'Faith' in what - or who?

dorcas wrote:
Is 'the faith of Abraham' [i]and New Testament believers[/i], simply [b]faith in God's existence[/b], or, is it specifically [b]faith in God's word[/b], (God's existence being taken as indubitable)?

Or, do you have some other interpretation?

It's not faith in God's existence, but in His word
[b]Psalm 138:2[/b] [color=990000]I will worship toward Your holy temple, and give thanks to Your name for Your mercy, and for Your truth; for You have magnified Your Word upon all Your name.[/color]

Sis asked...

Is 'the faith of Abraham' and New Testament believers, simply faith in God's existence, or, is it specifically faith in God's word, (God's existence being taken as indubitable)?

1. When He speaks, do you listen and obey?

2. What outcome do you observe from obedience?

3. What conclusions can you make based on the outcome?

This is the walk or ancient path...

In Christ
Jeff

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by His faith.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

What Faith came? The Law shut all up unto this faith.

Galatians 3:25-27 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

How could anybody have faith in something that had not come yet.

The Holy Spirit had not come as He did at Pentecost with The Faith. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
His Fruit is Faith. If Faith is of Jesus Christ, then it has to be this Faith that saves by Grace through this Faith that only is available in Christ Jesus.

How is a man or woman justified? By the Christ that God has made unto us righteousness. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Only Justification can make righteous a sinner. Christ has been made our righteousness by God the Father.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Christ in us is the only righteousness be can be approved unto salvation by His Faith that Came with Him unto those that would believe that He is the Son of the Living God.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

As Christ is in the World in believers so are we as Christ in the World, by His Faith and Righteousness through Grace by the Father.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

In this world who are we as? As He is. As His Faith, as His righteousness, being justified by His Faith, unto redemption and sanctification, through His Wisdom through the Faith that the Holy Spirit gives from the Fruit He can only give.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Linn,

I have a question, why is it that most people when it concerns faith, go to Abraham instead of the Faith of Christ? If I had The God of the Universe come to me and speak to me clearly and direct me to do exactly what He wanted me to do, I would believe also. So then why did Abraham not become Jesus Christ If he was so exalted in faith, that was counted to him as righteousness. Abraham only had counted righteousness, not birthed in the believer the righteousness of Christ. Made in us not counted. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Not in Abraham.

I see a different faith in Christ Jesus, I see the Faith of the Father Himself in Christ Jesus, this is a faith that I believe Abraham did not have. If it was the Faith of God that gave Jesus Christ in the Garden a picture of what He would have to endure to obey His Father and make good for all time The Faith of, "not my will but Yours be done," the Faith that I believe our new birth and becoming a new creature "in" Christ Jesus is given to the new birthed son's of God.

If I just had the faith of Abraham, not counted to me as faith by God, I would be of all men most lost. I believe that the Faith of Jesus Christ has been instilled in me by the birth of Jesus Christ, the Perfect Seed of God, that makes a new creature, not a copy of Abraham because of counted faith but an imputed faith by our new nature. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Only the nature of Christ can do the things of the law unto righteousness by His Faith. That Faith being born again in us makes the faith of Abraham counted, not the Faith by nature, which Only Christ Has, and has given the born again in Christ Jesus by the Perfect Seed of God, Jesus Christ in us the Hope of Glory, a new and more perfect Faith than that of, "counted faith" of Abraham.

I would much rather have the Faith of Christ than the counted faith of Abraham, then by birth, my Faith is His Faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What makes us justified unto the righteousness of God? It is Christ in us, not the faith of Abraham. I am sure Abraham will say the same thing when we see him in The Kingdom of Christ on this earth in the millennium. My old faith did nothing for me except condemn me to hell. My new Faith in Christ has made me a son of God and by His Faith I can see and understand the thing of the Kingdom of God, and will be learning these things for all eternity.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In Christ: Phillip

The word of God is not divided in a way that will lead those who hear it and obey to different parts of God. Faith leads one to our Mediator....

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

God Bless Sis...

In Christ
Jeff

Faith in God is the same as knowing that the chair that you sit on will hold you.

Therefore, if our faith in God comes from God, then the faith in the chair to hold you comes from the chair.
This is obviously ridiculous.
Therefore, our faith comes from with in us.

Faith is faith; we have faith in God that HE will honor His Word and give us eternal life.
Faith in God
Faith in chair
trust in God to save you
trust in chair to hold you

My point with all this is that your faith does not come from God as people seem to think,

If not, then the above statement is true, the faith in a chair comes from the chair and not you.

Moreover, God will condemn one who has no faith in Him. How could God justly condemn one who He has not given the thing He requirers of.
This would be against His nature.

Furthermore, if faith is given to one to be save, then one goes to hell for not being able to use what he hasn't been given.
This would be unjust.

All men have faith inherently, it is a concept of the character and will which involves reason and moral rectitude.

[i]Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness[/i].

I have a question, why is it that most people when it concerns faith, go to Abraham instead of the Faith of Christ?

Two words stand out; "Believed" and "accounted", if anything it seems it is descriptive that Paul is after. I too struggled with this a bit hearing it put similarly in this fashion, as 'going to Abraham' rather than to Christ, but I believe it is complimentary not an either\\or, it's a blurred distinction.

Consider;

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Was blessed today to listen to an old Tozer series on 1 Peter and at one point he was making particular emphasis on, without directly stating it, just how time-bound we creatures are.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Taking this with a careful look at John 8 above seems to reconcile this a great deal. It's the 'same' faith if you can look at it this way. The accounting is from Gods end. In fact, John 8:56 is really quite staggering to just dwell on, all on it's own.

I can believe a chair is a chair and it will hold me if I sit on it, but the chair cannot save me by that faith. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, His Faith saved me.
We are not saved by faith. We are saved by Grace through Faith which is a gift. All I can do is believe.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John 3:15-19 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

All man's deeds are evil, that includes our faith.

All we can do is believe God and it is His Faith that saves us.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

That includes the Faith of the Son of God unto the Law of Love in Christ Jesus. In Salvation's Birthing by the Seed of the Father we now have the Nature of God in us, that is Jesus Christ the Son.

This verse is undeniable and cannot be discarded.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This one either: Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

By our New Creature Nature, that is son's of God with the Spirit of Christ in us, we now live by the Faith of the Son of God in this new life we live in the Flesh.

The chair and Christ are a perfect picture of what faith in a chair and the Faith of the Son of God will do in the believer in working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

These are the only two places in the old testament that faith is mentioned. Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

One says there is no saving faith, the other says the Just shall live by His Faith, that is Jesus Christ.

Praise God the Faith of the Son of God came. This is just a small sample of the Faith of the Son of God in us, by which we are saved.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Check out the Faith of the Son of God.

In the Faith of Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
I can believe a chair is a chair and it will hold me if I sit on it, but the chair cannot save me by that faith. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, His Faith saved me.
We are not saved by faith. We are saved by Grace through Faith which is a gift. All I can do is believe.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It isn't like there are difrent [b]kinds[/b] of faith.
It is the same kind of faith you have in Jesus as that you have in the chair.
The only thing that is difrent is what you have faith in Jesus or the chair to do.

I don't like the term "saving faith".

Muslums have "saving faith in ala, Mormans have saving faith in there god.

The only "saving faith" is, is the faith that is [b]directed[/b] towards Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross with His reserection.

I will concied that Jesus gives us faith as he gives us life, but it is not some special gift as only Christians have.

It is given as inherant as our breath or even our body. Faith is esential part of life for all mankind.

Not only for salvation.

All man's deeds are evil, that includes our faith.

Brother Phillip wrote:

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, His Faith saved me.

How does His faith become your faith?

All man's deeds are evil, that includes our faith.

This conclusion is not based on Scripture...

In Christ
Jeff

However, neither the floor nor the ground talk to us about how dependable they are.

[b]The big difference when God speaks, is His eternal reality.[/b] People who have never believed in God, can hear Him speak to their hearts, and KNOW He is there, and they can completely change their minds on the basis of this encounter.

Of course, you will notice in Romans 10 when you read it, that the wrath of God is to fall on those who did not obey the gospel. That is not God's meanness, that is unbelief on the part of people who HAVE heard Him speak. See Exodus 20:19..... same story.... only this is their last chance.

appreciate this, Dorcas
praise the Lord Jesus Christ

Saving faith to Moslems is only saving faith to Islam.

Saving faith to Christians is the saving faith of Jesus Christ unto salvation because we believe that the Father said, Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. The Faith of the Son of God sent by The Father, given by the Holy Spirit the power to believe the need for a Savior.

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Man's own faith cannot say Jesus Christ is the Lord. Only the Holy Spirit can give that faith.
We can believe the name Jesus Christ, by our own faith, but cannot call Him Lord except by His Faith through the Holy Spirit. Even Moslems say He was a good man and prophet, and devils also say who He is but won't call Him Lord. It takes the Faith of Christ Himself in a believer to make this truth manifest in the believer, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Lord of All.

Ephesians 3:9-12 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.

Even principalities and powers in heavenly places did not know what God's purpose in Christ Jesus our Lord was to be. But by the Faith of Him we have confidence what God's eternal purpose was in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is;

Ephesians 3:17-21 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

He just said in verse 12 that the faith of Christ is the faith dwelling in our hearts that we can comprehend with all the saints that we are filled with all the fullness of God. That is Christ Jesus in you by His Glory not ours.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our Justification is by the Faith of Jesus Christ. Our Justification makes us righteous before God by Christ Jesus in us. We live a new life in Christ Jesus and the Life we now live we live by the Faith of Jesus Christ. Not our faith in Jesus Christ. The Faith of Jesus Christ is the only Faith that can make us Faithful in Christ and give us our faith in Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's work is it that make us perfect in Christ? It is His working that we are striving in that gives us His Wisdom and all else pertaining to salvation including the Faith of the Son of God that we now live our lives by.

In Christ: Phillip

dorcas wrote:
Logic said

Faith in God is the same as knowing that the chair that you sit on will hold you.

Really, I don't think so.

That's because you can't have faith in God unless He has spoken to you. This much is clear from Paul's thesis in the middle of Romans 10.

The same as when He speeks to you, you will [b]know[/b] what ever He sais will come to pass.

It doesn't matter if the chair don't speek and God does, it is about the [b]knowlege[/b] of the [u]fact[/u] that the chair will hold you and the [b]knowlege[/b] of the fact that God will be true to His Word.
Faith is the acceptance of truth which we must know.

You don't believe the chair will hold you because it says so.

I will pose a question:
Would you rather have all the faith in the world that 1/2 an inch of ice will hold you when you walk on it?
Or
No faith at all that 3ft. of ice will not hold you and walk on it?

Christinyou wrote:
Saving faith to Moslems is only saving faith to Islam.

Even Moslems say He was a good man and prophet, and devils also say who He is but won't call Him Lord.

He just said in Ephesians 3:21 that the faith of Christ is the faith dwelling in our hearts

[b]Galatians 2:16[/b] [color=990000]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith [b]in[/b] Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith [b]in[/b] Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/color]

In greek there is no preposition between the words "faith" and "christ", there fore, the best preposition to use is "in" not "of" because of pertains to ownership and Christ has no faith.

therefore Our Justification is by the Faith [b]in[/b] Jesus Christ, not by His faith.

Who's work is it that make us perfect in Christ? It is His working that we are striving in that gives us His Wisdom and all else pertaining to salvation including the Faith of the Son of God that we now live our lives by.

Sis wrote:

Whereas, when God speaks to a person, it is a totally convincing life-changing word, which commands our utmost obedience and even, if necesary, our very lives - no questions asked.

I agree with your first thought..."when God speaks to a person, it is a totally convincing life-changing word..." When I first heard and realized and understood this that you have written, it was life changing. I knew that God speaks, and I then knew by what means faith is germinated in man.

The second part of your thought, "which commands our utmost obedience..." I have found this to relate to our God given power of self determination. This is the point where if we choose to obey, we find something new about the "Life" that God has determined the means by which He saves us. When we grow in understanding, we then see His faithfulness, His glory, His love for us. From this continued path of walking with Him, trust takes root in our hearts. As trust grows, so does our hope for all things that we find in Him. This then becomes the reason why we choose to obey more readily to the ways of the cross and the washing and renewing, and the filling that causes our hearts to cry out to Him continually.

This type of faith was given to us as an example in the life of Abraham.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

dorcas wrote:

That is my point also, notice I said [b]know[/b] the chair will hold you.

OK. Let me tease this out a little bit more.....

When you say you 'know' the chair will hold you, you are depending entirely on your human reasoning. In fact, you have NO guarantee that the chair will hold you. You are trusting previous human experience - literally [i]experimental truth[/i].

Did you ever pray for God to do smething and had faith that He would, then God does not do what you had faith in Him to do what you prayed?

you had NO guarantee that the prayer would be granted you.
Same as the Chair.

I'm not being obtuse, really. [u]The [b]kind[/b] of faith[/u] you are putting in 'know'ing the chair will hold you, although it appears at first sight to be sound and dependable, is strictly limited.

Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
How many [b]kinds[/b] of [u]trust[/u], [u]belief[/u], or [u]obediance[/u] is there?

For instance, if I asked you to stake your life on your faith that the chair would hold you,

Whereas, when God speaks to a person, it is a totally convincing life-changing word, which commands [b]our utmost obedience[/b] and even, if necesary, our very lives - no questions asked.

You could say, "which commands our utmost faithfulleness"

rookie wrote:
I have found this to relate to our God given power of self determination. [b]This is the point where if we choose to obey,[/b] we find something new about the "Life" that God has determined the means by which He saves us.

trust takes root in our hearts. As trust grows, so does our hope for all things that we find in Him.

Please, answer this question;
I will pose a question:
Would you rather have all the faith in the world that 1/2 an inch of ice will hold you when you walk on it?
Or
No faith at all in 3ft. of ice will not hold you and walk on it?

The more we trust in the Faith of the Son of
God the less we ask for. Knowing that it is the Faith of Jesus Christ that is ruling our life the more we trust that He and His Father are certainly more qualified to make our lives pleasing to God. The Holy Spirit is here for nothing less that to give us the Mind of Christ and to bring us to the Truth He said He would give us by the Holy Spirit He prayed for us to receive in us forever. His Faith, His temple, which is me, His life, His Love, His all in all, which is who we are, Christians in this world as Christ is.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Who are we the Church to be subject to?

If wives to husbands in everything, how much more the Church are we to be subject to Him.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

His Faith, my faith, knowing my mind is His Mind and being renewed to that effect from the old man I used to be.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

His Faith brings us to true holiness and to true new creatures in Christ Jesus.

In the Faith of Christ unto perfection.

Colossians 1:22-29 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Phillip

Please, answer this question;
Would you rather have all the faith in the world that 1/2 an inch of ice will hold you when you walk on it?
Or
No faith at all in 3ft. of ice will not hold you and walk on it?
I am curious of y'alls answer.

Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

I cannot move trees and my faith would not make any difference in the thickness of the Ice. For all the faith in the world without Christ is as a clanging cymbal and I am nothing, so it would not matter how thick the Ice was, I would either fall through the Ice or not and no better next time which one to chose. If I did not know how thick the Ice was How could I choose, they both look the same, that is the only faith I have.

you can have great faith in thin ice and drown
but you can have no faith in thick ice and walk on water, but by the faith of Jesus Christ you don't need Ice to walk on living water.

The Faith of Christ truly lets me see which one to choose when it comes to the things of the Kingdom of Heaven.

What is your answer?

In Christ: Phillip

dorcas wrote:

Logic asked

Please, answer this question;
Would you rather have all the faith in the world that 1/2 an inch of ice will hold you when you walk on it?
Or
No faith at all in 3ft. of ice will not hold you and walk on it?
I am curious of y'alls answer.

Can I please clarify 'faith in the world'?

What does that mean? Or did you mean 'word'?

EDIT: Logic, it is clear that you reject the scriptural definition of faith as defined by Paul in Romans 10.

How can you maintain this stance [i]against[/i] the word of God?

There is only one kind of faith.

Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
This is faith

How did you give trust to your friands that they will believe you?

Or, did they learn to trust you?

Your Childeren obay you because they love you, and that is because they know you are trustworth to believe you.
You taught them who you are by a liveing example.

This is the same way how we have faith in God.

God does not [b]put[/b] trust(faith) in us, He teaches us to trust Him.
God doesn't [b]put[/b] beliefe in us, we choos to believe Him.
God does not [b]put[/b] obediance in us, we choose to obay based on the knowledge He gave us that we can relye on Him.
Faith is our part of our relaitionship with Him. [b]2Peter 1:3[/b] [color=990000]As His divine power has given to us all things pertaining to life and godliness [b]through the acknowledgement[/b] of the One Who is calling us through glory and virtue,[/color]
[b]Eph 1:17[/b] [color=990000]that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full [b]recognition[/b] of Him,[/color]

This acknowledgement and recognition is God reveling Himself to us that we might choose to have faith in Him.
We must choose to acknowledge and recognize the One calling us, this is [b]Romans 10:9[/b] [color=990000]Because if you [b]admit[/b] the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.[/color]

This is not "rejecting scriptural definition of faith as defined by Paul in Romans 10."

[b]Romans 10:14[/b] [color=990000]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed[/color](had faith in)? [color=990000]and how shall they believe[/color](have faith) [color=990000]in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?[/color]

He Gives us the knowledge of Himself so we might have faith.
He gives us knowledge, we turn that knowledge into faith.

Amen Orm,

It truly is the Faith of the Son of God. The original in the Greek makes it "OF". I don't like to get into different translation of the bible, but the KJV is one that has kept the original thought, that the Faith of God is the Faith of Jesus Christ and the Faith we now live by is His Faith. Most other translations change the little preposition to in, which puts the monkey on our back for our own works faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith ((of)) Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith ((of)) Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

by dia the faith (pistiV) of Jesus (IhsouV) Christ (CristoV,) even kai we hmeiV have believed pisteuw in eiV Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV, that ina we might be justified dikaiow by ek the faith pistiV of Christ CristoV

4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis

from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity

2424. Iesous
Search for G2424 in KJVSL
IhsouV Iesous ee-ay-sooce'

of Hebrew origin (3091); Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites:--Jesus.

5547. Christos
Search for G5547 in KJVSL
CristoV Christos khris-tos'

from 5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.

"especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: (which is Christ)--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity" (which are "OF" Christ)

Also Gal 2:20 the same.

The Faith of to the Faith in Christ. Amen.

In Christ by the Faith of Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

His Faith, my faith, knowing my mind is His Mind and being renewed to that effect from the old man I used to be.

As an exercise of what you have stated above...

What is Christ's mind on a current topic of democracy and freedom that democracy brings?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother logic wrote:

There is only one kind of faith.

Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
This is faith

This is not Scripturally correct.

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does substance of things hoped for mean to you?

In Christ
Jeff

Quote:

"What is Christ's mind on a current topic of democracy and freedom that democracy brings?"

Jeff I don't mix politics and religion. :-?

No matter, Christ is in control of both anyhow.
I don't believe there is any political agenda in heaven, maybe I would ascend to one political statement. 1 John 5:11-12 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Then: Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

In Christ: Phillip
P.S. Hope this is politically correct. 8-)

Brother Phillip wrote:

Jeff I don't mix politics and religion.

Paul would be able to discern between good and evil. The mind of Christ not only fills one with righteousness, but also leads one to battle against the powers and principalities of this world. To say one has the mind of Christ is true. One has access to all wisdom that is found in Christ through the Holy Spirit. But one must be willing to hear and then obey.

To state that one has the mind of Christ is the beginning, but we are called to more than the elementary things in Christ. The life of Abraham is given to us as an example of the maturing faith.

Heb. 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Why is it that we who have the mind of Christ do not see? We are tossed to and fro by the winds of doctrines that finds it's source in man.

In Christ
Jeff

Christinyou wrote:
Most other translations change the little preposition to in.

To clarify, in the original Greek, there is no preposition at all between the words "faith" and "Jesus" or "faith" and "Christ"

[b]Galatians 2:16[/b] [color=990000]ειδότες δὲ ὅτι ου δικαιουται ἄνθρωπος εξ ἔργων νόμου εν μὴ διὰ [b]πίστεως ᾿Ιησου Χριστου[/b][/color](faith Jesus Chrsit)[color=990000], καὶ ημεις εις Χριστὸν ᾿Ιησουν επιστεύσαμεν, ἵνα δικαιωθωμεν εκ [b]πίστεως Χριστου[/b][/color](faith Christ)[color=990000] καὶ ουκ εξ ἔργων νόμου, διότι ου δικαιωθήσεται εξ ἔργων νόμου πασα σάρξ.[/color]

This is how one would translate with the least prepositions to not have a bias...
[b]Galatians 2:16[/b] [color=990000]having known that man is not is-being-justified by works Law but by means faith Jesus Christ, we also believed into Christ Jesus, so that we-shall-be-being-justified out faith Christ and not out works Law, that no flesh all will be-being-justified out works Law![/color]

However, sinse God doed not have faith(why would He need faith) the preposition of does not work for today.
the preposition of befroe a word denoted ownership as "The voice [b]of[/b] one crying in the wilderness" means the voice belongs to the one in the wilderness

So then, "the faith [b]of[/b] jesus" doses not make sense because Jesus does not have faith.

However, Faith needs an object. "the faith [b]in[/b] Jesus applies correct usage of a preposition.

which puts the monkey on our back for our own works faith

rookie wrote:
Brother logic wrote:

There is only one kind of faith.

Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
This is faith

This is not Scripturally correct.

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does substance of things hoped for mean to you?

In the Hebrew mind [u]faith[/u] and [u]faithfulness[/u] are the same thing.

[u]Faithfulness[/u] is loyalty and [b]obedience[/b]. [u]Faith[/u] is another word for [b]trust[/b] and [b]believe[/b], in which we put toward GOD.

[b]Hebrews 11:1[/b] [color=990000]Now faith is the [u]substance[/u] of things hoped for, the [u]evidence[/u] of things not seen.[/color]
In other words faith is [u]substantial evidence[/u] of our hope, and a right response to God.

This substantial evidence is the action or works(james) that we take based on what we know to be true, but have not seen.
This is why faith with out works is dead; faith without substantial evidence is not faith at all.

This hope that comes with our faith is not a wish but a [b]knowledge[/b] in which we await, our hope is not a wish but a [b]certainty.[/b]
This verse tells us Who our hope is in, [b]1Tim 1:1[/b] [color=990000]Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Savior, and [u]Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope[/u].[/color]

Is Jesus not factual are we not knowledgable about Him?
That is why the below is right:
Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
This is faith

Brother Phillip...

I was contemplating on how I responded to you in the last two posts. I am sorry, the questions I asked were not fair.

For us who believe, the mind of Christ is freely given. What we do with Him is another matter.

In Christ
Jeff

Logic wrote:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
In other words faith is substantial evidence of our hope, and a right response to God.

In terms of Abraham, we are given many examples of what makes up the "substance" that he hoped for.

Have you ever contemplated about what a profound change Abraham experienced when God spoke to him the first time?

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said to Abram:
\t“Get out of your country,
\tFrom your family
\tAnd from your father’s house,
\tTo a land that I will show you.
2 \tI will make you a great nation;
\tI will bless you
\tAnd make your name great;
\tAnd you shall be a blessing.
3 \tI will bless those who bless you,
\tAnd I will curse him who curses you;
\tAnd in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

The substance of what is hoped for consists of this experience in that God spoke to him.

Gen. 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.” And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him. 8 And he moved from there to the mountain east of Bethel, and he pitched his tent with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; there he built an altar to the LORD and called on the name of the LORD.

Here is the next example given to us in Scripture where God spoke to Abram. What was his response? He built an altar...

Again is another "item" that is added to the substance of what is hoped for...

Gen. 12:17 But the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, “She is my sister’? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way.” 20 So Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they sent him away, with his wife and all that he had.

Here is another 'item' that is part of the substance of what is hoped for...

Gen. 13:14 And the LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.”

Here is another 'item" that makes up the substance of what is hoped for...

This is Abraham's story. We could look at Isaac, Jacob, or Joseph and see this same precept working in their lives...

There is a promise that must precede faith...as God reveals the content of the promise...the hearer begins to see His faithfulness to deliver what was promised. The hearer goes from faith to faith, seeing His loving care. Trust is the result of the continuing growth in faith from one day to the next. Trust is grown in the hearer by the faithfulness of God to deliver on the promise...

In Christ
Jeff

The [u]American Heritage Dictionary[/u]

[b]Faith:[/b] Belief that does not rest on material evidence. (See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust)
Therefore, we need faith now when we don't see Him.
Faith is not needed with physical proof(when we see Him in His presence).

The next veres is about when we have the physical evidence which is in His presence.
[b]1Corinth 13:12-13[/b] [color=990000]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[b]:13[/b] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.[/color]

This is saying that faith is no more when we are face to face with HIM because there is no need of faith(proof of material evidence).
[b]1Corinth 13:10[/b] [color=990000]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/color]

If Jesus has faith, that would change the definition of the meaning for faith.
Furtheremore, there would still be faith even in His preasance, because if jesus has faith, there will always be faith.

You are contradicting reality when you say Jesus has faith.

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary - faith

Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true
(2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust.

It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of
faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests. Faith is the result of teaching (Rom. 10:14-17).
Knowledge is an essential element in all faith, and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith (John 10:38; 1 John 2:3).
Yet the two are distinguished in this respect, that faith includes in it assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the understanding.
Assent to the truth is of the essence of faith, and the ultimate ground on which our assent to any revealed truth rests is the veracity of God.

Historical faith is the apprehension of and assent to certain statements which are regarded as mere facts of history. Temporary faith is that state of mind which is awakened in men (e.g., Felix) by the exhibition of the truth and by the influence of religious sympathy, or by what is sometimes styled the common operation of the Holy Spirit.
[b]End quote[/b]

Now, if there is called "saveing faith" it is the same [b]kind[/b] of faith as all faith, but the only diference is that is rewarded with Eternal Salvation.

Brother Logic wrote:

Faith: Belief that does not rest on material evidence. (See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust)
Therefore, we need faith now when we don't see Him.
Faith is not needed with physical proof(when we see Him in His presence).

The substance of the evidence not seen is brought about by the Holy Spirit. We have assurance in all things because we are enabled by the Holy Spirit, to hear what God is speaking to us, and to see how He is working all around us. This understanding defines what is of the carnal mind and that which is from the law of the Spirit.

1Cor. 2:9 But as it is written:
\t“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
\tNor have entered into the heart of man
\tThe things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

1Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So Paul then points to why the Corinthians struggle...

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

How many of us preach the doctrines of men. If one were to look at ones life and where he or she spends most of their time in searching for God, do we spend more time in Scriptures or the writings of men? The writings of men will always cause division, because we do see unclearly now...

If one seeks God in Scripture and allows the Holy Spirit to wash away what men teach, then one will see and hear and then understand and then apply the wisdom that is from above. If God permits...

Heb. 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

In Christ
Jeff

.

rookie wrote:
Brother Logic wrote:

Faith: Belief that does not rest on material evidence. (See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust)
Therefore, we need faith now when we don't see Him.
Faith is not needed with physical proof(when we see Him in His presence).

The substance of the evidence not seen is brought about by the Holy Spirit.

The substance of the evidence not seen is our actions that we base our belief on from what we can not see.

We have assurance in all things because we are enabled by the Holy Spirit, to hear what God is speaking to us,.

No, we have ears for that. We choose to accept the truth by our own will.

...and to see how He is working all around us....

This is still an act of our will.

This understanding defines what is of the carnal mind and that which is from the law of the Spirit

Romans 8:7 is bout the carnal mind as a mentality, not the mind in wich we reason.

The greek word is φρόνημα (phronēma)-fron'-ay-mah.
Not νοῦς (nous) - nooce, which is our intellect or our understanding
It is not even, γνώμη (gnōmē) - gno'-may which is cognition and resolve, consent, judgment, mind, purpose, and will.

Brother Logic wrote:

The substance of the evidence not seen is our actions that we base our belief on from what we can not see.

Romans 7:

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

This is Paul's teaching. He finds (in his flesh) nothing good...and how to perform what is good he does not find.

Yet in Scripture we find that one can do righteous works, but how?

David knew...Psa. 5:8 \tLead me, O LORD, in Your righteousness because of my enemies;
\tMake Your way straight before my face.

When God speaks to David, how does David know?

In Christ
Jeff

By what manner of law? of works? Not at all! but by a law of faith. "Law" in this instance is rule, or plan. This "law," or principle, of faith, applies not only to our justification, but to every aspect of the believer's life thereafter,--"building up yourselves on your most holy faith." "That life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God."

How can faith be Holy, if none are Holy but God? There is only one way, that is the Faith of the Son of God birthed in you as Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

Romans 3:19-27 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Who's Law of Faith is it? Is it man's Law of Faith or God's Law of Faith? Since man cannot make a law unto himself to attain salvation, the Law of Faith is of God, by God and through Jesus Christ.

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:"

Romans 3:27-31 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We are justified by Faith, since justification is by Jesus Christ only, then faith must come with it to be able to be Justified. That is why God made Jesus Christ our justification and redemption, by His Law of Faith, through His Law of Love, in His new commandment, that you love one another.

Why would anybody want to make the faith of salvation his own principle of faith outside of the saving Faith of Jesus Christ? Answer: Self-righteousness.

Romans 3:30-31 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Through the birth of Jesus Christ in us, for He is the only One who can establish the Law that is fulfilled in Him unto righteousness by Faith of Christ, Yea, He established our most Holy Faith in Himself.

By faith is of Abraham, Through Faith is of Christ by His justification in us and redeeming us by that Faith in His Blood.

This is where our most Holy Faith comes from;
1 Corinthians 1:2-5 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

Grace, Faith; Eph 2:8-9, redemption, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, Justification and all else that pertains to the Faith and Grace that saves us in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Sanctification puts us to the use God intended from before the foundation of the world, that is by the Law of Faith, The Law of Love, we are what God chose us to be in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.

Read this carefully and the Faith of the Son of God cannot be denied in the believer for all things to the Church, His Body, that includes the Faith to make His Church flourish on the principle that Jesus Christ is the Son of The Living God.

Ephesians 1:3-23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which he hath purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted (by His Faith) in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, (by His Faith) after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. Jude 1:20-21 But now ye, beloved, building up yourselves concerning your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

In The Faith of the Son of God who gave me Faith to believe and Loved me First so I can love Him: Phillip

rookie wrote:
Sis asked...

Is 'the faith of Abraham' and New Testament believers, simply faith in God's existence, or, is it specifically faith in God's word, (God's existence being taken as indubitable)?

1. When He speaks, do you listen and obey?

2. What outcome do you observe from obedience?

3. What conclusions can you make based on the outcome?

This is the walk or ancient path...

I thought I'd bring it back to this point, and add my own two cents, but firstly, I remember hearing Ron Bailey drop a "drive by comment" in one of his sermons, where he said "You have to have the faith of Abraham, before you can have the faith of Christ." and then went on to say that he would go into that any further. The thought of this plagued me, until I met someone who had the "faith of Abraham" and was coming to the place of receiving the "faith of Christ".

The key is in Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

The fact is, saving faith cannot be compared to faith in a chair, because saving faith is an unprecedented trust to the one who receives is. I love Kierkegaard's frequent references to the leap of faith (even if you want to throw out everything else he said). The is a sense of, "This Book claims to be written by God, who I don't believe exists. In order to be saved by Him, I need to believe that I need saving, which I have no concrete evidence is true, and that even if I did need it, that it is truly available for me to receive."

I don't know about you, but I can remember the turmoil that kind of thinking produced, until there was sudden peace, and I knew that I was saved. I couldn't even tell you what persuaded me that it was true, and their is a very important reason why, because saving faith is a gift from God. I didn't conjure it, it was given to me.

But the fact still remains that I allowed myself to entertain the notion of the possibility of God's existence.

I spoke with a man, recently who shared with me the following (bear in mind, this is from a new Christian, of Jewish origin, who is still trying to come to terms with what has happened to him. His terminology is a bit rough):

In my experience I said a prayer saying 'God I give up, I can't get to you, I don't really believe in him but will let Jesus into the equation'. The next evening I was baptised by the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, etc (he looked up 'charismaticmovement' on wikipedia after a pentecostal late told him that this was what his experience was) The Pentecostals say that Holy Spirit baptism is subsequent to salvation. However, it was another month before I intellectually accepted Jesus (ie had faith in Jesus).

These are the events that he later interpreted as "Holy Spirit baptism", as published online, in his testimony (I have boldened the actual part that he was referring to):

Sunday morning everyone was congratulating each other on a life changing weekend (he was attending an Alpha Course camp) but I felt rather disappointed. We finished the weekend of activities with a little questionnaire which was supposed to identify our spiritual gifts. I ended up the only person getting ‘Stimulating the Faith of Others’. This made me even more depressed that the whole thing was ridiculous since how could I stimulate the faith of others if I didn’t have any faith myself? “This is truly absurd.” I thought.

We arrived back at our local church by the early evening and by the time I got home I was exhausted both mentally and emotionally. Really wanted nothing to do with thinking about God for the first time since I arrived in (the country that he lives in), I just threw on a DVD of some Hollywood action movie and sat back to relax.

After a few minutes I suddenly felt that divine presence again though this time it was particularly strong. Despite feeling fed up with it all, I decided to once again get on my knees and pray for that presence, if it was God, to be made real to me. Looking at the clock on my computer it was 6:26pm.

[b]Kneeling down I closed my eyes to pray but then realized I felt quite hot. Looking down at the tiles on my bedroom floor which at that moment looked particularly nice and cool, I thought I would lie down. As I did, I felt myself shivering a bit and then started to breathe deeply. The shivering intensified along with my breathing until I found myself trembling so much that I was almost convulsing on the floor, “Now this is really weird, am I doing this myself?” I thought. I then felt an overwhelmingly intense physical force in the core of my body and started to breathe much harder, almost hyperventilating. As I exhaled it was almost as if I started mumbling. And then as the force I felt in my body became even more intense, that mumbling became words. But not English. Not any language I knew or had ever heard of.[/b]

After a few moments of desperately and insistently chanting what seemed to be repeated words, I felt that the feeling welling up inside of me was so intense that if it didn’t stop I would burst. Forcing myself up I said, “God, if this is you, then you have to stop, I can’t take this.” And instantaneously the feeling stopped. Sitting on my floor in a state numbed shock I thought, “I…think…this means…that God exists. The God really actually exists.”

Something occurred to me, as we spoke. If we were to overlay the principles of how salvation begins (ie, Repentance, Justification, Regeneration, Adoption) his experience fits, to a point. My response to his comments about his experience:

to quote an old Hymn, "Trust and obey, for there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus than to trust and obey"

Trust = Faith

Firstly you surrendered you right to control your salvation and this is a form of repentance (ie, "I give up"="I surrender"). That is actually the reason why He met you, because you came to Him on His terms, and you didn't even know it because it is the grace of God that works salvation and not something that we do.

"...I don't really believe in him but wil let Jesus into the equation..." is actually an expression of trust. It's like this, "I don't know about this, but I guess you know what your doing."

Justification is freely given to all but it is only received by faith. Now, notice that I referred to Justification and Regeneration as Siamese Twins? You placed your trust in the crucifixion of Christ (granted only in the minutest degree), and then Christ gave you the saving faith.

We then went on to discuss the faith of Abraham (because I was beginning to make the connection, in light of Heb 11:8), and the follow correspondence occurred:

[b]Me: -[/b] He just got up and went...not knowing where he was going...not knowing what he was doing.... Sound familiar?
[b]Friend -[/b] So I surrendered ('God I can't figure you out') I trusted Christ ('I let you into the equation') by God's grace (that was I pretty pathetic conversion prayer of mine) I receive more than I deserve.
[b]Me -[/b] Of course...what did you think that you deserved something?

I believe that the faith of Abraham is obedience in spite of evident assurance. Where the faith of Christ is the one that saves, sustains and leads. (Gal 2:20)

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[i]([b]Note:[/b] I have edited details out the correspondence I've quoted, in the interest of maintaining my friends privacy, simply because I haven't mentioned the fact that I was posting this here. However, he is very transparent on the forum that I met him at, but it's better to be safe than sorry.)[/i]

This also is the understanding of the scriptures.

Quote; The key is in Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

Acts 3:15-16 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. And His name (Jesus Christ)through faith in His name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by Him (Jesus Christ) hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. (of Jesus Christ)

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(Because Christ In us fulfilled the Law in us)

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

This is the faith of Abraham that is still waiting for the Faith of Jesus Christ, when He will write His word in their hearts in a further time still not attained. The "by Faith of Abraham" for the uncircumcision is not the "through faith of Christ" for the uncircumcision. By faith must proceed the Faith through.

Hebrews 11:32-40 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

They will be made perfect when Christ is sitting on the Throne of David in the New Jerusalem.

We are already made perfect by Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In the Faith of Jesus Christ through the Faith of His Blood. Now made perfect by the Christ that is in us.

Phillip

In reply to dorcas's original post i might have a little to add.

What abraham believed was the GOSPEL. Yes i said the gospel. This is stated in galatians 3. If you ask how the Gospel was applicable to Abraham before christ ever walked the earth the answer is in revelation. Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the Earth."
Although the O.T. saints didn't have complete understanding of what God was speaking of, they did have partial knowledge. They believed what they were given of the Gospel. Even we, as N.T. believers don't fully understand the mystery of the gospel. In galatians, Abraham was told that the heathen would be justified by faith. God spoke this to Abraham by saying, "In thee shall all nations be called blessed." Well abraham believed God and responded with action so it was faith with works(action) and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
I think Abraham is the father of faith because he is the first person God made the Inheritance covenant with in Hebrews 11:8,9 (since he was not the first to be justified by faith). Abraham never partook of the fullness of this covenant on earth, only in heaven. This is because the fullness wasn't revealed until christ died and the Holy Spirit came.

I might quickly add that many religions and wicked men believe in God's existence. "even the devils believe." But are in no way justified by that faith.

Also, In Hebrews 11 it says that enoch pleased God. In the next vs it is says "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that his is, AND that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Believing He is God is one thing, wanting to be close to him is totally different.

MattChenier wrote:

What abraham believed was the GOSPEL. Yes i said the gospel.

Logic.. let me say this... that abraham was not justified by the works of the law, but by the works which accompany faith.. works as in "action." Let me just say this... Where in the law did moses command the children of israel to offer their children up as sacrifice.
And yes he did believe the promise of God. The promise that God has power over death. Just like I believe that God has power over death. And who is the "resurrection and the life." Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life." So if Abraham believed in power over death, he believed in the One who IS power over death. therefore Abraham had faith in Christ. He just didn't have the full revelation of the Messiah.

Also, I didn't say it was the Gospel... Galatians 3 said it was the Gospel.

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

This "righteousness of faith" is the same righteousness of faith that you are saved by. Grace. as stated in Romans 4:16 Grace was the promise before the law ever existed. The purpose of the law is stated also in Gal. 3

Ga 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

"before moses was I AM" The Covenant of "saved by grace through faith" is permanent and existed first while the law was only temperarily added to reprove of sin.

Brother Matt wrote;

And yes he did believe the promise of God. The promise that God has power over death. Just like I believe that God has power over death. And who is the "resurrection and the life." Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life." So if Abraham believed in power over death, he believed in the One who IS power over death. therefore Abraham had faith in Christ. He just didn't have the full revelation of the Messiah.

You have traveled the same path as I have traveled in Scripture Brother Matt. It is truly a treasure that surpasses all the silver and gold of this world...

Your last sentence, "He just didn't have the full revelation of the Messiah." Have you ever considered Melchizedeck, the King of Righteousness, the King of Peace?

God Bless and keep feeding on the bread of life...

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Logic wrote:

You may say it was the gospel,but paul sais that Abraham believed the promise, that he should be the heir of the world Rom 4:13

In Romans 10:16, Paul teaches that not only Abraham but all of the nation of Israel heard the gospel...

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

When Jesus sent the apostles out the first time, they preached the gospel...

Luke 7:22 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Luke 9:6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

If you carefully search the Scriptures you will find that Jesus had not even begun to teach His disciples about the cross.

The apostles preached from the OT to proclaim the gospel...

In Christ
Jeff

Gen. 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

When God tells Abram, "I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."

When God says to Abraham, Genesis 17: 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you."

What does God give to Abraham? And by what means is this covenant enacted?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Logic wrote:

I see striking parallels to Wesley's life before his heart was "strangely warmed".

My first encounter with God occurred 10 years ago in my garden. I was contemplating how I would raise up my three year old son at the time. I thought to myself, "I should teach my son about God," just as my parents before me did in the Catholic traditions.

At that moment a thought popped into my mind, "How can you teach your son about Me, for you do not know me?"

That was the first overwhelming time in my life. There were many questions that followed in the next few weeks. But this I knew, "Yes God exists."

If you look at the ministry of Jesus, it begins with signs and wonders, and then it progresses to teaching one what is required of those who seek Him. Then the narrative begins to speak about dieing. Then comes the teaching of the ressurection and new life.

If you compare this narative to the example given to us in the life of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, one will find many similarities.

Just a thought...

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:
If you look at the ministry of Jesus, it begins with signs and wonders, and then it progresses to teaching one what is required of those who seek Him. Then the narrative begins to speak about dieing. Then comes the teaching of the ressurection and new life.

If you compare this narative to the example given to us in the life of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, one will find many similarities.

Have noticed this. The thought of the relevance and interpretation of the words "sings" and "wonders" has been filling my mind with wonder of late. The whole Revelation to death to new life. It's like, "I'll meet you where you are at, and if you, in turn meet Me where I was at, and then we can dwell together where I am now, forever starting now."

Ahh..the incredible synery of the Scriptures. From the beginning to teh end, the story never changes.

MattChenier wrote:
Logic.. let me say this... that abraham was not justified by the works of the law, but by the works which accompany faith...

MattChenier wrote:

Also, I didn't say it was the Gospel... Galatians 3 said it was the Gospel.

MattChenier wrote:
What abraham believed was the GOSPEL. Yes i said the gospel.

The purpose of the law is stated also in Gal. 3

the law was only temperarily added to reprove of sin.

Furethermore, the Law is not temperary, accept that it will not be needed in Glory.

I was listening to an old time preacher, Alan Redpath, moments ago. He was speaking of revival and how it is always available to those who know God. He said this about the christian life...

"The test of life is appetite, if you're hungry you're well, if you have lost your appetite you're sick."

Then he quotes this verse...

Is. 44:3 \tFor I will pour water on him who is thirsty,
\tAnd floods on the dry ground;
\tI will pour My Spirit on your descendants,
\tAnd My blessing on your offspring;

This is both the promise and the gospel...

The ebbs and flows of life in the believer point to this central precept of faith...we are saved by grace through faith. This precept has been in place since the foundation of this world. The living water will always draw one to the source which is found in Christ.

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff

Isa 44:3
For I will pour water - Floods, rivers, streams, and waters, are often used in the Scriptures, and especially in Isaiah, to denote plenteous divine blessings, particularly the abundant influences of the Holy Spirit (see the note at Isa 35:6-7). That it here refers to the Holy Spirit and his influences, is proved by the parallel expressions in the subsequent part of the verse.

Upon him that is thirsty - Or rather, 'on the thirsty land.' The word צמא tsame' refers here rather to land, and the figure is taken from a burning sandy desert, where waters would be made to burst out in copious streams (see Isa 35:6-7). The sense is, that God would bestow blessings upon them as signal and marvelous, as if floods of waters were made to descend on the dry, parched, and desolated earth.

And floods - The word נוזלים nozelym, from נזל nazal, "to flow," to run as liquids, means properly flowings, and is used for streams and rivers Ex 15:8; Ps 78:16; Pr 5:15; Jer. 18 It means here that the spiritual influences which would descend on the afflicted, desolate, comfortless, and exiled people, would be like torrents of rain poured on the thirsty earth. This beautiful figure is common in the Scriptures:

He shall come down like rain upon the grass,

And as showers that water the earth.

Ps 72:6

My doctrine shall drop as the rain

My speech shall distil as the dew

As the small rain upon the tender herb,

And as the showers upon the grass.

De 32:2

I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed - (See Isa 59:21). This is in accordance with the promises everywhere made in he Bible to the people of God, specifically Israel (see Ge 12:7; 13:15; 15:18; 17:7-8; Ex 20:6; and Exd 9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. De 7:9; Ps 89:4; Isa 43:5). It may be regarded, first, as a promise of the richest blessings to them as parents - since there is to a parent's heart no prospect so consoling as that which relates to his offspring; and, secondly, as an assurance of the perpetuity of their religion; of their freedom from Egypt, return from captivity, and their restoration to their own land.
By: Albert Barnes, notes on the bible.

This is not the Gospel of Christ hidden from all time and revealed only to Paul, the Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, the final Gospel that has nothing to be added to, because we are now birthed son's of God, not returning to the land of Israel but already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Which is a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly kingdom which is promised to Israel.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Ephesians 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Again: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

When did this happen? "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead"

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

In Christ, by the Christinyou2: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

This is not the Gospel of Christ hidden from all time and revealed only to Paul,

Who is the Holy One that Solomon testifies of?

Prov. 9:10 \t“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
\tAnd the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

I believe that Christ is the Holy One, how about you?

In Christ
Jeff

Proverbs 9:10 The fear

Titles and names
Of Christ
Abraham’s Seed (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16).
Advocate (1 John 2:1).
Almighty (Revelation 1:8).
Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13).
Amen (Revelation 3:14).
Angel (Genesis 48:16; Exodus 23:20,21).
Angel of God’s presence (Isaiah 63:9).
Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:15-22).
Apostle (Hebrews 3:1).
Arm of the Lord (Isaiah 51:9; 53:1).
Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
Author of eternal salvation (Hebrews 5:9).
Beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14).
Beloved (Ephesians 1:6).
Beloved Son (Matthew 12:18).
Blessed and only Potentate (1 Timothy 6:15).
Branch (Jeremiah 23:5; Zechariah 3:8; 6:12).
Bread of Life (John 6:35, 48).
Bridegroom (Matthew 9:15).
Bright and Morning Star (Revelation 22:16).
Captain of Salvation (Hebrews 2:10).
Captain of the Lord’s hosts (Joshua 5:14,15).
Carpenter (Mark 6:3).
Carpenter’s Son (Matthew 13:55).
Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6).
Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4).
Christ (Matthew 16:20; Mark 14:16; Luke 23:2).
Christ Jesus (Acts 19:4; Romans 3:24; 8:1; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1:30).
Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39; 1 Timothy 1:12).
Christ of God (Luke 9:20).
Christ the Lord (Luke 2:11).
Commander (Isaiah 55:4).
Consolation of Israel (Luke 2:25).
Cornerstone (Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20).
Counselor (Isaiah 9:6).
Creator (John 1:3).
David (Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23).
Dayspring (Luke 1:78).
Deliverer (Romans 11:26).
Desire of all nations (Haggai 2:7).
Door (John 10:7).
Elect of God (Isaiah 42:1).
Eternal life (1 John 1:2; 5:20).
Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).
Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11).
Faithful witness (Revelation 1:5; 3:14).
First and Last (Revelation 1:17; 2:8).
Firstborn (Psalms 89:27; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 1:5).
Forerunner (Hebrews 6:20).
Fountain (Zechariah 13:1).
Glory of the Lord (Isaiah 40:5).
God (Isaiah 40:9; John 20:28).
God blessed forever (Romans 9:5).
God’s fellow (Zechariah 13:7).
Good Shepherd (John 10:14).
Governor (Matthew 2:6).
Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14).
Head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18).
Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2).
High Priest (Hebrews 4:14).
Holy Child (Acts 4:27).
Holy One (Psalms 16:10, with Acts 2:27; 3:14).
Holy One of God (Mark 1:24).
Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 41:14; 54:5).
Horn of salvation (Luke 1:69).
I AM, (Exodus 3:14, with John 8:58).
Image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
Jesus (Matthew 1:21; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).
Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1).
Jesus of Nazareth (Matthew 21:11; Mark 1:24; Luke 24:19).
Judge (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:8).
Judge of Israel (Micah 5:1).
Just One (Acts 7:52; 22:14).
King (Zechariah 9:9, with Matthew 21:5).
King of Glory (Psalms 24:7-10).
King of Israel (John 1:49).
King of Kings (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14).
King of peace (Hebrews 7:2).
King of righteousness (Hebrews 7:2).
King of Saints (Revelation 15:3).
King of Salem (Hebrews 7:1).
King of the Jews (Matthew 2:2; 27:37; John 19:19).
King of Zion (Matthew 21:25).
Lamb (Revelation 5:6, 12; 13:8; 21:22; 22:3).
Lamb of God (John 1:29, 36).
Lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22).
Leader (Isaiah 55:4).
Life (John 14:6; Colossians 3:4; 1 John 1:2).
Light of the world (John 1:8; 8:12).
Lily of the valleys (Song of Solomon 2:1).
Lion of the tribe of Judah (Revelation 5:5).
Living Bread (John 6:51).
Living Stone (1 Peter 2:4).
Lord and Savior (2 Peter 1:11; 3:18).
Lord Christ (Colossians 3:24).
Lord God Almighty (Revelation 15:3).
Lord God of the holy prophets (Revelation 22:6).
Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59; Colossians 3:17).
Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17; 16:31; 20:21).
Lord of all (Acts 10:36).
Lord of glory (1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1).
Lord of Hosts (Isaiah 44:6).
Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14; 19:16).
Lord our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6; 33:16).
Man of Sorrows (Isaiah 53:3).
Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).
Messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1).
Messiah (Daniel 9:25; John 1:41).
Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6).
Mighty One of Israel (Isaiah 30:29).
Mighty One of Jacob (Isaiah 49:26; 60:16).
Morningstar (Revelation 22:16; 2 Peter 1:19).
Most Holy (Daniel 9:24).
Nazarene (Matthew 2:23).
Offspring of David (Revelation 22:16).
Only Begotten Son (John 1:18).
Only Begotten (John 1:14).
Our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7).
Potentate (1 Timothy 6:15).
Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
Prince (Acts 5:31).
Prince of life (Acts 3:15).
Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Prince of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5).
Prophet (Matthew 21:11; Luke 24:19; John 7:40).
Rabbi (John 1:49).
Rabboni (John 20:16).
Ransom (1 Timothy 2:6).
Redeemer (Job 19:25; Isaiah 59:20; Isaiah 60:16).
Resurrection and life (John 11:25).
Rock (1 Corinthians 10:4).
Rock of Offence (1 Peter 2:8).
Root of David (Revelation 5:5; 22:16).
Root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:10).
Rose of Sharon (Song of Solomon 2:1).
Ruler of Israel (Micah 5:2).
Savior (Luke 2:11; 2 Peter 2:20; 3:18).
Savior of the Body (Ephesians 5:23).
Sceptre (Numbers 24:17).
Second Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45).
Second Man (1 Corinthians 15:47).
Seed of David (2 Timothy 2:8).
Seed of woman (Genesis 3:15).
Servant (Isaiah 42:1; 52:13; 53:11; Acts 4:30).
Servant of Rulers (Isaiah 49:7).
Shepherd (Mark 14:27).
Shepherd and Overseer of Souls (1 Peter 2:25).
Shepherd of Israel (Psalms 80:1).
Shiloh (Genesis 49:10).
Son of David (Matthew 9:27).
Son of God (Luke 1:35; John 1:49).
Son of Joseph (John 6:42).
Son of man (John 5:27).
Son of the Blessed (Mark 14:61).
Son of the Father (2 John 1:3).
Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32).
Star (Numbers 24:17).
Stone of Stumbling (1 Peter 2:8).
Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2).
Sure Foundation (Isaiah 28:16).
Surety (Hebrews 7:22).
Teacher (Matthew 23:8; John 3:2).
Tender Plant (Isaiah 53:2).
True God (1 John 5:20).
True Light (John 1:9).
True Vine (John 15:1).
Truth (John 14:6).
Vine (John 15:1).
Way (John 14:6).
Wisdom (Proverbs 8:12).
Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
Witness (Isaiah 55:4; Revelation 1:5).
Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6).
Word (John 1:1; 1 John 5:7).
Word of God (Revelation 19:13).
Word of Life (1 John 1:1).

Brother Phillip wrote:

Solomon was not speaking of Jesus Christ the Only begotten Son of God who had not been born yet. He was speaking of The National God of Israel.

1Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Also...

9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;

Here Paul teaches that the nation was under Christ and that some of them tempted Christ...

Is this the National God of Israel?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

We are made righteous by "Jehovah our Righteousness"

Job 33:26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.

What does this Scripture mean when the Holy Spirit says that "He restores to man His righteousness."?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip,

How does one know that he has the "faith of Christ?"

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:
How does one know that he has the "faith of Christ?"

In Christ
Jeff

The works here is obediance.
One might only think they have faith just because they admit the truth. However, their actions speak louder than words.
Obediance prooves your faith or Completes your faith.
[b]James 2:22[/b] [color=990000]Do you see that his faith was working together with his works(obediance), and by means of the works his faith was perfected?[/color]

Faith is concieved from acknowlagment of the truth and perfected in the reliance on the reality of it.

Faith is proven bi works, works of faith is in LOVE!!!!

[b]James 2:15-17 [color=990000]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[b]:16[/b] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[b]:17[/b] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.[/color]

[b]1John 3:16-18[/b] [color=990000]Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
[b]:17[/b] But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
[b]:18[/b] My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.[/color]

dorcas wrote:
On p5 Logic stated

If Jesus has faith, that would change the definition of the meaning for faith.

I don't understand what you find difficult about the idea that Jesus exercised faith. He became a man like us. He was frequently led to comment on the lack of faith of the people in Israel because their lack of faith disappointed Him so.

[b]Hebrews 11:1[/b] [color=990000]Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.[/color]

In other words faith is substantial evidence of our [b]hope[/b].

Therefore,
[b]Rom 8:24-25[/b] [color=990000] for we were saved by hope, but hope being seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope?
[b]:24[/b] But if we hope for what we do not see, through patience we wait eagerly.[/color]

Based on the [u]American Heritage Dictionary[/u], Faith is Belief that does not rest on physical proof or material evidence.

All I am saing that Jesus is God, therefore, He hadn't Hope nor Faith, it was actual knowlege that He had. He knew that He was God so He didn't need faith.

Furethermore, the Law is not temperary, accept that it will not be needed in Glory.

The Law was added and is temporary until the New Covenant which indisputably replaced the Old Covenant.

"""by rookie on 2006/11/27 21:40:22

Brother Phillip,

How does one know that he has the "faith of Christ?"

In Christ
Jeff"""

The work of Christ for us is the object of faith; the Spirit’s work in us is the one who works this faith... and our peace and justification come. It is so simple, that we just can't believe it, but it is true, our faith cannot save, only the Faith of Jesus Christ, the object of Faith itself makes salvation, by only believing work.

Jesus indeed is our Savior, not our Faith. But our Faith, our belief, is like the rod of Moses: Without the touch of the rod the water would not have gushed forth from the rock; yet it was the rock and not the rod, that contained and gave the water, even when Moses did it wrong, the Rock gushed forth life, and Christ is our living water that gushes forth life by our simply saying yes or no to God when he offers His Son to the whole world, by the Author and Finisher of our Faith. We are not the Author of Faith or the Finisher, that is why we go from Faith to greater Faith. Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

""""Some scholars claim that "the most common distortion in the Church today of 'the doctrine of Grace' is in Christians attempting to make faith an action on our part, rather than humbly accepting that the faith we have is by the sovereign action of God. No one has faith of their own free will, faith comes by the divine will of God, through the gracious work of Christ. Yet in many circles we are continually told that the scriptures should read our 'faith in Christ,' rather than the 'faith of Christ.'"
They even mention the word "heresy", and so, all those Bibles above mentioned would be heretics: "A man is not justified by his own faith or his own work (in keeping the law), but by the 'faith of Christ.' Being justified by our own faith would be Biblically heretical. The Holy canon is clear, accurate, and unambiguous in it's declarations that we are justified by the faith of Christ. Just as clear is that it is not by 'our faith in Christ,' which would mean we are justified by our own action of believing. This would be an impossibility. We are justified by His work, not our own. If there was the slightest chance that it was by our faith in Christ that we were justified, that would be a merit system for man. This is not something through which true grace could work. In fact, it would be anti-Christ, and anti-grace (Romans 11:6). For if at all by our works, it cannot be by grace." """" http://members.aol.com/twarren17/faithof.html

In Christ: Phillip

Some scholars claim that "the most common distortion in the Church today of 'the doctrine of Grace' is in Christians attempting to make faith an action on our part, rather than humbly accepting that the faith we have is by the sovereign action of God. No one has faith of their own free will, faith comes by the divine will of God, through the gracious work of Christ.

How is the, "accepting truth based on evidence and witnesses and acting on those proofes", something given?

When a judge sees all the witnesses and goes thruogh all the evidence, is the faith given to him to give the verdict or does he decide to make the verdict based on the criteria?

This is how we choose to follow Christ.

There is one who was witnessed to that did not choose to follow Christ untill Jesus was prooven to be a real character in history and prooven to be God; only then did that person be able yo have faith to follow Jesus.

Jesus was prooven to be real by witnesses(apostles) that were also prooven to be real in history.
The Jesus was prooven to be God by His word which is the evidence.

Jeff wrote,

"""Jesus was prooven to be real by witnesses(apostles) that were also prooven to be real in history.
The Jesus was prooven to be God by His word which is the evidence."""

Why then was He crucified? The Ones that believed were given Jesus by His Father and His revelation the Jesus Christ was His Son and Jesus lost none except the one scripture foretold, Judas. He will not loose any that are given Him by the Father, for no man can get to Jesus on his own.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

Do you see our grace or our faith in any of this?

Ephesians 1:5-7 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

I don't see that I had anything to do with it except to say yes, I believe, and that was give to me.

Not by my works of anything, which means no works, not even works of faith, my faith was dead and all I had to give God was nothing. He did it all.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul say he boasts in nothing save the Cross of Christ and he want nothing except to know Christ and preach nothing except Christ and Him crucified. Leaves us pretty much nothing.

Saved by God through Christ In the Holy Spirit, by the Choice and Power and Mercy of God's Love.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:

This is what man did and does about proof.
Mar 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

This is what Christ did in Paul.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

That included Paul's perfect Law keeping and His Faith and all that he thought he was before he met Jesus Christ, not of his choosing or asking for proof.

Just like God said let there be Light and there was light.

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

God commands the light of Jesus Christ to shine in our hearts. Not our commands or faith or anything we do, it is all Him.

This is what "shine" means: to beam, i.e. radiate brilliancy (literally or figuratively):--give light, shine. This is what God does so we can believe unto salvation.

Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Jeff wrote,

"""Jesus was prooven to be real by witnesses(apostles) that were also prooven to be real in history.
The Jesus was prooven to be God by His word which is the evidence."""

Why then was He crucified?

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

Not by my works of anything, which means no works, not even works of faith, my faith was dead and all I had to give God was nothing. He did it all.

[b]Ephesians 2:8-9[/b] [color=990000]For by grace are ye [u]saved[/u] through faith; and [u]that[/u][/color](Salvation) [color=990000]not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/color]

Gal 6:12 is not about faith.
Phl 3:18 is because they set their minds on the things of the earth.

This is what man did and does about proof.

This is what Christ did in Paul.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Phl 3:8 Is about his earthly credentials, not about faith.

That included Paul's perfect Law keeping and His Faith and all that he thought he was before he met Jesus Christ, not of his choosing or asking for proof.

What was Paul being knocked to the ground and blinded?
God revieling himself so that Paul could [b]know[/b] Who he was persecuting.
That was proof, so paul would choose not to persecut Jesus and follow Him.

Just like God said let there be Light and there was light.

Just like God said let there be Light and there was light.

So also hath the light to shine in our hearts.

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is not the light of the Law, for the law killed us and makes sin glaringly visible in the presence of the Nature of God, which the Law is telling us who God is. This light is the knowledge of the Glory of God, who is Christ Jesus. God is the One who causes this brilliance to shine in our heart, This is the Faith of the Son of God.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Whose faith saves those that believe and receive our Faith of Jesus Christ that gives us Faith in Jesus Christ?
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We receive the Holy Spirit by the Faith that has been given us by the Father that is in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Without the Spirit of Christ by the Faith that has been given us to believe by the Father, which is the Faith of Jesus Christ by the Power and sealing of the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus.

The assurance that our faith unto salvation is the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:10-15 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saintss.

After hearing the word of truth is when our faith is heard of because it is now the Faith of Jesus Christ given by the Father and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

In the Faith of the Son of God.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

2 Corinthians 4:10-13 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same Spirit of Faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Believe by His Spirit of Faith, therefore we speak.

Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Just like God said let there be Light and there was light.

So also hath the light to shine in our hearts.

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is not the light of the Law, for the law killed us and makes sin glaringly visible in the presence of the Nature of God, which the Law is telling us who God is. This light is the knowledge of the Glory of God, who is Christ Jesus. God is the One who causes this brilliance to shine in our heart, This is the Faith of the Son of God.

The Law is used to show us that we cannot uphold the righteous standards of God and we are incapable to do it and that we need to be changed from within in order to accomplish the Law. The Law not only shows us that we are spiritually dead, it also shows us why we need to be changed, to become spiritually alive most of all.

After the Law has done its job, one ends up saying, [color=990000]O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?[/color] [b]Romans 7:24[/b]

The Law is one of the witnesses that God uses to proove His truth.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those who have faith; for there is no difference,

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

We receive the Holy Spirit by the Faith that has been given us by the Father that is in Jesus Christ.

Without the Spirit of Christ by the Faith that has been given us to believe by the Father, which is the Faith of Jesus Christ by the Power and sealing of the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus.

That would not make it not up to us to be saved but up to him, therefore, we are not guilty for denying him because he didn't give us what we need to recieve Him.

After hearing the word of truth is when our faith is heard of because it is now the Faith of Jesus Christ given by the Father and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Believe by His [b]Spirit of Faith[/b], therefore we speak.

Paul uses the term "[b]spirit of faith[/b]" as saying same attitude of of the Psalmists' faith or
The "[b]spirit of faith[/b]" as saying same "common faith" as the Psalmists' faith.

This "common faith" is also the same as our "common salvation".

[b]Titus 1:4a[/b] [color=990000]to Titus, a true child according to our [b]common faith[/b]:[/color]
And:
[b]Jude 1:3[/b] [color=990000]Having made all haste to write to you about the [b]common salvation[/b],[/color]

Furthermore, as I said before, Faith is a response to God on our part based on witnesses and undeniable proofs.

Before I was saved and had faith, God was [b]prooven[/b] to me by creation, I could not deny that there was a God.
Therefore, I became a deist.

Then, God used my conscience as [b]Romans 1:18-20[/b] & [b]Romans 2:14,15[/b] sais.

I new that I could not live up to my own standard of good and I was [b]prooven[/b] to be condemned by the law in my heart.

Then, I heard that Jesus was God because He conquered death with [b]witnesses[/b] of that resurrection to [b]prove[/b] the validity of it.

Since Jesus is God, then the Bible is the Word of God and by the beliving the Word of God I reacted with confidence to trust Jesus with my life.
This is Faith that is undeniably of my own volition!

With out these witnesses and proofes, how could there be faith?
If I am to depend my life on Him, I need to know with out a doubt that He is real.
That is faith.

God did not give me my faith but gave me the proofes, evidences, and witnesses of the reality of Himself to be trustworthy.
I love the truth, therefore I accepted those things which He was made sure by.

This is how it is different. One little preposition: of Not in.

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those who have faith; for there is no difference,

[22] even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all *and on all who believe. For there is no difference; (Rom 3:22 NKJV)

[22] This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, (Rom 3:22 NIV)

KJV
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

This is what the supple difference in the New Age Translations, which everybody is apologetically defending to the end, of giving the faith of Jesus Christ over to our faith in Jesus Christ. This way of dealing with changing of the word of God is so subtle that very few know it.

Another one that is so subtle:
[16] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (Gal 2:16 NKJV)

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (KJV)

And on and on:
[20] I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (Gal 2:20 NKJV)

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (KJV)

:22 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If righteousness came by the Law that is what our Faith is depending on; I must have faith to be saved and The Faith of Christ died with Him and in vain. In other words, It is not the faith of Jesus Christ that saves us by His work and the Work of God the Father but it is our faith that saves us. So making Christ of none effect when it comes to salvation, it is all up to us. It was not Abraham's faith that imputed righteousness to him, but the Faith of God in Abraham that would give him righteousness, for Abraham's faith was dead, just like ours.

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Who made him a father of many nations?

Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be].

Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

Abraham even wanted his son out of wedlock to be the heir.

Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

God made it pretty clear that He said no, and after telling Abraham what He was going to do, God stopped talking to Abraham about it.

Genesis 17:19-22 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Saving Faith is of God not man. Believing in Jesus Christ takes and act of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and The Faith of Jesus Christ to save us unto the sealing of Christ's Spirit in to One Body, His Church, through Holy Spirit baptism.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

This is our living water baptism.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The Living Water flowing from the source and the Blood of Christ saving us by His own Faith that is birthed in us unto our new life in Christ Jesus, all new creatures in whom we live and move and have our being in Him.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

His is our all in all.

In Christ, by and of Christ Himself: Phillip

Sorry,I Edited it to add more.

dorcas wrote:

First, I take your point about the Law seeming to be endorsed by the New Covenant, but in fact, it is a whole set of different laws - many in which stoning had been required for misdemeanours - defined by Jesus, mainly, and expounded by other New Testament writers. This is clearest in Hebrews, but all the other writers help us to understand how the Law of LOVE changes everything.

(Also, we are saved by the law of faith - Rom 3:27 - not the Mosaic law or the Old Covenant law).

[b]Galatians 6:2[/b] [color=990000]Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.[/color] This is clearly love.
Romans 13:8,10, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8
And
[b]1Corinth 9:21[/b] [color=990000]to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but [b]under the [u]law of Christ[/u][/b]), that I might gain those without Law.[/color]

And again, the Law of love is the Law of Crist, which is the law writen on our hearts in the New Covenant.
[b]Mat 22:36-40[/b] [color=990000]Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[b]:37[/b] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[b]:38[/b] This is the first and great commandment.
[b]:39[/b] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[b]:40[/b] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/color]

[u]However, it says:[/u]
[b]Romans 3:20-22[/b] [color=990000]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[b]:21[/b] But now the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[b]:22[/b] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:[/color]

Therefore, the [b]Law of Faith[/b] is trusting in christ to fulfill the Law in you.

However, if we are in Christ, we naturaly fulfill the Law because of [b]Romans 10:4[/b] [color=990000]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness [sake] to every one that believeth.[/color]

Further, I don't think you can take 'saved by hope' out of its context.
Faith, is the substance of things which God has spoken into your and my heart, which did not exist prior to His word. It is for these that we hope, until we see them fulfilled in our experience.

Hope is confidence in a future event; the highest degree of well founded expectation of good; as a hope founded on God's gracious promises; a scriptural sense.

[b]Hebrews 6:18-19[/b] [color=990000]that through two unchangeable things, in which it was not possible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, those having fled to lay [u]hold on the [b]hope[/b] set before us[/u],
[b]:19[/b] [u]which [b]hope[/b] we have as an anchor of the soul[/u], both certain and sure, and entering into the inner side of the veil[/color]

Furthermore, please don't twist what or how the Bible exlains what faith is.
It is not

Faith, is the substance of things which God has spoken into your and my heart, which did not exist prior to His word.

What is the Substance of that Hope?

It is the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do.

What is the the "evidence" of things not seen?

The evidence are these new aspects of our life that become [u]actions or works that give a [b]testimony of Christ in you[/u][/b].

Furthermore, what is it which you said, "did not exist prior to His word"?

It is the Truth of reality in which Gods Word speeks of that we must take hold of.

What is it that did exist prior to His word?
Lies, that do not line up the reality of the Truth.

Anyone can hope on a thought or idea, but have no assurance it will come to pass. That's the difference when God speaks, thus creating faith.

What creates this Faith is us acknowleging the Truth and acting on it!

Can you say the prophetically recorded heart of the subject in these words, could not possibly be Christ, because this man exercises 'faith' and 'hope'?

Furthermore, can you Please explain how Jesus, knowing He is God, needs Faith even though [b]He knows[/b] for fact [b]that He is[/b] that which we have faith in?

One can not have faith or hope for what one already is or has!

dorcas wrote:

Please accept that some of us came a different route.

and had to receive the gift of faith in order to believe, or, responded to words which God Himself spoke into our hearts through the mouths of preachers, as well as by reading His written word.

Christinyou wrote:
This is how it is different. One little preposition: of Not in.

You must compair with the Greek!

[b]Romans 3:22[/b] [color=990000]δικαιοσύνη δὲ Θεου διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησου Χριστου εις πάντας καὶ επὶ πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας· ου γάρ εστιν διαστολή· [/color]
[u]This is what you should compair to[/u]:
righteousnesse now God through faith Jesus Christ into all haveing-faith not for is distinction

[b]Translatiion:[/b]
but the righteousness God through faith Jesus Christ to all and upon all the ones believing, for there is no distinction.

This is what the supple difference in the New Age Translations, which everybody is apologetically defending to the end, of giving the faith of Jesus Christ over to our faith in Jesus Christ. This way of dealing with changing of the word of God is so subtle that very few know it.

Some Bible versions are “essentially literal” translation that seeks as far as possible to capture the precise wording of the original text and the personal style of each Bible writer. As such, its emphasis is on “word-for-word” correspondence, at the same time taking into account differences of grammar, syntax, and idiom between current literary English and the original languages. Thus it seeks to be transparent to the original text, letting the reader see as directly as possible the structure and meaning of the original.

In contrast to the the literal translations, some Bible versions have followed a “thought-for-thought” rather than “word-for-word” translation philosophy, emphasizing “dynamic equivalence” rather than the “essentially literal” meaning of the original. A “thought-for-thought” translation is of necessity more inclined to reflect the writers meaning of the Scripture.

Furthermore, has your neighbor ever heard of the word "Raca"?

This word is not in todays English vocabulary.
No one would guess that it means "a senseless, empty headed man".

We need a Word that people of today can understand.
Know one would understand anyone today that speeks like the KJV.
Hear is a statement that a "KJV only" advocate would use to defend his point useing the language of the KJV:

"Sith the noise of the bruit of this school hath reached to thee-ward, we trust that our concourse liketh you well-particularly those who blaze abroad that there is error here.

Whoso setteth thee against us-whoso saith we offend all-speaketh leasing. We be not affrighted, but withal, we are straightened in our bowels. We knoweth well that what thou wilst hear straightway wilt fast close up thy thoughts. With som we be abjects, some have defied us; but there has been no daysman betwixt us. They subvert the simple!"

So, please do not give an argument on translations for this thread, they hold no water, only give logical statements that are scriptural.

If righteousness came by the Law that is what our Faith is depending on;

In other words, It is not the faith of Jesus Christ that saves us by His work and the Work of God the Father but it is our faith that saves us.

So making Christ of none effect when it comes to salvation, it is all up to us.

It was not Abraham's faith that imputed righteousness to him, but the Faith of God in Abraham that would give him righteousness, for Abraham's faith was dead, just like ours.

Please understand.
It was his faith that moved him to obay God, and his obediance is what prooved his Faith to be alive.

[b]James 2:20-24[/b] [color=990000]But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?
[b]:21[/b] Was not our father Abraham justified by works offering up his son Isaac on the altar?
[b]:22[/b] You see that faith worked with his works; and out of the works the faith was made perfected.
[b]:23[/b] And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness to him;" and he was called, Friend of God.
[b]:24[/b] You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only.[/color]

What is the works but our own choice to obey?
How can we obey without choosing to acknowlegr that God it True?

Saving Faith is of God not man. Believing in Jesus Christ takes and act of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and The Faith of Jesus Christ to save us unto the sealing of Christ's Spirit in to One Body, His Church, through Holy Spirit baptism.

"Believing in Jesus Christ takes" loveing the Truth after Holy Spirit to convicts of sin!

The Object of our faith is in or on "Jesus Christ to save us unto the sealing of Christ's Spirit...."

dorcas wrote:
He was not successful against sin because He was God, but because He did not have a sinful nature as a man

He did have the "sinful nature" as a man:
[b]Romans 8:3[/b] [color=990000]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, [u]God sending his own Son in the likeness of [b]sinful flesh[/b], and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/u][/color]

All that this "sinful flesh" is, is that flesh is [b]able to sin[/b]

AND He obeyed God, in the same way as you and I are called upon to obey Him.

[b]Hebrews 5:8[/b] [color=990000]though being a Son, [u]He [b]learned obedience[/b] from what He suffered[/u]
[b]:9[/b] and having been perfected, He came to be the Author of eternal salvation [u]to all the ones [b]obeying Him[/b][/u],[/color]

We have Faith that is from proof and of evidence & witnesses, therefore We obey.

Jesus has Knowlege from being and seeing that which we hafve faith [b]in[/b], therefore, He obeyed.
He obayed as an example to us for our faith.

Who's faith made Adam choose Satan over God?

Who's Faith makes us choose Christ over satan?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Who put the word of faith in the preacher?

Where did the word of faith come from?

The "word of faith" means the Gospel of God or the Word of God.

What are we born again by?

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ and He is whom we are born again through His glorious Faith which endureth forever, that we believe in God.

1 Peter 1:20-21 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

What makes us believe in God? That w,hich was foreordained before the foundation of the world and is manifest in these last times? It is by Him Him who we believe. His Faith the Author of our faith.
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If Jesus Christ is the Author of our faith and also the finisher of our faith, our faith unto salvation can only come through and by Him. It is Christ in whom we live and move and have our being. How can man's faith accomplish this?

In Christ: Phillip, by His Faith
In Christ: Phillip, believing in His Father by His Faith that our faith and hope might be in God, Who by Him (Jesus Christ) do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead,

By Him, By Him, By Him.

dorcas wrote:

You said 'He did have the "sinful nature" as a man'. [b]This is not my belief[/b] and I don't believe it can be substantiated from scripture. Had His nature been intrinsically sinful, as ours is, He could not have been the Substitute for our death for sin. To do that, He had to be sinless, spotless, perfect (etc). The balance of these attributes is expounded by the writer of Hebrews, chapter 7:

Christinyou wrote:
Who's faith made Adam choose Satan over God?

Who's Faith makes us choose Christ over satan?

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Who put the word of faith in the preacher?
Where did the word of faith come from?

quote]What are we born again by?
By incorruptible seed and by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We read or hear the Bible and recieve knowlege for us to process in our minds and act upon in the knowlege that it is relyable, that is what faith is (faith comes by hearing.)

What makes us believe in God?

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If Jesus Christ is the Author of our faith and also the finisher of our faith, our faith unto salvation can only come through and by Him. It is Christ in whom we live and move and have our being. How can man's faith accomplish this?

Same way by knowing the truth and loving it enough to put your life on it.

In Christ: Phillip, believing in His Father by His Faith that our faith and hope might be in God, Who by Him (Jesus Christ) do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead,

Because of Him(Jesus)we do have faith in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Because of Jesus in that he is the image of the invisible God and the express image of his person(Col 1:15, Heb 1:3)
Not because He gave us faith.

It never sais [b]from[/b] Jesus we believe or have faith.

I've proven through logical reason that Jesus never had or has faith, yet you stubbornly hold to the though that he does.
Why won't you yield to common sense?

We are not so depraved that we can not believ from our own volition.

dorcas wrote:

Logic,

You have stated you believe the written word of God, and that your own faculty for judging truth and love (which I acknowledge is a spiritual component within all men) has made you trust in what you judge to be the written truth.

I have another question, now.

Truth does not come from with in ones self, but with out, that is why we need the bBile for our basis of truth.
Otherwise, all we have to use for a basis of truth is our own heart wich is decietful and desperatly wicked.

Do you believe in the spoken word of God?

If it is anything els, we must bounce it off the writen Word of God for validity.

Just like Faith, truth is in ones self but it did not come from ones self. The only truth is by the Holy Spirit when it comes to the things of God. Unless you are born again you cannot know or see the things of God.

John 3:2-17 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This is the finish of the birthing. Christ in you the Hope of Glory. John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Our birth, by Christ being born again in the believer is that finish, that all things including all our deeds might be wrought in God the Father by Jesus Christ in you.

When we have the life of Christ born again in us, we have received all that Christ is and All the Father intended Him to be as the Son of God, God in His providence and Plan before the foundation of the world would make every believer akin to His Nature. Man without Christ in Him cannot even begin to understand the things of God and expressed by The Son telling the highest law keeper in the Land of Israel, that he must be born again. I think this choice is so significant that He Chose to give Nicodemus this truth, that is who He came to preach that the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand, that is, I Jesus am the Christ and I am Here, I can give you new birth if you believe, and yet they could not. Not only because they would not, but also because they could not. They did not have the Truth from above given them by the Holy Spirit and by the birthing, the Nature of Faith and Truth as their new nature. That is what we have now, by the Holy Spirit, The only One who brings what Christ has said to remembrance and the Only One who is the Sealer of our Birth, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. A new nature, the Nature of the Son of God birthed in us, and we now can truly understand the truth of God and become son's of God By the Power of God in Truth by Jesus Christ. Certainly not by the same power that Nicodemus had, Christ making this plain in saying, "you are a ruler in Israel and you don't know this", we could not either, if it were not for th Holy Spirit through the Truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, ever understand or believe either.

John 3:31-36 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. And what He hath seen and heard, that He testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony. He that hath received His testimony hath set to His seal that God is true. For He whom God hath sent speaketh the Words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Only God gives to the Son, and only the Son gives to the Father, we can not give anything except not seeing life. The Holy Spirit must give each one the Faith to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Son must give the Life to the one that believes by God the Father birthing the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ in the believer, then are we truly son's of God born again of water, the water Life, Jesus Christ Himself and the Spirit, The Spirit of Christ by the Holy Spirit sent by the Father at the Son's prayer request.

We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth. It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ.

After all this, then we can Love God because He first Loved us by Jesus Christ the Son.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Just like Faith, truth is in ones self but it did not come from ones self. The only truth is by the Holy Spirit when it comes to the things of God. Unless you are born again you cannot know or see the things of God.

As with our faith in Christ that He will be able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy(Jude 1:24)
If I don't know that He is able, I won't put my trust in Him.

Our birth, by Christ being born again in the believer is that finish, that all things including all our deeds might be wrought in God the Father by Jesus Christ in you.

That is the opposit of the truth, why are you twisting the scritures?
Christ is not born again in the believer, but the truth is that we were born again in in Christ!

that all things including all our deeds might be wrought in God the Father by Jesus Christ in you.

When we have the life of Christ born again in us,

we have received all that Christ is and All the Father intended Him to be as the Son of God, God in His providence and Plan before the foundation of the world would make every believer akin to His Nature. Man without Christ in Him cannot even begin to understand the things of God and expressed by The Son telling the highest law keeper in the Land of Israel, that he must be born again.

I think this choice is so significant that He Chose to give Nicodemus this truth, that is who He came to preach that the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand, that is, I Jesus am the Christ and I am Here, I can give you new birth if you believe, and yet they could not.

That is because he didn't undersatnd yet.
[b]Matthew 13:23[/b] [color=990000]But he that received seed into the good ground [b]is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it[/b]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]
Understanding is apart of knowlege of the truth.
For example:
If you don't understand how 7x7=49 do you realy know it?
No,, all you have is a memorization.

A new nature, the Nature of the Son of God birthed in us,

There it is again. Why do you say "birthed"?
We are birthed in Him and He comes upon us and fills us.
We are birthed in Him, He is not birthed in us!

we can not give anything except not seeing life.

The Holy Spirit must give each one the Faith to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God

We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth. It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ.

Quote:

"Why do you think that our beleveing is haveing something to do with our rebirth?"

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

John 3:10-11 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Israel had 100's of years to believe and they did not.

This is the reason we must believe that God is the One that has given those that believe the the Holy Spirit of Truth and on top of that The Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself. Without this baptism into one Spirit, all would be just like Israel seeking their salvation by works, which God cannot accept as the Faith it takes to know the Kingdom of Heaven.

John 3:12-15 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

You pick out very small pieces of what I am saying and using scripture to back it up and then you ask your antagonistic nostics questions and lead back into a works salvation. Use the whole context of the questions you ask.

Example: You chose, "We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth. It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ." This is true that this is what I wrote, but this is what proceeded it.

Only God gives to the Son, and only the Son gives to the Father, we can not give anything except not seeing life. The Holy Spirit must give each one the Faith to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Son must give the Life to the one that believes by God the Father birthing the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ in the believer, then are we truly son's of God born again of water, the water Life, Jesus Christ Himself and the Spirit, The Spirit of Christ by the Holy Spirit sent by the Father at the Son's prayer request.

Plus much much more. Proof your question by the scripture I gave.

John 3:31-36 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. And what He hath seen and heard, that He testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony. He that hath received His testimony hath set to His seal that God is true. For He whom God hath sent speaketh the Words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This is what follows our arrogance of trying to make salvation our works.

John 3:12-15 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

How shall we believe? Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jhn 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

We believe only because Christ wants us to believe. Without the Holy Spirit none would be born again and none would believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unless the Father gives them revelation by His Spirit.

Acts 13:39-42 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

1 Peter 1:20-25 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

By Whom do we believe? By Him, By Him, By Him
Who is the Seed Rebirthed in us. Jesus Christ in you.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
[u]We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth.[/u] It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ.

Why I meant to ask "why [b]don't[/b] we have something to do with our rebirth?" because you said there is nothing to do with it.
However, Faith has something to do with it and that is our choice in believing.

You pick out very small pieces of what I am saying and using scripture to back it up and then you ask your antagonistic nostics questions and lead back into a works salvation. Use the whole context of the questions you ask.

Example: You chose, "We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth. It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ." This is true that this is what I wrote, but this is what proceeded it.

What ever proceedes a false statement is still false.

dorcas wrote:

Logic said

Faith has nothing to do with works salvation.

Except that you resist the thought that faith has been created in you through listening to the word of God, and you INsist upon it being YOUR faith. I think this is what Phillip means by 'works salvation'.

dorcas wrote:

If it was created, there would be no need to choose, it would just be there.

On what basis can you say there would be no need to choose?

Just because it is there, doesn't mean you have to exercise it.

Furthermore:
[b]James 2:20[/b] [color=990000]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[/color]
Therefore, according to you, if Christ put faith in us, it is dead faith untill we exercise it.

That is rediculous.

dorcas wrote:
Logic said

That is rediculous.

If only.

Many people are locked in fear, and never get out.

dorcas wrote:
On [i]my[/i] believing the gospel, I was dependent on the faith God created in me, and gifted to me. The most my human faith could do, was believe that His faith was able to make salvation work for me. That's my testimony.

Why did you italicize the word "[i]my[/i]"?

How is your faith created by God?

Isn't it by giving you the knowledge that you need to know for the way of salvation and to comprehend it?

Given by, you hearing the Word.

When one comprehends the way of salvation, one acts upon the knowledge he receives by hearing, this is faith.

Please define and make a distinction of "human faith" and "His faith"

When you say, "His faith was able to make salvation work for me."

This is what You are saying in reality:
His believing was able to make salvation work for me.

Faith and believing are the same word in Greek.

When you read, "the faith of Jesus"

the Greek says, "the belief of Jesus"
[b]2Thes 2:13[/b] [color=990000]But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and [b]faith/belief[/b] of the truth:[/color]

Please use the E-sword on KJV+ and point to the Strings No.#4102

How is belief created in you, and gifted to you?

By showing you the Truth and you just believing.

It is your responsibility to believe.

Also, I agree with Phillip, that it is faith of a different quality from the faith a human being brings to bear.

I tell you the truth, I am not trying to be argumenitive, but I can not understand how you think that belief is a gift given and created in us when one believes by there own volition.

It is no different in any other kind of belief accept the object of the belief is God and it pertains to eternity.

I believe in George Bush, I never met but I believe he is real.
I put my trust in him to do what he does.
Who gave me this faith? George Bush didn't, I chose to acknowlege the fact based on the evidences and witneses.

I believe in Jesus, I never met but I believe He is real. I put my trust in him to do what He does.
Who gave me this faith? God didn't, I chose to acknowlege the fact based on the evidences and witneses.

The only difference is the scope of what the belief is in, not the belief it’s self.

English-Strong's Index: faith

G1680 elpis (1)
from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence:--faith, hope.
OF FAITH (1)
Heb 10:23

G3640 oligopistos (5)
from 3641 and 4102; incredulous, i.e. lacking confidence (in Christ):--of little faith.
O THOU OF LITTLE FAITH (1)
Mt 14:31
O YE OF LITTLE FAITH (4)
Mt 6:30; 8:26; 16:8; Lu 12:28

G4102 pistis (239)
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
AFTER THAT FAITH (1)
Ga 3:25
BY FAITH (21)
Ac 15:9; 26:18; Ro 3:28; 5:2; 11:20; 2Co 1:24; Heb 11:4,5,7,8,9,17,20,21,22,23,24,27 ...
FAITH (141)
Mt 8:10; 9:2,22,29; 15:28; 17:20; 21:21; 23:23; Mr 2:5; 4:40; 5:34; 10:52; 11:22; Lu 5:20; 7:9,50; 8:25,48; 17:5,6 ...
FOR THE FAITH (2)
Php 1:27; Jude 1:3
IN FAITH (3)
Ro 4:19,20; Tit 2:2
IN THE FAITH (5)
Ac 14:22; 16:5; Ro 14:1; Col 1:23; 1Pe 5:9
OF FAITH (1)
Heb 12:2
OF FAITH (24)
Ac 6:5,8; 11:24; 14:27; Ro 3:27; 4:13; 10:8; 12:3,6 ...
OF THAT FAITH (1)
Ro 4:12
OF THE FAITH (3)
Ro 4:11; Eph 4:13; 1Ti 3:9
THE FAITH (31)
Ac 3:16; 13:8; 24:24; Ro 3:3; 4:16; 1Co 16:13; 2Co 13:5; Ga 1:23; 2:16,20; 3:23; Eph 3:12; Php 3:9; Col 2:7,12; 1Ti 1:2 ...
THROUGH FAITH (3)
Heb 11:3,11,28
TO THE FAITH (2)
Ac 6:7; Ro 1:5
WITH FAITH (1)
Heb 4:2

Do you realize that there is only two references to Faith in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 32:15-21 But Jeshurun (Israel)waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no ((((faith.)))) They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

And; Habakkuk 2:1-4 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved. And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by His (((((faith.)))))

Is not upright in him - The construction is that of a condition expressed absolutely. Lo, swollen is it, not upright is his soul in him. We should say, "His soul, if it be swollen, puffed up, is not upright in him." (Christ)

The source of all sin was and is pride and Christ had none. It is especially the sin of all oppressors, of the Chaldee, of antichrists, and shall be of the antichrist. It is the parent of all heresy, and of all corruption and rejection of the gospel. It stands therefore as the type of all opposed to it. Of it he says, it is in its very inmost core ("in him") lacking in uprightness. It can have no good in it, because it denies God, and God denies it His grace. And having nothing upright in it, being corrupt in its very inmost being, it cannot stand or abide. God gives it no power to stand. There is no pride in Christ, that is why He is the only one who can be the Gospel and Receive and Give the Gospel and those that hear and believe by "His Faith."

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 3:25-27 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

God Himself says the faith of the old testament is not of Him and must be of Him to become the Children of God and to be baptized into Christ and to put Him On.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by His (((((faith.)))))

[b]Philippians 3:9[/b] [color=990000]And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the belief of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by beliveing:[/color]

[b]Galatians 3:25-27[/b]
[color=990000]But after that belief is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by belief in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.[/color]

God Himself says the faith of the old testament is not of Him and must be of Him to become the Children of God and to be baptized into Christ and to put Him On.

And I never will, it takes the Holy Spirit and the Faith of Jesus Christ to confirm the truth.

In the Faith and the belief of Christ: Phillip

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith

Christinyou wrote:
And I never will, it takes the Holy Spirit and the Faith of Jesus Christ to confirm the truth.

I have a beliefe of Jesus, But it still does not make any sence.

Nobody in my church nor other christians accept for you & a few others see the way you explian it.

it takes the Holy Spirit

What is truth but reality?

Do you know that you accualy said, "In the belief and the belief of Christ".

Please answer these that would said:
How is belief created in you, and gifted to you?

How is your faith created by God?

Please define and make a distinction of "human faith" and "His faith"

The Holy Spirit does not have to use common sense that is based on what man thinks. The Holy Spirit uses truth. I fought with faith for 25 years and did all I could do to make God pleased with me. I had a dream 30 years ago and when the dream was revealed to my understanding 25 years later, what I could see see was complete in Christ and not what I did or thought.

The dream was a tunnel with a light at the end and knowing the light was God I started running toward the light. The faster I ran the dimmer the light became. Then 25 years later When I read Gal 2:20, the dream was revealed in its truth. When I gave up running and sat down and just looked at the Light, it started to get brighter. The More I Read that it was the Faith of Jesus Christ I live my life by. the more I was able to receive the strength of the Light and the warmer the light got. The more I believed what the Holy Spirit was revealing to me about the Light the more I could see that it was not what I could do, or believe, I was already saved by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. There was nothing I could do beyond that belief and that was not of my own doing even in believing.

Faith began to become my life and the more I believed the more Faith I received, and none of this was in any way had anything to do with what I was doing. It became brighter and brighter and is still growing in warmth and brightness, that is the Faith of Jesus Christ in whom I now live my life. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is now my life and it is becoming more and more vibrant to who I am, not to what I do, for it is no longer I who do it but Christ who is in me, and the less I become the more He becomes and the closer I become to God the Father, I believe and know I am a son of God by His Grace through Faith that has come by the power of the Holy Spirit that has been given in me forever and by the Spirit of Christ that has been birthed in me, with the Seed of Christ as my Parental Seed from The Father, I am truly becoming a son of God and will always grow in the Faith and Knowledge of God the Father through the Son forever.

In the Faith of Christ by the Seed of the Father through the Power of the Holy Spirit in me: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
the more I believed the more Faith I received

I read your satatment as, "the more I believed the more belief I received"
or
"the more faith I have the more Faith I received"
or
"the more I believed the more belief I received"

Faith began to become my life

Belief began to become my life?

Please define faith that you are talking about since it is not logical nor "use common sense" as you put it.

As I have said the Faith of Jesus Christ gives birth and infuses The Old man faith I had, which would believe the sun will come up tomorrow, with His Faith that builds Line upon Line and Precept upon Precept into the Life of Christ that is birthed in me. Again and Again:
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If I was crucified with Christ, I died to sin as He did and took away the sin of the world. If I died and yet I still live, what am I living to?
If the born again are baptized into Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and resurrected with Him, what are we resurrected to? We are baptized into His suffering, we are baptized into His death.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

If all that we are is Christ, this must include The Faith of Jesus Christ birthed in us and that is how we are to live our lives, by His Life in us.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One Faith, that is the Faith of Jesus Christ by whom we life our new lives.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Christ has Faith, God has Faith and the Holy Spirit is the One that operated in that Faith to renew our Minds to the Mind of Christ, always being renewed from now and throughout eternity.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.
In other words, don't judge another person and say that it is by the Faith of the Lord of Glory. He can judge and if He wishes He can deal with anyone as He chooses. We unless we have complete confidence in Christ and that His Faith is working in us can we get the log out of our own eye and help a brother get the comparative tiny sliver our of his eye. Seek the Lord and His Faith, which is the Kingdom of God and all things of God will be added unto us.

I can say nothing else regarding this that will give you any assurance that the Faith of Christ is the Faith we live by. Seek His Face and He will reveal this truth unto you.

In Christ: Phillip

You build an argument on a preposition that isn't even in the greek.

You don't head to the sound wisdom of reality.

You do not know a man can think on his own enough to choose what is true.

You think that God needs faith.

You twist Scripture to fit your theology instead of conforming your theology to the Scriptures.

I can say nothing else regarding this that will give you any assurance that the Faith of Christ is the Faith we live by. Seek His Face and He will reveal this truth unto you.

I have assurance that the believing of Christ is the belief we live by.

Why don't you Seek His Face for some common sence that is based on reality and He will reveal real truth unto you.

I am for sure that you love Jesus with all your heart, However, to think with your emotions and your heart instead of with your mind is not a good way to live by.

Emotion is a good servant, but a lousy master.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith the Son God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Take out of and the truth does not change but if you put ev; en, in, it most certainly does. 1722. en
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:--about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (... sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

The new translations put this "in" which does change the faith Son God, to imply that it is our faith in the Son of God. Yes a preposition does make a great difference. Leave "in" out and it is still the Faith "OF" The Son of God.

Christ has Faith, God has Faith and the Holy Spirit is the One that operated in that Faith to renew our Minds to the Mind of Christ, always being renewed from now and throughout eternity.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith "in" God without effect? This one even makes it more pressure on the preposition "OF". This on would not make any sense if it were not "OF"

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

You can take out the of hear and put in, in its place but when you get to unto it brings the faith Christ at the point of entry from Him.
"unto"
1519. eis
Search for G1519 in KJVSL
eiV eis ice

a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.)

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

This one: Take out the of, it becomes Faith Him, but Him is autos: 846. autos
Search for G846 in KJVSL
autoV autos ow-tos'

from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: Him.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

This one shows the faith of Christ as the righteousness which is of: ek; God by Faith, that is Faith Christ.

I am not thinking with my emotions, I just don't believe I can change your mindset. This is just truth not emotions. Yes I believe in the Faith of the Son of God that has been birthed in me. I also believe that you are a brother in Christ and we will know the truth of this Faith together on that Day.

In Christ: Phillip

Please don't try to teach me greek, I am well into my 10th year in studying Koine

Christinyou wrote:
Christ has Faith, God has Faith and the Holy Spirit is the One that operated in that Faith to renew our Minds to the Mind of Christ, always being renewed from now and throughout eternity.

This does not check with reality.

Why would God need faith when He is what faith faith is in or on?

How does the Holy Spirit in the faith to renew our mind?

The renewing of your mind is our responsability because Paul tells us to be transformed by doing it in order to prove what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

By taking head to the Scriptures is how we renew our mind.

I am not thinking with my emotions, I just don't believe I can change your mindset. This is just truth not emotions.

I am sorry, but trueth always lines up with sound logic and you have proven that you don't think that way.

dorcas wrote:
Hi Logic,

I'm sorry again to cut to the chase here, but I feel sure you have, in the above quotes, given a true assessment of your position, in which your thoughts on faith are entrenched.

John said
We love Him because He first loved us.

There is no getting away from the fact that He died because He loved us. This is one reason it is called His passion.

By showing us the truth that we acknowleged and acted upon.

Is it logical the God put another complete Person in the believer? "That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Is it Logical that the Holy Spirit is the only one that can teach us the things of the Kingdom of God? "He will teach you all things whatsoever I have said"

Is it logical that the faith we life by is the Faith of the Son of God? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Take out the of if you want, it still means the same thing, but don't insert "in".

In Christ by the Faith Christ, not by Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Is it logical the God put another complete Person in the believer? "That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Is it Logical that the Holy Spirit is the only one that can teach us the things of the Kingdom of God? "He will teach you all things whatsoever I have said"

Is it logical that the faith we life by is the Faith of the Son of God? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It is not logical that God would have faith.
It is not logical that faith would be a "substance" that God puts in us.

Please, Please, Please answer these questions:
[b]1:[/b] How is belief created in you?

[b]2:[/b] Why cant one have his own faith?

[b]3:[/b] Please define and make a distinction of "human faith" and "His faith"?

[b]4:[/b]How does God have faith?

[b]5:[/b] What is the faith that God has?

[b]6:[/b] What or who does God have faith in?

[b]7:[/b] How des Galatians 2:16 prove that faith isn't from our own volition?

[b]7:[/b] What do you call this statment:
Acknowlinging the truth and acting apon it.

[b]8:[/b] what is the diference between faith in 2 1/2 foot of ice to walk on and faith in God to live by?

dorcas wrote:
Logic asked

6: What or who does God have faith in?

His Word - the Logos.

Faith is in something that you have no physiscal proof in.
However you belive it by proofs juch as witnesses and evidences.

You say that God has faith in His word, but that is a knowlage based on physicalproof for Him, because they are one.

In the same way, when He speaks truth to us, the receptivity of our heart to His Word enables Him to create faith in us.
This is not 'our' faith, this is His faith.

Please, answer the other questions :-)

dorcas wrote:

There is nothing to stop you having your own faith. All I can say is about my 'own faith' - that it was useless as a stepping stone to my salvation.

Why don't you think that when you ackowlege the truth and act apon it is you doing it yourself?

I could not find assurance, based in 'my' faith. For that reason, I asked God to give me faith.

Why couldn't you find assurance, based on your own belief?
Isn't that what one must do?

3: Please define and make a distinction of "human faith" and "His faith"?

Phillip and I have been doing that all through this thread. You have placed barriers of your own definitions in the way of receiving our testimony as valid truth. I can't do anything about that.

4:How does God have faith?

Apart from His own word to individual believers, which creates faith in them because He believes it will

much as Jesus believed Lazarus would rise from death and come out of the tomb, or, Jairus' daughter would rise, when He spoke to her

Jesus did not [b]believ[/b] Lazarus would rise from death and come out of the tomb, HE [b]knew[/b] he would.

He has given His word over centuries to the patriarchs and prophets, and has demonstrated His ability to make these words come to pass.... Is that not His faith

And no, because that is our acknowleging the truth of HIS Word that is given to HIS patriarchs and prophets and acting apon it the trust that we have that it is true.

5: What is the faith that God has?

I believe this creative speaking and doing is part of His nature - of who He IS!

[b]Hebrews 11:1[/b] [color=990000]Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.[/color]
In other words faith is substantial evidence of our hope.

Faith is not substance of things that we have already and evidence of things which we already see.

Just as I suspectrd, you don't know what faith means

Perhaps we have to agree to differ on this point.....

I give real definitions that all people use and you always use your made up definitions that nobody uses in real life.

Faith and belife are synonyms.
You cant make faith any other than belife in something that can't be physicaly seen or the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to that which is a standard.
It is even "trust". You cant make faith any other than trusting in something that can't be physicaly see hear or touch.

You are makeing faith out to be something totaly diferent that what it is known to be.

Faith is in something that you have no physiscal proof in.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'physical proof'.

It is like you only belive that there is a heaven, but you can not see, hear, or touch it.
You don't [b]know[/b] because you have no 'physical proof' of your belife.

It is like hope. Hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for?([b]Rom 8:24[/b])

The change that occurs in my spirit, affects my body - literally lifting me up to Him - when I exercise the faith which I receive through hearing from Him. I call that physical proof.

If you were a Gentile and new nothing about the Israel of God except they would kill you if you went to the inner court. You new nothing about the old testament because God Himself had set aside for Himself, a people of Israel, How would you have received Paul and what he said about Jesus Christ. If you separate and rightly divide the word of truth you will see there are two different Gospels, one the Gospel of Grace through Faith. Thehe other the Gospel is of circumcision and works and mixing circumcision with believing in Jesus Christ, which Paul preached against and was killed by those that did not believe in Jesus either and killed Him. That is what Paul said in Acts 28, the Gospel of Christ will go to the Gentiles. If you look through the first 12 or 13 chapters of Acts, it is the Gospel of Peter and the 12 apostles, unto the Kingdom for Israel, from 13 on it is Paul and the Gospel to fulfill the Word of God, Grace upon Grace and that is what Paul preached his whole ministry. Paul preached first to the Jew then to Kings then to the Gentile. If you carefully separate what and where and how Paul did preach you will see this as his whole method of preaching until after Acts 28, then you will see in all his letters, it is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, and he never deviates from this format. 1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

2Cr 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Who is this given to in the Church the Body of Christ? To all those that would believe, without the Wall of Partition being anymore separating circumcision from uncircumcision. This is what will happen to Israel, the same in Paul's first miracle, Acts 13: 6-12, A Jew named Bar Jesus the sorcerer was blinded for a while because he tried to confront Paul and Barnabas who was with the Gentile whom wanted to hear Paul concerning the Gospel of the Faith of Christ, whom he had come to hear about. Paul blinded the sorcerer so the gentile could receive the Gospel, and he did. The same thing has occurred for the Church today: Acts 28:27-28 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Logic ask how do we receive the word?

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

In full context: 1 John 2:20-29 But ye have an unction from (Jesus Christ) the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue (((in the Son,))) and (((in the Father.))) And this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I (Paul) written unto you concerning them (unsaved Jews) that seduce you. But the (anointing) which ye have received of Him (Holy Spirit) abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing (Holy Spirit) teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.(Jesus Christ) And now, little children, abide in Him; (Jesus Christ)that, when He (Jesus Christ) shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him (Jesus Christ)at His coming. If ye know that He (Jesus Christ)is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him. (Jesus Christ) Amen

This is how we receive or righteousness, wisdom, sanctification, justification, Faith and our Life. It is all of The Holy Spirit by, through, and in Jesus Christ and the Father who are birthed in us, that is God the Father who has changed our very nature, to Christ Nature, not be as Christ or a Christ, but Like Christ the opposite of the Lie of Satan to Adam.

Genesis 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and (((ye shall be as gods,))) knowing good and evil.

Believing by the quickening and anointing of the Spirit, by the Unction of Jesus Christ and the Father, a new son in Him: Phillip

dorcas wrote:
Logic asked

Why don't you think that when you ackowlege the truth and act apon it is you doing it yourself?

Because one is supposed to be abiding in Christ, with His life flowing through the Holy Spirit. One's life become totally dependent on [i][b]His[/b][/i].

An acknowledgement of the truth - yes, I 'do' that. But, what has 'the truth' done to me, by making me aware of it? Isn't Jesus Christ the Truth? And isn't acting upon His revelation to my understanding, simply my response to what HE has done?

Why couldn't you find assurance, based on your own belief?

I think those are questions for the Lord, not me. Nothing I did gave me 'assurance' of any kind of eternal quality, such as I have now.

I don't just make the definitions up, they are actual definitions that are set in our onw language.

Ah! Again you are using the human standard to judge God's word, when really, you should be breaking a leg (figuratively speaking), to learn how HE uses our language, and to receive His way of phrasing things and speaking..... because, it is in understanding His word to us through the light of the Holy Spirit, that we begin to glimpse the eternal with clear eyes.

God doesn't believe anything

This is an unscriptural stance, which I have disputed in a previous post. Faith/belief, is the most natural attribute of God, compared with Man, and Jesus also had to have faith - a belief that His Father's word was reliable. This applied for the whole of His ministry, including His death and resurrection.

Jesus didn't 'know' anything, when He was dead.

Jesus did not believ Lazarus would rise from death and come out of the tomb, HE knew he would.

Please read this story again, and tell me why then, Jesus PRAYED to His Father before He called Lazarus out?

Personally, I think it takes faith on God's part to commit His word to fallen man (even under the influence of the Holy Spirit) and leave it hanging for centuries before fulfilment sometimes, and despite all that man did in the interim, still bring His word to pass in real time, eventually.

Faith is defined as belief that is not based on physical proof.

In Romans 1 (below), Paul clearly says that faith in God comes from recognising His existence through what He has made (the universe), and that the partial rejection of this PHYSICAL proof of his existence, will attract God's wrath.

I'm sorry, I meant to clairify the diference between "physical [b]proof[/b]" & "physical [b]evidence[/b]"

"Physical [b]proof[/b]" needs no belief becaus eone is there or sees that which is in question;
"physical [b]evidence[/b]" needs a beliefe because one does not see nor was there to proove that which is in question.
We have no "physical [b]proof[/b]" that there was a flood; that would nessesitate us being there to show the Earth being flooded.

Hopwever, "physical [b]evidence[/b]"
is in the layers of strata in the ground.
Kent Hovind gives "physical [b]evidence[/b]",
Noah had "physical [b]proof[/b]"

Inturn, we have no "physical [b]proof[/b]" that there is a God but we have "physical [b]evidence[/b]" as you have shown in In [b]Romans 1:18-22[/b]

God(Jesus) needs no beliefe because He is the "physical [b]proof[/b]" in what we only have "physical [b]evidence[/b]" in.

you are making faith far more complicated than it is. Faith is a rational response to God's revelation of Himself. In a way, this is what you are meaning by your use of the phrase 'common sense'. But, you are not making 'common' 'sense' when you continue to suggest faith can be based only in an [b]irrational[/b] belief in things which cannot be seen or verified.

I say Faith is a rational belife in the evidence and witnesses that God has give us in His Word and Apostles and Prophets.
They can be verified but not seen. Since they can not be seen, we must only believe; because seeing is knowing.

Again I would say 'on the contrary' - the revelation of God to my understanding is both physical and spiritual, and I have the witness in myself, that God's record of His Son is true. (1 John 5:10) And that is not by faith, except that I can't prove it to you

[Faith] ...is like hope. Hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for?(

I believe that hope can help us towards faith, in certain situations, but some hope is much more to do with an exercise of faith - such as in the operation of the gifts of the Spirit - for instance, for a healing.

We need faith in what we don't see and touch but only have evidence & witnesses to.
We need Hope in what we wait for.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

(in Ro 1:17): "By this faith in God, each righteous person begins to live piously, righteously, holily, peacefully and divinely, and advanceth therein, since in every tribulation and misery, by this faith and hope in God he sustains, strengthens, and increases this life of the soul. He says then, "the just lives by faith," i. e., the unbelieving and unrighteous displeases God, and consequently will not live by the true, right, peaceful and happy life of grace, present righteousness, and future glory because God is displeased with him, and He places his hopes and fears, not in God, but in human beings and man's help and in created things. But the righteous who believeth in God shall live a right, sweet, quiet, happy, holy, untroubled life, because, fixed by faith and hope in God who is the true Life, and in God's promises, he is dear to God, and the object of His care.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up - literally, swollen

Is not upright in him - The construction is probably that of a condition expressed absolutely. Lo, swollen is it, not upright is his soul in him. We should say, "His soul, if it be swollen, puffed up, is not upright in him." The source of all sin was and is pride. It is especially the sin of all oppressors, of the Chaldee, of antichrists, and shall be of the antichrist. It is the parent of all heresy, and of all corruption and rejection of the gospel. It stands therefore as the type of all opposed to it. Of it he says, it is in its very inmost core ("in him") lacking in uprightness. It can have no good in it, because it denies God, and God denies it His grace. And having nothing upright in it, being corrupt in its very inmost being, it cannot stand or abide. God gives it no power to stand. The words stand in contrast with the following, the one speaking of the cause of death, the other of life. The soul, being swollen with pride, shuts out faith, and with it the Presence of God. It is all crooked in its very inner self or being. Paul gives the result, Heb 10:39, "if any man draw back, my soul hath no pleasure in him." The prophet's words describe the proud man who stands aloof from God, in himself; Paul, as he is in the Eyes of God. As pride which is swollen in nature cannot be straight, it is clean contrary to itself. That the soul should be swollen with pride and yet upright in it own faith? Its moral life being destroyed in its very inmost heart, it must perish. Thus its faith perish, unless quickened by God that the Faith of Christ begin its work in the believer.

In all, through Abraham, it was one and the same principle. According to Ge 15:6, "His belief was counted to him for righteousness," though the immediate instance of that faith was not directly spiritual. In this was the good and bad of Israel. Ex 4:31 : "the people believed." Ex 14:31 : "they believed the Lord and His servant Moses." Ps 106:12 : "then believed they His word, they sang His praise." This contrariwise was their blame De 1:32 : "In this ye did not believe the Lord." De 9:23 : "ye rebelled against the commandment of the Lord your God, and believed Him not, nor hearkened to His voice." Ps 106:21, Ps 106:24 : "they forgat God their Saviour; they despised the pleasant land, they believed not His word." And God asks, Nu 14:11, "How long will it be, ere this people belove Me, for all the signs which I have shown among them?" Ps 78:21-22 : "anger came upon Israel, because they believed not in God, and in His salvation trusted not." Isa 53:1, "Who hath believed our report?" he premises as the attitude of his people toward him, the Center of all faith - Jesus. Yet still, as to the blessings of faith, having spoken of Him, Isa 28:16, "Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation, a stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone," he subjoins, "he that believeth in Him shall not make haste."

So it had been the keynote of Habakkuk to his people, "Ye will not believe when it is declared unto you." (((((((Here he is told to declare contrariwise the blessing on belief. "The just shall live by his faith.")))))))) The faith, then, of which Habakkuk speaks, is faith, in itself, but a real, true confiding faith. It is the one relation of the creature to the Creator, unshaken trust. This faith may vary in character according as God reveals more or less of Himself, but itself is one, a loving trust in Him, just as He reveals Himself. Lap. (in Ro 1:17): "By this faith in God, each righteous person begins to live piously, righteously, holily, peacefully and divinely, and advanceth therein, since in every tribulation and misery, by this faith and hope in God he sustains, strengthens, and increases this life of the soul. He says then, "the just lives by faith," i. e., the unbelieving and unrighteous displeases God, and consequently will not live by the true, right, peaceful and happy life of grace, present righteousness, and future glory because God is displeased with him, and He places his hopes and fears, not in God, but in human beings and man's help and in created things. But the righteous who believeth in God shall live a right, sweet, quiet, happy, holy, untroubled life, because, fixed by faith and hope in God who is the true Life, and in God's promises, he is dear to God, and the object of His care.

"This sentence, 'the just shall live by faith,' is universal, belonging at once to Jews and Christians, to sinners who are first being justified, as also to those who are already justified. For the spiritual life of each of these begins, is maintained and grows through faith. When then it is said, 'the just shall live by his faith,' this word, his, marks the cause, which both begins and preserves life. The just, believing and hoping in God, begins to live spiritually, to have a soul right within him, "that is Christ in you the hope of glory: whereby he pleases God; and again, advancing and making progress in this now his faith and hope in God, therewith advances and makes progress in the spiritual life, in rightness and righteousness of soul, in the grace and friendship of God, so as more and more to please God." Pride estranges the soul from God, makes it self-sufficing, that it should not need God, so that he who is proud cannot come to God, to be by Him made righteous. So contrariwise, since by His faith doth the righteous live, this must be equally true whether he be just made righteous from unrighteous, or whether that righteousness is growing, maturing, being perfected in him.

This life begins in grace, lives on in glory. It is begun, in that God freely justifies the ungodly by that faith, accounting and making him righteous for and through the blood of Christ; it is continued in that faith which worketh by love; it is perfected, when that faith and hope are swallowed up in love, beholding God. In the Epistles to the Romans Ro 1:17 and the Galatians Ga 3:11 Paul applies these words to the first beginning of life, when they who had before been dead in sin, began to live by his faith now acquired in Christ Jesus who gave them life and made them righteous. And in this sense he is called "just," although before he comes to the faith he is unjust and unrighteous, being unjustified. For Paul uses the word not of what he was before the faith, but what he is, when he lives by that faith. Before, not having faith, he had neither righteousness nor life; having faith, he at once has both; he is at once "just" and "lives by his faith." These are inseparable. The faith by which he lives, is a living faith, Ga 5:6, "faith which worketh by love." In the Epistle to the Hebrews, Heb 10:38, Paul is speaking of endurance in the faith, once received, whose faith is not shaken by the trial of their patience. They who look on beyond things present, and fix their minds steadfastly on the Coming of Christ, will not suffer shipwreck of their faith, through any troubles of this time. Faith is the foundation of all good, the beginning of the spiritual building, whereby it rests on The Foundation, Christ. "Without faith it is impossible to please God," and so the proud cannot please Him. Through it, that is faith, is union with Christ and thereby a divine life in the soul, even a life, Ga 2:20, "through faith of the Son of God," holy, peaceful, self-posessed Lu 21:19, enduring to the end, being "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Excerpts from Albert Barns and Sword Searcher software.

Not my faith, but kept by the Power of God through faith. If it is my faith then my faith supersedes the Power of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Not my faith, but kept by the Power of God through faith. If it is my faith then my faith supersedes the Power of God.

How does your faith supersede the Power of God?

When you believ God, you please Him and respond to His power.

He also says that [b]you[/b] must have believe that he is, not, "He must give you belief that he is"

[b]Hebrews 11:6[/b] [color=990000]But without believing it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must Have faith that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.[/color]

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by His faith.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

From "faith to faith", "the just shall live by His faith", "kept by the power of God through faith."

If by this I am depending on my faith I am usurping the power of God which He says I am kept in faith and from faith to faith, by the Power of God through the Faith of Jesus Christ that is born again in me, along with everything else pertaining to salvation in whom, "we live and move and have our being.

Galatians 5:5-6 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

This Love is Agape Love and it can only come from God through Christ Jesus. This Faith which works by Agape Love can only come from Jesus Christ. That is why God told Paul to stay in Corinth, because God said, "He had much people in this city". These people had already been prepared to receive. "the faith" that Paul had to say about Jesus Christ and the Gospel of Grace by Faith, which Paul calls many times, "the faith".

Acts 18:10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

Faith, earthly unto death, Faith heavenly unto salvation and life in Christ. One quickened by God unto saving faith, the other not quickened unto death.

In the Quickened Faith of God in Christ: Phillip

Have a blessed Christmas.

Christinyou wrote:
If by this I am depending on my faith I am usurping the power of God which He says I am kept in faith and from faith to faith, by the Power of God through the Faith of Jesus Christ that is born again in me, along with everything else pertaining to salvation in whom, "we live and move and have our being.

You are also taking scripture out of context [b]again[/b] as I have shown you already for this verse:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by His faith.

You are not usurping the power of God which He says you are kept in, you are only useing that which you are responcible for.

If we must choos to belive, it means that we must choose to have faith and responsible to have it.
If God must give you "His faith" to belive, it is not your responsability to believe.

Therefore God can not condemn you for not haveing what He did not give you in order to be saved.
Inturn, He would be unjust to have you sent to hell for not choosing to believe because you couldn't because He didn't give you His faith.

Faith, earthly unto death, Faith heavenly unto salvation and life in Christ. One quickened by God unto saving faith, the other not quickened unto death.

Paul calls many times, "the faith".

Furthermore, being obedient to "the faith"(Act 6:7) is another term for being obedient to the "way"
Act 18:25,26, 24:14.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, His soul which is lifted up is not upright in Him: but the just shall live by His faith.

Philippians 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Jesus depended on God for all that He was including His Faith, even though He has the Faith of God, He chose not to depend on His own Faith but the Faith of His Father in everything He did. Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by His faith. Even Jesus was marveled in the faith that was going to go to the Gentiles, in which twice Jesus saw this faith that was to come, which was previewed in the Centurion and the Woman of Faith in Christ by revelation of the Father and Gift of Faith that would be in Jesus Christ even before salvation of the Birthing of Christ in the believer and Grace abounded by Faith and that not of themselves. Matthew 8:10-12 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Why for the same reason He marveled at the faith of the Centurion He also marveled at their unbelief.

Matthew 15:25-28 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. This Faith was given for Jesus to call only two Gentiles great in faith, that all Israel did not have.

In Christ: Phillip

You are an obstinate person that can not understand sound judgment and factual reasoning.

You will not acknowlege the truth when spelled out to you.

You hold to sentiment rather than reality.

I wonder if you will ever yeild to the common definitions and the terms that are in use with real life and all men that have a vocabulary that the dictionary is founded on.

Hi Logic, Merry Christmas and may God richly bless you in this Season of Christ's birth the Savior of the World.

If man's faith could save him, why did God send Jesus Christ to the Cross and birth Him in the new believer, "Ye must be born again".

You base your faith on Abraham's righteousness being counted to us as faith. Well we are still in Abraham's lack of faith in what God said, and the covenants and promises that were promised to him, which are not fulfilled and have been put aside until the Throne of David is under a New King, Jesus Christ. The only promise that has been fulfilled is the Seed, which is Christ and that promise showing the substitutionary death of Christ on the Cross for our sins, when it came as a substitution by the offering of Isaac and God providing the sacrifice of a ram in Isaac's place. That is Abraham's Faith. The rest of his faith and his wife's faith, I don't think God would make the same offer. Ishmael is still trying to overcome the son of promise. In fact they are the ones that attacked on 9/11. Also Iran, Iraq, and all Islam trying to usurp Isaac's line to Christ. The son of promise was not Ishmael the promise to Abraham and His wife who laughed when God told them she would bare a son. When it took to long in her unbelief and Abraham's also, the wife provided her own solution and gave Abraham her concubine, whom Abraham had sex with outside of marriage and ask God to look at Ishmael before God. God said He would make a great nation of Ishmael, and He did, Islam. Everybody wonders why God loved Jacob and hated Esau, will this is the reason. Ishmael being the reason for God's hatred, by him being outside of the promise of Isaac, the promised son.
Genesis 28:9 Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife. Ishmael was not the promised seed, but Isaac. Esau chose a wife from Ishmael, whom God would not accept as the promised son Isaac. It is plain Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Ishmael and Esau are not in the lineage of Christ.

This is what Abraham's faith did, and the whole world is still paying for it. I would much rather have the only faith that will change man and give him salvation that is the Faith of the Son of God Jesus Christ, by His propitiation, by His blood, by Grace through Faith which is not of ourselves.

Romans 3:24-31 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

By faith is every mans measure of Faith, through Faith is the Faith of the Son of God in Christ Jesus.

Oobstinate, ok, sentimental probably, but Salvation is of Jesus Christ and my faith would never get me there, but it will when it is revealed at the appearing of Jesus Christ, for He increases my Faith by His Faith from Faith to Faith. Christ has been made unto us everything including faith. I am righteousness by the Son of God, so how can my faith get me righteousness, Christ redeems me, it is His Faith the Redeems me, how could earthly faith give redemption, I am sanctified by Christ in me, who is brought me back to what God intended me to be form before the beginning, or if you will "before the foundation of the World in Christ Jesus." Wisdom Is Christ, The Holy Spirit is teaching us this Christ that is born again in us, that we will have the true nature of God, we are in Christ Jesus, like Christ, not as Christ or a god which is the lie from the beginning from Satan.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I will glory in the Lord by His Faith that is in me.

In Christ; Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Hi Logic, Merry Christmas and may God richly bless you in this Season of Christ's birth the Savior of the World.

If man's faith could save him, why did God send Jesus Christ to the Cross and birth Him in the new believer, "Ye must be born again".

You base your faith on Abraham's righteousness being counted to us as faith.

This is what Abraham's faith did

By faith is every mans measure of Faith, through Faith is the Faith of the Son of God in Christ Jesus.

Oobstinate, ok, sentimental probably, but Salvation is of Jesus Christ and my faith would never get me there,

but it will when it is revealed at the appearing of Jesus Christ, for He increases my Faith by His Faith from Faith to Faith

Christ has been made unto us everything including faith.

All I know is that HE has been made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption(1Corinth 1:30).

I am righteousness by the Son of God, so how can my faith get me righteousness,

Actualy, you are righteous, not righteousness.
Furthermore, since you are righteous, your faith is righteous.

Christ redeems me, it is His Faith the Redeems me,

It is HIS blood that justified you and redeemed you!(Romans 5:9)
[b]1Peter 1:18-19[/b] [color=990000]Forasmuch as ye know that [b]ye were[/b] not [b]redeemed with[/b] corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[b]:19[/b] But [b]with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:[/b][/color]

how could earthly faith give redemption,

1 Peter 1:19-25 But with the precious blood of Christ , as of a lamb without blemish and without spot : Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you , ((((((Who by him do believe in God ,))))))

By (dia);= 1223. dia
Search for G1223 in KJVSL
dia dia dee-ah'dia

a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) ... fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.

that raised him up from the dead , and gave him glory ; that your faith and hope might be in God . Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren , see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently : Being born again , not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible , by the word of God , which liveth and abideth for ever . For all flesh is as grass , and all the glory of man as the flower of grass . The grass withereth , and the flower thereof falleth away : But the word of the Lord endureth for ever . And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you .

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

These are just a few of the 224 times, in Christ is in the New Testament and most of them by Paul.

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Quote: KJV English Concordance for "in Christ"
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The words in Christ occur in 224 verses, including 77 exact phrase matches shown first:

Not me but, dia; "by" Him and ev "in" Him

In Christ; by Him: Galatians 3:22-28 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one ((in)) Christ Jesus.

1722. en "in"
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest: Hebrews 4:8-11 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath (((ceased from his own works,))) as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. We have ceased from our own works, so the work of Faith must be His work in us. 1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope ((in)) our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [His] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
By (dia);= 1223. dia
Search for G1223 in KJVSL
dia dia dee-ah'dia

Not me but, dia; "by" Him and ev "in" Him

There is nothing about "His faith" in this verse.

There is also no need for you to quote all these verses because what ever you quote, I can always correct your theology; however because of your stuborness, you will never yeild to the truth of the context of the Word.

Your always twisting the Scriptures to fit your Theology, instead of letting the Scriptures form your Theology.

1 Peter 1:21 Who by Him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

"By Him", Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by (hearing,) and hearing by the word of God. Who is the Word of God. Jesus Christ.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will (hear it.)

In Christ: Phillip