Ted Haggard...

I was skeptical at first, reading the article on [url=http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-11-03T042335Z_01_N02276787_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-EVANGELICAL-SCANDAL.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-2]reuters[/url]. But it looks like there may be some [url=http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/4557411.html]truth[/url] to the accusations.

After a day of whirlwind controversy surrounding New Life Church and its leader Ted Haggard, who went on administrative leave earlier Thursday, the acting Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley tells KKTV 11 News that Pastor Haggard has admitted to some of the indiscretions.

Thursday morning, Mike Jones went on a Denver radio talk show and said Pastor Haggard paid him for sex over the past 3 years. Jones also claims Haggard did drugs with him. Pastor Parsley says Haggard admitted that some of the allegations are true, but not all of them. The church is not saying what Haggard admitted to.

Right now, the situation is under investigation by an independent panel of leaders from four outside churches. The leaders are from Colorado Springs, Larkspur, Westminster and Louisiana. The panel's role is to decide if Haggard will be exonerated, released from his duties or restored to his pastorship.

It's such a shame if there is any truth to these accusations... but what's more shameful is how many Christians, weak in their faith, who will be effected by this man's sin. How many skeptics will add this to their pile of reasons not to trust in a loving God.

I [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12598&forum=48]commented the other day[/url] that sexual sin exhists in our churches. Well I don't claim to be prophetic, but this should be a wake up call to us evangelicals to clean out our own closets before we go crusading against others. [no pun intended]

Let's remember those who will be most effected by this, the sheep in that church, those who have trusted their shepherd, and will be very confused right now... I hope that they will find comfort in their savior where man has failed them.

yes, those sheep were my first thoughts too. it is going to be hard, that is such a betrayal of trust.

this also reminds me of Jesus warning us so much in the New Testament about the church leaders. we need to be careful, He says many of them are hypocrits (like actors). We need to be in the bible and following Jesus for ourselves, not relying on the leaders so much, I believe the leaders are overrated. Jesus is the christian's true leader, and He warns about so many things.

It seems that he saying it is a liberal hit job, which is what I suspect, just a few days till election with a marriage amendment on the ballot, with him being one of the top supporters....oh yeah, I can believe this is a hit job. But if not, I pray that he repents and takes the necessary steps toward reconciliation with the father.

The accuser failed a lie detector test, check this link out:

[url=http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0%2C1299%2CDRMN_15_5115625%2C00.html]Haggard's Accuser Fails Polygraph[/url]

Hello, my dear and faithful Christians. I just wanted to share something from my heart concerning my former pastor (I now go to his son's church - still under the umbrella of New Life, though). While there is a depth of sadness towards the allegations as a whole, there is one thing I know and that he, just like the rest of us are not perfect. While these allegations aren't things we want in our churches, satan will always try and find a way to tempt us all. During this time it has cause me to reflect upon my own life as a former pastor's kid myself. I know that I have had my own share of frailties.

May this be a time of reflection upon our own lives. Let's pray for him and his family, and may the outcome ultimately lead to God's glory.

Amen Ben

bartle wrote:
For years now, the NAE, Haggard, and numerous other "evangelicals" have wedded themselves to the republican party that found out YEARS ago, that the way to "victory" was thru character assassination.

I didnt hear anybody say a word, when that awful rascist attack ad was leveled at Congressman Harold Ford Jr of Tennesse not two weeks ago, where Ken Mehlman and a feller named Fisher cooked up an attack ad, that had a white girl cooing about how she met "Harold" (who is black) at the playboy party, and then finishes off the ad by again cooing, "call me Harold".

and all this to a man, who is a professed follower of Jesus, Harold Ford stood up at the end of the last debate, and publicly professed his faith, and asked the audience not only for their votes, but for their prayers.

Now since Ford is black and Democrat, and running neck in neck with Bob Corker the republican attack machine got scared, and ran this filth, and you speak of "liberal hit jobs"?

I am proud to a Democrat, the party that gave the nation a President like FDR, who took a rural south, that was reeling under the Depression, and poured billions of dollars into a region that was HARDEST hit by this economic calamity, programs that worked, that put good men and women to work, rural electrification, the TVA, i could go on and on.

and now you in Virginia, will you be voting for a Senator, that refers to another human being as a "macaca"?.....lets not even talk about Allen.

Lets talk about pastors, who take the provisions of God and wed them to a political party, to rub up against power, and to play the game....and now, they are ALL getting exposed.

God is so good, and if you don't think that this gay male escort has a money/paper/phone record and email trail, think again. That "pastor" stood in front of a camera with a weird phony smile and denied everything, and the next day his assisitant senior pastor, with the same goofy grin, and said that the "pastor" had admitted to "some indiscretions" with this man.......and everybodies saying pray for Haggard?

what about the 14,000 members of that church, some of whom might be stumbled FOR LIFE, some of whom labour under their own sin, and look to a church leader as a "model", said church leader being one of the most vociferous critics of "gay marriage", and HE'S the one having sexual relations with another man?

poltically motivated?

you bet it is, God is so good, that He is exposing the rank hypocrisy that has been festering in the ranks of the "white evangelical church" for years now, screaming about "gay marriage", let the homosexual's have their "civil unions", let God deal with each to his own, and move on, and lets start talking about the children, CHILDREN in this nation that don't have medical insurance, or the children in this nation who go to school without breakfast, lets talk about a permament working class poor we are creating all the while giving BILLIONS of dollars to the already megarich, while we run up deficits that cripple our children's future......is that liberal to you?

I plead guilty.

How many paychecks can you miss without going hungry? You got a nice nest egg built up? What if your pension fund was looted, or your medical insurance taken away?....would you still be talking about "liberal hit job's"?

the republican play book has always been about character assassination, what happened to Haggard was that his hypocrisy was exposed to the light for all to see, maybe these pastors better start to realize that if you play with fire, and that fire being politics, you play with fire, you get burned......and Haggard better start trembling coz Jesus Himself talked about the millstone around the neck for those that cause these lil ones to stumble.

Matt, please...please please, don't take my post to you as a personal assualt, I beg you in Jesus' Name, I'm just grieved to my core about the WHOLE PICTURE, it has nothing to do with you personally. i don't take glee at Ted Haggard's travails, God forbid, I am just sick of this whole unholy marriage between the republican party, and what has become to be called "evangelicals"..would to God that believers start to realize, give to caesar what is caesar's and to God what is God's.....that's why we must seperate our Church, the Body of Christ, from politics.

If one is Christian, a follower of Jesus, and wants to go into politics, thats fine, but expect to be burned, because you will be consorting and playing with power, worldly power, and we know who the god of this world is, and it aint Yahweh, it aint Jesus, its the tempter.

Thanks for letting me vent Matt, please know that you have my love in Christ, bartle

I guess the only thing I have to say to this is that, by your statement it requires me and the other 13999 members to place Pastor Ted on a pedestal. If Christians are going to stumble over this, then they need to repent for worshiping Pastor Ted, rather then God. Remember that WE ARE ALL MEMEBERS OF ONE BODY AND THAT CHRIST IS THE HEAD. If people are going to stumble over this, they are saved for the wrong reason.

Evangelical Leader Admits to Buying Meth, Receiving Massage From Gay Escort

Friday , November 03, 2006
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — Embattled national evangelical leader the Rev. Ted Haggard admitted Friday that he bought methamphetamines and received a massage from a gay prostitute, but denies he ever used the drug or had sex with the man.

"I bought it for myself but never used it," Haggard told reporters gathered outside his home. "I was tempted but I never used it."

Haggard, 50, a married father of five, who resigned his post as head of the thirty million member National Association of Evangelicals, said he never had sex with Mike Jones, a 49-year-old gay escort who claims to have had a drug-laced three year tryst with Haggard.

Haggard, who was leaving his home with his wife and three of his five children, said he bought the methamphetamine because he was curious. He claimed he threw it away.

Haggard earlier claimed charges against him were untrue, and were political retribution for his campaign in support of a state constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

Haggard, pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church, announced his resignation on Thursday.

"I am voluntarily stepping aside from leadership so that the overseer process can be allowed to proceed with integrity," Haggard said in a statement. "I hope to be able to discuss this matter in more detail at a later date. In the interim, I will seek both spiritual advice and guidance."

Haggard also gave up his post at the church.

A pastor at Haggard's church, Ross Parsley, sent an e-mail to congregants saying Haggard "confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true."

"It is important for you to know that he confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true. He has willingly and humbly submitted to the authority of the board of overseers, and will remain on administrative leave during the course of the investigation," the e-mail stated. A copy was obtained by KMGH-TV in Denver.

Late Wednesday, Haggard told KUSA-TV: "I've never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I'm steady with my wife, I'm faithful to my wife."

Among the allegations made by Jones was that Haggard paid him for sex and snorted methamphetamine with him before their sexual encounters to heighten the experience.

Jones said he decided to go public with his story because of Haggard's opposition to the proposed state ban on gay marriage.

"I just want people to step back and take a look and say, 'Look, we're all sinners, we all have faults, but if two people want to get married, just let them, and let them have a happy life,'" said Jones, who added that he is gay and is not working for any political group.

"It made me angry that here's someone preaching about gay marriage and going behind the scenes having gay sex," he said.

Colorado voters will decide on the gay-marriage ban amendment when they vote next Tuesday.

Jones claimed Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month over three years. He said he advertised himself as an escort on the Internet and was contacted by a man who called himself Art.

Jones said he later saw the man on television identified as Haggard and that the two last had sex in August.

He said he has voice mail messages from Haggard, as well as an envelope he said Haggard used to mail him cash. He declined to make the voice mails available to the AP, but KUSA-TV reported what it said were excerpts late Thursday that referred to methamphetamine.

"Hi Mike, this is Art," one call began, according to the station. "Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply."

A second message, left a few hours later, began: "Hi Mike, this is Art, I am here in Denver and sorry that I missed you. But as I said, if you want to go ahead and get the stuff, then that would be great. And I'll get it sometime next week or the week after or whenever."

Carolyn Haggard, spokeswoman for the New Life Church and the pastor's niece, said a four-member church panel will investigate the allegations. The board has the authority to discipline Haggard, including removing him from ministry work.

The allegations stunned church members.

"It's political, right before the elections," said Brian Boals, a New Life member for 17 years.

Church member E.J. Cox, 25, called the claims "ridiculous."

"People are always saying stuff about Pastor Ted," she said. "You just sort of blow it off. He's just like anyone else in the public eye."

Haggard, 50, was appointed president of the evangelicals association in March 2003. He has participated in conservative Christian leaders' conference calls with White House staffers and lobbied members of Congress last year on U.S. Supreme Court appointees after Sandra Day O'Connor announced her retirement.

After Massachusetts legalized gay marriage in 2004, Haggard and others began organizing state-by-state opposition. Last year, Haggard and officials from the nearby Christian ministry Focus on the Family announced plans to push Colorado's gay marriage ban for the 2006 ballot.

At the time, Haggard said that he believed marriage is a union between a man and woman rooted in centuries of tradition, and that research shows it's the best family unit for children.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Copyright 2006 FOX News Network, LLC. All rights reserved.

If Christians are going to stumble over this, then they need to repent for worshiping Pastor Ted, rather then God.

I don't think it necessarily follows that becauses someone stumbles over this regrettable situation, that they've placed him on a 'pedestal." I'm thinking here of the young neophytes who were under his daily influence, those under his discipleship.

Bartle, have you read [url=http://www.amazon.com/Tempting-Faith-Inside-Political-Seduction/dp/0743287126/sr=1-1/qid=1162585492/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9576603-5878512?ie=UTF8&s=books]Tempting Faith: An Inside Story of Political Seduction[/url]? It was a hot topic in the news for awhile, but it seems to have been cast into oblivion.

Rob

BARTLE,

and now you in Virginia, will you be voting for a Senator, that refers to another human being as a "macaca"?.....lets not even talk about Allen.

WOW! First off, I am not republican or democrat. I will NOT vote this year, I am exercising my right to not vote. I should have cleared myself when I said liberal hitjob. I wasnt referring to liberals in general, I was more referring to liberals, or left wing extremists ie communists, gay rights activists...that was really who I was talking about...not liberals in general, so I apologize my friend.

Bartle,

Allen isn't the only person who is running a crummy campaign, Webb, and his goonies have been following Allen trying to catch him in perdicaments, so they can show the world how Allen is a racist, which is pitaful...I would be annoyed too, although I would not call anyone a meccaca, even though he probably didn't even know what that meant.

oh well, I will not talk politics further with you Bartle, even though you love it. ( ;-) )

Amen Greg,

I get fustrated every time I talk about politics, especially now, please pray for me that this won't cause me or any brothers to stumble.

Bartle,

God bless you Brother, I was never offended...you seem to have a cool job.

Anyways, have a good weekend brother, don't be so cold up there.

-Matt

This almost reminds me of Clinton's testimony where he would never admit what it was. (Ted's Confession)

This whole thing grieves me because it's another bullet the world has in their ammunition against us. (big bullet)

Then I think who am I not to fall?? Am I too good for that? Only God can keep me. I really feel bad for him, family, and his congregation.

I think of Kirk Franklin going on Oprah and confessing his porno addiction, even after concerts praising Jesus. And Oprah said, "You see why we think of Christians as hypocrites?"

There was a season of my Christian life where it was very sinful season and God didn't expose me. I'm so grateful for that.

When do you think God says enough is enough and decides to expose you?

I first heard this news in bits and pieces at work today, and my first reaction was "I'm not surprised" (God forgive me, i don't know why i thought that). My next reaction was one of sadness, and i wanted to cry. I've never really been a follower of Ted Haggard, but this hurt me. I realized that any one of us can fall into sin (i have, any more confessors?). All we can do is pray for him, his family, his Church, and ourselves, for "let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall".

To echo the words of William Booth "Send the fire today! To burn up every trace of sin, to bring the Light and glory in. The revolution now begin. Lord send the fire today!"

I think you bring up a very good point.
If Ted Haggard is only telling a half truth, or denying the real truth, then he is just heeping lies on top of his original sin. He can't repent of that sin unless he's willing to admit to it.

On the first night he stated that he didn't know any male prostitute...
On the second morning he stated that he'd only gotten a massage from them.
That's a very big difference in itself! That first night he lied about having never known this person.

Rather than this turn into a farce, this is a time to come out and repent. What a strike to the gay community if he comes out and says it was WRONG, it was SINFUL, and he's in AGONY. Instead he'll just continue and deny it, and the Gay community will say 'what a hypocrite.

Just of out of curiosity...who are all these big time leaders saying they represent millions of Christians out there? Whats the deal with these celebrity church leaders in the limelight, asking for money, selling their books, inviting us to their seminars...they keep popping up like wack-a-moles. Why can't they be content pastoring their local churches? Why do they want to say that they represent 30 million Christians? Do they get a shoe deal from Nike or something?

Ted Haggard never represented me as far as I know. Maybe I unwittingly checked a square or punched a hanging chad or something on the back of one of those church visitor cards in recent years. I didn't even know who he was untill I saw him on that history channel program about the anti-Christ. I imagine that half of the 30 million people he supposedly represented also didn't know who he was before this news break.

I wish these guys would stop claiming to represent millions of Christians just because they raised enough money to put themselves on cable access televsion. Hey, it just occured to me I might be communicating to countless people via the internet right now...so I would like to announce that I represent all the Christians in central Ohio. If your'e from Ohio and have reservations about me representing you, too bad. ;-)

MC

Jordan,

I feel what you feel, brother. This man's sin is a tremendous embarassment and I'm angry too. The Bible says that the Word of God has been weighed seven times. Each Word has been carefully purified seven times by the Spirit! We should follow this example, especially when we feel exasperated, and choose our own words wisely. Comments spoken in spiritual frustration have a tendency to come back to haunt. I would save you the humiliation by learning from my own mistakes!

With brotherly love in Christ,

Paul

I was thinking about the spectacle of famous Christian leaders in our country...it has occured to me for some time now that these famous men are really a hindrance to revival because they have to copyright and resell everything good that happens in church. The moment any remarkable revival would break out, there are always these men who want to market and sell the story to the book and music industry. Everything is a commodity...these guys just can't let God be God without seeing the growth possibilities for themselves.

I was surprised to learn from a good friend who lives in England that Christian or "religous" radio and television broadcasts are unlicensable and therefore illegal in Great Britain. At the time I thought this was a sad thing...but lately I begin wondering if it would not be a healthy thing for America.

I'm guessing the vast majority of Christian media (in America) isn't even about the Gospel anyways...it truth most of it is just vanity.

MC

I don't recall the name of the sermon off hand, but our brother Art Katz prophesied of things like this, regarding Ted Haggard, beginning to occur more and more a few years ago when the "oracle of the hour," Paul Cain was caught in an illicit homosexual relationship.

Some of you might not know Paul Cain's name very well, but, in the so-called prophetic movement there are only a couple individuals, and I do stress "couple" who were bigger leaders in this movement. Yet he was caught in a homosexual relationship and substance abuse as well. Haggard has been a major player in the prophetic movement as well, and now too appears to be caught in such a relationship as Paul Cain was. Though, the allegations regarding Haggard have yet to be fully proven, the momentum of the evidence seems to be leaning that way, especially with the "overseers" of his church now removing him based off further evidence that have.

Let us pray!!!! God help us all. God have mercy on us all. Let us my dear ministry brethren, not take shortcuts. Let's not put charisma before character. Let us be, as Katz says, "the thing in itself!"

Not to hammer this celebrity aspect too hard, but in an attempt to know more about Haggard I came across this article from his website about himself...

"Haggard's influence reaches beyond Colorado Springs. In 1996, Christianity Today magazine named him one of 50 up-and-coming evangelical leaders younger than 40.

Now 46, Haggard has the ear of prominent evangelicals such as Pat Robertson and Bill Bright. The Bush administration asked him to join other religious leaders in crafting a plan to provide social services through faith groups.

Haggard's profile will grow next year when he becomes chairman of the National Association of Evangelicals, which politicians consult to measure the concerns of conservative Christians....

Other charismatic pastors have come to Colorado Springs, but no one remembers them.

Haggard clearly has something, lots of things: a regular-guy personality, a conversational preaching style, an ad executive's marketing savvy, a drive that pushes him to pray at dawn and the kind of smile seen in a toothpaste commercial."

While we see the secret homosexuality in one man, we should also take note of the very public idolatry of many people that elevates a pastor in such a commercial fashion. In the case of Haggard, one man's sin is exposed,... but tomorrow millions of others will not notice their own idolatry in this thing as they eagely look for the next "up and coming" champion to replace Ted.

MC

All things being equal ... There is a word that we might still want to be mindful of with all this ...

Gossip

Indeed. The problem isn't simply Haggard's. Rather, it's our tendency in the body of Christ to make Super Star's out of people. And when they fall, it's as if a meteor has fallen from the heavens. God help us all.

gossip

Right you are brother...I'll stop adding to his problems. In my anger I've yet to carry concerns for Ted Haggard or his followers (edit: and my own heart in all this) to the Lord in prayer...

Let us pray!!!!

MC

We cannot judge Ted Haggard or what he has or hasn't done, thats not our place... however we will be on hand when his entire life is replayed at the judgement.

I have two thoughts to interject, and I'm too tired to look up verses. But as a leader the bible is clear that he will be judged more strictly than one not in a leadership position. Also there is a warning against leading young ones astray... it would be better to have a mill stone tied around your neck and tossed into the sea.

Ted shouldn't be afraid of anything that we say about him, or the world thinks about his situation, he should fear the Word of God! Instead of making comments out of a car window, he should get down on his knees before his church and ask for forgiveness for his indiscretion.

Hello...

I do not know much about Ted Haggart. I have been saddened by the exposure of this ordeal by the media around the world. However, I would like to remind everyone that the last page in the book of his life has not yet been written. Even if he is guilty of all that he is accused (and more), God is still able to create some good from this situation.

I have often wondered what would have happened if some of the other famous "celebrity ministers" had simply repented -- and then told the truth about their entire lives. Wouldn't it have been wonderful if Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Benny Hinn or Ted Haggert had simply said, "[i]Look -- I have really messed up! And if you're going to talk about this situation, please remember to seriously pray for me, my family, my Church and the Body of Christ. This thing is bigger than me and more than I can handle, and I really need your prayers. Please pray that I might truly know Him in his fullest[/i]." Perhaps God could still use such men because they demonstrate the grace of God. The Word of God is filled with men that have sinned miserably, repented, dusted themselves off, and performed great works for the Lord. Perhaps this man will be like David, Samson or Solomon. He could warn others about not only the sins that he partook of, but of the danger of being carried away by various winds of doctrine and of being placed upon a pedestal.

I am praying for this man, his family, and even the individuals that "followed him." By his own words, he has admitted to some terrible sin. But God can still do the impossible. He can use a repentive human being with known flaws to spread the truth -- as long as he operates in pure and humble love for our Lord. I pray that the eventual last chapter of this man's life is wonderful!

:-)

Hi Compton, hope you are well.

I was surprised to learn from a good friend who lives in England that Christian or "religous" radio and television broadcasts are unlicensable and therefore illegal in Great Britain. At the time I thought this was a sad thing...but lately I begin wondering if it would not be a healthy thing for America.

When I read this above, almost immediately a passage of scripture came to mind. I had to do some digging to find it, but here it is...

[b][color=000000] And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours....[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]....And I will bring the land into desolation....[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]....and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it....[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]...And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths....[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]...As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest....[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]....because it did not rest in your sabbaths....[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]....when ye dwelt upon it.[/color][/b]

That is sobering ChrisJD.

You know so often we graciously focus on the importance of forgiving sin in each other. We want to see how quickly the fallen leader can repent, be restored and dusted off and put back in circulation with a best-selling book about God's amazing grace....and that is a good focus to be sure but there still remains the rippling effect our sins have on other people. The bombs may have stopped falling but now we endure the lingering fallout. Soon the spiritual rads accumulate in the body...society becomes sick and eventually dies.

There is more to discuss then the forgiveness of sins. The sin is forgiven and even forgotten to a measure but there is permenence of effect. For example, I know of a business where two of the Christian principles are going through divorces at the same time...not only do their respective fammilies suffer, but the employees of their company are effected because of the drain and ruin brought upon the enterprise by vindictive parties, legal fees, emotional depletion, spiritual confusion, and lack of concern for day to day operations. And so employees, seeing the handwriting on the wall, begin to look for employment elsewhere...

This interconnectivity is a real consideration when considering the price of our sins. We hurt each other even with sins that we consider personal and private. And so we can forgive Ted Haggard, and maybe God will restore him to fellowship. (Certainly not leadership...) The damage to his wife, children, congregation, and the country at large remains. All of this is amplified by our hateful politics, with the Democrats gleefully using Haggard to take bank shots at the Republicans, and the conservative right reeling and rocking over yet another homosexual scandal...It is Lord of the Flies and Haggard's face is the boar's head on a stick that the children all dance around.

O, when will the captain of the boat return?

Adding to the backdrop of all this I just read FreeCD's transcription of Earnest O' Neils' stirring sermon on cheap grace...how modern Christians have zero impact on the nations they live in.

I am sad. At this point some may want to medicate my sadness with some bit of wisdom or alternative perspective but I think for now I''ll prefer to be sad. Considering our sorry state I think it's the only sane response.

Forgive us Lord,

MC

Well said MC, I too am sad, not just this headline here, something else. Just stalled on some meanderings, they seemed just like so much noise and confussion, we are at a low ebb and it is difficult to press down into the heart of the matter. Think you well touched on some of the same sentiment;

There is more to discuss then the forgiveness of sins.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hedging here, rather difficult to speak to something without drawing even more attention to it but ... Along with that the sense of making a qualification as to take the edge off, a stipulation, a backpedaling ... It is not those things at all.

A associated agreement by consensus is just as spurious when it is based upon assumption. As example, couldn't agree more with MC's

who are all these big time leaders saying they represent millions of Christians out there?

Interesting the political underpinning's in style even if one was to take the sheer politics right out of it. [i]By Whose authority?[/i] comes to mind. The whole of the monstrosity that was also well laid out of the production mindset of copyrights and product, of promotion and business sense ... What is this thing? For all the long speculation of the Catholic Church being the anti-christ could we be missing the forest for the tree of this modern construct for the thing itself?

All of this stuff is what drove me right out of the 'church' in the first place seeking for that which I knew existed but just had to be elsewhere. That which was and is ultimately true. Even now having come further along there is still this sense of [i]whatever it is, it's not [u]that[/u][/i]. Maybe all that is trying to be expressed here is the wonder of being ensnared by addressing the form of things without uncovering the root's or the danger of being caught up in the whirlwind of opinion but not seeing how there is a trap being made ready.

Remember how often they tried to trap the Lord? And how deftly He avoided both them and their scheme by addressing the main issue, leaving each to his own conscience? Somehow we will have to gain this same mind or we will be in an endless cycle of explaining our way out of everything that comes down the pike. Some other alternative. To say just the Lord, just Jesus is both accurate and yet difficult with the masses now convinced rightly of the sham that Christianity has been made into. What do we mean by that, just the Lord? It almost seems prudent that we would no longer speak of these kinds of matters not because they shouldn't be discussed, but that they end up being over discussed, over explained, attempted to be either appeased or condemned when we could be pointing away from the whole matter with the alternative.

Part of my own personal thinking on all this is just from taking stock of some of the past saints that we are all learning from here. T. Austin Sparks a great case in point. Rarely is it commentary on the day's news so to speak but more so on the Lord's thought. This is bound to get away from me here so I will cut it short. Gossip is the thing itself to apply it a bit differently, (borrowing King Jimmy's quoting of Art Katz, again), not so much the mechanics of it.

Indeed. The problem isn't simply Haggard's. Rather, it's our tendency in the body of Christ to make Super Star's out of people. And when they fall, it's as if a meteor has fallen from the heavens. God help us all.

I am not aware of the man or his reputation but this post reminded me of a saying of the old puritans..

"when the sun (Son) rises you won't see the stars'

2Sam. 12:7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ ”

In Christ
Jeff

Galations 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

Beloved, let us be mindful of the times in which we live and how Judgement does begin at the house of God. My prayer for this man is that he would truly come to the light of Jesus Christ, and let Christ expose his heart. That he would come to real repentance and restoration. The blood of Christ is more than enough. And that is my heart for this man sincerely. But I think you will find this not coincidental.

Ted Haggard's last Sunday Morning Sermon (Oct 29), was on 1 Samuel 16. It was about God choosing a successor for Saul, King David. And it included the fact that our disobedience can cause God to reject the calling on our lives (in context of Saul's disobedience). As well as Haggard reminding us that God does not look on the outward appearance as men do, but on the heart. (newlifechurch.org; See Podcasts, Sunday Morning)

His opening prayer included this:

"Father, we pray that lies would be exposed; we pray that deception would be exposed..."

His statement the week following (after his resignation) where he admitted sexual immorality included this: "I am a deceiver and a liar".

I don't say this in irrerevance, or gleefully, but in fear: God answered this man's prayer. And it needed to begin in his own life a long time ago. Let this be a reminder that if our preaching does not reflect a heart after God, it will be exposed as such. But if our heart is after God, and jealous for His glory, then indeed we shall be hid in Christ. And men, when they look at us will not stop at us, but will see and be drawn to the Lord Jesus Christ. Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty.

David Wilkeson, in 1986 preached a sermon (available here), called Strange Incense. In it, he suggests that if our prayers are not with clean hands and a pure heart, they become Strange Incense in the site of a Holy God, and USHERS IN JUDGEMENT. This was indeed a sobering reminder to me recently that we enter not in like Nadab and Abihu; or Uzziah. But in Humility, by the blood of Jesus Christ alone are we able to enter in the presence of the Father. If the Lord wills, you might want to give it a listen.

God is in the process of purging His church, and exposing wolves among sheep. And I am convinced there will be more cases like this.

Larry Stockstill, Pastor of Bethany World Prayer Center, Haggard's former Senior Pastor, and one of the board members who dismissed him, said "God chose to reveal Pastor Ted's sin," he said. "In this case, God chose at this particular moment to allow this sin to be exposed. Now we can be mad at God. We can say that's not fair. The timing is terrible. Or we can say Blessed be the name of the Lord. One of the things I've learned about God is that he is wiser than me. ... What's going to happen in the nation? You know what? I don't think that's your concern or mine. God is a holy God and he chose this incredibly important timing for this sin to be revealed, and I actually think it's a good thing. I believe America needs a shaking, spiritually." (christianitytoday.com, nov 6th, 2006: News).

I am reminded of what Richard Owen Roberts said once while he visited a church I attended. He said, "If you will not maintain His Holiness, He will maintain it...AT YOUR EXPENSE." (video on sermoninedex.net called "Breaking Faith With God", last 7 minutes).

May be broken for a "sick church in dying world" (Ravenhill); For the Ichabod in this nation, even churches who are blessed, but are found playing in the darkness of their own idolatry. God have mercy on us. Let us humble ourselves before the Lord.

"Wherefore he that thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor 10:12).

--winthrup7

I don't say this in irrerevance, or gleefully, but in fear: God answered this man's prayer. [u]And it needed to begin in his own life a long time ago.[/u] Let this be a reminder that if our preaching does not reflect a heart after God, it will be exposed as such.

The issue we have to come to terms with also is how folk who are in reptuation end up getting into a place where the enemy can work on them and they won't reach out for help from the saints. This is one of the things that happened to Jimmy Swaggart. The PRESSURE to act like everything is OK in order to maintain an 'image' in enormous. Folk expect you to be untouchable and the tendency is to allow them to believe it. When temptations come, along with the tremendous stresses that already come with being in a ministry like that, the feeling often develops that the person has no one to talk to. Not that everyone in ministry is struggling with drugs, homosexuality, or adultery because they are not, but it is a process that leads to these sins. Folk do not FALL over night.

Folk who have to come off 'perfect' are particularly vulnerable. Who is pastoring the pastors? Who is pastoring the pastor that pastors the pastors (senior leaders such as Ted)? Who can these men go to for pastoring and counsel? This is one of the questions Swagggart asked, "Who could I go to and talk to?" This is an important question. When you preach against sin and are in reputation for being tough on sin- you are still vulnerable yourself. No one is out of radar range of the enemy. But then how do you admit of temptation or weakness? Your going along and all the sudden temptation comes. Then what? many times you can resist the Devil and He will flee; but this is hinging on our submission to God. What if the devotional life has been neglected and the person is not up to date in their relationship to God? What if pride has come in and now God is resisting them? Many 'What if's', but the bottom line is- how do these people REACH OUT for help before it's too late and scandal is at the door?

Imagine for a moment how you would react if some of the biggest names in repentance preaching over the last 100 years came to YOU and said, "I need prayer." Have WE so exalted these men that we somehow think they are spiritual comic book figures or something? Would our faith be able to handle the comic book being SLAPPED out of our hands by reality? These people are human beings and they need to be able to admit of weakness. There is no temptation taken you but what is [i]common[/i] to man. I preached a message once called "PUT DOWN THE COMIC BOOK". It may never make the long list of great messages, but the truth remains. No one is holier than thou. Everyone needs the Body. Everyone needs prayer. Everyone needs pastored, etc. And when this does not exist, why should we wonder when some who are in reputation fall?

Much food for thought in these past posts,

"Who could I go to and talk to?"

A few years ago a pastor, who was also a good friend I loved, was caught in an affair. One of the most frustrating aspects of the whole fiasco was how shut out I felt...After learning how certain temptations could have been easily avoided I felt angry that we would be so close and yet so dishonest with one another. I would have been honored to have been asked to talk and walk with this man through his problems. I never imagined him as a sinless angel floating above the rest of us...I don't imagine any of the preachers on this website are either.

Alas, our church systems don't seem to support ministry upstream.

I'm not sure if we've exalted them, or they have done so themsleves...or both. It seems that modern ministries are really public relations more then relationships. Many pastors don't want prayer in the direct sense...they may lay hands on you but you may not penetrate their labored image. In fact this is the primary reason I struggle with even going to church...knowing people is next to impossible in those sanctified walls. People put their game face on when they enter the building.

I wonder if situations like Haggards are the reason. We just learned alittle more about who Ted is and the wheels fall off the bus....and in light of the public shame of Haggard, I wonder if other pastors, not to mention laypeople are taking notes and concluding...hide your sin at all cost.

I suppose in my own ideal version of reality, these men wouldn't be so isolated from the teeming masses. But then again what do I know?

Certainly we can all agree that even a pastor needs a pastor. I truly pray that Mr. Haggard is met richly by God through all this...God could've let him go his own way but in unfailing mercy pursued him. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Perhaps Ted Haggard really does represent us American evangelicals afterall.

MC

Compton's:

We just learned alittle more about who Ted is and the wheels fall off the bus....and in light of the public shame of Haggard, I wonder if other pastors, not to mention laypeople are taking notes and concluding...hide your sin at all cost.

This was the lesson learned of PTL and Jimmy Swaggert also. The reaction of the Church only reinforced their position of silence. It is the combination of things that you mention that I believe makes up this deadly elixer. It is sad when a person won't tell their closest friends they are slipping. I guess the best advice here is... don't do it. Ask for prayer- help, etc. Perhaps my most trouble is when I hear folk trying to come off as if they have no temptations or struggles. Just being honest. I heard the story of a preacher once who preached sin and hell HOT. He ripped his congregation from Dan to Beersheba. Finally when the husband of one of the women he was in adultry found out he forced him to church with a gun to his head and made him repent at the altar. "You preached like that to us and this is how you live?" The ANGER that came out was incredible. And this is the danger of an unbalanced and unrealistic attitude.

I would have been honored to have been asked to talk and walk with this man through his problems. I never imagined him as a sinless angel floating above the rest of us...I don't imagine any of the preachers on this website are either.

I am part of a small men's accountibility group at my church and have found that it is indeed an honor to walk through these things with a brother and to be open about my own temptations and failings also. I highly recommend finding an accountibility partner(s), for...
Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour. For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up. Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone? And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.(Ecc 4:9-12)
As in all things though, there needs to be balance; an accountibility group can turn into a substitute for seeking God, a crutch that is leaned on too heavily. Ultimately speaking, the accountibilty partner won't always be around when the crisis comes, but Christ is always there.

In Christ,

Ron

Hi Ron,

Thanks for sharing.

the accountibilty partner won't always be around when the crisis comes, but Christ is always there.

Does the program for men extend to the leadership also? Do women have similar programs?

Thanks!

Does the program for men extend to the leadership also? Do women have similar programs?

Yes, the program includes and is encouraged by leadership. One thing that the leadership is especially careful about is internet use. They each have a program on their PC's that keeps a record of their browsing history and e-mails it to an accountibility partner. It is good to see that these men in leadership acknowledge their temptations openly and seek to be held accountible in all areas.

Unfortunately, the accountibility groups are not all that popular among many men in the congregation. I think men tend to think they can stand alone and are often reticent about sharing personal matters. There is a certain bravado that can be difficult to overcome, I'm just glad that the leadership does present a good example in this area.

There is not a corresponding program for the women, at least not that I'm aware of, perhaps there should be. However, I think women naturally tend to share and seek help more readily than men.

In Christ,

Ron

Yes, the program includes and is encouraged by leadership. One thing that the leadership is especially careful about is internet use. They each have a program on their PC's that keeps a record of their browsing history and e-mails it to an accountibility partner.

I think accountability here is very important also. Sometimes it is best not to have access at all if there is a problem.

I have found also that many folk who fall deeply into sin have no issue with the internet. Some have told me point blank that they prefer the sin itself to simply the internet or other source of temptation. I agree that there is a progression to sin, but sometimes it is playing out in ways we are not aware of. It is more 'person to person' if you will. These, in my experience, have cause the most damage to families and congregations. Before the internet the enemy has means of bringing about his end, sometimes he reverts back to those old methods and uses long established patterns to bring men and women down.

There's plenty of free help out there if one needs it. Focus on the Family through H.B. Loundon (sp?) has a pastorial care ministry and even a toll free phone number (1-877-233-4455) which the caller can keep as anoymous if he/she desires too, and they can get prayer or what ever help they need. Ultimately it comes down to choice. We at every level make decisions on grey areas or self allowed justifiable sins (even though no sin is justifiable), Proverbs says that every mans way is right in his own sight. In the ministry we must cultivate a transparency with key individuals in our real life areas. That transparency will grow somewhat as our circle of influence grows. A realistic assessment of our own bent toward certain sins also helps. But ultimately each individual has to make up thier minds as to whether they want to sin or not. (i'm speaking of sins that come as a result of bad choices) Some sins come because we haven't been convicted in a certain area or had our minds renewed by the Word of God, these are not the sins I'm talking about. In Bro. Haggard's situation he more than likely placed a line in the sand and wanted to get as close to that line as he could, the results are as the ole' southern gospel song says,
" sin will take you farther than you wanted to go keep you longer than you wanted to stay and cost you more than you wanted to pay".
This should serve us all as wake - up call to serve God with Fear and trembling, knowing "There by the grace of God, Go I".

I wanted to post a question for us to ponder. We have had many in depth discussions about the Christian and sin. Therefore I was wondering, if this man has struggled with this his whole life as he has admittied, and if the gay relationship has been ongoing for the last three years, was/is he a Christian?
Please understand, I am not trying to cast any further mud upon this man, or his family as I have grieved and prayed for him. Yet how do we know he is a Christian to begin with?
I beleive this will be the tip of the iceberg, judgment begins at the house of God, and many have made the house of God a way of merchandise and prosperity at the expense of the gospel, and godliness.
I ask this tongue in cheek, but is a man a Christian because he preaches every Sunday? or because he has 14,000 people attending his church, or because he has meetings with government officials? After all our Lord met with government officials, before they sent Him to be crucified.
I believe we must as never before have discernment. We seem to quick to accept a person as a brother or sister when they may not be. This does not mean being cynical, but relying upon the Spirit to guide us in our relationships with people.
I looked at the web site for New Life, and on there front page they advertise a thing called "thou shalt laugh" it is a night of comedy in the House of God.
We have fallen brethren, and I humbly say with tears beginning to well up, what are we doing about it?

"I looked at the web site for New Life, and on there front page they advertise a thing called "thou shalt laugh" it is a night of comedy in the House of God.
We have fallen brethren, and I humbly say with tears beginning to well up, what are we doing about it?"

Roaring Lamb,

So, it's a sin for us to laugh and enjoy life? Maybe you need to come and join in on the laughter and joy that God has given us, even in the midst of my pastor's fall...!

InTheLight wrote:

I am part of a small men's accountibility group at my church and have found that it is indeed an honor to walk through these things with a brother and to be open about my own temptations and failings also. I highly recommend finding an accountibility partner(s), for...
Ultimately speaking, the accountibilty partner won't always be around when the crisis comes, but Christ is always there.

In Christ,

Ron

Amen... Accountability is key here. My former pastor's situation (Pastor Haggard), has brought me to my knees and caused me to look into my own life and see what I'm hiding, and the need, even if I'm not currently hiding anything, for an accountability partner. I want my life to be an open book. I want other to lift me up in prayer and encouragement, even if it hurts. I want God to rule my life, nothing more, nothing less.

roaringlamb wrote:
I wanted to post a question for us to ponder. We have had many in depth discussions about the Christian and sin. Therefore I was wondering, if this man has struggled with this his whole life as he has admittied, and if the gay relationship has been ongoing for the last three years, was/is he a Christian?
Please understand, I am not trying to cast any further mud upon this man, or his family as I have grieved and prayed for him. Yet how do we know he is a Christian to begin with?
I ask this tongue in cheek, but is a man a Christian because he preaches every Sunday? or because he has 14,000 people attending his church, or because he has meetings with government officials? After all our Lord met with government officials, before they sent Him to be crucified.
I believe we must as never before have discernment. We seem to quick to accept a person as a brother or sister when they may not be. This does not mean being cynical, but relying upon the Spirit to guide us in our relationships with people.

You must understand that WE ARE ALL SINNERS. Yes, leaders are held to a higher standard, but they still struggle. They still stumble. Has he been struggling with this for some time, yes, and it overtook him. He was hurting very deep inside and the it hurt so much that his pride took over and ended up hurting his walk with Christ, his immediate family and his congregation.

Ted Haggard is a genuine man of God. Did he royally screw up? You bet, but that doesn't classify him a "non-christian."

By the way, the church government that we have established is excellent and has kept this kind of stuff from happening in our church for over 21 years. If we didn't have it in place, we would be like so many other churches that split when things like this take place.

Again, remember that we are all sinners. So, by your questioning, "Therefore I was wondering, if this man has struggled with this his whole life as he has admittied, and if the gay relationship has been ongoing for the last three years, was/is he a Christian?" Would that be one that you would have to question upon your own self? Wouldn't each one of us have to ask ourselves, "I sin, so am I really a Christian?" Or have we forgotten that Christ died for our sins?

This is our church. This is how it should be done. This is the body of Christ...

http://www.gazette.com/interactives/newlife_1105/

But more and more I see the need for accountability and help in these matters. We all do! But we dont want to... and there in lies the problem.

You're right here. In my own life before I started going to churches, I was a traveling christian buisness man. During these times I forced myself into submission and accountability with others including my wife and family. I have always believed that to live a very transparent life is the best road to take. It hasn't been easy or convient and there have been many times when I have had to eat humble pie or just plain repent. As a minister I find the same temptations on the road that I faced when I was traveling strictly for buisness.

So, it's a sin for us to laugh and enjoy life? Maybe you need to come and join in on the laughter and joy that God has given us, even in the midst of my pastor's fall...!

I did not say that it was a sin to laugh, and you have greatly misinterpreted what I was getting at. The House of God is not a place for comedy shows, it is for the Glory of God. Let comedy shows be done in entertainment facilities that are geared for such. I know there is great blur as to the difference today, but it simply must be.
I have and continue to pray for you and your congregation. I have wept for all of you, but this does not change the Scriptures
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Even if we say that the Greek for "sinneth" means to continue in sin this is applicable.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
It is of interest to note that John was confronting the Gnostic lie that a man could sin with his body, yet his soul would be okay.
Dear brother, I hope that the glory of God may come upon your fellowship, that healing will occur for those who are hurt but laughter will not cure this. Instead perhaps you should suggest a solemn assembly where tere is weeping, and mourning not just for your pastor, but also for all the sin in the church. There are many who are laughing every Sunday and are no closer to Heaven than the Devil because their heart is full of sin. That is the issue here. Not your pastor or the comedy show, but that sin is allowed in body of Christ unchecked, and excused as normal behaviour. If it is not nipped, or cut off it will blossom into full fruit just as we have seen.
My love and prayers are with you

No pride was intended in the production of that post. All I was saying was that our Christian walk should be focused on God, not on one man. By my statement I all I was indicating is that the church body thinks it sucks that our pastor has done these things, but that doesn't mean it has to be the ennd of our. Our church body is handling this sorrowful situation in a Godly manner, that's all.

This is in response to Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Having said that... if the intention of this comedy thing is just another attempt typical of mega-churches to attract the unsaved and offer them a watered down, easy believism salvation... then i have a problem with it.

Krispy

No, this is not the case :-)

Here is the description of the event. Brother this is not good. These men are not godly, they use foul language, and also how is this beneficial to Christ?
Here is their site [url=http://bluecollarcomedytour.warnerbros.com/]Blue Collar Comedy Tour[/url]
November 11 at 7 p.m. From the Producer of the Blue Collar Comedy Tour: The Movie, comes the Thou Shalt Laugh Comedy Tour. They will only be here one night only to entertain and move us with their clean, no-nonsense brand of humor that has made them a staple on the national comedy circuit. This is fun for the whole family, or a date night get-away! Tickets are on-sale, at the box office, online or by calling

I think accountability here is very important also. Sometimes it is best not to have access at all if there is a problem.

Do you think the reason there is so little accountability is because there is no sense of "community"?

just like mel gibson... he makes great statements, but hasn't given his own life to Jesus...

similar to many of us i believe...

he says the right words, makes many offerings, but his heart is what God is after, a sincere, contrite spirit.

he must confess his sin / agree with God's position against his sin, and throw it away...

holding onto one's sin is very much like holding onto a hungry tiger that's on a frayed leash...

Do you think the reason there is so little accountability is because there is no sense of "community"?

I think you hit the nail on the head. If you look at the Church in Acts, they were together every day. They were friends, who were bound by the cause, and person of Christ. There are not too many secrets you can keep from those whom you see all the time. That is why wives always have a different idea of their husbands than do others.
But also, as the Church our lives are really not different than most non-believers. We go about our "religious" activities, and that is that compartment of that day, but come Monday there are other more important compartments, or slices of the pie. People live such compartmenatilized lives that there is not room for anyone else. I mean after all, I just saw sister Jane yesterday and brother Joe and I had fellowship in the restroom after service. :) But then it's back to MY house, MY kids, MY job, etc. etc.!

Brother Bartle err Neil, first I wanted to ask you how your production went that you asked us to pray for awhile ago?
Now also, if Jeff Foxworthy is a Christian, why woul he do a show that has crude, and sexual jokes. This is from the DVD Ad, and the PG-13 rating it received?
Plus, do you ever do any work in Minneapolis? Because my wife's uncle runs a little theater there, where they do some pretty interesting productions.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

But ya know, you dont see many "mega-churches" that are preaching the hard truth of scripture. If they did they wouldnt be "mega-churches"... they would be churches of about 100 people.

"Itching ears" abound.

Krispy

Hey, my friend, be careful. I agree that many mega-churches are such as you say, but I grew more in the Lord through the hlep of the leadership at Pastor Haggard's church then when my dad was preaching many years ago with a 120 person congregation. It's through New Life Church, The Furnace, and the School of Worship (the latter two are associated with NLC) that the Lord has led me to a place of seeking revival and the constant need for prayer.

bartle wrote:
I'm sorry about your pastor, truly am, but maybe what your temple oughta consider is quit fooling around in the realm of the caesar, that is politics.

Thats what you all should consider at New Life, would to God deal with "Focus on the Family", and the whole brood of "evangelicals", to wit, religious right....expose it all.

Tommorrow's the day.

As a Focus employee, I have to disagree. Just because, as Christians, we call on America to do the right thing and to seek God as we debate over leadership for our country, doesn't mean it is wrong. If we, as Christians don't step in, we will get jokers like Clinton, Kerry, and Clinton again.

If the Church would spend as much time praying as it did trying to win favour with politicians imagine what could be done.
To somehow suppose that God approves of our foreign policy is to create a god in your own image.
Remember the cross of Christ obliterates everything that is natural. This means political parties, national pride. There is no longer republican, or democrat but there is one new man in Christ. If you refuse a brother or sister equal standing because of their political beliefs, then you have much deeper spiritual issues that should be addressed. The last election vicerated the body of Christ because so many were brainwashed by a good PR scheme. Let us not forget that people were kicked out of chruches not because of unrepented sin, but because they favoured Kerry over Bush.
Brother I pray that the eyes of you understanding would be opened, because all that is seemingly good with the Evangelical Right is a smoke screen for other agendas. That is why Bush could sign a bill giving money to Planned Parenthood, and also start a division of the Homeland Security Department to monitor any Church that is 501c3 incorporated. You shall know them by their fruit, not by their speeches, or their professions.

bro Krispy
you're so right in saying that there is gross sin in the camp and God is going to expose it all. Judgement does begin at the House of God, it begins with those of us who are believers whether we are backslidden or not. We are thoroughly deserving of it all because the world speaks so evily of God on our account.

Let those of us who heed the SPirit of God REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR WE WILL SURELY DIE!!!

As Greg has mentioned in the past... this isn't a political site or thread, so I won't go any further either. In my post, I was merely defending Focus on the Family and New Life Church. I understand that there will always be differences of opinion about any organization, but there are still good moral values that hold fast to the Truth of Scripture that eminates from both ministries. Have you ever heard of the Truth Project produced by FOTF, or any of the other good products that are Biblically sound?
Also, my references to politics was to only say that we as Christians should still be involved in prayer and voting... that's all... I wasn't trying lean towards any party... I was just mentioning a few jokers who ended up being democrates.

Anyways....

We can all learn something from Pastor Ted's situation, and that is that we will all be accountable for our actions and our sins, whether they will be brought to light while we are on this earth, or before God on Judgement Day!

I had an understanding of something I've prayed about for the last 15 years, just a couple of weeks ago. I won't go into detail, but I saw the statue of Liberty face down, now I understand that God in his judgement is going to judge our idol named american liberty, or freedom. He will use our government to do this, and the fall of big name christians will help to put into place all the pieces. Jn 6 tells us that the people saw the miracle of the bread and fishes and went to take Jesus and make Him thier King, that's the trouble with us, we are always seeking a king instead of God who takes the hearts of Kings and turns it like rivers of waters which ever way He wills. I feel such sadness over the way politics exploites christianity, but worse, the lack of discernment within the christian community over the hidden things of the hearts of men. The puritians used to say that ones desires can and will bribe the true godly discernment one ought to have and exercise at all times.

Found this list and couldn't help but see the possibilities of Foxworthy being a Christian....

If he was a dispensationalist his act may go something like this....

…You might be a Dispensationalist
1.\tIf more than one of your children is named Ryrie, Chafer or Darby…
2.\tIf you get excited when you see a sentence with a parenthesis…
3.\tIf you license plate reads: “IM PR TRB”…
4.\tIf you believe the musical “Seven Brides for Seven Brothers” contains an apocalyptic message…
5.\tIf your bedroom, office and car all have sky-lights…
6.\tIf you have ever stated: “Well, Lindsey said…”
7.\tIf there are more underlined sentences in your copy of “Late Great Planet Earth” than in your Bible…
8.\tIf you own a copy of “Late Great Planet Earth”…
9.\tIf you consider Tommy Ice an authority on anything…
10.\tIf your Pastor gives a sermon exclusively from the New Scofield Bible study notes…
11.\tIf you’ve eve had more than three candidates for the AntiChrist at one time…
12.\tIf you think Saddam Hussein’s name means 666 in more than three languages…
13.\tIf you took Hal Lindsey’s advice twenty years ago not to make any long term plans and are now broke, uneducated and in a dead-end job…
14.\tIf bar-codes make you nervous…
15.\tIf you’ve only been a Christian for one year and your Pastor has preached through the book of Revelation more than two times…
16.\tIf you make sure there’s at least one non-Christian pilot on every flight you take…
17.\tIf your church has adopted the 60’s song “Up, Up and Away” as a hymn…
18.\tIf you think the Ryrie Study Bible notes are part of the original autographs…
19.\tIf you’ve already forgotten the last wrongly predicted date of the rapture…
20.\tIf you already know the next predicted date for the rapture…
21.\tIf you’re still suspicious about Gorbachev’s birthMARK…
22.\tIf you believe that Grant Jeffrey, Tommy Ice, Dave Hunt or Hal Lindsey is a theologian…
23.\tIf you know the location of the European Central Bank…
24.\tIf you’ve ruined more than five records trying to find backward messages…
25.\tIf you count trampoline aerobics as “Rapture Practice” in your morning devotions…
26.\tIf you think Texe Marrs’ books belong in the theology section of your local Christian bookstore…
27.\tIf you never stand on your head out of the fear that the rapture will send you the wrong direction…
28.\tIf your baby’s stroller has a break-away sun bonnet…
29.\tIf you always chew gum so your ears won’t pop at the rapture…
30.\tIf you can name more dispensations than commandments…
31.\tIf Clarence Larkin is your favorite artist…
32.\tIf you know who Clarence Larkin is…
33.\tIf your children’s favorite game is Pre-Trib-Hide-and-Seek, “Now you see me, now you don’t”…
34.\tIf you think the four millennial positions are: Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Liberal…
35.\tIf your favorite party game is “Pin the tail on the Beast”…
36.\tIf your favorite CrackerJacks prize is a temporary tattoo of the Mark of the Beast…
37. If you think John Walvoord, CI Scofield and J N Darby are some of the Church Fathers…
38.\tIf your favorite one-volume commentary on the Bible is on “The Bible Code”… (Jon B.)
39.\tIf your favorite multi-volume commentary on this morning’s newspaper is the Bible…(Jane D.

(My apologies to Jeff Foxworthy...)

MC

what gets me is where were the other pastors?, did no one see the sin in the leadership of the church. or did they just turn a blind eye or a deaf ear. it is hard to believe that for 3 years none saw or heard the sin in the camp. where were the nathans? did God not show this sin to anyone in the church, where were the watchman? were men afarid to make waves in such a large church and disrupt the ride. we should ask the leaders in the church "Are we truly our brothers keeper?"

Hi brother Mike(Compton),

I am sad. At this point some may want to medicate my sadness with some bit of wisdom or alternative perspective but I think for now I''ll prefer to be sad. Considering our sorry state I think it's the only sane response.

Dear brother, I read something today and it made me think of this you wrote above.

From the prophet Isaiah

[b][color=000000]Therefore said I,[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000] Look away from me; I will weep bitterly, labour not to comfort me, because of the spoiling of the daughter of my people[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]for...[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000] it is a day of trouble, and of treading down,[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000] and of perplexity[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]by the Lord God of hosts [/color][/b]

[i]Selah[/i]

[b][color=000000]in the valley of vision[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000] breaking down the walls[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000] and of crying to the mountains[/color][/b]

[i]Selah[/i]

Perhaps if I could, I would ask the prophet: how is it that

[b][color=000000]thy slain men are not slain with the sword, nor dead in battle[/color][/b]

and...

[b][color=000000]thy rulers are fled together...bound by the archers?[/color][/b]

is it because...

[b][color=000000]in that day did the Lord God of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.[/color][/b]

would to God we all had more tears than

[b]great swelling words[/b]

[b]and answers[/b]

lest it be said of us too

[b][color=000033]Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you...[/color][/b]

...[b][color=000000] till ye die[/color][/b]

andres wrote:
what gets me is where were the other pastors?, did no one see the sin in the leadership of the church. or did they just turn a blind eye or a deaf ear. it is hard to believe that for 3 years none saw or heard the sin in the camp. where were the nathans? did God not show this sin to anyone in the church, where were the watchman? were men afarid to make waves in such a large church and disrupt the ride. we should ask the leaders in the church "Are we truly our brothers keeper?"

I don't know if my former pastor was in the sin for three years, that has not been brought to light yet, even so, he hid it VERY WELL. He's had a number of pastor's around him for pretty much every year of his ministry, this was just something unseen, as he was also very outspoken against the things he was struggling with himself most recently.

Hi Benbrokeway,
May the LORD bless you and keep you.
I just wanted to ask you,
When did David Hogan preached at this church?
I heard Hogan in one of his sermons say that he preached at this church.
I just wonder what happened to the gift of discerning spirits,especially in a charismatic church where supposedly the gifts freely flow.
Thank you.
Jaime.

I want to note some verses first:

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

now note the last verse:1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

True testomony; After several nights on the streets preaching I became a where that I was in a struggle over the temptation to drink beer. Before Christ came into my life I hated beer and didn't indulge in it. So this temptation to drink was pretty out of order, but God used it to teach me this passage of scripture. During these attacks I would crave beer, smell beer, and feel beers taste in my mouth. Had I not spent time to deal with this temptation I believe it would have attempted to take my life. The key to victory was openly sharing with the street team what was happening, found out they had similar experiences but different areas, we were all being attacked, and so we fasted and prayed to the Lord for help, Jesus helped us and won us the victory. Preachers have to rember that the words they speak from the pulpit, the stand they make in public, will be tried by fire. It has to be, that's why the message of the cross is so important, dead flesh can not be tempted. The church has forgotten that there is a real devil, a real personal devil, who wants nothing but to kill steal and destroy. Not just Haggard, but each and every one of us.

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

I'm not going to answer for bro. Ben but I will say this, God is not disrespectful of each of us when it comes to His longsuffering in His dealings with us in our sins.

Hi ChrisJD,

Thanks for the touching post. (I feel alittle awkward after having posted my more lighthearted Foxworthy bit...)

I've said this before in another context but I think it applies here...that I am learning to cry my tears (actually or figuratively) bit by bit along the way as opposed to running from them and then all at once falling apart. The thing is that I intend to feel connected to the brethren and not shut off from them.

And if I am going to be upset about Haggards sin then I want to take time and deal with that. In the end I up confessing more then accusing...his failure invariably leads us back to ouselves. It's like that with all "leaders" as well...I remember watching this 'expose' on Benny Hinn's filthy lucre. I was mad for a moment, but soon all I could do is wonder if the disgust I felt for Hinn was a taste of how I offended God with my own money.

Yet I never want to luxuriate in my sadness...making a virtue of it. The point of sadness and suffering is that it should be undesirable...we should take no sense of identity or pride from it. Only then is it true sadness and suffering.

I learned that from my blessed bride of 15 years...the joy of the Lord is my strength. It took a profound man, Nehemiah, who knew repentance and brokenheartedness to say those words. Suffering provokes compassion; this is how God wired me...I think that's why he also gave me a sense of humor...to lift people up. (Sorry if I've failed below LOL)

This is the irony...we find joy in losing hope in this world. It is perhaps a confession that I, so idolatrous at the core, must lose hope over and over again, but I am glad that the Lord graces us with soft enough holds on this Earth to let things go when we must....In this way I believe that joy, as well as sorrow, is going to be a real mark of the spirit in the last days...joy not in the circumstantial world that is rotting beneath our feet but in our hope, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Tearfully I open my heart to him , unclasping a misers purse...His face is flinty but His heart is true. Every wound is forgotten in his presence, every grudge for my enemies forgiven. We read about God in books and grow reputable before others in our knowledge...but before Him, when we see just a peek of who He is...a ray of light through a crack in our own schemes...we despise the things we held as important...our hate for others, our love of self.

We despise it all and empty our hearts of it. Every angry judgement, every thought of gratification, every worthless coin with another anti-christ ceasar on it...we file bankruptcy. And this is how we make room for joy once again.

I don't know why I shared all that but blessed be the Lord brother.

MC

did no one see the sin in the leadership of the church. or did they just turn a blind eye or a deaf ear. it is hard to believe that for 3 years none saw or heard the sin in the camp.

I completely agree with that statement. You can't tell me the Holy Spirit couldn't have revealed this to them earlier if they were on their knees crying out. (where we all should be, especially leaders of a 14,000 member church)

thats why I'm single, besides being as ugly as green painted fire hydrant, I'm only gonna marry a Godly woman,

The Bible says "Beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news."

Just stop wearing shoes! :-P (sorry Bartle, couldn't resist)

The saying, "morality dictates doctrine" is more true to me now than
ever.

With the fall of Ted Haggard, the"once saved always saved" preacher of
a seeker- friendly religious building/ church club, whose claim to
fame on Tom Brokaw's new broadcast a while back was to not preach against
sin so that sinners felt comfortable visiting, now confesses that he
had been defeated for years with sodomy. The struggle isn't the problem-
we all have things we are battling. The only way we can overcome the
sins that we are tempted by is through His Grace. However, God
"resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble". It is important for us to
see the root problem in this ugly situation. Having a Pope is wrong,
whether they be Catholic, Protestant or non- denominational/ evangelical.
Positional leadership, instead of organic leadership, separates
brethren, making some peons and lifting others up in pride, thus the ones
lifted up have no grace to overcome sin, since they are being "resisted"
by God. I hate the bad testimony that this situation brings
upon Christ's name, but I hate even more the Nicolaitanism /
Babylonian systems of lifting men up in a pope position even more since it is
one of the root problems of this travesty.

We should pray for the thousands caught up in this mess to get their
eyes off of these Christian movie stars and on to Jesus. Pray that their
faith will not fail.
Let us always remember to stay brothers amongst brothers.

Jason

Brother I was sensing something similar to what you wrote yesterday.
Within the Catholic Institution there are many who deplore the molestation of the children, yet things do not change as they have no authority to question those in charge. Now we have adapted this into the Protestant Church as well. Where there may be things wrong or contrary to God's Word, but one cannot comment because the leadership is somehow above reproach, and infallible. It is a very "popish" way of doing things. Then add to this that many people are kept in line with the misuse of the Scripture "touch not mine anointed", and told that to question the leaders is to question God Himself! Perhaps in many Churches there are genuine men of God who genuinely look after and love their peoples' souls but I have yet to come across this. I have found a very domineering, abusive, controlling, if you're not with us, you're against us mentality.
It is time that we re-evaluate much of what we do in the name of Christ. Starting in our own hearts and then working outwardly.
May our cries flood the throne room of our God, that He would send a wave to revive His sleeping children and may it start with us.

that right, lamb
it seems, that if you would try to correct or even if you dont agree with same idea as the Pastor, your commiting a spirtual murder on the Pastor's authority, so you stay silent. or some men ,becuase of selfish motives will agree with everthing the pastor says so he will look good in the pastor's eyes and mabey move on up in the church ladder. believe me i know becuase i,m guilty of both... God is really dealing with me in these matters..how i should glory God, rather then man..

Brother Andres may I encourage you by saying that I was involved in this too at one point, but God is merciful, and He will lead you out.
It is concerning to me though how many men sacrifice Truth for a paycheck, when God has said that He will take care of those that honour Him.
Be strong brother because the institutionalized religious system puts its claws into a person very seductively and before you know it, you are so involved that it seems almost impossible to escape, but with God nothing is impossible. Praise Him, and enjoy the journey!

I'd like to share something deep within my heart.

Surfing online a few months ago, I came across a 'turn or burn' website exposing numerous people. Some didn't really have strong evidence but they had some on Ted Haggard. For some reason, it caused me to read on. The 'exposing' was in paid homosexual affairs, in 1997.

Before actually surfing, I was worshipping God. Then 'surfed'. I couldn't get away from reading about Mr.Haggard.

So, I went before the Lord, "Lord, I don't know why I'm praying this, but I am. I ask that IF this is true. That You would expose this abominable sin. Father, I ask that you first give him a chance to repent. Make it clear. Let him FIRST repent, and if he ignores it, then proceed. Father, do this in such a way, that it brings Glory and Honor to Your name."

Now, you might say 'Your just saying that lovegrace' but I'm not.

To see that within 2 months of praying that, God answered, that BIG. Is quite a shocker to me.

I'm not 'super spiritual' or nothing. Just a normal guy who loves Jesus, with all his heart.

Brethren, we serve a loving holy God. Let's not play games with His statements. Let's not play in sin, but instead, strive to be holy and loving for God is both.

I'm quite in tune with teachers and preachers and I never heard of Ted Haggard either. He doesn't represent any type of christian teaching that I'm a part of or many of us are for that matter. It is just like the media to do something like spot light his sin and lay it at the foot of all christians. TBN is just now doing their praise-a-thon and I'm praying that this doesn't reduce their pledges. I am fed daily by their network as people all over the world are. Satan is trying everything to stop Jesus and unfortunately many folks are falling right into line with him. I pray for Mr. Haggard, it's hard enough to confess your sin to the Lord, but to have it on CNN would be unimaginable.

Ted Haggard has released a statement to his church, [url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/ted_haggard_statement.htm]Ted Haggard Statement[/url]. I found it at the Moriel Ministries site.

God Bless
Rob

Jaime wrote:
Hi Benbrokeway,
May the LORD bless you and keep you.
I just wanted to ask you,
When did David Hogan preached at this church?
I heard Hogan in one of his sermons say that he preached at this church.
I just wonder what happened to the gift of discerning spirits,especially in a charismatic church where supposedly the gifts freely flow.
Thank you.
Jaime.

dohzman wrote:

I'm not going to answer for bro. Ben but I will say this, God is not disrespectful of each of us when it comes to His longsuffering in His dealings with us in our sins.

Thanks dohzman. I agree. I don't know why it was never discerned. I don't have an anwer for that. I am sure many in the congregation are asking themselves the same question. Maybe God had a purpose in having it hidden until this point of exposure. I don't know. I won't speak for God, but He does have a time, place, and purpose for everything. I think much good will come of this. God is wanting to restore "the church" (All Christians) and he is beginning to cleanse by His pruning. I find it interesting the number of immoral leaders who are being exposed lately. Kent Hovin and his tax evasion, Another pastor here in Colorado Springs who stepped down from the pulpit in favor of his gay lifestyle, Pastor Ted Haggard and his sins, and a number of others that are being exposed throughout the US. God is moving. I can see it. I don't know exactly what is up His sleeve, but we must be on our faces, and denting our floor boards and carpets in tearful prayer. :-D

http://thoushaltlaugh.com/media_mason.html

Hi Jason,

Could you (or anyone else) possibly further expound upon Nicolaitanism. I've always been curious about what this is when I've read it in the book of Revelation.

Thanks.