot of sufferers now remain isolated. And the hope of the cross seems meaningless.

Diane, I have been meaning to respond back to this for a number of days now and got caught up in whatever it is I now find myself entangled in, a messy unfinished mix of thoughts and regrets ...

Because no one believed that the “Christian” life wouldn’t work!

Or is it one giant puzzle to be figured out?

Wonder.

The longer I have gone, the more sincere I attempt to press into this, the more soul searching honesty that seems to be to the point ... the more the wonder. It is beyond incredible.

Jesus is who He is just as believably actual and possible and factual that it should frighten us with awe and trembling because of what we are. The sheer fact that we, as ignorant and foolish and full of so much noise and confusion and contradiction and hypocrisy ... Could the greatest of any mind or all the collective wisdom of the history of the entire race ever conceivably come up with such a man? Well, we already believe this would be the retort. But do we recognize how tremendous this is? Even before we start down the path of the more superfluous and impossible to express reality that He ... sacrificed Himself for the likes of evil, rebellious creatures ... Why are we not destroyed? It has been a recurring theme of late, "Why Lord? Why do you put up with us?"

To be honest, Mike, after I read about your domestic situation, I lost the better part of a night’s sleep. I was angry. “Dear Lord, surely not yet another case among your people. It isn’t fair! This isn’t the way it is supposed to be! Why!”

Sister, thank you and thank you for your honesty. There is still the "why not?" of it all. Why the Lord, why do and speak and live and die as He did and be handed back over as it were to His own to be crucified ... My goodness, we can hardly stand a correction without coming apart at the seams. It is similar to the right answer to the question of why is there evil ... why is there any good?

How’s that for inspired holy script - no footnote, indeed! In other words, our real unrefined thoughts are treasured by God because they are part of the refining process - and even may be worth sharing with the rest of humanity.

Sorry, I inverted those two as the first seemed more analogous. I pray it is so, this sharing, if we might show forth honesty and what is really going on with this tremendous, wonder-full life. It is Pilgrims Progress is it not?

Best quit this rambling, thought you were really pressing into something here Diane, pray that it may get somehow back on track and of some help to Aaron and his dear wife and to praying, expectantly but not presumptuously, with true understanding of fear and trembling, that unmasking and peculiar sense of wanting to shrink into the bowels of the earth and simultaneously run to the Light.

Mike, your kind words are received with gratitude. I admit, this never crossed my mind:

why not?

Now, I’m going to generalize rather than direct any specific issue here:

Remember the Middle Ages when people thought the earth was flat? The church even excommunicated those radicals who suggested such outlandish presumptions about a round earth. It is no different today in the field of psychiatric maladies. This tends to be a dark and hidden domain. And so we have a hard time discerning between old-wives tales and truth. Really for the most part, the church does not have sufficient understanding from which to judge. This is tragic, and does no justice to God’s beautiful offer of New Life. Ignorance is not the same as faith. On the contrary, truth leads us towards Christ – especially the truth about our human natures.

God designed the world to be perfect – sinless, free from health troubles or emotional disorders. However, since the fall numerous divine laws (principles) have been violated, and so all of mankind experiences the fallout. No one is immune. It’s hard to pinpoint the sources of the maladies we encounter. You need to go back generations. You need to include society in general, as well as the church. You include such environmental issues as pollution, pesticides, etc. On it goes. No man is an island to himself. We can’t, nor need to understand all the nitty-gritties of that, other than to know that it is true (Ex. 20:5), and accept specific truths that God may reveal to us.

None of us are walking encyclopedias. We do not have all wisdom, and that is one reason why we seek God in prayer. But consider this: How long do you pray for the shedding of those extra 20 pounds or for better health, if you continue to eat the wrong food and live unhealthy life style. See where I’m going: Prayer is not merely an escape from truth, but a means of seeking it so that we can live it, and cooperate with our own healing process, and the healing of others.

We seek God for wisdom regarding those connected with us so that we can faciliate growth and healing and break free from our dysfunctional entrapments. And God can direct us, if we are willing to accept the truth when it arrives, as painful as it may be.

Of course God can heal. Yet God’s miracles are not a license to avoid obedience. Instead, they enable us to walk in obedience! Regardless of healings or not, we still must learn how to walk in obedience. We seek truth.

Many discover God’s truths, yet may themselves not be Christians. We would readily agree with that in the area of science and physiology. There is also a lot of valuable truth in the science of the mind: “psychology”. Sadly, many Christians scorn the entire discipline, failing to discern the helpful truth amidst all the humanistic rationale and slothful practitioners. These skepticisms might possibly be nothing less than a pious covering for: “I don’t want to know the truth about myself’ - just some figleaves.

I say, knowledge is a good guard against old wives tales. It is prudent to avail ourselves of the wisdom and insight that God may have given others. As I said earlier, the challenge is to learn how not to “throw the baby out with the bathwater”.

“…if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding, …
then you will understand the fear of the Lord,
and find the knowledge of God.
For the Lord gives wisdom,
and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.”
Prov. 2:3,4

Diane

Divinely instituted laws and principles don’t move aside in order to accommodate our wishful thinking and longings for utopia

Ah, that is tremendous, we are getting somewhere here ...

Ignorance is not the same as faith.

Precisely. And emoting is easier to deal with than to cut to the core of ... gnosticism and human reasonings, the effrontery that you noted here;

Many discover God’s truths, yet may themselves not be Christians. We would readily agree with that in the area of science and physiology. There is also a lot of valuable truth in the science of the mind: “psychology”. Sadly, many Christians scorn the entire discipline, failing to discern the helpful truth amidst all the humanistic rationale. These skepticisms might possibly be nothing less than a pious covering for: “I don’t want to know the truth about myself’

There is a kernel that I have forever been attempting to get at in this tenure here in this tremendous wonder that I can wholeheartedly embrace to make a real long sentence out of ... God help me here, you said it earlier sister;

(Can you believe it, every time I mention my participation in a cyberspace church, I get skeptical looks: “But, it can’t possibly be the “real thing”…. If they only knew!! )

It is so! But to the kernel ... This evasive something that is multifaceted, I am struggling mightily to express it still. Perhaps part of the reason for not just letting this all go and giving up on it is that it seems both hypocritical and destructive to start and then not finish .... Argh, that someone would straighten out myself and give better expression!

My anger and repulsion and longing to demolish so much of these notions must go beyond mere emoting or I am just besides myself for no good reason and in need of a flat rebuking. For God's sake do it! Brethren! I despise the pride that I despise when it rears it's ugly head elsewhere and am in no way not complicit, it is here in my own words staring back at me, it is mingled with indignation and I refuse to go defending that which is sin. Forgive me this error! Thus far the two comments are to eradicate this wholesale without any mention whatsoever to the content of the concern. It is the generalization of emoting and protecting our fragile condition over whether or not we do indeed error in our proscriptions and presumptions ... It is to jump to the conclusion without consideration, it is to assume much without question ...

Have we no passion for the truth, even if it causes us misunderstanding and pain? Causes us to look again, think again, challenge us ... Do we think so highly of ourselves and our opinions that we cannot take a rebuke? Can I? I know just enough of a fraction of what is hidden deep down in the bowels ... Was the Lord lying when he stated flatly;

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Has this been eradicated by the new birth? Another question for another posting.

I feel it is well worth the shame and embarrassment to allow even my poorly constructed words, the mingled indignation with the sinfulness upon re-reading some of my comments, they do the same thing that we are not allowing others to do here, be personal and cutting.

Forgive me Linn, honestly. Brethren, forgive me.

It is very difficult to get at the core without overdoing it, without misunderstanding motive. I am not in the slightest bit interested in justifying either myself or my conduct.

I am however afraid for us if we will not challenge our notions. This is the point of contention.

Having a measurable outcome to things not known, by experience, by inference, by assumption is shot through the church in our day. Pride and presumption. The antithesis of James. The polar opposite of what Jesus taught, lived and died in the most incredible paradox to ever strike this planet. The vast understanding of scripture is wrought with paradox is it not?

Suffering ... count it all joy?
Trials and temptations ... promised!

But we have a balm and an explanation for everything!

Our prophets are full of wind and noise and .... evidence? Where is it? Why do we not demand it? We have been misled and manipulated into a subtle gnosticism that speaks of how things "feel", the unchallenged thought that 'comes to us' is always "Of God". Our 'confirmations' are suspect, our defending dishonest. This peculiar pragmatism, relativism, humanism, naturalness, psychology, case study, injecting personal experience into "How to" books and programs ... The baby with the bathwater? Of course not. By God at least the dirty bathwater!

It is enough for now. Do forgive me.

For what it's worth there is even more of this foolishness carried over in mangled expression in;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13761&forum=35]About at my wits end here.[/url]

Mike, Wow! I see some striking parallels here between your present spiritual adventures and my own.

I admit, I have had a tendency to overreact to the use of certain terms and practises – simply because of the deplorable and offensive manners in which they have been used in my past experiences: ex “evangelism, prayer meetings, etc. My mind has difficulty disassociating past experience from present situtations. I realize that I have caused a few headaches and raised eyebrows among the brethren here. A recent rebuke from a concerned brother was much in order. And, as if that wasn’t enough, God has called me to study a course from the very Bible College towards which I have in the past proclaimed rather scathing denouncements. Indeed, I don’t deny its spiritual decline, but even as I am being blessed beyond measure, I am also humbled: God is going to use the very thing I have so freely railed against, in order to fulfill his purposes.

longing to demolish so much of these notions

You brought forth the issue of pride a few times. Of course this kind of thing has a uncanny way of boomeranging. Consider Naaman. “He was …highly regarded” 2 Kings 5:1 And then he got leprosy. How humiliating for this valiant military leader! He deserved an honorable cure. His course of treatment turned out to be most humiliating, in many ways. What! Dip into the muddy water… I mean, the Jordan? What an affront to his pride!

By God at least the dirty bathwater!

Diane, pray that it may get somehow back on track and of some help to Aaron and his dear wife and to praying,

Nothing new here!

Diane

Interesting goings on here...touching the humanity that we want to shake off once and for all.

Divinely instituted laws and principles don’t move aside in order to accommodate our wishful thinking and longings for utopia

Reading Oswald Chambers last week...He observed with deliberate irony...'We should never teach the things Jesus did as truth..." but instead always seek to Know Jesus himself as the truth. Now if we cannot teach even Jesus' history as some type of methodical principle and fixed set of laws to others...then why would we presume to canonize our own histories as truths for others?

That it is supposed to 'work'? The endless streams of "How To's", and be happy and ease and prosperity or the extreme opposite, dour, sour, legal, lawful, pridefu

For some stubborn reason we can't be satisfied with looking at Jesus...we want to look behind the face and hopefully discover the wheels , gears, and pulleys that make Jesus walk and talk so perfectly...hopefully we discover His patented mechanical secrets that will make our lives better too. We actually believe we can re-engineer ourselves.

If that's not bad enough...we think we can engineer each other.

No wonder such omnipotent beings see little use for prayer.

Modern Christian knowledge these days is really one long manifesto of self- reliance..."How to manage this, or how to set this straight, or how to kick-start revival..." Many Churches are spiritual Home Depots, with aisles of answers, complete with smiling greeters. The sword of the spirit is now a drill, hammer, and saw for the mind. (I saw a church advertisement yesterday which promised "relevant messages"...please....)

When the church was truly relevant there were men of God who marinated in the Holy Spirit for hours confessing thier irrelevancy to the real needs of mankind...declaring thier incompetence and naked helplessness...their fetal prayers unable to achieve any measure of self-reliance and mental health...indeed perhaps wondering if they themselves were insane for hurting so much, so irrationally, and never ""accomplishing" anything outwardly. Then some bystanders happen to observe these great men of God, how incidentally on the day of revival's birth they happen to walk on the left side of the street and so was published many books about denying the right side...

With this in mind, I've been really considering the merits of our new mind 'sciences". I'm frankly wary of psycology... True, we know now that the world is round and that it orbits the sun...but that does not make us astronomers. Likewise, knowing that the mind has biochemical and neurological components does not make us qualitifed to tinker, twist, calibrate, and rewire each other.

One long season of trial, or long night of prayer we were touched by God and soon begin to tell others "how to be touched as well"...inset tab A into slot B and turn counterclockwise. Repeat untill you are healthy wealthy and wise. We were there to witness the whole thing...and yet still didn't take accurate notes...God was only a component in our Rube Goldberg contraption....Maybe he was the boot that kicked us...or the bucket of water that woke us up...but still we imply that he was only a part of the mechanics.

So the thirsty soul is tricked into buying one more component in hopes of completing their own Goldberg contraption that will convey a glass of water, using bunson burners to startle a parrot that tips over bowling balls that wind up egg timers, that set off cuckoo clocks that wakes up a sleeping cat that runs on a treadmill that pulls a clothes line on a squeaky pulley...finally delivering a glass of water from one end of the room to the thirsty toungue. And the marketplace of devices has never been more bustling with activity. We have the humanistic Samaritans who are full of sincerity but really know little about God...and the religous Pharisees are filled with answers and seem to know everything abut God.

Yet, ultimately we Christians must stop our search for the "deus ex machina" and venture alone...away from all those who want to turn our cranks and adjust our souls...to be alone to worship God in spirit and truth.

And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.

Ah to be alone with God...not even to have our parts refurbished...but to be simply found with Him. If we mechanical tin men ever did get all our joints oiled and rust brushed off what then? Do we gyro about fixing others? What if God doesn't want us to motor about repairing everything we see? Perhaps if we could see how all our "relevant messages" are really just clanging metallic bionic applications that plate over a simple heart of flesh...we would lay down our monkey wrenches and dismantle our laboratories, and rebuild ancient altars once again.

Maybe we could rediscover the fellowship with Jesus that belonged to those ancient saints who lived in an age when the world was still flat. ;-)

MC

bartle wrote:
Lovingly, gently, and respectfully, I gotta ask: what has gotten into you?

(normally this would be a PM from me to you, but I've never seen you post like this)

you're an Elder here, like it or not. Now Lord knows, I'm not an elder here, nor have I escaped the sour taste of venom in my past postings, but holy smokes, that post you made to Dorcas should be a PM, you don't take a woman to task and give her a cyber bashing on a CHRISTIAN discussion forum for the WHOLE WORLD to read.

Neil,

While I understand why you have said what you have said, and that I have not read anything that was posted after this, there is no necessity for censorship here. One of the things that is incredibly awesome about the SI forums, is that things are only deleted in extremely rare circumstances. I can even remember having someone come in a post some highly slanderous information about Greg personally, and the only reason why it was locked was because people were jumping in to defend him, while he remained silent about the accusations. There is an integrity here that is rare in the body of Christ, which has been appealing, and most "instructory" to myself, and many others I have no doubt.

There is nothing wrong with the world seeing that things can get ugly within the Body of Christ, because the fact is that they can also see how we resolve our issues. I tend to agree with Dorcas, in part, regarding the importance of this thread, although I'm not sure about the reasoning. I have for a while struggled with the churches apparent "paranoia" regarding mental health issues (mind the pun ;-)). I have watched many people who are depression sufferers, and like who have sought treatment secretly, out of fear of how their "Christian brethren" would react if they know the truth.

Rach spent months fetal on our kitchen floor, while I was at work, because she was too afraid to take antidepressants, due to the perception of "believers". In fact, she sought out medication from a doctor, secretly from her previous counsellor, because she was of the type that thought that prayer alone would solve the problem. Fact is, if someone was suffering cancer, and they denied medical treatment, because they were "trusting God" to heal them, then we would consider them to be foolish, and yet depression takes more lives that cancer. Suicide is presently the ninth form of death in the US, with someone committing suicide every forty seconds, globally.

I believe that these events that my family have be exposed to, have been prophetic in a sense. It has led to our needing to confront a major issue within the fellowship that I have attended for my entire Christian walk, and has also prompted us to look at seeking and/or developing true Christian community, rather than just desiring it from afar as an idealistic pipe dream. I realise that this is generally not the done thing, but I am going to recommend a sermon for consideration, which is not by a speaker on SI. The name is Dr. E James Wilder and the sermon is called [url="http://www.lifemodel.org/audio/maturityJP.wma"]The maturity of Jesus and Paul: Cut off from his generation[/url]. Wilder describes himself as an "ordained minister and registered psychologist". The following is an except from his bio, on the Life Model website:

I was born to missionary parents in Colombia South America where I spent most of my life until age 16. I had a stroke with partial paralysis at age two following a severe illness. When I arrived in the United States to study I already had experience in home school, private school, correspondence school, public school and boarding school. I have been married to the same wife for thirty years and have several grandchildren. I have held jobs in over thirty different kinds of work before becoming a counselor more than twenty years ago. My hobbies are camping, backpacking, scuba diving, writing, photography, electronics, guitar and gardening. I love life, pain and all.

I ask only that you listen to this elder, and judge the words contained based on Scripture. If you find it unscriptural, then please post your observations, however personally I have found this to be edifying and an explanation of some lackingness (if there is such a word) in modern Christendom. I have long learned to be careful of being critical of something if you can't put anything in it's place, but when that something is found, then destruction of error must take place at a two to one ratio to the truth being presented (based on Jer 1:10). Much has been said about deficiencies in the leadership of the modern church. I honestly believe that after hearing this presentation, you'll begin to be able to articulate the qualities that you sense in the people that you would gladly accept as the "fathers of the faith" and eagerly accept them as the elders that we need. Oh, that we may see them in abundance.

What has this to do with what this thread has been and continues to be about? My hope and prayer is that this will be revealed as time goes on.

For those who have been joining with my family in our present struggle, I would like to say that we are progressing well. It was our last official service in the "fellowship" that we have attended for our entire married life and beyond. We are yet to have a clear direction to travel, but hope that the Lord will lead us to the right people, and lead them to us. Presently there are a lot of hurting people around us. I hope that some will arise who have "endured" and "overcome", to some degree, who can lead us, in the Lord. I guess on top of our continual progress, we pray that the pretenders will be exposed before they can cause too much damage.

Dear Aaron,

Continuing prayers brother.
And an apology as this all became something of contention due to my intrusion ... A number of pages back now and still have great issues with the notions, unfortunately the issuer got out of hand and overbearing, forgive me brother.

I have for a while struggled with the churches apparent "paranoia" regarding mental health issues (mind the pun ). I have watched many people who are depression sufferers, and like who have sought treatment secretly, out of fear of how their "Christian brethren" would react if they know the truth.

Agree, that tendencies to lump everything together would make concerns over mixing the spiritual with psychology something of an anathema, to be avoided wholesale ... MC spoke to this very well earlier.

Know of a saint here who is struggling with some issues of the mind and has been practically put through the ringer by a ministry that is supposed to be helping ... I was told that all the issues always come back to "Your sin".

Just as well, despite what I may have thought, Diane was correct earlier in how these things can have a rebound effect; I likely was injecting my own present circumstances into this more than I knew. My wife is seeing someone, but it is very infrequent, only when her prescription runs out. There is a 15 minute discussion and then a new prescription, have an obvious issue with this. Just as well she has yet to come clean about her addiction to them, a mention of it, a hint, yes, but not to the degree of coming clean about the full extent of it. Denial.

My contention was narrow, prior and won't rehash it all again. Just as well, I do not know that much about this whole area and it would be foolish to conject.

I have watched many people who are depression sufferers, and like who have sought treatment secretly, out of fear of how their "Christian brethren" would react if they know the truth.

Know of a saint here who is struggling with some issues of the mind and has been practically put through the ringer by a ministry that is supposed to be helping ... I was told that all the issues always come back to "Your sin".

Blessings brethren,

Today in the church we cannot even agree whether the spirit is separate from the soul...or how the mind is separate from the soul...still, inspite of these spiritual and scientific mysteries, we can trust that the inner man can be renewed by the Holy Spirit. If we think this is trite it's because we have made it so. I do not believe Paul meant it as the get-well greeting card text we have often reduced it to.

How the Holy Spirit renews the inner man is another thread I suppose. Certainly it must be recognized that some of us have been greatly helped from clinical fields of study. But not all of us...

In the end I suppose my references to Rube Goldberg contraptions was poking at how we are prone to canonize our own historical sequence of events, and to recreate this contraption... to force this template over the lives of others. (edit: In my opinion, we would do more good to fix our eyes on Christ and not the various components of our salvation and healings.)

I am also mindful that if the Holy Spirit does 'practice psycology", then he was doing it thousands of years before the pyscologists. I'm jesting here of course...but my point is that we never sell the idea that unless this doctor heals us, God is out of options.

Even Larry Crabb has backed away from his younger insistence on the supremacy of 'professional clinical' help. He says he has seen much more lasting good come from committed members of the body ministering to one another then from his own 'sessions. Let's at least be honest...most people do not seek clinical help because thier loving spirit-led church families have embraced them, supported them in their vunerable state, and have ultimately failed despite their best efforts. On the contrary, much of the growth of professional counseling as an industry is partly because modern people...including church members, are detached and unconcerned with one another. In other words...we don't want to know about each others sexual struggles, or drug addictions, or mental illnesses, or personality puzzles...we don't even wish to know that these issues exist in each other.

There is nothing wrong with the world seeing that things can get ugly within the Body of Christ

For this reason Aaron I marvel at your faith to share in this forum. I also appreciate the real interest shown by others, a ready zeal to defend and honor the dignity of those who are vunerable in the body...as well as a compassion to provide assistance.

I just hope, that in our zeal to see the lame walk again, we don't cripple each other in the process! :-P

Blessings brethren...and continuing to pray for the precious needs mentioned in this thread.

MC

MC: That Goldburg contraption – my, my! I couldn’t help laughing. You made your point! I sure do not wish to scratch your literary masterpiece. However, I will hang a complimentary picture beside it. You’ll see...

The temptation to use our marvelous “bells and whistles” to play God is nothing new, is it? After all, we did take a bite from Eden’s “apple” in the hope that we could “be as gods” (be God). It’s in our natural bent to play God.

But the poison is subtle. It touches the same coin on both sides of (worldliness and conservatism) Consider this form of insidious presumption: “ Don’t listen to advice (except mine). Just trust God, throw out the pills, don’t go to the doctor. If you use those “worldly” measures you don’t have faith. And that’s sin! ”

I say, who are we to dispense this “pious-looking prescription” anyway. We are not God!!!!

It is so easy to prey on the vulnerable and the “crazy” ones. We so easily play the shrink, and take a wild crack at running their lives (as MC so well articulated). And these people are too weak to knock us down a measure or two. Frankly it is none of our business to tell a depressed person to stop taking his meds, or even tell a disgruntled church-goer to leave his church, or tell a frustrated student to get a job. True, it may have been the right thing for us, but it is not a universal prescription, and we are not experts on someone else’s life.

What if God doesn't want us to motor about repairing everything we see?

A caution: Our enormous stock pile of human devices can become so annoyingly idolatrous that we are tempted to knee-jerk right back into the Dark Ages, and denounce it all. That is soooo anti-Christian! Consider what great benefits have been developed for human kind – as a direct product of Christian love for God. I think of those dedicated, persevering Scots who merely a few generations ago brought about many social reforms that we now enjoy – public education, medicine, books, etc etc (Praise God for them Presbyterians!)

For the most part, our advice/self-help books are merely cogs in Compton’s Goldburg contraption. But, wait … One day, some years ago, I purchased a book called, “How to Help a Friend”. I had barely got a third through it and I received a call from a desperate husband. Her wife was in a panic state, and hyperventilating. My goodness! That was just what I had read about. PTL!!!! I dashed over there and applied what I had just learned. Basically, I just put my hand on hers, and drew here back into the present. That was mainly it! God had prepared me for my work that day. By the way, in that moment of crisis, telling her to trust God and just pray wasn’t going to do much good. (Mind you, it did come into play later.)

Friends, our society has a festering wound. Just today I sat beside a pharmacist at a dinner, and asked her. “ What is the most common drug you dispense?” She said: Antidepressants, anti-anxiety pills, and the like.

We can’t merely tell these ailing people to “just pray and trust God”. They may not be able to. Maybe it is WE who should be praying, and seeking wisdom from God, on their behalf. And he can show us how best to offer a practical “cup of water” – which might possibly look ridiculous (or presumptuous) to an onlooker. (Remember Naaman?)

I’d say that, all in all, empathy is needed, far more than anything – just plain good-old “bed-side” manner. It seems that those who tend to offer the finest dose of it, are the ones who have been there, aren’t afraid to admit it, and have received God’s comfort in it. (2 Cor. 1:3,4)

So what parts of the “machine” do we throw out, and what parts to use? Really, almost any part could become idolatrous and any part could be truly helpful. I’d say, the trouble is not in these playtoys and tools, as much as our belief about them.

That brings me to the picture I promised:

MC, I’d like to call your busy, gaudy-lookng Goldburg picture: “Playing God” and put one up beside it called “Trusting God” . Maybe mine could be a calm scene - sheep resting in green pastures beside quiet waters.

How we involve ourselves in the lives of fellow man depends not on our devices, but on which picture we step from.

Diane

Scots who merely a few generations ago brought about many social reforms that we now enjoy – public education, medicine, books, etc etc (Praise God for them Presbyterians!)

I knew there was something I liked about them Scots!

We can’t merely tell these ailing people to “just pray and trust God”. They may not be able to. Maybe it is WE who should be praying, and seeking wisdom from God, on their behalf. And he can show us how best to offer a practical “cup of water” –

Edit: This is the way I see it as well.

MC, I’d like to call your busy, gaudy-lookng Goldburg picture: “Playing God” and put one up beside it called “Trusting God” . Maybe mine could be a calm scene - sheep resting in green pastures beside quiet waters.

Diane, I like your painting much better. And by the way, let me take a second to observe how much class you always seem to have in sensitive discussions.

MC

I say, who are we to dispense this “pious-looking prescription” anyway. We are not God!!!!

We can’t merely tell these ailing people to “just pray and trust God”. They may not be able to. Maybe it is WE who should be praying, and seeking wisdom from God, on their behalf. And he can show us how best to offer a practical “cup of water” – which might possibly look ridiculous (or presumptuous) to an onlooker. (Remember Naaman?)

I am a nurse and one of the fundamentals we were taught in training was that when tending an injury don't ask the patient to support his own injured limb. In other words, when binding up a wounded arm the nurse should bear the weight of the arm while she is tending to it.

You are right roadsign and this issue I have been watching in this thread is one that is near and dear to my heart. Christians can be the worst when it comes to tending to the hurts of those who suffer from or by mental health issues.

This is my job, working with people and their families who have to deal with this kind of "injury". There is so much ignorance about this subject and thus the heavy handed stigma not only from family and society but much worse, the church.

And yet it is the church that can be the nurses.

We have a cyber prayer and fasting group that focuses solely on people and their families struggling with mental health issues and I can gladly say that persevering prayer "bearing the weight of the injured limb" does make a huge difference. A gradual improvement but real and some have even begun to bear the weight of their healing "limb" themselves.

Prayer works but Roadsign is right...it is We that should be praying.

It is the church who should be the nurses bearing the weight ourselves as we bind the wounds with persevering prayer until healing comes.

It is the church who should be the nurses bearing the weight ourselves as we bind the wounds with persevering prayer until healing comes.

Please hear what I am not saying
Charles C. Finn

Please hear what I am not saying.
Don't be fooled by me.
Don't be fooled by the face I wear.
For I wear a thousand masks
that I'm afraid to take off,
And none of them are me!

Pretending is an art that's second nature with me.
Don't be fooled…..
I give the impression that I'm secure,
that all is sunny and unruffled with me.
Within as well as without,
Confidence is my name
Coolness is my game.
The water is calm and I'm in command.
I need no one.

Don't believe me…please.

My surface may seem smooth,
but my surface is a mask.

Beneath this lies no complacence.
Beneath dwells the real me in confusion,
in fear and alone.

But I hide this; I don't want anyone to know it.
I panic at the thought of my weaknesses and
fears being exposed.
A nonchalant, sophisticated façade
to help me pretend
To shield me from the glance that knows.
But…such a glance could lead to my salvation…
That is, if it is followed by acceptance,
if followed by love.
Love is that only thing that will assure me
of what I can't assure myself
…I am worth something!

But I won't tell you this.
I don't dare.
I am afraid to.
Perhaps your glance will not be followed
by acceptance and love.
I'm afraid that you'd think less of me,
that you'd laugh at me.
Your laugh…would kill me.
I'm afraid that deep down I'm 'nothing',
that I'm 'no good'

So, I play my game, my desperate game.
With a façade of assurance without,
and a trembling child within,
My life is a parade of masks, a front.

I chatter to you in the swave tones of surface talk.
I tell you everything that is really nothing,
And nothing of what is really everything,
Nothing of what is crying within me.
So, do not be fooled by what I am saying.

Please listen carefully;
try to hear what I'm not saying,
What I'd like to be able to say,
what I need to say,
but can't!

I do dislike the superficial,
phony game I'm playing.
I'd like to be genuine and spontaneously 'me',
but I need help.

Hold out your hand
even if it's the last thing I seem to want.
Each time you are kind,
and gentle, and encouraging,
Each time you try to understand
because you really care
My heart begins to grow wings,
Very small, feeble wings-
but wings that will one day help me to soar
on the wings of your encouragement.
You are so important to me.
You can help me to break down the wall
behind which I tremble.
You can help me to remove my mask.
You can help me to be released
from my shadowy world of panic,
uncertainty and loneliness.
It will not be easy for you,
My walls are strong,
But I am told that love is stronger than any wall.

Perhaps you could build a bridge to my heart
and Jesus could cross over into my life.

You may wonder who I am,
You know me well
I am every man and woman you meet.

Saints,

Diane, KD and MC, bless you, thank you ... a far better expression thoroughly.

[i]Weeping with those who weep[/i]

Hi kdbutton...

I am a nurse and one of the fundamentals we were taught in training was that when tending an injury don't ask the patient to support his own injured limb. In other words, when binding up a wounded arm the nurse should bear the weight of the arm while she is tending to it.

You are right roadsign and this issue I have been watching in this thread is one that is near and dear to my heart. Christians can be the worst when it comes to tending to the hurts of those who suffer from or by mental health issues.

This is my job, working with people and their families who have to deal with this kind of "injury". There is so much ignorance about this subject and thus the heavy handed stigma not only from family and society but much worse, the church.

And yet it is the church that can be the nurses.

We have a cyber prayer and fasting group that focuses solely on people and their families struggling with mental health issues and I can gladly say that persevering prayer "bearing the weight of the injured limb" does make a huge difference. A gradual improvement but real and some have even begun to bear the weight of their healing "limb" themselves.

Prayer works but Roadsign is right...it is We that should be praying.

It is the church who should be the nurses bearing the weight ourselves as we bind the wounds with persevering prayer until healing comes.

How often have we "injured" the Lord (or others) with our words, attitudes or actions? We offer well-meaning "friendly fire" to other believers because of an offense. When we in turn are injured -- the Lord is always there to take us back into His arms, comfort us, and bind our wounds. We would be Christ-like to do the same.

Thank you for sharing this analogy (from nursing). I found it very encouraging! There are so many individuals that are injured or ignored by fellow believers. The solution is to simply know the heartbeat of our Lord. He desires that no one will fall away -- but that all will come to repentence.

:-)

BTW, I enjoyed the article by Brother Finn. I have often been misunderstood by my words (whether written or spoken). It certainly shows the fallacy within my own communication skills. It is a shame that we cannot get into the hearts of other believers and know the [i]essence[/i] of what they are saying, rather than what is merely our [i]perception[/i]. I think that this would save us from much offense. It is so exciting to be part of an online fellowship where individuals desperately hunger for a more intimate relationship with the Lord. We may not always see eye-to-eye, but we are all seeking His face.

I was reminded of the parable that Jesus told us about the good Samaritan. This Samaritan bound up the wounds of a man when others ignored him. Too often, we simply walk by and try to ignore those with "injuries" in the Church. It seems that many believers explain such injuries as the result of "reaping what they've sown." This is not the attitude of a heart that understands the grace of God. God does NOT give us what we deserve.

Hi CCC, You also reminded me of something when you mentioned the Good Samaritan and understanding the [b]grace of God[/b] in the same paragraph.

Years ago I wanted to "sign" a bible passage and in doing so from my "Joy of Signing" book (pg 73) I learned that the sign for [b]"gracious"[/b] looks like the binding up of a wounded arm.

[i]"The right open hand is placed over the heart and is then moved up-out-in-up around the left hand open hand which faces the body pointing to the right.Origin: as if winding a bandage around the arm"[/i]

"The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be [b]gracious[/b] unto thee:The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace." Numbers 6:24-26

Oh the sweetness of His amazing grace! Just speaking this verse again I can feel the balm of our Gracious God pouring over me head to toe, may all those including moderator Mike and his wife know the comfort of this same grace and healing. KDB

Compton wrote:
Let's at least be honest...most people do not seek clinical help because thier loving spirit-led church families have embraced them, supported them in their vunerable state, and have ultimately failed despite their best efforts. On the contrary, much of the growth of professional counseling as an industry is partly because modern people...including church members, are detached and unconcerned with one another. In other words...we don't want to know about each others sexual struggles, or drug addictions, or mental illnesses, or personality puzzles...we don't even wish to know that these issues exist in each other.

Currently, I am running with "invisible" as I have found "elders", and have fellowship, and yet we don't where the same "denominational name tags" and often are located in the same state or country. Rach had a counsellor who understood little about "things practical" and took a "super spiritual" approach to things. She would have Rach imagining traumatic events, and get her to "ask Jesus into the situation". After this she would say, "What's he doing?" Often Rach wouldn't answer, but she would be thinking, "Why won't he get me out of it?"

Have been watching a Wilder DVD series, where he said that many counsellors make the mistake of causing people to avoid feeling "hopeless despair", by trying to reassure them that "everything will be alright". In order to explain this, Wilder defines what he is calling "hopeless despair" as the feeling that "I don't have enough time and/or resources available to get done what I [b]need[/b] to do." What he suggested as an alternative to this avoidance, was to come into that despair with them, and help the patient accept their inability and Christ's corresponding ability. Any reader of Chambers would recognise this concept, because he wrote of this often. In fact, Ray Comfort's "Biblical Evangelism" model is based on this concept. In not leading people into their despair, and showing them that it is not as scary as they thought, from the perspective of looking in from the outside, these "well meaning" counselors have actually blocked people from experiencing "true biblical faith".

These kind of "professional counsellors" give all the others a bad name, because they refuse to address the real issue, which is the inability to "see God" as a result of having an "impure heart" (Mat 5:8). Where the "professional counsellor" comes in, is a similar place where the "prophet" comes in. Tozer defined a prophet as a "crisis man" in the preface to Ravenhill's "Why Revival Tarries". The counsellor is the one who can lead the church into the "first love" that they have "left". When the church has returned to this "first love", the counsellor is no longer needed, however now they can fill the role of "eldership", and if they can't, then they shouldn't have been counsellors in the first place.

I get the feeling that this thread is about at the point that it can spill into the more doctrinal portions of the forum, but I tend not to do so just yet, because there is real life tragedy occurring that illustrates the current shift in topic, and I feel that it shouldn't be separated...at least not yet. There are some real issues to be face, with practical solutions, and there are others that can be resolved by nothing but prayer alone. Jesus made it clear through his life and teaching that we are to "Love the Lord your God with all of (our) heart, mind, soul and strength" but also to "love one another" with similar love. He called us to resolve our issues with one another, before resolving them with God. James made it clear that prayer without practical expressions of love, does not display what God calls faith, whether we do or not.

Community and faith. Solitude and faith. Both are required, and as Bonhoeffer taught in "Life Together", both show us how to do the other. Remove one element, and the whole thing falls over. However, community can be imitated, and the imitation can be toxic if the real is nonexistent. This I have seen through Rach's life, of late, while I have been capable of being "internally stable" even through suffering extremes in emotional volatility, and circumstantial events (and they just keep coming...my job is currently up in the air, also).

The past twelve months have consisted in a personal unlearning and relearning of what "faith" truly is. Ironically, my current "sojourn of faith", was greatly influenced by an American brother who was, at the time an "out of church" Christian. We used the playfully mock each other, me about his "rebellion" and him about my "religiousness". We made contact recently, after nearly six months of silence, and he has found a "church" to attend, while I am leaving the "system". Ironies abound, all through this episode of my life, and I believe that the Lord allows them in order to retain a degree of sanity as I find myself amused about them.

I just hope, that in our zeal to see the lame walk again, we don't cripple each other in the process! :-P

Ahhh...c'mon MC, if a "limp" was good enough for Jacob, them why not us, as we "wrestle" with one another.:-P

kdbutton wrote:
I am a nurse and one of the fundamentals we were taught in training was that when tending an injury don't ask the patient to support his own injured limb. In other words, when binding up a wounded arm the nurse should bear the weight of the arm while she is tending to it.
....
Prayer works but Roadsign is right...it is We that should be praying.

It is the church who should be the nurses bearing the weight ourselves as we bind the wounds with persevering prayer until healing comes.

Hey, hang on a minute!!! This sounds a bit like "Bearing one another's burdens". Could be a case of plagiarism here;-).

On a serious note, I love this. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

Hey, hang on a minute!!! This sounds a bit like "Bearing one another's burdens". Could be a case of plagiarism here ;-)

CJak,

Open wide and say AHHHHHHH! This nurse will give all glory to God along with you! :-)

AHHHHHH behold the Great Physician, all glory and praise to Him!!!

You are able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we should ask or think and we ask You for healing.

Thank you Lord for your gracious compassion on us all. Renew your church in the spirit of our minds (Eph 4:23) Heal your church Lord and we will be healed!

In Jesus' Name!

Hi All,

Rach has just taken another overdose. Basically stress regarding Christmas (I could not talk her into staying home, because of the kind of guilt that runs through their family) got to her, and then some choice words from a family member pushed her over the edge.

Please pray for us. I know that the Lord has her in His hands, but I also know that my tendency is one of insensitive comments, and I am prone to anger (oh, for a "backspace" button that works on audio conversations. Perhaps I would sound as articulate, as I do here, in real life).

Before the impulsive advisory comments come, allow me to footnote with my own understanding. I know that this isn't my, her or her family member's fault. I know that anger isn't constructive. I know that the Lord is in control.

I also know that the most important thing in this life is "reality". Hence my openness in this thread, in particular. I am and have calling for extraordinary prayer from people who have been reading this thread, knowing that I am not one prone to this kind of prayer, myself. There is no point pretending in something like this, as God distinguishes His own as those who "love the light" and "cometh into to the, that there deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God". Honesty beings at the point that one admits his dishonesty.

God, make me one who knows the truth in the inner parts.

Thanks in advance.

I will add my prayers to others here.

knowing that I am not one prone to this kind of prayer, myself. There is no point pretending in something like this, as God distinguishes His own as those who "love the light" and "cometh into to the, that there deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God".

I was shared this hymn verse last night, and thought it expresses some of that 'reality' you take note of..

"Eternal Light! eternal Light!
How pure the soul must be
When, placed within Thy searching sight,
It shrinks not, but with calm delight
Can live, and look on Thee!

The angels that surround Thy throne
can bear the burning bliss;
But that is surely theirs alone,
Since they have never, never known
A fallen world like this.

O Lord prepare us for the sight
Of holiness above;
So the sons of ignorance and night,
May dwell in the eternal Light,
Through the eternal Love."

Just an encourgement...if we tremble because we believe in the purity of God then is that not faith enough to pray? Only let's believe all of the reality and not just a piece of it, having faith also in the purity of His love that heals the backslider.

“I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely..."

Blessings brother,

MC

Brother ...

This tears at the fabric,
Extraordinary prayer it is and will be ...

MC, that verse ... It is what I had been holding back ... as well as holding on to.

Hi CJaKfOrEsT...

Thank you for the update. I will continue praying for her and your family.

:-)

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Rach has just taken another overdose. Basically stress regarding Christmas (I could not talk her into staying home, because of the kind of guilt that runs through their family) got to her...

I thought I had better give an update, now that the dust has settled somewhat:cry:. Rach spent the Saturday night in hospital, as she had emptied a box of her medication. It was purely a miracle that she survived, because she had driven into the country, after sending me and the children off to see a movie, to "give her some space". The only reason that she was found, was because she became groggy, and rang her counsellor to say goodbye. I'm still unsure as to how they found her, but the police were involved, and she had to be given breathing assistance to keep her alive.

We had her home the next day (Christmas Eve) and I had already decided not to attend her family gathering. Don't get me wrong, her family are really good people, but there is so much hurt flowing around, over a multitude of small issues that they all compound to become a major issue. Her family didn't take it very well (especially her father) and so I'm not exactly the "number one in-law" at the moment. We had a quiet day, with my family and things were nice, albeit not the kind of highly exciting affair that her family would put on, but there was enough love to go around.

Things are far from okay, however, as Rach has been very detached lately and keeping herself busy (which is her way of avoiding things). The Psych department at the hospital wanted to admit her into a psych ward, but admitted that in light of her history, that could be catastrophic. Thankfully, I have just begun two weeks of annual leave, so I can be around to support her. The thing is, she doesn't think that it was serious, and is disappointed that she was found in time. In her mind, it couldn't be serious, because she didn't succeed. The Psychiatrist from the hospital took great pains to make her see that this was very serious, and that she would have to be involuntarily admitted to hospital if she made another attempt. But it had fallen on deaf ears.

Thank you for your continued prayers. I believe that it is purely the faith of the saints in our Holy God that has kept her alive this long. My prayer is that she will "hit rock bottom" soon, and stay there until God will pick her up, because I fear that she still "has some fight left in her".

God alone has the answers for her, and yet she will not hear me, when it comes to anything theological in any form. This is because she had to endure my two years of re-evaluating everything that I had ever learned about God, in order to come into the truth, and endure it from the inside. Hence she is wary of embracing anything that I have to say, because she is not convinced that I won't change my mind again next week:cry:.

I told her on the way home Christmas night, that I'm torn between feeling hurt and grateful about everything that has happened of late, because it leaves me feeling powerless, and yet I know that this is the only way to true faith. This sums up where I'm at. Pray that my patience will hold up, just a little bit longer.

Thanks in advance.

Judges 16:28a And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, REMEMBER ME, I pray thee, and strengthen me,

1 Samuel 1:11 11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and REMEMBER ME,

Luke 23:42-43 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, REMEMBER ME when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I remember finding myself in times when I did not know what to pray. My words were gone….Yet, the Spirit of God spoke these words so clear ,”REMEMBER ME” Somehow the Lord was pressing me to cry out remember me to him in my midnight hour. I cried out to the Lord these two words and friend somehow I seen the miraculous happen before my eyes. I do not preach formulas, but a heart that yearns for God, God will move on your behalf.

Cry this from your heart, I cried out to God and he remembered me and GOD WILL REMEMBER YOU.

If you look in these verses you will notice God moved in a mighty way, in fact, whenever you see the saints cry this prayer to God, HE MOVED IN A MIGHTY WAY.

I’ll be praying for you,

Josh

Sorry if I got a little preachy

Aaron, brother...

My heart weeps with you. Christmas was beautiful and bittersweet, you and Rachel where often on my mind and in my prayers, knowing yours may not be have been of the same .. peace? My mom is also on the other low end of the battle with cancer, very weak, another MRI upcoming... A part of me would flee to privacy here and yet your open transparency and forthcoming compels me otherwise.

Brother,

God alone has the answers for her, and yet she will not hear me, when it comes to anything theological in any form. This is because she had to endure my two years of re-evaluating everything that I had ever learned about God, in order to come into the truth, and endure it from the inside. Hence she is wary of embracing anything that I have to say, because she is not convinced that I won't change my mind again next week

I guess what I am painstakingly attempting to get out is brother, we have to show them this, live it before they will believe what our words could far often better convey, at least from our perspective, at least as we might want to think.

"For better or for worse", has been a underlying thought and it is the later for us in this moment I guess, not to overstress it, I do not think it a reach that either of us has any other notion than trusting the Lord right on through, that this is a fixed understanding concerning our spouses, it is accepted, embraced even. I am looking for the moment to tell her once again that I do not know it all, that I am fast learning that I do not need to know everything and that the further on I go, the more it opens into even more complexity of understanding, that, that in itself is not a contradiction and therefore means everything has become confused and muddled, but the opposite, a more sober understanding and confidence that it is meant to be this way and that confidence grows into more and greater trust in the Lord, a slow contentment and purer faith, a humbled faith if I may. Showing trust in the Lord, perhaps that is it brother, even quietly, silently .. to be able to say "I understand" and be that in evidence.

Brother I did some rather strange things this Christmas, even against my more 'rational, principled, spiritual' understandings, you know the well thought out and worked through perspectives, handling the finances correctly ... Chucked it all to the wind and went extravagant, it seemed right in the Lords sight .. it bought nothing in way of expected returns if you will, that wasn't it. Just an outpouring, it bypasses all the 'materialistic' aspects of 'what' or the usual or normal ways the world might think or even some of our own brethren would see as a ... "Why was this perfume not sold for ..."? kind of idea. Goodness why this compulsion to qualify everything, explain it all when I can't even grasp it?

Brother our situations are as dissimilar as what they may have in common. Glean what may be gleaned, I only know this much with a certainty, to just trust and listen, do whatever it is He tells you. Pray I might keep on this line of thought that I believe is the Lords leading, I know too well my tendency to fall off. I will be praying fervently for you and Rachel brother ... give her your heart.

It's funny you know, I was only thinking yesterday that I should put up a progress report.

Rach had been going well, to a point, and had been opening up somewhat. And then today she got angry and drove off.

I don't know where she is. I hope she is okay. Her counselor hasn't heard from her, and Rach isn't answering her phone.

I find myself increasingly coming to the end of myself.

Please pray.

I find myself increasingly coming to the end of myself.

Job 30:31 My lyre is turned to mourning, and my pipe to the voice of those who weep.

I find myself increasingly coming to the end of myself.

Reading these words stirs my spirit, as if sensing a promise of hope.

Sing, O barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor,
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.” Is. 54:1

It seems most insensitive to suggest one “sing” in the face of utter despair. And yet, how many times has God fulfilled his covenant promises when all signs of hope had vanished. God’s “child” is never brought forth out of natural means, that is, what is visible and expected.

What is this miracle “child” that God is bringing to birth in this hopeless situation?

When the morning falls on the farthest hill,
I will sing his name, I will praise him still.

When the dark trials come and my heart is filled
with the weight of doubt, I will praise him still.

For the Lord our God, he is strong to save
from the arms of death from the deepest grave.

And he gave us life in his perfect will;
And by his good grace I will praise him still.

Based on Ps. 42, Words and music by Fernando Ortega

Diane

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Rach had been going well, to a point, and had been opening up somewhat. And then today she got angry and drove off.

I don't know where she is. I hope she is okay. Her counselor hasn't heard from her, and Rach isn't answering her phone.

Rach came back that night, but has gone again last night. I have not heard from her since 10pm AEDT, but I know that she came home about 9am this morning. She took some medication with her, which could be good, and could be bad, because she only has 7 tablets with her (I have been rationing them out since Christmas), so I don't think she has enough to overdose fatally. But it could be good, because it might be that she is just taking responsibility for her condition. In the past, she has left her medication behind, and it has resulted in catastrophic effects.

However, since I have no idea about her movements over the past 9-10 hours, and she won't respond to any of my attempts to contact her, I have to face the possibility that she is already dead.

Oh how I need your prayers more than any time before. Her resolve regarding her anorexia has increased greatly. And I believe that she has become bulimic also. She has been visiting "pro ana" websites on the net, which are, as the the suggests, por-anorexic as a means of coping with life. With the resolve and disciple to lose weight, I know that the resolve to plan her attempts, which up until now have been reactionary, will increase.

I am utterly petrified, and am at a loss as to what to do. There is rage rising up in me, which is seeking a means of expression, and I fear that it will be unloosed on my children and on Rach when she returns.

It has only been the precious fellowship of the brethren in far off lands, that has served to be a stabilising factor in my walk with God, and has been realigning me with faith in the "unseen and eternal" purposes of God, which are presently unknown (please no "wannabe prophets" are required to interpret these events. At present they are merely "factual" and without interpretation, and that seems to be how God would have it).

Please pray for Rach, and pray that I will endure until the end, because everything within me wants to just up and run.

Your humble brother, who is grateful for you fellowship and prayers,

Aaron :cry:

Standing with you in prayer, Brother.

Dear brother, please know that me and my mother are also with your family in prayer!

dorcas wrote:
JESUS is the Truth about everything.... the good, the bad and the ugly.

Funny, I was only talking to Kire on Sunday night about seeing with the single eye of faith, or to quote Norman Grubb, "It isn't 'God and..', it's 'God only'."

A quick update. First the good news, Rach is alive. And now the bad. She managed to find her script, and filled it. After taking 50 tablets, she engineered a plan to hide in her car near a friend's street, and then park her car down the bottom, so her body would be found in the morning. Thankfully she thought her she friend saw her friend drive past, when it wasn't, and so she was found and rushed to hospital.

She has been sent to a psych ward, which is close to home. Her admission is 'voluntary' but if she didn't go willingly, they would make it 'involuntary'. As I mentioned earlier, this has potential to be bad, but I pray that I am wrong.

My hope is that she will be able to humble herself whilst there, because when I left her, she had a chip on her shoulder the size of a redwood.

Hopefully she will be out within a month.

Thank you again for your prayers and support.

In His grip,

Az

Brother ...

Aaron,
I have no advice to give you, I have no idea what you must be going through or what your wife is going through. I will only say this. As I read these posts today, my heart ached for your family and tears fell from my eyes. I will be praying.

As I read these posts today, my heart ached for your family and tears fell from my eyes. I will be praying.

Mike,
I am also keeping your family in my prayers. Again I cannot imagine what you are going through, but my husband is backslidden or maybe he was never really saved, either way, it is very hard to live with.

[i]I find myself increasingly coming to the end of myself.

Oh how I need your prayers more than any time before.

Dear brothers and sisters,

if not now, then when?

Please, saints, and particularly those of you who know Aaron for longer, please read the last posts of brother Aaron, and let us be mature enough to stand together with this brother in prayer!
It is a spiritual battle.
Let us see together the miracle that God is going to bring, and in the end to rejoice together and praise God's name.
Please stop for a moment all other doctrinal discussions who are not about life or death matter, and instead taking 30min replying there, take this time for prayer, this is indeed life or death matter.
Have we no heart?

We all have received much from SI, let us begin to give to this community.

There is no sense discussing about the bible, prayer, it is about practicing it.
Brothers and sisters, we have chance.

Maybe I'm saying all of this because maybe I'm somewhere near...May the Lord forgive me...

[i]I find myself increasingly coming to the end of myself.

Oh how I need your prayers more than any time before.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Yours in Christ,
Kire

Bless you Kire for this ...

Aaron's words cut and cry

Mellisa, thank you ... I too need them desperately, from what you have stated you do know of this in your life ... my prayers are with you sister.

We need each other saints, we are His

Aaron...

We are praying. Be encouraged in Him.

Tears_of_joy wrote:
There is no sense discussing about the bible, prayer, it is about practicing it.
Brothers and sisters, we have chance.

Maybe I'm saying all of this because maybe I'm somewhere near...May the Lord forgive me...

[i]I find myself increasingly coming to the end of myself.

Oh how I need your prayers more than any time before.

[/i]

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Kire, thank you. You have hit the heart of the matter. Rach had said to me the other day that she didn't believe that God could make her better. I responded, "That's okay. You don't need to. Let that be my job. After all, I have people that I go to when I can't do it anymore." If that isn't bearing one another's burdens, then what is?

Over here in Australia, I have three categories of people that I ask to pray. There are those who will take opportunity to gossip with what I tell them, there are those who feel the need to share their advice, and raise all the concerns that they have about the situation (as if I didn't think that it was bad enough already), and then there are those you simply pray. Thank you guys for being of the third category. Thank you to all the "faceless ones" who say nothing to man, but plead with God on our behalf. I know that your reward will be great in heaven, but nevertheless, please allow me the pleasure of an appreciation of God's chosen vessels of anonymous intercession.

We have had some crazy times. The hospital that she is in, is like a prison in many ways. Some of the patients are quite random and dangerous, the staff are for the most part, defensive and callous, and of course you cannot come and go as you please. On Rach's second day, she was cornered by two men in a room, who asked her whether she was married, and whether she was "happily married", and things like that. This understandably scared her greatly.

In psych hospitals in Australia it is illegal to lock people into their rooms, so people can walk in and out of their own rooms, at their leisure. As a rule, the hospital where Rach is doesn't lock people out either. Rach's room was far away from the nursing station, and so if something were to "happen" at night Rach would be too far away for someone to hear. Considering that the purpose of Rach's stay there was to rest, this would be counterproductive to this goal, as she would not be able to sleep safely.

I mentioned her concerns, which were also my own, because I had noticed the main instigator of the two on her first day, and the nurse told me that she would look into having her moved, and said that they could lock the door so that no one could come in, but Rach could go out.

Anyway, this morning, I received a call to tell me that Rach had escaped, and they asked if I had seen her. After running around and panicking greatly, because the last time I spoke to her, she seemed settled, and happy that they were going to sort out the room (Rach acts extremely calm when she has found the resolve to make a suicide attempt), so I though that I lost her for good. Anyway, they called me back after 30 mins, to tell me that they found her, because they were looking in her old room, and not her new one. These are the kind of things that have been stretching this poor wretched man, as God had been tempering faith:cry:.

The good news is that they have decided to let her home her on day release, over the weekend (Friday is a public holiday in Australia). If things go well, then they'll let her home, to stay. Praise be to God.

Again, thank you, my brothers and sisters in Christ. This has been an arduous journey, so far, and it is good to know that you are there to help prop up my faith when it starts to falter.

Dear CJaKfOrEsT,

I haven't been able to read all your posts, rather, I just caught a few of the details. I just thought I would share with you a few things.

My mother is bipolar with episodes of psychosis. She has been depressed for the majority of her life. Depression is terribly destructive, not only on others, but on the body as well.

Last year, my mother was saved and came to know Jesus. Her life changed and she now knows a new peace and joy like never before. We were all excited thinking that she would never become depressed again. However, a few months later she lost her mind again.

My mother still becomes depressed, though, never like before. She is not suicidal like before. However, she still suffers from sadness at times.

What I have come to realize in all this is that there are two kinds of depression: physical and spiritual. When a person is saved, the spiritual is healed. However, the physical disease may still remain. It is important that the physical disease of depression be treated just as if the person was ill with any other disease.

I want you to know that if you ever need anyone to talk to, feel free to write me. I will even give you my phone number and gladly talk. Going through such hardship, you definitely need a listening ear.

Lastly...

I responded, "That's okay. You don't need to. Let that be my job. After all, I have people that I go to when I can't do it anymore." If that isn't bearing one another's burdens, then what is?

There is a trap and danger that you must be aware. I have experienced this and you must know that you can harm yourself and her if you do not listen.

When a person is suffering for spiritual depression, they are in desperate need of God. However, there is a temptation to replace this need with other people. This will lead to a temporary happiness that ends quickly. A person that is spiritually depressed will fall in love and cling to another person, then after a year or two, fall deep into depression again, sometimes even worse than before.

Often times, another person wants to come into their life and be the "hero" trying to lift them up and love them. This motivation is driven by love. However, there is a danger in this as well. The person may not realize it, but they are replacing God's role in the other person's life.

You must realize that you cannot be God, and you cannot be her God. This is important. She needs to find God in her life, and you can interfere if you constantly be her God by trying to carry her burdens and pick her up. God needs to be the one to save her. You cannot save her.

God has all the power in the universe. There is nothing that can stand in His way. Not humanity, and not the Devil. Jesus said, "All things are possible with God." All things!!! You must be willing to let God work in His way. Seek His will in this situation. Jesus can save her. But He can only save her His way. He will not save her your way or my way. He will do it His way, and it may require some terrible hardship on your part and her part.

You must surrender her into the hands of the Lord. Give your burdens to Jesus. I thought my mother could never be saved. She had lost everything. It was not until I finally gave up, that Jesus saved her.

You must let Jesus work in His way. Give everything to Jesus and put your faith in Him. Keep praying that the Lord will save her, and stop trying to save her yourself. You cannot!!

It is important to know and understand this because you could be the very thing keeping her from God. You could be the idol blocking her view.

She needs to believe Jesus can save her. Only when she does believe will Jesus be able to save her. Do not try to carry a burden that only Jesus can carry.

I say this in love, because I have seen it and experienced it.

May Jesus be with you and help you through this difficult time,

Your brother in Christ,
Blake

These are the kind of things that have been stretching this poor wretched man, as God had been tempering faith

vessels of anonymous intercession.

Every once in a while the covers are pulled back on one of these and it comes into the hearing ... There are eye's and ear's peering into these things shared here and it is almost paradoxical to say, but a great deal of wisdom I think in the silent ones ... I do not even know how to say what I am saying. Thank you, whoever you are. Thank you those praying for Aaron and Mellisa and even this foolish man ... and all the other things that come out in a variety of postings and expressions. There are others here bringing things to a head, to a rubber meets the road ... condition up against so many other speculative and often unimportant, wishing for a better word here ... 'weightier' considerations by way of comparison.

Aaron, thank you for your forthcoming and non-anonymity, keeping us abreast of what is going on.
There is a crushing that defies articulation.

Psa 16:1 [b]Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust[/b].
Psa 16:2 [i][b]O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee[/i][/b];

Psa 16:3 [u]But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.[/u]

Psa 16:4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
Psa 16:5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
Psa 16:6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.
Psa 16:7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
Psa 16:8 [b]I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, [u]I shall not be moved[/u].[/b]
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

beenblake wrote:
What I have come to realize in all this is that there are two kinds of depression: physical and spiritual. When a person is saved, the spiritual is healed. However, the physical disease may still remain. It is important that the physical disease of depression be treated just as if the person was ill with any other disease.

I want you to know that if you ever need anyone to talk to, feel free to write me. I will even give you my phone number and gladly talk. Going through such hardship, you definitely need a listening ear.

Thanks man. I have some "listening ears" (some in cyberspace, and some in the "flesh"). Feel free to contact me by either pm or msn, if you want.

When a person is suffering for spiritual depression, they are in desperate need of God. However, there is a temptation to replace this need with other people. This will lead to a temporary happiness that ends quickly. A person that is spiritually depressed will fall in love and cling to another person, then after a year or two, fall deep into depression again, sometimes even worse than before.

While I totally agree with what you are saying, I think that you misunderstood my meaning. At present, Rach looks at faith as if it is something that "we do", rather than trusting in what He has done. The major feeder of depression is guilt. You see, godly sorrow works repentance, but worldly sorrow works death. For Rach, her lack of faith is a sign of "failure" on her part, and rather than allowing herself to be "poor in spirit", she strives to be in control.

My offer was an attempt to help her to trust God in other people. Otherwise she will isolate herself, without a faith in God. Trust me, there are no hero illusions here, on either part. I may receive compliments and accolades, in spiritual matters, but Rach sees right through me, to the weak man, that needs to cling to God to survive.

You must realize that you cannot be God, and you cannot be her God. This is important. She needs to find God in her life, and you can interfere if you constantly be her God by trying to carry her burdens and pick her up. God needs to be the one to save her. You cannot save her.

And yet we are exhorted to bear one another's burdens. God alone can save her, and we both know that. I have no answer to this situation except that God has. Rach's life has led her to believe that God has let her down. My statement was to say, "I'll trust God, and He'll do the work. He isn't affect one bit by your success or failure in this. He's bigger than that, watch and see."

God has all the power in the universe. There is nothing that can stand in His way. Not humanity, and not the Devil. Jesus said, "All things are possible with God." All things!!! You must be willing to let God work in His way. Seek His will in this situation. Jesus can save her. But He can only save her His way. He will not save her your way or my way. He will do it His way, and it may require some terrible hardship on your part and her part.

It is important to know and understand this because you could be the very thing keeping her from God. You could be the idol blocking her view.

Friend, I say this in love, there is a fundamental difference between wifes and mothers, with a wife, you have to choose to stay, with a mother you have to choose to leave. In both cases staying is the right choice, but the wife was brought into your life from a different background. Plus, the emotional investment into the spouse is different to a parent. Do you have siblings? A wife? My helpmate and confidante is the one who is going through this.

You need to be careful how you offer this advice, because if you caught me at the wrong time, you may not have liked to hear the response.

My purpose for starting this thread was to seek prayer, out of desperation. I have had to learn to trust God in people, and it was a hard lesson for an independent man like me. And Rach's independence makes mine look like quadropledia. The comment was prayerfully considered before utterance, and I'll stand by it, as a result.

However, your warning is duely noted.

I will only respond by suggesting that you read through the thread, before making assumptions based on one statement. The statement was said at a point of despair, as an expression on empathy, directing her attention to God, from her inabilities.

You need to be careful how you offer this advice, because if you caught me at the wrong time, you may not have liked to hear the response.

[i]Miserable comforters[/i] ... Time to read through the book of Job again.

My purpose for starting this thread was to seek prayer, out of desperation.

Friend, I say this in love, there is a fundamental difference between wifes and mothers, with a wife, you have to choose to stay, with a mother you have to choose to leave. In both cases staying is the right choice, but the wife was brought into your life from a different background. Plus, the emotional investment into the spouse is different to a parent. Do you have siblings? A wife? My helpmate and confidante is the one who is going through this.

You need to be careful how you offer this advice, because if you caught me at the wrong time, you may not have liked to hear the response.

My purpose for starting this thread was to seek prayer, out of desperation. I have had to learn to trust God in people, and it was a hard lesson for an independent man like me. And Rach's independence makes mine look like quadropledia. The comment was prayerfully considered before utterance, and I'll stand by it, as a result.

However, your warning is duely noted.

What I said was meant in love. I think you know this. I appreciate your humble response. I also appreciate how you are reaching out in this. The whole Church should walk in such humility.

I am sorry. I am married and I know it must be tearing your heart.

Truly, as one sister has shown me, this is a time for prayer. I will pray for you and your wife.

In Christ,
Blake

By the way...

When I said that you need a listening ear, I meant that you need someone to listen to you. I was offering my own ear for your use.

Feel free to write or contact me at anytime.

Yours brother in Christ,
Blake

Hi all.

Just a quick report. Rach came home on Monday. Although she has a long way to go, she is at a point where she is realising her limitations, and not going beyond them. Usually she'd push on until she falls in a heap...or worse.

Your prayers are still greatly appreciated. She has been having some panic attacks, and I have noticed this weekend, that she has been a little claustrophobic around the kids. My prayer for her is that she'd find the peace of God, that surpasses understanding, and that she'd see hope, in her circumstances.

She says that she can only consider one day at a time, which in a way is good, however she tends to allow potential consequences to blow out of proportion, until she fears what "might be" to the point that she can't see that "what is" is pretty good.

Our anniversary was on Tuesday, and my birthday was on Thursday, so she put on a good act, but her true colours showed last night, as she was having trouble being around people again. This time, I made sure that I went out, with the kids in bed, so that I'd know where she was.

Thank you again for your prayers. I can feel your faith supporting mine, as Aaron and Hur with Moses' arms. I'm firmly persuaded that the victory will be won, and God has granted valuable insight into what true faith is, through all this. I only hope that there are not such excruciating "lessons" to come, as have been of late.:cry:

Your brother in Christ, and His slave,

Aaron

I'm firmly persuaded that the victory will be won,

Amen brother, amen!

Psa 61:2 From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: [b]lead me to the rock that is higher than I. [/b]

Eze 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down [b][u]in his[/u][/b] season; there shall be showers of blessing.

There shall be showers of blessing:
This is the promise of love;
[b]There shall be seasons refreshing,[/b]
Sent from the Savior above.

Refrain

Showers of blessing,
Showers of blessing we need:
Mercy drops round us are falling,
But for the showers [b]we plead.[/b]

There shall be showers of blessing,
[b]Precious reviving again;[/b]
Over the hills and the valleys,
Sound of abundance of rain.

Refrain

There shall be showers of blessing;
[b]Send them upon us, O Lord;
Grant to us now a refreshing,[/b]
Come, and now honor Thy Word.

Refrain

There shall be showers of blessing:
[b]Oh, that today they might fall,[/b]
Now as to God we’re confessing,
Now as on Jesus we call!

Refrain

There shall be showers of blessing,
If we but trust and obey;
There shall be seasons refreshing,
[b]If we let God have His way.[/b]

Refrain

[url=http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/h/thershow.htm]http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/h/thershow.htm[/url]

Ah, I didn't see this post before, I am interceeding also.

Hey y'all.

I thought I'd post an update. Things have been going relatively well. However, I have noticed that Rach has been a bit distant of late. This Monday will mark four weeks since her last suicide attempt. Since may not seem like much, except that each of the last attempts have been approx four weeks apart.

Please pray for us, as we reach his "milestone". My prayer is that Rach will be able to see through the delusion of the need for self effort, and rely more on Christ as her life.

While I acknowledge that this may be a coping mechanism, the fact is, the more she strives, the more she fails. The more she fails, the more she needs to deal with the shame (incorrectly called "guilt" in earlier posts). It would seem that the shame is the killer.

Thank you for your ongoing prayers. My hope is that a "pre-emptive strike" against the Kingdom of Darkness will lead to a great breakthrough. Nevertheless, His will be done.

Coincidently, Rach will be attending a Ladies Conference this weekend. My added hope is that the truth will be presented clearly, and that God will reveal Himself in Rach's life.

Thanks again, in advance.

His bondslave,

Aaron

My prayers continue brother.

The more she fails, the more she needs to deal with the shame (incorrectly called "guilt" in earlier posts). It would seem that the shame is the killer.

I would suspect that you diagnose correctly. Shame is a horrible subjective experience that can imprison one into deepest despair and self-loathing, and drive them further and further from God.

I once heard this explanation: “Guilt says I’ve made a mistake; shame says I am a mistake. Guilt says what I did was not good; shame says I am no good.”
May Rachel discover the One who can cover her shame with his glory.

"the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Rom 9:33

“Sing, O barren woman; you will not suffer shame.
Is 54:4

Diane

I am standing with you, brothers. (Aaron and Mike)

Just a quick update. Rach went out yesterday and didn't come back. She stayed at her counsellor's house after calling her because she was upset. Apparently she had a breakthrough in an area, which I won't go into right now. She is coming home tonight, and I have the kids at my parents, so that she can have a peaceful evening.

Tomorrow night, Rach will be attending a Ladies Conference, where the theme will be about putting our past behind us. It would seem that God is herding her into a place of encounter.

Thank you for your prayers and support. This battle is not over, and yet it would seem that victory could be on the horizon.

I just had a phone call from Rach's counseller. Aparently Rach just got angry and stormed out, saying that she is pathetic, and similar things. I fear that she is capable of harming herself, and so I beg you to pray. God is the only answer here. Pray that He'll keep her, and bring her home safely.

Thanks.

dorcas wrote:
I'm absolutely delighted that she is feeling angry enough to storm out.

As you've never mentioned her being angry before, I'd say it is good sign - associated with self-esteem - and one [i]less[/i] associated with her harming herself, than more; but definitely I will keep praying she comes back in a slightly different frame of mind.

Linn, Linn, Linn... once again you assume much. AT present, Rach is staying at her counsellors, because she is having trouble hoping with the world. Rach has an extremely short fuse, and I have referred to this in an earlier post:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
In the mind of the depressed one, go thoughts like, "I wish I could handle the noise that my children make when they're having fun", which are offset with "That noise is driving me nuts", and comes out, "Will you just shut up!! I can't handle the noise!!" This doesn't sound like much, but it is often being directed at her four year old daughter. Then there is the guilt of the explosion, wishing it could be taken back, and the cycle begins again.
[i]2006/11/4 16:14[/i]

Perhaps I should clarify. Kids, being kids, make noise. Rach can't handle the noise. She goes on to scream at them, swearing and carrying on. Then the kids start to cry. Rach tells them "Shut up, or I'll give you something to cry about." When she calms down, and realises what she has done, she begins to feel shame (earlier posts I referred to depression being fed by "guilt". The word that I should have used would be "shame" - see earlier post).

Thoughts fill her head, like "I'm such a b--ch. I'm damaging the kids..." etc. From this place she goes down the road of thinking that everyone would be better off without her, and then she makes plans to end her life.

I know this because she has told me, I am not making assumptions. I have confirmed this dynamic with both my counselor, and hers. When her counselor called to say that she left, she said to me, "She is in a bad place, and has the potential to harm herself, and I don't know what else to do but pray."

Rach's problem isn't that she doesn't get angry. She does that all the time. The problem is that she doesn't cry (again, not my opinion, alone but also that of both her, and my counsellor). She is afraid that if she starts crying, she won't stop.

Of course I'm not worried about her counsellor, I am worried about Rach!!! It wasn't even five weeks ago that she last made an attempt. Only last week, she severely cut up her arms (something that she hasn't done in at least 2 years). Rach had gone over to her house to tell her that she wanted to stop seeing her, because she felt that she was unable to cope with her counselling sessions anymore. She said that she was going to go home and, be sad for the rest of her life, because she could cope better with that.

Rach's harming herself is about self control. In harming herself, she is in control of her circumstances. She can end her life her way, on her terms. After all, God won't answer her prayers to let her die (again I say this, knowing that if I don't, that I'm assuming this - "THESE ARE HER WORDS!!!")

Linn, I understand that you are a counsellor, but honestly, I hope that you have a really good lawyer, because if you jump to these kind of conclusions with your clients, then you could end up with a law suit on your hands. Suggestibility is a real issue, and in fact, whatever damage wasn't caused by Rach's baby sitters, the way her parents handled the whole thing, by acting as if it never happened, ex-boyfriends who maliciously took advantage of her, and a husband who fell into pornography...was solidified by a Psychiatrist who had her convinced that her father molested her, and even to this day, thinks that she is in denial.

Opinions are okay, Linn, but please, at least wait until the dust is settled before you dish them out.

One last update, before I go to bed. I had just gotten back from going out to look for Rach, when I posted to Linn (dorcas). While I was out, Rach's counsellor rang, to let me know that Rach came back. :-)

Once again, God has shown me my need to trust Him more, and to be still, and know that He is God.

Thank you once again for your prayers.

Brother Aaron...

We are continuing to pray for your family. Be encouraged in the Lord!

:-)

Just a quick note to keep you updated. To say that Rach is well would be an error, but to say that she is in present danger is equally wrong. As I mentioned earlier, Rach had a breakthrough, in that she has come to a place where she has been able to face some things that happened to her as a kid, which she has been trying to avoid for years. As a result, she has been very fragile, and so has been staying with her counselor.

She and her husband have opened up their home to her, and have invited her to consider herself a part of their family. Not that they are trying to replace her parents, but that they are offering the kind of unconditional love that her parents seem to be unable to offer her, while she is processing the trauma that she endured as a child, which had to do with abuse at the hands of baby sitters.

At present, the kids are staying with my parents (although, I have them home tonight, for a sleep over, because tomorrow is a public holiday), and I visit them every night after work. They are handling this quite well. From time to time they get sad and miss mum, but we make sure that they have permission to do so, but generally they are happy and well balanced. One of the keys seems to be that we have told them that this could take a while, where in the past, we kept telling them that mum should be home soon.

At mum and dad's, they have stability, and have permission to play, make mess, be loud, and all the kind of things that kids normally do. My parents have a border staying with them, who is an old friend of mine, and a godly Christian, and he acts much like a big brother and, dare I say, surrogate parent, to them at times. They are in school during the day, and I stay until they go to bed, so they see me almost as much as they would, if they were at home.

Rach has come home a couple of times, and although she has coped alright, she tends to be at the end of her rope when she leaves. It is hard to persuade her that what she is doing, right now, is the most responsible thing for herself and our family, and she keeps trying to promise things to the kids, only to be emotionally unable to deliver. She has started seeing a psychiatrist, who has told her that she wants to avoid changing or giving her more medication, because she needs to begin face her issues, rather than avoiding them. She has even convinced her to at least maintain her weight, rather than keep losing it, as this is another form of avoidance.

Like I said, things are going well. One might say, all according to plan. I am still amazed at the processes that have been at work here, and the lengths that God has gone to work a healing in her life. Some people will only be amazed when God works instantaneously, but I say that it is far more amazing to watch him orchestrate a series of events, over a period of years, so as to work a change over time. I would never have chosen this, but on hindsight, I could see no other way to bring Rach to this point.

Praise be to God.

Your prayers are still coveted and appreciated, as there is still along way to go. Thank you again for your faithfullness. Words cannot express my gratitude sufficiently.

BrianMira wrote:
P.S. ... sign me up for the third category, please.. :roll:

CJaKfOrEsT quote:
Thank you guys for being of the third category. Thank you to all the "faceless ones" who say nothing to man, but plead with God on our behalf. I know that your reward will be great in heaven, but nevertheless, please allow me the pleasure of an appreciation of God's chosen vessels of anonymous intercession.

Sorry, I can't. You're no longer anonymous. :-P

Thank you Brian. Your prayers are appreciated. Ohh, and by the way, you're not a prostitute. At least if you are, I am too, at the moment;-).

roadsign wrote:

It is the church who should be the nurses bearing the weight ourselves as we bind the wounds with persevering prayer until healing comes.

Perhaps a good time to post this:

Please hear what I am not saying
Charles C. Finn

Please hear what I am not saying.
Don't be fooled by me.
Don't be fooled by the face I wear.
For I wear a thousand masks
that I'm afraid to take off,
And none of them are me!

Pretending is an art that's second nature with me.
Don't be fooled…..
I give the impression that I'm secure,
that all is sunny and unruffled with me.
Within as well as without,
Confidence is my name
Coolness is my game.
The water is calm and I'm in command.
I need no one.

Don't believe me…please.

My surface may seem smooth,
but my surface is a mask.

Beneath this lies no complacence.
Beneath dwells the real me in confusion,
in fear and alone.

But I hide this; I don't want anyone to know it.
I panic at the thought of my weaknesses and
fears being exposed.
A nonchalant, sophisticated façade
to help me pretend
To shield me from the glance that knows.
But…such a glance could lead to my salvation…
That is, if it is followed by acceptance,
if followed by love.
Love is that only thing that will assure me
of what I can't assure myself
…I am worth something!

But I won't tell you this.
I don't dare.
I am afraid to.
Perhaps your glance will not be followed
by acceptance and love.
I'm afraid that you'd think less of me,
that you'd laugh at me.
Your laugh…would kill me.
I'm afraid that deep down I'm 'nothing',
that I'm 'no good'

So, I play my game, my desperate game.
With a façade of assurance without,
and a trembling child within,
My life is a parade of masks, a front.

I chatter to you in the swave tones of surface talk.
I tell you everything that is really nothing,
And nothing of what is really everything,
Nothing of what is crying within me.
So, do not be fooled by what I am saying.

Please listen carefully;
try to hear what I'm not saying,
What I'd like to be able to say,
what I need to say,
but can't!

I do dislike the superficial,
phony game I'm playing.
I'd like to be genuine and spontaneously 'me',
but I need help.

Hold out your hand
even if it's the last thing I seem to want.
Each time you are kind,
and gentle, and encouraging,
Each time you try to understand
because you really care
My heart begins to grow wings,
Very small, feeble wings-
but wings that will one day help me to soar
on the wings of your encouragement.
You are so important to me.
You can help me to break down the wall
behind which I tremble.
You can help me to remove my mask.
You can help me to be released
from my shadowy world of panic,
uncertainty and loneliness.
It will not be easy for you,
My walls are strong,
But I am told that love is stronger than any wall.

Perhaps you could build a bridge to my heart
and Jesus could cross over into my life.

You may wonder who I am,
You know me well
I am every man and woman you meet.

And how sad it is that this is so. I was that person. God has broken me, so I am less that person. But She will not go entirely away. I was Her for too many years. One day She will be completely gone, when I see Jesus face to face, and know, really know, what love is.

Bless you for posting the words of what our pain hides under.

I spent too many years talking to psychologists, and getting to know myself - began 1973, and progress even now, though only for meds, as I have had cronic depression since I was 9, resulting from molestation at 7, blessedly outside the family.

I have watched my condition range from being called scizophrenia, to bi-polar, to chronic depression and anxiety, and there it stays. They should have been honest with me, and called it self hatred, but I don't think there is a medical term for that.

Did all the years of psychology help? About half the people asked good questions. Frankly, it was the depth of my pain that pushed my honesty, and my willingness to endure the pain of self discovery that gave me improvement at all. It also made me an excellant lay counselor. Nothing like learning from experience, but I use the Bible as my referance. Few counselors do.

A Christian Psychologist who had much to do with my re-commitment to Jesus, and who is now my dear friend, and I agree that when psychology enters the realm of putting self above God, it becomes evil. This is the ultimate aim of psychology, to focus entirely on the self, and this is a valid fear of the church, that man might actually do something that God can do, then wean the child of God from the church.

Can it be done? Well, I think it varies from person to person, but I will say that I am as selfish and self centered as anyone I know. How much does that mean? Probably only a little, but I have no means of comparison.

I will say that I would have preferred Jesus to have asked the questions, because He would have known when I was in denial, and better yet, would have healed me on the spot.

Alas, my kind of depression is now physically based. Spiritually, I know I must be better, for I am learning to love God, and thus myself.

Even when you get past the self hatred for what happened to you, and what you did because you hated yourself, the body carries a residual problem. Permanent damage can be done, that requires medication to stay out of the suicide zone. On the other hand, with God, you can learn to be happy a good deal of the time, and the medication doesn't do that.

Some people will need both meds and God for life, unless God chooses to make a miracle. I pray for your wife and Aaron's, and for the two of you, that the miracle of God's love will outweigh the lie that your wive's believe of themselves - that they have no value, not to God, not to you, not to children, friends, family, and most of all, themselves.

A final note. While I was most deeply depressed, I was the furthest I could get from Jesus - I was in the occult. But Jesus held on, and held on, and held on, until I could get past enough of my pain and self hatred to accept His love.

Be not faithless, but believing, dear Brother. God will not leave you, nor forsake you, no matter how it may feel.

And may God bless you for staying with your spouse through all the hard times. Your love may be helping her more than you know, but ultimately, she must learn to love herself. Your pain will also be used for your good, as you know.

It is a great pity that while all this is going on, you both get to feel miserable. But we will still pray.

Blessings,

UniqueWebRev wrote:
A Christian Psychologist who had much to do with my re-commitment to Jesus, and who is now my dear friend, and I agree that when psychology enters the realm of putting self above God, it becomes evil. This is the ultimate aim of psychology, to focus entirely on the self, and this is a valid fear of the church, that man might actually do something that God can do, then wean the child of God from the church.
...
And may God bless you for staying with your spouse through all the hard times. Your love may be helping her more than you know, but ultimately, she must learn to love herself. Your pain will also be used for your good, as you know.

One of the things that I like about posting in this thread, is that it can be clearly seen how my observations have formed, and how God has proved Himself true to His word. There is much that is, has and continues to happening, as part of His loving tempering process.

Forrest, I have highlighted these too statements, in order to highlight an issue that I hope that our experience will address. This issue is that of redefining Psychology down to its grass roots. The word Psychology simply means the "study of the psyche (or mind)". It is an amoral term and must be, simply because God created the mind, and therefore it cannot be called evil, in itself.

To say that "the ultimate aim of psychology, to focus entirely on the self", is not an accurate statement, and has as much validity as "religion is the cause of all wars". While it is true that many wars have been fought between people of different religions, the basis of the war hasn't so much been the religion itself, but the political agendas of the leaders of the groups that may or not be religious. Therefore the root of war is selfishness, based in politics.

Granted, much of what the world calls Psychology focuses on absolving of guilt by shifting blame, this, in itself is not what Psychology is. True Psychology is concerned with how the mind works, particularly attempting to understand defects in function, and working towards correction of these defects. Worldly Psychology may tend to be content with having it's patient to have the [b]appearance[/b] of normal function, but in the end, this is merely denial.

One of the major errors that Church has embraced, regarding Psychology, has been that the connection between the physical and mental is often either ignored or denied. It is easy to see that when one is tired, they are often more irritable than when well rested, but that is about the extent of understanding such a connection. The church is largely ignorant of how the brain functions as a data storage and retrieval system for a person. This is left for the Psychologist to understand, and even then, some if lack adequate knowledge, or worse, ignore the practicalities once someone begins to be able to "go about their business".

We understand that legs are required for walking, and based on this knowledge, be offer crutches to the person who has broken their leg. We may pray for their healing, but we understand that there are times that God will not work an instantaneous miracle, and allow them room to recover. This is in spite of the fact that often the break will be completely invisible to the naked eye, and without the benefit of an x-ray image, the only evidience of the break would be discomfit when weight is applied to the leg. For some reason, we can see this connection between physical defect and function, but cannot apply the same logic when approaching the human brain.

Strangely, we can when we consider people with autism, victims of head injuries, or people with drug induced psychoses, but not when it comes to victims of trauma. We look at the Psychologist and say that they're just promoting selfishness, but the fact is, unless a rape victim, for example, can see that the person who violated them was the guilty one, they can never actually forgive them. Fact is, it is not only us who sin against others, but others sin against us. Forgiveness must be a willing thing, or else it is counterfeit. There is no point pretending that you have forgiven someone, unless you acknowledge that they have committed wrong.

There is no doubt that God uses traumatic events in His tempering process, but the point in this is that He would be glorified. How is He glorified? Ultimately when we obey the command to "love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength" and "love your neighbour as yourself." The point ultimately is that he come into intimate fellowship with God, with the associated evidence of like fellowship with our fellow man.

Consider that when a person has endured abuse as a child, be it sexual or other, often that child grows into an adult who is unable to trust others, and for good reason. Their is no point splitting hairs over the moral value of trust, with such a person, simply because most of these ones would rather the relief of trusting, that to be enslaved to a kind of paranoia when considering everyone's motives, but are unable to find a way to change. They pray, they fast, they strive, but nothing changes. And in spit of all this, the fact is that distrust is not conducive to intimacy, thereby rendering fellowship all but impossible.

Now, understanding how a person processes memories and emotions, particularly fear and anger, and you are a step closer to being able to at least not exasperate their problem, and perhaps even assist in their recovery. This is where Psychology comes in. I have heard it said that there is no such thing as a "Christian Psychologist". While this is true, there is also no such thing as a Christian Surgeon. The thing is, there is little moral impact to the way that one recovers from a appendectomy, while there is when someone gets involved in emotional restoration, therefore it is wise to make a distinction.

As I mentioned, earlier, the issue of trust is a major key to intimacy, and the Bible word for trust is "faith". Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is an imminent thig, where I trust that something God has promised, is on the way, in spite of every appearance to the contrary.

Forrest (and many others) mentioned that our "pain [b]will also be[/b] used for (our) good". I personally would rather speak in the present and past tense, because in spite of the appearance of evil, God's hand can be seen clearly at work, because without the opportunity to doubt, there can be no true faith. In Psalm 73, Asaph wrote, "My strength and my heart faileth, but thou, oh Lord are the strength of my heart, and my portion forever." This has been my testimony throughout all of this. It is peculiar to be enduring such torment, and yet be able to console those you find out about your circumstances, because they cannot handle the thought that such a thing could happen to someone that they know. But this is a part of the faith that is required for true fellowship, coupled with being able to allow another to bear your burdens, so that they may obey the Word of God. It is a strength that is mixed with humility.

When I consider all of this, it is hard to see a tragedy. Of course, it is not always seen with such clarity. :cry:

I have heard it said that there is no such thing as a "Christian Psychologist".

We do need to avoid self-exalting dogmatism, lest we expose ourselves naked before all those psychologists - who could justifiably diagnose us as egotistic, self-centered, self-loving, stuck-up, vain, and conceited.

the ultimate aim of psychology, to focus entirely on the self, and this is a valid fear of the church,

that man might actually do something that God can do, then wean the child of God from the church.

If the motive behind psychology is merely to foster self-focus, then narcissism should be considered a virtue. The dictionary defines narcissism as: excessive love or admiration of oneself; a psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.

The opposite of narcissism is: modest, self-effacing, atoning, attritional, contrite, expiatory, explanatory, penitent, penitential, propitiatory, regretful, remorseful, repentant, From the dictionary. It’s amazing how biblical that sounds!

I say: It wouldn't hurt to have more self-effacing, contrite psychologists around - as good models for society!

May God, through the power of his Spirit, help us become less and less narcissistic, and more and more penitent, so that Christ can shine through us.

Look at all the gems in Aaron's post! I don't know which words to highlight, they are all so rich:

without the opportunity to doubt, there can be no true faith.In Psalm 73, Asaph wrote, "My strength and my heart faileth, but thou, oh Lord are the strength of my heart, and my portion forever." This has been my testimony throughout all of this.

It is peculiar to be enduring such torment, and yet be able to console those you find out about your circumstances, because they cannot handle the thought that such a thing could happen to someone that they know.

But this is a part of the faith that is required for true fellowship, coupled with being able to allow another to bear your burdens, so that they may obey the Word of God.

It is a strength that is mixed with humility .

When I consider all of this, it is hard to see a tragedy. Of course, it is not always seen with such clarity.

Diane

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
A Christian Psychologist who had much to do with my re-commitment to Jesus, and who is now my dear friend, and I agree that when psychology enters the realm of putting self above God, it becomes evil. This is the ultimate aim of psychology, to focus entirely on the self, and this is a valid fear of the church, that man might actually do something that God can do, then wean the child of God from the church.
...
And may God bless you for staying with your spouse through all the hard times. Your love may be helping her more than you know, but ultimately, she must learn to love herself. Your pain will also be used for your good, as you know.

One of the things that I like about posting in this thread, is that it can be clearly seen how my observations have formed, and how God has proved Himself true to His word. There is much that is, has and continues to happening, as part of His loving tempering process.

Forrest, I have highlighted these two statements, in order to highlight an issue that I hope that our experience will address. This issue is that of redefining Psychology down to its grass roots. The word Psychology simply means the "study of the psyche (or mind)". It is an amoral term and must be, simply because God created the mind, and therefore it cannot be called evil, in itself.

[color=0033FF]Very true. I should have used the words the use of Psychological assessment, analysis, diagnosis, and treatment, rather than the word psychology. I can see that amongst my brothers and sisters on this site that I dare not make a generalization, for what you focused on was not the heart of what I was trying to say.[/color]

To say that "the ultimate aim of psychology, to focus entirely on the self", is not an accurate statement, and has as much validity as "religion is the cause of all wars". While it is true that many wars have been fought between people of different religions, the basis of the war hasn't so much been the religion itself, but the political agendas of the leaders of the groups that may or not be religious. Therefore the root of war is selfishness, based in politics.

[color=0033FF]I agree in part, although I would say that the root of war, regardless of the excuse used, is the perpetual drive to forcibly redistribute wealth and territory according to population driven needs. In regards the statement ""To say that "the ultimate aim of psychology, is to focus entirely on the self", is not an accurate statement,"" I will state that the study of the psyche is not focused on anything but the study of the psyche, and it's potential use, presumably for good.

However, in my experience, the use and application of psychology does tend toward the development of the self, within the confines of the world system in which it exists, and the object of the application. A person who suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder, for instance, has been allowed to develop no seperate self from the mother, say, perhaps, a Narcissist with Control Oriented Fear motivations, will find the use of appropriate psychological environment to allow the patient to build a 'self'.

Unfortunately, the tendency of Psychologists is to see the case, not in the context of a total environment, but in the narrow focus of the self that needs to be re-built. In that case, and context, my original statement was true, though I did not explain it well.

In addition, most operative conditions, wherein the patient is lucid, are also subject to the validation of the self above all. Once the self is fully established from the psychological point of view, integration, or more successful re-integration within society, is a secondary aim. The value and use of the community is relegated to whether or not it is likely to be harmed by the subject.[/color]

Granted, much of what the world calls Psychology focuses on absolving of guilt by shifting blame, this, in itself is not what Psychology is. True Psychology is concerned with how the mind works, particularly attempting to understand defects in function, and working towards correction of these defects. Worldly Psychology may tend to be content with having it's patient to have the [b]appearance[/b] of normal function, but in the end, this is merely denial.

[color=0033FF]Oddly, despite the many psychologists I have seen, the varying diagnoses and treatments of me, and the furtherance of scientific discovery since 1973, when I began my trek through the perils of counseling and the research I did along the way, I have found that most psychologists do attempt a positive result for the patient. Whether they are allowed sufficient time to actually help the patient re-structure the underlying parameters of their psychosis, or limited by time and monetary constraints to a simulation of a complete restructuring, is not a matter of denial, but a recognition of what they, as Psychologists, will be allowed to do. Tell a psychologist they have six weeks, and they will do what they must to keep the patient in a home environment, at the least. Give a Psychologist unlimited time and resources, and you can end up with a totally viable, if damaged, person.

However, because the non-believing Psychologist must replace God in the patient's mind as the ultimate source of authority, God, in the patient's mind, is reduced to a pleasant myth to be used to comfort the patient. This is a necessity to ensure that the patient will listen to, and transfer to the Psychologist all of the emotional distress and lack of control they feel. Unfortunately, with some Psychologists I have known, this permits them too much authority in the patient's mind. This is why the church in general is suspicious of Psychological treatment, and reasonably so.[/color]

One of the major errors the Church has embraced, regarding Psychology, has been that the connection between the physical and mental is often either ignored or denied. It is easy to see that when one is tired, they are often more irritable than when well rested, but that is about the extent of understanding such a connection. The church is largely ignorant of how the brain functions as a data storage and retrieval system for a person. This is left for the Psychologist to understand, and even then, some if lack adequate knowledge, or worse, ignore the practicalities once someone begins to be able to "go about their business"...

[color=0033FF]This is not solely a church matter, but a societal one. The more parochial the society, the more parochial the local Churches, and the more limited their thinking of what is considered appropriate medical treatment. In those denominations that refuse or limit medical treatment, this has become particularly evident, but is not absent from the older members of even the most liberal and cosmopolitan congregations.[/color]

...There is no doubt that God uses traumatic events in His tempering process, but the point in this is that He would be glorified. How is He glorified? Ultimately when we obey the command to "love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength" and "love your neighbour as yourself." The point ultimately is that he come into intimate fellowship with God, with the associated evidence of like fellowship with our fellow man.

[color=0033FF]We have no disagreement here. However, during the process of tribulation, unless it is actual, Christian oriented abuse, no patient is likely to see it this way until well after maximum recovery, whatever that may be, and then, only if they are Christian themselves. Fortunately, God frequently uses such world, flesh, or devil promoted travail to make a devoted Christian out of the most blatant pagan. At any rate, He certainly used the travail of my entire life to make this so. [/color]

Consider that when a person has endured abuse as a child, be it sexual or other, often that child grows into an adult who is unable to trust others, and for good reason. Their is no point splitting hairs over the moral value of trust, with such a person, simply because most of these ones would rather the relief of trusting, that to be enslaved to a kind of paranoia when considering everyone's motives, but are unable to find a way to change. They pray, they fast, they strive, but nothing changes. And in spite of all this, the fact is that distrust is not conducive to intimacy, thereby rendering fellowship all but impossible.

Now, understanding how a person processes memories and emotions, particularly fear and anger, and you are a step closer to being able to at least not exasperate their problem, and perhaps even assist in their recovery. This is where Psychology comes in. I have heard it said that there is no such thing as a "Christian Psychologist".

[color=0033FF]Aaron, you may have heard it said that there is no such thing as a 'Christian Psychologist. That doesn't mean they don't exist. Perhaps their title differs, perhaps they merely advertise in Church directories as well as the Yellow Pages, but they do exist. And for someone who does not want their family member to deal with an assault on thir belief system as a means to a cure, these Psychologists are invaluable.

For myself, I did not know that my "Christian Psychologist" was a Christian of any kind until the 4th year of a 5 year span of treatment. Except where the referral comes from a Christian source, my friend would not dare to mention it, but she would find it extremely valuable to know the basis of the subject's world view, including whether there is a belief in God, what denominational lines the subject has been raised under, and what prejudices against treatment are within the subject's family and congregation.

Since any Psychologist must discover all this information, and do it gradually, a bit here, and a bit there, asking inoffensive questions allowing the patient to speak, and gathering the information so critical to helping the patient, it doesn't hurt for a Christian patient to work with a Psychologist who happens to be a Christian. At that point, the Psychologist can work with the patient from the background of the patient's belief structure, instead of replacing God as the authority figure. A Christian-based Psychologist can use God and the Bible as the authority, disturbing the belief system as little as possible.

Once trust has been established; and treatment proceeds apace, beliefs do come into the matter of the final resolution of selfhood, and the amelioration of the initial complaint. Prayer, speaking about God, speaking about lifestyle difficulties within the family and congregation are quite influential to a working diagnosis and order of treatment.[/color]

While this is true, there is also no such thing as a Christian Surgeon.

[color=0033FF]Really? And the surgeon who prays for assistance before operating on your child has no value? This is a strange conclusion.[/color]

The thing is, there is little moral impact to the way that one recovers from a appendectomy, while there is when someone gets involved in emotional restoration, therefore it is wise to make a distinction.

[color=0033FF]You'd be surprised how much impact occurs during surgery when the Doctor is relying on God's favor and grace, how much it helps to have a Christian staff to pray over the healing of the surgery, and so forth. My personal physician is a Christian, and so is her staff, and the majority of the specialists she works with.

It is even more apparent in psychological treatment. And as not all psychological treatment relates to emotional restoration, but a rebuilding of the entire growth process or restoration of mind/body/psyche connectivity, I ask you to be careful in using the word emotional in regards to Psychological Treatment. It is as likely to be a matter of hardware and software, in computer terms.[/color]

As I mentioned, earlier, the issue of trust is a major key to intimacy, and the Bible word for trust is "faith". Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is an imminent thing, where I trust that something God has promised, is on the way, in spite of every appearance to the contrary.

[color=0033FF]
I am reluctant to dispute with you over words, but in this one case, where trust, as in leaning upon God, is very different from trust, as in intimacy. You use trust as intimacy as the same thing as faith in God. I know from experience how much one leans upon their psychologist, once a Godlike trust is engendered in them, which is why I am concerned that you have a very different idea of what a Psychologist becomes to the patient. Trust, as in leaning upon God, is the relationship necessary for a psychologist to do their best work. And although faith, as in faith in God is similar to the kind of intimacy of trust, they are not equivalent, and it is dangerous to assume they are.

Strong's Ref. # 982 Trust

Romanized batach
Pronounced baw-takh'

a primitive root; properly, to hie for refuge [but not so precipitately as HSN2620]; figuratively, to trust, be confident or sure:

KJV--be bold (confident, secure, sure), careless (one, woman), put confidence, (make to) hope, (put, make to) trust.

Strong's Ref. # 4102 Faith,

Romanized pistis
Pronounced pis'-tis

from GSN3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:

KJV--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
[/color]

Forrest,(and many others) have mentioned that our pain will be also be used for (our) good. I personally would rather speak in the present and past tense, because in spite of the appearance of evil, God's hand can be seen clearly at work, because without the opportunity to doubt, there can be no true faith. In Psalm 73, Asaph wrote, "My strength and my heart faileth, but thou, oh Lord are the strength of my heart, and my portion forever." This has been my testimony throughout all of this. It is peculiar to be enduring such torment, and yet be able to console those you find out about your circumstances, because they cannot handle the thought that such a thing could happen to someone that they know. But this is a part of the faith that is required for true fellowship, coupled with being able to allow another to bear your burdens, so that they may obey the Word of God. It is a strength that is mixed with humility.

[color=0033FF]Aaron, I am grateful that you are enabled to find usefulness, even glory, in your suffering. I am grateful on Rachael's behalf, that you value your marriage vows enough to stay despite the pain. Generally, when I am in distress, I am not capable of such distinctions. I know that I am growing. I cannot take comfort from it. God must indeed be blessing you in the midst of your difficulties.[/color]

When I consider all of this, it is hard to see a tragedy. Of course, it is not always seen with such clarity. :cry:

[color=0033FF]Naturally not. God's grace is involved to make it so, and the suffering that brings about such clarity must be painful indeed.

However, in my original post, I was not speaking to Psychology, or the use of it, or to your pain, although I naturally acknowledged it.

I must have spoken badly indeed, for my intent was to focus on the words being used in other posts, such as guilt and shame. I used the words anger at self, and self hatred, because, in a case of sexual abuse, guilt only promotes a deep and abiding anger at one's self, and shame results in self hatred.

Mere guilt and shame do not lead one, as a rule, to attempted suicide, and the continuing attempt to hurt one's self unto death. Only hate and anger promote self murder. Consequently, Rachael must learn to love herself, and she cannot do that unless she knows how to love. If she had no experience of genuine love, a growing love of God will eventually result in the ability to love herself. How much she is valued, and shown to be valued, now, and when she recovers is crucial.

I do not believe, by the words used, that anyone but you has much idea of what Rachael is going through, and even you, can only see the pain of these feelings, and their result.

The rest of us can only pray for you both.

Blessings,
[/color]

It would seem that the moral of the is "speak less, be misunderstood less". Firstly, my last comment about, seeing things with varying digrees of clarity, referred to myself.

My comments regarding there being "no such thing as a 'Christian Psychologist'," are quoting others, and not stating my personal veiwpoint. There are some who are so paranoid, in regard to Psychology, that they speak things that border on slander to support their case. My reference to surgery was to point out that most of these people who refuse Psychology to a traumatised one, who go under the knife, if necessary, in spite of their arguements being applicable to Surgeons as well.

My comment regarding faith being synonymous with trust, were intended to highlight the fact that love of God and love of fellow man are in seperable. If you consider your "Godlike trust is engendered" upon your psychologist, as you put it, it could be said that it was an expression of faith in God, to trust Him with the psychologist that He had provided you, whether consciously or unconsciously.

Lastly, regarding the root of war, I was actually paraphrasing James:

From whence [i]come[/i] wars and fightings among you? [i]come[/i] they not hence, [i]even[/i] of your lusts that war in your members?
(James 4:1)

A comment to Brian, who said:

I will not debate with people about the advantages or disadvantages of medication, because when I was put in the hospital, they released me labled with depression, bipolar and some other things, along with two fists full of medication to choke down each day...I left it all at the cross.

May God give you many opportunities to bless others with the same comfort you have received from Christ!

Diane

UniqueWebRev,
I really appreciate your posts, and your insight (in general). I found this one especially helpful:

Mere guilt and shame do not lead one, as a rule, to attempted suicide, and the continuing attempt to hurt one's self unto death. Only hate and anger promote self murder.

I believe that it this the underlying cause of many disorders and sinful practises (harming self or others). By understanding the nature of this poisonous root, then we, as Christians, aught to see God’s love in a different light - and hopefully be better instruments of healing.

Diane

A small piece from another posting;

YOU have been hard hit by heavy tidings of bereavement. The one that you loved as your own life has passed over into that unseen world which, though so near, seems so far. The light has suddenly died out of your heart, and you would be glad if you could know that you would soon be allowed to follow. I hardly dare to speak with you. In such deep waters there is only One who can stem the rushing torrent and restrain you from being swept away. It is recorded that on one occasion when a brother minister had lost his wife to whom he was tenderly attached, the late Dr. Parker called to see him, and on entering the room, without speaking a word, sat down beside his stricken friend and took his hand. After holding it in silence for some time, he rose and as silently departed. They both felt that that sorrow was too deep for speech.

If anything to be drawn off of and mentioned it would be only the response of Dr. Parker .. that sentiment. Just as well, that is not too say a great deal or mis-attribute it to help offered and experience shared.

For all the things similar much is dissimilar with present difficulties and where it is axiomatic to understand Aaron's situation and mine own. Pondering all these things in the heart and they turn out into prayer mostly without effort ... specific recognition. What I might be attempting to say is that it is a constant, a backdrop .... "Aaron", "Rachel" ...
"[i]Ah,... Lord[/i]"... "Lisa"

Aaron, the parallels for us are ... sacrifice, and as you well noted, trust - faith ... love. I too am learning many of the very same lessons as you have made mention, even the wonderful opportunity to give 'leg's' to much that has been read and internalized through those who...

[i]Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.[/i] Hebrews 13:7

From all that is read and heard here and beyond these pages. Chambers comes to mind quite often in his expression, primarily by way of noting paradox. There is the 'wisdom' of men and if I may, "[i]The wisdom of men[/i]" confounded with the 'foolishness of God'. A great deal to glean from, that which is applicable and that which fit's situations often slightly or not at all ... only those in their midst can appropriate them.

But to note the paradox again ... what I am finding is that a great deal of it is quite contrary to what 'psychology' whether 'Christian' or not (Not a slight there whatsoever), even more so, that it is contrary to what all the many gleanings of particular principles often might ... that's a bit botched, let me try this;

I am afraid that today there are many who only believe what they can understand, and if there is something else that they cannot understand, they do not believe it. If they have devised to themselves a systematized theology (or more probably they have adopted someone else’s system of theology), and they hear a sermon (no matter how much Scripture there may be in it) which they cannot fit into their little system of theology, they won’t have it. [u]They place a higher value on consistency than they do on fidelity[/u]. That is just what was the matter with these disciples: they could not see the consistency of the two things and therefore they were only prepared to believe the one.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15678&forum=34#121294]Christian Fools ~ A.W. Pink[/url]

Highly recommend this article by the way but the notice there is on the word 'fidelity' and to simplify the whole matter I am taking that to mean being faithful. Faithful to the promptings of the Holy Spirit moment to moment in how we approach and respond to those things our wives are in he midst of. No need to go into much detail .. but I do not think it a reach to be able to do as Dr. Parker did above even if it be impossible to be physically present to do so. Spiritually and prayerfully ... effortless.

On a side note, had a very peculiar dream last week, sparse in the details but was being 'groomed' into some sort of new job or ministry or something or another ... very strange and difficult to ascertain, whether these men were 'true' of manipulative ... at any rate they made mention of "C. Jack Forrest" and I said, "Oh yes, I know him! A dear brother who lives in .... etc." and he went on to state something about "Charles Jack Forrest" as a sort of historical figure ...

I have no idea what it all might have meant ... :-)

crsschk wrote:
On a side note, had a very peculiar dream last week, sparse in the details but was being 'groomed' into some sort of new job or ministry or something or another ... very strange and difficult to ascertain, whether these men were 'true' of manipulative ... at any rate they made mention of "C. Jack Forrest" and I said, "Oh yes, I know him! A dear brother who lives in .... etc." and he went on to state something about "Charles Jack Forrest" as a sort of historical figure ...

I have no idea what it all might have meant ... :-)

Two possibilities, Mike. Either God is "grooming" you for coming to Australia, to partner in ministry down here, or you need to be careful when eating pizza past bed time. ;-)

Regarding C Jack Forrest, I don't know if I told you, but the name CJaKfOrEsT came about as a typo, when trying to come up with a gaming handle. Now it's just a name that I know won't be taken. I have a friend who uses "all_the_names_were_taken1" as his name, for similar reasons, although his is funnier.

My user name has no bearing on anything whatsoever. Sorry, I have never heard of Charles, and a Google search yielded nothing either. Nice to know that I'm making appearance in your dreams, though. :-P

Nice to know that I'm making appearance in your dreams, though.

More interesting as the preoccupation at the time was quite elsewhere to be honest ... plus it wasn't on pizza night ;-)

The men there gave off this mysterious ... something... It was either manipulation or ... What it left me with was a sort of system of thought they were keeping hidden, a kind of "you will find out" later kind of intention. Needless to say that aroused the suspicions, 'is this some sort of cult?' The tension that was felt was also that I couldn't be too quick to judge as they had a certain genuine-ness that contradicted all that ... Another one of those held in abayennce type things. Recall they had a real nice library ...

Two possibilities, Mike. Either God is "grooming" you for coming to Australia, to partner in ministry down here, or you need to be careful when eating pizza past bed time.

Diane,

For all of the little girls and boys that were sexually abused before they had heard of sex, there is a confusion unrelated to the sexual experience. And I can only tell the female side of the equation.

Mostly, we don't know what happened, except that we were told not to talk about it. Often, it is a one time thing, Praise God, but the memory is then repressed for a time.

One doesn't remember what happened exactly, but it has been found in some studies that early rape can trigger early sexual development. I hit menarche at 9, just two years after my experience. And we, who have been molested, but don't understand what happened, slide into sexuality as if coming home.

There is often an acceleration of sexual desire as a point of reassurance. Promiscuity results.

And episode after episode gets added on in the subconscious of each little girl and boy. Since the sex never leads to love, we assume that the lack of love inspired is our fault. We begin to hate who we are because no one else loves us in a way we can understand.

And predators, usually being victims themselves, know to choose the youngsters with the least affection and consequence in their family unit.

Most of females, at least, do not turn into predators, exactly. We rack up a lot of one night stands, beginning very early. And each occasion, although usually sexually satisfactory, has no followup. We begin not to expect it, because we are too horrible to be loved. We will begin to hunt down partners, but they are voluntary abusers of our self-hatred. All they know is that we were on the prowl.

For me, in my late teens and early to mid twenties, I was on the hunt, sighting game. Nothing more. I didn't really believe in love of any kind. I had been clinically depressed since I was 9, evidently as I came to maturity, and my subconscious, at least, understood what was going on.

I was an object d'art, to be used, valued for my beauty and my skills, then put back on the shelf. In my family, emotions were forbidden, so I didn't even know how much I hated myself until psychology advanced sufficiently for the psychologists to even understand the problem. That was when I was about 28. That was 12 years of sexual action to deal with, and I wasn't being paid!

Oddly, I was in a social circle in which I blossomed early, and dated really nice college guys. And somewhere along the way, they would remember I was an underage virgin, from a good family, and drag themselves away from me, bless them!

But after my first love affair, which had been truly wonderful, however sinful, I spiraled into man after man. Rejection of me, after I gave all I had, was reason enough to hate myself. Why shouldn't I? I assumed everyone else did. Actually, they took no more notice of me than the next girl; entertaining, but not worth getting to know. After all it was the 70's, and the sexual revolution was in full swing.

I started working with psychologists at 17. They knew nothing at that time. By the time they did, I was 28, and found a Psychiatrist that had gone into psychology because of his depression in med school.

He knew the pattern. He got me to see that my hate, and my killing anger, was directed at me! Not that poor kid of thirteen who triggered my odyssey. Not the many lovers I had. To me, the person at fault was me, and deserved death.

The anger is caused by a lack of perceived value. it doesn't matter how much someone may value you. You do not believe it, for if to yourself you have no value, how can anyone value you? Even God!

Oddly, because of my familial custom of total emotional repression, I didn't try to hurt myself. But I found that psychiatrist just at the time when I was considering nightly who to crash head on in an auto accident to get it all over with. I just never could get over the white line. God's Angels, I suppose.

At this level of anger, you actually understand where Jeffrey Dalhmer was coming from. Not the eating of bodies of course, but the anger that caused the killings. Because you are that angry. The difference is that Dalhmer turned his anger outward. Most of the rest of us turn our anger inward, first to depression, then to a self killing rage. And if you remember, Dahlmer's victims were young, homosexual men, probably victims as children, all of them.

How do you get out of the anger? For me it three years of slowly letting a Psychiatrist drag the information out of me, until I had heard it all, and understood what had happened.

That doesn't get rid of it. It just makes you aware. And the appropriate medication makes life bearable.

Even with spiritual healing, often the body is permanently damaged, requiring the depression medications to function. But the spiritual healing, Praise God, brings laughter, and love, and a kind of healing. A few women get complete physical restoration if they are stopped as a teen, before too many men have rejected them, despite their beauty, intelligence, personality, and genuine desire to be loved.

The men automatically know that a woman who gives herself too easily is messed up in some way. They don't know or care what or why, but something in them just knows. It's not bad girl/good girl exactly. But somehow, the men know. They don't know they've added to the damage.

What happens next? Boundaries. Like I am mine, and I choose when you touch me and where.

Next thing I know I was married to a man who adored me until the car crash changed our lives. But that's another story.

After boundaries, comes God. Or with God, comes boundaries. Perhaps they come together, for some.

Although baptised at 15 at my choice, no family involvement, I was misdirected into the occult. Another long story.

Got out of all the back and forth between Jesus and Lucifer in 1998. Another long story! (I've got lots - my life has been a soap opera!)

Studied Godstuff very seriously from 1998 to 2006, added to my 28 year exploration of Catholicism and Christianity, when God called me to ministry, my little web site for non-churchy types that still want Jesus.

And God's not done. A lot is happening.

I've been a lay counselor for over twenty five years, with God hanging in all the way. Jesus never let go, but He'd let the line out whenever Lucifer asked me out again. Another long story.

But Anger? Self Anger? It's not guilt. It's not shame. Those are mild worlds for people who want to soft pedal the issue.

If you really want to kill yourself, and if you are trying, or so depressed that you are considering it, you are trying to do so to rid the world of the horrible person that you are.

The only way back is the hard way, re-exploring all that happened and how it made you feel.

And then somewhere, somehow, you begin to acquire value for yourself. And you learn to laugh.

Diane, I hope this helps.

Blessings,

What a post, UWRev! There are many points to expound on.

It's wonderful that you are using the web to minister into these issues. One good thing about the web - it provides a "safety net" - there can be a measure of vulnerability with those not too close (potential sources of rejection - ex from family, church, employees). It also fills in where our professionals cannot - as they are too overloaded already, or have their own ungodly agendas. We need Spirit-filled lay ministry people in this area - those willing to put relationship ahead of religious stuff.

One point still keeps me wondering:

But Anger? Self Anger? It's not guilt. It's not shame. Those are mild worlds for people who want to soft pedal the issue.

I think it must tie in with forgiveness - central to our faith.

Diane

Diane,

You are right about the un-forgiveness. While we are in anger with ourselves or others, we cannot even imagine forgiveness, much less acceptance, and praying for all the people involved.

That is the spiritual healing I was talking about, that enables you to live and laugh again, despite possible physical dependence on depression medications.

BrianMira was blessed to throw all the agony at Christ's feet, but said that God had told him/her too.

God has given me three distinct miracles to heal me from my car accident, and all the residual problems that remain from before all of that. But when I asked for more, God said, as he did to Paul, 'My grace is sufficient for you."

So there I rest, trying to live in God's grace, and hear His directions for me during this time of chastisement and growth.

But for Aaron and Rachel, it is a seperate thing, a seperate, and different set of circumstances. We probably have nothing in common except a single similar personal attack in our childhood.

How we each cope is different, but I was trying to say that words can sometimes not even touch the reality of what one person feels. I only know that pain is pain, and we all suffer from it in some way. For Aaron and Rachel, it is their own personal hell to climb out of.

At my time of depression I had no one to love me, and consequently no one to hurt, yet God continually reminded me that I had no right to attack my parents in this way, to reject them so destructively, even if that was not my intent. It may have been...too many years have passed for me to know.

But in the anger, these things get set aside.
If only it were just guilt and shame. Getting through would be so much easier.

I must say, though, that getting to the point where you begin to like yourself because you have begun to understand how much God loves you, is quite something, a great blessing.

And these days, when I talk to God, sometimes it is about His pain at our behavior. I cannot weep for revival, only for God's pain at the lack of it.

I hate seeing the end times come into place, then I talk to God, and I feel His pain that He has suppressed, and the wrath that will pour out over an ungrateful world. Even just mentioning it brings tears to my eyes, for His pain is becoming my pain, just as my pain was always His. And the anger of God? Blessedly, an outward anger, and just in it's object. I could not be so discerning.

I am merely grateful to have my anger at me dwindling, and my love for me growing. All the work of the Lord. All of it, for it was He who put the right people in my may, the right trials in my way, and then was there to catch me each time I fell. May His name be blessed.

Still praying for Aaron and Rachel - How could I not, even only having a tiny clue of what they are going through, for each experience is different, and each pain beyond measure.

Diane, thank you for digging out the details, that it might help someone.

Blessings,

Aaron,

I am continuing to pray for you and Rachael, that her situation stabilizes and that peace may envelop you both.

Blessings,

UniqueWebRev said,

I talk to God, and I feel His pain that He has suppressed, and the wrath that will pour out over an ungrateful world. Even just mentioning it brings tears to my eyes, for His pain is becoming my pain, just as my pain was always His.

Today I am meditating on Nehemiah 1:1- 11, and I can see some striking parallels to the words you have expressed. Nehemiah wept for days when he heard the bad news about the broken walls and burnt gates in Jerusalem. It was a picture of shame and disgrace – the results of wicked powers humiliating a once proud nation some 70 years earlier.

What catches my attention is the process Nehemiah underwent during his subsequent days and nights of mourning, fasting, and praying before God. As his eyes lifted towards God, his attention shifted – from the earthly troubles to the spiritual issue behind them. He recalled the covenant promises, the conditions, the consequences, etc. He saw clearly the bigger picture behind those broken walls: spiritual failure, and divine judgment. Really, it was not about walls at all, but about heart conditions.

And today, the symptoms of our human wretchedness contain that same hidden message. It is not merely about physical walls (health, etc) or psychological boundaries, but as you said earlier – it is about our need for God. This is not to ignore the need for establishing good “fences” in order to facilitate spiritual healing (the process of repentance).

After boundaries, comes God. Or with God, comes boundaries. Perhaps they come together, for some.

Indeed, there is no magic formula. God weaves innumerable factors together; we can’t begin to grasp his ways. We just carry out our God-given roles. Yes, there is a place for pills, crutches, support and protection from loved ones, including society in general. Just like there is a place for babygates –not to punish the child for being “so irresponsible”, but to protect him. It’s been said, “The ones who deserve love the least need it the most.” We are so quick to apply the “deserved punishment” method. It doesn’t usually work.

And about forgiveness, I am becoming more and more impressed with the fact that full, deep forgiveness is impossible humanly speaking, and must come from God. We receive Christ’s forgiveness and participate in it. We let God forgive them through us. What a calling that is!! It is the path to healing and freedom of both ourselves and others. If only we would see more of that!

And the anger of God? Blessedly, an outward anger, and just in it's object

Do I make any sense?

Diane

It has occurred to me that I haven't updated you guys on our situation for a while, which is unfair to those who have been faithful in prayer. My humble apologies.

Things have not so much changed, and yet they have. Rach is still in a volatile place, however God has been working His patience in me in great measure. It has been a while since she has made an actual suicide attempt, however there have been many times that she has driven off in her car to do so, only to change her mind and come back.

God has finally started to show me the reality of "Rest(ing) in the Lord, and wait(ing) patiently for Him" (Ps 37:7). There have been times in the past when Rach drove off, and I spent the night searching for her. Now, before I go to bed, I send her an SMS letting her know how much I love her, and that I'll wait patiently for her to be ready to contact me.

This may sound a little cold and complacent, but the last attempt that she made, I spent the night driving around looking for her, and when she was found, I was about two minutes from home. My time would have been better spent resting at home, awaiting news. That way I would have had more energy when I had to sit by her hospital bed, waiting for her to wake up.

Either God can and will keep her, or not. That has become the overriding philosophy. Interesting thing is, I have noticed that since taking this stance, her episodes have greatly decreased in duration and intensity. God is indeed faithful.

The thing is, it is only the controlled reactions that are keeping things together. Rach is still staying with her counsellors family. The kids have just gone back to my parents' house, after spending the past two weeks here, while mum and dad were away on holiday (I had to take annual leave).

I was relating things to a friend tonight, and the simplest way I can put it is that it is like Rach has put all these traumatic experiences away into boxes, and she has reached the point where it is near impossible to regulate her reactions when one of them "opens up". She has been opening one at a time, processing the emotions, etc attached, and then has a moment of everything being alright, until she opens the next box.

This is why I say that "not so much changed", because there are still a lot of boxes. However, I strongly believe that this matter will be resolved suddenly, when she can come to the practical realisation that these traumatic events do not have to dictate to her who she is. Right now, she looks at these events, explodes into rage, for example, and then labels herself as a bad mother, wife, daughter, etc, because of her actions when she is angry. Then, seeing as she "is a bad mother, wife, etc", she might as well act like one. "You all should hate me, because I hate myself" she thinks, and then she goes on to prove the point, by working hard at getting us to hate her.

Seeing through this is quite liberating, in that when she says and does deliberately hurtful things, it is only because she loves us so much that she thinks we'd be better off apart from her. Once she calms down, and the dust settles, she apologises and thanks us for our patience. Last week she even went to the trouble of writing myself, and the kids a letter each, so that we "had proof" that she loves us.

Meanwhile, it continues. She often asks me, "Will this ever end?" Fact is, the Lord only knows. But I tell her the truth when I say, "Of course it will." Whether by her episodes stopping, or her perspective changing, I firmly believe that the Lord will finish what He has begun. The doctors say five years, and seem to add another year every time she sees them, but her counsellor always wisely adds, "Don't forget that they don't know God. So of course they'd think that."

Your prayers are still coveted and appreciated. Thank you to those who have reassured me that you are still praying. It is not necessary, but it certainly fills my heart with joy, to know that I'm not alone in this. :-)

Dear Aaron,

I am so relieved that you are seeing that this is Rachel's struggle, and that all you can do is love her despite everything.

Yes, I continue to pray, and will continue.

How well I remember all the compartments I had things stuffed into, and how scary each one of them was, and how hard to cope with. My psychiatrist called it the 'monsters coming out of the closet'.

Oddly, that is a misperception. In a weird way, inside each box is a replaying mental video, that shows us what we hate, what we are in pain about, our anger at others, and ourselves for our failure to be able to deal with it, much less get to the end of it all. The problem is, the videos are all stretched out of shape and proportion, and we freak out at what we see, thinking that what we see is true.

Rach will probably open all the boxes in turn, over and over, eventually discarding this box, and that one, as untrue.

Your acceptence of her and continous valuing of her is exactly what she needs, and has always needed.

I am grateful for progress, and will continue to pray for more.

Blessings,

Forrest

roadsign wrote:
UniqueWebRev said,

I talk to God, and I feel His pain that He has suppressed, and the wrath that will pour out over an ungrateful world. Even just mentioning it brings tears to my eyes, for His pain is becoming my pain, just as my pain was always His.

Diane, I mispoke myself. The pain was what God showed me was what was there, not what God feels. Yet he has told me that He doesn't like all the pain and suffering. Oh, but the wrath is there, and I'm beginning to get a tiny idea of just how bad that wrath will be.

Edit: Actually, reviewing what I said, I'm standing with what I originally said...I do not know that the pain is God the Father's, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, or whether they are showing me the totality of the pain that is out there. This is very unlike the experience when God was amused with me for trying to comfort Him, as if I could. But the feeling of the overwhelming pain is there, and is, unfortunately, given to me to feel, although blessedly for such a brief period of time that I can understand it and not be overwhelmed by it.

However, the sensation of the pain being bound up with God, our pain in Him, as we are in Jesus, and as Jesus is in God, is still valid.

I am trying very carefully not to claim the wrong sensations here - and describing them is even more difficult to define. But the kind of pain I feel is very much like is described in the Bible as the earth groaning, except it is related to people. And to the extent that I, through the Holy Spirit can sense Jesus, who is in God the Father, the sensation of pain is still valid. I will not claim that this pain is God's...I do know that the pain is overwhelming, as is the sensation of peaking wrath in the distance. And I will not claim that I can do anything about it, except report that it is there, and God is involved with it in some way, and since I have heard Him say so in another situation, I know He doesn't like all the pain I am being shown a tiny glimpse of, because He has said so.

Speaking of the feelings that God gives anyone to experience is difficult. However, when I wrote the original paragraph, it was true, and it still rings true. End Edit

Today I am meditating on Nehemiah 1:1- 11, and I can see some striking parallels to the words you have expressed. Nehemiah wept for days when he heard the bad news about the broken walls and burnt gates in Jerusalem. It was a picture of shame and disgrace – the results of wicked powers humiliating a once proud nation some 70 years earlier.

What catches my attention is the process Nehemiah underwent during his subsequent days and nights of mourning, fasting, and praying before God. As his eyes lifted towards God, his attention shifted – from the earthly troubles to the spiritual issue behind them. He recalled the covenant promises, the conditions, the consequences, etc. He saw clearly the bigger picture behind those broken walls: spiritual failure, and divine judgment. Really, it was not about walls at all, but about heart conditions.

And today, the symptoms of our human wretchedness contain that same hidden message. It is not merely about physical walls (health, etc) or psychological boundaries, but as you said earlier – it is about our need for God. This is not to ignore the need for establishing good “fences” in order to facilitate spiritual healing (the process of repentance).

Sadly, one cannot distinguish between them while you are in pain and anger. It all gets distorted, and frankly, God makes very little sense. It's not that God wouldn't help, it;s that we, in our anguish, focus on the anguish, and do not ask God for help.

After boundaries, comes God. Or with God, comes boundaries. Perhaps they come together, for some.

Indeed, there is no magic formula. God weaves innumerable factors together; we can’t begin to grasp his ways. We just carry out our God-given roles. Yes, there is a place for pills, crutches, support and protection from loved ones, including society in general. Just like there is a place for babygates –not to punish the child for being “so irresponsible”, but to protect him. It’s been said, “The ones who deserve love the least need it the most.” We are so quick to apply the “deserved punishment” method. It doesn’t usually work.

And about forgiveness, I am becoming more and more impressed with the fact that full, deep forgiveness is impossible humanly speaking, and must come from God. We receive Christ’s forgiveness and participate in it. We let God forgive them through us. What a calling that is!! It is the path to healing and freedom of both ourselves and others. If only we would see more of that!

And the anger of God? Blessedly, an outward anger, and just in it's object

But unwrapping all the peripheral objects of anger and coming to the root of our anger is a long process. Would you not say that anger at God is a root? Certainly that has been the case for me. I had to come to a point of crying out to God: “God why aren’t YOU doing something better about these problems!?! After all, YOU are the only one who can fix it (or could have prevented these horrible things from happening)!! God, pull up YOUR socks!!!” We need to forgive God – not because he did anything wrong, but because we accuse him of it. And we have to allow each other that process. At least that’s the way I see it.

Do I make any sense?

Diane

Oh, yes, indeed. Although, in my case, I didn't even think to blame God. I blamed me, for not being able to understand. Because, after all, I was this brilliant person who was soooo smart, therefore, it was me that was at fault.

It took me years to figure out that God could, and would help me, if I would just let Him. I was so enveloped in pride that I thought everything was my fault, as if I could bring all that happened to me about.

But in the end, I did need to forgive God for being God, and not 'explaining'. And I have yet to completely forgive myself entirely for making the mess I was in worse with my conviction that I could solve it all.

It's so hard to understand the mixture of causes in each case, without knowing every iota of their experience. The forgiveness, of self, of God, of others varies so much on who the person sees as the cause of all their pain.

But in the end, all have to be forgiven for true healing.

I still have not entirely forgiven myself, and don't know how to yet. But the Holy Spirit is working on it, and if worse comes to worse, I'll be fine in that gloriefied body, as soon as God will let me have it. I hope it is very soon, for I will enjoy it so much. But then, I enjoy much here, and I have work to do.

If only I could have the gloriefied body to do the work in...now, would that be terrific? And it is what we'll be doing in the Millenium. I do so look forward to it!

My problem is I want to go home NOW! And I know I'm not supposed to. Still, it can't be that long, and fortunately, I am not very young. Odd to be glad that your life is heading towards it's close, yet still enjoying so much of living.

Blessings,

Forrest

P.S. Sorry I missed the post at the time you posted it - I probably lost track of where I was.

CJaKfOrEsT:
God is indeed faithful.

Dear brother Aaron, the Lord our God may bless you and your family!

Psa 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Psa 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
Psa 18:32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
Psa 18:33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.
Psa 18:34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.
Psa 18:35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.

I'll wait patiently for her

Dear Aaron, thank you for the update brother. You know, a lot of this has been very helpful here as well. A lot of similarites brother. The out take above was something that took some time to sink in, but it was something that Lisa had asked; "Be patient with me."

Turning our trust over brother and waiting patiently ... praying without ceasing. Much love to you brother. My prayers for you all.

P.S. You are absolutely correct here; [i]But I tell her the truth when I say, "Of course it will." Whether by her episodes stopping, or her perspective changing, I firmly believe that the Lord will finish what He has begun.[/i] Amen.

Hi all,

It has been a long while since I have updated this thread, and so I feel it is important to post again.

Much has transpired since my last post here. There has been many ups and downs as Rach continues to deal with her issues. Add to that a major stomach condition that appears to be similar to crohn's disease, but not, and lets just say that life has been quite an adventure.

My post here is to ask for a specific area of prayer. I won't go into too much detail, as I don't want to invite debate on the matter, but let's just say that what can only be described as an Occultic element has surfaced into the equation.

I also won't go into too much detail here, because there are some people that I can't let know what is going on.

I simply ask for your prayers, an invite anyone who has had any dealings with SRA to contact me privately (I use the acronym so to weed out the pretenders;-)).

She made a suicide attempt today. Apparently she has only gotten 3 hours sleep since Sunday.

Please pray.

Brother...

My heart and prayers go on with you.

Oh Lord . . .

I will be praying brother.

Praying, brother. I will spread the word to pray.

Hi,

Just dropping a quick update. Rach had to go into hospital last night, with a bowel obstruction. Had it sorted out surgically today. Now back from hospital, went to Christmas gathering with people she's staying with, as if nothing happened. Please pray that the Lord will keep her, and protect her, so that she can come to our small family gathering tomorrow, and that all wil go smoothly.

Thank you :-)

Dan 9:19

Portions of this brother, if it might go without articulation ...

Rach has just taken off in her car, and has threatened to strangle herself. In my last post about her suicide attempt, she had to be resuscitated. This time she is on her on.

Please pray.

Praying.

Rach came back last night, and is okay (well..you know). The events of last night led to an opening for her to be assisted by a ministry that has has a lot of dealing in the kind of this that she is affected by.

Thank you for your prayers.

Continuing in prayer.